Re: Markup in mail messages
On Sat, May 18, 2024 at 08:26:55PM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 17/05/2024 18:10, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > > On 17/05/2024 10:16, Karl Vogel wrote:
> > > > https://github.com/aaronsw/html2text/ might interest you. It
> > > > converts
> > > > (relatively) sane HTML into Markdown.
> > > >
> > > > I put html2text.py into $HOME/lib and use this to call it:
> > > >
> > > > #!/bin/sh
> > > > # > > > exec /usr/bin/env python $HOME/lib/html2text.py ${1+"$@"}
> > > > exit 1
> [...]
> > https://mywiki.wooledge.org/WrapperScript
> >
> > Short version: "$@" is good enough if your /bin/sh isn't museum-era.
> > ${1+"$@"} works around a bug in some very old shells.
>
> Thanks. I am unsure if a python2 script from 2011 is consistent with a sh
> expanding "$@" to empty string, but the reason of the construct might be
> just muscle memory or some guide.
It has nothing to do with the program being exec-ed. The bug is in the
old implementations of /bin/sh. If you're on Debian, you don't need to
worry about it. There is *no* version of Debian which has a /bin/sh
which has this bug. Only legacy commercial Unix systems have it.
> P.S.
> Portable shell section in autoconf manual mentions "${1+"$@"}" issues with
> zsh (the script above requires /bin/sh explicitly):
> https://www.gnu.org/savannah-checkouts/gnu/autoconf/manual/autoconf-2.72/autoconf.html#index-_0022_0024_0040_0022
*sigh* zsh
Well, once again, there is no version of Debian that uses zsh as its
/bin/sh, so you should be OK here. But if you really want to use the
case $# workaround, I won't say you're wrong.
Re: Markup in mail messages
On 17/05/2024 18:10, Greg Wooledge wrote:
On 17/05/2024 10:16, Karl Vogel wrote:
https://github.com/aaronsw/html2text/ might interest you. It converts
(relatively) sane HTML into Markdown.
I put html2text.py into $HOME/lib and use this to call it:
#!/bin/sh
#
[...]
https://mywiki.wooledge.org/WrapperScript
Short version: "$@" is good enough if your /bin/sh isn't museum-era.
${1+"$@"} works around a bug in some very old shells.
Thanks. I am unsure if a python2 script from 2011 is consistent with a
sh expanding "$@" to empty string, but the reason of the construct might
be just muscle memory or some guide.
The wiki article considers a symlink that was my original idea. It seems
"exit 1" can not ensure certain exit code even if exec fails (at least
with current versions of dash and bash). In addition I see no value of
/usr/bin/env in shell script. It is appropriate for the python script
shebang "#!/usr/bin/env python" (present since its initial commit).
P.S.
Portable shell section in autoconf manual mentions "${1+"$@"}" issues
with zsh (the script above requires /bin/sh explicitly):
https://www.gnu.org/savannah-checkouts/gnu/autoconf/manual/autoconf-2.72/autoconf.html#index-_0022_0024_0040_0022
Re: Markup in mail messages
On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 03:25:49PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> Actually I've been tempted to teach my mail reader to transform HTML > >> into some lightweight markup (yeah, you need a bit of heuristics for > >> that ;-) -- say Org, but why not its poor sister Markdown. > > Please don't settle for markdown. I would love a org filter! > > org-mode just handles tabular data admirably :) > > Just beware that Org's code is generally written under the implicit > assumption that the Org document is trusted, so if you try to reuse > parts of Org's code to do the rendering be extra mindful of the > potential for security holes. My tip of the hat towards Org was somewhat tongue-in-cheek. The problem I actually see with Org (and with Markdown, to a lesser extent) is that they are pretty ad-hocish and tinker friendly. Which is a *big* plus on the one hand. On the other, though, once you want to formalize the thing (a prerequisite to be able to even start talking about security), a myriad of dialects has evolved. Then you either need a dictatorship (Github aka Microsoft, cf. "github flavoured Markdown") or you have a long and painful process (Org is trying, currently). The upside of Org and Markdown is that you (currently, at least) don't need a special reader to make sense of them. But (that's the fourth or fifth hand?) if you follow the evolution of HTML, back then (TM) you didn't need a special reader either. Looking at the crud generated by e.g. "modern" Microsoft mailers, though... There's room for information technology sociologists here :) Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Markup in mail messages
As for the original question I'd recommend that whom ever is having the issue with the version of Emacs in Debian being out date. I've done a custom compiled gcc-14.1.0 by hand on a fresh install of Debian Bookworm however, I can also understand that concertina people on this mailing list don't have the time. I've also never really used Emacs as I came over to GNU/Linux from the later generations of the 9.x series of Windows in the early to mid 2000;s. On 5/17/24 20:31, Max Nikulin wrote: On 18/05/2024 02:25, Stefan Monnier wrote: Actually I've been tempted to teach my mail reader to transform HTML into some lightweight markup (yeah, you need a bit of heuristics for that ;-) -- say Org, but why not its poor sister Markdown. Please don't settle for markdown. I would love a org filter! org-mode just handles tabular data admirably Just beware that Org's code is generally written under the implicit assumption that the Org document is trusted, so if you try to reuse parts of Org's code to do the rendering be extra mindful of the potential for security holes. Leaving aside that in bookworm emacs has not got an update fixing a serious security issue, do you have an example of HTML to Org converter that may generate unsafe markup? Specifically to tables, I do not like that arbitrary code may be executed in response to TAB or C-c C-c. However I am unsure if formulas may appear in an Org file converted from HTML. emacs-orgmode. Re: [BUG][Security] begin_src :var evaluated before the prompt to confirm execution. Fri, 28 Oct 2022 11:11:18 +0700. https://list.orgmode.org/tjfkp7$ggm$1...@ciao.gmane.io [ This applies to many other ELisp packages, of course; it's not exclusive to Org. ] Yesterday reading bug reports and emacs-devel threads related to emacsclient-mail.desktop, I noticed the following: IMHO we should stop kow-towing to the information security people who make a huge fuss over every single bug, especially bugs like this one which only show up when you specifically try to trigger them.
Re: Markup in mail messages
On 18/05/2024 02:25, Stefan Monnier wrote: Actually I've been tempted to teach my mail reader to transform HTML into some lightweight markup (yeah, you need a bit of heuristics for that ;-) -- say Org, but why not its poor sister Markdown. Please don't settle for markdown. I would love a org filter! org-mode just handles tabular data admirably Just beware that Org's code is generally written under the implicit assumption that the Org document is trusted, so if you try to reuse parts of Org's code to do the rendering be extra mindful of the potential for security holes. Leaving aside that in bookworm emacs has not got an update fixing a serious security issue, do you have an example of HTML to Org converter that may generate unsafe markup? Specifically to tables, I do not like that arbitrary code may be executed in response to TAB or C-c C-c. However I am unsure if formulas may appear in an Org file converted from HTML. emacs-orgmode. Re: [BUG][Security] begin_src :var evaluated before the prompt to confirm execution. Fri, 28 Oct 2022 11:11:18 +0700. https://list.orgmode.org/tjfkp7$ggm$1...@ciao.gmane.io [ This applies to many other ELisp packages, of course; it's not exclusive to Org. ] Yesterday reading bug reports and emacs-devel threads related to emacsclient-mail.desktop, I noticed the following: IMHO we should stop kow-towing to the information security people who make a huge fuss over every single bug, especially bugs like this one which only show up when you specifically try to trigger them.
Re: Markup in mail messages
On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 03:25:49PM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > >> Actually I've been tempted to teach my mail reader to transform HTML > >> into some lightweight markup (yeah, you need a bit of heuristics for > >> that ;-) -- say Org, but why not its poor sister Markdown. > > Please don't settle for markdown. I would love a org filter! > > org-mode just handles tabular data admirably :) > > Just beware that Org's code is generally written under the implicit > assumption that the Org document is trusted, so if you try to reuse > parts of Org's code to do the rendering be extra mindful of the > potential for security holes. > [ This applies to many other ELisp packages, of course; it's not > exclusive to Org. ] > Very true, but most content is unsafe like office (MS and open), PDF any other than PDF-A. And HTML which can include JS. org-mode can execute also other code than lisp, like python, JS, Lua A filter though could be limited to only create safe org markup. -H -- Henning Follmann | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com
Re: Markup in mail messages
>> Actually I've been tempted to teach my mail reader to transform HTML >> into some lightweight markup (yeah, you need a bit of heuristics for >> that ;-) -- say Org, but why not its poor sister Markdown. > Please don't settle for markdown. I would love a org filter! > org-mode just handles tabular data admirably :) Just beware that Org's code is generally written under the implicit assumption that the Org document is trusted, so if you try to reuse parts of Org's code to do the rendering be extra mindful of the potential for security holes. [ This applies to many other ELisp packages, of course; it's not exclusive to Org. ] Stefan
Re: Markup in mail messages
On Fri, May 17, 2024 at 12:43:49PM +0700, Max Nikulin wrote:
> On 17/05/2024 10:16, Karl Vogel wrote:
> >https://github.com/aaronsw/html2text/ might interest you. It converts
> >(relatively) sane HTML into Markdown.
> >
> >I put html2text.py into $HOME/lib and use this to call it:
> >
> > #!/bin/sh
> > # > exec /usr/bin/env python $HOME/lib/html2text.py ${1+"$@"}
> > exit 1
>
> I am puzzled by this wrapper. I expect that "$@" is enough here and namely
> {1+"$@"} is redundant. Am I wrong?
https://mywiki.wooledge.org/WrapperScript
Short version: "$@" is good enough if your /bin/sh isn't museum-era.
${1+"$@"} works around a bug in some very old shells.
Re: mail tags in kmail?
Hans writes: > Dear list, > > does anyone know, where kmail is storing its tags for mails? The tags I mean > are those like "already read". I've never done that but maybe this helps, from https://docs.kde.org/stable5/en/kmail/kmail2/faq.html#transfer-mail-and-settings: 6.10. How do I transfer my mail and settings to another computer (or to another user account on the same machine)? Use Tools -> Import/Export KMail Data... to import and export settings and data. Please see PIM Setting Exporter for details.
Re: Markup in mail messages
On 17/05/2024 10:16, Karl Vogel wrote:
https://github.com/aaronsw/html2text/ might interest you. It converts
(relatively) sane HTML into Markdown.
I put html2text.py into $HOME/lib and use this to call it:
#!/bin/sh
#
I am puzzled by this wrapper. I expect that "$@" is enough here and
namely {1+"$@"} is redundant. Am I wrong?
Another question is what is advantage of a decade old Python-2 script
over the python3-html2text Debian package built (almost certainly) from
its successor:
Re: Markup in mail messages
>> On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 09:48:23AM -0400, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > Actually I've been tempted to teach my mail reader to transform HTML > into some lightweight markup (yeah, you need a bit of heuristics for > that ;-) -- say Org, but why not its poor sister Markdown. https://github.com/aaronsw/html2text/ might interest you. It converts (relatively) sane HTML into Markdown. I put html2text.py into $HOME/lib and use this to call it: #!/bin/sh #
Re: Markup in mail messages
On 16/05/2024 20:47, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: Actually I've been tempted to teach my mail reader to transform HTML into some lightweight markup (yeah, you need a bit of heuristics for that ;-) -- say Org, but why not its poor sister Markdown. I am not familiar with pandoc features enough to reason if it is safe from security point of view. for i in org markdown commonmark gfm ; do printf 'Bold %s' "$i" | pandoc -f html -t "$i" ; done *Bold org* **Bold markdown** **Bold commonmark** **Bold gfm** I believed that some text browser should render HTML well enough to make messages readable in terminal.
mail tags in kmail?
Dear list, does anyone know, where kmail is storing its tags for mails? The tags I mean are those like "already read". Background: When I rsync the folder with my mails, which is here ~/.kde/ share/apps/kmail/mail , to another computer, then all new mails are tagged as "not read" on the target computer in kmail, although they were read on the source computer in kmail. Thus I believe, I did not rsync the tags, and they are stored somwhere else. Does one know where? I hope, it is not in akonadi, as this is to feasable to fiddly for me and implies too great danger to crash the whole thing. Thanks for any answer. Hans
Re: Markup in mail messages
On 2024-05-16, Stefan Monnier wrote: >> When this sort of subject comes up (as it does, every so often), I wonder >> why `text/markdown` isn't offered as a mime type for sending emails. > > FWIW, last time I tried to send `text/(x-)markdown` messages, Attribute quotes accurately. https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines.2C_and_Tips
Re: Markup in mail messages
On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 03:47:48PM +0200, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 09:28:05AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: > > [...] > > > So, yes, I encourage you to send more of those, and if your recipients > > don't like the result, try and get them to complain to their > > MUA's authors (most of those MUAs are of course proprietary and are not > > very ... responsive, but that's all we can do). > > Actually I've been tempted to teach my mail reader to transform HTML > into some lightweight markup (yeah, you need a bit of heuristics for > that ;-) -- say Org, but why not its poor sister Markdown. > > [...] Please don't settle for markdown. I would love a org filter! org-mode just handles tabular data admirably :) -H -- Henning Follmann | hfollm...@itcfollmann.com
Re: Markup in mail messages
On Thu, May 16, 2024 at 09:28:05AM -0400, Stefan Monnier wrote: [...] > So, yes, I encourage you to send more of those, and if your recipients > don't like the result, try and get them to complain to their > MUA's authors (most of those MUAs are of course proprietary and are not > very ... responsive, but that's all we can do). Actually I've been tempted to teach my mail reader to transform HTML into some lightweight markup (yeah, you need a bit of heuristics for that ;-) -- say Org, but why not its poor sister Markdown. > > The stupidest case I bumped into is Github where replying by `plain/text` > email lets you add comments to an issue, but `text/markdown` replies are > simply sent to `/dev/null` even though Markdown is the standard format > they use in the web interface. What'd you expect from Microsoft? -- Excelence!1!! Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Markup in mail messages
> When this sort of subject comes up (as it does, every so often), I wonder > why `text/markdown` isn't offered as a mime type for sending emails. FWIW, last time I tried to send `text/(x-)markdown` messages, I discovered that many "popular" MUAs do not display those at all (they treat them as attachments, for example), contrary to what the RFCs say they SHOULD do. So, yes, I encourage you to send more of those, and if your recipients don't like the result, try and get them to complain to their MUA's authors (most of those MUAs are of course proprietary and are not very ... responsive, but that's all we can do). The stupidest case I bumped into is Github where replying by `plain/text` email lets you add comments to an issue, but `text/markdown` replies are simply sent to `/dev/null` even though Markdown is the standard format they use in the web interface. Stefan
Re: Markup in mail messages
On Wed, 2024-05-15 at 15:57 +0100, Darac Marjal wrote: > On 15/05/2024 03:17, Max Nikulin wrote: > > > On 15/05/2024 02:32, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > > > > On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 08:16:20PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: > > > > > > > Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it. > > > > > > > [...] > > > > > The only sensible interpretation I can > > > come up with for why these asterisks were added is that they're being > > > placed around text that's supposed to be emphasized/italicized. > > > > > > *Bold*, /italics/, and _underlined_ markup is supported by various > > mailers, e.g. Thunderbird and Gnus. Some render superscripts^1 and > > subscripts_2 as well. > > > > Backticks (`echo $PATH`) are more specific to markdown. However > > sometimes I use them not expecting that the message will be rendered as > > markdown. Just to avoid ambiguity where a piece of code starts and ends. > > > > When this sort of subject comes up (as it does, every so often), I > wonder why `text/markdown` isn't offered as a mime type for sending > emails. If you're an MUA and you're going to parse text/plain for > markup, then why not offer text/markdown as the body of the message? I > know that there have been various attempts to bridge the gap between > "text/plain is too basic" and "text/html is too powerful" such as > text/enriched and text/rtf, but Markdown seems to be hitting a sweet > spot of being easy to write and being widely adopted elsewhere. Evolution delivers on a markdown option.\ Cheers!
Re: Markup in mail messages
On 15/05/2024 03:17, Max Nikulin wrote: On 15/05/2024 02:32, Greg Wooledge wrote: On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 08:16:20PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it. [...] The only sensible interpretation I can come up with for why these asterisks were added is that they're being placed around text that's supposed to be emphasized/italicized. *Bold*, /italics/, and _underlined_ markup is supported by various mailers, e.g. Thunderbird and Gnus. Some render superscripts^1 and subscripts_2 as well. Backticks (`echo $PATH`) are more specific to markdown. However sometimes I use them not expecting that the message will be rendered as markdown. Just to avoid ambiguity where a piece of code starts and ends. When this sort of subject comes up (as it does, every so often), I wonder why `text/markdown` isn't offered as a mime type for sending emails. If you're an MUA and you're going to parse text/plain for markup, then why not offer text/markdown as the body of the message? I know that there have been various attempts to bridge the gap between "text/plain is too basic" and "text/html is too powerful" such as text/enriched and text/rtf, but Markdown seems to be hitting a sweet spot of being easy to write and being widely adopted elsewhere. OpenPGP_signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: Markup in mail messages
On 5/14/24 22:17, Max Nikulin wrote: On 15/05/2024 02:32, Greg Wooledge wrote: On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 08:16:20PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it. [...] The only sensible interpretation I can come up with for why these asterisks were added is that they're being placed around text that's supposed to be emphasized/italicized. *Bold*, /italics/, and _underlined_ markup is supported by various mailers, e.g. Thunderbird and Gnus. Some render superscripts^1 and subscripts_2 as well. Backticks (`echo $PATH`) are more specific to markdown. However sometimes I use them not expecting that the message will be rendered as markdown. Just to avoid ambiguity where a piece of code starts and ends. If your mail path is sufficiently modern, you might be able to use Unicode subscripts₁ and superscripts². But, they're kind of a pain to type for >1 character.
Markup in mail messages (was: Re: OT: Top Posting)
On 15/05/2024 02:32, Greg Wooledge wrote: On Tue, May 14, 2024 at 08:16:20PM +0200, Nicolas George wrote: Messages in Markdown in the Windows world? I have never seen it. [...] The only sensible interpretation I can come up with for why these asterisks were added is that they're being placed around text that's supposed to be emphasized/italicized. *Bold*, /italics/, and _underlined_ markup is supported by various mailers, e.g. Thunderbird and Gnus. Some render superscripts^1 and subscripts_2 as well. Backticks (`echo $PATH`) are more specific to markdown. However sometimes I use them not expecting that the message will be rendered as markdown. Just to avoid ambiguity where a piece of code starts and ends.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat 18 Nov 2023 at 08:58:41 (-0800), Peter Ehlert wrote: > thread back from the dead: > first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions > > I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. > Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice. > > My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help > me, Kudos to webmasters dot com > > IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know > who to trust > > I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. > > Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages > on the server? Well, sorting by Date, mutt lists your post at position: 33858 L 231118 Peter Ehlert (1.2K) Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail out of a total of 33910 on the server (in the UK). The posts are also all on this machine here: ~/.cache/mutt/imaps:a...@def.co.uk@GHI.co.uk:993/INBOX$ ls -1 | wc -l 35700 ~/.cache/mutt/imaps:a...@def.co.uk@GHI.co.uk:993/INBOX$ du -sh 630M. ~/.cache/mutt/imaps:a...@def.co.uk@GHI.co.uk:993/INBOX$ (Some posts in my cache are orphaned, for straightforward reasons I won't bother to explain here.) Cheers, David.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Mon, 20 Nov 2023 10:15:56 -0600
Mike McClain wrote:
Hello Mike,
>A second item that's slightly off topic, I've had no luck setting
>up claws-mail to send out through frontier.net and if anyone knows how
>to do that I'd appreciate the claws-mail setup for it.
Without knowing what you've done, or what errors you receive I can only
suggest you start here;
https://help.yahoo.com/kb/frontier/SLN3792.html?guce_referrer=aHR0cHM6Ly9kdWNrZHVja2dvLmNvbS8_referrer_sig=AQAAAG4cywIUVM3DYW6VMJeB1xaQhcvotPg06bOVj7Tb3448LcW98YDlSSI1OkiM4pvd7XeUtYcONDXOfK3QNQo_2RENbJHWxu886aFSXyIIQOiwej-BaH-m5hkpIaUvRM8FMziZ13JvH-SstaPrJrRhlHTSNJCzv_R7CSAdhJOhI-Ql&_guc_consent_skip=1700504498
Specifically the part Verify POP or IMAP settings.
--
Regards _ "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
You can't go in if you don't look right
Outlaw - Chron Gen
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Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Monday 20 November 2023 11:15:56 am Mike McClain wrote: > Seeing several messages complaining about fetching messages from > gmail.com I'd like to point out that gmail can be set to forward all > messages to a gmail account to another account on a different server. That's exactly what I'm doing here... -- Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and ablest -- form of life in this section of space, a critter that can be killed but can't be tamed. --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters" - Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James M Dakin
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Mon, 2023-11-20 at 10:15 -0600, Mike McClain wrote: > Seeing several messages complaining about fetching messages from > gmail.com I'd like to point out that gmail can be set to forward all > messages to a gmail account to another account on a different server. > I saw a message making that point several years ago, I'm sure I've mentioned that here before. I did it in my last job as my employer used Google for mail, so I just forwarded everything to an email account on my email server at home. -- Tixy
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
Seeing several messages complaining about fetching messages from gmail.com I'd like to point out that gmail can be set to forward all messages to a gmail account to another account on a different server. I saw a message making that point several years ago, probably here, and seldom log into gmail but get all messages sent to my gmail accounts by others. A second item that's slightly off topic, I've had no luck setting up claws-mail to send out through frontier.net and if anyone knows how to do that I'd appreciate the claws-mail setup for it. Thanks, Mike -- Telling pious lies to trusting children is a form of abuse, plain and simple. - Daniel Dennett, 2010-01-12
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On 19/11/2023 17:50, Tixy wrote: On Sun, 2023-11-19 at 07:58 -0800, Peter Ehlert wrote: Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages on the server? My question was incomplete. I should have added that I must have local copies of almost everything, for Me to filter an purge. --- > So you folks discussing IMAP made it super clear that POP is my only choice. < --- I don't see why you need POP to filter email. Your email client will almost certainly let you create filters to process and delete emails. E.g. I use IMAP with Evolution mail client and have various filters for spam and kill files. Amongst the many filter options is the ability to pipe new messages to an external program and the perform actions on the result. That's how I implement killfiles for this email list, I have a bash script to match email headers against a kill list and then if my script returns 'true' I have evolution set to delete them. Depending on your IMAP server, you may even be able to use "Sieve" scripts to perform the filtering on the server (i.e. before you even download the messages to a client). Sieve scripts can look at headers and bodies, so you can do simple things like "Messages from my family get moved to the 'Family' folder", "messages with a subject that contains 'debian-user' get moved to the 'debian-user' folder", to more complicated things like "auto reply to subscription-confirmation emails". OpenPGP_signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sun, 2023-11-19 at 07:58 -0800, Peter Ehlert wrote: > > Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave > > messages > > on the server? > My question was incomplete. I should have added that I must have > local > copies of almost everything, for Me to filter an purge. > --- > So you folks discussing IMAP made it super clear that POP is my > only choice. < --- I don't see why you need POP to filter email. Your email client will almost certainly let you create filters to process and delete emails. E.g. I use IMAP with Evolution mail client and have various filters for spam and kill files. Amongst the many filter options is the ability to pipe new messages to an external program and the perform actions on the result. That's how I implement killfiles for this email list, I have a bash script to match email headers against a kill list and then if my script returns 'true' I have evolution set to delete them. -- Tixy
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On 11/18/23 08:58, Peter Ehlert wrote: thread back from the dead: first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice. My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help me, Kudos to webmasters dot com the Kudos was premature. they provided unclear/wrong instructions. I said screw it and did "the wrong thing" and expected to loose the copious pent-up messages, but it Did Work. I'm good. IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know who to trust I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages on the server? My question was incomplete. I should have added that I must have local copies of almost everything, for Me to filter an purge. --- > So you folks discussing IMAP made it super clear that POP is my only choice. < --- thanks! On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote: I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI has been slowly been changed. lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My Way. Minor success. Tbird still sucks in several ways. However the many alternatives suck worse in my opinion. Old dogs and all of that. also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and easy backups. In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few filters and rearrange my copious folders. Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail? the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but I know little of the history and stability. secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters? thanks in advance.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
pardon the top posting. I made a minor change to the security settings that Webmasters omitted (or said Not to do) in their documentation for the security upgrades on their servers, and it's working again. a couple thousand messages to clean and sort, but my will filters do 97% of that. I will message their support and help them correct their error. thanks for listening. Peter Ehlert On 11/18/23 09:06, peter ehlert wrote: damn! I forgot... not able to receive on my POP mail accounts! now using the hateful Gmail... maybe that's why Thunderbird can't use a mailing list, they don't trust their own email app. Eff Them! On 11/18/23 08:58, Peter Ehlert wrote: thread back from the dead: first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice. My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help me, Kudos to webmasters dot com IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know who to trust I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages on the server? On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote: I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI has been slowly been changed. lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My Way. Minor success. also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and easy backups. In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few filters and rearrange my copious folders. Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail? the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but I know little of the history and stability. secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters? thanks in advance.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sun, 19 Nov 2023 11:57:03 +
Joe wrote:
Hello Joe,
>On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 19:31:31 +
>Brad Rogers wrote:
>> Can be altered in Prefs.
>> Display; Summaries Message list tab "Mark message as read" section.
>Thank you. I never told it to do that.
I think (but don't quote me) it's the default in CM. And with the large
number of settings, it's easy to miss it.
Took me a while to find the right section before responding to to your
post:
I *know* it's there somewhere.. :-l
--
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/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Does she always shout at you, does she tell you what to do
Family Life - Sham 69
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Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 19:20:49 +
Joe wrote:
Hello Joe,
>currently, selecting an email in the list marks it as read, which is not
Can be altered in Prefs.
Display; Summaries Message list tab "Mark message as read" section.
--
Regards _ "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
I can't do a thing 'cause I can't relax
Independence Day - Comsat Angels
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Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sun 19 Nov 2023 at 04:29:57 (+), Tim Woodall wrote: > On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, Joe wrote: > > > If this area is likely to be the issue, try telnet to the IMAP server > > using port 143, you should get back a list of capabilities which may > > help. Oddly, though I'm using port 993 to my local server, it does not > > return any information from that port, only on 143. Presumably this is > > to assist security. > > I'd assume you need to use something like openssl s_client rather than > telnet to port 993. Sure, but you still need to know what to type (assuming that's what you do), because it just sits there rather than blurting it all out: $ openssl s_client -starttls imap -crlf -connect lionunicorn.co.uk:993 CONNECTED(0003) and nothing happens until: ^C 130 $ OTOH, openssl to port 143 is a bit more informative. Cheers, David.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023, Joe wrote: If this area is likely to be the issue, try telnet to the IMAP server using port 143, you should get back a list of capabilities which may help. Oddly, though I'm using port 993 to my local server, it does not return any information from that port, only on 143. Presumably this is to assist security. I'd assume you need to use something like openssl s_client rather than telnet to port 993.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On 19/11/23 08:04, jeremy ardley wrote: On 19/11/23 01:59, Alex wrote: IMAP clients will therefore keep messages on the IMAP server and not delete them unless you specifically tell them to, for example via right-click -> delete. A client can also alter messages retained on a server or event insert new messages. This is interesting in computer forensics. It means that if an email is on a server e.g. hotmail or gmail, it has no probative value unless supported by other evidence such as server records, digital signatures, or corroborating evidence on other systems. In my professional cyber-forensic practice I have tested just how much you can alter in an email on a server. The answer is essentially everything. All headers, dates, content etc. Server records of email receipt are usually transient so after a few months they can no longer be used as corroboration. Incidentally, I am using gmail for this list. They have made a recent(?) change so that an email that is sent to the debian list automatically gets a 'copy' in the inbox. In fact it's just a view of the sent email. They then drop any copy received from the list, probably based on matching the email ID field (?) From a forensic perspective, gmail only ever stores one copy of an email based on its email ID. The altering emails on the server trick involves creating a modified copy with a different ID field, deleting the original email and so removing its ID from gmail, then altering the ID of the copy to the original ID.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On 19/11/23 01:59, Alex wrote: IMAP clients will therefore keep messages on the IMAP server and not delete them unless you specifically tell them to, for example via right-click -> delete. A client can also alter messages retained on a server or event insert new messages. This is interesting in computer forensics. It means that if an email is on a server e.g. hotmail or gmail, it has no probative value unless supported by other evidence such as server records, digital signatures, or corroborating evidence on other systems. In my professional cyber-forensic practice I have tested just how much you can alter in an email on a server. The answer is essentially everything. All headers, dates, content etc. Server records of email receipt are usually transient so after a few months they can no longer be used as corroboration.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 19:20:49 + Joe wrote: > Claws cannot compose HTML emails, which may be a showstopper for you. > It can display HTML, though I always use plain text. If I really need > to see HTML, such as when an unsubscribe link is buried in 100K of > useless markup, I use a webmail client. I hate webmail. Instead of the webmail client: To the right of the message body, or just above it, you can see the various parts of a MIME message. Right click (mouse 3, typically) on the entry for the HTML part of the email. Click on "display as text". That usually displays the link correctly. -- Does anybody read signatures any more? https://charlescurley.com https://charlescurley.com/blog/
Re: Fetching local mail
On Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 03:58:20PM -0500, Pocket wrote: > Will this work? > > symlink /var/mail/paulf to /home/paulf/Mail/in > > ln -vs /home/paulf/Mail/in /var/mail/paulf I wouldn't expect it to work. Most programs that try to deliver to an mbox file like /var/mail/username will try to "dot-lock" it (by creating another file next to it with a .lock extension, and using that as a sort of semaphor), and that isn't likely to work across file systems. There may also be security measures in place (AppArmor and so on) which restrain the reach of a mail delivery agent to specific directories. Symlinks tend to interact poorly with such things. You're much better off configuring a ~/.forward file if you're running an MTA which honors that.
Re: Fetching local mail
On 11/18/23 07:44, Paul M Foster wrote: Folks: After using claws-mail for a number of years, I'm testing the idea of going back to mutt and fetchmail. One problem I've encountered is how to get local mail in /var/mail/paulf into mutt's inbox at /home/paulf/Mail/in. I could run a POP server, and have fetchmail query it like any other smarthost, but I'd rather not add another daemon. Does anyone know a way to have mutt and/or fetchmail grab mail from /var/mail/paulf to /home/paulf/Mail/in? Paul Will this work? symlink /var/mail/paulf to /home/paulf/Mail/in ln -vs /home/paulf/Mail/in /var/mail/paulf -- It's not easy to be me
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:58:41 -0800 Peter Ehlert wrote: > thread back from the dead: > first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions > > I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. > Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will > suffice. > > My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help > me, Kudos to webmasters dot com > > IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't > know who to trust > > I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. > > Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave > messages on the server? Yes, IMAP is server-oriented, POP3 is single-client oriented. It's not unusual for me to have my IMAP account open in more than one client simultaneously. If you're having problems, it may be to do with the email policy in use at the server, mostly password authentication. Standard IMAP port is 143, encrypted is 993 though often 143 will also accept encryption. If this area is likely to be the issue, try telnet to the IMAP server using port 143, you should get back a list of capabilities which may help. Oddly, though I'm using port 993 to my local server, it does not return any information from that port, only on 143. Presumably this is to assist security. $ telnet myserver 143 Trying 192.168.xx.yy Connected to myserver. Escape character is '^]'. * OK [CAPABILITY IMAP4rev1 LITERAL+ SASL-IR LOGIN-REFERRALS ID ENABLE IDLE STARTTLS AUTH=PLAIN] Dovecot ready. Any mention of SSL, TLS or AUTH is likely to be important. > > On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote: > > > > > > I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the > > GUI has been slowly been changed. > > lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My > > Way. Minor success. > > > > also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and > > easy backups. > > > > In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few > > filters and rearrange my copious folders. > > > > Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail? > > the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but > > I know little of the history and stability. It goes back a couple of decades, and was originally a fork of Sylpheed, which also still exists. I've used it for at least five years, when I started to find TB too bloated and slow. I never used its calendar, I have an SQL-based calendar. Claws gets occasional bugs, irritating rather than serious e.g. currently, selecting an email in the list marks it as read, which is not always what I want, and is not normal behaviour. IMAP does folders, something that POP3 clients simulate but which really exist on an IMAP server, and I often want to drag an email to a folder while leaving it marked unread. It will get fixed. > > > > secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters? No, I'm using quite a lot of filters on two Usenet groups in mine. Claws cannot compose HTML emails, which may be a showstopper for you. It can display HTML, though I always use plain text. If I really need to see HTML, such as when an unsubscribe link is buried in 100K of useless markup, I use a webmail client. I hate webmail. -- Joe
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
On Sat, 18 Nov 2023 08:58:41 -0800 Peter Ehlert wrote: > Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave > messages on the server? That's why IMAP exists to begin with. IMAP was made to make it possible for multiple clients to manage the same mailbox[1]. IMAP clients will therefore keep messages on the IMAP server and not delete them unless you specifically tell them to, for example via right-click -> delete. [1]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IMAP -- Current PGP KeyID: 0AFB427F1800FD89751C4035292228735AE707FF https://blueselene.com/pgp-archive/0AFB427F1800FD89751C4035292228735AE707FF/key.pub pgptlvRoDcw38.pgp Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
damn! I forgot... not able to receive on my POP mail accounts! now using the hateful Gmail... maybe that's why Thunderbird can't use a mailing list, they don't trust their own email app. Eff Them! On 11/18/23 08:58, Peter Ehlert wrote: thread back from the dead: first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice. My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help me, Kudos to webmasters dot com IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know who to trust I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages on the server? On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote: I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI has been slowly been changed. lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My Way. Minor success. also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and easy backups. In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few filters and rearrange my copious folders. Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail? the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but I know little of the history and stability. secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters? thanks in advance.
Re: IMAP vs POP was Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
thread back from the dead: first, thanks for all of the input and wise suggestions I am going crazy with Thunderbird, and Claws too. Now Claws has a calendar add-on, did not try it but maybe it will suffice. My longtime web and email host support have been struggling to help me, Kudos to webmasters dot com IMP vs POP ...the "web" seems to reverse the definitions! I don't know who to trust I really want to keep messages on their server, space is Not an issue. Question: with IMAP is it feasible for a mail client to Leave messages on the server? On 8/15/23 09:43, Peter Ehlert wrote: I am a long time user of Thunderbird. No real complaints, but the GUI has been slowly been changed. lately I have been struggling with that, trying to get it to be My Way. Minor success. also the .msf files have gotten Huge and that hinders rapid and easy backups. In the process I would like to do some housekeeping, fix a few filters and rearrange my copious folders. Question: do you folks recommend migrating to Claws Mail? the initial look and feel seems to be familiar and comfortable, but I know little of the history and stability. secondly, will I be missing the basic features such as Filters? thanks in advance.
Re: Fetching local mail
Paul M Foster wrote: > Also worth noting that I have exim installed, which handles the cron job > emails, and puts them, by default into the standard location, > /var/mail/paulf. Missed this. You can either have exim hand off to maildrop, or deliver where you want via a .forward file in your $HOME: https://www.exim.org/exim-html-current/doc/html/spec_html/filter_ch-forwarding_and_filtering_in_exim.html and https://www.exim.org/exim-html-current/doc/html/spec_html/filter_ch-exim_filter_files.html -dsr-
Re: Fetching local mail
Paul M Foster wrote: > On Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 09:29:02AM -0500, Dan Ritter wrote: > > > Paul M Foster wrote: > > > After using claws-mail for a number of years, I'm testing the idea of > > > going > > > back to mutt and fetchmail. One problem I've encountered is how to get > > > local mail in /var/mail/paulf into mutt's inbox at /home/paulf/Mail/in. > > > > > > I could run a POP server, and have fetchmail query it like any other > > > smarthost, but I'd rather not add another daemon. Does anyone know a way > > > to > > > have mutt and/or fetchmail grab mail from /var/mail/paulf to > > > /home/paulf/Mail/in? > > > > Options: > > > > 1. tell mutt your spool is /var/mail/paulf: > > > > set spoolfile="/var/mail/paulf" > > This would be okay if all my mail was delivered to that spool file, but it > isn't. Fetchmail hands off (internet) mail to maildrop, which puts in my > spool file at /home/paulf/Mail/in. That's where mutt thinks my spool file > is. Only mail generated by the system or cron jobs is delivered to > /var/mail/paulf. And I'd like that mail to end up instead in > /home/paulf/Mail/in. That's easy, then. Have your system mail handled by maildrop as well. Your system is most likely running exim or postfix; either one can invoke maildrop as a local delivery agent, which will then read your .mailfilter and obey it. -dsr-
Re: Fetching local mail
Am Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 10:15:42AM -0500 schrieb Paul M Foster: > On Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 09:29:02AM -0500, Dan Ritter wrote: > > > Paul M Foster wrote: > > > After using claws-mail for a number of years, I'm testing the idea of > > > going > > > back to mutt and fetchmail. One problem I've encountered is how to get > > > local mail in /var/mail/paulf into mutt's inbox at /home/paulf/Mail/in. > > > > > > I could run a POP server, and have fetchmail query it like any other > > > smarthost, but I'd rather not add another daemon. Does anyone know a way > > > to > > > have mutt and/or fetchmail grab mail from /var/mail/paulf to > > > /home/paulf/Mail/in? > > > > Options: > > > > 1. tell mutt your spool is /var/mail/paulf: > > > > set spoolfile="/var/mail/paulf" > > This would be okay if all my mail was delivered to that spool file, but it > isn't. Fetchmail hands off (internet) mail to maildrop, which puts in my > spool file at /home/paulf/Mail/in. That's where mutt thinks my spool file > is. Only mail generated by the system or cron jobs is delivered to > /var/mail/paulf. And I'd like that mail to end up instead in > /home/paulf/Mail/in. > > Also worth noting that I have exim installed, which handles the cron job > emails, and puts them, by default into the standard location, > /var/mail/paulf. > > > > > (if that's a Maildir, end it with a /) > > > > 2. tell fetchmail to deliver via a local agent that will put > > things where you want them, like procmail or mailfilter or... > > anyway, use the 'mda' config in fetchmail's config file to > > specify that. > > > > Fetchmail already hands off to maildrop, which puts all (internet) mail in > /home/paulf/Mail/in. But it appears that fetchmail only queries servers, > and then passes off the mail to an mda. I can't get it to simply copy mail > (and delete it) from a spool file and deliver it to the mda. If you configure fetchmail not to use an MDA as maildrop, fetchmail will deliver incomming mails to exim. May be this is an option. Kind regards, Christoph -- Ist die Katze gesund schmeckt sie dem Hund. signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: Fetching local mail
On Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 10:15:42AM -0500, Paul M Foster wrote: > This would be okay if all my mail was delivered to that spool file, but it > isn't. Fetchmail hands off (internet) mail to maildrop, which puts in my > spool file at /home/paulf/Mail/in. That's where mutt thinks my spool file > is. Only mail generated by the system or cron jobs is delivered to > /var/mail/paulf. And I'd like that mail to end up instead in > /home/paulf/Mail/in. Then it depends on what program is doing the local delivery. If it's some member of the sendmail family (including exim??) then you might be able to configure it by creating a ~/.forward file. I don't know maildrop. You'll have to read its docs to see how to control it.
Re: Fetching local mail
On Sat, Nov 18, 2023 at 09:29:02AM -0500, Dan Ritter wrote: > Paul M Foster wrote: > > After using claws-mail for a number of years, I'm testing the idea of going > > back to mutt and fetchmail. One problem I've encountered is how to get > > local mail in /var/mail/paulf into mutt's inbox at /home/paulf/Mail/in. > > > > I could run a POP server, and have fetchmail query it like any other > > smarthost, but I'd rather not add another daemon. Does anyone know a way to > > have mutt and/or fetchmail grab mail from /var/mail/paulf to > > /home/paulf/Mail/in? > > Options: > > 1. tell mutt your spool is /var/mail/paulf: > > set spoolfile="/var/mail/paulf" This would be okay if all my mail was delivered to that spool file, but it isn't. Fetchmail hands off (internet) mail to maildrop, which puts in my spool file at /home/paulf/Mail/in. That's where mutt thinks my spool file is. Only mail generated by the system or cron jobs is delivered to /var/mail/paulf. And I'd like that mail to end up instead in /home/paulf/Mail/in. Also worth noting that I have exim installed, which handles the cron job emails, and puts them, by default into the standard location, /var/mail/paulf. > > (if that's a Maildir, end it with a /) > > 2. tell fetchmail to deliver via a local agent that will put > things where you want them, like procmail or mailfilter or... > anyway, use the 'mda' config in fetchmail's config file to > specify that. > Fetchmail already hands off to maildrop, which puts all (internet) mail in /home/paulf/Mail/in. But it appears that fetchmail only queries servers, and then passes off the mail to an mda. I can't get it to simply copy mail (and delete it) from a spool file and deliver it to the mda. Paul -- Paul M. Foster Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster
Re: Fetching local mail
Paul M Foster wrote: > After using claws-mail for a number of years, I'm testing the idea of going > back to mutt and fetchmail. One problem I've encountered is how to get > local mail in /var/mail/paulf into mutt's inbox at /home/paulf/Mail/in. > > I could run a POP server, and have fetchmail query it like any other > smarthost, but I'd rather not add another daemon. Does anyone know a way to > have mutt and/or fetchmail grab mail from /var/mail/paulf to > /home/paulf/Mail/in? Options: 1. tell mutt your spool is /var/mail/paulf: set spoolfile="/var/mail/paulf" (if that's a Maildir, end it with a /) 2. tell fetchmail to deliver via a local agent that will put things where you want them, like procmail or mailfilter or... anyway, use the 'mda' config in fetchmail's config file to specify that. -dsr-
Fetching local mail
Folks: After using claws-mail for a number of years, I'm testing the idea of going back to mutt and fetchmail. One problem I've encountered is how to get local mail in /var/mail/paulf into mutt's inbox at /home/paulf/Mail/in. I could run a POP server, and have fetchmail query it like any other smarthost, but I'd rather not add another daemon. Does anyone know a way to have mutt and/or fetchmail grab mail from /var/mail/paulf to /home/paulf/Mail/in? Paul -- Paul M. Foster Personal Blog: http://noferblatz.com Company Site: http://quillandmouse.com Software Projects: https://gitlab.com/paulmfoster
Re: claws-mail
On 2023-11-13, Andreas Ronnquist wrote: > > I believe gmail _requires_ OAUTH2 authorisation for "non-secure apps" > nowadays - which is pretty much all apps except gmails own. AFAIK, gmail still supports application-specific passwords.
Re: claws-mail
On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 04:39:02 + (UTC), mike.junk...@att.net wrote: >I'm running bookworm on a Raspberry Pi 4b. >mike@rpi4b3:~> uname -a >Linux MikesPI 6.1.0-rpi4-rpi-v8 #1 SMP PREEMPT Debian 1:6.1.54-1+rpt2 >(2023-10-05) aarch64 GNU/Linux >This install didn't include exim4, postfix or anything supplying sendmail > and fetchmail won't work without an MTA. >I've set up several accounts in claws-mail for email accounts at att.net > and gmail.com but so far haven't got them right to the point that claws-mail > will collect mail from any of those accounts via POP mail. >I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to get claws-mail working, so far > the only suggestions I've gotten from the Raspberry Pi forum is to switch to > thunderbird. >I don't understand how either will handle local email like comes from cron > or other system programs and I depend on several scripts to do daily checks > on the system which cron emails me about on my buster system which has exim4, > fetchmail and mutt installed. Obviously I can install those here too but > suspect if I get this system set up correctly it should perform similarly. > >Any advice appreciated. > >Thanks, >Mike > I believe gmail _requires_ OAUTH2 authorisation for "non-secure apps" nowadays - which is pretty much all apps except gmails own. See https://www.claws-mail.org/faq/index.php/Oauth2 for how to set it up (It's a bit complicated) - I have stopped using gmail with claws-mail, and don't use gmail very much. (They do a very bad job at following mail standards, which your problem is a good example of). My suggestion is to use another mail provider if possible. best -- Andreas Rönnquist mailingli...@gusnan.se andr...@ronnquist.net
Re: claws-mail
Jeff, Karen picking up the spool of this thread for a moment. Can you share more on this claws email mailing list? I suspect, but may be wrong, that the posters point is that comparative factors impact preference. support indeed, organizational preference, if one is comfortable with imap etc. Kare returning the thread spool to you. On Mon, 13 Nov 2023, Jeffrey Walton wrote: On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 6:59 AM Brad Rogers wrote: On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 05:22:13 -0500 Jeffrey Walton wrote: Hello Jeffrey, I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws. It makes no difference. To whom? The OP's problem, or hypothetically? Many people prefer IMAP, certainly. Equally, there are those that prefer POP3 - myself among them. Of course, with google, it's largely academic; They keep them all, anyway. It might be a good idea to join the Claws-Mail mailing list. I think you will find there is a difference in the level of support for POP3 and IMAP. There are usually several messages a month about the differences. Jeff
Re: claws-mail
On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 07:09:55 -0500
Jeffrey Walton wrote:
Hello Jeffrey,
>> >I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws.
>> It makes no difference.
>To whom? The OP's problem, or hypothetically?
Sorry, I was not explicit; No difference to CM. POP3 and IMAP (etc,
etc.) are protocols CM handles well. It also makes no difference to OP,
personal preference aside, of course.
>It might be a good idea to join the Claws-Mail mailing list. I think
Already on it. Although I rarely post there these days. Never when it
comes to setting up google; I've never done it, so have no advice to
offer. Other than 'Don't' :-)
And you're right, there are often messages about setting CM up. Most
often with google. Those people usually expect things to 'just work'
and can get overwhelmed by CMs options.
Additionally, google don't make it easy to use software they don't
approve of (read: isn't theirs).
--
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/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
People stare like they've seen a ghost
Titanic (My Over) Reaction - 999
pgp_2I6sODVKd.pgp
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Re: claws-mail
Am 13.11.2023 um 07:09:55 Uhr schrieb Jeffrey Walton: > It might be a good idea to join the Claws-Mail mailing list. I think > you will find there is a difference in the level of support for POP3 > and IMAP. There are usually several messages a month about the > differences. Can you please tell us more about that? IIRC both protocols are supported and thus they are different protocols with different specification, they behave different.
Re: claws-mail
On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 6:59 AM Brad Rogers wrote: > > On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 05:22:13 -0500 > Jeffrey Walton wrote: > > Hello Jeffrey, > > >I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws. > > It makes no difference. To whom? The OP's problem, or hypothetically? > Many people prefer IMAP, certainly. Equally, there are those that > prefer POP3 - myself among them. Of course, with google, it's largely > academic; They keep them all, anyway. It might be a good idea to join the Claws-Mail mailing list. I think you will find there is a difference in the level of support for POP3 and IMAP. There are usually several messages a month about the differences. Jeff
Re: claws-mail
On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 05:22:13 -0500
Jeffrey Walton wrote:
Hello Jeffrey,
>I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws.
It makes no difference.
Many people prefer IMAP, certainly. Equally, there are those that
prefer POP3 - myself among them. Of course, with google, it's largely
academic; They keep them all, anyway.
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/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
You destroyed my confidence, you broke my nerve
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pgp8eqz09FY6g.pgp
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Re: claws-mail
On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 05:22:13 -0500 Jeffrey Walton wrote: > On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 4:42 AM wrote: > > > > I'm running bookworm on a Raspberry Pi 4b. > > mike@rpi4b3:~> uname -a > > Linux MikesPI 6.1.0-rpi4-rpi-v8 #1 SMP PREEMPT Debian > > 1:6.1.54-1+rpt2 (2023-10-05) aarch64 GNU/Linux This install didn't > > include exim4, postfix or anything supplying sendmail and fetchmail > > won't work without an MTA. I've set up several accounts in > > claws-mail for email accounts at att.net and gmail.com but so far > > haven't got them right to the point that claws-mail will collect > > mail from any of those accounts via POP mail. I'd appreciate any > > suggestions on how to get claws-mail working, so far the only > > suggestions I've gotten from the Raspberry Pi forum is to switch to > > thunderbird. I don't understand how either will handle local email > > like comes from cron or other system programs and I depend on > > several scripts to do daily checks on the system which cron emails > > me about on my buster system which has exim4, fetchmail and mutt > > installed. Obviously I can install those here too but suspect if I > > get this system set up correctly it should perform similarly. > > > > Any advice appreciated. > > I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws. > > Also see the CM wiki, and articles like > <https://www.claws-mail.org/faq/index.php/Using_Claws_Mail_with_Gmail>. > I use Claws, but from a local network IMAP server, using a network MTA. I wouldn't have thought POP should behave very differently. Claws with external accounts shouldn't need a local MTA, the SMTP server you have configured for the account is the MTA, which Claws will talk to directly. I think you must have a local MTA for some system emails to work, but there are very much simpler ones than exim4 to do that job. Someone else can probably help here, as I have exim4 on all my Linux machines. Thunderbird is a respectable email client but I find it very slow on normal PCs, and it will be glacial on a Pi, even a 4. Whatever the issue is which is stopping Claws may also affect TB. You got the TB advice because it's what most people are familiar with, not because it's any better for email than Claws. Having said that, TB has connection parameters built in for the big, well-known email providers such as Gmail and MS. Something that is sometimes difficult in these encrypted days is getting the right combination of ports and password protocols. The old unencrypted connection to port 110 for POP3 probably doesn't work anywhere now. -- Joe
Re: claws-mail
On Mon, Nov 13, 2023 at 4:42 AM wrote: > > I'm running bookworm on a Raspberry Pi 4b. > mike@rpi4b3:~> uname -a > Linux MikesPI 6.1.0-rpi4-rpi-v8 #1 SMP PREEMPT Debian 1:6.1.54-1+rpt2 > (2023-10-05) aarch64 GNU/Linux > This install didn't include exim4, postfix or anything supplying sendmail > and fetchmail won't work without an MTA. > I've set up several accounts in claws-mail for email accounts at att.net > and gmail.com but so far haven't got them right to the point that claws-mail > will collect mail from any of those accounts via POP mail. > I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to get claws-mail working, so far > the only suggestions I've gotten from the Raspberry Pi forum is to switch to > thunderbird. > I don't understand how either will handle local email like comes from > cron or other system programs and I depend on several scripts to do daily > checks on the system which cron emails me about on my buster system which has > exim4, fetchmail and mutt installed. Obviously I can install those here too > but suspect if I get this system set up correctly it should perform similarly. > > Any advice appreciated. I seem to recall IMAP is a better choice than POP when using Claws. Also see the CM wiki, and articles like <https://www.claws-mail.org/faq/index.php/Using_Claws_Mail_with_Gmail>. Jeff
Re: claws-mail
Am 13.11.2023 um 04:39:02 Uhr schrieb mike.junk...@att.net: > Linux MikesPI 6.1.0-rpi4-rpi-v8 #1 SMP PREEMPT Debian 1:6.1.54-1+rpt2 > (2023-10-05) aarch64 GNU/Linux This install didn't include exim4, > postfix or anything supplying sendmail and fetchmail won't work > without an MTA. I've set up several accounts in claws-mail for email > accounts at att.net and gmail.com but so far haven't got them right > to the point that claws-mail will collect mail from any of those > accounts via POP mail. Claws mail directly supports IMAP, POP3, SMTP and NNTP without an MTA or fetchmail installed. You also don't need sendmail nor the sendmail command to send mail via SMTP with Claws Mail.
Re: claws-mail
On Mon, 13 Nov 2023 04:39:02 + (UTC)
mike.junk...@att.net wrote:
Hello mike.junk...@att.net,
>I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to get claws-mail working
Head over to https://lists.claws-mail.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/users
Maybe even subscribe to their list. Expect to have to give people some
useful information, like what error messages you receive and what version
of CM you're using. The latter makes a difference, *especially* with
google because older versions won't do Oauth2.
Expect to have to do some work in CM and at google's site to enable
successful mail transfers to take place. Other providers should be
easier to set up.
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/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
Gary don't need his eyes to see, Gary and his eyes have parted company
Gary Gilmore's Eyes - The Adverts
pgpmIzDTBmcWe.pgp
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claws-mail
I'm running bookworm on a Raspberry Pi 4b. mike@rpi4b3:~> uname -a Linux MikesPI 6.1.0-rpi4-rpi-v8 #1 SMP PREEMPT Debian 1:6.1.54-1+rpt2 (2023-10-05) aarch64 GNU/Linux This install didn't include exim4, postfix or anything supplying sendmail and fetchmail won't work without an MTA. I've set up several accounts in claws-mail for email accounts at att.net and gmail.com but so far haven't got them right to the point that claws-mail will collect mail from any of those accounts via POP mail. I'd appreciate any suggestions on how to get claws-mail working, so far the only suggestions I've gotten from the Raspberry Pi forum is to switch to thunderbird. I don't understand how either will handle local email like comes from cron or other system programs and I depend on several scripts to do daily checks on the system which cron emails me about on my buster system which has exim4, fetchmail and mutt installed. Obviously I can install those here too but suspect if I get this system set up correctly it should perform similarly. Any advice appreciated. Thanks, Mike
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Sat 11 Nov 2023, at 20:56, Thomas Schmitt wrote: On Sat 11 Nov 2023, at 20:23, Greg Wooledge wrote: >> Telnet to bendel, port 25. Wait for the banner. Type "EHLO your.domain". >> Type "quit" to get out. > > The protocol is named SMTP. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Mail_Transfer_Protocol Oh yes ;) Thanks to Greg and Thomas. Gareth
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
Hi, > On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 08:16:20PM +, Gareth Evans wrote: > > > On 9 Nov 2023, at 13:47, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > > > > > > 220 bendel.debian.org ESMTP Postfix > > > ehlo penguin > > > 250-bendel.debian.org > > > 250-PIPELINING > > > 250-SIZE 3072 > > > 250-STARTTLS > > > 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES > > > 250-8BITMIME > > > 250 CHUNKING > > > quit > > > 221 2.0.0 Bye > > > > > > > Hi Byung-Hee, > > > > How did you generate that, assuming it's a response to some command(s)? > > Telnet to bendel, port 25. Wait for the banner. Type "EHLO your.domain". > Type "quit" to get out. The protocol is named SMTP. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simple_Mail_Transfer_Protocol Have a nice day :) Thomas
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Sat, Nov 11, 2023 at 08:16:20PM +, Gareth Evans wrote: > > On 9 Nov 2023, at 13:47, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > > > > 220 bendel.debian.org ESMTP Postfix > > ehlo penguin > > 250-bendel.debian.org > > 250-PIPELINING > > 250-SIZE 3072 > > 250-STARTTLS > > 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES > > 250-8BITMIME > > 250 CHUNKING > > quit > > 221 2.0.0 Bye > > > > Hi Byung-Hee, > > How did you generate that, assuming it's a response to some command(s)? Telnet to bendel, port 25. Wait for the banner. Type "EHLO your.domain". Type "quit" to get out.
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
> On 9 Nov 2023, at 13:47, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > > [...] > > 220 bendel.debian.org ESMTP Postfix > ehlo penguin > 250-bendel.debian.org > 250-PIPELINING > 250-SIZE 3072 > 250-STARTTLS > 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES > 250-8BITMIME > 250 CHUNKING > quit > 221 2.0.0 Bye > Hi Byung-Hee, How did you generate that, assuming it's a response to some command(s)? Thanks, Gareth > > So 3072 bytes? > > Still it was not tested myself... > > > Sincerely, Byung-Hee >
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 19:01:57 -0600
Nicholas Geovanis wrote:
Hello Nicholas,
>
>Or maybe they are used to the more recently-devised file sharing
>services which let you exchange zillions of much larger files than this
>list allows, but every hour. On any given day I might listen to several
You/they go there voluntarily. No one's forcing you to. Forcing
everyone on a ML to d/l one's 1meg+ attachment is a very different thing.
>It's a different use-case but the thoughts are all the same: Have you
'lack of thoughts' more like.
>ever used, say, an S3 bucket for your Debian EC2 VM in Amazon cloud?
No. No VM. No Amazon. More generally - No cloud services.
--
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/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
I don't care about anyone else I just care about me
I Just Care About Me - Stiff Little Fingers
pgp96szBswl1_.pgp
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Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 07:01:57PM -0600, Nicholas Geovanis wrote: > On Fri, Nov 10, 2023, 4:54 AM Brad Rogers wrote: > > > On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 18:10:12 +0800 > > hlyg wrote: > > > > Hello hlyg, > > > > (sweeping generalisation coming) > > People that upload such images are lazy, arrogant, and suffer > > from a massive sense of entitlement. > > > > Or maybe they are used to the more recently-devised file sharing services > which let you exchange zillions of much larger files [...] Maybe. In any case, the insults seem unnecessary and over the top (this goes to Brad, not to Nicholas). Debian's policy of limiting message size is understandable, given the limits on available resources. After all, it is a free service, and the project hasn't a river of investor capital to burn through, betting on the sale of harvested user's behavioural surplus. Still, everyone has the right to a honest mistake without being called arrogant and other things. Cheers -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, Nov 10, 2023, 4:54 AM Brad Rogers wrote:
> On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 18:10:12 +0800
> hlyg wrote:
>
> Hello hlyg,
>
> (sweeping generalisation coming)
> People that upload such images are lazy, arrogant, and suffer
> from a massive sense of entitlement.
>
Or maybe they are used to the more recently-devised file sharing services
which let you exchange zillions of much larger files than this list allows,
but every hour. On any given day I might listen to several hundred gigs of
industrial, goth and EBM music on YouTube and Bandcamp, for free. Not even
0.1% of what was added only that one day just in those 3 styles of music.
It's a different use-case but the thoughts are all the same: Have you ever
used, say, an S3 bucket for your Debian EC2 VM in Amazon cloud?
--
> Regards _ "Valid sig separator is {dash}{dash}{space}"
> / ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
> / _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
> If a thought came in your head it would die of loneliness
> I Don't Like You - Stiff Little Fingers
>
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 06:40:45AM +0100, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: > But whose list admins. My suspicion lies with the Outlook ones > (either they don't signal the rejection, or they eat the bounce, > or they had an Azure dropout or whatever). They are known to > behave erratically already. I see a few choices here. 1) Someone ELSE can try to send a 1.2 MB image attachment to this mailing list, PRAY TO $DEITY THAT IT FAILS, and then report to us in detail what happened. 2) Someone could ASK THE DEBIAN LIST ADMINS what the exact criteria are. 3) We could DROP THIS WHOLE FREAKING DISCUSSION. Sending image attachments of any size to a large mailing list is BAD and SHOULD NOT HAVE BEEN DONE TO BEGIN WITH. I, personally, do not want to be the asshole who sends a 1.2 MB image to a mailing list, just in case it somehow gets through, just to test something that doesn't need to be tested.
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, 10 Nov 2023 18:10:12 +0800
hlyg wrote:
Hello hlyg,
>how do you defend debian's vagueness that Large attachments are
>discouraged?
It's not really a matter of vagueness on Debian's part, but politeness
on the sender's part.
It's easy to forget that not everyone has an always on, unlimited
download, internet account. For those people still on dial up, with
limited data allowances, we should avoid attachments. Especially large
ones.
Personally, I'm dismayed that so many lists now allow multiple megabyte
attachments to be sent to their lists. Quite often, I see 80-90kbyte
(and more) images that show an error requester with text that could be
typed out in 60 characters or less. There's no need for that image to
be sent.
(sweeping generalisation coming)
People that upload such images are lazy, arrogant, and suffer
from a massive sense of entitlement.
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/ ) "The blindingly obvious is never immediately apparent"
/ _)rad "Is it only me that has a working delete key?"
If a thought came in your head it would die of loneliness
I Don't Like You - Stiff Little Fingers
pgpcB7xFEO6ac.pgp
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Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On 11/10/23 13:26, to...@tuxteam.de wrote: You don't know what happened afterwards. Perhaps your provider threw it away silently. Perhaps the bounce message itself got lost. I see you are @outlook.com. This is an... idiosyncratic provider: they invent strange rules "to protect you" (in reality rather to protect their business model). Perhaps they bounce the bounce message (Microsoft is like that) and then you'll never know your mail got lost. As things stand I trust the Debian mail admins more than the Outlook ones to play by the rules [1]. Much, much more. Cheers [1] one basic rule of mail is that, when you've accepted one you are responsible for it. Thank tomas! my experience with mail providers are limited i won't investigate further (send big mail thru other mail provider) as this isn't big issue for me and my time/energy is limited how do you defend debian's vagueness that Large attachments are discouraged? definition of large might change as network connection and storage device become cheap. this might seem naive as admin face malicious attack. there might be other considerations after all debian list and outlook are free
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 11:40:17AM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 01:47:01PM +, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote:
> > On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 02:04:39AM -0500, hlyg wrote:
> > > list doesn't seem to accept my mail, because of big attachment i believe
> > >
> > > what is max size of attachment allowed in list? Thanks!
>
> > This is my guess:
> >
> >
> > 220 bendel.debian.org ESMTP Postfix
> > ehlo penguin
> > 250-bendel.debian.org
> > 250-PIPELINING
> > 250-SIZE 3072
> > 250-STARTTLS
> > 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES
> > 250-8BITMIME
> > 250 CHUNKING
> > quit
> > 221 2.0.0 Bye
> >
> >
> > So 3072 bytes?
>
> That looks like an upper limit on the total message size, not the size
> of a MIME attachment inside the message.
In another message, hlyg said the attachment is 1.2M, so with encoding
and things that's not very unplausible.
My take as far as now is that the message was rejected while the
protocol was "in flight" as above, and outlook.com didn't care to
generate an error message. Or you have to opt-in to an extra service
with them to be able to see them. Or something more preposterous
(Microsoft always tops my dirtiest fantasies).
> Restrictions on the message content (such as attachment size limits)
> would have to be enforced by something that parses the message body.
> SMTP receivers usually don't do that (although they may hand the message
> off to an anti-virus scanner or something which does).
This is standard nowadays. In the bad old days you did that after the
fact and had to generate a bounce message. Since the sender has control
over the address to bounce to, spammers have misused that to use MTAs
as bouncers for their stuff (mail backscatter [1]). So parsing the
message during reception ("connection-stage rejection", see also [1])
has become standard since the early 2000s, latest 2010 AFAIR.
> The OP claimed they never received a bounce, so presumably their message
> was simply dropped into the bit bucket when it failed whatever criteria
> were applied. This is sensible behavior in any kind of post-SMTP
> processing, although it's super frustrating for a legitimate sender who
> now has no idea why their mail disappeared.
Actually, no. This is behaving in non-standard ways, and, as you see
above, it is avoidable.
> So, only the list admins would know the answer.
But whose list admins. My suspicion lies with the Outlook ones
(either they don't signal the rejection, or they eat the bounce,
or they had an Azure dropout or whatever). They are known to
behave erratically already.
Cheers
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Backscatter_(email)
--
t
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Description: PGP signature
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Fri, Nov 10, 2023 at 08:43:09AM +0800, hlyg wrote: > On 11/9/23 22:13, Marco M. wrote: > > > > > The MX MTA of the debian-users mailing list shouldn't accept an email > > that is too larger and should reject it with a proper 5xx message, so > > you know what happened. > > > problem mail is in Sent folder in Thunderbird(tb), it means that tb has sent > it successfully You don't know what happened afterwards. Perhaps your provider threw it away silently. Perhaps the bounce message itself got lost. I see you are @outlook.com. This is an... idiosyncratic provider: they invent strange rules "to protect you" (in reality rather to protect their business model). Perhaps they bounce the bounce message (Microsoft is like that) and then you'll never know your mail got lost. As things stand I trust the Debian mail admins more than the Outlook ones to play by the rules [1]. Much, much more. Cheers [1] one basic rule of mail is that, when you've accepted one you are responsible for it. -- t signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On 11/9/23 22:13, Marco M. wrote: The MX MTA of the debian-users mailing list shouldn't accept an email that is too larger and should reject it with a proper 5xx message, so you know what happened. problem mail is in Sent folder in Thunderbird(tb), it means that tb has sent it successfully or you send list mail with attachment bigger than 1.3M to see what will happen my attached file is about 1.2M
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 01:47:01PM +, Byung-Hee HWANG wrote: > On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 02:04:39AM -0500, hlyg wrote: > > list doesn't seem to accept my mail, because of big attachment i believe > > > > what is max size of attachment allowed in list? Thanks! > This is my guess: > > > 220 bendel.debian.org ESMTP Postfix > ehlo penguin > 250-bendel.debian.org > 250-PIPELINING > 250-SIZE 3072 > 250-STARTTLS > 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES > 250-8BITMIME > 250 CHUNKING > quit > 221 2.0.0 Bye > > > So 3072 bytes? That looks like an upper limit on the total message size, not the size of a MIME attachment inside the message. Restrictions on the message content (such as attachment size limits) would have to be enforced by something that parses the message body. SMTP receivers usually don't do that (although they may hand the message off to an anti-virus scanner or something which does). The OP claimed they never received a bounce, so presumably their message was simply dropped into the bit bucket when it failed whatever criteria were applied. This is sensible behavior in any kind of post-SMTP processing, although it's super frustrating for a legitimate sender who now has no idea why their mail disappeared. So, only the list admins would know the answer. As a general policy, I would *never* attach an image to any email sent to this list, regardless of size. This list should remain text only. If you absolutely have to send an image (photo of a misbehaving X server or whatever), your best bet would be to host the image on your personal web server or possibly on some global image-sharing web site (although very few of these are suitable), and include a URL to it in your email.
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
Am 09.11.2023 um 18:17:31 Uhr schrieb hlyg: > i think they shall be more specific about "large" The MX MTA of the debian-users mailing list shouldn't accept an email that is too larger and should reject it with a proper 5xx message, so you know what happened.
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On Thu, Nov 09, 2023 at 02:04:39AM -0500, hlyg wrote: > list doesn't seem to accept my mail, because of big attachment i believe > > what is max size of attachment allowed in list? Thanks! > Hellow, This is my guess: 220 bendel.debian.org ESMTP Postfix ehlo penguin 250-bendel.debian.org 250-PIPELINING 250-SIZE 3072 250-STARTTLS 250-ENHANCEDSTATUSCODES 250-8BITMIME 250 CHUNKING quit 221 2.0.0 Bye So 3072 bytes? Still it was not tested myself... Sincerely, Byung-Hee
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On 11/9/23 18:03, Max Nikulin wrote: https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/ Code of conduct - Avoid sending large attachments. https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines.2C_and_Tips Posting Rules, Guidelines, and Tips - Avoid sending large attachments. Consider using paste.debian.net and including a link in your post. Thank Max! it's photo file, more than 1 MB, i have used jpeg format, which use compression i think they shall be more specific about "large" PS: my problem in that mail has been solved
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
Hi. hlyg (12023-11-09): > list doesn't seem to accept my mail, because of big attachment i believe Good, I do not want to receive big attachments from mailing-lists — and no attachments at all from this one. And I am far from alone in that aspect. Regards, -- Nicolas George signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On 09/11/2023 14:04, hlyg wrote: list doesn't seem to accept my mail, because of big attachment i believe https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/ Code of conduct - Avoid sending large attachments. https://wiki.debian.org/DebianMailingLists#Posting_Rules.2C_Guidelines.2C_and_Tips Posting Rules, Guidelines, and Tips - Avoid sending large attachments. Consider using paste.debian.net and including a link in your post.
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
On 11/9/23 03:42, Marco M. wrote: Am 09.11.2023 um 02:04:39 Uhr schrieb hlyg: What is the exact message in the bounce mail you got? i haven't received bounce mail
Re: limit on attachment in mail to list
Am 09.11.2023 um 02:04:39 Uhr schrieb hlyg: > list doesn't seem to accept my mail, because of big attachment i > believe What is the exact message in the bounce mail you got?
limit on attachment in mail to list
list doesn't seem to accept my mail, because of big attachment i believe what is max size of attachment allowed in list? Thanks!
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
On 2023-09-25, Greg Wooledge wrote: > > The preferred policy nowadays is to perform all possible checks *during* > the initial SMTP conversation. If a message fails to meet acceptance > criteria for any reason, it should be rejected during that initial > conversation. Generating a bounce message almost always ends up sending > spam to an innocent third party address, which the malicious sender has > forged. > > How this relates to fetchmail and exim, specifically, I can't say. These > aren't tools I'm deeply familiar with. But if you can do it, try to > arrange it so that any message that can't be accepted gets dropped into > a black hole, rather than generating a bounce message. > > I guess this is what you're alluding to? https://starcat.dp.ua/doc/exim4/FAQ-html/FAQ_7.html 7. POLICY CONTROLS Q0701: How do I block unwanted messages from outside my host? A0701: Exim uses Access Control Lists (ACLs) for controlling incoming mail from other hosts. A whole chapter in the reference manual is devoted to describing how they work. A wide variety of conditions can be imposed on incoming messages. The default Exim run time configuration contains an example of an ACL which blocks all relaying, and messages whose senders cannot be verified. This example is heavily commented and worth studying. Q0702: I don't want to block spam entirely; how can I inspect each message before deciding whether or not to deliver it? A0702: Wherever possible, inspection and rejection is best done automatically in an ACL, that is, before the message is accepted. If you want to verify manually each message that is classified as spam by an automatic check, you can arrange for a system filter to freeze such messages after they have been accepted. If, after inspection, you decide not to deliver the message, it is safest to discard it, using the -Mrm option. Use of the -Mg option to force a bounce carries the risk of “collateral spam” if the sender address is faked (as it usually is in spam).
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
On 9/25/23 17:11, Greg Wooledge wrote: On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 04:49:52PM -0600, Rick Macdonald wrote: Lastly, do I understand correctly that the root of this whole issue is simply misformed headers in the original spam mail that I receive at my Dreamhost account? Oh, and does all this lead to the "Frozen Message" emails I receive (described in a prior email)? I'm not an exim expert, but it seems the fundamental issue here is that your actual receiving MTA (Dreamhost) accepted these messages, but your local exim MTA refused to accept them. Fetchmail kept trying to move the messages from the former to the latter, which failed each time, and caused exim to generate a new bounce message. Each time. The same issue would have arisen in any situation where the first MTA and the second MTA have differing acceptance criteria. Could be syntax errors, could be antispam policy, could be anything that's different between the two MTAs. One of the big revelations in email administration in the last few decades is that the original SMTP design, in which messages were accepted liberally, with bounces generated after the fact if deliveries were not possible, was flawed. It led to many kinds of abuse by malicious senders. The preferred policy nowadays is to perform all possible checks *during* the initial SMTP conversation. If a message fails to meet acceptance criteria for any reason, it should be rejected during that initial conversation. Generating a bounce message almost always ends up sending spam to an innocent third party address, which the malicious sender has forged. How this relates to fetchmail and exim, specifically, I can't say. These aren't tools I'm deeply familiar with. But if you can do it, try to arrange it so that any message that can't be accepted gets dropped into a black hole, rather than generating a bounce message. Thanks Greg. Your summary matches my new understanding. I looked at the Dreamhost mail options and don't see where I can change anything, so the next time I get an email stuck there I'll try adding the fetchmail --nosoftbounce option which should quietly delete the bad message on the server, and stop any future bounce messages. Rick
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 04:49:52PM -0600, Rick Macdonald wrote: > Lastly, do I understand correctly that the root of this whole issue is > simply misformed headers in the original spam mail that I receive at my > Dreamhost account? Oh, and does all this lead to the "Frozen Message" emails > I receive (described in a prior email)? I'm not an exim expert, but it seems the fundamental issue here is that your actual receiving MTA (Dreamhost) accepted these messages, but your local exim MTA refused to accept them. Fetchmail kept trying to move the messages from the former to the latter, which failed each time, and caused exim to generate a new bounce message. Each time. The same issue would have arisen in any situation where the first MTA and the second MTA have differing acceptance criteria. Could be syntax errors, could be antispam policy, could be anything that's different between the two MTAs. One of the big revelations in email administration in the last few decades is that the original SMTP design, in which messages were accepted liberally, with bounces generated after the fact if deliveries were not possible, was flawed. It led to many kinds of abuse by malicious senders. The preferred policy nowadays is to perform all possible checks *during* the initial SMTP conversation. If a message fails to meet acceptance criteria for any reason, it should be rejected during that initial conversation. Generating a bounce message almost always ends up sending spam to an innocent third party address, which the malicious sender has forged. How this relates to fetchmail and exim, specifically, I can't say. These aren't tools I'm deeply familiar with. But if you can do it, try to arrange it so that any message that can't be accepted gets dropped into a black hole, rather than generating a bounce message.
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
On 9/25/23 14:58, Rick Macdonald wrote: Some of the mail in the queue is up to 4 days old. I'm going to clear it all out to see what new arrives in this state. I've made a bit of progress. First, I deleted the almost 6000 messages in the mail queue: # mailq | grep 1q | cut -c11-26 | xargs exim4 -Mrm Then I noticed that I was still getting more, but always the same 4 messages. I checked on the Dreamhost server where I pull my mail from and sure enough found those 4 messages "stuck" there. I deleted the 4 from Dreamhost, and now all is quiet for the moment. These 4 messages were all spam. I think the mail in the "mailq" kept growing because fetchmail was repeatedly trying but failing to retrieve the same messages over and over. I see a fetchmail option that might help, but I'm wondering if I might then lose some non-spam problematic mail that fetchmail can't fetch? *--nosoftbounce* (since v6.3.10, Keyword: set no softbounce, since v6.3.10) Hard bounce mode. All permanent delivery errors cause messages to be deleted from the upstream server, see "no softbounce" below. *--softbounce* (since v6.3.10, Keyword: set softbounce, since v6.3.10) Soft bounce mode. All permanent delivery errors cause messages to be left on the upstream server if the protocol supports that. Default to match historic fetchmail documentation, to be changed to hard bounce mode in the next fetchmail release. I'm running fetchmail v6.4.37. It appears that --softbounce is still the default. Since they intend to change the default someday to --nosoftbounce, maybe this option isn't as dangerous as it sounds to me? Lastly, do I understand correctly that the root of this whole issue is simply misformed headers in the original spam mail that I receive at my Dreamhost account? Oh, and does all this lead to the "Frozen Message" emails I receive (described in a prior email)? Rick
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
On 9/25/23 14:25, Andy Smith wrote: Hi Rick, Your system has rejected a spam email, not because it worked out it was spam, but because it was syntactically invalid. That's good, but unfortunately your system decided to helpfully tell the (spam) sender what had happened, by trying to send this bounce message back: On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 12:24:52PM -0600, Rick Macdonald wrote: # exim4 -Mvb 1qkOYj-001Hnf-2V 1qkOYj-001Hnf-2V-D --foo-mani-padme-hum-306716-2546159-1695559801 Content-Type: text/plain This message was created automatically by mail delivery software. A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its recipients. This is a permanent error. Reason: General SMTP/ESMTP error. The following address(es) failed: rickm@localhost SMTP error: 550 header syntax --foo-mani-padme-hum-306716-2546159-1695559801 Content-Type: message/delivery-status Reporting-MTA: dns; timshel Final-Recipient: rfc822; rickm@localhost Last-Attempt-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 06:50:01 -0600 (MDT) Action: failed Status: 5.0.0 Diagnostic-Code: 550 header syntax --foo-mani-padme-hum-306716-2546159-1695559801 Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers X-Original-To: ri...@timshel.ca Delivered-To: x2959...@pdx1-sub0-mail-mx207.dreamhost.com Received: from tulsa.turntext.co (unknown [104.234.25.229]) by pdx1-sub0-mail-mx207.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id 4RtbVJ37KPz6m2v for ; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 23:20:56 -0700 (PDT) DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; s=k1; d=turntext.co; h=Mime-Version:Content-Type:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Message-ID; i=wornkneecartil...@turntext.co; bh=CBxd431jRA2owpgtRRwIfhh07HQ=; b=gHSMnk0fIYnLGQMVojCZV3z41dNcSDXALZjYjGOQIeWpdDRnH1sBJQfHSP1kzPxUfJa/crsQxxk0 EEY0hk6SjSg1YMK0YDqaT3OXZpz67fAgfVqbB+/ZLA7peSq+mggzKwXIfesN5AC+H7c6pFd6rOii E7T+FwmD2FKVnP6z0is= DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; q=dns; s=k1; d=turntext.co; b=FZY5bgp2/ypBd4Xc/Efzs345ind+OlkYi2NY3G5/m9tEesrUIeIGeE3JR8wlb2+gDhJDNA2BmzYx 53+nwYoiSBgyl/seZvILf1Ojhxg2y0YQWVwzF4LYDunZHfOV8RsiXxhHwL+xjbcTK3zPuKvdOjRF 1yRVz4iZe7AkjSr5Veo=; Mime-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/alternative; boundary="21ceb14ceae19fd582462d70f2ee8d8a" Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 23:19:41 -0700 From: "Knee Hurts?" Reply-To: "Knee Hurts?" One of those two are probably the headers that your Exim objects to, since they have spaces in the local parts of the address without quoting. The whole emails are of course, unwanted spam. Your other problem, and the reason you have noticed this, is that your smarthost does not want to accept these helpful bounce messages that you are generating. They are using a temporary failure code (451) but their mention of the "AUP" string leads me to believe that they may suspect the messages are spam or spam-related and want nothing to do with them. Either way, they are useless messages and you should stop trying to send them. If my system is trying to reply tho them, should I stop it from trying to reply? (Of course I don't know how to do that!) You can remove them from your mail queue with: # eim4 -Mrm You can get the ids from the "mailq" command or reading your logs. You can specify multiple ids per command line. After doing that you may want to look into how you can avoid sending bounce messages to emails that your system doesn't want to accept. These bounce messages are happening outside of the original SMTP connection (which was between the sender and the MX for your domain) and are generally "too little, too late". Additionally, it seems like you may be sending them as rickm@localhost, which is not helpful even when they are justified. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with your setup so wouldn't know how to configure that. The mailq command shows many of the following: 16m 2.6K 1qks1r-005B1x-2l <> 6626-879-8427-40-rickm=timshel...@mail.purecuresol.co 15m 3.1K 1qks2o-005BHh-0S <> bounce+c764ac.103fa-rickm=timshel...@inputhealth.com 15m 2.6K 1qks2o-005BI0-2K <> 6595-611-17423-903-rickm=timshel...@mail.turntext.co 15m 2.7K 1qks2p-005BIG-0u <> 6613-452-119912-590-rickm=timshel...@mail.ikariacool.co 15m 2.6K 1qks2p-005BIL-2m <> 6626-879-8427-40-rickm=timshel...@mail.purecuresol.co ...etc... 2m 2.7K 1qksFP-005Hqj-0e <> *** frozen *** 6613-452-119912-590-rickm=timshel...@mail.ikariacool.co 2m 2.6K 1qksFP-005Hqs-2U <> *** frozen *** 6626-879-8427-40-rickm=timshel...@mail.purecuresol.co 1m 3.1K 1qksGL-005IAq-2A <> *** frozen *** bounce+c764ac.103fa-rickm=timshel...@inputhealth.com 1m 2.6K 1qksGM-005IBF-0n <> *** frozen *** 6595-611-17423-903-rickm=timshel...@mail.turntext.co 1m 2.7K 1qksGM-005IBh-2h <> *** frozen *** 6613-452-119912-590-rickm=timshel...@mail.ikariacool.co 1m 2.6K 1qksGN-005IBo-1O <> *** froze
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
On 9/25/23 12:42, Michael Kjörling wrote: The following address(es) failed: rickm@localhost SMTP error: 550 header syntax So something running on your local system almost certainly tried to send mail to either "rickm" or "rickm@localhost", and that triggered queuing the non-delivery notice which you're seeing evidence of in your outgoing mail logs. Do you have something like fetchmail set up in multidrop mode, any forwarding procmail rules, spam filtering, or anything similar, especially ones that would be triggered by something being sent to... Not multi-drop mode, no forwarding procmail rules: only delivery to mail folders (and a few to /dev/null). I did find that I had Thunderbird Return Receipts turned on for some cases. I thought it was set to "always ask me". I've used Thunderbird forever, and it's asked me maybe once. However, I see now something that I missed understanding: If I'm not in the To or Cc of the message: Ask me These spam emails would have me in the To field. Could this be the origin of these reply attempts? I've now set it to "Never", but based on your comments and Andy's, this doesn't seem to be the source of the messages? Rick
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 08:25:48PM +, Andy Smith wrote: > You can remove them from your mail queue with: > > # eim4 -Mrm typo of "exim4" -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
Hi Rick, Your system has rejected a spam email, not because it worked out it was spam, but because it was syntactically invalid. That's good, but unfortunately your system decided to helpfully tell the (spam) sender what had happened, by trying to send this bounce message back: On Mon, Sep 25, 2023 at 12:24:52PM -0600, Rick Macdonald wrote: > # exim4 -Mvb 1qkOYj-001Hnf-2V > > 1qkOYj-001Hnf-2V-D > --foo-mani-padme-hum-306716-2546159-1695559801 > Content-Type: text/plain > > This message was created automatically by mail delivery software. > > A message that you sent could not be delivered to one or more of its > recipients. This is a permanent error. > > Reason: General SMTP/ESMTP error. > > The following address(es) failed: > rickm@localhost > SMTP error: 550 header syntax > > --foo-mani-padme-hum-306716-2546159-1695559801 > Content-Type: message/delivery-status > > Reporting-MTA: dns; timshel > > Final-Recipient: rfc822; rickm@localhost > Last-Attempt-Date: Sun, 24 Sep 2023 06:50:01 -0600 (MDT) > Action: failed > Status: 5.0.0 > Diagnostic-Code: 550 header syntax > > --foo-mani-padme-hum-306716-2546159-1695559801 > Content-Type: text/rfc822-headers > > X-Original-To: ri...@timshel.ca > Delivered-To: x2959...@pdx1-sub0-mail-mx207.dreamhost.com > Received: from tulsa.turntext.co (unknown [104.234.25.229]) > by pdx1-sub0-mail-mx207.dreamhost.com (Postfix) with ESMTP id > 4RtbVJ37KPz6m2v > for ; Sat, 23 Sep 2023 23:20:56 -0700 (PDT) > DKIM-Signature: v=1; a=rsa-sha1; c=relaxed/relaxed; s=k1; d=turntext.co; > h=Mime-Version:Content-Type:Date:From:Reply-To:Subject:To:Message-ID; > i=wornkneecartil...@turntext.co; > bh=CBxd431jRA2owpgtRRwIfhh07HQ=; > > b=gHSMnk0fIYnLGQMVojCZV3z41dNcSDXALZjYjGOQIeWpdDRnH1sBJQfHSP1kzPxUfJa/crsQxxk0 > EEY0hk6SjSg1YMK0YDqaT3OXZpz67fAgfVqbB+/ZLA7peSq+mggzKwXIfesN5AC+H7c6pFd6rOii > E7T+FwmD2FKVnP6z0is= > DomainKey-Signature: a=rsa-sha1; c=nofws; q=dns; s=k1; d=turntext.co; > > b=FZY5bgp2/ypBd4Xc/Efzs345ind+OlkYi2NY3G5/m9tEesrUIeIGeE3JR8wlb2+gDhJDNA2BmzYx > 53+nwYoiSBgyl/seZvILf1Ojhxg2y0YQWVwzF4LYDunZHfOV8RsiXxhHwL+xjbcTK3zPuKvdOjRF > 1yRVz4iZe7AkjSr5Veo=; > Mime-Version: 1.0 > Content-Type: multipart/alternative; > boundary="21ceb14ceae19fd582462d70f2ee8d8a" > Date: Sat, 23 Sep 2023 23:19:41 -0700 > From: "Knee Hurts?" > Reply-To: "Knee Hurts?" One of those two are probably the headers that your Exim objects to, since they have spaces in the local parts of the address without quoting. The whole emails are of course, unwanted spam. Your other problem, and the reason you have noticed this, is that your smarthost does not want to accept these helpful bounce messages that you are generating. They are using a temporary failure code (451) but their mention of the "AUP" string leads me to believe that they may suspect the messages are spam or spam-related and want nothing to do with them. Either way, they are useless messages and you should stop trying to send them. > If my system is trying to reply tho them, should I stop it from trying to > reply? (Of course I don't know how to do that!) You can remove them from your mail queue with: # eim4 -Mrm You can get the ids from the "mailq" command or reading your logs. You can specify multiple ids per command line. After doing that you may want to look into how you can avoid sending bounce messages to emails that your system doesn't want to accept. These bounce messages are happening outside of the original SMTP connection (which was between the sender and the MX for your domain) and are generally "too little, too late". Additionally, it seems like you may be sending them as rickm@localhost, which is not helpful even when they are justified. I'm afraid I'm not familiar with your setup so wouldn't know how to configure that. > I should explain that my domain and email address are hosted at Dreamhost. I > use fetchmail to pull it from there to the IMAP server that I run on my > Linux machine. So I think that means these reply attempts occur when > fetchmail passes mail to my local machine. I've been adding more and more > rules to my procmail filtering, but I don't know if these reply attempts are > before or after procmail processes my rules. These appear to be because fetchmail attempted to deliver messages to you that were syntactically invalid, so your Exim rejected them and generated a bounce message to the sender to be helpful. You never saw the messages and procmail was not involved as Exim did not get as far as doing a delivery attempt. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
On 25 Sep 2023 12:24 -0600, from rickm...@shaw.ca (Rick Macdonald): > # exim4 -Mvl 1qkOYj-001Hnf-2V > > 2023-09-24 06:50:01 Received from <> H=(timshel) [::1] P=smtp S=2662 ::1 is IPv6 localhost. So whatever caused that particular message to be sent is almost certainly local to your system. Good. > 2023-09-25 06:41:16 6595-611-17423-903-rickm=timshel...@mail.turntext.co > R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-45) H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net > [64.59.136.142]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> > SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT Looks like your ISP's smarthost doesn't want null envelope return addresses. 4xx is supposed to be temporary, but seems to me like they are doing it as a pseudo-permanent-error response. > # exim4 -Mvh 1qkOYj-001Hnf-2V ... > --helo_name timshel > -host_address [::1]:34848 > -interface_address [::1]:25 Again, seems to me like confirmation that the email with that particular ID originated locally on your host, not on the network. Which is good, because it means your SMTP server is likely not being abused as an open relay. > The following address(es) failed: > rickm@localhost > SMTP error: 550 header syntax So something running on your local system almost certainly tried to send mail to either "rickm" or "rickm@localhost", and that triggered queuing the non-delivery notice which you're seeing evidence of in your outgoing mail logs. Do you have something like fetchmail set up in multidrop mode, any forwarding procmail rules, spam filtering, or anything similar, especially ones that would be triggered by something being sent to... > X-Original-To: ri...@timshel.ca I know that fetchmail at least used to have a way to set it up to take the local part from the recipient email address and forward that to the local MTA/MDA for delivery. If usernames don't match exactly, that's an easy way to go astray and potentially cause backscatter, especially if you're also set up to use your ISP's outgoing SMTP server as a smarthost. And from Rick: >> I note that the destination addresses on these messages are of the form: >> >> <6626-879-8427-40-rickm=timshel...@mail.purecuresol.co> Indeed, good catch. -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
On 9/25/23 08:29, Michael Kjörling wrote: On 24 Sep 2023 20:58 -0600, from rickm...@shaw.ca (Rick Macdonald): My /var/log/.exim4/log file is flooded with messages such as shown below. I'm not trying to send mail to any of those .co or .com addresses. I use my ISP (shaw.ca cable provider) as a smarthost. Are people trying to use my system as a relay? The log snippet you show doesn't include enough information to tell for certain where those emails were originally accepted from, but given what you wrote I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand. I've sent some more log info just now in a reply to Andy Smith. If so, can I block them without cutting myself off from remote access to the IMAP server I run on my system? You don't seem to be exposing any SMTP server to the outside world, so I don't know what might reasonably be going on. Otherwise blocking off TCP ports 25 and 587 would probably have been a good place to start. Sorry if I sound lame. I set this up over 20 years ago and haven't done anything to it since. If you set it up in the early 2000s and haven't done anything since then, there's certainly a non-zero probability that it's set up as an open relay. But although that's a potential problem, it would only be a _big_ problem if it was accessible from outside of your network, which does not _immediately_ appear to be the case. Ports 25 and 587 are not forwarded by my ASUS router. They may well have been back in the day. However, on a semi-unrelated note, you might want to make sure that the firmware and software is up to date on everything you _do_ expose to the Internet. It looks like ASUS' web server has had stack-smashing vulnerabilities previously (not sure if the RT-AC66U is affected), and whatever is running through Restlet Framework on port 23424 reports a version of server software that hasn't been updated since 2014. And that's just some of what I plausibly found barely looking. Well spotted! Port 23424 was for a server that I stopped running just last week. I have now removed it from my port forwarding. Thanks Michael! Rick
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
On 9/25/23 10:03, Andy Smith wrote: Hi Rick, On Sun, Sep 24, 2023 at 08:58:04PM -0600, Rick Macdonald wrote: 2023-09-24 20:48:37 1qkRDH-001Zqh-1Z == 6626-879-8427-40-rickm=timshel...@mail.purecuresol.co R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-54): retry time not reached for any host for 'mail.purecuresol.co' There isn't anything shown except delivery attempts so we can';t see how these messages got in to your system. You can see all logs related to this message with: # exim4 -Mvl 1qkOYj-001Hnf-2V and view its headers and body with "-Mvh" and "-Mvb" respectively. That might give you some more hints. Thanks Andy! Here are those lists: # exim4 -Mvl 1qkOYj-001Hnf-2V 2023-09-24 06:50:01 Received from <> H=(timshel) [::1] P=smtp S=2662 2023-09-24 06:50:05 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.128.135]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 06:50:08 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.136.142]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 06:50:08 6595-611-17423-903-rickm=timshel...@mail.turntext.co R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-45) H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.136.142]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 07:38:45 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.128.135]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 07:38:48 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.136.142]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 07:38:48 6595-611-17423-903-rickm=timshel...@mail.turntext.co R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-45) H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.136.142]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 07:56:28 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.136.142]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 07:56:31 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.128.135]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 07:56:31 6595-611-17423-903-rickm=timshel...@mail.turntext.co R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-45) H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.128.135]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 08:37:50 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.136.142]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 08:37:53 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.128.135]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 08:37:53 6595-611-17423-903-rickm=timshel...@mail.turntext.co R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-45) H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.128.135]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 09:23:46 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.128.135]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 09:23:49 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.136.142]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 09:23:49 6595-611-17423-903-rickm=timshel...@mail.turntext.co R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-45) H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.136.142]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 10:54:59 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.136.142]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 10:55:02 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.128.135]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 10:55:02 6595-611-17423-903-rickm=timshel...@mail.turntext.co R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-45) H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.128.135]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:<> SIZE=3752: 451 <> server temporarily unavailable. AUP#MXRT 2023-09-24 12:50:28 H=shawmail.glb.shawcable.net [64.59.136.142]: SMTP error from remote mail server after MAIL FROM:&
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
Hi Rick, On Sun, Sep 24, 2023 at 08:58:04PM -0600, Rick Macdonald wrote: > 2023-09-24 20:48:37 1qkRDH-001Zqh-1Z == > 6626-879-8427-40-rickm=timshel...@mail.purecuresol.co R=smarthost > T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-54): retry time not reached for any host for > 'mail.purecuresol.co' There isn't anything shown except delivery attempts so we can';t see how these messages got in to your system. You can see all logs related to this message with: # exim4 -Mvl 1qkOYj-001Hnf-2V and view its headers and body with "-Mvh" and "-Mvb" respectively. That might give you some more hints. I note that the destination addresses on these messages are of the form: <6626-879-8427-40-rickm=timshel...@mail.purecuresol.co> and your name is Rick Macdonald, so it seems possible to me that they have sent you an email with their envelope sender set to <6626-879-8427-40-rickm=timshel...@mail.purecuresol.co> which implies they might have sent it TO (an address for you encoded in their envelope sender so they can track bounces), which might be you. Perhaps your system is trying to send a response to a mail you have received. Cheers, Andy -- https://bitfolk.com/ -- No-nonsense VPS hosting
Re: Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
On 24 Sep 2023 20:58 -0600, from rickm...@shaw.ca (Rick Macdonald): > My /var/log/.exim4/log file is flooded with messages such as shown below. > I'm not trying to send mail to any of those .co or .com addresses. I use my > ISP (shaw.ca cable provider) as a smarthost. > > Are people trying to use my system as a relay? The log snippet you show doesn't include enough information to tell for certain where those emails were originally accepted from, but given what you wrote I wouldn't dismiss the possibility out of hand. > If so, can I block them > without cutting myself off from remote access to the IMAP server I run on my > system? You don't seem to be exposing any SMTP server to the outside world, so I don't know what might reasonably be going on. Otherwise blocking off TCP ports 25 and 587 would probably have been a good place to start. IMAP and SMTP solve completely different problems and last I looked Exim didn't even talk IMAP, so even blocking off one should have zero effect on the other. > Sorry if I sound lame. I set this up over 20 years ago and haven't done > anything to it since. If you set it up in the early 2000s and haven't done anything since then, there's certainly a non-zero probability that it's set up as an open relay. But although that's a potential problem, it would only be a _big_ problem if it was accessible from outside of your network, which does not _immediately_ appear to be the case. However, on a semi-unrelated note, you might want to make sure that the firmware and software is up to date on everything you _do_ expose to the Internet. It looks like ASUS' web server has had stack-smashing vulnerabilities previously (not sure if the RT-AC66U is affected), and whatever is running through Restlet Framework on port 23424 reports a version of server software that hasn't been updated since 2014. And that's just some of what I plausibly found barely looking. -- Michael Kjörling https://michael.kjorling.se “Remember when, on the Internet, nobody cared that you were a dog?”
Are people trying to relay mail through my system?
My /var/log/.exim4/log file is flooded with messages such as shown below. I'm not trying to send mail to any of those .co or .com addresses. I use my ISP (shaw.ca cable provider) as a smarthost. Are people trying to use my system as a relay? If so, can I block them without cutting myself off from remote access to the IMAP server I run on my system? Sorry if I sound lame. I set this up over 20 years ago and haven't done anything to it since. 2023-09-24 20:48:37 1qkRDH-001Zqh-1Z == 6626-879-8427-40-rickm=timshel...@mail.purecuresol.co R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-54): retry time not reached for any host for 'mail.purecuresol.co' 2023-09-24 20:48:37 1qkOYj-001Hnf-2V == 6595-611-17423-903-rickm=timshel...@mail.turntext.co R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-54): retry time not reached for any host for 'mail.turntext.co' 2023-09-24 20:48:37 1qkLEb-000vn2-2D == bounce+c764ac.103fa-rickm=timshel...@inputhealth.com R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-54): retry time not reached for any host for 'inputhealth.com' 2023-09-24 20:48:37 1qk8eb-00HQEW-2o == bounce+c764ac.103fa-rickm=timshel...@inputhealth.com R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-54): retry time not reached for any host for 'inputhealth.com' 2023-09-24 20:48:37 1qkRGA-001aA2-2k == 6613-452-119912-590-rickm=timshel...@mail.ikariacool.co R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-54): retry time not reached for any host for 'mail.ikariacool.co' 2023-09-24 20:48:37 1qkDDB-000ChQ-2S == bounce+c764ac.103fa-rickm=timshel...@inputhealth.com R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-54): retry time not reached for any host for 'inputhealth.com' 2023-09-24 20:48:37 1qkZIY-002gsG-0D == 6613-452-119912-590-rickm=timshel...@mail.ikariacool.co R=smarthost T=remote_smtp_smarthost defer (-54): retry time not reached for any host for 'mail.ikariacool.co' Rick
Re: Thunderbird vs Claws Mail
Hi, On 15.08.23 21:48, Russell L. Harris wrote: Consider evolution. Tried it. Used >6GB RAM. .f OpenPGP_signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: HS: test après coupure du mail.
Bonjour oui cela ne m'est pas venu à l'esprit. Cordialement Le 23/08/2023 à 15:57, François TOURDE a écrit : Le 19592ième jour après Epoch, Informatique BILLARD écrivait: Test François-Marie Selon https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#codeofconduct il faut éviter d'envoyer ce genre de messages. Tu peux toujours t'adresser à Majordomo pour voir l'état de ton inscription. Extrait de https://www.debian.org/MailingLists/#subunsub : Si vous n'êtes pas sûr d'être inscrit à l'une de nos listes de diffusion, envoyez un message à majord...@lists.debian.org avec which votre.adresse@electronique dans le corps. Des informations supplémentaires sur ce service (le dénommé "MajorSmart") sont disponibles en envoyant un autre message à la même adresse avec help dans le corps du message.
