date:20101203

A CSS-only lightbox will have many limitations. You cannot have the
same functionality as the example you gave, with only CSS2.
However, here is one good implementation of a css-only lightbox
http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/lightbox-hover.html

~Chetan

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Matthew P. Johnson i...@ecoitsf.com wrote:
 A css lightbox/shadowbox I can put a photo thumbnail gallery in? Essentially
 a web page with applicable code.



 Such a gallery like the one in the following link:



 http://applegateelements.com/new/lightweight%20image%20gallery.shtml



 Sincerely,



 Matthew P. Johnson | Eco I.T.

 708 Bay Road Mill Valley CA 94941 | 415.254.1563 |  http://ecoitsf.com/
 ecoitsf.com

 P Please consider the environment before printing this email.



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Re: [css-d] does anyone know of...

Here is another one http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/gallery.html

~Chetan

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Chetan Crasta chetancra...@gmail.com wrote:
 A CSS-only lightbox will have many limitations. You cannot have the
 same functionality as the example you gave, with only CSS2.
 However, here is one good implementation of a css-only lightbox
 http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/lightbox-hover.html

 ~Chetan

 On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Matthew P. Johnson i...@ecoitsf.com wrote:
 A css lightbox/shadowbox I can put a photo thumbnail gallery in? Essentially
 a web page with applicable code.



 Such a gallery like the one in the following link:



 http://applegateelements.com/new/lightweight%20image%20gallery.shtml



 Sincerely,



 Matthew P. Johnson | Eco I.T.

 708 Bay Road Mill Valley CA 94941 | 415.254.1563 |  http://ecoitsf.com/
 ecoitsf.com

 P Please consider the environment before printing this email.



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Re: [css-d] does anyone know of...

I stand corrected. Here is a CSS-only lightbox, similar to your
example, that works through ingenious use of the object element
(iframe for IE): http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/object-gallery.html

Amazing!
 ~Chetan

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 2:28 PM, Chetan Crasta chetancra...@gmail.com wrote:
 Here is another one http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/gallery.html

 ~Chetan

 On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 2:22 PM, Chetan Crasta chetancra...@gmail.com wrote:
 A CSS-only lightbox will have many limitations. You cannot have the
 same functionality as the example you gave, with only CSS2.
 However, here is one good implementation of a css-only lightbox
 http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/lightbox-hover.html

 ~Chetan

 On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 6:40 AM, Matthew P. Johnson i...@ecoitsf.com wrote:
 A css lightbox/shadowbox I can put a photo thumbnail gallery in? Essentially
 a web page with applicable code.



 Such a gallery like the one in the following link:



 http://applegateelements.com/new/lightweight%20image%20gallery.shtml



 Sincerely,



 Matthew P. Johnson | Eco I.T.

 708 Bay Road Mill Valley CA 94941 | 415.254.1563 |  http://ecoitsf.com/
 ecoitsf.com

 P Please consider the environment before printing this email.



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Re: [css-d] Site Revision

2010-12-03 Thread Climis, Tim

  Lighten up a little, organize it, and make it readable-- or you'll put

 I don't understand you comment: Lighten up a little

I think he means simply that your page is dark.  Contrast your beige patterned 
backgrounds (which look remarkably like my office wallpaper, btw) with his 
solid white.

---Tim
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[css-d] hasLayout triggering best practice

2010-12-03 Thread Barney Carroll

Hi folks, bit of philosophy  CSS for y'all.

A recent project faced a series of late-noticed serious IE6 hasLayout bugs,
and got the team in a panicked discussion in which IE6 bug-fixing best
practice got discussed. I ended up re-reading Ingo Chao's excellent article
'On having layout' http://www.satzansatz.de/cssd/onhavinglayout.html, but
still ended up with a few questions. I was wondering if thelist's CSS
experts might venture answers to these questions:


   1. Could it be argued that *any* layout (necessitating complex
   absolute/relative positioning, overflows, nested lists, etc), carefully
   built with a thorough knowledge of the Trident box model in mind can avoid
   having to artificially trigger hasLayout? In other words, no matter how
   complex a layout's requirements, if it does for whatever specific causes end
   up suffering from mis-positioned or invisible content due to hasLayout,
   could I safely say that it should be able to be constructed without
   resorting to otherwise spurious hasLayout triggers?

   2. Ingo's article repeatedly alludes to the classic MS-proprietary CSS
   zoom:1 trigger being acceptable 'for debug purposes', implying that it
   should be used to help diagnose hasLayout issues but not to treat them in
   production. But then concludes that it may be necessary for IE7, but IE5.5-6
   should instead use height:1%, even though this is obviously a hack in the
   sense that it abuses a property for ulterior purposes (unlike zoom, which
   only affects hasLayout), and will have disastrous effects on any element
   whose parent also has a set height or non-static positioning. Is it
   reasonable to assume that this, along with the article's stated preference
   for conditional comments (rather than CSS syntax-based browser targeting),
   are purely down to a distaste for invalid CSS? I'm not particularly
   interested in the legitimacy of that distaste — but I would be interested if
   there were other reasons I may be missing.


Regards,
Barney Carroll

barney.carr...@gmail.com
07594 506 381
Regards,
Barney Carroll

barney.carr...@gmail.com
07594 506 381
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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: does anyone know of...

 
 A CSS-only lightbox will have many limitations. You cannot have the
 same functionality as the example you gave, with only CSS2.
 However, here is one good implementation of a css-only lightbox
 http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/lightbox-hover.html

fwiw, I would not call this solution a good implementation. It is not
keyboard accessible, it loads all the assets at once (versus on request),
and wrap four block-level elements in each anchor (not a problem in HTML5 I
believe).

--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz
 

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Re: [css-d] hasLayout triggering best practice

2010-12-03 Thread G.Sørtun


 1. Could it be argued that *any* layout (necessitating complex
 absolute/relative positioning, overflows, nested lists, etc),
 carefully built with a thorough knowledge of the Trident box model
 in mind can avoid having to artificially trigger hasLayout?


As co-author of that article and based on years of battling with IE5 - 7 
bugs and peculiarities, I'd say it is impossible to avoid triggering 
hasLayout in/for any real-world layout. No point either, as hasLayout is 
just a weird, early, overdone and pretty buggy version of block 
formatting that all browsers perform as pr. CSS specs...

http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/visuren.html#block-formatting
...and without it we can't achieve the formatting we need in all but the 
most flat and simple designs.



 2. Ingo's article repeatedly alludes to the classic MS-proprietary
 CSS zoom:1 trigger being acceptable 'for debug purposes'...


zoom: 1 is good for debugging since it gets picked up by the W3C CSS 
validator if we forget that we put them there :-)
Not all front-end coders like to have non-valid code in their 
stylesheets - they may like valid badges or whatever, so for them any 
of the other valid properties that will trigger hasLayout may look better.


Myself, I use any property/value that gets the job done, whenever I need 
to trigger hasLayout. Loss of validity because of proprietary IE CSS 
isn't more problematic than use of some mos-, webkit- or o- 
proprietary CSS ... IMO.
Some time more of a problem to avoid hasLayout - as touched on under 
your point 1, so in rare cases we have to hide hasLayout triggers from 
older IE versions or try to override/reset them. Finding out where to do 
what in a given layout is what sometimes consumes a bit more time than I 
like.


regards
Georg
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[css-d] List-mom

2010-12-03 Thread matt1027


Does anyone know an email address for the list-mom?

I sent a message to the published owner-address yesterday and did not 
get any response.


css-d-ow...@lists.css-discuss.org

Thanks,
Matt

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Re: [css-d] hasLayout triggering best practice

Hi Georg,
 
 Myself, I use any property/value that gets the job done, whenever I
 need
 to trigger hasLayout. Loss of validity because of proprietary IE CSS
 isn't more problematic than use of some mos-, webkit- or o-
 proprietary CSS ... IMO.

I do not care much about CSS validation, but I see a difference between
using a proprietary property like zoom and using vendor-specific extensions
[1]. 
Because these are part of the grammar, they are known to the CSS parser: 

'-' + vendor identifier + '-' + meaningful name  
'_' + vendor identifier + '-' + meaningful name  

But I agree with you, I don't see this as problematic.

[1] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#vendor-keywords

--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz

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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: does anyone know of...

@Thierry: All valid criticisms. However, when one wants to do anything
fancy with plain HTML and CSS2, it is often at the cost of semantic
correctness.

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 9:35 PM, Thierry Koblentz n...@tjkdesign.com wrote:

 A CSS-only lightbox will have many limitations. You cannot have the
 same functionality as the example you gave, with only CSS2.
 However, here is one good implementation of a css-only lightbox
 http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/lightbox-hover.html

 fwiw, I would not call this solution a good implementation. It is not
 keyboard accessible, it loads all the assets at once (versus on request),
 and wrap four block-level elements in each anchor (not a problem in HTML5 I
 believe).

 --
 Regards,
 Thierry
 www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz



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Re: [css-d] hasLayout triggering best practice

If having valid stylesheets is important, one could simply apply zoom
using javascript: object.style.zoom=1;

~C

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 10:13 PM, Thierry Koblentz n...@tjkdesign.com wrote:
 Hi Georg,

 Myself, I use any property/value that gets the job done, whenever I
 need
 to trigger hasLayout. Loss of validity because of proprietary IE CSS
 isn't more problematic than use of some mos-, webkit- or o-
 proprietary CSS ... IMO.

 I do not care much about CSS validation, but I see a difference between
 using a proprietary property like zoom and using vendor-specific extensions
 [1].
 Because these are part of the grammar, they are known to the CSS parser:

 '-' + vendor identifier + '-' + meaningful name
 '_' + vendor identifier + '-' + meaningful name

 But I agree with you, I don't see this as problematic.

 [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS21/syndata.html#vendor-keywords

 --
 Regards,
 Thierry
 www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz

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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice

 
 If having valid stylesheets is important, one could simply apply zoom
 using javascript: object.style.zoom=1;
 

But then your presentational layer is bound to the behavior layer :-(

--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz

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[css-d] Span Style Inside Div with PHP Code


Good Afternoon,

Everything I've research tells me this ought to be valid, but the span 
style seems to have no effect.


div class=registercolright
span style=padding-top:20px;
?php
// some code that writes an unordered list
?
/span
/div !-- close registercolright --

I am using this approach (rather than just change the registercolright 
class) because each page where that class is used requires some 
adjustment and I'd prefer, if possible, not to create a large number of 
similar classes.


Apologies for not supplying a URL; I am in the middle of development and 
there are a host of PHP related issues that I'd rather were not set 
loose by testing the page.


Thank you,

Bill

--
216.978.5063

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Re: [css-d] hasLayout triggering best practice

2010-12-03 Thread G.Sørtun


On 03.12.2010 17:43, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

But I agree with you, I don't see this as problematic.


Guess that's what it comes down to when choosing hasLayout triggers or 
other hacks for old IE. I still prefer the phony stylesheet for 
IE/win[1] solution that I have used for years for shoveling corrective 
measures into IE7 and older. It is probably the safest hack for those 
old versions, and I don't find it particularly problematic that both the 
loading of the extra stylesheet and some of its content makes old IE 
slow down a bit either. It gets the job done... :-)


[1] http://www.gunlaug.no/contents/wd_additions_12.html

regards
Georg
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[css-d] BrowserCam Pool

2010-12-03 Thread matt1027


Hi guys,

I am posting this message with permission from the list-mom.  Please 
respond off-list if you are interested, to avoid cluttering everyone 
else's inboxes.


Since 2005 I have been part of group that goes in together on a 
Premium BrowserCam subscription (see info at bottom).  We usually 
have a few that drop out every year and we try to replace them to 
keep the per user cost as low as possible.


This year we have openings for 22 people.  It usually costs us around 
$30 per person for the year which is a great deal because the Premium 
plan costs $1000 a year.


If you would like to get in or have other questions please contact me 
directly, offlist, or better, since I'll be out quite a bit today, 
contact JF Simard, who actually collects the money (via PayPal) and 
sends it in to BrowserCam.


To contact JF please send to both of his email addresses:

j...@netdiver.net
jfsim...@reol.com


Our present subscription expires December 18th so we are trying to do 
this quickly.


If you have any ideas about other venues where we might find some 
additional group members please let us know.


Thanks,
Matt


BowserCam  http://www.browsercam.com/Default2.aspx

Browser Capture - Test your site on a massive number of browsers and 
operating systems.


Device Capture - Test your site on iPhone OS, Android, Blackberry, 
and Windows Mobile.


Remote Access - Login remotely and test mouseovers, Javascript, 
Flash, forms, scripts, security, dynamic layouts, cascading style 
sheets and other platform dependent functionality.  Test on 
Macintoshes, Windows 98, Windows 2000, Windows XP machines, and Linux machines.


Email Capture - Test HTML, RTF and TXT email from an end-user perspective.

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Re: [css-d] Span Style Inside Div with PHP Code

 Everything I've research tells me this ought to be valid, but the span
 style seems to have no effect.
 
 div class=registercolright
 span style=padding-top:20px;
 ?php
  // some code that writes an unordered list
  ?
 /span
 /div !-- close registercolright --


vertical padding will not create vertical space on inline elements


--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz

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Re: [css-d] Span Style Inside Div with PHP Code


Many thanks, Thierry. Will settle for additional classes.

Bill


On 12/3/2010 12:41 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

Everything I've research tells me this ought to be valid, but thespan
style  seems to have no effect.

div class=registercolright
span style=padding-top:20px;
?php
  // some code that writes an unordered list
  ?
/span
/div  !-- close registercolright --


vertical padding will not create vertical space on inline elements


--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz

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Re: [css-d] Span Style Inside Div with PHP Code

2010-12-03 Thread Climis, Tim

 I am using this approach (rather than just change the registercolright
 class) because each page where that class is used requires some
 adjustment and I'd prefer, if possible, not to create a large number of
 similar classes.

Then don't  Apply multiple classes instead.

div class=registercolright lotsOfSpace

div class=registercolright littleSpace

div class=registercolright oodlesOSpace

The point here is that your registercolright class stays the same and gets 
called everywhere, and then you apply a second class to the div that applies 
varying amounts of whitespace.

You do have lots of very similar classes, (they're all margin-top: something), 
but they're also very small.

---Tim


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Re: [css-d] Span Style Inside Div with PHP Code

Hi Bill,

 Many thanks, Thierry. Will settle for additional classes.

Actually, you should not have a list/list items in that span. So rather than
adding a class you'd better replace that span with a div (which will take
the padding).

As a side note, do you need that additional wrapper? Can't you style 
registercolright  with some padding-top?

--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz


  div class=registercolright
  span style=padding-top:20px;
  ?php
// some code that writes an unordered list
?
  /span
  /div  !-- close registercolright --
 
  vertical padding will not create vertical space on inline elements
 
 
  --
  Regards,
  Thierry
  www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz
 
 
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Re: [css-d] Span Style Inside Div with PHP Code


On 12/3/2010 12:51 PM, Climis, Tim wrote:

I am using this approach (rather than just change the registercolright
class) because each page where that class is used requires some
adjustment and I'd prefer, if possible, not to create a large number of
similar classes.

Then don't  Apply multiple classes instead.

div class=registercolright lotsOfSpace

div class=registercolright littleSpace

div class=registercolright oodlesOSpace

The point here is that your registercolright class stays the same and gets 
called everywhere, and then you apply a second class to the div that applies 
varying amounts of whitespace.

You do have lots of very similar classes, (they're all margin-top: something), 
but they're also very small.


Thanks, Tim. Yes, you are quire right about the proliferation of 
classes, and I did not know about applying a second class. This has been 
the result of learn as I go and it seemed easier (at the time) to 
simply copy a class and make a few adjustment.


Your point is well taken and I'll use it in the future.

Thank you,

Bill

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Re: [css-d] Span Style Inside Div with PHP Code


On 12/3/2010 12:51 PM, Thierry Koblentz wrote:

Hi Bill,


Many thanks, Thierry. Will settle for additional classes.

Actually, you should not have a list/list items in that span. So rather than
adding a class you'd better replace that span with a div (which will take
the padding).

As a side note, do you need that additional wrapper? Can't you style 
registercolright  with some padding-top?


Hi Thierry,

Tim's comments apply here, I think. I use registercolright on multiple 
pages, but the padding requirements of each page vary a little based on 
the content that is being written by the PHP code. In some cases I want 
the ul to write near the natural top of the div 
class=registercolright and on other pages to write farther down from the 
natural top.


Bill
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Re: [css-d] Span Style Inside Div with PHP Code

2010-12-03 Thread Climis, Tim

 Thanks, Tim. Yes, you are quire right about the proliferation of classes,
 and I did not know about applying a second class. This has been the
 result of learn as I go and it seemed easier (at the time) to simply
 copy a class and make a few adjustment.
 

We all learn as we go.  Just some of us have been going longer.  :)  I learned 
that trick on this very list a few years ago. It's come in handy quite a few 
times since.

Not only can you apply multiple classes to elements, you can also select 
elements with both classes and apply styles to only things with both.

For example:
.column {width: 48%}
.left {float: left}
.left.column {
border-right: 1px solid #333;
padding-right: 1em;
}

Note the lack of a space in the last selector.

This code will make anything labeled as a column have a 48% width, and anything 
labeled as left float left.  So class=left column will be 48% and floated 
left.  But that last style will also give left columns a bit of white space and 
a border for a column rule effect.

The possibilities are pretty nifty when you get into it.

---Tim
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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice

I couldn't guess why presentational javascript is a bad thing, so I
did a quick search and I found two articles that appear to address the
issue:

http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/articles/presentational_javascript/index.html
http://www.digital-web.com/articles/separating_behavior_and_structure_2/

From the articles, it appears that the only disadvantages are: People
who surf with Javascript disabled won't see the page as the designer
intended; It may be difficult to modify the design of a page when the
presentation is handled by both CSS and Javascript.

 These don't seem to be huge disadvantages: I can't think of a good
reason to surf with Javascript disabled. Also, since the majority of
sites use some Javascript,  one should expect some problems if one
disables it.
The second problem concerns only developers. Good documentation and
project management should mitigate it.

~C

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Thierry Koblentz n...@tjkdesign.com wrote:

 If having valid stylesheets is important, one could simply apply zoom
 using javascript: object.style.zoom=1;


 But then your presentational layer is bound to the behavior layer :-(

 --
 Regards,
 Thierry
 www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz


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Re: [css-d] Span Style Inside Div with PHP Code

 Not only can you apply multiple classes to elements, you can also
 select elements with both classes and apply styles to only things with
 both.
 
 For example:
 .column {width: 48%}
 .left {float: left}
 .left.column {
   border-right: 1px solid #333;
   padding-right: 1em;
 }
 
 Note the lack of a space in the last selector.

Be aware that this does not work in IE6. This browser sees the above as:

.column {width: 48%}
.left {float: left}
.column {
border-right: 1px solid #333;
padding-right: 1em;
}

--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz

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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice

 
  These don't seem to be huge disadvantages: I can't think of a good
 reason to surf with Javascript disabled.

According to a recent blog post from Nicholas Zakas (Yahoo!) about 2% of
users browse the web without JS.
As a side note, I don't think it is always their choice.

 Also, since the majority of
 sites use some Javascript,  one should expect some problems if one
 disables it.

fwiw, I don't agree, if the page is built with progressive enhancement in
mind, there should be no problem. The page may look less sexy, but there
should be no problem per se. And the first step toward progressive
enhancement is to respect the separation of the three layers.


--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz


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Re: [css-d] hasLayout triggering best practice

2010-12-03 Thread David Laakso




On 12/3/10 10:24 AM, Barney Carroll wrote:


1. Could it be argued that *any* layout...




You could argue that in conversation and on paper from here to 
eternity but making it happen on a screen with anything short of a 
very simplistic layout is a pipe-dream. And therein may lie an answer 
in and of itself: for example, you might feed the lower-IEs -- given 
you work with a willing and  progressive client -- a simple 600px 
fixed-width version based on the same principles as advocated for 
mobile handsets.





2. ... but I would be interested if
there were other reasons I may be missing.



Dunno. No problem with zoom: 1; that I know of? And, other than that 
CCs mean repeated trips to the server whereas IE hacks in one style 
sheet involves dragging them along to to compliant [and somewhat 
compliant] browsers. As with any method  it depends on the site itself 
and personal opinion as to the most efficient way to handle the 
particular need at hand.






Regards,
Barney Carroll




Best,
~d

http://chelseacreekstudio.com/

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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice

The statistics provided by Nicholas Zakas are interesting!
http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javascript-disabled/

About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled (2% for Yahoo USA).

So I guess the decision whether to use presentational Javascript or
not depends on how much one is willing to work to cater to 1% of a
site's visitors. It is a lot like deciding whether to support IE6 or
not.

~Chetan

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:22 AM, Thierry Koblentz n...@tjkdesign.com wrote:

These don't seem to be huge disadvantages: I can't think of a good
reason to surf with Javascript disabled.

According to a recent blog post from Nicholas Zakas (Yahoo!) about 2% of
users browse the web without JS.
As a side note, I don't think it is always their choice.

Also, since the majority of
sites use some Javascript, one should expect some problems if one
disables it.

fwiw, I don't agree, if the page is built with progressive enhancement in
mind, there should be no problem. The page may look less sexy, but there
should be no problem per se. And the first step toward progressive
enhancement is to respect the separation of the three layers.

--
Regards,
Thierry
www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz

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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice

2010-12-03 Thread Christie Mason

As one of those much maligned people who surf the web with js disabled, I
can tell you that any number representing % of users surfing with js
disallowed is suspect.   I surf with js disabled, even though it can be a
pain, to avoid loading the multiple js files that are used by many sites to
do things I don't think they need to do, local newspaper site loads 23
different js files.  That's on my office computer.  When I can, I run my
mobile devices with JavaScript turned off all the time.

IF I encounter a problem, I may abandon the site or I may enable some js
scripts to run if the site has something that I really want to access.  As I
land on the site I'd then be counted as non-js user, then after enabling js
I would be counted as a js user.  I'm not sure how allowing only some js
scripts to run w/b counted.

.Net sites are some the worst because, as a developer,  you have to work
around not using JavaScript for postbacks. Close runner ups are those sites
that won't let me add to a shopping cart, or submit a form w/o JavaScript
being enabled.  But my real disdain I reserve for those sites that are
completely illegible w/o js enabled.  Those site designers haven't earned
their fee and should apologize to every user.

I don't think the question s/b Why do I turn off JavaScript?  My question
w/b Why do you need JavaScript?.I can only think of few times where
use of js is justified.  Not everywhere, all the time.

Christie Mason


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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice

2010-12-03 Thread Christie Mason

From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled
(2% for Yahoo USA) 

[-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate % of
all web users disabling js.  I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm sure
that's true of a large % of web users.  I also suspect that the type of
visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted to
Yahoo.  Then there's information buried in the comments at
http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas
cript-disabled/  that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page, so
that also skews the results.  Within my group of contacts, about 30% block
JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time.

You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo visitors
and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an
indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled.   Web
visitors are not homogeneous.

But that's not all you should consider.  Nothing on the web stays the same.
All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of
visitors disabling js would increase.  Or maybe another popular mobile
device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js disabled
as a default, or who knows?  

Christie Mason

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Re: [css-d] does anyone know of...

2010-12-03 Thread Matthew P. Johnson

-Original Message-
From: css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org
[mailto:css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of David Laakso
Sent: Thursday, December 02, 2010 7:46 PM
To: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org
Subject: Re: [css-d] does anyone know of...

On 12/2/10 8:30 PM, Matthew P. Johnson wrote:

 http://applegateelements.com/new/lightweight%20image%20gallery.shtml

 The photo gallery only. When I added the code to the site I am working on
it
 pushed the nav down from the header image so I am looking for a backup in
 case I can't figure out where the conflict is with the nav and header
 image.
 [Matthew P. Johnson] :)

I don't know. But you might validate. State the OS/browsers that give 
you difficulty in your post. Find a decent e-mail client [ I've heard 
some use Thunderbird ]. And, remember -- not to forget -- that breakfast 
is the most important meal of the day.

Best,
~betty crocker

-- 
:: desktop and mobile ::
http://chelseacreekstudio.com/

[Matthew P. Johnson] you are absolutely correct. Breakfast is the most
important meal of the day, sometimes I forget. :D

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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: does anyone know of...

2010-12-03 Thread Matthew P. Johnson

-Original Message-
From: css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org
[mailto:css-d-boun...@lists.css-discuss.org] On Behalf Of Chetan Crasta
Sent: Friday, December 03, 2010 8:52 AM
To: n...@tjkdesign.com
Cc: css-d@lists.css-discuss.org; Matthew P. Johnson
Subject: Re: [css-d] [+] Re: does anyone know of...

@Thierry: All valid criticisms. However, when one wants to do anything
fancy with plain HTML and CSS2, it is often at the cost of semantic
correctness.

On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 9:35 PM, Thierry Koblentz n...@tjkdesign.com wrote:

 A CSS-only lightbox will have many limitations. You cannot have the
 same functionality as the example you gave, with only CSS2.
 However, here is one good implementation of a css-only lightbox
 http://www.cssplay.co.uk/menu/lightbox-hover.html

 fwiw, I would not call this solution a good implementation. It is not
 keyboard accessible, it loads all the assets at once (versus on request),
 and wrap four block-level elements in each anchor (not a problem in HTML5
I
 believe).

 --
 Regards,
 Thierry
 www.tjkdesign.com | www.ez-css.org | @thierrykoblentz

[Matthew P. Johnson] This is great thank you. I think I will be able to make
something work for the project I am working on. I have had the flu the last
couple days and lacked the mental aptitude and motivation to search for a
better CSS Gallery implementation. 
Thank you :) 

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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice

@Christie: It is true that Yahoo's stats cannot be extrapolated to the
whole Internet. Unfortunately it appears that these are the only stats
available.
Javascript can considerably improve the aesthetics, usability and
semantics of a site, so it would be a pity if one disables it just to
avoid the odd bad apple.
I never had to disable Javascript because good content is found on
well-designed sites. The sites with the ugly Javascript are the ones
that I wouldn't visit more than once, with or without Javascript.

~Chetan

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote:
 From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled
 (2% for Yahoo USA) 

 [-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate % of
 all web users disabling js.  I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm sure
 that's true of a large % of web users.  I also suspect that the type of
 visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted to
 Yahoo.  Then there's information buried in the comments at
 http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas
 cript-disabled/  that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page, so
 that also skews the results.  Within my group of contacts, about 30% block
 JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time.

 You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo visitors
 and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an
 indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled.   Web
 visitors are not homogeneous.

 But that's not all you should consider.  Nothing on the web stays the same.
 All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of
 visitors disabling js would increase.  Or maybe another popular mobile
 device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js disabled
 as a default, or who knows?

 Christie Mason

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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice


Thierry Koblentz wrote:

If having valid stylesheets is important, one could simply apply zoom
using javascript: object.style.zoom=1;


But then your presentational layer is bound to the behavior layer :-(


And if someone has turned off JS off, or their company's proxy server 
purges incoming JS, they don't get the zoom fix at all.


I'd vote for a CC that pulls in an IE-specific stylesheet containing 
just what needs to be fixed for IE.


--
David
gn...@hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice


Chetan Crasta wrote:

I couldn't guess why presentational javascript is a bad thing, so I
did a quick search and I found two articles that appear to address the
issue:

http://www.bobbyvandersluis.com/articles/presentational_javascript/index.html
http://www.digital-web.com/articles/separating_behavior_and_structure_2/


From the articles, it appears that the only disadvantages are: People

who surf with Javascript disabled won't see the page as the designer
intended; It may be difficult to modify the design of a page when the
presentation is handled by both CSS and Javascript.

 These don't seem to be huge disadvantages: I can't think of a good
reason to surf with Javascript disabled.


Yah. It's not like Javascript is used as part of malicious attacks, used 
to deliver attacks targeted at specific browsers/OSes. JS certainly 
couldn't ever do anything like turn your browser into a botnet member, 
or scan networks hidden behind firewalls and direct specific attacks at 
specific targets behind your firewall. And JS certainly can't be used to 
invade the privacy of site visitors.


Wait, come to think of it: malicious Javascript can do ALL of the above. 
(As can malicious Java and Flash.) So I can't think of a good reason to 
surf with Javascript enabled.



Also, since the majority of
sites use some Javascript,  one should expect some problems if one
disables it.


Good site design only uses JS *where it is necessary* for providing 
required functionality - such as a shopping cart. It provides a fallback 
(grace degradation) if JS is disabled or not entirely as functional as 
the designer expects in whatever browser the visitor is using.


I particularly hate sites that make no attempt whatsoever to style their 
pages until I enable JS there.



The second problem concerns only developers. Good documentation and
project management should mitigate it.


But do not make it any easier to deal with.


On Fri, Dec 3, 2010 at 10:30 PM, Thierry Koblentz n...@tjkdesign.com wrote:

If having valid stylesheets is important, one could simply apply zoom
using javascript: object.style.zoom=1;


But then your presentational layer is bound to the behavior layer :-(


--
David
gn...@hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice


Chetan Crasta wrote:


Javascript can considerably improve the aesthetics,


Not for a site that's properly-designed in the first place.


usability


That is one point where JS can provide functionality.


and semantics of a site,


JS should have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEMANTICS of a site. That should 
be in the HTML where it belongs, NOT IN JS.



so it would be a pity if one disables it just to
avoid the odd bad apple.


There's a hell of a lot of bad apples out there - tons of malicious 
sites, scammers even cracking into supposedly-trustworthy services like 
akamai.net and planting attacks. So it's not the odd bad apple.



I never had to disable Javascript because good content is found on
well-designed sites. The sites with the ugly Javascript are the ones
that I wouldn't visit more than once, with or without Javascript.


I've been on a number of sites where I had to disable their CSS so I 
could read their content. Sadly, a number of those sites were the home 
pages of web design firms!



~Chetan

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com wrote:

From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled
(2% for Yahoo USA) 

[-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate % of
all web users disabling js.  I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm sure
that's true of a large % of web users.  I also suspect that the type of
visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted to
Yahoo.  Then there's information buried in the comments at
http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas
cript-disabled/  that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page, so
that also skews the results.  Within my group of contacts, about 30% block
JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time.

You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo visitors
and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an
indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled.   Web
visitors are not homogeneous.

But that's not all you should consider.  Nothing on the web stays the same.
All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of
visitors disabling js would increase.  Or maybe another popular mobile
device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js disabled
as a default, or who knows?

Christie Mason


--
David
gn...@hawaii.rr.com
authenticity, honesty, community
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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice

@David: I think it is established, with reasonable accuracy, that a
very small percentage (~1%) of surfers block Javascript. If somebody
wants to make sure that their site looks absolutely perfect to the 12
people that surf using Internet Explorer 6 with a Javascript blocking
proxy wearing tin-foil hats, that's their choice -- hats off to them.

As for me, I believe my energy is better spent making my webpages work
well for 99% of my sites visitors.

~Chetan

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:01 PM, david gn...@hawaii.rr.com wrote:
 Chetan Crasta wrote:

 Javascript can considerably improve the aesthetics,

 Not for a site that's properly-designed in the first place.

 usability

 That is one point where JS can provide functionality.

 and semantics of a site,

 JS should have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEMANTICS of a site. That should be in
 the HTML where it belongs, NOT IN JS.

 so it would be a pity if one disables it just to
 avoid the odd bad apple.

 There's a hell of a lot of bad apples out there - tons of malicious sites,
 scammers even cracking into supposedly-trustworthy services like akamai.net
 and planting attacks. So it's not the odd bad apple.

 I never had to disable Javascript because good content is found on
 well-designed sites. The sites with the ugly Javascript are the ones
 that I wouldn't visit more than once, with or without Javascript.

 I've been on a number of sites where I had to disable their CSS so I could
 read their content. Sadly, a number of those sites were the home pages of
 web design firms!

 ~Chetan

 On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com
 wrote:

 From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled
 (2% for Yahoo USA) 

 [-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate %
 of
 all web users disabling js.  I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm
 sure
 that's true of a large % of web users.  I also suspect that the type of
 visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted
 to
 Yahoo.  Then there's information buried in the comments at

 http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas
 cript-disabled/  that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page,
 so
 that also skews the results.  Within my group of contacts, about 30%
 block
 JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time.

 You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo
 visitors
 and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an
 indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled.   Web
 visitors are not homogeneous.

 But that's not all you should consider.  Nothing on the web stays the
 same.
 All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of
 visitors disabling js would increase.  Or maybe another popular mobile
 device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js
 disabled
 as a default, or who knows?

 Christie Mason

 --
 David
 gn...@hawaii.rr.com
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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice

Well, my employer has 1600 staff members browsing the web with IE6, 
protected by a proxy that strips some (but not all) Javascript. 
Considerably more than 12 people. Upgrading from IE6 is forbidden 
because a couple of enterprise apps we use don't work in anything except 
IE6.


But whatever. I disagree about reasonable accuracy, but whatever. 
1-2% of Yahoo visitors block JS doesn't translate across to any other 
site.


Chetan Crasta wrote:

@David: I think it is established, with reasonable accuracy, that a
very small percentage (~1%) of surfers block Javascript. If somebody
wants to make sure that their site looks absolutely perfect to the 12
people that surf using Internet Explorer 6 with a Javascript blocking
proxy wearing tin-foil hats, that's their choice -- hats off to them.

As for me, I believe my energy is better spent making my webpages work
well for 99% of my sites visitors.

~Chetan

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 12:01 PM, david gn...@hawaii.rr.com wrote:

Chetan Crasta wrote:


Javascript can considerably improve the aesthetics,

Not for a site that's properly-designed in the first place.


usability

That is one point where JS can provide functionality.


and semantics of a site,

JS should have NOTHING TO DO WITH THE SEMANTICS of a site. That should be in
the HTML where it belongs, NOT IN JS.


so it would be a pity if one disables it just to
avoid the odd bad apple.

There's a hell of a lot of bad apples out there - tons of malicious sites,
scammers even cracking into supposedly-trustworthy services like akamai.net
and planting attacks. So it's not the odd bad apple.


I never had to disable Javascript because good content is found on
well-designed sites. The sites with the ugly Javascript are the ones
that I wouldn't visit more than once, with or without Javascript.

I've been on a number of sites where I had to disable their CSS so I could
read their content. Sadly, a number of those sites were the home pages of
web design firms!


~Chetan

On Sat, Dec 4, 2010 at 1:03 AM, Christie Mason cma...@managersforum.com
wrote:

From: Chetan Crasta About 1% of Yahoo's visitors had Javascript disabled
(2% for Yahoo USA) 

[-CM-] % of Yahoo visitors disabling js canNOT be used to extrapolate %
of
all web users disabling js.  I haven't visited Yahoo in years and I'm
sure
that's true of a large % of web users.  I also suspect that the type of
visitor who would disable js is not the type of visitor that is attracted
to
Yahoo.  Then there's information buried in the comments at

http://developer.yahoo.com/blogs/ydn/posts/2010/10/how-many-users-have-javas
cript-disabled/  that Yahoo redirects mobile users to a different page,
so
that also skews the results.  Within my group of contacts, about 30%
block
JavaScript all the time, probably another 10%+ block js some of the time.

You'd have to dig into what % of your target market is also Yahoo
visitors
and only if that is a large percentage should Yahoo visitors be used an
indicator for % of your site's visitors will have js disabled.   Web
visitors are not homogeneous.

But that's not all you should consider.  Nothing on the web stays the
same.
All it will take is another widespread js security problem then % of
visitors disabling js would increase.  Or maybe another popular mobile
device will ship with js disabled as default, or a browser with js
disabled
as a default, or who knows?

Christie Mason



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gn...@hawaii.rr.com
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Re: [css-d] [+] Re: hasLayout triggering best practice