Re: The tone of discussion on this list

[Steve Langasek]

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 08:57:27PM +0100, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> Hi Steve, 

> > But as a fellow Debian Developer, I must object to the implication that
> > this particular statement is antisemitic.  It is not antisemitic to
> > object to the policies of the Israeli government.  It is not antisemitic
> > to characterize the actions of the Israeli government as "murder", any
> > more than it is to do so in regards to the actions of my own government.

> > This is a problematic topic all around; please do not make it more
> > problematic with unsubstantiated accusations of racism.

> I did not wanted to say its antisemetic, I wanted to say that we don't
> want to see either antisemetic _or_ antiisrelism.  In my experience most
> discussions starting with antiisrealiasm will end with being antisemetic.

> Sorry for not being clear.  I just wanted to draw a line for that
> discussion that we shouldn't cross.

Thank you for the clarification.  I suspected this was your intention, but
as it was open to interpretation, and because it IS a common pattern
(outside of Debian) to accuse all critics of the Israeli government of
antisemitism, I thought it was important to have this clear for the entire
list.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer   https://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: The tone of discussion on this list

[Geert Stappers]

> > >   ...  
> >
> > From our policy:
> > * The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. 
> > Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not 
> > welcome.
> > * Try not to flame; it is not polite.
> > * Use common sense all the time.
> >
> > From the CoC:
> >
> > * Be respectful
> > * Assume good faith
> >
> 
>  ...
> You can???t shutdown discussion just because you dislike it and have the 
> power to do so.

Find a way to improve.



Start with stopping on telling what is wrong.


Regards
Geert Stappers
-- 
Leven en laten leven


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Re: DC20: Questions regarding device inspections at the airport

[Nasir El-Amin]

Hi Ștefano,

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 1:09 PM, Stefano Rivera  wrote:

> Hi Giacomo (2019.03.21_12:49:20_+0200)
>> So they relay much on screening (you will see at airport: many questions,
>> different steps and queues, but you still can keep liquids).
>> I really doubts you will have the laptop confiscated for "no particular
>> reasons". As I wrote, Israeli security is very professional (and less
>> security theater), they, for sure, know that there is cloud, if one should
>> "import" nasty data.
>
> That was my experience from the visit I made to the venue, too.
> Immigration was just a couple of questions, without needing to see any
> documentation. Probably better than my average US Immigration experience
> (and I have far too much of that).
>
> On leaving the country (just before the gate to board the plane) I was
> questioned a little more in-depth. Esp. about any previous travel to the
> middle-east. Again, no searches or documentation required.
>
> That said, I'm pretty low risk to them, as an employed middle-class
> white guy.
>
> SR
>
> --
> Stefano Rivera
> http://tumbleweed.org.za/
> +1 415 683 3272

If you admit to travel to the Middle East you will be excluded from visiting 
again. Also if they see a stamp on your passport from a middle eastern country 
they will deny entry. They often ask and check for the stamps on entry too but 
because they can’t spend that time in each visitor it is done randomly and 
mostly focuses on people they believe to be Muslim or Middle Eastern and of 
verifies you get denied entry and set in immigration hold and put on the next 
commercial flight back to your country of origin.

This is precisely one of the reasons it should be a concern for Debconf being 
in Israel because Muslim or Middle Eastern contributors will be denied entry.

Re: DC20: Questions regarding device inspections at the airport

[Stefano Rivera]

Hi Giacomo (2019.03.21_12:49:20_+0200)
> So they relay much on screening (you will see at airport: many questions,
> different steps and queues, but you still can keep liquids).
> I really doubts you will have the laptop confiscated for "no particular
> reasons". As I wrote, Israeli security is very professional (and less
> security theater), they, for sure, know that there is cloud, if one should
> "import" nasty data.

That was my experience from the visit I made to the venue, too.
Immigration was just a couple of questions, without needing to see any
documentation. Probably better than my average US Immigration experience
(and I have far too much of that).

On leaving the country (just before the gate to board the plane) I was
questioned a little more in-depth. Esp. about any previous travel to the
middle-east. Again, no searches or documentation required.

That said, I'm pretty low risk to them, as an employed middle-class
white guy.

SR

-- 
Stefano Rivera
  http://tumbleweed.org.za/
  +1 415 683 3272

Re: The tone of discussion on this list

[Alexander Wirt]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Steve Langasek wrote:

Hi Steve, 

> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 07:47:42PM +0100, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote:
> 
> > > Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that
> > > you're using?
> 
> > No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if
> > people think that sentences like: 
> 
> > "Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for
> > countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land.
> > Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and
> > oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable."
> > (Just one example). 
> 
> > are acceptable on our lists they are wrong.  We can of course now start
> > constructing sentences like those for muslims, hindus or whatever ethnical
> > group.  But I don't want to see someone going that route.
> 
> > So we either discuss in a constructive way or we should stop that
> > discussion now.
> 
> I welcome the listmasters reminding us that we are a community and that the
> tone of our discussions should correspond, and I acknowledge your statement
> that the above message is not acceptable for this reason.
> 
> But as a fellow Debian Developer, I must object to the implication that this
> particular statement is antisemitic.  It is not antisemitic to object to the
> policies of the Israeli government.  It is not antisemitic to characterize
> the actions of the Israeli government as "murder", any more than it is to do
> so in regards to the actions of my own government.
> 
> This is a problematic topic all around; please do not make it more
> problematic with unsubstantiated accusations of racism.
I did not wanted to say its antisemetic, I wanted to say that we don't want
to see either antisemetic _or_ antiisrelism. In my experience most discussions
starting with antiisrealiasm will end with being antisemetic. 

Sorry for not being clear. I just wanted to draw a line for that discussion
that we shouldn't cross. 

Alex



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Re: The tone of discussion on this list

[Steve Langasek]

Hi Alexander,

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 07:47:42PM +0100, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote:

> > Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that
> > you're using?

> No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if
> people think that sentences like: 

> "Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for
> countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land.
> Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and
> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable."
> (Just one example). 

> are acceptable on our lists they are wrong.  We can of course now start
> constructing sentences like those for muslims, hindus or whatever ethnical
> group.  But I don't want to see someone going that route.

> So we either discuss in a constructive way or we should stop that
> discussion now.

I welcome the listmasters reminding us that we are a community and that the
tone of our discussions should correspond, and I acknowledge your statement
that the above message is not acceptable for this reason.

But as a fellow Debian Developer, I must object to the implication that this
particular statement is antisemitic.  It is not antisemitic to object to the
policies of the Israeli government.  It is not antisemitic to characterize
the actions of the Israeli government as "murder", any more than it is to do
so in regards to the actions of my own government.

This is a problematic topic all around; please do not make it more
problematic with unsubstantiated accusations of racism.

-- 
Steve Langasek   Give me a lever long enough and a Free OS
Debian Developer   to set it on, and I can move the world.
Ubuntu Developer   https://www.debian.org/
slanga...@ubuntu.com vor...@debian.org


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Re: The tone of discussion on this list

[Nasir El-Amin]

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 12:10 PM, Alexander Wirt  wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
>
>> So just to clarify your stance is that stating historically factual 
>> statements about human rights violations in a country where the project has 
>> decided to whole an event and where people of specific faiths and ethnicity 
>> will be excluded is off limits? Because that’s what your quoted statement 
>> was addressing.
> We can state historically factual statements for all over the world for
> years, probably for every country where a debconf ever happened. But that
> don't take us any further in that discussion.
>
>>
>> I just want to be clear so others know they cannot publicly criticize the 
>> project for these reasons which are all factual.
>>
>> Also can you refer to any project policy or rule that’s documented publicly 
>> that prohibits this? You state that such is not allowed is that a rule you 
>> made up on the fly or is it documented somewhere?
>
> From our policy:
> * The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. 
> Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not 
> welcome.
> * Try not to flame; it is not polite.
> * Use common sense all the time.
>
> From the CoC:
>
> * Be respectful
> * Assume good faith
>
> Alex

1. Debconf focuses on discussion around the Debconf event.
2. The bid and discussion for this specific Debconf was done behind closed 
doors which departs from the Social Contract which says things will be done in 
the open.
3. The issues I raise are not flaming it’s abusive for you to falsely conflate 
that criticism of our project holding an event in a place where Muslims and 
people of Middle Eastern descent would be excluded and if they some how could 
enter Israel would feel unsafe and uncomfortable due to genocide and fascism.
4. None of those who have replied have assumed good faith and neither have you. 
As a user of Debian and contributor I have as much right as anyone else to be 
critical of the project.
5. It is now very evident your trying to misinterpret the social contract and 
code of conduct and what’s been said in order to censor entirely valid and 
permitted discussion.

I say to you Alex and the other list maintainer who threatened to ban me that 
your abusing your powers here and what I have said does not violate the code of 
conduct or social contract.

If anything your failure to assume good faith is in violation of the code of 
conduct of this project and your threats to ban and censor are also violations 
possibly warranting action by the DPL.

You can’t shutdown discussion just because you dislike it and have the power to 
do so.

Re: The tone of discussion on this list

[Alexander Wirt]

On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Nasir El-Amin wrote:

> So just to clarify your stance is that stating historically factual 
> statements about human rights violations in a country where the project has 
> decided to whole an event and where people of specific faiths and ethnicity 
> will be excluded is off limits? Because that’s what your quoted statement was 
> addressing.
We can state historically factual statements for all over the world for
years, probably for every country where a debconf ever happened. But that
don't take us any further in that discussion. 

> 
> I just want to be clear so others know they cannot publicly criticize the 
> project for these reasons which are all factual.
> 
> Also can you refer to any project policy or rule that’s documented publicly 
> that prohibits this? You state that such is not allowed is that a rule you 
> made up on the fly or is it documented somewhere?

From our policy: 
* The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian. 
Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not 
welcome.
* Try not to flame; it is not polite.
* Use common sense all the time.

From the CoC: 

* Be respectful
* Assume good faith

Alex

Re: The tone of discussion on this list

[Ghassan_Kanafani]

I appreciate the reply, but apologize but I'm still confused, and I think the 
lack of a definition is a cop-out and I find it ironic that someone who has the 
ability to moderate discussion cannot even define the rubric they are using to 
do so!

> Israel has been murdering Muslims for
> countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land

Amin is indeed being slightly graphic but this is a factually true statement:
* Palestinians (who are mostly muslims) are killed nearly daily:
https://www.ochaopt.org/data/casualties, and by international law
* Israel is illegally occupying Palestinian land: 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_law_and_Israeli_settlements

Do you take issue with him using the word "murder" rather than "kill" or 
"shoot"?

Do we have guidelines to know what is the appropriate terminology? It's 
unfortunate that we need to have these conversations, but when people's lives 
and families 'dying' (to use the least inflammatory word possible), how do you 
expect people to reply?

> Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and
> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable."

This is merely Amin expressing his view of the situation.


- Ghassan Kanafani
Debian Contributor


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 2:47 PM, Alexander Wirt  
wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote:
>
> > Hi Alex,
> > Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that 
> > you're using?
>
> No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if
> people think that sentences like:
>
> "Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for
> countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land.
> Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and
> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable."
> (Just one example).
>
> are acceptable on our lists they are wrong. We can of course now start
> constructing sentences like those for muslims, hindus or whatever ethnical
> group. But I don't want to see someone going that route.
>
> So we either discuss in a constructive way or we should stop that discussion
> now.
>
> Alex

Re: The tone of discussion on this list

[Nasir El-Amin]

So just to clarify your stance is that stating historically factual statements 
about human rights violations in a country where the project has decided to 
whole an event and where people of specific faiths and ethnicity will be 
excluded is off limits? Because that’s what your quoted statement was 
addressing.

I just want to be clear so others know they cannot publicly criticize the 
project for these reasons which are all factual.

Also can you refer to any project policy or rule that’s documented publicly 
that prohibits this? You state that such is not allowed is that a rule you made 
up on the fly or is it documented somewhere?

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:47 AM, Alexander Wirt  wrote:

> On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote:
>
>> Hi Alex,
>>
>> Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that 
>> you're using?
> No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if
> people think that sentences like:
>
> "Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for
> countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land.
> Debian having a conference in contestedland where military conflict and
> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable."
> (Just one example).
>
> are acceptable on our lists they are wrong. We can of course now start
> constructing sentences like those for muslims, hindus or whatever ethnical
> group. But I don't want to see someone going that route.
>
> So we either discuss in a constructive way or we should stop that discussion
> now.
>
> Alex

Re: The tone of discussion on this list

[Ghassan_Kanafani]

Hi Alex,

Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that you're 
using?

Too often the excuse of anti-semitism is used as a smokescreen to avoid 
criticism of the Israeli government and their policies. (See the many 
thinkpieces written about Ilhan Omar in the USA)

I have no issue with Jewish people, and it may surprise you that Arab and other 
muslims in the middle east are also semitic people.

I hope other people can think about this good quote:

"True peace is not merely the absence of tension: it is the presence of 
justice." - MLK Jr.

- Ghassan Kanafani
Debian Contributor


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 2:27 PM, Alexander Wirt  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> this is a warning and note from us listmasters. Please come back to a
> civilized discussion style. I don't want to see any antisemitism or
> antisrealism on that list. Either you have something substantial to add to
> the debconf discussion or please don't take part in that discussion.
> Otherwise listmaster will have to honor that behaviour.
>
> Alex - Debian Listmaster

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Russ Allbery]

Nasir El-Amin  writes:

> Israeli is a nationality not the faith of Judaism. I’m criticizing
> citizens (which practice a variety of faiths) of a genocidal apartheid
> state that’s killed tens of thousands of Muslims.

The same argument can be made about US treatment of Native Americans, and
while the ongoing conflicts are not as severe as they are in Israel, they
are still ongoing.  As a US citizen I find those actions abhorrent, and I
understand why individuals may not want to visit or support the US because
of them, but I still think there is some limit to the personal
responsibility that I have as a US citizen for the actions of my
government, when I vote against those actions at every opportunity that I
have.

It is very difficult to just leave the country you were born in, of which
you are a citizen, and where all of your friends and family reside.  There
is a limit to how much one can personally do to prevent one's government
from taking actions one finds abhorrent.

At some level we *have* to separate people from the government they live
under.  Often they have voted against that government at every opportunity
they've had for their entire life.

I'm not saying that these sorts of political questions should never have
any effect on choice of venue for conferences, but I think you're taking
this argument much too far, to a place where essentially every choice of
venue could be disputed.  It is extremely hard to find a government in the
world that is not involved to some degree or another in an ongoing
violation of human rights.  That, sadly, is the world we live in.

I completely support you in your personal (and collective) decision to
decide to boycott certain conference venues.  There are countries to which
I personally refuse to travel as well for various reasons.  I also believe
that a sufficiently substantial boycott should be taken into account when
deciding venues, if for practical reasons if nothing else.  But *please*
explicitly distinguish between the actions of governments and the actions
of citizens of that government and assume good faith and good will of
Debian community members unless you have concrete reasons to believe
otherwise.

-- 
Russ Allbery (r...@debian.org)   

Re: The tone of discussion on this list

[Nasir El-Amin]

Why do we have a code of conduct if list maintainers are going to depart from 
it and make their own rules? You’ve have not assumed good faith and your not 
allowing open discussion. https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct

Bringing up concerns of Debian Project having an event in a place that excludes 
people based on faith, nationality and ethnicity is not a bad thing. People 
have falsely conflated that criticizing human rights violations of Israel is 
anti-semitism this is entirely false.

Your shutting down an entire discussion because some very vocal people have 
opposed criticism is Israel. You are supporting others speech and beliefs over 
the speech and beliefs of others.

There has been no anti-semitism only anti-fascism.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:27 AM, Alexander Wirt  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> this is a warning and note from us listmasters. Please come back to a
> civilized discussion style. I don't want to see any antisemitism or
> antisrealism on that list. Either you have something substantial to add to
> the _debconf_ discussion or please don't take part in that discussion.
> Otherwise listmaster will have to honor that behaviour.
>
> Alex - Debian Listmaster

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Nasir El-Amin]

I would oppose a Debconf in the United States too because the current 
exclusionary and oppressive policies. This isn’t about faith as some are trying 
to make it out to be it’s about acts of fascism

Anyways per the list maintainer I’m no longer allowed to discuss this issue or 
criticize Debconf being in Israel. There’s no documented policy or rules that 
prohibit this and the Debian social contract supports such discussions but 
nonetheless I’ve been told I’d be banned.

Since the discussion cannot take place here we will take it to social media and 
other places where open discussion is valued and censorship is frowned upon.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:11 AM, Delib  wrote:

> It is good to read this civil discussion on such a difficult topic.
>
> Maybe obvious, but I'll state it anyway: When deciding not to accept a
> bid based on a moral principle, (instead of some Debian specific
> criteria) I hope all remember that principle might stand for future
> decisions, as a precedant. It asks some specfics be considered, like
> who's boycotts are respected? Will Debian and/or the free-software
> movement in general be hurt in that location by honoring that boycott?
> Some part of the population more than others?
>
> My own country is guilty of some things and could be disqualified, based on 
> criteria chosen as a result of this conversation. I might believe a future 
> Debian supported
> boycott of my country was deserved and wise, but it will be good to know
> the criteria are considered carefully.
>
> So if we were behind curtains of ignorance and did not know if a
> proposed set of reasons for not meeting in Israel might apply to our own 
> place someday, would you think a decision was based on good reasons?
>
> Delib in USA

The tone of discussion on this list

[Alexander Wirt]

Hi, 

this is a warning and note from us listmasters. Please come back to a
civilized discussion style. I don't want to see any antisemitism or
antisrealism on that list. Either you have something substantial to add to
the _debconf_ discussion or please don't take part in that discussion.
Otherwise listmaster will have to honor that behaviour. 

Alex - Debian Listmaster 


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Re: Debconf in Israel

[Nasir El-Amin]

I’ll now be silent the list maintainer says if I discuss apartheid or any 
further criticism of Israel that myself and anyone else critical will be banned 
from Debian mailing lists.

So much for the social contract and so much for anti-fascism. It’s a very sad 
day for the Debian project it’s shutting down speech and violating its own 
social contract.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:07 AM, Avi  wrote:

>> Respectfully speaking, being vocal against apartheid and international 
>> crimes is the opposite of hate speech.
>
> That is completely true. And yet alongside the statements that reasonably 
> match your description, a whole other set of statements equating Israeli 
> citizenship with being Nazi collaborators, as Nasir has now done, is in my 
> book a very inappropriate turn. Further ranting about "right to exist" is 
> both ahistorical, as if any nation-state ever exists by rights, and 
> secondarily reveals a particular worldview which appears to violate both the 
> Debian code of conduct on being respectful and the Debian mailing lists code 
> of conduct on flaming.
>
> I maintain that this is not an appropriate venue for what seemingly started 
> with some valid concerns about inclusion but is clearly now a flame war. For 
> my part I will now filter this thread into the trash so that I'm no longer 
> tempted to add to it.
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 1:22 PM Ghassan_Kanafani 
>  wrote:
>
>> Roger,
>>
>> Respectfully speaking, being vocal against apartheid and international 
>> crimes is the opposite of hate speech. Furthermore, I think bringing up 
>> other countries is off-topic.
>>
>> As Avi correctly mentioned before,
>>
>>> I think we can safely agree that past actions are not the same as ongoing 
>>> actions. The objections raised include ongoing actions, not just past ones.
>>
>> There is an active international boycott campaign against Israel with the 
>> goal to change the apartheid policies. 
>> https://bdsmovement.net/cultural-boycott
>>
>> Absolutely other areas in the world have similar issues, but that is outside 
>> the scope here considering the ongoing violence and active campaign, and I 
>> would hope we don't use other conflicts to be dismissive of this one.
>>
>> I would also humbly encourage my european friends here to inform themselves 
>> of the situation (if they haven't already), considering that many european 
>> countries are responsible for starting and supporting the ongoing conflict.
>>
>> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>>
>> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
>> On Thursday, March 21, 2019 1:13 PM, Roger Shimizu  
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 1:59 AM Nasir El-Amin
>>> nasir_ela...@protonmail.com wrote:
>>>
>>> > Here one Palestinian user of Debian points out he would be excluded: 
>>> > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/b3cen2/debconf20_to_be_hosted_in_haifa_israel/eiyxby6/
>>> > How about we agree that Debconf never take place in a country that would 
>>> > exclude someone based on their religion or national origin as a firm 
>>> > policy? I’d also be advocating against a Debconf in Saudi Arabia because 
>>> > they exclude Israelis.
>>>
>>> I'm sorry you didn't say so when we had debconf in Taiwan, where ever
>>> occupied by Spanish, Nederlanders, Japanese, and Chinese.
>>> That didn't prevent a success conference.
>>>
>>> We had fun in Taiwan. And I hope we have fun in Israel, too.
>>> Please stop hate speech.
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>>
>>> 
>>>
>>> Roger Shimizu, GMT +9 Tokyo
>>> PGP/GPG: 4096R/6C6ACD6417B3ACB1

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Delib]

It is good to read this civil discussion on such a difficult topic.

Maybe obvious, but I'll state it anyway: When deciding not to accept a 
bid based on a moral principle, (instead of some Debian specific 
criteria) I hope all remember that principle might stand for future 
decisions, as a precedant. It asks some specfics be considered, like 
who's boycotts are respected? Will Debian and/or the free-software 
movement in general be hurt in that location by honoring that boycott? 
Some part of the population more than others? 

My own country is guilty of some things and could be disqualified, based on 
criteria chosen as a result of this conversation. I might believe a future 
Debian supported 
boycott of my country was deserved and wise, but it will be good to know 
the criteria are considered carefully.

So if we were behind curtains of ignorance and did not know if a 
proposed set of reasons for not meeting in Israel might apply to our own place 
someday, would you think a decision was based on good reasons? 

Delib in USA

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Nasir El-Amin]

Jonathan,

It’s not just what their government is doing it’s what the citizens themselves 
by being on occupied land are doing. All of Israel is occupied land not once 
inch is fairly staked. By becoming a Israel citizen and living in Israel all 
Israelis take part in the oppression. In fact it’s settlers (Israeli citizens 
not government) that continue to expand and steal more land. At the end of the 
day not a single Israeli is innocent. An Israeli that wants to unsupportive is 
one who denounces their citizenship, turns their land and other appropriated 
gains over to Palestinians and leaves Israel. Palestinians deserve their land 
back and reparations for the genocide caused by citizens, military and police 
of Israel.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 10:49 AM, Jonathan Carter  wrote:

> On 2019/03/21 19:36, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
>> I haven’t once mentioned Jews. I’ve mentioned Israelis which are
>> citizens of Israel. There are Jews worldwide especially of the Orthodox
>> that 100% condemn the existence of Israel. This isn’t a Jew vs Muslim
>> issue. This is a Israel vs Muslims issue and the fact that Israel exists
>> through the theft of land, genocide, oppression and even blockading of
>> the most basic of humanitarian supplies. Palestinians die everyday at
>> the hand of Israel. You can’t tip toe around this issue and say there
>> are Israelis that don’t support what’s happening that’s not true. Every
>> Israeli supports the theft of land because they are by their presence on
>> the stolen land complicit in the theft. Every Israeli is complicit in
>> the genocide to because it’s not some fringe politics but it is the
>> national political discourse of Israel to treat Palestinians the way
>> they are treated.
>
> Fair enough re: you not mentioning Jews, it's still unfair to clump all
> Israeli people together as the same and assume they are all in support
> of what their government is doing.
>
>> You can defend Israel or you can be in the right side of history and
>> stand with the Palestinians, United Nations, Human Rights Watch, BDS and
>> countless organizations and human rights officials worldwide who condemn
>> what’s happened and continues to happen in Israel.
>>
>> Israel doesn’t have any right to exist it’s a apartheid and stolen land.
>> Perhaps Jonathan the reason you defend Israel is because you live in a
>> former apartheid state that stole land from Black South Africans and
>> treated Black South Africans similar although much nicer than Israelis
>> treat Palestinians. You benefited from apartheid in your own country as
>> a White South African who for decades benefited as Black South Africans
>> suffered oppression.
>
> You must have misread or misunderstood something, since I haven't said
> anything in defense of Israel whatsoever.
>
> -Jonathan
>
> --
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
> ⠈⠳⣄ Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Jonathan Carter]

On 2019/03/21 19:36, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
> I haven’t once mentioned Jews. I’ve mentioned Israelis which are
> citizens of Israel. There are Jews worldwide especially of the Orthodox
> that 100% condemn the existence of Israel. This isn’t a Jew vs Muslim
> issue. This is a Israel vs Muslims issue and the fact that Israel exists
> through the theft of land, genocide, oppression and even blockading of
> the most basic of humanitarian supplies. Palestinians die everyday at
> the hand of Israel. You can’t tip toe around this issue and say there
> are Israelis that don’t support what’s happening that’s not true. Every
> Israeli supports the theft of land because they are by their presence on
> the stolen land complicit in the theft. Every Israeli is complicit in
> the genocide to because it’s not some fringe politics but it is the
> national political discourse of Israel to treat Palestinians the way
> they are treated.

Fair enough re: you not mentioning Jews, it's still unfair to clump all
Israeli people together as the same and assume they are all in support
of what their government is doing.

> You can defend Israel or you can be in the right side of history and
> stand with the Palestinians, United Nations, Human Rights Watch, BDS and
> countless organizations and human rights officials worldwide who condemn
> what’s happened and continues to happen in Israel.
> 
> Israel doesn’t have any right to exist it’s a apartheid and stolen land.
> Perhaps Jonathan the reason you defend Israel is because you live in a
> former apartheid state that stole land from Black South Africans and
> treated Black South Africans similar although much nicer than Israelis
> treat Palestinians. You benefited from apartheid in your own country as
> a White South African who for decades benefited as Black South Africans
> suffered oppression.

You must have misread or misunderstood something, since I haven't said
anything in defense of Israel whatsoever.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Debconf in Israel

[林博仁]

Dear Nasir, please don't impose your political stance on others, it's
perfectly fine for an unrelated event to be held in places with major
conflicts.

Debconf held in _insert_a_government_'s jurisdiction area does NOT mean
Debian support _insert_a_government_ in any way, even in places such as the
People's Republic of China (no offense to China-nese people).

Cheers,
林博仁(Buo-ren, Lin)
buo.ren@gmail.com

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Nasir El-Amin]

Hello Jonathan,

I haven’t once mentioned Jews. I’ve mentioned Israelis which are citizens of 
Israel. There are Jews worldwide especially of the Orthodox that 100% condemn 
the existence of Israel. This isn’t a Jew vs Muslim issue. This is a Israel vs 
Muslims issue and the fact that Israel exists through the theft of land, 
genocide, oppression and even blockading of the most basic of humanitarian 
supplies. Palestinians die everyday at the hand of Israel. You can’t tip toe 
around this issue and say there are Israelis that don’t support what’s 
happening that’s not true. Every Israeli supports the theft of land because 
they are by their presence on the stolen land complicit in the theft. Every 
Israeli is complicit in the genocide to because it’s not some fringe politics 
but it is the national political discourse of Israel to treat Palestinians the 
way they are treated.

You can defend Israel or you can be in the right side of history and stand with 
the Palestinians, United Nations, Human Rights Watch, BDS and countless 
organizations and human rights officials worldwide who condemn what’s happened 
and continues to happen in Israel.

Israel doesn’t have any right to exist it’s a apartheid and stolen land. 
Perhaps Jonathan the reason you defend Israel is because you live in a former 
apartheid state that stole land from Black South Africans and treated Black 
South Africans similar although much nicer than Israelis treat Palestinians. 
You benefited from apartheid in your own country as a White South African who 
for decades benefited as Black South Africans suffered oppression.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 10:09 AM, Jonathan Carter  wrote:

> Hi Nasir
>
> On 2019/03/21 18:52, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
>> Any DD who lives in Israel is a direct contributor financially and
>> morally to apartheid and genocide against the Palestinian people.
>
> I sympathise with your views but you're stepping over a line here. Many
> Jewish people and Israelites do not agree with what the government is
> doing, and it's unfair to them to generalise and imply that all of them
> are in support of the regime.
>
> -Jonathan
>
> --
> ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀ Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
> ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁ Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
> ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋ https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
> ⠈⠳⣄ Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Jonathan Carter]

Hi Nasir

On 2019/03/21 18:52, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
> Any DD who lives in Israel is a direct contributor financially and
> morally to apartheid and genocide against the Palestinian people.

I sympathise with your views but you're stepping over a line here. Many
Jewish people and Israelites do not agree with what the government is
doing, and it's unfair to them to generalise and imply that all of them
are in support of the regime.

-Jonathan

-- 
  ⢀⣴⠾⠻⢶⣦⠀  Jonathan Carter (highvoltage) 
  ⣾⠁⢠⠒⠀⣿⡁  Debian Developer - https://wiki.debian.org/highvoltage
  ⢿⡄⠘⠷⠚⠋   https://debian.org | https://jonathancarter.org
  ⠈⠳⣄  Be Bold. Be brave. Debian has got your back.

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Ghassan_Kanafani]

Roger,

Respectfully speaking, being vocal against apartheid and international crimes 
is the opposite of hate speech. Furthermore, I think bringing up other 
countries is off-topic.

As Avi correctly mentioned before,

> I think we can safely agree that past actions are not the same as ongoing 
> actions. The objections raised include ongoing actions, not just past ones.

There is an active international boycott campaign against Israel with the goal 
to change the apartheid policies. https://bdsmovement.net/cultural-boycott

Absolutely other areas in the world have similar issues, but that is outside 
the scope here considering the ongoing violence and active campaign, and I 
would hope we don't use other conflicts to be dismissive of this one.

I would also humbly encourage my european friends here to inform themselves of 
the situation (if they haven't already), considering that many european 
countries are responsible for starting and supporting the ongoing conflict.

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 1:13 PM, Roger Shimizu  
wrote:

> On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 1:59 AM Nasir El-Amin
> nasir_ela...@protonmail.com wrote:
>
> > Here one Palestinian user of Debian points out he would be excluded: 
> > https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/b3cen2/debconf20_to_be_hosted_in_haifa_israel/eiyxby6/
> > How about we agree that Debconf never take place in a country that would 
> > exclude someone based on their religion or national origin as a firm 
> > policy? I’d also be advocating against a Debconf in Saudi Arabia because 
> > they exclude Israelis.
>
> I'm sorry you didn't say so when we had debconf in Taiwan, where ever
> occupied by Spanish, Nederlanders, Japanese, and Chinese.
> That didn't prevent a success conference.
>
> We had fun in Taiwan. And I hope we have fun in Israel, too.
> Please stop hate speech.
>
> Cheers,
>
> 
>
> Roger Shimizu, GMT +9 Tokyo
> PGP/GPG: 4096R/6C6ACD6417B3ACB1

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Roger Shimizu]

On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 1:59 AM Nasir El-Amin
 wrote:
>
> Here one Palestinian user of Debian points out he would be excluded: 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/b3cen2/debconf20_to_be_hosted_in_haifa_israel/eiyxby6/
>
> How about we agree that Debconf never take place in a country that would 
> exclude someone based on their religion or national origin as a firm policy? 
> I’d also be advocating against a Debconf in Saudi Arabia because they exclude 
> Israelis.

I'm sorry you didn't say so when we had debconf in Taiwan, where ever
occupied by Spanish, Nederlanders, Japanese, and Chinese.
That didn't prevent a success conference.

We had fun in Taiwan. And I hope we have fun in Israel, too.
Please stop hate speech.

Cheers,
-- 
Roger Shimizu, GMT +9 Tokyo
PGP/GPG: 4096R/6C6ACD6417B3ACB1

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Nasir El-Amin]

Here one Palestinian user of Debian points out he would be excluded: 
[https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/b3cen2/debconf20_to_be_hosted_in_haifa_israel/eiyxby6/](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/b3cen2/debconf20_to_be_hosted_in_haifa_israel/eiyxby6/?utm_source=share_medium=ios_app)
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/b3cen2/debconf20_to_be_hosted_in_haifa_israel/eiyxby6/?utm_source=share_medium=ios_app
How about we agree that Debconf never take place in a country that would 
exclude someone based on their religion or national origin as a firm policy? 
I’d also be advocating against a Debconf in Saudi Arabia because they exclude 
Israelis.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 9:44 AM, Andrej Shadura  wrote:

> Nasir,
>
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2019 at 17:10, Nasir El-Amin  
> wrote:
>> Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for 
>> countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land. 
>> Debian having a conference in contested land where military conflict and 
>> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable.
>>
>> We (the Muslim Community of Linux Users) are working on a larger response to 
>> Debconf in Israel.
>>
>> If you at all believe in social justice and oppose human rights violations 
>> then you will not attend a Debconf in Israel.
>
> While I understand your concerns, please don’t make a mistake and
> equate the government of Israel and our Israeli developers. Tzafrir
> and other DDs in Israel are not responsible for any actions of Israel
> as a state, and you should not treat them as if they were in any way
> related to the things happening there.
>
> We are all friends here. We don’t need more conflicts and arguments
> than we already have. If we’re going to have political arguments, let
> them rather be about software freedom.
>
> Also please note that Tzafrir said:
>
>>> We're certainly looking forward for Palestinian and Muslim contributors to 
>>> attend just as any others.
>
> While I have not made up my mind — I’m not comfortable visiting any
> place with territorial conflicts (including Crimea and Kashmir, for
> example), I refuse to see bigger politics in this, and I suggest you
> do the same. Our Israeli DDs want to have Debian conference where they
> live, so that they just have us around, same as I wanted to have a
> Debian conference in my place (but have not succeeded). It is just a
> lot of fun to have friends come over to you, wherever you are. Even if
> you happen to live in a place people are having arguments about.
>
> Please don’t try to attribute malice to the decision to have DebConf
> in Haifa. Our community will be stronger if we don’t do that.
>
> --
> Cheers,
> Andrej

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Ghassan_Kanafani]

Thank you for these emails.

Providing tacit approval for apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and international 
crimes ought to be antithetical with Debconf's - and the entire Debian 
project's - mission. I share Nasir El-Amin's frustration and feeling of 
betrayal over this poor decision, and am also actively organizing a response.

As a minor note also, implying that Poland has taken German land, considering 
the history of World War 2, and equating that to the present-day Israeli 
occupation of Palestinian land, is incorrect, dissimilar, and might be 
construed as being said in bad faith.

- Ghassan Kanafani
(nom de guerre since it's unsafe to criticize zionism due to blacklists by 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Canary_Mission and others)

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Thursday, March 21, 2019 12:36 PM, Nasir El-Amin 
 wrote:

> That’s not even a logical example we’re talking about an ongoing apartheid 
> and continued theft of land by a illegitimate state that’s violating 
> international law and treaties. Your trying to water down what’s going on in 
> Israel. United Nations has described Israel as an apartheid state. When you 
> internationally choose to have a technical conference in a apartheid state 
> you are supporting that regime and supporting its criminal and human rights 
> violations against Palestinians.
>
> UN Human Rights Report says Israel is an Apartheid State:
>
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/16/is-israel-an-apartheid-state-this-u-n-report-says-yes/
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 9:30 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz 
>  wrote:
>
>> On 3/21/19 5:10 PM, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
>>> Debian having a conference in contested land where military conflict and 
>>> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable.
>>
>> According to this logic, you wouldn't be allowed to host a DebConf in almost 
>> any
>> country in the world as almost any stretch of land has changed owners, 
>> deliberately
>> or by force over the time.
>>
>> The farm of my great grand-parents is now owned by Polish people and the 
>> land around
>> it which used to be Germany is now Poland. But that's a historic fact that 
>> cannot be
>> reverted. That doesn't mean I boycott Poland or Polish people in any way. In 
>> fact, one
>> of my best friends is from Poland.
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>> --
>> .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
>> : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
>> `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
>> `- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Nasir El-Amin]

No there isn’t a better forum because our social contract says we don’t hide 
issues. Someone would like to downplay the apartheid and sweep this discussion 
elsewhere.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 9:35 AM, Avi  wrote:

> I think we can safely agree that past actions are not the same as ongoing 
> actions. The objections raised include ongoing actions, not just past ones. I 
> think we can also agree that entrenched parties aren't going to convince each 
> other about the rights and wrongs of Israel via this mailing list. Is there a 
> better forum for this discussion?
>
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 12:31 PM John Paul Adrian Glaubitz 
>  wrote:
>
>> On 3/21/19 5:10 PM, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
>>> Debian having a conference in contested land where military conflict and 
>>> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable.
>>
>> According to this logic, you wouldn't be allowed to host a DebConf in almost 
>> any
>> country in the world as almost any stretch of land has changed owners, 
>> deliberately
>> or by force over the time.
>>
>> The farm of my great grand-parents is now owned by Polish people and the 
>> land around
>> it which used to be Germany is now Poland. But that's a historic fact that 
>> cannot be
>> reverted. That doesn't mean I boycott Poland or Polish people in any way. In 
>> fact, one
>> of my best friends is from Poland.
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>> --
>>  .''`.  John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
>> : :' :  Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
>> `. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
>>   `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Nasir El-Amin]

That’s not even a logical example we’re talking about an ongoing apartheid and 
continued theft of land by a illegitimate state that’s violating international 
law and treaties. Your trying to water down what’s going on in Israel. United 
Nations has described Israel as an apartheid state. When you internationally 
choose to have a technical conference in a apartheid state you are supporting 
that regime and supporting its criminal and human rights violations against 
Palestinians.

UN Human Rights Report says Israel is an Apartheid State:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/worldviews/wp/2017/03/16/is-israel-an-apartheid-state-this-u-n-report-says-yes/

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 9:30 AM, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz 
 wrote:

> On 3/21/19 5:10 PM, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
>> Debian having a conference in contested land where military conflict and 
>> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable.
>
> According to this logic, you wouldn't be allowed to host a DebConf in almost 
> any
> country in the world as almost any stretch of land has changed owners, 
> deliberately
> or by force over the time.
>
> The farm of my great grand-parents is now owned by Polish people and the land 
> around
> it which used to be Germany is now Poland. But that's a historic fact that 
> cannot be
> reverted. That doesn't mean I boycott Poland or Polish people in any way. In 
> fact, one
> of my best friends is from Poland.
>
> Adrian
>
> --
> .''`. John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
> : :' : Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
> `. `' Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
> `- GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546 0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Avi]

I think we can safely agree that past actions are not the same as ongoing
actions. The objections raised include ongoing actions, not just past ones.
I think we can also agree that entrenched parties aren't going to convince
each other about the rights and wrongs of Israel via this mailing list. Is
there a better forum for this discussion?

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019, 12:31 PM John Paul Adrian Glaubitz <
glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de> wrote:

> On 3/21/19 5:10 PM, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
> > Debian having a conference in contested land where military conflict and
> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable.
>
> According to this logic, you wouldn't be allowed to host a DebConf in
> almost any
> country in the world as almost any stretch of land has changed owners,
> deliberately
> or by force over the time.
>
> The farm of my great grand-parents is now owned by Polish people and the
> land around
> it which used to be Germany is now Poland. But that's a historic fact that
> cannot be
> reverted. That doesn't mean I boycott Poland or Polish people in any way.
> In fact, one
> of my best friends is from Poland.
>
> Adrian
>
> --
>  .''`.  John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
> : :' :  Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
> `. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
>   `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913
>
>

Re: Debconf in Israel

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

On 3/21/19 5:10 PM, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
> Debian having a conference in contested land where military conflict and 
> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable.

According to this logic, you wouldn't be allowed to host a DebConf in almost any
country in the world as almost any stretch of land has changed owners, 
deliberately
or by force over the time.

The farm of my great grand-parents is now owned by Polish people and the land 
around
it which used to be Germany is now Poland. But that's a historic fact that 
cannot be
reverted. That doesn't mean I boycott Poland or Polish people in any way. In 
fact, one
of my best friends is from Poland.

Adrian

-- 
 .''`.  John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' :  Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
`. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
  `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

Re: Debconf in Israel

[Nasir El-Amin]

This isn’t true and your going to hear claims that Muslims are blocked by 
Israel being false from Israelis as they like to pretend it doesn’t occur.

The reality however is Israel even blocks Muslims from non middle eastern 
countries like Indonesia: 
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-05/israel-blocks-indonesian-passport-holders-from-entering-country/9835744?pfmredir=sm

Also if you could somehow get in the visa stamp of Israel can result in you 
being banned from other countries including Saudi Arabia which will not allow a 
Muslim with a Israeli stamp to make Hajj.

Either way this ignores the fact that Israel has been murdering Muslims for 
countless years and the state of Israel sits on occupied Palestinian land. 
Debian having a conference in contested land where military conflict and 
oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable.

We (the Muslim Community of Linux Users) are working on a larger response to 
Debconf in Israel.

If you at all believe in social justice and oppose human rights violations then 
you will not attend a Debconf in Israel.

On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 1:32 AM, Tzafrir Cohen  wrote:

> Yesterday Nasir El-Amin wrote to this list a message.
>
> I was not subscribed to the list and thus cannot reply directly.
>
> The message did raise one relevant issue:
>
>> Palestinian or Muslim Debian contributors won’t be allowed by Israel to 
>> attend Debconf.
>
> That is certainly not the case. There may be an issue with people of certain 
> countries (e.g. Iran, Iraq and Lebanon) or even lesser issues with people 
> from Egypt, Jordan and Palestine/The Palestinian Authority. However as 
> experience has shown with previous similar conferences (specifically the 
> conferences held by Wikimedia: Wikimania in 2010, a Hackathon in 2016 and 
> GLAM in 2018), this can mostly be avoided by working with the right people.
>
> This is one of the issues we looked into before submitting the bid.
>
> We're certainly looking forward for Palestinian and Muslim contributors to 
> attend just as any others.
>
> -- Tzafrir

Re: DC20: Questions regarding device inspections at the airport

[Giacomo Catenazzi]

On 21.03.2019 10:13, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:

Hi Tzafrir!

Thanks for organizing DebConf20 in Israel, I'm looking forward to
traveling to Haifa, the Silicon Valley of the Middle East.

Now, I have done some initial research regarding traveling to Israel
on the website of my country's department of foreign affairs, I'm
traveling from Germany.

One note mentioned there is that at the airports, laptops might get
confiscated by border patrol agents for examination. This can last
several days and in such cases, the laptop is sent back for free [1].

Can you make any comment on this? Is this a common situation or rather
exceptional? I would definitely love going to Haifa for DebConf, but I
would have a problem with my laptop being confiscated for no particular
reasons.


As far I know, it is exceptional (and there are similar rules also here, 
in Europe, and in other countries).


What I find nice of Israeli security policies, it is they make much less 
security theater, and much more (effective) screening. BTW, one of the 
large income of Israel is tourism, so it has not many very closed policies.


So they relay much on screening (you will see at airport: many 
questions, different steps and queues, but you still can keep liquids).
I really doubts you will have the laptop confiscated for "no particular 
reasons". As I wrote, Israeli security is very professional (and less 
security theater), they, for sure, know that there is cloud, if one 
should "import" nasty data.


As far I know, Israel is not on the list (made by different companies), 
where a clean laptop is required (and provided).


ciao
cate

PS: but I would not store our GPG master private key on laptop (but this 
is a general rule).

DC20: Questions regarding device inspections at the airport

[John Paul Adrian Glaubitz]

Hi Tzafrir!

Thanks for organizing DebConf20 in Israel, I'm looking forward to
traveling to Haifa, the Silicon Valley of the Middle East.

Now, I have done some initial research regarding traveling to Israel
on the website of my country's department of foreign affairs, I'm
traveling from Germany.

One note mentioned there is that at the airports, laptops might get
confiscated by border patrol agents for examination. This can last
several days and in such cases, the laptop is sent back for free [1].

Can you make any comment on this? Is this a common situation or rather
exceptional? I would definitely love going to Haifa for DebConf, but I
would have a problem with my laptop being confiscated for no particular
reasons.

Thanks,
Adrian

> [1] 
> https://www.auswaertiges-amt.de/de/aussenpolitik/laender/israel-node/israelsicherheit/203814#content_3

-- 
 .''`.  John Paul Adrian Glaubitz
: :' :  Debian Developer - glaub...@debian.org
`. `'   Freie Universitaet Berlin - glaub...@physik.fu-berlin.de
  `-GPG: 62FF 8A75 84E0 2956 9546  0006 7426 3B37 F5B5 F913

Debconf in Israel

[Tzafrir Cohen]

  
  
Yesterday Nasir El-Amin wrote to this list a message.


I was not subscribed to the list and thus cannot reply directly.


The message did raise one relevant issue:


> Palestinian or Muslim Debian contributors won’t be allowed
  by Israel to attend Debconf.


That is certainly not the case. There may be an issue with people
  of certain countries (e.g. Iran, Iraq and Lebanon) or even lesser
  issues with people from Egypt, Jordan and Palestine/The
  Palestinian Authority. However as experience has shown with
  previous similar conferences (specifically the conferences held by
  Wikimedia: Wikimania in 2010, a Hackathon in 2016 and GLAM in
  2018), this can mostly be avoided by working with the right
  people.


This is one of the issues we looked into before submitting the
  bid.


We're certainly looking forward for Palestinian and Muslim
  contributors to attend just as any others.



-- Tzafrir

  

Re: Debconf20 will be in...

[W. Martin Borgert]

On 2019-03-21 01:13, Wookey wrote:
> If that's wrong/out of date, then fair enough - I'll consider joining
> you,

That would be great!

I found the information "somewhere on the internet", so neither
am I sure, whether the connection still exists, nor can we be
sure, that it will exist in around 1.5 years from now.

Re: Debconf20 will be in...

[W. Martin Borgert]

On 2019-03-21 01:19, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting W. Martin Borgert (2019-03-21 00:00:29)
> > I plan to go by train and ferry. AFAIK, it's possible to go by
> > train to Ancona, Italy, then ferry to Piraeus, Greece, a short
> > bus trip to Lavrio, Greece, finally other ferry to Haifa.
>
> I'd be happy to take that journey with you, if you like.

Sure, this will be fun!