What USB3 chipsets are supported by the Jessie kernels?

[Rick Thomas]

Does anybody know which USB3 interface chipsets are supported by the current 
Debian Jessie kernel?

Can anyone recommend an inexpensive PCI or PCIe USB3 interface card that works 
with the current drivers?

Thanks!

Rick

Can someone recommend a working USB3 PCI or PCIe card? [Was Re: Why does Debian not recognize my USB3 disk drive?]

[Rick Thomas]

On Aug 30, 2015, at 10:17 PM, CaT  wrote:

> Three possibilities IMO:
> 
> 1) cable too dodgy for USB3 but not dodgy enough for USB2 to fail :)
> 2) card is dodgy (do you know that it actually does work?)
> 3) drivers are dodgy (can happen - is there a newer kernel you can try?)

Since I get the same symptoms with a WD external disk (with manufacturer 
supplied USB3 cable), a USB3 FLASH thumb-drive (no cable) and a USB2 FLASH 
thumb-drive (again, no cable), I’m going with either #2 or #3 here.

To eliminate #2, I guess I’ll need a different USB3 interface card.  Can 
someone recommend a good one?  This machine has free PCI-X and PCIe slots that 
I could use.  PCI-X slots are (according to wikipedia) compatible with PCI 
cards.  The PCIe slot is “x1”.

To investigate #3, I’ve started a different thread on the subject of “What USB3 
chipsets are supported by the Jessie kernels?”

Thanks!
Rick

Re: Why does Debian not recognize my USB3 disk drive?

[Rick Thomas]

On Aug 30, 2015, at 10:42 PM, Glenn English  wrote:

> Yet another possible possibility:
> 
> * Is the disk backward compatible with USB2? If so, does it work with a USB2 
> card? Might get rid of some variables.

Yes, that’s the first thing I tried.  The disk (and all the USB2 and USB3 thumb 
drives I’ve tried as well) work just fine with a USB2 card — but at USB2 speeds.

Aren’t computers fun!?

Rick

quality keyboards

[rlharris]

On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
> Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
> keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the Internet is
> full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from several different
> manufacturers) built with those Cherry keyswitches.

How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
$15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?

And in our present Window$-dominated, rodent-oriented, game-addicted and
generally-lliterate society, is there anyone who types more than a few
dozen keystrokes a day for the purpose of intelligent conversation --
other than subscribers to a mail list such as this, and the authors of
pulp fiction?  (And no, I do not consider messages transmitted by
"texting" or "twitter" to be intelligent conversation.)

RLH

[Newsletter] Why does Debian not recognize my WiFi?

[Harilal, Ahlad (ACIS India)]

Hi,

I tried all possible ways to fix wireless driver issues for my Dell Vostro 
laptop. Chip manufactures Broadcom has provided a debian installation file from 
their official website for the proper chipset. I tried it  but no luck

Regards,
Ahlad Harilal


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Re: What USB3 chipsets are supported by the Jessie kernels?

[rlharris]

On Mon, August 31, 2015 1:58 am, Rick Thomas wrote:
> Does anybody know which USB3 interface chipsets are supported by the
> current Debian Jessie kernel?

You may already have done this, but, if not, you might try searching
google for "linux usb3".  The first two hits are recent posts.

RLH

Re: quality keyboards

[Petter Adsen]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 02:09:23 -0500
rlhar...@oplink.net wrote:

> On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
> > Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
> > keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the Internet is
> > full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from several different
> > manufacturers) built with those Cherry keyswitches.
> 
> How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
> $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
> replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?

I while back I bought a Razer Black Widow mechanical keyboard, and it
cost about $100. They claim[1] that the switches will last up to 60
million keystrokes, and sell both silent and clicky types. It's a
really nicely built keyboard, and IMO good for typing. It also has USB
and audio pass-through.

(You need a small Python script to enable the macro keys under Linux,
as Razer themselves seem quite uninterested in supporting that.)

Is it worth the money? I can't comment on the durability, as it's not
that long ago since I bought it, but IMO it's comfortable enough that
I'll buy another one if something happens to it.

Petter

[1] http://www.razerzone.com/razer-mechanical-switches

-- 
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

OT [Resetear contraseña adito vpn]

[Maykel Franco]

Buenas, he montado adito vpn sobre Debian desde hace un tiempo. Me ha
pasado una cosa extraña, y es que puedo acceder desde todos los
usuarios menos el usuario de administración... que lo llamé admin en
la correspondiente instalación.

He mirado como resetear la contraseña de Adito VPN pero no encuentro
nada al respecto y lo que he probado no me ha funcionado.

Es raro, creo que puede ser un bug porque lleva bastante tiempo
montado y siempre usamos la misma contraseña de administrador y me ha
funcionado siempre excepto ahora. He probado reiniciar el servicio e
incluso el servidor y nada...

Use como método de autenticación PAM.

Alguien le ha pasado esto?

Gracias de antemano.

Re: How come i wrote a NO-BREAK SPACE in xterm+bash ?

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2015-08-21 22:08:33 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> Quoting Vincent Lefevre (vinc...@vinc17.net):
> > No, here's what I said:
> > 
> > | In general, one wants NO-BREAK SPACE to be displayed just like
> > | a space. The differentiation is useful mainly in source code
> > | and when editing, thus it must be done by the application via
> > | configuration (actually applications running in the terminal
> > | rather than the terminal itself).
> 
> So we may be talking at cross-purposes here as I'm distinguishing the
> shell (command interpreter/application launcher) from applications,
> much as Erwan appears to in that sentence. Sorry; but that's why I wrote
> (AIUI) just there.

>From the terminal point of view, the shell is just like another
process.

Moreover, one can often start commands from other applications
(conventional "!" shell escape), and even an interactive shell.
So, it becomes more difficult to do the difference...

> > Your "counter-example" is something different because it is about
> > input (though this doesn't really matter since the notion of context
> > is the same for both input and output) and because the TAB handling
> > is not done by the terminal, but by two different applications
> > running in the terminal (the shell and "cat"). As I've said later,
> > both applications receive TAB in input. They behave differently only
> > because they interpret TAB differently, i.e. the differentiation is
> > done by the application (the shell and "cat").
> 
> This may come down to terminology again. I don't know. To me, input to
> the shell is what the keys produce (scan codes) and then the keymap
> turns them into. That's what I was struggling with yesterday in
> another thread, playing about with /etc/console-setup/remap.inc.
> 
> When a character goes into the shell, it is interpreted. What then
> reflects on the screen, to me, is output from the shell.

It is a bit more complex. A character goes to the terminal first.
Run "sleep 10" in a shell, and type characters: they will appear,
but they do not come from the shell (which is just waiting for
"sleep 10" to terminate). They are echoed directly by the terminal.
The characters will go to the shell (or another application running
in the terminal) later.

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Christian Seiler]

On 08/31/2015 02:33 PM, The Wanderer wrote:
> Also, while I agree that Lennart is not out "to get us" in the sense of
> malicious laughter and diabolical plans, he _does_ seem to outright
> reject some principles which have been valued in the free-software world
> for decades, to want to see those principles crushed to whatever extent
> they interfere with his own goals, and to have zero sympathy or respect
> in practice for those who do value those principles. The end result may
> not be all that different.

I think that you are - unintentionally - assuming bad faith here, by
claiming Lennart doesn't have any sympathies or respect for other
people's opinions. How would you know that?

Yes, he's done things that you disagree with, even after he was made
aware that people feel strongly about them. But that does not imply a
lack of respect or sympathy for the opposing position in and by itself,
it just implies that he does not share certain ideas, even after having
been confronted with them, or maybe he does share them, but considers
another conflicting principle to be more important for a given
decision.

To give a trivial example of this (and this example may not be valid
anymore, it's been over 10 years that I last tried FreeBSD, so please
just take it as an example and don't read too much into it):

Let's say I write a piece of software with a command line interface and
one of the BSD people comes to me and says: please parse command line
options like BSD tools do, i.e. abort parsing after the first
non-option argument (so that options can't be appended to the end of a
command line), because this is much more in line of how POSIX specifies
that command lines should work. If I decide against that and rather use
the GNU handling of command lines, that allow options to be specified
after non-option arguments (e.g. "ls /etc -l"; BSDs will treat the -l
as an additional path to be examined by ls, not as an option), because
I think the GNU handling is a much better user experience, does that
mean I don't respect the principle of following POSIX? No, I just think
that the principle of having a better user experience (which is
obviously also subjective) is more important here than following POSIX
to the letter.

Or take another example: the GCC team's past reluctance to modularize
the compiler, in order to make it harder for proprietary vendors to
exploit it. Here you have two principles working against each other:
having a modularized compiler that makes writing other software that
processes code (e.g. IDEs, etc.) easier - or making sure that code
using the compiler stays free software. Richard Stallman and the GCC
team decided that the latter was more important than the former, but
does that mean that they didn't respect the other side?

> Agreed. For what it's worth, I don't think this particular iteration of
> the discussion has gotten nearly as heated or as hostile or as harmful
> as many of the previous ones have done.

Sure, but I would rather come to the situation where people can air
their honest disagreements here without resorting to name-calling,
greatly exaggerated hyperbole and assumptions of bad faith.

And while this has not been the worst exchange on this topic, the very
first posting in this thread is a prime example for people assuming bad
faith. Just look at the title of this thread and thus the framing of
the discussion. Instead of talking about what actually happened (that
there's a new alternative to su that fits slightly different use cases)
the title claims that su will disappear. Note that _nobody_ working
on su, neither upstream nor maintaining it in distributions, has
claimed that they will stop.

Christian



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Re: quality keyboards

[Gian Uberto Lauri]

Petter Adsen writes:

 > No, it doesn't. But it has 5 macro keys, intended to be used in
 > Windows games for sending series of keystrokes. Under Linux, they
 > simply send normal keycodes, but I believe the Windows drivers and
 > software do more than that.

Once upon a long ago there was a daemon used to respond to the
"special keys" (audio up, down, mail, browser and such) of a Logitech
keyboard.

I dismissed it with the Logitech keyboard once I purchased my Cherry
one.

But it could be hacked... It could be interesting to have the
old Qume terminals...

-- 
 /\   ___Ubuntu: ancient
/___/\_|_|\_|__|___Gian Uberto Lauri_   African word
  //--\| | \|  |   Integralista GNUslamicomeaning "I can
\/ coltivatore diretto di software   not install
 già sistemista a tempo (altrui) perso...Debian"

Warning: gnome-config-daemon considered more dangerous than GOTO

Re: the IBM keyboard

[Dan Ritter]

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 09:18:42PM -0400, Karen Lewellen wrote:
> Oh joy!  forgive my nose, especially since I missed this post at first.
> Still, I am typing right now, this very moment, on a real IBM clicky
> keyboard!
> However the cable is starting to fray,  and I was wondering if I
> would be able to replace this treasure...i. have. had. this. for. a.
> very! long time.
> Anyway, your link to this company may be a solution and I am
> sososososo happy!

You can also buy new ones at http://www.pckeyboard.com from
Unicomp, in both PS/2 and USB models.

(and other variants: TrackPoint, trackball, 122-key, and most of
these in either black or white bodies)

-dsr-

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[The Wanderer]

On 2015-08-31 at 10:49, Christian Seiler wrote:

> On 08/31/2015 02:33 PM, The Wanderer wrote:
> 
>> Also, while I agree that Lennart is not out "to get us" in the
>> sense of malicious laughter and diabolical plans, he _does_ seem to
>> outright reject some principles which have been valued in the
>> free-software world for decades, to want to see those principles
>> crushed to whatever extent they interfere with his own goals, and
>> to have zero sympathy or respect in practice for those who do value
>> those principles. The end result may not be all that different.
> 
> I think that you are - unintentionally - assuming bad faith here, by
> claiming Lennart doesn't have any sympathies or respect for other
> people's opinions. How would you know that?

Two things:

One, I said that he "_does_ seem to [...] have zero sympathy or respect
in practice for" those things. The words "seem to" were chosen
intentionally; I am actively, though perhaps not entirely successfully,
trying to avoid making assertions of things I can't know.

Two, I base this assessment on the things he has said and the ways in
which he has reacted when people have objected to various of the things
he has done - on his public comments and discussion, more than on what
has been done with systemd itself. (As has been pointed out many times,
systemd is not Lennart's baby alone, and he isn't the only one who
decides what happens with it.)

I don't have any specific examples of such comments ready to hand (I
frankly try to avoid thinking about that whole mess any more than I can
avoid, just for the sake of my own stress levels), and even if I did,
most of them by themselves don't look all that damning; it's only in the
aggregate that the picture forms.

I would _love_ to see examples indicating that he does respect those
whose values conflict with his own in these areas (or, even better, that
he does value the principles in question, even if he concludes that $X
other principles outweigh them), but I'm not even sure what would
constitute a recognizable example of that.

(If anything, I would say it's less that I'm assuming bad faith than
that I'm _concluding_ bad faith. I don't think I'm doing either, but the
latter would probably be closer to being accurate.)

>> Agreed. For what it's worth, I don't think this particular
>> iteration of the discussion has gotten nearly as heated or as
>> hostile or as harmful as many of the previous ones have done.
> 
> Sure, but I would rather come to the situation where people can air
> their honest disagreements here without resorting to name-calling,
> greatly exaggerated hyperbole and assumptions of bad faith.

I entirely agree, but given how far apart philosophically the sides of
this disagreement are, I'm not at all sure that it's reasonable to
expect that there will not be anyone even in the lowest grades of either
side who does not go that far.

> And while this has not been the worst exchange on this topic, the
> very first posting in this thread is a prime example for people
> assuming bad faith. Just look at the title of this thread and thus
> the framing of the discussion. Instead of talking about what actually
> happened (that there's a new alternative to su that fits slightly
> different use cases) the title claims that su will disappear. Note
> that _nobody_ working on su, neither upstream nor maintaining it in
> distributions, has claimed that they will stop.

Nobody working on sysvinit claimed that they would stop doing that when
systemd came along and Lennart started claiming that it was the vastly
better approach, either, and yet sysvinit is well on the way to becoming
marginalized. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable at first glance to
expect something similar to happen again, since presumably this new tool
will get installed along with systemd and the systemd ecosystem will
provide pressure (however minor or oblique) to use it. (Closer
examination may well reveal that it _is_ unreasonable on deeper
analysis.)

The Subject line is an overstatement, yes, but it's not an entirely
baseless one. Consider:

* There is apparently an interaction between su and the collection of
binaries which are known collectively as "systemd" which produces
undesirable results, and is at least arguably a bug.

* Lennart refuses to change that collection of binaries in order to
prevent this interaction from causing these results, on the grounds that
A: su is ill-defined to begin with (or so he asserts), and B: an
alternative tool which he thinks is better is already available as part
of the collection of binaries which are known collectively as "systemd".

* Therefore, the only way to avoid the friction which arises from that
interaction and its undesirable results is to either not use su or not
use systemd. (And not using systemd is an increasingly
pushing-against-the-current proposition. It's possible, but it's
becoming less and less the default.)

* Therefore there is increased disincentive to use su, and 

Re: quality keyboards

[David Wright]

Quoting rlhar...@oplink.net (rlhar...@oplink.net):
> On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
> > Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
> > keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the Internet is
> > full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from several different
> > manufacturers) built with those Cherry keyswitches.
> 
> How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
> $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
> replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?

Well it's not really possible to buy my favourite keyboard any more.

My second favourite is the IBM clicky which I still use, but with
greater headaches as it has a PS/2 connector. I'm not a blind-typing
person; I type mainly with four fingers and the left thumb (it
appears, when I try to watch myself at the same time as typing).
So the truncated LShift doesn't bother me.
As it's a UK keyboard, it would be difficult to replace. I like the
positive feel, and no keyboard had a longer cable. I do not like the
US placement of # and ~.

My favourite keyboard of all time was the VT220 (which was attached to
a mighty VT241 display). The incomparable feature was the key-click
because it was not passively generated. The click came back with the
character reflection, so it gave you *truly* active feedback.
With my EVE (Extensible Vax Editor) redefining the numeric keypad, it
was my most comfortable editing platform.

My wife (who is a true touch-typist) was also a VT220/EVE addict; so
much so that when she went to sea one time, I had to use the crude
shore-ship email system to get my 1150-line customisation file out to
her. (This was the days of Greybook Mail over X25 with gateways to
Bitnet and Arpanet, but fortunately post- the time when I could only
email ships through BT Gold, which cost real money.)

> And in our present Window$-dominated, rodent-oriented, game-addicted and
> generally-lliterate society, is there anyone who types more than a few
> dozen keystrokes a day for the purpose of intelligent conversation --
> other than subscribers to a mail list such as this, and the authors of
> pulp fiction?  (And no, I do not consider messages transmitted by
> "texting" or "twitter" to be intelligent conversation.)

Plenty of people originate and edit material with their keyboards.
(I assume you don't class scientific literature as pulp fiction!)

Cheers,
David.

Can malware qualify as free software?

[Jonathan de Boyne Pollard]

The Wanderer:

Some people develop and distribute malware as free software. Do they deserve to 
be treated with respect for doing that?


I strongly suspect that malwares do not provide freedoms #1, #2, or #3 
out of the Four Freedoms.

Re: uselessd

[Jonathan de Boyne Pollard]

T.J. Duchene:

One programmer created asystemd fork called "uselessd".


He declared it dead about six months ago.

Re: Can malware qualify as free software?

[The Wanderer]

On 2015-08-31 at 11:25, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:

> The Wanderer:
> 
>> Some people develop and distribute malware as free software. Do
>> they deserve to be treated with respect for doing that?
> 
> I strongly suspect that malwares do not provide freedoms #1, #2, or
> #3 out of the Four Freedoms.

They don't provide them to the people on whose machines they get
installed, but those people are not the "users" of the malware.

The "users" of the malware are the people who deploy it. If a malware
toolkit is provided with source, and under a "modify and redistribute as
you see fit" license, I don't see how it fails any of the Four Freedoms.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login

[Jonathan de Boyne Pollard]

The Wanderer:

Also on a mostly-cosmetic level, if you log in at a text console 
without systemd, you will get a certain set of messages, coming mostly 
from login and from your shell - but with systemd, logging in at a 
text console also produces a mess of extra messages coming from 
logind, which are largely irrelevant to whoever just logged in and 
which step all over either the original set of messages or the actual 
shell prompt.


As far as I've been able to determine, there is no way to get logind 
to not produce these messages, without also preventing it from 
producing messages later - or in background logging - which you might 
actually want. And, if I'm interpreting the situation correctly, you 
will probably see these messages in your console every time _anyone_ 
gets a new "session" on that computer, even if it's not you. This is 
the final-straw behavior which led me to reject systemd for my own 
systems.




That last part doesn't sound right.  Did you do a detailed write up of 
what's happening, anywhere?

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 31 August 2015 16:36:26 The Wanderer wrote:
> Lennart's proposed alternative (to su)

After all this discussion, I thought that I ought really to find out what 
Lennart was proposing, and I must say that it looks remarkably 
disability-unfriendly. :-(

For those who have still not discovered, you have to press ^ three times in 
succession inside a second.

https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/

Lisi

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Nicolas George]

Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
> For those who have still not discovered, you have to press ^ three times in 
> succession inside a second.
> 
> https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/

Are you referring to that snippet:

# Connected to the local host. Press ^] three times within 1s to exit session.

... or are you referring to other parts of the page that I missed or parts
in the video?

If you are referring to that snippet, I suspect you are reading it wrong.

For once, it is "^]", i.e. Ctrl-], i.e. ASCII 0x1D, aka "group separator".

You can notice it is the same as the "escape character" present in most
telnet implementations.

And my second point is: it is obviously meant for emergency exit, like
tilde-point in SSH. You should need it almost never in normal use, where you
exit either by typing the command "exit" or by sending the EOF code (usually
Ctrl-D), just like su.

Actually, AFAIK neither sudo nor su support an emergency exit sequence. If
that has not bothered you until now, it should not bother you from now on
either.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Re: quality keyboards

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blinkenlights

Ah. That's the original version of
"Gnebbsche drigge derfe nur mir, die expedde."
Frankfurt hassian for
"Button pressing is reserved to us, the experts."


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login

[The Wanderer]

On 2015-08-31 at 11:32, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:

> The Wanderer:
> 
>> Also on a mostly-cosmetic level, if you log in at a text console 
>> without systemd, you will get a certain set of messages, coming
>> mostly from login and from your shell - but with systemd, logging
>> in at a text console also produces a mess of extra messages coming
>> from logind, which are largely irrelevant to whoever just logged in
>> and which step all over either the original set of messages or the
>> actual shell prompt.
>> 
>> As far as I've been able to determine, there is no way to get
>> logind to not produce these messages, without also preventing it
>> from producing messages later - or in background logging - which
>> you might actually want. And, if I'm interpreting the situation
>> correctly, you will probably see these messages in your console
>> every time _anyone_ gets a new "session" on that computer, even if
>> it's not you. This is the final-straw behavior which led me to
>> reject systemd for my own systems.
> 
> That last part doesn't sound right.  Did you do a detailed write up
> of what's happening, anywhere?

No, but I believe I still have my laptop configured in a way which gets
this behavior. If you want, I can reboot it and do a detailed
examination; I'm probably about due for a reboot of that laptop, anyway.

I need to leave for work soon, however, so that won't happen before
tomorrow morning at the earliest.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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Re: quality keyboards

[Glenn English]

Yet another vote for Cherry. They are lovely.

The 'clicks' on mine come from the key hitting the bottom, not from something 
in the switch. You select how loud the clicks are.

And 'most everything is made for Winders these days -- just ignore the key with 
the little flag on it. It never occurred to me that a Winders keyboard might 
not work with Debian.

Cherry makes about a thousand different keyboards. Some of them have toasters 
on them :-)

I got a really simple one with good switches; no back lighted keys, no mouse 
touchpad, no number pad, nothing extra. Just a compact USB qwerty with good 
switches. Well, one extra: it has USB ports on the back, for the mouse. And 
maybe an external USB disk. One less thing to plug into the scarce USB ports on 
your Raspberry Pi.

There's another model that looks like mine, but with not as cool switches, but 
still a good keyboard. I've got a couple of those in the junk box, with PS-2 
connectors, that you can have if you like. (Cherry's last a long time.)

Mine has a couple model numbers on it: D-91275 and MX 1800 USB-2D. It was 
expensive, but not as bad as I've seen in this thread (~$80 from DigiKey, 
IIRC). I'd definitely go with a good one and type happily and noisily, without 
failures, for a long time.

-- 
Glenn English

Re: No-one working on 'su' has stated that they will stop.

[Jonathan de Boyne Pollard]

Christian Seiler:
Note that _nobody_ working on su, neither upstream nor maintaining it 
in distributions, has claimed that they will stop.


Indeed.  The implication that su is being replaced has, rather, come 
from the technology journalists and web log diarists writing headlines ...


* Paul Carroty's piece referenced from this thread: "... 'su' command 
replacement ..."
* Sam Varghese in ITWire: "Systemd's latest conquest: the 'su' command" 
and "It remains to be seen which other functions systemd will seek to 
take over. " in the body
* Softpedia: "systemd 225 Adds 'su' Replacement" with "'machinectl 
shell' is the new 'su' replacement in systemd" as the subtitle
* Lukáš Jelínek in LinuxExpress: "Funkcionalita příkazu 'su' začleněna 
do systemd"

* Petr Krčmář in root.cz: "Do systemd je integrována náhrada za 'su'"
* Michael Larabel in Phoronix: " The machinectl shell command is meant 
to replace su for running privileged sessions. " in the opening


... and in part from the systemd version 225 release notes:

Hence, 'machinectl shell' can be used as [a] replacement for 'su' 
which spawns the session as a fresh systemd unit.


Interestingly, neither the 7-year-old Freedesktop.org pkexec (su, but 
using Freedesktop.org's own PolicyKit) nor FreeBSD's "/etc/rc.d/jail 
console myjail1" have made such headlines.  (-:

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Christian Seiler]

On 08/31/2015 05:36 PM, The Wanderer wrote:
> Two, I base this assessment on the things he has said and the ways in
> which he has reacted when people have objected to various of the things
> he has done - on his public comments and discussion,

I get the opposite impression, that's why I responded they way I did to
your assertion.

I don't want to talk behind the back about someone without them being
present, so I'll not go into further detail - but just the fact that I
have a completely different impression than you do may indicate that
you are indeed subconsciously not trying to assume good faith on his
part.

>> Sure, but I would rather come to the situation where people can air
>> their honest disagreements here without resorting to name-calling,
>> greatly exaggerated hyperbole and assumptions of bad faith.
> 
> I entirely agree, but given how far apart philosophically the sides of
> this disagreement are, I'm not at all sure that it's reasonable to
> expect that there will not be anyone even in the lowest grades of either
> side who does not go that far.

The problem is not that there is every once in a while somebody who
crosses the line a bit, because things got a bit emotional - the
problem is that I see it far too often that systemd opponents cross
that line - just take my two initial replies in this thread as an
example.

>> And while this has not been the worst exchange on this topic, the
>> very first posting in this thread is a prime example for people
>> assuming bad faith. Just look at the title of this thread and thus
>> the framing of the discussion. Instead of talking about what actually
>> happened (that there's a new alternative to su that fits slightly
>> different use cases) the title claims that su will disappear. Note
>> that _nobody_ working on su, neither upstream nor maintaining it in
>> distributions, has claimed that they will stop.
> 
> Nobody working on sysvinit claimed that they would stop doing that when
> systemd came along and Lennart started claiming that it was the vastly
> better approach, either, and yet sysvinit is well on the way to becoming
> marginalized. It doesn't seem entirely unreasonable at first glance to
> expect something similar to happen again,

There are two very important distinctions:

1. Most importantly, there can only be one central init system active
at any given time. init systems are special in that way. This is
definitely not the case with su - there are already alternatives to su
installed on many systems - take sudo and pkexec. So the fact that
there's now another alternative - even if it happens to be installed on
every system by default - will not mean that su is going to be
disappear - just because su will still work as it did before even if an
alternative is present.

2. Also, very many people were yearning desperately for an alternative
to sysvinit. You might not have been, other people opposed to systemd
might not have been - but there's a reason why sysvinit wasn't even a
strong contender in the TC decision in Debian (that was systemd vs.
upstart vs. maybe openrc) - because a lot of people were actively
looking for something that fixed a lot of the conceptual problems it
has. You might disagree here, and I really don't want to reiterate the
discussion on that specific topic - my point just is that there were a
lot of people (myself included) that were really glad when systemd
came along, because it really filled a need that was present in at
least parts of the community. I don't see anything even remotely
similar going on with su. Most people who use su are perfectly happy
with it and are not looking for something new.

> * There is apparently an interaction between su and the collection of
> binaries which are known collectively as "systemd" which produces
> undesirable results, and is at least arguably a bug.

Yes, but if you look closely the problem is the following: a certain
environment variable that is set by libpam-systemd upon login, namely
XDG_RUNTIME_DIR, is not set when using su. If you don't use the
systemd components, that environment variable isn't set at all - and
from my personal experience, I have never needed the functionality for
which the variable is used in shells I've opened with su. So it's not
like su is suddenly broken - it's just that some specific new use cases
don't work properly with it.

If you're currently happy with su, nothing will change for you.

> * Lennart refuses to change that collection of binaries in order to
> prevent this interaction from causing these results, on the grounds that
> A: su is ill-defined to begin with (or so he asserts),

Well, kind of. The problem is that there are lots of bits an pieces
that go into the concept of what a 'session' is under Linux - and su
has historically altered some of those things, but kept others to be
the same as the session it was called from. Since the part of the
session that XDG_RUNTIME_DIR is tied to is not changed by su, the
systemd developers 

Re: Can malware qualify as free software?

[Reco]

 Hi.

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 16:25:29 +0100
Jonathan de Boyne Pollard 
wrote:

> The Wanderer:
> > Some people develop and distribute malware as free software. Do they 
> > deserve to be treated with respect for doing that?
> 
> I strongly suspect that malwares do not provide freedoms #1, #2, or #3 
> out of the Four Freedoms.
> 

Depends on malware we're talking about. For example, famous Metasploit
Framework is provided as 3-clause BSD (although parts of it are
licensed on terms of GPL2, MIT and LGPL) - [1]. Free software at its
finest.

[1] https://github.com/rapid7/metasploit-framework/blob/master/LICENSE

Reco

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Christian Seiler]

On 08/31/2015 05:48 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Monday 31 August 2015 16:36:26 The Wanderer wrote:
>> Lennart's proposed alternative (to su)
> 
> After all this discussion, I thought that I ought really to find out what 
> Lennart was proposing, and I must say that it looks remarkably 
> disability-unfriendly. :-(
> 
> For those who have still not discovered, you have to press ^ three times in 
> succession inside a second.

Well, if you want to force-close the session. su/sudo/pkexec don't
support that at all, as far as I know, so while there certainly is room
for improvement when it comes to accessibility (and the formulation of
the message) here, it isn't worse than su/sudo either.

If you want to exit the shell normally, typically the 'exit' command
will suffice (it depends on your shell, obviously).

Christian



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Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 31 August 2015 17:43:00 Christian Seiler wrote:
> On 08/31/2015 05:48 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Monday 31 August 2015 16:36:26 The Wanderer wrote:
> >> Lennart's proposed alternative (to su)
> >
> > After all this discussion, I thought that I ought really to find out what
> > Lennart was proposing, and I must say that it looks remarkably
> > disability-unfriendly. :-(
> >
> > For those who have still not discovered, you have to press ^ three times
> > in succession inside a second.
>
> Well, if you want to force-close the session. su/sudo/pkexec don't
> support that at all, as far as I know, so while there certainly is room
> for improvement when it comes to accessibility (and the formulation of
> the message) here, it isn't worse than su/sudo either.
>
> If you want to exit the shell normally, typically the 'exit' command
> will suffice (it depends on your shell, obviously).


It seems to be even worse:
$ machinectl shell
Connected to the local host. Press ^] three times within 1s to exit session.
sh-4.3# id
uid=0(root) gid=0(root) groups=0(root) 
context=unconfined_u:unconfined_r:unconfined_t:s0
sh-4.3# whoami  
root
sh-4.3#
so: ^]

Su is _much_ easier to type, and there is no restrictive time limit on how 
long you can take typing it.

the illustration shows moving from user to root. $ to #

It is, as I said, very disability unfriendly.  su is not.

Lisi

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Nicolas George]

Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
> Su is _much_ easier to type, and there is no restrictive time limit on how 
> long you can take typing it.
> 
> the illustration shows moving from user to root. $ to #
> 
> It is, as I said, very disability unfriendly.  su is not.

What are you talking about? The command to start the shell, or the key
sequence to exit it?

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 31 August 2015 18:08:21 pecon...@mesanetworks.net wrote:
> On a jessie system, I can interrupt an Emacs file edit session with cntrlZ.
> My only self acknowledged disabilities are mild loss of cognitive function
> and frequent finger fumbles at the keyboard, so I don't know what a person
> who cannot press-and-hold cntrl and then press Z must do, but surely key
> entry of cntrlZ is already a solved problem, but maybe not.

Does  cntrlZ give you a root shell so that you can function as root?  If not, 
in what way is it an alternative to su?

Could you possibly not answer, if you answer, to my private address, but only 
to Debian list?  Thanks.

Lisi

Re: something at init is taking about 31s to finish

[Curt]

On 2015-08-31,   wrote:
>
>> I understand the whole "oh noes, firmware is a binary blob with unknown
>> contents [...]
>
> It seems you don't :-)
>
>> By not installing the firmware package, you are just making your life
>> harder without gaining anything but a delayed boot.
>
> There sure should be anoher way?
>

You could always use that thirty seconds to read, for example:


 Buffalo Bill's

 defunct

who used to

ride a watersmooth-silver

  stallion

 and break onetwothreefourfive pigeonsjustlikethat

  Jesus



 he was a handsome man

   and what i want to know is

 how do you like your blueeyed boy

 Mister Death


Among so many others.

Just a thought. 

Curt

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 31 August 2015 16:59:48 Nicolas George wrote:
> Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
> > For those who have still not discovered, you have to press ^ three times
> > in succession inside a second.
> >
> > https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/
>
> Are you referring to that snippet:
>
> # Connected to the local host. Press ^] three times within 1s to exit
> session.
>
> ... or are you referring to other parts of the page that I missed or parts
> in the video?
>
> If you are referring to that snippet, I suspect you are reading it wrong.
>
> For once, it is "^]", i.e. Ctrl-], i.e. ASCII 0x1D, aka "group separator".
>
> You can notice it is the same as the "escape character" present in most
> telnet implementations.
>
> And my second point is: it is obviously meant for emergency exit, like
> tilde-point in SSH. You should need it almost never in normal use, where
> you exit either by typing the command "exit" or by sending the EOF code
> (usually Ctrl-D), just like su.
>
> Actually, AFAIK neither sudo nor su support an emergency exit sequence. If
> that has not bothered you until now, it should not bother you from now on
> either.

Then I have misunderstood, which does not surprise me.  

What is the alternative to su that there is so much fuss about?  And I don't 
care about the session ending function it apparently has.   will change 
me to root and  will change me to the user.  Is that what people 
fear will disappear?  And what do they fear will be put in its place?  (Yes, 
I understand that so far it is in addition, not instead of, but what is the 
fuss about?  What has Lennart proposed?)

Lisi

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[David Wright]

Quoting The Wanderer (wande...@fastmail.fm):

> Debian could not have chosen systemd if Lennart had not written it, and
> Debian could not have chosen systemd-in-its-current-form if Lennart had
> not designed it in that form, so some layer of the blame does fall on
> him.

That's a very interesting argument. Can we apply it to Presidents' parents?

> There are plenty of reports of systems which worked just fine with a
> given configuration which do not work with that configuration after
> being transitioned to systemd; for one easy non-cosmetic example (there
> are apparently others), consider the "a failed mount which is not
> explicitly marked for failures to be ignored will result in a failed
> boot" behavior, which did not occur without systemd but does happen with
> systemd.
> 
> Yes, you can change your system's configuration to make it work, but in
> a stable system you shouldn't have to. (And I'm not talking about
> "stable" in the sense of the Debian repository codenames; I'm talking
> about 'stable" in the larger sense.)

I can't see what's wrong with adding new features or with changing
defaults. Your example was documented in the release notes.
Personally I'm more unhappy with the fact that the fstab man page
implies the file is interpreted whereas systemd's behaviour is more
like as if it's been compiled.

> On a more cosmetic level, without systemd, if you use a "quiet" option
> on the kernel command line you will silence kernel output during boot
> but not silence service-startup (etc.) option during the later stages of
> the bootstrap process - but with systemd, using that option silences
> both kernel output _and_ service-startup (etc.) output..
> 
> Yes, you can add half-a-dozen-ish systemd-specific options on the kernel
> command line to get systemd to display the same combination of output
> types as would have happened by default without systemd - but if you
> have to change your system configuration in order to get the same
> behavior, that system is not behaving in a stable fashion.

All I've added to /etc/default/grub is   systemd.show_status=true
which gives me about the same level of output from booting as
before. (A bit more, it's true: eg it says both starting and started
for each service, and the granularity is finer.)

> Also on a mostly-cosmetic level, if you log in at a text console without
> systemd, you will get a certain set of messages, coming mostly from
> login and from your shell - but with systemd, logging in at a text
> console also produces a mess of extra messages coming from logind, which
> are largely irrelevant to whoever just logged in and which step all over
> either the original set of messages or the actual shell prompt.
> 
> As far as I've been able to determine, there is no way to get logind to
> not produce these messages, without also preventing it from producing
> messages later - or in background logging - which you might actually
> want. And, if I'm interpreting the situation correctly, you will
> probably see these messages in your console every time _anyone_ gets a
> new "session" on that computer, even if it's not you. This is the
> final-straw behavior which led me to reject systemd for my own systems.

I've tried to work out what you're talking about here. Here's a
comparison of my (admittedly rather noisy) VC login on two systems:

west!david 12:22:14 ~ $ diff -U0 VC-login-*[ey]
--- VC-login-jessie 2015-08-31 11:34:23.476573261 -0500
+++ VC-login-wheezy 2015-08-31 11:38:11.0 -0500
@@ -0,0 +1,3 @@
+[] Starting MTA:hostname --fqdn did not return a fully qualified
name, dc_minimaldns will not work.
+Please fix your /etc/hosts setup.
+[ ok 4.
@@ -2 +5 @@
-Debian GNU/Linux jessie/sid west tty2 Mon Aug 31  2015  11:32:04
+Debian GNU/Linux 7 wheezy alum tty1 Mon Aug 31  2015  06:01:14
@@ -4 +7 @@
-west login: david
+alum login: david
@@ -6,2 +9,2 @@
-Last login: Mon Aug 31 08:37:15 CDT 2015 on tty2
-Linux west 3.16.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.16.7-ckt11-1+deb8u3
(2015-08-04) i686
+Last login: Mon Aug 31 09:44:02 CDT 2015 from west on pts/3
+Linux alum 3.2.0-4-686-pae #1 SMP Debian 3.2.68-1+deb7u3 i686
@@ -15 +18 @@
-You have new mail.
+You have mail.
@@ -18,6 +21,6 @@
-(This is /home/david/.bash-1-west 2015 July 13 on jessie)
-(This is /home/david/.bash-9-west 2015 August 04)
-Disks last checked: Tuesday 18 August
-west!david 11:32:11 ~ $ ls -l /sbin/init
-lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 May 26 11:40 /sbin/init ->
/lib/systemd/systemd
-west!david 11:33:27 ~ $ cat > VC-login-jessie
+(This is /home/david/.bash-1-alum 2015 July 13 on wheezy)
+(This is /home/david/.bash-9-alum 2015 July 29)
+Disks last checked: Friday 28 August
+alum!david 11:37:01 ~ $ ls -l /sbin/init
+-rwxr-xr-x 1 root root 35216 Jul 17  2013 /sbin/init
+alum!david 11:37:12 ~ $ cat > VC-login-wheezy
1 west!david 12:22:24 ~ $ 

> (And, no, logind is not systemd-the-PID1-binary - but is part of
> systemd-the-collection-of-other-binaries-which-orbit-that-binary, and is
> 

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 31 August 2015 18:12:44 Nicolas George wrote:
> What are you talking about? The command to start the shell, or the key
> sequence to exit it?

Using su to change user.

Lisi

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Nicolas George]

Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
> > What are you talking about? The command to start the shell, or the key
> > sequence to exit it?
> Using su to change user.

Then I do not agree with your statement that "machinectl shell" is less
disability-friendly than su, quite the contrary.

Two-letters commands are a scarce resource, there are only 676 of them
(assuming you do not want to mix case), and much less of them that look or
sound like something.

"machinectl shell" is long to type, there is no doubt about, but at that
cost, it does not pollute the command namespace: you do not type it by
accident, it does not clutter completion. If you need it infrequently,
typing all of it is negligible; if you need it frequently, you can use a
shell alias to make it shorter: alias mcshell="machinectl shell"; if you
need it very very frequently, you can even decide to give it a single letter
alias. Entirely your choice.

su, on the other hand, is taking a valuable 1/676 of the completion
namespace for itself, whether you use it or not, whether you want it or not.

If Poettering had used a short command for his new tool, that would have
been a valid complaint against it, because anyone can make something they
use shorter and more accessible, but once something is in the way, it stays
there.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Nicolas George]

Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
> Then I have misunderstood, which does not surprise me.  

With all the disinformation flying around when it comes to systemd, it is
hardly surprising.

> What is the alternative to su that there is so much fuss about?  And I don't 
> care about the session ending function it apparently has.

Well, it may happen that some day you will be glad it has it, and until
then, it is very unlikely to get in your way in any way.

> will change 
> me to root and  will change me to the user.

The thing is, when you are switching user like that, there is a lot of black
magic going on inside the TTY layer of the kernel to ensure that it seems to
work like it always do: ctrl-C to interrupt the program, ctrl-Z to suspend
it, input going to the correct command, etc. Furthermore, the new user is a
spawn of the old user's process, and as such it inherits most of its
environment.

This kind of black magic is quite annoying for people designing systems
because it makes auditing for security that much harder: what if the users
destroys the tty at the wrong time? what if the user sets the LC_SOMETHING
variable to a strange valuue? su implementations try to sanitize the
environment, but there have been various failures in the past that have
resulted in security issues.

I have not looked at how machinectl shell works, but my guess is that it
works like a lightweight local SSH: the new user and the old user are not
related as processes, they only communicate through a socket. The new user
process is started by systemd, with a sane and controlled environment. With
a more isolated and controlled model like that, security audit is much
easier.

>Is that what people 
> fear will disappear?  And what do they fear will be put in its place?  (Yes, 
> I understand that so far it is in addition, not instead of, but what is the 
> fuss about?  What has Lennart proposed?)

I would not like to make cheap psychology, but I have the impression that a
lot of people flying mud against systemd are actually afraid that the
knowledge and competence they accumulated over the years will become
obsolete.

There are valid criticisms to be made against systemd, both on a technical
and political level. I myself find it too complex over-engineered.

But still, the old init system was completely braindead (more on that on
demand), and systemd is the only revamp that managed to get traction while
getting in the right direction of having an init system with an actual
brain.

Regards,

-- 
  Nicolas George


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Description: Digital signature

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Reco]

 Hi.

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:42:20 +0200
Nicolas George  wrote:

> Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
> > > What are you talking about? The command to start the shell, or the key
> > > sequence to exit it?
> > Using su to change user.
> 
> Then I do not agree with your statement that "machinectl shell" is less
> disability-friendly than su, quite the contrary.
> 
> Two-letters commands are a scarce resource, there are only 676 of them
> (assuming you do not want to mix case), and much less of them that look or
> sound like something.
> 
> "machinectl shell" is long to type, there is no doubt about, but at that
> cost, it does not pollute the command namespace: you do not type it by
> accident, it does not clutter completion. If you need it infrequently,
> typing all of it is negligible; if you need it frequently, you can use a
> shell alias to make it shorter: alias mcshell="machinectl shell"; if you
> need it very very frequently, you can even decide to give it a single letter
> alias. Entirely your choice.

Have you ever tried to dictate some commands over the phone (bonus
points are granted if the recipient does not know English)? In this
particular case, "more is less", and "less is more".

Reco 

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Reco]

 Hi.

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 18:25:09 +0100
Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> On Monday 31 August 2015 16:59:48 Nicolas George wrote:
> > Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
> > > For those who have still not discovered, you have to press ^ three times
> > > in succession inside a second.
> > >
> > > https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/
> >
> > Are you referring to that snippet:
> >
> > # Connected to the local host. Press ^] three times within 1s to exit
> > session.
> >
> > ... or are you referring to other parts of the page that I missed or parts
> > in the video?
> >
> > If you are referring to that snippet, I suspect you are reading it wrong.
> >
> > For once, it is "^]", i.e. Ctrl-], i.e. ASCII 0x1D, aka "group separator".
> >
> > You can notice it is the same as the "escape character" present in most
> > telnet implementations.
> >
> > And my second point is: it is obviously meant for emergency exit, like
> > tilde-point in SSH. You should need it almost never in normal use, where
> > you exit either by typing the command "exit" or by sending the EOF code
> > (usually Ctrl-D), just like su.
> >
> > Actually, AFAIK neither sudo nor su support an emergency exit sequence. If
> > that has not bothered you until now, it should not bother you from now on
> > either.
> 
> Then I have misunderstood, which does not surprise me.  
> 
> What is the alternative to su that there is so much fuss about?  And I don't 
> care about the session ending function it apparently has.   will change 
> me to root and  will change me to the user.  Is that what people 
> fear will disappear?  And what do they fear will be put in its place?  (Yes, 
> I understand that so far it is in addition, not instead of, but what is the 
> fuss about?  What has Lennart proposed?)

It's really simple.

1) Boot with init=/bin/sh kernel commandline.

2) Invoke su - . Observe the result.

3) Invoke "machinectl shell". Observe the result.

4) Compare results from 2) and 3).

Reco

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Erwan David]

Le 31/08/2015 20:27, Reco a écrit :
>  Hi.
>
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 18:25:09 +0100
> Lisi Reisz  wrote:
>
>> On Monday 31 August 2015 16:59:48 Nicolas George wrote:
>>> Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
 For those who have still not discovered, you have to press ^ three times
 in succession inside a second.

 https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/
>>> Are you referring to that snippet:
>>>
>>> # Connected to the local host. Press ^] three times within 1s to exit
>>> session.
>>>
>>> ... or are you referring to other parts of the page that I missed or parts
>>> in the video?
>>>
>>> If you are referring to that snippet, I suspect you are reading it wrong.
>>>
>>> For once, it is "^]", i.e. Ctrl-], i.e. ASCII 0x1D, aka "group separator".
>>>
>>> You can notice it is the same as the "escape character" present in most
>>> telnet implementations.
>>>
>>> And my second point is: it is obviously meant for emergency exit, like
>>> tilde-point in SSH. You should need it almost never in normal use, where
>>> you exit either by typing the command "exit" or by sending the EOF code
>>> (usually Ctrl-D), just like su.
>>>
>>> Actually, AFAIK neither sudo nor su support an emergency exit sequence. If
>>> that has not bothered you until now, it should not bother you from now on
>>> either.
>> Then I have misunderstood, which does not surprise me.  
>>
>> What is the alternative to su that there is so much fuss about?  And I don't 
>> care about the session ending function it apparently has.   will change 
>> me to root and  will change me to the user.  Is that what people 
>> fear will disappear?  And what do they fear will be put in its place?  (Yes, 
>> I understand that so far it is in addition, not instead of, but what is the 
>> fuss about?  What has Lennart proposed?)
> It's really simple.
>
> 1) Boot with init=/bin/sh kernel commandline.
>
> 2) Invoke su - . Observe the result.
>
> 3) Invoke "machinectl shell". Observe the result.
>
> 4) Compare results from 2) and 3).
>
> Reco
>
>

This does nbot say anything aboiut su. Just that systemd was done
AGAINST unix and unix users. And thus does noit work well with unix command.

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 31 August 2015 19:27:31 Reco wrote:
>  Hi.
>
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 18:25:09 +0100
>
> Lisi Reisz  wrote:
> > On Monday 31 August 2015 16:59:48 Nicolas George wrote:
> > > Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
> > > > For those who have still not discovered, you have to press ^ three
> > > > times in succession inside a second.
> > > >
> > > > https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/
> > >
> > > Are you referring to that snippet:
> > >
> > > # Connected to the local host. Press ^] three times within 1s to exit
> > > session.
> > >
> > > ... or are you referring to other parts of the page that I missed or
> > > parts in the video?
> > >
> > > If you are referring to that snippet, I suspect you are reading it
> > > wrong.
> > >
> > > For once, it is "^]", i.e. Ctrl-], i.e. ASCII 0x1D, aka "group
> > > separator".
> > >
> > > You can notice it is the same as the "escape character" present in most
> > > telnet implementations.
> > >
> > > And my second point is: it is obviously meant for emergency exit, like
> > > tilde-point in SSH. You should need it almost never in normal use,
> > > where you exit either by typing the command "exit" or by sending the
> > > EOF code (usually Ctrl-D), just like su.
> > >
> > > Actually, AFAIK neither sudo nor su support an emergency exit sequence.
> > > If that has not bothered you until now, it should not bother you from
> > > now on either.
> >
> > Then I have misunderstood, which does not surprise me.
> >
> > What is the alternative to su that there is so much fuss about?  And I
> > don't care about the session ending function it apparently has.  
> > will change me to root and  will change me to the user.  Is
> > that what people fear will disappear?  And what do they fear will be put
> > in its place?  (Yes, I understand that so far it is in addition, not
> > instead of, but what is the fuss about?  What has Lennart proposed?)
>
> It's really simple.
>
> 1) Boot with init=/bin/sh kernel commandline.
>
> 2) Invoke su - . Observe the result.
>
> 3) Invoke "machinectl shell". Observe the result.
>
> 4) Compare results from 2) and 3).

Thanks for the replies.  But I still don't know what is "going" and what 
is "coming".

Oh well, I shall no doubt discover.  At the moment on my Jessie machine I can 
open a terminal, su into root, perform whatever it is, and su out.

I'll worry about it when/if I can't.

Is the proposed change only going to have an effect so early in the process?

But I'll try the above, Reco.

Lisi

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Brian]

On Mon 31 Aug 2015 at 11:36:26 -0400, The Wanderer wrote:

> The Subject line is an overstatement, yes, but it's not an entirely
> baseless one. Consider:

The power of language! What is clearly a distortion of the situation
related at

  https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/825

becomes an "overstatement", a minor matter; nothing to worry about; the
lad just got carried away and, anyway, all things in love and war etc.

And because it is an "overstatement" it is accorded a status which
merits serious discussion on this List instead of being dismissed for
what it is.

Yet more advocacy to add to the 3,200+ posts we have in -user. Only
about 1.5% of them are from the OP but he is trying hard to get up to
2%. :) The fight must go on! To hell with helping users.

The Subject line and the mail content are entirely baseless because they
have twisted the facts to support a particular view. If the OP had
wished to discuss the technical merits of the addition to systemd his
mail would have looked different. Why it didn't is left as an exercise
for the reader.

"There must be some truth in that rumour. It cannot be baseless" is
quite a common view.

-- 
Sent from my init-agnostic account.

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Reco]

 Hi.

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:40:54 +0100
Lisi Reisz  wrote:

> On Monday 31 August 2015 19:27:31 Reco wrote:
> >  Hi.
> >
> > On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 18:25:09 +0100
> >
> > Lisi Reisz  wrote:
> > > On Monday 31 August 2015 16:59:48 Nicolas George wrote:
> > > > Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
> > > > > For those who have still not discovered, you have to press ^ three
> > > > > times in succession inside a second.
> > > > >
> > > > > https://tlhp.cf/lennart-poettering-su/
> > > >
> > > > Are you referring to that snippet:
> > > >
> > > > # Connected to the local host. Press ^] three times within 1s to exit
> > > > session.
> > > >
> > > > ... or are you referring to other parts of the page that I missed or
> > > > parts in the video?
> > > >
> > > > If you are referring to that snippet, I suspect you are reading it
> > > > wrong.
> > > >
> > > > For once, it is "^]", i.e. Ctrl-], i.e. ASCII 0x1D, aka "group
> > > > separator".
> > > >
> > > > You can notice it is the same as the "escape character" present in most
> > > > telnet implementations.
> > > >
> > > > And my second point is: it is obviously meant for emergency exit, like
> > > > tilde-point in SSH. You should need it almost never in normal use,
> > > > where you exit either by typing the command "exit" or by sending the
> > > > EOF code (usually Ctrl-D), just like su.
> > > >
> > > > Actually, AFAIK neither sudo nor su support an emergency exit sequence.
> > > > If that has not bothered you until now, it should not bother you from
> > > > now on either.
> > >
> > > Then I have misunderstood, which does not surprise me.
> > >
> > > What is the alternative to su that there is so much fuss about?  And I
> > > don't care about the session ending function it apparently has.  
> > > will change me to root and  will change me to the user.  Is
> > > that what people fear will disappear?  And what do they fear will be put
> > > in its place?  (Yes, I understand that so far it is in addition, not
> > > instead of, but what is the fuss about?  What has Lennart proposed?)
> >
> > It's really simple.
> >
> > 1) Boot with init=/bin/sh kernel commandline.
> >
> > 2) Invoke su - . Observe the result.
> >
> > 3) Invoke "machinectl shell". Observe the result.
> >
> > 4) Compare results from 2) and 3).
> 
> Thanks for the replies.  But I still don't know what is "going" and what 
> is "coming".

2) should work. 3) should not.

Since booting with "init=/bin/sh" is one of the valid ways of
thoubleshooting failing OS, replacing "su" with "machinectl shell"
effectively limits usefulness of such approach.

I'm *not* saying that it will render "boot with init=/bin/sh"
completely useless, for the record. But this long road consists of
small steps, and some of them have been taken already.


> Oh well, I shall no doubt discover.  At the moment on my Jessie machine I can 
> open a terminal, su into root, perform whatever it is, and su out.
> 
> I'll worry about it when/if I can't.

That's my approach too (but I have the contingency plan already :).

 
> Is the proposed change only going to have an effect so early in the process?

Of course, not. "machinectl login" should provide the user with a new
"session" (whatever that term means in newspeak). The whole idea of [1]
is that "su" does not do so (whenever it should is another topic),
therefore "su" should be replaced.

[1] https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/825

Reco

Re: logrotate permissions problem

[D. R. Evans]

Reco wrote on 08/29/2015 12:17 PM:

> 
> Your /etc/logrotate.d/polipo should contain this line:
> 
> su proxy adm
> 

Yep.

[stuff elided]

> 
> The solution of this problem should be as simple as:
> 
> chgrp adm /var/log/polipo/pol*
> rm -f /var/log/polipo/polipo.log.1.gz

OK; I have done that, and will let you know tomorrow whether the problem has
gone away.

Thank you very much.

  Doc

-- 
Web:  http://www.sff.net/people/N7DR



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Brian]

On Mon 31 Aug 2015 at 19:42:18 +0100, Brian wrote:

> Yet more advocacy to add to the 3,200+ posts we have in -user. Only
> about 1.5% of them are from the OP but he is trying hard to get up to
> 2%. :)

That bit was incorrect. The 1.5% is for the OP's sycophantic responder.
The OP is only on about 0.6%. But he is trying hard to catch up with the
leaders. :)

Re: How come i wrote a NO-BREAK SPACE in xterm+bash ?

[David Wright]

Quoting Vincent Lefevre (vinc...@vinc17.net):
> On 2015-08-21 22:08:33 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> > Quoting Vincent Lefevre (vinc...@vinc17.net):
> > > No, here's what I said:
> > > 
> > > | In general, one wants NO-BREAK SPACE to be displayed just like
> > > | a space. The differentiation is useful mainly in source code
> > > | and when editing, thus it must be done by the application via
> > > | configuration (actually applications running in the terminal
> > > | rather than the terminal itself).
> > 
> > So we may be talking at cross-purposes here as I'm distinguishing the
> > shell (command interpreter/application launcher) from applications,
> > much as Erwan appears to in that sentence. Sorry; but that's why I wrote
> > (AIUI) just there.

That's quoted from my posting.

> 
> >From the terminal point of view, the shell is just like another
> process.

Just to make it clear: I didn't write that, even though you've made it
appear that I did by putting ">" in front of it.

> 
> Moreover, one can often start commands from other applications
> (conventional "!" shell escape), and even an interactive shell.
> So, it becomes more difficult to do the difference...

I was trying to avoid discussing the terminology of shells,
applications and terminals and concentrate on my point which is that
if a character (eg NBSP) is not treated as whitespace by the shell,
then it is better if it is not reflected on my screen as whitespace.

How the NBSP was input in the first place was the subject raised by
the OP. My point only had to do with the output from the shell.
When a possibly clumsy typist types Alt-Space and generates a NBSP
as input, the terminal doesn't have to display anything. The shell
eats the character and *it* decides how to reflect it. At that point,
it's output. (I seem now to be repeating what's written by me below.)

> 
> > > Your "counter-example" is something different because it is about
> > > input (though this doesn't really matter since the notion of context
> > > is the same for both input and output) and because the TAB handling
> > > is not done by the terminal, but by two different applications
> > > running in the terminal (the shell and "cat"). As I've said later,
> > > both applications receive TAB in input. They behave differently only
> > > because they interpret TAB differently, i.e. the differentiation is
> > > done by the application (the shell and "cat").
> > 
> > This may come down to terminology again. I don't know. To me, input to
> > the shell is what the keys produce (scan codes) and then the keymap
> > turns them into. That's what I was struggling with yesterday in
> > another thread, playing about with /etc/console-setup/remap.inc.
> > 
> > When a character goes into the shell, it is interpreted. What then
> > reflects on the screen, to me, is output from the shell.
> 
> It is a bit more complex. A character goes to the terminal first.
> Run "sleep 10" in a shell, and type characters: they will appear,
> but they do not come from the shell (which is just waiting for
> "sleep 10" to terminate). They are echoed directly by the terminal.
> The characters will go to the shell (or another application running
> in the terminal) later.

Yes. When you type ahead, the characters from the keyboard are
reflected raw. I have no argument with what is displayed at this
time. AIUI whatever is reflecting them is not parsing them so any
discussion of "whitespace" is irrelevant. At this stage, what is
actually displayed doesn't make much meaningful sense. For example,
if I type a, I see a^[[B. Interestingly, If I now press
A, when the shell eventually reflects it, it looks in my
command history for a command starting with "a". The latter is at the
stage that I'm talking about, when the characters are reflected by
the shell. I want to see NBSP displayed differently from normal
whitespace because the shell doesn't treat it as whitespace.

Here are my original words:

"Why would I want a character that doesn't behave as a space to be
displayed as a normal space? (For example, in the shell, as in the
OP's original question.) It seems a recipe for confusion at best,
and for exploits at worst."

Cheers,
David.

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Charlie Kravetz]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:42:20 +0200
Nicolas George  wrote:

>Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
>> > What are you talking about? The command to start the shell, or the key
>> > sequence to exit it?
>> Using su to change user.
>
>Then I do not agree with your statement that "machinectl shell" is less
>disability-friendly than su, quite the contrary.
>
>Two-letters commands are a scarce resource, there are only 676 of them
>(assuming you do not want to mix case), and much less of them that look or
>sound like something.
>
>"machinectl shell" is long to type, there is no doubt about, but at that
>cost, it does not pollute the command namespace: you do not type it by
>accident, it does not clutter completion. If you need it infrequently,
>typing all of it is negligible; if you need it frequently, you can use a
>shell alias to make it shorter: alias mcshell="machinectl shell"; if you
>need it very very frequently, you can even decide to give it a single letter
>alias. Entirely your choice.
>
>su, on the other hand, is taking a valuable 1/676 of the completion
>namespace for itself, whether you use it or not, whether you want it or not.
>
>If Poettering had used a short command for his new tool, that would have
>been a valid complaint against it, because anyone can make something they
>use shorter and more accessible, but once something is in the way, it stays
>there.
>
>Regards,
>

To exit the shell created with "machinectl shell", you are instructed
"Press ^] three times within 1s to exit session." That is very
unfriendly for disabled. Not all can hit any key in 1 second. To
specify two keys is even harder. There has never been mention of any
other method to exit this new shell command.

-- 
Charlie Kravetz
Linux Registered User Number 425914
[http://linuxcounter.net/user/425914.html]
Never let anyone steal your DREAM.   [http://keepingdreams.com]

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Erwan David]

Le 31/08/2015 20:53, Charlie Kravetz a écrit :
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 19:42:20 +0200
> Nicolas George  wrote:
>
>> Le quartidi 14 fructidor, an CCXXIII, Lisi Reisz a écrit :
 What are you talking about? The command to start the shell, or the key
 sequence to exit it?
>>> Using su to change user.
>> Then I do not agree with your statement that "machinectl shell" is less
>> disability-friendly than su, quite the contrary.
>>
>> Two-letters commands are a scarce resource, there are only 676 of them
>> (assuming you do not want to mix case), and much less of them that look or
>> sound like something.
>>
>> "machinectl shell" is long to type, there is no doubt about, but at that
>> cost, it does not pollute the command namespace: you do not type it by
>> accident, it does not clutter completion. If you need it infrequently,
>> typing all of it is negligible; if you need it frequently, you can use a
>> shell alias to make it shorter: alias mcshell="machinectl shell"; if you
>> need it very very frequently, you can even decide to give it a single letter
>> alias. Entirely your choice.
>>
>> su, on the other hand, is taking a valuable 1/676 of the completion
>> namespace for itself, whether you use it or not, whether you want it or not.
>>
>> If Poettering had used a short command for his new tool, that would have
>> been a valid complaint against it, because anyone can make something they
>> use shorter and more accessible, but once something is in the way, it stays
>> there.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
> To exit the shell created with "machinectl shell", you are instructed
> "Press ^] three times within 1s to exit session." That is very
> unfriendly for disabled. Not all can hit any key in 1 second. To
> specify two keys is even harder. There has never been mention of any
> other method to exit this new shell command.
>

It is also very US centric, because on non US keybaord that combination
can be difficult to press (eg on french keyboard).

Re: quality keyboards

[Don Armstrong]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015, rlhar...@oplink.net wrote:

> On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
> > Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
> > keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the Internet is
> > full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from several different
> > manufacturers) built with those Cherry keyswitches.
> 
> How much do those things cost? Now that a keyboard can be had for $10
> or $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard,
> or replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?

There's really no comparison between a rubber dome keyboard and a
quality cherry MX or gateron-based keyboard.

I've been using a kinesis advantage pro with for about 13 years now, and
I've recently picked up an ergodox;[2] both with cherry MX brown
switches.

Some of the newer mechanical keyboards coming out of the threads here:
https://geekhack.org/index.php?topic=44940.1700 are also worth checking
out if you've got the keyboard bug hard.


1: http://gallery.donarmstrong.com/don_lab/017_even_more_lab_desk_10232003.jpg
2: http://www.donarmstrong.com/posts/ergodox_keyboard/
-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

I'd sign up in a hot second for any cellular company whose motto was:
"We're less horrible than a root canal with a cold chisel."
 -- Cory Doctorow

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[T.J. Duchene]

On 08/31/2015 05:14 AM, Joel Rees wrote:


Actually, there's a couple or three questions going begging here, that
I'd like to ask:

Sure, ask away! =)



(1) TJ, have you ever built LFS? Or, even better, built a running OS
on top of the Linux kernel without even the help of the LFS tutorial
and tool set?
No, I have never used LFS.  I have, however rebuilt or otherwise 
modified: Debian, Gentoo, RedHat and others over the last couple 
decades.   That is not including other things Unix: like Solaris. No, I 
have not always had documentation and sometimes had to figure it would 
myself.


Is there a more specific answer you wanted?


(1a) If you have, have you ever implemented your own init system for a
Linux-based OS that you built yourself?

No, I never had a reason to.

As with many things, necessity breeds invention.  I have had no reason 
to invent my own when I can modify an existing one to do what I want. 
With respect, I doubt most programmers would bother creating an entirely 
new init unless they had a pressing need or just wanted something new.  
The whole point of open source is adaptation.


There are quite a few inits to chose from.  The fact that Systemd was 
created in addition to the dozen or so previously existed probably had 
more to do with cgroups than anything else if you ask me.


(2) Having done that much, have you ever kept that system maintained
and updated, even at just the level of keeping only the critical
applications patched or updated against vulnerabilities on a timely
basis?
Yes, I have.  I used to manage servers for ISPs.  Yes, I'd even patched 
them by hand because the OEM no longer provided updates.

Okay, there's actually one more question here:

(3) Have you ever done the first two while holding down a full-time,
40+ hour a week job that doesn't particularly make allowances for
employees that need to spend the time necessary for maintaining their
OS?
Well, I can honestly say "No."  As I said, I have never bothered to 
write a new init from scratch.


What you are really asking is when I was working other jobs as we all 
have, and maintain my own systems as best I could on my own time.  
Sure.  We all do the best we can.  None of us are perfect and I have 
never claimed to be either.




If you have, how long did you keep it up without developing
personality issues for lack of sleep, developing dysfunctional
digestion problems like ulcers and diabetes, and/or ending up breaking
up your family?
Well, to be perfectly honest, I do have some of those problems. Some are 
bad enough to where I am probably on medication for the rest of my 
life.  I even have a few others heaped on top of them that you didn't 
mention, like cerebral palsy and arthritis. Actually, cerebral palsy is 
why I got into computers in the first place.


I understand why you asked.  You are probably wondering if I have 
unreasonable expectations of others.  I don't.  I don't expect someone 
like Doug to compile everything from scratch, or you to rebuild Debian 
by yourself.  Conversely, I do expect anyone - myself included - to back 
up what they are saying with good reasons and at least some experience.


I also prefer that in discussions of this nature, that people maintain 
some logical distance - separating the person from the code. Lennart 
Poettering is not systemd and systemd is not Lennart Poettering. If that 
is not possible, then I really see no point in continuing.


A lot of people posting over systemd forget or do not realize a lot of 
important details - for example:


1. Many other people had added and subtracted from the code before you 
or I ever got our hands on it, including Debian.


2. GCC is also a finicky beast, and is hardly bug free.  It  matters 
what compiler is used, even when compiling the kernel, much less 
anything else. You can introduce bugs into software just by using a 
different version of GCC than what the developers are using.


3. The management tools for systemd are written in Python.  I personally 
find it a very questionable choice.  It can be considered famous for 
hard to find runtime bugs.



Take care!
T.J.

Re: How come i wrote a NO-BREAK SPACE in xterm+bash ?

[Don Armstrong]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015, David Wright wrote:
> Quoting Vincent Lefevre (vinc...@vinc17.net):
> > From the terminal point of view, the shell is just like another
> > process.
> 
> Just to make it clear: I didn't write that, even though you've made it
> appear that I did by putting ">" in front of it.

For the record, lines starting with From are often escaped with > to
avoid issues with mbox. So Vincent didn't purposefully prepend > to
that.

-- 
Don Armstrong  http://www.donarmstrong.com

"What, now?"
"Soon equates to good, later to worse, Uagen Zlepe, scholar.
Therefore, immediacy."
  -- Iain M. Banks _Look to Windward_ p 213

Re: Re: Re: live build

[Gerard ROBIN]

I got help from the debian-live list (chals)
the file auto/config must be :

#!/bin/sh

set -e

lb config noauto \
--architecture amd64 \
--bootappend-live "boot=live ip=frommedia persistence 
locales=fr_FR.UTF-8 keyboard-layouts=fr" \
--archive-areas "main contrib non-free" \
--debug \

"${@}"

and in the file persistence.conf "/ union" gives global persistence.

ip=frommedia provides the persistence of /etc/network/interfaces

man live-boot for an explanation (thanks chals)

The problem with non-free miraculously disappeared ... ?

-- 
Gerard
___
***
*  Created with "mutt 1.5.23" *
*  under Debian Linux JESSIE version 8.1  *
*  Registered Linux User #388243  *
*  https://Linuxcounter.net   *
***

Re: How to exit /bin/sh

[Jonathan de Boyne Pollard]

Charlie Kravetz:

There has never been mention of any other method to exit this new 
shell command.




Probably because the people knowledgeble in the subject thought that it 
went without saying.  It plainly doesn't, because this is the third 
place where the whole it-is-the-telnet-escape-sequence thing has come 
up.  From the machinectl manual :


This command runs the specified executable with the specified 
arguments, or/bin/sh if none is specified.




It went without saying how one exits /bin/sh .  (-:

Re: What USB3 chipsets are supported by the Jessie kernels?

[Rick Thomas]

On 08/31/15 02:19, Rick Thomas wrote:
I came across this 
https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1242321 In note 
#46 there, James Ralston suggests turning off “auto suspend” on the 
relevant USB device by doing

$ for F in /sys/bus/usb/devices/*/power/control; do echo on >”${F}"; done

I haven’t tried it yet, but it’s almost the only hope I’ve found so far.


Well... I tried it.  No help.  My test USB3 FLASH stick is recognized 
(at USB2 speeds) on the USB2 interface, but it is not seen at all on the 
USB3 interface -- there is nothing at all in the output of "dmesg" at 
the time of insertion, and, of course, no device node is created for the 
drive.


Any other suggestions, anyone?
Please!

Thanks,
Rick

Re: quality keyboards

[Anthony Maples]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

On 08/31/2015 10:06 AM, Petter Adsen wrote:
> On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 22:40:22 +0900
> Joel Rees  wrote:
> 
>> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 9:38 PM, Gian Uberto Lauri  wrote:
>>> Joel Rees writes:
>>>  >
>>>  > Say what? Since when does a keyboard need a firmware update?
>>>  >
>>>  > Hmm. Maybe the USB controller stuff, but still, ...
>>>
>>> Nope. Check the item before engaging the fingers :).
>>
>> Well, actually, I was responding to Petter, I think, whose keyboard
>> does not have the colored lights?
> 
> No, it doesn't. But it has 5 macro keys, intended to be used in
> Windows games for sending series of keystrokes. Under Linux, they
> simply send normal keycodes, but I believe the Windows drivers and
> software do more than that. There are also a couple of other keys that
> I do not know the intended use of - maybe there is some magic that needs
> firmware there.
> 
>>>  > Can you tell what the micro-controller is? Maybe try re-programming it?
>>>
>>> They are working on reverse-engineering the communication protocol and
>>> re-programming instructions.
>>
>> Do tell: Who are _they_? And do they have a website?
> 
> And if this concerns Razer keyboards, I'd also be very interested.
> 
> Petter
> 

A related article that I found a while ago:
https://spritesmods.com/?art=rapidisnake
It doesn't sound like it's for any of your keyboards, but it proves that
it is definitely possible to re-write keyboard firmware.

Also, if you find yourself with an excessive amount of free time, you
might want to take a look at some of the other projects that he's done;
they are really interesting.



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Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

--
Paul E Condon   
pecon...@mesanetworks.net


--- christ...@iwakd.de wrote:

From: Christian Seiler 
To: Lisi Reisz , debian-user@lists.debian.org
Subject: Re: Another system management tool to disappear.
Date: Mon, 31 Aug 2015 18:43:00 +0200

On 08/31/2015 05:48 PM, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Monday 31 August 2015 16:36:26 The Wanderer wrote:
>> Lennart's proposed alternative (to su)
> 
> After all this discussion, I thought that I ought really to find out what 
> Lennart was proposing, and I must say that it looks remarkably 
> disability-unfriendly. :-(
> 
> For those who have still not discovered, you have to press ^ three times in 
> succession inside a second.

Well, if you want to force-close the session. su/sudo/pkexec don't
support that at all, as far as I know, so while there certainly is room
for improvement when it comes to accessibility (and the formulation of
the message) here, it isn't worse than su/sudo either.

If you want to exit the shell normally, typically the 'exit' command
will suffice (it depends on your shell, obviously).

Christian


On a jessie system, I can interrupt an Emacs file edit session with cntrlZ.
My only self acknowledged disabilities are mild loss of cognitive function and
frequent finger fumbles at the keyboard, so I don't know what a person who 
cannot press-and-hold cntrl and then press Z must do, but surely key entry of
cntrlZ is already a solved problem, but maybe not.

Iceweasel/Firefox Sync

[Paul E Condon]

I am trying to establish a Mozilla-type Sync connection between my
Debian Jessie (systemd) desktop host and my Apple MacBook Pro. I'm
finding that password changes are being successfully transmitted from
Apple to Jessie, but changes on Jessie are not going to Apple.

I see a security fix for Iceweasel recently announced for a different
issue. Would this have a newer version of Sync, or should I look for
a backport? Or has anyone confronted this problem and found a fix?
Please help,
TIA

-- 
Paul E Condon   
pecon...@mesanetworks.net

Re: "su is really a broken concept"

[Jonathan de Boyne Pollard]

Lennart Poettering 
(https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/825#issuecomment-127917622):



Long story short:  su is really a broken concept.



Christian Seiler:


So it's not like su is suddenly broken - it's just that some specific 
new use cases don't work properly with it.




A fair number of people got their backs up for the very reason that su 
was described as "broken".  One could, of course ask whether in fact it 
is the XDG Base Directory Specification 
(http://standards.freedesktop.org/basedir-spec/basedir-spec-latest.html) 
that is the broken concept, for incorporating the notion of the only way 
that one reaches the point of running as any given user account being 
login.  ("the user being logged in ... the user first logs in ... the 
user fully logs out ... the user logs in more than once ... first login 
... last logout ... a full logout/login cycle")  Design a mechanism that 
at its foundation and throughout takes no account of adding other user 
account privileges into a login session with su, or indeed that 
processes wanting to create "runtime" files might be set-UID, and of 
course it will conflict.

Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login

[Jonathan de Boyne Pollard]

The Wanderer:

No, but I believe I still have my laptop configured in a way which 
gets this behavior. If you want, I can reboot it and do a detailed 
examination; I'm probably about due for a reboot of that laptop, anyway.




It's mainly the final part about other people's login sessions causing 
messages on unrelated terminals that is perplexing. The only mechanisms 
that immediately spring to mind for that are ones like {r,}syslog 
configured to take logind messages from the journal and write them to 
the console, splatting over whatever kernel virtual terminal happens to 
be active, which presumably you would have already thought of and checked.

Re: "su is really a broken concept"

[T.J. Duchene]

On Tue, 2015-09-01 at 01:25 +0100, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:
> Lennart Poettering 
> (https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/825#issuecomment-127917622):
> 
> > Long story short:  su is really a broken concept.
> >
> 
> Christian Seiler:
> >
> > So it's not like su is suddenly broken - it's just that some specific 
> > new use cases don't work properly with it.
> >
I don't think so.  It is what it is.  If someone can do it better, and
still keep it compatible with POSIX, more power to them.  Just let the
rest of us chose which we want. 

That is the open way.

T.J.

modificar contenido en archivos

[Ariel]

hola lista, buen dia a todos, resulta que hace tiempo hice algo al 
respecto sobre modificar el contenido de un archivo, por ejemplo, en 
concreto lo que nececito es en un archivo dado modificar todo lo que 
coincida con un valor (x) por otro valor.


estuve buscando en internet y me aparece algo relacionado con sed pero 
no me hace lo que realmente quiero, aqui les envio el comando que econtre:


|sed 's/string1/string2/g' ejemplo.txt| ? reemplazar en ejemplo.txt 
todas las ocurrencias de "string1" con "string2"


rasulta que al llevar a cabo este ejemplo me devuelve el cambio pero el 
archivo queda coo estaba anteriormente con los valores que deseo sustituir.


gracias de antemano por su acostumbrada ayuda

[Solucionado] Re: Cambiar el tamaño del texto de la barra superior (gnome-shell)

[Camaleón]

El Sun, 30 Aug 2015 16:40:22 +, Camaleón escribió:

(...)

> He seguido los pasos que indican en este hilo¹ de los foros de ArchLinux
> pero los cambios que he hecho no parecen tener efecto ni tras reiniciar
> la sesión ni ejecutando Alt+F2+r.

(...)

Bueno, pues sí que funciona. 

Al mirar la fecha del archivo "gnome-shell-theme.gresource" me he dado 
cuenta de que era de julio cuando lo copié ayer (agosto) así que debió de 
irse a otro directorio de ahí que no lo estuviera tomando. Al copiarlo a 
su ruta y reiniciar gnome-shell (Alt+F2-r) se ha aplicado correctamente.

Bufff... gracias GNOME por hacer que un simple cambio de tipo de letra se 
convierta en una pura odisea. Creo que tuve menos problemas en el 2003 
para compilar Xfree y habilitar el bytecode interpreter que en el 2015 
para decirle a gnome-shell que use Tahoma a punto 8. Rediez.

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón

Re: OT [Resetear contraseña adito vpn]

[Maykel Franco]

El día 31 de agosto de 2015, 16:42, Camaleón  escribió:
> El Mon, 31 Aug 2015 09:32:39 +0200, Maykel Franco escribió:
>
>> Buenas, he montado adito vpn sobre Debian desde hace un tiempo. Me ha
>> pasado una cosa extraña, y es que puedo acceder desde todos los usuarios
>> menos el usuario de administración... que lo llamé admin en la
>> correspondiente instalación.
>>
>> He mirado como resetear la contraseña de Adito VPN pero no encuentro
>> nada al respecto y lo que he probado no me ha funcionado.
>>
>> Es raro, creo que puede ser un bug porque lleva bastante tiempo montado
>> y siempre usamos la misma contraseña de administrador y me ha funcionado
>> siempre excepto ahora. He probado reiniciar el servicio e incluso el
>> servidor y nada...
>>
>> Use como método de autenticación PAM.
>>
>> Alguien le ha pasado esto?
>>
>> Gracias de antemano.
>
> Parece que alguien se ha preguntado lo mismo:
>
> How to reset Adito Admin Password
> http://sourceforge.net/p/openvpn-als/discussion/824507/thread/86727412/
>
> Tremendo :-O
>
> ¿No has pensando en usar alguna otra aplicación? Parece muy verde...
>
> Saludos,
>
> --
> Camaleón
>

Si es de las primeras búsquedas que haces aparece posteado pero no funciona...

Pues sí, pero funciona tan bien... En su día busqué pero no encontré
nada similar. Solo esto:

http://guac-dev.org/

Re: modificar contenido en archivos

[Manolo Díaz]

El lunes, 31 ago 2015 a las 14:52 UTC
Ariel escribió:

> hola lista, buen dia a todos, resulta que hace tiempo hice algo al 
> respecto sobre modificar el contenido de un archivo, por ejemplo, en 
> concreto lo que nececito es en un archivo dado modificar todo lo que 
> coincida con un valor (x) por otro valor.
> 
> estuve buscando en internet y me aparece algo relacionado con sed pero 
> no me hace lo que realmente quiero, aqui les envio el comando que econtre:
> 
> |sed 's/string1/string2/g' ejemplo.txt| ? reemplazar en ejemplo.txt 
> todas las ocurrencias de "string1" con "string2"
> 
> rasulta que al llevar a cabo este ejemplo me devuelve el cambio pero el 
> archivo queda coo estaba anteriormente con los valores que deseo sustituir.

Es lo que se llama un filtro: modifica la salida pero no el
original.

Si no quieres que se comporte así, puedes seguir la sugerencia de
Domingo. También es posible usar una redirección:

s/string1/string2/g' ejemplo.txt > ejemplo_modificado.txt

La diferencia es que de esta forma conserva el original.

> gracias de antemano por su acostumbrada ayuda


Saludos.
-- 
Manolo Díaz

Sobre squid

[Leonardo Serrano Berdeal]

Buenos dias. Les escribo despues de romperme mucho la cabeza y 
buscar en internet, tengo un problema con squid que no me quiere iniciar 
y me da el siguiente error



[] Starting Squid HTTP proxy: squidFATAL: logfile_daemon 
/usr/lib/squid/logfile-daemon: (2) No such file or directory

Squid Cache (Version 2.7.STABLE9): Terminated abnormally.
CPU Usage: 0.000 seconds = 0.000 user + 0.000 sys
Maximum Resident Size: 6208 KB
Page faults with physical i/o: 0
Aborted (core dumped)
 failed!

Ya no se que mas hacer

Re: OT [Resetear contraseña adito vpn]

[Camaleón]

¿El Mon, 31 Aug 2015 17:10:02 +0200, Maykel Franco escribió:

> El día 31 de agosto de 2015, 16:42, Camaleón 
> escribió:

(...)

>>> He mirado como resetear la contraseña de Adito VPN pero no encuentro
>>> nada al respecto y lo que he probado no me ha funcionado.

(...)

>> Parece que alguien se ha preguntado lo mismo:
>>
>> How to reset Adito Admin Password
>> http://sourceforge.net/p/openvpn-als/discussion/824507/thread/86727412/
>>
>> Tremendo :-O
>>
>> ¿No has pensando en usar alguna otra aplicación? Parece muy verde...
>>
>>
> Si es de las primeras búsquedas que haces aparece posteado pero no
> funciona...

Pues a mí me ha costado horrores encontrarlo porque le llaman de varias 
formas a ese aplicativo O:-)

¿Dices que lo has reinstalado y te sigue sin funcionar? ¿Y no te pide una 
nueva contraseña al instalarlo ni te vale la predeterminada (admin/
admin)? Carallo. Mira a ver si tiene algún registro de actividad en "/var/
log" pero lo que comentan en sus foros el instalador debe pedirte la 
contasreña, sí o sí:

http://sourceforge.net/p/openvpn-als/discussion/824507/thread/a901f1c6/

> Pues sí, pero funciona tan bien... 

Jolines... ¿cómo va a funcionar bien una aplicación que no permite 
restaurar la contraseña del administrador? ;-)

> En su día busqué pero no encontré nada similar. Solo esto:
> 
> http://guac-dev.org/

¿Y qué te interesa exactamente, la parte servidora o el cliente... o 
ambos?

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón

Re: Sobre squid

[Manolo Díaz]

El martes, 1 sep 2015 a las 03:29 UTC
Leonardo Serrano Berdeal escribió:

> Buenos dias. Les escribo despues de romperme mucho la cabeza y 
> buscar en internet, tengo un problema con squid que no me quiere iniciar 
> y me da el siguiente error
> 
> 
> [] Starting Squid HTTP proxy: squidFATAL: logfile_daemon 
> /usr/lib/squid/logfile-daemon: (2) No such file or directory

De squid no sé nada, pero el mensaje es claro. ¿Esa ruta aparece en
algún fichero de configuración?

> Squid Cache (Version 2.7.STABLE9): Terminated abnormally.
> CPU Usage: 0.000 seconds = 0.000 user + 0.000 sys
> Maximum Resident Size: 6208 KB
> Page faults with physical i/o: 0
> Aborted (core dumped)
>   failed!
> 
> Ya no se que mas hacer
> 
> 



-- 
Manolo Díaz

RE: Sobre squid

[Romero, Fernando]

-Mensaje original-
De: Manolo Díaz [mailto:diaz.man...@gmail.com] 
Enviado el: lunes, 31 de agosto de 2015 12:43 p.m.
Para: debian-user-spanish@lists.debian.org
Asunto: Re: Sobre squid

El martes, 1 sep 2015 a las 03:29 UTC
Leonardo Serrano Berdeal escribió:

> Buenos dias. Les escribo despues de romperme mucho la cabeza y 
> buscar en internet, tengo un problema con squid que no me quiere 
> iniciar y me da el siguiente error
> 
> 
> [] Starting Squid HTTP proxy: squidFATAL: logfile_daemon
> /usr/lib/squid/logfile-daemon: (2) No such file or directory

De squid no sé nada, pero el mensaje es claro. ¿Esa ruta aparece en algún 
fichero de configuración?

> Squid Cache (Version 2.7.STABLE9): Terminated abnormally.
> CPU Usage: 0.000 seconds = 0.000 user + 0.000 sys Maximum Resident 
> Size: 6208 KB Page faults with physical i/o: 0 Aborted (core dumped)
>   failed!
> 
> Ya no se que mas hacer
> 
> 

Comenta en la conf el logfile-daemon y proba que levante


--
Manolo Díaz

Re: Sobre squid

[Camaleón]

El Mon, 31 Aug 2015 23:29:58 -0400, Leonardo Serrano Berdeal escribió:

> Buenos dias. Les escribo despues de romperme mucho la cabeza y
> buscar en internet, tengo un problema con squid que no me quiere iniciar
> y me da el siguiente error
> 
> 
> [] Starting Squid HTTP proxy: squidFATAL: logfile_daemon
> /usr/lib/squid/logfile-daemon: (2) No such file or directory Squid Cache
> (Version 2.7.STABLE9): Terminated abnormally.
> CPU Usage: 0.000 seconds = 0.000 user + 0.000 sys Maximum Resident Size:
> 6208 KB Page faults with physical i/o: 0 Aborted (core dumped)
>   failed!
> 
> Ya no se que mas hacer

Si has instalado Squid desde los repos oficiales ese archivo debería 
estar ahí pero no cuesta nada comprobarlo:

ls -la /usr/lib/squid/

Y salvo que hayas compilado squid desde las fuentes o tengas una 
configuración "especial" (p. ej., ejecutando en una jaula) no se me 
ocurre qué más puede estar pasando.

Saludos,

-- 
Camaleón

Re: modificar contenido en archivos

[Angel Claudio Alvarez]

El Mon, 31 Aug 2015 10:52:30 -0400
Ariel  escribió:

> hola lista, buen dia a todos, resulta que hace tiempo hice algo al 
> respecto sobre modificar el contenido de un archivo, por ejemplo, en 
> concreto lo que nececito es en un archivo dado modificar todo lo que 
> coincida con un valor (x) por otro valor.
> 
> estuve buscando en internet y me aparece algo relacionado con sed pero 
> no me hace lo que realmente quiero, aqui les envio el comando que econtre:
> 
> |sed 's/string1/string2/g' ejemplo.txt| ? reemplazar en ejemplo.txt 
> todas las ocurrencias de "string1" con "string2"
> 
> rasulta que al llevar a cabo este ejemplo me devuelve el cambio pero el 
> archivo queda coo estaba anteriormente con los valores que deseo sustituir.
> 
> gracias de antemano por su acostumbrada ayuda


man sed
lee bien los parametros que tes que 'pasarle a sed

-- 
Angel Claudio Alvarez 

Re: something at init is taking about 31s to finish

[Reco]

 Hi.

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 06:58:10AM -0700, bri...@aracnet.com wrote:
> On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 13:18:19 +0200
> Sven Hartge  wrote:
> 
> > bri...@aracnet.com wrote:
> > > On Sun, 30 Aug 2015 04:25:36 +0200 Sven Hartge  wrote:
> > >> bri...@aracnet.com wrote:
> > 
> > >>> There's no way anyone can help until i can get a trace of what's
> > >>> going on at boot.
> > >> 
> > >> Jessie or newer? With systemd?
> > >> 
> > >> systemd-analyze blame
> > 
> > 
> > >  29.597s networking.service
> > >   3.256s systemd-suspend.service
> > 
> > > aha.  So I need to dig deeper into networking.service
> > 
> > networking.service is /etc/init.d/networking. Somehow the parsing and
> > acting upon /etc/network/interfaces is slow.
> > 
> > Please share the contents of /etc/network/interfaces, maybe something
> > odd stands out in there.
> > 
> 
> cat /etc/network/interfaces
> # This file describes the network interfaces available on your system
> # and how to activate them. For more information, see interfaces(5).
> 
> # The loopback network interface
> auto lo
> iface lo inet loopback
> 
> # The primary network interface
> allow-hotplug eth0
> iface eth0 inet dhcp
> 
> there's this in dmesg:
> 
> [6.210098] EXT4-fs (sda7): mounted filesystem with ordered data mode. 
> Opts: 
> (null)
> [   35.827945] r8169 :03:00.0: firmware: failed to load 
> rtl_nic/rtl8168f-1.fw (-2)
> [   35.827963] r8169 :03:00.0: Direct firmware load failed with error -2
> [   35.827965] r8169 :03:00.0: Falling back to user helper
> [   35.828580] r8169 :03:00.0 eth0: unable to load firmware patch 
> rtl_nic/rtl8168f-1.fw (-12)
> 
> so it is the dreaded r8169 firmware crappola.  the system works fine not 
> loading it.

My-my. Calling perfectly good, working out-of-the box r8169 card like that is 
way too harsh (and violates this list rules btw).
I happen to have a similar NIC in one of my PCs, and I can confirm that it 
works flawlessly without any non-free blobs.
I have not tried it with systemd, though.


> is there any way to tell the module to not even try and load it ?

Why are you so sure that it's the failing firmware loading that adds 30 seconds 
to your boot sequence? According to the dmesg, the whole ("I need firmware - oh 
well, I'll try without it") takes whooping 600us.

Start with something simple. Like replacing dhcp configuration with static IP 
assignment.

Continue with obligatory "in the case of the doubt fallback to sysvinit".

Finally, dump the network traffic during the boot of the offending host 
(requires and extra host or some trickery, though).

Reco

Re: Web Design Guidelines

[Michael Fothergill]

Dear Sir/Madam,

Good Tidings, Felicitations and Salutations be upon you!

Alas, here in Debian, we have no need of such web site design services

Blessings for a Fruit Full day.

Regards

Michael Fothergill

Re: What USB3 chipsets are supported by the Jessie kernels?

[Rick Thomas]

On Aug 31, 2015, at 12:17 AM, rlhar...@oplink.net wrote:

> On Mon, August 31, 2015 1:58 am, Rick Thomas wrote:
>> Does anybody know which USB3 interface chipsets are supported by the
>> current Debian Jessie kernel?
> 
> You may already have done this, but, if not, you might try searching
> google for "linux usb3".  The first two hits are recent posts.
> 
> RLH

Good hint…

I came across this

https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/linux/+bug/1242321

In note #46 there, James Ralston suggests turning off “auto suspend” on the 
relevant USB device by doing

> $ for F in /sys/bus/usb/devices/*/power/control; do echo on >”${F}"; done

I haven’t tried it yet, but it’s almost the only hope I’ve found so far.

Lots of folks say their USB3 ports work fine under Windoze but fail (in various 
ways) under Linux, so it’s not likely to be the hardware at fault (or at least, 
if the hardware is broken, MS has a workaround that Linux doesn’t).  I don’t 
have a working Windows boot disk for this machine, so I can’t check if my 
situation is similar.

There are several threads from the Ubuntu forums (I’m using Debian Stretch, but 
I’ll take any port in a storm!) indicating that a *lot* of people are 
encountering similar problems with USB3.

Re: something at init is taking about 31s to finish

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 11:56:09AM +0300, Reco wrote:
>  Hi.
> 
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 06:58:10AM -0700, bri...@aracnet.com wrote:

[...]

> > so it is the dreaded r8169 firmware crappola.  the system works fine not 
> > loading it.
> 
> My-my. Calling perfectly good, working out-of-the box r8169 card like that is 
> way too harsh (and violates this list rules btw).

My feeling would be that calling network cards (and firmwares) names
would be OK. Unless those are people, that is :-)

- -- t
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Version: GnuPG v1.4.12 (GNU/Linux)

iEYEARECAAYFAlXkJPAACgkQBcgs9XrR2kZdyACeLKnqX0lloOj6cHcETbJrums9
rFQAn09hKPIaQwu6dzRe9HRjcJ11CTis
=CfF5
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: Asus C100PA Flip

[Sven Arvidsson]

On Mon, 2015-08-31 at 08:06 +, joa...@joasve.se wrote:
> Tack för svar.
> 
> Jag har förstått det att denna kanske inte är bästa alternativet. Men 
> frågan är vilken man ska välja?
> 
> Jag skulle vilja ha en tablet för surf och liknande samtidigt som jag 
> vill kunna göra mer avancerade saker. Jag vill t.ex. kunna installera 
> apache om jag vill experimentera lite med java script osv.
> 
> Jag vill ha min ipad och laptop i ett.
> 
> Att det är bökigt att använda t.ex. gnome med touch gränssnitt löser 
> sig säkert med tiden och det finns ju massor med fönsterhanterare att 
> testa bara man kan få multi touch att funka.
> 
> Helst så vill jag ha varianten där man vänder runt skärmen och på så 
> sätt får tablet mode. Men jag kan tänka mig varianten där man dockar 
> en tablet i tangentbordet.
> 
> Vilken är den bästa 2 in 1 laptop (som det verkar kallas) för att 
> köra Debian. Finns det något säkert kort?
> Jag såg ett youtube klipp där någon hade fått i princip allt att 
> funka på en Acer Switch men inte tangentbordet. Man vill ju inte gå 
> på den typ en av nit. Vidare så verkar Lenovo Yoga PRO 3 vara ett 
> ganska säkert kort. Men den är lite för stor för att vara bekväm som 
> tablet i soffan.

Själva gränssnittsbiten tror jag inte heller är några problem, stödet
för touchscreen kommer säkert att stadigt utvecklas åtminstone i GNOME.

Dock verkar det svårt att hitta några bra alternativ när det gäller
hårdvara. Yoga brukar vara den som nämns.

Jag såg också att Dell sålt en Inspiron 11 3000 med Ubuntu, men trots
det verkar den fungera ganska dåligt. Nu är det dock ett tag sedan den
släpptes, så det är möjligt att buggarna fixats.

Tyvärr verkar det inte finnas speciellt mycket intresse varken hos
hårdvarutillverkarna eller hos de utvecklare som normalt arbetar med
stöd för laptops, men det är bara min egen uppfattning.

> Jag vill bara be om ursäkt för att jag missat lite artighet i min 
> frågor.

Det tycker jag inte :)

-- 
Cheers,
Sven Arvidsson
http://www.whiz.se
PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5




signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part

Re: quality keyboards

[Petter Adsen]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 09:45:03 +0200
"Gian Uberto Lauri"   wrote:

> Petter Adsen writes:
>  > On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 02:09:23 -0500
>  > rlhar...@oplink.net wrote:
>  > > How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
>  > > $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
>  > > replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?
>  > 
>  > I while back I bought a Razer Black Widow mechanical keyboard, and it
>  > cost about $100. They claim[1] that the switches will last up to 60
>  > million keystrokes, and sell both silent and clicky types. It's a
>  > really nicely built keyboard, and IMO good for typing. It also has USB
>  > and audio pass-through.
> 
> I have a Cherry keyboard under my fingers. After some years of
> continuous usage (it's my office keyboard) the original caps lost the
> marking and I got the chance to make a custom coloured key-set.
> 
> The keyboard is still the most comfortable I ever used.
> 
> I'm planning giving Razer a try, I am willing to buy a K95 with all the left
> keys - they recall me the old Sun keyboards I used as a student.
>
> The RGB version could let me emulate the colors of my custom keyset
> (black fo alphanumeric keys, blue for "shifts", green "non printable",
> yellow for cursor movement, gray for function, red for esc and 'system
> requests' and orange for insert). But this is just to make a geek happy.

I do not know if that will work under Linux, you might want to check out
how the colors-thingy is set up. The keyboard I've got is the one with
no colored lights, so I can't test it, but all the other extra features
of this keyboard are configured via Windows-only "cloud" software and
require an initialization sequence to be sent. The Python script that
is available for Linux only enables the macro keys and the Fn + media
key combinations, AFAIK.

The Windows software will also auto-update the firmware in the
keyboard, and some people have had problems with initializing the extra
keys under Linux after updating the firmware. I've never run the Windows
software, and my keyboard works fine.

The keyboard model with no lights is also quite a bit cheaper, so you
might want to do some research before you get one with lights. You
could of course ask Razer for the information necessary to enable that
functionality yourself, but they seem quite uninterested in Linux.

> The Cherry microswitches will make your fingers happy!

So will the Razer mechanical switches, they are really nice for typing.
AFAIK all the keyboards they make except the BlackWidow series use
membranes, and I have no experience with those.

All in all, there are reasons for not choosing Razer if you run Linux,
but IMO they had the most comfortable keyboards that were readily
available in local shops when I needed one, and I'm very happy with it.

Petter

-- 
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."


pgpTRlFTHSdlp.pgp
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Asus C100PA Flip

[joakim]

Jag vill bara be om ursäkt för att jag missat lite artighet i min frågor.

Med vänliga hälsningarJoakim Svensson


31 augusti 2015, joa...@joasve.se skrev:
> Tack för svar.
> 
> Jag har förstått det att denna kanske inte är bästa alternativet. Men frågan 
> är vilken man ska välja?
> 
> Jag skulle vilja ha en tablet för surf och liknande samtidigt som jag vill 
> kunna göra mer avancerade saker. Jag vill t.ex. kunna installera apache om 
> jag vill experimentera lite med java script osv.
> 
> Jag vill ha min ipad och laptop i ett.
> 
> Att det är bökigt att använda t.ex. gnome med touch gränssnitt löser sig 
> säkert med tiden och det finns ju massor med fönsterhanterare att testa bara 
> man kan få multi touch att funka.
> 
> Helst så vill jag ha varianten där man vänder runt skärmen och på så sätt får 
> tablet mode. Men jag kan tänka mig varianten där man dockar en tablet i 
> tangentbordet.
> 
> Vilken är den bästa 2 in 1 laptop (som det verkar kallas) för att köra 
> Debian. Finns det något säkert kort?
> Jag såg ett youtube klipp där någon hade fått i princip allt att funka på en 
> Acer Switch men inte tangentbordet. Man vill ju inte gå på den typ en av nit. 
> Vidare så verkar Lenovo Yoga PRO 3 vara ett ganska säkert kort. Men den är 
> lite för stor för att vara bekväm som tablet i soffan.
> 
> 
> 
> 27 augusti 2015, Sven Arvidsson  skrev:
> > On Thu, 2015-08-27 at 10:03 +0200, Joakim Svensson wrote:
> > > Helt enkelt köpa eller inte köpa?
> > > 
> > Personligen hade jag inte satsat på den. Den har en Mali GPU, så ingen
> > accelererad grafik, det finns inga fria drivrutiner för den.
> > 
> > Rent teoretiskt kanske den skulle gå att fungera i Debian med samma
> > filer som ChromeOS använder, men eftersom drivrutinen är ofri blir du
> > låst till den kernelversion som drivrutinen behöver.
> > 
> > Likadant med multitouch och accelerometer, funkar det i ChromeOS finns
> > det säkert patchar eller firmware, men att få det att funka med Debian
> > kan bli en utmaning.
> > 
> > Den liknande laptopen du länkade till verkade inte vara en höjdare:
> > 
> > * Du måste blacklista drivrutiner för att suspend skall fungera.
> > 
> > * Do not play with ALSA mixer - you may fry your speakers!
> > 
> > * Installationen är långt ifrån smärtfri, du behöver bygga en egen
> > kärna etc.
> > 
> > Det kan säkert vara roligt som projekt, så om du gillar en utmaning kan
> > det gå, men om du är ute efter ett smidigt system att använda och
> > snabbt komma igång med finns det nog bättre alternativ.
> > 
> > -- 
> > Cheers,
> > Sven Arvidsson
> > 
> > PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5
> >
> >
> >

Web Design Guidelines

[Ishita bhalla]

 Hello There,

Blessings For a Beauty Full Day.

This is Ishita, I’m an online marketing executive.

We are an India based IT company. We have a good creative team ready to
design & develop an eye catching website for your business.

We currently have a great offer for complete new state of the art website
for your business at an incredibly competitive price.

Please let me know if you are Interested so that we can provide you more
detail.

Best Regards,
Ishita
Online Marketing Executive

[no subject]

[Ishita bhalla]

 Hello There,

Blessings For a Beauty Full Day.

This is Ishita, I’m an online marketing executive.

We are an India based IT company. We have a good creative team ready to
design & develop an eye catching website for your business.

We currently have a great offer for complete new state of the art website
for your business at an incredibly competitive price.

Please let me know if you are Interested so that we can provide you more
detail.

Best Regards,
Ishita
Online Marketing Executive

EU pályázatai lehetőséget

[Borbenyi Levente]

Tisztelt Hölgyem/Uram,
A nevem Borbényi Levente, a Lacan Technologies Kft-t képviselem.

Ezúton szeretném tájékoztatni, hogy meghirdetésre kerültek az Európai Unio új 
pályázatai, amelyek a mikro-, kis- és középvállalkozások számára biztosítanak 
fejlesztési lehetőséget.

A projekt fő célja a mikro-, kis- és középvállalkozások termelő tevékenységének 
növelése, a hazai ipar, valamint az export fejlesztése, és a gyártás, termelés 
hatékonyságának növelése modern eszközök és géppark, új technológiák és fejlett 
infrastruktúra 
segítségével.

Szeretném meghívni Önt egy megbeszélésre, amely lehetőséget adna az elvárások 
és lehetőségek megbeszélésére, a támogatás elérése érdekében.

Üdvözlettel,
Borbényi Levente

borbenyi.leve...@lacan.hu 
Tel.: 06 30 578 38 25
Tel.: 06 70 504 21 79

Re: usb read only

[Liam O'Toole]

On 2015-08-30, atux  wrote:
> This is a multi-part message in MIME format.
> --010609010802020702010907
> Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8; format=flowed
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit
>
> hello everyone.
>
> i have a usb stick that it gets recognised as read only.
> how do i fix that issue, so i could format it and have a usable usb stick?
> i have tried with dosfsck -a without success
>
> Disk /dev/sdb: 31.4 GB, 31449415680 bytes
> 19 heads, 19 sectors/track, 170151 cylinders, total 61424640 sectors
> Units = sectors of 1 * 512 = 512 bytes
> Sector size (logical/physical): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
> I/O size (minimum/optimal): 512 bytes / 512 bytes
> Disk identifier: 0x10635f1f
>
> Device Boot  Start End  Blocks   Id  System
> /dev/sdb1   *806461424639307082887  HPFS/NTFS/exFAT
> *root@netbook:~#* dosfsck -a /dev/sdb1
> dosfsck 3.0.13, 30 Jun 2012, FAT32, LFN
> open: Read-only file system
> *root@netbook:~#*
>
> even gparted has it recognised as read only

Did you install from a USB stick, by any chance? The installer can leave
a 'ro' entry for the stick in /etc/fstab.

>
> --010609010802020702010907
> Content-Type: text/html; charset=utf-8
> Content-Transfer-Encoding: quoted-printable

[...]

Please post in plain text only.

-- 

Liam

Re: quality keyboards

[Gian Uberto Lauri]

Petter Adsen writes:
 > On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 02:09:23 -0500
 > rlhar...@oplink.net wrote:
 > 
 > > On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
 > > > Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
 > > > keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the Internet 
 > > > is
 > > > full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from several different
 > > > manufacturers) built with those Cherry keyswitches.
 > > 
 > > How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
 > > $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
 > > replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?
 > 
 > I while back I bought a Razer Black Widow mechanical keyboard, and it
 > cost about $100. They claim[1] that the switches will last up to 60
 > million keystrokes, and sell both silent and clicky types. It's a
 > really nicely built keyboard, and IMO good for typing. It also has USB
 > and audio pass-through.

I have a Cherry keyboard under my fingers. After some years of
continuous usage (it's my office keyboard) the original caps lost the
marking and I got the chance to make a custom coloured key-set.

The keyboard is still the most comfortable I ever used.

I'm planning giving Razer a try, I am willing to buy a K95 with all the left
keys - they recall me the old Sun keyboards I used as a student.

The RGB version could let me emulate the colors of my custom keyset
(black fo alphanumeric keys, blue for "shifts", green "non printable",
yellow for cursor movement, gray for function, red for esc and 'system
requests' and orange for insert). But this is just to make a geek happy.

The Cherry microswitches will make your fingers happy!

-- 
Gian
   Friends will be friends
  right to the end!

Re: something at init is taking about 31s to finish

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 12:39:14AM +0200, Sven Hartge wrote:
> bri...@aracnet.com wrote:
> 
> > [6.210098] EXT4-fs (sda7): mounted filesystem with ordered data mode. 
> > Opts: 
> > (null)
> > [   35.827945] r8169 :03:00.0: firmware: failed to load 
> > rtl_nic/rtl8168f-1.fw (-2)
> > [   35.827963] r8169 :03:00.0: Direct firmware load failed with error -2
> > [   35.827965] r8169 :03:00.0: Falling back to user helper
> > [   35.828580] r8169 :03:00.0 eth0: unable to load firmware patch 
> > rtl_nic/rtl8168f-1.fw (-12)
> 
> > so it is the dreaded r8169 firmware crappola.  the system works fine
> > not loading it.  is there any way to tell the module to not even try
> > and load it ?
> 
> "modinfo r8169" tells me: no, there is not.
> 
> Why not just install the package "firmware-realtek" and be done with it?

There might be opinions on that that (GASP!) differ from yours.

> I understand the whole "oh noes, firmware is a binary blob with unknown
> contents [...]

It seems you don't :-)

> By not installing the firmware package, you are just making your life
> harder without gaining anything but a delayed boot.

There sure should be anoher way?

- -- t
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wcQAn2PMMGl94eCBlSCAFDZ3glkKcjeX
=NJwM
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

Re: VLC transcode ne fonctionne pas

[Sébastien NOBILI]

Bonjour,

Merci d'ouvrir un nouveau fil (en cliquant sur « Nouveau message ») plutôt que
de répondre à un fil existant pour une question qui n'a pas de rapport.

Le samedi 29 août 2015 à 22:01, jber...@free.fr a écrit :
> J'obtiens toujours un résultat de 0 octets avec un fichier de départ de 8 Mo.
> Manifestement j'ai un problème de configuration de VLC. J'ai beaucoup testé
> sans rien trouver. Quelqu'un aurait-il une piste ?

Pour ma part, je l'ai déjà fait avec succès en utilisant avconv.

Ces deux lignes permettent de définir les noms de fichier d'entrée et de
sortie :

export INPUT=...
export OUTPUT=...

La conversion proprement dite :

avconv -i $INPUT -vf "transpose=1,format=yuv420p" -metadata:s:v rotate=0 
-codec:v libx264 -codec:a copy $OUTPUT

Sébastien

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[Joel Rees]

On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 1:39 PM, T.J. Duchene  wrote:
>
> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Doug  wrote:
>>
>> That's easy for you to say, since you are obviously a programmer. The rest
>> of us may never have programmed anything, and C just looks like some foreign
>> language --which it is!
>
>
> That's very true, Doug. I have nothing but sympathy for the non-programmer,
> honestly.  You are basically at the mercy of people like myself, and I am
> honestly sorry that that is the case.  I wish it did not require a special
> skill set.  In our defense, however, we have worked long and hard in our
> craft as you have in yours.

Actually, there's a couple or three questions going begging here, that
I'd like to ask:

(1) TJ, have you ever built LFS? Or, even better, built a running OS
on top of the Linux kernel without even the help of the LFS tutorial
and tool set?

(1a) If you have, have you ever implemented your own init system for a
Linux-based OS that you built yourself?

(2) Having done that much, have you ever kept that system maintained
and updated, even at just the level of keeping only the critical
applications patched or updated against vulnerabilities on a timely
basis?

Okay, there's actually one more question here:

(3) Have you ever done the first two while holding down a full-time,
40+ hour a week job that doesn't particularly make allowances for
employees that need to spend the time necessary for maintaining their
OS? If you have, how long did you keep it up without developing
personality issues for lack of sleep, developing dysfunctional
digestion problems like ulcers and diabetes, and/or ending up breaking
up your family?

Answer honestly.

(There is a reason that people get together to make distributions, you know.)

-- 
Joel Rees

Be careful when you look at conspiracy.
Arm yourself with knowledge of yourself, as well:
http://reiisi.blogspot.jp/2011/10/conspiracy-theories.html

Re: Asus C100PA Flip

[joakim]

Tack för svar.

Jag har förstått det att denna kanske inte är bästa alternativet. Men frågan är 
vilken man ska välja?

Jag skulle vilja ha en tablet för surf och liknande samtidigt som jag vill 
kunna göra mer avancerade saker. Jag vill t.ex. kunna installera apache om jag 
vill experimentera lite med java script osv.

Jag vill ha min ipad och laptop i ett.

Att det är bökigt att använda t.ex. gnome med touch gränssnitt löser sig säkert 
med tiden och det finns ju massor med fönsterhanterare att testa bara man kan 
få multi touch att funka.

Helst så vill jag ha varianten där man vänder runt skärmen och på så sätt får 
tablet mode. Men jag kan tänka mig varianten där man dockar en tablet i 
tangentbordet.

Vilken är den bästa 2 in 1 laptop (som det verkar kallas) för att köra Debian. 
Finns det något säkert kort?
Jag såg ett youtube klipp där någon hade fått i princip allt att funka på en 
Acer Switch men inte tangentbordet. Man vill ju inte gå på den typ en av nit. 
Vidare så verkar Lenovo Yoga PRO 3 vara ett ganska säkert kort. Men den är lite 
för stor för att vara bekväm som tablet i soffan.



27 augusti 2015, Sven Arvidsson  skrev:
> On Thu, 2015-08-27 at 10:03 +0200, Joakim Svensson wrote:
> > Helt enkelt köpa eller inte köpa?
> > 
> Personligen hade jag inte satsat på den. Den har en Mali GPU, så ingen
> accelererad grafik, det finns inga fria drivrutiner för den.
> 
> Rent teoretiskt kanske den skulle gå att fungera i Debian med samma
> filer som ChromeOS använder, men eftersom drivrutinen är ofri blir du
> låst till den kernelversion som drivrutinen behöver.
> 
> Likadant med multitouch och accelerometer, funkar det i ChromeOS finns
> det säkert patchar eller firmware, men att få det att funka med Debian
> kan bli en utmaning.
> 
> Den liknande laptopen du länkade till verkade inte vara en höjdare:
> 
> * Du måste blacklista drivrutiner för att suspend skall fungera.
> 
> * Do not play with ALSA mixer - you may fry your speakers!
> 
> * Installationen är långt ifrån smärtfri, du behöver bygga en egen
> kärna etc.
> 
> Det kan säkert vara roligt som projekt, så om du gillar en utmaning kan
> det gå, men om du är ute efter ett smidigt system att använda och
> snabbt komma igång med finns det nog bättre alternativ.
> 
> -- 
> Cheers,
> Sven Arvidsson
> 
> PGP Key ID 6FAB5CD5
> 
> 
>

AW: Wheezy "NFSv4 callback reply buffer overflowed"

[Rainer Stumbaum]

Hello Javier

>>> Did you try disabling nfs.v4.read_delegation?
>>>
>> No, since we only recently changed from NFSv3 to NFSv4 and with v3 were
>> using mount option nocto on 99% of the mounts for performance. We have
>> currently no idea what implications we would have if we turn off read
>> delegation.
>> Is there any way to estimate/measure the performance improvements achieved
>> by using read delegation as in our current setup?
>I have no idea, I'm suggesting such solution because that is the
>response on Redhat customer portal  (I'm not sure what could I post
>from that response, I have a account there))
>(https://access.redhat.com/solutions/728943)

Disabled read delegation on Sunday - had to reenable it now since the NetApp 
NFS server was doing 150% more NFS operations than before and the CPU was going 
over our limits.

So we might just live with that warning then.

Strange though: NFSv4 is now around 12 years old and still not properly 
implemented on the clients as it seems...

Best regards
Rainer

Re: quality keyboards

[Martin Read]

On 31/08/15 08:09, rlhar...@oplink.net wrote:

How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for $10 or
$15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality keyboard, or
replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six months?


Well, I'm typing this on a Das Keyboard (Cherry MX Brown keyswitches), 
which I bought after having to return the genuine IBM keyboard I'd had 
on extremely-long-term loan from a friend, so I think my position on 
that one is pretty clear :)



And in our present Window$-dominated, rodent-oriented, game-addicted and
generally-lliterate society,


Funnily enough, the single biggest market for keyboards with 
high-quality keyswitches today is almost certainly PC video game 
enthusiasts. Video games on the PC make heavy use of the keyboard, and 
having a keyboard with high reliability and good tactile characteristics 
makes it easier to play them well.

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[tomas]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 11:19:12PM +0200, Christian Seiler wrote:

Disclaimer: I totally dislike systemd. I'll try to do what it takes
to enjoy a systemd-free Debian. I'm not going to discuss the whys
and hows -- tne Nets are already full of that. That said...

Thanks, Christian, for your level-headed post. I heartily agree
whith you. Let me especially point out:

> It's really sad to see that so many people assume bad faith on the
> other side of an argument, just because you disagree with them.

Let's get back to work. Those wanting systemd: make the best systemd
ever! Those not wanting it: work hard to make life possible without.

Slinging mud at people never helps: Lennart Poettering isn't out there
"to get us" -- he's writing free software. He deserves to be treated
respectfully just for that. Systemd opponents often have their reasons
for their opposition -- they aren't just "parroting" or "averse to
change". They deserve to have their decision respected too.

Let's get along together, m'kay?

Thanks Christian

- -- t
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Re: something at init is taking about 31s to finish

[Brian]

On Mon 31 Aug 2015 at 11:56:09 +0300, Reco wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 06:58:10AM -0700, bri...@aracnet.com wrote:
> > 
> > there's this in dmesg:
> > 
> > [6.210098] EXT4-fs (sda7): mounted filesystem with ordered data mode. 
> > Opts: 
> > (null)
> > [   35.827945] r8169 :03:00.0: firmware: failed to load 
> > rtl_nic/rtl8168f-1.fw (-2)
> > [   35.827963] r8169 :03:00.0: Direct firmware load failed with error -2
> > [   35.827965] r8169 :03:00.0: Falling back to user helper
> > [   35.828580] r8169 :03:00.0 eth0: unable to load firmware patch 
> > rtl_nic/rtl8168f-1.fw (-12)
> > 
> > so it is the dreaded r8169 firmware crappola.  the system works fine
> > not loading it.
> 
> My-my. Calling perfectly good, working out-of-the box r8169 card like
> that is way too harsh (and violates this list rules btw).  I happen to
> have a similar NIC in one of my PCs, and I can confirm that it works
> flawlessly without any non-free blobs.  I have not tried it with
> systemd, though.

The Installation Guide mentions that some hardware works well without
firmware. It's a matter of trying it and seeing how you go on.

> > is there any way to tell the module to not even try and load it ?
> 
> Why are you so sure that it's the failing firmware loading that adds
> 30 seconds to your boot sequence? According to the dmesg, the whole
> ("I need firmware - oh well, I'll try without it") takes whooping
> 600us.
> 
> Start with something simple. Like replacing dhcp configuration with
> static IP assignment.
> 
> Continue with obligatory "in the case of the doubt fallback to
> sysvinit".
> 
> Finally, dump the network traffic during the boot of the offending
> host (requires and extra host or some trickery, though).

Booting with the firmware loaded should settle the question about the
30 second delay being a caused by its lack.

Re: quality keyboards

[Haines Brown]

Back in the 1990s I purchased several IBM M-5 keyboards for about $5
each. The only one that died was the one I poured alcohol into in order
to clean it out. Perhaps some are still around at a reasonable price.

Re: systemd-logind emitting messages to the terminal upon login

[The Wanderer]

On 2015-08-31 at 20:37, Jonathan de Boyne Pollard wrote:

> The Wanderer:
> 
>> No, but I believe I still have my laptop configured in a way which
>> gets this behavior. If you want, I can reboot it and do a detailed
>> examination; I'm probably about due for a reboot of that laptop,
>> anyway.
> 
> It's mainly the final part about other people's login sessions
> causing messages on unrelated terminals that is perplexing.

Actually, that part is speculative on my part (and I tried to label it
that way, by saying "if I'm interpreting the situation correctly, [this
will probably happen]"); my understanding of the mechanism by which
logind dumps those messages into the console in the first place
indicates that it will dump them into any and every active text console,
so that whoever is logged in gets the notification that a new session
(or maybe that's "seat"? I'm not clear on the official terminology) has
activated.

Part of the "detailed examination" (which I do think I want to do at
some point, regardless) would be to verify, if I can, whether or not
this does happen. If it does not, then that's my bad.

> The only mechanisms that immediately spring to mind for that are ones
> like {r,}syslog configured to take logind messages from the journal
> and write them to the console, splatting over whatever kernel virtual
> terminal happens to be active, which presumably you would have
> already thought of and checked.

I believe that's roughly how it works, yes - and I believe rsyslog is
intentionally set up that way, so that various system messages which
would appear in the active console if the journal were not present will
still appear there. It's just that now there are _more_ messages, which
would not have existed in the absence of
systemd-the-collection-of-binaries-which-orbit-the-PID1-binary. (These
unambiguous names get kind of unwieldy...)

If there's a way to disable doing this for just those messages, without
disabling it for the other messages (which I do want and expect to
appear in the console, at least in some cases), I haven't found it.

-- 
   The Wanderer, hoping he hasn't flubbed something after the long day

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Iceweasel/Firefox Sync

[mudongliang]

On 09/01/2015 06:25 AM, Paul E Condon wrote:
> I am trying to establish a Mozilla-type Sync connection between my
> Debian Jessie (systemd) desktop host and my Apple MacBook Pro. I'm
> finding that password changes are being successfully transmitted from
> Apple to Jessie, but changes on Jessie are not going to Apple.
I used to adjust my bookmarks in kali Linux(based on Debian). I move one
directory to another directory.
For other linux systems ,
ArchLinux which has a latest version of Firefox can sync successfully;
Debian testing which has iceweasel can sync successfully;
But Debian stable not, LMDE(LinuxMint Based on Debian stable) not
neither.
Some are Virtual Machines.
So I think maybe the version of Iceweasel/Firefox is the reason. But
I did not find solutions.

  * jessie (stable) 
(web): Web browser based on Firefox
38.2.1esr-1~deb8u1 [*security*]: amd64 arm64 armel armhf i386 mips
mipsel powerpc ppc64el s390x
  * stretch (testing) 
(web): Web browser based on Firefox
38.2.0esr-1~stretch: amd64 arm64 armel armhf i386 mips mipsel
powerpc ppc64el s390x

from https://packages.debian.org/search?keywords=iceweasel.
   
- mudongliang
> I see a security fix for Iceweasel recently announced for a different
> issue. Would this have a newer version of Sync, or should I look for
> a backport? Or has anyone confronted this problem and found a fix?
> Please help,
> TIA
>



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is google earth safe to install?

[rlharris]

To facilitate our search for property and discussion over the telephone of
various properties, my client wishes me to install google earth.

I see that Debian has a google earth package.

In view of our recent discussion "laptop protection in an office network",
I am curious as to what danger of compromise, if any, is incurred by the
installation of google earth.

RLH

Re: quality keyboards

[Curt]

On 2015-08-31, Haines Brown  wrote:

> Back in the 1990s I purchased several IBM M-5 keyboards for about $5
> each. The only one that died was the one I poured alcohol into in order
> to clean it out. Perhaps some are still around at a reasonable price.
>
>

Well, at least it died drunk so it didn't suffer.

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[The Wanderer]

On 2015-08-31 at 00:39, T.J. Duchene wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Doug 
> wrote:

>> What we would like is stability, and until Poettering started
>> messing with Linux, we pretty much had it--at least in any given
>> distro.
> 
> That's where we part in agreement.  You can't blame Poettering for
> messing with Linux.

We can blame him for his design decisions WRT systemd, the philosophy
behind it, and the attitude with which he pushes it.

systemd's actual functionality, for the most part (various more-or-less
superficial things aside), isn't that bad; a lot of it is actually (at
least potentially) good. It's the compromises in principle that are the
biggest problems, and Lennart simply does not seem to share the
principles which are being compromised.

> The distributor makers looked at systemd and realized that it would
> make things easier for them.  Systemd fills a distributor's need. You
> don't have to like it, but only Debian is responsible for Debian.
> Poettering had no input in that decision, so you should not blame him
> for it.

Debian could not have chosen systemd if Lennart had not written it, and
Debian could not have chosen systemd-in-its-current-form if Lennart had
not designed it in that form, so some layer of the blame does fall on
him.

> Frankly, at no point have I seen Linux become more "unstable"
> because of systemd.  In my experience, Linux as an operating system
> is not horribly stable when you use the bleeding edge releases.  It's
> much better than Windows most of the time, but I would not use even a
> stable Linux in a nuclear reactor.   Linux is not designed for
> extreme stability.

It depends on what kind of stability you're talking about. The init-time
experience with sysvinit and sysvrc has been fairly stable for years, if
not decades; systemd breaks with that stability, in an attempt to
introduce a new paradigm which its developers think is better.


There are plenty of reports of systems which worked just fine with a
given configuration which do not work with that configuration after
being transitioned to systemd; for one easy non-cosmetic example (there
are apparently others), consider the "a failed mount which is not
explicitly marked for failures to be ignored will result in a failed
boot" behavior, which did not occur without systemd but does happen with
systemd.

Yes, you can change your system's configuration to make it work, but in
a stable system you shouldn't have to. (And I'm not talking about
"stable" in the sense of the Debian repository codenames; I'm talking
about 'stable" in the larger sense.)


On a more cosmetic level, without systemd, if you use a "quiet" option
on the kernel command line you will silence kernel output during boot
but not silence service-startup (etc.) option during the later stages of
the bootstrap process - but with systemd, using that option silences
both kernel output _and_ service-startup (etc.) output..

Yes, you can add half-a-dozen-ish systemd-specific options on the kernel
command line to get systemd to display the same combination of output
types as would have happened by default without systemd - but if you
have to change your system configuration in order to get the same
behavior, that system is not behaving in a stable fashion.


Also on a mostly-cosmetic level, if you log in at a text console without
systemd, you will get a certain set of messages, coming mostly from
login and from your shell - but with systemd, logging in at a text
console also produces a mess of extra messages coming from logind, which
are largely irrelevant to whoever just logged in and which step all over
either the original set of messages or the actual shell prompt.

As far as I've been able to determine, there is no way to get logind to
not produce these messages, without also preventing it from producing
messages later - or in background logging - which you might actually
want. And, if I'm interpreting the situation correctly, you will
probably see these messages in your console every time _anyone_ gets a
new "session" on that computer, even if it's not you. This is the
final-straw behavior which led me to reject systemd for my own systems.

(And, no, logind is not systemd-the-PID1-binary - but is part of
systemd-the-collection-of-other-binaries-which-orbit-that-binary, and is
developed by systemd-the-project-which-develops-all-those-binaries. This
is part of the name ambiguity which I was wanting to fix.)


The systemd developers acknowledge the need for some degree of backwards
compatibility, in that they have "support" on some level for
/etc/init.d/ init scripts. However, without _full_ backwards
compatibility on _every_ level - including the cosmetic - being at least
_available for those who want to choose it_ (and preferably being the
default behavior), the behavior seen before a transition to systemd will
be similar enough to the behavior seen after such a transition for the
whole to deserve the 

Re: Authentification dans NTP

[Vincent Lefevre]

On 2015-08-24 12:22:40 +0200, j...@free.fr wrote:
> Il y a une couche d'authentification dans NTP ? 

Oui, à partir de NTPv3:

  http://linux.die.net/man/5/ntp_auth

-- 
Vincent Lefèvre  - Web: 
100% accessible validated (X)HTML - Blog: 
Work: CR INRIA - computer arithmetic / AriC project (LIP, ENS-Lyon)

Re: quality keyboards

[Petter Adsen]

On Mon, 31 Aug 2015 08:25:25 -0400
Gene Heskett  wrote:

> On Monday 31 August 2015 07:04:22 Joel Rees wrote:
> 
> > On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 4:09 PM,   wrote:
> > > On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
> > >> Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
> > >> keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the
> > >> Internet is full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from
> > >> several different manufacturers) built with those Cherry
> > >> keyswitches.
> > >
> > > How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for
> > > $10 or $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality
> > > keyboard, or replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six
> > > months?
> > >
> > > And in our present Window$-dominated, rodent-oriented, game-addicted
> > > and generally-lliterate society, is there anyone who types more than
> > > a few dozen keystrokes a day for the purpose of intelligent
> > > conversation -- other than subscribers to a mail list such as this,
> > > and the authors of pulp fiction?  (And no, I do not consider
> > > messages transmitted by "texting" or "twitter" to be intelligent
> > > conversation.)
> >
> > Petter points out the comfort benefits. For some, however, it's not
> > just comfort.
> 
> Correct.
> 
> There is another aspect of what I call a usable keyboard. My retirement 
> hobbies include cnc'ing the usual machine shop stuff, like mills and 
> lathes.  Thats a "dirty" environment, where a cut chip of metal can fly 
> several feet, depending on method of keeping the cutting tools workspace 
> reasonably clear of these chips, which will adversely effect the smooth 
> surface of the cut if allowed to just lay there and be recut by the 
> passage of the tools next cutting edge.  So keyboards need to be both 
> protected from this debris, but also built to ignore it as much as 
> possible.  The net result is a tendency to, when keyboard shopping, to 
> stay well away from keyboards whose keycaps are molded with tapered 
> sides surrounded by a close fitting plastic molding.  I have an ACER 
> keyboard with vertical sided keys and no surrounding mask, keycaps are 
> directly on the stem of the key that if buried in this "swarf" might not 
> go down and register a keypress because there is something under the 
> keycap.  That would be the much preferable failure mode, whereas the 
> taper sided keycap, with the usual overlay mask, allows this materiel to 
> follow the key down, then wedge it down.

Have you seen the Apple keyboards? They have keys that are barely
raised from the keyboard itself, completely flat, and are AFAIK
wireless. Sandstrøm, among others, makes clones of these that are dirt
cheap. If I understand your problem correctly, they might work well for
you.

Just a thought, I have no idea how they are for actual work.

You can also get keyboards with a plastic coating that are intended for
industrial use, but I haven't seen any for some time.

Petter

-- 
"I'm ionized"
"Are you sure?"
"I'm positive."


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Re: usb read only

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

atux wrote
> > even gparted has it recognised as read only

What exactly did it report ?

What permissions are shown with

  ls -l /dev/sdb


Liam O'Toole wrote:
> The installer can leave a 'ro' entry for the stick in /etc/fstab.

If so, then block device level write operations should
succeed.


Caution:
This test will zeroize partitioning. Do not try if
you still want to read the data from the USB stick.
(Creating the same partition start and size again would
make the filesystem accessible again. It depends on your
skills with the partition editor.)

The following command will write 512 bytes from /dev/null
over the MBR and partition table (where /dev/sdb1
is marked). Afterwards the stick should appear unpartitioned
and partition editors should be willing to work.
If device file permissions are sufficient.

Just make sure that you really address the stick by /dev/sdb,
and not your second hard disk.

  dd if=/dev/null bs=512 count=1 of=/dev/sdb

The dd command is about what is proposed for putting a Debian
ISO onto USB stick:
  https://www.debian.org/CD/faq/#write-usb


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: quality keyboards

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 31 August 2015 07:04:22 Joel Rees wrote:

> On Mon, Aug 31, 2015 at 4:09 PM,   wrote:
> > On Sun, August 30, 2015 8:49 pm, Martin Read wrote:
> >> Cherry still *are* (or at some point resumed) making mechanical
> >> keyswitches with a rated life in the tens of millions, and the
> >> Internet is full of mail-order vendors selling keyboards (from
> >> several different manufacturers) built with those Cherry
> >> keyswitches.
> >
> > How much do those things cost?  Now that a keyboard can be had for
> > $10 or $15, is it better to pay $150 or even $250 for a quality
> > keyboard, or replace a $15 keyboard every year or even every six
> > months?
> >
> > And in our present Window$-dominated, rodent-oriented, game-addicted
> > and generally-lliterate society, is there anyone who types more than
> > a few dozen keystrokes a day for the purpose of intelligent
> > conversation -- other than subscribers to a mail list such as this,
> > and the authors of pulp fiction?  (And no, I do not consider
> > messages transmitted by "texting" or "twitter" to be intelligent
> > conversation.)
>
> Petter points out the comfort benefits. For some, however, it's not
> just comfort.

Correct.

There is another aspect of what I call a usable keyboard. My retirement 
hobbies include cnc'ing the usual machine shop stuff, like mills and 
lathes.  Thats a "dirty" environment, where a cut chip of metal can fly 
several feet, depending on method of keeping the cutting tools workspace 
reasonably clear of these chips, which will adversely effect the smooth 
surface of the cut if allowed to just lay there and be recut by the 
passage of the tools next cutting edge.  So keyboards need to be both 
protected from this debris, but also built to ignore it as much as 
possible.  The net result is a tendency to, when keyboard shopping, to 
stay well away from keyboards whose keycaps are molded with tapered 
sides surrounded by a close fitting plastic molding.  I have an ACER 
keyboard with vertical sided keys and no surrounding mask, keycaps are 
directly on the stem of the key that if buried in this "swarf" might not 
go down and register a keypress because there is something under the 
keycap.  That would be the much preferable failure mode, whereas the 
taper sided keycap, with the usual overlay mask, allows this materiel to 
follow the key down, then wedge it down.

Thats a very bad dog and can cost dearly in broken tooling or machinery.

Unforch, while the ACER is good in that regard, it has about a half a 
dozen multimedia related keys right at the top edge, and there is no way 
to pick it up and take it to the machine as its impossible to pick it up 
without pressing these kays, plus its a corded ps2 board with too short 
a cord.  So at the present time, I have the wireless Logitech K360 on 
all 4 machines. Vertical sided keycaps that don't easily jam, and a 
clear area on the back edge, well centered that can be used to pick it 
up and take it to the machine using its long range wireless.  The layout 
is not ideal by any stretch, but its the most usable keyboard for me.  
And its relatively cheap.  And about 6" narrower than most of 
the "comfort" keyboards, leaving room to keep a rodent handy to its 
right on a 20" wide shelf.

Speaking of rodents, who, in posession of a brain cell, thinks the finger 
keys need to register a house fly landing on them?  I don't own one that 
I haven't had to take apart and add additional springs under the buttons 
so I have to consciously press the button.  Having to consciously hold 
the fingers away from the buttons so an accidental click isn't 
registered is extremely tiring, and half a ball point pen spring in the 
right place makes them a pleasure to use.  Most mice have a handy place 
molded in to put the spring into, so why the heck don't they put it in 
and raise the price a buck?  Boggles my mind.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: Another system management tool to disappear.

[The Wanderer]

On 2015-08-31 at 03:47, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> On Sun, Aug 30, 2015 at 11:19:12PM +0200, Christian Seiler wrote:
> 
> Disclaimer: I totally dislike systemd. I'll try to do what it takes 
> to enjoy a systemd-free Debian. I'm not going to discuss the whys and
> hows -- tne Nets are already full of that. That said...
> 
> Thanks, Christian, for your level-headed post. I heartily agree whith
> you. Let me especially point out:
> 
>> It's really sad to see that so many people assume bad faith on the 
>> other side of an argument, just because you disagree with them.
> 
> Let's get back to work. Those wanting systemd: make the best systemd 
> ever! Those not wanting it: work hard to make life possible without.
> 
> Slinging mud at people never helps: Lennart Poettering isn't out
> there "to get us" -- he's writing free software. He deserves to be
> treated respectfully just for that.

While I understand what you're getting at here, and I believe I agree
with the underlying point, I do not agree with this actual statement.

Some people develop and distribute malware as free software. Do they
deserve to be treated with respect for doing that?

Now, systemd and pulseaudio and the like are not malware - but from some
people's perspectives, much if not all of the software which Lennart
writes and makes available (indeed, actively pushes) is not far short of
being just as undesirable as malware, and it's becoming just as hard to
avoid, albeit for very different reasons.

Also, while I agree that Lennart is not out "to get us" in the sense of
malicious laughter and diabolical plans, he _does_ seem to outright
reject some principles which have been valued in the free-software world
for decades, to want to see those principles crushed to whatever extent
they interfere with his own goals, and to have zero sympathy or respect
in practice for those who do value those principles. The end result may
not be all that different.

If some people decide that writing and pushing software designs which
are actively opposed to their values is not worthy of respect, the fact
that it is free software is not automatically enough to overcome that.

> Systemd opponents often have their reasons for their opposition --
> they aren't just "parroting" or "averse to change". They deserve to
> have their decision respected too.
> 
> Let's get along together, m'kay?

Agreed. For what it's worth, I don't think this particular iteration of
the discussion has gotten nearly as heated or as hostile or as harmful
as many of the previous ones have done.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



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