Re: NZ devil Santas terrorise Auckland
Steve Sloan wrote: Jim Sharkey wrote: Sounds like some people have been watching too many Ben Edlund cartoons. Yes, from the Multiple Santa episode of The Tick. :-) Thanks, Steve! That's a great episode, and it was neat to see an extension of the comic that hadn't gotten explored. Jim WE FRIED SANTA Maru ___ Join Excite! - http://www.excite.com The most personalized portal on the Web! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
The ReichliKlan Scandal Cycle
http://daoureport.salon.com/synopsis.aspx?synopsisId=a6da2e05-c808-4f7 e-9ab2-3d2a01a82a15 The Dynamic of a Bush Scandal: How the Spying Story Will Unfold (and Fade) - The third button on the Daou Report's navigation bar links to the U.S. Constitution, a Constitution many Americans believe is on life support - if not already dead. The cause of its demise is the corrosive interplay between the Bush administration, a bevy of blind apologists, a politically apathetic public, a well-oiled rightwing message machine, lapdog reporters, and a disorganized opposition. The domestic spying case perfectly illuminates the workings of that system. And the unfolding of this story augurs poorly for those who expect it to yield different results from other administration scandals. Here's why: the dynamic of a typical Bush scandal follows familiar contours... 1. POTUS circumvents the law - an impeachable offense. 2. The story breaks (in this case after having been concealed by a news organization until well after Election 2004). 3. The Bush crew floats a number of pushback strategies, settling on one that becomes the mantra of virtually every Republican surrogate. These Republicans face down poorly prepped Dem surrogates and shred them on cable news shows. 4. Rightwing attack dogs on talk radio, blogs, cable nets, and conservative editorial pages maul Bush's critics as traitors for questioning the CIC. 5. The Republican leadership plays defense for Bush, no matter how flagrant the Bush over-reach, no matter how damaging the administration's actions to America's reputation and to the Constitution. A few 'mavericks' like Hagel or Specter risk the inevitable rightwing backlash and meekly suggest that the president should obey the law. John McCain, always the Bush apologist when it really comes down to it, minimizes the scandal. 6. Left-leaning bloggers and online activists go ballistic, expressing their all-too-familiar combination of outrage at Bush and frustration that nothing ever seems to happen with these scandals. Several newspaper editorials echo these sentiments but quickly move on to other issues. 7. A few reliable Dems, Conyers, Boxer, et al, take a stand on principle, giving momentary hope to the progressive grassroots/netroots community. The rest of the Dem leadership is temporarily outraged (adding to that hope), but is chronically incapable of maintaining the sense of high indignation and focus required to reach critical mass and create a wholesale shift in public opinion. For example, just as this mother of all scandals hits Washington, Democrats are still putting out press releases on Iraq, ANWR and a range of other topics, diluting the story and signaling that they have little intention of following through. This allows Bush to use his three favorite weapons: time, America's political apathy, and make-believe 'journalists' who yuck it up with him and ask fluff questions at his frat-boy pressers. 8. Reporters and media outlets obfuscate and equivocate, pretending to ask tough questions but essentially pushing the same narratives they've developed and perfected over the past five years, namely, some variation of Bush firm, Dems soft. A range of Bush-protecting tactics are put into play, one being to ask ridiculously misleading questions such as Should Bush have the right to protect Americans or should he cave in to Democratic political pressure? All the while, the right assaults the liberal media for daring to tell anything resembling the truth. 9. Polls will emerge with 'proof' that half the public agrees that Bush should have the right to protect Americans against terrorists. Again, the issue will be framed to mask the true nature of the malfeasance. The media will use these polls to create a self-fulfilling loop and convince the public that it isn't that bad after all. The president breaks the law. Life goes on. 10. The story starts blending into a long string of administration scandals, and through skillful use of scandal fatigue, Bush weathers the storm and moves on, further demoralizing his opponents and cementing the press narrative about his 'resolve' and toughness. Congressional hearings might revive the issue momentarily, and bloggers will hammer away at it, but the initial hype is all the Democrat leadership and the media can muster, and anyway, it's never as juicy the second time around... Rinse and repeat. It's a battle of attrition that Bush and his team have mastered. Short of a major Dem initiative to alter the cycle, to throw a wrench into the system, to go after the media institutionally, this cycle will continue for the foreseeable future. -- To live in this process is absolutely not to be able to notice it - please try to believe me - unless one has a much greater degree of political awareness, acuity, than most of us had ever had occasion to develop. Each step was so small, so inconsequential, so well explained or, on occasion, regretted, that, unless one
Re: The ReichliKlan Scandal Cycle
The Fool wrote: http://daoureport.salon.com/synopsis.aspx?synopsisId=a6da2e05-c808-4f7e-9ab2-3d2a01a82a15 [snip] 8. Reporters and media outlets obfuscate and equivocate, pretending to ask tough questions but essentially pushing the same narratives they've developed and perfected over the past five years, namely, some variation of Bush firm, Dems soft. A range of Bush-protecting tactics are put into play, one being to ask ridiculously misleading questions such as Should Bush have the right to protect Americans or should he cave in to Democratic political pressure? All the while, the right assaults the liberal media for daring to tell anything resembling the truth. I read this just after reading Fred Clark's latest blog entry, http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2005/12/god_save_the_ki.html if you want to read the whole thing The meat of that post, to me, was this: quote The White House's claim, essentially, is this: The president may do whatever he sees fit in order to keep the country safe. For some, those last seven words justify and legitimize the unlimited powergrab of the first eight. But many of us cannot accept the beginning of that sentence -- the president may do whatever he sees fit -- regardless of what follows. end quote That is the heart of the disagreement, I think. Julia p.s. thanks for giving me that opening for sharing the slacktivist link! ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The ReichliKlan Scandal Cycle
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 1:47 PM Subject: Re: The ReichliKlan Scandal Cycle The Fool wrote: http://daoureport.salon.com/synopsis.aspx?synopsisId=a6da2e05-c808-4f7e-9 ab2-3d2a01a82a15 [snip] 8. Reporters and media outlets obfuscate and equivocate, pretending to ask tough questions but essentially pushing the same narratives they've developed and perfected over the past five years, namely, some variation of Bush firm, Dems soft. A range of Bush-protecting tactics are put into play, one being to ask ridiculously misleading questions such as Should Bush have the right to protect Americans or should he cave in to Democratic political pressure? All the while, the right assaults the liberal media for daring to tell anything resembling the truth. I read this just after reading Fred Clark's latest blog entry, http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2005/12/god_save_the_ki.html if you want to read the whole thing The meat of that post, to me, was this: quote The White House's claim, essentially, is this: The president may do whatever he sees fit in order to keep the country safe. For some, those last seven words justify and legitimize the unlimited powergrab of the first eight. But many of us cannot accept the beginning of that sentence -- the president may do whatever he sees fit -- regardless of what follows. end quote That is the heart of the disagreement, I think. I read the argument a bit differently. The pro-Bush argument is that, in the aftermath of Watergate and Viet Nam, we have had a government with a weak executiverelative to the power of the presidency before 1973. Bush has restored the balance, to where it was from FDR through the first term of Nixon. In times like these, especially, restoring that balance is absolutely essential for our national security. Now, I differ with this view, mind you, but this is at least the public argument that is being made. Second hand stories about what was said secretly needs secret tapes, I think, for verification. If those exist, we'll get all but 18 minutes lost do to a liberal computer virus. :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Communing with Satan in Madison Wisconsin
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, December 18, 2005 9:53 PM Subject: Re: Communing with Satan in Madison Wisconsin Excuse me? Everyone I've ever met that ever lived in Madison was a nice person, and not at all the sort to be communing with Satan. Well, you haven't had the years in Madison that I did (about 5 1/2). There are some very interesting folks there. In fact one of my house mates admitted to being a Satan worshiper...which got him in a lot of trouble with a crazy house mate we both had. The first house mate was an avent gaurde artist. He did things like howl at the moon, shave his arms in spirals, make paper from his hair, etc. When asked if he was a Satan worshiper by the crazy house mate, he acknowledged that he was...with rather involved reasoning. He was well educated enough to know that Satan was, throughout the Jewish cannon (OT), part of Yahweh's court. His position was the tester. Kind of a DA/police who is allowed entrapment as a technique. The beginning of Job refers to an older tradition that his this. Satan was the DA in God's court with respect to Jerubbebel (sp), while Michael was the defense attorney. Michael won. Anyways, to get back to the story, he also pointed out that the angels of God were also seen to be attributes of God by some. Thus, Satan could be considered part of God, who my housemate worshiped. I had no trouble with this, but my crazy roommate did. Madison is not called MadTown for nothing. :-) It's what Austin aspires to be. ducking quickly Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: My annual Xmas tirade... Was RE: An armed society ...
- Original Message - From: Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 6:35 PM Subject: Re: My annual Xmas tirade... Was RE: An armed society ... On Dec 4, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Gary Nunn wrote: Driving to work, at 5:00 am that morning was a REAL eye-opener. I was astounded at the number of people at the Super Wal-Mart. I made the mistake of stopping there to pick up donuts on the way to work OK, I'm home sick from work today, and in my few minutes of consciousness, I really should be doing something productive, but I have to chime in and say, Gary, you're *CONTRIBUTING* to the problem just by shopping at Wal-Mart! Wal-Mart is the corporate equivalent of those rude shoppers. It shoves ahead in line, it doesn't care whose toes it steps on to get the best deal, it honks its horn and gives the finger to other businesses, and it treats its employees like crap. About a quarter of the increase in productivity in the United States was attributable to Wal-Mart. Productivity gains are independent of the pay or benefits received by employees, so one cannot argue that's the source. Going to the local Wal-Mart, and going to the local mall, one can easily see the difference in the average economic status of people who shop at each place. Since my kids were looking at jobs at the mall, I can say that the benefits and wages there were not better than Wal Mart. So, I'm not sure why Wal-Mart is singled out as evil. Is there some reason that inefficiency is inherently moral? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
- Original Message - From: Andrew Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 7:57 AM Subject: Defeat in Victory I hate how terrorism and the war in Iraq have come to dominate debate so. I notice that Gautam and JDG rarely post these days, and there is no-one to staunchly dispute the centrist viewpoints we all seem to espouse (Dan excepted). FWIW, by US political standards, I am clearly to the left of center. Taking surveys from the British sites that were referenced by the Culture mailing list, I find myself very very slightly to the right of the British center (IIRC, on a scale that went from -10 to 10, I was 0.3 toward the conservativeas opposed to many Culturenicks who were in the -5 to -9 range (towards leftist). Indeed, Gautam, who left, stated that Bush was a D- president, and Bush won the majority of votes in '04. One of his favorite Harvard professors is Stanley Hoffman. If one googles for Hoffman's public writings, one would be very hard pressed to consider him anything but liberal. Indeed, from my perspective, most of the political posts here that are not my own, over the last few months, fit reasonably well into the Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Communing with Satan in Madison Wisconsin
Dan Minette wrote: Madison is not called MadTown for nothing. :-) It's what Austin aspires to be. ducking quickly Austin would be fine if the Lege would stop invading on a regular basis. :D Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Sanity Prevails: Judge rules against 'intelligent design'
Judge rules against 'intelligent design' excerpts... HARRISBURG, Pa. - In one of the biggest courtroom clashes between faith and evolution since the 1925 Scopes Monkey Trial, a federal judge barred a Pennsylvania public school district Tuesday from teaching intelligent design in biology class, saying the concept is creationism in disguise. U.S. District Judge John E. Jones delivered a stinging attack on the Dover Area School Board, saying its first-in-the-nation decision in October 2004 to insert intelligent design into the science curriculum violates the constitutional separation of church and state. Jones decried the breathtaking inanity of the Dover policy and accused several board members of lying to conceal their true motive, which he said was to promote religion. Complete article... http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10545387/ ___ If you can't take the heat, don't tickle the dragon. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Communing with Satan in Madison Wisconsin
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Communing with Satan in Madison Wisconsin Dan Minette wrote: Madison is not called MadTown for nothing. :-) It's what Austin aspires to be. ducking quickly Austin would be fine if the Lege would stop invading on a regular basis. :D I've got even worse news for you. Teri is starting full time at Austin seminary early next month. We were up there yesterday afternoon until this morning, moving some of our stuff into a small apartment. I expect to be there a few days a week, spending the rest of my time working in the Woodlands. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Communing with Satan in Madison Wisconsin
Dan Minette wrote: - Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:52 PM Subject: Re: Communing with Satan in Madison Wisconsin Dan Minette wrote: Madison is not called MadTown for nothing. :-) It's what Austin aspires to be. ducking quickly Austin would be fine if the Lege would stop invading on a regular basis. :D I've got even worse news for you. Teri is starting full time at Austin seminary early next month. We were up there yesterday afternoon until this morning, moving some of our stuff into a small apartment. I expect to be there a few days a week, spending the rest of my time working in the Woodlands. I don't think this is bad news. :) I'm free for lunch some Wednesdays. Julia ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
Dan wrote: Indeed, from my perspective, most of the political posts here that are not my own, over the last few months, fit reasonably well into the Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party. That may seem true from your perspective, Dan, an oil industry professional living in the heart of Texas, but not from my perspective. There are a lot of people well to the left of me around here and I consider myself moderate on many issues. In any case, it seems as if every time a news story breaks it reinforces my characterization of the President and his administration and chips away at yours. Maybe you’ll come around when they all get indicted. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
RE: Defeat in Victory
Dan Minette wrote: Indeed, from my perspective, most of the political posts here that are not my own, over the last few months, fit reasonably well into the Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party. Badly researched, misleading and inaccurate? :) Ritu ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Sanity Prevails: Judge rules against 'intelligent design'
Gary wrote: Jones decried the breathtaking inanity of the Dover policy and accused several board members of lying to conceal their true motive, which he said was to promote religion. Thank goodness sanity prevails _sometimes_. Note that Jones is a Bush appointee, too, not a Michael Moore liberal like me. -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: My annual Xmas tirade... Was RE: An armed society ...
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 4:56 PM Subject: Re: My annual Xmas tirade... Was RE: An armed society ... - Original Message - From: Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 6:35 PM Subject: Re: My annual Xmas tirade... Was RE: An armed society ... On Dec 4, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Gary Nunn wrote: Driving to work, at 5:00 am that morning was a REAL eye-opener. I was astounded at the number of people at the Super Wal-Mart. I made the mistake of stopping there to pick up donuts on the way to work OK, I'm home sick from work today, and in my few minutes of consciousness, I really should be doing something productive, but I have to chime in and say, Gary, you're *CONTRIBUTING* to the problem just by shopping at Wal-Mart! Wal-Mart is the corporate equivalent of those rude shoppers. It shoves ahead in line, it doesn't care whose toes it steps on to get the best deal, it honks its horn and gives the finger to other businesses, and it treats its employees like crap. About a quarter of the increase in productivity in the United States was attributable to Wal-Mart. Productivity gains are independent of the pay or benefits received by employees, so one cannot argue that's the source. Going to the local Wal-Mart, and going to the local mall, one can easily see the difference in the average economic status of people who shop at each place. Since my kids were looking at jobs at the mall, I can say that the benefits and wages there were not better than Wal Mart. So, I'm not sure why Wal-Mart is singled out as evil. Is there some reason that inefficiency is inherently moral? Wrong question Dan. Efficiency has nothing to do with peoples dislike of Wal-Mart. But I think a comparison of Wal-Mart and Microsoft with regard to their business practices, why people dislike them, and why one and not the other has spent time in court over business practices would be edifying. I assume there are more similarities than one might expect at first glance. xponent Mom And Pop Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
- Original Message - From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:05 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory Dan wrote: Indeed, from my perspective, most of the political posts here that are not my own, over the last few months, fit reasonably well into the Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party. That may seem true from your perspective, Dan, an oil industry professional living in the heart of Texas, but not from my perspective. Isn't this an empirically testable observation? For example, according to pollingreports.com, half of Americans think religion is being attacked in the US; I don't. Over 60% of Americans are for the death penalty; I'm against it. Most Americans either think the Patriot Act got it right, or didn't go far enough, I would like to see the powers cut back. Just below half (46%) of Americans approve of how GWB is handling Iraq. My defense of him is that he both has bad judgment and is horribly incompetent...but he didn't go to war to give big oil contracts they never saw. Most people think that Iraq has contributed to the long term security of the US; I don't. From this, I conclude that I'm somewhat to the left of the American political spectrum.besides my stand on gay marriages. With abortion, I think I'm center-right, but that's the biggest exception I can think of. I don't think the Democrats have a plan on Iraq, but I don't think Bush does either. Almost twice as many Americans think Bush has a plan; I think neither does. Most Americans think that the US is making significant progress in Iraq. (60%) I think the jury is still out, that the signals are mixed. My take on the majority of posts here is that the signals are virtually all negative. Let's see. The closest thing that I can see to me being pro-Bush on Iraq, is that I think he used horrible judgment in evaluating intelligence instead of actually lied about it. There was a recent poll, (I can't find it on pollingreport.com now, sorry) where most people chose lied instead of being accurate. Given those two choices, I would have picked lied...because he certainly wasn't accurate...so I think I'm close to the middle there. It might aid my understanding to see the issues on which you are more conservative than most Americans. If you are in the middle, wouldn't it be 50-50? Dan M. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:12 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory - Original Message - From: Andrew Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 7:57 AM Subject: Defeat in Victory I hate how terrorism and the war in Iraq have come to dominate debate so. I notice that Gautam and JDG rarely post these days, and there is no-one to staunchly dispute the centrist viewpoints we all seem to espouse (Dan excepted). FWIW, by US political standards, I am clearly to the left of center. Taking surveys from the British sites that were referenced by the Culture mailing list, I find myself very very slightly to the right of the British center (IIRC, on a scale that went from -10 to 10, I was 0.3 toward the conservativeas opposed to many Culturenicks who were in the -5 to -9 range (towards leftist). Where were you on the other axis with regard to others? Left/right isn't everything. Indeed, from my perspective, most of the political posts here that are not my own, over the last few months, fit reasonably well into the Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party. I'm not sure whether you are trying to paint others here as farther left than they are or shoehorn Moore into a more centrist slot. Perhaps you have been ignoring the polls over the last year or more?:) xponent Pendulum Arc Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:48 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory - Original Message - From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:05 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory Dan wrote: Indeed, from my perspective, most of the political posts here that are not my own, over the last few months, fit reasonably well into the Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party. That may seem true from your perspective, Dan, an oil industry professional living in the heart of Texas, but not from my perspective. Isn't this an empirically testable observation? For example, according to pollingreports.com, http://www.pollingreports.com ? xponent Huh? Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
- Original Message - From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:00 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory - Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:12 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory - Original Message - From: Andrew Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 7:57 AM Subject: Defeat in Victory I hate how terrorism and the war in Iraq have come to dominate debate so. I notice that Gautam and JDG rarely post these days, and there is no-one to staunchly dispute the centrist viewpoints we all seem to espouse (Dan excepted). FWIW, by US political standards, I am clearly to the left of center. Taking surveys from the British sites that were referenced by the Culture mailing list, I find myself very very slightly to the right of the British center (IIRC, on a scale that went from -10 to 10, I was 0.3 toward the conservativeas opposed to many Culturenicks who were in the -5 to -9 range (towards leftist). Where were you on the other axis with regard to others? Left/right isn't everything. I was on the libertarian sideI think about -4 or so. Indeed, from my perspective, most of the political posts here that are not my own, over the last few months, fit reasonably well into the Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party. I'm not sure whether you are trying to paint others here as farther left than they are I guess I'm saying that blood for oil is/has been a view of Michael Moore. I see it repeated many times here. I see myself as just about the only one left who has argued with Brin's view that GWB (and his dad) have betrayed the US and are/were pawns of Saudi Arabia. Now, I know there are issues on which I'm clearly more liberal than you. I recognize gun control as one. Perhaps you have been ignoring the polls over the last year or more?:) Which polls indicate that I'm to the right of most Americans on significant issues? Maybe abortion, but depending on the question, I can be in the middle or slightly right of center on that issue. Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
- Original Message - From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:07 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory - Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:48 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory - Original Message - From: Doug Pensinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:05 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory Dan wrote: Indeed, from my perspective, most of the political posts here that are not my own, over the last few months, fit reasonably well into the Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party. That may seem true from your perspective, Dan, an oil industry professional living in the heart of Texas, but not from my perspective. Isn't this an empirically testable observation? For example, according to pollingreports.com, http://www.pollingreports.com ? Sorry, just pollingreport.com. I got it right the second time. And, I've been corrected on another reference. It's Stanley Hoffmann, not stanley hoffman Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
Robert wrote: http://www.pollingreports.com ? Try it without the s http://www.pollingreport.com -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: NZ devil Santas terrorise Auckland
Steve Sloan wrote: Yes, from the Multiple Santa episode of The Tick. :-) Jim Sharkey wrote: Thanks, Steve! That's a great episode, and it was neat to see an extension of the comic that hadn't gotten explored. Your post reminded me to check TVShowsOnDVD.com, to see if there was any news about The Tick cartoon on DVD. No such luck, but I voted for it on the site. Maybe one of these days... __ Steve Sloan . Huntsville, Alabama = [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brin-L list pages .. http://www.brin-l.org Science Fiction-themed online store . http://www.sloan3d.com/store Chmeee's 3D Objects http://www.sloan3d.com/chmeee 3D and Drawing Galleries .. http://www.sloansteady.com Software Science Fiction, Science, and Computer Links Science fiction scans . http://www.sloan3d.com ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
- Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:02 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory - Original Message - From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 10:00 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory - Original Message - From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 5:12 PM Subject: Re: Defeat in Victory - Original Message - From: Andrew Paul [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 7:57 AM Subject: Defeat in Victory I hate how terrorism and the war in Iraq have come to dominate debate so. I notice that Gautam and JDG rarely post these days, and there is no-one to staunchly dispute the centrist viewpoints we all seem to espouse (Dan excepted). FWIW, by US political standards, I am clearly to the left of center. Taking surveys from the British sites that were referenced by the Culture mailing list, I find myself very very slightly to the right of the British center (IIRC, on a scale that went from -10 to 10, I was 0.3 toward the conservativeas opposed to many Culturenicks who were in the -5 to -9 range (towards leftist). Where were you on the other axis with regard to others? Left/right isn't everything. I was on the libertarian sideI think about -4 or so. Indeed, from my perspective, most of the political posts here that are not my own, over the last few months, fit reasonably well into the Michael Moore wing of the Democratic party. I'm not sure whether you are trying to paint others here as farther left than they are I guess I'm saying that blood for oil is/has been a view of Michael Moore. I see it repeated many times here. I see myself as just about the only one left who has argued with Brin's view that GWB (and his dad) have betrayed the US and are/were pawns of Saudi Arabia. Now, I know there are issues on which I'm clearly more liberal than you. I recognize gun control as one. Perhaps you have been ignoring the polls over the last year or more?:) Which polls indicate that I'm to the right of most Americans on significant issues? Maybe abortion, but depending on the question, I can be in the middle or slightly right of center on that issue. G It's not all about you Dan!G I was suggesting that perhaps you are missing that most of the liberal posters here are espousing views that are more centrist than you might think. From where I'm viewing, a corner seems to have been turned in recent months and most people in the US share opinions that are more leftish than they were over the last few years. xponent Swinging Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: My annual Xmas tirade... Was RE: An armed society ...
From: Robert Seeberger [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Dan Minette [EMAIL PROTECTED] From: Dave Land [EMAIL PROTECTED] On Dec 4, 2005, at 11:16 AM, Gary Nunn wrote: Driving to work, at 5:00 am that morning was a REAL eye-opener. I was astounded at the number of people at the Super Wal-Mart. I made the mistake of stopping there to pick up donuts on the way to work OK, I'm home sick from work today, and in my few minutes of consciousness, I really should be doing something productive, but I have to chime in and say, Gary, you're *CONTRIBUTING* to the problem just by shopping at Wal-Mart! Wal-Mart is the corporate equivalent of those rude shoppers. It shoves ahead in line, it doesn't care whose toes it steps on to get the best deal, it honks its horn and gives the finger to other businesses, and it treats its employees like crap. About a quarter of the increase in productivity in the United States was attributable to Wal-Mart. Productivity gains are independent of the pay or benefits received by employees, so one cannot argue that's the source. Going to the local Wal-Mart, and going to the local mall, one can easily see the difference in the average economic status of people who shop at each place. Since my kids were looking at jobs at the mall, I can say that the benefits and wages there were not better than Wal Mart. So, I'm not sure why Wal-Mart is singled out as evil. Is there some reason that inefficiency is inherently moral? Wrong question Dan. Efficiency has nothing to do with peoples dislike of Wal-Mart. But I think a comparison of Wal-Mart and Microsoft with regard to their business practices, why people dislike them, and why one and not the other has spent time in court over business practices would be edifying. I assume there are more similarities than one might expect at first glance. Yes. One of those companies is sued an average of 1700+ times a day every day, and one isn't. Ineffiencies *are* the economy. Perfect efficiencies would lead to 0% employment and complete economic collapse. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: The ReichliKlan Scandal Cycle
- Original Message - From: Julia Thompson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 1:47 PM Subject: Re: The ReichliKlan Scandal Cycle The Fool wrote: http://daoureport.salon.com/synopsis.aspx?synopsisId=a6da2e05-c808-4f7e-9ab2-3d2a01a82a15 [snip] 8. Reporters and media outlets obfuscate and equivocate, pretending to ask tough questions but essentially pushing the same narratives they've developed and perfected over the past five years, namely, some variation of Bush firm, Dems soft. A range of Bush-protecting tactics are put into play, one being to ask ridiculously misleading questions such as Should Bush have the right to protect Americans or should he cave in to Democratic political pressure? All the while, the right assaults the liberal media for daring to tell anything resembling the truth. I read this just after reading Fred Clark's latest blog entry, http://slacktivist.typepad.com/slacktivist/2005/12/god_save_the_ki.html if you want to read the whole thing The meat of that post, to me, was this: quote The White House's claim, essentially, is this: The president may do whatever he sees fit in order to keep the country safe. For some, those last seven words justify and legitimize the unlimited powergrab of the first eight. But many of us cannot accept the beginning of that sentence -- the president may do whatever he sees fit -- regardless of what follows. end quote That is the heart of the disagreement, I think. And on FafBlog.funny stuff: An interview with C Rice RICE: First of all, we don't send prisoners off to be tortured, Fafnir. We just transport prisoners to countries where torture happens to be legal and where they happen to end up getting tortured. FB: Well that explains everything then! It's all just a wacky misunderstanding, like that episode a Three's Company where Jack sends Janet off to Uzbekistan to get boiled alive by the secret police. RICE: I'd also like to point out that whenever we send a prisoner to a country that routinely tortures prisoners, that country promises us NOT to torture them. FB: And then they get tortured anyway! RICE: Yes, they do! It's very strange. FB: Over and over again, every time! That's gotta be so frustrating. RICE: Oh it is, it is. FB: So the first time you kidnap a prisoner an send him to Saudi Arabia you're like don't torture this guy an they're all we totally won't an then they go an torture him an you're all ooh Saudi Arabia I told you not to torture him! an they're all oh we're sorry, we promise next time an then you go well you better an you send em the next guy an they torture him too an you go oh man Saudi Arabia you did it AGAIN! RICE: The president believes in the value of patience, Fafnir. He's not going to let a few dozen innocent torture victims come between him and his favorite third-world dictators. FB: See after the first coupla hundred times that happened I woulda registered a complaint with customer service. xponent BlogHumor Maru rob ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: My annual Xmas tirade... Was RE: An armed society ...
- Original Message - From: The Fool [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Killer Bs Discussion brin-l@mccmedia.com Sent: Tuesday, December 20, 2005 9:52 PM Subject: Re: My annual Xmas tirade... Was RE: An armed society ... Ineffiencies *are* the economy. Perfect efficiencies would lead to 0% employment and complete economic collapse. Ah, so that explains why the economy of the Soviet Union outperformed the US for so long. :-) Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: Defeat in Victory
Dan wrote: It might aid my understanding to see the issues on which you are more conservative than most Americans. If you are in the middle, wouldn't it be 50-50? I said I was moderate on most issues, in fact I know we agree on many issues. Perhaps that is why it is frustrating me that you can't see that this administration is not just incompetent or even merely criminally negligent, but deliberately and blatantly nefarious. They torture people. That's not just a rumor or a wild story, it's a documented fact. They send others to countries where they can be more easily tortured. They set up secret prisons in foreign countries where torture may have occurred. They've withheld basic rights from many people, especially in Gitmo, but also right here in this country where they've kept one man behind bars for years without allowing him his day in court. He was there because someone that had been tortured gave evidence against him. Now tell me Dan, how is torture a matter of incompetence or bad judgment? To me it is illeagal and immoral, do you disagree? Now we find that he has been tapping phones without getting warrants. Never mind that he can get a warrant any time he wants via the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Court just about any time he wants even after the actual wire tap. I read recently that the FISC had only turned down something like 5 warrants in 30 years. So we have abuse of power, deliberate and intentional. These are the kinds of things that characterize the President; reckless disregard for the law. We hear about a man that calls the principals that have built this nation and to some extent have made the world what it is today a goddamned piece of paper Every data point added to the chart seems to indicate that this administration abuses and misuses his office. Why is it such a stretch that he has done so with regard to Iraq? Especially when there are several data points that indicate that he and others were interested in invasion before 911! -- Doug ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
Re: My annual Xmas tirade... Was RE: An armed society ...
But I think a comparison of Wal-Mart and Microsoft with regard to their business practices, why people dislike them, and why one and not the other has spent time in court over business practices would be edifying. I assume there are more similarities than one might expect at first glance. What percentage of the operating systems business does Microsoft have? Isn't it close to 95%? What percentage of the retail business does Wal-Mart have? Less than 9% according to Wilkipedia...which can stand correction if you have a better source. Still, I know it's not near 50%. Microsoft gives away features that are the main source of income for other companies (i.e. Microsoft Explorer vs. Netscape). I cannot think of a comparable action by Wal-Mart. If I own a PC computer (not including Apples, which I'd label , it's hard to get away from Microsoft. If I want to buy most retail items, I can and do go to Target. Were you thinking of another comparison? Dan M. ___ http://www.mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l
