Re: Help me Linux

[Neeraj Rawat]

Hi Piyush,

If you are in restrictive environment then it is always good to specify the
location so that people can help you with the resources, which you are not
aware of.

I can still understand that after doing CS, you are not well versed in any
field of CS, but then you had to put extra efforts. At times, you need to
put extra steps and there are many Linux institutes offering Linux courses
everywhere. Though I am still waiting for some Debian certifications to
launch.

You are not working in Linux field then how do you know about everyone
else? For any failed issue, you need to specify the error/message that
appear on the screen then only troubleshooting comes into picture. However
here is the step-by-step guide:

http://www.expertsgalaxy.com/2015/05/debian-linux-installation-procedure.html

Also if you search Google for best books/resources to learn Python and then
read 5-10 articles, then atleast start something instead of waiting for
that Perfect Guide. Microsoft is going OpenSource for quite long if you are
not aware and recently purchased GIThub if you know what does that mean in
the field of OpenSource.

Search well and post the failed error message properly, while seeking help
for any technical issue.

Regards

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 1:47 PM P M  wrote:

> Hey, this is Piyush M.
> I am a computer science graduate from 2015.
> It was 2009-10 when first time I heard about Linux. Although in my area
> there was only Microsoft but I managed to download Linux. My first Linux
> was ubuntu. I was very happy to see its function and its working. I enjoyed
> that time without having little knowledge about computer. Since then I feel
> my relationship with the Linux and open source and free software.
> Although right now I am using Windows but still I feel very enthusiastic
> and energetic with Linux; even I don't know what the reason is.
>
> The reason for this mail is, I am not really very expert or well versed in
> any computer language or any field of computer. But I feel strong
> connection and relationship with Linux. I also love Python programming
> language. Despite of this love and attraction and affection I was unable to
> learn anything because I wasn't having enough time and we people in India
> don't have that much Linux craze and courses available. In short due to no
> guidance I was unable to do anything and I am on the same position since
> last 9 years with only few improvements.
> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY. I NEVER USED DEBIAN.
> I believe whoever reading this mail is far more knowledgeable and
> experienced than me and having good knowledge of Linux. Please help me!
> suggest me what can I do? how should I proceed? how should I go further in
> the field of Linux? and what can I do with and how to go further in python?
> Here everywhere Microsoft is going on and no response for open source and
> LINUX is there, so please help me to clear my understanding, broaden the
> way of my seeing. I need clear conception of what I can do and what can be
> done. As I mentioned there is no guidance I have here. I can contribute 2
> hours daily along with the job and daily schedule. My love is python and
> Linux.
> My one more query is that there is no any alternative available in linux
> for Corel draw, MS office, video editing software. Although there are many
> claims of alternatives but the reality is harsh, they are not as simple and
> productive as the windows software. Please clear my view regarding this
> also.
>
> I just have downloaded kde manjaro and soon install it on my laptop to
> have new experience.
> I can understand this is very lengthy mail but its really important to get
> my doubts cleared and my vision broadened. Please reply me as soon as
> possible.
>
> Thanks for the time you spent on this mail. Will be happy to see you
> replied.
>

Re: Help me Linux

[Eric S Fraga]

On Wednesday, 31 Oct 2018 at 09:39, Dan Ritter wrote:
> It's not always the course or the professor that fails a
> student.

You can lead a horse to water...
-- 
Eric S Fraga via Emacs 27.0.50 & org 9.1.13 on Debian 9.5

Re: Help me Linux

[Reco]

Hi.

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 09:41:48AM -0400, Dan Ritter wrote:
> On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 04:38:53PM +0300, Reco wrote:
> > Hi.
> > 
> > On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 01:30:12PM +, Curt wrote:
> > > On 2018-10-31, songbird  wrote:
> > > > P M wrote:
> > > >
> > > >> Hey, this is Piyush M.
> > > >> I am a computer science graduate from 2015.
> > > >
> > > >   you were ripped off if you paid for that and the
> > > > institution which gave you that degree should be
> > > > discredited.
> > > >
> > > 
> > > Are you familiar with the chemical properties of lemon juice and the
> > > latter's eventual interactions with CCTV technology when applied to the
> > > facial epidermis?
> 
> Someone decided that putting lemon juice on your face would render it
> unrecognizable to cameras.
> 
> http://awesci.com/the-astonishingly-funny-story-of-mr-mcarthur-wheeler/
> 
> It's in the original Dunning-Kruger paper.

Thanks. That's the debian-user's best quality - you learn something new
every day ;)

Reco

Re: Help me Linux

[Curt]

On 2018-10-31, Reco  wrote:
>   Hi.
>
> On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 01:30:12PM +, Curt wrote:
>> On 2018-10-31, songbird  wrote:
>> > P M wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hey, this is Piyush M.
>> >> I am a computer science graduate from 2015.
>> >
>> >   you were ripped off if you paid for that and the
>> > institution which gave you that degree should be
>> > discredited.
>> >
>> 
>> Are you familiar with the chemical properties of lemon juice and the
>> latter's eventual interactions with CCTV technology when applied to the
>> facial epidermis?
>
> Hereby politely requesting translation to plain English.

I thought maybe songbird was an alias for McArthur Wheeler* and that I
could kind of flush him out with a pointed question.

*Failed bank robber and inspiration for the Dunning–Kruger effect (which 
would normally have been called the McArthur Wheeler effect if Dunning
and Kruger hadn't suffered from it (i.e. the effect) themselves.

> Reco
>
>


-- 
When you have fever you are heavy and light, you are small and swollen, you
climb endlessly a ladder which turns like a wheel. 
--Jean Rhys, Voyage in the Dark

Re: Help me Linux

[Dan Ritter]

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 04:38:53PM +0300, Reco wrote:
>   Hi.
> 
> On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 01:30:12PM +, Curt wrote:
> > On 2018-10-31, songbird  wrote:
> > > P M wrote:
> > >
> > >> Hey, this is Piyush M.
> > >> I am a computer science graduate from 2015.
> > >
> > >   you were ripped off if you paid for that and the
> > > institution which gave you that degree should be
> > > discredited.
> > >
> > 
> > Are you familiar with the chemical properties of lemon juice and the
> > latter's eventual interactions with CCTV technology when applied to the
> > facial epidermis?

Someone decided that putting lemon juice on your face would render it
unrecognizable to cameras.

http://awesci.com/the-astonishingly-funny-story-of-mr-mcarthur-wheeler/

It's in the original Dunning-Kruger paper.

-dsr-

Re: Help me Linux

[Dan Ritter]

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 08:17:13AM -0400, songbird wrote:
> >
> > The reason for this mail is, I am not really very expert or well versed in
> > any computer language or any field of computer.
> 
>   my statement above is based upon this sentence...

I went to a pretty good CS undergraduate program in the mid
1990s. It was fairly likely that a graduate would have most of
the skills you listed... and it was also plausible that a 
barely-scraping-by graduate had none of them.

One of the required senior level courses was a survey of
currently interesting topics in the current market. It ended
with presentations from each student on something that they
had researched.

A student prepared a discussion of artificial intelligence which
did not mention any statistical techniques, neural networks,
biology, expert systems, biology, or really, anything of actual
interest. Much of the time was taken up by movie clips from The
Lawnmower Man. The actual text was mostly about how scary AI is.

I asked the only question in the Q afterwards: "Could you
explain what the difference is between AI and VR?" Some
stammering followed.

It's not always the course or the professor that fails a
student.

-dsr-

Re: Help me Linux

[Reco]

Hi.

On Wed, Oct 31, 2018 at 01:30:12PM +, Curt wrote:
> On 2018-10-31, songbird  wrote:
> > P M wrote:
> >
> >> Hey, this is Piyush M.
> >> I am a computer science graduate from 2015.
> >
> >   you were ripped off if you paid for that and the
> > institution which gave you that degree should be
> > discredited.
> >
> 
> Are you familiar with the chemical properties of lemon juice and the
> latter's eventual interactions with CCTV technology when applied to the
> facial epidermis?

Hereby politely requesting translation to plain English.

Reco

Re: Help me Linux

[Curt]

On 2018-10-31, songbird  wrote:
> P M wrote:
>
>> Hey, this is Piyush M.
>> I am a computer science graduate from 2015.
>
>   you were ripped off if you paid for that and the
> institution which gave you that degree should be
> discredited.
>

Are you familiar with the chemical properties of lemon juice and the
latter's eventual interactions with CCTV technology when applied to the
facial epidermis?

-- 
When you have fever you are heavy and light, you are small and swollen, you
climb endlessly a ladder which turns like a wheel. 
--Jean Rhys, Voyage in the Dark

Re: Help me Linux

[songbird]

P M wrote:

> Hey, this is Piyush M.
> I am a computer science graduate from 2015.

  you were ripped off if you paid for that and the
institution which gave you that degree should be
discredited.


> It was 2009-10 when first time I heard about Linux. Although in my area
> there was only Microsoft but I managed to download Linux. My first Linux
> was ubuntu. I was very happy to see its function and its working. I enjoyed
> that time without having little knowledge about computer. Since then I feel
> my relationship with the Linux and open source and free software.
> Although right now I am using Windows but still I feel very enthusiastic
> and energetic with Linux; even I don't know what the reason is.
>
> The reason for this mail is, I am not really very expert or well versed in
> any computer language or any field of computer.

  my statement above is based upon this sentence...

  and yes, you can improve, so get back to work on 
what you are missing.

  year 1. basic computer hardware/software and at 
least a dozen languages from various families of 
languages so you get an idea of what is useful 
for what.

  year 2, add some theory on data structures and 
computational complexity.  basic networking.
graphics and graphic design.

  year 3, data bases, os's, basic components of 
software systems (editors, compilers, linkers,
loaders, file systems, etc)

  year 4, advanced computer architectures, 
multiprocessing, advanced networking

  good luck...

   you notice above i mention nothing about
MS or apps?  that's stuff on top of what you 
learn and is useful, but only if you want to do
that sort of development.

   and, yes, i know that many of the above topics
are worthy of a lifetime of study in and off
themselves, but a CS graduate should have at least
some idea of what they are about...

  all IMO,


  songbird

Re: Help me Linux

[Erik Christiansen]

On 31.10.18 11:49, Ben Caradoc-Davies wrote:
> On 30/10/2018 21:17, P M wrote:
> > Although right now I am using Windows but still I feel very enthusiastic
> > and energetic with Linux; even I don't know what the reason is.
> 
> You are feeling the potential of open source: a community open to all and
> your freedom to change anything. Even Microsoft is embracing it.
> 
> > I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY. I NEVER USED DEBIAN.
> 
> Debian is harder to install than Ubuntu because it gives you more choice.
> Choice reduces happiness:
> https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy

For the use case, ubuntu might be a good lead-in for confidence
building. I once read on luv-main, in slightly longer form:

"My grandmother currently runs ubuntu. This was not my doing, but she
managed to wipe her windows and install it accidentally when someone
handed her the live CD to deal with a windows problem she was having.
The computer asked her to do things. So she did."

Erik

-- 
Debian is for people who can read man pages.
  Robert Moonen (on luv-main ML)

Re: Help me Linux

[Ben Caradoc-Davies]

On 30/10/2018 21:17, P M wrote:

Although right now I am using Windows but still I feel very enthusiastic
and energetic with Linux; even I don't know what the reason is.


You are feeling the potential of open source: a community open to all 
and your freedom to change anything. Even Microsoft is embracing it.



I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY. I NEVER USED DEBIAN.


Debian is harder to install than Ubuntu because it gives you more 
choice. Choice reduces happiness:

https://www.ted.com/talks/dan_gilbert_asks_why_are_we_happy

But choice gives you power. Try installing a minimal Debian in a virtual 
machine. Try adding more packages and a desktop environment.



suggest me what can I do? how should I proceed? how should I go further in
the field of Linux? and what can I do with and how to go further in python?


I recommend learning Linux and Python by using them wherever possible. 
What are your areas of interest? Games? Science? You could start a tiny 
Python project. A great way to learn from others is to contribute to an 
open source project.



My one more query is that there is no any alternative available in linux
for Corel draw, MS office, video editing software. Although there are many
claims of alternatives but the reality is harsh, they are not as simple and
productive as the windows software. Please clear my view regarding this
also.


I meet all my office needs with LibreOffice. If you prefer Windows 
offerings, you can run Debian in a virtual machine and have the best of 
both worlds.


Kind regards,

--
Ben Caradoc-Davies 
Director
Transient Software Limited 
New Zealand

Re: Help me Linux

[Felmon Davis]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, Curt wrote:


On 2018-10-30, Felmon Davis  wrote:

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, Dan Ritter wrote:


People who have no experience doing a thing believe that the
thing is hard.


for a different perspective, look up "Dunning-Kruger Effect."



I did and I think Dunning and Kruger are probably the best examples of
their own eponymous syndrome,


does this mean they don't know as much as they think they do?

which was cleverly derived from the seminal case of failed bank 
robber McArthur Wheeler.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

McArthur Wheeler, who robbed banks with his face covered with lemon
juice, which he believed would make it invisible to the surveillance
cameras. This belief was based on his misunderstanding of the chemical
properties of lemon juice...

Based on his misunderstanding of the chemical properties of lemon juice!

How do you say *canular* in English, anyway?


I think I know.

sounds like you think Dunning and Kruger are wearing lemon juice 
masks.


f.

--
Felmon Davis

Re: Help me Linux

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 October 2018 13:29:24 Brian wrote:

> On Tue 30 Oct 2018 at 12:45:21 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 30 October 2018 11:20:28 Ric Moore wrote:
> > > On 10/30/18 10:55 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday 30 October 2018 10:37:03 Ric Moore wrote:
> > > >> On 10/30/18 9:16 AM, Will Mengarini wrote:
> > > >>>> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY.  I
> > > >>>> NEVER USED DEBIAN. I believe whoever reading this mail is far
> > > >>>> more knowledgeable and experienced than me and having good
> > > >>>> knowledge of Linux.  Please help me!
> > > >>
> > > >> First, the entire notion of an email list is to have a
> > > >> searchable problem which leads to a "SOLVED" resolution. Your
> > > >> subject line needs to be relevant to your problem for others
> > > >> after you to find it. Otherwise every plea for "Help me!"
> > > >> demands that you personally only benefit for the help given.
> > > >> Learn how to ask for help.
> > > >> https://unix.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask
> > > >> ...otherwise you are wasting the list resources. Ric
> > > >
> > > > +1. From one of the lists more prolific offenders, me.
> > >
> > > We;; you have been "grandfathered" in! Ric
> >
> > Both of us, but at 84, I'm still walking, short distances anyway,
> > usually with a stick though. But one Miller64 a day sure is hard on
> > a would be alky. Is good bbq sauce still your downfall?
> >
> > Sorry we ran off topic here folks, but I've known Ric for a lot
> > longer than he's been subbed to _this_ list.  And we're almost
> > neighbors, but the mountains get in the way. Mountains covered in
> > roads laid out by a copperhead, with a sidewinder someplace in its
> > dna. You can drive at the roads comfortable speed and get 12 mpg at
> > 35 mph peak, or you can get in a hurry showing somebody how its
> > done, and hit 50 mph at 3 mpg. BTDT, steering with the throttle. 
> > Gas stations too far apart too, good thing that 83 ford 4wd pickup
> > had dual tanks in 1986.
>
> You are incorrigible!
>
And at times proud of it.

> Please do not take this as encouragement to post further off-topic.
> Still, I have learnt a lot from your posts - mainly in the "how not
> to do it" category. :)

But they can be very educational too, if one is willing to try. But thats 
up to you.

> Cheers,
>
> Brian.



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Re: Help me Linux

[Brian]

On Tue 30 Oct 2018 at 12:45:21 -0400, Gene Heskett wrote:

> On Tuesday 30 October 2018 11:20:28 Ric Moore wrote:
> 
> > On 10/30/18 10:55 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 30 October 2018 10:37:03 Ric Moore wrote:
> > >> On 10/30/18 9:16 AM, Will Mengarini wrote:
> > >>>> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY.  I NEVER
> > >>>> USED DEBIAN. I believe whoever reading this mail is far more
> > >>>> knowledgeable and experienced than me and having good knowledge
> > >>>> of Linux.  Please help me!
> > >>
> > >> First, the entire notion of an email list is to have a searchable
> > >> problem which leads to a "SOLVED" resolution. Your subject line
> > >> needs to be relevant to your problem for others after you to find
> > >> it. Otherwise every plea for "Help me!" demands that you personally
> > >> only benefit for the help given. Learn how to ask for help.
> > >> https://unix.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask
> > >> ...otherwise you are wasting the list resources. Ric
> > >
> > > +1. From one of the lists more prolific offenders, me.
> >
> > We;; you have been "grandfathered" in! Ric
> 
> Both of us, but at 84, I'm still walking, short distances anyway, usually 
> with a stick though. But one Miller64 a day sure is hard on a would be 
> alky. Is good bbq sauce still your downfall?
> 
> Sorry we ran off topic here folks, but I've known Ric for a lot longer 
> than he's been subbed to _this_ list.  And we're almost neighbors, but 
> the mountains get in the way. Mountains covered in roads laid out by a 
> copperhead, with a sidewinder someplace in its dna. You can drive at the 
> roads comfortable speed and get 12 mpg at 35 mph peak, or you can get in 
> a hurry showing somebody how its done, and hit 50 mph at 3 mpg. BTDT, 
> steering with the throttle.  Gas stations too far apart too, good thing 
> that 83 ford 4wd pickup had dual tanks in 1986.

You are incorrigible!

Please do not take this as encouragement to post further off-topic.
Still, I have learnt a lot from your posts - mainly in the "how not
to do it" category. :)

Cheers,

Brian.

Re: Help me Linux and now waaaay off topic

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 October 2018 12:55:14 Jude DaShiell wrote:

> On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 12:45:21
> > From: Gene Heskett 
> > To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> > Subject: Re: Help me Linux
> > Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 16:46:11 + (UTC)
> > Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> >
> > On Tuesday 30 October 2018 11:20:28 Ric Moore wrote:
> > > On 10/30/18 10:55 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > > On Tuesday 30 October 2018 10:37:03 Ric Moore wrote:
> > > >> On 10/30/18 9:16 AM, Will Mengarini wrote:
> > > >>>> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY.  I
> > > >>>> NEVER USED DEBIAN. I believe whoever reading this mail is far
> > > >>>> more knowledgeable and experienced than me and having good
> > > >>>> knowledge of Linux.  Please help me!
> > > >>
> > > >> First, the entire notion of an email list is to have a
> > > >> searchable problem which leads to a "SOLVED" resolution. Your
> > > >> subject line needs to be relevant to your problem for others
> > > >> after you to find it. Otherwise every plea for "Help me!"
> > > >> demands that you personally only benefit for the help given.
> > > >> Learn how to ask for help.
> > > >> https://unix.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask
> > > >> ...otherwise you are wasting the list resources. Ric
> > > >
> > > > +1. From one of the lists more prolific offenders, me.
> > >
> > > We;; you have been "grandfathered" in! Ric
> >
> > Both of us, but at 84, I'm still walking, short distances anyway,
> > usually with a stick though. But one Miller64 a day sure is hard on
> > a would be alky. Is good bbq sauce still your downfall?
> >
> > Sorry we ran off topic here folks, but I've known Ric for a lot
> > longer than he's been subbed to _this_ list.  And we're almost
> > neighbors, but the mountains get in the way. Mountains covered in
> > roads laid out by a copperhead, with a sidewinder someplace in its
> > dna. You can drive at the roads comfortable speed and get 12 mpg at
> > 35 mph peak, or you can get in a hurry showing somebody how its
> > done, and hit 50 mph at 3 mpg. BTDT, steering with the throttle. 
> > Gas stations too far apart too, good thing that 83 ford 4wd pickup
> > had dual tanks in 1986.
>
> Based on the fact the producers of the Movie Titanic decided against
> windows and chose and used gimp for their graphics work gimp can
> probably eat corel draw's lunch and make corel draw like it. 
> Fortunately, lots of youtube videos are available so checking these
> out can give you an idea how effective gimp will be to cover your use
> cases.
> Two of the apps I have on my iphone which may also be available on
> android if you use android are mini cards and kahn academy.  One or
> both may offer some help with mastering python.  Other python tutorial
> apps exist on the iPhone as well some for small fees and some others
> for larger fees.
> I can't say what goes on on Android since I don't use that operating
> system regularly enough to check these things out.

A word to those wise enough:

Good thing to stay away from, anything running android. One of their 
apps, Samsung-Pay who apparently wants to be a paypal, is who phished me 
on my landline 3 weeks ago, forceing me to stop that card and get a new 
one.  They already knew _everything_ but the 3 digit number on the back 
of the card! Fortunately, I was quick enough they didn't get anything.

>
> --



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Re: Help me Linux

[Jude DaShiell]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, Gene Heskett wrote:

> Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 12:45:21
> From: Gene Heskett 
> To: debian-user@lists.debian.org
> Subject: Re: Help me Linux
> Resent-Date: Tue, 30 Oct 2018 16:46:11 + (UTC)
> Resent-From: debian-user@lists.debian.org
>
> On Tuesday 30 October 2018 11:20:28 Ric Moore wrote:
>
> > On 10/30/18 10:55 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 30 October 2018 10:37:03 Ric Moore wrote:
> > >> On 10/30/18 9:16 AM, Will Mengarini wrote:
> > >>>> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY.  I NEVER
> > >>>> USED DEBIAN. I believe whoever reading this mail is far more
> > >>>> knowledgeable and experienced than me and having good knowledge
> > >>>> of Linux.  Please help me!
> > >>
> > >> First, the entire notion of an email list is to have a searchable
> > >> problem which leads to a "SOLVED" resolution. Your subject line
> > >> needs to be relevant to your problem for others after you to find
> > >> it. Otherwise every plea for "Help me!" demands that you personally
> > >> only benefit for the help given. Learn how to ask for help.
> > >> https://unix.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask
> > >> ...otherwise you are wasting the list resources. Ric
> > >
> > > +1. From one of the lists more prolific offenders, me.
> >
> > We;; you have been "grandfathered" in! Ric
>
> Both of us, but at 84, I'm still walking, short distances anyway, usually
> with a stick though. But one Miller64 a day sure is hard on a would be
> alky. Is good bbq sauce still your downfall?
>
> Sorry we ran off topic here folks, but I've known Ric for a lot longer
> than he's been subbed to _this_ list.  And we're almost neighbors, but
> the mountains get in the way. Mountains covered in roads laid out by a
> copperhead, with a sidewinder someplace in its dna. You can drive at the
> roads comfortable speed and get 12 mpg at 35 mph peak, or you can get in
> a hurry showing somebody how its done, and hit 50 mph at 3 mpg. BTDT,
> steering with the throttle.  Gas stations too far apart too, good thing
> that 83 ford 4wd pickup had dual tanks in 1986.
>
Based on the fact the producers of the Movie Titanic decided against
windows and chose and used gimp for their graphics work gimp can probably
eat corel draw's lunch and make corel draw like it.  Fortunately, lots of
youtube videos are available so checking these out can give you an idea
how effective gimp will be to cover your use cases.
Two of the apps I have on my iphone which may also be available on
android if you use android are mini cards and kahn academy.  One or both
may offer some help with mastering python.  Other python tutorial apps
exist on the iPhone as well some for small fees and some others for
larger fees.
I can't say what goes on on Android since I don't use that operating
system regularly enough to check these things out.

>

--

Re: Help me Linux

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 October 2018 11:20:28 Ric Moore wrote:

> On 10/30/18 10:55 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> > On Tuesday 30 October 2018 10:37:03 Ric Moore wrote:
> >> On 10/30/18 9:16 AM, Will Mengarini wrote:
> >>>> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY.  I NEVER
> >>>> USED DEBIAN. I believe whoever reading this mail is far more
> >>>> knowledgeable and experienced than me and having good knowledge
> >>>> of Linux.  Please help me!
> >>
> >> First, the entire notion of an email list is to have a searchable
> >> problem which leads to a "SOLVED" resolution. Your subject line
> >> needs to be relevant to your problem for others after you to find
> >> it. Otherwise every plea for "Help me!" demands that you personally
> >> only benefit for the help given. Learn how to ask for help.
> >> https://unix.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask
> >> ...otherwise you are wasting the list resources. Ric
> >
> > +1. From one of the lists more prolific offenders, me.
>
> We;; you have been "grandfathered" in! Ric

Both of us, but at 84, I'm still walking, short distances anyway, usually 
with a stick though. But one Miller64 a day sure is hard on a would be 
alky. Is good bbq sauce still your downfall?

Sorry we ran off topic here folks, but I've known Ric for a lot longer 
than he's been subbed to _this_ list.  And we're almost neighbors, but 
the mountains get in the way. Mountains covered in roads laid out by a 
copperhead, with a sidewinder someplace in its dna. You can drive at the 
roads comfortable speed and get 12 mpg at 35 mph peak, or you can get in 
a hurry showing somebody how its done, and hit 50 mph at 3 mpg. BTDT, 
steering with the throttle.  Gas stations too far apart too, good thing 
that 83 ford 4wd pickup had dual tanks in 1986.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Re: Help me Linux

[rhkramer]

On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 04:17:05 AM P M wrote:
> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY. I NEVER USED DEBIAN.
> I believe whoever reading this mail is far more knowledgeable and
> experienced than me and having good knowledge of Linux. Please help me!

Sort of on a different note, I don't know where you live (India, maybe), but 
why don't you search for a Linux User's Group near you (if you live in India, 
try [LUG India].

There might be one close enough to you that you can get some hands on help.

Re: Help me Linux

[Curt]

On 2018-10-30, Felmon Davis  wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, Dan Ritter wrote:
>
>> People who have no experience doing a thing believe that the
>> thing is hard.
>
> for a different perspective, look up "Dunning-Kruger Effect."
>

I did and I think Dunning and Kruger are probably the best examples of
their own eponymous syndrome, which was cleverly derived from the
seminal case of failed bank robber McArthur Wheeler.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect

 McArthur Wheeler, who robbed banks with his face covered with lemon
 juice, which he believed would make it invisible to the surveillance
 cameras. This belief was based on his misunderstanding of the chemical
 properties of lemon juice...

Based on his misunderstanding of the chemical properties of lemon juice!

How do you say *canular* in English, anyway?

-- 
When you have fever you are heavy and light, you are small and swollen, you
climb endlessly a ladder which turns like a wheel. 
--Jean Rhys, Voyage in the Dark

Re: Help me Linux

[Ric Moore]

On 10/30/18 10:55 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:

On Tuesday 30 October 2018 10:37:03 Ric Moore wrote:


On 10/30/18 9:16 AM, Will Mengarini wrote:

I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY.  I NEVER
USED DEBIAN. I believe whoever reading this mail is far more
knowledgeable and experienced than me and having good knowledge of
Linux.  Please help me!


First, the entire notion of an email list is to have a searchable
problem which leads to a "SOLVED" resolution. Your subject line needs
to be relevant to your problem for others after you to find it.
Otherwise every plea for "Help me!" demands that you personally only
benefit for the help given. Learn how to ask for help.
https://unix.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask
...otherwise you are wasting the list resources. Ric


+1. From one of the lists more prolific offenders, me.



We;; you have been "grandfathered" in! Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: Help me Linux

[Felmon Davis]

On Tue, 30 Oct 2018, Dan Ritter wrote:


People who have no experience doing a thing believe that the
thing is hard.


for a different perspective, look up "Dunning-Kruger Effect."

--
Felmon Davis

Re: Help me Linux

[Greg Wooledge]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 09:53:59AM -0500, Kent West wrote:
> On 10/30/18 3:17 AM, P M wrote:
> > Hey, this is Piyush M.
> >
> > I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY. I NEVER USED
> > DEBIAN.
> 
> I suggest you try again, and take notes if necessary, and ask this list
> when you run into an issue, making sure to be specific about what errors
> are listed, when, after doing what. (Be sure to use descriptive subject
> lines on your emails, so that two years from now when someone is
> searching on "How to fix X", they don't miss it because it's buried in a
> mail with a non-meaningful subject line like "I'm having a problem".)
> 
> Installing Debian is the first thing for you to accomplish. After that,
> the other issues in your email can be addressed.

Also be sure to say what kind of machine you're installing on (exact
model number if possible, or what kind of virtual machine it is, if
you're installing virtually), which installer you're using, whether
you're attempting to use wireless networking during the installation,
and so on.

I'll skip forward a bit and say that if this is an attempted LAPTOP
installation, then you probably want to use the unofficial installer
images that include non-free firmware.  Most laptops have hardware
(especially the wireless network interfaces) that won't work with only
free drivers and firmware.

http://cdimage.debian.org/cdimage/unofficial/non-free/cd-including-firmware/current/

Free software purists may of course choose not to use these images
because they include non-free firmware.  In such cases, I would advise
not using a laptop unless it is custom-built for Freedom.

Re: Help me Linux

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 30 October 2018 10:37:03 Ric Moore wrote:

> On 10/30/18 9:16 AM, Will Mengarini wrote:
> >> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY.  I NEVER
> >> USED DEBIAN. I believe whoever reading this mail is far more
> >> knowledgeable and experienced than me and having good knowledge of
> >> Linux.  Please help me!
>
> First, the entire notion of an email list is to have a searchable
> problem which leads to a "SOLVED" resolution. Your subject line needs
> to be relevant to your problem for others after you to find it.
> Otherwise every plea for "Help me!" demands that you personally only
> benefit for the help given. Learn how to ask for help.
> https://unix.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask
> ...otherwise you are wasting the list resources. Ric

+1. From one of the lists more prolific offenders, me.

One does need to be able to state the problem without it getting to the 
TL;DR category.

-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page <http://geneslinuxbox.net:6309/gene>

Re: Help me Linux

[Kent West]

On 10/30/18 3:17 AM, P M wrote:
> Hey, this is Piyush M.
>
> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY. I NEVER USED
> DEBIAN.


I suggest you try again, and take notes if necessary, and ask this list
when you run into an issue, making sure to be specific about what errors
are listed, when, after doing what. (Be sure to use descriptive subject
lines on your emails, so that two years from now when someone is
searching on "How to fix X", they don't miss it because it's buried in a
mail with a non-meaningful subject line like "I'm having a problem".)

Installing Debian is the first thing for you to accomplish. After that,
the other issues in your email can be addressed.


-- 
Kent West<")))><
Technology Support
Abilene Christian University
Westing Peacefully - http://kentwest.blogspot.com

Re: Help me Linux

[Ric Moore]

On 10/30/18 9:16 AM, Will Mengarini wrote:

I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY.  I NEVER USED DEBIAN.
I believe whoever reading this mail is far more knowledgeable and
experienced than me and having good knowledge of Linux.  Please help me!


First, the entire notion of an email list is to have a searchable 
problem which leads to a "SOLVED" resolution. Your subject line needs to 
be relevant to your problem for others after you to find it. Otherwise 
every plea for "Help me!" demands that you personally only benefit for 
the help given. Learn how to ask for help.

https://unix.stackexchange.com/help/how-to-ask
...otherwise you are wasting the list resources. Ric


--
My father, Victor Moore (Vic) used to say:
"There are two Great Sins in the world...
..the Sin of Ignorance, and the Sin of Stupidity.
Only the former may be overcome." R.I.P. Dad.
http://linuxcounter.net/user/44256.html

Re: Help me Linux

[Carl Fink]

Pardon my jumping in late and piggybacking on Will's message.

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 06:16:17AM -0700, Will Mengarini wrote:

> > [...] there is no any alternative available in Linux
> > for Corel draw [or] video editing software.
> 
> I wonder whether some of the problems you use those applications
> to solve could be solved instead by coding Python scripts.  At
> first the change in strategy would feel cognitively disruptive,
> but eventually should become more powerful; compare switching from
> composing a GUI layout with a visual tool to using Tkinter.pack().

There are both, though, for instance Inkscape and Cinelerra or avidemux. 

Piyush wrote:

> > My one more query is that there is no any alternative available in linux
> > for Corel draw, MS office, video editing software. Although there are many
> > claims of alternatives but the reality is harsh, they are not as simple and
> > productive as the windows software. Please clear my view regarding this
> > also.

As Will wrote, it depends on what you're trying to do. Can you say exactly
what you want to do, that the Linux applications can't do, or that are more
difficult with Linux tools? The FOSS philosophy says that if you find flaws in a
Free Software project, the polite and useful reaction is to report the issue
to the developers so that they can fix it.
-- 
Carl Fink   nitpick...@nitpicking.com 

Read John Grant's book, Corrupted Science: http://a.co/9UsUoGu 
Dedicated to ... Carl Fink!

Re: Help me Linux

[Will Mengarini]

> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY.  I NEVER USED DEBIAN.
> I believe whoever reading this mail is far more knowledgeable and
> experienced than me and having good knowledge of Linux.  Please help me!

Studying <http://www.catb.org/esr/faqs/smart-questions.html> will
help you interact more effectively here.  A translation into Hindi
is at <http://kntuniversity.org/how-to-ask-questions-the-smart-way/>.

> [...] there is no any alternative available in Linux
> for Corel draw [or] video editing software.

I wonder whether some of the problems you use those applications
to solve could be solved instead by coding Python scripts.  At
first the change in strategy would feel cognitively disruptive,
but eventually should become more powerful; compare switching from
composing a GUI layout with a visual tool to using Tkinter.pack().

We might have more specific ideas if we saw some examples
of the problems you use those applications to solve.

> [...] I can contribute 2 hours daily [...]

That should be enough for steady significant progress.

Full quote for reference:
* P M  [18-10/30=Tu 13:47 +0530]:
> Hey, this is Piyush M.
> I am a computer science graduate from 2015.
> It was 2009-10 when first time I heard about Linux. Although in my area
> there was only Microsoft but I managed to download Linux. My first Linux
> was ubuntu. I was very happy to see its function and its working. I enjoyed
> that time without having little knowledge about computer. Since then I feel
> my relationship with the Linux and open source and free software.
> Although right now I am using Windows but still I feel very enthusiastic
> and energetic with Linux; even I don't know what the reason is.
> 
> The reason for this mail is, I am not really very expert or well versed in
> any computer language or any field of computer. But I feel strong
> connection and relationship with Linux. I also love Python programming
> language. Despite of this love and attraction and affection I was unable to
> learn anything because I wasn't having enough time and we people in India
> don't have that much Linux craze and courses available. In short due to no
> guidance I was unable to do anything and I am on the same position since
> last 9 years with only few improvements.
> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY. I NEVER USED DEBIAN.
> I believe whoever reading this mail is far more knowledgeable and
> experienced than me and having good knowledge of Linux. Please help me!
> suggest me what can I do? how should I proceed? how should I go further in
> the field of Linux? and what can I do with and how to go further in python?
> Here everywhere Microsoft is going on and no response for open source and
> LINUX is there, so please help me to clear my understanding, broaden the
> way of my seeing. I need clear conception of what I can do and what can be
> done. As I mentioned there is no guidance I have here. I can contribute 2
> hours daily along with the job and daily schedule. My love is python and
> Linux.
> My one more query is that there is no any alternative available in linux
> for Corel draw, MS office, video editing software. Although there are many
> claims of alternatives but the reality is harsh, they are not as simple and
> productive as the windows software. Please clear my view regarding this
> also.
> 
> I just have downloaded kde manjaro and soon install it on my laptop to have
> new experience.
> I can understand this is very lengthy mail but its really important to get
> my doubts cleared and my vision broadened. Please reply me as soon as
> possible.
> 
> Thanks for the time you spent on this mail. Will be happy to see you
> replied.

Re: Help me Linux

[Richard Owlett]

On 10/30/2018 06:54 AM, Dan Ritter wrote:

[snip]

People who are used to doing things in a certain way tend to
believe that it is the only way, or the best way.


*ROFL* !
I've seen a tag line saying "Universal advice: Don't do that."

Re: Help me Linux

[Dan Ritter]

On Tue, Oct 30, 2018 at 01:47:05PM +0530, P M wrote:
> 
> The reason for this mail is, I am not really very expert or well versed in
> any computer language or any field of computer. But I feel strong
> connection and relationship with Linux. I also love Python programming
> language. Despite of this love and attraction and affection I was unable to
> learn anything because I wasn't having enough time and we people in India
> don't have that much Linux craze and courses available. In short due to no
> guidance I was unable to do anything and I am on the same position since
> last 9 years with only few improvements.

We all start at zero.

> I believe whoever reading this mail is far more knowledgeable and
> experienced than me and having good knowledge of Linux. Please help me!
> suggest me what can I do? how should I proceed? how should I go further in
> the field of Linux? and what can I do with and how to go further in python?

You need to have a goal; something that you want to accomplish.
"Go further" is not a goal.

> way of my seeing. I need clear conception of what I can do and what can be
> done. 

Everything that can be done with a computer, can be done with Linux.

> My one more query is that there is no any alternative available in linux
> for Corel draw, MS office, video editing software. Although there are many
> claims of alternatives but the reality is harsh, they are not as simple and
> productive as the windows software. Please clear my view regarding this
> also.

People who have no experience doing a thing believe that the
thing is hard.

People who are used to doing things in a certain way tend to
believe that it is the only way, or the best way.

-dsr-

Re: Help me Linux

[vipul kumar]

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 1:47 PM, P M  wrote:

> Hey, this is Piyush M.
> I am a computer science graduate from 2015.
> It was 2009-10 when first time I heard about Linux. Although in my area there 
> was only Microsoft but I managed to download Linux. My first Linux was 
> ubuntu. I was very happy to see its function and its working. I enjoyed that 
> time without having little knowledge about computer. Since then I feel my 
> relationship with the Linux and open source and free software.
> Although right now I am using Windows but still I feel very enthusiastic and 
> energetic with Linux; even I don't know what the reason is.
>
> The reason for this mail is, I am not really very expert or well versed in 
> any computer language or any field of computer. But I feel strong connection 
> and relationship with Linux. I also love Python programming language. Despite 
> of this love and attraction and affection I was unable to learn anything 
> because I wasn't having enough time and we people in India don't have that 
> much Linux craze and courses available. In short due to no guidance I was 
> unable to do anything and I am on the same position since last 9 years with 
> only few improvements.
> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY. I NEVER USED DEBIAN.
> I believe whoever reading this mail is far more knowledgeable and experienced 
> than me and having good knowledge of Linux. Please help me! suggest me what 
> can I do? how should I proceed? how should I go further in the field of 
> Linux? and what can I do with and how to go further in python? Here 
> everywhere Microsoft is going on and no response for open source and LINUX is 
> there, so please help me to clear my understanding, broaden the way of my 
> seeing. I need clear conception of what I can do and what can be done. As I 
> mentioned there is no guidance I have here. I can contribute 2 hours daily 
> along with the job and daily schedule. My love is python and Linux.
> My one more query is that there is no any alternative available in linux for 
> Corel draw, MS office, video editing software. Although there are many claims 
> of alternatives but the reality is harsh, they are not as simple and 
> productive as the windows software. Please clear my view regarding this also.
>
> I just have downloaded kde manjaro and soon install it on my laptop to have 
> new experience.
> I can understand this is very lengthy mail but its really important to get my 
> doubts cleared and my vision broadened. Please reply me as soon as possible.
>
> Thanks for the time you spent on this mail. Will be happy to see you replied.

If you're novice to Linux, this course ( 
https://www.edx.org/course/introduction-to-linux ) is worth considering. And if 
you're facing any error or problem then search for solution on internet (most 
of them are already asked by someone on stackexchange network or forums) or ask 
on mailing list if you're not getting any answer and make some friends who're 
using linux.

"I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY."
Anyone cannot help you until and unless you don't tell what's your problem.

Re: Help me Linux

[john doe]

On 10/30/2018 9:17 AM, P M wrote:
> Hey, this is Piyush M.
> I am a computer science graduate from 2015.
> It was 2009-10 when first time I heard about Linux. Although in my area
> there was only Microsoft but I managed to download Linux. My first Linux
> was ubuntu. I was very happy to see its function and its working. I enjoyed
> that time without having little knowledge about computer. Since then I feel
> my relationship with the Linux and open source and free software.
> Although right now I am using Windows but still I feel very enthusiastic
> and energetic with Linux; even I don't know what the reason is.
> 
> The reason for this mail is, I am not really very expert or well versed in
> any computer language or any field of computer. But I feel strong
> connection and relationship with Linux. I also love Python programming
> language. Despite of this love and attraction and affection I was unable to
> learn anything because I wasn't having enough time and we people in India
> don't have that much Linux craze and courses available. In short due to no
> guidance I was unable to do anything and I am on the same position since
> last 9 years with only few improvements.
> I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY. I NEVER USED DEBIAN.

We can not help you if we do not know what error(s) you encountered.
Given that you're stuck on Windows you might consider virtualisation.

-- 
John Doe

Help me Linux

[P M]

Hey, this is Piyush M.
I am a computer science graduate from 2015.
It was 2009-10 when first time I heard about Linux. Although in my area
there was only Microsoft but I managed to download Linux. My first Linux
was ubuntu. I was very happy to see its function and its working. I enjoyed
that time without having little knowledge about computer. Since then I feel
my relationship with the Linux and open source and free software.
Although right now I am using Windows but still I feel very enthusiastic
and energetic with Linux; even I don't know what the reason is.

The reason for this mail is, I am not really very expert or well versed in
any computer language or any field of computer. But I feel strong
connection and relationship with Linux. I also love Python programming
language. Despite of this love and attraction and affection I was unable to
learn anything because I wasn't having enough time and we people in India
don't have that much Linux craze and courses available. In short due to no
guidance I was unable to do anything and I am on the same position since
last 9 years with only few improvements.
I TRIED TO INSTALL DEBIAN MANY TIMES BUT FAILED BADLY. I NEVER USED DEBIAN.
I believe whoever reading this mail is far more knowledgeable and
experienced than me and having good knowledge of Linux. Please help me!
suggest me what can I do? how should I proceed? how should I go further in
the field of Linux? and what can I do with and how to go further in python?
Here everywhere Microsoft is going on and no response for open source and
LINUX is there, so please help me to clear my understanding, broaden the
way of my seeing. I need clear conception of what I can do and what can be
done. As I mentioned there is no guidance I have here. I can contribute 2
hours daily along with the job and daily schedule. My love is python and
Linux.
My one more query is that there is no any alternative available in linux
for Corel draw, MS office, video editing software. Although there are many
claims of alternatives but the reality is harsh, they are not as simple and
productive as the windows software. Please clear my view regarding this
also.

I just have downloaded kde manjaro and soon install it on my laptop to have
new experience.
I can understand this is very lengthy mail but its really important to get
my doubts cleared and my vision broadened. Please reply me as soon as
possible.

Thanks for the time you spent on this mail. Will be happy to see you
replied.

Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Joseph Haig]

Sorry, been away for a bit and only just managing to catch up (hence
the reply to a 10-day-old post).

--- Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Lots of folks like Ubuntu.
 
 I've heard a lot of good things about Ubuntu, though I've never
 used it. I've heard two bad(?) things about Ubuntu. One is that
 it, like Mandrake, has a semi-commercial air to it, and some
 suppose that it might turn commercial some time or other.
 The other is that it may be difficult to migrate from Ubuntu
 to some other distro, as it's somewhat non-stock with some
 kernel and other changes.
 

According to th Ubuntu web page Ubuntu will always be free of charge.
 You can read into this what you will (maybe Redhat said something
similar once, but I doubt it).  I, however, am willing to take it at
face value.  Also, there is enough momentum behind it already so that
if it did turn commercial I would not be surprised if a new free
distribution started off from the latest available Ubuntu.

 Mandrake has gone commercial, and is now called Mandrivia.
 So there is precedent for such a conversion, and if migration
 is an issue, then...
 

I could be wrong, but I think that Mandrake was always commercial. 
Initially, however, they tried trading with a we'll give you the
software for free, but please give us some money if you want policy,
which didn't work too well and nearly resulted in bankrupcy (now well
in the past).  Now they appear to have a we'll give you the previous
version for free, and most of the current one as well but for the full
current one it will cost you policy, which is a better way of running
a profit making organisation.

For what it's worth, I have tried Ubuntu and I think it looks good,
although I do have one or two issues with it.  For example, I know that
most mice are PS/2 these days but the machine I happened to try it on
has an old serial mouse which Ubuntu didn't pick up.  Not a good start.

Bye,

Joe



___ 
Yahoo! Exclusive Xmas Game, help Santa with his celebrity party - 
http://santas-christmas-party.yahoo.net/


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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Kevin Mark]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 01:04:32AM -0500, Chinook wrote:
 post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]
 
 Well, you-all steered me right :-) for my needs - thank you.  I feel so
 much cleaner now that there is no Windoze system in the house.
 
 If one does their homework and has decent supported hardware, it's a
 piece of cake :-P  Though being used to a Mac (Darwin Unix) there are
 enough little differences to keep one on their toes (like Terminal
 control sequences).
 
 She who must be obeyed is happy with her Thunderbird, Firefox and card
 games, but not overjoyed with my Gaelic naming scheme.  I'm not ready to
Well then what would happen in you set up a Gaelic locale? Most apps
(maybe just gnome) support it!
Cheers,
Kev
-- 
counter.li.org #238656 -- goto counter.li.org and be counted!
  `$' $' 
   $  $  _
 ,d$$$g$  ,d$$$b. $,d$$$b`$' g$b $,d$$b
,$P'  `$ ,$P' `Y$ $$'  `$ $  '   `$ $$' `$
$$ $ $$g$ $ $ $ ,$P  $ $$
`$g. ,$$ `$$._ _. $ _,g$P $ `$b. ,$$ $$
 `Y$$P'$. `YP $$$P' ,$. `Y$$P'$ $.  ,$.


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Description: Digital signature

Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[thierry]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:


On Sat, Dec 24, 2005 at 03:12:10AM -0500, Chinook wrote:
 

I went through the dpkg-reconfigure and it would not let me select 
anything except 800x600 and 640x480.  So next step I edited the file as 
Kelly mentioned to set 1280x1024.  Then I rebooted and found I was in a 
pile of it.  There is no more GUI (neither gdm or xdm will come up).
   



(a) You hand-edited it to make it not work. Try hand-editing the file to
make it back the way is was.

(b) I believe the configuration tools watch for people who hand-edit
the X configuration file, and refuse to damage the careful hand-tuning
you've done.  So there is something you have to do to tell it that
it's OK to replace the hand-tuned version with a machine-generated
one.  I think it stores a checksum somewhere to detect the change.
Unfortunately I don't remember just what it is you have to do.

-- hendrik


 

Well, the checksum staff is only for futur update. It wont update if you 
don,t givze it the sum in some ways I have forgoten, but you can get 
that thru man I believe. But did you try, and retry... dpkg-reconfigure 
with the GUI not running, to set different video driver until you get 
one that does the job as you want? I went thru the same problem last 
week and managed to solve it. I remember I did not get the same result 
if I was using medium or advence to set the video. And I went more than 
once from advance to medium to advence, and it finally worked.

Thierry


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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Chinook]

thierry wrote:

Well, the checksum staff is only for futur update. It wont update if you 
don,t givze it the sum in some ways I have forgoten, but you can get 
that thru man I believe. But did you try, and retry... dpkg-reconfigure 
with the GUI not running, to set different video driver until you get 
one that does the job as you want? I went thru the same problem last 
week and managed to solve it. I remember I did not get the same result 
if I was using medium or advence to set the video. And I went more than 
once from advance to medium to advence, and it finally worked.

Thierry




Thanks,

I got it all going again :-)  I know it's using the higher resolution 
now but I can't (re)find where in the KDE GUI settings the resolution 
can be changed to check that :-(  It's late and I'm brain dead - I'm 
going to bed.


Happy holidays,
Lee C



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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Chinook]

Kelly Clowers wrote:


quiet splash are options that are passed from grub to the kernel, but
I just tried them and realized that although they decrease the verbosity
they don't eliminate it. I *think* to eliminate it you need special packages
and a kernel patch and recompile. I don't think it is related to X , as
X doesn't get involved until quite late.

This may be the kind of thing you are looking for:
http://www.bootsplash.org/

Hopefully I am on the right track this time...



I do believe, after all my screwing around with this quiet boot issue, 
that you are correct.  Problem is that I'm not comfortable yet with 
recompiling the kernel for a non-critical issue.  So I'll just sit on it 
till I am, or it becomes a part of stable Debian.





What I don't like is that the largest screen resolution I can set is
800x600 :-(  How can I get back to 1024x768 that I selected during install?


You mean in the KDE control center under display, right? I have never been too
sure how it interacts with the X config files, but it should let you select any
resolution listed in /etc/X11/xorg.conf . You could try unchecking the box that
says apply settings on KDE startup and restarting. Then it should use
the X defaults. Otherwise I dunno.



and Andrew M.A. Cater also said:
dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 -plow 


should help here. Ctrl-alt-numberpad+ or ctrl-alt-numberpad- should
cycle you through available resolutions.


Well between the two of you (and my ignorance), I really stuck my foot 
in it now :-((
I went through the dpkg-reconfigure and it would not let me select 
anything except 800x600 and 640x480.  So next step I edited the file as 
Kelly mentioned to set 1280x1024.  Then I rebooted and found I was in a 
pile of it.  There is no more GUI (neither gdm or xdm will come up).


Since, I have figured out that my selection of ati for a driver was 
likely what caused the max 800x600 issue and I should have used the 
driver radeon, but there is no such driver in the Debian stable 
package I installed.  XFree86 says there should be but it's not there.


Before I can go looking for it, I would like to get the GUI back.  It 
boots into terminal mode because gdm/xdm fail, so I tried the 
dpkg-reconfigure again to get the configuration file back to where it 
was but the GUI still wont come back.  I'm going to sleep on it then try 
something like nano against the file.


If you have any better ideas, I'd sure like to hear them :-P



Kelly

PS - As far as hearts go, if all else fails there is always Wine
(www.winehq.com) :-)


I expunged Windoze to cleanse my soul ;')


Happy holidays to all and my best to you and yours,
Lee C

PS: Times like this remind me of how much effort my Mac saves me :-)


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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Kent West]

Chinook wrote:

 I went through the dpkg-reconfigure and it would not let me select
 anything except 800x600 and 640x480.  So next step I edited the file
 as Kelly mentioned to set 1280x1024.  Then I rebooted and found I was
 in a pile of it.  There is no more GUI (neither gdm or xdm will come up).

 Since, I have figured out that my selection of ati for a driver was
 likely what caused the max 800x600 issue and I should have used the
 driver radeon, but there is no such driver in the Debian stable
 package I installed.  XFree86 says there should be but it's not there.

Unless I'm mistaken, the radeon driver is non-free, and therefore
won't be in the Debian repositories. (But don't quote me, as I'm not sure.)

Also, are you still running XFree86, or X.org? Probably won't be much
difference at this point, but this could be an issue.


 Before I can go looking for it, I would like to get the GUI back.  It
 boots into terminal mode because gdm/xdm fail, so I tried the
 dpkg-reconfigure again to get the configuration file back to where it
 was but the GUI still wont come back.  I'm going to sleep on it then
 try something like nano against the file.

Once you edit the config file by hand, dpkg-reconfigure will no longer
touch it until you do the steps at the top of that file.

As a short-term fix, you should be able to specify vesa as your
video driver.

 PS: Times like this remind me of how much effort my Mac saves me :-)

Indeed.

-- 
Kent



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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Chinook]

Kent West wrote:

Chinook wrote:


I went through the dpkg-reconfigure and it would not let me select
anything except 800x600 and 640x480.  So next step I edited the file
as Kelly mentioned to set 1280x1024.  Then I rebooted and found I was
in a pile of it.  There is no more GUI (neither gdm or xdm will come up).

Since, I have figured out that my selection of ati for a driver was
likely what caused the max 800x600 issue and I should have used the
driver radeon, but there is no such driver in the Debian stable
package I installed.  XFree86 says there should be but it's not there.


Unless I'm mistaken, the radeon driver is non-free, and therefore
won't be in the Debian repositories. (But don't quote me, as I'm not sure.)

Also, are you still running XFree86, or X.org? Probably won't be much
difference at this point, but this could be an issue.



Thanks Kent.  Well I tried gdm and xdm with the resolution issue until I 
screwed it all up :-) and don't remember what I last did - xdm i think 
if wer're on the same page.  Having only terminal mode, I don't know 
what to change to get back to gdm.  I can't just enter it at the prompt 
if the other is running.  I remember a config file that noted the 
default to use, but that will be a little difficult to discover again at 
this point. If you've a quick answer that would be nice, otherwise back 
to reading.


I'm not going to get too excited about it today obviously :-)

Happy holidays,
Lee C





Before I can go looking for it, I would like to get the GUI back.  It
boots into terminal mode because gdm/xdm fail, so I tried the
dpkg-reconfigure again to get the configuration file back to where it
was but the GUI still wont come back.  I'm going to sleep on it then
try something like nano against the file.


Once you edit the config file by hand, dpkg-reconfigure will no longer
touch it until you do the steps at the top of that file.

As a short-term fix, you should be able to specify vesa as your
video driver.


PS: Times like this remind me of how much effort my Mac saves me :-)


Indeed.




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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Kelly Clowers]

On 12/24/05, Chinook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Kent West wrote:
  Chinook wrote:
 
  I went through the dpkg-reconfigure and it would not let me select
  anything except 800x600 and 640x480.  So next step I edited the file
  as Kelly mentioned to set 1280x1024.  Then I rebooted and found I was
  in a pile of it.  There is no more GUI (neither gdm or xdm will come up).
 
  Since, I have figured out that my selection of ati for a driver was
  likely what caused the max 800x600 issue and I should have used the
  driver radeon, but there is no such driver in the Debian stable
  package I installed.  XFree86 says there should be but it's not there.
 
  Unless I'm mistaken, the radeon driver is non-free, and therefore
  won't be in the Debian repositories. (But don't quote me, as I'm not sure.)
 
  Also, are you still running XFree86, or X.org? Probably won't be much
  difference at this point, but this could be an issue.
 

 Thanks Kent.  Well I tried gdm and xdm with the resolution issue until I
 screwed it all up :-) and don't remember what I last did - xdm i think
 if wer're on the same page.  Having only terminal mode, I don't know
 what to change to get back to gdm.  I can't just enter it at the prompt
 if the other is running.  I remember a config file that noted the
 default to use, but that will be a little difficult to discover again at
 this point. If you've a quick answer that would be nice, otherwise back
 to reading.

dpkg-reconfigure gdm
should do it

Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[hendrik]

On Sat, Dec 24, 2005 at 03:12:10AM -0500, Chinook wrote:
 I went through the dpkg-reconfigure and it would not let me select 
 anything except 800x600 and 640x480.  So next step I edited the file as 
 Kelly mentioned to set 1280x1024.  Then I rebooted and found I was in a 
 pile of it.  There is no more GUI (neither gdm or xdm will come up).

(a) You hand-edited it to make it not work. Try hand-editing the file to
make it back the way is was.

(b) I believe the configuration tools watch for people who hand-edit
the X configuration file, and refuse to damage the careful hand-tuning
you've done.  So there is something you have to do to tell it that
it's OK to replace the hand-tuned version with a machine-generated
one.  I think it stores a checksum somewhere to detect the change.
Unfortunately I don't remember just what it is you have to do.

-- hendrik


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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Chinook]

Chinook wrote:

post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]
snip

She who must be obeyed is happy with her Thunderbird, Firefox and card
games, but not overjoyed with my Gaelic naming scheme.  


Whoops, spoke too soon.  She is missing hearts that she plays with her 
 uum friends*.  I thought I found it as part of a package called 
floater,  but when I bring it up it only has bridge :-(  Anyway, after 
I installed it, it did not show up in a menu?  I found it with the file 
browser and can double click it, but even after a restart it is not in a 
menu???  Then there is the question that if it does not include hearts 
I'll figure out how to can it (false advertising?).
*OT At my point in life the old men sit around and talk about the 
weather and the old women sit around and talk about the old men :-)



I'm not ready to
put up GNUstep yet, but I am going to try to get BOINC going again on
the PC before I get back to my Mac development.  No point in wasting all
that idle time.


I put up GNUstep, but have not had time to check it out yet.

Andrew M.A. Cater:  I checked the various BOINC and client boards and 
there are a lot of participants running the new BOINC on the latest 
stable Debian.  There does seem to be some classic [EMAIL PROTECTED] people that are 
disgruntled - not something I want to get into :-)




There are three little items I have not been able to resolve yet though,
and would appreciate any pointers:

1)  When booting up, can the keyboard Num Lock be defaulted to On?  I
keep forgetting to hit the Num Lock key before any digits in passwords
and it's an unconscious habit to use the number pad rather than the top
row of the character  section of the keyboard.


Yes there is a BIOS setting and BIOS turns it on, but ??? turns it off 
before one gets to the login.  /etc/console-tools/config has no effect.


I did find the mentioned numlockx package and installed it.  It's a CLI 
tool,  so in what script where would I employ it*?


*OT  Careful what you're thinking - this old man ain't completely brain 
dead :-))  and I have searched though obviously not enough :-(




2)  I have my BIOS quieted, but Grub (I guess) is rather verbose.  I
changed the setting in etc/default/rcS to VERBOSE=no but it doesn't seem
to make any difference :-(  Is there a way to quiet the Linux boot?


MJD: I guess your comment to add quiet splash to the kernel command 
line in the grub config file is too general.  Maybe if you would note 
the file path and line number within the file, I might be able to catch 
up with you :-)  I found what I thought was the file but could not see 
where to edit it.


Andrei Popescu:  I can't find a splashy package - at least in Synaptic.



3)  How do I put the monitor (only) to sleep after say 10 minutes of
inactivity.  On my Mac I do this with an Energy Saver setting and also
did it on the PC when it had Windoze (about the only thing it did well :-)


I tried Gnome screensaver settings - blank screen works of course but 
does not reduce power (monitor power green light stays on instead of 
flashing yellow).  If I set no screensaver then the screen never blanks 
- duh :-)


The settings in /etc/console-tools/config again have no effect.

I did notice that BIOS has APM enabled (and ACPI seems to be an 
extension of such), but in the boot config menu file APM=m (???) and 
there is a slew of settings for ACPI.  Could this be part of the problem?




snip
Thank you for your patience,
Lee C



Twice over,
Lee C


PS:  I also meant to ask if one could switch back and forth between 
Gnome and KDE.  Rather than ask what the advantages are bto me/b, I 
was thinking of seeing for myself what KDE is like :-)






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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Chinook]

I also forgot to ask ...

(I know you're thinking won't this old fart go to bed)

When I installed some more packages with Synaptic it said two potential 
updates were not selected (can't remember the exact wording).  Looking 
at the two in the list, they were kernel-image-2.4.27.2-386 and mdadm, 
both of which seemed to have the same new and old version numbers.


I left them alone (at least for the moment), but what's the story here?
Should I or shouldn't I? (how many times in life have I asked myself 
that question :-)


Thanks again,
Lee C
Regret for the things we did can be tempered by time; it's regret for 
the things we didn't do that is inconsolable. -- Sydney J. Harris



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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 03:25:56AM -0500, Chinook wrote:
 Chinook wrote:
 post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]
 snip
 
 Whoops, spoke too soon.  She is missing hearts that she plays with her 
  uum friends*.  I thought I found it as part of a package called 
 floater,  but when I bring it up it only has bridge :-(  Anyway, after 
Linux hearts card game on Google shows two good entries at the top.

One appears to be a project started this year: the other is about 9
years old on freshmeat. Those might be a good start to look at.
 I installed it, it did not show up in a menu?  I found it with the file 
 browser and can double click it, but even after a restart it is not in a 
 menu???  Then there is the question that if it does not include hearts 
 I'll figure out how to can it (false advertising?).

Menu system not infallible: is it under Debian - apps - games or
entertainment?  To remove a package - apt-get remove floater

 
 Andrew M.A. Cater:  I checked the various BOINC and client boards and 
 there are a lot of participants running the new BOINC on the latest 
 stable Debian.  There does seem to be some classic [EMAIL PROTECTED] people 
 that are 
 disgruntled - not something I want to get into :-)
 
Good - glad you can get it going :)

 
 There are three little items I have not been able to resolve yet though,
 and would appreciate any pointers:
 
 1)  When booting up, can the keyboard Num Lock be defaulted to On?  I
 keep forgetting to hit the Num Lock key before any digits in passwords
 and it's an unconscious habit to use the number pad rather than the top
 row of the character  section of the keyboard.
 
 Yes there is a BIOS setting and BIOS turns it on, but ??? turns it off 
 before one gets to the login.  /etc/console-tools/config has no effect.
 
 I did find the mentioned numlockx package and installed it.  It's a CLI 
 tool,  so in what script where would I employ it*?
 
numlockx - works under X windows : if you start it in your X session
start up scripts, then you'd have full numlock control if working in X.
[Doesn't work for command line in a virtual terminal as far as I can
see.] I still think it's probably a BIOS setting overall / a
console-tools setting.

 *OT  Careful what you're thinking - this old man ain't completely brain 
 dead :-))  and I have searched though obviously not enough :-(
 
 the file path and line number within the file, I might be able to catch 
 up with you :-)  I found what I thought was the file but could not see 
 where to edit it.
 
Start with /boot/grub/menu.lst perhaps? Not sure here.

 I tried Gnome screensaver settings - blank screen works of course but 
 does not reduce power (monitor power green light stays on instead of 
 flashing yellow).  If I set no screensaver then the screen never blanks 
 - duh :-)
 
 The settings in /etc/console-tools/config again have no effect.
 
 I did notice that BIOS has APM enabled (and ACPI seems to be an 
 extension of such), but in the boot config menu file APM=m (???) and 
 there is a slew of settings for ACPI.  Could this be part of the problem?
 
modprobe apm ; aptitude install apmd ? [Or similarly for acpi] ??

HTH,
 
 snip
 Thank you for your patience,
 Lee C
 
 
 Twice over,
 Lee C
 
 
 PS:  I also meant to ask if one could switch back and forth between 
 Gnome and KDE.  Rather than ask what the advantages are bto me/b, I 
 was thinking of seeing for myself what KDE is like :-)
 
If you have a boot manager (gdm/kdm) running - select under Session

All the best,

Andy

[Someone presumably used to British English, I can't imagine a non-Brit
referring to themselves as an old fart :) ]


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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Andrei Popescu]

 Andrei Popescu:  I can't find a splashy package - at least in Synaptic.

It's in experimental ;) (i'm running unstable)

  3)  How do I put the monitor (only) to sleep after say 10 minutes of
  inactivity.  On my Mac I do this with an Energy Saver setting and also
  did it on the PC when it had Windoze (about the only thing it did well :-)
 
 I tried Gnome screensaver settings - blank screen works of course but 
 does not reduce power (monitor power green light stays on instead of 
 flashing yellow).  If I set no screensaver then the screen never blanks 
 - duh :-)
 
 The settings in /etc/console-tools/config again have no effect.
 
 I did notice that BIOS has APM enabled (and ACPI seems to be an 
 extension of such), but in the boot config menu file APM=m (???) and 
 there is a slew of settings for ACPI.  Could this be part of the problem?

ACPI is the (supposedly better) replacement of APM. APM support should be more 
mature, ACPI should have more features. AFAIK you cannot run both. In either 
case you need at least the apmd or the acpid package installed. There are some 
CLI clients (apm, acpitool) and some daemons to control the timers. I only use 
cpudyn, to spin down the hdd (it's main function is CPU throttling).

Andrei

P.S. I hope you don't mind the CC (it got added automatically by my client). If 
you do just say so, i'll remove it next time :)


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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Mike McCarty]

Chinook wrote:

Chinook wrote:


post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]
snip

She who must be obeyed is happy with her Thunderbird, Firefox and card
games, but not overjoyed with my Gaelic naming scheme.  



Whoops, spoke too soon.  She is missing hearts that she plays with her 
 uum friends*.  I thought I found it as part of a package called 


Google is your friend. Searching for

+linux +hearts +card +game

got *several* hits.

floater,  but when I bring it up it only has bridge :-(  Anyway, after 
I installed it, it did not show up in a menu?  I found it with the file 
browser and can double click it, but even after a restart it is not in a 
menu???  Then there is the question that if it does not include hearts 
I'll figure out how to can it (false advertising?).
*OT At my point in life the old men sit around and talk about the 
weather and the old women sit around and talk about the old men :-)


I am aware of this phenomenon. There are small gathering halls
where the hens sit and cluck. These halls, for reasons known only
to women, are known by secret code names. One of these code names
is Beauty Parlor. I guess they think we men can't figure out
what is really up.

[snip]

PS:  I also meant to ask if one could switch back and forth between 
Gnome and KDE.  Rather than ask what the advantages are bto me/b, I 
was thinking of seeing for myself what KDE is like :-)


Not precisely. But one can shut down the window manager and restart the
other. Or change the user preference. Or have two user logins with
different preferences.

Mike
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This message made from 100% recycled bits.
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I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!


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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Kelly Clowers]

On 12/23/05, Chinook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Chinook wrote:
  post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]
 
  There are three little items I have not been able to resolve yet though,
  and would appreciate any pointers:
 
  1)  When booting up, can the keyboard Num Lock be defaulted to On?  I
  keep forgetting to hit the Num Lock key before any digits in passwords
  and it's an unconscious habit to use the number pad rather than the top
  row of the character  section of the keyboard.

 Yes there is a BIOS setting and BIOS turns it on, but ??? turns it off
 before one gets to the login.  /etc/console-tools/config has no effect.

 I did find the mentioned numlockx package and installed it.  It's a CLI
 tool,  so in what script where would I employ it*?


 I think you could put it in /etc/X11/xinit/xinitrc or
/etc/X11/Xsession to enable it
 globally. I think putting it in /home/username/.xsession would enable
for you once you
 logged in. I am a little vague which X config files (xinitrc vs
xsession)  are supposed to
 do what, so I just put stuff in them and test to see if it has the
desired effect.

 
  2)  I have my BIOS quieted, but Grub (I guess) is rather verbose.  I
  changed the setting in etc/default/rcS to VERBOSE=no but it doesn't seem
  to make any difference :-(  Is there a way to quiet the Linux boot?

 MJD: I guess your comment to add quiet splash to the kernel command
 line in the grub config file is too general.  Maybe if you would note
 the file path and line number within the file, I might be able to catch
 up with you :-)  I found what I thought was the file but could not see
 where to edit it.

 /boot/grub/menu.lst

 look for a line like this:
 kernel  /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.12-1-686 root=/dev/hde1 ro

 and make it more like this:
 kernel  /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.12-1-686 root=/dev/hde1 ro quiet splash

 If there is stuff after the ro (eg vga=771) just put quiet splash at the end.
 vmlinuz-2.6.12-1-686 might be vmlinuz-2.4.27.2-386 or some such.

 You probably don't want to do that in the section labeled (recovery mode),
 since if you need recovery mode, you probably want to see what is going
 on.


 PS:  I also meant to ask if one could switch back and forth between
 Gnome and KDE.  Rather than ask what the advantages are bto me/b, I
 was thinking of seeing for myself what KDE is like :-)


 If you are using GDM, KDM or XDM (in other words if the boot process ends
 with a GUI instead of a command line), you should have drop down list of
 installed Window Managers/Desktop Environments.

Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Chinook]

Andrew M.A. Cater spoketh:

Linux hearts card game on Google shows two good entries at the top.

One appears to be a project started this year: the other is about 9
years old on freshmeat. Those might be a good start to look at.


Mike McCarty spoketh:

Google is your friend. Searching for

+linux +hearts +card +game

got *several* hits.



I had googled and did again, and the only hit I find that is anywhere 
near close is hearts-1.98 
(http://linux.softpedia.com/get/GAMES-ENTERTAINMENT/Fortune/Hearts-2573.shtml) 
 - (http://hearts.luispedro.org/)
which when I tried to build it dies in the ./configure with something 
about X paths not found.  When I do this sort of thing on my Mac I know 
where everything is, how to add to PATH/env variables, etc.  Since one 
does not get up to speed overnight, I guess hearts will just have to 
wait until I do (unless someone has already installed it and wants to 
hold my hand  =-O  )




Mike McCarty spoketh:

/boot/grub/menu.lst

 look for a line like this:
 kernel  /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.12-1-686 root=/dev/hde1 ro

 and make it more like this:
 kernel  /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.12-1-686 root=/dev/hde1 ro quiet splash



That's certainly clear enough - thank you.  But it didn't help - as was 
previously noted the display log is most likely post grub.  I think 
someone mentioned something about X windows config - I'll look for that.



Andrew M.A. Cater spoketh about switching between Gnome and KDE:

If you have a boot manager (gdm/kdm) running - select under Session


and Mike McCarty spoketh:

Not precisely. But one can shut down the window manager and restart the
other. Or change the user preference. Or have two user logins with
different preferences.


What I did was select KDE at the graphical login screen.  I could even 
pick a Mac OS X style :-) :-)  In the Desktop configuration GUI there 
were settings for power management that I don't remember seeing for 
Gnome.  In trying such it has gotten as far as standby so far and come 
back reliably.  Have to wait another 30 minutes to see if it handles 
full monitor power down and back.  So at least with KDE I'm closer to 
resolving that issue :-)


What I don't like is that the largest screen resolution I can set is 
800x600 :-(  How can I get back to 1024x768 that I selected during install?



Have not got back to numlock yet.

Gotta get back to reading,
Lee C


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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Mike McCarty]

Chinook wrote:

Andrew M.A. Cater spoketh:


Linux hearts card game on Google shows two good entries at the top.

One appears to be a project started this year: the other is about 9
years old on freshmeat. Those might be a good start to look at.



Mike McCarty spoketh:


Google is your friend. Searching for

+linux +hearts +card +game

got *several* hits.




I had googled and did again, and the only hit I find that is anywhere 
near close is hearts-1.98 
(http://linux.softpedia.com/get/GAMES-ENTERTAINMENT/Fortune/Hearts-2573.shtml) 
 - (http://hearts.luispedro.org/)
which when I tried to build it dies in the ./configure with something 
about X paths not found.  When I do this sort of thing on my Mac I know 
where everything is, how to add to PATH/env variables, etc.  Since one 
does not get up to speed overnight, I guess hearts will just have to 
wait until I do (unless someone has already installed it and wants to 
hold my hand  =-O  )


[snip]

It sounds like you didn't install the X Window development package.
I'm not a Debian expert, so I can't help further in that direction.
For Fedora, I'd know just what to do. Sorry...

I'm sur someone here can help.

Mike
--
p=p=%c%s%c;main(){printf(p,34,p,34);};main(){printf(p,34,p,34);}
This message made from 100% recycled bits.
You have found the bank of Larn.
I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!


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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Fri, Dec 23, 2005 at 04:54:14PM -0500, Chinook wrote:
 Andrew M.A. Cater spoketh:
 Linux hearts card game on Google shows two good entries at the top.
 
 One appears to be a project started this year: the other is about 9
 years old on freshmeat. Those might be a good start to look at.
 
 I had googled and did again, and the only hit I find that is anywhere 
 near close is hearts-1.98 
 (http://linux.softpedia.com/get/GAMES-ENTERTAINMENT/Fortune/Hearts-2573.shtml)
  
  - (http://hearts.luispedro.org/)

That's the one. You might also need X development libraries.

 which when I tried to build it dies in the ./configure with something 
 about X paths not found.  When I do this sort of thing on my Mac I know 
 where everything is, how to add to PATH/env variables, etc.  Since one 
 does not get up to speed overnight, I guess hearts will just have to 
 wait until I do (unless someone has already installed it and wants to 
 hold my hand  =-O  )
 
 What I did was select KDE at the graphical login screen.  I could even 
 pick a Mac OS X style :-) :-)  In the Desktop configuration GUI there 
 were settings for power management that I don't remember seeing for 
 Gnome.  In trying such it has gotten as far as standby so far and come 
 back reliably.  Have to wait another 30 minutes to see if it handles 
 full monitor power down and back.  So at least with KDE I'm closer to 
 resolving that issue :-)
 
 What I don't like is that the largest screen resolution I can set is 
 800x600 :-(  How can I get back to 1024x768 that I selected during install?
 
dpkg-reconfigure xserver-xfree86 -plow 

should help here. Ctrl-alt-numberpad+ or ctrl-alt-numberpad- should
cycle you through available resolutions.

Andy


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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Kelly Clowers]

On 12/23/05, Chinook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  /boot/grub/menu.lst
 
   look for a line like this:
   kernel  /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.12-1-686 root=/dev/hde1 ro
 
   and make it more like this:
   kernel  /boot/vmlinuz-2.6.12-1-686 root=/dev/hde1 ro quiet splash


 That's certainly clear enough - thank you.  But it didn't help - as was
 previously noted the display log is most likely post grub.  I think
 someone mentioned something about X windows config - I'll look for that.

quiet splash are options that are passed from grub to the kernel, but
I just tried them and realized that although they decrease the verbosity
they don't eliminate it. I *think* to eliminate it you need special packages
and a kernel patch and recompile. I don't think it is related to X , as
X doesn't get involved until quite late.

This may be the kind of thing you are looking for:
http://www.bootsplash.org/

Hopefully I am on the right track this time...


 What I don't like is that the largest screen resolution I can set is
 800x600 :-(  How can I get back to 1024x768 that I selected during install?

You mean in the KDE control center under display, right? I have never been too
sure how it interacts with the X config files, but it should let you select any
resolution listed in /etc/X11/xorg.conf . You could try unchecking the box that
says apply settings on KDE startup and restarting. Then it should use
the X defaults. Otherwise I dunno.


Kelly

PS - As far as hearts go, if all else fails there is always Wine
(www.winehq.com) :-)

Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Thu, Dec 22, 2005 at 01:04:32AM -0500, Chinook wrote:
 post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]
 
 She who must be obeyed is happy with her Thunderbird, Firefox and card
 games, but not overjoyed with my Gaelic naming scheme.  I'm not ready to
 put up GNUstep yet, but I am going to try to get BOINC going again on
 the PC before I get back to my Mac development.  No point in wasting all
 that idle time.
 
I'm not sure about BOINC as a supported Debian package - there were
a couple of messages from the maintainer of setiathome and the KDE
equivalent that these were now obsolete because they weren't BOINC
and should be removed from the archive in due course. BOINC may
yet make it into Debian as a drop-in I suppose :)  BOINC Debian
in Google gives useful pointers :)
 There are three little items I have not been able to resolve yet though,
 and would appreciate any pointers:
 
 1)  When booting up, can the keyboard Num Lock be defaulted to On?  I
 keep forgetting to hit the Num Lock key before any digits in passwords
 and it's an unconscious habit to use the number pad rather than the top
 row of the character  section of the keyboard.
BIOS setting? I generally go through and change NumLock to off on all
my PC's - but it's BIOS not Debian per se, since the changes happen
at very low level and very early on.

 
 2)  I have my BIOS quieted, but Grub (I guess) is rather verbose.  I
 changed the setting in etc/default/rcS to VERBOSE=no but it doesn't seem
 to make any difference :-(  Is there a way to quiet the Linux boot?
 
Don't know - some distributions just blank out all the information.
Not sure what they do / where they redirect it to :)

 3)  How do I put the monitor (only) to sleep after say 10 minutes of
 inactivity.  On my Mac I do this with an Energy Saver setting and also
 did it on the PC when it had Windoze (about the only thing it did well :-)
 
xscreensaver preferences?  Settings - Screensaver on menu under KDE,
for example. Potentially also a BIOS setting on some PC's, though
I prefer to do this through OS. powersave / powermgmt may also have
stuff under ACPI

HTH. Thanks for asking sensible questions, sensibly expressed - it makes
it a good deal easier to answer them :)

Andy


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Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[MJD]

On 12/22/05, Chinook [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]Well, you-all steered me right :-) for my needs - thank you.I feel somuch cleaner now that there is no Windoze system in the house.If one does their homework and has decent supported hardware, it's a
piece of cake :-PThough being used to a Mac (Darwin Unix) there areenough little differences to keep one on their toes (like Terminalcontrol sequences).She who must be obeyed is happy with her Thunderbird, Firefox and card
games, but not overjoyed with my Gaelic naming scheme.I'm not ready toput up GNUstep yet, but I am going to try to get BOINC going again onthe PC before I get back to my Mac development.No point in wasting all
that idle time.There are three little items I have not been able to resolve yet though,and would appreciate any pointers:1)When booting up, can the keyboard Num Lock be defaulted to On?Ikeep forgetting to hit the Num Lock key before any digits in passwords
and it's an unconscious habit to use the number pad rather than the toprow of the charactersection of the keyboard.Not sure, there is a setting to turn it on in KDE after login, maybe check the config file for your GUI?
2)I have my BIOS quieted, but Grub (I guess) is rather verbose.Ichanged the setting in etc/default/rcS to VERBOSE=no but it doesn't seem
to make any difference :-(Is there a way to quiet the Linux boot?Yes, add quiet splash to the kernel command line in the grub config file.
3)How do I put the monitor (only) to sleep after say 10 minutes ofinactivity.On my Mac I do this with an Energy Saver setting and alsodid it on the PC when it had Windoze (about the only thing it did well :-)
Not sure, my turned off (after a while), and I was never very sure why.
One list issue also that I hate to bring up given the Unsubscribethread :-)and I did send the question to [EMAIL PROTECTED]but have received no answer (though two days is not unreasonable :-). I
found this list on GMANE also so I can follow it and post from my NR.The problem is that I still also get the emails and am reluctant to sendan unsubscribe fearing I might then not be able to post from my NR.
Is this a catch-22?Thank you for your patience,Lee C--To UNSUBSCRIBE, email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]with a subject of unsubscribe. Trouble? Contact 
[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Re: post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Chinook]

One list issue also that I hate to bring up given the Unsubscribe
thread :-)  and I did send the question to
[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
but have received no answer (though two days is not unreasonable :-). I
found this list on GMANE also so I can follow it and post from my NR.
The problem is that I still also get the emails and am reluctant to send
an unsubscribe fearing I might then not be able to post from my NR.
Is this a catch-22?

Thank you for your patience,
Lee C




FWIW - I got a reply from listmaster that I could avoid the emails 
without thwarting NR posting by subscribing to their pseudo-mailinglist 
whitelist and then unsubscribing from debian-user.


This NR post is a test of such.

So, one issue down and I'm looking into your generous replies on the 
other issues.


Thank you,
Lee C


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Re: OT: Leet-speak WAS:[Help with Linux selection please?]

[Rogério Brito]

On Dec 20 2005, Steve Lamb wrote:
 I disagree.  Simply put if someone cannot bother to put some
 effort into making their writing moderately comprehensible why should
 I be expected to put any effort into decyphering it?

100% agreed, let alone the fact that the list may have a lot of
non-native English speakers.  If l33t-speak is allowed, why not other
*proper* natural languages?  And then the mess is created...


Regards from someone whose primary language isn't English, Rogério.

P.S.: Can't you see how strong my accent is? :-)
-- 
Rogério Brito : [EMAIL PROTECTED] : http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito
Homepage of the algorithms package : http://algorithms.berlios.de
Homepage on freshmeat:  http://freshmeat.net/projects/algorithms/


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Re: OT: Leet-speak WAS:[Help with Linux selection please?]

[hendrik]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 06:44:27AM -0200, Rog?rio Brito wrote:
 On Dec 20 2005, Steve Lamb wrote:
  I disagree.  Simply put if someone cannot bother to put some
  effort into making their writing moderately comprehensible why should
  I be expected to put any effort into decyphering it?
 
 100% agreed, let alone the fact that the list may have a lot of
 non-native English speakers.  If l33t-speak is allowed, why not other
 *proper* natural languages?  And then the mess is created...

Ah!  I see.  We should have a debian-user-leet list.  For native
leet-speakers, of course.

-- hendrik


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Re: Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Frye, David CIV]

snip
Once you've tried these for a week or so, then slide to a Debian
install. Debian stable will work well - but feels very old
to some people.
snip

I prefer Debian stable.  I just want my laptop to work without having to spend 
time trying to figure out problems that pop into unstable and testing.  I see 
no point in running the bleeding edge as long as what I have works and gets the 
job done.  

Dave

Re: OT: Leet-speak WAS:[Help with Linux selection please?]

[Andrew Sackville-West]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 06:44:27AM -0200, Rog?rio Brito wrote:



Ah!  I see.  We should have a debian-user-leet list.  For native
leet-speakers, of course.


now that's just darn funny.

A


-- hendrik





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Re: Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Daniel Webb]

On Wed, Dec 21, 2005 at 01:31:19PM -0500, Frye, David CIV wrote:

 snip
 Once you've tried these for a week or so, then slide to a Debian
 install. Debian stable will work well - but feels very old
 to some people.
 snip
 
 I prefer Debian stable.  I just want my laptop to work without having to
 spend time trying to figure out problems that pop into unstable and testing.
 I see no point in running the bleeding edge as long as what I have works and
 gets the job done.  

Agreed.  With Woody (the previous stable) I did find myself missing a lot of
things I used regularly (like subversion or asterisk).  But with Sarge (the
current stable), I'm perfectly happy.  I have all my laptops and servers
running stable and it's great.


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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[CaT]

On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 10:31:56PM +1100, Arafangion wrote:
 Personally, I feel that if one says that they are willing to _pay_, the test 
 should not recommend Debian, but rather the commercial distributions, that 

How is being willing to pay for something because you feel you have to
(for example) completely exclude you from being able to use Debian?

-- 
To the extent that we overreact, we proffer the terrorists the
greatest tribute.
- High Court Judge Michael Kirby


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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Arafangion]

On Thursday 22 December 2005 15:13, CaT wrote:
 On Tue, Dec 20, 2005 at 10:31:56PM +1100, Arafangion wrote:
  Personally, I feel that if one says that they are willing to _pay_, the
  test should not recommend Debian, but rather the commercial
  distributions, that

 How is being willing to pay for something because you feel you have to
 (for example) completely exclude you from being able to use Debian?

I feel that it implies that you want a system that allows you to play DVD's 
and all sorts of audio seamlessly, plus have other nicely polished tools, 
such as Sun StarOffice (as opposed to OpenOffice), as well as possibly 
Codeweaver's Crossover Wine.


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post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

[Chinook]

post install tidbits? [was Help with Linux selection please?]

Well, you-all steered me right :-) for my needs - thank you.  I feel so
much cleaner now that there is no Windoze system in the house.

If one does their homework and has decent supported hardware, it's a
piece of cake :-P  Though being used to a Mac (Darwin Unix) there are
enough little differences to keep one on their toes (like Terminal
control sequences).

She who must be obeyed is happy with her Thunderbird, Firefox and card
games, but not overjoyed with my Gaelic naming scheme.  I'm not ready to
put up GNUstep yet, but I am going to try to get BOINC going again on
the PC before I get back to my Mac development.  No point in wasting all
that idle time.

There are three little items I have not been able to resolve yet though,
and would appreciate any pointers:

1)  When booting up, can the keyboard Num Lock be defaulted to On?  I
keep forgetting to hit the Num Lock key before any digits in passwords
and it's an unconscious habit to use the number pad rather than the top
row of the character  section of the keyboard.

2)  I have my BIOS quieted, but Grub (I guess) is rather verbose.  I
changed the setting in etc/default/rcS to VERBOSE=no but it doesn't seem
to make any difference :-(  Is there a way to quiet the Linux boot?

3)  How do I put the monitor (only) to sleep after say 10 minutes of
inactivity.  On my Mac I do this with an Energy Saver setting and also
did it on the PC when it had Windoze (about the only thing it did well :-)

One list issue also that I hate to bring up given the Unsubscribe
thread :-)  and I did send the question to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
but have received no answer (though two days is not unreasonable :-). I
found this list on GMANE also so I can follow it and post from my NR.
The problem is that I still also get the emails and am reluctant to send
an unsubscribe fearing I might then not be able to post from my NR.
Is this a catch-22?

Thank you for your patience,
Lee C



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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Arafangion]

On Tuesday 20 December 2005 15:01, CaT wrote:
 On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 09:31:55PM -0600, Kent West wrote:
  It suggested Kubuntu and Mepis for me; it said Debian failed to have my
  preferred desktop environment (KDE). What?!! (I'm using KDE on Debian
  right this moment.) Oh well.

 I didn't like the fact that there wasn't a 'Neither' or 'Other' option
 to that so I chose 'What's the difference?' and told it I didn't need to
 be told. Still, in the end it recommended (in order): Debian, Ubuntu,
 Kubuntu, Mepis and Linspire.

 I think I'm a debian user. :)

Personally, I feel that if one says that they are willing to _pay_, the test 
should not recommend Debian, but rather the commercial distributions, that 
bundle nice stuff out of the box.

Still, Debian is a terrific OS.


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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Alvin Oga]

On Tue, 20 Dec 2005, Arafangion wrote:

 Personally, I feel that if one says that they are willing to _pay_, the test 
 should not recommend Debian, but rather the commercial distributions, that 
 bundle nice stuff out of the box.

the folks willing to pay real $$$ will usually dictate what the want and
why .. it doesn't matter whether you/we agree with their choices or not
or the way they run their distros, network, security, backups, etc, etc...

you can't change their mind, more like i can't usually change their minds 
unless they're solicting (professional) opinions of what to do 

- it's a lot easier to change things when the shit hit the fan
and now understand the avoidable problems

- they usually have some newbie or windoze folks runing the shop for them
  and we have to be more professional in appearance/words to make a 
  reasonable choice

- suse and redhat is the 2 worst possible distro, but people still pay 
  real big $$$ for it... and its good for job security

- nice commercial bundles does not always solve the customers
with $$$ because they usually have specific problems they need 
solved

- if they have the time and $$$ and realistic ideas of how to
  accomplish their goals, they get what they want ...

c ya
alvin


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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[hendrik]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 09:27:27PM -0300, Gabriel wrote:
 Mike McCarty wrote:
 
 Never take the advice of people who use spellings like
 kewel, n33t, and abbreviate you to u, etc.
 
 Could you please explain me why? Just to know
 And what does kewel means? :-P
 am I very ignorant?

No.  They are.

-- hendrik


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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Kent West]

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 09:27:27PM -0300, Gabriel wrote:
  

Mike McCarty wrote:


Never take the advice of people who use spellings like
kewel, n33t, and abbreviate you to u, etc.
  

Could you please explain me why? Just to know
And what does kewel means? :-P
am I very ignorant?


No.  They are.

  

It seems to me that some of you folks are being a bit too harsh on users
of such spellings. I've known plenty of kids[1] who speak leet who are
[ otherwise ;-) ] very smart. Don't judge a book by it's cover; Don't
stereotype; etc, and all that 

Footnote:
1. I've also known adults who have dabbled in leet, who are quite sharp.

-- 
Kent



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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Aaron Stromas]

On 12/20/05, Kent West [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 09:27:27PM -0300, Gabriel wrote:
Mike McCarty wrote:Never take the advice of people who use spellings likekewel, n33t, and abbreviate you to u, etc.
Could you please explain me why? Just to knowAnd what does kewel means? :-Pam I very ignorant?No.They are.
It seems to me that some of you folks are being a bit too harsh on usersof such spellings. I've known plenty of kids[1] who speak leet who are[ otherwise ;-) ] very smart. Don't judge a book by it's cover; Don't
stereotype; etc, and all that Footnote:1. I've also known adults who have dabbled in leet, who are quite sharp.

choosing to communicate in an incomprehensible way on the wide public forumdoesn't strike me asparticularly smart.

-a

Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Chinook]

Aaron Stromas wrote:

On 12/20/05, *Kent West* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

[EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 09:27:27PM -0300, Gabriel wrote:


Mike McCarty wrote:


Never take the advice of people who use spellings like
kewel, n33t, and abbreviate you to u, etc.


Could you please explain me why? Just to know
And what does kewel means? :-P
am I very ignorant?


No.  They are.



It seems to me that some of you folks are being a bit too harsh on
users
of such spellings. I've known plenty of kids[1] who speak leet
who are
[ otherwise ;-) ] very smart. Don't judge a book by it's cover;
Don't
stereotype; etc, and all that 

Footnote:
1. I've also known adults who have dabbled in leet, who are quite
sharp.

 
choosing to communicate in an incomprehensible way on the wide public 
forum doesn't strike me as particularly smart.
 
-a


 



Ahem, no contention on my thread please :-)   Before you think who does 
this old fart think he is, I saw the original reply as a bit of levity 
- something we can all use in today's world.  Even if I had considered 
it otherwise, I would have just ignored it - life's a catch-22 from the 
naivety of youth to the frailty of age.  I do understand the irritation 
- some still school age members of the family think geometry is an 
antiquated subject :-(


All in all I'm impressed by this list.  My original post was intended 
to solicit  practical comments relative to how I might satisfy both 
extremes  of OS usage  with one Linux  distribution .  The long and 
short is, of course, build it yourself, but I was not sure where to 
start from to avoid the reinventing the wheel steps.  Your comments 
were very helpful in my deciding that the best starting point (for me) 
is Debian.


I had posted the query on several boards, as much to (personally) gage 
the depth and quality of the respective communities as to solicit 
views.  Now you're probably thinking but of course - we're the cream of 
the crop, and that is generally my take :-)


There is, as you know, a wealth of information on the Debian site and 
I'm proceeding well (and carefully) through it before I pop in the basic 
system install CD I burned.  That is, in between chores for she who 
must be obeyed. 


Best to all, and may your holidays be happy and fruitful.
Lee C
The early bird may get the worm but the second mouse gets the cheese. 
-- Willie Nelson



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OT: Leet-speak WAS:[Help with Linux selection please?]

[Kent West]

Aaron Stromas wrote:


On 12/20/05, *Kent West* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I've known plenty of kids[1] who speak leet who are
[ otherwise ;-) ] very smart.

 
choosing to communicate in an incomprehensible way on the wide public 
forum doesn't strike me as particularly smart.


Agreed; but I didn't say the practice was smart; I just suggested that 
it's a bit harsh to claim that a person is not worth listening to simply 
because he does something not particularly smart, which is what the 
original post about leet-speak implied. With that logic, we might 
conclude that the inventor of the cure for cancer is not worth listening 
to just because he likes to do his own tattoing on his own backside 
(which most would deem, I suspect, as not particularly smart).


Chinook: sorry we've hijacked your thread. We're all one big, happy 
family on this list, and like all families, sometimes get into 
interesting side discussions. Usually they don't last too long (although 
sometimes . . .), and most of the time they are fairly civil.


Aaron's right; list communications should be conducted in understandable 
language; but on the other hand, I think that whereas it's okay to scold 
the offender slightly, we should not knee-jerk react by marking his 
input as unworthy of attention.


--
Kent


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Re: OT: Leet-speak WAS:[Help with Linux selection please?]

[Andrew Sackville-West]

Kent West wrote:

Aaron Stromas wrote:


On 12/20/05, *Kent West* [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

I've known plenty of kids[1] who speak leet who are
[ otherwise ;-) ] very smart.

 
choosing to communicate in an incomprehensible way on the wide public 
forum doesn't strike me as particularly smart.



Agreed; but I didn't say the practice was smart; I just suggested that 
it's a bit harsh to claim that a person is not worth listening to simply 
because he does something not particularly smart, which is what the 
original post about leet-speak implied. With that logic, we might 
conclude that the inventor of the cure for cancer is not worth listening 
to just because he likes to do his own tattoing on his own backside 
(which most would deem, I suspect, as not particularly smart).


Chinook: sorry we've hijacked your thread. We're all one big, happy 
family on this list, and like all families, sometimes get into 
interesting side discussions. Usually they don't last too long (although 
sometimes . . .), and most of the time they are fairly civil.


Aaron's right; list communications should be conducted in understandable 
language; but on the other hand, I think that whereas it's okay to scold 
the offender slightly, we should not knee-jerk react by marking his 
input as unworthy of attention.


just for the record, since I'm the one who started the leet speak on 
this thread. it was a joke. I don't use it in any context except as a 
joke. Frankly, I have to spend lots of time figuring it out when I see 
it as it doesn't compute in my head. Thankfully, Chinook got it and 
laughed... phew.


now back to my 733t m4d hax0rs skillz

A

;)







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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Gabriel]

Arafangion wrote:

  On Tuesday 20 December 2005 15:01, CaT wrote:
  
  
On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 09:31:55PM -0600, Kent West wrote:


  It suggested Kubuntu and Mepis for me; it said Debian failed to have my
preferred desktop environment (KDE). What?!! (I'm using KDE on Debian
right this moment.) Oh well.
  

I didn't like the fact that there wasn't a 'Neither' or 'Other' option
to that so I chose 'What's the difference?' and told it I didn't need to
be told. Still, in the end it recommended (in order): Debian, Ubuntu,
Kubuntu, Mepis and Linspire.

I think I'm a debian user. :)

  
  
Personally, I feel that if one says that they are willing to _pay_, the test 
should not recommend Debian, but rather the commercial distributions, that 
bundle "nice stuff" out of the box.

Still, Debian is a terrific OS.


  

It's IMO because it includes free and non-free distros
(as free beer, not as free speech ;-)).
It's like when you go to a library and say: yes, I'm looking for a $10
book. They'll show you $1-$10 books (if theres is one that costs $1 =P)
as you're expressing that you probably have $10 in your pocket and you
don't care about expending them, but you don't have to expend
them.

-- 
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Linux User #404138

"In theory there's no difference between the theory and the practice. In the practice There is."

Re: OT: Leet-speak WAS:[Help with Linux selection please?]

[Steve Lamb]

Kent West wrote:
 Aaron's right; list communications should be conducted in understandable
 language; but on the other hand, I think that whereas it's okay to scold
 the offender slightly, we should not knee-jerk react by marking his
 input as unworthy of attention.

I disagree.  Simply put if someone cannot bother to put some effort into
making their writing moderately comprehensible why should I be expected to put
any effort into decyphering it?

-- 
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   PGP Key: 8B6E99C5   | main connection to the switchboard of souls.
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Re: OT: Leet-speak WAS:[Help with Linux selection please?]

[Hal Vaughan]

On Tuesday 20 December 2005 08:25 pm, Steve Lamb wrote:
 Kent West wrote:
  Aaron's right; list communications should be conducted in understandable
  language; but on the other hand, I think that whereas it's okay to scold
  the offender slightly, we should not knee-jerk react by marking his
  input as unworthy of attention.

 I disagree.  Simply put if someone cannot bother to put some effort
 into making their writing moderately comprehensible why should I be
 expected to put any effort into decyphering it?

Hey!  After all, it's not like he top-posted it.

Hal


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Re: OT: Leet-speak WAS:[Help with Linux selection please?]

[Arafangion]

On Wednesday 21 December 2005 12:25, Steve Lamb wrote:
 Kent West wrote:
  Aaron's right; list communications should be conducted in understandable
  language; but on the other hand, I think that whereas it's okay to scold
  the offender slightly, we should not knee-jerk react by marking his
  input as unworthy of attention.

 I disagree.  Simply put if someone cannot bother to put some effort
 into making their writing moderately comprehensible why should I be
 expected to put any effort into decyphering it?

Especially if the intent of l33t speak is to simply show off how g33ky you 
are, and demonstrate your technical skills.  Such childish behaviour would 
certainly be irritating to those who actually *are* very, very aquanted with 
computers (programming, administration, etc).


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Re: OT: Leet-speak WAS:[Help with Linux selection please?]

[Gene Heskett]

On Tuesday 20 December 2005 20:25, Steve Lamb wrote:
Kent West wrote:
 Aaron's right; list communications should be conducted in
 understandable language; but on the other hand, I think that
 whereas it's okay to scold the offender slightly, we should not
 knee-jerk react by marking his input as unworthy of attention.

I disagree.  Simply put if someone cannot bother to put some
 effort into making their writing moderately comprehensible why
 should I be expected to put any effort into decyphering it?

For the most part I agree with Steve.  Leet msgs do not get as much 
attention as the leet writer hopes they would.  In other words, use 
something resembling plain english on an english list please.

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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Mike McCarty]

Chinook wrote:
I have an X86 based PC (with a ATI AIW 8500 card) on my LAN that I'm 
expunging XP from and am trying to decide which Linux to install.  I AM 
NOT :-) looking for a heated debate of which is best (whatever that 
means), but rather which might better facilitate a couple personal 
general criteria.


Hmm, just looked this over. I hope it isn't overkill/too long/
confusing. I might point out that as far as *using* Linux, there's
very little difference between distros. It's in *system admin*
where they differ from each other, mostly. To put it another
way, what people call Linux is really not Linux at all, but
the GNU project software, which is the same for all distros.
Linux per se is just a kernel, which is pretty much the same
in all distros as well. The admin tools, like the ones for
getting updates, and specific files' contents which control
boot etc. are what make the major differences between distros.

There is a multitude of Linux distros out there. You haven't really
given a list of requirements, but I'll start out a little list here

(1) Not a LiveCD, want to boot/run from hard disc
(2) Not reduced feature set, this is not a server
want to try a GUI
(3) I have a reasonably new processor, so I'm not trying
to make it run on a 486, I have a relatively new BIOS
and can boot from CD
(4) I do/do not want to do my own support (with the help
of mail echoes or whatever)

I'm familiar with Red Hat Enterprise, Blue Hat, CentOs, Scientific
Linux, Debian, and Fedora Core. (Though I know of SuSE, Mandrivia
[formerly Mandrake] and several others, I'm not familiar enough
with them to give good info or advice on them.)

Red Hat Enterprise is a fully supported product with a good history, but
I have one little issue with it: Churn. There is constant pressure
to upgrade to the next level. For something I pay for support, I'd
want something a little longer lived. Also, their x.0 releases
are notorious for needing some tweaking. It also has a bunch
of non-free/proprietary software bundled, which is either a
good thing or a bad thing, depending on your view.

Blue Hat is for Real Time, and I suppose you don't want to pay
quite as much as they ask.

CentOs is the same as Red Hat Enterprise, with the non-free parts
stripped off, and re-built by volunteers. Support is, however,
very weak IMO. The people participating in the e-mail echo are
pretty sharp, and very helpful. But at least one of the list
managers seems to be very partisan, and there is a lot of bickering
(can you say constant flame wars?). I'd run CentOS if it weren't
for the way the e-mail list is managed. CentOS for me is a bust
due to that.

Scientific Linux is like CentOS, but by a different group,
a bunch of physicists etc. So it's essentially the same
software. I haven't participated in their mail echo, so
I don't know how supportive it is.

Debian is fairly stable and the e-mail echo is pretty helpful,
mostly. I don't use Debian, but I finally persuaded my girlfriend
to try Linux again, and things are so much better now than they
were with RH 6.2 when she last tried it. She tried several
LiveCDs I burned for her, and decided that Knoppix and Kanotix looked
best. These are both Debian based. I also pursuaded her that Knoppix
was not a good install, so I got her Debian. Frankly, there have been
a few problems with it, and the help here has been spotty for her. But
I've seen lots of good help for others with problems, and flame wars
are, if not precisely non-existent, at least not obtrusive (unlike
CentOS, which is rife with strife). Anyway, I subscribe here to
get help for her. BTW, most help really is valid for all distros,
so unless the issue is with the installer or upgrader or something
like that, most any echo can help.

Fedora Core is a project, not a product. It's what I run, though
it probably isn't what I should have installed. It's for those
who like to experiment with the bleeding edge, so to speak. New
and experimental features are constantly being introduced. Lots of
churn. New releases come out about every 6 mos, and there is a lot
of pressure to load the new stuff for a variety of reasons, including
they need testers to run the stuff. I consider it beta test releases,
though some of the people over at the Fedora echo get their hackles
up when I say that. There is also a policy of two releases and you're
out, which means that, for example, when Fedora Core 4 came out,
all support for Fedora Core 2 (which I run) was dropped. There is,
however, a Fedora Legacy group doing volunteer support FOR SECURITY
ISSUES ONLY which back-ports changes in software. Since FC5 is about
to come out, they are about to pick up FC3 (the release after mine).
Even the Legacy support goes away after two more, so FC1 is about
to lose support even from Legacy (though there is some discussion of
possibly extending support). Again, this is only for SECURITY issues,
no feature support.

1) My wife will be using it for documents and 

Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Mike McCarty]

Andrew Sackville-West wrote:



Chinook wrote:

I have an X86 based PC (with a ATI AIW 8500 card) on my LAN that I'm 
expunging XP from and am trying to decide which Linux to install.  I 
AM NOT :-) looking for a heated debate of which is best (whatever that 
means), but rather which might better facilitate a couple personal 
general criteria.



ummm... this is the debian users list, so ...

USE DEBIAN!! ;) it r0x and all the 733t hax0rz uze it!

cheers.


Oh, one piece of advice I forgot to mention:

Never take the advice of people who use spellings like
kewel, n33t, and abbreviate you to u, etc.

But you already knew that, didn't you?

Mike
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I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!


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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Mike McCarty]

Kent West wrote:

Chinook wrote:



am trying to decide which Linux to install.




1) My wife will be using it for documents and communication.  I'm sure
OpenOffice will satisfy the documents use, and she prefers Thunderbird
and Firefox for communications.  Oh yes, she says she has to have her
card games :))

2) I mainly play at (I'm supposedly retired) software development on
my PMac G5 using ObjC/Cocoa.  I would like to be able to expand into
the Linux world using GNUstep.

So, a combination of a simple home system and one on which an old SE
can keep his head busy :-)  I'm comfortable using Unix, but have had
no experience using Linux.

Though it may be as unneeded as on a Mac, I'll want to include ClamAV
or an equivalent.  Some sort of firewall would also be a
consideration, as well as a volume cloning tool for backup and
whatever system maintenance tools might be appropriate.  Maybe I'll
even have more luck keeping it networked with my Mac than I had with XP.



Lots of folks like Ubuntu.


I've heard a lot of good things about Ubuntu, though I've never
used it. I've heard two bad(?) things about Ubuntu. One is that
it, like Mandrake, has a semi-commercial air to it, and some
suppose that it might turn commercial some time or other.
The other is that it may be difficult to migrate from Ubuntu
to some other distro, as it's somewhat non-stock with some
kernel and other changes.

Mandrake has gone commercial, and is now called Mandrivia.
So there is precedent for such a conversion, and if migration
is an issue, then...

Take this with a grain of salt, as I haven't used it, and
am only reporting what I've heard from others who do.

Mike
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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Andrew Sackville-West]

Mike McCarty wrote:

Kent West wrote:


Chinook wrote:



am trying to decide which Linux to install.





1) My wife will be using it for documents and communication.  I'm sure
OpenOffice will satisfy the documents use, and she prefers Thunderbird
and Firefox for communications.  Oh yes, she says she has to have her
card games :))


Mike's comments below about Ubuntu apply well here. I installed it on an 
old G3 Imac for my mother to use. The interface is very polished and 
installation was pretty straightforward. I had to tweak a few Xorg 
settings and I've heard anecdotally that this is required more often 
than not. The interface is very polished and it looks and feels like a 
commercial product. Definitely passes the MUT (mother usability test). 
The commercial feeling may be a good thing for non-tech users and it 
comes with a bunch of card games out of the box (plus of course the 
entire debian repository is available).


.02

A


2) I mainly play at (I'm supposedly retired) software development on
my PMac G5 using ObjC/Cocoa.  I would like to be able to expand into
the Linux world using GNUstep.

So, a combination of a simple home system and one on which an old SE
can keep his head busy :-)  I'm comfortable using Unix, but have had
no experience using Linux.

Though it may be as unneeded as on a Mac, I'll want to include ClamAV
or an equivalent.  Some sort of firewall would also be a
consideration, as well as a volume cloning tool for backup and
whatever system maintenance tools might be appropriate.  Maybe I'll
even have more luck keeping it networked with my Mac than I had with XP.




Lots of folks like Ubuntu.



I've heard a lot of good things about Ubuntu, though I've never
used it. I've heard two bad(?) things about Ubuntu. One is that
it, like Mandrake, has a semi-commercial air to it, and some
suppose that it might turn commercial some time or other.
The other is that it may be difficult to migrate from Ubuntu
to some other distro, as it's somewhat non-stock with some
kernel and other changes.

Mandrake has gone commercial, and is now called Mandrivia.
So there is precedent for such a conversion, and if migration
is an issue, then...

Take this with a grain of salt, as I haven't used it, and
am only reporting what I've heard from others who do.

Mike



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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Kelly Clowers]

On 12/19/05, Mike McCarty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Kent West wrote: Chinook wrote:am trying to decide which Linux to install.1) My wife will be using it for documents and communication.I'm sureOpenOffice will satisfy the documents use, and she prefers Thunderbird
and Firefox for communications.Oh yes, she says she has to have hercard games :))2) I mainly play at (I'm supposedly retired) software development onmy PMac G5 using ObjC/Cocoa.I would like to be able to expand into
the Linux world using GNUstep.So, a combination of a simple home system and one on which an old SEcan keep his head busy :-)I'm comfortable using Unix, but have hadno experience using Linux.
Though it may be as unneeded as on a Mac, I'll want to include ClamAVor an equivalent.Some sort of firewall would also be aconsideration, as well as a volume cloning tool for backup and
whatever system maintenance tools might be appropriate.Maybe I'lleven have more luck keeping it networked with my Mac than I had with XP. Lots of folks like Ubuntu.
I've heard a lot of good things about Ubuntu, though I've neverused it. I've heard two bad(?) things about Ubuntu. One is thatit, like Mandrake, has a semi-commercial air to it, and somesuppose that it might turn commercial some time or other.
The other is that it may be difficult to migrate from Ubuntuto some other distro, as it's somewhat non-stock with somekernel and other changes.Mandrake has gone commercial, and is now called Mandrivia.
So there is precedent for such a conversion, and if migrationis an issue, then...Take this with a grain of salt, as I haven't used it, andam only reporting what I've heard from others who do.



I set up (and maintain) Kubuntu on my grandmother's computer, 

and I think it is a good choice from a user-friendly POV. It doesn't

seem very non-stock to me. I have used Ubuntu packages 
several times on my Debian box, and it worked about as well can
be expected. I doubt Ubuntu will go commercial, and if it did

it wouldn't be any more difficult to switch away from than any

other distro (if you wanted to). Ubuntu also has fresher packages

without having to use testing. I don't know if Ubuntu has GNUstep
in main, but I am sure it exists in universe.



Speaking of Mandrivia, that is probably my second choice for

being user-friendly. Mandrake was my main distro way back when

I was just getting into Linux, and although I haven't used it recently

I have heard plenty of good reports about its modern incarnation.

Regarding firewalls, there are many GUI frontends for IPTables/Netfilter,
but I have never had any luck with any of them. I always have to go
back to Shorewall (if only there was a Linux port of PF or even just 
a IPTables frontend with PF syntax... but I digress). A good firewall
setup is on Ubuntu's Dapper Drake (April 2006) todo list.
https://launchpad.net/distros/ubuntu/+spec/firewall

Re: card games - my grandmother loves the games Ubuntu includes :-)

Kelly

Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Chinook]

Mike McCarty wrote:

Chinook wrote:

...


Hmm, just looked this over. I hope it isn't overkill/too long/
confusing. I might point out that as far as *using* Linux, there's
very little difference between distros. It's in *system admin*
where they differ from each other, mostly.  ...


Not at all - interesting.  Basically what is dawning on me.  I've been 
off reading all the Debian info and just got back to my email.



There is a multitude of Linux distros out there. You haven't really
given a list of requirements, but I'll start out a little list here

(1) Not a LiveCD, want to boot/run from hard disc

Yep

(2) Not reduced feature set, this is not a server
want to try a GUI

Yep

(3) I have a reasonably new processor, so I'm not trying
to make it run on a 486, I have a relatively new BIOS
and can boot from CD

A system I had built several years ago - basics:
Processorx86 Family 15 Model 2 Stepping 4 GenuineIntel ~2519 Mhz
BIOS Version/DateIntel Corp. MV85010A.86A.0025.P10.0203282158, 
3/28/2002

Intel(R) 82850/82860 Processor to AGP Controller - 2532
ALL-IN-WONDER RADEON 8500

(4) I do/do not want to do my own support (with the help
of mail echoes or whatever)

Do, with a question here and there when I stick my foot in it :-)


I'm familiar with ...




Good synopsis - thanks for the effort.  Being in my latter years and 
seeing the current swing of histories undefeatable cycles, especially 
the excesses of the suits (as in the last stage of the software cycle), 
I try to stick to paying the craftsman directly when needed.


1) My wife will be using it for documents and communication.  I'm 
sure OpenOffice will satisfy the documents use, and she prefers 
Thunderbird and Firefox for communications.  Oh yes, she says she has 
to have her card games :))


Any distro with X and either GNOME or KDE will run whatever you want.
I use GNOME as the window manager, others like KDE. You can start
flame wars on nearly any Linux mail echo by criticising either, or
promoting either. ...


Been trying to avoid contention because it's counter-productive :-)  
I'll probably go with GNOME for what little the wife (she who must be 
obeyed) needs, and use mostly Terminal and the GNUstep GUI myself.





As far as games, GNOME and KDE both come with a game set, but either
can load and run games written for the other, in my experience anyway.



Good to know - thanks.

2) I mainly play at (I'm supposedly retired) software development on 
my PMac G5 using ObjC/Cocoa.  I would like to be able to expand into 
the Linux world using GNUstep.


Sorry, those words mean nothing to me. I'm an OS and Telecom man, so
I just don't know what they are, and probably can't advise on that
point.



My baby is a Dual 2.5 Power Mac G5 running OS X (10.4.3).  My choice 
of programming languages is Objective-C (the Object Oriented superset of 
C) and Cocoa is the developer Foundation (predefined and implemented OO 
classes for standard functionality) on OS X.  GNUstep is roughly the 
equivalent for *nix.



So, a combination of a simple home system and one on which an old SE 
can keep his head busy :-)  I'm comfortable using Unix, but have had 
no experience using Linux.


Well, if you're an old had at UNIX, then Linux will be like same song,
second verse, EXCEPT...

Being an experienced UNIX software developer (as I am) is *not* the
same thing as being an experienced Sys Admin. It took me months before
I learned enough to be fairly certain that I knew what needed to be
backed up, and what did not. 


Understood, thanks.


There is fairly vigorous debate over
what tools even to use. There are, for example, three basic schools
of thought: dump/restore, tar, and cpio. Each camp has its fans,
which are also detractors for the other two. (There's also the
rsync bunch, but I consider that a non-answer, as it simply places
the burden for backup on another machine.)


I wrote the article:
http://homepage.mac.com/lee_cullens/Bx3.htm



Anyway, you'll have to learn how to administer a machine, which is
quite different from using it. There are log files which must be
purged from time to time. Then there is /etc/fstab which is a world
of its own. User management is much less of an issue, though I'd
certainly have separate user names for each one using the machine.

I knew it would be an issue to resolve, but didn't know to what length 
I'd have to go to resolve it.  On OS X the chore is basically down to 
three periodic scripts that run automatically.  Of course such does not 
cover the users that trash parts of their /System directory so they will 
have more room for iTunes :-(((


Though it may be as unneeded as on a Mac, I'll want to include ClamAV 
or an equivalent.  Some sort of firewall would also be a 
consideration, as well as a volume cloning tool for backup and 
whatever system maintenance tools might be appropriate.  Maybe I'll 
even have more luck keeping it networked with my Mac than I had with XP.


Do you plan to run 

Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Chinook]

Sorry Mike - I left an l off the end of the link


I wrote the article:
http://homepage.mac.com/lee_cullens/Bx3.html  




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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Mike McCarty]

Chinook wrote:

Mike McCarty wrote:


Chinook wrote:


...


[snippy]



I wrote the article:
http://homepage.mac.com/lee_cullens/Bx3.htm


Hmm, browser couldn't find that URL...


[more snippy]



One possibility (and one I recommend, actually) is to get LiveCDs and
run off them for a while. That way, you can try out some stuff and
see what you like. Try http://www.frozentech.com/content/livecd.php



With MS's weekly so-called security updates and other issues, I decided 
to put my time to better use and just expunge XP. OT: The last time I 
took the PC in for servicing they wanted to run software to detect 
malware/etc.  I told them the only malicious software on the PC was Wsnip


Umm, the LiveCD link page I suggested is links to CDs from which you can
run various Linux distros without having to install. Knoppix and Kanotix
are both Debian based, for example.

Mike
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I can explain it for you, but I can't understand it for you.
I speak only for myself, and I am unanimous in that!


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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Gabriel]

Mike McCarty wrote:


Andrew Sackville-West wrote:




Chinook wrote:

I have an X86 based PC (with a ATI AIW 8500 card) on my LAN that I'm 
expunging XP from and am trying to decide which Linux to install.  I 
AM NOT :-) looking for a heated debate of which is best (whatever 
that means), but rather which might better facilitate a couple 
personal general criteria.



You will like to try out this:
http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/

Really, it will tell you what's the distro you have been looking for 
your whole life.
I used it, and guess what: I wouldn't change my Debian for nothing on 
the world.





ummm... this is the debian users list, so ...

USE DEBIAN!! ;) it r0x and all the 733t hax0rz uze it!

cheers.



Oh, one piece of advice I forgot to mention:

Never take the advice of people who use spellings like
kewel, n33t, and abbreviate you to u, etc.


Could you please explain me why? Just to know
And what does kewel means? :-P
am I very ignorant?



But you already knew that, didn't you?

Mike




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--
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Linux User #404138

In theory there's no difference between the theory and the practice. In the 
practice There is.


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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Mike McCarty]

Gabriel wrote:

Mike McCarty wrote:



[snip]


Oh, one piece of advice I forgot to mention:

Never take the advice of people who use spellings like
kewel, n33t, and abbreviate you to u, etc.



Could you please explain me why? Just to know
And what does kewel means? :-P
am I very ignorant?


kewel is a sort-of two-syllable phonetic spelling for cool, which
is a slang word in US English meaning very good or well done. When
spoken with this meaning, and intensified in the sentence, it is
often pronounced with two syllables as coo-uhl, with a falling
intonation. So kewel somewhat imitates that sound, but also
introduces an on-glide to the second syllable. Kew by itself
also has a palatal k implied, as in the english word queue.
So kewel could also be pronounced queue-uhl.

And, anyone who is impressed by such kinds of things is also
likely impressed by other extraneous issues, and not one to
consult for making serious decisions.

As for your degree of ignorance, I like what Will Rogers
(US homespun philosopher and stand-up entertainer) used
to say: Everybody is ignorant, just about different things.

Mike
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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Glenn English]

On Mon, 2005-12-19 at 21:27 -0300, Gabriel wrote:

 http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/

Wonderful test. It says I should be using Debian :-)

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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Mike McCarty]

Gabriel wrote:

Mike McCarty wrote:


Andrew Sackville-West wrote:




Chinook wrote:

I have an X86 based PC (with a ATI AIW 8500 card) on my LAN that I'm 
expunging XP from and am trying to decide which Linux to install.  I 
AM NOT :-) looking for a heated debate of which is best (whatever 
that means), but rather which might better facilitate a couple 
personal general criteria.




You will like to try out this:
http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/


[snip]

Hmm. I failed the test. I guess people who are security-conscious
should not run Debian. I don't permit other people's web programs
to run on my machine (no javascript).

Mike
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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Kent West]

Mike McCarty wrote:

 Gabriel wrote:

 Mike McCarty wrote:

 Andrew Sackville-West wrote:



 Chinook wrote:

 I have an X86 based PC (with a ATI AIW 8500 card) on my LAN that
 I'm expunging XP from and am trying to decide which Linux to
 install.  I AM NOT :-) looking for a heated debate of which is
 best (whatever that means), but rather which might better
 facilitate a couple personal general criteria.



 You will like to try out this:
 http://www.zegeniestudios.net/ldc/


 [snip]

 Hmm. I failed the test. I guess people who are security-conscious
 should not run Debian. I don't permit other people's web programs
 to run on my machine (no javascript).

 Mike

It suggested Kubuntu and Mepis for me; it said Debian failed to have my
preferred desktop environment (KDE). What?!! (I'm using KDE on Debian
right this moment.) Oh well.

-- 
Kent


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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Kelly Clowers]

It suggested Kubuntu and Mepis for me; it said Debian failed to have mypreferred desktop environment (KDE). What?!! (I'm using KDE on Debian
right this moment.) Oh well.--Kent
It says that because Debian doesn't have a preference or default.
It would claim that Debian doesn't have Gnome either. 
Kelly

Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[CaT]

On Mon, Dec 19, 2005 at 09:31:55PM -0600, Kent West wrote:
 It suggested Kubuntu and Mepis for me; it said Debian failed to have my
 preferred desktop environment (KDE). What?!! (I'm using KDE on Debian
 right this moment.) Oh well.

I didn't like the fact that there wasn't a 'Neither' or 'Other' option
to that so I chose 'What's the difference?' and told it I didn't need to
be told. Still, in the end it recommended (in order): Debian, Ubuntu,
Kubuntu, Mepis and Linspire.

I think I'm a debian user. :)

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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Andrew M.A. Cater]

On Sun, Dec 18, 2005 at 10:45:37PM -0500, Chinook wrote:
 I have an X86 based PC (with a ATI AIW 8500 card) on my LAN that I'm 
 expunging XP from and am trying to decide which Linux to install.  I AM 
 NOT :-) looking for a heated debate of which is best (whatever that 
 means), but rather which might better facilitate a couple personal 
 general criteria.
 
 1) My wife will be using it for documents and communication.  I'm sure 
 OpenOffice will satisfy the documents use, and she prefers Thunderbird 
 and Firefox for communications.  Oh yes, she says she has to have her 
 card games :))
 
Debian may do fine. Depends on the cardgames - but add in the games from
KDE games.
 2) I mainly play at (I'm supposedly retired) software development on my 
 PMac G5 using ObjC/Cocoa.  I would like to be able to expand into the 
 Linux world using GNUstep.
 
Debian possibly the only major distribution to have heard of GNUstep :)

 So, a combination of a simple home system and one on which an old SE can 
 keep his head busy :-)  I'm comfortable using Unix, but have had no 
 experience using Linux.
 
Shouldn't be too hard to switch.

 Though it may be as unneeded as on a Mac, I'll want to include ClamAV or 
 an equivalent.  Some sort of firewall would also be a consideration, as 
 well as a volume cloning tool for backup and whatever system maintenance 
 tools might be appropriate.  Maybe I'll even have more luck keeping it 
 networked with my Mac than I had with XP.
 
Clamav is there. IPtables and a GUI front end (guarddog) or script
(shorewall) to assist configuration will do your firewall. Volume
cloning - amanda for backup? partimage. Mac networking - Debian speaks
AppleTalk at least :)

 Any comments are appreciated.
 
Debian like distributions vary. Start with a LiveCD / DVD to test out
a system without really touching the hard disk. The latest KNOPPIX 4.02
DVD is really good for this. 

Ubuntu provides a smooth install - but a much smaller list of packages
by default. I prefer the KDE version kubuntu myself - but it doesn't
matter because one can be converted into the other straightforwardly :)
Try a live CD for (one of) Ubuntu (GNOME desktop) Kubuntu (KDE).

Once you've tried these for a week or so, then slide to a Debian
install. Debian stable will work well - but feels very old
to some people. Debian testing is updated much more regularly - but
there are occasional breakages as large packages like KDE
change API / library versions and have to be coaxed in - that usually
means a few days wait until your favourite application is there again. 
Debian unstable Just Works 99.9% of the time - but if it breaks, it breaks 
a lot :)

Lurk on the list for a couple of weeks and get a feel for user issues
and/or lurk on debian-devel to see the sorts of stuff going on there.
Most questions at user level really do belong on debian-user - if you
inadvertently post to the wrong list, someone may jump at you - but
others will probably answer a misplaced question anyway :)

HTH, all the above in my opinion only

Andy
 Thank you,
 Lee C
 
 
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Help with Linux selection please?

[Chinook]

I have an X86 based PC (with a ATI AIW 8500 card) on my LAN that I'm 
expunging XP from and am trying to decide which Linux to install.  I AM 
NOT :-) looking for a heated debate of which is best (whatever that 
means), but rather which might better facilitate a couple personal 
general criteria.


1) My wife will be using it for documents and communication.  I'm sure 
OpenOffice will satisfy the documents use, and she prefers Thunderbird 
and Firefox for communications.  Oh yes, she says she has to have her 
card games :))


2) I mainly play at (I'm supposedly retired) software development on my 
PMac G5 using ObjC/Cocoa.  I would like to be able to expand into the 
Linux world using GNUstep.


So, a combination of a simple home system and one on which an old SE can 
keep his head busy :-)  I'm comfortable using Unix, but have had no 
experience using Linux.


Though it may be as unneeded as on a Mac, I'll want to include ClamAV or 
an equivalent.  Some sort of firewall would also be a consideration, as 
well as a volume cloning tool for backup and whatever system maintenance 
tools might be appropriate.  Maybe I'll even have more luck keeping it 
networked with my Mac than I had with XP.


Any comments are appreciated.

Thank you,
Lee C


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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Kent West]

Chinook wrote:

 am trying to decide which Linux to install.

 1) My wife will be using it for documents and communication.  I'm sure
 OpenOffice will satisfy the documents use, and she prefers Thunderbird
 and Firefox for communications.  Oh yes, she says she has to have her
 card games :))

 2) I mainly play at (I'm supposedly retired) software development on
 my PMac G5 using ObjC/Cocoa.  I would like to be able to expand into
 the Linux world using GNUstep.

 So, a combination of a simple home system and one on which an old SE
 can keep his head busy :-)  I'm comfortable using Unix, but have had
 no experience using Linux.

 Though it may be as unneeded as on a Mac, I'll want to include ClamAV
 or an equivalent.  Some sort of firewall would also be a
 consideration, as well as a volume cloning tool for backup and
 whatever system maintenance tools might be appropriate.  Maybe I'll
 even have more luck keeping it networked with my Mac than I had with XP.

Lots of folks like Ubuntu.

For myself, the never have to worry about software being unFree nature
of Debian is a big plus for pure Debian. Also, Debian is very
maintainable, although it's not as newbie-friendly as some other distros.

Pretty much any distro will do the things you've specified; I don't
think these criteria will suffice for choosing a distro. You may have to
move to other criteria (such as the Freedom argument, mentioned above,
or such as commercial support, etc) to make your choice.

-- 
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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Kent West]

Chinook wrote:


Kent West wrote:

Chinook wrote:  

am trying to decide which Linux to install.  


Pretty much any distro will do the things you've specified; I don't
think these criteria will suffice for choosing a distro. You may have to
move to other criteria (such as the Freedom argument, mentioned above,
or such as commercial support, etc) to make your choice.  


I guess I basically looking for a good GUI for the wife without 
needing a lot of the home user playthings :-)  and a Unix like 
Terminal (I use Bash mostly) with the GNUstep package for 
development.  I had already narrowed my choice down to Debian and 
K/Ubuntu.  Assuming one has a good familiarity with the Unix Terminal 
and building packages with such, is the GUI fairly straight forward to 
build with Debian (or already included)?  I suppose one has choices?



Debian is all about choice. You want KDE? You got it. Gnome? Yep. Icewm? 
Fluxbox? TWM? Yep yep yep. Xterm? Yep. Eterm? Yep. Bash? Yep. Korn? Yep. 
tcsh? Yep. Virtual Terminals? Six by default; but configurable -- 
Debian's all about choice. Binary packages? 15,000 plus. Source 
auto-builder thingy? Yep (but I've never used it). Build manually from 
source? Yep. Compilers? Plenty. Interpreters? Lots.


For example, say you've got a bare-bones Debian install (which is easy - 
after all, this is Debian, where you have choice). If you decided you 
want X, just apt-get install x-window-system. Oh, you want KDE? 
apt-get install kde. You want OpenOffice.org? Just apt-get install 
openoffice.org. You want GNUstep? apt-get install gnustep.


Be aware that many folks (including myself) prefer to run the unstable 
branch (or the testing branch) for a desktop system, as you get newer 
software than you would with stable. Of course, you have to be willing 
to put up with the occasional bug (and more rarely, serious bug), but 
generally, stable gets too out of date too soon for most desktop users' 
preference (whereas stable is great for servers that just need to work, 
and work reliably).


--
Kent


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Re: Help with Linux selection please?

[Andrew Sackville-West]

Chinook wrote:
I have an X86 based PC (with a ATI AIW 8500 card) on my LAN that I'm 
expunging XP from and am trying to decide which Linux to install.  I AM 
NOT :-) looking for a heated debate of which is best (whatever that 
means), but rather which might better facilitate a couple personal 
general criteria.


ummm... this is the debian users list, so ...

USE DEBIAN!! ;) it r0x and all the 733t hax0rz uze it!

cheers.

A


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Re: Help with Linux command

[Steve Lamb]

Alvin Oga wrote:
if i understood correctly,  the original question was dealing with
partitions ...
This is true.  But if he's already installed (which he has) those 
partitions are populated.  Now, I'm not saying that the original poster is a 
complete neophyte as to think the data would move with the fstab entry but 
this list is archived and people do search it so an incomplete answer of 
switching the partitions without also mentioning that the user needs to move 
the data around as well might be a gotcha for someone else in the future. 
Best to be clear that the data needs to be moved by the user as well as the 
fstab entries being switched.  :)

--
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Re: Help with Linux command

[Alvin Oga]

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, Steve Lamb wrote:

 Alvin Oga wrote:
  if i understood correctly,  the original question was dealing with
  partitions ...
 
  This is true.  But if he's already installed (which he has) those 
 partitions are populated.  Now, I'm not saying that the original poster is a 
 complete neophyte as to think the data would move with the fstab entry but 
 this list is archived and people do search it so an incomplete answer of 
 switching the partitions without also mentioning that the user needs to move 
 the data around as well might be a gotcha for someone else in the future. 
 Best to be clear that the data needs to be moved by the user as well as the 
 fstab entries being switched.  :)

given /home has the correct home data and is say  2GB on say /dev/hdaxxx
given /usr  has the correct usr  data and is say 10GB on say /dev/hdayyy

if as in the original reply, to simply swap the /home and /usr partition

- there is two possible answers...

   a) change the mount points only ... 
  ( for simple swap partitions ( as mount points ) where the data 
  ( is in the correctly sized partitions
==
== it's a common problem for installing a new distro
== into the wrong partition because one forgot which
== one was assigned what size ??
==  ( double checking would have prevented it )
==

with current: /etc/fstab
---
/dev/hdaxxx /home  ( has /home/X11R6, /home/bin, /home/sbin )
/dev/hdayyy /usr   ( has /usr/tom /usr/dick /usr/harry )

New fstab with Swapped partitions ( mount points )
-
/dev/hdaxxx /usr   (is now /usr/X11R6 /usr/bin /usr/sbin )
/dev/hdayyy /home  (is now /home/tom /home/dick /home/harry )

==
== no copying of data is needed
==
all of the same home data that was on  /dev/hdayyy is now still 
as it was on /dev/hdayyy but is now called and accessed correctly
as /home/tom instead of /usr/tom like it was before

- the other is like you guys are doing, leaving the mount points the
  same and moving the data from one partition to another is a lot more
  work ( that may or may not be needed, depending on the desired partition
  size for each /usr and /home )
- moving data is messy but is trivial 2 command lines if one has
the space for holding both at the same time

- trick question is ... 
how much space is needed in /home vs /usr and is it
worth fixing by moving data from one partition into the other

- simple swapping of mount point is trivial, if the data is
in the correct sized partitions

=
= swapping mount points is a complete solution
= as was previously posted
=

c ya
alvin


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Re: Help with Linux command

[Steve Lamb]

Alvin Oga wrote:
given /home has the correct home data and is say  2GB on say /dev/hdaxxx
given /usr  has the correct usr  data and is say 10GB on say /dev/hdayyy

if as in the original reply, to simply swap the /home and /usr partition
You're making a false asumption.  From the original message:
If I want to swap the mount point and all it's content between /usr
and /home.
Swap the mount point *and all it's content*.
The disk space I originally intended for /usr and /home needs to be swapped.
Dsk space already needs to be swapped.
- there is two possible answers...

   a) change the mount points only ... 
Changing mount points doesn't help.  As said in the original message the 
content needs to be moved as well.

- the other is like you guys are doing, leaving the mount points the
  same and moving the data from one partition to another is a lot more
  work ( that may or may not be needed, depending on the desired partition
  size for each /usr and /home )
No, we're not.  We're saying to swap the mount points *and* move the data 
as per his initial request.

- moving data is messy but is trivial 2 command lines if one has
the space for holding both at the same time
We know he has enough space.  He said one parition is 2Gb.  That means 
the data there (home) is under 2Gb presently and the data in the other 
partition is able to fit into it; also 2Gb.  Since the 2nd partition is 10Gb 
he can easily fit 4Gb into that to make the swap.  ;)

- trick question is ... 
	how much space is needed in /home vs /usr and is it
  	worth fixing by moving data from one partition into the other
4Gb.
- simple swapping of mount point is trivial, if the data is
in the correct sized partitions
It isn't.
= swapping mount points is a complete solution
= as was previously posted
Except it leaves him with his usr on home and home on usr.  Even worse, 
as I pointed out, since usr houses a lot of essential programs one could have 
a really tough time recovering from that situation.

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Re: Help with Linux command

[Alvin Oga]

hi ya steve

On Sat, 1 Jan 2005, Steve Lamb wrote:

 Alvin Oga wrote:
  given /home has the correct home data and is say  2GB on say /dev/hdaxxx
  given /usr  has the correct usr  data and is say 10GB on say /dev/hdayyy
 
  if as in the original reply, to simply swap the /home and /usr partition
 
  You're making a false asumption.  From the original message:

yes and no .. depends on th point of view 
and just for clarification ...

 If I want to swap the mount point and all it's content between /usr
 and /home.

both mount points and data is moved ...

mount /dev/hdaxxx on /home
mount /dev/hdaxxx on /usr

but if one wants to take data on /dev/hdaxxx ( say 2GB ) and put that on
/dev/hdayyy ( say 10GB), than changing mount points will not help 

but, mounting /dev/ on /home or /foo-bar will move the data with it
except in one case its called(accessed differently) /home/tom or /foo-bar/tom
- data is moved for free 

c ya
alvin


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Re: Help with Linux command

[Steve Lamb]

Alvin Oga wrote:
yes and no .. depends on th point of view 
and just for clarification ...
No, no point of view.
If I want to swap the mount point and all it's content between /usr
and /home.

both mount points and data is moved ...
No data is moved.  You're presuming that he has them backwards and the 
data is on the correct physical volumes.

but if one wants to take data on /dev/hdaxxx ( say 2GB ) and put that on
/dev/hdayyy ( say 10GB), than changing mount points will not help 
Exactly!  That's what he said in the original message.  He realized he 
had mounted them incorrectly.  /usr was the 10Gb and /home was the 2Gb.  He 
wanted /home to be the 10Gb and /use the 2Gb.  Since they are *populated with 
data* he requested information not only on how to remount those partitions but 
how to *move the contents* as well.

but, mounting /dev/ on /home or /foo-bar will move the data with it
except in one case its called(accessed differently) /home/tom or /foo-bar/tom
	- data is moved for free 
Yes, we all get that.  It does not solve the problem that his /usr data 
is on a 10Gb partition, his /home data is on a 2Gb partition and the data 
needs to be swapped *and* remounted.

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