Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[Brian Lee]

DeepMind has published a number of papers on how to stabilize RL strategies
in a landscape of nontransitive cycles. See
https://papers.nips.cc/paper/2018/file/cdf1035c34ec380218a8cc9a43d438f9-Paper.pdf

I haven't fully digested the paper, but what I'm getting from it is that if
you want your evaluation environment to be more independent of the
population of agents that you're evaluating against, you should first
compute a max-entropy Nash equilibrium of agents, and evaluate against this
equilibrium distribution.

To give a concrete example from the paper, imagine the CRPSS - the Computer
Rock Paper Scissors Server. Imagine there are currently 4 bots connected: a
Rock-only bot, a Paper-only bot, and two Scissor-only bots. The max-entropy
Nash equilibrium is 1/3, 1/3, 1/6, 1/6. So the duplicated Scissor bots are
naturally detected and their impact on the rating distribution is negated.
With CGOS's current evaluation scheme, the Rock bot would appear to have a
higher Elo score, because it has more opportunities to beat up on the two
Scissors bots.

The paper also proposes a vector extension to Elo that can better predict
outcomes under these nontransitive cycles.

Given that what we have is (at a macro level) duplication of various bot
lineages, and (at a micro level) rock-paper-scissors relationships between
bots in sharp openings, this paper seems quite relevant.


On Sat, Jan 23, 2021 at 5:34 AM Darren Cook  wrote:

> > ladders, not just liberties. In that case, yes! If you outright tell the
> > neural net as an input whether each ladder works or not (doing a short
> > tactical search to determine this), or something equivalent to it, then
> the
> > net will definitely make use of that information, ...
>
> Each convolutional layer should spread the information across the board.
> I think alpha zero used 20 layers? So even 3x3 filters would tell you
> about the whole board - though the signal from the opposite corner of
> the board might end up a bit weak.
>
> I think we can assume it is doing that successfully, because otherwise
> we'd hear about it losing lots of games in ladders.
>
> > something the first version of AlphaGo did (before they tried to make it
> > "zero") and something that many other bots do as well. But Leela Zero and
> > ELF do not do this, because of attempting to remain "zero", ...
>
> I know that zero-ness was very important to DeepMind, but I thought the
> open source dedicated go bots that have copied it did so because AlphaGo
> Zero was stronger than AlphaGo Master after 21-40 days of training.
> I.e. in the rarefied atmosphere of super-human play that starter package
> of human expert knowledge was considered a weight around its neck.
>
> BTW, I agree that feeding the results of tactical search in would make
> stronger programs, all else being equal. But it is branching code, so
> much slower to parallelize.
>
> Darren
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[Darren Cook]

> ladders, not just liberties. In that case, yes! If you outright tell the
> neural net as an input whether each ladder works or not (doing a short
> tactical search to determine this), or something equivalent to it, then the
> net will definitely make use of that information, ...

Each convolutional layer should spread the information across the board.
I think alpha zero used 20 layers? So even 3x3 filters would tell you
about the whole board - though the signal from the opposite corner of
the board might end up a bit weak.

I think we can assume it is doing that successfully, because otherwise
we'd hear about it losing lots of games in ladders.

> something the first version of AlphaGo did (before they tried to make it
> "zero") and something that many other bots do as well. But Leela Zero and
> ELF do not do this, because of attempting to remain "zero", ...

I know that zero-ness was very important to DeepMind, but I thought the
open source dedicated go bots that have copied it did so because AlphaGo
Zero was stronger than AlphaGo Master after 21-40 days of training.
I.e. in the rarefied atmosphere of super-human play that starter package
of human expert knowledge was considered a weight around its neck.

BTW, I agree that feeding the results of tactical search in would make
stronger programs, all else being equal. But it is branching code, so
much slower to parallelize.

Darren
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[uurtamo]

also frankly not a problem for a rating system to handle.

a rating system shouldn't be tweaked to handle eccentricities of its
players other than the general assumptions of how a game's result is
determined (like, does it allow for "win" and "draw" and "undetermined" or
just "win").

s.


On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 6:29 AM David Wu  wrote:

> On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:08 AM Rémi Coulom  wrote:
>
>> You are right that non-determinism and bot blind spots are a source of
>> problems with Elo ratings. I add randomness to the openings, but it is
>> still difficult to avoid repeating some patterns. I have just noticed that
>> the two wins of CrazyStone-81-15po against LZ_286_e6e2_p400 were caused by
>> very similar ladders in the opening:
>> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/73.sgf
>> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733301.sgf
>> Such a huge blind spot in such a strong engine is likely to cause rating
>> compression.
>> Rémi
>>
>
> I agree, ladders are definitely the other most noticeable way that Elo
> model assumptions may be broken, since pure-zero bots have a hard time with
> them, and can easily cause difference(A,B) + difference(B,C) to be very
> inconsistent with difference(A,C). If some of A,B,C always handle ladders
> very well and some are blind to them, then you are right that probably no
> amount of opening randomization can smooth it out.
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[David Wu]

@Claude - Oh, sorry, I misread your message, you were also asking about
ladders, not just liberties. In that case, yes! If you outright tell the
neural net as an input whether each ladder works or not (doing a short
tactical search to determine this), or something equivalent to it, then the
net will definitely make use of that information, There are some bad side
effects even to doing this, but it helps the most common case. This is
something the first version of AlphaGo did (before they tried to make it
"zero") and something that many other bots do as well. But Leela Zero and
ELF do not do this, because of attempting to remain "zero", i.e. free as
much as possible from expert human knowledge or specialized feature
crafting.


On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 9:26 AM David Wu  wrote:

> Hi Claude - no, generally feeding liberty counts to neural networks
> doesn't help as much as one would hope with ladders and sekis and large
> capturing races.
>
> The thing that is hard about ladders has nothing to do with liberties - a
> trained net is perfectly capable of recognizing the atari, this is
> extremely easy. The hard part is predicting if the ladder will work without
> playing it out, because whether it works depends extremely sensitively on
> the exact position of stones all the way on the other side of the board. A
> net that fails to predict this well might prematurely reject a working
> ladder (which is very hard for the search to correct), or be highly
> overoptimistic about a nonworking ladder (which takes the search thousands
> of playouts to correct in every single branch of the tree that it happens
> in).
>
> For large sekis and capturing races, liberties usually don't help as much
> as you would think. This is because approach liberties, ko liberties, big
> eye liberties, shared liberties versus unshared liberties, throwin
> possibilities all affect the "effective" liberty count significantly. Also
> very commonly you have bamboo joints, simple diagonal or hanging
> connections and other shapes where the whole group is not physically
> connected, also making the raw liberty count not so useful. The neural net
> still ultimately has to scan over the entire group anyways, computing these
> things.
>
> On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:31 AM Claude Brisson via Computer-go <
> computer-go@computer-go.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi. Maybe it's a newbie question, but since the ladders are part of the
>> well defined topology of the goban (as well as the number of current
>> liberties of each chain of stone), can't feeding those values to the
>> networks (from the very start of the self teaching course) help with large
>> shichos and sekis?
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>>   Claude
>> On 21-01-22 13 h 59, Rémi Coulom wrote:
>>
>> Hi David,
>>
>> You are right that non-determinism and bot blind spots are a source of
>> problems with Elo ratings. I add randomness to the openings, but it is
>> still difficult to avoid repeating some patterns. I have just noticed that
>> the two wins of CrazyStone-81-15po against LZ_286_e6e2_p400 were caused by
>> very similar ladders in the opening:
>> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/73.sgf
>> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733301.sgf
>> Such a huge blind spot in such a strong engine is likely to cause rating
>> compression.
>>
>> Rémi
>>
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[David Wu]

Hi Claude - no, generally feeding liberty counts to neural networks doesn't
help as much as one would hope with ladders and sekis and large capturing
races.

The thing that is hard about ladders has nothing to do with liberties - a
trained net is perfectly capable of recognizing the atari, this is
extremely easy. The hard part is predicting if the ladder will work without
playing it out, because whether it works depends extremely sensitively on
the exact position of stones all the way on the other side of the board. A
net that fails to predict this well might prematurely reject a working
ladder (which is very hard for the search to correct), or be highly
overoptimistic about a nonworking ladder (which takes the search thousands
of playouts to correct in every single branch of the tree that it happens
in).

For large sekis and capturing races, liberties usually don't help as much
as you would think. This is because approach liberties, ko liberties, big
eye liberties, shared liberties versus unshared liberties, throwin
possibilities all affect the "effective" liberty count significantly. Also
very commonly you have bamboo joints, simple diagonal or hanging
connections and other shapes where the whole group is not physically
connected, also making the raw liberty count not so useful. The neural net
still ultimately has to scan over the entire group anyways, computing these
things.

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:31 AM Claude Brisson via Computer-go <
computer-go@computer-go.org> wrote:

> Hi. Maybe it's a newbie question, but since the ladders are part of the
> well defined topology of the goban (as well as the number of current
> liberties of each chain of stone), can't feeding those values to the
> networks (from the very start of the self teaching course) help with large
> shichos and sekis?
>
> Regards,
>
>   Claude
> On 21-01-22 13 h 59, Rémi Coulom wrote:
>
> Hi David,
>
> You are right that non-determinism and bot blind spots are a source of
> problems with Elo ratings. I add randomness to the openings, but it is
> still difficult to avoid repeating some patterns. I have just noticed that
> the two wins of CrazyStone-81-15po against LZ_286_e6e2_p400 were caused by
> very similar ladders in the opening:
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/73.sgf
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733301.sgf
> Such a huge blind spot in such a strong engine is likely to cause rating
> compression.
>
> Rémi
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[David Wu]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 3:45 AM Hiroshi Yamashita  wrote:

> This kind of joseki is not good for Zero type. Ladder and capturing
>   race are intricately combined. In AlphaGo(both version of AlphaGoZero
>   and Master) published self-matches, this joseki is rare.
> -
>
> I found this joseki in kata1_b40s575v100 (black) vs LZ_286_e6e2_p400
> (white).
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/22/733340.sgf
>

Hi Hiroshi - yep. This is indeed a joseki that was partly popularized by AI
and jointly explored with humans. It is probably fair to say that it is by
far the most complicated common joseki known right now, and more
complicated than either of the avalanche or the taisha.

Some zero-trained bots will find and enter into this joseki, some won't.
The ones that don't play this joseki in self-play will have a significant
chance to be vulnerable to it if an opponent plays it against them, because
there are a large number of traps and blind spots that cannot be solved if
the net doesn't have experience with the position. And even having some
experience is not always enough. For example, ELF and Leela Zero have
learned some lines, but are far from perfect. There is a good chance that
AlphaGoZero or Master would have been vulnerable to it as well. KataGo at
the time of 1.3.5 was also vulnerable to it too - it only rarely came up in
self-play, and therefore was never learned and correctly evaluated, so from
the 3-3 invader's side the joseki could be forced and KataGo would likely
mess up the joseki and be losing the game right at the start. (The most
recent KataGo nets are much less vulnerable now though).

The example you found is one where this has happened to Leela Zero. In the
game you linked, move 34 is a big mistake. Leela Zero underweights the
possibility of move 35, and then is blind to the seeming-bad-shape move of
37, and as a result, is in a bad position now. The current Leela Zero nets
consistently makes this mistake, *and* consistently prefer playing down
this line, so against an opponent happy to play it with them, Leela Zero
will lose many games right in the opening all the same way.

Anyways, the reason this joseki is responsible for more such distortions
than other joseki seems to be because it is so sharp, and unlike most other
common joseki, contains at least 5-6 enormous blind spots in different
variations that zero-trained nets variously have trouble to learn on their
own.

> a very large sampling of positions from a wide range
> > of human professional games, from say, move 20, and have bots play
> starting
> > from these sampled positions, in pairs once with each color.
>
> This sounds interesting.
> I will think about another CGOS that handle this.


I'm glad you're interested. I don't know if move 20 is a good number (I
just threw it out there), maybe it should be varied, it might take
some experimentation. And I'm not sure it's worth doing, since it's still
probably only the smaller part of the problem in general - as Remi pointed
out, likely ladder handling will be a thing that always continues to
introduce Elo-nontransitivity, and probably all of this is less important
than generally having a variety of long-running bots to help stabilize the
system over time.
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[David Wu]

On Fri, Jan 22, 2021 at 8:08 AM Rémi Coulom  wrote:

> You are right that non-determinism and bot blind spots are a source of
> problems with Elo ratings. I add randomness to the openings, but it is
> still difficult to avoid repeating some patterns. I have just noticed that
> the two wins of CrazyStone-81-15po against LZ_286_e6e2_p400 were caused by
> very similar ladders in the opening:
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/73.sgf
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733301.sgf
> Such a huge blind spot in such a strong engine is likely to cause rating
> compression.
> Rémi
>

I agree, ladders are definitely the other most noticeable way that Elo
model assumptions may be broken, since pure-zero bots have a hard time with
them, and can easily cause difference(A,B) + difference(B,C) to be very
inconsistent with difference(A,C). If some of A,B,C always handle ladders
very well and some are blind to them, then you are right that probably no
amount of opening randomization can smooth it out.
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[Claude Brisson via Computer-go]

Hi. Maybe it's a newbie question, but since the ladders are part of the 
well defined topology of the goban (as well as the number of current 
liberties of each chain of stone), can't feeding those values to the 
networks (from the very start of the self teaching course) help with 
large shichos and sekis?


Regards,

  Claude

On 21-01-22 13 h 59, Rémi Coulom wrote:

Hi David,

You are right that non-determinism and bot blind spots are a source of 
problems with Elo ratings. I add randomness to the openings, but it is 
still difficult to avoid repeating some patterns. I have just noticed 
that the two wins of CrazyStone-81-15po against LZ_286_e6e2_p400 were 
caused by very similar ladders in the opening:

http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/73.sgf
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733301.sgf
Such a huge blind spot in such a strong engine is likely to cause 
rating compression.


Rémi

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[Rémi Coulom]

Hi David,

You are right that non-determinism and bot blind spots are a source of
problems with Elo ratings. I add randomness to the openings, but it is
still difficult to avoid repeating some patterns. I have just noticed that
the two wins of CrazyStone-81-15po against LZ_286_e6e2_p400 were caused by
very similar ladders in the opening:
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/73.sgf
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/21/733301.sgf
Such a huge blind spot in such a strong engine is likely to cause rating
compression.

Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,


The most noticeable case of this is with Mi Yuting's flying dagger joseki.


I'm not familiar with this.
I found Hirofumi Ohashi 6d pro's explanation half year ago in HCCL ML.
The following is a quote.
-
https://gokifu.net/t2.php?s=3591591539793593
It seems that it is called a flying dagger joseki in China.
This shape, direct 33 to lower tsuke (black 9th move B6) is researched
 jointly with humans and AI, but still inconclusive. After kiri (black
 15th move E4), mainstream is white A, but depending on the version of
 KataGo, white B may be recommended. By the way, KataGo I'm using now
 is 1.3.5, which is just a short time ago.

This kind of joseki is not good for Zero type. Ladder and capturing
 race are intricately combined. In AlphaGo(both version of AlphaGoZero
 and Master) published self-matches, this joseki is rare.
-

I found this joseki in kata1_b40s575v100 (black) vs LZ_286_e6e2_p400 (white).
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/viewer.cgi?19x19/SGF/2021/01/22/733340.sgf

Mi Yuting wiki has this joseki.
https://zh.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E8%8A%88%E6%98%B1%E5%BB%B7
KataGo has special option.
https://github.com/lightvector/KataGo/blob/4a79cde56e81209ce4e2fd231b0f2cbee3a8354b/cpp/neuralnet/nneval.cpp#L499


a very large sampling of positions from a wide range
of human professional games, from say, move 20, and have bots play starting
from these sampled positions, in pairs once with each color. 


This sounds interesting.
I will think about another CGOS that handle this.

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[David Wu]

One tricky thing is that there are some major nonlinearities between
different bots early in the opening that break Elo model assumptions quite
blatantly at these higher levels.

The most noticeable case of this is with Mi Yuting's flying dagger joseki.
I've noticed for example that in particular matchups between different
pairs of bots (e.g. one particular KataGo net as white versus ELF as black,
or one version of LZ as black versus some other version as white), maybe as
many as 30% of games will enter into this joseki and the preferences for
the bots may happen by chance to line up such that consistently they will
play down a path where one side hits a blind spot and begins the game with
an early disadvantage. Each different bot may have different preferences
such that arbitrarily each possible pairing randomly runs into such a trap
or not.

And, having significant early-game temperature in the bot itself doesn't
always help as much as you would think because this particular joseki is so
sharp that a particular bot could easily have such a strong preference for
one path or another (even when it is ultimately wrong) so as to override
any reasonable temperature. Sometimes, adding temperature or extra
randomness simply only mildly changes the frequency of the sequence, or
just varies the time before the joseki and trap/blunder happens anyways.

If games are to begin from the empty board, I'm not sure there's an easy
way around this except having a very large variety of opponents.

One thing that I'm pretty sure would mostly "fix" the problem (in the sense
of producing a smoother metric of general strength in a variety of
positions not heavily affected by just a few key lines) would be to
semi-arbitrarily take a very large sampling of positions from a wide range
of human professional games, from say, move 20, and have bots play starting
from these sampled positions, in pairs once with each color. This would
still include many AI openings, because of the way human pros in the last
3-4 years have quickly integrated and experimented with them, but would
also introduce a lot more variety in general than would occur in any
head-to-head matchup.

This is almost surely a *smaller *problem than simply having enough games
mixing between different long-running bots to anchor the Elo system. And it
is not the only way major nontransitivities can show up, (e.g. ladders).
But to take a leaf from computer Chess, playing from sampled forced
openings seems to be a common practice there and maybe it's worth
considering in computer Go as well, even if it only fixes what is currently
the smaller of the issues.


On Thu, Jan 21, 2021 at 12:01 PM Rémi Coulom  wrote:

> Thanks for computing the new rating list.
>
> I feel it did not fix anything. The old Zen, cronus, etc.have almost no
> change at all.
>
> So it is not a good fix, in my opinion. No need to change anything to the
> official ratings.
>
> The fundamental problem seems that the Elo rating model is too wrong for
> this data, and there is no easy fix for that.
>
> Long ago, I had thought about using a more complex multi-dimensional Elo
> model. The CGOS data may be a good opportunity to try it. I will try when I
> have some free time.
>
> Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[Rémi Coulom]

Thanks for computing the new rating list.

I feel it did not fix anything. The old Zen, cronus, etc.have almost no
change at all.

So it is not a good fix, in my opinion. No need to change anything to the
official ratings.

The fundamental problem seems that the Elo rating model is too wrong for
this data, and there is no easy fix for that.

Long ago, I had thought about using a more complex multi-dimensional Elo
model. The CGOS data may be a good opportunity to try it. I will try when I
have some free time.

Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

This is original BayesElo. I updated manually. This is latest.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/bayes.html
CrazyStone-18.044065
CrazyStone-81b-TiV  4032
Zen-15.7-3c1g   3999
CrazyStone-57-TiV   3618

This renames CrazyStone-57-TiV to CrazyStone-18.04.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/bayes_20210121_rename_CrazyStone-57-TiV_to_CrazyStone-18.04.html
CrazyStone-81b-TiV  4051
Zen-15.7-3c1g   3968
CrazyStone-18.043778

Would you like to continue to rename CrazyStone-57-TiV?
The drift looks fixed, but a little for other programs.

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[Rémi Coulom]

I checked, and CrazyStone-57-TiV is using the same neural network and
hardware as CrazyStone-18.04. Batch size, cuDNN version, and time
management heuristics may have changed, but I expect that strength should
be almost identical. CrazyStone-57-TiV may be a little stronger.

So it seems that the rating drift over 3 years is about 450 Elo points, and
the "All Time Ranks" are a bit meaningless.

Can you produce a list where CrazyStone-57-TiV is renamed to
CrazyStone-18.04? It may be enough to fix the drift.

I need the machine for something else, so I disconnected the GPU version.
CrazyStone-81-15po is running 15 playouts per move on the CPU of a small
machine, and will stay.

Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,


The Elo statistical model is wrong when different kind of programs play against


I have a similar experience.
I calculated Japanese Shogi women pro rating before.
The strongest woman, Ichiyo Shimizu, her rating is 1578 Elo.
Her winrate against men pros is 18%(163 games), and against women pro is 
65%(523 games).
Her rating without women pros game is 1286 Elo.
There is 292(=1578 - 1286) Elo difference.
It is because usually women pros play with women pros. Women pros vs men pros 
are rare.

I think similar thing happens on CGOS. There are three eras, Zen, LeelaZero and 
KataGo.
Number of Zen vs LeelaZero games are a little.
CrazyStone-18.04 rate maybe depend on Zen-15.7-3c1g.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/cross/CrazyStone-18.04.html

Zen's absence is maybe a reason of this drift.

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[uurtamo]

It's a relative ranking versus who you actually get to play against.

Sparsity of actual skill will lead to that kind of clumping.

The only way that a rating could meaningfully climb by playing gnugo or
your direct peers is going to happen exponentially slowly -- you'd need to
lose to gnugo twice less often (or win all the time over twice as many
games) to get more points. So although it would eventually increase, it
would flatten out pretty quickly.

Good point about mcmc. A more dramatic approach would be to remove gnugo
altogether.


On Mon, Jan 18, 2021, 6:41 AM Rémi Coulom  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Thanks to you for taking care of CGOS.
>
> I have just connected CrazyStone-57-TiV. It is not identical, but should
> be similar to the old CrazyStone-18.04. CrazyStone-18.04 was the last
> version of my program that used tensorflow. CrazyStone-57 is the first
> neural network that did not use tensorflow, running with my current code.
> So it should be stronger than CrazyStone-18.04, and I expect it will get a
> much lower rating.
> A possible explanation for the rating drift may be that most of the old MC
> programs have disappeared. They won easily against GNU Go, and were easily
> beaten by the CNN programs. The Elo statistical model is wrong when
> different kind of programs play against each other. When the CNN program
> had to get a rating by playing directly against GNU Go, they did not manage
> to climb as high as when they had the MC programs between them and GNU Go.
> I'll try to investigate this hypothesis more with the data.
>
> Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[Rémi Coulom]

Hi,

Thanks to you for taking care of CGOS.

I have just connected CrazyStone-57-TiV. It is not identical, but should be
similar to the old CrazyStone-18.04. CrazyStone-18.04 was the last version
of my program that used tensorflow. CrazyStone-57 is the first neural
network that did not use tensorflow, running with my current code. So it
should be stronger than CrazyStone-18.04, and I expect it will get a much
lower rating.
A possible explanation for the rating drift may be that most of the old MC
programs have disappeared. They won easily against GNU Go, and were easily
beaten by the CNN programs. The Elo statistical model is wrong when
different kind of programs play against each other. When the CNN program
had to get a rating by playing directly against GNU Go, they did not manage
to climb as high as when they had the MC programs between them and GNU Go.
I'll try to investigate this hypothesis more with the data.

Rémi
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[Computer-go] CGOS source on github

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

I have published current CGOS source on github.

https://github.com/yssaya/CGOS

There are some changes. Like

1. Recent 300 games on cross-table page.
2. WGo viewer
3. 7.0 komi and handling draw for rating calculation.
4. Shorter pgn file for BayesElo (cgosBayes).
5. Forbid number only account.
6. Bug fixed to send info all 'catch {puts $soc "info $msg"}'
7. badusers.txt for not removing dead stones or too many timeout.

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS rating has drifted a lot

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi Remi,

This has latest 19x19.pgn and some tools to make bayes.html.
 
http://www.yss-aya.com/20210112cgos_bin.tar.bz2


I got these tools from Joshua Shriver.

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita


Hi Hiroshi,

I tried to compile my old code, but it turns out to be a bit too
complicated because it was using tensorflow. I am not using tensorflow any
more, and don't want to try to reinstall and recompile it. But I would like
to try to take a look at the data. Can I download it anywhere? Can you send
the PGN of the 3 lists to me?

Thanks,

Rémi


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS rating has drifted a lot

[Rémi Coulom]

Hi Hiroshi,

I tried to compile my old code, but it turns out to be a bit too
complicated because it was using tensorflow. I am not using tensorflow any
more, and don't want to try to reinstall and recompile it. But I would like
to try to take a look at the data. Can I download it anywhere? Can you send
the PGN of the 3 lists to me?

Thanks,

Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS rating has drifted a lot

[Rémi Coulom]

Hi Hiroshi,

Thanks for your work. In both lists CrazyStone-18.04 is ahead of
CrazyStone-81-TitV, which is really completely wrong.

I will reconnect CrazyStone-18.04 soon. It may help to adjust things a
little bit.

Rémi
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS rating has drifted a lot

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

Deleting losing on time games, and deleting losing on time games and same 
program matches are follows.

19x19 BayesElo (deleting losing on time games)
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/bayes_20210109_del_timeout.html
19x19 BayesElo (deleting losing on time games and same program matches)
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/bayes_20210109_del_timeout_same_program_match.html

Top rating and ELFv2 (delete on time)
  black_hole_v75245
  LZ_05db_ELFv2_p800   4005

Top rating and ELFv2 (delete on time and same program matches)
  black_hole_v64958
  LZ_05db_ELFv2_p800   3855

Top rating and ELFv2 (original)
  Katago_40b_s37_4V4762
  LZ_05db_ELFv2_p800   3686
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/bayes.html

I had thought top rating of "delete on time and same program matches" was less 
than original, but it is not.

The matches between these names are deleted.
For example, if black name has "LZ" and white name has "ELF", this game is 
deleted.

LZ | lz | Leela | ELF
kata | Kata | KG | k40b | k160 | Ka
Zen
CrazyStone | CS
Rnz | rn | Rn
Aya
myCtest
AQ
Dirichlet
CGI
DCNN-
Odin


731369 ... number of games
721122 ... number of games after deleting timeout
592249 ... number of games after deleting timeout and same program matches

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS rating has drifted a lot

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi Remi,

I agree with you losing on time against weak program is bad effect for ratings.
And I think same program matches with different playouts, like 400 playouts vs 
800 playouts are worse.
There are too many Leela Zero vs Leela Zero, and recently KataGo vs KataGo.
Maybe for human, current top program rating is not so high.

I will try to calculate BayesElo without losing on time and same program 
matches before very long.

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS rating has drifted a lot

[lijun]

您好！我是江苏君华特种工程塑料制品有限公司的总经理李军，我的手机号码为13382868677，感谢您发来的邮件！我会尽快处理答复您！
Hello，I am Jolly Li， the general manager of Jiangsu Junhua High Performance 
Engineering Plastic Products Co.，Ltd. Thanks for your mail ，it is well 
received，I will get back to you as soon as possible.
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[Computer-go] CGOS rating has drifted a lot

[Rémi Coulom]

Hi,

I trained a much stronger 19x19 network for Crazy Stone in December, and
connected it to CGOS yesterday. It is winning almost 100% of its games
against the version I connected 3 years ago, and still has a lower rating.
It seems there has been a very big drift of ratings.

Even the Bayeselo list seems to have drifted.

My feeling is that this may be caused by strong programs losing on time
against weak programs. It would be interesting to compute a rating list
that excludes games lost on time.

I could also reconnect CrazyStone-18.03. I will do it in a few days when
the current version will have played enough games to establish its rating.

Rémi
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[Computer-go] CGOS max rating graph

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

I made CGOS max rating graph.
http://www.yss-aya.com/20200703cgos_e.png
Red is 19x19, Blue is 9x9.

In 2006, Monte-Carlo was introduced, and progressing slowly up to 2012.
In 2016, Deep Learning was introduced, and big jump in 19x19.
But it looks like to improve 9x9 is very hard.

GNU Go is 1800 ELO. In 9x9, komi is 7.5 up to 2012, 7.0 from 2016.
19x19 time limit is 20 minutes up to 2012, 15 minutes from 2016.
I use BayesELO if it has.
CGOS had stopped from 2012 to 2015.

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita
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[Computer-go] CGOS has two anchors

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

LZ_05db_ELFv2_p800 has been fixed at 3670(from 3102) to match BayesElo.
This is an adjustment with a difference of 568 Elo between BayesElo and 
standing page Elo on 19x19.

http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html

Some bots are also fixed at BayesElo temporarily.
If I found old bots which have BayesElo, I will fix them at BayesElo 
temporarily.

On the standing page, GNU Go is fixed at 1800.
Now that there are over 4000 Elo bots, many higher scores are being compressed.
For example, if ELFv2 is 3600 and this is only one bot at the top, and if you 
put 4000 KataGo there,
ELFv2 drops to around 3550 and KataGo stabilizes at 3950.
I think we're repeating this process.


LZ_05db_ELFv2_p800 uses LeelaZero 0.15.

name   LZ_05db_ELFv2_p800
invoke ../leelaz -p800 --noponder -r1 -g -t2 -q -d -w 
../networks/05dbca157002b9fd618145d22803beae0f7e4015af48ac50f246b9316e315544

Gnugo-3.7.10-a1 uses ver 3.7.10 and 32 bit binary. 64 bit GNU Go has some 
problems.

name   Gnugo-3.7.10-a1
invoke ./gnugo3710_32bit --mode gtp --capture-all-dead --chinese-rules 
--min-level 10 --max-level 10 --positional-superko

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita
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[Computer-go] CGOS 9x9 draw rate

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

I have checked CGOS 9x9 black winrate and draw rate.

CGOS 9x9 black winrate
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos2018_03_07_black_winrate.png
CGOS 9x9 draw rate
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos2018_03_07_draw_rate.png

Following table means 1800 range(both player are (1800 <= rate < 1900))
games are 397, and black winrate is 0.460.
I did not plot 1900 - 2100 because few games.

It seems black winrate tends to down for strong players.
Draw rate clearly tends to up.
Maybe over 4300, all games become draw?


CGOS from 2018/03/01 to 2018/07/31, total 130922 games

rate  games   B wins Draw W wins  Black winrate(draw is 0.5)  Draw rate
1800:   397 =(  153/   59/  185) 0.4600.149
1900: 3 =(2/1/0) 0.8330.333
2000: 1 =(0/0/1) 0.0000.000
2100: 6 =(5/0/1) 0.8330.000
2200:81 =(   34/3/   44) 0.4380.037
2300:  1259 =(  587/   77/  595) 0.4970.061
2400:  4923 =( 2346/  409/ 2168) 0.5180.083
2500:   945 =(  391/  128/  426) 0.4810.135
2600:   107 =(   43/   24/   40) 0.5140.224
2700:  1490 =(  518/  253/  719) 0.4330.170
2800:  3354 =(  970/ 1135/ 1249) 0.4580.338
2900:  1375 =(  416/  390/  569) 0.4440.284
3000:   181 =(   60/   31/   90) 0.4170.171
3100:41 =(   11/   16/   14) 0.4630.390


Following are Black first move winrate.
It seems Black tengen (5,5) is not best move anymore for players >= 2800.
Maybe one reason is Leela Zero 9x9(LZ20_128_65_p3000) only plays (4,5)
and never play (5,5).


Black first move winrate

 both player < 2800  both player >= 2800

 games   black winrate   games  black winrate
(5,5) 41929(59.2) 0.554   5072(36.7) 0.398
(4,4) 11349(16.0) 0.548   2510(18.2) 0.388
(4,5)  7676(10.8) 0.538   5407(39.1) 0.519
(3,4)  2777( 3.9) 0.239604( 4.4) 0.424
(3,3)  1402( 2.0) 0.212 87( 0.6) 0.282
(3,5)  1353( 1.9) 0.180111( 0.8) 0.500
--
total 70769  13815

http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/standings.html

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS Real-time game viewer

[uurtamo]

by the way, i'm watching LZ get killed in the early game by something
called hd? who is that?

at the end it's all fairly sloppy (this only based upon 3-4 games i've
watched), but hd seems to have a strong opening comparatively.

s.


On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 6:04 AM, David Wu  wrote:

> Awesome!
>
> I was going to complain that the color scheme had not enough contrast
> between the white stones and the background (at least on my desktop, it was
> hard to see the white stones clearly), and then I discovered the settings
> menu already lets you change the background color. Cool! :)
>
>
> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 8:38 AM, uurtamo  wrote:
>
>> This is really well done.
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Steve
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> CGOS 19x19 Real-time game viewer is available.
>>> https://deepleela.com/cgos
>>>
>>> Thank you for author of DeepLeela site.
>>> DeepLeela logins as a Viewer, and dispatches to thier clients.
>>> There were Viewing Client on Linux and Windows, but no on the browser.
>>>
>>> Source code is also available.
>>> https://github.com/deepleela
>>>
>>> Thanks,
>>> Hiroshi Yamashita
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>>
>>
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS Real-time game viewer

[David Wu]

Awesome!

I was going to complain that the color scheme had not enough contrast
between the white stones and the background (at least on my desktop, it was
hard to see the white stones clearly), and then I discovered the settings
menu already lets you change the background color. Cool! :)


On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 8:38 AM, uurtamo  wrote:

> This is really well done.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Steve
>
>
> On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita 
> wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> CGOS 19x19 Real-time game viewer is available.
>> https://deepleela.com/cgos
>>
>> Thank you for author of DeepLeela site.
>> DeepLeela logins as a Viewer, and dispatches to thier clients.
>> There were Viewing Client on Linux and Windows, but no on the browser.
>>
>> Source code is also available.
>> https://github.com/deepleela
>>
>> Thanks,
>> Hiroshi Yamashita
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>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS Real-time game viewer

[uurtamo]

This is really well done.

Thanks,

Steve


On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 4:10 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> CGOS 19x19 Real-time game viewer is available.
> https://deepleela.com/cgos
>
> Thank you for author of DeepLeela site.
> DeepLeela logins as a Viewer, and dispatches to thier clients.
> There were Viewing Client on Linux and Windows, but no on the browser.
>
> Source code is also available.
> https://github.com/deepleela
>
> Thanks,
> Hiroshi Yamashita
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[Computer-go] CGOS Real-time game viewer

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

CGOS 19x19 Real-time game viewer is available.
https://deepleela.com/cgos

Thank you for author of DeepLeela site.
DeepLeela logins as a Viewer, and dispatches to thier clients.
There were Viewing Client on Linux and Windows, but no on the browser.

Source code is also available.
https://github.com/deepleela

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita
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[Computer-go] CGOS server update

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

Recently CGOS 19x19 stopped often.
I checked log, and found it stopped
in "proc infoMsg {msg}" function, when it sends message to all.

-
error writing "sock18": connection reset by peer
   while executing
"puts $soc "info $msg""
   (procedure "infoMsg" line 8)
-

So I modified from
puts $soc "info $msg"
to
catch {puts $soc "info $msg"}

and restarted.
For viewer code, "catch" has been used, like
catch {puts $v "info $msg"}

I hope this change makes server stable.
Current server code is
http://www.yss-aya.com/20170914cgos_yama.zip
cgos.tcl... server
webuild.tcl ... making html
viewer.cgi  ... sgf viewer

My change from original code.
-
webuild.tcl
 recent 300 games
 viewer.cgi with wgo.
cgos.tcl
 forbidden "1024" login name (numeric only account)
 handling draw
 catch {puts $soc "info $msg"}  in proc infoMsg {msg}.
   sometimes CGOS server -socket function stopped here.
-

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] cgos <--> kgs rating

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

I have some data. CGOS is 19x19.

   CGOSKGS  Botname  Time 
Aya788d_p1v0_6c12t  32356d   AyaMC1min + 15sec x10

Aya786m_4c  29654d   AyaMC4   1min + 15sec x10
AyaF128_507_ro_1k   27363d   AyaBotD1 10min + 30sec x5
Aya786l_10k 26752d   AyaMC2   10min + 30sec x5
Aya786m_5k  25642d   AyaBot2  10min + 30sec x5
Aya786m_1k  21761k   AyaBot01 10min + 30sec x5
Gnugo-3.7.10-a1 18005k
AyaBot  13929k   AyaBot   10min + 30sec x5

This post has also some info.

guess AlphaGo's CGOS rating
http://computer-go.org/pipermail/computer-go/2016-February/008638.html

Thanks,
Hiroshi Yamashita

- Original Message - 
From: "Detlef Schmicker" <d...@physik.de>

To: <computer-go@computer-go.org>
Sent: Tuesday, June 28, 2016 3:05 AM
Subject: [Computer-go] cgos <--> kgs rating



Hay,

I wonder if somebody has the same program (with the same settings)
rated on cgos 19x19 and kgs?

I am still fighting with resigning in the case of value-network and
playouts disagree, so I can not run oakfoam on kgs, but would like to
have a strength hint :)

Thanks Detlef


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Re: [Computer-go] cgos <--> kgs rating

[Nick Wedd]

GNU Go is now rated at 5k on KGS, having spent about a month at 4k. This
version is running a single thread on my rather old desktop.

Nick

On 27 June 2016 at 21:04, Hideki Kato  wrote:

> GNU Go has 1800 Elo on cgos and is ranked from 8 to 6 kyu on KGS.
> Zen v11.8 has 3420 on cgos using 2 cores and 8-core version is
> ranked 8d (blitz) on KGS. The difference must be about 200 Elo.
> Probably Aya (and HiraBot?) also have two numbers.
> #Note that the time settings are different for cgos and kgs.
>
> Hideki
>
> Detlef Schmicker: <57716ada.9060...@physik.de>:
> >-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> >Hash: SHA1
> >
> >Hay,
> >
> >I wonder if somebody has the same program (with the same settings)
> >rated on cgos 19x19 and kgs?
> >
> >I am still fighting with resigning in the case of value-network and
> >playouts disagree, so I can not run oakfoam on kgs, but would like to
> >have a strength hint :)
> >
> >
> >Thanks Detlef
> >-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
> >Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)
> >
> >iQIcBAEBAgAGBQJXcWraAAoJEInWdHg+Znf4vFgP/18AbsZpOH9mjjE4j30j4WZm
> >R3MJFQW/519IczwBNkps80Q1Gl0K7LYJ6ss7Ok0FUmqVB+3V4+ZXoMLp5wD637VO
> >nRTXCvdx+xUyyR+fPgj7PEtGCr+hNsbvDlwxqsqdX5laK+L5NanvPMIWz0ZMCFlV
> >7CUHweIwac2f56l679Urf+wqBXysQiGcOHbXmcWlUVlJ6Og4xKfCJM38Gx2gUyfK
> >+yPecX6c84t1qe/h9rw2E9tkP9KHM0rpyTsJGLvVh2ia8mmkdP1KZeeFd7sM9pQV
> >vClV53JJdU//iCqi5/XB2Sn4YTgElk4GjTsb5pC7EmG1QM7+PhU6v7mfYll/4XV1
> >xGeLuFRU+eqQvkd0yW+x/GRlgTfbo212nNwuHWNpGe9InCwFEIvcNNe2lPo6B+sD
> >ldK13nrYdkYVTr4Wa0+WpQaEewv0gA/9nQcjTntKikVcvDwYMn/OwBvukzSb12e3
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> >X0nUgI+ECtMr5Ya7k72i
> >=smID
> >-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [Computer-go] cgos <--> kgs rating

[Hideki Kato]

GNU Go has 1800 Elo on cgos and is ranked from 8 to 6 kyu on KGS.  
Zen v11.8 has 3420 on cgos using 2 cores and 8-core version is 
ranked 8d (blitz) on KGS. The difference must be about 200 Elo.  
Probably Aya (and HiraBot?) also have two numbers.
#Note that the time settings are different for cgos and kgs.

Hideki

Detlef Schmicker: <57716ada.9060...@physik.de>: 
>-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>Hash: SHA1
>
>Hay,
>
>I wonder if somebody has the same program (with the same settings)
>rated on cgos 19x19 and kgs?
>
>I am still fighting with resigning in the case of value-network and
>playouts disagree, so I can not run oakfoam on kgs, but would like to
>have a strength hint :)
>
>
>Thanks Detlef
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>=smID
>-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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Re: [Computer-go] cgos <--> kgs rating

[Ingo Althöfer]

Hi Detlef,

2 cent from an outsider:

"Detlef Schmicker" 
> ... I am still fighting with resigning in the case of 
> value-network and playouts disagree, ...

Might such positions be interesting starting points when 
looking for solutions for the discrepancies?

In general, positions where programs of about equal strength
have very different evaluations should be interesting for
attempts to improve the positions.

Ingo.

PS. In 1999, Chess grandmaster Arthur Yussupov participated
an experiment where he good computer hints from two or more
different chess bots. Most he liked positions where the
programs had different opinions.
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[Computer-go] cgos <--> kgs rating

[Detlef Schmicker]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hay,

I wonder if somebody has the same program (with the same settings)
rated on cgos 19x19 and kgs?

I am still fighting with resigning in the case of value-network and
playouts disagree, so I can not run oakfoam on kgs, but would like to
have a strength hint :)


Thanks Detlef
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Version: GnuPG v2.0.22 (GNU/Linux)

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X0nUgI+ECtMr5Ya7k72i
=smID
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
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[Computer-go] CGOS default rating is changed

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

I changed CGOS default rating from 1800 to the average of active players.
In 19x19, new default is around 2400.
I hope this will help for faster rating convergence.
And I added archives. It is updated manually.

http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/

Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Urban Hafner]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 3:41 PM, Joshua Shriver  wrote:

> Thank you so much for running CGOS!  Looks like it's running very
> smoothly and  you are doing a great job.
>

Yes! Thanks again. It’s great to have 9x9 and 19x19 versions again with
some strong bots playing. Great to see that everyone is participating again!


> Would you like me to take down the boardspace site, and make a referal
> link to your CGOS?   That way we can migrate and make sure people are
> all working on the right server.
>

Something seems to be wrong with the 13x13 front end. At least the current
standings page isn’t updating anymore. But the bots can still connect and
play. So maybe having all run by the same person would be preferable. Maybe
just starting a 13x13 some day on your server would be a good start
Hiroshi? Then everyone could connect and the redirect from boardspace.net
could come at a later point.

Unfortunately I don’t have a spare computer right now or I would run a few
bots myself to keep it populated. Hm … I actually might have some capacity
for a bot or two that doesn’t take up many resources (it will run on a $10
digitalocean.com box). Any preferences?

Urban
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Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Rémi Coulom]

BTW, CrazyStone-0002 (on 19x19, not 9x9) is running on my desktop PC 
(i7-5930K). At first, it was running with 4 cores. But then it lost its 
first game to Aya. I was so impressed by the strength of Aya! So I made 
it use 6 threads instead. It has been using 6 threads since then.


I can't run it permanently, but if strong programs want to try it, just 
ask, and I will let it play during one night.


Rémi

On 11/20/2015 02:23 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita wrote:

Hi Remi,

running "mm 1 1" instead of just "mm". It just estimates the 
maximum-likelihood value of drawelo by itself. Or just set drawelo to 20 


I tried. CrazyStone-0002 Elo changed a bit on each setting.
It looks difficult. So I set drawelo 20.
 Elo
drawelo 0.01, mm,  CrazyStone-0002   2713
drawelo 0.01, mm 1 1,  CrazyStone-0002   2767
drawelo 20,   mm,  CrazyStone-0002   2746


I'll connect Crazy Stone to 19x19 too.


Thanks!

Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi Remi,

I have relaxed a bit because I thought you use Atom 1.86GHz.
Aya486m_4c is running on i7-980X 3.3GHz with 4 cores.

Recently I changed Learning method for progressive windening
from MM to LFR. And accuracy changed from 38.8% to 40.7%.
It makes +70 Elo in selfplay. So I had a bit confidence, but
still CS is big wall. But I have another idea for UEC cup :-)

Hiroshi Yamashita

- Original Message - 
From: "Rémi Coulom" <remi.cou...@free.fr>

To: <computer-go@computer-go.org>
Sent: Tuesday, November 24, 2015 4:17 AM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again


BTW, CrazyStone-0002 (on 19x19, not 9x9) is running on my desktop PC (i7-5930K). At first, it was running with 4 
cores. But then it lost its first game to Aya. I was so impressed by the strength of Aya! So I made it use 6 threads 
instead. It has been using 6 threads since then.


I can't run it permanently, but if strong programs want to try it, just ask, 
and I will let it play during one night.

Rémi


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Rémi Coulom]

Hi Hiroshi,

Thanks for taking care of CGOS.

drawelo 0.01 was suggested when komi was 7.5. When draws are possible, 
it should be higher.


You can estimate a good value of drawelo if you have many games, by 
running "mm 1 1" instead of just "mm". It just estimates the 
maximum-likelihood value of drawelo by itself. Or just set drawelo to 20 
or something like this. It does not matter much, anyway.


I'll connect Crazy Stone to 19x19 too.

Rémi

On 11/20/2015 12:11 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita wrote:

Hi,

Now CGOS has recent 300 games on cross-table page.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/cross/CrazyStone-0002.html
Back color red is Loss, and green is Draw.

And I added BayesElo pages.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/bayes.html
Thanks a lot for your support, Joshua!

Now CGOS handles Draw in 9x9.
Remi, is this setting OK? I also use your program "bayeselo".

drawelo 0.01

I found this from 8 yeae's ago mail.
https://www.mail-archive.com/computer-go@computer-go.org/msg05740.html

In 19x19, two DCNN programs are running.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html
DCNN-Detlf uses Detlef's network data.
DCNN-No133 uses original learning data by Fukumoto-san, author of 
HiraBot.
Both bot are running by Fukumoto-san, and they make a move without 
search.


Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

- Original Message - From: "Rémi Coulom" <remi.cou...@free.fr>
To: <computer-go@computer-go.org>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again



Hi Hiroshi,

Thanks a lot for running CGOS!

I have just connected Crazy Stone. It is running on one core of my 
web server:

Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N2800   @ 1.86GHz
I plan to let it play forever.

I noticed the game gets blocked for a long time when Aya resigns. I 
suppose that may be on purpose.


Rémi

On 11/10/2015 02:11 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita wrote:

Hi,

I have started CGOS on my VPS(Virtual Private Server).
19x19 and 9x9 are running.
In 9x9, komi is 7.0. Draw is 0.5 win in rating calc.
I'll keep it running for a while.
13x13 is running on original server.

  time   serverportkomi
9x9  5 minutesyss-aya.com   68097.0
19x19   15 minutesyss-aya.com   68197.5
13x13   10 minutescgos.boardspace.net   68137.5

http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/standings.html
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html

Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi Remi,

running "mm 1 1" instead of just "mm". It just estimates the 
maximum-likelihood value of drawelo by itself. Or just set drawelo to 20 


I tried. CrazyStone-0002 Elo changed a bit on each setting.
It looks difficult. So I set drawelo 20.  


 Elo
drawelo 0.01, mm,  CrazyStone-0002   2713
drawelo 0.01, mm 1 1,  CrazyStone-0002   2767
drawelo 20,   mm,  CrazyStone-0002   2746


I'll connect Crazy Stone to 19x19 too.


Thanks!

Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Joshua Shriver]

Thank you so much for running CGOS!  Looks like it's running very
smoothly and  you are doing a great job.

Would you like me to take down the boardspace site, and make a referal
link to your CGOS?   That way we can migrate and make sure people are
all working on the right server.

-Josh

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 6:11 AM, Hiroshi Yamashita <y...@bd.mbn.or.jp> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> Now CGOS has recent 300 games on cross-table page.
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/cross/CrazyStone-0002.html
> Back color red is Loss, and green is Draw.
>
> And I added BayesElo pages.
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/bayes.html
> Thanks a lot for your support, Joshua!
>
> Now CGOS handles Draw in 9x9.
> Remi, is this setting OK? I also use your program "bayeselo".
>
> drawelo 0.01
>
> I found this from 8 yeae's ago mail.
> https://www.mail-archive.com/computer-go@computer-go.org/msg05740.html
>
> In 19x19, two DCNN programs are running.
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html
> DCNN-Detlf uses Detlef's network data.
> DCNN-No133 uses original learning data by Fukumoto-san, author of HiraBot.
> Both bot are running by Fukumoto-san, and they make a move without search.
>
> Regards,
> Hiroshi Yamashita
>
> - Original Message - From: "Rémi Coulom" <remi.cou...@free.fr>
> To: <computer-go@computer-go.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 2:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again
>
>
>> Hi Hiroshi,
>>
>> Thanks a lot for running CGOS!
>>
>> I have just connected Crazy Stone. It is running on one core of my web
>> server:
>> Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N2800   @ 1.86GHz
>> I plan to let it play forever.
>>
>> I noticed the game gets blocked for a long time when Aya resigns. I
>> suppose that may be on purpose.
>>
>> Rémi
>>
>> On 11/10/2015 02:11 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I have started CGOS on my VPS(Virtual Private Server).
>>> 19x19 and 9x9 are running.
>>> In 9x9, komi is 7.0. Draw is 0.5 win in rating calc.
>>> I'll keep it running for a while.
>>> 13x13 is running on original server.
>>>
>>>   time   serverportkomi
>>> 9x9  5 minutesyss-aya.com   68097.0
>>> 19x19   15 minutesyss-aya.com   68197.5
>>> 13x13   10 minutescgos.boardspace.net   68137.5
>>>
>>> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/
>>> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/standings.html
>>> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html
>>>
>>> Regards,
>>> Hiroshi Yamashita
>>>
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>>
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

Now CGOS has recent 300 games on cross-table page.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/cross/CrazyStone-0002.html
Back color red is Loss, and green is Draw.

And I added BayesElo pages.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/bayes.html
Thanks a lot for your support, Joshua!

Now CGOS handles Draw in 9x9.
Remi, is this setting OK? I also use your program "bayeselo".

drawelo 0.01

I found this from 8 yeae's ago mail.
https://www.mail-archive.com/computer-go@computer-go.org/msg05740.html

In 19x19, two DCNN programs are running.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html
DCNN-Detlf uses Detlef's network data.
DCNN-No133 uses original learning data by Fukumoto-san, author of HiraBot.
Both bot are running by Fukumoto-san, and they make a move without search.

Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

- Original Message - 
From: "Rémi Coulom" <remi.cou...@free.fr>

To: <computer-go@computer-go.org>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again



Hi Hiroshi,

Thanks a lot for running CGOS!

I have just connected Crazy Stone. It is running on one core of my web server:
Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N2800   @ 1.86GHz
I plan to let it play forever.

I noticed the game gets blocked for a long time when Aya resigns. I suppose 
that may be on purpose.

Rémi

On 11/10/2015 02:11 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita wrote:

Hi,

I have started CGOS on my VPS(Virtual Private Server).
19x19 and 9x9 are running.
In 9x9, komi is 7.0. Draw is 0.5 win in rating calc.
I'll keep it running for a while.
13x13 is running on original server.

  time   serverportkomi
9x9  5 minutesyss-aya.com   68097.0
19x19   15 minutesyss-aya.com   68197.5
13x13   10 minutescgos.boardspace.net   68137.5

http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/standings.html
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html

Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi Joshua,

Thank you for your offer.
I'm glad if you could.
And I'd like to say thank you to Don, CGOS is really nice programs.

Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

- Original Message - 
From: "Joshua Shriver" <jshri...@gmail.com>

To: "computer-go" <computer-go@computer-go.org>
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 11:41 PM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again



Thank you so much for running CGOS!  Looks like it's running very
smoothly and  you are doing a great job.

Would you like me to take down the boardspace site, and make a referal
link to your CGOS?   That way we can migrate and make sure people are
all working on the right server.

-Josh

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 6:11 AM, Hiroshi Yamashita <y...@bd.mbn.or.jp> wrote:

Hi,

Now CGOS has recent 300 games on cross-table page.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/cross/CrazyStone-0002.html
Back color red is Loss, and green is Draw.

And I added BayesElo pages.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/bayes.html
Thanks a lot for your support, Joshua!

Now CGOS handles Draw in 9x9.
Remi, is this setting OK? I also use your program "bayeselo".

drawelo 0.01

I found this from 8 yeae's ago mail.
https://www.mail-archive.com/computer-go@computer-go.org/msg05740.html

In 19x19, two DCNN programs are running.
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html
DCNN-Detlf uses Detlef's network data.
DCNN-No133 uses original learning data by Fukumoto-san, author of HiraBot.
Both bot are running by Fukumoto-san, and they make a move without search.

Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

- Original Message - From: "Rémi Coulom" <remi.cou...@free.fr>
To: <computer-go@computer-go.org>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again



Hi Hiroshi,

Thanks a lot for running CGOS!

I have just connected Crazy Stone. It is running on one core of my web
server:
Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N2800   @ 1.86GHz
I plan to let it play forever.

I noticed the game gets blocked for a long time when Aya resigns. I
suppose that may be on purpose.

Rémi

On 11/10/2015 02:11 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita wrote:


Hi,

I have started CGOS on my VPS(Virtual Private Server).
19x19 and 9x9 are running.
In 9x9, komi is 7.0. Draw is 0.5 win in rating calc.
I'll keep it running for a while.
13x13 is running on original server.

  time   serverportkomi
9x9  5 minutesyss-aya.com   68097.0
19x19   15 minutesyss-aya.com   68197.5
13x13   10 minutescgos.boardspace.net   68137.5

http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/standings.html
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html

Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS boardspace

[Christoph Birk]

On 11/19/2015 05:46 AM, Joshua Shriver wrote:

I did a restart of the 9x9 and 19x19 as a test. Anyone mind testing it
to see if you can connect?


I connected two bots to
  cgos.boardspace.net:6867
but no games are starting and the page
  http://cgos.boardspace.net/9x9/standings.html
does not update either.

Christoph


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[Computer-go] CGOS boardspace

[Joshua Shriver]

I did a restart of the 9x9 and 19x19 as a test. Anyone mind testing it
to see if you can connect?
I left 13x13 alone since it just worked.

Know a couple people have forked the cgos codebase which is wonderful!
 If anyone needs help Im willing to share info, or help best I can.  I
just had such a hard time getting the original version to stay up and
do apologize.

If someone would like to take over the cgos I can ask the site owner
to make sure then arrange a transfer of login credentials.

I sadly don't have the time to dedicate to it anymore.

-Josh

P.S. Sorry I let Don down.
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi Remi,


I plan to let it play forever.


That's awesome!
Strong program is nice benchmark and motivation for others
(of cource including me).


I noticed the game gets blocked for a long time when Aya resigns.


Yes, when Aya783a_50 resigns, it waits about 3 minutes in 9x9. And it
waits 2sec each move. My VPS is very slow, about 400MHz. And Aya783a_50
and some anchors run on it. So I feel it need wait. And too short game
cycle makes big sqlite3 db. It is not good for server.
Anyway I will run CGOS at least for a year.

Hiroshi Yamashita

- Original Message - 
From: "Rémi Coulom" <remi.cou...@free.fr>

To: <computer-go@computer-go.org>
Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 2:52 AM
Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again



Hi Hiroshi,

Thanks a lot for running CGOS!

I have just connected Crazy Stone. It is running on one core of my web server:
Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N2800   @ 1.86GHz
I plan to let it play forever.

I noticed the game gets blocked for a long time when Aya resigns. I suppose 
that may be on purpose.

Rémi


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Joshua Shriver]

Thank you so much for running this!
-Josh

On Thu, Nov 12, 2015 at 5:48 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita <y...@bd.mbn.or.jp> wrote:
> Hi Remi,
>
>> I plan to let it play forever.
>
>
> That's awesome!
> Strong program is nice benchmark and motivation for others
> (of cource including me).
>
>> I noticed the game gets blocked for a long time when Aya resigns.
>
>
> Yes, when Aya783a_50 resigns, it waits about 3 minutes in 9x9. And it
> waits 2sec each move. My VPS is very slow, about 400MHz. And Aya783a_50
> and some anchors run on it. So I feel it need wait. And too short game
> cycle makes big sqlite3 db. It is not good for server.
> Anyway I will run CGOS at least for a year.
>
> Hiroshi Yamashita
>
> - Original Message - From: "Rémi Coulom" <remi.cou...@free.fr>
> To: <computer-go@computer-go.org>
> Sent: Friday, November 13, 2015 2:52 AM
> Subject: Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again
>
>
>> Hi Hiroshi,
>>
>> Thanks a lot for running CGOS!
>>
>> I have just connected Crazy Stone. It is running on one core of my web
>> server:
>> Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N2800   @ 1.86GHz
>> I plan to let it play forever.
>>
>> I noticed the game gets blocked for a long time when Aya resigns. I
>> suppose that may be on purpose.
>>
>> Rémi
>
>
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Rémi Coulom]

Hi Hiroshi,

Thanks a lot for running CGOS!

I have just connected Crazy Stone. It is running on one core of my web 
server:

Intel(R) Atom(TM) CPU N2800   @ 1.86GHz
I plan to let it play forever.

I noticed the game gets blocked for a long time when Aya resigns. I 
suppose that may be on purpose.


Rémi

On 11/10/2015 02:11 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita wrote:

Hi,

I have started CGOS on my VPS(Virtual Private Server).
19x19 and 9x9 are running.
In 9x9, komi is 7.0. Draw is 0.5 win in rating calc.
I'll keep it running for a while.
13x13 is running on original server.

  time   serverportkomi
9x9  5 minutesyss-aya.com   68097.0
19x19   15 minutesyss-aya.com   68197.5
13x13   10 minutescgos.boardspace.net   68137.5

http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/standings.html
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html

Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Urban Hafner]

Very cool, thank you!

I will see if I can start running my bot on there soon.

Urban

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 2:11 PM, Hiroshi Yamashita  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I have started CGOS on my VPS(Virtual Private Server).
> 19x19 and 9x9 are running.
> In 9x9, komi is 7.0. Draw is 0.5 win in rating calc.
> I'll keep it running for a while.
> 13x13 is running on original server.
>
>   time   serverportkomi
> 9x9  5 minutesyss-aya.com   68097.0
> 19x19   15 minutesyss-aya.com   68197.5
> 13x13   10 minutescgos.boardspace.net   68137.5
>
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/standings.html
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html
>
> Regards,
> Hiroshi Yamashita
>
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-- 
Blog: http://bettong.net/
Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/
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[Computer-go] CGOS again

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

I have started CGOS on my VPS(Virtual Private Server).
19x19 and 9x9 are running.
In 9x9, komi is 7.0. Draw is 0.5 win in rating calc.
I'll keep it running for a while.
13x13 is running on original server.

  time   serverportkomi
9x9  5 minutesyss-aya.com   68097.0
19x19   15 minutesyss-aya.com   68197.5
13x13   10 minutescgos.boardspace.net   68137.5

http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/standings.html
http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html

Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS again

[Detlef Schmicker]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Thanks a lot,

mine did not run stable, hope you have more luck! I think I had to
little RAM (128MB)

Detlef

Am 10.11.2015 um 14:11 schrieb Hiroshi Yamashita:
> Hi,
> 
> I have started CGOS on my VPS(Virtual Private Server). 19x19 and 
> 9x9 are running. In 9x9, komi is 7.0. Draw is 0.5 win in rating 
> calc. I'll keep it running for a while. 13x13 is running on 
> original server.
> 
> time   serverportkomi 9x9  5 minutes 
> yss-aya.com   68097.0 19x19   15 minutes
> yss-aya.com 68197.5 13x13   10 minutescgos.boardspace.net
> 6813 7.5
> 
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/ 
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/9x9/standings.html 
> http://www.yss-aya.com/cgos/19x19/standings.html
> 
> Regards, Hiroshi Yamashita
> 
> ___ Computer-go
> mailing list Computer-go@computer-go.org 
> http://computer-go.org/mailman/listinfo/computer-go
> 
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Re: [Computer-go] cgos 9x9

[Detlef Schmicker]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

http://blog.physik.de/?page_id=788

should be up again, sorry when I took my comuter to the olympiad in
Leiden (which was a great event) it changed the dyndns ip to leiden :(

Detlef

Am 03.07.2015 um 20:33 schrieb Olivier Teytaud:
 Hello; we would like to come back to Computer-Go, starting with the
 small 9x9 board; is there any such Cgos running somewhere ? Thanks
 to people currently running the 13x13. Or maybe we should run a 9x9
 server ourselves if nobody has this in his/her agenda ? Best
 regards, Olivier ___ 
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[Computer-go] cgos 9x9

[Olivier Teytaud]

Hello;
we would like to come back to Computer-Go,
starting with the small 9x9 board; is there any such Cgos running somewhere ?
Thanks to people currently running the 13x13.
Or maybe we should run a 9x9 server ourselves if nobody has this in
his/her agenda ?
Best regards,
Olivier
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Re: [Computer-go] cgos 9x9

[Joshua Shriver]

It's on my agenda.  Just finished moving 1/2 across country so I'll
have time again to work on CGOS.

-Josh
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Detlef Schmicker]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

After my ISP crashed, I do not get up 9x9 at the moment.
Immediatly myCtest tries to connect from within the middle of a game i
think and DODs the server



Am 26.05.2015 um 18:56 schrieb Christoph Birk:
 On 05/26/2015 02:41 AM, Detlef Schmicker wrote:
 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- it should be up nearly 24/7 I
 hope and use less than 5W electrical power, until the sd card is
 full :)
 
 Thank you, Christoph
 
 
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Christoph Birk]

On Jun 10, 2015, at 9:53 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:
 After my ISP crashed, I do not get up 9x9 at the moment.
 Immediatly myCtest tries to connect from within the middle of a game i
 think and DODs the server….

They try to re-connet once a minute … I stopped them now.
Christoph



Once is happenstance. Twice is coincidence. The third time it's enemy action. 
-- Auric Goldfinger

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Detlef Schmicker]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi,

I'd like to add the bayes rating to 9x9 and 19x19 intermediate server
(physik.selfhost.eu:8080) and wonder, if the bayeselo scripts for go
are around some where?

I did not find them in the original cgos source code:(


Detlef

Am 23.05.2015 um 17:29 schrieb folkert:
 24/7 is only useful, if other than open source bots are run on
 the server, otherwise the author can run it simply on
 gomill...
 
 While I agree that it is not ideal having so few programs
 running, shutting down the server is even worse, or not?
 
 If it runs stable for a while, people will return.
 
 
 Folkert van Heusden
 
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Detlef Schmicker]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

OK,

I moved it to an old Nokia N800 tablet (I was bored, and did not have
an idea to improve my bot:)

The anchor is not running on the tablet, since I was afraid of it
loosing on time, if a opponent plays a lot of moves (gnugo on 9x9
takes about 10s per move on this tablet). So anchor will be up
everytime my usual computer is up...

http://blog.physik.de/?page_id=788

it should be up nearly 24/7 I hope and use less than 5W electrical
power, until the sd card is full :)

Detlef

Am 23.05.2015 um 17:29 schrieb folkert:
 24/7 is only useful, if other than open source bots are run on
 the server, otherwise the author can run it simply on
 gomill...
 
 While I agree that it is not ideal having so few programs
 running, shutting down the server is even worse, or not?
 
 If it runs stable for a while, people will return.
 
 
 Folkert van Heusden
 
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Christoph Birk]

On 05/26/2015 02:41 AM, Detlef Schmicker wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
it should be up nearly 24/7 I hope and use less than 5W electrical
power, until the sd card is full :)


Thank you,
Christoph


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Detlef Schmicker]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

24/7 is only useful, if other than open source bots are run on the
server, otherwise the author can run it simply on gomill...

Last week only Aya_50 and Amigo was run on 13x13 24/7
cgos.boardspace.net

Am 22.05.2015 um 23:14 schrieb Christoph Birk:
 
 On May 22, 2015, at 10:46 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de
 wrote:
 I wonder, if it would help to put it up once a week or so, with
 announcement, and take it down again, if the number of bots falls
 below 5 or so?
 
 I am not actively developing a bot, but IMHO without being up 24/7
 CGOS is not very useful.
 
 Christoph
 
 --- Science advances one funeral at a time -- Max Planck
 
 
 
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[folkert]

  24/7 is only useful, if other than open source bots are run on the
  server, otherwise the author can run it simply on gomill...
 
 While I agree that it is not ideal having so few programs running,
 shutting down the server is even worse, or not?

If it runs stable for a while, people will return.


Folkert van Heusden

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Christoph Birk]

On May 23, 2015, at 12:40 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:
 24/7 is only useful, if other than open source bots are run on the
 server, otherwise the author can run it simply on gomill...

While I agree that it is not ideal having so few programs running,
shutting down the server is even worse, or not?

Christoph

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Christoph Birk]

On May 22, 2015, at 10:46 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:
 I wonder, if it would help to put it up once a week or so, with announcement, 
 and take it down again, if the number of bots falls below 5 or so?

I am not actively developing a bot, but IMHO without being up
24/7 CGOS is not very useful.

Christoph

---
Science advances one funeral at a time -- Max Planck



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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Detlef Schmicker]

OK,

it was up for about 3 weeks now for 9x9, 19x19 and 25x25 (with a gnugo 
anchor running all the time on every boardsize), with very few short 
breaks (I had to reboot my system due to using a MIDI keyboard:) I am 
not sure, if the bots reconnected automatically, or if the authors 
reconnected the manually, maybe somebody has a feed back on this.


Not too many bots connected, but 13x13 on cgos.boardspace.net is quite 
empty too.


I wonder, if it would help to put it up once a week or so, with 
announcement, and take it down again, if the number of bots falls below 
5 or so?

Maybe this would bring more bots connect at the same time?!
I do not have the resource (and do not want to spend the energy costs) 
to keep a number of strong open source bots up, so bots from 900 to 
2700ELO could use cgos with some sense.


Detlef


Am 02.05.2015 um 18:18 schrieb Detlef Schmicker:
8084 for 25x25 with GnuGo 3.8 as ELO 1800 anachor is up for a while 
now :)


9x9 too, (13x13 I will not set up, original cgos is running fine on 
13x13)


Detlef

Am 02.05.2015 um 07:21 schrieb Detlef Schmicker:

Hi,

I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is 
not optimal of cause :(


physik.selfhost.eu

Ports:
8080 (webinterface)
8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to 
have it permanently running still to be seen.
I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I 
set up everything correctly.
I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the 
same machine


future plan is:
8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
(you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes 
are switched on.



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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Detlef Schmicker]

Hi,

I really did not do a lot:

mainly I run make in the server directory, and got an error message that 
the sqlite version did not match (after trying to start or imediatly, I 
do not remember)


cgos.vfs/lib/sqlite3/pkgIndex.tcl:package ifneeded sqlite3 3.3.5

this line had 3.3.4

now I start with
gnome-terminal --tab -e ./cgos-linux-x86_64 cgos19.cfg --tab -e 
./webuild-linux-x86_64 cgos19.cfg --tab -e ./http_server.sh --tab -e 
./cgosGtp-linux-x86_64 -c gnugo-3.8-a0.cfg


with for web serving

detlef@ubuntu-i7:~/cgosboar$ cat http_server.sh
#!/bin/bash
cd public_html
python -m SimpleHTTPServer 8080

to have all 19x19 in one gnome-terminal

As you see I run the binaries produced, not the way in the 
install.readme file.


This is what my sources looks like, it is some months ago that I 
downloaded them..


http://physik.de/cgossource.tar.gz


My 9x9 webbuild sometimes crashes with database locked, I think this is 
because at the moment the games are very fast, but we will see



Detlef

P.S.: I do not have tcl experience, so repacking would be try and error


Am 03.05.2015 um 07:35 schrieb Joshua Shriver:

Would you be willing to help me revitalize cgos.computergo.org?  I can
even give you ssh access.

This we your server can sit on a dedicated IP/domain  and we can kinda
refresh things a bit and have a clean work/server space.

Just let me know.
-Josh

I'm still curious how you got around the myriad of SQLite issues. I
know when I tried running local, I had to repackage the tclkit server
by copying a local built sqlite.so. file
Lots of kinks and issues, but to be honest you are doing a better job
at me at understanding/running it.

So I can at least offer dedicated space.

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:

8084 for 25x25 with GnuGo 3.8 as ELO 1800 anachor is up for a while now :)

9x9 too, (13x13 I will not set up, original cgos is running fine on 13x13)

Detlef

Am 02.05.2015 um 07:21 schrieb Detlef Schmicker:

Hi,

I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
optimal of cause :(

physik.selfhost.eu

Ports:
8080 (webinterface)
8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to have
it permanently running still to be seen.
I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set up
everything correctly.
I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
machine

future plan is:
8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
(you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
switched on.


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Joshua Shriver]

BTW what version of Linux are you using?  Know CGOS is heavily
dependant on x64 systems.  Mostly due to library issues.

-Josh

On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 2:02 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:
 Hi,

 I really did not do a lot:

 mainly I run make in the server directory, and got an error message that the
 sqlite version did not match (after trying to start or imediatly, I do not
 remember)

 cgos.vfs/lib/sqlite3/pkgIndex.tcl:package ifneeded sqlite3 3.3.5

 this line had 3.3.4

 now I start with
 gnome-terminal --tab -e ./cgos-linux-x86_64 cgos19.cfg --tab -e
 ./webuild-linux-x86_64 cgos19.cfg --tab -e ./http_server.sh --tab -e
 ./cgosGtp-linux-x86_64 -c gnugo-3.8-a0.cfg

 with for web serving

 detlef@ubuntu-i7:~/cgosboar$ cat http_server.sh
 #!/bin/bash
 cd public_html
 python -m SimpleHTTPServer 8080

 to have all 19x19 in one gnome-terminal

 As you see I run the binaries produced, not the way in the install.readme
 file.

 This is what my sources looks like, it is some months ago that I downloaded
 them..

 http://physik.de/cgossource.tar.gz


 My 9x9 webbuild sometimes crashes with database locked, I think this is
 because at the moment the games are very fast, but we will see


 Detlef

 P.S.: I do not have tcl experience, so repacking would be try and error


 Am 03.05.2015 um 07:35 schrieb Joshua Shriver:

 Would you be willing to help me revitalize cgos.computergo.org?  I can
 even give you ssh access.

 This we your server can sit on a dedicated IP/domain  and we can kinda
 refresh things a bit and have a clean work/server space.

 Just let me know.
 -Josh

 I'm still curious how you got around the myriad of SQLite issues. I
 know when I tried running local, I had to repackage the tclkit server
 by copying a local built sqlite.so. file
 Lots of kinks and issues, but to be honest you are doing a better job
 at me at understanding/running it.

 So I can at least offer dedicated space.

 On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:

 8084 for 25x25 with GnuGo 3.8 as ELO 1800 anachor is up for a while now
 :)

 9x9 too, (13x13 I will not set up, original cgos is running fine on
 13x13)

 Detlef

 Am 02.05.2015 um 07:21 schrieb Detlef Schmicker:

 Hi,

 I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
 optimal of cause :(

 physik.selfhost.eu

 Ports:
 8080 (webinterface)
 8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

 This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to
 have
 it permanently running still to be seen.
 I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set
 up
 everything correctly.
 I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
 machine

 future plan is:
 8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
 (you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
 switched on.


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Joshua Shriver]

Aye sqlite is nice but quirky at times.  Planning to use MySQL in my
own version.

Thanks for the snapshot!
-Josh



On Sun, May 3, 2015 at 2:02 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:
 Hi,

 I really did not do a lot:

 mainly I run make in the server directory, and got an error message that the
 sqlite version did not match (after trying to start or imediatly, I do not
 remember)

 cgos.vfs/lib/sqlite3/pkgIndex.tcl:package ifneeded sqlite3 3.3.5

 this line had 3.3.4

 now I start with
 gnome-terminal --tab -e ./cgos-linux-x86_64 cgos19.cfg --tab -e
 ./webuild-linux-x86_64 cgos19.cfg --tab -e ./http_server.sh --tab -e
 ./cgosGtp-linux-x86_64 -c gnugo-3.8-a0.cfg

 with for web serving

 detlef@ubuntu-i7:~/cgosboar$ cat http_server.sh
 #!/bin/bash
 cd public_html
 python -m SimpleHTTPServer 8080

 to have all 19x19 in one gnome-terminal

 As you see I run the binaries produced, not the way in the install.readme
 file.

 This is what my sources looks like, it is some months ago that I downloaded
 them..

 http://physik.de/cgossource.tar.gz


 My 9x9 webbuild sometimes crashes with database locked, I think this is
 because at the moment the games are very fast, but we will see


 Detlef

 P.S.: I do not have tcl experience, so repacking would be try and error


 Am 03.05.2015 um 07:35 schrieb Joshua Shriver:

 Would you be willing to help me revitalize cgos.computergo.org?  I can
 even give you ssh access.

 This we your server can sit on a dedicated IP/domain  and we can kinda
 refresh things a bit and have a clean work/server space.

 Just let me know.
 -Josh

 I'm still curious how you got around the myriad of SQLite issues. I
 know when I tried running local, I had to repackage the tclkit server
 by copying a local built sqlite.so. file
 Lots of kinks and issues, but to be honest you are doing a better job
 at me at understanding/running it.

 So I can at least offer dedicated space.

 On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:

 8084 for 25x25 with GnuGo 3.8 as ELO 1800 anachor is up for a while now
 :)

 9x9 too, (13x13 I will not set up, original cgos is running fine on
 13x13)

 Detlef

 Am 02.05.2015 um 07:21 schrieb Detlef Schmicker:

 Hi,

 I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
 optimal of cause :(

 physik.selfhost.eu

 Ports:
 8080 (webinterface)
 8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

 This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to
 have
 it permanently running still to be seen.
 I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set
 up
 everything correctly.
 I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
 machine

 future plan is:
 8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
 (you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
 switched on.


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Joshua Shriver]

Working on it :)

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 2:25 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:
 Thanks for connecting!

 Am 02.05.2015 um 08:11 schrieb remi.cou...@free.fr:

 Great! Thanks for your efforts. I have just connected Crazy Stone, and it
 seems to be working.

 My favorite setting would be 9x9 with 7-point komi. But unfortunately, I
 believe CGOS does not support jigo. Would be great if it did.

 I think you are right :(

 set sc [expr $sc - $komi]
 if { $sc  0.0 } {
 set sc [expr -$sc]
 set over W+$sc
 gameover $gid $over 
 return
 } else {
 set over B+$sc
 gameover $gid $over 
 return
 }

 This definitly looks like a jigo is not possible. I am afraid, I will
 probably not go into this. I still hope for a future CGOS replacement :)

 Detlef


 Rémi


 - Mail original -
 De: Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de
 À: computer-go@computer-go.org
 Envoyé: Samedi 2 Mai 2015 14:21:05
 Objet: [Computer-go] CGOS

 Hi,

 I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
 optimal of cause :(

 physik.selfhost.eu

 Ports:
 8080 (webinterface)
 8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

 This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to
 have it permanently running still to be seen.
 I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set
 up everything correctly.
 I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
 machine

 future plan is:
 8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
 (you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
 switched on.


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[remi . coulom]

Great! Thanks for your efforts. I have just connected Crazy Stone, and it seems 
to be working.

My favorite setting would be 9x9 with 7-point komi. But unfortunately, I 
believe CGOS does not support jigo. Would be great if it did.

Rémi


- Mail original -
De: Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de
À: computer-go@computer-go.org
Envoyé: Samedi 2 Mai 2015 14:21:05
Objet: [Computer-go] CGOS

Hi,

I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not 
optimal of cause :(

physik.selfhost.eu

Ports:
8080 (webinterface)
8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to 
have it permanently running still to be seen.
I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set 
up everything correctly.
I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same 
machine

future plan is:
8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
(you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are 
switched on.


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Erik van der Werf]

Baseline for worst play? Why?

Paris Hilton??
Op 2 mei 2015 11:42 schreef folkert folk...@vanheusden.com:

 I'm running parishilton it now so that you have a baseline for the
 worst play.

 On Sat, May 02, 2015 at 07:21:05AM +0200, Detlef Schmicker wrote:
  Hi,
 
  I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
  optimal of cause :(
 
  physik.selfhost.eu
 
  Ports:
  8080 (webinterface)
  8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)
 
  This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to
 have
  it permanently running still to be seen.
  I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set up
  everything correctly.
  I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
  machine
 
  future plan is:
  8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
  (you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
  switched on.
 
 
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 --
 MultiTail is een flexibele tool voor het volgen van logfiles en
 uitvoer van commando's. Filteren, van kleur voorzien, mergen,
 'diff-view', etc. http://www.vanheusden.com/multitail/
 --
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[folkert]

So that bad players are not getting 0 elo.

On Sat, May 02, 2015 at 11:59:17AM +0200, Erik van der Werf wrote:
 Baseline for worst play? Why?
 
 Paris Hilton??
 Op 2 mei 2015 11:42 schreef folkert folk...@vanheusden.com:
 
  I'm running parishilton it now so that you have a baseline for the
  worst play.
 
  On Sat, May 02, 2015 at 07:21:05AM +0200, Detlef Schmicker wrote:
   Hi,
  
   I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
   optimal of cause :(
  
   physik.selfhost.eu
  
   Ports:
   8080 (webinterface)
   8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)
  
   This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to
  have
   it permanently running still to be seen.
   I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set up
   everything correctly.
   I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
   machine
  
   future plan is:
   8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
   (you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
   switched on.
  
  
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  Folkert van Heusden
 
  --
  MultiTail is een flexibele tool voor het volgen van logfiles en
  uitvoer van commando's. Filteren, van kleur voorzien, mergen,
  'diff-view', etc. http://www.vanheusden.com/multitail/
  --
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-- 

Multitail - gibkaja utilita po sledovaniju log-fajlov i vyvoda
kommand. Fil'trovanie, raskrašivanie, slijanie, vizual'noe sravnenie,
i t.d.  http://www.vanheusden.com/multitail/
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Joshua Shriver]

Forgot to mention there is another table called anchors.  Basically it
just has gnugo and set to (1800?) if memory serves.  This gets used in
bayeselo for comparison calculations.

-Josh
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Detlef Schmicker]

Great,

for the mean time: Do you have an idea, how the bayeselo rating is 
produced? My cgos source does not seem to include it?


The archives are probably a hand made script?!

Detlef

Am 02.05.2015 um 09:25 schrieb Joshua Shriver:

Working on it :)

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 2:25 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:

Thanks for connecting!

Am 02.05.2015 um 08:11 schrieb remi.cou...@free.fr:

Great! Thanks for your efforts. I have just connected Crazy Stone, and it
seems to be working.

My favorite setting would be 9x9 with 7-point komi. But unfortunately, I
believe CGOS does not support jigo. Would be great if it did.

I think you are right :(

set sc [expr $sc - $komi]
 if { $sc  0.0 } {
 set sc [expr -$sc]
 set over W+$sc
 gameover $gid $over 
 return
 } else {
 set over B+$sc
 gameover $gid $over 
 return
 }

This definitly looks like a jigo is not possible. I am afraid, I will
probably not go into this. I still hope for a future CGOS replacement :)

Detlef


Rémi


- Mail original -
De: Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de
À: computer-go@computer-go.org
Envoyé: Samedi 2 Mai 2015 14:21:05
Objet: [Computer-go] CGOS

Hi,

I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
optimal of cause :(

physik.selfhost.eu

Ports:
8080 (webinterface)
8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to
have it permanently running still to be seen.
I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set
up everything correctly.
I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
machine

future plan is:
8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
(you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
switched on.


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[folkert]

I'm running parishilton it now so that you have a baseline for the
worst play.

On Sat, May 02, 2015 at 07:21:05AM +0200, Detlef Schmicker wrote:
 Hi,
 
 I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
 optimal of cause :(
 
 physik.selfhost.eu
 
 Ports:
 8080 (webinterface)
 8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)
 
 This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to have
 it permanently running still to be seen.
 I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set up
 everything correctly.
 I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
 machine
 
 future plan is:
 8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
 (you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
 switched on.
 
 
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Joshua Shriver]

If you're using the github source for CGOS, (Don's)  CGOS uses an
external program. Basically dumps all games from the database, runs
bayeselo takes results and pushes back to the sqlite for the official
rating. But it doesn't seem to always work or update properly and if
the DB gets messed up on update it seems to mess up the cgos server
itself. This was one big reason I've had trouble getting 9x9 and 19x19
back up.

I'll have to check the crontab but it should show a tcl script that
fires off a sqlite3 dump and feeds bayeselo.
Did you make any changes to the git source to get it to run ok?
-Josh

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:28 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:
 Great,

 for the mean time: Do you have an idea, how the bayeselo rating is produced?
 My cgos source does not seem to include it?

 The archives are probably a hand made script?!

 Detlef

 Am 02.05.2015 um 09:25 schrieb Joshua Shriver:

 Working on it :)

 On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 2:25 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:

 Thanks for connecting!

 Am 02.05.2015 um 08:11 schrieb remi.cou...@free.fr:

 Great! Thanks for your efforts. I have just connected Crazy Stone, and
 it
 seems to be working.

 My favorite setting would be 9x9 with 7-point komi. But unfortunately, I
 believe CGOS does not support jigo. Would be great if it did.

 I think you are right :(

 set sc [expr $sc - $komi]
  if { $sc  0.0 } {
  set sc [expr -$sc]
  set over W+$sc
  gameover $gid $over 
  return
  } else {
  set over B+$sc
  gameover $gid $over 
  return
  }

 This definitly looks like a jigo is not possible. I am afraid, I will
 probably not go into this. I still hope for a future CGOS replacement
 :)

 Detlef

 Rémi


 - Mail original -
 De: Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de
 À: computer-go@computer-go.org
 Envoyé: Samedi 2 Mai 2015 14:21:05
 Objet: [Computer-go] CGOS

 Hi,

 I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
 optimal of cause :(

 physik.selfhost.eu

 Ports:
 8080 (webinterface)
 8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

 This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to
 have it permanently running still to be seen.
 I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set
 up everything correctly.
 I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
 machine

 future plan is:
 8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
 (you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
 switched on.


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Detlef Schmicker]

Thanks for connecting!

Am 02.05.2015 um 08:11 schrieb remi.cou...@free.fr:

Great! Thanks for your efforts. I have just connected Crazy Stone, and it seems 
to be working.

My favorite setting would be 9x9 with 7-point komi. But unfortunately, I 
believe CGOS does not support jigo. Would be great if it did.

I think you are right :(

set sc [expr $sc - $komi]
if { $sc  0.0 } {
set sc [expr -$sc]
set over W+$sc
gameover $gid $over 
return
} else {
set over B+$sc
gameover $gid $over 
return
}

This definitly looks like a jigo is not possible. I am afraid, I will 
probably not go into this. I still hope for a future CGOS replacement :)


Detlef



Rémi


- Mail original -
De: Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de
À: computer-go@computer-go.org
Envoyé: Samedi 2 Mai 2015 14:21:05
Objet: [Computer-go] CGOS

Hi,

I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
optimal of cause :(

physik.selfhost.eu

Ports:
8080 (webinterface)
8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to
have it permanently running still to be seen.
I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set
up everything correctly.
I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
machine

future plan is:
8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
(you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
switched on.


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Detlef Schmicker]

8084 for 25x25 with GnuGo 3.8 as ELO 1800 anachor is up for a while now :)

9x9 too, (13x13 I will not set up, original cgos is running fine on 13x13)

Detlef

Am 02.05.2015 um 07:21 schrieb Detlef Schmicker:

Hi,

I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is 
not optimal of cause :(


physik.selfhost.eu

Ports:
8080 (webinterface)
8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to 
have it permanently running still to be seen.
I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set 
up everything correctly.
I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the 
same machine


future plan is:
8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
(you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes 
are switched on.



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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Detlef Schmicker]

OK, I will not set bayeselo for now, happy if basics are working:)

No, I did not change anything but the version number of sqlite3 (from 
3.3.4 to 3.3.5 or so), the version offered by ubuntu 12.04


Only changed the directories in the cgos19.cfg and  used SQLite Browser 
to open the cgos.state database (produced after the first start) and 
added the anachor in the anachor table.


Now I have 4 processes up: cgos, webbuild, anachor gnugo and a pyhton -m 
SimpleHTTPServer



Detlef

Am 02.05.2015 um 09:33 schrieb Joshua Shriver:

If you're using the github source for CGOS, (Don's)  CGOS uses an
external program. Basically dumps all games from the database, runs
bayeselo takes results and pushes back to the sqlite for the official
rating. But it doesn't seem to always work or update properly and if
the DB gets messed up on update it seems to mess up the cgos server
itself. This was one big reason I've had trouble getting 9x9 and 19x19
back up.

I'll have to check the crontab but it should show a tcl script that
fires off a sqlite3 dump and feeds bayeselo.
Did you make any changes to the git source to get it to run ok?
-Josh

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 3:28 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:

Great,

for the mean time: Do you have an idea, how the bayeselo rating is produced?
My cgos source does not seem to include it?

The archives are probably a hand made script?!

Detlef

Am 02.05.2015 um 09:25 schrieb Joshua Shriver:

Working on it :)

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 2:25 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:

Thanks for connecting!

Am 02.05.2015 um 08:11 schrieb remi.cou...@free.fr:

Great! Thanks for your efforts. I have just connected Crazy Stone, and
it
seems to be working.

My favorite setting would be 9x9 with 7-point komi. But unfortunately, I
believe CGOS does not support jigo. Would be great if it did.

I think you are right :(

set sc [expr $sc - $komi]
  if { $sc  0.0 } {
  set sc [expr -$sc]
  set over W+$sc
  gameover $gid $over 
  return
  } else {
  set over B+$sc
  gameover $gid $over 
  return
  }

This definitly looks like a jigo is not possible. I am afraid, I will
probably not go into this. I still hope for a future CGOS replacement
:)

Detlef


Rémi


- Mail original -
De: Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de
À: computer-go@computer-go.org
Envoyé: Samedi 2 Mai 2015 14:21:05
Objet: [Computer-go] CGOS

Hi,

I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
optimal of cause :(

physik.selfhost.eu

Ports:
8080 (webinterface)
8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to
have it permanently running still to be seen.
I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set
up everything correctly.
I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
machine

future plan is:
8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
(you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
switched on.


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns,


Thanks!
I could start Aya.
http://physik.selfhost.eu:8080/19x19/standings.html

By the way, 

different winrates against aya_1k and fuego_10k or pachi_10k, 


This seems it was just unlucky against pachi and fuego.
I stop them. Thank you for running.

Hiroshi Yamashita



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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Joshua Shriver]

Would you be willing to help me revitalize cgos.computergo.org?  I can
even give you ssh access.

This we your server can sit on a dedicated IP/domain  and we can kinda
refresh things a bit and have a clean work/server space.

Just let me know.
-Josh

I'm still curious how you got around the myriad of SQLite issues. I
know when I tried running local, I had to repackage the tclkit server
by copying a local built sqlite.so. file
Lots of kinks and issues, but to be honest you are doing a better job
at me at understanding/running it.

So I can at least offer dedicated space.

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:
 8084 for 25x25 with GnuGo 3.8 as ELO 1800 anachor is up for a while now :)

 9x9 too, (13x13 I will not set up, original cgos is running fine on 13x13)

 Detlef

 Am 02.05.2015 um 07:21 schrieb Detlef Schmicker:

 Hi,

 I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
 optimal of cause :(

 physik.selfhost.eu

 Ports:
 8080 (webinterface)
 8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

 This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to have
 it permanently running still to be seen.
 I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set up
 everything correctly.
 I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
 machine

 future plan is:
 8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
 (you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
 switched on.


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Joshua Shriver]

Also how good are you and un-tcl packing and rebuilding?  Would LOVE
to have native packages with the cgos.computergo.org hard coded if
possible.
Anyway would love to work with you.

Side note, any OS X people here willing in the future to make OS X
client/view compiles from the future github? If we can get/KEEP the
current TCL just working for 9x9/13x13/19x19 I'm all game for that
since it JUST worked.

I already have a github up for my new open source CGOS I'm writing,
but want to get 9,13,19 running smoothly and open as possible till
then.

-Josh


On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 12:18 PM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:
 8084 for 25x25 with GnuGo 3.8 as ELO 1800 anachor is up for a while now :)

 9x9 too, (13x13 I will not set up, original cgos is running fine on 13x13)

 Detlef

 Am 02.05.2015 um 07:21 schrieb Detlef Schmicker:

 Hi,

 I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not
 optimal of cause :(

 physik.selfhost.eu

 Ports:
 8080 (webinterface)
 8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

 This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to have
 it permanently running still to be seen.
 I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set up
 everything correctly.
 I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same
 machine

 future plan is:
 8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
 (you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are
 switched on.


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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS

[Christoph Birk]

On May 1, 2015, at 10:21 PM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:
 I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not 
 optimal of cause :(

Great, I will try to run ‘myctest’ on Monday,
Christoph

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[Computer-go] CGOS

[Detlef Schmicker]

Hi,

I set up a CGOS server at home. It is connected via dyndns, which is not 
optimal of cause :(


physik.selfhost.eu

Ports:
8080 (webinterface)
8083 (19x19, GnuGo 3.8 set to ELO 1800 as anachor)

This is mainly for testing, if I get CGOS up correctly, what to do to 
have it permanently running still to be seen.
I am not able to test the connection from the outside, hopefully I set 
up everything correctly.
I might stop the server for the tournament on sunday, as it is the same 
machine


future plan is:
8081 for 9x9 8082 for 13x13 and 8084 for 25x25.
(you will see on the web interface, as soon as the other boardsizes are 
switched on.



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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Hiroshi Yamashita]

Hi,

e.g. Aya783a_50 (is it 50 playouts?! seems to slow for that or running 


Yes it is 50 playouts, and It waits 4sec per move. Also gnugo anchor uses
4 sec wait. Without wait,  gnugo spends a lot of cpu time when there are
only short thinking programs. I also run pachi, mogo and fuego 10k.
I wish the system, if there is new program,  some programs run automatically 
and stop.

Regards,
Hiroshi Yamashita

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Urban Hafner]

On Thu, Apr 9, 2015 at 4:14 PM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:

 Hi, I just started playing on 13x13 again, very busy :)


It is you that's running all the strong bots? If so, thank you! My second
copy of GnuGo had reached an ELO rating of almost 1900 these last days, but
now it's back down to almost 1800 (where it should be).


 One feature request:
 give the programmer the chance, to add some information to the bot (in the
 configuration file?!):


Yes, a description field would definitely be nice.

Urban
-- 
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Twitter: https://twitter.com/ujh
Homepage: http://www.urbanhafner.com/
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Detlef Schmicker]

Hi, I just started playing on 13x13 again, very busy :)

One feature request:
give the programmer the chance, to add some information to the bot (in 
the configuration file?!):


e.g. Aya783a_50 (is it 50 playouts?! seems to slow for that or running 
on an old mobile :)


Detlef

Am 06.04.2015 um 14:21 schrieb Joshua Shriver:

This sounds like a good idea and I haven't ruled out Java, but not the
biggest fan. But would rather do it in Java than say C.

I was leaning toward C# since it's a very popular and portable
language. The code would be portable among Win/Lin/OS X heck even
Android/iOS (for viewer)  due to Xamarin.

I'm working on the first baby-steps of just getting a very basic
server/client model up and running and as you said relying more on GTP
and the engines to do more self-checking and use cgos only as a
gateway (till next update).

Going to use mysql/mariasql instead of lightsql. Then I can use php
for the backend webwork.

I'm going to re-use some of the webcode I wrote years ago for OICS as
well so that will kickstart that portion a bit.

Will update more as things progress.
-Josh

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 6:13 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:

What about just start the project on github or https://bitbucket.org/ (is
not bad at forking and merging)

Open an issue for the discussion and off we go:)

When I was thinking of a quick solution I was thinking about gogui, which
supports most of the game handling already.

http://gogui.sourceforge.net/doc/reference-twogtp.html

GoGui is well tested and widely used, as far as I know. The twogtp tool is
used e.g. in CLOP and works really great. A observer program may be added to
judge the resulting position, e.g.
gnugo...

The first server / client would not have to do much more than authorization
and afterwords tunneling gtp to get it playing and logging the games and
results?!

The result logs would be used to compute the ratings (possibly by a
independend process)?!

I have no special wishes about programming language, but as kgsclient
requires java anyway, java dependency is no additional dependency for new go
programmer...

I do not love java, but if one thinks of integrating the server into gogui
it might be a good idea to use?!

I would just start and try connecting Markus Enzenberger (author of GoGui
later, if he is interested in merging?!)

I would definitely work on the project, but it should have a quick start and
room for improvement later:)

Detlef



Am 03.04.2015 um 16:11 schrieb Joshua Shriver:

Agree as well.  But would like to offer both options.   Planning to
use github and make it 100% open source.

-Josh

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Christoph Birk
b...@obs.carnegiescience.edu wrote:

On Apr 3, 2015, at 5:40 AM, folkert folk...@vanheusden.com wrote:

My goal is to move away from interpreted languages and release SOLID
.exe or bin for unices.

Are you talking about servers or clients there?

For clients, PLEASE do not release binaries, release sources. No sane
linux user installs random binaries.

I 100% agree,
Christoph

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Petr Baudis]

  Hi!

  I think Detlef is thinking right about it - if I had the time to work
on CGOS, I would look at reusing whatever is done already in the area of
having programs play against each other, and extending that with
literally just networking + userdb + rating + autopairing + webreports.

  Gogui (in Java) is one obvious starting point, though it seems more
sensible to me to reuse the gogui classes in your project rather than
building CGOS within the gogui project.  Another possible starting point
is gomill (Python).  At any rate, I think that if you reuse existing
work, you should be looking at a relatively small project to do,
actually!

  (But this is all just kibitz from me, of course.)

On Mon, Apr 06, 2015 at 12:13:37PM +0200, Detlef Schmicker wrote:
 What about just start the project on github or
 https://bitbucket.org/ (is not bad at forking and merging)
 
 Open an issue for the discussion and off we go:)
 
 When I was thinking of a quick solution I was thinking about gogui,
 which supports most of the game handling already.
 
 http://gogui.sourceforge.net/doc/reference-twogtp.html
 
 GoGui is well tested and widely used, as far as I know. The twogtp
 tool is used e.g. in CLOP and works really great. A observer program
 may be added to judge the resulting position, e.g.
 gnugo...
 
 The first server / client would not have to do much more than
 authorization and afterwords tunneling gtp to get it playing and
 logging the games and results?!
 
 The result logs would be used to compute the ratings (possibly by a
 independend process)?!
 
 I have no special wishes about programming language, but as
 kgsclient requires java anyway, java dependency is no additional
 dependency for new go programmer...
 
 I do not love java, but if one thinks of integrating the server into
 gogui it might be a good idea to use?!

-- 
Petr Baudis
If you do not work on an important problem, it's unlikely
you'll do important work.  -- R. Hamming
http://www.cs.virginia.edu/~robins/YouAndYourResearch.html
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Detlef Schmicker]

What about just start the project on github or https://bitbucket.org/ 
(is not bad at forking and merging)


Open an issue for the discussion and off we go:)

When I was thinking of a quick solution I was thinking about gogui, 
which supports most of the game handling already.


http://gogui.sourceforge.net/doc/reference-twogtp.html

GoGui is well tested and widely used, as far as I know. The twogtp tool 
is used e.g. in CLOP and works really great. A observer program may be 
added to judge the resulting position, e.g.

gnugo...

The first server / client would not have to do much more than 
authorization and afterwords tunneling gtp to get it playing and logging 
the games and results?!


The result logs would be used to compute the ratings (possibly by a 
independend process)?!


I have no special wishes about programming language, but as kgsclient 
requires java anyway, java dependency is no additional dependency for 
new go programmer...


I do not love java, but if one thinks of integrating the server into 
gogui it might be a good idea to use?!


I would just start and try connecting Markus Enzenberger (author of 
GoGui later, if he is interested in merging?!)


I would definitely work on the project, but it should have a quick start 
and room for improvement later:)


Detlef



Am 03.04.2015 um 16:11 schrieb Joshua Shriver:

Agree as well.  But would like to offer both options.   Planning to
use github and make it 100% open source.

-Josh

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Christoph Birk
b...@obs.carnegiescience.edu wrote:

On Apr 3, 2015, at 5:40 AM, folkert folk...@vanheusden.com wrote:

My goal is to move away from interpreted languages and release SOLID
.exe or bin for unices.

Are you talking about servers or clients there?

For clients, PLEASE do not release binaries, release sources. No sane
linux user installs random binaries.

I 100% agree,
Christoph

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Joshua Shriver]

This sounds like a good idea and I haven't ruled out Java, but not the
biggest fan. But would rather do it in Java than say C.

I was leaning toward C# since it's a very popular and portable
language. The code would be portable among Win/Lin/OS X heck even
Android/iOS (for viewer)  due to Xamarin.

I'm working on the first baby-steps of just getting a very basic
server/client model up and running and as you said relying more on GTP
and the engines to do more self-checking and use cgos only as a
gateway (till next update).

Going to use mysql/mariasql instead of lightsql. Then I can use php
for the backend webwork.

I'm going to re-use some of the webcode I wrote years ago for OICS as
well so that will kickstart that portion a bit.

Will update more as things progress.
-Josh

On Mon, Apr 6, 2015 at 6:13 AM, Detlef Schmicker d...@physik.de wrote:
 What about just start the project on github or https://bitbucket.org/ (is
 not bad at forking and merging)

 Open an issue for the discussion and off we go:)

 When I was thinking of a quick solution I was thinking about gogui, which
 supports most of the game handling already.

 http://gogui.sourceforge.net/doc/reference-twogtp.html

 GoGui is well tested and widely used, as far as I know. The twogtp tool is
 used e.g. in CLOP and works really great. A observer program may be added to
 judge the resulting position, e.g.
 gnugo...

 The first server / client would not have to do much more than authorization
 and afterwords tunneling gtp to get it playing and logging the games and
 results?!

 The result logs would be used to compute the ratings (possibly by a
 independend process)?!

 I have no special wishes about programming language, but as kgsclient
 requires java anyway, java dependency is no additional dependency for new go
 programmer...

 I do not love java, but if one thinks of integrating the server into gogui
 it might be a good idea to use?!

 I would just start and try connecting Markus Enzenberger (author of GoGui
 later, if he is interested in merging?!)

 I would definitely work on the project, but it should have a quick start and
 room for improvement later:)

 Detlef



 Am 03.04.2015 um 16:11 schrieb Joshua Shriver:

 Agree as well.  But would like to offer both options.   Planning to
 use github and make it 100% open source.

 -Josh

 On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 10:05 AM, Christoph Birk
 b...@obs.carnegiescience.edu wrote:

 On Apr 3, 2015, at 5:40 AM, folkert folk...@vanheusden.com wrote:

 My goal is to move away from interpreted languages and release SOLID
 .exe or bin for unices.

 Are you talking about servers or clients there?

 For clients, PLEASE do not release binaries, release sources. No sane
 linux user installs random binaries.

 I 100% agree,
 Christoph

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Hugh Perkins]

C# is a nice language, but for anything open-source, the fact that it
was created by Microsoft kind of 'taints' it.  Which is not to say
that java is very untainted these days, being owned by Oracle...

From a practical point of view, java does most things that C# does,
with a few obvious exceptions:
- availability of generic types at runtime, the whole 'type erasure
thing'.  Not having the generic types available at runtime kind of
sucks, and has a whole set of knock-on issues
- delegates and events.  But you can just use interfaces and adapter
classes for these, not a big deal, I dont miss these; not like I do
runtime generic type information

for the whole 'mono lets you run C# on linux' thing, my epxerience of
this was that it's technically true, in the sense that 'java doesnt
use more memory than c' is in some senses technically arguable, but
not quite so true in practice.  Specifically, in my experience,
linking mono to native code is really horrible and hard and slow.
mono compiler is slow, and gives terrible error messages.  I would
rank the 3 'languages' as follows:

C# on .net (better-than) java (better-than) c# on mono

Hugh
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Urban Hafner]

Joshua,

I think you should just pick the language(s) that keep YOU motivated. The only 
hard requirement seems to be that you need the clients to work on Windows, 
Linux, and Mac OS X. A web framework seems to exist in every language these 
days so that doesn't really narrow down the selection. I believe you shouldn't 
use a language that you don't personally enjoy using as you'll never know if 
anybody else will work on the project. But if you don't work on it it's 100% 
sure that you won't find any collaborators. 

Urban

Von meinem iPhone gesendet

 Am 03.04.2015 um 03:02 schrieb Joshua Shriver jshri...@gmail.com:
 
 BTW I greatly appreciate all the input! and put in TODO.txt
 
 Since I do plan to make this open source and ON github.
 
 Guess I'm looking for helper developers
 
 I own like 12 servers so can host, while keeping the solid boardspace in tact.
 
 
 In fact I just bought 2 more servers, 1 real 1 replication.
 
 Again I'm curios of language??
 
 I'm top at C/Perl for real contimplation
 
 BTW I am a Linux guy true and true since 1994.  But I am DAMN tempted
 to write it in C#. Especially w/ MS OSS .Net framework. WE always had
 mono but right now. That is where I am REALLY leaning.
 
 I don't even know C#,  but good at JAVA despite my hatred for the language 
 lol.
 
 My goal is to move away from interpreted languages and release SOLID
 .exe or bin for unices.
 
 Client viewer, client host for engine.
 
 
 Seriously I am ok now, financially, and my hobby projects are mature.
 I have time to REALLY drive in and make CGOS what it deserves. But
 again it needs a pure re-write lol
 
 
 BTW as the future maintainer, given any/all emails that come from this
 thread. I ALSO appreciate emails from people recommending people.
 
 It's easy to get 20+ ppl saying OMG I want to help.  But I need at
 least 1-2 more core devs outside me, especially if I'm working in a
 language outside my zone.
 
 So I also ask fellow devs to post comments on what language you think
 would be good for now/future prospects.
 
 
 -Josh
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[folkert]

Please write it in something common.
If you target linux I think it is unusual to target .net.
Why not just c++? Proven technology, simple to write in.

On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 09:02:09PM -0400, Joshua Shriver wrote:
 BTW I greatly appreciate all the input! and put in TODO.txt
 
 Since I do plan to make this open source and ON github.
 
 Guess I'm looking for helper developers
 
 I own like 12 servers so can host, while keeping the solid boardspace in tact.
 
 
 In fact I just bought 2 more servers, 1 real 1 replication.
 
 Again I'm curios of language??
 
 I'm top at C/Perl for real contimplation
 
 BTW I am a Linux guy true and true since 1994.  But I am DAMN tempted
 to write it in C#. Especially w/ MS OSS .Net framework. WE always had
 mono but right now. That is where I am REALLY leaning.
 
 I don't even know C#,  but good at JAVA despite my hatred for the language 
 lol.
 
 My goal is to move away from interpreted languages and release SOLID
 .exe or bin for unices.
 
 Client viewer, client host for engine.
 
 
 Seriously I am ok now, financially, and my hobby projects are mature.
 I have time to REALLY drive in and make CGOS what it deserves. But
 again it needs a pure re-write lol
 
 
 BTW as the future maintainer, given any/all emails that come from this
 thread. I ALSO appreciate emails from people recommending people.
 
 It's easy to get 20+ ppl saying OMG I want to help.  But I need at
 least 1-2 more core devs outside me, especially if I'm working in a
 language outside my zone.
 
 So I also ask fellow devs to post comments on what language you think
 would be good for now/future prospects.
 
 
 -Josh
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Igor Polyakov]

C++ is not simple at all. It's probably the biggest language out there 
with the most caveats.


On 2015-04-03 0:13, folkert wrote:

Please write it in something common.
If you target linux I think it is unusual to target .net.
Why not just c++? Proven technology, simple to write in.

On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 09:02:09PM -0400, Joshua Shriver wrote:

BTW I greatly appreciate all the input! and put in TODO.txt

Since I do plan to make this open source and ON github.

Guess I'm looking for helper developers

I own like 12 servers so can host, while keeping the solid boardspace in tact.


In fact I just bought 2 more servers, 1 real 1 replication.

Again I'm curios of language??

I'm top at C/Perl for real contimplation

BTW I am a Linux guy true and true since 1994.  But I am DAMN tempted
to write it in C#. Especially w/ MS OSS .Net framework. WE always had
mono but right now. That is where I am REALLY leaning.

I don't even know C#,  but good at JAVA despite my hatred for the language lol.

My goal is to move away from interpreted languages and release SOLID
.exe or bin for unices.

Client viewer, client host for engine.


Seriously I am ok now, financially, and my hobby projects are mature.
I have time to REALLY drive in and make CGOS what it deserves. But
again it needs a pure re-write lol


BTW as the future maintainer, given any/all emails that come from this
thread. I ALSO appreciate emails from people recommending people.

It's easy to get 20+ ppl saying OMG I want to help.  But I need at
least 1-2 more core devs outside me, especially if I'm working in a
language outside my zone.

So I also ask fellow devs to post comments on what language you think
would be good for now/future prospects.


-Josh
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Chad Williamson]

The desire for a compiled language with a web and Linux affinity and a
spec short enough to actually understand basically describes the
motivation of Go(lang) (http://golang.org/), doesn't it?

(As if this subject didn't have enough puns...)

On Fri, Apr 3, 2015 at 2:21 AM, Igor Polyakov
weiqiprogramm...@gmail.com wrote:
 C++ is not simple at all. It's probably the biggest language out there with
 the most caveats.


 On 2015-04-03 0:13, folkert wrote:

 Please write it in something common.
 If you target linux I think it is unusual to target .net.
 Why not just c++? Proven technology, simple to write in.

 On Thu, Apr 02, 2015 at 09:02:09PM -0400, Joshua Shriver wrote:

 BTW I greatly appreciate all the input! and put in TODO.txt

 Since I do plan to make this open source and ON github.

 Guess I'm looking for helper developers

 I own like 12 servers so can host, while keeping the solid boardspace in
 tact.


 In fact I just bought 2 more servers, 1 real 1 replication.

 Again I'm curios of language??

 I'm top at C/Perl for real contimplation

 BTW I am a Linux guy true and true since 1994.  But I am DAMN tempted
 to write it in C#. Especially w/ MS OSS .Net framework. WE always had
 mono but right now. That is where I am REALLY leaning.

 I don't even know C#,  but good at JAVA despite my hatred for the
 language lol.

 My goal is to move away from interpreted languages and release SOLID
 .exe or bin for unices.

 Client viewer, client host for engine.


 Seriously I am ok now, financially, and my hobby projects are mature.
 I have time to REALLY drive in and make CGOS what it deserves. But
 again it needs a pure re-write lol


 BTW as the future maintainer, given any/all emails that come from this
 thread. I ALSO appreciate emails from people recommending people.

 It's easy to get 20+ ppl saying OMG I want to help.  But I need at
 least 1-2 more core devs outside me, especially if I'm working in a
 language outside my zone.

 So I also ask fellow devs to post comments on what language you think
 would be good for now/future prospects.


 -Josh
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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Dave Dyer]

It's easy to get 20+ ppl saying OMG I want to help.  But I need at
least 1-2 more core devs outside me, especially if I'm working in a
language outside my zone.

All I can say is, if you need 1-2 outside collaborators, you better
have a plan B.   Everyone dances to their own tune, and no one wants
to follow anyone else's directions unless there's an agreed higher
calling (such as getting rich, which is clearly not applicable here).

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Re: [Computer-go] CGOS future

[Darren Cook]

 BTW I am a Linux guy true and true since 1994.  But I am DAMN tempted
 to write it in C#.

I use mono on linux [1], and c# is an OK language for this kind of
thing. RestSharp is an interesting library for web service *clients*,
but of course you are writing a server.

Lots of C++ programmers on this list, and C++11 is now quite a safe and
productive language. But socket support sucks. Asio is the best choice,
and it is not at all easy to use or debug; I feel I might just go for
low-level BSD sockets next time. At least then there is a huge body of
working code.

If it was me, personally, I'd hack together a first version in PHP,
using mysql as a DB. You would not believe how many
hacked-together-first-versions in PHP are still running 5 or 10 years
later, because it is good enough.

But node.js might be a better choice. It handles multiple
connections/threads better than PHP, it has ready to go web server
modules and tons of example code, it is fashionable, and there are lots
of jobs for people who can show they've worked on a node.js
server/client project.

 My goal is to move away from interpreted languages and release SOLID
 .exe or bin for unices.

Are you talking about servers or clients there?

Always go for a well-known interpreted language for a server-side
application, unless you are CPU or memory bound. (And if you are you,
you've done something very wrong: Facebook reached half a billion active
users running a PHP back-end; Wikipedia too...)

And using a clearly defined http web server protocol, probably built
around json, and then the clients will take care of themselves: all
modern languages, except C/C++, come with a good web client library, and
a good json library. Just hand out a helper C library, perhaps with a
C++ wrapper API.

Darren

[1]: I then With MonoDevelop, which is actually rather good, but with a
few minor irritating bugs that it seems will never get fixed.

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