Re: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse
On Wed, 12 May 2004 23:17:20 -0500, Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Fool wrote: From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] What would a left-wing libertarian be like? What sort of positions would one take on various issues? I'm curious. Julia I have a friend who is an engineer at NASA who could be considered a left-wing libertarian. (Interesting how many libertarians work for government organizations.) He is anti-government and anti-tax and pro-civil liberties. When there is not a Libertarian candidate he will now normally vote for the Democrat. His dislike of the Christian moralist busybodies who comprise most of the Texas GOP is more than his dislike of what he thinks is the too quick to tax Democrats. Since the decline of fiscal responsibility in the GOP he seems to be even favoring Democrats over a Libertarian candidates in close races. I am libertarian on social and personal issues, just not on economic. I feel that the Libertarian Party refuses to consider the loss of liberty economic power causes which can be greater than the loss of liberty caused by government power. Arianna Huffington might be considered another left-wing libertarian. People may not remember that Arianna Huffington started out as a prominent Republican commentator because of her libertarian views - which she thought helped those less fortunate. She became disillusioned that the GOP leaders only wanted sound bites that their policies helped those with lower incomes. Gary Denton Notebook - http://elemming.blogspot.com Easter Lemming Liberal News Digest http://elemming2.blogspot.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Yay!
Vajpayee will resign this evening as BJP has managed to secure only 184 seats. Congress should be heading the next govt. It already has 216 seats and needs 54 more seats to be in the majority. BSP, allied with Congress, has 52 seats... Ritu GCU Thrilled To Bits ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Neanderthal
Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 03:58 PM 5/11/04, Deborah Harrell wrote:
Perhaps I should have written what it made me
think of: a short story or article about how
vampires
are the result of a viral infection... :)
It's been done . . .
Yes, I found that idea fascinating -- it tied in
nicely with the notion that certain medical conditions
have lead to various myths and legends. Frex
werewolves (and perhaps partially vampires) are
thought by some researchers to have been inspired by
sufferers of a type of porphyria; symptoms include
skin that blisters with sun exposure,
irrational/violent behavior, an appetite for
redmeat/blood (there's a defect in heme metabolism),
and severe abdominal pain that can cause the patient
to writhe about in agony.
Debbi
whose younger brother parodied Yesterday with
Leprosy ('I'm not half the man I used to be' etc. --
sick, but funny; Hansen's disease is now thankfully
controllable and quite rare)
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Re: Warhorses
I wrote: I found some more interesting sites, and will try to find my books at home (many still packed away). Fun! :D Well, I found my picture references at home, but _no_ primary sources for the text was given (usually this author is meticulous about appending her sources). And the on-site references I glanced at Tues nite looked good -- until I read the URL today, which indicates that it refers to the Crimean War -- hardly applicable! (But it's interesting reading for the horse or cavalry enthusiast - here they are:) http://www.silverwhistle.co.uk/crimea/cavalry3.html http://www.silverwhistle.co.uk/crimea/cavalry6.html [Note that there are some errors in horsemanship here, but it's worth reading anyway.] So I'm going to have to change 'revolution' WRT cavalry tactics to 'sea-change'...does that sit better, Damon? `:} A couple of previous statements also need to be modified: where I spoke of 'antiquity...Andalusians' I should have written 'Iberians,' which includes Andalusians, Lusitanos, and Alter-Reals. The native Spanish horses crossed with oriental stock _became_ 'jennets;' they were not jennets before the Moorish additions (the word apparently derived from the Zenetes, a Moorish tribe). Debbi who had to cancel riding plans yesterday and today as a spring snowstorm rolled in and hasn't left yet, although it is diminishing __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse
At 08:45 PM 5/12/04, Andrew Paul wrote: From: Gautam Mukunda [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] No conspiracy. Just a lot people who think alike. Those biases affect their coverage. How many evangelical Christians do you think report for the New York Times? For CNN? Does that bias their coverage? A very high proportion of the population of the US - something over a third - is evangelical Christians. I'd be shocked if the equivalent proportion is 5% among elite news organizations. Something around 40% of Americans identify themselves as conservative. What do you think that proportion is at the Washington Post - 10%? I'd be surprised if it's even 5%, actually. So, the people who are trained to investigate and understand things, by the best universities in the country, given lots of time and money to do so, and undiluted access to real information, and the people actually making the decisions, end up having a left-wing bias (in your eyes at least) Couldn't be that they are actually onto something could it? Or, it could be a self-selection effect, frex, that ECs are not generally drawn to careers in news, or at least that those who are interested in news careers are not drawn to the NYT, the WP, or CNN. For instance, some genuine believers find the cutthroat competition required to reach and stay at the top levels of pretty much any profession is at odds with their Christian beliefs about how they should treat their fellow human beings, e.g., the Golden Rule. Or maybe it reflects that it is the case in news as well as many other professions that getting a job is frequently largely a matter of knowing the right people, or IOW the people who do the hiring tend to hire people they know and who are like them, so ECs or members of any other group tend to get hired by news organizations where other ECs are already in positions of leadership, which presumably does not include the NYT, the WP, or CNN. (Note: I am not claiming that either of these explanations is necessarily the correct answer, but rather just suggesting that the same factors may affect employment in the news field as affect employment in other fields.) -- Ronn! :) ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse
-- From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: -- From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] I can tell you what John Stossel once told me - that a sign of how far to the left TV news is is that people think he's a conservative - when he is, of course, a libertarian. --- There you go again with the 2 dimensional French political axis. The reality is there are right-wing libertarians, and left-wing libertarians, but the libertarian party tends toward being right-wing radicals (much further beyond even reptiliKlan radicals). What would a left-wing libertarian be like? What sort of positions would one take on various issues? I'm curious. ACLU. EFF. The ACLU even defends scum-sucking proto-fascists like rush limbaugh. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: A Wrinkle in Time - TONIGHT
John D. Giorgis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: For those of you on the West Coast, ABC is showing a movie rendition of the Madeline L'Engle classic a Wrinkle in Time tonight I enjoyed it. I didn't remember Meg as so defiant toward the teacher or principal; am I misrembering? (It's been a number of years since I read it!) Mrs. Who was lots of fun, and well-done. Even though they're juvenile literature, I still enjoy dropping into her Meg/Vicky worlds from time to time; I reread _The Arm of the Starfish_ a couple of years ago. Debbi who hopes that the hummingbird nectar will last through this latest storm; the poor little things were shivering on the feeder this morning (and I can't safely add to it until the roof is free of ice again) __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse
--- Andrew Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Umm, I did not mean to be irritating, It was the start of a larger thought about how the right really doesn't like the media cos they don't see the need for it. You mentioned the lack of evangelical Christians in the media. They would report the Truth, not the truth. The right doesn't need the media cos its either all written in a book some bloke wrote 2000 years ago, or look, don't worry your pretty head about that stuff, just leave it to old Papa Bear to look after you, trust me, I will... You might want to think about the implications of what you just said on several levels. First, I would say that the twentieth century suggests that the right is, at worst, no less anti-democratic than the left. The history of, say, Russia, China, and Eastern Europe, does not suggest that those on the right are more inclined to tell people to trust in authority. Second, are you suggesting that everyone has difficulty with getting past their perceptual biases? If so, congratulations, you've just agreed with me. The intellectual homogeneity (not any sort of conspiracy) of the elite media and its effect on coverage is exactly my point. Alternately, you could be suggesting that there's something about evangelical Christians that makes them uniquely unable to see past their perceptual biases. That strikes me as pretty bigoted. Now bigotry against Christians is pretty common on this list and among leftist elites in general, so that wouldn't shock me, but it's still bigotry. If you believe that, what would you do about it? Forbid evangelical christians from working in the media? In practice - although not formally - we're not far from that position right now but it strikes me as quite unhealthy. Do you think it's actually a good thing? I never suggested that all business leaders and the military were right wing. I would not be so simplistic. In the case of the American military, if you did suggest it, to first order you would be correct. WalMart, great saviour of the American Poor ! Halleluiah ! Praise the Checkout ! Lucky they are saving them, cos some of the monopolistic practices that these huge purchasing conglomerates wield is making plenty more of them too. Farmers get 20c in the $ on retail prices. And its getting worse. But then you need a lot of markup to pay for all that advertising, to sponsor the news shows I guess. Ahh it's a lovely vicious circle. I don't object to Capitalism. In a balanced world it's a great idea. When this world is balanced, and competition actually works as a tool that really, in a holistic sense, benefits the consumer, rather then keeping them brainwashed on cheap DVD's, I will fully support it. For now I treat it with the cautious respect it deserves. Andrew Indeed, let's praise Wal Mart. In my lifetime (again) no one has done more than Sam Walton to make sure that the American poor and middle class can get inexpensive, high-quality food and clothing. For that his company has been demonized. Wal Mart has done more to improve the lot of the American poor than any government program that I can think of. As for brainwashed on cheap DVD's [sic], well, what gives you the right to decide what holistic[ally] ... benefits the consumer? Are _you_ brainwashed on cheap DVDs? Why then do you think they are? Maybe they want cheap DVDs. I know I do. I wish I lived near a WalMart so I could get some of them. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
FW: [Larryniven-l] Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the worldFrom the Larry Niven list: George A A bit too long to post. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0512-13.htm ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Huntsville Forbes #8 Best Place 2004
- Original Message - From: Steve Sloan II [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 5:52 PM Subject: Huntsville Forbes #8 Best Place 2004 I'm proud to see that Huntsville, Alabama is ranked number 8 in Forbes' Best Places for Business. Not bad at all, considering that it has the smallest population in the top 25 list, at only 354,000 people. Other Brineller homes are also on the list, including Houston at number 15, and Austin at number 3. http://www.forbes.com/2004/05/05/04bestplacesland.html Best Places For Business Edited by Kurt Badenhausen, 05.07.04, 7:00 AM ET The best metro areas to launch a business or a career often revolve around universities that offer a diverse, educated work force and, especially when they are far from big cities, relatively low costs. Such regions--Raleigh, Austin and Ann Arbor among them--are also attractive places to live, judging by the patterns of migration. I found it interesting that the most leftist city that I'm familiar with, Madison WI, is listed number 1. Its interesting to compare this to the discussion of the need to set a healthy, conservative climate to attract business. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Re: right-wingers favorite company Wal-Mart fined for Clean Water Act violations
On Wed, 12 May 2004 23:27:21 -0400, Matthew and Julie Bos [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 5/12/04 11:08 PM, The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The fine was the largest civil penalty ever against a company for storm water runoff violations. Officials said they hoped the settlement with the world's biggest retailer would set an example for smaller companies. I read this as first we screw the big guys, then we will go after the little guy. To plagiarize the diamond industry Because precedence is forever. With this ruling in their back pocket the EPA can fine anybody who is putting up a building with a parking lot. I will now have to add to my list of structures that have lawsuits attached to every proposed construction...nuclear power plants, petroleum refineries, and Wall Marts. If evil could be branded, its emblem would be the Wal-Mart logo. You don't get out much do you? Matthew In order for the Bush EPA a little mercury might be good for you to fine them the violations had to be pretty egregious. I shop at Wal-Mart, but I recognize how they drive down wages here and abroad. I also recognize that lower income families are prime beneficiaries of Wal-Mart low prices, #1 on Google for Liberal News Easter Lemming Liberal News Digest http://elemming2.blogspot.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Huntsville Forbes #8 Best Place 2004
On Thu, May 13, 2004 at 08:47:08AM -0500, Dan Minette wrote: I found it interesting that the most leftist city that I'm familiar with, Madison WI, is listed number 1. Its interesting to compare this to the discussion of the need to set a healthy, conservative climate to attract business. I've always found those best places surveys amusing but useless, because of the noise. If you follow the cities from year to year, their ranking jumps around wildly. I suspect the ratings are meaningless, but even if they do really change that fast because of actual city changes, it is still mostly useless unless you plan to move every year... -- Erik Reuter http://www.erikreuter.net/ ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse
From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] The Fool wrote: -- From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] I can tell you what John Stossel once told me - that a sign of how far to the left TV news is is that people think he's a conservative - when he is, of course, a libertarian. --- There you go again with the 2 dimensional French political axis. The reality is there are right-wing libertarians, and left-wing libertarians, but the libertarian party tends toward being right-wing radicals (much further beyond even reptiliKlan radicals). What would a left-wing libertarian be like? What sort of positions would one take on various issues? I'm curious. I'm curious as to where The Fool would place our good Dr. Brin on this spectrum: http://www.davidbrin.com/libertarianarticle1.html _ Getting married? Find tips, tools and the latest trends at MSN Life Events. http://lifeevents.msn.com/category.aspx?cid=married ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Neanderthal (was: More on the environmental movement)
More so then that a movie was made out of it, Underworld. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: What America Does with its Hegemony
Dan wrote: So, let my put forth a hypothetical. Lets assume this was done by an administration that had shown a real sucess rebuilding Afganistan, and had a very good team ready to work in reconstructing Iraq, and had laid out the real costs to the American people and gotten buy in. Lets suppose that Bush had not exaggerated the level of certainty for WMD from there are very strong indications...even French intelligence thinks so to total certainty. In this case, with proper preparation for sucess, would completing the Gulf War have been wrong?...especially since it faded into a often violated cease fire agreement instead of ending in '91. I'm a bit confused. You seem to be talking about the current struggle at the beginning of the paragraph and the first Gulf war at the end of it. But if the question is would I have supported the present war had the administration been better prepared and told the truth about its intentions and motivations, the answer is a definate maybe. I think that's the kind of thing you can't really speculate on unless you know all the details of the situation. I'll be honest with you though, Bush's interest in Iraq is too much like a bear's interest in a honey tree for me to feel comfortable with his judgement in this situation. And the fact that the UN repeatedly insisted on not acting. As Gautam said, stopping the slaughter violated international law. This brings up the obvious question: what is the value in international law when it requires us to, when asked, stand aside so genocide can occure? Are we required to follow the wishes of the UN and allow genocide to take place, or are we morally compelled to stop genocide. (I will argue strongly that the third option, getting the UN to stop genocide is often not a real option.) Some laws are just wrong. The U.N. is a flawed institution, but the idea of an impartial world governing body that can solve these kinds of problems is, IMO, a good one. We need to either fix the U.N. or create something that works. I just don't think we can expect the rest of the world to be saddled and ridden by the U.S. That said, I agree with the criticism of European nations in matters such as the Yugoslavia debacle. I agree that the US should have intervened. Do you agree, if it would have done so, it would have been dissed by a great deal of the world for imperealism? Should we have been willing to violate international law to save half a million human lives? What did the U.S. have to gain by intervening in Rwanda? If we were successful in preventing a genocide and that was our clear motive in interveneing, the success of our mission would speak for itself. If, instead of asking for another $25 B for Iraq, we put that kind of money and effort towards ending the AIDS epidemic, who could doubt our motive was pure? Only those who have dishonest motives themselves. One thing I think a lot of people don't understand. Terrorism and the war against it are not about convincing the terrorists that they are right or convincing those that fight terrorism that they are right - its about convincing those people that aren't sure who to believe who is right. Terrorists can behead a hundred Americans and it won't be as damaging to their reputation as the prison guard scandal is to us. We're the ones waving the flag of freedom and democracy and human dignity, and the scandal calls our sincerity into question. That the terrorists are murdering, gutless scumbags is not breaking news, but the prison scandal reinforces the idea that they _have_ to be murdering, gutless scumbags in order to combat this mega-power that humiliates their people. Please don't construe the above as justifying anything the terrorists do. Terrorism needs to be eliminated, but we're going about it all wrong. Win the hearts and minds of the undecided. Prove your sincerity in a manner it's difficult to question. Intervening in Rwanda with nothing to gain other than knowing we we're doing the right thing, is the kind of thing that convinces the undecided that we are sincere. Invading Iraq where our motives are more easily questioned, no matter how sincere we might be, is a much more difficult proposition. I've got to cut this off and get some sleep. Hopefully I can finish tomorrow. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Wednesday, May 12, 2004 11:17 PM Subject: Re: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse The Fool wrote: -- From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] I can tell you what John Stossel once told me - that a sign of how far to the left TV news is is that people think he's a conservative - when he is, of course, a libertarian. --- There you go again with the 2 dimensional French political axis. The reality is there are right-wing libertarians, and left-wing libertarians, but the libertarian party tends toward being right-wing radicals (much further beyond even reptiliKlan radicals). What would a left-wing libertarian be like? What sort of positions would one take on various issues? I'm curious. Hi! xponent You're Soaking In It Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Huntsville Forbes #8 Best Place 2004
- Original Message - From: Erik Reuter [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 4:47 PM Subject: Re: Huntsville Forbes #8 Best Place 2004 On Thu, May 13, 2004 at 08:47:08AM -0500, Dan Minette wrote: I found it interesting that the most leftist city that I'm familiar with, Madison WI, is listed number 1. Its interesting to compare this to the discussion of the need to set a healthy, conservative climate to attract business. I've always found those best places surveys amusing but useless, because of the noise. If you follow the cities from year to year, their ranking jumps around wildly. I suspect the ratings are meaningless, but even if they do really change that fast because of actual city changes, it is still mostly useless unless you plan to move every year... I've been following them too, for a number of years, and Madison, more often than not, has been a top 10 city. If you want to argue 1 vs. 8 being kinda random, I think that is reasonable. But, there is a reason one sees Madison regularly show up, and Texarkana not show up on that list. Dan M. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Separated at birth?
The Fool's link to Fox News, following Gary Dunn's link to the Center for Bio-Ethical Reform Through Psychological Abuse caused my eyes to notice that the icons for the two web sites are nearly identical. No conspiracy :-), just more the same-think. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [L3] Re: Warhorses
Top post: further illustrating the evils of of replying before reading all posts (I'm referring to myself here!) Damon Agretto [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [I wrote] ..la gineta style of riding, which influenced the horse cultures of the Gauchos, Charros and Llaneros. They spell it gineta. (I'd seen it as something more like jineta.) FYI this seems to be alluding to the Jinetes class of military fighting men of Spain, of lower class and equipment than a knight and IIRC drawn from the free peasantry or possibly holding fiefs as sergeants. They wore little to no armor, and were adept at horsemanship in a way and style that was different from knights and other mtd sergeants then in Europe (using short sturrups and smaller saddles, rather than in other nations, where the trend was towards longer stirrups and higher saddles, which were beneficial when fighting on horseback). Ah, that ties in well with the Moorish riding style influence/possible tribe name concept of my Arabian horse books. OK - and I'm coming at it from a horseman's perspective as well. But then is this site incorrect, WRT the Battle of Hastings? Numbers seem a little off, or rather, a little high. Willian probably had half that number. Additionally, William's knights were less than decisive. In a time when battles lasted a few hours at the most, Hastings apparently (according to the sources) lasted most of the day, from about dawn to dusk. I had wondered about the length of time for battles - even lighter horses cannot charge about for hours without becoming exhausted. Watch the way polo ponies heave after a single chukker. snipped interesting account of battle tactics OTOH, this site says they carried under 300#: Yes, I agree more with this. My sources (such as Prestwich, Contamine and Nicolle) suggest the size and power of warhorses were more for the endurance they could provide, rather than sheer lifting (or carrying) power. Additionally (to dispell more myths) a fully armored fighting man in plate armor was quite agile, and probably less burdened than a modern infantryman wearing a full pack. Sources (not to mention modern reenactors) show that a fully armored man could leap over the hindquarters of his mount and do other feats. Additionally, horse armor was rare in European armies until much later. Although there is tantalizing mentions of mail bard for warhorses as early as the late 12th C, horse armor didn't really appear to be popular (unless you count the heraldric bard of earlier times -- trappers and such -- which may have hid padded armor that was surprisingly effective against slashing blows than one would think) until the 14th C, when leather and/or steel armor was used to protect the head and chest of horses. It wasn't until a century later that full plate bard would come to use, probably starting early in the 15th C, but becoming more popular (relatively speaking) around the middle to late 15th C. I was surprised to read on one of the sites (from my L3 post) that Romans and some Oriental tribes used chainmail on their horses -- do you think this is correct? This site has some interesting articles on ancient horse cultures: http://users.hartwick.edu/iaes/horseback/intro.html Debbi Tycho And The Daisy Maru ;) __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
G. D. Akin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: FW: [Larryniven-l] Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the worldFrom the Larry Niven list: A bit too long to post. http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0512-13.htm [small excerpt] Doesnt anything socialistic make you want to throw up? Like great public schools or health insurance for all? How about Jesus Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes? Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the Earth. Blessed are the merciful, for they shall obtain mercy. Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God. And so on. Not exactly planks in a Republican platform. Not exactly Donald Rumsfeld or Dick Cheney stuff. For some reason, the most vocal Christians among us never mention the Beatitudes. But, often with tears in their eyes, they demand that the Ten Commandments be posted in public buildings. And of course thats Moses, not Jesus. I havent heard one of them demand that the Sermon on the Mount, the Beatitudes, be posted anywhere. Blessed are the merciful in a courtroom? Blessed are the peacemakers in the Pentagon? Give me a break! I don't recall reading any Vonnegut novels (though I'm sure I must have read some short stories in anthologies) - have to remedy that. Debbi who got Rob's point about the other shoe, and sadly agrees that it _will_ drop, and grimly agrees with whoever posted that it will most likely happen before the November election __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Yay!
- Original Message - From: Ritu [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 4:11 AM Subject: Yay! Vajpayee will resign this evening as BJP has managed to secure only 184 seats. Congress should be heading the next govt. It already has 216 seats and needs 54 more seats to be in the majority. BSP, allied with Congress, has 52 seats... Ritu GCU Thrilled To Bits Thrilled enough to explain it to us ignorant Americans? G xponent The Far Side Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Finding the Future
http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue368/screen3.html Finding the Future: A Science Fiction Conversation Documentary filmmakers mine science-fiction conventions to find what tomorrow may bring Shot against the backdrop of science-fiction conventions from 2000 to the present, Finding the Future: A Science Fiction Conversation explores the role of sci-fi in helping people come to terms with the present and in speculating about what might lie ahead for humanity. Primarily through a series of interviews with both science-fiction authors and fans, this documentary muses on everything from the phenomenon of fandom to the role of science and technology in humans' lives, from the history of the genre to the realization today of yesterday's science-fiction fantasies. Authors like Forrest J. Ackerman, Catherine Asaro, Ben Bova and David Brin spend a lot of time with the camera, and topics such as space exploration, communications technology, genetic engineering and the environment prove to be big issues for both authors and fans alike. But Finding the Future is also an ethnography, a chronicle and an advocacy document. Not only do the doc's makers talk about what science fiction has had to say about humankind's future, they also discuss the history of science fiction and sci-fi fandom (beginning with the first WorldCon in the 1930s; the perspective is almost exclusively American), the sociology of the SF fan and the positive role some see fandom playing in societyas a basis for community and for the furthering of knowledge and understanding. But aside from all the heady conversation and philosophical musing, there's also plenty of people in costumes, filking and other convention weirdness in this documentary, which, to non-fans, might come off as a different kind of ethnography altogetherit might even look like science fiction itself. Ambitious but rough around the edges It's not too hard to see Finding the Future as a labor of love, as a project to which those who made it and those who participated in it have devoted a lot of time and thought. The interviews this documentary contains are filled with smart people talking about interesting and complex ideas, with a balance of passion and reason in their words, and the scope of these ideas and of this documentary is immense. But this doesn't always make for great viewing, believe it or not. Combined with some fairly low production values, this ambitious film's narrative wanderings can sometimes lead to boredom with even the most fascinating of topics. The editing (the true art of documentary) ranges from sharp to inscrutableboth connections between conversations and visual inserts (i.e., science-fiction art placed over discussions of various subjects) don't always make a lot of sense. The musical score has a similar rangefrom wonderfully atmospheric to distractingly bad. The number of profound discussions of fascinating ideas this film contains, however, often succeeds in overwhelming whatever technical shortcomings it may have. As Finding the Future's more sociological or ethnographic moments reveal, science-fiction authors and fans are often highly intelligent people who have thought a lot about some of the most important issues facing our present and our future, and the community that they comprise, science-fiction fandom, is often an extremely accepting one that allows for a great amount of individual, personal expression and a great number of differing opinions. But it's in some of these cultural/ethnological/sociological considerations that Finding the Future might be seen to come up a bit short, too. It portrays the community of science-fiction fandom in a bit too uncritical or utopian a manner. Though descriptions of the average science-fiction fan are often appropriately flattering (despite some acknowledgment of issues like personal hygiene), the camera plainlybut unreflectivelyshows that the face of science fiction is overwhelmingly white, middle-class and male (though women do get a goodeven maybe disproportionateamount of representation in the film). And then there are issues like calling outsiders mundanes (a term even more potentially contemptuous and derisive than muggles). The byproducts of a strong sense of communal identityexclusion and othering (intentional and unintentional)show themselves here as elsewhere in the world. The hope is, however, as Finding the Future argues, that those who are involved in the concerns of science fiction are very well equipped to address issues like these in the future, and can do so in intelligent and fantastical ways. Finding the Future may be so close to its subjects that it falls prey to some of their failingsscience-fiction fans, like science fiction itself, can prove to be in serious need of communicating a bit more economically and a bit more elegantly from time to time. Matt xponent Brin Included Maru rob ___
Moscow 'has most billionaires'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/3710977.stm The Russian capital Moscow now boasts more billionaires than any other city in the world, according to a survey by Forbes magazine. The study also estimates that a quarter of Russia's wealth is now concentrated in the hands of just 100 people. Topping the list with an estimated fortune of $15.2bn is Mikhail Khodorkovsky, the former head of the oil firm Yukos, who is presently in jail facing charges of fraud and tax evasion. The 37-year-old oil and aluminium tycoon, Roman Abramovich, who last year bought London's Chelsea Football Club, is Russia's second wealthiest man, worth $12bn. 'New stage of capitalism' Oil and gas industrialist Victor Vekselberg, who made the headlines this year when he bought the world's second-largest collection of Faberge eggs, came in third with $5.9bn. Mikhail Prokhorov and Vladimir Potanin, co-owners of Norilsk Nickel, came in fourth and fifth with their wealth estimated at $5.4bn each. Also on the list was Mikhail Friedman, head of the Alfa Bank, Vagit Alekperov, head of Lukoil, and the fast-rising Russian entrepreneur in the aluminium sector Oleg Deripaska. Just a dozen years after the collapse of communism, the Russian capital is home to 33 billionaires, according to Forbes, while New York has just 31. According to Paul Khlebnikov, chief editor of Forbes Russia, the behaviour of Russia's richest people is changing. Russia's entering a new stage of capitalism, moving away from the shadow economy, moving away from a black-market type of mentality, towards a more civilised, transparent, open form of capitalism. Anger However, some businessmen were unhappy to appear on the list, local newspapers reported. They [the magazine] couldn't find a worse time and place... Personally the only reaction that I get from discussing personal wealth in our country is high blood pressure, one businessman told the business daily Vedomosti. Appearing on such a list is bound to make the entrepreneur a prime target for the law enforcement authorities, another businessman said. In the spring of 2003 Forbes published a list of 100 richest people in China, which, reportedly, led to some of them being arrested. Roman Abramovich, David Davidovich, Andrei Gorodilov and Valery Oif who made their fortunes at Sibneft oil company are furious at being named, Vedomosti continued. The rating has no connection with reality, the numbers are wildly speculative, the methodology used by the magazine is clouded in darkness, a Sibneft spokesman told the newspaper. xponent All Conservatives? Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Marcial Angell's perspectives on me too drugs
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Marcial Angell's perspectives on me too drugs. The former editor in chief of The New England Journal of Medicine, Marcia Angell is currently a senior lecturer in social medicine at Harvard Medical School. She disputes the pharmaceutical companies' argument that they need a high profit margin to fund the research and development of new medicines. In fact, she says, the industry piggybacks off publicly funded research at the National Institutes of Health and other academic institutions. She also argues that most of the companies' profits are not derived from new drugs, but rather from me too drugs, or imitations of drugs already on the market. This interview was conducted on Nov. 26, 2002. snipped rest I agree with much of what she says, although this is a little out-of-date WRT Medicare benefits (although how much of an impact that will make - and for how long, considering the funding fudging that occurred - is debatable). There _have_ been some head-to-head drug effectiveness trials conducted by companies, although most are done elsewhere. The other thing I want to say is, the academic medical centers are abdicating their responsibility to teach pharmacology. There is very little teaching that goes on in medical schools now about drugs, about their downsides as well as their benefits, about classes of drugs, about cost-effective prescribing of drugs. To a large extent, the academic medical centers, the medical schools, have abdicated this and left that to the drug companies to doThe salespeople are wandering the halls of almost every major hospital in this country, handing out freebies to the young doctors, telling them all about their new drugs, which, the evidence shows, the young doctors pretty quickly respond to and prescribe. And the medical centers stand back and let that happen. I can't speak to what's going on now, but when I was a student and resident, we were indeed taught to look for drug side effects, and how to read an article critically. While drug cost was rarely mentioned, medical benefits and side effects of one versus another certainly were. As for formularies, these can be very useful in terms of cost-benefit *if* there is a reasonable mechanism to go outside of the approved list. And to harp again on one of my pet peeves: people have *got* to take some responsibility for their health WRT lifestyle choices. With obesity, cardiovascular disease and alcoholism on both sides of my family, I haven't abdicated my health to the gods of McDonald's, Baskin-Robbins and Budweiser...not that it's been easy when it comes to food, because I *love* eating good food, and *despise* working out. I _have_ finally found a lifestyle that incorporates a lot of physical exercise, allowing me to indulge in dessert most days a week, and the occasional Big Mac. :) Note that of course many illnesses occur no matter how exemplary a lifestyle one leads, and whatever the genetic dice roll is what the zygote gets -- I do not in any way discount this, or the effects of upbringing, or the ravages of serious mental illness which can lead to neglect of oneself. Debbi Had A Brownie Today, In Fact, And It Was Good Maru :D __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: What America Does with its Hegemony
Doug Pensinger wrote: I agree that the US should have intervened. Do you agree, if it would have done so, it would have been dissed by a great deal of the world for imperealism? Should we have been willing to violate international law to save half a million human lives? What did the U.S. have to gain by intervening in Rwanda? Diddly squat, but that doesn't mean dedicated critics of the US couldn't come up with something. Presumably, Rwanda had something useful enough for past European imperialists to colonize the country, and the critics could use that. If we were successful in preventing a genocide and that was our clear motive in interveneing, the success of our mission would speak for itself. If, instead of asking for another $25 B for Iraq, we put that kind of money and effort towards ending the AIDS epidemic, who could doubt our motive was pure? Critics would claim the politicians who proposed it were using African AIDS victims as an excuse for taking money from taxpayers, and giving it to their buddies in the pharmaceutical companies. Only those who have dishonest motives themselves. France's dishonest motives for opposing the war in Iraq haven't hurt them so far. __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Science Fiction-themed online store . http://www.sloan3d.com/store Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Animal Invasions
They're Here -- Cicada Cycle Fascinates U.S. http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storycid=1896u=/nm/20040512/us_nm/science_cicadas_dc_7printer=1 http://tinyurl.com/3fx74 The first cicada of the season sat on the doorstep like a mutant bumblebee, with red eyes and yellow legs But, apparently alarmed by the appearance of a human, it tumbled off the shallow step, landing helplessly on its back. Its yellow legs wiggled frantically to no effect. How could anything so stupid and clumsy survive, and prosper in such huge numbers? Billions, probably trillions, of cicadas are emerging this month across the eastern United States in a monster swarm known as Brood X or brood 10. Scientists plan to study the mass coming out of Brood X to find out. Did their bizarre 17-year cycle evolve because they are such easy prey, or did it allow them to evolve into the clumsy, noisy creatures that they are? Brood X is likely to be the largest insect emergence on Earth, said Keith Clay, a cicada expert at Indiana University. Starting this week, across much of the eastern United States, from Georgia north to southern New York and as far west as Illinois, the cicadas will emerge from their 17 years of sucking on tree roots underground to engage in a two-week orgy of calling, mating, laying eggs and then dying. And things that eat cicadas, from fish and birds to dogs, will gorge on them in a mad frenzy. If history is anything to go by, their noise will drive barbecues indoors, disrupt weddings and graduations and waken children. Then they will die en masse. They rot very quickly and they smell really bad for a few days and will disappear on their own, Clay said. MORE INSECTS PER SQUARE FOOT Clay says cicadas can reach densities of up to a ton an acre, or 3,000 kg per hectare. He believes humans are altering the environment to make it more hospitable to cicadas, by creating little patches of forest that have lots of edges -- which the insects appear to prefer. Understanding cicadas could help scientists understand other animals whose life cycles are affected by human activity, including white-tailed deer and the ticks that carry Lyme disease, Clay told a news conference at the National Science Foundation (news - web sites), which sponsors his work. Cicadas are notable not only for their vast numbers, but also the noise they make. Different species have different calls, says University of Connecticut biologist Christine Simon. (One species) sound like flying saucers from a 1950s science fiction film, Simon said. Another species sounds like somebody took water and threw it into hot fat. It is a loud, sizzling noise, she said. The thumb-sized insects are found in many countries around the world but the dramatic periodical cicadas of the genus Magicicada are found only in eastern North America. There are seven known species with 17- and 13-year life cycles. Simon believes the 17-year cicadas evolved when the 13-year cicadas, for whatever reason, developed a four-year dormancy period. She also believes some dramatic climatic disturbance since the last Ice Age 10,000 years ago favored the development of the 17-year cycle. The cicadas locked in the behavior. I think it's just an accident that they became periodical, Simon said. Scientists agree the mass emergence of billions of bugs has allowed the cicadas to survive even though just about anything will eat them. We prefer the term 'predator foolhardy' to stupid, Simon said. But she notes not all their behavior is overly bumbling. For instance, when a male calls a female his buzz takes one tone, and the female makes a flicking sound to answer during a lull. The male's call changes substantially after that. He'll start pawing her front legs, she said. His mechanical-sounding whir will change again, to a kind of chuckling. While he's doing that, he'll mate with her, Simon said. * State warns Floridians to watch for giant African land snails http://www1.naplesnews.com/npdn/florida/article/0,2071,NPDN_14910_2881199,00.html Agricultural officials want Floridians' help in eradicating any giant African land snails that may have invaded the state because the pest is a threat to people and plants. The snails, which grow up to 8 inches long, have been found recently in Midwestern pet stores and schools, which did not know the animals' dangers, the Florida Department of Agriculture said Wednesday. We must quickly determine whether these giant African land snails are already in our state and if so, eradicate them as quickly as possible, Agriculture Commissioner Charles Bronson said. The snails can carry a parasite that causes a type of meningitis that can be spread through eating the mollusks or being infected by their secretions. The snails are also known to eat at least 500 different types of plants, officials said. It is illegal to import the snails into the United States. They are native to
RE: Neanderthal (was: More on the environmental movement)
Nick Lidster [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: More so then that a movie was made out of it, Underworld. I presume you mean about a virus causing vampirism...hmm, have to see if I can rent that! Debbi who admits to having a bit of a thing for vampires-struggling-to-overcome-their-bloodlust... ;} __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: [L3] Re: Scouted: Protecting Creation on Earth Day
Gary Denton [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: snip I had posted this before: DDT was not banned. http://www.malaria.org/inthenews.html There was a proposal to ban it entirely in December, it failed becuase of the poor countries who still use it for malaria control. Why use DDT? It can be highly effective for several years in killing mosquitos. (Eventually mosquitos more immune to DDT predominate.) Alternatives are about 50% more expensive. Why not use DDT? The World Wildlife Fund and Physicians for Social Responsibility, among many others, indict DDT chillingly: as a carcinogen, a teratogen, an immunosupressant, that stays in biological systems and concentrates as it moves up the food chain. It was responsible for almost wiping out some species of birds in the United States and measurable quantities were being detected in mother's milk. The treaty on banning persistent organic pollutants such as DDT decided to make an exception for malaria control. However, some people, ahem, have decided to make this an issue to bash environmentalists. For a paper from both sides before the treaty vote see here: http://bmj.bmjjournals.com/cgi/content/full/321/7273/1403 Thanks for the post; I think I hadn't yet read yours when I responded -- one of the cardinal sins on Brin-L! grin Debbi who still has over 250 posts to read, and may never get to resond to some as she'd like __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fox news: Iraq Torture Scandal: 'morally superior racism'
The Fool wrote: The Idiocy of right-wing torture apologists is truly sickening: http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,119529,00.html Many TV networks, including Fox News, deemed the pictures [of the earlier murder and desecration of four Americans in Fallujah] too shocking to air. Fox also heavily censored a videotape of torture sessions carried out by Saddam's regime. I guess even Fox has its share of liberals who didn't think that the pictures supported their agenda. Oh wait: the piece goes on... In retrospect, that may have been a mistake. Without showing the charred bodies of Americans dangling in ignominy, or the lopped off-arms of justice Saddam-style, how can we judge the pictures we are now clucking over? Yeah, and while we're at it, maybe Fox should start broadcasting pictures of combatants killed in Iraq? The truth is that Fox (and arguably more liberal news organizations) withhold or edit the most disgusting or disturbing photos and videos because they know damned well that people will only watch so much of that before they are disgusted with the broadcaster and (what they fear most) change channels. Oh, wait: A media outlet reports on Arab response to the release Berg murder video... Zarqawi is an enemy of the Arab and Muslim nation because he distorted their image and portrayed Islam in an incorrect manner, said Hasan Ahmad Jar Allah, 41, a Saudi government employee, who had seen the tape on the Internet. That's Al-Jazeera. Do you suppose that the Senior VP of Al-Jazeera Editorial will later write a piece saying that, in retrospect, publishing this dissenting view was a mistake, because otherwise, how will people judge later stories that they are clucking over? Fox's Moody continues: Do we expect American soldiers to be morally superior to the people who are trying to kill them ...? Hell, Yes, I expect them to be morally superior to the enemy! (Well, to be accurate, I expect them to be /under orders/ to be morally superior to the enemy. Knowing that the armed forces contain some percentage of Linndie England and her ilk, and knowing that they are half a world away fighting a war that they don't understand, I /expect/ them to behave like animals.) Talk about hating America! Isn't it our moral superiority that defines our enemies in the first place? (No, Dave, it's the fact that -- er, that is, the rumor that -- er, that is, the faulty intelligence that Iraq had weapons of mass destruction that made him our enemy. Anyway, the world is safer without Saddam in power...) (Be sure to tell that to the Bergs.) They're *American* soldiers, for goodness' sake, representing *America* and our values, supposedly engaged in winning the hearts and minds of the Iraqi people. If American soldiers are /not/ expected to be morally superior to the people who [they are trying to kill and] are trying to kill them, then what are we? Just the most heavily armed moral inferiors on the planet? I hope not, but I'm starting to lose hope. Dave Show us the pictures of the pain -- Jim Morrison ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Kurt Vonnegut on the state of the world
Deborah Harrell wrote: I don't recall reading any Vonnegut novels (though I'm sure I must have read some short stories in anthologies) - have to remedy that. Not sure whether my word has any weight for you, but I read most of what he wrote, and have enjoyed it tremendously. His writing was one of the few things that my very conservative Dad and I agreed on. Vonnegut skewers left, right, center and dimensions that even Libertarians don't measure. He seems to enjoy piercing pride more than just about anything else. Another gem from Vonnegut's piece: Even crazier than golf, though, is modern American politics, where, thanks to TV and for the convenience of TV, you can only be one of two kinds of human beings, either a liberal or a conservative. About 2/3 of the way through, he writes But I have to say this in defense of humankind: No matter in what era in history, including the Garden of Eden, everybody just got there. Given that,it's no wonder that we're confused by the way the world works and why we screw it up so much. Of course, I have no idea if this is what he intended, but he's talking about the psychological concept of thrownness, and he describes it better than many articles that purport to be /about/ thrownness. I've always described it as being rather like the game Myst (if you recall that), only in this one, there are lots of other people, many of whom are trying to screw you and each other (using any definition of that word that you like), nobody actually knows what the whole point of the game is, there's stuff here that can /kill/ you (and sometimes laughs about it) and there's no easy way to quit. Dave ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Fox news: Iraq Torture Scandal: 'morally superior racism'
- Original Message - From: Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 6:31 PM Subject: Re: Fox news: Iraq Torture Scandal: 'morally superior racism' If American soldiers are /not/ expected to be morally superior to the people who [they are trying to kill and] are trying to kill them, then what are we? Just the most heavily armed moral inferiors on the planet? To some degree, *We* are the barbarians at the gate. We have shamed ourselves in front of the world, and that makes me feel ashamed *and* angry. (Note that I am not pointing a finger and blaming soldiers or presidents. As an American I figure I have to share some of the blame since *I* *am* a part of a set of people who should accept the stopped buck, resolve to stand together, and make definite plans to improve for the future.) xponent Civilizing Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Finding the Future
At first I thought this was refering to the 1997 documentary - The Sci-Fi Files 'Living in the Future' . I picked up 'Living in the Future' for either $3 or $5 dollars. Seemed worthwhile at that price. I later found it was supposed to be part of a 4 video series. Lots of movie clips, interviews with Kim Stanley Robinson and a New York writer I've never heard of and have forgotten her name already, easy-to-listen-to narration by Mark Hamill. On Thu, 13 May 2004 17:51:29 -0500, Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: http://www.scifi.com/sfw/issue368/screen3.html Finding the Future: A Science Fiction Conversation ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Neanderthal
On Thu, 13 May 2004 12:18:39 -0700 (PDT), Deborah Harrell
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Ronn!Blankenship [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
At 03:58 PM 5/11/04, Deborah Harrell wrote:
Debbi
whose younger brother parodied Yesterday with
Leprosy ('I'm not half the man I used to be' etc. --
sick, but funny; Hansen's disease is now thankfully
controllable and quite rare)
I'd like it. I picked up a parody somewhere of Yesterday'.
Sodomy.
I made love to you illegally.
The legislature wants to come and see
Then lock us up without a key.
Suddenly
I'm not half the man I used to be.
Justice Rehnquist said so on TV.
We have no right to privacy.
Where... did... Our rights go?
I don't know.They wouldn't say.
They say the laws are clear:
If you love queer,
It's not okay ay ay ay.
etc...
#1 on Google for Liberal News
Easter Lemming Liberal News Digest
http://elemming2.blogspot.com
___
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Re: [L3] Re: Warhorses
I was surprised to read on one of the sites (from my L3 post) that Romans and some Oriental tribes used chainmail on their horses -- do you think this is correct? I don't know about mail, but certainly Roman cavalry used other types of horse armor -- scale and/or lamellar, either metallic, hardened leather, or made of horn. The Romans were influenced to a degree from Eastern peoples, such as the Sarmatians, oriental Germans (Goths, etc) and of course the Parthians and Sassanid Persians. So much so that they adopted some of their cavalry fighting styles (Cataphractarii and Clibanarii) as well as horse armor. Fragments of such panoplies have been discovered by archaeologists, as well as primary sources of the time discussing such troops. Damon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Pentagon admits Geneva convention violations approved?
If I am reading this correctly, the Pentagon has just admitted that the approved rules for interrogation in Iraq included violations of the Geneva convention. My source is today's Senate Armed Services hearing, where the vice chairman of the joint chiefs and the assistant secretary of Defense were questioned. It is described at: http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=storyu=/nm/20040513/ts_nm/iraq_abuse_dc_51 quote During a Senate Armed Services Committee (news - web sites) hearing, Democrats confronted Deputy Defense Secretary Paul Wolfowitz, the No. 2 official at the Pentagon, and Gen. Peter Pace, the No. 2 U.S. general, with rules of engagement for interrogations approved by the top commander in Iraq (news - web sites), Lt. Gen. Ricardo Sanchez. These methods included sleep and sensory deprivation, forcing prisoners to assume stressful body positions for up to 45 minutes, threatening them with guard dogs, keeping them isolated for longer than 30 days, and dietary manipulation. Sen. Jack Reed (news, bio, voting record) asked Pace if a foreign nation held a U.S. Marine in a cell, naked with a bag over his head, squatting with his arms uplifted for 45 minutes, would that be a good interrogation technique or a Geneva Convention violation. I would describe is as a violation, sir, replied Pace, vice chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff. As I read Gen. Sanchez's guidance, precisely that behavior could have been employed in Iraq, said Reed, a Rhode Island Democrat. Reed later asked Wolfowitz a similar question. Wolfowitz initially tried to sidestep it, but eventually replied, What you've described to me sounds, to me, like a violation of the Geneva Convention. U.S. interrogation techniques have come under scrutiny amid revelations that prisoners were kept naked, stacked on top of each other, forced to engage in sex acts and photographed in humiliating poses. Human rights activists have said the U.S. interrogation methods clearly violated the Geneva Convention and a separate international treaty against torture. end quote If this is true, then it is an extremely serious manner. It would be admitting deliberate, systematic, authorized violations of the Geneva Convention. That is not just the actions of a few bad apples. It seems to me to be high level illegal orders. I'll stand being corrected by someone who better understands the military, but I cannot see how a general could legally order his reports to delibrately violate a treaty agreed to by the United States. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse
Gautam Mukunda wrote: As for brainwashed on cheap DVD's [sic], well, what gives you the right to decide what holistic[ally] ... benefits the consumer? Are _you_ brainwashed on cheap DVDs? Why then do you think they are? Maybe they want cheap DVDs. I know I do. I wish I lived near a WalMart so I could get some of them. Oh, and sometimes you can find some great stuff in the bargain bin. You just have to be willing to really dig. Or so I've been told by someone who does that when he gets the oil changed in his car there. Julia who doesn't go to Wal-Mart very often, because the nearest one is in the parking lot from hell and the next-nearest one is on the other side of the interstate ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pentagon admits Geneva convention violations approved?
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If this is true, then it is an extremely serious manner. It would be admitting deliberate, systematic, authorized violations of the Geneva Convention. That is not just the actions of a few bad apples. It seems to me to be high level illegal orders. I'll stand being corrected by someone who better understands the military, but I cannot see how a general could legally order his reports to delibrately violate a treaty agreed to by the United States. Dan M. I don't know the details (am still at work at 11:00pm, so I'm not exactly following the news) but it's not clear that insurgents captured in Iraq are covered by the Geneva Conventions, for the same reasons we've gone over on this list on several occasions. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse
The Fool wrote: -- From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] What would a left-wing libertarian be like? What sort of positions would one take on various issues? I'm curious. ACLU. EFF. The ACLU even defends scum-sucking proto-fascists like rush limbaugh. OK. I can get behind the EFF easy. In fact, we've sent them money. Every year we try to earmark money for politically-related contribution, and more often than not, it goes to the EFF. One year a number of politicians who'd hit us up for money got copies of the letter explaining why our money was going to EFF and not to them. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 10:51 AM Subject: RE: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse Indeed, let's praise Wal Mart. In my lifetime (again) no one has done more than Sam Walton to make sure that the American poor and middle class can get inexpensive, high-quality food and clothing. For that his company has been demonized. Wal Mart has done more to improve the lot of the American poor than any government program that I can think of. While I think Sam Walton actually did some very nice work, I think you overstate your case. The inflation adjusted purchasing power of the poor and middle class really boomed during the '60s. There was still widespread malnutrition during the '50s, which mostly ended in the '60s, due to government programs. Before that, SS, the CCC, etc. did a great deal to help the poor in the US. A wise man once said that SS saved capitalism. That has got to be more important than anything Sam did. Indeed, IMHO, Target has often provided better value than Wal-Mart. I've been shopping there for almost 40 years. The prices are slightly higher, but I feel that the better quality of the material is worth it. (e.g. the clothes last enough longer so that the price per wearing is lower). Before it went downhill, doya think its Martha's fault? :-), even K-mart had decent value. So, I cannot see why Sam gets more credit than FDR's programs. I do consider Wal-mart and Sam's vastly superior to the NE department chains that went bankrupt trying to compete. I consider their investment in inventory control very much on target: a real investment in productivity. But, I think that you overstated your caseunless of course you meant in my lifetime to apply to Wal Mart has done more to improve the lot of the American poor than any government program that I can think of. If that's what you meant, and you mean improvements over the last 25 years, then its a closer call. It would depend on whether one calls Bill's fiscal management qualifies as a program...and whether you trust Brad's or JDG's economic judgment more. Dan M. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Neanderthal
Deborah Harrell wrote:
Debbi
whose younger brother parodied Yesterday with
Leprosy ('I'm not half the man I used to be' etc. --
sick, but funny; Hansen's disease is now thankfully
controllable and quite rare)
That's also been done. :) I think I saw it performed in 1985? By
girls dressed in white. It was a hoot.
Julia
___
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Re: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse
--- Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I do consider Wal-mart and Sam's vastly superior to the NE department chains that went bankrupt trying to compete. I consider their investment in inventory control very much on target: a real investment in productivity. But, I think that you overstated your caseunless of course you meant in my lifetime to apply to Wal Mart has done more to improve the lot of the American poor than any government program that I can think of. If that's what you meant, and you mean improvements over the last 25 years, then its a closer call. It would depend on whether one calls Bill's fiscal management qualifies as a program...and whether you trust Brad's or JDG's economic judgment more. Dan M. Append in my lifetime and you get to what I meant, yes. I think both Brad _and_ JDG vastly overstate the extent to which economic policies can be attributed to any single actor in the American system. If President Clinton had not had a Republican Congress - then things would have been very different. If that same Republican Congress had not had a Democratic President - then things would have been very different. I think economic policy is a little too broad to be called a program, though. I would say that the economic policies of the Clinton Administration pretty closely approximate my ideal (I would cut taxes and spending more, but I can definitely live with what we had). Also (as I think I've written here) one of the unheralded stories of the Clinton Administration was its _masterful_ handling of the 1998 Asian economic crisis. So I'm not stinting of my praise for what was, all in all, an excellent performance on that issue. = Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] Freedom is not free http://www.mukunda.blogspot.com __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Movies - Buy advance tickets for 'Shrek 2' http://movies.yahoo.com/showtimes/movie?mid=1808405861 ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Huntsville Forbes #8 Best Place 2004
Erik Reuter wrote: On Thu, May 13, 2004 at 08:47:08AM -0500, Dan Minette wrote: I found it interesting that the most leftist city that I'm familiar with, Madison WI, is listed number 1. Its interesting to compare this to the discussion of the need to set a healthy, conservative climate to attract business. I've always found those best places surveys amusing but useless, because of the noise. If you follow the cities from year to year, their ranking jumps around wildly. I suspect the ratings are meaningless, but even if they do really change that fast because of actual city changes, it is still mostly useless unless you plan to move every year... I'd look at the ratings over, say, 5 years, and see which cities are consistently in the top 20. Then maybe look into what, if anything, they have in common. Apparently Austin and Madison have a good number of things in common, frex. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Pentagon admits Geneva convention violations approved?
- Original Message - From: Gautam Mukunda [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, May 13, 2004 9:56 PM Subject: Re: Pentagon admits Geneva convention violations approved? I don't know the details (am still at work at 11:00pm, so I'm not exactly following the news) but it's not clear that insurgents captured in Iraq are covered by the Geneva Conventions, for the same reasons we've gone over on this list on several occasions. I personally saw Rumsfeld state last week that they are covered by either one or the other of two Geneva conventions. It makes sense because local irregulars are quite different from AQ with respect to the Geneva convention, IIRC. Indeed, I'm pretty sure that was the reason given. Some of the pictures shown on TV, like a naked, hooded man shackled to the bars of his cell, actually represent treatment that is more humane than some allowed under the rules drawn up in Iraq. According to the rules,** they can be subject to extreme heat or cold, hooded and naked for days, kept off any normal sleep for days and required to assume painful positions. Threatening with unmuzzled dogs also was approved. Who's fault is it when one of the dogs actually bites a prisoner. The handler, certainly. But, weren't the orders suspect too? Especially when the prison was out of control? That's a mighty fine line to walk without an accident happening. Further, there is a considerable amount of evidence that some of these folks were local folks who were arrested on suspicion alone. For example, one man claimed he was one of the folks in the picture said he cannot go home again on TV. He had a complex set of tattoos that matched the arm of one of the men in the picture. Maybe he faked it, I don't know, but I know that Bremmer wanted the population greatly reduced. From all of this, a number of the people in the prison should be considered no more than suspectsof which a significant percentage must offer no real danger or we wouldn't be trying to process them out. Doesn't an occupying power have a requirement to treat the citizens of the occupied state humanely? It was agreed that this was inhumane treatment, and it appears to be that it was officially approved. IIRC, Rumsfeld said that this was covered by another Geneva convention than the one we had discussed. This is far different from what was discussed with AQ two years ago. It was assumed that even AQ members would be treated humanely, because Rumsfeld said that unequivocally. Now, inhumane treatment of prisoners in Iraq appears to be approved. Dan M. ** I cannot guarantee that these are the rules, since the actual rules were classified and not published. But, I saw the senator state at least some of the rules I listed, and neither witness argued. (I don't think the hot/cold was stated by the senator, but that has been multiply sourced elsewhere.) If they are not, then someone needs to clarify things very quickly. Indeed, why in the world can't the Joint Chiefs know what the rules were? ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Shopping Re: Beheading Avenges Prison Abuse
Dan Minette wrote: Indeed, IMHO, Target has often provided better value than Wal-Mart. I've been shopping there for almost 40 years. The prices are slightly higher, but I feel that the better quality of the material is worth it. (e.g. the clothes last enough longer so that the price per wearing is lower). Before it went downhill, doya think its Martha's fault? :-), even K-mart had decent value. On some items, Target will actually be cheaper. (Ask me about the price of size 2 Huggies at various stores) For clothing, I've been more impressed with Target than Wal-Mart, in general. I've spent enough time shopping in both stores to have a pretty good mental picture of which store has a better selection in a given department, so I do some shopping at each. I just somehow end up at Target more often. (Specific location might have something to do with that, though.) Target: clothing for my children, diapers size 2 and smaller, diaper wipes, plastic storage totes, air cleaners, certain electronics Wal-Mart: baking pans, kids' dishes, mirrors, hardware (nails, screws, etc., not tools) Sam's: parmesan cheese, diapers size 3 and larger, batteries, tires Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: What America Does with its Hegemony
Steve Sloan wrote: Doug Pensinger wrote: What did the U.S. have to gain by intervening in Rwanda? Diddly squat, but that doesn't mean dedicated critics of the US couldn't come up with something. Presumably, Rwanda had something useful enough for past European imperialists to colonize the country, and the critics could use that. There have been very few critics of our intervention in Bosnia. Even those who were opposed to it at the time point to it as proof of our good intentions. If we were successful in preventing a genocide and that was our clear motive in interveneing, the success of our mission would speak for itself. If, instead of asking for another $25 B for Iraq, we put that kind of money and effort towards ending the AIDS epidemic, who could doubt our motive was pure? Critics would claim the politicians who proposed it were using African AIDS victims as an excuse for taking money from taxpayers, and giving it to their buddies in the pharmaceutical companies. Only those who have dishonest motives themselves. France's dishonest motives for opposing the war in Iraq haven't hurt them so far. Are you sure about that? Were _all_ of France's motives for opposing the war dishonest? And are you so sure that some in the U.S. don't have motives that are less than honest? Whatever their motives, at this point it sure looks like the French (Chineese, Russians, Germans, Canadians etc. etc.) had the right idea. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Neanderthal (was: More on the environmental movement)
Debbi wrote: who admits to having a bit of a thing for vampires-struggling-to-overcome-their-bloodlust... ;} Too much Barnibus (sp?) as a youth? -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Neanderthal (was: More on the environmental movement)
Deborah Harrell wrote: Debbi who admits to having a bit of a thing for vampires-struggling-to-overcome-their-bloodlust... ;} I like P.N. Elrod for that sort of thing. :) Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Yay!
Robert Seeberger wrote: Vajpayee will resign this evening as BJP has managed to secure only 184 seats. Congress should be heading the next govt. It already has 216 seats and needs 54 more seats to be in the majority. BSP, allied with Congress, has 52 seats... Ritu GCU Thrilled To Bits Thrilled enough to explain it to us ignorant Americans? G Certainly. :) BJP with its Hindutva ideology [India is for Hindus, let the muslims be aware that they need the goodwill of the hindus to survive and thrive], maniacal leaders [Narendra Modi, fr'ex] and selective justice has been voted out of power by the Indian electorate. All the billions of rupees spent on the 'India shining' and 'feel-good factor' campaigns amounted to nothing as people placed their trust in their own experiences and judgments. So this morning, after six long years, I woke up to an India whose next govt wouldn't dismiss secularism as 'leftist appeasement/cowardly reaction', wouldn't offend me by insisting that some citizens live on the sufferance of others, wouldn't infuriate me by acting as if the carnage of 2002 was 'understandable' or [even worse] 'expected' Mind you, BJP's defeat is not a panacea and Congress *would* infuriate me too but for now, BJP's exit is a good enough reason to celebrate. :) Ritu, who still can't quite believe that BJP is out GSV Yippee ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
