Stus-List Racing at night

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

I just read an interesting article in Practical Sailor on red vs. white lights 
and night vision.  It reminded me to ask a question of those more experienced 
about night racing.  I have only done this a few times and found upwind 
steering at night to be a real challenge.  I normally steer by the genoa 
telltales.  In light, shifting winds which we inevitably encounter at the 
darkest hours, it is especially important to steer well to keep the boat 
moving, but it is hard.   We used a hand held spotlight to periodically check 
the telltales, but that destroys night vision.  Are there better solutions?  
Thanks- Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



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Stus-List Racing fleets and getting sailors to participate

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

I noticed looking at Bill’s link about his spinnaker that his club has three 
racing fleets: Spinnaker, Family JAM and Jib & Main.  I don’t know what those 
represent, but am curious.
I am in charge of racing for our club this year (for the first time) and one of 
the things I am looking into is whether we can increase participation in racing 
by our members.  One idea I am exploring is having a “green fleet” for those 
new to raicng to get them invoved in a low stress format (primarily start 
timing when you get to the line).  We would also have a pre and post race 
skippers meeting/discussion to talk about the race, rules, etc..
This group seems like a good place to get ideas as to what other clubs do in 
terms of racing fleets and encouraging participation from those who are not 
traditionally participating.  Has anything in particular worked well for your 
club?  Thanks- Dave

S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



Thanks to all of the subscribers that contributed to the list to help with the 
costs involved.  If you want to show your support to the list - use PayPal to 
send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray  Thanks - Stu

Stus-List Racing rules- finishing

[David Knecht]

I was reading this article today about shooting the finish line in a race.  I 
have done this instinctively a few times, not realizing I was following in 
Dennis Conner’s footsteps.  The article mentions that you should avoid hitting 
the pin after finishing.  My question is, if some part of the boat crosses the 
line, so you have finished, and then you touch the pin buoy, is it of no 
consequence or is there a penalty?  Dave

https://www.sailingworld.com//story/how-to/shoot-to-the-finish/?utm_source=internal_medium=email=i-1NGB-Et-QxB-17Y9co-1c-223B-1c-17Y9Nm-l58JYxBwKw-1J3dNx


S/V Aries
1990 C 34+
New London, CT



___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Shawn Wright via CnC-List]

Our club uses about a dozen permanent marks, and most of them are either CG
or Navy marks or buoys; each is assigned a letter for making the course
easy to note on a board. When a dropped mark is used, it is denoted "X" and
a bearing from the start is stated; this is generally only for weekly RTB
races. Distance race always use permanent marks, and sometimes are just
"round the island(s)". The start line often uses the CG buoy off the
lighthouse at the harbour entrance as one end, and the RC boat as the
other, which makes courses easy to set up, and allows for a split
inshore/offshore course depending on division, or a quick switch to either
inshore or offshore if there is a sudden wind change, common in the winter.
We had three races in a row where wind was <5 at the start, and 35+ less
than an hour later...
--
Shawn Wright
shawngwri...@gmail.com
S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35
https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto


On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 2:17 PM dwight veinot via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I am not sure if I would be interested in sailboat racing around there. In
> fact nowadays i am not sure i am interested in sailboat racing at all until
>  i see a sail close by. Then the skills i learned in racing and the
> adrenaline peaks much to the dismay of one crew, the Admiral some say, but
> good sport she is and confident in me so we play and I gotta tell you that
> C 35 we got is one slippery boat and such a comfortable racer/cruiser to
> sail. Classic Plastic
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 4:57 PM Donald Kern via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> Edd,
>> On Narragansett Bay almost all the clubs use Gov't marks augmented by
>> RC/YC dropped marks for their courses.  If a mark starts drifting or the
>> USCG pulls a gov't mark the race is normally abandoned.  Narragansett bay
>> East passage is defined by the USCG as a "Narrow Channel" and therefor
>> deepdraft vessels have the right of way over sailboats.  Sooo... about once
>> a year some boat attempts to cross the bow of a laden commercial deepdraft
>> and gets 5 short blast and the RC gets a call from the pilot.  (Duct tape
>> does not fix stupid!!).  In fact next week the USCG is speaking to a group
>> of the various race committees on an incident last year.  All organizing
>> authorities are required to notify the USCG of their events which are
>> published in Notice to Mariners.
>>
>> Like others that have spoken, virtual marks would be problematic.
>>
>> Don Kern
>> Fireball, C 35 Mk2
>> Bristol, RI
>>
>>
>>
>> On 3/6/2020 1:06 PM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List wrote:
>>
>> I agree too.
>>
>> On March 6, 2020 at 11:58 AM dwight veinot via CnC-List
>>   wrote:
>>
>> Same here agree with Joe
>>
>> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:14 AM Matt Wolford via CnC-List <
>> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>>
>> As usual, I agree with Joe.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Della
>> Barba, Joe via CnC-List
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2020 9:41 AM
>> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> *Cc:* Della Barba, Joe 
>> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
>>
>>
>>
>> IMHO this is a bad idea.
>>
>> The whole idea of how mark roundings happen in racing cannot work if the
>> notional idea of where the mark is differs by even 5 or 10 feet from boat
>> to boat. I would either use government marks or you all cough up enough
>> cash to get an old Whaler and teenager to run around moving marks.
>>
>> Joe
>>
>> Coquina
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Matt
>> Wolford via CnC-List
>> *Sent:* Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
>> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
>> *Cc:* wolf...@erie.net
>> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C
>> Related
>>
>>
>>
>> I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was
>> missing.  The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational
>> rounding” – which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the
>> race was abandoned.
>>
>>
>>
>> As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees
>> ahead of time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said,
>> don’t be surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Edd
>> Schillay via CnC-List
>> *Sent:* Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
>> *To:* Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
>> *Cc:* Edd Schillay 
>&

Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

I am not sure if I would be interested in sailboat racing around there. In
fact nowadays i am not sure i am interested in sailboat racing at all until
 i see a sail close by. Then the skills i learned in racing and the
adrenaline peaks much to the dismay of one crew, the Admiral some say, but
good sport she is and confident in me so we play and I gotta tell you that
C 35 we got is one slippery boat and such a comfortable racer/cruiser to
sail. Classic Plastic

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 4:57 PM Donald Kern via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Edd,
> On Narragansett Bay almost all the clubs use Gov't marks augmented by
> RC/YC dropped marks for their courses.  If a mark starts drifting or the
> USCG pulls a gov't mark the race is normally abandoned.  Narragansett bay
> East passage is defined by the USCG as a "Narrow Channel" and therefor
> deepdraft vessels have the right of way over sailboats.  Sooo... about once
> a year some boat attempts to cross the bow of a laden commercial deepdraft
> and gets 5 short blast and the RC gets a call from the pilot.  (Duct tape
> does not fix stupid!!).  In fact next week the USCG is speaking to a group
> of the various race committees on an incident last year.  All organizing
> authorities are required to notify the USCG of their events which are
> published in Notice to Mariners.
>
> Like others that have spoken, virtual marks would be problematic.
>
> Don Kern
> Fireball, C 35 Mk2
> Bristol, RI
>
>
>
> On 3/6/2020 1:06 PM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List wrote:
>
> I agree too.
>
> On March 6, 2020 at 11:58 AM dwight veinot via CnC-List
>   wrote:
>
> Same here agree with Joe
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:14 AM Matt Wolford via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> As usual, I agree with Joe.
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Della
> Barba, Joe via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2020 9:41 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Della Barba, Joe 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
>
>
>
> IMHO this is a bad idea.
>
> The whole idea of how mark roundings happen in racing cannot work if the
> notional idea of where the mark is differs by even 5 or 10 feet from boat
> to boat. I would either use government marks or you all cough up enough
> cash to get an old Whaler and teenager to run around moving marks.
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Matt
> Wolford via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* wolf...@erie.net
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C
> Related
>
>
>
> I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was
> missing.  The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational
> rounding” – which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the
> race was abandoned.
>
>
>
> As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees
> ahead of time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said,
> don’t be surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice.
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Edd
> Schillay via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
> *To:* Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
> *Cc:* Edd Schillay 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
>
>
>
> Listers,
>
>
>
> As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the
> Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting
> involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy.
>
>
>
> One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in
> the water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut
> loose, vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run.
> And there is no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or
> put up an M flag to act as one.
>
>
>
> Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing,
> which is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that
> say something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more
> than 300 feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race
> committee is unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated
> latitude/longitude position.”
>
>
>
> Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again,
> not to have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared.
>
>
>
> Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice?
> If so, why?
>
>
>
> Appreciate anyone’s 

Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Donald Kern via CnC-List]

Edd,
On Narragansett Bay almost all the clubs use Gov't marks augmented by 
RC/YC dropped marks for their courses.  If a mark starts drifting or the 
USCG pulls a gov't mark the race is normally abandoned. Narragansett bay 
East passage is defined by the USCG as a "Narrow Channel" and therefor 
deepdraft vessels have the right of way over sailboats.  Sooo... about 
once a year some boat attempts to cross the bow of a laden commercial 
deepdraft and gets 5 short blast and the RC gets a call from the pilot.  
(Duct tape does not fix stupid!!).  In fact next week the USCG is 
speaking to a group of the various race committees on an incident last 
year.  All organizing authorities are required to notify the USCG of 
their events which are published in Notice to Mariners.


Like others that have spoken, virtual marks would be problematic.

Don Kern
Fireball, C 35 Mk2
Bristol, RI


On 3/6/2020 1:06 PM, CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List wrote:

I agree too.
On March 6, 2020 at 11:58 AM dwight veinot via CnC-List 
 wrote:


Same here agree with Joe

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:14 AM Matt Wolford via CnC-List < 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


As usual, I agree with Joe.

*From:* CnC-List mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> *On Behalf Of *Della
Barba, Joe via CnC-List
*Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2020 9:41 AM
*To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Cc:* Della Barba, Joe mailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov>>
*Subject:* Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

IMHO this is a bad idea.

The whole idea of how mark roundings happen in racing cannot work
if the notional idea of where the mark is differs by even 5 or 10
feet from boat to boat. I would either use government marks or
you all cough up enough cash to get an old Whaler and teenager to
run around moving marks.

Joe

Coquina

*From:* CnC-List mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> *On Behalf Of *Matt
Wolford via CnC-List
*Sent:* Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
*To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
*Cc:* wolf...@erie.net <mailto:wolf...@erie.net>
*Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not
C Related

I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark
was missing.  The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a
“navigational rounding” – which it may have done – but everyone
was so skeptical that the race was abandoned.

As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone
agrees ahead of time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet
decides.  That said, don’t be surprised if you get some
disgruntlement in practice.

*From:* CnC-List mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> *On Behalf Of *Edd
Schillay via CnC-List
*Sent:* Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
*To:* Edd Schillay via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
*Cc:* Edd Schillay mailto:e...@schillay.com>>
*Subject:* Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

Listers,

As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office
and the Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida —
and I’m getting involved in the race management over here, which
has been terribly lazy.

One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are
dropped in the water a day or two in advance of a regatta and
then are either cut loose, vandalized or have broken free by the
time a race is actually run. And there is no chase boat usually
available to either drop a new mark or put up an M flag to act as
one.

Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is
missing, which is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language
in the SIs that say something along the lines of “If a mark is
missing or has moved more than 300 feet from its stated
latitude/longitude position, and the race committee is unable to
replace it, then the mark shall be the stated latitude/longitude
position.”

Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and
again, not to have to cancel a regatta because a mark has
disappeared.

Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the
practice? If so, why?

Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s.


All the best,

Edd

Edd M. Schillay

Captain of the Starship Enterprise

C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B

Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL

Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log

<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=8b8d4e0f-d71b06af-8b8d6778-0cc47adca788-2339de501a1a3902=1=2b84bce6-00f4-439c-a29c-a36df77fc2c1=http%3A%2F%2Fenterpriseb.blogspot.com%2F>






___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your
contributions.  Each and e

Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Jim Reinardy via CnC-List]

Our club now has a permanent buoy that we use as a turning mark, but we used 
government marks or permanent marks placed by other yacht clubs (with their 
permission) for many years.  We race upwind/downwind courses so our volunteer 
committee boats (normally sailboats) drop an inflatable mark downwind of the 
turning mark for the other end of the start line on the night of the race with 
the boat as the other end.  No issues with vandalism or anchors holding and it 
is a reasonable task for a sailboat on the night of the race.  Just my 2 cents.
 
Jim Reinardy
C 30-2 "Firewater"
Milwaukee, WI
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Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Joe,

no clue!  She could see we were turning at the mark.  Wind was light, but
no one got near her side of the channel.  No need for 5 blasts ...

Joel

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 1:38 PM Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Why did she care? Did she think you were all going to keep going?
>
>
>
>
>
> *Joe Della Barba*
>
> *Behalf Of *Joel Aronson via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Friday, March 6, 2020 1:10 PM
> *To:* cnc-list 
> *Cc:* Joel Aronson 
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C
> Related
>
>
>
> Last year for Hospice Cup the RC used a government mark.  We did not need
> to cross the channel, just round the mark off Annapolis. The fleet arrived
> about the same time as a freighter (on the other side of the channel).  The
> pilot hailed the RC and made her displeasure known.  Can't please everyone.
>
>
>
> Joel
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 1:07 PM Neil Andersen via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> Using permanent marks makes sense and are typically in you chart plotter
> to make pre-programming easier.
>
>
>
> Neil
>
> 1982 C 32, FoxFire
>
> Rock Hall, MD
>
>
>
> Neil Andersen
>
> 20691 Jamieson Rd
>
> Rock Hall, MD 21661
> --
>
> *From:* CnC-List  on behalf of dwight
> veinot via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Friday, March 6, 2020 11:58:20 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> *Cc:* dwight veinot 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
>
>
>
> Same here agree with Joe
>
>
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:14 AM Matt Wolford via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> As usual, I agree with Joe.
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Della
> Barba, Joe via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2020 9:41 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Della Barba, Joe 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
>
>
>
> IMHO this is a bad idea.
>
> The whole idea of how mark roundings happen in racing cannot work if the
> notional idea of where the mark is differs by even 5 or 10 feet from boat
> to boat. I would either use government marks or you all cough up enough
> cash to get an old Whaler and teenager to run around moving marks.
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Matt
> Wolford via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* wolf...@erie.net
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C
> Related
>
>
>
> I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was
> missing.  The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational
> rounding” – which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the
> race was abandoned.
>
>
>
> As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees
> ahead of time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said,
> don’t be surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice.
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Edd
> Schillay via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
> *To:* Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
> *Cc:* Edd Schillay 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
>
>
>
> Listers,
>
>
>
> As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the
> Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting
> involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy.
>
>
>
> One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in
> the water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut
> loose, vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run.
> And there is no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or
> put up an M flag to act as one.
>
>
>
> Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing,
> which is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that
> say something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more
> than 300 feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race
> committee is unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated
> latitude/longitude position.”
>
>
>
> Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again,
> not to have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared.
>
>
>
> Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice?
> If so, why?
>
>
>
> Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s.
>
>
> All 

Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

Why did she care? Did she think you were all going to keep going?


Joe Della Barba
Behalf Of Joel Aronson via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 1:10 PM
To: cnc-list 
Cc: Joel Aronson 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

Last year for Hospice Cup the RC used a government mark.  We did not need to 
cross the channel, just round the mark off Annapolis. The fleet arrived about 
the same time as a freighter (on the other side of the channel).  The pilot 
hailed the RC and made her displeasure known.  Can't please everyone.

Joel

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 1:07 PM Neil Andersen via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Using permanent marks makes sense and are typically in you chart plotter to 
make pre-programming easier.

Neil
1982 C 32, FoxFire
Rock Hall, MD

Neil Andersen
20691 Jamieson Rd
Rock Hall, MD 21661

From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> on behalf 
of dwight veinot via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 11:58:20 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: dwight veinot mailto:dwight...@gmail.com>>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

Same here agree with Joe

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:14 AM Matt Wolford via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

As usual, I agree with Joe.



From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf 
Of Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 9:41 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Della Barba, Joe mailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov>>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related



IMHO this is a bad idea.

The whole idea of how mark roundings happen in racing cannot work if the 
notional idea of where the mark is differs by even 5 or 10 feet from boat to 
boat. I would either use government marks or you all cough up enough cash to 
get an old Whaler and teenager to run around moving marks.

Joe

Coquina





From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf 
Of Matt Wolford via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: wolf...@erie.net<mailto:wolf...@erie.net>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related



I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was missing.  
The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational rounding” – 
which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the race was 
abandoned.



As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees ahead of 
time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said, don’t be 
surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice.



From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf 
Of Edd Schillay via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
To: Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Edd Schillay mailto:e...@schillay.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related



Listers,



As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the 
Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting 
involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy.



One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in the 
water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut loose, 
vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run. And there is 
no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or put up an M flag 
to act as one.



Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing, which 
is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that say 
something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more than 300 
feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race committee is 
unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated latitude/longitude 
position.”



Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again, not to 
have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared.



Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice? If 
so, why?



Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s.

All the best,



Edd





Edd M. Schillay

Captain of the Starship Enterprise

C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B

Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL



Starship Enterprise's Captain's 
Log<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=8b8d4e0f-d71b06af-8b8d6778-0cc47adca788-2339de501a1a3902=1=2b84bce6-00f4-439c-a29c-a36df77fc2c1=http%3A%2F%2Fenterpriseb.blogspot.com%2F>














___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one 

Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Joel Aronson via CnC-List]

Last year for Hospice Cup the RC used a government mark.  We did not need
to cross the channel, just round the mark off Annapolis. The fleet arrived
about the same time as a freighter (on the other side of the channel).  The
pilot hailed the RC and made her displeasure known.  Can't please everyone.

Joel

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 1:07 PM Neil Andersen via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Using permanent marks makes sense and are typically in you chart plotter
> to make pre-programming easier.
>
> Neil
> 1982 C 32, FoxFire
> Rock Hall, MD
>
> Neil Andersen
> 20691 Jamieson Rd
> Rock Hall, MD 21661
> --
> *From:* CnC-List  on behalf of dwight
> veinot via CnC-List 
> *Sent:* Friday, March 6, 2020 11:58:20 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
> *Cc:* dwight veinot 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
>
> Same here agree with Joe
>
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:14 AM Matt Wolford via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
> As usual, I agree with Joe.
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Della
> Barba, Joe via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2020 9:41 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Della Barba, Joe 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
>
>
>
> IMHO this is a bad idea.
>
> The whole idea of how mark roundings happen in racing cannot work if the
> notional idea of where the mark is differs by even 5 or 10 feet from boat
> to boat. I would either use government marks or you all cough up enough
> cash to get an old Whaler and teenager to run around moving marks.
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Matt
> Wolford via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* wolf...@erie.net
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C
> Related
>
>
>
> I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was
> missing.  The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational
> rounding” – which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the
> race was abandoned.
>
>
>
> As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees
> ahead of time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said,
> don’t be surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice.
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Edd
> Schillay via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
> *To:* Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
> *Cc:* Edd Schillay 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
>
>
>
> Listers,
>
>
>
> As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the
> Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting
> involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy.
>
>
>
> One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in
> the water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut
> loose, vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run.
> And there is no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or
> put up an M flag to act as one.
>
>
>
> Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing,
> which is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that
> say something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more
> than 300 feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race
> committee is unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated
> latitude/longitude position.”
>
>
>
> Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again,
> not to have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared.
>
>
>
> Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice?
> If so, why?
>
>
>
> Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Edd
>
>
>
>
>
> Edd M. Schillay
>
> Captain of the Starship Enterprise
>
> C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
>
> Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL
>
>
>
> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log
> <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=8b8d4e0f-d71b06af-8b8d6778-0cc47adca788-2339de501a1a3902=1=2b84bce6-00f4-439c-a29c-a36df77fc2c1=http%3A%2F%2Fenterpriseb.blogspot.com%2F>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -

Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Neil Andersen via CnC-List]

Using permanent marks makes sense and are typically in you chart plotter to 
make pre-programming easier.

Neil
1982 C 32, FoxFire
Rock Hall, MD

Neil Andersen
20691 Jamieson Rd
Rock Hall, MD 21661

From: CnC-List  on behalf of dwight veinot via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 11:58:20 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: dwight veinot 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

Same here agree with Joe

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:14 AM Matt Wolford via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:

As usual, I agree with Joe.



From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf 
Of Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 9:41 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: Della Barba, Joe mailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov>>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related



IMHO this is a bad idea.

The whole idea of how mark roundings happen in racing cannot work if the 
notional idea of where the mark is differs by even 5 or 10 feet from boat to 
boat. I would either use government marks or you all cough up enough cash to 
get an old Whaler and teenager to run around moving marks.

Joe

Coquina





From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf 
Of Matt Wolford via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: wolf...@erie.net<mailto:wolf...@erie.net>
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related



I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was missing.  
The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational rounding” – 
which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the race was 
abandoned.



As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees ahead of 
time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said, don’t be 
surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice.



From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf 
Of Edd Schillay via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
To: Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Edd Schillay mailto:e...@schillay.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related



Listers,



As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the 
Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting 
involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy.



One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in the 
water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut loose, 
vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run. And there is 
no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or put up an M flag 
to act as one.



Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing, which 
is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that say 
something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more than 300 
feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race committee is 
unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated latitude/longitude 
position.”



Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again, not to 
have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared.



Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice? If 
so, why?



Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s.

All the best,



Edd





Edd M. Schillay

Captain of the Starship Enterprise

C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B

Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL



Starship Enterprise's Captain's 
Log<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=8b8d4e0f-d71b06af-8b8d6778-0cc47adca788-2339de501a1a3902=1=2b84bce6-00f4-439c-a29c-a36df77fc2c1=http%3A%2F%2Fenterpriseb.blogspot.com%2F>















___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[CHARLES SCHEAFFER via CnC-List]

I agree too.  

> On March 6, 2020 at 11:58 AM dwight veinot via CnC-List 
>  wrote:
> 
> Same here agree with Joe 
> 
> On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:14 AM Matt Wolford via CnC-List < 
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com > wrote:
> 
> > > 
> > As usual, I agree with Joe.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > From: CnC-List  > mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com > On Behalf Of Della Barba, Joe via 
> > CnC-List
> > Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 9:41 AM
> > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> >     Cc: Della Barba, Joe  > mailto:joe.della.ba...@ssa.gov >
> > Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > IMHO this is a bad idea.
> > 
> > The whole idea of how mark roundings happen in racing cannot work 
> > if the notional idea of where the mark is differs by even 5 or 10 feet from 
> > boat to boat. I would either use government marks or you all cough up 
> > enough cash to get an old Whaler and teenager to run around moving marks.
> > 
> > Joe
> > 
> > Coquina
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > From: CnC-List  > mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com > On Behalf Of Matt Wolford via 
> > CnC-List
> > Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
> > To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> > Cc: wolf...@erie.net mailto:wolf...@erie.net
> > Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C 
> > Related
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark 
> > was missing.  The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a 
> > “navigational rounding” – which it may have done – but everyone was so 
> > skeptical that the race was abandoned.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone 
> > agrees ahead of time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  
> > That said, don’t be surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice.
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > From: CnC-List  > mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com > On Behalf Of Edd Schillay via 
> > CnC-List
> > Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
> > To: Edd Schillay via CnC-List  > mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com >
> > Cc: Edd Schillay mailto:e...@schillay.com >
> > Subject: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Listers,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and 
> > the Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m 
> > getting involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly 
> > lazy. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are 
> > dropped in the water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are 
> > either cut loose, vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is 
> > actually run. And there is no chase boat usually available to either drop a 
> > new mark or put up an M flag to act as one. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is 
> > missing, which is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the 
> > SIs that say something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has 
> > moved more than 300 feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and 
> > the race committee is unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the 
> > stated latitude/longitude position.”
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and 
> > again, not to have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared. 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the 
> > practice? If so, why? 
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s. 
> > 
> > 
> > All the best,
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Edd
> > 
> >  
> > 
> >  
> > 
> > Edd M. Schillay
> > 
> > Captain of the Starship Enterprise
> > 
> >  

Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Same here agree with Joe

On Fri, Mar 6, 2020 at 11:14 AM Matt Wolford via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> As usual, I agree with Joe.
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Della
> Barba, Joe via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Friday, March 06, 2020 9:41 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* Della Barba, Joe 
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
>
>
>
> IMHO this is a bad idea.
>
> The whole idea of how mark roundings happen in racing cannot work if the
> notional idea of where the mark is differs by even 5 or 10 feet from boat
> to boat. I would either use government marks or you all cough up enough
> cash to get an old Whaler and teenager to run around moving marks.
>
> Joe
>
> Coquina
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Matt
> Wolford via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* wolf...@erie.net
> *Subject:* [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C
> Related
>
>
>
> I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was
> missing.  The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational
> rounding” – which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the
> race was abandoned.
>
>
>
> As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees
> ahead of time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said,
> don’t be surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice.
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List  *On Behalf Of *Edd
> Schillay via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
> *To:* Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
> *Cc:* Edd Schillay 
> *Subject:* Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related
>
>
>
> Listers,
>
>
>
> As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the
> Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting
> involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy.
>
>
>
> One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in
> the water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut
> loose, vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run.
> And there is no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or
> put up an M flag to act as one.
>
>
>
> Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing,
> which is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that
> say something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more
> than 300 feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race
> committee is unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated
> latitude/longitude position.”
>
>
>
> Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again,
> not to have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared.
>
>
>
> Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice?
> If so, why?
>
>
>
> Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s.
>
>
> All the best,
>
>
>
> Edd
>
>
>
>
>
> Edd M. Schillay
>
> Captain of the Starship Enterprise
>
> C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
>
> Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL
>
>
>
> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log
> <https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=8b8d4e0f-d71b06af-8b8d6778-0cc47adca788-2339de501a1a3902=1=2b84bce6-00f4-439c-a29c-a36df77fc2c1=http%3A%2F%2Fenterpriseb.blogspot.com%2F>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> --
Sent from Gmail Mobile
___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[David Risch via CnC-List]

Agree with Chuck...that being said if its an offshore race waypoints are an 
option.  But coastal?  Too much room for accidental and intentional shenanigans.




Sent from my Android. Please forgive typos. Thank you.


From: CnC-List  on behalf of Novabraid via 
CnC-List 
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 10:32:27 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: csgilchr...@comcast.net 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related


I have no firsthand experience with “virtual marks” in my racing history.  But 
one of the best features of sailboat racing is mark roundings, especially when 
competition is close and there are tactical decisions that would allow one boat 
to gain places over another.  How in the world are you going to determine a 3 
boat length circle around a “virtual mark”?  Why would anyone need room at the 
mark if there was no actual mark to either hit or avoid?

And if there’s such a reliance on the accuracy of GPS for mark roundings, why 
not take it a step further and draw a virtual line a the start that can be 
varied as the wind shifts?  Doesn’t everyone have America’s Cup grade 
electronic telemetry on their 40 year old C?

Edd, if the drop marks you discuss are so easy to move or get stolen to often, 
why not simply use government marks as race marks and set the start line 
accordingly?  Surely the RC can manage to drop a single mark to set the angle 
of a start line…

Chuck Gilchrest

S/V Half Magic

1983 35 Landfall

Padanaram, MA

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Matt Wolford via 
CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: wolf...@erie.net
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related



I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was missing.  
The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational rounding” – 
which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the race was 
abandoned.



As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees ahead of 
time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said, don’t be 
surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice.



From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf 
Of Edd Schillay via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
To: Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Edd Schillay mailto:e...@schillay.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related



Listers,



As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the 
Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting 
involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy.



One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in the 
water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut loose, 
vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run. And there is 
no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or put up an M flag 
to act as one.



Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing, which 
is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that say 
something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more than 300 
feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race committee is 
unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated latitude/longitude 
position.”



Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again, not to 
have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared.



Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice? If 
so, why?



Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s.

All the best,



Edd





Edd M. Schillay

Captain of the Starship Enterprise

C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B

Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL



Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log<http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/>














___

Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Novabraid via CnC-List]

I have no firsthand experience with “virtual marks” in my racing history.  But 
one of the best features of sailboat racing is mark roundings, especially when 
competition is close and there are tactical decisions that would allow one boat 
to gain places over another.  How in the world are you going to determine a 3 
boat length circle around a “virtual mark”?  Why would anyone need room at the 
mark if there was no actual mark to either hit or avoid?

And if there’s such a reliance on the accuracy of GPS for mark roundings, why 
not take it a step further and draw a virtual line a the start that can be 
varied as the wind shifts?  Doesn’t everyone have America’s Cup grade 
electronic telemetry on their 40 year old C?

Edd, if the drop marks you discuss are so easy to move or get stolen to often, 
why not simply use government marks as race marks and set the start line 
accordingly?  Surely the RC can manage to drop a single mark to set the angle 
of a start line…

Chuck Gilchrest

S/V Half Magic

1983 35 Landfall

Padanaram, MA

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Matt Wolford via 
CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: wolf...@erie.net
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

 

I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was missing.  
The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational rounding” – 
which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the race was 
abandoned.

 

As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees ahead of 
time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said, don’t be 
surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice. 

 

From: CnC-List mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com> > On Behalf Of Edd Schillay via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
To: Edd Schillay via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Edd Schillay mailto:e...@schillay.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

 

Listers,

 

As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the 
Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting 
involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy. 

 

One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in the 
water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut loose, 
vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run. And there is 
no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or put up an M flag 
to act as one. 

 

Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing, which 
is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that say 
something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more than 300 
feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race committee is 
unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated latitude/longitude 
position.”

 

Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again, not to 
have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared. 

 

Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice? If 
so, why? 

 

Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s. 


All the best,

 

Edd

 

 

Edd M. Schillay

Captain of the Starship Enterprise

C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B

Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL

 

 <http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log

 








 





 

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Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Matt Wolford via CnC-List]

As usual, I agree with Joe.

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Della Barba, Joe 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 06, 2020 9:41 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Della Barba, Joe 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

 

IMHO this is a bad idea.

The whole idea of how mark roundings happen in racing cannot work if the 
notional idea of where the mark is differs by even 5 or 10 feet from boat to 
boat. I would either use government marks or you all cough up enough cash to 
get an old Whaler and teenager to run around moving marks.

Joe

Coquina

 

 

From: CnC-List mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com> > On Behalf Of Matt Wolford via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: wolf...@erie.net <mailto:wolf...@erie.net> 
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

 

I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was missing.  
The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational rounding” – 
which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the race was 
abandoned.

 

As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees ahead of 
time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said, don’t be 
surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice. 

 

From: CnC-List mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com> > On Behalf Of Edd Schillay via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
To: Edd Schillay via CnC-List mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
Cc: Edd Schillay mailto:e...@schillay.com> >
Subject: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

 

Listers,

 

As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the 
Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting 
involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy. 

 

One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in the 
water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut loose, 
vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run. And there is 
no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or put up an M flag 
to act as one. 

 

Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing, which 
is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that say 
something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more than 300 
feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race committee is 
unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated latitude/longitude 
position.”

 

Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again, not to 
have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared. 

 

Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice? If 
so, why? 

 

Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s. 


All the best,

 

Edd

 

 

Edd M. Schillay

Captain of the Starship Enterprise

C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B

Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL

 

 
<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=8b8d4e0f-d71b06af-8b8d6778-0cc47adca788-2339de501a1a3902=1=2b84bce6-00f4-439c-a29c-a36df77fc2c1=http%3A%2F%2Fenterpriseb.blogspot.com%2F>
 Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log

 








 

 

 

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Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Della Barba, Joe via CnC-List]

IMHO this is a bad idea.
The whole idea of how mark roundings happen in racing cannot work if the 
notional idea of where the mark is differs by even 5 or 10 feet from boat to 
boat. I would either use government marks or you all cough up enough cash to 
get an old Whaler and teenager to run around moving marks.
Joe
Coquina


From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Matt Wolford via 
CnC-List
Sent: Friday, March 6, 2020 9:17 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: wolf...@erie.net
Subject: [EXTERNAL] Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was missing.  
The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational rounding” – 
which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the race was 
abandoned.

As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees ahead of 
time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said, don’t be 
surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice.

From: CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>> On Behalf 
Of Edd Schillay via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
To: Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
Cc: Edd Schillay mailto:e...@schillay.com>>
Subject: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

Listers,

As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the 
Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting 
involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy.

One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in the 
water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut loose, 
vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run. And there is 
no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or put up an M flag 
to act as one.

Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing, which 
is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that say 
something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more than 300 
feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race committee is 
unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated latitude/longitude 
position.”

Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again, not to 
have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared.

Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice? If 
so, why?

Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s.

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Captain of the Starship Enterprise
C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL

Starship Enterprise's Captain's 
Log<https://protect2.fireeye.com/v1/url?k=8b8d4e0f-d71b06af-8b8d6778-0cc47adca788-2339de501a1a3902=1=2b84bce6-00f4-439c-a29c-a36df77fc2c1=http%3A%2F%2Fenterpriseb.blogspot.com%2F>











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Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Matt Wolford via CnC-List]

I recall being in a race a number of years ago in which the mark was missing.  
The owner of the lead boat claimed the boat did a “navigational rounding” – 
which it may have done – but everyone was so skeptical that the race was 
abandoned.

 

As long as you have a fleet of Corinthian sailors and everyone agrees ahead of 
time, I suppose you can do whatever the fleet decides.  That said, don’t be 
surprised if you get some disgruntlement in practice. 

 

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Edd Schillay via 
CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, March 05, 2020 5:13 PM
To: Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
Cc: Edd Schillay 
Subject: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

 

Listers,

 

As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the 
Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting 
involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy. 

 

One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in the 
water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut loose, 
vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run. And there is 
no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or put up an M flag 
to act as one. 

 

Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing, which 
is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that say 
something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more than 300 
feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race committee is 
unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated latitude/longitude 
position.”

 

Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again, not to 
have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared. 

 

Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice? If 
so, why? 

 

Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s. 


All the best,

 

Edd

 

 

Edd M. Schillay

Captain of the Starship Enterprise

C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B

Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL

 

 <http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log

 








 






 

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Re: Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

In my club, it's accepted that if a mark is missing, boats make every
attempt to turn at the stated location of the mark.  We have a couple of
permanent club-maintained race marks that are well offshore (miles).  They
disappear every few years.  We usually don't know it until we discover it
during a race.  In that case, boats turn at the plotted location.

Except for dinghy races, all our marks are located at plotted and
publicized positions.

Rule 34 is fairly moot on a mark missing during a race.  Conduct for
missing marks and the location of marks should be stated in the sailing
instructions for the race/regatta.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

On Thu, Mar 5, 2020 at 4:13 PM Edd Schillay via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Listers,
>
> As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the
> Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting
> involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy.
>
> One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in
> the water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut
> loose, vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run.
> And there is no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or
> put up an M flag to act as one.
>
> Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing,
> which is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that
> say something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more
> than 300 feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race
> committee is unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated
> latitude/longitude position.”
>
> Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again,
> not to have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared.
>
> Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice?
> If so, why?
>
> Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s.
>
> All the best,
>
> Edd
>
>
> Edd M. Schillay
> Captain of the Starship Enterprise
> C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
> Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL
>
> Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
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Stus-List Racing Marks Question -- Not C Related

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

Listers,

As you all know, this past summer, I relocated my home, office and the 
Enterprise from City Island to the Suncoast of Florida — and I’m getting 
involved in the race management over here, which has been terribly lazy. 

One of the big issues we face is lack of resources. Marks are dropped in the 
water a day or two in advance of a regatta and then are either cut loose, 
vandalized or have broken free by the time a race is actually run. And there is 
no chase boat usually available to either drop a new mark or put up an M flag 
to act as one. 

Someone brought up the idea of a virtual mark in case a mark is missing, which 
is a new concept to me. I was thinking of language in the SIs that say 
something along the lines of “If a mark is missing or has moved more than 300 
feet from its stated latitude/longitude position, and the race committee is 
unable to replace it, then the mark shall be the stated latitude/longitude 
position.”

Basically, the thought is, especially since this happens now and again, not to 
have to cancel a regatta because a mark has disappeared. 

Has anyone ever used “virtual marks”? Does anyone object to the practice? If 
so, why? 

Appreciate anyone’s input. Even Risch’s. 

All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Captain of the Starship Enterprise
C 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
Venice Yacht Club | Venice Island, FL

Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log 











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Re: Stus-List Racing - RC protesting

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

In Chester Race Week one year the RC protested us on Koobalibra (C 115) as we 
finished for failing to honour the appropriate turning mark.  At the same time 
as we finished we (Koobalibra) protested the RC for not clearly identifying the 
course (3 yellow tetrahedrons for three separate courses in the same 
approximate location that was described pre-start).  Koobalibra won the protest 
and it was witnessed by none other than Rodney Johnston.  The race was thrown 
out of the series as a result.

Mike
Persistence
Halifax, NS

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Matthew L. Wolford 
via CnC-List
Sent: December 23, 2019 9:49 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Matthew L. Wolford 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing

My understanding is that an RC also has the ability to protest a violation as 
Bill states.

From: WILLIAM WALKER via CnC-List<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2019 9:12 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: WILLIAM WALKER<mailto:wwadjo...@aol.com>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing


Can't the race committee protest OBSERVED violation under RSS 60.2?
Bill Walker


On Sunday, December 22, 2019 detroito91 via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:


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Re: Stus-List Racing

[Matthew L. Wolford via CnC-List]

My understanding is that an RC also has the ability to protest a violation as 
Bill states.

From: WILLIAM WALKER via CnC-List 
Sent: Sunday, December 22, 2019 9:12 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: WILLIAM WALKER 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing

Can't the race committee protest OBSERVED violation under RSS 60.2?
Bill Walker







On Sunday, December 22, 2019 detroito91 via CnC-List  
wrote:




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Re: Stus-List Racing

[WILLIAM WALKER via CnC-List]

Can't the race committee protest OBSERVED violation under RSS 60.2?
Bill Walker

On Sunday, December 22, 2019 detroito91 via CnC-List  
wrote:
Race Committee cannot protest if they see something wrong.  Only observe.Jim 
Schwartz SEA YA !38 Landfall Washington nc 


Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy smartphone

 Original message From: "Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List" 
 Date: 12/22/19 4:00 PM (GMT-05:00) To: 
"'cnc-list@cnc-list.com'"  Cc: "Hoyt, Mike" 
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing 

I believe the committee boat could have protested.
 
  
 
In any event the protestee should have done turns or retired once the protestor 
announced protest regardless if it was a flag or a hat
 
  
 
Mike
 
Persistence
 
Halifax, ns
 
  
 
From: CnC-List On Behalf Of Shawn Wright via 
CnC-List
Sent: December 22, 2019 3:06 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Shawn Wright 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing
 
  
 
Very true about the protest flag. Recently our crew was the Race Committee boat 
for club racing, and we witnessed a pretty severe rule violation at the start 
line, but the violated boat didn't have a protest flag, and tried to use a hat 
on the back stay instead. They knew it wouldn't be allowed so didn't file a 
protest (although I think the offending boat may have later taken a penalty 
turn as a precaution). I was surprised since these are all very experienced 
sailors, but I suppose it was just a Sunday club race. Presumably they would be 
better prepared in a more serious race, but maybe not. There are a few skippers 
who are very aware of the rules, and also a bit aggressive, and use this to 
their advantage to intimidate other boats, knowing that many will back down 
even if they don't have to. 
 


 
--
 
Shawn Wright
 
shawngwri...@gmail.com
 
S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35
 
https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto
 
  
 
  
 
On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 3:06 AM dwight veinot via CnC-List 
 wrote:
 

Racing sailboats inevitably leads to collisions between boats and lots of close 
calls. Collisions are not fun. Protest hearings are not fun and often not done 
for non- collision encounters where rules may have been violated therefore. 
Sailboat racing has a huge volume of rules which very few sailors know and know 
how to apply in close quarter encounters. Without protests and protest hearings 
racing can be a farce. But in my experience protests and hearings were scarce 
and some boats do not even carry a protest flag or if they do the crew does not 
know where to find it when it could reasonably be used. 
 
  
 
On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 10:21 PM Robert Abbott via CnC-List 
 wrote:
 

RacingI don't do it anymore.   But when I raced, I raced mostly with
a core of 5 good friends, one my brother.

I learned a lot over many years, on different boats, doing different 
jobs, full crew and short crew days, in all kinds of conditions. Over 
the years racing, I have spent some time on the foredeck... no one else 
wanted do it.   Some days I thought that was a good thing, some days it 
was not so greata sail change down in a heavy building breeze 
bouncing around up front in the spray...yea, this is fun.

Now doing a spinnaker peel right felt really good.especially in the 
middle of the fleet where everyone gets to see it done, and done 
smoothly.  Head sails changes are done regularly but changing a 
spinnaker under sail could only be done smoothly if you had practiced 
it.  We had some good races and we had some bad races. And we spent time 
practicing.    We practiced to the point where, for example, where I 
could put my hand on a halyard and the pit man knew exactly what halyard 
and what to do with it without me shouting me back a command.

After a race, the beers were open for the passage home.  After the boat 
was docked. sails packed, etc. the first half hour was spent talking 
about the racewhat did we do wrong, what went right. After that we 
normally got juvenile.

In 1995, I wanted something different from racingbought a Kirby 25 
that we raced against as our main boat for boat competitor, the J24 
fleet with 4 of the 5 original amigosme and 3 of the amigos left my 
friend's C 34R to race the K25...racing is totally different when 
you are on the helm and not on the foredeck when you get to a mark and 
there are 15 other boats there compared to normal handicap racing where 
twenty minutes after the start the fleet spreads out.

No matter how you choose to race, it helps a lot if the crew can size up 
the competition, decide where they expect to place in their respective 
fleetbottom 3rd, middle 3rd, or top 3rd.  If you can get the crew to 
talk about this and agree, saves a lot of different expectations among crew.

Racing is 50% boat, 50% crew and 50% luck on any given day.  I have had 
the good fortune to have benefited from all three, and in a few races, 
all three!

Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 #277
Halifax, N.S.


__

Re: Stus-List Racing

[detroito91 via CnC-List]

Race Committee cannot protest if they see something wrong.  Only observe.Jim 
Schwartz SEA YA !38 Landfall Washington nc Sent from my Verizon, Samsung Galaxy 
smartphone
 Original message From: "Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List" 
 Date: 12/22/19  4:00 PM  (GMT-05:00) To: 
"'cnc-list@cnc-list.com'"  Cc: "Hoyt, Mike" 
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing 

I believe the committee boat could have protested.
 
In any event the protestee should have done turns or retired once the protestor 
announced protest regardless if it was a flag or a hat
 
Mike
Persistence
Halifax, ns
 
From: CnC-List 
On Behalf Of Shawn Wright via CnC-List
Sent: December 22, 2019 3:06 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Shawn Wright 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing
 

Very true about the protest flag. Recently our crew was the Race Committee boat 
for club racing, and we witnessed a pretty severe rule violation at the start 
line, but the violated boat didn't have a protest flag, and tried to use a hat
 on the back stay instead. They knew it wouldn't be allowed so didn't file a 
protest (although I think the offending boat may have later taken a penalty 
turn as a precaution). I was surprised since these are all very experienced 
sailors, but I suppose it was
 just a Sunday club race. Presumably they would be better prepared in a more 
serious race, but maybe not. There are a few skippers who are very aware of the 
rules, and also a bit aggressive, and use this to their advantage to intimidate 
other boats, knowing
 that many will back down even if they don't have to. 








--


Shawn Wright


shawngwri...@gmail.com


S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35


https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto





 


 


On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 3:06 AM dwight veinot via CnC-List 
 wrote:




Racing sailboats inevitably leads to collisions between boats and lots of close 
calls. Collisions are not fun. Protest hearings are not fun and often not done 
for non- collision encounters where rules may have been violated therefore. 
Sailboat
 racing has a huge volume of rules which very few sailors know and know how to 
apply in close quarter encounters. Without protests and protest hearings racing 
can be a farce. But in my experience protests and hearings were scarce and some 
boats do not even
 carry a protest flag or if they do the crew does not know where to find it 
when it could reasonably be used. 



 


On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 10:21 PM Robert Abbott via CnC-List 
 wrote:


RacingI don't do it anymore.   But when I raced, I raced mostly with

a core of 5 good friends, one my brother.

I learned a lot over many years, on different boats, doing different 
jobs, full crew and short crew days, in all kinds of conditions. Over 
the years racing, I have spent some time on the foredeck... no one else 
wanted do it.   Some days I thought that was a good thing, some days it 
was not so greata sail change down in a heavy building breeze 
bouncing around up front in the spray...yea, this is fun.

Now doing a spinnaker peel right felt really good.especially in the 
middle of the fleet where everyone gets to see it done, and done 
smoothly.  Head sails changes are done regularly but changing a 
spinnaker under sail could only be done smoothly if you had practiced 
it.  We had some good races and we had some bad races. And we spent time 
practicing.    We practiced to the point where, for example, where I 
could put my hand on a halyard and the pit man knew exactly what halyard 
and what to do with it without me shouting me back a command.

After a race, the beers were open for the passage home.  After the boat 
was docked. sails packed, etc. the first half hour was spent talking 
about the racewhat did we do wrong, what went right. After that we 
normally got juvenile.

In 1995, I wanted something different from racingbought a Kirby 25 
that we raced against as our main boat for boat competitor, the J24 
fleet with 4 of the 5 original amigosme and 3 of the amigos left my 
friend's C 34R to race the K25...racing is totally different when 
you are on the helm and not on the foredeck when you get to a mark and 
there are 15 other boats there compared to normal handicap racing where 
twenty minutes after the start the fleet spreads out.

No matter how you choose to race, it helps a lot if the crew can size up 
the competition, decide where they expect to place in their respective 
fleetbottom 3rd, middle 3rd, or top 3rd.  If you can get the crew to 
talk about this and agree, saves a lot of different expectations among crew.

Racing is 50% boat, 50% crew and 50% luck on any given day.  I have had 
the good fortune to have benefited from all three, and in a few races, 
all three!

Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 #277
Halifax, N.S.


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Re: Stus-List Racing

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

I believe the committee boat could have protested.

In any event the protestee should have done turns or retired once the protestor 
announced protest regardless if it was a flag or a hat

Mike
Persistence
Halifax, ns

From: CnC-List  On Behalf Of Shawn Wright via 
CnC-List
Sent: December 22, 2019 3:06 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Shawn Wright 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing

Very true about the protest flag. Recently our crew was the Race Committee boat 
for club racing, and we witnessed a pretty severe rule violation at the start 
line, but the violated boat didn't have a protest flag, and tried to use a hat 
on the back stay instead. They knew it wouldn't be allowed so didn't file a 
protest (although I think the offending boat may have later taken a penalty 
turn as a precaution). I was surprised since these are all very experienced 
sailors, but I suppose it was just a Sunday club race. Presumably they would be 
better prepared in a more serious race, but maybe not. There are a few skippers 
who are very aware of the rules, and also a bit aggressive, and use this to 
their advantage to intimidate other boats, knowing that many will back down 
even if they don't have to.

--
Shawn Wright
shawngwri...@gmail.com<mailto:shawngwri...@gmail.com>
S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35
https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto


On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 3:06 AM dwight veinot via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
Racing sailboats inevitably leads to collisions between boats and lots of close 
calls. Collisions are not fun. Protest hearings are not fun and often not done 
for non- collision encounters where rules may have been violated therefore. 
Sailboat racing has a huge volume of rules which very few sailors know and know 
how to apply in close quarter encounters. Without protests and protest hearings 
racing can be a farce. But in my experience protests and hearings were scarce 
and some boats do not even carry a protest flag or if they do the crew does not 
know where to find it when it could reasonably be used.

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 10:21 PM Robert Abbott via CnC-List 
mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
RacingI don't do it anymore.   But when I raced, I raced mostly with
a core of 5 good friends, one my brother.

I learned a lot over many years, on different boats, doing different
jobs, full crew and short crew days, in all kinds of conditions. Over
the years racing, I have spent some time on the foredeck... no one else
wanted do it.   Some days I thought that was a good thing, some days it
was not so greata sail change down in a heavy building breeze
bouncing around up front in the spray...yea, this is fun.

Now doing a spinnaker peel right felt really good.especially in the
middle of the fleet where everyone gets to see it done, and done
smoothly.  Head sails changes are done regularly but changing a
spinnaker under sail could only be done smoothly if you had practiced
it.  We had some good races and we had some bad races. And we spent time
practicing.We practiced to the point where, for example, where I
could put my hand on a halyard and the pit man knew exactly what halyard
and what to do with it without me shouting me back a command.

After a race, the beers were open for the passage home.  After the boat
was docked. sails packed, etc. the first half hour was spent talking
about the racewhat did we do wrong, what went right. After that we
normally got juvenile.

In 1995, I wanted something different from racingbought a Kirby 25
that we raced against as our main boat for boat competitor, the J24
fleet with 4 of the 5 original amigosme and 3 of the amigos left my
friend's C 34R to race the K25...racing is totally different when
you are on the helm and not on the foredeck when you get to a mark and
there are 15 other boats there compared to normal handicap racing where
twenty minutes after the start the fleet spreads out.

No matter how you choose to race, it helps a lot if the crew can size up
the competition, decide where they expect to place in their respective
fleetbottom 3rd, middle 3rd, or top 3rd.  If you can get the crew to
talk about this and agree, saves a lot of different expectations among crew.

Racing is 50% boat, 50% crew and 50% luck on any given day.  I have had
the good fortune to have benefited from all three, and in a few races,
all three!

Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 #277
Halifax, N.S.


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--
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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Re: Stus-List Racing

[Shawn Wright via CnC-List]

Very true about the protest flag. Recently our crew was the Race Committee
boat for club racing, and we witnessed a pretty severe rule violation at
the start line, but the violated boat didn't have a protest flag, and tried
to use a hat on the back stay instead. They knew it wouldn't be allowed so
didn't file a protest (although I think the offending boat may have later
taken a penalty turn as a precaution). I was surprised since these are all
very experienced sailors, but I suppose it was just a Sunday club race.
Presumably they would be better prepared in a more serious race, but
maybe not. There are a few skippers who are very aware of the rules, and
also a bit aggressive, and use this to their advantage to intimidate other
boats, knowing that many will back down even if they don't have to.

--
Shawn Wright
shawngwri...@gmail.com
S/V Callisto, 1974 C 35
https://www.facebook.com/SVCallisto


On Sun, Dec 22, 2019 at 3:06 AM dwight veinot via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Racing sailboats inevitably leads to collisions between boats and lots of
> close calls. Collisions are not fun. Protest hearings are not fun and often
> not done for non- collision encounters where rules may have been violated
> therefore. Sailboat racing has a huge volume of rules which very few
> sailors know and know how to apply in close quarter encounters. Without
> protests and protest hearings racing can be a farce. But in my experience
> protests and hearings were scarce and some boats do not even carry a
> protest flag or if they do the crew does not know where to find it when it
> could reasonably be used.
>
> On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 10:21 PM Robert Abbott via CnC-List <
> cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:
>
>> RacingI don't do it anymore.   But when I raced, I raced mostly with
>> a core of 5 good friends, one my brother.
>>
>> I learned a lot over many years, on different boats, doing different
>> jobs, full crew and short crew days, in all kinds of conditions. Over
>> the years racing, I have spent some time on the foredeck... no one else
>> wanted do it.   Some days I thought that was a good thing, some days it
>> was not so greata sail change down in a heavy building breeze
>> bouncing around up front in the spray...yea, this is fun.
>>
>> Now doing a spinnaker peel right felt really good.especially in the
>> middle of the fleet where everyone gets to see it done, and done
>> smoothly.  Head sails changes are done regularly but changing a
>> spinnaker under sail could only be done smoothly if you had practiced
>> it.  We had some good races and we had some bad races. And we spent time
>> practicing.We practiced to the point where, for example, where I
>> could put my hand on a halyard and the pit man knew exactly what halyard
>> and what to do with it without me shouting me back a command.
>>
>> After a race, the beers were open for the passage home.  After the boat
>> was docked. sails packed, etc. the first half hour was spent talking
>> about the racewhat did we do wrong, what went right. After that we
>> normally got juvenile.
>>
>> In 1995, I wanted something different from racingbought a Kirby 25
>> that we raced against as our main boat for boat competitor, the J24
>> fleet with 4 of the 5 original amigosme and 3 of the amigos left my
>> friend's C 34R to race the K25...racing is totally different when
>> you are on the helm and not on the foredeck when you get to a mark and
>> there are 15 other boats there compared to normal handicap racing where
>> twenty minutes after the start the fleet spreads out.
>>
>> No matter how you choose to race, it helps a lot if the crew can size up
>> the competition, decide where they expect to place in their respective
>> fleetbottom 3rd, middle 3rd, or top 3rd.  If you can get the crew to
>> talk about this and agree, saves a lot of different expectations among
>> crew.
>>
>> Racing is 50% boat, 50% crew and 50% luck on any given day.  I have had
>> the good fortune to have benefited from all three, and in a few races,
>> all three!
>>
>> Robert Abbott
>> AZURA
>> C 32 #277
>> Halifax, N.S.
>>
>>
>> ___
>>
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
>> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
>> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>
>> --
> Sent from Gmail Mobile
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
>
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Re: Stus-List Racing

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Racing sailboats inevitably leads to collisions between boats and lots of
close calls. Collisions are not fun. Protest hearings are not fun and often
not done for non- collision encounters where rules may have been violated
therefore. Sailboat racing has a huge volume of rules which very few
sailors know and know how to apply in close quarter encounters. Without
protests and protest hearings racing can be a farce. But in my experience
protests and hearings were scarce and some boats do not even carry a
protest flag or if they do the crew does not know where to find it when it
could reasonably be used.

On Thu, Dec 19, 2019 at 10:21 PM Robert Abbott via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> RacingI don't do it anymore.   But when I raced, I raced mostly with
> a core of 5 good friends, one my brother.
>
> I learned a lot over many years, on different boats, doing different
> jobs, full crew and short crew days, in all kinds of conditions. Over
> the years racing, I have spent some time on the foredeck... no one else
> wanted do it.   Some days I thought that was a good thing, some days it
> was not so greata sail change down in a heavy building breeze
> bouncing around up front in the spray...yea, this is fun.
>
> Now doing a spinnaker peel right felt really good.especially in the
> middle of the fleet where everyone gets to see it done, and done
> smoothly.  Head sails changes are done regularly but changing a
> spinnaker under sail could only be done smoothly if you had practiced
> it.  We had some good races and we had some bad races. And we spent time
> practicing.We practiced to the point where, for example, where I
> could put my hand on a halyard and the pit man knew exactly what halyard
> and what to do with it without me shouting me back a command.
>
> After a race, the beers were open for the passage home.  After the boat
> was docked. sails packed, etc. the first half hour was spent talking
> about the racewhat did we do wrong, what went right. After that we
> normally got juvenile.
>
> In 1995, I wanted something different from racingbought a Kirby 25
> that we raced against as our main boat for boat competitor, the J24
> fleet with 4 of the 5 original amigosme and 3 of the amigos left my
> friend's C 34R to race the K25...racing is totally different when
> you are on the helm and not on the foredeck when you get to a mark and
> there are 15 other boats there compared to normal handicap racing where
> twenty minutes after the start the fleet spreads out.
>
> No matter how you choose to race, it helps a lot if the crew can size up
> the competition, decide where they expect to place in their respective
> fleetbottom 3rd, middle 3rd, or top 3rd.  If you can get the crew to
> talk about this and agree, saves a lot of different expectations among
> crew.
>
> Racing is 50% boat, 50% crew and 50% luck on any given day.  I have had
> the good fortune to have benefited from all three, and in a few races,
> all three!
>
> Robert Abbott
> AZURA
> C 32 #277
> Halifax, N.S.
>
>
> ___
>
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each
> and every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list -
> use PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>
> --
Sent from Gmail Mobile
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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Stus-List Racing

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

RacingI don't do it anymore.   But when I raced, I raced mostly with 
a core of 5 good friends, one my brother.


I learned a lot over many years, on different boats, doing different 
jobs, full crew and short crew days, in all kinds of conditions. Over 
the years racing, I have spent some time on the foredeck... no one else 
wanted do it.   Some days I thought that was a good thing, some days it 
was not so greata sail change down in a heavy building breeze 
bouncing around up front in the spray...yea, this is fun.


Now doing a spinnaker peel right felt really good.especially in the 
middle of the fleet where everyone gets to see it done, and done 
smoothly.  Head sails changes are done regularly but changing a 
spinnaker under sail could only be done smoothly if you had practiced 
it.  We had some good races and we had some bad races. And we spent time 
practicing.    We practiced to the point where, for example, where I 
could put my hand on a halyard and the pit man knew exactly what halyard 
and what to do with it without me shouting me back a command.


After a race, the beers were open for the passage home.  After the boat 
was docked. sails packed, etc. the first half hour was spent talking 
about the racewhat did we do wrong, what went right. After that we 
normally got juvenile.


In 1995, I wanted something different from racingbought a Kirby 25 
that we raced against as our main boat for boat competitor, the J24 
fleet with 4 of the 5 original amigosme and 3 of the amigos left my 
friend's C 34R to race the K25...racing is totally different when 
you are on the helm and not on the foredeck when you get to a mark and 
there are 15 other boats there compared to normal handicap racing where 
twenty minutes after the start the fleet spreads out.


No matter how you choose to race, it helps a lot if the crew can size up 
the competition, decide where they expect to place in their respective 
fleetbottom 3rd, middle 3rd, or top 3rd.  If you can get the crew to 
talk about this and agree, saves a lot of different expectations among crew.


Racing is 50% boat, 50% crew and 50% luck on any given day.  I have had 
the good fortune to have benefited from all three, and in a few races, 
all three!


Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 #277
Halifax, N.S.


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Stus-List Racing

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

RacingI don't do it anymoremaybe 3 times in the last 13 years on 
someone else's boat.   But when I raced, I raced mostly with a core of 5 
good friends, one my brother.


When I started racing I really didn't know very much about all that was 
involvedthought I didI still don't know all there is to know but 
I learned a lot over many years, on different boats, doing different 
jobs, full crew and short crew days, in all kinds of conditions.  Over 
the years, I have spent some time on the foredecknot that I wanted 
to but because no one else would or could do it.   Some days I thought 
that was a good thing, some days it was not so greata sail change 
down in a heavy building breeze bouncing around up front in the 
spray...yea, this is fun.


Now doing a spinnaker peel right felt really good.especially in the 
middle of the fleet where everyone gets to see it done, and done 
smoothly.  Head sails changes are done regularly but changing a 
spinnaker under sail could only be done smoothly if you had practiced 
it.  We had some good races and we had some bad races. And we spent time 
practicing.    We practiced to the point where, for example, where I 
could put my hand on a halyard and the pit man knew exactly what halyard 
and what to do with it without me shouting me back a command.


After a race, the beers were open for the passage home.  After the boat 
was docked. sails packed, etc. the first half hour was spent talking 
about the racewhat did we do wrong, what went right. After that we 
normally got juvenile.


In 1995, I wanted something different from racing, more boat to boat 
racing and I wanted to be in the cockpit and on the helmbought a 
Kirby 25 that we raced against as our main boat for boat competitor, the 
J24 fleet with the 4 of the 5 original amigosme and 3 of the amigos 
left my friend's C 34R to race the K25...racing is totally 
different when you get to a mark and there are 15 other boats there 
compared to normal handicap racing where tenty minutes after the start 
the fleet spreads out.


No matter how you choose to race, it helps a lot when the crew decides 
where they expect to place in their respective fleetbottom 3rd, 
middle 3rd, or top 3rd.  If you can get the crew to talk about this and 
agree, bid help.


Racing is 50% boat, 50% crew and 50% luck on any given day.  I have had 
the good fortune to have had all three, and in a few races, all three!


Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 #277
Halifax, N.S.




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every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Stus-List Racing

[Robert Abbott via CnC-List]

RacingI don't do it anymoremaybe 3 times in the last 13 years on 
someone else's boat.   But when I raced, I raced mostly with a core of 5 
good friends, one my brother.


When I started racing I really didn't know very much about all that was 
involvedthought I didI still don't know all there is to know but 
I learned a lot over many years, on different boats, doing different 
jobs, full crew and short crew days, in all kinds of conditions.  Over 
the years, I have spent some time on the foredecknot that I wanted 
to but because no one else would or could do it.   Some days I thought 
that was a good thing, some days it was not so greata sail change 
down in a heavy building breeze bouncing around up front in the 
spray...yea, this is fun.


Now doing a spinnaker peel right felt really good.especially in the 
middle of the fleet where everyone gets to see it done, and done 
smoothly.  Head sails changes are done regularly but changing a 
spinnaker under sail could only be done smoothly if you had practiced 
it.  We had some good races and we had some bad races. And we spent time 
practicing.    We practiced to the point where, for example, where I 
could put my hand on a halyard and the pit man knew exactly what halyard 
and what to do with it without me shouting me back a command.


After a race, the beers were open for the passage home.  After the boat 
was docked. sails packed, etc. the first half hour was spent talking 
about the racewhat did we do wrong, what went right. After that we 
normally got juvenile.


In 1995, I wanted something different from racing, more boat to boat 
racing and I wanted to be in the cockpit and on the helmbought a 
Kirby 25 that we raced against as our main boat for boat competitor, the 
J24 fleet with the 4 of the 5 original amigosme and 3 of the amigos 
left my friend's C 34R to race the K25...racing is totally 
different when you get to a mark and there are 15 other boats there 
compared to normal handicap racing where tenty minutes after the start 
the fleet spreads out.


No matter how you choose to race, it helps a lot when the crew decides 
where they expect to place in their respective fleetbottom 3rd, 
middle 3rd, or top 3rd.  If you can get the crew to talk about this and 
agree, bid help.


Racing is 50% boat, 50% crew and 50% luck on any given day.  I have had 
the good fortune to have had all three, and in a few races, all three!


Robert Abbott
AZURA
C 32 #277
Halifax, N.S.



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Re: Stus-List Racing and Cruising sails for sale

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

Dimensions on the ad anything not there that you need?

Rod

Sent from my iPhone

> On Aug 26, 2018, at 11:51 AM, Don Kern via CnC-List  
> wrote:
> 
> Rod
> 
> Very interested in racing sails.  Just blew out two older heavy air sails.  
> Can you provide the sail dimensions
> Don Kern
> Fireball 12708
> C 35MK2 
> 
>> On 8/26/2018 9:42 AM, Rod Stright via CnC-List wrote:
>> A variety of racing and cruising sails that will fit C 33 – 35’ sailboats
>>  
>> 1. Doyle cruising laminate blade in good condition  Luff 43’11”, Foot 
>> 13’ 8”, Leech 40’ 5” $500 usd
>> 2. Doyle dacron mainsail in good conditions with slugs Luff 39.5’ Foot 
>> 12’10” $800 usd
>> 3. Doyle racing blade new/unused $2000 usd obo cost $4000 Luff 44.7’. 
>> Foot 13.62’, Leech 42.7’
>> 4. Evolution racing genoa Luff 44’ 8”, Foot 20.5’ Leech 43’ 6” $1200 usd
>> 5. One racing North symmetrical spinnaker good condition.  Will fit 
>> boats with an I of 46’ and a J of 13.5’$650 usd obo
>> 6. One reaching sail $300 usd.
>>  
>> Photos of most available on request.  Email strig...@eastlink.ca for more 
>> information.
>>  
>> Rod Stright
>> C 99 2004 
>>  
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>>  
>>  
>> 
>>  Virus-free. www.avast.com
>> 
>> 
>> ___
>> 
>> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
>> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
>> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
>> 
> 
> ___
> 
> Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
> every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use 
> PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
> 
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Re: Stus-List Racing and Cruising sails for sale

[Don Kern via CnC-List]

Rod

Very interested in racing sails.  Just blew out two older heavy air 
sails.  Can you provide the sail dimensions


Don Kern
Fireball 12708
C 35MK2

On 8/26/2018 9:42 AM, Rod Stright via CnC-List wrote:
A variety of racing and cruising sails that will fit C 33 – 35’ 
sailboats
1.Doyle cruising laminate blade in good condition  Luff 43’11”, Foot 
13’ 8”, Leech 40’ 5” $500 usd
2.Doyle dacron mainsail in good conditions with slugs Luff 39.5’ Foot 
12’10” $800 usd
3.Doyle racing blade new/unused $2000 usd obo cost $4000 Luff 44.7’. 
Foot 13.62’, Leech 42.7’

4.Evolution racing genoa Luff 44’ 8”, Foot 20.5’ Leech 43’ 6” $1200 usd
5.One racing North symmetrical spinnaker good condition.  Will fit 
boats with an I of 46’ and a J of 13.5’$650 usd obo

6.One reaching sail $300 usd.
Photos of most available on request.  Email strig...@eastlink.ca 
 for more information.

Rod Stright
C 99 2004
Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use PayPal 
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Stus-List Racing and Cruising sails for sale

[Rod Stright via CnC-List]

A variety of racing and cruising sails that will fit C 33 - 35' sailboats
 
1. Doyle cruising laminate blade in good condition  Luff 43'11", Foot
13' 8", Leech 40' 5" $500 usd
2. Doyle dacron mainsail in good conditions with slugs Luff 39.5' Foot
12'10" $800 usd
3. Doyle racing blade new/unused $2000 usd obo cost $4000 Luff 44.7'.
Foot 13.62', Leech 42.7'
4. Evolution racing genoa Luff 44' 8", Foot 20.5' Leech 43' 6" $1200 usd
5. One racing North symmetrical spinnaker good condition.  Will fit
boats with an I of 46' and a J of 13.5'$650 usd obo
6. One reaching sail $300 usd.
 
Photos of most available on request.  Email strig...@eastlink.ca
  for more information.
 
Rod Stright
C 99 2004 
 
Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and
every one is greatly appreciated.  If you want to support the list - use
PayPal to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray
 

 



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Thanks everyone for supporting this list with your contributions.  Each and 
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to send contribution --   https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

Stus-List Racing sails from 1974 35' MKII for sale

[Kevin Benoit via CnC-List]

 Hey guys, I recently bought my boat (1974 35' MKII) and it came with some
racing sails that I am not going to need and I thought someone may have a
use for them.  Pic gallery is here: SAILS .
I'm also listing them on ebay.  Prices are somewhat flexible and do not
include shipping.

Carbon Fiber Genoa made by Omar Sails in Beaufort, NC.
Nearly new condition.
Leach: 44'3"
Luff: 45'
Foot: 23'5"
L/P: 22'10.5"
$1800

Kevlar Genoa also made by Omar Sails
Good Condition
Leach: 40'10"
Luff: 44'3"
Foot: 14'2"
L/P: 13'
$700

Please let me know if you have any questions.  I'll donate 2% of any
proceeds to the list.

Kevin Benoit
S/V Guru
1974 C 35 MKII
Baton Rouge, LA
225-205-2373
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Re: Stus-List racing a C 24 (Doug Ellmore

[Dave S via CnC-List]

> "The C 24 came with a little 2 burner Coleman style propane stove. I
> don't plan to cook much on her.  But, I would like a good approach to heat
> water for freezer bag food and beverages"
>
>


> Keep the coleman stove, and use it on the dock or in the cockpit if you
> are cooking.  Can use it below if needed.   We had a propane coleman stove
> in our 22' boat years ago, we cruised a lot, and this was a great approach,
> particularly because it was designed to be used in a breeze (lid,
> windguards) .  We had a portable BBQ also, and used both a small refillable
> tank and disposable cylinders when needed  For a small boat with out
> sniffers, solenoids, etc, this was a great and safe application of the KISS
> principle.   (also, you really don't need the cooking heat, grease and
> humidity below decks in a boat that size on a rainy humid day... dock or
> picnic table is better.)  Writing this, it occurs to me that a
> naptha-fuelled coleman stove might be even better for this use.
>
> Get two really good stainless steel vacuum bottles (thermoses) for hot
> water.   I built a rack in Windstar (C 33-2) for two identical Nissan
> bottles, and these things are great.  (not all are equal and you'd be
> amazed how much better some are than others, despite appearing to be very
> similar.) They keep the water scalding hot for over 24hrs, and using two
> has obvious advantages.  MUCH safer than managing a kettle or stove under
> way, and my kids can safely make instant noodles while bashing to windward.
>
> Keep a small, light electric kettle aboard.   This is to fill the
> thermoses pre-departure with a minimum of fuss, but also a simple way
> prepare instant food without firing up the stove, as well as for boiling
> water for dishwashing etc ashore should you wish.
>
> Check out the Aeropress for coffee. ;-)  I also use a French press, and
> one of my two thermoses is usually used for coffee.
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
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Re: Stus-List racing a C 24

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

Get one of those little stoves that restaurants use for heating things at the 
table. I am afraid you may be disappointed with the Corinthians. I have heard 
that most of them have big fast cruisers….. I am staying with PHRF just 
because. I’ll check after the Annapolis to St. Michaels race and see how it 
works out.

 

Gary

30-1, St. Michaels

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Doug Ellmore 
via CnC-List
Sent: Friday, April 14, 2017 12:16 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Doug Ellmore <d...@ellmore.net>
Subject: Stus-List racing a C 24

 

I am making adjustments to my C 24 to optimize for racing.

Chesapeake PHRF rules states for the for the Corinthian class:

"All normally installed equipment including doors, tables, stoves, head 
equipment, floorboards, cushions, etc. must be carried in their normal position 
while sailing"

I remove the older non-working head yesterday and put in place a 2.5 gal 
portable head.  I closed and capped the through hulls, too.  I can add water to 
the head from the bay when we need to flush.


The C 24 came with a little 2 burner Coleman style propane stove. I don't 
plan to cook much on her.  But, I would like a good approach to heat water for 
freezer bag food and beverages.

I have pulled out the cushions, but plan to put in a lighter approach for 
overnight racing.  Either a freshly made lighter weight 1/4" plywood platform 
that can be used with an air matress or experiment with a rigging two hammocks 
for night watch bunks.  I figure one end of the hammock could be supported by 
the internal mast.

Any suggestions on stove or rigging hammocks?


-- 

Doug Ellmore, Sr.

s/v Red Sky, 1976 C 24

d...@ellmore.net <mailto:d...@ellmore.net> 

 

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make a contribution to offset our costs, please go to:  
https://www.paypal.me/stumurray

All Contributions are greatly appreciated!

Stus-List racing a C 24

[Doug Ellmore via CnC-List]

I am making adjustments to my C 24 to optimize for racing.

Chesapeake PHRF rules states for the for the Corinthian class:

"All normally installed equipment including doors, tables, stoves, head
equipment, floorboards, cushions, etc. must be carried in their normal
position while sailing"

I remove the older non-working head yesterday and put in place a 2.5 gal
portable head.  I closed and capped the through hulls, too.  I can add
water to the head from the bay when we need to flush.

The C 24 came with a little 2 burner Coleman style propane stove. I don't
plan to cook much on her.  But, I would like a good approach to heat water
for freezer bag food and beverages.

I have pulled out the cushions, but plan to put in a lighter approach for
overnight racing.  Either a freshly made lighter weight 1/4" plywood
platform that can be used with an air matress or experiment with a rigging
two hammocks for night watch bunks.  I figure one end of the hammock could
be supported by the internal mast.

Any suggestions on stove or rigging hammocks?

-- 
Doug Ellmore, Sr.
s/v Red Sky, 1976 C 24
d...@ellmore.net
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Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

[RANDY via CnC-List]

"That boat loves it when the wind pipes up" 

You were so right, Mike. Raced in 25 kt. gusts again tonight for the second 
time in two weeks, and won for the second time in two weeks. Carried full main 
and 155% genoa with six bodies on the rail and couldn't get a rail in the water 
or induce a round-up or feel excessive weather helm. Gapped the fleet from the 
start and beat the next boat by at least a minute. 

She does love the stronger wind. 

Cheers, 
Randy Stafford 
S/V Grenadine 
C 30-1 #7 
Ken Caryl, CO 

- Original Message -

From: "Mike via CnC-List Hoyt" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: "cnc-list" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Mike Hoyt" <mike.h...@impgroup.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 6:20:58 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1 



If gusty and triangles and boats are “trying to stay in control or reduce 
weather helm” then bodies on the rail will keep you powered up and fast. 
Otherwise you will need a main trimmer to work very closely with helm to keep 
you on your feet 



If you JAM is triangles and everyone is at hull speed then you do not really 
require to be in spin class since there are no DDW legs and the 30 with a large 
genoa should always be moving. 



That boat loves it when the wind pipes up. Put some bodies on board and on the 
rail and do not reef too early and you will kick but on triangle JAM courses. 
Once you get bored of that and when you have 6 persons then try switching to WL 
with the spin 



Mike 




From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 1:49 AM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net 
Subject: Stus-List Racing a 30-1 





Hi All, 





I'd welcome any opinions you might like to share on racing a 30-1. As mentioned 
in the other thread on handicapping JAM boats, I have a choice of racing my 
(new to me) 30-1 in a spinnaker boat division or a non-spinnaker boat division 
(my boat is rigged for spinnaker). We have ten-week series in my club, and I'd 
have to stay in one division for a whole series (but could switch divisions 
between series). We also have occasional one and two-day weekend races in which 
I'd have to choose a division. 





>From what I see in 
>http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Offshore/PHRF/2014%20PHRF%20Handicaps%20Data.pdf
> , it looks like a 30-1 usually gets a PHRF rating of 174, which would be the 
>third-lowest rating in my club. We've got a Capri-25 at 173, and an F-240s at 
>170. 





One of my questions is how many crew are advisable for racing a 30-1, with 
spinnaker or without. On smaller boats (Capri-22s, J/22s, Merit 25s) we'd race 
and fly spinnaker with three crew - helm, trimmer, and foredeck. A fourth could 
come in handy in heavy air. I've gotten a couple indications that I should have 
maybe twice that number for a 30-1. What are the typical crew positions on a 
30-1? If it makes any difference, my spinnakers have dousing socks. 





I race on a lake in Colorado. The spinnaker division courses are upwind / 
downwind, and the non-spinnaker division courses are triangles. We generally 
try to set courses so that races last 60-90 minutes. Weather-wise we have 
varied conditions from night to night. Some nights are frickin' gusty, with 
Colorado afternoon and evening thunderstorms. Some nights are light air and we 
run out of beer before finishing :) Several times a year we get really good 
conditions - a steady 15-20 kt. breeze in which everyone's at hull speed and 
and trying to stay in control and / or reduce weather helm. Sea state is not 
really an issue, except for some powerboat wake and chop. 





If there were more light-air nights in a series than heavy-air nights, would a 
30-1 perform better against its PRHF on a triangle course, or on an upwind / 
downwind course? How many crew (some experienced, some not, all still 
reasonably agile) are needed to handle a 30-1 safely under spinnaker in gusty 
or heavy-air conditions? 





Thanks in advance for any opinions. 





Best Regards, 


Randy Stafford 


S/V Grenadine 


C 30 MK1 #7 


Ken Caryl, CO 

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Stus-List racing other people's boats

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Dennis

I read your comments and just started nodding my head and almost laughed out 
loud (about the breaking stuff)

It is in fact much cheaper to break stuff on other people’s boats than on your 
own!  Last year we had a spinnaker snafu on Koobalibra (C) that cost Dave 
$800.  On Persistence we broke the wheel pilot ring (well placed foot), a genoa 
car blew up and I think that was just about it.  Total for all the bits to put 
my stuff back together was under $250

We in fact have a hybrid program where we race most of the year and big 
regattas on Koobalibra and early season, fun weekend races and fall races are 
aboard Persistence.  We never race both boats in the same event.  Keeps the 
wear and tear down on Persistence while still keeping her tuned up.  A lot of 
the same crew on both boats.  On Koobalibra I do main trim.  On Persistence I 
have done main, genoa and mostly foredeck depending on where we are short.  I 
have driven my boat a bit but usually my wife Heather drives.  I get to drive 
on deliveries and under motor and on day sails ….

We have had a lot of “guest” sailors on Koobalibra over the years.  Former 
Olympians and champions.  We do indeed learn a lot!

We actually did start doing most of our racing in a Jib and Main series at our 
previous club on a previous boat (Niagara 26).  Most of the competitors were 
husband and wives on their cruising boats.  With us it was Heather and our 
young daughters and me.  It was fun and we did learn there as well.

Mike
Persistence
1987 Frers 33
Halifax, NS



From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Dennis C. 
via CnC-List
Sent: Thursday, April 28, 2016 11:05 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: Dennis C.
Subject: Re: Stus-List '88 MkII 30 polar?

Ditto. That's what I did. Not only do you absorb a lot of sailing go fast 
knowledge, you will also see what works best as far as running rigging 
configurations, strategy, etc.  I worked every position on lots of boats. My 
time spent racing on other boats was priceless.  I still do it.

As a skipper who has experience as main trimmer, genoa trimmer, grinder, put, 
foredeck, mast, etc. I understand what each crew member is doing, needs to do.  
Makes me a better skipper. BTW, I didn't usually drive the boat. One of my crew 
was better at it. I usually did foredeck.

Guy in my marina races his boat. He only drives. He never races on other boats 
nor does he do other positions on his boat.  His racing program never improves.

The other advantage to racing on other boats is you don't have to pay for 
broken stuff.  :)

Dennis C.
Touché 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

ciated!
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Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

Dwight is right on with his observation IMO

From: CnC-List [cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] on behalf of dwight veinot via 
CnC-List [cnc-list@cnc-list.com]
Sent: March 1, 2016 6:36 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: dwight veinot
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

That boat really loves 15-20 apparent upwind with a No. 1 headsail.  If you and 
your crew want to do spinnaker fleet you can for sure, but in my opinion you 
will have more fun on the triangle course, guess it depends on who you choose 
to race against

Dwight Veinot
C 35 MKII, Alianna
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net<mailto:d.ve...@bellaliant.net>


On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 7:00 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>> wrote:
I'm probably not remembering the length correctly.  I'd never seen a reaching 
strut before and didn't know what it was when I saw it at the survey.  To me it 
looked like a short spin pole.  It was short enough to fit in the lazarette of 
a 30-1.  I'm towing the boat from its current location to my lake in two weeks, 
so I'll get another look at it then.

Cheers,
Randy


From: "Gary Nylander via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: "Gary Nylander" <gnylan...@atlanticbb.net<mailto:gnylan...@atlanticbb.net>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:39:06 PM

Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

If it is really only a couple of feet long, it may not attach to the mast. Our 
PHRF rules say that any strut which holds a sail must attach there, but I don’t 
know about one which is only controlling a sheet and would never touch the 
sail.  ??? On our 30, we don’t use separate guys, just two sheets off the 
chute, one becomes the foreguy and the other is the aft. We end-for-end the 
pole. I use the twings (tweakers) to control the ‘guy’ sheet.

Gary

From: CnC-List 
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>] On 
Behalf Of Randy Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:36 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net<mailto:randy.staff...@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

You're right Martin.  The PO explained it to me at the survey, but neither of 
us understood it very well :)  I'll look for an attachment for it near the mast 
base.

Cheers,
Randy


From: "Martin DeYoung via CnC-List" 
<cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>>
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: "Martin DeYoung" <mdeyo...@deyoungmfg.com<mailto:mdeyo...@deyoungmfg.com>>
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 1:05:07 PM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

> My boat has a very short (two feet) aluminum pole with jaws on each end like 
> a spin pole - I wonder if that's what it's for.

That is likely a Reaching Strut used when close reaching with a spinnaker to 
force the After Guy (connects the spinnaker to the pole and pulls the pole aft) 
away from the side of the boat to improve the guy’s ability to pull the pole 
off the forestay.

One end of the reaching strut likely attaches near the base of the mast, the 
other holds the guy similar to the pole end.  On Calypso I tie the reaching 
strut to the shrouds and toe rail to keep it from sliding aft of raising up.

On the 43 with its highly loaded sheets/guys I strongly recommend crew keep 
well clear of the reaching strut when we have her rail down and fully loaded.  
One race a crew decided my recommendations did not apply to him when taking 
pictures with his phone.  The sail tie used to hold the reaching strut down 
close to the life lines failed and the strut popped up quickly hitting his 
hand.  It scared the sh*t out of him but did no damage beyond a good thump.  He 
was not invited back.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C 43
Seattle

[Description: Description: cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F]

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 11:47 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net<mailto:randy.staff...@comcast.net>
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

Thanks Gary, this is very helpful.  Couple details about my boat that affect 
crew positions / responsibilities: tiller steering, traveler aft on transom, 
halyards not led aft, no headsail furler.

So the full complement would be driver, mainsail trimmer, two headsail 
trimmers, mast person, and bow person.  If shorthanded the driver could trim 
the main, and the bow person could double as a headsail trimmer.  But probably 
need four minimum (driver, trimmer, mast, bow) t

Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

That boat really loves 15-20 apparent upwind with a No. 1 headsail.  If you
and your crew want to do spinnaker fleet you can for sure, but in my
opinion you will have more fun on the triangle course, guess it depends on
who you choose to race against

Dwight Veinot
C 35 MKII, *Alianna*
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net


On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 7:00 PM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> I'm probably not remembering the length correctly.  I'd never seen a
> reaching strut before and didn't know what it was when I saw it at the
> survey.  To me it looked like a short spin pole.  It was short enough to
> fit in the lazarette of a 30-1.  I'm towing the boat from its current
> location to my lake in two weeks, so I'll get another look at it then.
>
> Cheers,
> Randy
>
> --
> *From: *"Gary Nylander via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> *To: *cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc: *"Gary Nylander" <gnylan...@atlanticbb.net>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:39:06 PM
>
> *Subject: *Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1
>
> If it is really only a couple of feet long, it may not attach to the mast.
> Our PHRF rules say that any strut which holds a sail must attach there, but
> I don’t know about one which is only controlling a sheet and would never
> touch the sail.  ??? On our 30, we don’t use separate guys, just two sheets
> off the chute, one becomes the foreguy and the other is the aft. We
> end-for-end the pole. I use the twings (tweakers) to control the ‘guy’
> sheet.
>
>
>
> Gary
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] *On Behalf Of *Randy
> Stafford via CnC-List
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:36 PM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* randy.staff...@comcast.net
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1
>
>
>
> You're right Martin.  The PO explained it to me at the survey, but neither
> of us understood it very well :)  I'll look for an attachment for it near
> the mast base.
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Randy
>
>
> --
>
> *From: *"Martin DeYoung via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com>
> *To: *cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc: *"Martin DeYoung" <mdeyo...@deyoungmfg.com>
> *Sent: *Wednesday, February 24, 2016 1:05:07 PM
> *Subject: *Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1
>
>
>
> > My boat has a very short (two feet) aluminum pole with jaws on each end
> like a spin pole - I wonder if that's what it's for.
>
>
>
> That is likely a Reaching Strut used when close reaching with a spinnaker
> to force the After Guy (connects the spinnaker to the pole and pulls the
> pole aft) away from the side of the boat to improve the guy’s ability to
> pull the pole off the forestay.
>
>
>
> One end of the reaching strut likely attaches near the base of the mast,
> the other holds the guy similar to the pole end.  On Calypso I tie the
> reaching strut to the shrouds and toe rail to keep it from sliding aft of
> raising up.
>
>
>
> On the 43 with its highly loaded sheets/guys I strongly recommend crew
> keep well clear of the reaching strut when we have her rail down and fully
> loaded.  One race a crew decided my recommendations did not apply to him
> when taking pictures with his phone.  The sail tie used to hold the
> reaching strut down close to the life lines failed and the strut popped up
> quickly hitting his hand.  It scared the sh*t out of him but did no damage
> beyond a good thump.  He was not invited back.
>
>
>
> Martin DeYoung
>
> Calypso
>
> 1971 C 43
>
> Seattle
>
>
> [image: Description: Description: cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F]
>
>
>
> *From:* CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com
> <cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com>] *On Behalf Of *Randy Stafford via
> CnC-List
> *Sent:* Wednesday, February 24, 2016 11:47 AM
> *To:* cnc-list@cnc-list.com
> *Cc:* randy.staff...@comcast.net
> *Subject:* Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1
>
>
>
> Thanks Gary, this is very helpful.  Couple details about my boat that
> affect crew positions / responsibilities: tiller steering, traveler aft on
> transom, halyards not led aft, no headsail furler.
>
>
>
> So the full complement would be driver, mainsail trimmer, two headsail
> trimmers, mast person, and bow person.  If shorthanded the driver could
> trim the main, and the bow person could double as a headsail trimmer.  But
> probably need four minimum (driver, trimmer, mast, bow) to fly the chute,
> and more is better as the air gets heavier.
>
>
>
> Thanks for the tip about the barber hauler on reaches.  My boat

Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

I'm probably not remembering the length correctly. I'd never seen a reaching 
strut before and didn't know what it was when I saw it at the survey. To me it 
looked like a short spin pole. It was short enough to fit in the lazarette of a 
30-1. I'm towing the boat from its current location to my lake in two weeks, so 
I'll get another look at it then. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Gary Nylander via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: "Gary Nylander" <gnylan...@atlanticbb.net> 
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:39:06 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1 



If it is really only a couple of feet long, it may not attach to the mast. Our 
PHRF rules say that any strut which holds a sail must attach there, but I don’t 
know about one which is only controlling a sheet and would never touch the 
sail. ??? On our 30, we don’t use separate guys, just two sheets off the chute, 
one becomes the foreguy and the other is the aft. We end-for-end the pole. I 
use the twings (tweakers) to control the ‘guy’ sheet. 



Gary 




From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:36 PM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1 





You're right Martin. The PO explained it to me at the survey, but neither of us 
understood it very well :) I'll look for an attachment for it near the mast 
base. 





Cheers, 


Randy 



- Original Message -



From: "Martin DeYoung via CnC-List" < cnc-list@cnc-list.com > 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: "Martin DeYoung" < mdeyo...@deyoungmfg.com > 
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 1:05:07 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1 





> My boat has a very short (two feet) aluminum pole with jaws on each end like 
> a spin pole - I wonder if that's what it's for. 



That is likely a Reaching Strut used when close reaching with a spinnaker to 
force the After Guy (connects the spinnaker to the pole and pulls the pole aft) 
away from the side of the boat to improve the guy’s ability to pull the pole 
off the forestay. 



One end of the reaching strut likely attaches near the base of the mast, the 
other holds the guy similar to the pole end. On Calypso I tie the reaching 
strut to the shrouds and toe rail to keep it from sliding aft of raising up. 



On the 43 with its highly loaded sheets/guys I strongly recommend crew keep 
well clear of the reaching strut when we have her rail down and fully loaded. 
One race a crew decided my recommendations did not apply to him when taking 
pictures with his phone. The sail tie used to hold the reaching strut down 
close to the life lines failed and the strut popped up quickly hitting his 
hand. It scared the sh*t out of him but did no damage beyond a good thump. He 
was not invited back. 




Martin DeYoung 

Calypso 

1971 C 43 

Seattle 







From: CnC-List [ mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com ] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 11:47 AM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1 





Thanks Gary, this is very helpful. Couple details about my boat that affect 
crew positions / responsibilities: tiller steering, traveler aft on transom, 
halyards not led aft, no headsail furler. 





So the full complement would be driver, mainsail trimmer, two headsail 
trimmers, mast person, and bow person. If shorthanded the driver could trim the 
main, and the bow person could double as a headsail trimmer. But probably need 
four minimum (driver, trimmer, mast, bow) to fly the chute, and more is better 
as the air gets heavier. 





Thanks for the tip about the barber hauler on reaches. My boat has a very short 
(two feet) aluminum pole with jaws on each end like a spin pole - I wonder if 
that's what it's for. 





After getting your comments, and Mike's (Persistence, Halifax), I'll probably 
race in B division (JAM) in the spring series so my crew and I can get used to 
the boat and practice with the spinnaker outside of racing, then switch to A 
division (spinnaker) for the summer series. 





Much appreciated. 





Cheers, 
Randy 



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Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

If it is really only a couple of feet long, it may not attach to the mast. Our 
PHRF rules say that any strut which holds a sail must attach there, but I don’t 
know about one which is only controlling a sheet and would never touch the 
sail.  ??? On our 30, we don’t use separate guys, just two sheets off the 
chute, one becomes the foreguy and the other is the aft. We end-for-end the 
pole. I use the twings (tweakers) to control the ‘guy’ sheet.

 

Gary

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 3:36 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

 

You're right Martin.  The PO explained it to me at the survey, but neither of 
us understood it very well :)  I'll look for an attachment for it near the mast 
base.

 

Cheers,

Randy

 

  _  

From: "Martin DeYoung via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
<mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> >
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: "Martin DeYoung" <mdeyo...@deyoungmfg.com <mailto:mdeyo...@deyoungmfg.com> >
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 1:05:07 PM
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

 

> My boat has a very short (two feet) aluminum pole with jaws on each end like 
> a spin pole - I wonder if that's what it's for.

 

That is likely a Reaching Strut used when close reaching with a spinnaker to 
force the After Guy (connects the spinnaker to the pole and pulls the pole aft) 
away from the side of the boat to improve the guy’s ability to pull the pole 
off the forestay.

 

One end of the reaching strut likely attaches near the base of the mast, the 
other holds the guy similar to the pole end.  On Calypso I tie the reaching 
strut to the shrouds and toe rail to keep it from sliding aft of raising up.

 

On the 43 with its highly loaded sheets/guys I strongly recommend crew keep 
well clear of the reaching strut when we have her rail down and fully loaded.  
One race a crew decided my recommendations did not apply to him when taking 
pictures with his phone.  The sail tie used to hold the reaching strut down 
close to the life lines failed and the strut popped up quickly hitting his 
hand.  It scared the sh*t out of him but did no damage beyond a good thump.  He 
was not invited back.

 

Martin DeYoung

Calypso

1971 C 43

Seattle




 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 11:47 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com <mailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net <mailto:randy.staff...@comcast.net> 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

 

Thanks Gary, this is very helpful.  Couple details about my boat that affect 
crew positions / responsibilities: tiller steering, traveler aft on transom, 
halyards not led aft, no headsail furler.

 

So the full complement would be driver, mainsail trimmer, two headsail 
trimmers, mast person, and bow person.  If shorthanded the driver could trim 
the main, and the bow person could double as a headsail trimmer.  But probably 
need four minimum (driver, trimmer, mast, bow) to fly the chute, and more is 
better as the air gets heavier.

 

Thanks for the tip about the barber hauler on reaches.  My boat has a very 
short (two feet) aluminum pole with jaws on each end like a spin pole - I 
wonder if that's what it's for.

 

After getting your comments, and Mike's (Persistence, Halifax), I'll probably 
race in B division (JAM) in the spring series so my crew and I can get used to 
the boat and practice with the spinnaker outside of racing, then switch to A 
division (spinnaker) for the summer series.

 

Much appreciated.

 

Cheers,
Randy


___

 

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Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

You're right Martin. The PO explained it to me at the survey, but neither of us 
understood it very well :) I'll look for an attachment for it near the mast 
base. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Martin DeYoung via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: "Martin DeYoung" <mdeyo...@deyoungmfg.com> 
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 1:05:07 PM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1 



> My boat has a very short (two feet) aluminum pole with jaws on each end like 
> a spin pole - I wonder if that's what it's for. 



That is likely a Reaching Strut used when close reaching with a spinnaker to 
force the After Guy (connects the spinnaker to the pole and pulls the pole aft) 
away from the side of the boat to improve the guy’s ability to pull the pole 
off the forestay. 



One end of the reaching strut likely attaches near the base of the mast, the 
other holds the guy similar to the pole end. On Calypso I tie the reaching 
strut to the shrouds and toe rail to keep it from sliding aft of raising up. 



On the 43 with its highly loaded sheets/guys I strongly recommend crew keep 
well clear of the reaching strut when we have her rail down and fully loaded. 
One race a crew decided my recommendations did not apply to him when taking 
pictures with his phone. The sail tie used to hold the reaching strut down 
close to the life lines failed and the strut popped up quickly hitting his 
hand. It scared the sh*t out of him but did no damage beyond a good thump. He 
was not invited back. 




Martin DeYoung 

Calypso 

1971 C 43 

Seattle 







From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 11:47 AM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1 





Thanks Gary, this is very helpful. Couple details about my boat that affect 
crew positions / responsibilities: tiller steering, traveler aft on transom, 
halyards not led aft, no headsail furler. 





So the full complement would be driver, mainsail trimmer, two headsail 
trimmers, mast person, and bow person. If shorthanded the driver could trim the 
main, and the bow person could double as a headsail trimmer. But probably need 
four minimum (driver, trimmer, mast, bow) to fly the chute, and more is better 
as the air gets heavier. 





Thanks for the tip about the barber hauler on reaches. My boat has a very short 
(two feet) aluminum pole with jaws on each end like a spin pole - I wonder if 
that's what it's for. 





After getting your comments, and Mike's (Persistence, Halifax), I'll probably 
race in B division (JAM) in the spring series so my crew and I can get used to 
the boat and practice with the spinnaker outside of racing, then switch to A 
division (spinnaker) for the summer series. 





Much appreciated. 





Cheers, 
Randy 

___ 

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Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

> My boat has a very short (two feet) aluminum pole with jaws on each end like 
> a spin pole - I wonder if that's what it's for.

That is likely a Reaching Strut used when close reaching with a spinnaker to 
force the After Guy (connects the spinnaker to the pole and pulls the pole aft) 
away from the side of the boat to improve the guy’s ability to pull the pole 
off the forestay.

One end of the reaching strut likely attaches near the base of the mast, the 
other holds the guy similar to the pole end.  On Calypso I tie the reaching 
strut to the shrouds and toe rail to keep it from sliding aft of raising up.

On the 43 with its highly loaded sheets/guys I strongly recommend crew keep 
well clear of the reaching strut when we have her rail down and fully loaded.  
One race a crew decided my recommendations did not apply to him when taking 
pictures with his phone.  The sail tie used to hold the reaching strut down 
close to the life lines failed and the strut popped up quickly hitting his 
hand.  It scared the sh*t out of him but did no damage beyond a good thump.  He 
was not invited back.

Martin DeYoung
Calypso
1971 C 43
Seattle

[Description: Description: cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F]

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 11:47 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

Thanks Gary, this is very helpful.  Couple details about my boat that affect 
crew positions / responsibilities: tiller steering, traveler aft on transom, 
halyards not led aft, no headsail furler.

So the full complement would be driver, mainsail trimmer, two headsail 
trimmers, mast person, and bow person.  If shorthanded the driver could trim 
the main, and the bow person could double as a headsail trimmer.  But probably 
need four minimum (driver, trimmer, mast, bow) to fly the chute, and more is 
better as the air gets heavier.

Thanks for the tip about the barber hauler on reaches.  My boat has a very 
short (two feet) aluminum pole with jaws on each end like a spin pole - I 
wonder if that's what it's for.

After getting your comments, and Mike's (Persistence, Halifax), I'll probably 
race in B division (JAM) in the spring series so my crew and I can get used to 
the boat and practice with the spinnaker outside of racing, then switch to A 
division (spinnaker) for the summer series.

Much appreciated.

Cheers,
Randy
___

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Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

[Randy Stafford via CnC-List]

Thanks Gary, this is very helpful. Couple details about my boat that affect 
crew positions / responsibilities: tiller steering, traveler aft on transom, 
halyards not led aft, no headsail furler. 

So the full complement would be driver, mainsail trimmer, two headsail 
trimmers, mast person, and bow person. If shorthanded the driver could trim the 
main, and the bow person could double as a headsail trimmer. But probably need 
four minimum (driver, trimmer, mast, bow) to fly the chute, and more is better 
as the air gets heavier. 

Thanks for the tip about the barber hauler on reaches. My boat has a very short 
(two feet) aluminum pole with jaws on each end like a spin pole - I wonder if 
that's what it's for. 

After getting your comments, and Mike's (Persistence, Halifax), I'll probably 
race in B division (JAM) in the spring series so my crew and I can get used to 
the boat and practice with the spinnaker outside of racing, then switch to A 
division (spinnaker) for the summer series. 

Much appreciated. 

Cheers, 
Randy 

- Original Message -

From: "Gary Nylander via CnC-List" <cnc-list@cnc-list.com> 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: "Gary Nylander" <gnylan...@atlanticbb.net> 
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 11:20:13 AM 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1 



I’ll try to answer your questions, but the 30 is somewhat unique. I say this 
from owning and racing mine for over 20 years. 



I have raced both spinnaker and non-spinnaker and picked up my fair share of 
trophies in each. My ex (Admiral – we share the boat) and her husband race her 
now in a mixed fleet and have done quite well, taking the series title a couple 
of years ago (she drives, he grinds and the rest of the crew is pretty good). I 
won our JAM series in 2013 and was second in 2014 (didn’t race all the races 
last year). 



Crew: five or six for spin – one on bow to hook up the chute and pull down the 
genoa – one on mast – handles pole end and helps on the halyards and adjusts 
the outhaul – everything else on Penniless is led aft, so there can be four in 
cockpit (too many) so spin trimmer is generally standing by the windows. 
Driver, main trimmer (traveler is on bridge deck by companionway, easily 
handled by one person and it is not that vital to jump back to the rail – boat 
is stout as I said), two jib folks, one to let out, and the other to pull in. 
Any more, they go on the rail. 



For JAM, don’t always need the bow person, so mast person can do both – and no 
spin to trim. Most of the time I like five for JAM, because we sometimes use 
the spin pole with the genoa. And, sometimes we change sails, no furler. 



The boat does well on reaches only if you sheet the genoa to the rail or 
further out with a barber hauler device – I have inboard adjustable genoa 
tracks. 



It helps a lot to have some under 60 folks aboard – young and strong is great 
when hauling in the genoa – it is big. 



And…. Everybody will tell you – good sails, clean bottom, skilled crew and the 
30 will do well in either fleet. 



Gary 

#593 




From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List 
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 12:49 AM 
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net 
Subject: Stus-List Racing a 30-1 





Hi All, 





I'd welcome any opinions you might like to share on racing a 30-1. As mentioned 
in the other thread on handicapping JAM boats, I have a choice of racing my 
(new to me) 30-1 in a spinnaker boat division or a non-spinnaker boat division 
(my boat is rigged for spinnaker). We have ten-week series in my club, and I'd 
have to stay in one division for a whole series (but could switch divisions 
between series). We also have occasional one and two-day weekend races in which 
I'd have to choose a division. 





>From what I see in 
>http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Offshore/PHRF/2014%20PHRF%20Handicaps%20Data.pdf
> , it looks like a 30-1 usually gets a PHRF rating of 174, which would be the 
>third-lowest rating in my club. We've got a Capri-25 at 173, and an F-240s at 
>170. 





One of my questions is how many crew are advisable for racing a 30-1, with 
spinnaker or without. On smaller boats (Capri-22s, J/22s, Merit 25s) we'd race 
and fly spinnaker with three crew - helm, trimmer, and foredeck. A fourth could 
come in handy in heavy air. I've gotten a couple indications that I should have 
maybe twice that number for a 30-1. What are the typical crew positions on a 
30-1? If it makes any difference, my spinnakers have dousing socks. 





I race on a lake in Colorado. The spinnaker division courses are upwind / 
downwind, and the non-spinnaker division courses are triangles. We generally 
try to set courses so that races last 60-90 minutes. Weather-wise we have 
varied conditions from night to night. Some nights are frickin' gusty, with 
Colorado afternoon and evening thunderst

Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

I’ll try to answer your questions, but the 30 is somewhat unique. I say this 
from owning and racing mine for over 20 years. 

 

I have raced both spinnaker and non-spinnaker and picked up my fair share of 
trophies in each. My ex (Admiral – we share the boat) and her husband race her 
now in a mixed fleet and have done quite well, taking the series title a couple 
of years ago (she drives, he grinds and the rest of the crew is pretty good). I 
won our JAM series in 2013 and was second in 2014 (didn’t race all the races 
last year).

 

Crew: five or six for spin – one on bow to hook up the chute and pull down the 
genoa – one on mast – handles pole end and helps on the halyards and adjusts 
the outhaul – everything else on Penniless is led aft, so there can be four in 
cockpit (too many) so spin trimmer is generally standing by the windows. 
Driver, main trimmer (traveler is on bridge deck by companionway, easily 
handled by one person and it is not that vital to jump back to the rail – boat 
is stout as I said), two jib folks, one to let out, and the other to pull in. 
Any more, they go on the rail.

 

For JAM, don’t always need the bow person, so mast person can do both – and no 
spin to trim. Most of the time I like five for JAM, because we sometimes use 
the spin pole with the genoa. And, sometimes we change sails, no furler.

The boat does well on reaches only if you sheet the genoa to the rail or 
further out with a barber hauler device – I have inboard adjustable genoa 
tracks.

 

It helps a lot to have some under 60 folks aboard – young and strong is great 
when hauling in the genoa – it is big.

 

And…. Everybody will tell you – good sails, clean bottom, skilled crew and the 
30 will do well in either fleet.

 

Gary

#593

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 12:49 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net
Subject: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

 

Hi All,

 

I'd welcome any opinions you might like to share on racing a 30-1.  As 
mentioned in the other thread on handicapping JAM boats, I have a choice of 
racing my (new to me) 30-1 in a spinnaker boat division or a non-spinnaker boat 
division (my boat is rigged for spinnaker).  We have ten-week series in my 
club, and I'd have to stay in one division for a whole series (but could switch 
divisions between series).  We also have occasional one and two-day weekend 
races in which I'd have to choose a division.

 

>From what I see in 
>http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Offshore/PHRF/2014%20PHRF%20Handicaps%20Data.pdf,
> it looks like a 30-1 usually gets a PHRF rating of 174, which would be the 
>third-lowest rating in my club.  We've got a Capri-25 at 173, and an F-240s at 
>170.

 

One of my questions is how many crew are advisable for racing a 30-1, with 
spinnaker or without.  On smaller boats (Capri-22s, J/22s, Merit 25s) we'd race 
and fly spinnaker with three crew - helm, trimmer, and foredeck.  A fourth 
could come in handy in heavy air.  I've gotten a couple indications that I 
should have maybe twice that number for a 30-1.  What are the typical crew 
positions on a 30-1?  If it makes any difference, my spinnakers have dousing 
socks.

 

I race on a lake in Colorado.  The spinnaker division courses are upwind / 
downwind, and the non-spinnaker division courses are triangles.  We generally 
try to set courses so that races last 60-90 minutes.  Weather-wise we have 
varied conditions from night to night.  Some nights are frickin' gusty, with 
Colorado afternoon and evening thunderstorms.  Some nights are light air and we 
run out of beer before finishing :)  Several times a year we get really good 
conditions - a steady 15-20 kt. breeze in which everyone's at hull speed and 
and trying to stay in control and / or reduce weather helm.  Sea state is not 
really an issue, except for some powerboat wake and chop.

 

If there were more light-air nights in a series than heavy-air nights, would a 
30-1 perform better against its PRHF on a triangle course, or on an upwind / 
downwind course?  How many crew (some experienced, some not, all still 
reasonably agile) are needed to handle a 30-1 safely under spinnaker in gusty 
or heavy-air conditions?

 

Thanks in advance for any opinions.

 

Best Regards,

Randy Stafford

S/V Grenadine

C 30 MK1 #7

Ken Caryl, CO

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Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

[Hoyt, Mike via CnC-List]

If gusty and triangles and boats are “trying to stay in control or reduce 
weather helm” then bodies on the rail will keep you powered up and fast.  
Otherwise you will need a main trimmer to work very closely with helm to keep 
you on your feet

If you JAM is triangles and everyone is at hull speed then you do not really 
require to be in spin class since there are no DDW legs and the 30 with a large 
genoa should always be moving.

That boat loves it when the wind pipes up.  Put some bodies on board and on the 
rail and do not reef too early and you will kick but on triangle JAM courses.  
Once you get bored of that and when you have 6 persons then try switching to WL 
with the spin

Mike

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Randy 
Stafford via CnC-List
Sent: Wednesday, February 24, 2016 1:49 AM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Cc: randy.staff...@comcast.net
Subject: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

Hi All,

I'd welcome any opinions you might like to share on racing a 30-1.  As 
mentioned in the other thread on handicapping JAM boats, I have a choice of 
racing my (new to me) 30-1 in a spinnaker boat division or a non-spinnaker boat 
division (my boat is rigged for spinnaker).  We have ten-week series in my 
club, and I'd have to stay in one division for a whole series (but could switch 
divisions between series).  We also have occasional one and two-day weekend 
races in which I'd have to choose a division.

From what I see in 
http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Offshore/PHRF/2014%20PHRF%20Handicaps%20Data.pdf,
 it looks like a 30-1 usually gets a PHRF rating of 174, which would be the 
third-lowest rating in my club.  We've got a Capri-25 at 173, and an F-240s at 
170.

One of my questions is how many crew are advisable for racing a 30-1, with 
spinnaker or without.  On smaller boats (Capri-22s, J/22s, Merit 25s) we'd race 
and fly spinnaker with three crew - helm, trimmer, and foredeck.  A fourth 
could come in handy in heavy air.  I've gotten a couple indications that I 
should have maybe twice that number for a 30-1.  What are the typical crew 
positions on a 30-1?  If it makes any difference, my spinnakers have dousing 
socks.

I race on a lake in Colorado.  The spinnaker division courses are upwind / 
downwind, and the non-spinnaker division courses are triangles.  We generally 
try to set courses so that races last 60-90 minutes.  Weather-wise we have 
varied conditions from night to night.  Some nights are frickin' gusty, with 
Colorado afternoon and evening thunderstorms.  Some nights are light air and we 
run out of beer before finishing :)  Several times a year we get really good 
conditions - a steady 15-20 kt. breeze in which everyone's at hull speed and 
and trying to stay in control and / or reduce weather helm.  Sea state is not 
really an issue, except for some powerboat wake and chop.

If there were more light-air nights in a series than heavy-air nights, would a 
30-1 perform better against its PRHF on a triangle course, or on an upwind / 
downwind course?  How many crew (some experienced, some not, all still 
reasonably agile) are needed to handle a 30-1 safely under spinnaker in gusty 
or heavy-air conditions?

Thanks in advance for any opinions.

Best Regards,
Randy Stafford
S/V Grenadine
C 30 MK1 #7
Ken Caryl, CO
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Re: Stus-List Racing a 30-1

[Curtis via CnC-List]

Real good questions. from what I gather fewer sometimes is better. That
being said I don't think the driver should anything but drive and direct
positions.
The tactician needs to focus. he can lose the race by simple missing a
start or a mark.

Racing:

   - Captain/Helm - overall commander and drives boat
   - Tactician - Usually next to captain. Decides course and calls manuvers
   - Mainsail Trimmer - Often the captain will handle this on a very small
   boat. Trims main.
   - Headsail trimmers - Trim and tack headsail. Often trim spinnaker too
   - Pit - On small boats often done by trimmers. controls hallyards and
   topping lift and downhaul
   - Mast - Jumps sails and handles spinnaker pole on symmetrical spinnaker
   boats
   - Bow - The poor bastard who rigs headsails, skirts headsails and is
   generally yelled at by everyone. Most important person on boat.



The ones in blue you can do without. If you are furled on your head-sail or
not,  you still need the position.

Good luck. Let us know how it goes.

Capt, Curtis McDaniel

Dataw Island Marina

Harbor Master



On Wed, Feb 24, 2016 at 12:49 AM, Randy Stafford via CnC-List <
cnc-list@cnc-list.com> wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> I'd welcome any opinions you might like to share on racing a 30-1.  As
> mentioned in the other thread on handicapping JAM boats, I have a choice of
> racing my (new to me) 30-1 in a spinnaker boat division or a non-spinnaker
> boat division (my boat is rigged for spinnaker).  We have ten-week series
> in my club, and I'd have to stay in one division for a whole series (but
> could switch divisions between series).  We also have occasional one and
> two-day weekend races in which I'd have to choose a division.
>
> From what I see in
> http://www.ussailing.org/wp-content/uploads/DARoot/Offshore/PHRF/2014%20PHRF%20Handicaps%20Data.pdf,
> it looks like a 30-1 usually gets a PHRF rating of 174, which would be the
> third-lowest rating in my club.  We've got a Capri-25 at 173, and an F-240s
> at 170.
>
> One of my questions is how many crew are advisable for racing a 30-1, with
> spinnaker or without.  On smaller boats (Capri-22s, J/22s, Merit 25s) we'd
> race and fly spinnaker with three crew - helm, trimmer, and foredeck.  A
> fourth could come in handy in heavy air.  I've gotten a couple indications
> that I should have maybe twice that number for a 30-1.  What are the
> typical crew positions on a 30-1?  If it makes any difference, my
> spinnakers have dousing socks.
>
> I race on a lake in Colorado.  The spinnaker division courses are upwind /
> downwind, and the non-spinnaker division courses are triangles.  We
> generally try to set courses so that races last 60-90 minutes.
> Weather-wise we have varied conditions from night to night.  Some nights
> are frickin' gusty, with Colorado afternoon and evening thunderstorms.
> Some nights are light air and we run out of beer before finishing :)
>  Several times a year we get really good conditions - a steady 15-20 kt.
> breeze in which everyone's at hull speed and and trying to stay in control
> and / or reduce weather helm.  Sea state is not really an issue, except for
> some powerboat wake and chop.
>
> If there were more light-air nights in a series than heavy-air nights,
> would a 30-1 perform better against its PRHF on a triangle course, or on an
> upwind / downwind course?  How many crew (some experienced, some not, all
> still reasonably agile) are needed to handle a 30-1 safely under spinnaker
> in gusty or heavy-air conditions?
>
> Thanks in advance for any opinions.
>
> Best Regards,
> Randy Stafford
> S/V Grenadine
> C 30 MK1 #7
> Ken Caryl, CO
>
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>
>
>


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*Best regards,*

*Capt,Curtis McDaniel*



*"At sea, I learned how little a person needs, not how much."470-313-0918*
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Re: Stus-List Racing Crew Opportunity in Toronto

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

Ron,

Are you paying for airfare? :-)


All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY 
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log http://enterpriseb.blogspot.com/













 On Mar 26, 2015, at 8:54 AM, Ron Ander via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 wrote:
 
 I race a CC 29 Mk 2 in the Spinnaker division on Tuesday and Thursday nights 
 at Etobicoke Yacht Club. I am looking for two experienced racing crew to 
 complete my team for either or both nights starting on Tuesday, May 12th and 
 racing for 22 consecutive weeks. I will conduct 4 training/practice sessions 
 starting on Tuesday, April 28th. There might be other skippers seeking crew 
 as well. I will forward any extra names to the racing crew bank at our club.
  
 If you know of any others who might be interested in racing in our 
 competitive fleets please respond. 
  
 Thanks
  
 Ron Ander
 Alchemist
  
  
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Stus-List Racing Crew Opportunity in Toronto

[Ron Ander via CnC-List]

I race a CC 29 Mk 2 in the Spinnaker division on Tuesday and Thursday
nights at Etobicoke Yacht Club. I am looking for two experienced racing crew
to complete my team for either or both nights starting on Tuesday, May 12th
and racing for 22 consecutive weeks. I will conduct 4 training/practice
sessions starting on Tuesday, April 28th. There might be other skippers
seeking crew as well. I will forward any extra names to the racing crew bank
at our club.

 

If you know of any others who might be interested in racing in our
competitive fleets please respond. 

 

Thanks

 

Ron Ander

Alchemist

 

 

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Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Chuck;

 

The NC PHRF rule specify penalties for spinnaker poles longer than J. I think 
it is -3 for SPL105% of J and -6 of SPL105%.

 

Years ago, when I was racing my 25 mostly in JAM races and doing a lot of RC 
duties for my local club and a couple of charity regattas, my local PHRF 
handicapper told me that there was no restriction on the length of a whisker 
pole used in JAM racing. And the existence of a whisker pole would not change 
the boats PHRF rating.  I can’t find that written down in the information on 
the current NC PHRF website, but it makes logical sense. 

 

No way could you use a whisker pole in place of a spin pole for spin racing - 
not heavy enough, and in any event a pole longer than J would draw a rating 
adjustment.  But using a spin pole limited to J is only a slight improvement 
over using no pole at all in JAM racing. Plus restricting the pole would run 
contrary to the idea that the boat is supposed to be properly equipped and in 
race ready condition.

 

I have always carried both a legal spin pole and a whisker pole on both my 
boats (plus a reaching strut on the 38).

 

 

Rick Brass

Washington, NC

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck S via 
CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 11:20 AM
To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list
Subject: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

 

Ron, Gary, Rick,  

Curious.  Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles longer than J length to 
be used during a race in your areas?


Chuck
Resolute
1990 CC 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md

 

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Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List]

Unfortunately we're limited to J.  It's OK for DDW, but doesn't allow much 
reaching up in the lighter airs.  Allowing 80% of the genoa's LP, as someone 
mentioned earlier as the most efficient pole length, would be better.  If I did 
my math right, that translates to a pole length of 124% of J for the 155% genny 
that most use.That would also be a major improvement for beam reaching.  
Normally the clew of the genny will start to curl in on the 155% on a beam 
reach, so having the pole to extend the curl back to smooth flow would be more 
efficient.RonWild CheriCC 30-1STL

  From: Chuck S via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 10:19 AM
 Subject: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles
   
Ron, Gary, Rick,  Curious.  Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles longer 
than J length to be used during a race in your areas?

Chuck
Resolute
1990 CC 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md





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Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[D.J. Platt via CnC-List]

PHRF is inherently unfair.  Some boats are relatively better in some conditions 
than others.   My boat, for example,  will sail consistently better than it's 
rating in heavy air.  Having said that, on lake Ontario the differential 
between spi and non spi boats is 20 seconds per mile.  Forget about the 
unfairness of the process and go and have fun.  

Cheers

david
Wanderer
CC32


From: Ronald B. Frerker via CnC-List 
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 12:41 PM
To: Chuck S ; cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles


Unfortunately we're limited to J.  It's OK for DDW, but doesn't allow much 
reaching up in the lighter airs.  Allowing 80% of the genoa's LP, as someone 
mentioned earlier as the most efficient pole length, would be better.  If I did 
my math right, that translates to a pole length of 124% of J for the 155% genny 
that most use.
That would also be a major improvement for beam reaching.  Normally the clew of 
the genny will start to curl in on the 155% on a beam reach, so having the pole 
to extend the curl back to smooth flow would be more efficient.
Ron
Wild Cheri
CC 30-1
STL






From: Chuck S via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 10:19 AM
Subject: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles



Ron, Gary, Rick,  
Curious.  Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles longer than J length to 
be used during a race in your areas?


Chuck
Resolute
1990 CC 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 
















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Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[Chuck S via CnC-List]

Ron, Gary, Rick, 
Curious. Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles longer than J length to be 
used during a race in your areas? 

Chuck 
Resolute 
1990 CC 34R 
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md 

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Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[Gary Nylander via CnC-List]

The three local RC's I race with have no specific rules about whisker poles, 
thus rely on PHRF definition which says it cannot be longer than J without 
penalty. An adjustable pole must be marked at J.

Gary Nylander
30-1
St. Michaels Maryland

  - Original Message - 
  From: Chuck S via CnC-List 
  To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list 
  Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 11:19 AM
  Subject: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles


  Ron, Gary, Rick,  
  Curious.  Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles longer than J length to 
be used during a race in your areas?


  Chuck
  Resolute
  1990 CC 34R
  Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md





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Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[dwight veinot via CnC-List]

Don't the rules call for the inboard end of the whisker pole to be attached
at the mast?

Dwight Veinot
CC 35 MKII, *Alianna*
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
d.ve...@bellaliant.net


On Sat, Mar 21, 2015 at 5:22 PM, Gary Nylander via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

  The three local RC's I race with have no specific rules about whisker
 poles, thus rely on PHRF definition which says it cannot be longer than J
 without penalty. An adjustable pole must be marked at J.

 Gary Nylander
 30-1
 St. Michaels Maryland


 - Original Message -
 *From:* Chuck S via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 *To:* CNC boat owners, cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 *Sent:* Saturday, March 21, 2015 11:19 AM
 *Subject:* Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

  Ron, Gary, Rick,
 Curious.  Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles *longer than J
 length* to be used during a race in your areas?

 Chuck
 Resolute
 1990 CC 34R
 Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md

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Re: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

[Ron Casciato via CnC-List]

Chuck et al.

 

According to my reading of the rating adjustments in this link
http://www.phrfne.org/page/handicapping/handicap_adjustments   ; Whisker
pole may only be = to J dimension.  The rest of this tome makes my head hurt
often.

 

However, we have figured out how to get the 38MKII to rate at 145 in a mixed
fleet using only jib and mainin all of the Wednesday series races. In
pursuit races the cruising rating is 142..(Cruising rating of 132 + 10).  

 

The discussion this past year over the ratings of boats with bow sprits and
the oversized ASYMS has been a painful exercise in not satisfying
anybody...so the topic is shelved until sometime in the futurethe rating
adjustments here work for our CC's .  The issue has been for boats like the
older J35 which would have been wacked to match a new J109absurd

 

Ron

Impromptu

CC 38MKIIC..'77

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Chuck S
via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, March 21, 2015 11:20 AM
To: CNC boat owners, cnc-list
Subject: Stus-List Racing w whisker poles

 

Ron, Gary, Rick,  

Curious.  Does your RC allow adjustable whisker poles longer than J length
to be used during a race in your areas?


Chuck
Resolute
1990 CC 34R
Broad Creek, Magothy River, Md

 

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Stus-List Racing rules question

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

I hope some of the racers among the list might want to chime in on the 
following.

Before the start this weekend, 2 boats 'barged' down the line, one immediately 
to windward and starboard of me (WP) who I protested immediately after the 
incident, hailed that I(WP) protested him (NC) and flew the red flag. He (NC) 
did not protest the boat to weather of him until all of us were near the 
weather mark. Either for that or another technical reason, his (NC) protest was 
thrown out (details unknown since the protest was not heard at a 
hearing/meeting as yet) but I was informed of it by his email.
 
 My question for the list is the following: 

AFAIK, I (WP) could not protest any boat except the one nearest to me (NC), 
which I did. 

He (NC) protested the boat to his starboard/windward (Q) which he could not 
take up because that boat (Q) did not yield his position, as he should have. 
Probably would have forced him over the starting line but immaterial AFAIK. 
There were no obstructions involved.

Am I out of luck since his (the middle boat) protest (NC) was thrown out?

I know from a similar past experience when the middle boat did not protest the 
boat to his starboard/windward side before the start, that he (the middle boat) 
was exonerated since he was prevented from going up by another boat and did not 
bother to protest the boat to windward of him. Thus I was 'hosed' since he was 
exonerated and the real culprit (the boat to his starboard/windward side) got 
off with no penalty.

The current situation is identical except the middle boat (NC) did protest the 
most windward boat (Q), but his protest was thrown out on a technicality 
(likely not timely enough).

I have an inkling that a BOHICA moment is approaching, as in Bend Over Here It 
Comes Again!!

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
CC 36 XL/kcb




 
 
 
 
 
cenel...@aol.com

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Re: Stus-List Racing rules question

[Michael Crombie via CnC-List]

Hi Charlie,

I don't know all the details, but assuming you had rights to head up the other 
boat (the middle one) and you actually attempted to, then what happens between 
the middle boat and other boats above her is irrelevant. Your protest is valid. 
 

As far as I know, the middle boat cannot be exonerated from your protest 
because the boats or boats above them did not respond. That seems like a 
judging error to me.

Mike
Sent wirelessly from my BlackBerry device on the Bell network.
Envoyé sans fil par mon terminal mobile BlackBerry sur le réseau de Bell.
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Re: Stus-List Racing rules question

[Indigo via CnC-List]

My understanding - 
You are not out of luck. NCs protest was as you say likely thrown out as he 
did not protest properly in a timely manner (61.1 a). This just prevents NC for 
being exonerated by the actions/ inactions of Q. NC is still on the hook for 
fouling you - and unless he did his penalty turns as specified in the Sailing 
Instructions should be disqualified by the Protest Committee

--
Jonathan
Indigo CC 35III
SOUTHPORT CT

 On Oct 20, 2014, at 10:36, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 I hope some of the racers among the list might want to chime in on the 
 following.
  
 Before the start this weekend, 2 boats 'barged' down the line, one 
 immediately to windward and starboard of me (WP) who I protested immediately 
 after the incident, hailed that I(WP) protested him (NC) and flew the red 
 flag. He (NC) did not protest the boat to weather of him until all of us were 
 near the weather mark. Either for that or another technical reason, his (NC) 
 protest was thrown out (details unknown since the protest was not heard at a 
 hearing/meeting as yet) but I was informed of it by his email.
  
  My question for the list is the following:
  
 AFAIK, I (WP) could not protest any boat except the one nearest to me (NC), 
 which I did.
  
 He (NC) protested the boat to his starboard/windward (Q) which he could not 
 take up because that boat (Q) did not yield his position, as he should have. 
 Probably would have forced him over the starting line but immaterial AFAIK. 
 There were no obstructions involved.
  
 Am I out of luck since his (the middle boat) protest (NC) was thrown out?
  
 I know from a similar past experience when the middle boat did not protest 
 the boat to his starboard/windward side before the start, that he (the middle 
 boat) was exonerated since he was prevented from going up by another boat and 
 did not bother to protest the boat to windward of him. Thus I was 'hosed' 
 since he was exonerated and the real culprit (the boat to his 
 starboard/windward side) got off with no penalty.
  
 The current situation is identical except the middle boat (NC) did protest 
 the most windward boat (Q), but his protest was thrown out on a technicality 
 (likely not timely enough).
  
 I have an inkling that a BOHICA moment is approaching, as in Bend Over Here 
 It Comes Again!!
  
 Charlie Nelson
 Water Phantom
 CC 36 XL/kcb
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
  
 cenel...@aol.com
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Re: Stus-List Racing rules question

[Alan Bergen via CnC-List]

Charlie: 

If NC (the middle boat) cannot head up when you try to take her up, she will be 
exonerated at your protest hearing if she protested the windward boat at the 
first reasonable opportunity and she raised her protest flag at the first 
reasonable opportunity . Otherwise, her protest will not be heard, the windward 
boat will get off even though she broke a rule, and at your protest hearing, NC 
should be disqualified. In the past experience that you referred to, the middle 
boat should have been disqualified, unless she took a two turns penalty. If she 
didn't do her turns, the protest committee erred by exonerating her. Rule 61 
and sub paragraphs of the RRS cover protest requirements. It's always a good 
idea to protest a boat that has broken a rule, since it might make a difference 
between exoneration and disqualification. 

Alan Bergen 
35 Mk III Thirsty 
Rose City YC 
Portland, OR 


I hope some of the racers among the list might want to chime in on the 
following. 
Before the start this weekend, 2 boats 'barged' down the line, one immediately 
to windward and starboard of me (WP) who I protested immediately after the 
incident, hailed that I(WP) protested him (NC) and flew the red flag. He (NC) 
did not protest the boat to weather of him until all of us were near the 
weather mark. Either for that or another technical reason, his (NC) protest was 
thrown out (details unknown since the protest was not heard at a 
hearing/meeting as yet) but I was informed of it by his email. 
My question for the list is the following: 
AFAIK, I (WP) could not protest any boat except the one nearest to me (NC), 
which I did. 
He (NC) protested the boat to his starboard/windward (Q) which he could not 
take up because that boat (Q) did not yield his position, as he should have. 
Probably would have forced him over the starting line but immaterial AFAIK. 
There were no obstructions involved. 
Am I out of luck since his (the middle boat) protest (NC) was thrown out? 
I know from a similar past experience when the middle boat did not protest the 
boat to his starboard/windward side before the start, that he (the middle boat) 
was exonerated since he was prevented from going up by another boat and did not 
bother to protest the boat to windward of him. Thus I was 'hosed' since he was 
exonerated and the real culprit (the boat to his starboard/windward side) got 
off with no penalty. 
The current situation is identical except the middle boat (NC) did protest the 
most windward boat (Q), but his protest was thrown out on a technicality 
(likely not timely enough). 
I have an inkling that a BOHICA moment is approaching, as in Bend Over Here It 
Comes Again!! 
Charlie Nelson 
Water Phantom 
CC 36 XL/kcb 

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Re: Stus-List Racing rules question

[Charlie Nelson via CnC-List]

That is pretty much my understanding regarding the boat to starboard/windward 
of me (NC). Unfortuntely, the 'real' culprit in this scenario
escapes (Q) without any penalty since the boat able to protest him (NC) screwed 
up their protest. So NC gets disqualified (because of a 
technicallity on her protest) and the most culpable boat in this scenario (Q) 
'skates' with no penalty! 
 
This effectively encourages skippers caught in this 'middle' position to not 
file a protest. For instance, if NC had not filed, they would have been 
exonerated, not disqualified,
since they were prevented from following the rules by the boat to windward of 
them. In fact, NC only filed his protest because I told him I was filing 
against him. I did this
in an effort to get the real culprit disqualified (Q). 

This seems like an area that should be handled differently by the RRS IMHO, at 
least if I understand the rules correcty.  Apparently I can only protest the 
boat that directly fouled me, even if that boat was acting properly by avoiding 
a collision with the boat to windward of her.

BOHICA

Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
CC 36 XL/kcb




 
cenel...@aol.com

 
 
-Original Message-
From: Indigo ind...@thethomsons.us
To: cenelson cenel...@aol.com; cnc-list cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Sent: Mon, Oct 20, 2014 11:37 am
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules question



My understanding - 
You are not out of luck. NCs protest was as you say likely thrown out as he 
did not protest properly in a timely manner (61.1 a). This just prevents NC for 
being exonerated by the actions/ inactions of Q. NC is still on the hook for 
fouling you - and unless he did his penalty turns as specified in the Sailing 
Instructions should be disqualified by the Protest Committee


--
Jonathan
Indigo CC 35III

SOUTHPORT CT


On Oct 20, 2014, at 10:36, Charlie Nelson via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
wrote:



I hope some of the racers among the list might want to chime in on the 
following.
 
Before the start this weekend, 2 boats 'barged' down the line, one immediately 
to windward and starboard of me (WP) who I protested immediately after the 
incident, hailed that I(WP) protested him (NC) and flew the red flag. He (NC) 
did not protest the boat to weather of him until all of us were near the 
weather mark. Either for that or another technical reason, his (NC) protest was 
thrown out (details unknown since the protest was not heard at a 
hearing/meeting as yet) but I was informed of it by his email.
 
 My question for the list is the following: 
 
AFAIK, I (WP) could not protest any boat except the one nearest to me (NC), 
which I did. 
 
He (NC) protested the boat to his starboard/windward (Q) which he could not 
take up because that boat (Q) did not yield his position, as he should have. 
Probably would have forced him over the starting line but immaterial AFAIK. 
There were no obstructions involved.
 
Am I out of luck since his (the middle boat) protest (NC) was thrown out?
 
I know from a similar past experience when the middle boat did not protest the 
boat to his starboard/windward side before the start, that he (the middle boat) 
was exonerated since he was prevented from going up by another boat and did not 
bother to protest the boat to windward of him. Thus I was 'hosed' since he was 
exonerated and the real culprit (the boat to his starboard/windward side) got 
off with no penalty.
 
The current situation is identical except the middle boat (NC) did protest the 
most windward boat (Q), but his protest was thrown out on a technicality 
(likely not timely enough).
 
I have an inkling that a BOHICA moment is approaching, as in Bend Over Here It 
Comes Again!!
 
Charlie Nelson
Water Phantom
CC 36 XL/kcb
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
cenel...@aol.com



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Re: Stus-List Racing rules question

[Wally Bryant via CnC-List]

Hmm.  Sounds like a Mexican divorce.

you wrote:

Unfortuntely, the 'real' culprit in this scenario
escapes (Q) without any penalty since the boat able to protest him (NC) screwed 
up their protest. So NC gets disqualified (because of a
technicallity on her protest) and the most culpable boat in this scenario (Q) 
'skates' with no penalty!



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Re: Stus-List Racing rules question

[wwadjourn]

I believe you could have protested both boats.  Rule 60.1 allows a right to 
protest if your boat is involved in or saw the incident.  Assuming that you 
hailed but didn't go up to avoid a collision, and middle boat did likewise, I 
think a committee would find against third boat and exonerate the boat nearest 
you, which feels right.  Dave Perry's 100 Best Racing Rules Quizzes is great 
winter reading. 
I may be all wet. 
Bill Walker
Evening Star 
Pentwater, Mi.  

Sent from my HTC

- Reply message -
From: Wally Bryant via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Racing rules question
Date: Mon, Oct 20, 2014 3:19 PM

Hmm.  Sounds like a Mexican divorce.

you wrote:
 Unfortuntely, the 'real' culprit in this scenario
 escapes (Q) without any penalty since the boat able to protest him (NC) 
 screwed up their protest. So NC gets disqualified (because of a
 technicallity on her protest) and the most culpable boat in this scenario (Q) 
 'skates' with no penalty!


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Re: Stus-List Racing my MkV video

[Brent Driedger via CnC-List]

Great video Edd, I love sailing at night. Nice to see speed bring out the 
laughs. 

Brent
27-5
Lake Winnipeg. 

Sent from my iPhone

 On Sep 20, 2014, at 9:53 PM, Edd Schillay via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Great video, Brent. 
 
 We shot something similar on the Enterprise during some night racing. Here's 
 the link: http://youtu.be/2I69h6fwL1E
 
 Just saw several listers at the CC Rendezvous in Newport. Great bunch of 
 people. So happy we were able to spend some time with them, even though we 
 came by car. 
 
 
 All the best,
 
 Edd
 
 ---
 Edd M. Schillay
 Starship Enterprise
 NCC-1701-B
 CC 37+ | City Island, NY
 www.StarshipSailing.com
 ---
 914.332.4400  | Office
 914.774.9767  | Mobile
 ---
 Sent via iPhone 5
 iPhone. iTypos. iApologize
 
 
 On September 20, 2014 11:31:59 AM Brent Driedger via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Sailors seasonal depression is already kicking in and the boat is still in 
 the water! I put this together from the stern rail footage of our last race 
 of the season.
 This year my crew and I returned to white sails as a back to basics year. 
 Our goal was achieved with 2nd place for the season in a fleet of  7 boats. 
 Back to flying sails next year!
 https://vimeo.com/106679764
 
 Brent Driedger
 CC 27 MkV
 s/v Wild Rover
 Lake Winnipeg
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Re: Stus-List Racing my MkV video (now Lake Wabamun sailing)

[Marek Dziedzic via CnC-List]

David,

I know that Lake Wabamun (lived in Edmonton for 5 years); but I assumed that
despite the lake's size, you all must sail together. There is another CC
around him; when I think about it, I think it is a 27 (not 26).

Marek

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David
Donnelly via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 11:21 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing my MkV video (now Lake Wabamun sailing)

Marek I dont know him personally, and he has that boat on his own mooring
about mid-lake and is not affiliated with either yacht club. I was parked
next to him last year at crane out. If I see him this year I will definitely
say hi for you. We crane out on the 11th of October.

David Donnelly
CC 26 Mistress

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On September 20, 2014 8:32:23 PM Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com
wrote:

 David,

 I bet you sail with (or at least know) Gary (Meriachee) Hamilton, who 
 sails a Catalina 270 on the same lake. Say hi to him from me.

 Marek (in Ottawa)

 -Original Message-
 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of 
 David Donnelly via CnC-List
 Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 9:46 PM
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing my MkV video

 Mistress is now on Lake Wabamun which is about an hour drive west of 
 Edmonton. We are really happy with the boat so far.

 David

 Sent with AquaMail for Android
 http://www.aqua-mail.com


 On September 20, 2014 7:23:27 PM Brent Driedger 
 bren...@highspeedcrow.ca
 wrote:

  Thanks David. Where is Mistress now?
 
  Brent
 
 
  Sent from my iPhone
 
   On Sep 20, 2014, at 6:07 PM, David Donnelly via CnC-List
  cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
  
   Nice video Brent. Your crew looks effcient.
  
   Mistress has few 2nd and 3rd in the flying sails at Gimli in her past.
  Not racing anymore.
  
   Say high to Dale for me.
  
   David Donnelly
   CC 26 Mistress
  
   Sent with AquaMail for Android
   http://www.aqua-mail.com
  
  
   On September 20, 2014 11:31:59 AM Brent Driedger via CnC-List
  cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
  
   Sailors seasonal depression is already kicking in and the boat is 
   still
  in the water! I put this together from the stern rail footage of our 
  last race of the season.
   This year my crew and I returned to white sails as a back to 
   basics
  year. Our goal was achieved with 2nd place for the season in a fleet 
  of  7 boats. Back to flying sails next year!
   https://vimeo.com/106679764
  
   Brent Driedger
   CC 27 MkV
   s/v Wild Rover
   Lake Winnipeg
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Re: Stus-List Racing my MkV video

[David Donnelly via CnC-List]

Nice video Brent. Your crew looks effcient.

Mistress has few 2nd and 3rd in the flying sails at Gimli in her past. Not 
racing anymore.


Say high to Dale for me.

David Donnelly
CC 26 Mistress

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On September 20, 2014 11:31:59 AM Brent Driedger via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:


Sailors seasonal depression is already kicking in and the boat is still in 
the water! I put this together from the stern rail footage of our last race 
of the season.
This year my crew and I returned to white sails as a back to basics year. 
Our goal was achieved with 2nd place for the season in a fleet of  7 boats. 
Back to flying sails next year!

https://vimeo.com/106679764

Brent Driedger
CC 27 MkV
s/v Wild Rover
Lake Winnipeg
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Re: Stus-List Racing my MkV video

[Brent Driedger via CnC-List]

Thanks David. Where is Mistress now?

Brent


Sent from my iPhone

 On Sep 20, 2014, at 6:07 PM, David Donnelly via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Nice video Brent. Your crew looks effcient.
 
 Mistress has few 2nd and 3rd in the flying sails at Gimli in her past. Not 
 racing anymore.
 
 Say high to Dale for me.
 
 David Donnelly
 CC 26 Mistress
 
 Sent with AquaMail for Android
 http://www.aqua-mail.com
 
 
 On September 20, 2014 11:31:59 AM Brent Driedger via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Sailors seasonal depression is already kicking in and the boat is still in 
 the water! I put this together from the stern rail footage of our last race 
 of the season.
 This year my crew and I returned to white sails as a back to basics year. 
 Our goal was achieved with 2nd place for the season in a fleet of  7 boats. 
 Back to flying sails next year!
 https://vimeo.com/106679764
 
 Brent Driedger
 CC 27 MkV
 s/v Wild Rover
 Lake Winnipeg
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Re: Stus-List Racing my MkV video

[David Donnelly via CnC-List]

Mistress is now on Lake Wabamun which is about an hour drive west of 
Edmonton. We are really happy with the boat so far.


David

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On September 20, 2014 7:23:27 PM Brent Driedger bren...@highspeedcrow.ca 
wrote:



Thanks David. Where is Mistress now?

Brent


Sent from my iPhone

 On Sep 20, 2014, at 6:07 PM, David Donnelly via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:


 Nice video Brent. Your crew looks effcient.

 Mistress has few 2nd and 3rd in the flying sails at Gimli in her past. 
Not racing anymore.


 Say high to Dale for me.

 David Donnelly
 CC 26 Mistress

 Sent with AquaMail for Android
 http://www.aqua-mail.com


 On September 20, 2014 11:31:59 AM Brent Driedger via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:


 Sailors seasonal depression is already kicking in and the boat is still 
in the water! I put this together from the stern rail footage of our last 
race of the season.
 This year my crew and I returned to white sails as a back to basics 
year. Our goal was achieved with 2nd place for the season in a fleet of  7 
boats. Back to flying sails next year!

 https://vimeo.com/106679764

 Brent Driedger
 CC 27 MkV
 s/v Wild Rover
 Lake Winnipeg
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Re: Stus-List Racing my MkV video

[Brent Driedger via CnC-List]

I'll forward the message to Dale. He's been tearing ass in the Sonar class and 
doing very well. I think they won the Mb keelboat championships again this year 
on Lake of the Woods racing against two Antrim 27s, J80 and the T10 just to 
name a few. 

Cheers
Brent
s/v Wild Rover
Lake Winnipeg


Sent from my iPhone

 On Sep 20, 2014, at 8:45 PM, David Donnelly via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Mistress is now on Lake Wabamun which is about an hour drive west of 
 Edmonton. We are really happy with the boat so far.
 
 David
 
 Sent with AquaMail for Android
 http://www.aqua-mail.com
 
 
 On September 20, 2014 7:23:27 PM Brent Driedger bren...@highspeedcrow.ca 
 wrote:
 
 Thanks David. Where is Mistress now?
 
 Brent
 
 
 Sent from my iPhone
 
  On Sep 20, 2014, at 6:07 PM, David Donnelly via CnC-List 
  cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
  Nice video Brent. Your crew looks effcient.
 
  Mistress has few 2nd and 3rd in the flying sails at Gimli in her past. Not 
  racing anymore.
 
  Say high to Dale for me.
 
  David Donnelly
  CC 26 Mistress
 
  Sent with AquaMail for Android
  http://www.aqua-mail.com
 
 
  On September 20, 2014 11:31:59 AM Brent Driedger via CnC-List 
  cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
  Sailors seasonal depression is already kicking in and the boat is still 
  in the water! I put this together from the stern rail footage of our last 
  race of the season.
  This year my crew and I returned to white sails as a back to basics year. 
  Our goal was achieved with 2nd place for the season in a fleet of  7 
  boats. Back to flying sails next year!
  https://vimeo.com/106679764
 
  Brent Driedger
  CC 27 MkV
  s/v Wild Rover
  Lake Winnipeg
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Re: Stus-List Racing my MkV video

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

Great video, Brent. 

We shot something similar on the Enterprise during some night racing. Here's 
the link: http://youtu.be/2I69h6fwL1E

Just saw several listers at the CC Rendezvous in Newport. Great bunch of 
people. So happy we were able to spend some time with them, even though we came 
by car. 


All the best,

Edd

---
Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
NCC-1701-B
CC 37+ | City Island, NY
www.StarshipSailing.com
---
914.332.4400  | Office
914.774.9767  | Mobile
---
Sent via iPhone 5
iPhone. iTypos. iApologize


 On September 20, 2014 11:31:59 AM Brent Driedger via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Sailors seasonal depression is already kicking in and the boat is still in 
 the water! I put this together from the stern rail footage of our last race 
 of the season.
 This year my crew and I returned to white sails as a back to basics year. Our 
 goal was achieved with 2nd place for the season in a fleet of  7 boats. Back 
 to flying sails next year!
 https://vimeo.com/106679764
 
 Brent Driedger
 CC 27 MkV
 s/v Wild Rover
 Lake Winnipeg
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Re: Stus-List Racing my MkV video (now Lake Wabamun sailing)

[David Donnelly via CnC-List]

Marek I dont know him personally, and he has that boat on his own mooring 
about mid-lake and is not affiliated with either yacht club. I was parked 
next to him last year at crane out. If I see him this year I will 
definitely say hi for you. We crane out on the 11th of October.


David Donnelly
CC 26 Mistress

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On September 20, 2014 8:32:23 PM Marek Dziedzic dziedzi...@hotmail.com wrote:


David,

I bet you sail with (or at least know) Gary (Meriachee) Hamilton, who sails
a Catalina 270 on the same lake. Say hi to him from me.

Marek (in Ottawa)

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of David
Donnelly via CnC-List
Sent: Saturday, September 20, 2014 9:46 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing my MkV video

Mistress is now on Lake Wabamun which is about an hour drive west of
Edmonton. We are really happy with the boat so far.

David

Sent with AquaMail for Android
http://www.aqua-mail.com


On September 20, 2014 7:23:27 PM Brent Driedger bren...@highspeedcrow.ca
wrote:

 Thanks David. Where is Mistress now?

 Brent


 Sent from my iPhone

  On Sep 20, 2014, at 6:07 PM, David Donnelly via CnC-List
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
  Nice video Brent. Your crew looks effcient.
 
  Mistress has few 2nd and 3rd in the flying sails at Gimli in her past.
 Not racing anymore.
 
  Say high to Dale for me.
 
  David Donnelly
  CC 26 Mistress
 
  Sent with AquaMail for Android
  http://www.aqua-mail.com
 
 
  On September 20, 2014 11:31:59 AM Brent Driedger via CnC-List
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
  Sailors seasonal depression is already kicking in and the boat is
  still
 in the water! I put this together from the stern rail footage of our
 last race of the season.
  This year my crew and I returned to white sails as a back to basics
 year. Our goal was achieved with 2nd place for the season in a fleet
 of  7 boats. Back to flying sails next year!
  https://vimeo.com/106679764
 
  Brent Driedger
  CC 27 MkV
  s/v Wild Rover
  Lake Winnipeg
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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Don Newman via CnC-List]

Many years ago I raced in a Viking 28 fleet with a judge. He loved to make up 
complex rules on the fly.  He was always prepared to back off if anyone ever 
called him on it but no one ever did. 

Don Newman

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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[dwight via CnC-List]

Alan, you make it sound simple enough as does Andrew in quoting Rule 18.if
it were that simple my question then is; why did David say in his write up,
I did not know who had rights.  Probably the other boat did not know who had
rights either, yet Rule 18 is not that difficult to understand as it is
written on paper and your explanation is easy to understand
too.understanding of the written rule and application of the rule on the
water at mark roundings is, on the other hand, often a judgement call.not
having knowledge of the rules or how they apply on the water or maybe even
having that knowledge but pushing the limits of the rule can cause
unecessary collisions.like I said earlier the issue is not so crystal clear
to me from Davids recollection of what happened but it is troublesome that
he did not know who had rights and maybe the same could be said for the
other boat yet they were still out there sailing rather expensive vessels on
a possible collision course in close proximity to one another.we all know
that sailboats don't have very good brakes and they carry a lot of
momentum.it is very good however that one boat finally did give way and no
collision happened.racing rules can work but all sailors need to know and
understand how they apply in given situations and they need to obey the
rules or else they should take a break from racing and do some
study.knowledge of the rules at the start, at crossings on course and mark
roundings are particularly critical because that is where most collion
possibilities are encountered.  I do not know anything about David's racing
experience but I am hoping that this event and the discussion we have had
here will encourage him to study the rules so that he never has to say
again, I did not know who had rights, and I hope we all know that we must
take all possible action to avoid collision with another boat regardless of
who has rights according to the rules of racing

 

Dwight Veinot

CC 35MKII, Alianna

Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Alan
Bergen via CnC-List
Sent: August 20, 2014 2:31 AM
To: CC Photoalbum email list
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

 

Actually, you had an inside overlap.  There is no requirement for boats to
be in close proximity to one another for an overlap to exist.  You were
clear ahead until the other boat established an overlap to windward of you.
The only way for the other boat to have had rights would be if it became
clear ahead before either of you had entered the zone.  Since you both
entered the zone at around the same time, you had an inside overlap, and
rights at the mark.

 

Alan Bergen

35 Mk III Thirsty

Rose City YC

Portland, OR

 

I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an incident
that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a fun race, so no
yelling, but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts
approaching the windward mark and I was in a position where I was close
hauled, just making the mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger
boat was approaching the mark also on starboard tack but from a different
direction.  He had vastly over stood the mark due to the wind shift so he
was coming in on a reach and due to get there at the same time as me.  We
both entered the zone around the mark at about the same time although he was
going faster so it was hard to tell.  After several polite requests, he gave
me inside room.  Who has rights in that situation since there was never
really an overlap until we both got to the mark?  Thanks- Dave

Aries

1990 CC 34+

New London, CT


 
http://web.mail.comcast.net/service/home/%7E/?auth=coid=497637part=3.5.2.
2 

  _  

  _  

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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 4007/8059 - Release Date: 08/18/14

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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Indigo via CnC-List]

Agree. If you race - even in fun races you should know the rules - especially 
those that are designed to prevent expensive accidents.  On mark roundings I 
believe the hardest part is determining when and who entered the 3 boat length 
zone first and whether an overlap existed but even this gets easier if one 
remembers that if there is any doubt, it is assumed the inside boat was 
overlapped and thus has rights. 

Here is another rule quandary that happened at our club recently

RC sets up the line with the pin on its port side. Triangular course - 
clockwise - twice round.  Boats 1, 2  3 lead to the windward mark- remember 
the pin was to port at the start and round the windward mark to port - 
effectively turning through more than 360 degrees to head off on the reach to 
the next mark. Boat 4 remembers the taught string rule ( not crossing ones 
wake) and rounds to starboard. After the first mark, all boats round subsequent 
marks to starboard

What would the outcome be should it have gone to protest? 

--
Jonathan
Indigo CC 35III
SOUTHPORT CT

 On Aug 20, 2014, at 6:04, dwight via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Alan, you make it sound simple enough as does Andrew in quoting Rule 18…if it 
 were that simple my question then is; why did David say in his write up, I 
 did not know who had rights.  Probably the other boat did not know who had 
 rights either, yet Rule 18 is not that difficult to understand as it is 
 written on paper and your explanation is easy to understand too…understanding 
 of the written rule and application of the rule on the water at mark 
 roundings is, on the other hand, often a judgement call…not having knowledge 
 of the rules or how they apply on the water or maybe even having that 
 knowledge but pushing the limits of the rule can cause unecessary 
 collisions…like I said earlier the issue is not so crystal clear to me from 
 Davids recollection of what happened but it is troublesome that he did not 
 know who had rights and maybe the same could be said for the other boat yet 
 they were still out there sailing rather expensive vessels on a possible 
 collision course in close proximity to one another…we all know that sailboats 
 don’t have very good brakes and they carry a lot of momentum…it is very good 
 however that one boat finally did give way and no collision happened…racing 
 rules can work but all sailors need to know and understand how they apply in 
 given situations and they need to obey the rules or else they should take a 
 break from racing and do some study…knowledge of the rules at the start, at 
 crossings on course and mark roundings are particularly critical because that 
 is where most collion possibilities are encountered.  I do not know anything 
 about David’s racing experience but I am hoping that this event and the 
 discussion we have had here will encourage him to study the rules so that he 
 never has to say again, I did not know who had rights, and I hope we all know 
 that we must take all possible action to avoid collision with another boat 
 regardless of who has rights according to the rules of racing
  
 Dwight Veinot
 CC 35MKII, Alianna
 Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
  
 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Alan 
 Bergen via CnC-List
 Sent: August 20, 2014 2:31 AM
 To: CC Photoalbum email list
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks
  
 Actually, you had an inside overlap.  There is no requirement for boats to be 
 in close proximity to one another for an overlap to exist.  You were clear 
 ahead until the other boat established an overlap to windward of you.  The 
 only way for the other boat to have had rights would be if it became clear 
 ahead before either of you had entered the zone.  Since you both entered the 
 zone at around the same time, you had an inside overlap, and rights at the 
 mark.
  
 Alan Bergen
 35 Mk III Thirsty
 Rose City YC
 Portland, OR
  
 I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an incident 
 that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a “fun” race, so no 
 yelling, but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts 
 approaching the windward mark and I was in a position where I was close 
 hauled, just making the mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger boat 
 was approaching the mark also on starboard tack but from a different 
 direction.  He had vastly over stood the mark due to the wind shift so he was 
 coming in on a reach and due to get there at the same time as me.  We both 
 entered the zone around the mark at about the same time although he was going 
 faster so it was hard to tell.  After several polite requests, he gave me 
 inside room.  Who has rights in that situation since there was never really 
 an overlap until we both got to the mark?  Thanks- Dave
 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT
 
 
 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 4007

Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Rich Knowles via CnC-List]

Dumb and dangerous  course by the race comm. 

Rich

 On Aug 20, 2014, at 7:29, Indigo via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Agree. If you race - even in fun races you should know the rules - 
 especially those that are designed to prevent expensive accidents.  On mark 
 roundings I believe the hardest part is determining when and who entered the 
 3 boat length zone first and whether an overlap existed but even this gets 
 easier if one remembers that if there is any doubt, it is assumed the inside 
 boat was overlapped and thus has rights. 
 
 Here is another rule quandary that happened at our club recently
 
 RC sets up the line with the pin on its port side. Triangular course - 
 clockwise - twice round.  Boats 1, 2  3 lead to the windward mark- remember 
 the pin was to port at the start and round the windward mark to port - 
 effectively turning through more than 360 degrees to head off on the reach to 
 the next mark. Boat 4 remembers the taught string rule ( not crossing ones 
 wake) and rounds to starboard. After the first mark, all boats round 
 subsequent marks to starboard
 
 What would the outcome be should it have gone to protest? 
 
 --
 Jonathan
 Indigo CC 35III
 SOUTHPORT CT
 
 On Aug 20, 2014, at 6:04, dwight via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Alan, you make it sound simple enough as does Andrew in quoting Rule 18…if 
 it were that simple my question then is; why did David say in his write up, 
 I did not know who had rights.  Probably the other boat did not know who had 
 rights either, yet Rule 18 is not that difficult to understand as it is 
 written on paper and your explanation is easy to understand 
 too…understanding of the written rule and application of the rule on the 
 water at mark roundings is, on the other hand, often a judgement call…not 
 having knowledge of the rules or how they apply on the water or maybe even 
 having that knowledge but pushing the limits of the rule can cause 
 unecessary collisions…like I said earlier the issue is not so crystal clear 
 to me from Davids recollection of what happened but it is troublesome that 
 he did not know who had rights and maybe the same could be said for the 
 other boat yet they were still out there sailing rather expensive vessels on 
 a possible collision course in close proximity to one another…we all know 
 that sailboats don’t have very good brakes and they carry a lot of 
 momentum…it is very good however that one boat finally did give way and no 
 collision happened…racing rules can work but all sailors need to know and 
 understand how they apply in given situations and they need to obey the 
 rules or else they should take a break from racing and do some 
 study…knowledge of the rules at the start, at crossings on course and mark 
 roundings are particularly critical because that is where most collion 
 possibilities are encountered.  I do not know anything about David’s racing 
 experience but I am hoping that this event and the discussion we have had 
 here will encourage him to study the rules so that he never has to say 
 again, I did not know who had rights, and I hope we all know that we must 
 take all possible action to avoid collision with another boat regardless of 
 who has rights according to the rules of racing
  
 Dwight Veinot
 CC 35MKII, Alianna
 Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
  
 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Alan 
 Bergen via CnC-List
 Sent: August 20, 2014 2:31 AM
 To: CC Photoalbum email list
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks
  
 Actually, you had an inside overlap.  There is no requirement for boats to 
 be in close proximity to one another for an overlap to exist.  You were 
 clear ahead until the other boat established an overlap to windward of you.  
 The only way for the other boat to have had rights would be if it became 
 clear ahead before either of you had entered the zone.  Since you both 
 entered the zone at around the same time, you had an inside overlap, and 
 rights at the mark.
  
 Alan Bergen
 35 Mk III Thirsty
 Rose City YC
 Portland, OR
  
 I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an incident 
 that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a “fun” race, so no 
 yelling, but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts 
 approaching the windward mark and I was in a position where I was close 
 hauled, just making the mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger 
 boat was approaching the mark also on starboard tack but from a different 
 direction.  He had vastly over stood the mark due to the wind shift so he 
 was coming in on a reach and due to get there at the same time as me.  We 
 both entered the zone around the mark at about the same time although he was 
 going faster so it was hard to tell.  After several polite requests, he gave 
 me inside room.  Who has rights in that situation since there was never 
 really an overlap until we both got to the mark?  Thanks

Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

I think the race should have been invalid. The RC screwed up. And I can't 
imagine the carnage in rounding the mark to port and then trying to get past 
all the boats approaching it!

Andy
CC 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI 
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

 On Aug 20, 2014, at 6:29, Indigo via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Agree. If you race - even in fun races you should know the rules - 
 especially those that are designed to prevent expensive accidents.  On mark 
 roundings I believe the hardest part is determining when and who entered the 
 3 boat length zone first and whether an overlap existed but even this gets 
 easier if one remembers that if there is any doubt, it is assumed the inside 
 boat was overlapped and thus has rights. 
 
 Here is another rule quandary that happened at our club recently
 
 RC sets up the line with the pin on its port side. Triangular course - 
 clockwise - twice round.  Boats 1, 2  3 lead to the windward mark- remember 
 the pin was to port at the start and round the windward mark to port - 
 effectively turning through more than 360 degrees to head off on the reach to 
 the next mark. Boat 4 remembers the taught string rule ( not crossing ones 
 wake) and rounds to starboard. After the first mark, all boats round 
 subsequent marks to starboard
 
 What would the outcome be should it have gone to protest? 
 
 --
 Jonathan
 Indigo CC 35III
 SOUTHPORT CT
 
 On Aug 20, 2014, at 6:04, dwight via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 
 Alan, you make it sound simple enough as does Andrew in quoting Rule 18…if 
 it were that simple my question then is; why did David say in his write up, 
 I did not know who had rights.  Probably the other boat did not know who had 
 rights either, yet Rule 18 is not that difficult to understand as it is 
 written on paper and your explanation is easy to understand 
 too…understanding of the written rule and application of the rule on the 
 water at mark roundings is, on the other hand, often a judgement call…not 
 having knowledge of the rules or how they apply on the water or maybe even 
 having that knowledge but pushing the limits of the rule can cause 
 unecessary collisions…like I said earlier the issue is not so crystal clear 
 to me from Davids recollection of what happened but it is troublesome that 
 he did not know who had rights and maybe the same could be said for the 
 other boat yet they were still out there sailing rather expensive vessels on 
 a possible collision course in close proximity to one another…we all know 
 that sailboats don’t have very good brakes and they carry a lot of 
 momentum…it is very good however that one boat finally did give way and no 
 collision happened…racing rules can work but all sailors need to know and 
 understand how they apply in given situations and they need to obey the 
 rules or else they should take a break from racing and do some 
 study…knowledge of the rules at the start, at crossings on course and mark 
 roundings are particularly critical because that is where most collion 
 possibilities are encountered.  I do not know anything about David’s racing 
 experience but I am hoping that this event and the discussion we have had 
 here will encourage him to study the rules so that he never has to say 
 again, I did not know who had rights, and I hope we all know that we must 
 take all possible action to avoid collision with another boat regardless of 
 who has rights according to the rules of racing
  
 Dwight Veinot
 CC 35MKII, Alianna
 Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
  
 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Alan 
 Bergen via CnC-List
 Sent: August 20, 2014 2:31 AM
 To: CC Photoalbum email list
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks
  
 Actually, you had an inside overlap.  There is no requirement for boats to 
 be in close proximity to one another for an overlap to exist.  You were 
 clear ahead until the other boat established an overlap to windward of you.  
 The only way for the other boat to have had rights would be if it became 
 clear ahead before either of you had entered the zone.  Since you both 
 entered the zone at around the same time, you had an inside overlap, and 
 rights at the mark.
  
 Alan Bergen
 35 Mk III Thirsty
 Rose City YC
 Portland, OR
  
 I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an incident 
 that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a “fun” race, so no 
 yelling, but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts 
 approaching the windward mark and I was in a position where I was close 
 hauled, just making the mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger 
 boat was approaching the mark also on starboard tack but from a different 
 direction.  He had vastly over stood the mark due to the wind shift so he 
 was coming in on a reach and due to get there at the same time as me.  We 
 both

Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

 don’t have very good brakes and they carry a lot of 
 momentum…it is very good however that one boat finally did give way and no 
 collision happened…racing rules can work but all sailors need to know and 
 understand how they apply in given situations and they need to obey the 
 rules or else they should take a break from racing and do some 
 study…knowledge of the rules at the start, at crossings on course and mark 
 roundings are particularly critical because that is where most collion 
 possibilities are encountered.  I do not know anything about David’s racing 
 experience but I am hoping that this event and the discussion we have had 
 here will encourage him to study the rules so that he never has to say 
 again, I did not know who had rights, and I hope we all know that we must 
 take all possible action to avoid collision with another boat regardless of 
 who has rights according to the rules of racing
  
 Dwight Veinot
 CC 35MKII, Alianna
 Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
  
 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Alan 
 Bergen via CnC-List
 Sent: August 20, 2014 2:31 AM
 To: CC Photoalbum email list
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks
  
 Actually, you had an inside overlap.  There is no requirement for boats to 
 be in close proximity to one another for an overlap to exist.  You were 
 clear ahead until the other boat established an overlap to windward of you. 
  The only way for the other boat to have had rights would be if it became 
 clear ahead before either of you had entered the zone.  Since you both 
 entered the zone at around the same time, you had an inside overlap, and 
 rights at the mark.
  
 Alan Bergen
 35 Mk III Thirsty
 Rose City YC
 Portland, OR
  
 I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an 
 incident that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a “fun” race, 
 so no yelling, but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts 
 approaching the windward mark and I was in a position where I was close 
 hauled, just making the mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger 
 boat was approaching the mark also on starboard tack but from a different 
 direction.  He had vastly over stood the mark due to the wind shift so he 
 was coming in on a reach and due to get there at the same time as me.  We 
 both entered the zone around the mark at about the same time although he 
 was going faster so it was hard to tell.  After several polite requests, he 
 gave me inside room.  Who has rights in that situation since there was 
 never really an overlap until we both got to the mark?  Thanks- Dave
 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT
 
 
 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 4007/8059 - Release Date: 08/18/14
 ___
 This List is provided by the CC Photo Album
 
 Email address:
 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of 
 page at:
 http://cnc-list.com/mailman/listinfo/cnc-list_cnc-list.com
 
 ___
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 CnC-List@cnc-list.com
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 page at:
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 ___
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 at:
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Dr. David Knecht
Professor of Molecular and Cell Biology
Core Microscopy Facility Director
University of Connecticut   
Storrs, CT 06269
860-486-2200

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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Rick Brass via CnC-List]

Colregs rule 2b takes precedence over the racing rules of sailing in all cases, 
you must take action to avoid a collision even if it means violating the rules. 
It's the same rule for you Canadian guys, too.

That doesn't mean I've not pushed the racing rules a time or two. I've even 
been so crass as to use the unwritten tonnage rule a few times to gain an 
advantage. (Tonnage Rules. And there is nothing like a 38 foot boat with 79 
pounds of steel out on the bow rollers to make a guy in a San Juan 21 show a 
little respect.) but I try to know the RRS and what it says in the NOR and SIs 
before I go out, even for fun races.

Jonathon, the RC screwed up in the SIs or NOR, and the roundings should have 
been specified. Since they were not, I see three possible outcomes: 1) throw 
out the race, 2) boats 1, 2,  3 get redress, or 3) everyone else gets DNF. #1 
seems the most equitable.

Rick Brass 

Sent from my iPad

On Aug 20, 2014, at 6:04, dwight via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
…not having knowledge of the rules or how they apply on the water or maybe even 
having that knowledge but pushing the limits of the rule can cause unnecessary 
collisions…___
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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[dwight via CnC-List]

Agreed here

 

Dwight Veinot

CC 35MKII, Alianna

Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS

 

  _  

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Rick
Brass via CnC-List
Sent: August 20, 2014 12:29 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

 

Colregs rule 2b takes precedence over the racing rules of sailing in all
cases, you must take action to avoid a collision even if it means violating
the rules. It's the same rule for you Canadian guys, too.

 

That doesn't mean I've not pushed the racing rules a time or two. I've even
been so crass as to use the unwritten tonnage rule a few times to gain an
advantage. (Tonnage Rules. And there is nothing like a 38 foot boat with 79
pounds of steel out on the bow rollers to make a guy in a San Juan 21 show a
little respect.) but I try to know the RRS and what it says in the NOR and
SIs before I go out, even for fun races.

 

Jonathon, the RC screwed up in the SIs or NOR, and the roundings should have
been specified. Since they were not, I see three possible outcomes: 1) throw
out the race, 2) boats 1, 2,  3 get redress, or 3) everyone else gets DNF.
#1 seems the most equitable.

 

Rick Brass 

Sent from my iPad


On Aug 20, 2014, at 6:04, dwight via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
.not having knowledge of the rules or how they apply on the water or maybe
even having that knowledge but pushing the limits of the rule can cause
unnecessary collisions.

  _  

No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 4007/8059 - Release Date: 08/18/14

___
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Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an incident 
that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a “fun” race, so no yelling, 
but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts approaching the 
windward mark and I was in a position where I was close hauled, just making the 
mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger boat was approaching the mark 
also on starboard tack but from a different direction.  He had vastly over 
stood the mark due to the wind shift so he was coming in on a reach and due to 
get there at the same time as me.  We both entered the zone around the mark at 
about the same time although he was going faster so it was hard to tell.  After 
several polite requests, he gave me inside room.  Who has rights in that 
situation since there was never really an overlap until we both got to the 
mark?  Thanks- Dave

Aries
1990 CC 34+
New London, CT



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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Edd Schillay via CnC-List]

David,

If you both entered the zone at the same time, you are entitled to mark 
room. Furthermore, you were the leeward boat. So, raise that red flag and bitch 
slap him in the protest room. Oh, you said it was a fun race? In that case, 
raise the flag and politely demonstrate your right-of-way position. 

Seriously, the only way you’d be in the wrong is if you collided and 
there was any way in which you could have avoided the collision. 


All the best,

Edd


Edd M. Schillay
Starship Enterprise
CC 37+ | Sail No: NCC-1701-B
City Island, NY 
Starship Enterprise's Captain's Log

On Aug 19, 2014, at 4:58 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
wrote:

 I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an incident 
 that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a “fun” race, so no 
 yelling, but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts 
 approaching the windward mark and I was in a position where I was close 
 hauled, just making the mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger boat 
 was approaching the mark also on starboard tack but from a different 
 direction.  He had vastly over stood the mark due to the wind shift so he was 
 coming in on a reach and due to get there at the same time as me.  We both 
 entered the zone around the mark at about the same time although he was going 
 faster so it was hard to tell.  After several polite requests, he gave me 
 inside room.  Who has rights in that situation since there was never really 
 an overlap until we both got to the mark?  Thanks- Dave
 
 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT
 
 pastedGraphic.tiff
 
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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

18.1 When Rule 18 Applies
Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a
mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone.

18.2 Giving Mark-Room
(a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the
inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies.
(b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone,
the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside
boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the
zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give
her mark-room.
(c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b),
(1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is
broken or a new overlap begins;




On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:58 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an
 incident that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a “fun” race,
 so no yelling, but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts
 approaching the windward mark and I was in a position where I was close
 hauled, just making the mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger
 boat was approaching the mark also on starboard tack but from a different
 direction.  He had vastly over stood the mark due to the wind shift so he
 was coming in on a reach and due to get there at the same time as me.  We
 both entered the zone around the mark at about the same time although he
 was going faster so it was hard to tell.  After several polite requests, he
 gave me inside room.  Who has rights in that situation since there was
 never really an overlap until we both got to the mark?  Thanks- Dave

  Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT



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-- 
Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett Ave
Newport, RI
USA 02840
http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
phone  +401 965 5260
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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Dennis C. via CnC-List]

Like Edd said, you had rights as the leeward boat and, as leeward boat
entering the two boat length circle, you carried those rights into the
circle.

I would place less emphasis on rights as inside boat unless you are
ABSOLUTELY positive you were laying the mark.  Consider this, a boat
approaching the mark is claiming they are inside boat but they aren't
laying the mark.  They could claim they were laying the mark and were
inside boat and a windward boat did not grant them room to round so that
they were forced past the mark by the windward boat.  I've never been
involved in such a situation but it could happen.  The demonstration of
inside boat is when it actually lays and rounds the mark.

Dennis C.
Touche' 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 3:58 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an
 incident that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a “fun” race,
 so no yelling, but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts
 approaching the windward mark and I was in a position where I was close
 hauled, just making the mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger
 boat was approaching the mark also on starboard tack but from a different
 direction.  He had vastly over stood the mark due to the wind shift so he
 was coming in on a reach and due to get there at the same time as me.  We
 both entered the zone around the mark at about the same time although he
 was going faster so it was hard to tell.  After several polite requests, he
 gave me inside room.  Who has rights in that situation since there was
 never really an overlap until we both got to the mark?  Thanks- Dave

 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT



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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[John Pennie via CnC-List]

That’s an interesting comment.  My initial reaction was the leeward boat 
argument was the stronger hand but you’re absolutely right.  In any event… 
bitch slap him.

John

On Aug 19, 2014, at 5:35 PM, Dennis C. via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
wrote:

 Like Edd said, you had rights as the leeward boat and, as leeward boat 
 entering the two boat length circle, you carried those rights into the 
 circle.  
 
 I would place less emphasis on rights as inside boat unless you are 
 ABSOLUTELY positive you were laying the mark.  Consider this, a boat 
 approaching the mark is claiming they are inside boat but they aren't laying 
 the mark.  They could claim they were laying the mark and were inside boat 
 and a windward boat did not grant them room to round so that they were forced 
 past the mark by the windward boat.  I've never been involved in such a 
 situation but it could happen.  The demonstration of inside boat is when it 
 actually lays and rounds the mark.
 
 Dennis C.
 Touche' 35-1 #83
 Mandeville, LA
 
 
 On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 3:58 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an incident 
 that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a “fun” race, so no 
 yelling, but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts 
 approaching the windward mark and I was in a position where I was close 
 hauled, just making the mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger boat 
 was approaching the mark also on starboard tack but from a different 
 direction.  He had vastly over stood the mark due to the wind shift so he was 
 coming in on a reach and due to get there at the same time as me.  We both 
 entered the zone around the mark at about the same time although he was going 
 faster so it was hard to tell.  After several polite requests, he gave me 
 inside room.  Who has rights in that situation since there was never really 
 an overlap until we both got to the mark?  Thanks- Dave
 
 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT
 
 pastedGraphic.tiff
 
 
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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[David Knecht via CnC-List]

I was worried about the definition of overlap in this rule.  Since we were 
effectively 90 degrees to each other, I did not know how you would define 
“overlap”.  If you project an orthogonal line outward from the bow and stern, 
they would not intersect the other boat.  Also, Dennis, I did lay the mark.  
Dave

On Aug 19, 2014, at 5:30 PM, Andrew Burton a.burton.sai...@gmail.com wrote:

 18.1 When Rule 18 Applies 
 Rule 18 applies between boats when they are required to leave a 
 mark on the same side and at least one of them is in the zone. 
 
 18.2 Giving Mark-Room 
 (a) When boats are overlapped the outside boat shall give the 
 inside boat mark-room, unless rule 18.2(b) applies. 
 (b) If boats are overlapped when the first of them reaches the zone, 
 the outside boat at that moment shall thereafter give the inside 
 boat mark-room. If a boat is clear ahead when she reaches the 
 zone, the boat clear astern at that moment shall thereafter give 
 her mark-room. 
 (c) When a boat is required to give mark-room by rule 18.2(b), 
 (1) she shall continue to do so even if later an overlap is 
 broken or a new overlap begins; 
  
 
 
 
 On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 4:58 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an incident 
 that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a “fun” race, so no 
 yelling, but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts 
 approaching the windward mark and I was in a position where I was close 
 hauled, just making the mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger boat 
 was approaching the mark also on starboard tack but from a different 
 direction.  He had vastly over stood the mark due to the wind shift so he was 
 coming in on a reach and due to get there at the same time as me.  We both 
 entered the zone around the mark at about the same time although he was going 
 faster so it was hard to tell.  After several polite requests, he gave me 
 inside room.  Who has rights in that situation since there was never really 
 an overlap until we both got to the mark?  Thanks- Dave
 
 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT
 
 pastedGraphic.tiff
 
 
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 To change your list preferences, including unsubscribing -- go bottom of page 
 at:
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 -- 
 Andrew Burton
 61 W Narragansett Ave
 Newport, RI
 USA 02840
 http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
 phone  +401 965 5260

Dr. David Knecht
Professor of Molecular and Cell Biology
Core Microscopy Facility Director
University of Connecticut   
Storrs, CT 06269
860-486-2200

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Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Kim Brown via CnC-List]

David
Agreed you are entitled to room- at least enough for a seamanlike
rounding - Another way to look at it is that you had an overlap -
probably well outside of the zone. Draw a line perpendicular across his
stern and your whole boat was likely in front because of the very different
angles his boat was sailing. 
Kim Brown
TrustMe!!! 35-3



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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Tim Goodyear via CnC-List]

David,

I agree with Kim - look up the definition of overlap.  If he was bearing
down on you on the same tack the line through his stern, perpendicular to
the centerline of *his* boat should be behind your stern, and likewise a
line through your stern perpendicular to *your* centerline would be behind
his stern - very much overlapped.

Tim
Mojito 35-3


On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 5:51 PM, Kim Brown via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:

 David
 Agreed you are entitled to room- at least enough for a seamanlike
 rounding - Another way to look at it is that you had an overlap -
 probably well outside of the zone. Draw a line perpendicular across his
 stern and your whole boat was likely in front because of the very different
 angles his boat was sailing.
 Kim Brown
 TrustMe!!! 35-3



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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[dwight via CnC-List]

You guys seem to know your racing rules well... before I could fairly judge
that situation I would like to see a diagram showing the mark and the 2
boats relative to each other and I would also like to hear the story from
the other boat...I wonder if each of you would draw the same diagram

Dwight Veinot
CC 35MKII, Alianna
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS
 
-Original Message-
From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Kim Brown
via CnC-List
Sent: August 19, 2014 6:52 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

David
Agreed you are entitled to room- at least enough for a seamanlike
rounding - Another way to look at it is that you had an overlap -
probably well outside of the zone. Draw a line perpendicular across his
stern and your whole boat was likely in front because of the very different
angles his boat was sailing. 
Kim Brown
TrustMe!!! 35-3



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-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 4007/8059 - Release Date: 08/18/14


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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Tim Goodyear via CnC-List]

Not much question here Dwight:

if the other boat was sailing a lower course to the mark there was overlap
unless the other boat was clear ahead
if the other boat was sailing faster and there was any concern about
overlap at the mark then the boats were overlapped at the circle or David
was clear ahead
David was laying the mark

Tim



On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 6:15 PM, dwight via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
wrote:

 You guys seem to know your racing rules well... before I could fairly judge
 that situation I would like to see a diagram showing the mark and the 2
 boats relative to each other and I would also like to hear the story from
 the other boat...I wonder if each of you would draw the same diagram

 Dwight Veinot
 CC 35MKII, Alianna
 Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS

 -Original Message-
 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Kim
 Brown
 via CnC-List
 Sent: August 19, 2014 6:52 PM
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Subject: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

 David
 Agreed you are entitled to room- at least enough for a seamanlike
 rounding - Another way to look at it is that you had an overlap -
 probably well outside of the zone. Draw a line perpendicular across his
 stern and your whole boat was likely in front because of the very different
 angles his boat was sailing.
 Kim Brown
 TrustMe!!! 35-3



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 -
 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 4007/8059 - Release Date: 08/18/14


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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Josh Muckley via CnC-List]

All the drawings in the world and it would most likely still be a he said
she said.  In that case, the race judges will default to less arbitrary
facts than who was in the zone at what time and whether or not they were
overlapped.  As Edd said, close hulled AND windward.  It is hard to
misinterpret those facts.

Now whether or not it is worth the fight is a whole other story.  Maybe
they will be in a position to give you a little leeway on the next leg.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD
On Aug 19, 2014 6:15 PM, dwight via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com
wrote:

 You guys seem to know your racing rules well... before I could fairly judge
 that situation I would like to see a diagram showing the mark and the 2
 boats relative to each other and I would also like to hear the story from
 the other boat...I wonder if each of you would draw the same diagram

 Dwight Veinot
 CC 35MKII, Alianna
 Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS

 -Original Message-
 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Kim
 Brown
 via CnC-List
 Sent: August 19, 2014 6:52 PM
 To: cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Subject: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

 David
 Agreed you are entitled to room- at least enough for a seamanlike
 rounding - Another way to look at it is that you had an overlap -
 probably well outside of the zone. Draw a line perpendicular across his
 stern and your whole boat was likely in front because of the very different
 angles his boat was sailing.
 Kim Brown
 TrustMe!!! 35-3



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 -
 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 2014.0.4716 / Virus Database: 4007/8059 - Release Date: 08/18/14


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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

 Now whether or not it is worth the fight is a whole other story.  Maybe they 
 will be in a position to give you a little leeway on the next leg.

At a mark rounding I once told a Melges 32 helmsman he would need a liferaft 
before a protest flag if he stuck his nose in there.

With mixed fleets of RV class heavy displacement boats (like Calypso) along 
with lightweight sporty boats the mark roundings can get exciting.

Martin
Calypso
1971 CC 43
Seattle

[Description: cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F]

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Josh Muckley 
via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 3:25 PM
To: dwight; CC List
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks


All the drawings in the world and it would most likely still be a he said she 
said.  In that case, the race judges will default to less arbitrary facts than 
who was in the zone at what time and whether or not they were overlapped.  As 
Edd said, close hulled AND windward.  It is hard to misinterpret those facts.

Now whether or not it is worth the fight is a whole other story.  Maybe they 
will be in a position to give you a little leeway on the next leg.

Josh Muckley
S/V Sea Hawk
1989 CC 37+
Solomons, MD
On Aug 19, 2014 6:15 PM, dwight via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
You guys seem to know your racing rules well... before I could fairly judge
that situation I would like to see a diagram showing the mark and the 2
boats relative to each other and I would also like to hear the story from
the other boat...I wonder if each of you would draw the same diagram

Dwight Veinot
CC 35MKII, Alianna
Head of St. Margaret's Bay, NS

-Original Message-
From: CnC-List 
[mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On 
Behalf Of Kim Brown
via CnC-List
Sent: August 19, 2014 6:52 PM
To: cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

David
Agreed you are entitled to room- at least enough for a seamanlike
rounding - Another way to look at it is that you had an overlap -
probably well outside of the zone. Draw a line perpendicular across his
stern and your whole boat was likely in front because of the very different
angles his boat was sailing.
Kim Brown
TrustMe!!! 35-3
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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Rick Taillieu via CnC-List]

Try having two clubs use the same government buoy as a mark with one fleet
rounding to stbd and the other rounding to port.

It definitely makes things interesting.

 

Rick Taillieu

Nemesis

'75 CC 25  #371

Shearwater Yacht Club

Halifax, NS.

 

 

 

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Martin
DeYoung via CnC-List
Sent: August-19-14 19:41
To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

 

 Now whether or not it is worth the fight is a whole other story.  Maybe
they will be in a position to give you a little leeway on the next leg.

 

At a mark rounding I once told a Melges 32 helmsman he would need a liferaft
before a protest flag if he stuck his nose in there.

 

With mixed fleets of RV class heavy displacement boats (like Calypso) along
with lightweight sporty boats the mark roundings can get exciting.

 

Martin

Calypso

1971 CC 43

Seattle


Description: cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F

 

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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

If you're inside and not laying the mark you can head up--as long as you don't 
go past head-to-wind and still be entitled to room.

Sailing in a 30-boat one design fleet will expose you to pretty much all these 
situations!

Andy
CC 40
Peregrine

Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI 
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

 On Aug 19, 2014, at 17:35, Dennis C. via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 wrote:
 
 Like Edd said, you had rights as the leeward boat and, as leeward boat 
 entering the two boat length circle, you carried those rights into the 
 circle.  
 
 I would place less emphasis on rights as inside boat unless you are 
 ABSOLUTELY positive you were laying the mark.  Consider this, a boat 
 approaching the mark is claiming they are inside boat but they aren't laying 
 the mark.  They could claim they were laying the mark and were inside boat 
 and a windward boat did not grant them room to round so that they were forced 
 past the mark by the windward boat.  I've never been involved in such a 
 situation but it could happen.  The demonstration of inside boat is when it 
 actually lays and rounds the mark.
 
 Dennis C.
 Touche' 35-1 #83
 Mandeville, LA
 
 
 On Tue, Aug 19, 2014 at 3:58 PM, David Knecht via CnC-List 
 cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
 I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an incident 
 that I was involved in last weekend.  The race was a “fun” race, so no 
 yelling, but I did not know who had rights.  We had huge wind shifts 
 approaching the windward mark and I was in a position where I was close 
 hauled, just making the mark (to port) on starboard tack.  A much larger 
 boat was approaching the mark also on starboard tack but from a different 
 direction.  He had vastly over stood the mark due to the wind shift so he 
 was coming in on a reach and due to get there at the same time as me.  We 
 both entered the zone around the mark at about the same time although he was 
 going faster so it was hard to tell.  After several polite requests, he gave 
 me inside room.  Who has rights in that situation since there was never 
 really an overlap until we both got to the mark?  Thanks- Dave
 
 Aries
 1990 CC 34+
 New London, CT
 
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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Andrew Burton via CnC-List]

Had that happen earlier this summer. As you say, interesting and a trifle 
loud, too!


Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI 
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

 On Aug 19, 2014, at 19:21, Rick Taillieu via CnC-List cnc-list@cnc-list.com 
 wrote:
 
 Try having two clubs use the same government buoy as a mark with one fleet 
 rounding to stbd and the other rounding to port.
 It definitely makes things interesting.
  
 Rick Taillieu
 Nemesis
 '75 CC 25  #371
 Shearwater Yacht Club
 Halifax, NS.
  
  
  
 From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Martin 
 DeYoung via CnC-List
 Sent: August-19-14 19:41
 To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
 Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks
  
  Now whether or not it is worth the fight is a whole other story.  Maybe 
  they will be in a position to give you a little leeway on the next leg.
  
 At a mark rounding I once told a Melges 32 helmsman he would need a liferaft 
 before a protest flag if he stuck his nose in there.
  
 With mixed fleets of RV class heavy displacement boats (like Calypso) along 
 with lightweight sporty boats the mark roundings can get exciting.
  
 Martin
 Calypso
 1971 CC 43
 Seattle
 
 image001.png
  
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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Martin DeYoung via CnC-List]

The Sloop Tavern Yacht Club puts on a race named “The Three Buoy Fiasco”.   The 
race uses a reverse order start; you can start/finish in either direction, and 
can round the marks in any order or direction.

The options regarding wind and tide lead to entertaining strategies.  Last year 
Calypso and Carmanah, (CC 43 hull # 1 and 2) started at the same time in 
opposite directions and rounded one of the marks close together in opposite 
directions.  Carmanah’s strategy was a little better than ours as the finished 
ahead.  IIRC the difference was a few extra miles exposed to adverse current as 
the wind went light.

Martin
Calypso
1971 CC 43
Seattle

[Description: cid:D1BF9853-22F7-47FB-86F2-4115CE0BAF2F]

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Andrew 
Burton via CnC-List
Sent: Tuesday, August 19, 2014 5:16 PM
To: Rick Taillieu; cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

Had that happen earlier this summer. As you say, interesting and a trifle 
loud, too!


Andrew Burton
61 W Narragansett
Newport, RI
USA02840

http://sites.google.com/site/andrewburtonyachtservices/
+401 965-5260

On Aug 19, 2014, at 19:21, Rick Taillieu via CnC-List 
cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com wrote:
Try having two clubs use the same government buoy as a mark with one fleet 
rounding to stbd and the other rounding to port.
It definitely makes things interesting.

Rick Taillieu
Nemesis
'75 CC 25  #371
Shearwater Yacht Club
Halifax, NS.

From: CnC-List [mailto:cnc-list-boun...@cnc-list.com] On Behalf Of Martin 
DeYoung via CnC-List
Sent: August-19-14 19:41
To: Josh Muckley; cnc-list@cnc-list.commailto:cnc-list@cnc-list.com
Subject: Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

 Now whether or not it is worth the fight is a whole other story.  Maybe they 
 will be in a position to give you a little leeway on the next leg.

At a mark rounding I once told a Melges 32 helmsman he would need a liferaft 
before a protest flag if he stuck his nose in there.

With mixed fleets of RV class heavy displacement boats (like Calypso) along 
with lightweight sporty boats the mark roundings can get exciting.

Martin
Calypso
1971 CC 43
Seattle
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Re: Stus-List Racing rules at marks

[Alan Bergen via CnC-List]

Actually, you had an inside overlap. There is no requirement for boats to be in 
close proximity to one another for an overlap to exist. You were clear ahead 
until the other boat established an overlap to windward of you. The only way 
for the other boat to have had rights would be if it became clear ahead before 
either of you had entered the zone. Since you both entered the zone at around 
the same time, you had an inside overlap, and rights at the mark. 

Alan Bergen 
35 Mk III Thirsty 
Rose City YC 
Portland, OR 

I am hoping that someone can clarify the actual rules related to an incident 
that I was involved in last weekend. The race was a “fun” race, so no yelling, 
but I did not know who had rights. We had huge wind shifts approaching the 
windward mark and I was in a position where I was close hauled, just making the 
mark (to port) on starboard tack. A much larger boat was approaching the mark 
also on starboard tack but from a different direction. He had vastly over stood 
the mark due to the wind shift so he was coming in on a reach and due to get 
there at the same time as me. We both entered the zone around the mark at about 
the same time although he was going faster so it was hard to tell. After 
several polite requests, he gave me inside room. Who has rights in that 
situation since there was never really an overlap until we both got to the 
mark? Thanks- Dave 
Aries 
1990 CC 34+ 
New London, CT 

- Original Message -
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Stus-List Racing sail inventory - thoughts

[Dennis C.]

Sitting on the pier, sunny, mid 70's, debating whether to go for a sail.  In 
the meantime, some thoughts on racing sails given the recent 34 sail 
discussion. 

When I bought Touché the #1 was a 170, #2 a 155, #3 a 125.  The 170 carried a 3 
second hit. After a distance race where we flew the chute 3/4 of the race, I 
ditched the 170 and the penalty. 

OK,   What's on Touché now?  We run a 3 headsail (kinda) program.  Our #1 is a 
Mylar/Kevlar 155 which we carry to 10-12 true. Next is the AP1 which is an old 
155 which has had a few inches cut out of the leech. We use it to 15-16 true. 
Next is the #2, a 125.  We carry it from 13-17 true. The #3 is a 95% blade 
which we throw up around 17 true.   What? That's 4 sails!  We rarely put the #1 
and the AP1 on the boat at the same time. 

Now, having said all that, what would I rather have given more racing 
experience?  Well, here's what I feel is an optimum inventory for Touché.

#1 light 155 good to 10-12 true
#1+ heavy 150 or 145 good to 15-17 true
#3 95-110 blade. 

A racing friend once told me you never change down to the #2.  You always drop 
to the blade.  You know, I think he's right about 95% of the time .  Hence my 
inventory above. No true #2. 

Maybe I'll go for a sail now. :)

Dennis C.
Touché 35-1 #83
Mandeville, LA

Sent from my iPhone
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Re: Stus-List Racing sail inventory - thoughts

[Joel Aronson]

Dennis,

I race on a J30.  It is the only boat in the fleet that carries a 2.  When
the wind kicked up to 18-20 Sunday we switched to the 2.  Most boats went
with a 3 while a couple stayed with with their 1.  We led from start to
finish!  That may be the exception, but it was fun!

I have a 135 on a furler, a #4 and a storm jib.  My main has 3 reef points.
 I hope to never use the trysail or the third reef.

Joel
35/3
Annapolis


On Wed, Oct 9, 2013 at 2:34 PM, Dennis C. capt...@yahoo.com wrote:

 Sitting on the pier, sunny, mid 70's, debating whether to go for a sail.
  In the meantime, some thoughts on racing sails given the recent 34 sail
 discussion.

 When I bought Touché the #1 was a 170, #2 a 155, #3 a 125.  The 170
 carried a 3 second hit. After a distance race where we flew the chute 3/4
 of the race, I ditched the 170 and the penalty.

 OK,   What's on Touché now?  We run a 3 headsail (kinda) program.  Our #1
 is a Mylar/Kevlar 155 which we carry to 10-12 true. Next is the AP1 which
 is an old 155 which has had a few inches cut out of the leech. We use it to
 15-16 true. Next is the #2, a 125.  We carry it from 13-17 true. The #3 is
 a 95% blade which we throw up around 17 true.   What? That's 4 sails!  We
 rarely put the #1 and the AP1 on the boat at the same time.

 Now, having said all that, what would I rather have given more racing
 experience?  Well, here's what I feel is an optimum inventory for Touché.

 #1 light 155 good to 10-12 true
 #1+ heavy 150 or 145 good to 15-17 true
 #3 95-110 blade.

 A racing friend once told me you never change down to the #2.  You always
 drop to the blade.  You know, I think he's right about 95% of the time .
  Hence my inventory above. No true #2.

 Maybe I'll go for a sail now. :)

 Dennis C.
 Touché 35-1 #83
 Mandeville, LA

 Sent from my iPhone
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-- 
Joel
301 541 8551
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