Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Thursday 07 March 2024 02:44:42 pm Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 02:33:05PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> > On Thursday 07 March 2024 09:02:44 am Teemu Likonen wrote:
> > > systemctl status systemd-timesyncd.service
> > 
> > This got me some interesting results:
> > 
> > ● systemd-timesyncd.service - Network Time Synchronization
> >Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service; enabled; 
> > vendor preset: enabled)
> >   Drop-In: /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d
> >└─disable-with-time-daemon.conf
> >Active: inactive (dead)
> > Condition: start condition failed at Wed 2024-02-14 16:17:31 EST; 3 weeks 0 
> > days ago
> >└─ ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/VBoxService was not met
> >  Docs: man:systemd-timesyncd.service(8)
> > 
> > Hmm.
> 
> Are you running that on a virtualbox client, or a virtualbox host?

That was on the host.  The client is running an older version of Slackware.
 
> In any case, you might find it interesting to read the unit file in
> question ("systemctl cat systemd-timesyncd.service").  It looks like
> you've got one of the slightly older kind, where the service is always
> installed, but is prevented from running if any of several different
> programs is found.
 
Yes,  I'm running older software here.  I did that and see those listed near 
the end of it.  The system does seem to do okay with keeping the right time,  
though,  for the most part.  The only rough spot was the RTC was way off,  but 
that's now been fixed... 


-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: strange time problem with bullseye/buster

[Max Nikulin]

On 08/03/2024 07:17, gene heskett wrote:

I have NDI how to extract chrony's logs from journalctl.


- man journalctl,
- docs listed on the systemd web site.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye/buster

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 21:30, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 19:17:02 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:

On 3/7/24 12:19, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 11:29:47 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:

On 3/7/24 10:59, Greg Wooledge wrote:



You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
removed.




In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
was found.

I don't remember which version did which thing.

And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.


and because the printer is arm stuff, its old armbian buster vintage.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ sudo apt purge systemd-timesyncd
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Package 'systemd-timesyncd' is not installed, so not removed
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
yet timedatectl is still there and shows:
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ timedatectl
 Local time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:15:53 EST
 Universal time: Thu 2024-03-07 16:15:53 UTC
   RTC time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:04:39
  Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
System clock synchronized: no
NTP service: inactive
RTC in local TZ: no
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
And the local time shown above is correct to the second.


Debian's buster's systemd (241) has timesyncd built-in, so you may
find that   ls -l /lib/systemd/systemd-timesyncd still finds it.

The output from timedatectl is worrying. I would monitor chrony and
check its logs to see if it it's doing anything. After all, you had
ntpsec running until a "moment" ago, so you'd hardly expect the clock
to be wrong by now.


At the instant I removed ntpsec and minute later whem I re-installed
chrony, the time on that printer was around 20 hours stale. By about a
minute after chrony started, which the install did, time was
synchronized.

And still is. Somehow, it resurrected the customized
/etc/chrony/chrony.conf which pointed it at this machines ntpsec
server. So I didn't have to re-invent that wheel. It just Worked.
Memory in the u-sd card? IDK.

I have NDI how to extract chrony's logs from journalctl.


You could run these commands as an ordinary user instead:

   $ chronyc sources
   $ chronyc sourcestats
   $ chronyc tracking

which will give you an idea of what it is doing.

Cheers,
David.

.

mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ chronyc tracking
Reference ID: C0A84703 (coyote.coyote.den)
Stratum : 4
Ref time (UTC)  : Fri Mar 08 03:23:48 2024
System time : 0.06175 seconds slow of NTP time
Last offset : -0.05491 seconds
RMS offset  : 0.07778 seconds
Frequency   : 6.590 ppm slow
Residual freq   : -0.002 ppm
Skew: 0.036 ppm
Root delay  : 0.034696314 seconds
Root dispersion : 0.054448538 seconds
Update interval : 64.5 seconds
Leap status : Normal

Looks good to me. ;o)>

Thanks David. Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye/buster

[David Wright]

On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 19:17:02 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:
> On 3/7/24 12:19, David Wright wrote:
> > On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 11:29:47 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:
> > > On 3/7/24 10:59, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > 
> > > > You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
> > > > removed.
> > > > 
> > > 
> > > > In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
> > > > systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
> > > > or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
> > > > had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
> > > > and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
> > > > was found.
> > > > 
> > > > I don't remember which version did which thing.
> > > > 
> > > > And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
> > > > off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.
> > > > 
> > > and because the printer is arm stuff, its old armbian buster vintage.
> > > mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ sudo apt purge systemd-timesyncd
> > > Reading package lists... Done
> > > Building dependency tree
> > > Reading state information... Done
> > > Package 'systemd-timesyncd' is not installed, so not removed
> > > 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
> > > mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
> > > yet timedatectl is still there and shows:
> > > mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ timedatectl
> > > Local time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:15:53 EST
> > > Universal time: Thu 2024-03-07 16:15:53 UTC
> > >   RTC time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:04:39
> > >  Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
> > > System clock synchronized: no
> > >NTP service: inactive
> > >RTC in local TZ: no
> > > mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
> > > And the local time shown above is correct to the second.
> > 
> > Debian's buster's systemd (241) has timesyncd built-in, so you may
> > find that   ls -l /lib/systemd/systemd-timesyncd still finds it.
> > 
> > The output from timedatectl is worrying. I would monitor chrony and
> > check its logs to see if it it's doing anything. After all, you had
> > ntpsec running until a "moment" ago, so you'd hardly expect the clock
> > to be wrong by now.
> 
> At the instant I removed ntpsec and minute later whem I re-installed
> chrony, the time on that printer was around 20 hours stale. By about a
> minute after chrony started, which the install did, time was
> synchronized.
> 
> And still is. Somehow, it resurrected the customized
> /etc/chrony/chrony.conf which pointed it at this machines ntpsec
> server. So I didn't have to re-invent that wheel. It just Worked.
> Memory in the u-sd card? IDK.
> 
> I have NDI how to extract chrony's logs from journalctl.

You could run these commands as an ordinary user instead:

  $ chronyc sources
  $ chronyc sourcestats
  $ chronyc tracking

which will give you an idea of what it is doing.

Cheers,
David.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 14:16, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

On Wednesday 06 March 2024 12:42:12 pm Greg Wooledge wrote:

How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?


"hwclock -w" to copy the system clock to the hardware clock (RTC).  This
should also be done during shutdown, but it doesn't hurt to do it now.


True, but needs a sudo in front if it in my case on that armbian buster 
machine.
  
That seemed to do what I needed.


I don't ordinarily shut this machine down for the most part.  Every once in a while all 
of my swap partition gets filled up,  and then there's this continuous hard drive 
activity that I'm assuming is what they mean by "thrashing". The only option at 
that point is to get its attention with the power switch.  And then I need to go through 
a whole routing with bringing up what I had going,  including re-starting virtualbox and 
the stuff that runs in it,  etc.  If I'm lucky then I can get back the windows I had 
going before,  sometimes I'm not so lucky.  A system monitor I run on desktop 4 always 
comes up,  but on the wrong desktop and I have to move it.

The "eat all available memory" culprit seems to be firefox.  I just need to 
look at that system monitor every once in a while and when things start getting excessive 
shut firefox down and restart it.  Then I don't have the problem...

I'm not sure if I have ntp or something else running here.  (Looking...)  I 
don't see it in my process list.




Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye/buster

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 12:19, David Wright wrote:

On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 11:29:47 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:

On 3/7/24 10:59, Greg Wooledge wrote:



You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
removed.




In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
was found.

I don't remember which version did which thing.

And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.


and because the printer is arm stuff, its old armbian buster vintage.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ sudo apt purge systemd-timesyncd
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Package 'systemd-timesyncd' is not installed, so not removed
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
yet timedatectl is still there and shows:
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ timedatectl
Local time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:15:53 EST
Universal time: Thu 2024-03-07 16:15:53 UTC
  RTC time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:04:39
 Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
System clock synchronized: no
   NTP service: inactive
   RTC in local TZ: no
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
And the local time shown above is correct to the second.


Debian's buster's systemd (241) has timesyncd built-in, so you may
find that   ls -l /lib/systemd/systemd-timesyncd still finds it.

The output from timedatectl is worrying. I would monitor chrony and
check its logs to see if it it's doing anything. After all, you had
ntpsec running until a "moment" ago, so you'd hardly expect the clock
to be wrong by now.


At the instant I removed ntpsec and minute later whem I re-installed 
chrony, the time on that printer was around 20 hours stale. By about a 
minute after chrony started, which the install did, time was synchronized.


And still is. Somehow, it resurrected the customized
/etc/chrony/chrony.conf which pointed it at this machines ntpsec server. 
So I didn't have to re-invent that wheel. It just Worked. Memory in the 
u-sd card? IDK.


I have NDI how to extract chrony's logs from journalctl.


I tried installing chrony in 2017 (jessie), and it appeared unable
to slew the clock five seconds in two days of interrupted running.

Cheers,
David.


Thank you David, take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 02:33:05PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> On Thursday 07 March 2024 09:02:44 am Teemu Likonen wrote:
> > systemctl status systemd-timesyncd.service
> 
> This got me some interesting results:
> 
> ● systemd-timesyncd.service - Network Time Synchronization
>Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service; enabled; 
> vendor preset: enabled)
>   Drop-In: /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d
>└─disable-with-time-daemon.conf
>Active: inactive (dead)
> Condition: start condition failed at Wed 2024-02-14 16:17:31 EST; 3 weeks 0 
> days ago
>└─ ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/VBoxService was not met
>  Docs: man:systemd-timesyncd.service(8)
> 
> Hmm.

Are you running that on a virtualbox client, or a virtualbox host?

In any case, you might find it interesting to read the unit file in
question ("systemctl cat systemd-timesyncd.service").  It looks like
you've got one of the slightly older kind, where the service is always
installed, but is prevented from running if any of several different
programs is found.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Dan Ritter]

Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote: 
> I don't ordinarily shut this machine down for the most part.  Every once in a 
> while all of my swap partition gets filled up,  and then there's this 
> continuous hard drive activity that I'm assuming is what they mean by 
> "thrashing". The only option at that point is to get its attention with the 
> power switch.  And then I need to go through a whole routing with bringing up 
> what I had going,  including re-starting virtualbox and the stuff that runs 
> in it,  etc.  If I'm lucky then I can get back the windows I had going 
> before,  sometimes I'm not so lucky.  A system monitor I run on desktop 4 
> always comes up,  but on the wrong desktop and I have to move it.
> 
> The "eat all available memory" culprit seems to be firefox.  I just need to 
> look at that system monitor every once in a while and when things start 
> getting excessive shut firefox down and restart it.  Then I don't have the 
> problem...

There's a kernel feature called the OOM-killer (out of memory)
which is supposed to detect when you are running out of memory
and select a process to kill.

Did you turn it off? It would be a setting in /etc/sysctl.conf
or /etc/sysctl.d/*

If not, perhaps you have an excessive amount of slow swap for it to be happy?

 
> I'm not sure if I have ntp or something else running here.  (Looking...)  I 
> don't see it in my process list.

Other likely candidates are systemd-timesync and chrony.

-dsr-

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Thursday 07 March 2024 09:02:44 am Teemu Likonen wrote:
> systemctl status systemd-timesyncd.service

This got me some interesting results:

● systemd-timesyncd.service - Network Time Synchronization
   Loaded: loaded (/lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service; enabled; 
vendor preset: enabled)
  Drop-In: /lib/systemd/system/systemd-timesyncd.service.d
   └─disable-with-time-daemon.conf
   Active: inactive (dead)
Condition: start condition failed at Wed 2024-02-14 16:17:31 EST; 3 weeks 0 
days ago
   └─ ConditionFileIsExecutable=!/usr/sbin/VBoxService was not met
 Docs: man:systemd-timesyncd.service(8)

Hmm.

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Wednesday 06 March 2024 12:42:12 pm Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?
> 
> "hwclock -w" to copy the system clock to the hardware clock (RTC).  This
> should also be done during shutdown, but it doesn't hurt to do it now.
 
That seemed to do what I needed.

I don't ordinarily shut this machine down for the most part.  Every once in a 
while all of my swap partition gets filled up,  and then there's this 
continuous hard drive activity that I'm assuming is what they mean by 
"thrashing". The only option at that point is to get its attention with the 
power switch.  And then I need to go through a whole routing with bringing up 
what I had going,  including re-starting virtualbox and the stuff that runs in 
it,  etc.  If I'm lucky then I can get back the windows I had going before,  
sometimes I'm not so lucky.  A system monitor I run on desktop 4 always comes 
up,  but on the wrong desktop and I have to move it.

The "eat all available memory" culprit seems to be firefox.  I just need to 
look at that system monitor every once in a while and when things start getting 
excessive shut firefox down and restart it.  Then I don't have the problem...

I'm not sure if I have ntp or something else running here.  (Looking...)  I 
don't see it in my process list.


-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: strange time problem with bullseye/buster

[David Wright]

On Thu 07 Mar 2024 at 11:29:47 (-0500), gene heskett wrote:
> On 3/7/24 10:59, Greg Wooledge wrote:

> > You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
> > removed.
> > 
> 
> > In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
> > systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
> > or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
> > had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
> > and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
> > was found.
> > 
> > I don't remember which version did which thing.
> > 
> > And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
> > off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.
> > 
> and because the printer is arm stuff, its old armbian buster vintage.
> mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ sudo apt purge systemd-timesyncd
> Reading package lists... Done
> Building dependency tree
> Reading state information... Done
> Package 'systemd-timesyncd' is not installed, so not removed
> 0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
> mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
> yet timedatectl is still there and shows:
> mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ timedatectl
>Local time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:15:53 EST
>Universal time: Thu 2024-03-07 16:15:53 UTC
>  RTC time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:04:39
> Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
> System clock synchronized: no
>   NTP service: inactive
>   RTC in local TZ: no
> mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
> And the local time shown above is correct to the second.

Debian's buster's systemd (241) has timesyncd built-in, so you may
find that   ls -l /lib/systemd/systemd-timesyncd still finds it.

The output from timedatectl is worrying. I would monitor chrony and
check its logs to see if it it's doing anything. After all, you had
ntpsec running until a "moment" ago, so you'd hardly expect the clock
to be wrong by now.

I tried installing chrony in 2017 (jessie), and it appeared unable
to slew the clock five seconds in two days of interrupted running.

Cheers,
David.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 11:18, Jeffrey Walton wrote:

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 8:44 AM  wrote:


On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:31:16AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

[...]
Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot? [...]

I'll have to leave this to others more fluent in systemd-ish.


Mask the systemd-timesyncd service. Masking is the service a permanent effect.


it appears its not installed. It can't be found to purge it. That would 
explain why it didn't work.


If you just stop or disable the service, then the service will either
be started on the next reboot, or it can be manually started. Since
you want to permanently disable the service, you have to mask it.

Jeff
.

Thanks Jeff.
Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 10:59, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:31:16AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

So I purged ntpsec and re-installed chrony which I had done once before with
no luck but this time timedatectl was stopped and it worked!

Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot?


Which version of Debian is this?  I'm guessing it's fairly recent,
because ntpsec is fairly recent.

In the most recent version or two, systemd-timesyncd is a separate
package, and it cannot coexist with chrony (they both provide the
"time-daemon" virtual package).  So, if this is Debian 12 (maybe 11
also, dunno about older), then when you installed either ntpsec or
chrony, it should have removed the systemd-timesyncd package.

You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
removed.




In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
was found.

I don't remember which version did which thing.

And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.

.

and because the printer is arm stuff, its old armbian buster vintage.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ sudo apt purge systemd-timesyncd
Reading package lists... Done
Building dependency tree
Reading state information... Done
Package 'systemd-timesyncd' is not installed, so not removed
0 upgraded, 0 newly installed, 0 to remove and 2 not upgraded.
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
yet timedatectl is still there and shows:
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$ timedatectl
   Local time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:15:53 EST
   Universal time: Thu 2024-03-07 16:15:53 UTC
 RTC time: Thu 2024-03-07 11:04:39
Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
System clock synchronized: no
  NTP service: inactive
  RTC in local TZ: no
mks@mkspi:/etc/init.d$
And the local time shown above is correct to the second.

Thanks Greg, take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Thu, Mar 7, 2024 at 8:44 AM  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:31:16AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
>
> [...]
> Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot? [...]
>
> I'll have to leave this to others more fluent in systemd-ish.

Mask the systemd-timesyncd service. Masking is the service a permanent effect.

If you just stop or disable the service, then the service will either
be started on the next reboot, or it can be manually started. Since
you want to permanently disable the service, you have to mask it.

Jeff

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:31:16AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> So I purged ntpsec and re-installed chrony which I had done once before with
> no luck but this time timedatectl was stopped and it worked!
> 
> Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot?

Which version of Debian is this?  I'm guessing it's fairly recent,
because ntpsec is fairly recent.

In the most recent version or two, systemd-timesyncd is a separate
package, and it cannot coexist with chrony (they both provide the
"time-daemon" virtual package).  So, if this is Debian 12 (maybe 11
also, dunno about older), then when you installed either ntpsec or
chrony, it should have removed the systemd-timesyncd package.

You should be able to verify that the systemd-timesyncd package is
removed.

In some older versions of Debian, systemd-timesyncd was part of the
systemd package, and was always installed, even if you installed ntp
or chrony.  In these versions, the systemd unit file for timesync
had checks for the existence of the binaries belonging to ntp, chrony
and openntpd, and would prevent timesync from running if any of those
was found.

I don't remember which version did which thing.

And of course, if you are not actually running Debian, then all bets are
off.  You're on your own with Armbian, Raspbian, etc.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2024-03-07 08:31:16-0500, gene heskett wrote:

> So I purged ntpsec and re-installed chrony which I had done once before 
> with no luck but this time timedatectl was stopped and it worked!
>
> Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot? systemd's
> docs are positively opaque about that even if they do go on for
> megabytes.

"timedatectl" is a command for configuring and showing various time
settings. You probably mean: how to stop Systemd's NTP service. See "man
timedatectl" or "timedatectl -h". Look for subcommand "set-ntp".

sudo timedatectl set-ntp false

See the current state with just "timedatectl" command. What happens
behind the surface is enabling/disabling service
systemd-timesyncd.service. You can check its status:

systemctl status systemd-timesyncd.service

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/
// OpenPGP: 6965F03973F0D4CA22B9410F0F2CAE0E07608462


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Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[tomas]

On Thu, Mar 07, 2024 at 08:31:16AM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

[...]

> So I purged ntpsec and re-installed chrony which I had done once before with
> no luck but this time timedatectl was stopped and it worked!

great :-)

> Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot? [...]

I'll have to leave this to others more fluent in systemd-ish.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/7/24 00:22, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 08:06:15PM -0600, John Hasler wrote:

Look at the chronyd settime command and the chrony.conf makestep
directive.  These are intended for your situation.


This from man(8) ntpd:

  -g, --panicgate
Allow the first adjustment to be Big.  This option may appear an
unlimited number of times.

Normally, ntpd exits with a message to the system log if the off‐
set exceeds the panic threshold, which is 1000 s by default. This
option allows the time to be set to any value without restric‐
tion; however, this can happen only once. If the threshold is ex‐
ceeded after that, ntpd will exit with a message to the system
log. This option can be used with the -q and -x options.  See the
tinker configuration file directive for other options.

  -G, --force-step-once
Step any initial offset correction..
[...]

Cheers


So I purged ntpsec and re-installed chrony which I had done once before 
with no luck but this time timedatectl was stopped and it worked!


Now, how do I assure timedatectl stays stopped on a reboot? systemd's 
docs are positively opaque about that even if they do go on for 
megabytes. Surprisingly the chrony.conf setting to use my own server 
setup on this machine making me a level 2 ntp server, magically re-appeared.


Seems like it should have a disable option to match the enable but 
playing 50 monkeys didn't find it.


Thanks take care & stay well Tomas.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[tomas]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 09:36:56PM -0500, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 08:33:37PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> > no place in the ntpsec docs, nor the chrony docs
> > does it show the ability to slam the current time into the SW clock on these
> > arm systems at bootup's first access time.
> 
> Traditionally, this was done by the ntpdate command, which was in the
> ntpdate package.

[...]

>-g, --panicgate

[...]

Heh. Great minds read alike :-)

But thanks for the historical background, which I didn't know.

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[tomas]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 08:06:15PM -0600, John Hasler wrote:
> Look at the chronyd settime command and the chrony.conf makestep
> directive.  These are intended for your situation.

This from man(8) ntpd:

 -g, --panicgate
   Allow the first adjustment to be Big.  This option may appear an
   unlimited number of times.

   Normally, ntpd exits with a message to the system log if the off‐
   set exceeds the panic threshold, which is 1000 s by default. This
   option allows the time to be set to any value without restric‐
   tion; however, this can happen only once. If the threshold is ex‐
   ceeded after that, ntpd will exit with a message to the system
   log. This option can be used with the -q and -x options.  See the
   tinker configuration file directive for other options.

 -G, --force-step-once
   Step any initial offset correction..
   [...]

Cheers
-- 
t


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Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 08:33:37PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> no place in the ntpsec docs, nor the chrony docs
> does it show the ability to slam the current time into the SW clock on these
> arm systems at bootup's first access time.

Traditionally, this was done by the ntpdate command, which was in the
ntpdate package.

On older Debian releases, you would install both of these (ntp and
ntpdate); ntpdate would run first, slamming the clock, and then ntp
would run second, to keep the clock in sync.

A few releases ago, ntpdate was deprecated, and its slamming functionality
was absorbed into the ntp package, as long as ntp is started with the -g
option.

   -g, --panicgate
   Allow the first adjustment to be big. This option may appear an
   unlimited number of times.

   Normally, ntpd exits with a message to the system log if the offset
   exceeds the panic threshold, which is 1000 s by default. This
   option allows the time to be set to any value without restriction;
   however, this can happen only once. If the threshold is exceeded
   after that, ntpd will exit with a message to the system log. This
   option can be used with the -q and -x options. See the tinker
   configuration file directive for other options.

With ntpsec replacing ntp in Debian 12, the same options apply.  By default,
Debian runs ntpsec with the -g option, to allow the clock to be slammed
at boot time.

hobbit:~$ ps -ef | grep ntpd
ntpsec   854   1  0 Feb17 ?00:01:17 /usr/sbin/ntpd -p 
/run/ntpd.pid -c /etc/ntpsec/ntp.conf -g -N -u ntpsec:ntpsec
greg  3947371138  0 21:34 pts/000:00:00 grep ntpd

Your claims that "no place in the ntpsec docs ... show the ability to
slam the current time" are simply false.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[John Hasler]

Look at the chronyd settime command and the chrony.conf makestep
directive.  These are intended for your situation.
-- 
John Hasler 
j...@sugarbit.com
Elmwood, WI USA

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/6/24 18:02, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 05:56:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:

On 3/6/24 12:42, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 12:31:46PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

  sudo timedatectl set-ntp true


But *don't* do that if you're using some other NTP program instead of
systemd-timesyncd.



Are you saying that both chrony and ntpsec, which are fully ntp
client/server ack the docs are worthless to timedatectl?


I'm saying "don't turn on systemd's NTP thing if you're using a different
NTP thing".

Roy's instructions failed to take into account that many of us are
already using a different NTP implementation, besides systemd's.


I can turn either off, but no place in the ntpsec docs, nor the chrony 
docs does it show the ability to slam the current time into the SW clock 
on these arm systems at bootup's first access time.  And the normal 
correction is maybe a second an hour so it its been turned off for a 
week, its another week out of time when turned back on. The whole thing 
never considered the no hwclock situation that exists in 99% of the arm 
world. I was hoping timedatectl had that ability but I see it says you 
must be synched first. The rpis's can do it, whats the secret recipe?


Thank Greg, take care & stay well.
Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 05:56:29PM -0500, gene heskett wrote:
> On 3/6/24 12:42, Greg Wooledge wrote:
> > On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 12:31:46PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> > >  sudo timedatectl set-ntp true
> > 
> > But *don't* do that if you're using some other NTP program instead of
> > systemd-timesyncd.

> Are you saying that both chrony and ntpsec, which are fully ntp
> client/server ack the docs are worthless to timedatectl?

I'm saying "don't turn on systemd's NTP thing if you're using a different
NTP thing".

Roy's instructions failed to take into account that many of us are
already using a different NTP implementation, besides systemd's.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[gene heskett]

On 3/6/24 12:42, Greg Wooledge wrote:

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 12:31:46PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

Mine shows:

   Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 12:09:44 EST
   Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:09:44 UTC
 RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:20:53
Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
  Network time on: yes
NTP synchronized: no
  RTC in local TZ: no

How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?


"hwclock -w" to copy the system clock to the hardware clock (RTC).  This
should also be done during shutdown, but it doesn't hurt to do it now.


On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 07:36:11PM +0200, Teemu Likonen wrote:

To get operating system's clock have accurate time it needs to be
synchronized with network time servers via network time protocol (NTP).
Systemd has that feature. Turn in on with

 sudo timedatectl set-ntp true


But *don't* do that if you're using some other NTP program instead of
systemd-timesyncd.  Unfortunately, timedatectl does not know about other
NTP programs, and won't report which one you're using.  You'll have
to find that out yourself


Are you saying that both chrony and ntpsec, which are fully ntp 
client/server ack the docs are worthless to timedatectl?


I have a quite good 3d printer, but its running armbian buster, its out 
of synch by days despite ntpsec running and I can see it access my own 
level 2 server but the timedate never synchronizes. I need to know how 
to setup timedatectl to slam the ntp time into the system clock on first 
access at bootup. That would fix a lot of bogus times reported by 
fluidd, the printers web based gui front end.


Thanks Greg. Take care & stay well.

Cheers, Gene Heskett, CET.
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author, 1940)
If we desire respect for the law, we must first make the law respectable.
 - Louis D. Brandeis

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[hlyg]

On 3/6/24 13:37, Teemu Likonen wrote:

It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
"timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:

 $ timedatectl
Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
 Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
 System clock synchronized: yes
   NTP service: active
   RTC in local TZ: no

See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.



Thank Likonen, timedatectl is useful, ntp isn't installed

System clock synchronized: no NTP service: n/a RTC in local TZ: no

perhaps it's because i didn't install a set of standard tools during 
deb11 installation

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[David Wright]

On Wed 06 Mar 2024 at 07:07:36 (-0500), Greg Wooledge wrote:
> On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 07:37:09AM +0200, Teemu Likonen wrote:
> > It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
> > "timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
> > settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:
> > 
> > $ timedatectl
> >Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
> >Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
> >  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
> > Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
> > System clock synchronized: yes
> >   NTP service: active
> >   RTC in local TZ: no
> > 
> > See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.
> 
> This is a great hint, but be warned that it doesn't quite know about
> NTP services other than systemd-timesyncd.  If you're running ntpsec,
> for example, it'll simply say:
> 
> System clock synchronized: yes
>   NTP service: n/a

Note also that it only shows the system's time zone, and not
necessarily that of the user running it:

$ timedatectl ; echo ; date
   Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 19:18:58 UTC
   Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 19:18:58 UTC
 RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 19:18:58
Time zone: Etc/UTC (UTC, +)
System clock synchronized: yes
  NTP service: active
  RTC in local TZ: no

Wed Mar  6 13:18:58 CST 2024
$ 

Cheers,
David.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 7:08 AM Greg Wooledge  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 07:37:09AM +0200, Teemu Likonen wrote:
> > It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
> > "timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
> > settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:
> >
> > $ timedatectl
> >Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
> >Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
> >  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
> > Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
> > System clock synchronized: yes
> >   NTP service: active
> >   RTC in local TZ: no
> >
> > See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.
>
> This is a great hint, but be warned that it doesn't quite know about
> NTP services other than systemd-timesyncd.  If you're running ntpsec,
> for example, it'll simply say:
>
> System clock synchronized: yes
>   NTP service: n/a

This may help in the future:
.

Jeff

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Wed, Mar 6, 2024 at 12:13 PM Roy J. Tellason, Sr.  wrote:
>
> On Wednesday 06 March 2024 12:37:09 am Teemu Likonen wrote:
> > * 2024-03-06 02:47:06+0800, hlyg wrote:
> >
> > > my newly-installed deb11 for amd64 shows wrong time,  it lags behind
> > > correct time by 8 hours though difference between universal and local
> > > is ok.
> >
> > It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
> > "timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
> > settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:
> >
> > $ timedatectl
> >Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
> >Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
> >  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
> > Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
> > System clock synchronized: yes
> >   NTP service: active
> >   RTC in local TZ: no
> >
> > See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.
> >
>
> Mine shows:
>
>   Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 12:09:44 EST
>   Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:09:44 UTC
> RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:20:53
>Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
>  Network time on: yes
> NTP synchronized: no
>  RTC in local TZ: no
>
> How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?  I don't reboot this 
> often,  but when I do the time displayed on the onscreen clock is typically 
> off by several minutes.

Install ntp, ntpsec or systemd-timesyncd. Once installed and time is
sync'd, run 'sudo hwclock -w'.

Also see  and
.

Jeff

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 12:31:46PM -0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:
> Mine shows:
> 
>   Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 12:09:44 EST
>   Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:09:44 UTC
> RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:20:53
>Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
>  Network time on: yes
> NTP synchronized: no
>  RTC in local TZ: no
> 
> How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?

"hwclock -w" to copy the system clock to the hardware clock (RTC).  This
should also be done during shutdown, but it doesn't hurt to do it now.


On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 07:36:11PM +0200, Teemu Likonen wrote:
> To get operating system's clock have accurate time it needs to be
> synchronized with network time servers via network time protocol (NTP).
> Systemd has that feature. Turn in on with
> 
> sudo timedatectl set-ntp true

But *don't* do that if you're using some other NTP program instead of
systemd-timesyncd.  Unfortunately, timedatectl does not know about other
NTP programs, and won't report which one you're using.  You'll have
to find that out yourself.

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2024-03-06 12:31:46-0500, Roy J. Tellason, Sr. wrote:

>   Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 12:09:44 EST
>   Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:09:44 UTC
> RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:20:53
>Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
>  Network time on: yes
> NTP synchronized: no
>  RTC in local TZ: no
>
> How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time? I don't reboot this
> often, but when I do the time displayed on the onscreen clock is
> typically off by several minutes.

RTC is the clock on computer's motherboard. It has battery and it can
keep time when the computer is off. That's its purpose. When computer is
shut down the operating system saves its time to RTC. When computer is
booted operating system reads RTC time and sets operating system's
clock. The time is not accurate but at very least it's something instead
of random time. When operating system is running RTC does not matter
anymore.

To get operating system's clock have accurate time it needs to be
synchronized with network time servers via network time protocol (NTP).
Systemd has that feature. Turn in on with

sudo timedatectl set-ntp true

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/
// OpenPGP: 6965F03973F0D4CA22B9410F0F2CAE0E07608462


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Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Roy J. Tellason, Sr.]

On Wednesday 06 March 2024 12:37:09 am Teemu Likonen wrote:
> * 2024-03-06 02:47:06+0800, hlyg wrote:
> 
> > my newly-installed deb11 for amd64 shows wrong time,  it lags behind
> > correct time by 8 hours though difference between universal and local
> > is ok.
> 
> It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
> "timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
> settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:
> 
> $ timedatectl
>Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
>Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
>  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
> Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
> System clock synchronized: yes
>   NTP service: active
>   RTC in local TZ: no
> 
> See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.
> 

Mine shows:

  Local time: Wed 2024-03-06 12:09:44 EST
  Universal time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:09:44 UTC
RTC time: Wed 2024-03-06 17:20:53
   Time zone: America/New_York (EST, -0500)
 Network time on: yes
NTP synchronized: no
 RTC in local TZ: no

How do I get the RTC to agree with the right time?  I don't reboot this often,  
but when I do the time displayed on the onscreen clock is typically off by 
several minutes.

-- 
Member of the toughest, meanest, deadliest, most unrelenting -- and
ablest -- form of life in this section of space,  a critter that can
be killed but can't be tamed.  --Robert A. Heinlein, "The Puppet Masters"
-
Information is more dangerous than cannon to a society ruled by lies. --James 
M Dakin

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 07:37:09AM +0200, Teemu Likonen wrote:
> It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
> "timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
> settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:
> 
> $ timedatectl
>Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
>Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
>  RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
> Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
> System clock synchronized: yes
>   NTP service: active
>   RTC in local TZ: no
> 
> See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.

This is a great hint, but be warned that it doesn't quite know about
NTP services other than systemd-timesyncd.  If you're running ntpsec,
for example, it'll simply say:

System clock synchronized: yes
  NTP service: n/a

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Teemu Likonen]

* 2024-03-06 02:47:06+0800, hlyg wrote:

> my newly-installed deb11 for amd64 shows wrong time,  it lags behind
> correct time by 8 hours though difference between universal and local
> is ok.

It seems that you have solved the problem but here is another hint.
"timedatectl" is a good high-level tool for querying and adjusting time
settings. Without command-line arguments it prints a lot of useful info:

$ timedatectl
   Local time: ke 2024-03-06 07:33:00 EET
   Universal time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00 UTC
 RTC time: ke 2024-03-06 05:33:00
Time zone: Europe/Helsinki (EET, +0200)
System clock synchronized: yes
  NTP service: active
  RTC in local TZ: no

See "timedatectl -h" or manual page for more info.

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen - .-.. https://www.iki.fi/tlikonen/
// OpenPGP: 6965F03973F0D4CA22B9410F0F2CAE0E07608462


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Description: PGP signature

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Jeffrey Walton]

On Tue, Mar 5, 2024 at 7:07 PM hlyg  wrote:
>
>  [...]
>
> Windows shall not cause problem, i rarely use Windows
>
> i don't know if ntp is running, what's default configuration by deb11
> amd64 installer?

If you are dual booting Linux and Windows, then see
.

Jeff

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[hlyg]

Thank Greg Wooledge! it's solved with your help

i reboot to enter bios, it use UTC

then i change 3rd line of /etc/adjtime to UTC,  reboot to take effect, 
time is shown correctly now


i am timezone 0800, 8 hours ahead of GMT

both /etc/localtime points to same place

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Mar 05, 2024 at 08:28:49PM +0800, hlyg wrote:
> Thank Greg Wooledge!
> 
> zhou@debian:~$ date
> Wed 06 Mar 2024 04:07:02 AM CST
> zhou@debian:~$ date -u
> Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:07:07 PM UTC
> 
> above is from deb11 for i386, it's correct

OK, and your time zone is 20 hours ahead of UTC, it appears.

> zhou@debian:~$ date
> Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:13:23 PM CST
> zhou@debian:~$ date -u
> Tue 05 Mar 2024 12:13:27 PM UTC
> 
> above is from deb11 for amd64, it's wrong, utc lag behind by 4 hours

Now this is odd-looking.  In this instance, your time zone is 4 hours
*behind* UTC instead of 20 hours ahead.  Which makes it off by exactly
one whole day.

Also, it *looks* like your i386 instance wrote UTC to the system clock,
and then your amd64 instance read that as local time.  You can see that
the 8:07:07 PM from the first instance is quite close to the 8:13:23 PM
from the second.

> Windows shall not cause problem, i rarely use Windows

The question isn't how often you use it, but whether you booted it in
between the two instances above.  Probably not, I suppose.

> i don't know if ntp is running, what's default configuration by deb11 amd64
> installer?

There is no "default".  Or rather, there are lots of defaults.  It's not
useful to ask about defaults.  Ask about what you have.

These are the packages that provide time-daemon on Debian 11:

systemd-timesyncd
openntpd
ntp
chrony

If one of those is installed and running, it should set your clock from
Internet sources (assuming it's configured reasonably, and you have
Internet access).

But more importantly, you need to check whether your Debian instances are
using local time or UTC for the real time clock, because it *looks* like
the i386 one is using UTC and the amd64 is not.

Check your /etc/adjtime files.

I'm also extremely curious why two different systems report "CST" with
two wildly different offsets from UTC.  What does
"ls -ld /etc/localtime" give on your systems?  Are they both the same?

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[hlyg]

On 3/5/24 20:28, hlyg wrote:

Thank Greg Wooledge!

zhou@debian:~$ date
Wed 06 Mar 2024 04:07:02 AM CST
zhou@debian:~$ date -u
Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:07:07 PM UTC

above is from deb11 for i386, it's correct

zhou@debian:~$ date
Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:13:23 PM CST
zhou@debian:~$ date -u
Tue 05 Mar 2024 12:13:27 PM UTC

above is from deb11 for amd64, it's wrong, utc lag behind by 4 hours



Correction: utc is faster than correct by 4 hours

difference in minutes and seconds shall be neglected, because i run them 
in deb11 for i386, then reboot to amd64 and run them after a few minutes


these days i run only deb11 for i386 and amd64 on this machine, other OS 
shall not cause problem

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[hlyg]

Thank Greg Wooledge!

zhou@debian:~$ date
Wed 06 Mar 2024 04:07:02 AM CST
zhou@debian:~$ date -u
Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:07:07 PM UTC

above is from deb11 for i386, it's correct

zhou@debian:~$ date
Tue 05 Mar 2024 08:13:23 PM CST
zhou@debian:~$ date -u
Tue 05 Mar 2024 12:13:27 PM UTC

above is from deb11 for amd64, it's wrong, utc lag behind by 4 hours

Windows shall not cause problem, i rarely use Windows

i don't know if ntp is running, what's default configuration by deb11 
amd64 installer?

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Charles Curley]

On Wed, 6 Mar 2024 02:47:06 +0800
hlyg  wrote:

> wifi connection is good, i suppose both correct time with server 
> automatically

Not necessarily. You should install an NTP client if you haven't
already. I suggest systemd-timesyncd.

-- 
Does anybody read signatures any more?

https://charlescurley.com
https://charlescurley.com/blog/

Re: strange time problem with bullseye

[Greg Wooledge]

On Wed, Mar 06, 2024 at 02:47:06AM +0800, hlyg wrote:
> my newly-installed deb11 for amd64 shows wrong time,  it lags behind correct
> time by 8 hours though difference between universal and local is ok.

Run the commands "date" and "date -u" and show us the output.

Then tell us what you think the output should have been.

> but my deb11 for i386 on same machine shows correct time. i installed it
> long time ago

You have more than one operating system on this machine, then.  Are these
two Debian instances the *only* systems, or are there others?  Is Windows
one of them?

When multi-booting, it's important that all of the operating systems on
the machine agree on whether the real time clock is set to UTC, or to
local time.  For a long time, the conventional approach was to use local
time if you had to multi-boot with Windows (because Windows insisted on
it), or UTC if you only boot Linux-based systems.  I don't know how
Windows deals with the real time clock in modern times.

For comparison, please run "date" and "date -u" on the "deb11 for i386"
instance.

In particular, you're looking to see whether the "date -u" command
reports correct UTC time, and you're looking for what time zone the "date"
command uses.

If your UTC time is right but your time zone is wrong, then you need to
change your time zone.  On Debian, you do this by running
"dpkg-reconfigure tzdata".

If your UTC time is wrong, but it's off by exactly the amount that your
local time differs from UTC, then it's possible that one or more of your
multi-boot operating systems disagree on whether the real time clock is
set to UTC or local time.  Pick one, and then configure all of your
operating systems to use that.

If your UTC time is just wrong, with no obvious reason for it, then the
next question is whether you're running NTP.  And if not, why not (e.g.
this machine is on an isolated network or something).  Most computers
should be using NTP (Debian offers several choices for this), which will
keep the system clock reasonably correct, unless the hardware is failing.

strange time problem with bullseye

[hlyg]

my newly-installed deb11 for amd64 shows wrong time,  it lags behind 
correct time by 8 hours though difference between universal and local is 
ok.


i am normal user, i install only from main of deb11 plus wifi adapter 
firmware, though i don't install security update. i don't know where i 
can go wrong


but my deb11 for i386 on same machine shows correct time. i installed it 
long time ago


wifi connection is good, i suppose both correct time with server 
automatically

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[tomas]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 01:51:41PM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:

[...]

> Originally it did only put out text in an xterm, but then i shamelessly
> exploited code from the exploitation chain xpppload <- xisdnload <- xload
> to give it a histogram in ain additional separate window.

Now this one beats my weirdness by a stretch :-)

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[tomas]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 07:50:54AM -0400, The Wanderer wrote:
> On 2023-10-22 at 07:24, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> 
> > I better not tell. My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm
> > which also shows my battery status.
> 
> Ooo, that sounds interesting. I don't currently have a laptop, so the
> battery-status part wouldn't currently apply, but this sounds like
> something I might like to try when that changes; any chance of sharing
> the specific details?

Glad to oblige.

The date part is the smallest, down there in the lower right
corner :-)


tomas@trotzki:~$ cat ~/bin/bat
#!/bin/bash
# Notes:
# for colors:
# tput setaf 1 ; tput bold ; echo -n 123 ; tput setaf 7 ; tput sgr0 ; echo 456
# cf tput(1) terminfo(5)
# do continuous mode with watch -c, possibly t

BAT='/sys/class/power_supply/BAT0'
AC='/sys/class/power_supply/AC'
FULL=$(cat $BAT/energy_full)
NOW=$(cat $BAT/energy_now)
case $(cat $AC/online) in
  0) online="BAT" ;;
  1) online="AC " ;;
  *) online="???" ;;
esac
echo -ne "$online " ; dc -e "5k $NOW $FULL / p" ; date +"%F%a%n  %T"


The fun part is convincing fvwm  to do its thing:


# Style for bat, clock:
Style bat !Borders,!Handles,!Title

# NOTES if text too big, nothing to be seen;
#   watch -t: no title;
#   the -geometry is there to place the window off screen while it's
#   not yet swallowed.
#   Can we change colors? Yeah: watch lets 'em through with option -c
*FvwmButtons: (2x1, Frame 2, \
  Swallow bat "Exec exec xterm -class bat -bg black -fg white \
  -geometry +5000+5000 \
  -fn 'xft:DejaVu Sans Mono Book:pixelsize=7' \
  -e watch -tn 10 bat" )


Enjoy :)

I've been mulling around whether to switch to Tcl/Tk: I like the
unobtrusiveness of the thing, but some more noise when the battery
is on its last legs would be desirable :-)

> > But I'm weird.
> 
> I literally used to go by "Weird" as a nickname, though (sadly?) it
> never became as commonly used as with Al. Weird doesn't bother me at
> all.

A good feeling not to be alone around here ;-)

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[The Wanderer]

On 2023-10-22 at 07:24, to...@tuxteam.de wrote:

> I better not tell. My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm
> which also shows my battery status.

Ooo, that sounds interesting. I don't currently have a laptop, so the
battery-status part wouldn't currently apply, but this sounds like
something I might like to try when that changes; any chance of sharing
the specific details?

> But I'm weird.

I literally used to go by "Weird" as a nickname, though (sadly?) it
never became as commonly used as with Al. Weird doesn't bother me at
all.

-- 
   The Wanderer

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one
persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all
progress depends on the unreasonable man. -- George Bernard Shaw



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

to...@tuxteam.de wrote:
> My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm which
> also shows my battery status.

My digital clock with date display is a C program which mainly watches the
network traffic. It even has an own date format ("A0" = 2000, now is "C3")
which has an odd history beginning in 1987, when nobody expected to live
to see year 2000.
  http://scdbackup.webframe.org/pppoem

Originally it did only put out text in an xterm, but then i shamelessly
exploited code from the exploitation chain xpppload <- xisdnload <- xload
to give it a histogram in ain additional separate window.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[tomas]

On Sun, Oct 22, 2023 at 11:16:25AM +0200, Thomas Schmitt wrote:
> Hi,
> 
> Charlie wrote:
> > I removed the clock from the
> > FVWM task bar and Gkrellm now dis[pays the right time. So a fix
> > of sorts with which I can live.
> 
> Congrats. :))
> 
> 
> > being a bit long in
> > the tooth to start relearning another window manager.
> 
> I'm using fvwm since the last century. It's configured by a ~/.fvwm2rc
> which is at least 20 years old with minor changes to adapt to changed
> paths and to avoid some unwanted behavior from 10 years ago.

I came back to it some time last century, after a very instructive
travel which encompassed Gnome (Metacity), Xfce, Awesome and other
exotica (olwm, GWM...)

> My clock is FvwmXclock. It's an analog-style 12 hours without date
> display.

I better not tell. My clock is a... shell script in a tiny Xterm which
also shows my battery status.

But I'm weird.

> Have a nice day :)

Likewise :)

Cheers
-- 
t


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Charlie wrote:
> I removed the clock from the
> FVWM task bar and Gkrellm now dis[pays the right time. So a fix
> of sorts with which I can live.

Congrats. :))


> being a bit long in
> the tooth to start relearning another window manager.

I'm using fvwm since the last century. It's configured by a ~/.fvwm2rc
which is at least 20 years old with minor changes to adapt to changed
paths and to avoid some unwanted behavior from 10 years ago.

My clock is FvwmXclock. It's an analog-style 12 hours without date
display.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[Charlie]

On Sun, 22 Oct 2023 10:13:59 +0200
"Thomas Schmitt"  wrote:

> Hi,
> 
> Charlie wrote:
> > The date on that system is one day in advance and one hour late. Not
> > terrible,
> > However after a short period 100% of one of the CPU cores is used,
> > noisy running, and top -c shows this as the user:
> > /usr/libexe/fvwm2/2.7.0/FvwmScript 17 4 none 0 8 FvwmScript
> > DateTime  
> 
> Looking at
>   
> https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fvwmorg/fvwm3/main/default-config/FvwmScript-DateTime
> and reading "man FvwmScript" i'd say that the promised 1-second
> waiting period of "PeriodicTasks" is heavily shortened by the clock
> peculiarity.
> 
> 
> > Managed to get date and time right with the ntp commands, set
> > location etc., on Gkrellm at least. But the fvwm clock had frozen
> > up and stopped.  
> 
> That's quite normal with periodic jobs when the system time gets
> changed backward. Possibly the clock would come back to life after
> the last shown time is reached again 23 hours later.
> 
> 
> > Then tried to set the date manually with hwclock but no joy.  
> 
> Please detail "no joy":
> Does hwclock show the future time after rebooting if you have set it
> to the right time before rebooting ?
> (Or is it only the system clock which hops ahead ?)
> Does hwclock get changed to the future time without rebooting ?
> 
> 
> > Removing FvwmScript which I can't open to edit removes the clock
> > from the FVWM taskbar,  
> 
> Does this solve the problem with the future time ?
> 
> 
> > And haven't tried to
> > but Gkrellm is now using the same time?  
> 
> (I don't understand this statement. Maybe it's important for finding
> the explanation.)
> 
> 
> > It would appear to be an fvwm problem  
> 
> The fast running CPU might be related to poor handling of weird times
> by FvwmScript.
> 
> But for now i doubt that fvwm sets the system date on its own.
> 
> 
> Have a nice day :)
> 
> Thomas
> 

Thank you for the link Thomas. I removed the clock from the
FVWM task bar and Gkrellm now dis[pays the right time. So a fix
of sorts with which I can live.

I was going to install fluxbox, which I used many years ago before FVWM
just to see what that clock said. Luckily didn't need to because the
clock came up correct. Dreaded doing that anyway, being a bit long in
the tooth to start relearning another window manager.

So thank you for your help.
Charlie

Re: Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[Thomas Schmitt]

Hi,

Charlie wrote:
> The date on that system is one day in advance and one hour late. Not
> terrible,
> However after a short period 100% of one of the CPU cores is used,
> noisy running, and top -c shows this as the user:
> /usr/libexe/fvwm2/2.7.0/FvwmScript 17 4 none 0 8 FvwmScript DateTime

Looking at
  
https://raw.githubusercontent.com/fvwmorg/fvwm3/main/default-config/FvwmScript-DateTime
and reading "man FvwmScript" i'd say that the promised 1-second waiting
period of "PeriodicTasks" is heavily shortened by the clock peculiarity.


> Managed to get date and time right with the ntp commands, set location
> etc., on Gkrellm at least. But the fvwm clock had frozen up and stopped.

That's quite normal with periodic jobs when the system time gets changed
backward. Possibly the clock would come back to life after the last shown
time is reached again 23 hours later.


> Then tried to set the date manually with hwclock but no joy.

Please detail "no joy":
Does hwclock show the future time after rebooting if you have set it to
the right time before rebooting ?
(Or is it only the system clock which hops ahead ?)
Does hwclock get changed to the future time without rebooting ?


> Removing FvwmScript which I can't open to edit removes the clock from
> the FVWM taskbar,

Does this solve the problem with the future time ?


> And haven't tried to
> but Gkrellm is now using the same time?

(I don't understand this statement. Maybe it's important for finding the
explanation.)


> It would appear to be an fvwm problem

The fast running CPU might be related to poor handling of weird times
by FvwmScript.

But for now i doubt that fvwm sets the system date on its own.


Have a nice day :)

Thomas

Date time problem bookworm, fvwm....

[Charlie]

Hello All,

Have a a Dell Vostro laptop: Bookworm up to date and
upgraded operating system to that state. Using FVWM window
manager.

The date on that system is one day in advance and one hour late. Not
terrible,

However after a short period 100% of one of the CPU cores is used,
noisy running, and top -c shows this as the user:
/usr/libexe/fvwm2/2.7.0/FvwmScript 17 4 none 0 8 FvwmScript DateTime

Managed to get date and time right with the ntp commands, set location
etc., on Gkrellm at least. But the fvwm clock had frozen up and stopped.

On reboot went back to a day ahead and an hour late even on Gkrellm.

Then tried to set the date manually with hwclock but no joy.

Removing FvwmScript which I can't open to edit removes the clock from
the FVWM taskbar, if that is what it is called. And haven't tried to
but Gkrellm is now using the same time?

It would appear to be an fvwm problem so I may be wise to move to
another window manager. However thought I would ask here first, in case
someone had the same problem or some clue to solve it.

TIA
Charlie

[disclaimer]

Any replies from me may be late because, can not afford to run my
generator all day.

[end disclaimer]
-- 
Registered Linux User:- 329524
***

I scarcely remember counting upon any Happiness—I look not for
it if it be not in the present hour—nothing startles me beyond
the Moment. The setting sun will always set me to rights—or if
a Sparrow come before my Window I take part in its existence
and pick about the Gravel. JOHN KEATS

***
Debian GNU/Linux - just the best way to create magic
___

Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[Brian]

On Sun 14 Oct 2018 at 21:29:57 +0300, Reco wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 07:18:12PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> 
> > At present there is an effort to update documentation for buster. Get
> > your bug report in. Don't delay!
> 
> I'll consider your suggestion.

Striking. Iron. Hot.

#911020.

-- 
Brian.

Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[Reco]

Hi.

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 07:18:12PM +0100, Brian wrote:
> On Sun 14 Oct 2018 at 17:21:43 +0300, Reco wrote:
> 
> > Hi.
> > 
> > On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 09:22:53AM -0400, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:
> > > On 10/14/18, to...@tuxteam.de  wrote:
> > > > On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 07:11:07AM +, Long Wind wrote:
> > > >> Thank tomas!
> > > >>
> > > >> i run "cat /etc/adjtime" in jessie and it says LOCALbut in stretch
> > > >> /etc/adjtime doesn't seem to exist
> > > >
> > > > I see. Perhaps this is the root of the problem. On the other
> > > > hand, perhaps, systemd is taking care of time in stretch by
> > > > default. In that case I can't help, since my knowledge of
> > > > systemd is minimal.
> > > 
> > > 
> > > I was going to bring this up yesterday, just couldn't rope the words
> > > in together. With debootstrap, one step the user manually does is
> > > this:
> > > 
> > > +++ QUOTE k/t https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/apds03.en.html 
> > > +++
> > 
> > That guide contains curious relics of the past that include, but aren't
> > limited to:
>  
> > 2) 'hostname' record in /etc/hosts - unneeded with libnss-myhostname.
> 
> The 127.0.1.1 line? It took us ages to get to this - something which
> works.

Yup, that very line. It's wrong either way:

a) In the absence of libnss-myhostname own hostname does not correspond
to ::1 (ipv6 loopback). Can lead to some interesting side effects.
b) In the presence of libnss-myhostname that line does not come into
play.
c) FQDN, anyone?


> > 3) '.local' domain at /etc/resolv.conf - a direct violation of RFC 6762.
> 
> An example - but a very bad one. Another good catch.
> 
> > 4) At controversial (to say the least) recommendation to use 'deb-src'
> > of Debian main suite without actually specifying 'deb'.
> 
> These are additional examples. Unless I am misunderstanding you, it's
> ok.

I cannot read :) It does clearly say that 'Debootstrap will have created
a very basic /etc/apt/sources.list that will allow installing additional
packages'.


> > 5) The /etc/adjtime configuration itself.
> > Systemd defaults to UTC - src/timedate/timedated.c in systemd source
> > tree.
> > If needed, one can use timedatectl(1) to produce perfectly valid
> > /etc/adjtime.
> 
> That's correct but I've never experienced the installer not giving a
> user an /etc/adjtime.

Not a Debian per se, but Raspbian lives happily without it.


> At present there is an effort to update documentation for buster. Get
> your bug report in. Don't delay!

I'll consider your suggestion.

Reco

Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[Brian]

On Sun 14 Oct 2018 at 17:21:43 +0300, Reco wrote:

>   Hi.
> 
> On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 09:22:53AM -0400, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:
> > On 10/14/18, to...@tuxteam.de  wrote:
> > > On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 07:11:07AM +, Long Wind wrote:
> > >> Thank tomas!
> > >>
> > >> i run "cat /etc/adjtime" in jessie and it says LOCALbut in stretch
> > >> /etc/adjtime doesn't seem to exist
> > >
> > > I see. Perhaps this is the root of the problem. On the other
> > > hand, perhaps, systemd is taking care of time in stretch by
> > > default. In that case I can't help, since my knowledge of
> > > systemd is minimal.
> > 
> > 
> > I was going to bring this up yesterday, just couldn't rope the words
> > in together. With debootstrap, one step the user manually does is
> > this:
> > 
> > +++ QUOTE k/t https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/apds03.en.html 
> > +++
> 
> That guide contains curious relics of the past that include, but aren't
> limited to:
> 
> 1) 'lo' interface in /etc/network/interfaces - unneeded even with
> stretch's ifupdown.

Good catch. It could be omitted or tagged as optional, as broadcast
and gateway are in the following stanza.
 
> 2) 'hostname' record in /etc/hosts - unneeded with libnss-myhostname.

The 127.0.1.1 line? It took us ages to get to this - something which
works.

> 3) '.local' domain at /etc/resolv.conf - a direct violation of RFC 6762.

An example - but a very bad one. Another good catch.

> 4) At controversial (to say the least) recommendation to use 'deb-src'
> of Debian main suite without actually specifying 'deb'.

These are additional examples. Unless I am misunderstanding you, it's
ok.

> 5) The /etc/adjtime configuration itself.
> Systemd defaults to UTC - src/timedate/timedated.c in systemd source
> tree.
> If needed, one can use timedatectl(1) to produce perfectly valid
> /etc/adjtime.

That's correct but I've never experienced the installer not giving a
user an /etc/adjtime.

At present there is an effort to update documentation for buster. Get
your bug report in. Don't delay!

-- 
Brian.

Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[Reco]

Hi.

On Sun, Oct 14, 2018 at 09:22:53AM -0400, Cindy-Sue Causey wrote:
> On 10/14/18, to...@tuxteam.de  wrote:
> > On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 07:11:07AM +, Long Wind wrote:
> >> Thank tomas!
> >>
> >> i run "cat /etc/adjtime" in jessie and it says LOCALbut in stretch
> >> /etc/adjtime doesn't seem to exist
> >
> > I see. Perhaps this is the root of the problem. On the other
> > hand, perhaps, systemd is taking care of time in stretch by
> > default. In that case I can't help, since my knowledge of
> > systemd is minimal.
> 
> 
> I was going to bring this up yesterday, just couldn't rope the words
> in together. With debootstrap, one step the user manually does is
> this:
> 
> +++ QUOTE k/t https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/apds03.en.html +++

That guide contains curious relics of the past that include, but aren't
limited to:

1) 'lo' interface in /etc/network/interfaces - unneeded even with
stretch's ifupdown.

2) 'hostname' record in /etc/hosts - unneeded with libnss-myhostname.

3) '.local' domain at /etc/resolv.conf - a direct violation of RFC 6762.

4) At controversial (to say the least) recommendation to use 'deb-src'
of Debian main suite without actually specifying 'deb'.

5) The /etc/adjtime configuration itself.
Systemd defaults to UTC - src/timedate/timedated.c in systemd source
tree.
If needed, one can use timedatectl(1) to produce perfectly valid
/etc/adjtime.


> D.3.4.3. Setting Timezone

Of course, whoever wrote this certainly considered *other* init systems
that Debian ships - unlike systemd-timedated, sysvinit, openrc and
upstart rely on hwclock(8).

But since removing systemd from modern Debian takes certain skill and
determination and a reason to do so - I somehow doubt that OP's problem
can be explained by an absence of /etc/adjtime.

Reco

Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[Cindy-Sue Causey]

On 10/14/18, to...@tuxteam.de  wrote:
> On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 07:11:07AM +, Long Wind wrote:
>> Thank tomas!
>>
>> i run "cat /etc/adjtime" in jessie and it says LOCALbut in stretch
>> /etc/adjtime doesn't seem to exist
>
> I see. Perhaps this is the root of the problem. On the other
> hand, perhaps, systemd is taking care of time in stretch by
> default. In that case I can't help, since my knowledge of
> systemd is minimal.


I was going to bring this up yesterday, just couldn't rope the words
in together. With debootstrap, one step the user manually does is
this:

+++ QUOTE k/t https://www.debian.org/releases/buster/amd64/apds03.en.html +++

D.3.4.3. Setting Timezone

Setting the third line of the file /etc/adjtime to “UTC” or “LOCAL”
determines whether the system will interpret the hardware clock as
being set to UTC respective local time. The following command allows
you to set that.

# editor /etc/adjtime

Here is a sample:

0.0 0 0.0
0
UTC

The following command allows you to choose your timezone.

# dpkg-reconfigure tzdata

+++ END QUOTE +++

Mine currently reflects the above months after it was entered. A
similar topic came up a while back while I was using a different
debootstrap'ed copy. For that one particular instance, all those
zeroes had changed to something else that made no sense to me but
surely meant something to the computer.

I don't know how that one change occurred unless I forgot the above
step during that particular debootstrap, and then maybe the system
filled in what it thought it needed. However that change occurred, it
worked at the time because there was no notable difference in how time
was presented. ? :)

Cindy :)
-- 
Cindy-Sue Causey
Talking Rock, Pickens County, Georgia, USA

* runs with duct tape *

Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[tomas]

On Sat, Oct 13, 2018 at 07:11:07AM +, Long Wind wrote:
> Thank tomas! 
> 
> i run "cat /etc/adjtime" in jessie and it says LOCALbut in stretch 
> /etc/adjtime doesn't seem to exist

I see. Perhaps this is the root of the problem. On the other
hand, perhaps, systemd is taking care of time in stretch by
default. In that case I can't help, since my knowledge of
systemd is minimal.

> PS: i receive two copies of your mail.

Yes, sorry. I often CC the original post for the benefit of
those who are not subscribed. I haven't a good solution for
that, yet. Working on it :-)

Cheers
-- tomás


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Re: (solved) Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[David Wright]

On Sat 13 Oct 2018 at 19:51:07 (+), Curt wrote:
> On 2018-10-13, Brian  wrote:
> > On Sat 13 Oct 2018 at 09:03:44 -0500, David Wright wrote:
> >> On Sat 13 Oct 2018 at 07:27:57 (+), Long Wind wrote:
> >> > Thank Teemu Likonen!
> >> > You are right. My stretch and jessie think differently about hardware 
> >> > clock.
> >> > i run "timedatectl set-local-rtc 1", it should be ok for both now.
> >> > though there's warning, i think it's ok
> >> 
> >> Because China doesn't use Daylight Savings Time nowadays, your choice
> >> between UTC and local time is less important than for most as your
> >> clock doesn't have to be changed twice a year.
> >
> > Never knew this, I hope DST and China come up in a pub quiz!
>   
> Me neither. What surprised me, though, is that China has no time zones,
> either (though it covers over 60 degrees of longitude).
> 
> UTC+8 everywhere.
> 
> Apparently Mao made the decision in 1949 to put everyone on Beijing
> Time (and into those cunning little tunics).

That's easy to do when all the power comes from one central authority.
In the USA, virtually the only nationwide rule is that if you want
to change the clocks at all, it has to be done on the same fixed dates.
Timezones, however, are really messy, partly caused, I believe, by the
problem of cities that straddle states in different timezones. I don't
know whether there are any individual counties that are split between zones.

> >> For everyone else, it makes a lot more sense to use UTC for the real
> >> time clock. Also, judging by my experience on this dual-booting
> >
> > For Debian (all we care about), UTC time set in the bios is the way to
> > go. Its always worked for me.

Same here. I used to run DOS on GMT, and had a switch in my programs
that added the hour to any time displayed. As for windows, I stopped
using it in the '90s, but I curate W10 on this PC, and it works
happily on UTC as MS seem to have fixed things.

Cheers,
David.

Re: (solved) Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[Curt]

On 2018-10-13, Brian  wrote:
> On Sat 13 Oct 2018 at 09:03:44 -0500, David Wright wrote:
>
>> On Sat 13 Oct 2018 at 07:27:57 (+), Long Wind wrote:
>> > Thank Teemu Likonen!
>> > You are right. My stretch and jessie think differently about hardware 
>> > clock.
>> > i run "timedatectl set-local-rtc 1", it should be ok for both now.
>> > though there's warning, i think it's ok
>> 
>> Because China doesn't use Daylight Savings Time nowadays, your choice
>> between UTC and local time is less important than for most as your
>> clock doesn't have to be changed twice a year.
>
> Never knew this, I hope DST and China come up in a pub quiz!
  
Me neither. What surprised me, though, is that China has no time zones,
either (though it covers over 60 degrees of longitude).

UTC+8 everywhere.

Apparently Mao made the decision in 1949 to put everyone on Beijing
Time (and into those cunning little tunics).

>> For everyone else, it makes a lot more sense to use UTC for the real
>> time clock. Also, judging by my experience on this dual-booting
>
> For Debian (all we care about), UTC time set in the bios is the way to
> go. Its always worked for me.
>


-- 
"Now she understood that Anna could not have been in lilac, and that her charm
was just that she always stood out against her attire, that her dress could
never be noticeable on her." Leo Tolstoy, Anna Karenina 

Re: (solved) Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[Brian]

On Sat 13 Oct 2018 at 09:03:44 -0500, David Wright wrote:

> On Sat 13 Oct 2018 at 07:27:57 (+), Long Wind wrote:
> > Thank Teemu Likonen!
> > You are right. My stretch and jessie think differently about hardware clock.
> > i run "timedatectl set-local-rtc 1", it should be ok for both now.
> > though there's warning, i think it's ok
> 
> Because China doesn't use Daylight Savings Time nowadays, your choice
> between UTC and local time is less important than for most as your
> clock doesn't have to be changed twice a year.

Never knew this, I hope DST and China come up in a pub quiz!
 
> For everyone else, it makes a lot more sense to use UTC for the real
> time clock. Also, judging by my experience on this dual-booting

For Debian (all we care about), UTC time set in the bios is the way to
go. Its always worked for me.

-- 
Brian.

Re: (solved) Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[David Wright]

On Sat 13 Oct 2018 at 07:27:57 (+), Long Wind wrote:
> Thank Teemu Likonen!
> You are right. My stretch and jessie think differently about hardware clock.
> i run "timedatectl set-local-rtc 1", it should be ok for both now.
> though there's warning, i think it's ok

Because China doesn't use Daylight Savings Time nowadays, your choice
between UTC and local time is less important than for most as your
clock doesn't have to be changed twice a year.

For everyone else, it makes a lot more sense to use UTC for the real
time clock. Also, judging by my experience on this dual-booting
system (W10 and Debian), up-to-date Windows systems can handle
hardware clocks set to UTC (just as we can cope with your emails
being timestamped with UTC!).

If you apply the same logic to any devices you have that are unaware
of timezones (like many cameras) and set them to UTC, then it will
help with keeping all the file timestamps correct as well. This avoids
having to work out all the ramifications spelled out by pages like

https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms724290(v=vs.85).aspx
https://msdn.microsoft.com/en-us/library/windows/desktop/ms724290\(v=vs.85\).aspx

> On Saturday, October 13, 2018 3:10 PM, Teemu Likonen  
> wrote:
>  Long Wind [2018-10-12 21:59:40Z] wrote:
> 
> > jessie and stretch are installed on same PCtime of jessie is wrong:
> > Fri Oct 12 21:51:05 CST 2018then i reboot and enter stretch time of
> > stretch is right: Sat Oct 13 05:55:30 CST 2018 tzdata of both are
> > reconfig to same place
> 
> As others have pointed out probably one operating system thinks that the
> hardware clock is in UTC time and other thinks the clock is in local
> time.
> 
> You can check and configure this with "timedatectl" command. Running the
> command without parameters will show the current status. Command
> "timedatectl set-local-rtc [...]" (executed as root user) sets the
> option in question. Command's man page tells more.

Cheers,
David.

Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[Teemu Likonen]

Long Wind [2018-10-12 21:59:40Z] wrote:

> jessie and stretch are installed on same PCtime of jessie is wrong:
> Fri Oct 12 21:51:05 CST 2018then i reboot and enter stretch time of
> stretch is right: Sat Oct 13 05:55:30 CST 2018 tzdata of both are
> reconfig to same place

As others have pointed out probably one operating system thinks that the
hardware clock is in UTC time and other thinks the clock is in local
time.

You can check and configure this with "timedatectl" command. Running the
command without parameters will show the current status. Command
"timedatectl set-local-rtc [...]" (executed as root user) sets the
option in question. Command's man page tells more.

-- 
/// Teemu Likonen   - .-..    //
// PGP: 4E10 55DC 84E9 DFF6 13D7 8557 719D 69D3 2453 9450 ///


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Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[tomas]

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 10:32:16PM +, Long Wind wrote:
> Thanks! How could I find out  if debian thinks bios clock is set to local 
> time or universal time? 

This is one way to do it:

  tomas@trotzki:~$ cat /etc/adjtime
  0.00 1539378883 0.00
  1539378883
  UTC

The last line will tell you whether the hwclock command is expecting
the hardware clock to be "ticking" UTC or local (if you haven't any
other OS like Windows booting from the same machine, UTC is strongly
recommended).

The other mysterious values are used to compensate inaccuracies of
the hardware clock itself.

Cheers
-- tomas


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Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[Kenneth Parker]

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 6:32 PM Long Wind  wrote:

> Thanks! How could I find out  if debian thinks bios clock is set to local
> time or universal time?
>

I looked it up.  Even though Arch Linux isn't Debian, I respect them, for
giving good, technical details about Linux Concepts.  Here's a Link:

https://wiki.archlinux.org/index.php/time


> Good Luck and Best Regards,
>
>
> Kenneth Parker, Computer Consultant
>
>
>

Re: jessie and stretch time problem

[Kenneth Parker]

On Fri, Oct 12, 2018 at 6:01 PM Long Wind  wrote:

> jessie and stretch are installed on same PC
> time of jessie is wrong: Fri Oct 12 21:51:05 CST 2018
> then i reboot and enter stretch
> time of stretch is right: Sat Oct 13 05:55:30 CST 2018
>
> tzdata of both are reconfig to same place
>

Is it possible that one is set to "Local Time", and the other to "UTC Time"?

I had that problem once, Dual Booting Windows XP (I'm Dating myself) and an
old version of Ubuntu.  Turned out to be an Education Issue:  Everything
was fine, when I changed Linux to "Local Time".   (Your issue may be the
opposite).

I forgot what I did to fix it.  (So Long Ago. LOL!)

Good Luck and Best Regards,

Kenneth Parker, Computer Consultant

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 19:07:46 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Thursday 15 September 2016 13:38:49 Brian wrote:
> > On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 11:01:12 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > > Are you deliberately remaining uncontactable off list?  You must be
> > > sending
> >
> > I am not uncontactable.
> >
> > > from one email address and receiving to another, since the email address
> > >  still doesn't work, and you are getting list
> > > emails.
> >
> > The system delivering the mail (which I do not control) definitely works
> > because you got a helpful mail by return. That mail did not come from my
> > mail system.
> 
> No, the emails I tried to send off-list got rejection messages, not helpful 
> replies.

What if Royal Mail told you they were unable to deliver a letter you had
put into one of their nice red pillar boxes? Wouldn't that be useful
information you could take action on? If you sent a letter to 123 M7 9QD
in the UK and it wasn't returned you would surely assume Royal Mail had
delivered it? I'd dispute that bounce messages are not useful. Problems
very often arise when mail has been delivered but there is no feedback.

> > As a matter of interest: suppose you had received no rejection message;
> > what would you think? 
> 
> I would assume that you had had the email and ignored it.

Why should *I* have the mail? If the receiving system doesn't pass it on
to me I'll never see it. The best you can say is that the receiving
system accepted the mail via SMTP. What happens after that has nothing
to do with SMTP. Another system accepts the mail from the SMTP
transaction and deals with it. Knowledge of what happens there could be
non-existent unless the accepting system chooses to tell you.

The mail is accepted. What the receving system does with it is up to it.
It could put the mail through a spam detection system which deletes the
mail or not let a user download it without paying. None of this process
is under the control of the recipient; she gets what the receiving
system decides she gets. The sending system also has no say in the
matter

Think of all the mails which come through your letter-box; Royal Mail
(SMTP) has done its job. The sender has had the letter delivered; they
get no bounce message so think the recipient has receved it. But,
unbeknownst to you, or Royal Mail, someone in the house filters out some
of the mail. You may never know this happens.

Acceptance of mail by the mail system does not imply or guarantee the
recipient receives a mail. It depends on what happens after the
acceptance (which is  not controlled by the recipient or the sending
system).

> > Working from those thoughts: suppose you never 
> > received a reply from me? What would go through you mind?
> 
> If you were continuing to reply to the list I would assume that I was being 
> ignored for some reason.  If you were not posting to the list I would worry 
> fruitlessly about you and miss your contribution.

My mail to the list and the mail entering my inbox are completely
independent. Think about it; there is no connection between the two
processes. However, even though the assumption is unsustainable, I
understand what you are saying. It is natural to think that sending
something means it gets there. After all, in 9,999 cases out of 10,000
it does.

> > > If you are prepared to be contacted off-line, but don't want to publish
> > > the address here, may I have it?  You have my email address!!
> >
> > The address *is* published here. Please see the final two paragraphs of
> >
> >   https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/08/msg00997.html
> 
> Yes, I am sorry.  I did look.  But I am partially sighted, headers are 
> difficult, I was in a hurry and I knew that you had been having a problem 
> with ?Demon? and that address that you were wondering how to resolve.

Demon have decided that mail provision has been free all these years.
"Free" means it is not subject to contact and consequently can be moved
elsewhere and made accessible for a fee. I am too tightfisted to pay for
"elsewhere".

> I will copy and paste your headers into a word processor so that I can edit 
> them into legibility and go from there.

You'll get there. Say if you don't.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Thursday 15 September 2016 13:38:49 Brian wrote:
> On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 11:01:12 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > Are you deliberately remaining uncontactable off list?  You must be
> > sending
>
> I am not uncontactable.
>
> > from one email address and receiving to another, since the email address
> >  still doesn't work, and you are getting list
> > emails.
>
> The system delivering the mail (which I do not control) definitely works
> because you got a helpful mail by return. That mail did not come from my
> mail system.

No, the emails I tried to send off-list got rejection messages, not helpful 
replies.
>
> As a matter of interest: suppose you had received no rejection message;
> what would you think? 

I would assume that you had had the email and ignored it.

> Working from those thoughts: suppose you never 
> received a reply from me? What would go through you mind?

If you were continuing to reply to the list I would assume that I was being 
ignored for some reason.  If you were not posting to the list I would worry 
fruitlessly about you and miss your contribution.
>
> > If you are prepared to be contacted off-line, but don't want to publish
> > the address here, may I have it?  You have my email address!!
>
> The address *is* published here. Please see the final two paragraphs of
>
>   https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/08/msg00997.html

Yes, I am sorry.  I did look.  But I am partially sighted, headers are 
difficult, I was in a hurry and I knew that you had been having a problem 
with ?Demon? and that address that you were wondering how to resolve.

I will copy and paste your headers into a word processor so that I can edit 
them into legibility and go from there.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 11:01:12 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> Are you deliberately remaining uncontactable off list?  You must be sending 

I am not uncontactable.

> from one email address and receiving to another, since the email address  
>  still doesn't work, and you are getting list emails.

The system delivering the mail (which I do not control) definitely works
because you got a helpful mail by return. That mail did not come from my
mail system.

As a matter of interest: suppose you had received no rejection message;
what would you think? Working from those thoughts: suppose you never
received a reply from me? What would go through you mind?

> If you are prepared to be contacted off-line, but don't want to publish the 
> address here, may I have it?  You have my email address!!

The address *is* published here. Please see the final two paragraphs of

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/08/msg00997.html

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Thursday 15 September 2016 00:50:25 Brian wrote:
> On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 00:33:09 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:
> > On Wednesday 14 September 2016 23:09:12 Brian wrote:
> > > >        Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my
> > > > indentations.  Others don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?
> >
> > Indentations count as formatting.  Plain text is supposed not to preserve
> > formatting.
>
> I think you can be excused from thinking I wrote that but I didn't.
> Nothing for anyone to get bothered about as far as I am concerned.

I'm sorry.  That was carelessness.  It is a "fault" in my email client that it 
tends to get the attributions of emails wrong when it is asked in advance to 
trim for a reply. I do know that I should check, and not doing so is plain 
carelessness.  

For the record, it was *Alan* whose indentations my (and many other) email 
clients *correctly* did not preserve.  It has been instructed to use plain 
text.  (Another instruction it doesn't always obey, but therein hangs another 
story.)

Are you deliberately remaining uncontactable off list?  You must be sending 
from one email address and receiving to another, since the email address  
 still doesn't work, and you are getting list emails.  
If you are prepared to be contacted off-line, but don't want to publish the 
address here, may I have it?  You have my email address!!

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Brian" <a...@cityscape.co.uk>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 5:09:12 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

> What is "unenlightening" to you may not be unenlightening to others;
> trust me on that. "garbage" is *your* value judgement; 
>  No, I'm going to insist on my "garbage" denotation.  Since I have a 
> very
>  acceptable way of going from one OS to another, your input on what 
> os-prober
>  returned to me is of little interest to me, and much less to the 
> other members
>  of this E-list, I'm sure.

You can insist on what you want. It is easy when only you know what the
the output is.
I've seen error messages before.




>  an expert programmer, which I used to be but am not any more, could 
> put those
>  few simple steps into a "first of all" window.  Maybe a simple grub 
> file?

That's fine; it does what you want and will serve you well. Stick with
it. but forget about involving GRUB.
  But a flow chart to do it would be easy:
  Read input
 if input=L then
 do nothing
 else if input=W, then
 change boot method to Windows Boot Manager
 else
 return to read input
 fi
Something like that could be easily implemented, methinks.  But 
I'm
not going to do it.




>  Yes.  If I could move stuff from my Windows OS to my Jessie, and vice
>  versa, that would be a big help.  Any suggestions from anyone about 
> that?
>  Linux used to be able to go into MS-DOS and put files there and get 
> files
>  out of there.  Has anyone any information on that?

I rather think there is an answer in the response you quoted.
 I didn't see it.  Remind me.




>xorg(or maybe it was x11), and my 'startx', from my old 
> wheezy(fortunately
>saved) worked, after I'd done a few tweeks to my .xinitrc.  I tried my
>old beloved sawfish(now wmctl) but that didn't work as well as 
> metacity.

Good. (Your technique is extraordinary but comments on it are outside
the scope of this thread).
 Thank you!  I would rather start off with a X-less tty1 and then enter 
X
 with my own choice of what to run, how the background looks, etc.  
startx,
 with a good .xinit, does all I want.  Simplicity, dear my lord,
 makes computing yare. 



> a username and password which got me, and keeps me, online . . . but only for 
> the
> Windoze side.  I gotta do some exploring to see if I can make this work with 
> Jessie.

I'm confident you are resourceful and will manage.
 I trust that your confidence in me is not misplaced.

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Thu 15 Sep 2016 at 00:33:09 +0100, Lisi Reisz wrote:

> On Wednesday 14 September 2016 23:09:12 Brian wrote:
> > >        Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my
> > > indentations.  Others don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?
> 
> Indentations count as formatting.  Plain text is supposed not to preserve 
> formatting.

I think you can be excused from thinking I wrote that but I didn't.
Nothing for anyone to get bothered about as far as I am concerned.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 23:09:12 Brian wrote:
> >        Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my
> > indentations.  Others don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?

Indentations count as formatting.  Plain text is supposed not to preserve 
formatting.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 17:11:26 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

Alan McConnell's responses are indented and begin with >.

> From: "Brian" 

Brian's resonses are not indented.

> 
> >  Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run 
> > os-prober.
> >  I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote; 
> > trust me
> >  that it was unenlightening garbage.
>Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my indentations. 
>  Others
>don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?

Perchance.
 
> What is "unenlightening" to you may not be unenlightening to others;
> trust me on that. "garbage" is *your* value judgement; 
>  No, I'm going to insist on my "garbage" denotation.  Since I have a 
> very
>  acceptable way of going from one OS to another, your input on what 
> os-prober
>  returned to me is of little interest to me, and much less to the 
> other members
>  of this E-list, I'm sure.

You can insist on what you want. It is easy when only you know what the
the output is.

> 
>  But I'd like to defend what Lisi calls a "kludge".  Here is what I 
> do: when I
>  boot, or reboot my machine, if I do nothing I get my Jessie, which 
> is what I
>  want.  If I want to go to Windoze, I gotta hold the F12, as Felix 
> Mieta taught
>  me several moons ago, and then I get put into a nice menu: Choose 
> the boot
>  manager.  I use my Arrow keys to get to Windows boot manager, and 
> voila! in a
>  few seconds I'm in Windoze.  Not so difficult after all.  And I 
> would think that
>  an expert programmer, which I used to be but am not any more, could 
> put those
>  few simple steps into a "first of all" window.  Maybe a simple grub 
> file?

That's fine; it does what you want and will serve you well. Stick with
it. but forget about involving GRUB.
 
> We Debian users yearn for the day when copy 'n paste and USB sticks are
> invented. It will make things so much easier to move information (which
> is severely lacking from you in this thread) about.
>  Yes.  If I could move stuff from my Windows OS to my Jessie, and vice
>  versa, that would be a big help.  Any suggestions from anyone about 
> that?
>  Linux used to be able to go into MS-DOS and put files there and get 
> files
>  out of there.  Has anyone any information on that?

I rather think there is an answer in the response you quoted.
 
> > > Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a 
> > > network 
> > > installation started via a Stretch installer. 
> >  Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get 
> > on
> >  line.
>That situation has changed as of just an hour ago.  I did a reinstall 
> of
>xorg(or maybe it was x11), and my 'startx', from my old 
> wheezy(fortunately
>saved) worked, after I'd done a few tweeks to my .xinitrc.  I tried my
>old beloved sawfish(now wmctl) but that didn't work as well as 
> metacity.

Good. (Your technique is extraordinary but comments on it are outside
the scope of this thread).

> > (*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one 
> > of the
> > things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.
> 
> You've asked this five months ago:
> I did indeed.  That was before my old machine gave up the ghost.  I 
> am 
> impressed, Brian, that you keep such careful track of me.

I have a reasonably good memory. It was GNOME not installing libreoffice
which triggered the connections. So unusual. You never responded to that
either at the time it was pointed out.

> My final problem is: how to get my Jessie to get on line.  I don't think this 
> is
> anything anyone here can help me with, since I live in a retirement community
> which has a huge contract with Comcast.  I called a tech person here, and he 
> gave me
> a username and password which got me, and keeps me, online . . . but only for 
> the
> Windoze side.  I gotta do some exploring to see if I can make this work with 
> Jessie.

I'm confident you are resourceful and will manage.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Brian" <a...@cityscape.co.uk>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 1:51:50 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 11:34:31 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> From: "Felix Miata" <mrma...@earthlink.net>
> 
> It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a 
> particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it, 
> rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever 
> non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 
> boot sector code.

This following quotes beginning with > are from Alan McConnell.

>  Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run 
> os-prober.
>  I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote; 
> trust me
>  that it was unenlightening garbage.
   Ah. That's good.  Your E-mail reader seems to respect my indentations.  
Others
   don't, alas.  Do you perchance use mutt?

What is "unenlightening" to you may not be unenlightening to others;
trust me on that. "garbage" is *your* value judgement; 
 No, I'm going to insist on my "garbage" denotation.  Since I have a 
very
 acceptable way of going from one OS to another, your input on what 
os-prober
 returned to me is of little interest to me, and much less to the other 
members
 of this E-list, I'm sure.

 But I'd like to defend what Lisi calls a "kludge".  Here is what I do: 
when I
 boot, or reboot my machine, if I do nothing I get my Jessie, which is 
what I
 want.  If I want to go to Windoze, I gotta hold the F12, as Felix 
Mieta taught
 me several moons ago, and then I get put into a nice menu: Choose the 
boot
 manager.  I use my Arrow keys to get to Windows boot manager, and 
voila! in a
 few seconds I'm in Windoze.  Not so difficult after all.  And I would 
think that
 an expert programmer, which I used to be but am not any more, could 
put those
 few simple steps into a "first of all" window.  Maybe a simple grub 
file?


We Debian users yearn for the day when copy 'n paste and USB sticks are
invented. It will make things so much easier to move information (which
is severely lacking from you in this thread) about.
 Yes.  If I could move stuff from my Windows OS to my Jessie, and vice
 versa, that would be a big help.  Any suggestions from anyone about 
that?
 Linux used to be able to go into MS-DOS and put files there and get 
files
 out of there.  Has anyone any information on that?

> > Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network 
> > installation started via a Stretch installer. 
>  Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get on
>  line.
   That situation has changed as of just an hour ago.  I did a reinstall of
   xorg(or maybe it was x11), and my 'startx', from my old 
wheezy(fortunately
   saved) worked, after I'd done a few tweeks to my .xinitrc.  I tried my
   old beloved sawfish(now wmctl) but that didn't work as well as metacity.

> (*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one of 
> the
> things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.

You've asked this five months ago:
I did indeed.  That was before my old machine gave up the ghost.  I am 
impressed, Brian, that you keep such careful track of me.

My final problem is: how to get my Jessie to get on line.  I don't think this is
anything anyone here can help me with, since I live in a retirement community
which has a huge contract with Comcast.  I called a tech person here, and he 
gave me
a username and password which got me, and keeps me, online . . . but only for 
the
Windoze side.  I gotta do some exploring to see if I can make this work with 
Jessie.


>  You are probably asking the wrong question.


Best wishes to all, even to Lisi!

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Lisi Reisz" <lisi.re...@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 2:05:47 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 19:51:50 Brian wrote:
> You are probably asking the wrong question.

Oh, no, Brian.  He is asking the right question by definition.  Alan is asking 
it, it is therefore right.
   Lisi, is this kind of post helpful?  Is that a question that you even ask
   yourself?  For some reason you've taken a dislike to me, at a distance of
   5000 miles.  That's OK, no skin off my nose.  But you are starting to 
irritate
   other members of this E-list.  So please: make sure from now on that your
   posts contain information, and not just name-calling.  We'd all 
appreciate it.

TIA,

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 19:51:50 Brian wrote:
> You are probably asking the wrong question.

Oh, no, Brian.  He is asking the right question by definition.  Alan is asking 
it, it is therefore right.

We are providing the wrong answers.  And to make matters worse we are doing so 
in Old English words that poor Alan does not know, so we must have invented 
them.

My Tutor came from Bedford College (previous job).  She would have got on well 
with Alan.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 11:34:31 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> From: "Felix Miata" 
> 
> It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a 
> particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it, 
> rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever 
> non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 
> boot sector code.

This following quotes beginning with > are from Alan McConnell.

>  Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run 
> os-prober.
>  I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote; 
> trust me
>  that it was unenlightening garbage.

What is "unenlightening" to you may not be unenlightening to others;
trust me on that. "garbage" is *your* value judgement; nobody can
dispute it (except in the abstract) but it unlikely to be in that
category. But you did get an output; you have no idea how interesting
that is.

We Debian users yearn for the day when copy 'n paste and USB sticks are
invented. It will make things so much easier to move information (which
is severely lacking from you in this thread) about.

> > Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network 
> > installation started via a Stretch installer. 
>  Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get on
>  line.

You claimed to be unable to install libreoffice when installing GNOME:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/04/msg00247.html

I decided to bite the bullet/go with the flow, and
install GNOME, the whole thing.  Which I did, and
it took just short of an hour.  For some reason,
Libreoffice was not installed.

This is completely impossible using 'apt-get install gnome', of course.
Not unless the Debian packaging system has a gaping hole in it. But it
happened to you (and nobody else). A mishapprension on your part?

Now it is X; X works fine for everyone; a mishapprension on your part? At
another time it was cups; a mishapprension on your part? Where to next?
How many more mishapprensions devoid of usable data are there going to
be?.

> (*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one of 
> the
> things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.

You've asked this five months ago:

  https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/04/msg00278.html

Does anyone know how to create an .Xauthority with xauth?
I find the man page of xauth pretty impenetrable.

You are probably asking the wrong question.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 16:34:31 Alan McConnell wrote:
> - Original Message -
> From: "Felix Miata" <mrma...@earthlink.net>
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 1:44:14 AM
> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
>
> Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-13 20:50 (UTC-0400):
> > when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I
> > apologize for Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home
> > mutt so nicely does.
> >
> > Just because one is unable to get whatever she is using to compose a
> > reply according to standards automatically doesn't excuse one who knows
> > better from conforming. Apologizing, particularly while continuing to not
> > conform, does not excuse. You are responsible for what you post, not your
> > posting agent.
>
>I just put in the '>'s in the four lines above by hand.  I hope you
> are not going to ask me to continue to do so!  Especially since I've
> already explained that Zimbra(which is set up to deal with E-mail) is such
> a cruddy mess.

It would be courteous.  It makes an enormous difference.

 ...
>
> > But maybe someone
> > can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine
> > that there is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to
> > know about Windows 10 to behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "
>
>  I have just checked and when I sent this it was indented eight
> spaces or so. As is this present paragraph.  Do you(plural) see that it is
> indented?  or does your(plural) mail reader simply delete the spaces?  I
> ask, because I don't like to be chewed out when I'm doing my (present)
> level best to conform with expectations.  Of course, it could be that
> Zimbra deletes the preliminary spaces before sending the mail out.  I could
> tell you tales about how Gmail mucks with what one has written before it
> sends the mail.
>
>
> It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a
> particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for
> it, rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from
> whatever non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything
> resembling boot sector code.
>  Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run
> os-prober. I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote;
> trust me that it was unenlightening garbage.
>
> > Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a
> > network installation started via a Stretch installer.
>
>  Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get
> on line.
>
> (*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one
> of the things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.

Why not try re-downloading your install media and starting again?  I take it 
you did check the integrity of your install media?  And did you edit your 
BIOS before starting?  Rhetorical question.  I know that you don't believe in 
answering questions or actually solving problems.  You have an unsatisfactory 
kludge and prefer to leave it so and just keep moaning.  Or I would ask 
EXACTLY what you have done and EXACTLY which model you have installed on.

Lots of people have got round the MS and Intel blocks and got Win10 and Jessie 
dual booting.  But is it a Skylake CPU?  Because that would add an added 
complication with the Jessie installer.

Either try to solve your problem or live with it and stop moaning.  
(Wiktionary suggests that in that meaning that is acceptable on both sides of 
the Atlantic).

Incidentally, I have just checked in my OED.  Printed version,  3rd Edition, 
published 1944, reprinted 1978.  Whinge has been in use in its present 
meaning since 1513 (they can cite a use in 1513), though it was only used 
that long ago in the north and in Scotland.  Whinger, the noun, cans only be 
cited in 1540.

But:
https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=etymology+and+usage+of+whinge=etymology+and+usage+of+whinge=chrome..69i57.9456j0j7=chrome=UTF-8
Note the first hit.  Merriam Webster says that it has been in use since the 
12th Century.  

It hasn't been introduced here, it has died out there.  It has been in 
continuous use since the 16th Century or earlier.

But I don't suppose you listened to what people in Egham were saying in 1967 
any more than you listen to us now.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Felix Miata" <mrma...@earthlink.net>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Wednesday, September 14, 2016 1:44:14 AM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-13 20:50 (UTC-0400):

> when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I apologize 
> for
> Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home mutt so nicely does.

> Just because one is unable to get whatever she is using to compose a reply 
> according to standards automatically doesn't excuse one who knows better from 
> conforming. Apologizing, particularly while continuing to not conform, does 
> not excuse. You are responsible for what you post, not your posting agent.
   I just put in the '>'s in the four lines above by hand.  I hope you are 
not
   going to ask me to continue to do so!  Especially since I've already 
explained
   that Zimbra(which is set up to deal with E-mail) is such a cruddy mess.


...
> But maybe someone
> can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine that 
> there
> is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about Windows 
> 10 to
> behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "
 I have just checked and when I sent this it was indented eight spaces 
or so.
 As is this present paragraph.  Do you(plural) see that it is indented? 
 or does
 your(plural) mail reader simply delete the spaces?  I ask, because I 
don't like
 to be chewed out when I'm doing my (present) level best to conform 
with 
 expectations.  Of course, it could be that Zimbra deletes the 
preliminary spaces
 before sending the mail out.  I could tell you tales about how Gmail 
mucks with
 what one has written before it sends the mail.


It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a 
particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it, 
rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever 
non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 
boot sector code.
 Yep.  I have been back to my Jessie in the meantime, and run os-prober.
 I didn't attempt to copy down on a piece of paper what it wrote; trust 
me
 that it was unenlightening garbage.

> Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network 
> installation started via a Stretch installer. 
 Jeez!  I can't even run X11 on my present install(*) let alone get on
 line.

(*)  Does anyone here know how to create a .Xauthority file?  That is one of the
things the Jessie installer failed to provide me with.

Best wishes,

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Wed 14 Sep 2016 at 02:44:14 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-13 20:50 (UTC-0400):
> ...
> >But maybe someone
> >can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine 
> >that there
> >is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about 
> >Windows 10 to
> >behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "
> 
> As explained by Brian on 2016-09-13 15:40 (UTC+0100), first came Jessie,
> then came Windows 10, and an apparent solution has since been provided for
> those who choose to install a Debian version younger than Windows 10.

I might have come to an invalid conclusion from reading the changelog
snippet quoted earlier and then went to lay far too much emphasis on
Jessie d-i preceding Windows 10. What is fixed is not whether an entry
for Windows 10 is displayed but the wording of the entry in the GRUB
menu.

Apologies for anything misleading.
 
> It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a
> particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it,
> rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever
> non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling
> boot sector code.

Yes it does appear curious, especially as the implication in the
changelog (and a few reports I've seen elsewhere) is that a Windows 10
install can be discovered by os-prober but provides "Windows Recovery
Partition" as GRUB's menu entry.

> Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network
> installation started via a Stretch installer. Possibly (I haven't tried, and
> not only do I have no interest in kicking either of my sleeping dog Windows
> 10s, I'm exclusively responsible for primary bootloader maintenance on all
> my computers, and rarely allow os-prober to run.) the os-prober shortcoming
> that troubled you might be avoided in such manner.

os-prober from stretch/unstable should install on Jessie with 'dpkg -i'
but I am much less confident it would fix a missing entry, even though
it should do no harm to try.

Another possibilty is

  https://wiki.debian.org/DualBoot/Windows10

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 01:50:44 Alan McConnell wrote:

>Re Royal Holloway: boys were added in 1966, a year before my time
> there.  But there were always male faculty there, especially in math, which
> subject has, most unfortunately, suffered from a dearth of qualified women.
>  This is beginning to change: the AMS puts a lot of effort in supporting
> women and departments supporting women.

But:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlotte_Scott
and
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philippa_Fawcett

Quality, not quantity.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Wednesday 14 September 2016 01:50:44 Alan McConnell wrote:
> More perhaps tomorrow.  I have tasks to perform before bed.  But maybe
> someone can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and
> determine that there is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it
> have to know about Windows 10 to behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "

It can.  But MS put a lot of effort into making it difficult to dual boot with 
Windows 10, and the installer you are using was, as you have been told, 
written before Windows 10 was released.  The first installer to be written 
AFTER Windows 10 can apparently handle it well. I haven't tried.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Felix Miata]

Alan McConnell composed on 2016-09-13 20:50 (UTC-0400):


Lisi Reisz composed:



Gene Heskett wrote:



Now I am going to push back Alan.



If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that,
the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent



(wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46
(Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

...

https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/logging-zimbra-web-client

...

Interesting that the IAS uses Zimbra.  I've been after Paul Heller for years
to get rid of Zimbra, a huge clunky webmail interface, and I only use it when
when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I apologize 
for
Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home mutt so nicely does.


Just because one is unable to get whatever she is using to compose a reply 
according to standards automatically doesn't excuse one who knows better from 
conforming. Apologizing, particularly while continuing to not conform, does 
not excuse. You are responsible for what you post, not your posting agent.


...

But maybe someone
can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine that 
there
is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about Windows 
10 to
behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "


As explained by Brian on 2016-09-13 15:40 (UTC+0100), first came Jessie, then 
came Windows 10, and an apparent solution has since been provided for those 
who choose to install a Debian version younger than Windows 10.


It does seem curious that the Debian installer would need knowledge of a 
particular Windows version in order to provide a boot menu selection for it, 
rather than simply having one that says "Windows", booting from whatever 
non-native/NTFS filesystem it happens to find containing anything resembling 
boot sector code.


Should you be game to try installing Jessie again, you might try a network 
installation started via a Stretch installer. Possibly (I haven't tried, and 
not only do I have no interest in kicking either of my sleeping dog Windows 
10s, I'm exclusively responsible for primary bootloader maintenance on all my 
computers, and rarely allow os-prober to run.) the os-prober shortcoming that 
troubled you might be avoided in such manner.

--
"The wise are known for their understanding, and pleasant
words are persuasive." Proverbs 16:21 (New Living Translation)

 Team OS/2 ** Reg. Linux User #211409 ** a11y rocks!

Felix Miata  ***  http://fm.no-ip.com/

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Lisi Reisz" <lisi.re...@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 3:58:01 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 18:24:07 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 September 2016 08:57:19 Alan McConnell wrote:
> > Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback
> > against various insinuations that have been made.
>
> Now I am going to push back Alan.
>
> If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that,
> the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent
>
> (wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46
> (Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/logging-zimbra-web-client
   Interesting that the IAS uses Zimbra.  I've been after Paul Heller for 
years
   to get rid of Zimbra, a huge clunky webmail interface, and I only use it 
when
   when my home Debian install is, for some reason, not functional.  I 
apologize for
   Zimbra's inadequacies, failure to produce '>' as my home mutt so nicely 
does.

It isn't an email client, and obviously can't do threading and quoting and 
things.  Alan clearly doesn't understand them, just as he doesn't understand 
what the word "solved" means.  Hint for Alan:  it doesn't mean the same as 
kludged.
   Sorry, I do know what 'solved' means, and I do say that _my_ problem is
   solved.  But my solution, as I've said over and over again, is not one 
that
   I can give to people who are running a dual boot system at my urging.



> to properly quote, and honor existing quotes, if for no other reason than
> to help us identify who wrote what.  That is what all those leading >
> and >> > are all about. It is also part of the email protocol that has
> existed since the late 80's of the last century.
   Absolutely!  I couldn't agree more.  When I get Jessie running properly 
on
   my new Dell I'll have my emacs put in quotes as they should be.  But I 
don't
   know how to do it on Zimbra, which, I'll repeat, is a foul piece of SW.  
For
   now I'm indenting my replies.  I hope all your mail readers respect my
   indentations; I have a suspicion that some of them don't.

   Re Royal Holloway: boys were added in 1966, a year before my time there. 
 But
   there were always male faculty there, especially in math, which subject 
has,
   most unfortunately, suffered from a dearth of qualified women.  This is 
beginning
   to change: the AMS puts a lot of effort in supporting women and 
departments
   supporting women.

   More perhaps tomorrow.  I have tasks to perform before bed.  But maybe 
someone
   can tell me why the installer can't look at the partitions and determine 
that there
   is some kind of OS already installed?  Why does it have to know about 
Windows 10 to
   behave sensibly?  "Curious minds . . . "

Best wishes,

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[David Wright]

On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 21:02:01 (+0100), Lisi Reisz wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 September 2016 20:30:20 Brian wrote:
> > > A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the
> > > English for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?
> > >  I don't recall ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway
> > > College back in 1967-68.
> >
> > Language changes. One hopes modes of thinking on -user will adapt too.
> 
> I had to check whether there were any (other) men at Royal Holloway (a 
> women's 
> college) in 1967   (There were - just.)

I don't think either of the constituents of RubberNeck disallowed
men on the *staff*. (I also didn't realise they dropped the Neck out
of their name, although Royal Holloway and Bedford New College remains
their legal name.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 18:24:07 Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Tuesday 13 September 2016 08:57:19 Alan McConnell wrote:
> > Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback
> > against various insinuations that have been made.
>
> Now I am going to push back Alan.
>
> If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that,
> the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent
>
> (wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46
> (Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

https://www.itg.ias.edu/content/logging-zimbra-web-client

It isn't an email client, and obviously can't do threading and quoting and 
things.  Alan clearly doesn't understand them, just as he doesn't understand 
what the word "solved" means.  Hint for Alan:  it doesn't mean the same as 
kludged.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kludged
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/kludge#English  (See meaning 3)

Lisi

> to properly quote, and honor existing quotes, if for no other reason than
> to help us identify who wrote what.  That is what all those leading >
> and >> > are all about. It is also part of the email protocol that has
> existed since the late 80's of the last century.
>
> > - Original Message -
>
> Which I scrubbed because there are NO quotes in it other than what my
> email agent added.  Why they were totally removed I've no clue, but it
> marks your email agent as being seriously mis-configured, or was written
> by an idiot.
>
> Please fix it to obey 30 year old email quoting standards.
>
> Cheers, Gene Heskett

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 20:30:20 Brian wrote:
> > A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the
> > English for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?
> >  I don't recall ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway
> > College back in 1967-68.
>
> Language changes. One hopes modes of thinking on -user will adapt too.

I had to check whether there were any (other) men at Royal Holloway (a women's 
college) in 1967   (There were - just.)

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[David Wright]

On Mon 12 Sep 2016 at 14:14:53 (-0400), Alan McConnell wrote:
> - Original Message -
> From: "Felix Miata" <mrma...@earthlink.net>
> Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 10:14:26 PM
> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
> 
> David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
> ...
> >> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
> ...
> How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
> continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
> after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
> useful help?
> Hurrah for Felix!  He got it.

Glad you found it funny.
> 
> Now I have a follow-on question:  I'd like to be able, from Jessie, to copy 
> files to and from my
> Windoze system.  I haven't really tried simply cd-ing to e.g. /dev/sda1, 
> which is the partition
> containing my Windoze stuff.  Is that what you dual OS users do?  is there 
> some subtle   mount
> command  that you use?   I shall be most grateful for any instructions, or 
> even suggestions.

I put lines in /etc/fstab that look like:

UUID=8CA476AAA4769684 /media/olaf01 ntfsro,utf8
UUID=349A79B99A797866 /media/olaf02 ntfsro,utf8

where those UUIDs come from dire /dev/disk/by-uuid/* or
/run/udev/data/b* but bear in mind that I only transfer file in one
direction. I don't mess with NTFS disks: if I want to move files,
I transfer them via a VFAT stick in the USB socket.
That way, if and when they get screwed up, the blame lies
firmly with M$.

(The mount points follow my convention of the disk's nickname
plus two digits for the partition numbers.)

For anyone following this thread, do they recognise those UUIDs?
The reason I ask is that I have two XP systems both with those
numbers, but I have no idea if the university installs new PC
OSes by cloning disks, or whether the UUIDs carry information
like 30E002E0454647 now does. (Until today, google didn't find
them; tomorrow it might.)

Cheers,
David.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 13:01:58 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> You were asked for some information. You declined to provide it. As a
> route to solving a technical problem your response leaves a lot to be
> desired.
>  Did you read why I declined?  I repeat my reason for your benefit:

I imagine your question is rhetorical, so it has no real edge to it and
does not require me to give an impression of an affronted user. The
repetition is unnecessary as it simply confirms you went into "sod this
for a game of soldiers" mode and started digging a deeper hole for
yourself.

>  getting information from my only partially installed Jessie means
>  shutting down my Windoze OS(I'm writing this from my Windows OS),
>  turning on my Jessie, and writing a bunch of detailed information on
>  a piece of paper, shutting down Jessie and returning to Windoze and
>  transcribing what my paper said to an E-mail.  That process requires
>  a lot of error-prone steps, and you or someone else might have called
>  for an iteration, which would have driven me up the wall.
> 
> The output of interest is from os-prober. You know what it, unless you
> are so uninterested in seeking a solution you haven't even run it or are
> keeping what it says to yourself.
>  I ran os-prober.  I can't here reproduce what it gave me, but it
>  didn't reveal the OS that came with the just purchased machine.

Even saying that would have given us a hook to hang a response on. Not
giving a precis alongside your other output was a bad move because it
altered the focus. Verbatim output is always best but a summary is
better than nothing.

   Verbatim output   =10/10
   Verbatim output+whine =7/10 (Diverts responses away from output)
   Summary   =6/10 (There is some value in it)
   Summary+whine =3/10 (Diverts responses away from output)
   Whine only=0/10

>  Which leads me to my often-stated conclusion:  since the install
>  program stated "No other OS can be found on this machine", the
>  installer is broken.

Broken? Mmm. Windows 10 was released on 29th July 2015. The Jessie
installer was released on 25th April 2015; there are indeed updates to
it but only for important features like security.

"Ah", you will say, what about d-i's DivineTheFuture package? Well, it
failed abysmally, although some Debian developers made a fortune from
betting on the Grand National using its predictions. (Warning: Fantasy
module switched on full).

> You may be interested to know that the Debian Fairy has waved her magic
> wand and made your machine dual bootable. From os-prober's changelog on
> unstable:
>  Good grief, Brian.  What I have is Jessie.  But it is good to
>  know that attention is being paid to this issue, and the installer
>  for stretch may be an improvement.

You've completely missed the point. Try saying to yourself

  I wish my machine had a file like unstable's or testing's

and then figure out how it could have such a file. (The os-prober output
would tell you whether what you did worked). This is the central section
in this mail. If you reply to anything you should reply to this.

> > Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement 
> > or smarm.
> > Please help me to keep it!
> 
> I don't do smarm. If you perceived what I wrote to be that, it reveals a
> weakness in my irony, sarcasm and mild insults modules.
>I did perceive it.  Advice: delete your ISMI module and pay
>  more attention to your courteous and helpful module.  Which I'm sure
>  exists.

It doesn't seem possible. Every time I make an attempt I hear a melody
and a voice singing "Daisy, Daisy, give me your answer."

> A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the 
> English
> for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?  I don't 
> recall
> ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway College back in 1967-68.

Language changes. One hopes modes of thinking on -user will adapt too.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[David Wright]

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 23:14:26 (-0400), Felix Miata wrote:
> David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
> ...
> >>Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
> ...
> How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives
> to continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more
> than 12 hours after OP added string "solved" to the subject and
> thanked people who provided useful help?

What does "12 hours" have to do with the price of fish?

Ironic to say that about a post that itself contains:
 "Re your last post quoted above, what's the problem with running jessie
  and reporting the information you were asked for? I assume that you
  installed jessie so that you could run it occasionally.
  I know some people on this list treat it like the telephone ("I'm
  going to bed now, and will try it in the morning" kind of thing) but
  the list will wait for the next occasion that you boot up your jessie.
  ^^
  In fact, it often pays *not* to give quick responses because it gives
  you time to think on the problem, and you *are* the best-placed
  person to come up with a solution (as you have done, in a way)."

The reasons I posted:

AMcC drew attention to the title of his post: "How to get Jessie to
run at boot time -- Problem solved" where it's not clear that the
problem being solved is what's in the title, nor that the "solution"
is anything more that a workaround that does something for him.

His annoyance at being asked to provide more information so that
people trying to help can have a decent crack of the whip.

His implication that people should only ask those questions if
they move in the company of experts in Debian or grub.

So that summary I wrote was to explain why I was still mystified as to
the nature of his problem and its "solution", and how the "L or M"
business might help with matters. Knowing what is on the screen when
he presses F12 might help; there again, it might not. On this Dell,
F12 gives you a chance to boot from HardDrive/CD/USB without having
to enter the CMOS and change the default priorities. It has no
choice of which sector is read on the device selected. Perhaps
Dells have changed. Maybe BIOS/UEFI has something to do without it.

So I wrote:

"I don't know what you see when you press F12, and I don't understand
what the "L or M" business is in times past."
which invites a reply without being a direct question (something AMcC
seems to take exception to, unless coming from "experts"; not me then).

I notice that AMcC has now written that his procedure is cumbersome
(though I still don't know what it is). In the next sentence, he
continues to blame the installer, and hopes it gets fixed.

Cheers,
David.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 08:57:19 Alan McConnell wrote:

> Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback
> against various insinuations that have been made.
>
Now I am going to push back Alan.

If you are going to come in here and berate folks about this and that, 
the first thing you need to do is to train your email agent

(wth is "X-Mailer: Zimbra 7.2.6_GA_2926 (ZimbraWebClient - GC46 
(Win)/7.2.6_GA_2926)" never heard of it)

to properly quote, and honor existing quotes, if for no other reason than 
to help us identify who wrote what.  That is what all those leading > 
and >> > are all about. It is also part of the email protocol that has 
existed since the late 80's of the last century.

> - Original Message -
Which I scrubbed because there are NO quotes in it other than what my 
email agent added.  Why they were totally removed I've no clue, but it 
marks your email agent as being seriously mis-configured, or was written 
by an idiot.

Please fix it to obey 30 year old email quoting standards.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
-- 
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Tuesday 13 September 2016 18:01:58 Alan McConnell wrote:
> > Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further
> > chastisement or smarm. Please help me to keep it!

What a pity you didn't!  What happened to your self control??

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Brian" <a...@cityscape.co.uk>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Tuesday, September 13, 2016 9:40:11 AM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 08:57:19 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback against
> various insinuations that have been made.  

Warning duly noted; most of this mail is snipped so we can concentrate
on the technical aspects of your issue.
 Excellent.


You were asked for some information. You declined to provide it. As a
route to solving a technical problem your response leaves a lot to be
desired.
 Did you read why I declined?  I repeat my reason for your benefit:
 getting information from my only partially installed Jessie means
 shutting down my Windoze OS(I'm writing this from my Windows OS),
 turning on my Jessie, and writing a bunch of detailed information on
 a piece of paper, shutting down Jessie and returning to Windoze and
 transcribing what my paper said to an E-mail.  That process requires
 a lot of error-prone steps, and you or someone else might have called
 for an iteration, which would have driven me up the wall.

The output of interest is from os-prober. You know what it, unless you
are so uninterested in seeking a solution you haven't even run it or are
keeping what it says to yourself.
 I ran os-prober.  I can't here reproduce what it gave me, but it
 didn't reveal the OS that came with the just purchased machine.
 Which leads me to my often-stated conclusion:  since the install
 program stated "No other OS can be found on this machine", the
 installer is broken.

You may be interested to know that the Debian Fairy has waved her magic
wand and made your machine dual bootable. From os-prober's changelog on
unstable:
 Good grief, Brian.  What I have is Jessie.  But it is good to
 know that attention is being paid to this issue, and the installer
 for stretch may be an improvement.

> Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement or 
> smarm.
> Please help me to keep it!

I don't do smarm. If you perceived what I wrote to be that, it reveals a
weakness in my irony, sarcasm and mild insults modules.
   I did perceive it.  Advice: delete your ISMI module and pay
 more attention to your courteous and helpful module.  Which I'm sure
 exists.

A final question:  I've used Wiktionary to learn that 'whinging' is the English
for what we Murricans call 'whining'.  Is it used a lot nowadays?  I don't 
recall
ever having heard it when I taught at Royal Holloway College back in 1967-68.

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Tue 13 Sep 2016 at 08:57:19 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback against
> various insinuations that have been made.  

Warning duly noted; most of this mail is snipped so we can concentrate
on the technical aspects of your issue.

[...Snippety-snip...]

> Again, for the third time:  I hope that an new release of the Debian 
> installation SW
> will be able to detect when another OS is already on the system, and that a 
> proper and
> simple procedure will be put in place for e.g. newbies to Linux or to 
> dual-bootable
> systems to be able to choose between the systems immediately after the 
> machine self-test.

You were asked for some information. You declined to provide it. As a
route to solving a technical problem your response leaves a lot to be
desired.

The output of interest is from os-prober. You know what it, unless you
are so uninterested in seeking a solution you haven't even run it or are
keeping what it says to yourself.

If you had clue and had provided a decent, useful response you would
then have been directed to read /usr/lib/os-probes/mounted/20microsoft.
The light would then have dawned (perhaps). All the time you would be
learning and helping yourself. But no - whinging wins out. Far easier
for you to that than think for yourself.

You may be interested to know that the Debian Fairy has waved her magic
wand and made your machine dual bootable. From os-prober's changelog on
unstable:

  * Add support for Windows 10 (otherwise reported as Windows Recovery
Environment). Thanks, Philipp Wolfer! (Closes: #801278).

 -- Cyril Brulebois   Thu, 08 Oct 2015 14:26:16 +0200

With this information your every desire can be realised. Your problem
now has a proper solution. Surely what you can do to have a dual boot
doesn't need spelling out?

> Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement or 
> smarm.
> Please help me to keep it!

I don't do smarm. If you perceived what I wrote to be that, it reveals a
weakness in my irony, sarcasm and mild insults modules.

-- 
Brian.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

Warning:  This E-mail is for the most part in the nature of a pushback against
various insinuations that have been made.  

- Original Message -
From: "Lisi Reisz" <lisi.re...@gmail.com>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Monday, September 12, 2016 5:38:56 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

On Monday 12 September 2016 19:14:53 Alan McConnell wrote:
> Maybe I should apologize for "hijacking a thread"?

Yes, you should.  It has left the person whose thread you have hijacked high 
and dry.  It is most definitely "not done" to hijack threads.  By those who 
care about etiquette and other people, that is.
  You have got to be kidding!  I have stolen(the meaning of "hijacking")
  nothing.  Nothing prevents you or anyone else from ignoring what I write 
or
  have written and concentrating on the other messages in this thread.

  You talk about etiquette.  I have, over the past twenty years, set up
  at least three E-lists; one about Linux(lwob), one about music(vlaviworld)
  and the third about politics(waifllc, using Meetup).  I never prescribed
  any form of behavior for my members, and I'm surprised that you take it on
  yourself to do so for debian-users.

  Besides: since I added "Problem solved" to the Subject line, I am now 
posting
  under a different thread.  However, you or anyone else are free to use it 
for
  further lessons in etiquette, or anything else you choose.
  

Brian was offering you a good technical solution that would actually have 
solved your problem, instead of a "cobble", which you say that Debian should 
fix.
   He was doing no such thing.  He asked a bunch of questions like "What 
was the
   version of Windoze I was using?" ! ? ! He offered no solution at all 
that improved
   on what I use.  I'll get to Brian more in a moment.

Even God is said only to help those who help themselves.
   I _have_ helped myself!  And I am fortunate that I have been able to 
draw the
   attention of a real expert, Felix Miata, who combines his expertize with 
an
   ability to read, and a reluctance to preach.  Would that you and Brian 
would
   emulate him.

On to Brian!  You, Brian, ask: was anyone impolite?  I was accused of being 
impolite and
I reject the accusation.  I will, however, remark that your series of 
"deconstructions"
verge on the smarmy.  Do you claim that they were useful, or even relevant?

And what am I, or anyone, to think of your assertions about "Debian Central" or 
"Abarrane"?
Is it your claim that such comments are useful, or relevant, or even polite?

Again, for the third time:  I hope that an new release of the Debian 
installation SW
will be able to detect when another OS is already on the system, and that a 
proper and
simple procedure will be put in place for e.g. newbies to Linux or to 
dual-bootable
systems to be able to choose between the systems immediately after the machine 
self-test.

Finally:  I have taken a resolution not to respond to further chastisement or 
smarm.
Please help me to keep it!

Best wishes, even to Lisi and Brian!

Alan

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Monday 12 September 2016 19:14:53 Alan McConnell wrote:
> Maybe I should apologize for "hijacking a thread"?

Yes, you should.  It has left the person whose thread you have hijacked high 
and dry.  It is most definitely "not done" to hijack threads.  By those who 
care about etiquette and other people, that is.

Brian was offering you a good technical solution that would actually have 
solved your problem, instead of a "cobble", which you say that Debian should 
fix.

Even God is said only to help those who help themselves.

Lisi.

PS I have been trying to help mudongliang, unsuccessfully.  But thereby hangs 
another thread.  Please someone else, his question has still not been 
answered.  Are all attempts to answer it being spam-checked out of 
existence??

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Mon 12 Sep 2016 at 14:14:53 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:

> From: "Felix Miata" 
> ...
> How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
> continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
> after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
> useful help?
> Hurrah for Felix!  He got it.

You are both on the same page, then. Keep together and ward off the
people who ask questions or request information. It will give you a
cosier world.
 
>   I don't know what I have to apologize for.  Did I say anything 
> impolite?  I'm not
>   conscious of having done so.  Maybe I should apologize for
>   "hijacking a thread"?

Was anyone at all impolite?

>   As Felix and maybe a few others have noticed, I can now log on to 
> either my Windoze
>   or to Jessie, which is what I originally inquired about.  I persist 
> in thinking 
>   that the procedure I am using is cumbersome, and I hope

You are quite correct - the procedure is cumbersome. In fact, it is
naff. But you have it as a "solution" and are happy with it and do not
want to alter it. Who are we to argue and try to seek a technical
solution?

>   that a new release of installation SW will a) be sure to detect 
> another OS during
>   the installation, and b) will ensure that grub puts a good 
> notice/question up on a
>   beginning screen for people to click on(or perhaps use the arrow 
> keys) to indicate
>   which OS they wish to boot.

We are working on it. Debian Central has realised that there are holes
in its installation for some users with names beginning with "Alan". A
fix will be sent out when we have dealt with Abarrane.

Meanwhile, follow the advice on -user. You seem to have ignored most of
it.
>   To conclude this topic:  the folks who think I'm rude or 
> uncooperative or both clearly
>   have the option to ignore in future anything/everything that I 
> write.  I hope they
>   will take advantage of this option.
> 
> Now I have a follow-on question:  I'd like to be able, from Jessie, to copy 
> files to and from my
> Windoze system.  I haven't really tried simply cd-ing to e.g. /dev/sda1, 
> which is the partition
> containing my Windoze stuff.  Is that what you dual OS users do?  is there 
> some subtle   mount
> command  that you use?   I shall be most grateful for any instructions, or 
> even suggestions.

Follow-on questions go in different threads. It keeps things tidy and
manageable. Please start a new one on this topic.

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Alan McConnell]

- Original Message -
From: "Felix Miata" <mrma...@earthlink.net>
To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
Sent: Sunday, September 11, 2016 10:14:26 PM
Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
...
>> Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
...
How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to 
continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours 
after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who provided 
useful help?
Hurrah for Felix!  He got it.

  I don't know what I have to apologize for.  Did I say anything 
impolite?  I'm not
  conscious of having done so.  Maybe I should apologize for "hijacking 
a thread"?

  As Felix and maybe a few others have noticed, I can now log on to 
either my Windoze
  or to Jessie, which is what I originally inquired about.  I persist 
in thinking 
  that the procedure I am using is cumbersome, and I hope
  that a new release of installation SW will a) be sure to detect 
another OS during
  the installation, and b) will ensure that grub puts a good 
notice/question up on a
  beginning screen for people to click on(or perhaps use the arrow 
keys) to indicate
  which OS they wish to boot.

  To conclude this topic:  the folks who think I'm rude or 
uncooperative or both clearly
  have the option to ignore in future anything/everything that I write. 
 I hope they
  will take advantage of this option.

Now I have a follow-on question:  I'd like to be able, from Jessie, to copy 
files to and from my
Windoze system.  I haven't really tried simply cd-ing to e.g. /dev/sda1, which 
is the partition
containing my Windoze stuff.  Is that what you dual OS users do?  is there some 
subtle   mount
command  that you use?   I shall be most grateful for any instructions, or even 
suggestions.

Best wishes to all,

Alan McConnell

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Lisi Reisz]

On Sunday 11 September 2016 20:51:50 Brian wrote:
> On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 15:17:00 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:
> > On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 11:13:45 -0400, Alan McConnell wrote:
> > > Addendum:  during my Jessie install, the install program commented at
> > > one point: "There doesn't seem to be any other OS on your system". 
> > > Jeez!!  I hope some maintainer reads this complaint and Debian  works
> > > hard to make sure that the
> >
> > What is the exact name and version of this OS which is not found?
> >  Windows 10.  If there is a more exact name, I don't know
> > it.
>
> Deconstruction of this statement follows:
>
>  I do not know. I am unable to extract information from any OS. But I am
>  really good at moaning about them. You will get no help from me, don't
>  bother me.
>
> > > operation of installing a second OS(Linux) on a Windoze box is as easy
> > > and error-proof as it is possible to make it.
> >
> > 1. As a user do
> >
> >  dpkg -l | grep grub
> >
> >Please post the output of this command.
> >
> > 2. Suppose there are four packages listed. As root do
> >
> >  apt-get --reinstall install 
> >
> >for each package
> >
> > is in the second column of the 'dpkg -l' output.
> >
> >So, for example
> >
> >  apt-get --reinstall install grub-common
> >  apt-get --reinstall install grub-pc
> >  apt-get --reinstall install grub-pc-bin
> >  apt-get --reinstall install grub2-common
> >
> >is what I would do on my machine. For the grub-pc reinstall please
> > post the lines which begin "Found ." in the output.
> >
> > 3. As root run the command
> >
> >  os-prober
> >
> >and post its output.
> >
> >  Why?  why all this?  What good will it do? to anyone?  To do
> > this I'd have to get out of this URL(mail.his.com), shut down my Windoze,
> > reboot to Jessie, copy the output you are requesting to a piece of paper,
> > and then get back here.(*)
>
> Deconstruction of this statement follows:
>
>   You are asking questions. Questions are awkward - you have to give
>   answers; I do not want to participate in giving answers. Just take
>   some notice of me and give me what I want without all this palaver.
>
> >  May I ask: are you the Debian installation maintainer?  if you
> > are, I'd be happy to work with you.
>
> Having chosen to post to debian-user you cannot even work with the
> process here. What chance would there be of a working relationship if
> you thought you were talking to the Debian Leader.
>
> > (*)  Many years ago, when I ran a dual boot machine of Linux and MS-DOS,
> > I used to be able to mount the MS-DOS partition from my Linux system, and
> > copy file to and from it. I'm going to try that, when next I (re)boot
> > into Jessie.
>
> Deconstruction of this statement follows:
>
>   Redirection. I've managed to avoid answering anything but I can still
>   go down fighting and introduce something irrelevant. Do I have to stew
>   in my own juice?

And to achieve all this rudeness he hijacked mudongliang's thread and as a 
result mudongliang has still had no answers.  :-(  But I'm forgetting.  
Nothing and no-one else matters compared with Alan. :-(

I'm off to try and answer mudongliang, but I fear that I can't because I don't 
think I know the answer.  But at least it should revive his thread.

Lisi

Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved

[Brian]

On Sun 11 Sep 2016 at 23:14:26 -0400, Felix Miata wrote:

> David Wright composed on 2016-09-11 21:44 (UTC-0500):
> ...
> >>Subject: Re: How to get Jessie to run at boot time -- Problem solved
> ...
> How is it beneficial to list anyone here or searching list archives to
> continue a thread by chastising an OP for being imperfect more than 12 hours
> after OP added string "solved" to the subject and thanked people who
> provided useful help?
> 
> https://lists.debian.org/debian-user/2016/09/msg00398.html

The "solution" is very suboptimal in the context of Debian and GRUB and
does not help anyone having the same problem, particularily if a bug is
involved.

(I do not know where you get the 12 hours from. bendel.debian.org sent
the mail to me at 15:14:19 + (UTC). My reply arrived at bendel by
18:32:58 + (UTC) on the same day. I also hadn't appreciated that
this list had a time limit set on replies sent to it).