[cctalk] Cards in the PDP-11/05 just sold on eBay
G'day all, Just followed the sale of the 11/05 on eBay (#175655196586) that ended a short time ago. It's a remarkably clean and complete machine and am not surprised at the hammer price. I was curious what the quad-height card with two ribbon cables coming out the sides was? It appears to have a couple leads as well, presumably going to the single-height board. Some sort of TTY interface? I presume non-DEC from the nylon handles. Steve
[cctalk] Re: PDP-11/05 early print set for download
Jon said > On 3/18/23 04:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> G'day all, >> I have just uploaded the engineering drawings for the early PDP-11/05, >> the one with the solid (no slots) Mazak lower bezel > > Huh? Mazak made machine tools. Did you mean Zamak > (zinc-based die casting alloy)? > > Jon It's Zamak in the US, and Mazak in the UK (possibly Europe too?) and other parts of the world. I'm in the other parts of the world bit. Adrian said I thought it was Mazak too - eg https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Myford-Mazak-hand-dials-ML7-and-ML7R-/325571981560 I had those exact same original Mazak handwheel dials on my ML7, changed them out for the machined resettable ones from Myford. Much nicer!
[cctalk] PDP-11/05 early print set for download
G'day all, I have just uploaded the engineering drawings for the early PDP-11/05, the one with the solid (no slots) Mazak lower bezel and the M7261 with the unpopulated region. The latest date I can find in this print set is October 1973, Drawing release 11/05-49. You can view or download it from https://archive.org/details/pdp-11-05-engineering-drawings-oct-1973 It is 147Mb in size, sorry about that but I didn't want the quality to drop too much (the raw scans were ~350Mb). Regards, Steve.
[cctalk] Re: Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school)
> On 2023-01-28 11:10 p.m., Chuck Guzis via cctalk wrote: >> On 1/28/23 17:34, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >>> Chuck said >> >> How does your setup differ form the 1052 keyboard? I know that uses a >> modified 024 keyboard, so interposers. >> Under DOS/360, a user program could write a CCW string to ring the 1052 >> bell. If that CCW string included a TIC back to the bell-ring CCW, the >> bell would just keep ringing with the keyboard locked out. >> >> Fun and games, from very many years ago. >> >> --Chuck >> >> > The keyboard on a 1052 is a keypunch keyboard I believe it is the same > as the 029. No, Chuck is correct the 1052 used a modified 024 keyboard, even through you would think it would have been an 029. Marc recently did a video on a keypunch keyboard, the 1052 one looks much the same. Mine differs a lot, the Spectra 70/752 used a Selectric mechanism, totally different to the keypunch keyboard. The Selectric keyboard is designed around doing a print cycle while the electric keypunch keyboard seems to be power driven to reduce or eliminate double-keying errors as the primary motive. I think, but am not certain. Sellam asked for a few photos of my 70/752 recreation project so here are some I just took. As I said, it's still a WIP with lots to do. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/RCA_Spectra_70-752_keyboard_recreation_WIP_01.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/RCA_Spectra_70-752_keyboard_recreation_WIP_02.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/RCA_Spectra_70-752_keyboard_recreation_WIP_03.jpg It's running, with the LEGO motor at the voltage indicated. The microswitch clevis rods will be cut to the right size once the storage bar is made. Also the 3D test prints of brackets, clutch and other parts etc. in the bags. All printed parts on the thing are white PETG. Note there is an added bit 7 bail interposer, spring return frame, clutch on the inside of the modified right frame, RCA-style mounting brackets, storage bar pivot rod, AC motor (needs a front bearing bracket made or I might just cut up the gearbox casing on it). Steve.
[cctalk] Mechanical Selectric keyboards on video terminals (was Re: Typing class in high school)
Chuck said > Speaking of keyboards, were there any computer keyboards or typewriter > keyboards with interposer mechanisms such as used on IBM keypunches? I > recall that was one thing that had a very different "feel" from a > typewriter keyboard. It changed my keyboarding style. There were some video terminals with mechanical Selectric keyboards, one for example being the RCA Spectra 70/752 from the mid/late 60s. For this RCA engineers substantially modified a Selectric 1 keyboard with many new bespoke mechanical parts to output 7-bit ASCII directly. The earlier RCA 6050 video data terminal and models 6051-1, 2, 3 Interrogator used a powered ASR33 keyboard, and the main console of the IBM Office System/6 workstation also used a powered Selectric keyboard. I've been working on a project for the last few years on and off to recreate this terminal's keyboard, starting with fixing a rusty seized Selectric II to operating condition then splitting the keyboard off from the power frame and powering the filter shaft with a motor in lieu of the normal print shaft gear train doing it. I machined out the RHS keyboard frame filter shaft (you can see this happening in this picture https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4862890) to accommodate a new filter shaft cycle clutch partially made from IBM spring clutch parts (not a Selectric clutch but from some other IBM device as it has a urethane drive gear on it, just like the RCA one) and a new 3D printed clone of the RCA cycle cam/anti-backlash arrangement. The cycle clutch latch rod has been moved from the centre to the right hand frame edge as RCA did. Also made a new interposer from a scrap of sheetmetal and additional bail rod from my stash of Selectric bits for RCA's Bit 7 ASCII, and put spring returns on these as this was previously done by the Whiffletree mechanism in the power frame. So I'm about 2/3rds through it. Next is to finish the cycle detent and also recreate the key interposer ASCII microswitch rack with its 50-or-so millisecond-delay steel clamping plate (RCA called it the 'storage bar') that is driven off the filter shaft via two steel crank arms pivoting on a new axle rod RCA put across the lower rear of the keyboard. The plate momentarily holds the 7 clevis rods for enough time for the terminal's electronics to strobe the microswitches. Final power is to be an old 110v IBM AC synchronous motor from the 1960s I found in my dad's collection of bits that looks identical to the RCA motor, need to make the armature aluminium fan it had and make the standoffs to the keyboard frame. The pinion on it thankfully meshes with the urethane cycle clutch gear. In the meantime I power the keyboard with a LEGO M Power Functions motor with some 3D printed brackets and a printed LEGO-tooth-compatible gear with a boss that clamps onto the filter shaft just exterior to the new cycle clutch. Been taking lots of photos but I've not done a page on this yet until there's more exciting things happening with it (ie. actual electrical encoding) however it is fun to power it up and type with a 100% genuine-action Selectric keyboard. This being: Feeling the key drop, which pushes the key lever off its detent spring, sets up the bail pattern, then the filter shaft rotating to punch the key interposer's end and move the bails, and then reset the key lever on the upstroke. All with some of that satisfying Selectric 'clunk'. I say 'some of' because in building and operating this I've realised that a lot of the Selectric 'feel' people rave about actually comes from the print shaft, tilt/rotate tapes mech, shift cam, Whiffletree and typeball movement all operating in concert (along with its sound) in a fraction of a second, the keyboard mech is only part of it. Steve.
[cctalk] Re: best C compiler(s) for varied vintage programming
On 27-Dec-22 12:19 PM, Chris via cctalk wrote: It cannot rely on bios/ms-dos services for compiling preferably. Iow I'd like to perform what I want to do on the target machine itself, LOL which is hysterical as I've never even seen it boot even once. I could complie on a standard pc I suppose and pop a disk in the Northstar Dimension. It would be nice if it's optimized for it's 80186. Or at least supports it's instructions. My goal is to get MINIX running on it, as the original Netware-86 OS has proven to be more rare then really anything else. From there I'd like to figure out how to support the pc compatible (or so we're told) logic boards that are plugged into the motherboard like standard isa cards, and even have 34 contacts on their card edge. It would be nice if someone had the ideal compiler package they don't need and could sell. I don't know anything about the Dimension, can it boot regular MSDOS floppies? Circa late 80s I used to recompile the Minix 1-point-something kernel and utilities under Minix on a plain 8088 clone with two (IIRC 360k) floppies only, no HD. The Minix C compiler (Toby mentioned Amsterdam, that sounds like it) took a lng while, but it was doable and actually worked. I still have all the diskettes for it somewhere.
[cctalk] Re: DLV11 M7940 SLU header wire colours?
Thank you Martin and Fritz for figuring out the DLV11 wiring colours, that's exactly what I needed and I appreciate it very much! Also there is a lot that I hadn't looked at before in those links, much appreciated. Certainly hadn't considered the wire gauge size too critically but I'll use what I've got for starters. Chasing up the BC0n cable details led me to Malcolm/Avitech's BC01 cable page, which also helps. I hope to power it up before Christmas, fingers crossed the M7270 and M8044 boards work. I have yet to check the jumpers on these. I can relate to the locomotive paint story in a way. I have an old WWII jeep, and rivet counters obsess over the _exact_ shade of WWII Olive Drab paint. This is exacerbated by most WWII film being black and white, and period colour film may not be regarded as perfect (although George Stevens' WWII footage on Kodachrome might come close) so finding good unfaded/undamaged paint examples isn't always easy. Now I had someone tell me they really thought my jeep was a great match to "real" OD, to which I replied that I had actually painted it in Khaki, which is closer to a brown than a green. Being a completely flat paint, when it's wet it temporarily changes appearance to gloss dark green. So I just say to people not to worry too much and the OD paint they use is bound to match exactly to at least one of the ~650,000 jeeps produced. Thanks cctalk list, wishing you all ice-cold Chrissie beers and barbie (Oz BBQ) for the season, Steve
[cctalk] DLV11 M7940 SLU header wire colours?
Sorry this post isn't about whether something is regarded as classic or not. I am almost done putting together a little 4-card Qbus machine using a H9281-BA card frame. Eschewing a piece of plywood, the frame, power supply, fans, Heeltoe POR board are all mounted on a clear acrylic A4-sized office 'In Tray' I picked up at a recycling centre. Hence I've named it PERSPEX-11 :) So.. For a DLV11 EIA serial connection, I am about to wire up a fly lead cable to go from an M7940 SLU (no dash version) 40-pin header to a DB25P. After finding the pinout on page 178 in the 1980 Interfaces Handbook, on header J1 I know only need the usual basic RS232 setup: J - Received Data F - Transmitted Data B - Signal Ground M to E loopback I have a blank 40-pin header shell and a pile of DuPont leads of all colours ready to slot into their respective locations in the header. I could use any colours but I'd really like to use the original colours for the above wires. So, the only wire colour reference in the handbook is for a J1 and J2 header DRV11 pinout on page 275. Pin B is Black, and Transmit is Red but Pin J Receive is marked as Orange/Ground, for that device. Also M and E don't have their colours specified for the loopback wire. I've also looked at the Gunkies 'DEC asynchronous serial line pinout' page which has the pinout but it doesn't mention the original wire colours sadly. Could someone point me to what colours the M7940 cable should be? Thanks for any help, Steve.
[cctalk] Re: Soviet PDP clones
About 5 years ago I saved these pics off eBay of what looked to me like an Eastern Bloc PDP-11/15 console. As I have a (rebadged) 11/15, I thought they were interesting. These aren't my photos, I don't own them, saved for educational purposes only. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_01.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_02.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_03.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_04.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_05.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_06.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_07.jpg http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/uploads/612/Eastern_Bloc_PDP-11_15_console_08.jpg Steve.
Re: idea for a universal disk interface
shad said > Hello, > I'm a decent collector of big iron, aka mini computers, mainly DEC and DG. > I'm often facing common problems with storage devices, magnetic discs and > tapes are a little prone to give headaches after years, and replacement > drives/media in case of a severe failure are unobtainable. > In some cases, the ability to make a dump of the media, also without a > running computer is very important. > > Whence the idea: realize an universal device, with several input/output > interfaces, which could be used both as storage emulator, to run a computer > without real storage, and as controller emulator, to read/write a media > without a running computer. > To reduce costs as much as possible, and to allow the better compatibility, > the main board shall host enough electrical interfaces to support a large > number of disc standard interfaces, ideally by exchanging only a personality > adapter for each specific interface, i.e. connectors and few components.> > There are several orders of problems: > - electrical signals, number and type (most disk employ 5V TTL or 3.3V TTL, > some interfaces use differential mode for some faster signals?) > - logical implementation: several electrical signals are used for a specific > interface. These must be handled with correct timings > - software implementation: the universal device shall be able to switch > between interface modes and be controlled by a remote PC > > I suppose the only way to obtain this is to employ an FPGA for logic > implementation of the interface, and a microprocessor running Linux to handle > software management, data interchange to external (via Ethernet). This means > a Xilinx Zynq module for instance. > I know there are several ready devices based on cheaper microcontrollers, but > I'm sure these can't support fast and tight timing required by hard disk > interfaces (SMD-E runs at 24MHz). > > The main board should include a large enough array of bidirectional > transceivers, possibly with variable voltage, to support as much interfaces > as possible, namely at least Shugart floppy, ST506 MFM/RLL, ESDI, SMD, IDE, > SCSI1, DEC DSSI, DEC RX01/02, DG6030, and so on, to give a starting point. > The common factor determining what kind of disc interface can be support on > hardware side is obviously the type of transceiver employed, for instance a > SATA would require a differential serial channel, which could not be > available. > But most old electronic is based on TTL/CMOS 5V logic, so a large variety of > computer generations should be doable. > > For the first phase, I would ask you to contribute with a list of interfaces > which could be interesting to emulate, specially if these are similar to one > from my list. > I please submitters to send me by email or by web link when possible, > detailed documentation about the interface they propose, so I can check if it > could be doable and what kind of electrical signals are needed. > Also detailed information about interfaced I listed is appreciated, as could > give some detail I'm missing. The Diablo / Pertec interface was a popular industry standard. Here's a product (no connection) that implements it https://www.arraid.com/data-storage-products/product/aem-5c.html It would be great if there were open source or cheaper devices, maybe there are, I guess the Unibone can do this? (I don't have one yet) (btw I never actually subscribed to cctech but somehow my cctalk ones get echoed over there)
Re: Glass memory?
Paul and others said >> What if you can't make ICs any more? Or rather, what level of IC >> fabrication would it be possible to construct from scratch? > For semiconductors, you'd start with machinery to make ultra-pure materials > (silicon, I'd assume). A Czochralski crystal growing machine to make > the cylinders of pure mono-crystal silicon from which wafers are sliced. > Polishing machinery. Wafer coating machines. Wafer steppers. Etching, > metal coating, diffusion, etc. most of which also require very pure > and often exotic ingredients. (I remember being amazed to read that > chlorine trifluoride is used as a cleaner in the semiconductor industry. > Look up the properties of that compound, it will blow your mind.) Which brings to mind the amazing work of Sam Zeloof: https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=zeloof+z1+chip
DEC ME11-L core memory expansion unit drawings
I have finally got around to scanning the print set for the DEC ME11-L memory expansion unit and you can find it at https://archive.org/details/dec-me-11-l-core-memory-system-engineering-drawings/ The quality is acceptable given that the office supplies shop where I (DIY) scanned them on an A3 scanner only allowed output as JPEG or PDF (undoubtedly wrapped as JPEGs inside) so I thought there was no point degrading any more than necessary with editing the JPEGs to another format just to re-save them. I just bundled the raw scanned pages as-is and it looks fine. There's also some miscellaneous fragments for the M7050, M715 and M840 module drawings which came with the ME11 set. Steve.
Re: Seeking paper tape punch
John said
> At 08:24 PM 2/21/2022, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote:
>>Consumer-grade CNC stencil cutters are fine at cutting plastic sheet and
>>should be ok with film stock.
>>My ptap2dxf (latest version 1.3) will produce output to cut tapes for ...
>
> Meaning the Cricut kind of device? Clever! So it works for
> short sections?
>
> Has anyone ever made a Cricut style cutter that has a continuous feed
> of tape?
>
> Why did you pick AutoCAD DXF as compared to Adobe Illustrator?
Exactly. Cricut-type devices, although I have not tested it on a Cricut as I
have a 2016 Silhouette unit. Its
driver software must be capable of importing DXFs though.
The tape length is not limited by the ptap2dxf but the cutting device. So there
is an option SEGMENT to split
the output pieces into whatever height the cutter can handle on its sticky
cutting mat, and a further option
PERDXF to specify how many widths of the selected tape to put onto one mat
before starting a new DXF, ie. carry
across batches of cutting mat size. The sprocket hole can be placed at any
position if wanted. The pieces are
stuck together after lifting from the mat and 'weeding' the chads, but I've
found most chads remain on the
sticky mat. It's a slow process, and hundreds of times slower than a real
punch, but hey.
The accompanying pdf manual on github illustrates how these things are done.
(Actually I just noticed I haven't updated the manual for the Whirlwind and
other new options - will do so!)
My machine generally uses a 12"x12" mat but can take a 12"x24" one. It can also
dispense with the mat altogether and
run any continuous length of material but it has to be sufficiently sturdy
enough for the gripping rollers to do
that, and paper tape is too flexible to be cut without a sticky mat.
DXF is the most basic Lingua Franca of the CAD world, is well understood and is
very simple. My CNC cutter sofware
(Silhouette Studio) imports DXFs from which the cut is done immediately with no
further manipulation. I use the free
InkScape to view the DXF's generated.
As I've not updated the doc just yet, here are the latest options in version
1.3:
Usage:
ptap2dxf [inputfilename.ptap] (Input ASCII file to be
punched. Same as --INPUT="/path/to/inputfile")
[--ASCII] (Show ASCII character
representation for row on console output)
[--BANNERFILE=/path/to/bannerfile](Generate uppercase punched
banner in 8x8 font from ASCII file contents)
[--BANNERTEXT="YOUR TEXT"](Generate uppercase punched
banner in 8x8 font from string)
[--BAUDOT](convert ASCII characters to
ITA2 Baudot. Forces 5-level output)
[--CABLECODE] (Generate 2-level Morse tape
with Cable Code coding (15/32 inch wide))
[--CHADLESS] (Half-punch Teletype Corp
chadless holes (circa 1975))
[--CONTROL-CHARS] (Show control characters on
console output)
[--DRYRUN](Run everything but do not
generate DXF file(s))
[--FLIP] (Invert bit pattern. Logical
NOT)
[--GAP=n] (Inter-segment gap in mm
between each paper segment on CNC cutting mat. Default is 0, ie. shared edges
with no gap)
[--HELP] (or ? prints this help)
[--INPUT=/path/to/inputfile] (.ptap or any binary or
ASCII input file. Optional switch, does not need to be given with filename)
[--JOINER](Make adhesive joiners for
paper segments)
[--LEADER=n] (Prefix output with blank
sprocket punch tape in 1/10 inch increments eg. 240 is 2 feet. aka /HEADER=)
[--LEVEL=n] (The number of data bits in
a row of holes. Default is 8 for byte-width ASCII 8-level. Use 5 for 5-level)
[--MARK=c](Console output character to
represent a mark (data bit = 1). Default is 'O'
[--MIRROR](Reverse the output
mark/space bit pattern to right-left)
[--NUMBER=BANNER|LEADER|CODE|TRAILER|ALL] (NOTE: --N defaults to
number the code lines only)
[--OUTPUT=/path/to/outputfile.dxf](output DXF file)
[--PARITY=NONE|EVEN|ODD] (Parity, if desired. Uses
MSB ie. leftmost hole. {NONE, EVEN, ODD}. Default is NONE)
[--PERDXF=n] (Fill CNC cutting mat with
this number of 1 inch wide (for 8-level) segment strips across before starting
another. 5-level = 11/16 inch)
[--QUIET] (do not write any console
output)
[--RANGE=n,[L
Re: Seeking paper tape punch
Ben said > This requires a REAL MACHINE SHOP ... none this 3d printer stuff. I > would recommend a building a 35mm film punch and reader, as film stock > is still easy to find compared to paper tape. Zuse used them for his > computers in Germany on the 40's. Quality Mechanical stuff is lost high > tech. Consumer-grade CNC stencil cutters are fine at cutting plastic sheet and should be ok with film stock. My ptap2dxf (latest version 1.3) will produce output to cut tapes for 8-level ASCII, 5-level Baudot, 2-level Morse (Wheatstone and Cable Code), 7-level Whirlwind, Teletype Chadless and some customising options too. Still some other formats to do such as Colossus etc. Thanks for the notion of making Zuse tape, will look into it. Steve.
Re: Also WTB: DEC VSXXX-AA Mouse or Compatible
Jonathan asked > If available, I'd like to purchase a bunch. I am setting up a lab to work on > X11 (and then accelerated X11) support for NetBSD, on: > - Vaxstation II > - Vaxstation II/GPX > - vaxstation 2000 with 8-plane GPX, and mono if I can find another chassis > - microvax 3100 with. mono, GPX, and/or SPX > - DECstation 5000 with a range of Turbochannel graphics options (and 3100s > if I fix more PSUs) > - Dec 3000 AXP, with a range of Turbohannel graphics options ( I have 300, > 500, 600, and 700) > > I vaguely recall someone (in Australia?) mentioning they had -CA or -GA mice > "by the kilogram". I'd pay fair price and shipping to the USA. > (I live in the San Francisco Bay Area) . > Indeed I do, and posted a photo of the 3kg bag of DEC VSXXX-GA previously. In addition I found I also have some VSXXX-AA, VSXXX-BB, PCXAS-AA, PC7XS-CA and 30-46117-02 mice. Untested, the lot of them. Regarding the puck mice I'm afraid the chalky roller discs have completely perished and there's hardly a trace of them left, most have only the shafts. Certainly not mechanically useable in their current state. But, that's what I have. I designed and 3D printed replacement rollers that use a small O-ring on the edge https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:2899467 The VSXXX-BB have a 4-contact plug with two side locking arms and are like a chunkier version of an RJ11 I guess you could describe it. Contact me offlist stevenNOLUNCHMEATatNOLUNCHMEATmalikoffNOLUNCHMEATdotCOM perhaps we can work something out re quantity. I was thinking about 35 USD per VSXXX-GA and 50 USD per VSXXX-BB (as they need repair). That can then go toward the UniBone I'm saving up for :) Let me know if you think that's too much. Also I'm in Oz so postage so I'm guessing postage won't be cheap. Steve. ps. also have a bunch of PDP-9 flip chips I would like to sell/trade sometime.
Re: PDP-11/44 gas struts
Alan asked > I have a PDP-11/44 system in the DEC 41" high cabinet. > It is designed to be tilted up for service, aided and > supported by two gas struts, one on each side. > > Unfortunately, after all these years, the struts have > failed and do not provide any assistance. That box is > heavy! > > Does anyone know where I can get replacement gas struts? No idea about original but if aftermarket is ok: ebay.com 69,448 results for gas strut Results could surely be narrowed down if dimensions provided. Also for a given size they come in different levels of compression force required. I have replaced a few here and there, and also had them re-gassed by a mobile service although that did not really last a long time. Steve
Re: TU56 DECtape takeup reel needed
Mike said > I am also in need of emtpy reels. I purchased a TU56 that had been > taken apart to restore and the restoration had never been finished. The > empty reels were not in the box of parts. > > Has anyone tried 3D printing these? I haven't tried printing a TU56 one as I don't have that peripheral, but have done in OpenSCAD a paper tape spool where the sides twist-lock together. If I had one, or measurements, I'd script it up. Steve.
Re: Reproduction DEC 144-lamp indicator panels
Noel said > The only PDP-11 devices which used indicator panels which I know of were: > > - the DX11 (I don't think anyone's got one of those) > - the RF11 (ditto - although Guy was discussing emulating one at one point) > - the RP11 (but the indicator panel is built into the controller rack there, > so if one has an RP11, one already has the indicator panel) > - the RK11-C (and several people who have those already have indicator panels) Was there ever an indicator panel for the RC11? Just curious as I have a set of RC11 modules (M7219, M7220, M7221, M7222, M7224, M7225) I found with the FOX-2/10 (PDP-11/15). No backplane though. I've not found any docs for these, I suppose they're probably on bitsavers and have overlooked them. Another indicator panel but non-DEC was the Foxboro drum (that's their description of the fixed-head disk) unit apparently using the DDC 6200 with their own proprietary DBI controller. The drum indicator panel bezel is the same casting as the 11/15's (and 11/20) as seen on page 1 of this extract: https://archive.org/details/drum_extract_from_FOXBORO_FOX2_Hardware_System_Overview_Jan1972 I have the complete Foxboro schematics for this controller including the panel with its 61 bulbs. It's on my to-do scanning pile. From an old 2007 message I found, I think Guy S has one? There was also a small mention of it being emulated in Section 4.4.15 of the Ersatz-11 manual. I can't see any evidence that the RC11 controller had anything to do with the Fox unit, so I have no idea why they had it. There was no trace of any fixed-head disk hardware with the 2/10 and I think it may have only been offered with the upgraded FOX 2/30 system. Steve.
Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation
Adam wrote >> On 11/19/21 9:33 PM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk didn't write: >> >> And what happens when you wake up one morning to find archive.org is >> gone, too? >> >> > Fundamentally, eventually we're all going to be indistinguishable > mass-components inside the supermassive black hole that used to be the > Milky Way and Andromeda galaxies anyway. > > Smoke 'em while you got 'em. I did not write that line, it's misappropriated from a followup. But I agree with the sentiment that entropy is going to win in the long run. That scene in 'Bill and Ted's Excellent Adventure' where Socrates pours dust through his fingers kind of sums it up :) Steve
Re: The precarious state of classic software and hardware preservation
Michael asked > What are we, as a community, to do to fix this and make sure that our > history stays peserved and isn't one bad day away from vanishing. Whenever some new vintage computing page appears I go to archive.org and submit the URL to them for the wayback machine. Often they've crawled it already, but not always so I think it does help. Steve.
Re: Looking for info on memory
> On 10/19/2021 12:57 PM, Nigel Johnson Ham via cctech wrote: >> I am trying to bring up an 11/23 system in a BA23 box, and the only >> memory i have is an obscure Plessey one. The only identification is the >> p/n 705920 with dash-100 in white ink. By counting the chips I make it >> 4MB, but it does not respond. Since it takes the full 22-bit memory >> space I can't see how any jumpers would change its accessibility. Does >> anybody have a manual? FoothillsGeek on VCFed had a number of Plessey memory manuals and had scanned some, as mentioned here https://www.vcfed.org/forum/forum/genres/dec/73251-dec-documents-on-manx
eBay Carterfone I/O Selectric (not mine)
Just a heads up on a Carterfone rebadged I/O Selectric terminal on eBay (not mine). #294429449623. It passed in earlier, now relisted lower BIN. I'm surprised no-one grabbed it the first time as it seems very reasonable for someone stateside. Its postage to Oz jumped from 400 USD to 500 USD when relisted which may be due to US Post not sending to Oz and other countries at the moment, so if it wasn't coming here the first time, it's now even less likely :) Seems it would go nicely with those 987 APL typeballs someone picked up earlier.
Re: Found my favorite DOS editor
In the late eighties I used to use E, an editor developed internally at IBM. My dad had retired from there by then but got it from ex-colleagues. I see you can get it from here now https://winworldpc.com/product/ibm-e-editor/3x Already mentioned is Brief, I still have the light green box on the shelf. This was ultra customisable but like many, just used it as-is. A super compact and snappy editor was the one built into Turbo Pascal. IIRC it used WordStar bindings. It was so compact on CP/M that I kept the whole integrated editor/Pascal compiler on my 8" floppies just for editing my COBOL assignments, later on using the DOS version in Turbo C / C++. I also used WordStar on those OSs and I'm sure lots of you will fondly remember the LIST viewer by Vernon Buerg. I loved that program.
Re: 3d modelling software
Rob asked > I think I may need to get a small part 3d printed (some plastic board > mounting guide rails from a PDP 11/24 H7140 PSU). What software is best for > a novice? Preferably free! I've found OpenSCAD to be perfect for things like brackets, machine parts and so on. It's no good for figurines and other complex curved objects, perhaps use Blender for those. It also has its quirks and limitations such as being notoriously crappy at fillets, but even passable versions of those can be achieved now (see https://www.thingiverse.com/thing:4932117). I like being able to model solids from first principles, where the model's source is literally just that, a piece of source code. Easy to email or print. And I know that my model is always going to be around and not beholden to the cloud. You can get the program at http://openscad.org/ Being code I think anyone here on cctalk could pick up the gist of it in only one or two clock cycles. Some public models of mine at https://www.thingiverse.com/1944gpw/designs feel free to look at the source which I provide with all my public designs. An STL file is not a source file, but a .scad file is, and is naturally parametric. And only three consecutive keypresses required to generate an STL file ready for slicing: F5 (preview) then F6 (render) and then F7 (save STL). That's fantastically simple. Other free CAD apps I've used include FreeCAD but I found it crashed when trying to import machine-generated DXF files of involute gears with line segments that weren't properly closed. OpenSCAD imported them no problem. Why not give it a try, I'm sure it would be ideal for your guide rails. Steve.
ME11-L 3U fascia panel attachment Re: DEC ME11 Memory Expansion on eBay
I've been asked about the ME11 3U fascia panel bracket and how it attaches to the H-909 (slimline 11/05) cabinet, here is what it looks like. The metal originals are at front and my PET repops installed on the panel. There is not a lot of thread depth through the flanges but it seems to hold on well enough. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/DEC_pn_211221_3U_fascia_to_H-909_slimline_cabinet_ME11-L_memory_expansion.png Steve
DEC ME11 Memory Expansion on eBay
I just saw there is an ME11 Memory Expansion unit on eBay (not mine), stamped 'M11'. https://www.ebay.com/itm/114941479208 Until seeing this one I had not heard of any other units out there apart from the one I recovered (ex-BHP steelworks) a few years ago. Mine was connected by a flexprint cable to a rebadged PDP-11/15. If anyone here ends up with it, I have an OpenSCAD model of the Mazak bracket p/n 1211221 that holds the regular 5-1/4" DEC fascia panel onto the front of the H-909 cabinet this unit uses. This is the same cabinet as the slimline PDP-11/05 and to be honest when I found the ME11 that's what I thought it was, and that the console and CPU boards were missing. I then found the fascia panel with the original brackets close by, and it fitted exactly. I've printed a few from PET and they work as well as the originals (including the threaded hole), so I could do a few more for whoever gets the eBay one should they want them. I am slowly scanning the ME11 print set too as I've not found any online copy out there so far. Steve.
Re: Reading MT/ST Tapes
Paul said >Part of the fun of the banking terminals was some bank branches had the >machines on the counter, right where the banks customers are, and >customers would often feel obliged to offer some of their wit or wisdom >while you where up to you elbows in a greasy machine. I those days of >working on greasy mechanical machine we where obliged to wear suit and >tie A practice still observable on Youtube where you can marvel at a grimy oily ASR33 being stripped down and restored, all the while whilst wearing a spotless crisp ironed long-sleeve pin-striped business shirt... :) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pEzpYHb4p5w Steve
Re: LCM Accounts?
Zane said > The systems aren’t shutdown, I was able to connect to it, I just can’t log > on. I never bothered to get accounts on any of the systems. I had a VMS account on their VAX 11/785 (ROSIE) a few years ago, but didn't use it much, and according to the note I had made in my password manager at that time they expire general access accounts after 90 days inactivity. Presumably policy that still holds. Steve.
Re: DEC PDP-8/e H212 core mat repair
Tom said > I am curious if anyone has attempted to repair (replace) a broken wire in a > PDP-8/e H212 (MM8EJ) core mat (8 k word). The cores are not visible without > a microscope. I cannot imagine how these were even manufactured and wonder > if DEC service centers repaired core mat faults or if faulty boards were > simply discarded. > > CDC 6600 cores were huge in comparison and I would not hesitate to replace > a broken core wire on those. I have no idea how DEC made theirs but for IBM's System 360, one of their engineers came up with the clever idea of stretching the core wire so it necked and broke, leaving a work-hardened tapered point to thread the cores with. They patented it https://patents.google.com/patent/US3314131A (Source: page 187 of 'IBM's 360 and early 370 Systems' by Pugh et al) On a Youtube film about the 360 they show cores being vibrated into the correct orientation on a jig board.
ARDS was Re: VT340 Emulation
Douglas said > Someone already did this with a TEK4010 emulation: See > > https://github.com/rricharz/Tek4010 > > Hmmm... You could use a Raspberry Pi to emulate a number of terminals. Interesting that that emulator covers the ARDS. Surely there can't have been too many graphics terminals for general sale in the 1960s that had a mouse, but the ARDS was one of them. Here's an ad for it on page 17, Datamation December 1969: https://archive.org/details/bitsavers_datamation_42955706/page/n17/mode/2up Steve.
Re: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?)
Tom said > On 6/17/21 6:57 AM, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> Tom said >>> I have a couple different drawing sets for the 11/05 and while some have >>> the matching M7260 >>> schematic, only the GT40 drawings (I found on bitsavers) has the M7261E >>> schematic: >>> >>> http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11/GT40_Graphic_Terminal_Engineering_Drawings_Feb73.pdf >>> >>> The GT40 drawings has the PROM listings and related, so I am hoping that >>> they match what is in the >>> two boards. >> My original PDP-11/05 print set that came from the BHP steelworks is titled >> just 'PDP-11/05 Engineering >> Drawings' and the drawings are for machine revision 1105-0. It covers the >> early 11/05 with the cast metal >> grille with no slots (as seen in the 11/05 handbook) rather than the later >> 11/05 with the plastic slotted >> grille. >> The dates on the drawings are 1972 and some of the microcode listing dates >> are different to the 'PDP-11/05-S, >> 11/10-S systems engineering drawings' bitsavers scan and the GT-40 scan, and >> some of them are the same. >> >> I'm not sure where I look to see what revision of the M7261 it shows, as the >> Rev box in the bottom right >> seems to jump around, eg. Rev N, Rev K, Rev H or is that just the minor >> drawing revision for that page? >> >> Steve >> > If you look at the board layout for the M7261, the E rev board has a large > open area, devoid of ICs, > whereas > the non-E rev board has a uniform distribution of ICs across the surface. > > --tom > Yes my M7261 board drawing appears to be the earlier one, similar to the GT40 drawing but is revision N instead of M. (I myself have an early 11/05 s/n 151 but it has a later M7261 in it.) >From the ex-BHP print set the microcode listing details and Page Revision >Control Sheet latests are K-MP-KD11-B-1 MICROPROGRAM FLOW Rev B (PRCS: Rev. B [BABAAA]) (Listing: K-MP-KD-11B-1 Rev. A 27-JUL-72) K-MP-KD11-B-2 MICROPROGRAM SYMBOLIC LISTING Rev D (PRCS: Rev. D [DABCBA]) (Listing: K-MP-KD-11B-2 Rev. A 27-JUL-72) K-MP-KD11-B-3 MICROPROGRAM BINARY LISTING Rev D (PRCS: Rev. D [DAA])(Listing: K-MP-KD-11B-3 Rev. A 27-JUL-72) K-MP-KD11-B-4 MICROPROGRAM CROSS REF LISTING Rev D (PRCS: Rev. -) (Listing: K-MP-KD-11B-4 Rev. * 2-MAY-72) M7620-0-1 DATA PATHS Rev. N (PRCS: Rev. N [MMMN]) M7260-0-8 DATA PATH ROM PATTERNS Rev. ? (same as GT40) M7261-0-1 CONTROL LOGIC AND MICROPROGRAMRev. P (PRCS: Rev. P [PNHHJKJHJMKKKH]) M7261-0-1 CONTROL LOGIC ROM PATTERNSRev. A (same as GT40) (PRCS: Rev. A [A]) Steve.
Re: PDP-11/05 (was: PDP-11/05 microcode dump?)
Tom said > I have a couple different drawing sets for the 11/05 and while some have the > matching M7260 > schematic, only the GT40 drawings (I found on bitsavers) has the M7261E > schematic: > > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/dec/graphics/VT11/GT40_Graphic_Terminal_Engineering_Drawings_Feb73.pdf > > The GT40 drawings has the PROM listings and related, so I am hoping that they > match what is in the > two boards. My original PDP-11/05 print set that came from the BHP steelworks is titled just 'PDP-11/05 Engineering Drawings' and the drawings are for machine revision 1105-0. It covers the early 11/05 with the cast metal grille with no slots (as seen in the 11/05 handbook) rather than the later 11/05 with the plastic slotted grille. The dates on the drawings are 1972 and some of the microcode listing dates are different to the 'PDP-11/05-S, 11/10-S systems engineering drawings' bitsavers scan and the GT-40 scan, and some of them are the same. I'm not sure where I look to see what revision of the M7261 it shows, as the Rev box in the bottom right seems to jump around, eg. Rev N, Rev K, Rev H or is that just the minor drawing revision for that page? Steve
Re: Melted computer feet
Zane said > Is there any recommended method for cleaning up melted “rubber” feet on a > plastic case? > > I’m trying to determine if I can revive the VAXstation 4000/90 I received > from a list member, back around 1998 (it’s never worked). When I pulled it > out, I discovered that its feet have melted, and I’m assuming probably made a > mess on the disk enclosure for my VAXstation 3100 that it was on top of. Owing to it's common availability where I am, I use Double-D Eucalyptus Oil for that sort of cleaning task. It can be diluted with water as it's fairly strong. Once I used it full-strength on a tissue to clean the price label goo off CD jewel cases and it fogged the clear plastic a tiny bit, but after dilution it was fine. Steve
Re: LK201 emulator for PS-2 keyboard
Jonathan said > Just curious; have you thought of adding VSXXX-?? mouse emulation, using > input from either USB or PS/2 mouse? > With a mini-DIN output? These are becoming hard to find (aside perhaps from > our Australian member who mentions having them by the kg). Said Australian member here... I did indeed mention it. Here is a photo of exactly 3kg of DEC VSXXX-GA mice: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/VS-XXX-GA_mice_3kg.jpg I'm not sure what I'll do with them. I'll keep some for my pile of DEC workstations. Trade perhaps? I haven't tested them yet. Steve.
Re: In search of RK05 rack caddy
Fritz said > Okay, now that my 11/45 is up and running well, I could really make good use > of one of those rack caddiesfor RK05 packs to hold my most commonly used > system packs for different operating systems. Anybody have one they'd be > willing to sell/trade, or at least the DEC part number so I could try to track down some drawings? The rack for 14 RK05 cartridges was the DEC p/n H980-CC Disk Storage Rack, catalog# A-H980-CC. It required 17" of shelf mounting space and cost $33.25 in 1978, shipping weight 7 lbs. Two H980-CC's could fit one above the other in the H980-BA Media Storage Cabinet, Large (73"H x 38"W x 18-1/2"D). There were a number of other shelf and rack options: H980-CA Hanger Bar for Magtapes, H980-CB magtape storage rack), DECtapes (wireframe H980-CK or rollout drawer H980-H), RK06 Storage Rack (H980-CL), H980-CG Fixed Shelf for forms and punched cards, the H980-CN Data Binder Hanger for 14-7/8" printouts, the H980-CP Paper Hanger for 8-1/2" x 11" paper, the H980-CE Hanger Binder Frame for printout binders, the H980CH Divider Kit and the H980-CF Storage Drawer for utility storage. Also the H980-BB Small Storage Cabinet (61"Hx38"Wx18-1/2"D). Steve.
Re: Looking for video (or photos) depicting how to remove ASR 33 printer from keyboard
Bill said > I am looking for a video or photos that show how one removes the printer > from the keyboard safely on an ASR 33. I need to get to the underside of > the printer levers so I can re-align them. I am getting incorrect > characters when I type over half of the keys. I can see that a few levers > are out of whack or not seated correctly but I believe to get to them > properly I need to put the printer on its side or under a lift to get to > the underside. I am nervous about detaching the "H" shaped gizmo that > connects the keyboard to the printer. This video, Part 2 of a series by Jerry Walker seems to cover removing the keyboard from the printer pretty thoroughly, including how to take out the H piece: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w6VoPIp_wd4 Also I think Marc's videos cover it too. Steve.
Re: punching paper tape
Al said > the best picture i have at hand of what a ww tape looks like is on the right > of > http://bitsavers.org/bits/MIT/whirlwind/X4222.2008_Whirlwind_ptp/pictures/start_of_sort_20180724/8.JPG > > you can see it is narrower by one punch than a normal 8-channel tape OK that really seems to be 7/8" wide 7-level, even though the 1965 ECMA doc says 7-level is 1" ...?? So I just added a --whirlwind flag to ptap2dxf (and pushed it up) to make physical tape that looks like that photo. It doesn't yet do any protocol mapping or whatnot as I don't quite get the gist of the Whirlwind_Paper_Tape_Format.pdf C:\path\to>ptap2dxf --whirlwind --text="012ABC" --output=WW.DXF ++ | OO.| | OO. O| | OO. O | |O . O| |O . O | |O . OO| ++ Joiner : data byte absolute position 0006 C:\path\to>head -5 WW.DXF 0 SECTION 2 HEADER 9 . . . (And cut that tape DXF on a CNC stencil machine. I don't have my stencil cutter set up at this moment so I just printed it on paper and measured to confirm 7/8" wide, 7 data holes) But I suppose it's all a moot point if they don't have the original Whirlwind paper tape reader device to run it through :( Steve
Re: punching paper tape
Dwight said > I think it really depends on what reader he is putting it on. If it is a > standard newer 8 bit reader, the ASR33 punched tape is fine. > Dwight OK thanks for that. I just had a browse and read that "Whirlwind used the same paper tape format that was popular with Teletype machines" so I gather it's nothing special after all. Steve.
Re: punching paper tape
Guy said > You are correct, the Whirlwind tape was only seven tracks wide, with > the same pitch as what became eight-track tape. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/mit/whirlwind/Whirlwind_Paper_Tape_Format.pdf > > I'll admit that I was expecting it to be hard to find someone with an > eight-track punch and blank tape, without even trying for seven track... > There are a few of the original Flexowriters out there somewhere, but > I'm certainly not going to try using one. The tape is for "pedagogical" > purposes, so indeed seven would be better than eight, but eight will do > fine. > But if you can suggest a way to punch a seven track paper tape, I'm > glad to give it a try! Do you have some more detailed specs for Whirlwind tape? I can add it to ptap2dxf https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf It can do 8-level, 7-level, 5-level, Creed, USN Wheatstone, Morse, Teletype chadless and variations of those (mirrored, inverse, letters, sprocket hole any position etc) so another obscure format would be fun to add. Only a few of these have been physically tested mind you, as I don't have anything to read the odd ones with. Steve.
Re: ISO: Stabilization feet for DEC H960 rack
Josh said > I realize these are uncommon; curious if anyone has a spare pair somewhere > (hey, that rhymes.) I'd like to be able to pull out the CPU on my 11/70 > without worrying about the whole thing tipping over and crushing people I > care about. It's the little things, really... I made two pairs of repo ones that turned out beautifully. They have a welded steel bar load-bearing skeleton and adjustable pad like the original, and a 3D-printed shell sprayed in satin black that completes the aesthetics and follows the "six foot rule" in that they probably wouldn't be picked out from the originals from a few feet away. I have yet to machine the bolt head tapers to the originals but lost the photo of one that was posted here some time ago. I got a lot of help from cctalk on the dimensions of the foot a while back, but some of these are still a tiny bit inaccurate, but I can't expect the average person to have a surface table, height gauge, angle gauge etc. I was planning to make a few pairs for sale some day. If there was sufficient interest I can get to fabricating the cutting, bending and welding jigs to produce then more quickly than the completely hand-made ones I have done. The biggest problem is I'm not sure how much they would cost. Also I have not yet laser-cut the accompanying kick panel. I have the dimensions for that but I would rather measure one myself before committing to those. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/Stabiliser_feet_02.png http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/Stabiliser_feet_01.png Steve.
Re: Mystery (unusual) 1973 terminal
Jules said > Personally I like seeing terminals like this though because it seems that > so few have survived - people will preserve the DEC / HP / Tektronix > hardware and much of everything else from that very late '60s to mid-70's > period is long gone. I can't help either, but one place where pictures and descriptions of long-dead peripherals can be found are in the 'New Products' pages of DATAMATION. Every time I look through these I am amazed by the variety, type and number of manufacturers of gear eg. key-to-tape, high-speed line printers and other mundane yet expensive 1970s business equipment that was rarely advertised in later more consumer-oriented journals such as BYTE. Steve.
Re: Flip-Chip selloff (Al Kossow)
Antonio said > On 03/02/2021 22:22, John Foust via cctalk wrote: >> At 04:01 PM 2/3/2021, you wrote: >>> and I won't go into how disgusted I am with eBay's new seller payment system >>> they forced everyone into on the first of the month. >> A few months ago I sold on eBay some servers and NAS stuff for a client. >> I thought it would be easy to see the detailed financial breakdown... >> what it sold for, what came in, what was their cut, how much was shipping, >> what went to PayPal, etc. I couldn't find it for the life of me. >> > > The paypal bit is easy: look at your paypal account! The ebay part is OK > too: > >My Ebay->Summary. Account. Seller Account. All Account Activity. > > At least, in the UK, that works for me. Currently if I sell something > the buyer pays with Paypal and I then send the stuff. It can still be > reversed and I've not tried to empty my PayPal balance to see if it will > let me ... > > Shipping you need to track yourself (although if you use ebay for that > too then it might list it). In the case of the items OP's thread is pertaining to, perhaps it's a bit of a moot point for you in the UK and others on this international mailing list. They are clearly listed there (but not mentioned here AFAIK) with "Note, NO international shipping."
Re: Flip-Chip selloff
Chris said > I can pretty much support any of the Dec stuff, with all of the pdp11's > running now the next step is to get the 8/L working, then the 20. The > Perqs and other stuff will be re-homed or sold. > > But I'm not giving things to "museums". At this point between museums > blowing up, being shut down, selling "donations" on Ebay and literally > stealing stuff I have a bit of a bad taste in my mouth from so called > "museums". > > CZ Fair points... I've got about 80 or so R, W, S, A flip-chips and some 18" Negibus(?) cables perhaps I should do something about. And enough DEC workstation and DEC-compatible mice that I just weighed them in kg. Cataloging them would be a good start I guess. Also some other old flip-chip backplanes with more modules, and a 1968(?) DEC A/D converter and so on. I've traded some stuff for PDP-11-related items last year, and I would prefer to swap but I've found that notion does not sit well with some museums, to my surprise. Offers to claim as US tax write-offs isn't of any use to me here in Oz. Steve.
Re: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules
Noel said > (I said) > There is an 11/15 > > ??? Is that a typo for 'PDP-15'? The -11/15 looks just like an -11/20 > > https://www.ricomputermuseum.org/collections-gallery/equipment/dec-pdp-1115 > > except it only has 16 address switches, not 18 as on the /20. (The front panel > shown there has an OEM-specific re-paint; I couldn't quickly turn up an image > of a DEC /15 front panel.) Yes it was a typo sorry. I had meant to type 'PDP-15' but in my haste and having '11/15' on the brain (owing to the FOX 2 I have) I mistakenly typed that instead. Off-topic for this thread I guess, but, the FOX 2 has a two-tone green panel that are in the Foxboro corporate colours, these being different shades to the Lab(?) 11/20 on the wiki page. (Photo showing some of the FOX 2 switches at http://www.vcfed.org/forum/showthread.php?76489-reproduction-PDP-8e-toggle-switches/page2 ) If anyone ever sees a DECwriter in green then that would likely be a Foxboro one as well. I've also seen on eBay a front panel from a russian 11/15 clone, quite a crude manufacture.
Re: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules
Noel said > The "Spare Module Handbook" lists: > > ... > > MX11-B > > I apparently can't read. Should be "MX15-B": > > https://gunkies.org/wiki/MX15-B_Memory_Multiplexer Would that be part of this system at a Japanese computer museum? There is an 11/15 and the 11/05 has 'Unichannel15' on it: https://www.kcg.ac.jp/museum/en/computer/mini_computers/dec.html
Re: M688 Flip Chip Unibus Power Fail Driver Modules
> On Wed, Jan 6, 2021 at 5:24 PM Noel Chiappa via cctalk > wrote: >> Anyone need/want a couple of these? Someone has a group of 5 for sale on >> eBait >> (#184317666245), and I want a couple, but not _5_. The seller didn't respond >> to a request to split up the lot, so I'd like to go in with a couple of other >> people on the. Any takers? > > I'm a "maybe"... what are these found in? (I have quite a bit of early > 70s PDP-11 gear). > > -ethan It's not used in the PDP-11/15, that I can tell. I checked the 11/15 module utilisation diagram and it specifies the KP11-A M7217 and M7218 Power Fail and Restart modules, which my FOX2 does have installed. Steve.
Re: Systems Engineering Laboratories - SEL History
Al said > On 11/6/20 12:11 PM, Tom Uban via cctalk wrote: >> The ECL based logic was named "firebreather" for a reason. They were the >> fastest thing at the time. > > If you look at the Gould advertising at the time, it was a picture of a > fire-breathing dragon toasting a DEC salesman running away. The ad must have worked. Although our uni was the first in Australia to provide 11/780's for teaching and research, in later years third year comp sci was moved to a new Gould PN6080, because they got a good deal. Everyone just called it "the Gould". It's so hard to find a picture of this machine, a while ago I found an eBay ad for the PowerNode series which was about all I have. Steve.
Re: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?
> That is way smaller than the AGS. > Dwight > > > From: cctalk on behalf of Gavin Scott via > cctalk > Sent: Friday, October 16, 2020 6:04 AM > To: rice43 ; General Discussion: On-Topic and > Off-Topic Posts > Subject: Re: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? > > Or was it really just a calculator? The mode list in the ad kinda > suggests it wasn't programmable so the human operator may have been > required to be the program and the rest of the "system". > > On Fri, Oct 16, 2020 at 4:23 AM rice43 via cctalk > wrote: >> >> >> -- Original Message -- >> From: "Steve Malikoff via cctalk" >> To: cctalk@classiccmp.org >> Sent: Friday, 16 Oct, 2020 At 08:02 >> Subject: Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967? >> I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google >> newspapers and found an announcement >> and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by >> Control Data in 1967 and touted as >> "the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part >> is a 4" cube and the rest is the battery. >> It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967: >> https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C=19670920=frontpage=en >> <https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C=19670920=frontpage=en> >> It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS >> perhaps and would like to know a bit more >> about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2 >> Special Miniature Computer' and >> that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about >> the tech used, no doubt it used DIPs >> or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane? >> Steve. >> The only source i can see shows that prototypes were shipped to the US >> Military. I imagine, from the pretty limited instruction set shown on >> the article you linked, that it was primarily used for ballistics >> calculations for, say, missiles or mortars. Being what i assume was a >> military contract, i don't imagine many of these prototypes were made, >> and details would be classified. >> With the technology of the time, I can't imagine it had much memory even >> compared to other small machines like the PDP-8 and AGC. The limited >> instruction set would help keep the physical size down, but also limit >> it's usefulness in general applications. >> I'd suspect it was TTL based, like other (very) late 60's machines, with >> a very limited amount of core memory. >> https://insight.ieeeusa.org/articles/your-engineering-heritage-what-is-a-minicomputer/ Thanks for the comments everyone. That article, it's a good take on the origins of the minicomputer term. I could well imagine the editors of Datamation, upon hearing CD's term 'miniature computer' shortening it to 'mini-computer' for a snappier title for their 449 article. Also you're probably right about the intended use as a missile controller, the limited instruction set shown would have been adequate for that purpose at the time. I suppose I saw 'aerospace' and thought such a complex (for its physical size) machine would have been the preserve of spaceflight applications. Now this has just got me perusing old issues of Datamation ...some amazing forgotten pieces of technology to be found in there, like the Magnyx 4' x 3' flat panel magnetic non-volatile display from 1969. Wow!
Control Data 449 Special Miniature Computer from 1967?
I was idly browsing early editions of Computer World journal on Google newspapers and found an announcement and picture of the '449', an experimental aerospace computer built by Control Data in 1967 and touted as "the world's smallest computer" at 4" x 4" x 9", of which the logic part is a 4" cube and the rest is the battery. It's on page 3 of Computer World Sep 20 1967: https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=v_xunPV0uK0C=19670920=frontpage=en It seems to me it may have been an analogous machine to the Apollo AGS perhaps and would like to know a bit more about it, but I've only been able to find a brief mention of the '449-2 Special Miniature Computer' and that's it. Archive.org hasn't turned up anything. I'm just curious about the tech used, no doubt it used DIPs or flatpack micrologic and a tiny core plane? Steve.
Re: IBM 1130 simulator
Van said > In about 1974, for my senior undergraduate project, I wrote microcode > to convince a Varian V70 that it was actually an IBM 1130. > > Being substantially more modern hardware, it was much faster than a > real 1130. > > If anybody wants microcode and flow diagrams, and listings for the I/O > simulation (which ran in 620/f mode), I'm happy to send them. > > Van Snyder > van.sny...@sbcglobal.net It sounds interesting, if somewhat esoteric. Why not put it on Github? There it can be preserved (we hope), searched, perused, and by the curious, downloaded :) Steve
Re: What's the secret to LK201 leaf springs?
Tony said > On Sat, Sep 12, 2020 at 6:41 PM Adam Thornton via cctalk > wrote: >> >> I got an LK201 recently that was a little damaged in transit. A couple of >> the keycap assemblies and their corresponding leaf springs have come off. I >> can see how the leaf springs fit on the little posts on the keycap >> assemblies, and I can see where those snap into the board, but what I don’t see is how to get that put together and then keep it together while I turn it over and then get it in place.>> >> Clearly there is some simple trick I am missing. What is it? > > When it was made, those posts were much longer. After fitting the leaf > springs and fitting the unit to the membrane/chassis plate, the posts > were melted and formed over to make a large 'head' that held it all > together (this is commonly called heat staking). > > My guess is that the formed over part has broken off (you might find > some little white disks of plastic, about 1/8" diameter, rattling > about inside the case). Alas I have never found a way to re-fix them. > There's not enough plastic in the housing to drill it out and fit > screws/nuts. There is no way of gluing something to the ends of the > posts that would be strong enough, > > -tony > Perhaps using a 3D printed jig, I would set up the key post in a lathe collet and drill a sub-millimetre hole through the axis. Then glue a sliver of carbon fibre rod in, lastly mill some channels a few thou deep along the outside of the post for binding with a strand of de-braided Kevlar thread to hold the end on. A tiny drop of cyanoacrylate applied with a sharp toothpick keeps the Kevlar in place. The end cap would be drilled with the same drill. I've used this CF+Kevlar method for repairing a number of things where there is not enough surface area for adhesive alone and I am sure the repairs will outlast the items I've fixed. It takes some patience and a need to set up the job reasonably carefully. Steve.
Re: Bitsavers down?
Tom reckoned > Hmmm - I just tried a VPN into the US and the bitsavers website is up and > running. The IP address is the same, so it is not a DNS issue. > Al, is Bitsavers blocking some HTTP access from Australia? > Thanks > Tom Hunter > > > On Sun, Aug 30, 2020 at 3:15 PM Tom Hunter wrote: > >> What happened to www.bitsavers.org? >> It has been down for at least the past 24 hours. >> I can still ping the website, but http requests time out. >> The bitsaver domain name here in Australia resolves to 208.77.18.144. >> >> Thanks >> Tom Hunter Same for me, I'm also in Oz and bitsavers.org isn't accessible at the moment. I tried the IP address from nslookup (same as Tom) and got no result either. Tracert reports through to nocarrier.net (same IP as bitsavers) though. Steve.
Re: Alto II keyset connector plug identification
Wayne/Ian/Marc reckoned > This place has the 2de19p connectors in their catalog. > Kinda pricey though. > https://www.onlinecomponents.com/keywordsearch.aspx?text=2de19p=2 > > > On Aug 19, 2020, at 17:48, Ian Finder via cctalk > wrote: > > It's actually an ITT CANON ***2DE19P***, not a DE19 as Marc indicates. > > On Wed, Aug 19, 2020 at 1:48 AM Curious Marc via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > > We had the same problem. It’s a DE-19 connector, fits in the same envelope > has a DB-9, but 3 rows instead of 2. You can see in this video right around > here: https://youtu.be/GMp5EAq-Elo?t=541 . ITT-canon used to make these. > You can look them up on eBay, which is where we found ours. Make sure you > don’t get a two row DB-19, which is a completely different animal. > Marc Wayne, Ian, Marc, Thank you very much for pinning that one down for me so quickly. Yes they are fairly pricey, but at least that's a better price than Mouser. I had a thought, that if the pin spacing was on par with say a common 15-pin VGA male connector I could buy a bunch of dirt cheap Golden Dragon ones, set them up in the mill and run a high speed slitting saw diagonally between the pins (right though the block and metal surround in one go), and just add a plastic spacer to bump it out to the length of the 19-pin. After all there are only 6 pins used, and of those, just one (assuming common) that would be on the extended bit. Steve.
Alto II keyset connector plug identification
Would anyone be able to identify the 19 pin connector used on the Alto II keyset? Shown in the second photo on https://www.computerhistory.org/collections/catalog/X124.82C The Xerox engineering doc (209962B_Alto_II_Assembly_Keyset.pdf) has it as P/N DE51218-1 if I interpret it correctly. I've looked for a while and the closest I can find appears to be Mouser p/n 2DEF19P The cost of 136 USD (each!) is more than I (and perhaps everyone else) would really like to pay, and that's only for the male end. Ideally I would like a datasheet on this original connector if possible, to know the pin-pin spacing and the pressed metal surround dimensions. I've just ordered small trial quantities of screws, microswitches, e-clips, nutserts, rods and so on for my keyset lookalikes/workalikes. Also about to start the key mapping to F5-F9 using a popular small SOC board, which is small enough to be inside a custom printed shell that the keyset plugs into. That is, the 3-row 19-pin female connector side which goes through to USB. I was thinking there's no reason it shouldn't be able to work using the original connector with a real keyset-less Alto, should any such animal be lurking out there. Hence looking at the feasibility of placing in a 19 pin male-female connector arrangement rather than the fallback of straight-through to USB. The whole thing is still at prototype stage so even if it doesn't work out, well I will at least have a bunch of additions to my nuts/bolts/fasteners/switches stash. Thanks for any help, Steve.
Re: paper tape archiving
Paul said > On Jul 29, 2020, at 6:52 PM, Eric Moore wrote: > A couple notes: > 1) My reader when set to lower baud rates physically stops and starts the > reader. This jerks the tape and causes vibrations that can be severe at some > speeds. Some readers do this at all speeds. For example, any stepper motor is by definition a start/stop drive at any speed. Fast optical readers may run continuously if you let them, but that's worth a careful check. Especially since some of the high speed readers have very serious brake systems, good for their original application but not at all for our purposes. I've seen tape readers specified at 1000 cps or better that are capable of stopping at any point, starting up again, and reading the next character. So they are doing 100 inches per second and stopping within 1/20th of an inch. Ouch.The best kind of archival tape readers would have an adjustable tape path so you can read any of 5, 6, 7, or 8 channel tape. While 6 and 7 is uncommon it does exist. 6 is probably least interesting, at least the only application I know is typesetting, not computing. I've been thinking a newly constructed optical tape reader with continuous motion (no brakes), capstan drive, and slow ramp start/stop would be ideal and with today's technology quite easy to make. My EECO does this, runs the tape through in short bursts and buffers it so not much point in trying to go easy on the tape by running it at a low baud rate. Paul's reader idea sounds fine. I have a super simple idea, how about a 3D-printed guide with a geared hand crank and a bracket for attaching a mobile phone looking down at the tape running through the guide below it. Then set it to record video and crank away at a steady rate. The crank has a meter or moving widget to add additional means of tracking. At a later stage some video processing could read the pattern from the video. There would undoubtedly be a python library for that. It would capture the label and other labelling nicely too. Steve.
H960 repo stabiliser feet redux
Here's my conclusion to the H960 stabiliser feet thread from a while ago where I was after measurements of the originals. And thanks for all the help from cctalk (especially Noel) who supplied dimensions and photos. I finished these last year but moved on to other projects and hadn't returned to the list to discuss them, so I am doing that now. I made a pair each for my two H960's. The feet consist of welded steel load-bearing frames with a C-profile that fits snugly onto the H960 base, a lower leg from a shelf bracket and a support strut. The leg is located by a steel bolt. The bolt has the head machined to a disc, I was going to turn the taper and machine the slot but I lost the photo of the original bolt that a listmember had posted so I left them at that. They could do with nickel electroplating sometime. The frame is super strong, although I have not physically loaded them to any great extent. The outer end has a threaded adjustable pad the same size (AFAIK) as the originals, which are still available. I found some correct size el-cheapo ones at the hardware store that did the job just fine. The frame is threaded for the pad post and a nut on the pad then locks the pad from turning. The outside aesthetics are taken care of with a 3D printed hollow shell modelled from the measurements of the original casting. It slides onto the leg and is secured by the bolt. The shell CAD model still needs some work to get the fit and front holes right, and a few other things but overall they look fine and obey the 6 foot rule. A few coats of satin black enamel helps hide the print layering a bit. Photo showing the frame (spray finished in silver epoxy primer, what I had at hand), the other frame inside a shell, and some of the test shells: http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/Stabiliser_feet_01.png As attached to one of the H960s. (I have yet to do the kick panel, may laser cut that sometime): http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/500/Stabiliser_feet_02.png Steve.
Re: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC
Peter said > Uncle Clive had been making dubiously-cheap electronics using equal measures > of > ingenious design and cutting one corner too many since the 1970s, so he was > well-placed to clean up in the more tight-fisted end of the UK computer > market. He'd been doing that since the 1960's with classy-looking miniature amplifiers and impossibly small pocket radios. I remember as a young kid drooling over the Sinclair Micro-6 advertised in the late 60s UK 'Practical Electronics' magazines my dad collected. I had absolutely no idea how much "59/6" was, in Australian dollars, but I was sure it was way more than all the pocket money savings I had. And how would I go about ordering something from the other side of the world, even if I could afford it. Steve.
Re: Microsoft open sources GWBASIC
Richard said
> You know, reading about this made me dig out the info I had on the Character
> Oriented Windows ("COW") library. I was reading some of the docs and it
> occurred to me that it operated much like Windows (probably Windows 1), but
> what I couldn't find were any "sample" programs or tools to build a
program based on the COW library. Does anyone have/know of a sample program
that used the library? Was there an SDK for it or was it used only for
Microsoft's products?
Reading this just reminded me of Visual Basic for MSDOS, which had a windowing
system for the 80x25 IBM monochrome
adapter. I purchased it in 1992 but didn't use it very much, but I just dug it
out of the back of a cupboard for a look.
One of the manuals says "Visual Basic provides a complete development
environment for MS-DOS applications. You can
design the windows, dialog boxes, menus, command buttons, option buttons and
other interface elements for a application."
Visual Basic for MSDOS was compatible with QBasic and QuickBasic and even had a
forms designer. The diagrams of the
character UI screens in it are very similar visually to Windows 2, they sure
made heavy use of the box drawing characters.
Steve.
Re: SMS Data Gathering App Announcement
Jay said > The application was/is developed in C# under Visual Studio 2017 to run > under Windows, primarily because I was interested in trying out C#. I > would expect it to build in VS 2019 with little or no change, but have > not tried it. It builds under VS2019 but I needed to add the Nuget package for MySql.Data to fix the references up, and also changed the connection string a little. I also should have looked at the contents of the directory a little more closely as I did not see the .sql.gz there initially, and ended up converting the proprietary LarryWare .mwb file to .sql and then wondering why there was no example data when I ran it.. After noticing the compressed db, unzipped and scripted it in and it all loaded up. The importing is a bit flaky for one or two types but wow, what an amazing project, that is a huge amount of work you've put into it! I guess one day it could be extended to cover SLT too???!!! :) Great job Jay. Steve
Re: LK201 emulation
Sophie said > I would absolutely be interested in this - while I'd love to use original > hardware where possible, it's not always easy to get peripherals at the same > time as machines. A long term dream of mine is to build some sort of > general-purpose box that can make connections to arbitrary vintage computer keyboard/mouse/video ports, and connect in to modern HDMI & USB peripherals to make it easier to just pull a machine off the shelf and get going. There is a project that seems to be going along the same idea, http://www.kbdbabel.org/ Steve.
Re: PDF of FANUC TAPE READER A860-0056-T020 Manual Wtd.
> Here is the Ebay auction, I hope the manual is included assuming the 50-pin > port is the output port. > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/GUARANTEED-GOOD-USED-FANUC-TAPE-READER-A860-0056-T020/392104833775?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2057872.m2749.l2649 Perhaps try the IndustryArena CNC forum at https://www.cnczone.com/ they have some FANUC postings there at the moment. Steve.
Re: Odd punched cards
Mike and Peter reckoned >> The systems that I'm familiar with that used EPCs were Burroughs 'E' series >> accounting computers; the readers and perforators handled both PPT and EPCs >> and the cards were a sort of random-access PPT. >> >> [PVP: ] I am having problems finding info on these two types of cards: EPT >> and EPC. Can you point me in the right direction? The paper tape reader for the SCM Typetronic 2816 could read a form of edge-punched card but presumably these weren't compatible with anything else apart from the ones it produced with its own 'Vertipunch' unit. See page 22 of the operator handbook: https://archive.org/details/scmtypetronic2816operatorhandbook/page/n21/mode/2up I do have this tape/EPC reader (no cards unfortunately) and can take some pics if anyone's interested. Steve.
Re: paper tape reader EECO "The Director"
Bill said > Per my post from last week, after checking out the Decitek readers I ended > up getting a used by warrantied EECO "The Director" MT-82 tape reader with > a short-height spool for a good price. > > Here is the manual. > http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/eeco/DOC10006_EECO_MT-82_MTS-82_Mar82.pdf > > Anyone use this unit? I saw some youtube video display how the servos > appear to treat the tape kindly, that was a selling point. Not as > interested in speed as that's not the point, eh? I have one. It reads in short sharp bursts even at the lowest baud rate. I suspect it's just buffering and adding a pause before the next read. The spindle motors are really high torque and fast. I have only tried it with my home made tapes and a couple old tapes, the sprocket is enough power alone to pull the tape through very easily. I made up an output hopper from a sheet of cardboard, some pieces of corflute, three pieces of 30x10x220mm wood and a piece of perspex on the front so I could check the tape was fanfolding correctly. This has a hole at the top and hangs on the spindle, the reader is placed on the edge of the bench so the hopper can hang below it. It's only a prototype hopper for a nicer design that can sit on/below the MTS-82 whilst it's racked in an H960 (which it is now). Steve.
Re: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram?
Hugh said > I've cut Mylar tape with a Glowforge laser. It cuts very nicely but the > alignment is a major hassle, plus you can only cut ~15" of tape which > doesn't go very far. Not worth the effort. If you were to build a custom > linear drive it might work. But also very slow. That's very interesting. I had thought the smaller home shop lasers were generally for cutting perspex and thin plywood, rather than mylar sheet. Can your laser software import a DXF? If so I can send you a DXF of a test tape (in 15" segments) if you are interested, I would very much like to see the result. Steve.
Re: DIY Paper Tape Punch - Mechanism diagram?
Anders said > I've had a paper tape reader for a while but never had a punch to make new > tapes, and the ones i've found are not only very large but also very > expensive. So I'm toying with the idea of making an open-source punch, but > I can't find any detailed diagrams of how the mechanism works. > > I'm assuming (without any data to back it up) that there is a cam, an array > of spring-levered pins, and horizontal spacers controlled by solenoids that > bridge the gap between the cam and each punch pin when called for. > > Does anyone have insight into how reliable/fast paper tape punches work? The idea behind the paper tape punch is that the solenoids themselves don't supply the force to do the actual punching, they instead set up the punch pins which are then driven by a cam by a motor with a lot of grunt. I suppose it's like the mechanical equivalent of a transistor switching on by applying a small base current. The once-popular Roytron punch mechanism is described in http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/roytron/Roytron500_1966.pdf and may be what you are looking for. It's somewhat comparable to how the keyboard mechanism operates in a Selectric typewriter where interposers drop into place and the cam profile on the filter shaft drives them forward. Or a Creed teleprinter keyboard with toothed code bars that suspend lateral bars being moved with mechanical force. I've also thought about a home made punch that might be built using the Teletype punch blocks that have been on eBay, augmented with a bit of machining, motor and some 3D-printed parts such as the frame. But that's still just a bunch of ideas at present. As for making tape by means other than a punch, if you have a home vinyl/stencil cutting machine you can make working paper tapes using my ptaf2dxf utility https://github.com/1944GPW/ptap2dxf It's very slow compared to a real punch and on the standard 12" x 12" cutting mat these machines are supplied with, there will be a number of short tape segments cut that then need to be glued together. But, as a novelty, it works :) Steve.
Re: tape baking
Al reckoned > On 4/29/20 10:01 PM, Curious Marc via cctalk wrote: >> Or replacing the posts with ones machined from Teflon or Delrin? > > The posts are staked in. You might be able to make tiny rollers to go over > the pins > Their working diameter isn't super critical That's a good idea. Would cutting sections of an (empty) ink tube from a ballpoint pen work? These are generally polypropelene and should be totally inert. Steve.
Re: Wanted, Papertape Reader for Archiving Tapes
Bill said > Hi - COVID project I have been attempting to read some old Honeywell > DDP-516 papertapes using the OP-80A or Teletype reader but it's inefficient > and I don't want to damage the tapes. Does anyone have a reliable > papertape reader for sale, or recommend one currently out there on Ebay, I have an EECO MT-82 (manual on bitsavers), and it's ok but pulls the tape through in short sharp bursts rather than a continuous smooth action, even on the lowest baud rate. I have the serial version, there is a separate I/O board for serial and parallel. For some reason the right-hand spindle always runs, perhaps the driver transistor logic has some problem. I don't use the spindles anyway as I have no reels (I am designing 3D printed ones) but the spindle speed is way too fast for old tapes anyway, I think. With the OP-80A you could try rigging up a small motor to pull the tapes through at slow speed, say a LEGO Technic M size motor driving LEGO tires through a simple gearbox. And build up some sort of tape guide from LEGO as well. Steve.
Wake-on-LAN, teletype style
I've started scanning a few more of the BHP docs I recovered a while back, and thought this one was interesting. A 1973 gizmo that buffers just enough received data for a relay to close and power up a teleprinter's motor to operating speed before printing, apparently half a second was sufficient it reckons. The buffering is through a pair of 64 x 4-bit Fairchild 3341 FIFO memory chips. https://archive.org/details/utec-bmc-6092-buffered-idle-line-motor-control-for-asr-33-teletype-instruction-manual One of the other docs mentions they had an ASR33 with this buffered motor control installed connected to PDP-11/10. Steve.
Re: pdp11/05 key?
Tom said > Does anyone have information on having a replacement PDP-11/05 key made? > > --tnx > --tom There is a bloke in France(?) who can apparently do them https://sites.google.com/site/conservatique/keys I managed to borrow one and my local Mister Minit keycutter had no trouble matching the blank. It is a very short key and the pattern is very simple, you could probably file one down if it matches the cross section. I could take some close-up photos of my working copy (I posted the original back to its owner) if you really needed them. Steve.
Re: Good picture of a S360.
Marc reckoned > Yeah, a 360/50. When all the tapes are organized and color matched to the > computer, you know it’s just a photo-op of a fake data center, or at best a > real one with many hours of preparation for a beauty shot. Nice picture > though! It could be the 'white room'. This was a windowless machine room IBM set up for marketing and product photography of their systems in the 1960s. I think it was located in NY. There was only a paragraph or two about the white room in (IIRC) the book 'The Interface: IBM and the Transformation of Corporate Design' by John Harwood. There happened to be a copy in the Uni of Queensland bookshop a couple years ago. I spotted it on the shelf and thumbed through it at the time, but it had so little on what interested me (and I suspect cctalk readers) relative to the cost I didn't buy it so I'm only going on memory here. Steve.
Re: What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console?
> On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 10:51 AM Chuck Guzis via cctalk < >> Will's right - the 16-bit register display should have been a tipoff. >> >> See http://www.dvq.com/1800/1800.htm for lots of images. >> 1800->industrial control version of the 1130. >> >> --Chuck >> > Thank you, I will update how I have it documented on the web site. I have > a lot of 1800 docs, maybe I can find the actual hardware there. > Bill Thanks everyone. I saw the 360 black and chrome knobs and black tipped switches and started searching '360' things, hence the question. Steve.
What is this System 360 peripheral/maintenance console?
I was watching this video on highway construction in the 1960's (as you do) and noticed what appears to be a System 360 console, that I couldn't place. Presumably it's some peripheral or CE maintenance panel. I didn't find it in the Physical Planning Guide (not that that's comprehensive) nor from perusing google images. I'm a little curious as to what it is. It's at 23:13 in https://youtu.be/apWSa6QlrTg?t=1393 Thanks Steve.
Re: Wire list for the RKV11-D Qbus RK05 controller backplane anywhere?
Noel said > > From: Jay Jaeger > > Yeah, info does seem to be scarce. Not even in my LEVAX fiche set. > > My fiche set has the Technical Manual, and also (in the wirelist > section) the wirelist. > > Not sure how to get it to you, though. I stuck it in my industrial-grade > scanner at its highest resolution; no go. I suppose I could take photos > of it displayed on my fiche reader? > > Or is there some device I can buy which is less than a zillion dollars which > can scan fiche? There are a number of things in my set (e.g. the BA11-N Tech > Manual) which aren't online, and would be useful to have. > > > That fourth card (M7268) is apparently a connector card for the Q-Bus > > and drive bus. > > Yes, but actually there are 6 cards: the M7269 is a dual card which goes > into the QBUS backplane, and the M993-YA which goes into the first RK05, > to convert from the two flat cables which come from the M7268. > > > From: Al Kossow > > > Also, it is only 18 bits. > > Actually, only 16-bit DMA addresses, I'm pretty sure. > > Noel Wow, that would be great. Would a camera with a Bowden cable trigger set up on a tripod in a darkened room be sufficient for imaging the fiche reader screen? I know it wouldn't be Bitsavers quality but any doc is better than no doc. Also I'm ok with the RKV11 being 16 bit, my Qbus CPUs only extend to an LSI-11/2 and 11/03 board with 4KW anyway. Steve.
Wire list for the RKV11-D Qbus RK05 controller backplane anywhere?
Would anyone know whether there is a backplane wire list diagram anywhere for the RKV11-D Qbus RK05 controller like the one on eBay a few days ago? I didn't get that one but I have a pair of NOS H803 4x dual-height socket blocks kicking around that I guess could be wire wrapped into a replica RKV11 backplane as a rainy day project, not that I have the special module that replaced one of the Unibus boards but I'll keep looking. Info on this controller seems pretty scarce apart from the description in one of the handbooks. Thanks for any help, Steve.
Re: Unidentified peripheral in Tektronix PDP-11/20 system
Thanks everyone for the comments. I think Jay's notion it might be a chart recorder sounds plausible, and the images of vintage recorders Mr Google has found for me seem to be types that might have fitted the upper right rectangular area. I know it is not a good picture but it seems there might be two pen needles at the the bottom edge of the rectangle. As has been noted, cctalk brings out some great anecdotes. I'm glad it's back up, I miss it when it's not. Steve
Unidentified peripheral in Tektronix PDP-11/20 system
I was idly browsing some old electronics magazines on archive.org and saw this Tektronix testing system from 1972 that clearly has an 11/20 and TU-56. Just curious as to what the piece of gear is sandwiched between the two. It sort of looks like a paper tape reader, but for the two white buttons or whatever they are at the lower right and the white bit at top right. It seems to be in a DEC bezel(?) It doesn't seem to match the bespoke Tek gear at right which looks quite different. I'm guessing it really is just a paper tape reader. http://www.surfacezero.com/g503/data/4173/Tektronix_S-3260_automated_test_system_PDP-11_20_Electronic_Design_23Nov1972_reduced.png Thanks in advance. Steve
Re: FW: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free
> On 12/15/2019 01:19 AM, Dave Wade via cctalk wrote: >> I wonder if there is any interest here... >> >> -Original Message- >> From: greenkeys-boun...@mailman.qth.net >> On Behalf Of John Lawson >> Sent: 10 December 2019 17:41 >> To: greenk...@mailman.qth.net >> Subject: [GreenKeys] DURA Selectric ASR terminals free >> >> >> Greetings List! >> >> I have a couple of "DURA" Selectric ASR terminals. I also have some limited >> documentation on them. Neither of them work as far as I know. I tried to run >> the one in the pic when I first got it, but it's jammed - so on the shelf it >> went. >> >> They appear to be an 8-level code, dunno if ASCII, EBCDIC, or what. > The punched tape is EIA, I think. There are diode matrices > to convert to the internal Selectric code of rotation and > tilt of the ball. I had one of these hooked to a CP/M > system back around 1980, I used it exclusively as a printer. > > I could likely dig out some code that sent the data to > them. A quick look did not turn up the interface. > I seem to recall it had some pretty weird logic levels, PNP > Germanium transistors, etc. > > It is possible to trip too many solenoids at one time and > command the rotate or tilt summing levers to exceed the > limits of the ball. That will break bands on the carriage. > I had no problem getting replacement parts when I had that > happen on mine. Not too sure Selectric parts are available > anymore. > > Jon > > >> These are joining the ever-expanding list of "Projects Never to be >> Completed", so if anyone is interested, lemme know. >> >> They are free, you pay shipping, they are about 50 pounds each and will >> require some thoughtful packing. >> >> Local pickup is happily offered, and I could possibly be bribed into >> delivering them within a day's drive of Carson City (weather permitting). >> >> >> Cheers >> >> John KB6SCO >> >> Carson City Interfacing the Dura 1041 is very well covered in the book 'THE SELECTRIC INTERFACE A Hands-on Approach' by George Young. There are whole chapters on the Dura 1041 printer, encoding the Dura eyboard, interfacting the punch, tape reader and more. Steve.
Re: Key for IBM 9370 - 20
Fred said > For $60 or $70 on eBay, you can get the KLOM tubular key cutter. It is > similar, but not the same as the more expensive HPC TKM-90 "Pocket Cut-Up" > > > With a little careful work, you CAN cut them with a drill press. The barrel key sounds like something that could be done in OpenSCAD, parametrically, and printed in metal from Shapeways. For instance they have a 60% steel / 40% bronze mix as well as others.
Re: UniBone: Linux-to-DEC-UNIBUS-bridge, year #1
Joerg said >>> *What it is:* >>> In case you forgot: UniBone is a plugin board to DEC PDP-11 UNIBUS >>> systems containing a BeagleBone Black. >>> >>> See http://retrocmp.com/projects/unibone. Is it possible to get it as a "kit+" where the SMD components only are already soldered onto the bare board, but all the rest left for those who are ok with a normal soldering iron but not confident on doing the SMD?
Re: Discord
J said Discord is great for real time text chat back and forth. There are also audio and video channels if people want to use that to talk verbally or via video. > > I’d rather not turn this into a long debate of whether discord is good or bad > or anything like that. I’m just saying it’s there, and it’s quicker to get > ahold of me that way at times. I'm not sure if the feature of more real-time conversation on Discord would be of much if any benefit to me. Since I am at +10 GMT most of the conversation on cctalk already happens during the small hours here, so in the morning I have the bulk of the day's worth of US/Europe timezoned postings to browse through with questions posed and already answered in numerous followups (and 'For Sale' items well and truly snapped up :) If I was on after midnight local time, I guess it might be useful and I should take a look at it, but so far I'm pretty happy with cctalk as it is now. Steve.
Re: Remex reader/punch PDP-11 interface board manuals on eBay
Paul said > I have a few of the boards, If anyone is interested, I can find them and > post the part numbers. > I think they made a few for PDP-8s, and if so, I could have a few of those. > > Paul > > On Tue, Nov 12, 2019 at 5:15 PM Steve Malikoff via cctalk < > cctalk@classiccmp.org> wrote: > >> Just wondering if anyone on the list is going after these 1973 Remex >> manuals for the PDP-11 interface >> to their reader/punch units? >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092453978 >> >> https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092431915 >> >> I have two of the reader-only version of this board I bought relatively >> cheap off eBay some years ago >> and would be happy to trade or pay for a scanned copy if required. As I >> don't have a Remex reader/punch >> it would save me bidding up the price unnecessarily. >> >> Steve. Paul, It should be easy to differentiate: the manual for the PDP-8 version is on bitsavers and it shows the ribbon connectors at the top left, on the board. The PDP-11 version has them along the edge of the board as shown on the eBay pics. Steve
Remex reader/punch PDP-11 interface board manuals on eBay
Just wondering if anyone on the list is going after these 1973 Remex manuals for the PDP-11 interface to their reader/punch units? https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092453978 https://www.ebay.com/itm/274092431915 I have two of the reader-only version of this board I bought relatively cheap off eBay some years ago and would be happy to trade or pay for a scanned copy if required. As I don't have a Remex reader/punch it would save me bidding up the price unnecessarily. Steve.
Re: Yahoo Groups going away
Jim said > On 10/17/2019 6:52 PM, Cameron Kaiser via cctalk wrote: Yeah, it sucks. The Tomy Tutor users group has been there for years, and I guess we'll jump over to groups.io. I managed to archive everything last night. >>> What's your strategy for archiving material off YahooGroups? Their Files and >>> Photo (photostreams) sections are so heavily Javascript-encrusted that it's >>> not at all easy to bulk archive from them. I tried a few tools (httrack, >>> wget, >>> curl) with no valid results, but I only used some basic settings. >> For the messages, I used >> >> https://github.com/andrewferguson/YahooGroups-Archiver >> >> Unfortunately, the (rather inadequate) Y!G API for files makes it difficult >> to iterate over files in a directory tree. I ended up manually downloading >> them, since it was only about 30 files and not worth ginning up something >> to scrape them. Some people have used >> >> https://github.com/csaftoiu/yahoo-groups-backup > I didn't get that to work. Has anyone here got suggestions? Contact off > list. It is getting errors, and I spent about an hour trying to figure > it out. > > every issue was a bug in either Python that was unresolved, or the tools > they were using, not errors in the tool, so I'm not really interested in > a lot more debugging. > > I suspect it ran at some point, maybe I've got the wrong versions of > some sort. > > thanks > Jim >> to get everything but it needs a MongoDB instance which seemed kind of >> overkill for a one-time dump. I set it up with python 3.7.3, pip installed the required modules such as Selenium, installed geckodriver for Firefox (but I don't run Firefox on this machine, I use a popular fork) and it emitted an error that referes to Selenium not being the correct match to Firefox. I have other things to do so that's where I left it for now, will try it out again sometime soon with an earlier actual Firefox. Steve.
Re: Yahoo Groups going away
Cameron said > Yeah, it sucks. The Tomy Tutor users group has been there for years, and I > guess we'll jump over to groups.io. I managed to archive everything last > night. What's your strategy for archiving material off YahooGroups? Their Files and Photo (photostreams) sections are so heavily Javascript-encrusted that it's not at all easy to bulk archive from them. I tried a few tools (httrack, wget, curl) with no valid results, but I only used some basic settings.
Re: Systems Engineering Laboratories SEL 810a Mainframe For Sale
Thomas said > I am taking offers on an SEL 810a mainframe computer. It includes three > cabinets, a Teletype Model 33 ASR, as well as a vintage wooden box filled > with spare cards. This machine was installed in 1969 and retired in 2006. > It is in excellent condition. It has a front panel with blinkenlights, and > one of the cabinets has a Nixie tube numerical display. I have shared > pictures of the main cabinet and the spare parts box at the following link. > https://photos.app.goo.gl/Ebc3Aj5zmgXjFosR7 The Digitronics paper tape reader in it is same as the PDP-7 reader, and only a very tiny cosmetic change from the Foxboro FOX-2 reader. Seeing the shiny bit on the output side I'm guessing there should be the two brushed stainless steel hoppers with six-sided front cutouts for the input and output, is anything like this around? Steve.
pull-out console tables Re: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay
> There's a cheap General Automation SPC 16/45 on eBay that someone needs > to get. It's for pickup only > in Royal Oak, MI otherwise I would go for it. Includes a disk drive. > Looks like it needs to be gone in a week. > See: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Automation-1972-SPH-45-16-Minicomputer-Console/323932770200?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 > > Bob One other interesting thing I recall with the SPC-16 was that it had a < 1RU-high pull-out table for putting a manual on when toggling. IIRC this is the grey panel/bar immediately below the console as shown in the eBay photos. It seemed a really great idea but I've not seen any similar programmer console benches in other 70s minicomputers, although a 1978 DEC catalog I have shows they had one available as part no. A-H950-G for the H960. The line drawing seems to show it folds down rather than slides in like the GA one.
Re: General Automation SPC 16 on eBay
Bob said > There's a cheap General Automation SPC 16/45 on eBay that someone needs > to get. It's for pickup only > in Royal Oak, MI otherwise I would go for it. Includes a disk drive. > Looks like it needs to be gone in a week. > See: > > https://www.ebay.com/itm/General-Automation-1972-SPH-45-16-Minicomputer-Console/323932770200?ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT&_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649 > > Bob I had an identical GA SPC-16, except mine had two Western Dynex 6000 drives with packs similar in appearance to RL02's (I don't think they were, just looked the same). Also had two card readers and an ASR33 and it had DBOS(?) Disk/Drum OS. The decks of cards had calculations for grains and cereals as it was installed at a breakfast cereal manufacturer. With the help of an old schoolfriend and his dad we lugged the machine down a few flights of narrow stairs in a block of flats (there was no lift), into a trailer for the cross town trip and back to my place (another flat) at the time. It was fairly heavy, although taking the drives out helped a bit. Steve
S100 2716 programmer was Re: IBM MST extender cards
I thought I might have had some notes of the S100 2716 eprom programmer I mentioned (dad just called it the eprom burner) somewhere, and sure enough I did. I'm surprised they didn't go along with all the peripherals and doco when the S100 machine was sold sometime in the late 80s. It's on foolscap paper, an unwieldy paper size nowadays and I don't miss it. The burning code is 5 pages of z80 assembly, a few 2716 write timing diagrams, miscellaneous wiring diagrams and a rough block diagram of the thing, which I have just scanned here. It used an 8255 PPI: http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/S100_2716_eprom_burner/S100_2716_programmer_block_diagram_sketch.png Steve
Re: IBM MST extender cards
Jon said > On 10/11/2019 03:50 AM, jim stephens via cctalk wrote: >> >> >> On 10/10/2019 10:49 AM, Al Kossow via cctalk wrote: >>> https://www.ebay.com/itm/352810055470 >>> >>> are these extender cards for IBM MST modules? >> > Oh, and by the way, that is an UNWRAPPING tool in the > picture, not a wire-wrap tool. (I have both.) > > Jon > Aha, thanks for clearing this up. We definately had this tool on the bench when doing the eprom programmer, I think we also had another one or two that had a spinning end, like a pin vise arrangement, they might have been blue, or we used blue wire. It was so long ago now. Steve
Re: IBM MST extender cards
Mark said > On Fri, Oct 11, 2019 at 10:16:34AM +1000, Steve Malikoff via cctalk wrote: >> That wire wrap tool is identical to one my dad had in his CE toolkit > > I ... should take it from this that people don't just *own* these anymore? > > This was an "essntial device" in my younger engineering days. Sigh. > > Yes, I still have it. Yes, I have used it (albeit not recently). Yes, > I have used the Gardner-Denver electric tool as well, although in those > days I never could have afforded it. I am not sure whether you meant "don't just own" or "just don't own", but the last time we used it was to wire wrap a 2716 eprom programmer S-100 board we designed (ok, he designed, but I helped build it) back in about 1981/82 or so. I haven't seen or thought of it since then, but seeing it in the photo instantly brought back the memory of it. I have some of the tools, others have gone missing, for instance the large tool bag at the rear of the first photo on https://slx-online.biz/hursley/ce-data-list.asp?hur_archive=2 But I do still have the tool bag identical to the one in the foreground, in the same russet brown colour but the zipper canvas has dry rotted.
Re: IBM MST extender cards
Al said > https://www.ebay.com/itm/352810055470 > > are these extender cards for IBM MST modules? > > Very nice, great find. That wire wrap tool is identical to one my dad had in his CE toolkit (now lost unfortunately). Are there any other markings on it apart from the IBM p/n?
FTGH VME Microsystems VMEbus DMA interface card manual
VME Systems VMEbus DMA Interface card manual. 1991 reprint from 1986. About 100+ pages, schematic, asm test routines http://web.aanet.com.au/~malikoff/blah/ I didn't see it on bitsavers. I don't have any VMEbus gear so no point it taking up space here. Yours for postage from Brisbane, Oz. Steve.
Re: OT: shortening eBay URLSs (Was: IBM PT-2
Guy said > Or to just the item number: > 253997593352 > > Assuming your browser is going to expand typing eb to ebay.com, then you > enter the item number in the ebay search box. > > Guy > > At 08:45 PM 21/08/2019 -0700, you wrote: >>A small off-topic trivial tip: >>That URL can be reduced to: >> >>https://www.ebay.com/itm/253997593352 Entering 'ebay 253997593352' into a search engine also works for me. Steve
Re: MULTIPROCESSING FOR THE IMPOVERISHED Part 1: a 6809 Uniprocessor
Ben said > Where are all the articles about a TTL designed computer? > Yes I know about (Homebuilt CPUs ring) but that is mostly > today. What about the Late 70's and Early 80's? Well there's the EDUC-8, based on the PDP-8 instruction set and was published from 1974 to 1975 by Electronics Australia magazine, followed by a number of articles on building peripherals. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/EDUC-8 I have all the original magazine issues for it, but you can get them all in book form from Silicon Chip magazine these days https://www.siliconchip.com.au/Shop/3 Steve.
Re: Scanning question (Is destruction of old tech docs a moral crime?)
Paul etc said >> On Jul 21, 2019, at 12:16 PM, Jon Elson via cctalk >> wrote: >> >> On 07/21/2019 05:16 AM, Joseph S. Barrera III via cctalk wrote: >>> What dpi qualifies as not "crappy"? 300dpi? 400? 600? >>> >>> >> Most of the text of these documents don't need super high resolution. But, >> some contain hand-drawn schematics where an 11 x 17 original has been shrunk >> to 8.5 x 11" and hand-written signal labels and part types are VERY small. >> These need to be scanned at high resolution, with several retries while adjusting the image threshold to make things readable.> > Another example that might call for higher than normal resolution is oddball > text, where subtle distinctions need to be visible. An example of this can > be found in the scans in the Knuth archive of the THE operating system > sources. Those are line printer listings printed with a typical medium-worn ribbon -- that's bad enough. But the printer is upper case only printing mixed-case source material. That was handled in that OS by overprinting upper case letters with periods. In a clean original printout that's easy enough to see, but the scans seem to be about 300 dpi and with that the overprints are often not easy to see. Since the source text is case sensitive this can be a problem... I've just put up some oddball text, in this case a few pages of handwritten notes on the main features of FPL. This was a concurrent task process-control language for the FOX 2, Foxboro's rebadged PDP-11/15 they sold in the early-mid 70's. I think the notes were written about 1975 or so by someone at the BHP steelworks where the computer was controlling the fire prevention system in the oxygen plant. As if the foolscap paper size wasn't a nuisance, the notes are in HB pencil and are _very_ light, in fact I could only read them properly after I scanned it as TIFFs. The information density on the pages is very low so 150 dpi worked well enough. I could have spent ages painting out the speckle but it's not worth it, I just wanted it up as I've not found anything else about FPL anywhere: https://archive.org/details/foxboroprogramminglanguagenotes Also the brochure on FPL. I did this at 300dpi to TIFF and then output as 8-bit png due to the basic colours they used (pretty much black, brown and orange tones). I am happy with the result here too: https://archive.org/details/fox210minisystem Steve.
Re: UNIVAC IBM AND APOLLO - -History --Background
Ed said > Great > info!https://www.zdnet.com/article/to-the-moon-ibm-and-univac-appollo-11s-integrators/?ftag=TREc64629f=46856739 > Here's an all-employees memo my dad kept about IBM's part in the success of the mission: https://archive.org/details/IBMAustraliaMessageToEmployeesApollo11Success BTW archive.org is a great place to put up scanned documents, in as many dpi as you like. Steve
AGC software bloat 'what if' musing
It's well documented that in 1967 or so the AGC code was bloated (amongst other problems) and looked like it was not going to be ready in time for the landings, so much so that NASA sent in Bill Tindall to MIT to kick heads. Could they perhaps have given the under-pressure programmers some breathing space - a contingency - by carrying another set of ropes with the excess (return mission) code on them, whilst still working on the all-in-one set? That is, fly to the moon with everything required up to P65 etc then once on the surface, exchange the rope modules for the return software and throw the first rope set out onto the surface to save weight. Power cycling the AGC in flight was possible and even done later on Apollo 13 and surely they would have done this in simulations. And they could presumably have left the IMU running and aligned, as sufficient power was available? Steve
Apple ][ EPROM programmer Re: Lots of Apple 1 computers @ VCF West
Guy said > I just _love_ being reminded of the circumstances of my NOT buying an Apple > I, and what that mistake cost me. > > http://everist.org/NobLog/20181001_missing_wave.htm You mention you were not aware of any EPROM programmer boards for the Apple ][. I had one for my taiwanese FORMOSA Apple ][ clone and I recall it could do 2716s perhaps 2732s. It was dirt cheap relative to locally bought computer gear in Australia in 1982 like all the other clone cards on offer (Z80 Softcard, printer card, language card, disk ][ card, PAL colour card, 128k ramdisk card and so on) so we got the lot. Since we had no accessible internet back then, everything was done via telexes and wire transfers at the local Post Office to Formosa's Taiwan office. The clone programmer card was very similar in size, layout and appearance to this one but I don't recall it was as sparsely populated: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/Cider-EPROM-Programmer-VIA-for-Apple-II-Computers/223574161149 Steve
Re: unix developed on 11/20 with 20 on panel or machine that just said pdp/11?
Warren said > According to this page that Dennis Ritchie wrote, the original PDP-11 > they used was indeed an 11/20 but it was before there were PDP-11 model > numbers: > > https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/picture.html > > And, of course, the PDP-7 Unix development came before the PDP-11 version :) > > Cheers, Warren It states that their 11/20 had a KS-11 memory management unit, was that mandatory for running v1 Unix on an 11/20? The 1971 Unix Programmer's Manual mentions their 11/20 had 24 KB (surely KW?) memory rather than 28KW. https://www.bell-labs.com/usr/dmr/www/1stEdman.html Having recently acquired a 3rd-party 8KW unibus memory module (stack + drivers + control, all integrated into a DD-11-sized form) that is the same model and brand as the 16KW unit in my ex-BHP steelworks FOX 2 (11/15), perhaps there is the very, very slim hope that if the whole thing works it might be enough to run v1 someday. That day however is a long way away, but I think I now have most of the hardware needed. Steve.
Ep. 5 Thirteen minutes to the Moon Re: Apollo Guidance Computer Article
Chris said > You might want to be explicit that the article is about the Apollo Guidance > Computer, not about Apollo Computer the workstation manufacturer. > > — Chris I'd like to mention the great podcast series 'Thirteen minutes to the Moon' the BBC is running right now. Episode 5 is 'The Fouth Astronaut' covering the AGC. If you've watched the excellent Moon Machines series it might cover what you've already known, but very good nonetheless: https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/w3csz4dn Steve
