Re: Stus-List Outboard engine removal

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

I tend to agree with Dennis.

 

The 9.9 Tohatsu on Bell weighs around 80 pounds. The dock is about 18” to 2’ 
above the transom. I put a safety line on the motor (in case I dropped it), sat 
down on the edge of the dock, and just pulled the motor up off the mount and 
slid it onto the dock. Not pretty but very doable.

 

123 pounds sounds pretty heavy, how large is the engine?

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C 38 mk 2

la Belle Aurore C 25 mk1

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C. 
via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 8:42 PM
To: CnClist 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Outboard engine removal

 

Just put a tag line on the motor.  Have a buddy stand on the main dock and man 
the tag line.  Use the halyard to lift it up to the level of the main dock.  
Buddy pulls it over the main dock and you lower it.

If there's a cleat on the main dock on the far side, wrap the tag line around 
it for better control.

 

Dennis C.

 

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List 
 > wrote:

Hi Dennis,

 

I do back the boat and dock it stern first. However, the dock behind the boat 
is a good 3 feet higher than the transom and I think it'd be difficult to lift 
it that high.  There is a finger pier to starboard that is the same level as 
the boat.  I was thinking of raising the motor with the halyard and move it 
across the back of the boat and lay it down on the pier.  Or I could bring it 
around the port backstay, through the cockpit, and up onto the pier.  I'd much 
rather use just the halyard since it won't require using a boom extension.

 


Mark McMenamy 

C 25 "Icicle"

Fort Pierce FL


On May 1, 2016, at 7:41 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List  > wrote:

The Admiral and I use a halyard to lift and/return Touche's early 80's vintage 
Evinrude 7.5 from the starboard cockpit locker all the time.  It's pretty easy 
to maneuver it and put it on the transom of the dinghy which is usually tied 
midships.

Should work for the transom.  Once the load is on the halyard, you really don't 
need a lot of effort to swing it around.  The angle from the masthead to the 
transom isn't that great.

Can you put the boat in the slip stern in?  If so, just take the load on the 
halyard and have a friend standing on the dock pull it aft and then put it on 
the pier.

Dennis C.

Touche' 35-1 #83

Mandeville, LA

 

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List 
 > wrote:

Hello everyone,

I'm getting ready to remove my outboard engine and take it to be worked on.  
I'd like to leave it in the slip to avoid pullout costs as well ask to avoid 
the risk of ruining my bottom paint should it need to be out more than 72 
hours.  Looking online I came up with a system where I'm planning on lashing a 
4x4 to the boom.  

 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Diesel question

[Neil Gallagher via CnC-List]

Tom,

One thing you might try is to  is to see what type of smoke you're 
getting.  Burning lubricating oil tends to be blue/white, which 
indicates your might have excess oil splashed up from the crankcase to 
the cylinder walls.  Some splash is normal, that's the way the rings are 
lubricated, but if the oil level is too high you could get burning.   If 
it's black smoke, it indicates poor combustion and unburned fuel, which 
can happen when a diesel is overloaded, or some other kind of fuel 
injection issue.


Neil Gallagher
Weatherly, 35-1
Glen Cove, NY


On 5/1/2016 9:59 PM, Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List wrote:

Alera is my second C, but my first diesel.  My prior 35MK 1 had an Atomic4.

I have been checking oil on my Yanmar about as often as I did on the A4, like 
once a season.  Last summer I learned the error of my ways.  But I over 
compensated for the low oil level and overfilled the engine.

Our engine only had 489 hours and was in excellent condition.  I just changed 
the oil today, but before that we did a sail.  I notice at at cripuising RPS 
she was smoking pretty bad.

Is this from overfilling or you you all think I did some real damage?

Minor error or major disaster...

Tom Buscaglia
S/V Alera
1990 C 37+/40
Vashon WA
P 206.463.9200



___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!




___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C 25 leak

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

My 25, a MK1 HIN 225, has been very dry for the 22 years I’ve owned her. So dry 
I don’t have a bilge pump except the OEM hand pump in the cockpit sole, and I 
dry out the bilge with a sponge every 6 months or so. Maybe I’m just lucky.

 

But on my boat there are small limber holes (maybe ½” diameter) in the bottom 
inside seam of the lockers under each settee. And that makes me want to ask if 
your bilge is dry when you take the boat out for a sail?

 

If I had water in the small bilge of the 25, and sailed at an extreme angle of 
heel (she is fastest with only 15-18 degrees of heel in my experience), some of 
the water would migrate from the bilge to the lockers.

 

I find it hard to envision spending enough time with the toerail in the water 
to get water ingress through the hull to deck joint, and a leak between the 
deck and toerail would let water in during a rain storm.

 

Rick Brass

Imzadi  C 38 mk 2

la Belle Aurore C 25 mk1

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Sailnomad 
via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 5:05 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Sailnomad 
Subject: Re: Stus-List C 25 leak

 

I have the same problem too, but it is in the bilge, and does not seem tn be 
related to heeling or sailing.

Ahmet

Winthrop, MA

C "Tabasco"

 

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List 
 > wrote:

Hello everyone,

I have water in each of the aft storage bins under the settees.  When it rains 
no water accumulates, but when we go for a sail there will be a small amount of 
water in each bin.  After I dry it out, it stays dry until we go for a sail.   
What I'm thinking is there is a leak in the seal in between the topsides and 
the hull seam, and sea spray forces its way into the hull on the down wind 
side.   I was thinking that I need to tighten the bolts along the toe rail that 
hold the topsides to the hull.  I've read online that you hold the screw steady 
on top and turn the bolt underneath.  I believe there is butyl tape in between 
the hull and the topsides.   I was thinking of giving each bolt a 1/4 turn.  Is 
my thinking on this correct?

Thanks a lot for your help.

Mark McMenamy
C 25 "Icicle"
Fort Pierce FL
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Water tank size. Is there more than one? 30MkII 1988

[Jim Reinardy via CnC-List]

The way ours is set up is that the whole system pulls from one tank or the 
other.  There is a valve in the forward end of the port settee right by the 
pump.  I have a 3M filter on my galley sink that makes me comfortable drinking 
the water, yes.

 

Jim

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Lorne Serpa 
via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 9:12 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Lorne Serpa 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Water tank size. Is there more than one? 30MkII 1988

 

Sweet!  Thanks for the confirmation.  It's larger  capacity was a selection 
criteria.  They are both suitable for drinking if clean right?  I assume just 
like all the  RV campers I've owned I  the past.  I've never owned a live 
aboard. 

How do you use them in that are they connected or one for kitchen and one for 
bath/shower etc? 

On May 1, 2016 8:07 PM, "Jim Reinardy via CnC-List"  > wrote:

Lorne,

 

My 1988 30-2 has 2 tanks as you describe, one starboard under the settee and 
one under the V-berth.  78 gallons total sounds about right.  The holding tank 
is aft, under the floor of the starboard lazerette next to the water heater.  
Not sure if that is a standard or optional configuration, but I am pretty sure 
it came from the factory this way.  Our boat was originally shipped to Traverse 
City and has always been on Lake Michigan.

 

Jim Reinardy

C 30-2 “Firewater”

Milwaukee, WI 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com 
 ] On Behalf Of Jim Watts via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 8:59 PM
To: 1 CnC List  >
Cc: Jim Watts  >
Subject: Re: Stus-List Water tank size. Is there more than one? 30MkII 1988

 

Boats that weren't shipped to the Great Lakes frequently had the holding tank 
plumbed as an extra water tank. Maybe?




Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC

 

On 1 May 2016 at 16:13, Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  > wrote:

The ad for my boat says water is 78 gallons.  The spec sheet in the owner's 
manual says "standard tank size" is 42.5 gallons.  Is there a non-standard or 
optional sizes or do you think the ad for the boat is wrong?

The line drawings in the manual also shows two tanks, two vents, two fillers.  
One is on the starboard side and the other under the v berth.  The boat is 
2,000 miles away and I'd look if I could.  Maybe one tank is standard and the 
other optional?  Thanks for any info.

 

 

 

 


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

 


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Diesel question

[Franklin Schenk via CnC-List]

Only time will tell.  If it starts using a lot of oil you know that there is 
damage to the engine.  I would check the oil each time you go out to see if it 
is burning oil.  If the oil level does not change you were just burning off the 
excess oil.  BTW, how much did you over fill on the oil?
Frank 

On Sunday, May 1, 2016 8:59 PM, Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List 
 wrote:
 

 Alera is my second C, but my first diesel.  My prior 35MK 1 had an Atomic4.

I have been checking oil on my Yanmar about as often as I did on the A4, like 
once a season.  Last summer I learned the error of my ways.  But I over 
compensated for the low oil level and overfilled the engine.

Our engine only had 489 hours and was in excellent condition.  I just changed 
the oil today, but before that we did a sail.  I notice at at cripuising RPS 
she was smoking pretty bad.

Is this from overfilling or you you all think I did some real damage?  

Minor error or major disaster...

Tom Buscaglia
S/V Alera 
1990 C 37+/40
Vashon WA
P 206.463.9200



___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


  ___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Diesel question

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Minor

I can't remember where I heard it but as I understand it mid to low is
better than full.   I guess these (Yanmar 3GM/HM) engines are more likely
to carry over oil into the combustion as the oil level goes up.

Same thing happens when you overfill cars and my lawnmower.  My lawnmower
runs fine except on certain hills it starts blowing all sorts of smoke.

I had a co-worker who was having all types of engines problems and smoke on
his classic camaro.  Dealership final found that the dipstick was too
short.  Evidently, some time in the car's history, someone changed out the
dipstick.  Kinda weird.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD
On May 1, 2016 10:00 PM, "Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Alera is my second C, but my first diesel.  My prior 35MK 1 had an
> Atomic4.
>
> I have been checking oil on my Yanmar about as often as I did on the A4,
> like once a season.  Last summer I learned the error of my ways.  But I
> over compensated for the low oil level and overfilled the engine.
>
> Our engine only had 489 hours and was in excellent condition.  I just
> changed the oil today, but before that we did a sail.  I notice at at
> cripuising RPS she was smoking pretty bad.
>
> Is this from overfilling or you you all think I did some real damage?
>
> Minor error or major disaster...
>
> Tom Buscaglia
> S/V Alera
> 1990 C 37+/40
> Vashon WA
> P 206.463.9200
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Water tank size. Is there more than one? 30MkII 1988

[Lorne Serpa via CnC-List]

Do you still own yours?  May I call you this coming week?  I have a ton of
questions.
On May 1, 2016 8:07 PM, "Jim Reinardy via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Lorne,
>
>
>
> My 1988 30-2 has 2 tanks as you describe, one starboard under the settee
> and one under the V-berth.  78 gallons total sounds about right.  The
> holding tank is aft, under the floor of the starboard lazerette next to the
> water heater.  Not sure if that is a standard or optional configuration,
> but I am pretty sure it came from the factory this way.  Our boat was
> originally shipped to Traverse City and has always been on Lake Michigan.
>
>
>
> Jim Reinardy
>
> C 30-2 “Firewater”
>
> Milwaukee, WI
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Jim
> Watts via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 01, 2016 8:59 PM
> *To:* 1 CnC List 
> *Cc:* Jim Watts 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Water tank size. Is there more than one? 30MkII
> 1988
>
>
>
> Boats that weren't shipped to the Great Lakes frequently had the holding
> tank plumbed as an extra water tank. Maybe?
>
>
> Jim Watts
> Paradigm Shift
> C 35 Mk III
> Victoria, BC
>
>
>
> On 1 May 2016 at 16:13, Lorne Serpa via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> The ad for my boat says water is 78 gallons.  The spec sheet in the
> owner's manual says "standard tank size" is 42.5 gallons.  Is there a
> non-standard or optional sizes or do you think the ad for the boat is wrong?
>
> The line drawings in the manual also shows two tanks, two vents, two
> fillers.  One is on the starboard side and the other under the v berth.
> The boat is 2,000 miles away and I'd look if I could.  Maybe one tank is
> standard and the other optional?  Thanks for any info.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Water tank size. Is there more than one? 30MkII 1988

[Jim Reinardy via CnC-List]

Lorne,

 

My 1988 30-2 has 2 tanks as you describe, one starboard under the settee and 
one under the V-berth.  78 gallons total sounds about right.  The holding tank 
is aft, under the floor of the starboard lazerette next to the water heater.  
Not sure if that is a standard or optional configuration, but I am pretty sure 
it came from the factory this way.  Our boat was originally shipped to Traverse 
City and has always been on Lake Michigan.

 

Jim Reinardy

C 30-2 “Firewater”

Milwaukee, WI 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Jim Watts 
via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 8:59 PM
To: 1 CnC List 
Cc: Jim Watts 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Water tank size. Is there more than one? 30MkII 1988

 

Boats that weren't shipped to the Great Lakes frequently had the holding tank 
plumbed as an extra water tank. Maybe?




Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC

 

On 1 May 2016 at 16:13, Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  > wrote:

The ad for my boat says water is 78 gallons.  The spec sheet in the owner's 
manual says "standard tank size" is 42.5 gallons.  Is there a non-standard or 
optional sizes or do you think the ad for the boat is wrong?

The line drawings in the manual also shows two tanks, two vents, two fillers.  
One is on the starboard side and the other under the v berth.  The boat is 
2,000 miles away and I'd look if I could.  Maybe one tank is standard and the 
other optional?  Thanks for any info.

 

 

 

 


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Diesel question

[Tom Buscaglia via CnC-List]

Alera is my second C, but my first diesel.  My prior 35MK 1 had an Atomic4.

I have been checking oil on my Yanmar about as often as I did on the A4, like 
once a season.  Last summer I learned the error of my ways.  But I over 
compensated for the low oil level and overfilled the engine.

Our engine only had 489 hours and was in excellent condition.  I just changed 
the oil today, but before that we did a sail.  I notice at at cripuising RPS 
she was smoking pretty bad.

Is this from overfilling or you you all think I did some real damage?  

Minor error or major disaster...

Tom Buscaglia
S/V Alera 
1990 C 37+/40
Vashon WA
P 206.463.9200



___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Water tank size. Is there more than one? 30MkII 1988

[Jim Watts via CnC-List]

Boats that weren't shipped to the Great Lakes frequently had the holding
tank plumbed as an extra water tank. Maybe?

Jim Watts
Paradigm Shift
C 35 Mk III
Victoria, BC

On 1 May 2016 at 16:13, Lorne Serpa via CnC-List 
wrote:

> The ad for my boat says water is 78 gallons.  The spec sheet in the
> owner's manual says "standard tank size" is 42.5 gallons.  Is there a
> non-standard or optional sizes or do you think the ad for the boat is wrong?
> The line drawings in the manual also shows two tanks, two vents, two
> fillers.  One is on the starboard side and the other under the v berth.
> The boat is 2,000 miles away and I'd look if I could.  Maybe one tank is
> standard and the other optional?  Thanks for any info.
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Outboard engine removal

[Mark McMenamy via CnC-List]

Coolthanks Dennis...sounds like a plan.

Mark McMenamy
C 25 "Icicle"
Fort Pierce FL

On May 1, 2016, at 8:42 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List 
> wrote:

Just put a tag line on the motor.  Have a buddy stand on the main dock and man 
the tag line.  Use the halyard to lift it up to the level of the main dock.  
Buddy pulls it over the main dock and you lower it.

If there's a cleat on the main dock on the far side, wrap the tag line around 
it for better control.

Dennis C.

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List 
> wrote:
Hi Dennis,

I do back the boat and dock it stern first. However, the dock behind the boat 
is a good 3 feet higher than the transom and I think it'd be difficult to lift 
it that high.  There is a finger pier to starboard that is the same level as 
the boat.  I was thinking of raising the motor with the halyard and move it 
across the back of the boat and lay it down on the pier.  Or I could bring it 
around the port backstay, through the cockpit, and up onto the pier.  I'd much 
rather use just the halyard since it won't require using a boom extension.


Mark McMenamy
C 25 "Icicle"
Fort Pierce FL

On May 1, 2016, at 7:41 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List 
> wrote:

The Admiral and I use a halyard to lift and/return Touche's early 80's vintage 
Evinrude 7.5 from the starboard cockpit locker all the time.  It's pretty easy 
to maneuver it and put it on the transom of the dinghy which is usually tied 
midships.

Should work for the transom.  Once the load is on the halyard, you really don't 
need a lot of effort to swing it around.  The angle from the masthead to the 
transom isn't that great.

Can you put the boat in the slip stern in?  If so, just take the load on the 
halyard and have a friend standing on the dock pull it aft and then put it on 
the pier.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List 
> wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm getting ready to remove my outboard engine and take it to be worked on.  
I'd like to leave it in the slip to avoid pullout costs as well ask to avoid 
the risk of ruining my bottom paint should it need to be out more than 72 
hours.  Looking online I came up with a system where I'm planning on lashing a 
4x4 to the boom.

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Outboard engine removal

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Just put a tag line on the motor.  Have a buddy stand on the main dock and
man the tag line.  Use the halyard to lift it up to the level of the main
dock.  Buddy pulls it over the main dock and you lower it.

If there's a cleat on the main dock on the far side, wrap the tag line
around it for better control.

Dennis C.

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 7:08 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi Dennis,
>
> I do back the boat and dock it stern first. However, the dock behind the
> boat is a good 3 feet higher than the transom and I think it'd be difficult
> to lift it that high.  There is a finger pier to starboard that is the same
> level as the boat.  I was thinking of raising the motor with the halyard
> and move it across the back of the boat and lay it down on the pier.  Or I
> could bring it around the port backstay, through the cockpit, and up onto
> the pier.  I'd much rather use just the halyard since it won't require
> using a boom extension.
>
>
> Mark McMenamy
> C 25 "Icicle"
> Fort Pierce FL
>
> On May 1, 2016, at 7:41 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List 
> wrote:
>
> The Admiral and I use a halyard to lift and/return Touche's early 80's
> vintage Evinrude 7.5 from the starboard cockpit locker all the time.  It's
> pretty easy to maneuver it and put it on the transom of the dinghy which is
> usually tied midships.
>
> Should work for the transom.  Once the load is on the halyard, you really
> don't need a lot of effort to swing it around.  The angle from the masthead
> to the transom isn't that great.
>
> Can you put the boat in the slip stern in?  If so, just take the load on
> the halyard and have a friend standing on the dock pull it aft and then put
> it on the pier.
>
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
>
> On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Hello everyone,
>>
>> I'm getting ready to remove my outboard engine and take it to be worked
>> on.  I'd like to leave it in the slip to avoid pullout costs as well ask to
>> avoid the risk of ruining my bottom paint should it need to be out more
>> than 72 hours.  Looking online I came up with a system where I'm planning
>> on lashing a 4x4 to the boom.
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Outboard engine removal

[Mark McMenamy via CnC-List]

Hi Dennis,

I do back the boat and dock it stern first. However, the dock behind the boat 
is a good 3 feet higher than the transom and I think it'd be difficult to lift 
it that high.  There is a finger pier to starboard that is the same level as 
the boat.  I was thinking of raising the motor with the halyard and move it 
across the back of the boat and lay it down on the pier.  Or I could bring it 
around the port backstay, through the cockpit, and up onto the pier.  I'd much 
rather use just the halyard since it won't require using a boom extension.


Mark McMenamy
C 25 "Icicle"
Fort Pierce FL

On May 1, 2016, at 7:41 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List 
> wrote:

The Admiral and I use a halyard to lift and/return Touche's early 80's vintage 
Evinrude 7.5 from the starboard cockpit locker all the time.  It's pretty easy 
to maneuver it and put it on the transom of the dinghy which is usually tied 
midships.

Should work for the transom.  Once the load is on the halyard, you really don't 
need a lot of effort to swing it around.  The angle from the masthead to the 
transom isn't that great.

Can you put the boat in the slip stern in?  If so, just take the load on the 
halyard and have a friend standing on the dock pull it aft and then put it on 
the pier.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List 
> wrote:
Hello everyone,

I'm getting ready to remove my outboard engine and take it to be worked on.  
I'd like to leave it in the slip to avoid pullout costs as well ask to avoid 
the risk of ruining my bottom paint should it need to be out more than 72 
hours.  Looking online I came up with a system where I'm planning on lashing a 
4x4 to the boom.

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Outboard engine removal

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

The Admiral and I use a halyard to lift and/return Touche's early 80's
vintage Evinrude 7.5 from the starboard cockpit locker all the time.  It's
pretty easy to maneuver it and put it on the transom of the dinghy which is
usually tied midships.

Should work for the transom.  Once the load is on the halyard, you really
don't need a lot of effort to swing it around.  The angle from the masthead
to the transom isn't that great.

Can you put the boat in the slip stern in?  If so, just take the load on
the halyard and have a friend standing on the dock pull it aft and then put
it on the pier.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 5:00 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I'm getting ready to remove my outboard engine and take it to be worked
> on.  I'd like to leave it in the slip to avoid pullout costs as well ask to
> avoid the risk of ruining my bottom paint should it need to be out more
> than 72 hours.  Looking online I came up with a system where I'm planning
> on lashing a 4x4 to the boom.
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Americas Cup Books

[Chuck S via CnC-List]

The books about those Cup races are all very interesting. Bertrand got his 
Engineering degree at MIT, his thesis was on sail design. He knew Conners very 
well and IIRC was a genoa trimmer in Conners crew, years prior. It's a small 
club of sailors that make it to that level. 

The Mechanic and the Billionaire is also a good read about Ellison and his 
Americas Cup participation thru Oracle. 

Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C 34R 
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 

- Original Message -

From: "John Pennie via CnC-List"  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: "John Pennie"  
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 1:11:14 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel 

I was at a presentation many years ago where they spoke about Liberty. 
Apparently she had a list from day one which they had to compensate for with 
ballast. Liberty ended up being a heavier boat with less sail area than 
Australia II. Really not a fair fight. The fact it went to seven races is a 
testament to Conners and team’s mastery (and protest skills). It did prove to 
be the wake up call the America’s Cup needed however. Agree it was a funky 
looking keel but suspect it was all about getting the weight low. 

Interesting period with some of the most beautiful boats ever designed imho. 87 
was great fun to watch. 

John 




On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 

Agree, 
John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the Australian 
winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel was chosen to 
get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast and another keel 
might have improved it further. That keel was weird, long along the bottom and 
narrow where it met the hull. Bertrand did a Herculean job overcoming several 
breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm while aloft, which were all 
forgotten when the keel was unveiled. Liberty was a slower boat and Conners was 
challenged to defend the cup with his superior crew but inferior boat. Years 
later, Conners won the preliminary Cup races, and then switched to a faster 
boat. I think it was Young America. 

Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
keels. The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much thicker 
wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance. He managed to get the 
weight very low without increasing the displacement very much. 


Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C 34R 
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 

- Original Message -

From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: "John Pennie"  
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift? 

Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing keel - 
other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule, I believe they referred 
to them as winglets. The also used a film on top of the keel called “riblets”- 
really. 

John 






On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 

The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it back 
in Perth, Aus, in 1987. 

So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book somewhere 
on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an extension that 
goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps until after the 
races. I'll look it up later. 

Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked. 

Rob Abbott 
AZURA 
C 32 -84 
Halifax, N.S. 

On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote: 


(Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting). Keel lift is a 
horizontal, not vertical force. Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they are 
moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. Lift is 
the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - drag is the 
negative, resisting force. A good sailboat keel design has a high lift-to-drag 
ratio. Wing keels were developed by the Australians to win the 1983 America's 
Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel depth rules. When the boat 
heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel creating additional lift. This 
being said, I'm sure the angle at which the wing cuts into the water does have 
an effect but that is not what is meant by keel lift. The America's Cup left NY 
in 1983 never to return but this May there will be some preliminary cup races 
in NY Harbor with boats that truly do lift out of the water. Jerry 



-Original Message- 
From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  
To: cnc-list  
Cc: Lorne Serpa  
Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm 
Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift? 

So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'. It's a 1988 30MkII. 

Re: Stus-List What is an off shore mast? 1988 Mk II

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

It is probably one that was made by Offshore Spars.  C used them pretty
frequently for their masts, booms and standing rigging.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD
On May 1, 2016 7:15 PM, "Lorne Serpa via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> I'm reading a downloaded owner's manual and it refers to an off short
> mast.  Is there a standard mast and an off shore one?  Mine has two
> spreaders if it makes a difference.
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List C 25 leak

[Bradley Lumgair via CnC-List]

Just because we're talking leaks and bilges, I've found water along the aft 
centreline and into the bilge, got the garden hose out and flooded the cockpit, 
couldn't find a leak until I was groping around the underside of the pedestal. 
But, that wasn't the leak spot. Turns out the caulk that was used to seal the 
instrument panel in place wasn't adequate and had dried to a hard crusty mess. 
So the rain was running off the back of the port seat in the cockpit and down 
through the panel, across the ceiling of the aft bunk and pooling just below 
the pedestal, then running forward.
Brad
"Pulse" C 33 MkII
Lake Huron



I'd rather be sailing

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Water tank size. Is there more than one? 30MkII 1988

[Lorne Serpa via CnC-List]

The ad for my boat says water is 78 gallons.  The spec sheet in the owner's
manual says "standard tank size" is 42.5 gallons.  Is there a non-standard
or optional sizes or do you think the ad for the boat is wrong?
The line drawings in the manual also shows two tanks, two vents, two
fillers.  One is on the starboard side and the other under the v berth.
The boat is 2,000 miles away and I'd look if I could.  Maybe one tank is
standard and the other optional?  Thanks for any info.
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List What is an off shore mast? 1988 Mk II

[Lorne Serpa via CnC-List]

I'm reading a downloaded owner's manual and it refers to an off short
mast.  Is there a standard mast and an off shore one?  Mine has two
spreaders if it makes a difference.
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length

[Rick Bushie via CnC-List]

Anchovy's boom reaches back to within four inches of the backstay. The mails'l 
clew falls about two feet short of the end of the boom.

This winter, I actually raised her boom up a foot to create headroom in the 
cockpit. Luckily the mAins'l luff was a foot short to begin with.

Rick Bushie
Anchovy 1971 30-1 Hull 1
Tolchester, MD

Sent from my iPhone
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C 25 leak

[Ed dooley via CnC-List]

Mine was the bilge too.
Ed

Sent from my iPhone

On May 1, 2016, at 5:04 PM, Sailnomad  wrote:

> I have the same problem too, but it is in the bilge, and does not seem tn be 
> related to heeling or sailing.
> Ahmet
> Winthrop, MA
> C "Tabasco"
> 
> On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
>> Hello everyone,
>> 
>> I have water in each of the aft storage bins under the settees.  When it 
>> rains no water accumulates, but when we go for a sail there will be a small 
>> amount of water in each bin.  After I dry it out, it stays dry until we go 
>> for a sail.   What I'm thinking is there is a leak in the seal in between 
>> the topsides and the hull seam, and sea spray forces its way into the hull 
>> on the down wind side.   I was thinking that I need to tighten the bolts 
>> along the toe rail that hold the topsides to the hull.  I've read online 
>> that you hold the screw steady on top and turn the bolt underneath.  I 
>> believe there is butyl tape in between the hull and the topsides.   I was 
>> thinking of giving each bolt a 1/4 turn.  Is my thinking on this correct?
>> 
>> Thanks a lot for your help.
>> 
>> Mark McMenamy
>> C 25 "Icicle"
>> Fort Pierce FL
>> ___
>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
>> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
>> are greatly appreciated!
> 
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C 25 leak

[Mark McMenamy via CnC-List]

Great...thanks a lot for the replies.

Mark McMenamy
C 25 "Icicle"
Fort Pierce FL

On May 1, 2016, at 5:06 PM, Sailnomad via CnC-List 
> wrote:

I have the same problem too, but it is in the bilge, and does not seem tn be 
related to heeling or sailing.
Ahmet
Winthrop, MA
C "Tabasco"

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List 
> wrote:
Hello everyone,

I have water in each of the aft storage bins under the settees.  When it rains 
no water accumulates, but when we go for a sail there will be a small amount of 
water in each bin.  After I dry it out, it stays dry until we go for a sail.   
What I'm thinking is there is a leak in the seal in between the topsides and 
the hull seam, and sea spray forces its way into the hull on the down wind 
side.   I was thinking that I need to tighten the bolts along the toe rail that 
hold the topsides to the hull.  I've read online that you hold the screw steady 
on top and turn the bolt underneath.  I believe there is butyl tape in between 
the hull and the topsides.   I was thinking of giving each bolt a 1/4 turn.  Is 
my thinking on this correct?

Thanks a lot for your help.

Mark McMenamy
C 25 "Icicle"
Fort Pierce FL
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Thanks John, Dennis, Michael, and Gary. 

As soon as the #@()*%^ snow stops falling around here and I can uncover and 
raise the sail again, I'll take actual measurements and compare to the 
specified E dimension and report back. 

My boat does have tiller steering, and boom-end sheeting to a traveler at the 
aft end of the cockpit. I like the room that arrangement provides in the 
cockpit, but I'm still getting used to switching hands between tiller and 
traveler during tacks, compared to driving boats with the traveler farther 
forward in the cockpit. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Gary Nylander via CnC-List"  
To: "cnc-list"  
Cc: "Gary Nylander"  
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 3:30:30 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length 



Take a look at the C Brochures on the web site. You will see two versions of 
the early 30’s, one with end boom sheeting and the last one (d) with sheeting 
forward of the wheel. Maybe the difference is whether you had a tiller or 
wheel. 



Gary 




From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 11:46 AM 
To: cnc-list  
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net 
Subject: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length 





Listers- 





I posted a few pictures from my first race in my new-to-me 30-1 (hull #7) last 
Wednesday night at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTeUlmcm1IX1c5ZHc 





You can see the foot of my mainsail is considerably shorter than my boom. I'm 
wondering if that's "normal" for 30-1s (or other C for that matter). It 
doesn't really look normal judging by brochure photos and drawings. 





A previous owner had also raised the boom at least a foot from its original 
height, as the C itself did on later C 30s. 





When I get a new mainsail I'd like to increase its area by both returning the 
boom to its original height, and increasing the length of mainsail's foot. I'm 
thinking more area equals more power equals more speed. And I can live with a 
lower boom. 





Any words of wisdom to share? 





Thanks, 


Randy Stafford 


S/V Grenadine 


C 30-1 #7 


Ken Caryl, CO 

___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Outboard engine removal

[Mark McMenamy via CnC-List]

Hello everyone,

I'm getting ready to remove my outboard engine and take it to be worked on.  
I'd like to leave it in the slip to avoid pullout costs as well ask to avoid 
the risk of ruining my bottom paint should it need to be out more than 72 
hours.  Looking online I came up with a system where I'm planning on lashing a 
4x4 to the boom.  Out at the motor end I'm going to screw an eye bolt on top 
and attach the main halyard.  I'll also have the topping lift as a backup, but 
it will be attached on it's normal point on the boom.  The load will be borne 
by the halyard.  Underneath the 4x4 I will have a power puller lever type winch 
and run the line through an eye bolt and down to a harness on the engine.  My 
plan is to winch up the engine and swing to boom over to the dock and then 
lower.  Because of the split backstay I'll have to angle the boat in the slip.  
The motor is 123 lbs and the dock is 2.5-3 feet above the boat, so I'm worried 
about just trying to muscle it onto the dock.  Anybody ever done 
 this?  Does this sound crazy?

Initially I was thinking of just hooking the halyard directly to the engine and 
winching it up while a friend guided it out, but I was worried about the 
angular force applied against the motor in its bracket.

Thanks for your advice.

Mark McMenamy
C 25 "Icicle"
Fort Pierce FL
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

Take a look at the C Brochures on the web site. You will see two versions of 
the early 30’s, one with end boom sheeting and the last one (d) with sheeting 
forward of the wheel. Maybe the difference is whether you had a tiller or wheel.

 

Gary

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 11:46 AM
To: cnc-list 
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net
Subject: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length

 

Listers-

 

I posted a few pictures from my first race in my new-to-me 30-1 (hull #7) last 
Wednesday night at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTeUlmcm1IX1c5ZHc

 

You can see the foot of my mainsail is considerably shorter than my boom.  I'm 
wondering if that's "normal" for 30-1s (or other C for that matter).  It 
doesn't really look normal judging by brochure photos and drawings.

 

A previous owner had also raised the boom at least a foot from its original 
height, as the C itself did on later C 30s.

 

When I get a new mainsail I'd like to increase its area by both returning the 
boom to its original height, and increasing the length of mainsail's foot.  I'm 
thinking more area equals more power equals more speed.  And I can live with a 
lower boom.

 

Any words of wisdom to share?

 

Thanks,

Randy Stafford

S/V Grenadine

C 30-1 #7

Ken Caryl, CO

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

Randy, it is pretty evident that your boom is longer than what the later boats 
have. My boom extends only back as far as the wide spots in the coaming where 
the winches are mounted. Yours is longer, probably because your boat has 
end-boom sheeting. The later boats are sheeted about two feet in front of the 
end of the boom to a traveler which is between the seats and immediately aft of 
the cockpit hatch covers. Yours appears to have a traveler across the back of 
the boat.

 

Just measure the foot of your sail and then compare it to the specifications on 
the C web site, I think you have an extra long boom, not a short sail.

 

Gary

30-1 #593

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 11:46 AM
To: cnc-list 
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net
Subject: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length

 

Listers-

 

I posted a few pictures from my first race in my new-to-me 30-1 (hull #7) last 
Wednesday night at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTeUlmcm1IX1c5ZHc

 

You can see the foot of my mainsail is considerably shorter than my boom.  I'm 
wondering if that's "normal" for 30-1s (or other C for that matter).  It 
doesn't really look normal judging by brochure photos and drawings.

 

A previous owner had also raised the boom at least a foot from its original 
height, as the C itself did on later C 30s.

 

When I get a new mainsail I'd like to increase its area by both returning the 
boom to its original height, and increasing the length of mainsail's foot.  I'm 
thinking more area equals more power equals more speed.  And I can live with a 
lower boom.

 

Any words of wisdom to share?

 

Thanks,

Randy Stafford

S/V Grenadine

C 30-1 #7

Ken Caryl, CO

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C 25 leak

[Sailnomad via CnC-List]

I have the same problem too, but it is in the bilge, and does not seem tn
be related to heeling or sailing.
Ahmet
Winthrop, MA
C "Tabasco"

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 3:27 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I have water in each of the aft storage bins under the settees.  When it
> rains no water accumulates, but when we go for a sail there will be a small
> amount of water in each bin.  After I dry it out, it stays dry until we go
> for a sail.   What I'm thinking is there is a leak in the seal in between
> the topsides and the hull seam, and sea spray forces its way into the hull
> on the down wind side.   I was thinking that I need to tighten the bolts
> along the toe rail that hold the topsides to the hull.  I've read online
> that you hold the screw steady on top and turn the bolt underneath.  I
> believe there is butyl tape in between the hull and the topsides.   I was
> thinking of giving each bolt a 1/4 turn.  Is my thinking on this correct?
>
> Thanks a lot for your help.
>
> Mark McMenamy
> C 25 "Icicle"
> Fort Pierce FL
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C 25 leak

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 3:44 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Do you apply it up underneath the hull joint on the side of the boat?



No.  Squirt it into the deck/toe rail joint.  Start at the bow, place the
tip of the applicator bottle against the toe rail where it meets the deck.
Run the tip down the toe rail.  The liquid will get sucked under the toe
rail.

You can put on several applications in a day.  You could also apply some to
each fastener.

I'm not saying don't check the toe rail bolts.  Do that also, just don't
get carried away tightening them.  They should be snug, not over-tightened.

Dennis C.
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C 25 leak

[Ed Dooley via CnC-List]

Not to take away anything from Dennis' good advice, but I did exactly what 
you're thinking of doing on my C 24 and it
solved my leaking problem. I actually probably went 1/2 turn (it was 5 years 
ago, so not sure). As Dennis said, there might be other
reasons for your leak. And as for the butyl tape between the hull and topsides, 
when I tightened the bolts a very small amount of what looked like butyl,
but more liquid, oozed out at one spot which led me to believe it wasn't in 
tape form. Before tightening the bolts I was about to re-bed the toe rails, 
which
*does* have butyl tape between them and the deck, but the tightening fixed it.
Ed


On May 1, 2016, at 4:23 PM, cnc-list-requ...@cnc-list.com wrote:

> From: "Dennis C." 
> Date: May 1, 2016 4:22:49 PM EDT
> To: CnClist 
> Subject: Re: Stus-List C 25 leak
> 
> 
> Mark,
> 
> Leaks in the hull/deck joint are not uncommon.  However, one must consider 
> whether the leak is from under the rub rail due to excessive heeling and wave 
> action or from water ingress through the deck/toe rail interface or from the 
> fasteners.  Don't think that because it doesn't leak except when sailing that 
> the deck/toe rail interface isn't the source.  The deck/toe rail interface 
> may well leak as the boat flexes while sailing but does not leak while the 
> boat is at rest.
> 
> Your solution may be correct with one very significant caveat.  Tightening 
> the bolts will compress the butyl sealant and sailing the boat may result in 
> additional leakage.  A few iterations of this may result in no sealant 
> remaining.
> 
> I tightened the bolts once when first got Touche' later deciding it may not 
> be the best practice.  Now I use multiple applications of Captain Tolley's 
> Creeping Crack Cure along the deck/toe rail interface.  Capt Tolley's 
> "creeps" into the joint and cures forming a seal.  I repeat applications 
> every 2-3 years.
> 
> While I may get some leakage due to extreme heeling, I'd be content to let 
> that happen and either sponge out the compartments or drill limber holes to 
> let the water drain to the bilge.
> 
> Just my 2 cents worth.  
> 
> Dennis C.
> Touche' 35-1 #83
> Mandeville, LA
> 
> On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> Hello everyone,
> 
> I have water in each of the aft storage bins under the settees.  When it 
> rains no water accumulates, but when we go for a sail there will be a small 
> amount of water in each bin.  After I dry it out, it stays dry until we go 
> for a sail.   What I'm thinking is there is a leak in the seal in between the 
> topsides and the hull seam, and sea spray forces its way into the hull on the 
> down wind side.   I was thinking that I need to tighten the bolts along the 
> toe rail that hold the topsides to the hull.  I've read online that you hold 
> the screw steady on top and turn the bolt underneath.  I believe there is 
> butyl tape in between the hull and the topsides.   I was thinking of giving 
> each bolt a 1/4 turn.  Is my thinking on this correct?
> 
> Thanks a lot for your help.
> 
> Mark McMenamy
> C 25 "Icicle"
> Fort Pierce FL



___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C 25 leak

[Mark McMenamy via CnC-List]

Hi Dennis,

Thanks for the reply.  I was worried about squeezing out the butyl tape as 
well.  I like your captain trolly idea.  Do you apply it up underneath the hull 
joint on the side of the boat?

Yes.  It's really not an excessive leak.  After a sail I may have 1/4 cup of 
water to pull out.

Thanks,

Mark McMenamy
C 25 "Icicle"
Fort Pierce FL

On May 1, 2016, at 4:23 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List 
> wrote:

Mark,

Leaks in the hull/deck joint are not uncommon.  However, one must consider 
whether the leak is from under the rub rail due to excessive heeling and wave 
action or from water ingress through the deck/toe rail interface or from the 
fasteners.  Don't think that because it doesn't leak except when sailing that 
the deck/toe rail interface isn't the source.  The deck/toe rail interface may 
well leak as the boat flexes while sailing but does not leak while the boat is 
at rest.

Your solution may be correct with one very significant caveat.  Tightening the 
bolts will compress the butyl sealant and sailing the boat may result in 
additional leakage.  A few iterations of this may result in no sealant 
remaining.

I tightened the bolts once when first got Touche' later deciding it may not be 
the best practice.  Now I use multiple applications of Captain Tolley's 
Creeping Crack Cure along the deck/toe rail interface.  Capt Tolley's "creeps" 
into the joint and cures forming a seal.  I repeat applications every 2-3 years.

While I may get some leakage due to extreme heeling, I'd be content to let that 
happen and either sponge out the compartments or drill limber holes to let the 
water drain to the bilge.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List 
> wrote:
Hello everyone,

I have water in each of the aft storage bins under the settees.  When it rains 
no water accumulates, but when we go for a sail there will be a small amount of 
water in each bin.  After I dry it out, it stays dry until we go for a sail.   
What I'm thinking is there is a leak in the seal in between the topsides and 
the hull seam, and sea spray forces its way into the hull on the down wind 
side.   I was thinking that I need to tighten the bolts along the toe rail that 
hold the topsides to the hull.  I've read online that you hold the screw steady 
on top and turn the bolt underneath.  I believe there is butyl tape in between 
the hull and the topsides.   I was thinking of giving each bolt a 1/4 turn.  Is 
my thinking on this correct?

Thanks a lot for your help.

Mark McMenamy
C 25 "Icicle"
Fort Pierce FL
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List C 25 leak

[jhnelson via CnC-List]

Pretty much. You may have to go more than a 1/4 turn. But it will become 
obvious how much once you get startedSome of mine the nuts had backed off 
almost completely.


Sent from my Samsung device

 Original message 
From: Mark McMenamy via CnC-List  
Date: 2016-05-01  4:27 PM  (GMT-04:00) 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Mark McMenamy  
Subject: Stus-List C 25 leak 

Hello everyone,

I have water in each of the aft storage bins under the settees.  When it rains 
no water accumulates, but when we go for a sail there will be a small amount of 
water in each bin.  After I dry it out, it stays dry until we go for a sail.   
What I'm thinking is there is a leak in the seal in between the topsides and 
the hull seam, and sea spray forces its way into the hull on the down wind 
side.   I was thinking that I need to tighten the bolts along the toe rail that 
hold the topsides to the hull.  I've read online that you hold the screw steady 
on top and turn the bolt underneath.  I believe there is butyl tape in between 
the hull and the topsides.   I was thinking of giving each bolt a 1/4 turn.  Is 
my thinking on this correct?

Thanks a lot for your help.

Mark McMenamy
C 25 "Icicle"
Fort Pierce FL
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List]

Gary,
There were several renditions of Young America syndicates.
This is the yacht in question 
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Young_America_(1994_yacht)

Connor won the defender series on Stars and Stripes but switched boats.
Chuck Gilchrest
Half Magic
1983 LF 35
Padanaram MA

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 1, 2016, at 4:18 PM, Gary Russell via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Conner's boat was not Young America (a syndicate out of New York Yacht Club), 
> but I believe it was Stars & stripes.  The skmipper for Young America was Ed 
> Baird.
> Gary
> S/V Kaylarah
> '90 C 37+
> East Greenwich, RI, USA
> 
> ~~~_/)~~
> 
> 
>> On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List 
>>  wrote:
>> Agree, 
>> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
>> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel 
>> was chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast 
>> and another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, long 
>> along the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a Herculean 
>> job overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm 
>> while aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  Liberty 
>> was a slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with his 
>> superior crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the preliminary 
>> Cup races, and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was Young 
>> America.  
>> 
>> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
>> keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much 
>> thicker wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to 
>> get the weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.
>> 
>> 
>> Chuck
>> Resolute
>> 1990 C 34R
>> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
>> 
>> From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" 
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> Cc: "John Pennie" 
>> Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>> 
>> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing 
>> keel - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe 
>> they referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel 
>> called “riblets”- really.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
>> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
>> 
>> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
>> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
>> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
>> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps 
>> until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
>> 
>> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
>> 
>> Rob Abbott
>> AZURA
>> C 32 -84 
>> Halifax, N.S.
>> 
>> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
>> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
>> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
>> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. 
>> Lift is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - 
>> drag is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a 
>> high lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to 
>> win the 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel 
>> depth rules.  When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel 
>> creating additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the angle at which the 
>> wing cuts into the water does have an effect but that is not what is meant 
>> by keel lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but this 
>> May there will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats that 
>> truly do lift out of the water.Jerry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List 
>> To: cnc-list 
>> Cc: Lorne Serpa 
>> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
>> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>> 
>> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 30MkII.
>> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift.
>> So
>> Does a wing keel create lift?
>> Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle 
>> of attack on the keel?
>> Or..
>> don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots.It 
>> does nothing.
>>  
>> Lorne
>> ___
>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If 

Re: Stus-List C 25 leak

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Mark,

Leaks in the hull/deck joint are not uncommon.  However, one must consider
whether the leak is from under the rub rail due to excessive heeling and
wave action or from water ingress through the deck/toe rail interface or
from the fasteners.  Don't think that because it doesn't leak except when
sailing that the deck/toe rail interface isn't the source.  The deck/toe
rail interface may well leak as the boat flexes while sailing but does not
leak while the boat is at rest.

Your solution may be correct with one very significant caveat.  Tightening
the bolts will compress the butyl sealant and sailing the boat may result
in additional leakage.  A few iterations of this may result in no sealant
remaining.

I tightened the bolts once when first got Touche' later deciding it may not
be the best practice.  Now I use multiple applications of Captain Tolley's
Creeping Crack Cure along the deck/toe rail interface.  Capt Tolley's
"creeps" into the joint and cures forming a seal.  I repeat applications
every 2-3 years.

While I may get some leakage due to extreme heeling, I'd be content to let
that happen and either sponge out the compartments or drill limber holes to
let the water drain to the bilge.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 2:27 PM, Mark McMenamy via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hello everyone,
>
> I have water in each of the aft storage bins under the settees.  When it
> rains no water accumulates, but when we go for a sail there will be a small
> amount of water in each bin.  After I dry it out, it stays dry until we go
> for a sail.   What I'm thinking is there is a leak in the seal in between
> the topsides and the hull seam, and sea spray forces its way into the hull
> on the down wind side.   I was thinking that I need to tighten the bolts
> along the toe rail that hold the topsides to the hull.  I've read online
> that you hold the screw steady on top and turn the bolt underneath.  I
> believe there is butyl tape in between the hull and the topsides.   I was
> thinking of giving each bolt a 1/4 turn.  Is my thinking on this correct?
>
> Thanks a lot for your help.
>
> Mark McMenamy
> C 25 "Icicle"
> Fort Pierce FL
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List C 25 leak

[Mark McMenamy via CnC-List]

Hello everyone,

I have water in each of the aft storage bins under the settees.  When it rains 
no water accumulates, but when we go for a sail there will be a small amount of 
water in each bin.  After I dry it out, it stays dry until we go for a sail.   
What I'm thinking is there is a leak in the seal in between the topsides and 
the hull seam, and sea spray forces its way into the hull on the down wind 
side.   I was thinking that I need to tighten the bolts along the toe rail that 
hold the topsides to the hull.  I've read online that you hold the screw steady 
on top and turn the bolt underneath.  I believe there is butyl tape in between 
the hull and the topsides.   I was thinking of giving each bolt a 1/4 turn.  Is 
my thinking on this correct?

Thanks a lot for your help.

Mark McMenamy
C 25 "Icicle"
Fort Pierce FL
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[Jerome Tauber via CnC-List]

Painted by Roy Lichenstein.  It's at the Storm King sculpture garden.  Jerry. 
J  27-V.   

Sent from my iPhone

> On May 1, 2016, at 3:02 PM, Chuck Gilchrest via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Connor's Stars and Stripes was much slower than Young America and was given 
> the OK to switch boats to YA for the unsuccessful Cup Defense against Russell 
> Coutts on New Zeeland.  Young America was famously  painted with a Mermaid 
> along the top sides of the hull.
> 
>   When I bought my original Half Magic C 25, she was next to Young America 
> on the hard in Quonsett Point, RI.  All the deck hardware and keel had been 
> removed from YA's hull and she was later trucked to an outdoor art museum in 
> the Catskills where she still sits.
> Chuck Gilchrest
> Half Magic
> 1983 LF 35
> Padanaram, MA
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 1:16 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Actually I thought Young America was the boat with the forward rudder. old 
>> age is terrible as I can’t recall the skipper’s name - very famous and 
>> talented fellow.  Conners went with a 2nd Stars & Stripes.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>>> On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Agree, 
>>> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
>>> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel 
>>> was chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very 
>>> fast and another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, 
>>> long along the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a 
>>> Herculean job overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking 
>>> his arm while aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  
>>> Liberty was a slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with 
>>> his superior crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the 
>>> preliminary Cup races, and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was 
>>> Young America.  
>>> 
>>> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
>>> keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much 
>>> thicker wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to 
>>> get the weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Chuck
>>> Resolute
>>> 1990 C 34R
>>> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
>>> 
>>> From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" 
>>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>>> Cc: "John Pennie" 
>>> Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
>>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>>> 
>>> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing 
>>> keel - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe 
>>> they referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel 
>>> called “riblets”- really.
>>> 
>>> John
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
>>> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
>>> 
>>> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
>>> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
>>> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
>>> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under 
>>> raps until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
>>> 
>>> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
>>> 
>>> Rob Abbott
>>> AZURA
>>> C 32 -84 
>>> Halifax, N.S.
>>> 
>>> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
>>> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
>>> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
>>> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. 
>>> Lift is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - 
>>> drag is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a 
>>> high lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to 
>>> win the 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel 
>>> depth rules.  When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel 
>>> creating additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the   
>>> angle at which the wing cuts into the water does have an effect but that is 
>>> not what is meant by keel lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never 
>>> to return but this May there will be some preliminary cup races in NY 
>>> Harbor with boats that truly do lift out of the water.Jerry
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List 
>>> To: cnc-list 
>>> Cc: Lorne Serpa 
>>> Sent: 

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

The 12 Metre with the canard--forward rudder--was USA 61 sailed by Tom 
Blackhaller built for the 1987 Americas Cup. In Oz. She's still in Newport, at 
New England boat works looking pretty sad. She was apparently an incredibly 
difficult boat to steer but when they had it right, was very fast. They didn't 
have it right often enough!

Andy
C 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI 
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

> On 
> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 1:16 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Actually I thought Young America was the boat with the forward rudder. old 
>> age is terrible as I can’t recall the skipper’s name - very famous and 
>> talented fellow.  Conners went with a 2nd Stars & Stripes.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>>> On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

Had to google it.  It was a 4th Stars & Stripes (87).  Had to google it but I 
believe the boat you’re thinking of is Tom Blackaller’s Heart of America.

John

> On May 1, 2016, at 1:16 PM, John Pennie via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Actually I thought Young America was the boat with the forward rudder. old 
> age is terrible as I can’t recall the skipper’s name - very famous and 
> talented fellow.  Conners went with a 2nd Stars & Stripes.
> 
> John
> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List > > wrote:
>> 
>> Agree, 
>> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
>> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel 
>> was chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast 
>> and another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, long 
>> along the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a Herculean 
>> job overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm 
>> while aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  Liberty 
>> was a slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with his 
>> superior crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the preliminary 
>> Cup races, and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was Young 
>> America.  
>> 
>> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
>> keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much 
>> thicker wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to 
>> get the weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.
>> 
>> 
>> Chuck
>> Resolute
>> 1990 C 34R
>> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
>> 
>> From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" > >
>> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
>> Cc: "John Pennie" 
>> Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
>> Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>> 
>> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing 
>> keel - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe 
>> they referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel 
>> called “riblets”- really.
>> 
>> John
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List > > wrote:
>> 
>> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
>> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
>> 
>> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
>> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
>> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
>> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps 
>> until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
>> 
>> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
>> 
>> Rob Abbott
>> AZURA
>> C 32 -84 
>> Halifax, N.S.
>> 
>> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
>> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
>> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
>> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. 
>> Lift is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - 
>> drag is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a 
>> high lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to 
>> win the 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel 
>> depth rules.  When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel 
>> creating additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the angle at which the 
>> wing cuts into the water does have an effect but that is not what is meant 
>> by keel lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but this 
>> May there will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats that 
>> truly do lift out of the water.Jerry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  
>> 
>> To: cnc-list  
>> Cc: Lorne Serpa  
>> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
>> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>> 
>> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 30MkII.
>> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift.
>> So
>> Does a wing keel create lift?
>> Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle 
>> of attack on the keel?
>> Or..
>> don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots.  It does nothing.
>>  
>> Lorne
>> ___
>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous 

Re: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length

[Michael Brown via CnC-List]

The "E" measurement of the C 30-1 is 11.50'. That would be
from the stern of the mast along the boom to the edge of the main
leach when fully pulled back by the outhaul.

You may be an inch or two shorter, if so I doubt replacing the sail
just for that would make any sense.

It is hard to tell from the pictures but if I had to guess I would say
your boom might be longer than mine, possibly to enable end sheeting
from a stern mounted track. Again a guess, but from the stern of the
mast my boom is about 12' long. yours looks to be around 13.75.

Michael Brown
Windburn
C 30-1
 

Date: Sun, 1 May 2016 15:45:57 + (UTC) 
From: randy.staff...@comcast.net 
To: cnc-list  
Subject: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length 
Message-ID: 
     <990041156.24816803.1462117557970.javamail.zim...@comcast.net> 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8" 
 
Listers-  
 
I posted a few pictures from my first race in my new-to-me 30-1 (hull #7) last 
Wednesday night at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTeUlmcm1IX1c5ZHc  
 
You can see the foot of my mainsail is considerably shorter than my boom. I'm 
wondering if that's "normal" for 30-1s (or other C for that matter). It 
doesn't really look normal judging by brochure photos and drawings.  
 
A previous owner had also raised the boom at least a foot from its original 
height, as the C itself did on later C 30s.  
 
When I get a new mainsail I'd like to increase its area by both returning the 
boom to its original height, and increasing the length of mainsail's foot. I'm 
thinking more area equals more power equals more speed. And I can live with a 
lower boom.  
 
Any words of wisdom to share?  
 
Thanks,  
Randy Stafford  
S/V Grenadine  
C 30-1 #7  
Ken Caryl, CO  
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

Actually I thought Young America was the boat with the forward rudder. old age 
is terrible as I can’t recall the skipper’s name - very famous and talented 
fellow.  Conners went with a 2nd Stars & Stripes.

John

> On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Agree, 
> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel was 
> chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast and 
> another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, long along 
> the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a Herculean job 
> overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm while 
> aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  Liberty was a 
> slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with his superior 
> crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the preliminary Cup races, 
> and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was Young America.  
> 
> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
> keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much thicker 
> wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to get the 
> weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.
> 
> 
> Chuck
> Resolute
> 1990 C 34R
> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
> 
> From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: "John Pennie" 
> Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
> 
> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing keel 
> - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe they 
> referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel called 
> “riblets”- really.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List  > wrote:
> 
> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
> 
> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps 
> until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
> 
> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
> 
> Rob Abbott
> AZURA
> C 32 -84 
> Halifax, N.S.
> 
> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. Lift 
> is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - drag 
> is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a high 
> lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to win the 
> 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel depth rules.  
> When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel creating 
> additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the angle at which the wing cuts 
> into the water does have an effect but that is not what is meant by keel 
> lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but this May there 
> will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats that truly do lift 
> out of the water.Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  
> 
> To: cnc-list  
> Cc: Lorne Serpa  
> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
> 
> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 30MkII.
> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift.
> So
> Does a wing keel create lift?
> Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle of 
> attack on the keel?
> Or..
> don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots.  It does nothing.
>  
> Lorne
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
> 
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is 

Re: Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

I was at a presentation many years ago where they spoke about Liberty.  
Apparently she had a list from day one which they had to compensate for with 
ballast.  Liberty ended up being a heavier boat with less sail area than 
Australia II.  Really not a fair fight.  The fact it went to seven races is a 
testament to Conners and team’s mastery (and protest skills).  It did prove to 
be the wake up call the America’s Cup needed however.  Agree it was a funky 
looking keel but suspect it was all about getting the weight low.

Interesting period with some of the most beautiful boats ever designed imho.  
87 was great fun to watch.

John

> On May 1, 2016, at 12:37 PM, Chuck S via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Agree, 
> John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the 
> Australian winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel was 
> chosen to get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast and 
> another keel might have improved it further.  That keel was weird, long along 
> the bottom and narrow where it met the hull.  Bertrand did a Herculean job 
> overcoming several breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm while 
> aloft, which were all forgotten when the keel was unveiled.  Liberty was a 
> slower boat and Conners was challenged to defend the cup with his superior 
> crew but inferior boat.  Years later, Conners won the preliminary Cup races, 
> and then switched to a faster boat.  I think it was Young America.  
> 
> Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
> keels.  The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much thicker 
> wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance.  He managed to get the 
> weight very low without increasing the displacement very much.
> 
> 
> Chuck
> Resolute
> 1990 C 34R
> Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md
> 
> From: "John Pennie via CnC-List" 
> To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> Cc: "John Pennie" 
> Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM
> Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
> 
> Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing keel 
> - other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe they 
> referred to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel called 
> “riblets”- really.
> 
> John
> 
> 
> 
> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List  > wrote:
> 
> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
> 
> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps 
> until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
> 
> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
> 
> Rob Abbott
> AZURA
> C 32 -84 
> Halifax, N.S.
> 
> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. Lift 
> is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - drag 
> is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a high 
> lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to win the 
> 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel depth rules.  
> When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel creating 
> additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the angle at which the wing cuts 
> into the water does have an effect but that is not what is meant by keel 
> lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but this May there 
> will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats that truly do lift 
> out of the water.Jerry
> 
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  
> 
> To: cnc-list  
> Cc: Lorne Serpa  
> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
> 
> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 30MkII.
> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift.
> So
> Does a wing keel create lift?
> Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle of 
> attack on the keel?
> Or..
> don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots.  It does nothing.
>  
> Lorne
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you 

Stus-List Australian Cup Wing Keel

[Chuck S via CnC-List]

Agree, 
John Bertrand wrote a book that described the design process of the Australian 
winged keel, the controversy around it, and he stated the keel was chosen to 
get more sail area within the rule, and the hull was very fast and another keel 
might have improved it further. That keel was weird, long along the bottom and 
narrow where it met the hull. Bertrand did a Herculean job overcoming several 
breakdowns including his bowman breaking his arm while aloft, which were all 
forgotten when the keel was unveiled. Liberty was a slower boat and Conners was 
challenged to defend the cup with his superior crew but inferior boat. Years 
later, Conners won the preliminary Cup races, and then switched to a faster 
boat. I think it was Young America. 

Later, Hunter and Catalina produced many production boats with short winged 
keels. The Rob Ball winged keel of the 1988 to 1995 vintage has much thicker 
wings and the PHRF ratings prove better performance. He managed to get the 
weight very low without increasing the displacement very much. 


Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C 34R 
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 

- Original Message -

From: "John Pennie via CnC-List"  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: "John Pennie"  
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 12:03:43 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift? 

Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing keel - 
other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule, I believe they referred 
to them as winglets. The also used a film on top of the keel called “riblets”- 
really. 

John 






On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
wrote: 

The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it back 
in Perth, Aus, in 1987. 

So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book somewhere 
on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an extension that 
goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps until after the 
races. I'll look it up later. 

Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked. 

Rob Abbott 
AZURA 
C 32 -84 
Halifax, N.S. 

On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote: 


(Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting). Keel lift is a 
horizontal, not vertical force. Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they are 
moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. Lift is 
the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - drag is the 
negative, resisting force. A good sailboat keel design has a high lift-to-drag 
ratio. Wing keels were developed by the Australians to win the 1983 America's 
Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel depth rules. When the boat 
heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel creating additional lift. This 
being said, I'm sure the angle at which the wing cuts into the water does have 
an effect but that is not what is meant by keel lift. The America's Cup left NY 
in 1983 never to return but this May there will be some preliminary cup races 
in NY Harbor with boats that truly do lift out of the water. Jerry 



-Original Message- 
From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  
To: cnc-list  
Cc: Lorne Serpa  
Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm 
Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift? 

So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'. It's a 1988 30MkII. 
It has a wing keel. I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift. 
So 
Does a wing keel create lift? 
Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle of 
attack on the keel? 
Or.. 
don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots. It does nothing. 
Lorne 
___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 



___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 





___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All 

Re: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Randy,

A PO raised Touche's boom about 6-8 inches.  I've never considered that
enough to file for a change to my PHRF rating since my main sail extends
fully to the design E dimension.

However, your main sounds considerably smaller than design.  Is that
reflected in your handicap rating?  If not, you might explore appealing for
a credit.  Not sure how your local rating organization handles changes but
you could see if you can get a credit if you leave it like it is.  I would
appeal my rating for a 3-6 second credit if the boat was in my rating
area.  Some advantages to this.  You can keep your existing main while you
learn the boat.  If you buy a new main, it will cost less.  Your crew will
appreciate the headroom.

Remember, your boat is primarily driven by the head sail.  The main sail
creates the slot and influences the flow through the slot to provide drive.

If you decide to return to design dimensions, just don't exceed your design
P and E dimensions and you should be OK.

http://www.cncphotoalbum.com/technical/measurements.htm

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA



Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Sun, May 1, 2016 at 10:45 AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Listers-
>
> I posted a few pictures from my first race in my new-to-me 30-1 (hull #7)
> last Wednesday night at
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTeUlmcm1IX1c5ZHc
>
> You can see the foot of my mainsail is considerably shorter than my boom.
> I'm wondering if that's "normal" for 30-1s (or other C for that
> matter).  It doesn't really look normal judging by brochure photos and
> drawings.
>
> A previous owner had also raised the boom at least a foot from its
> original height, as the C itself did on later C 30s.
>
> When I get a new mainsail I'd like to increase its area by both returning
> the boom to its original height, and increasing the length of mainsail's
> foot.  I'm thinking more area equals more power equals more speed.  And I
> can live with a lower boom.
>
> Any words of wisdom to share?
>
> Thanks,
> Randy Stafford
> S/V Grenadine
> C 30-1 #7
> Ken Caryl, CO
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?

[Chuck S via CnC-List]

Wing keel vs fin. 
I think, today's winged keels are the best, most practical, and efficient way 
to shorten draft, but sailing performance will be better w a deep, narrow fin. 
The wing gets the weight low, and maintains lift and righting moment. When the 
boat is heeled, the wings work like an endplate and improve lift and reduce 
leeway. However, most experts state that a deep fin will work more efficiently, 
point higher and be slightly faster. This is easily proven by comparing the 
PHRF ratings that give give credit to winged keels over fin, yet when checking 
this model the difference in PHRF is only 3 secs. 


Summary: The difference in draft of 17" is probably more important than the 
difference in performance of 3 sec/mile. 


Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C 34R 
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 

- Original Message -

From: "robert via CnC-List"  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: "robert"  
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 11:35:19 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift? 

The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it back 
in Perth, Aus, in 1987. 

So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book somewhere 
on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an extension that 
goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps until after the 
races. I'll look it up later. 

Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked. 

Rob Abbott 
AZURA 
C 32 -84 
Halifax, N.S. 

On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote: 


(Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting). Keel lift is a 
horizontal, not vertical force. Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they are 
moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. Lift is 
the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - drag is the 
negative, resisting force. A good sailboat keel design has a high lift-to-drag 
ratio. Wing keels were developed by the Australians to win the 1983 America's 
Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel depth rules. When the boat 
heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel creating additional lift. This 
being said, I'm sure the angle at which the wing cuts into the water does have 
an effect but that is not what is meant by keel lift. The America's Cup left NY 
in 1983 never to return but this May there will be some preliminary cup races 
in NY Harbor with boats that truly do lift out of the water. Jerry 



-Original Message- 
From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  
To: cnc-list  
Cc: Lorne Serpa  
Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm 
Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift? 

So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'. It's a 1988 30MkII. 
It has a wing keel. I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift. 
So 
Does a wing keel create lift? 
Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle of 
attack on the keel? 
Or.. 
don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots. It does nothing. 
Lorne 
___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 




___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

Your dates are right but I don’t believe there was any magic to the wing keel - 
other than a way around the 12 meter measurement rule,  I believe they referred 
to them as winglets.  The also used a film on top of the keel called “riblets”- 
really.

John



> On May 1, 2016, at 11:35 AM, robert via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won it 
> back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.   
> 
> So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
> Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
> somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
> extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under raps 
> until after the races.  I'll look it up later.
> 
> Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.
> 
> Rob Abbott
> AZURA
> C 32 -84 
> Halifax, N.S.
> 
> On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
>> (Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is a 
>> horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - when they 
>> are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces to develop. 
>> Lift is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to move to windward - 
>> drag is the negative, resisting force.  A good sailboat keel design has a 
>> high lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were developed by the Australians to 
>> win the 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. loss) by getting around the keel 
>> depth rules.  When the boat heels, the wings increase the draft of the keel 
>> creating additional lift.   This being said, I'm sure the angle at which the 
>> wing cuts into the water does have an effect but that is not what is meant 
>> by keel lift.   The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but this 
>> May there will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats that 
>> truly do lift out of the water.Jerry
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List  
>> 
>> To: cnc-list  
>> Cc: Lorne Serpa  
>> Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
>> Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?
>> 
>> So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 30MkII.
>> It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some lift.
>> So
>> Does a wing keel create lift?
>> Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased angle 
>> of attack on the keel?
>> Or..
>> don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots.  It does nothing.
>>  
>> Lorne
>> ___
>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
>> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
>> are greatly appreciated!
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
>> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
>> are greatly appreciated!
> 
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

Looks short to me.  Prior owner trying to “tame” the boat or perhaps make it 
more balanced with a smaller headsail?

John

> On May 1, 2016, at 11:45 AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Listers-
> 
> I posted a few pictures from my first race in my new-to-me 30-1 (hull #7) 
> last Wednesday night at 
> https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTeUlmcm1IX1c5ZHc 
> 
> 
> You can see the foot of my mainsail is considerably shorter than my boom.  
> I'm wondering if that's "normal" for 30-1s (or other C for that matter).  
> It doesn't really look normal judging by brochure photos and drawings.
> 
> A previous owner had also raised the boom at least a foot from its original 
> height, as the C itself did on later C 30s.
> 
> When I get a new mainsail I'd like to increase its area by both returning the 
> boom to its original height, and increasing the length of mainsail's foot.  
> I'm thinking more area equals more power equals more speed.  And I can live 
> with a lower boom.
> 
> Any words of wisdom to share?
> 
> Thanks,
> Randy Stafford
> S/V Grenadine
> C 30-1 #7
> Ken Caryl, CO
> ___
> 
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
> what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions 
> are greatly appreciated!

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List 30-1 Mainsail Foot Length

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Listers- 

I posted a few pictures from my first race in my new-to-me 30-1 (hull #7) last 
Wednesday night at 
https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B-NqAxQ6JxFTeUlmcm1IX1c5ZHc 

You can see the foot of my mainsail is considerably shorter than my boom. I'm 
wondering if that's "normal" for 30-1s (or other C for that matter). It 
doesn't really look normal judging by brochure photos and drawings. 

A previous owner had also raised the boom at least a foot from its original 
height, as the C itself did on later C 30s. 

When I get a new mainsail I'd like to increase its area by both returning the 
boom to its original height, and increasing the length of mainsail's foot. I'm 
thinking more area equals more power equals more speed. And I can live with a 
lower boom. 

Any words of wisdom to share? 

Thanks, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?

[robert via CnC-List]

The America's Cup left the NYYC in 1983 but I believe Dennis Conner won 
it back in Perth, Aus, in 1987.


So, correct, it did not return to New York City but I am confident the 
Americans won it back with an even different keel..I have a book 
somewhere on the keel he used in Perth..it's like a fin keel with an 
extension that goes back.there a name for it.they kept it under 
raps until after the races.  I'll look it up later.


Conner's tested it in Hawaii before bringing it to Perth..it worked.

Rob Abbott
AZURA
C 32 -84
Halifax, N.S.

On 2016-04-30 4:27 PM, Jerome Tauber via CnC-List wrote:
(Sorry - first posted this as reply to wrong posting).   Keel lift is 
a horizontal, not vertical force.   Keels are hydrodynamic foils - 
when they are moved through water they cause both lift and drag forces 
to develop. Lift is the positive lateral force that allows a boat to 
move to windward - drag is the negative, resisting force.  A good 
sailboat keel design has a high lift-to-drag ratio.  Wing keels were 
developed by the Australians to win the 1983 America's Cup (first U.S. 
loss) by getting around the keel depth rules.  When the boat heels, 
the wings increase the draft of the keel creating additional lift.   
This being said, I'm sure the angle at which the wing cuts into the 
water does have an effect but that is not what is meant by keel lift. 
  The America's Cup left NY in 1983 never to return but this May there 
will be some preliminary cup races in NY Harbor with boats that truly 
do lift out of the water.Jerry




-Original Message-
From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List 
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Lorne Serpa 
Sent: Sat, Apr 30, 2016 2:47 pm
Subject: Stus-List Wing Keel Lift?

So, working on buying my 1st sailboat greater than 15'.  It's a 1988 
30MkII.
It has a wing keel.  I read somewhere that a wing keel generates some 
lift.

So
Does a wing keel create lift?
Should I have more heavy stuff at the back of the boat for increased 
angle of attack on the keel?

Or..
don't be silly.. its a 8,000lb boat going 5 knots. It does nothing.
Lorne
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If 
you like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All 
Contributions are greatly appreciated!



___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Travel in Cockpit vs dodger.

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

Yes a dodger can be installed.  Most marine canvas makers can fabricate a
dodger.  The arches need to be engineered first.  This is usually provided
by the canvas maker too.  Then the  canvas maker has a skeleton around
which to stretch the canvas.  Whoever is making the arches will be able to
work with you to consider winch handle swing radius, head height, boom
height, traveller/main sheet path, and a multitude of other variables that
are unique to every boat.

A pricey but long lasting and sturdy option is a hard top dodger from Dan
Wood at Canvas Creations.  Traditional dodgers can be folded up and laid
forward on the cabin top.  It is made almost entirely of canvas except for
the windows.  A hardtop is more or less permanent and doesn't fold.  The
top can be made of a variety of hard permanent materials.  Canvas Creations
uses King Starboard to make theirs.  The nice thing is that it will never
leak or wear out.  The canvas and windows on the sides will need replaced
but that's a much smaller cost and concern.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 C 37+
Solomons, MD
On Apr 30, 2016 11:21 PM, "Lorne Serpa via CnC-List" 
wrote:

On my SOON  to be 1988 CNC 30MKII, the traveler is in the cockpit vice
cabin top.  Can a dodger be installed?  Also,  anyone know where to get a
dodge in the Chesapeake Bay area?

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
Contributions are greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List seacocks

[Chuck S via CnC-List]

Hi Adam, 
I think new valves and new hoses, clamps, etc, are in order. There are a few 
choices. 

I like Forespar Marelon thruhulls. No metal to corrode. 
http://www.pbsboatstore.com/forespar-marelon-flanged-seacocks.htm?feed=Froogle=CIjrmMmWucwCFdBZhgodnJMGCw
 

Groco makes several bronze thruhulls. I would suggest all bronze, no disimilar 
metals. http://www.groco.net/00-scks-valves/bv.htm 

My 2 cents. 

Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 C 34R 
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 

- Original Message -

From: "Adam Hayden via CnC-List"  
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: "Adam Hayden"  
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 9:13:51 AM 
Subject: Stus-List Original gate valves 

I need some guidance. I was in the process of trying to dismantle the original 
c and c valves on the cockpit drains as they were seized and have been worried 
about potential flooding. Ion the process I have the valve half out. Meaning 
the rubber gasket where you use the screw handle on the backside to push out 
the valve and gasket. The t handle broke off. Am I now going to have to remove 
and replace the entire valve? I think the original was bonded with 5200 to the 
hull. and am working on the starboard side through the bottom of the quarter 
berth. 

Any guidance would be much appreciated. 

Adam 

Sent from my iPhone 
___ 

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated! 

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Update on valves

[Adam Hayden via CnC-List]

Sorry my bad.   They are the marine sea cocks not the gate valve.  I should 
have said ball type valve.   

Thanks for the reminder guys.   
Sent from my iPhone
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Dodger windshield cleaner/protector

[schiller via CnC-List]

We also use the IMar Strataglass Polish.  Works well on our Dodger.

Neil Schiller
1970 Redwing 35, Hull #7
(C 35, Mark I)
"Corsair"

On 5/1/2016 7:25 AM, Jake Brodersen via CnC-List wrote:


Dennis,

I use a product from Imar called Strataglass Polish.  It is highly 
recommended by Practical Sailor.  It works wonders on my 20 year old 
dodger windows.


Jake

*Jake Brodersen*

*C 35 Mk-III “Midnight Mistress”*

*Hampton VA*

*From:*CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of 
*Dennis C. via CnC-List

*Sent:* Saturday, April 30, 2016 14:18
*To:* CnClist 
*Cc:* Dennis C. 
*Subject:* Stus-List Dodger windshield cleaner/protector

Touche' got a new windshield last week.  It's a simple quick on/quick 
off thing for deliveries and transits.  It's not the expensive 
Isinglass stuff but the less expensive clear vinyl or whatever.


I have no experience with cleaning/protecting a windshield.  Internet 
research shows plastic cleaner/protectors by Plexus and Camco Armada 210.


Thoughts/recommendations from the list?

Dennis C.

Touche' 35-1 #83

Mandeville, LA



___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Original gate valves

[Joe Della Barba via CnC-List]

+1
I am amazed they lasted this long. We had to do this long ago to pass an
insurance survey - maybe around 1978 or so.
C was using their "cheap stuff from the hardware store for a boat on a
freshwater lake" thinking when they bought those valves. Same guy that used
steel plates for backing up the keel bolts and an iron collar on the rudder
post (what could possibly go wrong?)

Joe Della Barba
j...@dellabarba.com
Coquina C 35 mK I
-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Gary
Nylander via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 01, 2016 10:17 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Gary Nylander 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Original gate valves

If they are gate valves (like a faucet), get rid of them. The likely reason
they broke when you worked on them is they are old and corroded. Replace
them with proper marine parts for your safety.

Gary
30-1
St. Michaels MD

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Adam
Hayden via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 9:14 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Adam Hayden 
Subject: Stus-List Original gate valves

I need some guidance.I was in the process of trying to dismantle the
original c and c valves on the cockpit drains as they were seized and have
been worried about potential flooding.Ion the process I have the valve
half out. Meaning the rubber gasket where you use the screw handle on the
backside to push out the valve and gasket.   The t handle broke off.  Am I
now going to have to remove and replace the entire valve?   I think the
original was bonded with 5200 to the hull.  and am working on the starboard
side through the bottom of the quarter berth.   

Any guidance would be much appreciated.   

Adam

Sent from my iPhone
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions
are greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions
are greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Original gate valves

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

If they are gate valves (like a faucet), get rid of them. The likely reason
they broke when you worked on them is they are old and corroded. Replace
them with proper marine parts for your safety.

Gary 
30-1 
St. Michaels MD

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Adam
Hayden via CnC-List
Sent: Sunday, May 1, 2016 9:14 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Adam Hayden 
Subject: Stus-List Original gate valves

I need some guidance.I was in the process of trying to dismantle the
original c and c valves on the cockpit drains as they were seized and have
been worried about potential flooding.Ion the process I have the valve
half out. Meaning the rubber gasket where you use the screw handle on the
backside to push out the valve and gasket.   The t handle broke off.  Am I
now going to have to remove and replace the entire valve?   I think the
original was bonded with 5200 to the hull.  and am working on the starboard
side through the bottom of the quarter berth.   

Any guidance would be much appreciated.   

Adam

Sent from my iPhone
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions
are greatly appreciated!


___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Stus-List Original gate valves

[Adam Hayden via CnC-List]

I need some guidance.I was in the process of trying to dismantle the 
original c and c valves on the cockpit drains as they were seized and have been 
worried about potential flooding.Ion the process I have the valve half out. 
Meaning the rubber gasket where you use the screw handle on the backside to 
push out the valve and gasket.   The t handle broke off.  Am I now going to 
have to remove and replace the entire valve?   I think the original was bonded 
with 5200 to the hull.  and am working on the starboard side through the bottom 
of the quarter berth.   

Any guidance would be much appreciated.   

Adam

Sent from my iPhone
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Dodger windshield cleaner/protector

[jim aridas via CnC-List]

210 is great stuff, requires little effort, spray on, polish with an old soft 
tee shirt, crystal clear results. I use it on my other boat  (the one without 
the mast) JimGalaxy 34Brielle, NJ


Sent from my Verizon Wireless 4G LTE smartphone

 Original message 
From: Fred Hazzard via CnC-List 
Date: 04/30/2016  11:25 PM  (GMT-05:00)
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Fred Hazzard 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Dodger windshield cleaner/protector

My boat neighbor uses Pledge furniture polish.  It looks great.  If he get
scuff marks he power buffs with cleaner wax that has a very fine abrasive.

Fred Hazzard
S/V Fury
C 44
Portland, Oregon
On Apr 30, 2016 8:10 PM, "Rick Brass via CnC-List" 
wrote:

> Dennis,
>
>
>
> The folks who made my dodger recommend a product called Klear 2 Sea.
>
>
>
> My friends at the local West Marine agree. They recommended  using the
> version in the pump spray bottle. More material than the aerosol for less
> money, and you aren’t paying for propellant. They also said it is
> chemically the same as the Plexus cleaner/polish and less expensive than
> the West Marine version.
>
>
>
> I presume that you already know not to use Windex or similar window
> cleaners. I’m told the ammonia in window cleaners will fog the
> Isinglass/vinyl. Mild soap and water seems desirable, but the
> cleaner/protectants are supposed to have a component that bonds to the
> window material to protect from UV degradations. I suppose it is something
> like the ingredient is Armor ALL.
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Dennis
> C. via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Saturday, April 30, 2016 2:18 PM
> *To:* CnClist 
> *Cc:* Dennis C. 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Dodger windshield cleaner/protector
>
>
>
> Touche' got a new windshield last week.  It's a simple quick on/quick off
> thing for deliveries and transits.  It's not the expensive Isinglass stuff
> but the less expensive clear vinyl or whatever.
>
> I have no experience with cleaning/protecting a windshield.  Internet
> research shows plastic cleaner/protectors by Plexus and Camco Armada 210.
>
> Thoughts/recommendations from the list?
>
> Dennis C.
>
> Touche' 35-1 #83
>
> Mandeville, LA
>
> ___
>
> This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you
> like what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All
> Contributions are greatly appreciated!
>
>
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Travel in Cockpit vs dodger.

[allen via CnC-List]

Lorne,

Where are you on the Chesapeake?  Are you buying "SeaCure?

We typically sign our emails with vessel, model and location. 

Allen Miles
S/V Septima  30-2
Hampton, VA


From: Lorne Serpa via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 11:20 PM
To: Cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: Lorne Serpa 
Subject: Stus-List Travel in Cockpit vs dodger.


On my SOON  to be 1988 CNC 30MKII, the traveler is in the cockpit vice cabin 
top.  Can a dodger be installed?  Also,  anyone know where to get a dodge in 
the Chesapeake Bay area? 






___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!
___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!

Re: Stus-List Dodger windshield cleaner/protector

[Jake Brodersen via CnC-List]

Dennis,

 

I use a product from Imar called Strataglass Polish.  It is highly recommended 
by Practical Sailor.  It works wonders on my 20 year old dodger windows.

 

Jake

 

Jake Brodersen

C 35 Mk-III “Midnight Mistress”

Hampton VA

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C. 
via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, April 30, 2016 14:18
To: CnClist 
Cc: Dennis C. 
Subject: Stus-List Dodger windshield cleaner/protector

 

Touche' got a new windshield last week.  It's a simple quick on/quick off thing 
for deliveries and transits.  It's not the expensive Isinglass stuff but the 
less expensive clear vinyl or whatever.  

I have no experience with cleaning/protecting a windshield.  Internet research 
shows plastic cleaner/protectors by Plexus and Camco Armada 210.

Thoughts/recommendations from the list?

Dennis C.

Touche' 35-1 #83

Mandeville, LA

___

This list is supported by the generous donations of our members. If you like 
what we do, please help us pay for our costs by donating. All Contributions are 
greatly appreciated!