Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Moving to LibreOffice 8?

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I would just like to counter what Eyal Rosenberg says. Version number
should be a marketing decision.
But I agree with his points that marketing must consider that major
innovations or missing features should be included with a major number
change otherwise said number change will fall flat.
The number 8 is a great opportunity so it shouldn't be wasted without
having something impactful when it is launched.


Regina Henschel  escreveu no dia terça, 28/03/2023
à(s) 15:40:

> Hi Italo,
>
> the change from 6.x to 7.0 happens together with the change from ODF 1.2
> to ODF 1.3. If the decision it to keep this kind of numbering, I think a
> change to 8.0 should happen when LibreOffice starts support for ODF 1.4.
> ODF 1.4 will hopefully be released end of 2024.
>
> Kind regards,
> Regina
>
> Italo Vignoli schrieb am 27.03.2023 um 19:11:
> > Moving to LibreOffice 8 (instead of 7.6) makes sense for marketing
> > purposes, as media is looking at LibreOffice as the real innovator in
> > the open source office suite market, and the feeling of journalists is
> > that we are forever stuck at 7.x.
> >
> > We all know that the next version will not include any significant
> > innovation which can justify the change of version, apart from the new
> > build system for Windows and the availability of LibreOffice for Arm
> > processors on Windows (which has not been announced).
> >
> > Playing with the number 8, which can be rotated 90° to become the
> > "infinite" symbol, we can frame the next version as LibreOffice for an
> > infinite number of users, as we cover all hardware platforms and all
> > operating systems for personal productivity.
> >
> > This is my opinion. If the community wants to stick with 7.6, I won't
> > insist. I have received enough insults both public and private for the
> > marketing plan, and I am still receiving them from a few people, that I
> > am not willing to enter into that process again (even if the decision on
> > the "community" tag has not been mine, but it looks like people have a
> > very short memory).
> >
> > Looking forward to your thoughts.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Physics Based Animation Effect Presets - GSoC

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Wow, that's awesome Sarper!!
I'm going on vacations this week so I won't have time to check it but I'll
definitely look into it when I'm back. :D

On Wed, 19 Aug 2020 at 20:33, Sarper Akdemir 
wrote:

> Hello design people of LibreOffice,
>
> I'm Sarper, a GSoC student this year that works on adding new physics
> based animation effects to LO Impress.
>
> As the GSoC period comes to an end, I'm now working on preparing new
> animation effects that use the introduced physics simulation
> capabilities.
> Therefore, I thought I would let you know and invite you if you're
> interested in creating some new animation presets.
>
> Hopefully the whole implementation on my experimental branch will be
> merged by ~end of this week - and if you're really interested & don't
> want to wait :) you can pull & build from my experimental branch [1].
>
> You can check out my latest blog post [2] that has some example
> animation effect hierarchies - and the one before that [3] for further
> information.
>
> Looking forward to hearing from and hopefully collaborating with you :)
>
> [1]:
> https://git.libreoffice.org/core/+/refs/heads/private/quwex/gsoc-box2d-experimental
> [2]: https://quwex.com/gsoc20-week11/
> [3]: https://quwex.com/gsoc20-week10/
>
> Best regards,
> Sarper
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Two-years plan

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I fully agree with Andreas. It's necessary to define work methodology as
much as targets.
IMO, we should come up with targets for UI/UX that go beyond simply
offering new UIs.

I would define four topics where to work on:
*1 - The Back-end, the tools that are used to make UI work. *In this case I
believe that devs need to provide their feedback more. Right now we have
notebookbar UIs which use Glade, and the legacy toolbars. IMO, for the
future only one tool should be used. Thus, a migration of all UIs to the
Notebookbar framework should be organized. This does not mean ending the
user facing toolbar UIs, but simply creating toolbar UIs using Glade.
This would simplify the work for adding support to multiple UIs in the
future and decrease complexity. Plus, the Notebookbar is quite flexible for
extensions developers, since by simply adding the Notebookbar support,
extensions look good in any Notebookbar UI, if we make sure that the UIs
are working correctly.
a - Transition all UIs to Notebookbar,
b - Add support for necessary features to Notebookbar,
c - Add Notebookbar support to remaining modules (ex. Chart module),
d - Polish Extension support in Notebookbar.

*2 - Simplify and decrease the number of UIs on offer per platform. *IMO,
currently we have too many UIs and some are redundant. I believe that
choice should be offered to users but excess of choice can be overwhelming.
For example, we have three distinct toolbar layouts - probably offering one
is enough since differences between single toolbar, sidebar and double
toolbar are minimal.
As for the notebookbar UIs, the compact UIs probably make sense to use in
mobile or online platforms.
Also some of the notebookbar UIs are in need of work and iteration to
remain as a choice. If no one actively iterates on the Contextual UIs they
need to be removed since they're incomplete as they are right now.

*3 - Improve UI/UX in specific OSes, polish visual niggles, adopt universal
office suite shortcuts, uniformize the branding of the modules. *These are
the "lower priority" details that always get pushed down because there's
always something else to do and there's no dev that wants to waste their
time implementing this. However, these are issues that can make LibO feel
like a great software or something hastily put together.
Examples:
a - Correct the Notebookbar UI clipping issues in MacOS,
b - Support Dark modes in MacOS and Windows,
c - Support MacOS menus in top-bar (not sure how it's called),
e - Consistency to module looks (ex. Calc color is green so cells selected
should have a green highlight, not blue. Outline for selected text boxes in
Impress being brown instead of light blue),
f - improve theming support (ex. persona support per module - to adopt
module color by default, better persona support in some Notebookbar UIs).
d - Scroll bar smooth scrolling,
e - Improve integration of Chart module and Calc module. It's very jarring
to have to double-click on a chart to be able to edit it and something that
does not occur with any other object in LibO. It's necessary to open the
Chart module in Calc though. This is something that should change but I do
believe it might be a lot of work.

*4 - Uniformize tool usage between modules.* Not sure if this falls under
UI but it definitely falls under User Experience: the lack of consistency
in what some things do in different modules. Of the top of my mind: table
support in Writer and Calc. I'm sure more people can think of others.

Some of this would require a lot of coordination with devs willing to work
with the design team. Or for the design team to develop their coding skills
a bit more, which considering that it's mostly composed of unpaid
volunteers, it's  abiit hard to ask for more.

On Sun, 16 Aug 2020 at 13:01, kainz.a  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> Thanks for coming up with this topic, Heiko. The idea came to my mind after
> the discussion about a dialogue about the different UI / notebookbar
> implementations, where we discuss reducing the notebookbar implementations,
> ... I work very long on the different notebookbars and had always in mind
> to find a good solution for users AND developers. Which means that if there
> was a bug I made compromises cause there was no developer available, ... In
> the end nobody knows what to do with all this work. So I think it would be
> way more useful to make some targets and work on them instead of doing
> whatever you want and in the end nobody wants it.
>
> My general ideas for goals for a 2 year plan are:
> - find general UI solutions (HIG's) where ALL community members will work
> on.
> - define targets (meta bugs) where developers and designers will work on.
> - reduce different UI layouts to simplify the UI.
>
> Some more specific goals:
> - define the UI for desktop, mobile, tablet and web (LOOL) so that we have
> a unify "brand/layout"
> - have one theming engine for the different platforms which fit mobile,
> desktop, online, color scheme, ...
>
> I'm happy to 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Next year's GSoC project

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Is this solely about LibreOffice Design tasks?
If not I would like to propose support for table features in Calc and/or
adding native Remove Duplicates functionality.

On Fri, 7 Aug 2020 at 09:53, Heiko Tietze <
heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hello,
>
> since we are quite successful with the GSoC projects, which hopefully not
> only
> results from capable students and dedicated mentors but also well-prepared
> proposals, I'd like to start thinking about what we can do next year. For
> example: Table of Contents (tdf#135388), Bibliography (tdf#101258),
> Functions
> deck (tdf#92416), Find & Replace in a deck (tdf#95405), etc.
>
> So the question is: What (enhancement) request should we consider?
>
> Once the task is decided we have to collect all surrounding topics from
> Bugzilla, flesh out the requirements, and create mockups for a better
> solution.
> It's work for a couple of month, so I believe the time to start this is
> now.
>
> Thanks in advance for your input,
> Heiko
>
> PS: Sure, the many bugs should be solved first (perhaps with a "100 paper
> cuts"
> project) but that's nothing the design/UX team can support much.
> --
> Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor
> Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-DEC-04 (WED)

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

 * Tabbed UI (Writer): Division/section-per-tab (similar to Lotus WordPro)
   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33173
   + thumbs-up or down for the idea from UX?

About this Topic: Since in Calc there are the sheet tabs on the bottom, why
not make something similar for Writer?
To make it consistent with the other modules. Impress has the tabs for the
different viewing modes, but that is different than navigating in different
sections of a document file, while sheets in a spreadsheet is navigating
within a spreadsheet file.

From what I've read in the bug report, the Tabbed interface in Word Pro
does offer some interesting functionalities that Writer with the Navigator
does not (such as dragging and dropping different document sections by the
tab). The initial work of having visible tabs in the bottom like in Calc
shouldn't be hard to do though. Some UI work to display the sections
portion of the Navigator would be interesting.

However, all the WordPro specific functionality would require a lot of
work. I would explain in the bug report that that type of specific
functionality won't be done soon due to lack of dev availability (maybe ask
them to sponsor development?).
 What they seem to want is a new version of Word Pro with its specific
workflow.

On Tue, Dec 3, 2019 at 3:26 PM Heiko Tietze <
heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> the next design/UX meeting is on WEDNESDAY DEC/4th,
> 20:00 Berlin/CET/GMT+1 resp. 7pm UTC.
>
> Here is the agenda:
>
> Topics
>
>  * Repeat shortcut (Ctrl+Shift+Y) is too far for short-finger users using
> en (qwerty) keyboard
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=129058
>+ WFM (Heiko)
>+ perhaps alt+Y (Stuart)
>
>  * Wrong message text when deleting used style
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128785
>+ change to "...If you delete these styles, text/formatting will
> revert..."
>
>  * Missing warning when renaming page with same name
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=129032
>+ WFM, explanatory text in the simple input box might be some effort
>
>  * EDITING: “Enter“ in first Cell of Table Creates a Paragraph above Table
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=51689
>  + WF (bad solution to the problem)
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=71501
>  + make it a duplicate of
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=71503
>  + handle enter special at the very first position in tables
>  + remove special alt+enter
>
>  * Tabbed UI (Writer): Division/section-per-tab (similar to Lotus WordPro)
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=33173
>+ thumbs-up or down for the idea from UX?
>
>
> Full pad including backlog is here:
> https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/design
>
> Hope to see you on Jitsi at https://jitsi.documentfoundation.org/design
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>
> --
> Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor
> Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Branding for release 7

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I would love to see the splash screen designed by Rizal being used.

On Wed, Nov 20, 2019 at 9:07 AM Heiko Tietze <
heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> time has come to consider required work for the next major release. For
> the past version 5 and 6  we created a special branding that is shown on
> the splash screen, the start screen, the about box, and on the Windows
> installer. The previous artwork is here [1] and input for the next release
> there [2] and I'd like to ask you for ideas, comments, contributions.
>
> Some food for thought: Seven is a prime number, seen as a lucky number but
> also as the opposite in Asia, the week has 7 days, there are 7 dwarfs,
> psychologists know a "blue-seven phenomenon" [3], there are 7 continents on
> earth, some countries such as U.K. use heptagonal coins, people who like
> soccer know "CR7"... it's a magic number!
>
> Let's make release 7 pure mojo!
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>
> PS: We considered for 6.0 also to keep the original triangles and never
> change this aspect of branding.
>
> [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding#Releases
> [2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Marketing/Branding/Ideas
> [3] https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/pdf/10.2466/pms.1977.45.2.648
> [4]
> http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/Branding-6-0-tc4215079.html
> --
> Dr. Heiko Tietze, UX-Designer and UX-Mentor
> Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2019-NOV-06

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

There's no vertical separators in W10 in inactive tabs...

On Thu, Nov 7, 2019, 09:00 Heiko Tietze 
wrote:

> The ticket is still open, I'm investigating the issue. On W10 we do have
> vertical separators, on Linux it depends on the desktop environment and
> theme.
>
> On 07.11.19 09:39, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> > If I might give my feedback here about Calc sheet tabs:
> > I think it was Andreas and someone else who changed it in 6.3?
> > Even though one of the guys replying in the bug is rude, I would adjust
> the padding, but keep the new design. Also, add a visual vertical separator
> between inactive tabs.
> >
> > On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 7:25 PM Heiko Tietze <
> heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org  heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org>> wrote:
> >
> > Present: Heiko (with input from Cor, Dieter, and Pedro)
> >
> > Tickets
> >
> >  * clone-brush needs more functions
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128344
> >+ options to solve this:
> >  + change tooltip to "Clone Formatting (double click to make it
> sticky and Ctrl/Cmd to clone paragraph style)"
> >  + introduce menu button with default as today and the two
> functions "Multiple Clone" and
> >"Close Format only" like for New, Open, Save (Dieter, Cor)
> >  + keep as it is (WF) (Heiko)
> >=> introduce a menu button
> >
> >  * TABLE-PROPERTIES: Add "Row" tab
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128351
> >+ add tab for row height in properties dialog as we have for col
> width (Dieter, Cor)
> >=> go for it, but mockup needed
> >
> >  * restart manually numbering of numbered lists
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128282
> >+ add "Restart Numbering" to paragraph context menu (Dieter)
> >  + available under Bullets and Numbering (if cursor is in a list)
> >=> WFM
> >
> >  * Calc sheet tabs: Option to make compact (use smaller font and
> less padding like in <=6.2)
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127892
> >+ introduce an option to reduce margins on sheet tabs
> >+ new design was choosen carefully, difference is just a few
> pixels => no options needed (Pedro)
> >+ weird screenshot submitted by OP
> >=> looks like another issue
> >
> >  * PARAGRAPH STYLE DIALOG: "Reset" and "Standard" buttons: confusing
> names
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128469
> >+ remove Reset (and Standard) functions from the dialogs (Heiko)
> >+ Standard is the only way to revert changes made to inherited
> styles (Regina)
> >+ Reset is done via Cancel but not when Apply is avilable
> >+ rename functions (Cor)
> >=> seeking for proposals on better names
> >
> >
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> --
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> Tel: +49 30 5557992-63 | Mail: heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2019-NOV-06

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

If I might give my feedback here about Calc sheet tabs:
I think it was Andreas and someone else who changed it in 6.3?
Even though one of the guys replying in the bug is rude, I would adjust the
padding, but keep the new design. Also, add a visual vertical separator
between inactive tabs.

On Wed, Nov 6, 2019 at 7:25 PM Heiko Tietze <
heiko.tie...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:

> Present: Heiko (with input from Cor, Dieter, and Pedro)
>
> Tickets
>
>  * clone-brush needs more functions
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128344
>+ options to solve this:
>  + change tooltip to "Clone Formatting (double click to make it sticky
> and Ctrl/Cmd to clone paragraph style)"
>  + introduce menu button with default as today and the two functions
> "Multiple Clone" and
>"Close Format only" like for New, Open, Save (Dieter, Cor)
>  + keep as it is (WF) (Heiko)
>=> introduce a menu button
>
>  * TABLE-PROPERTIES: Add "Row" tab
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128351
>+ add tab for row height in properties dialog as we have for col width
> (Dieter, Cor)
>=> go for it, but mockup needed
>
>  * restart manually numbering of numbered lists
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128282
>+ add "Restart Numbering" to paragraph context menu (Dieter)
>  + available under Bullets and Numbering (if cursor is in a list)
>=> WFM
>
>  * Calc sheet tabs: Option to make compact (use smaller font and less
> padding like in <=6.2)
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=127892
>+ introduce an option to reduce margins on sheet tabs
>+ new design was choosen carefully, difference is just a few pixels =>
> no options needed (Pedro)
>+ weird screenshot submitted by OP
>=> looks like another issue
>
>  * PARAGRAPH STYLE DIALOG: "Reset" and "Standard" buttons: confusing names
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=128469
>+ remove Reset (and Standard) functions from the dialogs (Heiko)
>+ Standard is the only way to revert changes made to inherited styles
> (Regina)
>+ Reset is done via Cancel but not when Apply is avilable
>+ rename functions (Cor)
>=> seeking for proposals on better names
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-documentation] Tip Of The Day

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Ah! This is a genius idea. :D

On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 5:57 PM Drew Jensen 
wrote:

> Howdy,
>
> Great idea.
>
> So, I took a quick scan and noticed a type in tip 28. Fixed it in the pad
> but can't get an editable view in NC with the direct link and couldn't find
> it doing a quick scan through the shared folders. Can you post where it is
> there and I would do that there also.
>
> Best wishes,
>
> Drew
>
> On Wed, Apr 10, 2019 at 11:38 AM Heiko Tietze 
> wrote:
>
> > We have the awesome daily tip on Twitter and shouldn't withhold this
> great
> > resource of knowledge to our actual users. So I implemented a
> > tip-of-the-day dialog that pops up once per day when a module is started.
> > There is no sequence and the "Next tip" button and what comes the other
> day
> > is random (just to not store the last used id). Advanced users can easily
> > disabled the dialog. It will be in the nightly build tomorrow (or the
> next
> > days).
> >
> > For now I used the strings from
> > https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/marketing. But not all tips are
> > up-to-date and it may need some revisions for proper English. I'd like to
> > ask you to go through the list and change the strings or remove, if
> needed.
> > Of course, additions are also also welcome. For collaborative work it's
> > shared on https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/D6zAC5wddW83xWT
> >
> > Every string may contain of _one_ hyperlink, which is separated from the
> > text (taken from "http" until the end of the line). Single \ need
> escaping
> > \\.
> >
> > Last but not least every tip can have a small illustration (max 120px
> > IIRC; larger sizes increase the dialog width). The first tip searches for
> > tipoftheday_0.png, the second for tipoftheday_1.png etc. If not present,
> > the light bulb from our gallery is shown. I believe those images could
> be a
> > really cool eye catcher and helpful to get the point of the tip. That's a
> > task for our great designers. Just send me the images or store it
> somewhere.
> >
> > Thanks a lot in advance,
> > Heiko
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2019-Feb-14

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

  * Remove option to adjust icon size at the Notebookbar
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=122799
>+ NB is not a replacement for standard toolbar and rather than having
> customization
>  we/the community should provide different NB variants
>+ agree (Franklin)
>=> kill it with fire
>

I am with Andreas on this and I am vehemently against the idea of removing
the option to adjust icon size in the Notebookbar.
Although this was discussed in the design meeting this should also be
discussed in the bug. As of now there are 2 against two votes for removing
or maintaining this.

I am also completely against not having customization options for the
Notebookbars. Some minimal options should be given to allow adjustment that
facilitate the use of the UI.
And there's work ongoing to allow extensions to register on the
Notebookbar. So give it time for that to be implemented.


>  * notebookbar additional settings for label arrangement
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123171
>+ WFM, see also
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=122799 (icon size)
>=> see above; no customization for NBs
>

I would provide a different rationale for this: changing label position has
a big probability of messing up the UI. If the purpose is to offer a
touch-friendly UI then design an exclusive touch-friendly UI.


Furthermore, there's talk in this bug about allowing extensions to register
their buttons on Notebookbar.
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101704

So not being hasty and crippling Notebookbar options seems hasty to me.

On Thu, Feb 14, 2019 at 1:28 PM Heiko Tietze  wrote:

> Present: Franklin, Heiko
>
> Tickets
>
>  * Wrong behavior using template via "Open Template"
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=104074
>+ rename _Open_ template to _Edit_  (Franklin)
>+ File > New > Templates... unclear and should be renamed to "From
> Template..."
>+ File > Templates > Manage Templates dialog now only has the feature
> to new from template.
>  should provide more features (like renaming, editing...) to "manage"
> these templates (Franklin)
>+ alternatively rename to "New From Template..." but we would go back
> once the managing functions are implemented
>=> go with the renaming of Open to Edit only; AI: check other tickets
> for template managing functions
>
>  * TEMPLATES -- "open new" instead of "open" // at "Templates / Manage
> Templates"
>  * Writer TEMPLATES -- renaming menu titles to be more intuitive --
> TEMPLATES
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123216
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123178
>=> dup of tdf#104074
>
>  * When opening the navigator, the caret is no longer positioned on the
> list
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=122900
>+ see c3, c5
>+ wiki on shiortcuts
> https://help.libreoffice.org/Writer/Shortcut_Keys_for_Writer is not up to
> date
>+ guideline on how F6 works for the sidebar
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/SideBar
>+ however, accessing the styles per F11 jumps directly to the list
>=> lets have it as requested in the ticket; opening the Navigator with
> F5 should focus the first list item;
>   but going per F6 through the controls starts at the Navigator's
> toolbar
>
>  * Remove option to adjust icon size at the Notebookbar
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=122799
>+ NB is not a replacement for standard toolbar and rather than having
> customization
>  we/the community should provide different NB variants
>+ agree (Franklin)
>=> kill it with fire
>
>  * notebookbar additional settings for label arrangement
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123171
>+ WFM, see also
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=122799 (icon size)
>=> see above; no customization for NBs
>
>  * Menubar -> Edit -> Comment group
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123255
>+ Edit > "Edit Hyperlink" below "Comments" and View > "Show Comments"
> below "Track Changes"
>+ always being careful when known menu structure is changed (Heiko)
>+ both are part of the review process but it makes not a big difference
> (Franklin)
>=> do not change unless more people agree (keep ticket open)
>
>  * Styles Menubar show icons
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123261
>+ requested is to add the existing styles icons (see formatting
> (styles) toolbar) to the menu
>=> no objection, good idea
>
>
>
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Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2019-Feb-14

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

>   * Remove option to adjust icon size at the Notebookbar
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=122799
>+ NB is not a replacement for standard toolbar and rather than having
> customization
>  we/the community should provide different NB variants
>+ agree (Franklin)
>=> kill it with fire
>

I am with Andreas on this and I am vehemently against the idea of removing
the option to adjust icon size in the Notebookbar.
Although this was discussed in the design meeting this should also be
discussed in the bug. As of now there are 2 against two votes for removing
or maintaining this.

I am also completely against not having customization options for the
Notebookbars. Some minimal options should be given to allow adjustment that
facilitate the use of the UI.
And there's work ongoing to allow extensions to register on the
Notebookbar. So give it time for that to be implemented.


>  * notebookbar additional settings for label arrangement
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=123171
>+ WFM, see also
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=122799 (icon size)
>=> see above; no customization for NBs
>

I would provide a different rationale for this: changing label position has
a big probability of messing up the UI. If the purpose is to offer a
touch-friendly UI then design an exclusive touch-friendly UI.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Well, it already has the same or better functionality with open source
solutions so it's already way cooler in that regard. Now it just needs to
support VBA so that more orgs will migrate to it and notice that it's way
cooler. :)

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 10:09 AM kainz.a  wrote:

> maybe it's true, but I would prefer to have first level support for open
> source solutions instead of look that LibO is compatible with MSO macros.
> Have the same (or better) functionality with open source solutions would be
> way cooler (maybe in cooperation with LOOL and Cloud storage.
>
> Am Di., 12. Feb. 2019 um 10:58 Uhr schrieb Pedro Rosmaninho <
> mota.pr...@gmail.com>:
>
>> These are the types of compatibility issues that really cripple LO
>> adoption, even moreso than full file format compatibility.
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:57 AM Pedro Rosmaninho 
>> wrote:
>>
>> > Well adding support for VBA would be nice, since it's not developed by
>> > Microsoft anymore but they wont remove.
>> > So why not add support for it, even without removing LO's
>> implementation?
>> >
>> > On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:35 AM Olivier Hallot <
>> > olivier.hal...@libreoffice.org> wrote:
>> >
>> >> Hi Franklin
>> >>
>> >> Em 11/02/2019 09:21, Franklin Weng escreveu:
>> >> > This Python scripts help is for LibreOfficeDev (6.3) ONLY, right?
>> >>
>> >> Actually these pages are for any LibreOffice release, Python  scripts
>> >> were available from lng time. But we started adding Help pages
>> after
>> >> string freeze deadline for 6.2. For what it worth, "6.3" is the master
>> >> branch.
>> >>
>> >> Regards
>> >>
>> >> --
>> >> Olivier Hallot
>> >> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
>> >> Comunidade LibreOffice
>> >> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
>> >> http://tdf.io/joinus
>> >>
>> >>
>> >> --
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>> >
>>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

These are the types of compatibility issues that really cripple LO
adoption, even moreso than full file format compatibility.

On Tue, Feb 12, 2019 at 9:57 AM Pedro Rosmaninho 
wrote:

> Well adding support for VBA would be nice, since it's not developed by
> Microsoft anymore but they wont remove.
> So why not add support for it, even without removing LO's implementation?
>
> On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:35 AM Olivier Hallot <
> olivier.hal...@libreoffice.org> wrote:
>
>> Hi Franklin
>>
>> Em 11/02/2019 09:21, Franklin Weng escreveu:
>> > This Python scripts help is for LibreOfficeDev (6.3) ONLY, right?
>>
>> Actually these pages are for any LibreOffice release, Python  scripts
>> were available from lng time. But we started adding Help pages after
>> string freeze deadline for 6.2. For what it worth, "6.3" is the master
>> branch.
>>
>> Regards
>>
>> --
>> Olivier Hallot
>> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
>> Comunidade LibreOffice
>> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
>> http://tdf.io/joinus
>>
>>
>> --
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>>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Well adding support for VBA would be nice, since it's not developed by
Microsoft anymore but they wont remove.
So why not add support for it, even without removing LO's implementation?

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 11:35 AM Olivier Hallot <
olivier.hal...@libreoffice.org> wrote:

> Hi Franklin
>
> Em 11/02/2019 09:21, Franklin Weng escreveu:
> > This Python scripts help is for LibreOfficeDev (6.3) ONLY, right?
>
> Actually these pages are for any LibreOffice release, Python  scripts
> were available from lng time. But we started adding Help pages after
> string freeze deadline for 6.2. For what it worth, "6.3" is the master
> branch.
>
> Regards
>
> --
> Olivier Hallot
> LibreOffice Documentation Coordinator
> Comunidade LibreOffice
> Rio de Janeiro - Brasil - Local Time: UTC-03:00
> http://tdf.io/joinus
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Thank you and Gerhard for clearing this up to me.

Calc has several limitations and quirks that make it harder for companies
to even consider replacing Microsoft Office with LibreOffice, but IMO this
is the most important one.
I can't speak for Italy, but in Portugal barely any big organization uses
Access. They all do their work in Excel but they require macros.
And no organization would even consider replacing Microsoft Office if
there's no macro compatibility. Hundreds of spreadsheets with macros that
would have to be converted?

This is not the correct mailing list for this, I know but was it ever
considered to move from StarBasic to VBA?

On Mon, Feb 11, 2019 at 2:42 AM Franklin Weng 
wrote:

> On February 11, 2019 7:44:49 AM GMT+08:00, Pedro Rosmaninho <
> mota.pr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >How do the macros in LO work? I thought they were Basic macros? What's
> >the
> >difference for the VBA macros of excel?
> >
>
> StarBasic, not Visual basic.  Excel VBA cannot directly convert to
> StarBasic so they need to be rewritten or recorded again.
>
> I would suggest using Python to recreate macros instead of using
> StarBasic, just that currently there is not many documents available.
>
> --
> Franklin Weng, Member, Board of Director & Certification Commitee
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
>
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
>
> Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

How do the macros in LO work? I thought they were Basic macros? What's the
difference for the VBA macros of excel?

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 10:41 PM Franklin Weng 
wrote:

> On February 11, 2019 2:08:58 AM GMT+08:00, Italo Vignoli <
> it...@documentfoundation.org> wrote:
> >I cannot disagree more. In Italy, most enterprises and every public
> >administration are using Microsoft Access, and this represents a
> >problem
> >when they have to migrate to LibreOffice (as Base is not seen as a good
> >replacement for Microsoft Access, because is missing the scripting
> >feature).
> >
> >On 10/02/2019 10:56, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> >> Just to mention that Microsoft Access (the equivalent to Base) is
> >barely
> >> used in the professional world.
> >> Usually companies use Excel and connect it to MySQL or apps like
> >PowerBI
> >> depending on the purpose.
> >>
> >> On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 9:40 AM Heiko Tietze 
> >wrote:
> >>
> >>> While the idea of the Notebookbar is exactly this, to provide
> >completely
> >>> different UIs, I doubt we can make Base "a variant of Calc“. But you
> >are
> >>> very welcome to draft the idea or implement yourself (should be
> >possible
> >>> for everyone who uses mailing lists).
> >>>
> >>>> Am 07.02.2019 um 21:26 schrieb Miguel Mayol :
> >>>>
> >>>> I had today a idea i think is a very good one:
> >>>>
> >>>> One interface option - better if it is the default one - in LO BASE
> >>> equal to the CALC one
> >>>>
> >>>> The reason is that people are using EXCEL for databases
> >>>> because they do not know
> >>>> because they have the cheaper version of MSO without Access
> >>>> and because they think it is "easier"
> >>>>
> >>>> Doing this and a promo viral video that shows that it is
> >>>> - as easy as a spreadsheet to insert  and show data
> >>>> - and as powerful as a database to deal with it,
> >>>> especially addressed to university professors and PhD students,
> >probably
> >>> would increase a lot the use of BASE in substitution of MS Excel for
> >>> managing databases, and the use of other components of LibreOffice.
> >>>>
> >>>> I went to bugzilla, but I was not able to log in, so sorry, but as
> >I
> >>> only collaborate with suggestions, I did not want this one that I
> >think is
> >>> great, and probably very easy to implement, to pass by.
> >>>>
> >>>> I remembered an old database named FileMaker that  was very easy to
> >use
> >>> because it had a interface near to what a spreadsheet is.
> >>>
> >>>
> >>> --
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> >>
> >
> >
> >--
> >Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR
> >email italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org
> >mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - skype italovignoli
> >hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com
> >The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
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> Currently in enterprise migration there are still two big gaps : Macros
> and Databases.  IIRC a few years before when we talked about this, the
> solutions were that we'd help the customers to use *real* rational
> databases like MySQL/Mariadb, …etc., with some simple web interfaces (MySQL
> admin?) to replace Access.  After all, Access or Base is just(?) front-end
> agents of these real databases.
>
> --
> Franklin Weng, Member, Board of Director & Certification Commitee
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
>
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
>
> Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2019-Feb-06 (Wed)

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Just to mention that Microsoft Access (the equivalent to Base) is barely
used in the professional world.
Usually companies use Excel and connect it to MySQL or apps like PowerBI
depending on the purpose.

On Sun, Feb 10, 2019 at 9:40 AM Heiko Tietze  wrote:

> While the idea of the Notebookbar is exactly this, to provide completely
> different UIs, I doubt we can make Base "a variant of Calc“. But you are
> very welcome to draft the idea or implement yourself (should be possible
> for everyone who uses mailing lists).
>
> > Am 07.02.2019 um 21:26 schrieb Miguel Mayol :
> >
> > I had today a idea i think is a very good one:
> >
> > One interface option - better if it is the default one - in LO BASE
> equal to the CALC one
> >
> > The reason is that people are using EXCEL for databases
> > because they do not know
> > because they have the cheaper version of MSO without Access
> > and because they think it is "easier"
> >
> > Doing this and a promo viral video that shows that it is
> > - as easy as a spreadsheet to insert  and show data
> > - and as powerful as a database to deal with it,
> > especially addressed to university professors and PhD students, probably
> would increase a lot the use of BASE in substitution of MS Excel for
> managing databases, and the use of other components of LibreOffice.
> >
> > I went to bugzilla, but I was not able to log in, so sorry, but as I
> only collaborate with suggestions, I did not want this one that I think is
> great, and probably very easy to implement, to pass by.
> >
> > I remembered an old database named FileMaker that  was very easy to use
> because it had a interface near to what a spreadsheet is.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice on Android - a different path?

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

With the current push that Google has been giving to ChromeOS - including
making it capable of running Android apps - it would be a good idea to have
a direct port of the desktop version of LibreOffice in the Play Store since
it could be used in Chromebooks. Chromebooks are personal computers and
this is a platform that LibreOffice should consider extending into.

On Tue, Dec 4, 2018 at 4:55 AM Tim-L  wrote:

> I am asking to all of these lists to give it a wider possible look.
>
> I know there is a named port of LibreOffice 5.x.x onto Android via
> AndroPorts.  They have AndroPorts:LibreOffice as one of the ported to
> their Linux desktop environment for Android.
>
> They have the needed system to have others create ports of software that
> can play on their Android system.
>
> SO, I am wondering if there is a way for the developing team[s] to work
> on a newer ported version than the 5.x.x version currently on Google
> Play store?  The system is free, so that is one in their favor.
>
> I did install it on a Fire HD 10 tablet which I installed the 4 needed
> APK files to use Google Play Store along with Amazon's Fire App Store.
>
> I do not remember what "rabbit hole" I went down that showed the system
> to me.
>
> I have installed AndroPorts and both the ports of LibreOffice and GIMP.
> For me, with a Bluetooth Keyboard and Mouse, it looks promising.  I do
> not have a Bluetooth Mouse, so I could not fully test it out.  This may
> be the needed push to buy one of these mice.  I have several Bluetooth
> keyboards.
>
> SO, it might be worth looking at this system.  This will give
> LibreOffice and TDF control of the port of LibreOffice "Editing Suite"
> to a Android Platform.  Then that could be used till a direct Android
> version of LibreOffice that will read/write/edit the supported files.  I
> have to use AndrOpen Office to avoid using MS Office Suite packages like
> the official version of  Word for Android.  I really want to see
> LibreOffice take over the Android market, or at least as much as it can.
>
>
>
> Timothy Lungstrom
>
> 300 South Main St. Apt 10C5, Elmira New York, USA, 14904.
>
> timo...@lungstrom.com
> webmas...@libreoffice-na.us
>
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Re: [libreoffice-projects] Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar out of Experimental

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I can reinstall the VM but it was atrociously slow. I don't have a Mac
myself.

Maybe an event to do bug hunting in MacOS could be organized and advertised?

Na(o) seg, 12/11/2018, 14:41, Michael Meeks 
escreveu:

> Hi there,
>
> On 09/11/2018 11:58, Edoardo Maria Elidoro wrote:
> > I do agree to move the Notebookbar out of experimental.
> > The latest updates on the Tabbed Toolbar in the master branch improved
> both
> > the usability and the look & feel making it (in my opinion) a really
> useful
> > and nice feature to have.
> >
> > I don't see a single reason why we should keep it in experimental.
>
> IIRC the ESC agreed to have the option to enable it appear by
> default
> at least in the run up to 6.2 to encourage more people to play with and
> (hopefully) debug the functionality.
>
> Hopefully it will be in a good enough state for 6.2 final - but
> there
> is no real magic way to make developers come & get involved and fix the
> shortcomings short of encouraging them when they show up, and
> evangelizing to / mentoring them.
> > Il giorno mar 6 nov 2018 alle ore 17:50 Pedro Rosmaninho <
> > mota.pr...@gmail.com> ha scritto:
> >
> >> - As for MacOS glitches, I tried it on a MacOS VM and the issues are
> minor
> >> aesthetic issues that do not impact its functionality. In fact, there
> are
> >> far more serious glitches in LO on MacOS not related with the
> notebookbar
> >> that warrant more attention.
>
> Would be interested in a tracker bug for those; I'm interested in a
> good, ordered list of the nastiest Mac bugs to fix.
>
> Thanks !
>
> Michael.
>
> --
> michael.me...@collabora.com <><, GM Collabora Productivity
> Hangout: mejme...@gmail.com, Skype: mmeeks
> (M) +44 7795 666 147 - timezone usually UK / Europe
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar out of Experimental

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Just as a side note. I've been using the Tabbedbar in 6.1 Fresh release
daily in my work on Windows 10.
None of those open issues are something that affect the functionality of
the Tabbed bar in daily use.

- The chart editing toolbar issue is expecially annoying but it is also
something that happens with the Standard Toolbars, since performing chart
editing also replace the Standard Toolbar by the Cart Editing toolbar. If
anything the Tabbedbar is *superior* in that regard because it remains
visible when the chart editing toolbar is present.

- As for MacOS glitches, I tried it on a MacOS VM and the issues are minor
aesthetic issues that do not impact its functionality. In fact, there are
far more serious glitches in LO on MacOS not related with the notebookbar
that warrant more attention.

So please lets move the Notebookbar out of experimental. The Groupedbars
and Tabbedbars are in great shape.



On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 4:43 PM Pedro Rosmaninho 
wrote:

> Please, this would be amazing.
>
> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 7:42 AM kainz.a  wrote:
>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I know the notebookbar implementation has bugs but it's under development
>> since around 4 years and on each release the news pages wrote about this
>> experimental feature.
>>
>> I talked at Munich Hackfest about the big open bugs
>> - bad keyboard navigation
>> you can use F6 like in every other LibO app (F6 switch from Menubar to
>> Toolbar to NB to Sidebar), but it would be awesome if
>> svtlo-ManagedMenuButton will support keyboard shortcut focus if menubar is
>> hidden and also sfxlo-NotebookbarToolBox widgets which was used to add the
>> different uno commands didn't work with F6 -> tab
>> I hope to get some patches to fix this issue, you are welcome to help.
>>
>> - chart didn't support NB
>> the chart bug (if you open an chart in writer you see the notebookbar and
>> the toolbar) can be fixed by add an NB to chart module (which I can do)
>> and
>> use this NB instead of the chart toolbar. But there is no progress in this
>> change cause chart if different from other modules.
>>
>> - OS-X glitches
>> on OS-X there are several UI issues. I don't have an Mac so I can't say to
>> much.
>>
>> The biggest issue is that there is NO developer working on the NB stuff.
>> We
>> talk each release to bring NB out of experimental. As there is no real
>> progress (excluding the ui files) I recommend to bring some
>> implementations
>> (tabbed, groupedbar) ouf of experimental for 6.2. Than we get more user
>> feedback and maybe some new developers.
>>
>> cheers
>> Andreas_K
>>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar out of Experimental

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Please, this would be amazing.

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 7:42 AM kainz.a  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I know the notebookbar implementation has bugs but it's under development
> since around 4 years and on each release the news pages wrote about this
> experimental feature.
>
> I talked at Munich Hackfest about the big open bugs
> - bad keyboard navigation
> you can use F6 like in every other LibO app (F6 switch from Menubar to
> Toolbar to NB to Sidebar), but it would be awesome if
> svtlo-ManagedMenuButton will support keyboard shortcut focus if menubar is
> hidden and also sfxlo-NotebookbarToolBox widgets which was used to add the
> different uno commands didn't work with F6 -> tab
> I hope to get some patches to fix this issue, you are welcome to help.
>
> - chart didn't support NB
> the chart bug (if you open an chart in writer you see the notebookbar and
> the toolbar) can be fixed by add an NB to chart module (which I can do) and
> use this NB instead of the chart toolbar. But there is no progress in this
> change cause chart if different from other modules.
>
> - OS-X glitches
> on OS-X there are several UI issues. I don't have an Mac so I can't say to
> much.
>
> The biggest issue is that there is NO developer working on the NB stuff. We
> talk each release to bring NB out of experimental. As there is no real
> progress (excluding the ui files) I recommend to bring some implementations
> (tabbed, groupedbar) ouf of experimental for 6.2. Than we get more user
> feedback and maybe some new developers.
>
> cheers
> Andreas_K
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2018-Oct-24

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

But I am all for using lines in zoomable plus mode, it makes the grid way
more useful in deep zoom levels.

On Thu, Oct 25, 2018 at 11:21 AM Pedro Rosmaninho 
wrote:

>
>
>>  * Grid lines
>>+ blue color https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85450
>>+ dark grey https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348
>>  + https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/62025/
>>+ use lines (zoomable plus) instead of dots
>> https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg08925.html
>>   + Loving this ^. Perhaps the plus should be ¶-blue, for better
>> contrast (and as a compromise of both color ideas)? (Adolfo)
>>+ and/or independently from zoom
>>+ make color optional?
>>+ (patch submitted meanwhile)
>>=> file new tickets for a) optional color, b) optional static grid
>> with dots depending on screen resolution (see also night mode)
>>   rather than canvas distance (we should take care of jumping issues
>> in relation to the anchors), c) have a symbol (plus)
>>   indicator instead the dot
>>
>
> Just one comment on color: I would be against blue since it is not a
> neutral color. I would make it dark gray or black. It is already possible
> to change grid color in the Options menu. So for those that want to change
> it maybe we should make it easier to find that option? IOnstead of digging
> to the Options menu (it's not easy to find), make something to make it more
> easy to find.
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the UX/design meeting 2018-Oct-24

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

>
>  * Grid lines
>+ blue color https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85450
>+ dark grey https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348
>  + https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/62025/
>+ use lines (zoomable plus) instead of dots
> https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg08925.html
>   + Loving this ^. Perhaps the plus should be ¶-blue, for better
> contrast (and as a compromise of both color ideas)? (Adolfo)
>+ and/or independently from zoom
>+ make color optional?
>+ (patch submitted meanwhile)
>=> file new tickets for a) optional color, b) optional static grid with
> dots depending on screen resolution (see also night mode)
>   rather than canvas distance (we should take care of jumping issues
> in relation to the anchors), c) have a symbol (plus)
>   indicator instead the dot
>

Just one comment on color: I would be against blue since it is not a
neutral color. I would make it dark gray or black. It is already possible
to change grid color in the Options menu. So for those that want to change
it maybe we should make it easier to find that option? IOnstead of digging
to the Options menu (it's not easy to find), make something to make it more
easy to find.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] In the drawing, the functions of "normal preset contact" and "magnify preset contact" are added.

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Dear 和尚蟹,

The purpose of the mailing list is not to do bug reports. If you wish to do
so you can register and submit bugs and requests for enhancement at
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/ .
You'll probably get more devs to look at your bugs over there as well.

All the best,
Pedro

On Thu, Oct 18, 2018 at 8:37 AM 和尚蟹  wrote:

> "Normal preset contact" is the current contact.
> "Magnify the preset contact" is a 0.3 cm red frame contact.
>
> Note:
> 1, "normal preset contact", the contact is too small and not good.
> 2, "Magnify the preset contact", the contact is better, but the contact is
> too large, the position is too close, and will overlap.
> 3. According to the use environment, switching between “normal preset
> contact” and “magnifying preset contact” is the best way to improve working
> speed.
>
>
> <
> http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/file/t495194/Image_4.png>
>
>
>
> <
> http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/file/t495194/Image_5.png>
>
>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Zoom in grid

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Yes please. I also complained about this and the horrible contrast of the
grid.

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 8:40 AM 和尚蟹  wrote:

> Because of the current grid, it is only a point to look at, so it will not
> be
> clear. If you zoom in on the grid, you will see it clearly.
>
>
>
> <
> http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/file/t495194/Image_1.png>
>
>
>
>
>
> <
> http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/file/t495194/Image_5.png>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2018/Sep/19

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

It would be nice, however it would be nicer if we could get some dev
support to finish up the Notebookbar to take it out of experimental mode.

On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 7:20 PM V Stuart Foote 
wrote:

> Forwarding response rcvd PM...
>
>
> From: Miguel Mayol
> Date: Thu, 20 Sep 2018 19:34:45 +0200
> Subject: Re: Fwd: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting
> 2018/Sep/19
> To: V Stuart Foote
>
> Thanks a lot for understanding the concept. It costs me a lot to be
> understand.
>
> As for MOUSE utility SMART HIDE is more important, but this would be, for
> new users, a fingers friendly unified design, with almost zero training -
> AZT - from one device to other, and phones are far more used than desktop
> PCs, and if LO becomes the "de facto" tablet and phone office suite as it
> is
> finger friendly other kind of menu - traditional text one - would not
> welcome this new finger friendly users to come to the desktop and web
> version.
>
> I think LO can do as Chrome did with MSIE, obliterate MSO, because it is
> much better and in this case FOSS when MSO isn't.
>
> Improving menus, - a material design alike approach would be also good, but
> I do think nested icons - ideograms in vertical dock plus 3x3 nested icons
> -
> ideograms with subtittle if needed   is better
>
> And putting in valor LO base when many people use MS Excel as database as
> MS
> Access is not inside the basic and cheaper MSO bundle teaching LO base with
> mini cases escenarios for university teachers / pupils  that are AZT and
> improve their productivity using computers can also be a good strategy.
>
> But that BASE promotion is a work someone hired to do so by the foundation
> should do, some day. or i think so.
>
> And with finger friendly menus and versions for Android it will be much
> easier to do.
>
>
>
>
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Re: Notebookbar in LibreOffice 6.2 Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

It appears Kshitij Pathania will try to keep working on the Notebookbar. We
should keep incentivizing him so that he won't fade away.

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 12:13 PM kainz.a  wrote:

>
> Is it possible if someone implement first time wizard to choose interface?
>>
>
> Or maybe at least an slideshow to the installer.
>

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Re: Notebookbar in LibreOffice 6.2 Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

There are some things on the layout that need to be improved and do not
require a dev. Some things that can be done with Glade. :)

As for having a dev to work on bugfixing I completely agree with you.

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:35 AM kainz.a  wrote:

> As long as there is no developer how will do bugfixing for at least 2
> releases we don't have to talk about change defaults.
>
> Maybe we can show an startup configuration dialogue or like ubuntu did
> show how to change to another layout.
>

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Re: Notebookbar in LibreOffice 6.2 Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

And I would love to see the tabbed bar as the default in Windows... I think
most skepticism against a Ribbon UI comes from Linux LO users so for those
I would retain the classic toolbar.

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 9:22 AM Pedro Rosmaninho 
wrote:

> We have to see if Kshitij has any interest in finishing the polishing of
> the Tabbed bar. And what about Szymon Klos, Andreas? Would he be available?
>
> As for the tabbed bar, there's still some improvements that I would like
> to suggest in the general layout. Minor things.
> And the other day I found a toolbar that was activated in the tabbed bar
> that shouldn't be active.
> And yes, chart editing is the big block right now.
>
> On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 5:43 AM kainz.a  wrote:
>
>> Hi Cor
>>
>> There are two bugs that should be fixed first.
>>
>> 1. Keyboard navigation didn't work well
>> 2. Chart module don't respect NB. Add an chart to writer and see the
>> issue.
>>
>> but the main issue is, there is NO developer how will fix bugs when nb is
>> out of experimental. This has to be fixed first. If there is one dev how
>> care about upcoming bugs than nb can be out of experimental and than I be
>> motivated to finish the nb work, cause there is some work missing like nb
>> for draw.
>>
>> If you find a developer, let me know, than it would be a pleasure for me
>> to
>> work with her/him. It would be the right time to start now for 6.2
>>
>> Cheers
>> Andreas_k
>>
>> infinitytec  schrieb am Do., 13. Sep. 2018,
>> 00:23:
>>
>> > I agree.
>> > I have been really enjoying the polish that the tabbed Notebookbar has
>> in
>> > 6.1.
>> >
>> > Dare I even say it may be a good idea to have the tabbed notebookbar as
>> > default on Windows builds? It would better integrate with the system,
>> like
>> > Colibre.
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > *Any sufficiently advanced technology is magic to those who do not
>> > understand it.*
>> > *-A variation on Clarke's Third Law*
>> >
>> >  Original message 
>> > From: Cor Nouws 
>> > Date: 9/12/18 3:57 PM (GMT-06:00)
>> > To: "kainz.a" , Mike Saunders <
>> > mike.saund...@documentfoundation.org>
>> > Cc: design@global.libreoffice.org
>> > Subject: Notebookbar in LibreOffice 6.2 Re: [libreoffice-design]
>> > Notebookbar   status for LibreOffice 6.1
>> >
>> > Hi Andreas, all,
>> >
>> > kainz.a wrote on 30-05-18 10:02:
>> >
>> > > Groupedbar and Tabbedbar's are ready. I already update the UI so that
>> > they
>> > > can be "released". Groupedbar and Tabbedbar has a full and a compact
>> > view.
>> > > ...
>> >
>> > As far as I've seen, all is still under experimental in master 6.2
>> >
>> > It would support testing / visibility to already change that now.
>> > What do you think?
>> >
>> > --
>> > Cor Nouws
>> > GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28  A038 E49D 7365 B134
>> 80A6
>> > - vrijwilliger https://nl.libreoffice.org
>> > - volunteer https://www.libreoffice.org
>> > - Member Board The Document Foundation
>> > - http://www.nouenoff.nl / https://www.mijnclouoffice.nl
>> >
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Re: Notebookbar in LibreOffice 6.2 Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

We have to see if Kshitij has any interest in finishing the polishing of
the Tabbed bar. And what about Szymon Klos, Andreas? Would he be available?

As for the tabbed bar, there's still some improvements that I would like to
suggest in the general layout. Minor things.
And the other day I found a toolbar that was activated in the tabbed bar
that shouldn't be active.
And yes, chart editing is the big block right now.

On Thu, Sep 13, 2018 at 5:43 AM kainz.a  wrote:

> Hi Cor
>
> There are two bugs that should be fixed first.
>
> 1. Keyboard navigation didn't work well
> 2. Chart module don't respect NB. Add an chart to writer and see the issue.
>
> but the main issue is, there is NO developer how will fix bugs when nb is
> out of experimental. This has to be fixed first. If there is one dev how
> care about upcoming bugs than nb can be out of experimental and than I be
> motivated to finish the nb work, cause there is some work missing like nb
> for draw.
>
> If you find a developer, let me know, than it would be a pleasure for me to
> work with her/him. It would be the right time to start now for 6.2
>
> Cheers
> Andreas_k
>
> infinitytec  schrieb am Do., 13. Sep. 2018, 00:23:
>
> > I agree.
> > I have been really enjoying the polish that the tabbed Notebookbar has in
> > 6.1.
> >
> > Dare I even say it may be a good idea to have the tabbed notebookbar as
> > default on Windows builds? It would better integrate with the system,
> like
> > Colibre.
> >
> >
> >
> > *Any sufficiently advanced technology is magic to those who do not
> > understand it.*
> > *-A variation on Clarke's Third Law*
> >
> >  Original message 
> > From: Cor Nouws 
> > Date: 9/12/18 3:57 PM (GMT-06:00)
> > To: "kainz.a" , Mike Saunders <
> > mike.saund...@documentfoundation.org>
> > Cc: design@global.libreoffice.org
> > Subject: Notebookbar in LibreOffice 6.2 Re: [libreoffice-design]
> > Notebookbar   status for LibreOffice 6.1
> >
> > Hi Andreas, all,
> >
> > kainz.a wrote on 30-05-18 10:02:
> >
> > > Groupedbar and Tabbedbar's are ready. I already update the UI so that
> > they
> > > can be "released". Groupedbar and Tabbedbar has a full and a compact
> > view.
> > > ...
> >
> > As far as I've seen, all is still under experimental in master 6.2
> >
> > It would support testing / visibility to already change that now.
> > What do you think?
> >
> > --
> > Cor Nouws
> > GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28  A038 E49D 7365 B134
> 80A6
> > - vrijwilliger https://nl.libreoffice.org
> > - volunteer https://www.libreoffice.org
> > - Member Board The Document Foundation
> > - http://www.nouenoff.nl / https://www.mijnclouoffice.nl
> >
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re[2]: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-Sep-05

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

That's a more constructive opinion. Keeping Firefox personas is dumb.
But then we could discuss create a new section on LO website besides
"Extensions". A section called Personas or Themes for users to add personas
there, and rework the personas back-end to fetch personas from there.
However, some preinstalled personas would be welcome and maybe make it
possible to change personas per module.

I would love to see all of this. Is there anyone interested and with the
skills to do it though?
Go ahead. Otherwise it's simply better to deprecate instead of leaving that
to rot.

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 3:37 PM toki  wrote:

> On 2018-09-12 2:00 p.m., Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>
> > It´s nice to vote to keep something in, but when that something is
> constantly breaking
>
> Why is it constantly breaking?
>
> Part of it is that it relies on a site operated and controlled by The
> Mozilla Foundation, using a product there that that organization has
> depreciated.
>
> Once upon a time, persona could be configured to use files on one's
> system.  More specifically it was either
>
> /opt/libreoffice.version.number/share/gallery/ or
> /home/user-name/.config/libreoffice/4/user/gallery/persona or
> ~/share/gallery/persona/.
>
> Indeed, going into Expert Configuration, it looks like it can still be
> configured from there. However, like everything else in Expert
> Configuration, there is no user documentation. Is the "no" next to
> string, for Persona a boolean value, and if so, why isn't it marked as
> such. Or is it supposed to be the file?
>
> Playing with those values, doesn't enable Persona.  Did I use "bad
> values"? Has the ability to configure it from the expert setting been
> completely removed? Has something else been broken?  I can't tell.
>
> >and there's minimal dev interest to fix or improve it
>
> According to Archive.org, the average lifespan of a webpage is under 18
> months.  As such, relying on a third party website to provide
> functionality is incredibly short-sighted.
>
> >Would any of the people in favor be willing to fix it and improve it?
> It's as simple as that.
>
> Personally, I'd rip out the "Select Firefox Theme", and  at
> ">LibreOffice >Paths" under Type add "Persona", and set path
> "/home/toki/.config/libreoffice/4/user/gallery//persona" as the default.
>
> jonathon
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re[2]: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-Sep-05

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

That's all very nice but... Who fixes it?
It´s nice to vote to keep something in, but when that something is
constantly breaking and there's minimal dev interest to fix or improve it
(and it needs some dire improvements) why keep it then? Would any of the
people in favor be willing to fix it and improve it? It's as simple as that.

On Wed, Sep 12, 2018 at 1:50 PM Halmai, Csongor  wrote:

> Hi All,
>
> from my personal perspective, I don't use personas, I never did. But...
>
> I taught hundreds of people, children and adults as well and I can say
> most people like "funny little harmless" things
> like this.
>
> Just imagine how many users change their desktop background, even if they
> cannot see it the whole day. They simply just
> like personalize it. I think such a little thing that makes LO more
> attractive for the newcomers, should be kept.
>
> If it breaks then it should be fixed.
>
> Csongor
>
>
>
>
> On 2018.09.12. 3:44, infinitytec wrote:
> > I'd have to agree with the idea of removing Personas. Why? Because they
> keep breaking. A couple of prebuilt solid themes would do the trick. Allow
> people to make and tweak themes as well, and even add images. It could,
> perhaps, still be compatible with the Persona system, but rely only on LO
> to function, as I know some issues have been caused on Mozilla's end.
> >
> >
> > Any sufficiently advanced technology is magic to those who do not
> understand it.-A variation on Clarke's Third Law
> >  Original message From: Jean-Francois Nifenecker <
> jean-francois.nifenec...@laposte.net> Date: 9/11/18  12:22 PM
> (GMT-06:00) To: "Роман К." <79045_79...@mail.ru>, Pedro Rosmaninho <
> mota.pr...@gmail.com> Cc: sberg...@redhat.com,
> design@global.libreoffice.org, libreoffice-dev <
> libreoff...@lists.freedesktop.org>, "kainz.a" 
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re[2]: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from
> the
> >design meeting 2018-Sep-05
> > Le 06/09/2018 à 12:32, Роман К. a écrit :
> >> Hello, all. I agree with "killing" Firefox personas. And I like adding
> just 4-5 solid color themes.
> >>
> > I've (manually) added the LibreOffice 4 Light Ambiance persona from
> > Firefox on my trainer PC
> > (
> https://addons.mozilla.org/fr/firefox/addon/libreoffice-4-light-ambiance/?src=search
> ).
> >
> > Adding them is a chore: you've got to use the advanced mode because, as
> > already stated, the UI is not working anymore for a lng time.
> >
> > After having doubts about personas (in fact I was very reluctant to
> > using them), I can tell that it draws attention during training sessions
> ;-)
> >
> > So, I'd strongly vote to keep (and fix) the personas thingy and against
> > having only solid themes.
> >
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-Sep-05

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Agreed, I would kill Firefox personas. It works tremendously slow, and it's
not very useful.
Also most personas do not look good with shipped icons. It would be
preferable to adequately offer a dark theme in every OS (Firefox is going
to support W10 dark theme with version 63).
At most offer 4 or 5 color themes (pastel colors based on modules dominant
colors maybe?).

On Thu, Sep 6, 2018 at 8:52 AM kainz.a  wrote:

> I am not sure how many work firefox personas are. In general l would prefer
> different color schemes instead of personas.
>
> Stephan Bergmann  schrieb am Do., 6. Sep. 2018,
> 08:41:
>
> > On 05/09/18 20:49, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> > >   * Personas not found again
> > > + importance high/major!
> > > + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=118881
> > > +
> >
> http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/About-Persona-lightweight-themes-td4244320.html
> > > + Options:
> > >   + remove this feature completely
> > >   + don't access images via network but ship a few and make the
> > feature an extension
> > >   + revamp the code to adopt the new API
> > >   + ?
> > > => preference to simplification and extension (Heiko)
> >
> > Not sure from the above what part exactly of the feature you want to
> > turn into an extension (the code itself or the persona data), but one
> > note:  In general, be careful when including new kinds of data content
> > in extensions.  That creates new interfaces between LO and extensions,
> > and those interfaces need to be kept compatible, which is a maintenance
> > burden.
> >
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design/UX meeting 2018-Aug-08

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

>   * Styles & Formatting deck is overpopulated with styles
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=69551 (and
> tdf#118664)
>+ bad generic statement, disagree with the idea of "too many" styles
>+ what is a "good number of styles"?, what should to be dropped
> exactly? (Heiko)
>+ we have several options to filter/sort styles (Stuart)
>=> postponed
>

Ok, seriously?
If you open the deck it's because you want several styles. What's the
problem with offering choice in styles?
I don't want to see any Style being dropped. This obssession some people
have with decreasing user choice... Jeez.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Banner for AMA and 6.1 release

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

That looks really nice. :D

On Thu, Aug 2, 2018 at 8:30 AM Heiko Tietze  wrote:

> Sorry, lets try this one
> https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/xqy7L57DRPGpF2S
>
> On 02.08.2018 07:38, K-J LibreOffice wrote:
> > Am 01.08.2018 um 23:53 schrieb Heiko Tietze:
> >> So here is my proposal
> https://nextcloud.documentfoundation.org/s/mHS4w5Z9JtPqnL7 (we are
> running out of time).
> >
> > Seems to be the wrong link (I get tdf-lo61icons.odt).
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Guideline for floating widgets

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Thanks for the clarification.
Then I think your guidelines are excellent.

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 10:44 AM Heiko Tietze  wrote:

> Floatiness of the sidebar is an evergreen and has been discussed several
> times in the meeting. The sidebar has its own HIG.
>
> On 05.06.2018 11:38, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> > I think the reasoning is well thought and laid out by Heiko. the
> resizability doesn't seem to be a big problem for me. Except if the
> floating widget looks extremely small in HiDpi displays? (can't test)
> >
> > Just one question though: where does the floating Sidebar fit into this?
> I tried to resize other floating widgets and couldn't, but I can resize the
> floating Sidebar. And I could see why resizing it could be useful (as
> opposed to the other floating widgets).
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Guideline for floating widgets

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I think the reasoning is well thought and laid out by Heiko. the
resizability doesn't seem to be a big problem for me. Except if the
floating widget looks extremely small in HiDpi displays? (can't test)

Just one question though: where does the floating Sidebar fit into this? I
tried to resize other floating widgets and couldn't, but I can resize the
floating Sidebar. And I could see why resizing it could be useful (as
opposed to the other floating widgets).

On Tue, Jun 5, 2018 at 10:28 AM Heiko Tietze  wrote:

> The floating widget is like a toolwindow, similar to compose a message.
> And I'm very happy that an accidental press of escape doesn't close this
> dialog (using Thunderbird as well). Resizability is permitted for dialogs
> in LibreOffice, though I dont find the guideline anymore (wait, it was a
> discussion on the mailing list [1]), in order to keep the content at place.
>
> [1]
> http://document-foundation-mail-archive.969070.n3.nabble.com/Resizability-of-the-dialogs-tc4131982.html
> maybe other messages too
>
> On 05.06.2018 10:58, Alex ARNAUD wrote:
> > First of all, thanks for sharing the guidelines Heiko.
> >
> > I'm pretty agree about all except for the usage of escape. When I teach
> computer, I always explain that escape is used inside the window to close
> floating window, menu and dialog. For example, on Thunderbird, escape could
> close a message window or on LibreOffice 6.0 when I open the save dialog, I
> could close it with escape.
> >
> > IMO, we should let floating windows resizable. I don't understand what
> is the problem.
> >
> > Best regards,
> > Alex.
> >
> > Le 05/06/2018 à 09:14, Heiko Tietze a écrit :
> >> Based on https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239 I
> drafted a guideline for floating widgets at
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Selection#Appearance. Your
> review and opinion is welcome.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Heiko
> >>
> >>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-May-30

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

It's a pity I wasn't present to make my case. :(

On Thu, May 31, 2018 at 10:08 AM Heiko Tietze 
wrote:

> On 31.05.2018 10:58, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> >   * Gridlines on zoom
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348
> >+ different color (dark grey) (Pedro)
> >  + available as option (see c15) (Regina)
> >+ adjust dot's distance depending on zoom factor (Heiko)
> >+ dots should remain a reasonable size and shift in conjunction
> with zoom (Stuart)
> >=> change it similar to dashed line of text boxes; zoom in goes
> with smaller distance and larger dots
> >
> > ​Since I was traveling home and couldn't join:
> >
> > As Regina said, it is possible to change color now (and I changed the
> color in my instalation) however LO needs sane defaults that make it usable
> by most people.
> > It's a bit silly to keep a default color for the dots with terrible
> contrast and visibility from the time of Open Office...
> > The grid is turned off by default already. Anyone that turns it on, is
> because it needs to use it as an auxiliary tool. If it's barely visible,
> because it is Light Gray on White Background then it becomes nearly useless.
> > Also the steps to change its color require the user to really dig deep
> into the options menu. Should we expect that from a novice user or even an
> intermediate user?
>
> You are the only advocate of a darker color and we agreed in the meeting
> to keep the light grey. It works perfectly at 100% and just needs
> adjustment for other zoom levels.
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018-May-30

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

  * Gridlines on zoom
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348
>+ different color (dark grey) (Pedro)
>  + available as option (see c15) (Regina)
>+ adjust dot's distance depending on zoom factor (Heiko)
>+ dots should remain a reasonable size and shift in conjunction with
> zoom (Stuart)
>=> change it similar to dashed line of text boxes; zoom in goes with
> smaller distance and larger dots
>

​Since I was traveling home and couldn't join:

As Regina said, it is possible to change color now (and I changed the color
in my instalation) however LO needs sane defaults that make it usable by
most people.
It's a bit silly to keep a default color for the dots with terrible
contrast and visibility from the time of Open Office...
The grid is turned off by default already. Anyone that turns it on, is
because it needs to use it as an auxiliary tool. If it's barely visible,
because it is Light Gray on White Background then it becomes nearly
useless.
Also the steps to change its color require the user to really dig deep into
the options menu. Should we expect that from a novice user or even an
intermediate user?

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the weekly meeting 2018-May-30

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

 Aaaaw,
I'm going to be on a train trip today (and mobile network reception will be
crap)!

I won't be able to defend my stance about changing the color of the grid in
Impress. :(


On Tue, May 29, 2018 at 4:27 PM Heiko Tietze  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> some topics for tomorrow, more are welcome (just add to the pad):
>
>
> Tickets
>
>  * Print preview has disabled controls when document is write protected
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=92445
>+ NAB, since scaling is not a just visual function (Heiko)
>
>  * Guideline for floating widgets
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=87239
>  + remain active, by default
>  + close per x but not escape
>  + non-resizable
>  + stay on top
>  + close expanded but not floating controls on escape or when focus is
> lost
>  + show an indicator for those controls that can be floating (like
> shapes)
>and hide that for fix dropdowns (e.g. character spacing next to
> font color)
>  + hide toolbar functions on floating controls
>  + show function name as caption when floating
>  + prevent detaching for non-floating controls (insert table)
>  + ...
>
>  *  Selection of adjacent columns in Calc
> + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=94420
> + no idea about selection of zeros can work (Heiko)
>
>  * Text shifted outside cell by indents
> + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=37873
> + WF (Heiko)
>
>  * Gridlines on zoom
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117348
>+ different color (dark grey) (Pedro)
>+ adjust dot's distance depending on zoom factor (Heiko)
>
>
> Full pad is here https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/design
>
> Hope to see you at 6pm UTC (20:00 CEST) on Jitsi
> https://meet.jit.si/LibreOfficeDesign
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Andreas, tomorrow and Friday I'll have some time so I'll provide you with
mockups to finish the really necessary work that we can do.

Since this is an UI issue, I believe that it can still be pushed on time
for 6.1, considering that feature freeze shouldn't affect some UI work,
correct?
As for the lack of devs: if we push this and users start issuing bug
reports, dev interest will also appear.

The deactivation of the toolbars should be done by someone with knowledge
to do that. Szymon Klos mentioned that he tried to do it but he didn't
manage to do it (if he's here maybe he can clear this, I'm recalling this
from memory so I might be saying something wrong).
Szymon Klos said in the Notebookbar Telegram channel that he was hoping
Ksithij Pathania would fix major issues. But I don't want to be
presumptuous to assume who will/should fix what.

On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 11:34 AM kainz.a  wrote:

> Nr. 1 and 2 can I fix as fare as I know isn't it. So can you make a mockup
> Pedro and let's fix it.
>
> Excluding that the issue is that there is no dev available to do
> bugfixing. Hope the GSOC student can fix something but since now the output
> isn't high.
>
> Another question is, should we announce an feature where no dev is working
> on it?
>
> Cheers
> Andreas
>
> 2018-05-30 12:15 GMT+02:00 Pedro Rosmaninho :
>
>> There's very few blocker bugs frankly.
>> The main ones are:
>> 1 - Media (Audio and Video) toolbar still doesn't have a Tabbedbar and
>> Groupedbar eequivalent,
>> 2 - Chart editing toolbar also doesn't have a Tabbedbar and Groupedbar
>> equivalent (the commands that can be added to the Object editing
>> Tabbedbar/Groupedbar are mentioned here
>> <https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117690>)
>> 3 - After finishing those two issues, toolbars should be deactivated for
>> the Notebookbar so that they don't open below the Notebookbar UI -
>> inconsistent behaviour).
>>
>> Excluding that it's just minor issues that can quickly be solved.
>>
>>
>> On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 9:02 AM kainz.a  wrote:
>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Groupedbar and Tabbedbar's are ready. I already update the UI so that
>>> they
>>> can be "released". Groupedbar and Tabbedbar has a full and a compact
>>> view.
>>>
>>> Groupedbar and Tabbedbar's were tested with Colibre icon theme. All
>>> actions
>>> has an Icon, Icon + Label or Label only.
>>>
>>> For switch between different User Interfaces there is a Menu button on
>>> the
>>> top right. Tabbedbar has in addition on the top left an show menubar
>>> icon.
>>>
>>> Contextual Groups (called Heikobar) and Contextual Single didn't get an
>>> update.
>>> - Contextual Single should be removed from the build cause it's only an
>>> design study where many stuff is missing.
>>> - Contextual Groups need an update or should be turned off until it will
>>> be
>>> updated, cause if the menubar is turned off you can't switch the UI (you
>>> have to delate your profile or whatever). The problem is that it's the
>>> first in the list.
>>>
>>> Design wise Notebookbar waiting for testers. The problem is, that there
>>> are
>>> open bugs so the developers can't move the feature out of experimental.
>>>
>>> In a movie I would show the different idea behind tabbedbar (where your
>>> content is grouped in tabbs) and groupedbars (where all "main" content is
>>> always available and the rest in the drop dowm group label.
>>>
>>> User feedback is really needed!
>>>
>>> Cheers
>>> Andreas_K
>>>
>>> 2018-05-30 9:41 GMT+02:00 Mike Saunders <
>>> mike.saund...@documentfoundation.org>:
>>>
>>> > Hello!
>>> >
>>> > So the release of LibreOffice 6.1 is still a couple of months away, but
>>> > we in the marketing community are starting to plan the release
>>> > announcement, videos and other materials.
>>> >
>>> > How is the Notebookbar looking? I assume it'll still be experimental in
>>> > 6.1? I recall someone (Andreas?) saying that one of the Notebookbar
>>> > variants is getting close to completion, however, so we could mention
>>> > that in the press release / video.
>>> >
>>> > Indeed, I could make a separate video showing how to try it. The two
>>> > things to bear in mind are:
>>> >
>>> > 1) It must be easy to revert to the "normal" layout
>>> > 2) If 

Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar status for LibreOffice 6.1

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

There's very few blocker bugs frankly.
The main ones are:
1 - Media (Audio and Video) toolbar still doesn't have a Tabbedbar and
Groupedbar eequivalent,
2 - Chart editing toolbar also doesn't have a Tabbedbar and Groupedbar
equivalent (the commands that can be added to the Object editing
Tabbedbar/Groupedbar are mentioned here
)
3 - After finishing those two issues, toolbars should be deactivated for
the Notebookbar so that they don't open below the Notebookbar UI -
inconsistent behaviour).

Excluding that it's just minor issues that can quickly be solved.


On Wed, May 30, 2018 at 9:02 AM kainz.a  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Groupedbar and Tabbedbar's are ready. I already update the UI so that they
> can be "released". Groupedbar and Tabbedbar has a full and a compact view.
>
> Groupedbar and Tabbedbar's were tested with Colibre icon theme. All actions
> has an Icon, Icon + Label or Label only.
>
> For switch between different User Interfaces there is a Menu button on the
> top right. Tabbedbar has in addition on the top left an show menubar icon.
>
> Contextual Groups (called Heikobar) and Contextual Single didn't get an
> update.
> - Contextual Single should be removed from the build cause it's only an
> design study where many stuff is missing.
> - Contextual Groups need an update or should be turned off until it will be
> updated, cause if the menubar is turned off you can't switch the UI (you
> have to delate your profile or whatever). The problem is that it's the
> first in the list.
>
> Design wise Notebookbar waiting for testers. The problem is, that there are
> open bugs so the developers can't move the feature out of experimental.
>
> In a movie I would show the different idea behind tabbedbar (where your
> content is grouped in tabbs) and groupedbars (where all "main" content is
> always available and the rest in the drop dowm group label.
>
> User feedback is really needed!
>
> Cheers
> Andreas_K
>
> 2018-05-30 9:41 GMT+02:00 Mike Saunders <
> mike.saund...@documentfoundation.org>:
>
> > Hello!
> >
> > So the release of LibreOffice 6.1 is still a couple of months away, but
> > we in the marketing community are starting to plan the release
> > announcement, videos and other materials.
> >
> > How is the Notebookbar looking? I assume it'll still be experimental in
> > 6.1? I recall someone (Andreas?) saying that one of the Notebookbar
> > variants is getting close to completion, however, so we could mention
> > that in the press release / video.
> >
> > Indeed, I could make a separate video showing how to try it. The two
> > things to bear in mind are:
> >
> > 1) It must be easy to revert to the "normal" layout
> > 2) If there are many different Notebookbar variants in the experimental
> > mode, we need to be careful that users don't accidentally enable the
> > wrong one, and complain...
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Mike
> >
> > --
> > Mike Saunders, Marketing & PR
> > The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
> >
> > --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for design meeting 2018-May-09

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I would also add to the discussion what are the blocker bugs that are
preventing removing the Notebookbar from being an experimental feature so
that we can do a final push to have it as a full fledged feature.

On Tue, May 8, 2018 at 10:50 AM Heiko Tietze  wrote:

> Hello all,
>
> here is the agenda for tomorrow
>
> General
>
>  * ToDo for 6.1? (feature freeze May/21)
>+ Icons (see below)
>+ Draw styles (discussion below)
>+ Gradients (in progress)
>
> Tickets
>
>  * Icon themes
>+ https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/2596
>+ Keep/Remove icon themes in core
>  + Industrial
>+ remove, README: copyright Novell, "Update 2015-10-05: The
> industrial icon theme is now obsolete",
>  no SVG, no large icons (Heiko)
>  + Tango
>+ keep in core (Heiko)
>  + Tango_testing
>+ removal done in https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52790/
>  + Galaxy
>+ removed (temporarily) with
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/53092/
>+ extension submitted at
> https://extensions.libreoffice.org/extensions/galaxy-icon-theme
>+ keep/re-add it as a complete variant (Heiko)
>  + Hicontrast
>+ has been removed with https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/53053/
> in favor of Sifr
>  + Crystal
>+ remove; theme is not enabled (Heiko)
>  + Oxygen
>+ remove; disabled and superseded by Karasa Jaga
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/53908/ (Heiko)
>+ Add new icon themes to core
>  + Colibre
>  + Karasa Jaga
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117342
>+ Patch https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/53908/
>+ Fallback strategies
>  + Default/Windows, replace Galaxy by Colibre
>+ done
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116696
>+ Patch at https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/53092
>  + XFCE, none, unknown, TDE
>+ Rene recommended on IRC to not fall back to Colibre on Linux
>  + Sifr as replacement for Hicontrast
>+ done
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=75398
>+ patch: https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/53053/
>+ extension:
> https://extensions.libreoffice.org/extensions/high-contrast-icon-theme
>  + Sifr as default on macOS
>+ rejected
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=42082#c25
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116693
>  + Elementary as default on Gnome
>+ done
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116695
>+ https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52880/
>+ Extensions needed
>  + Hicontrast, Galaxy
>
>  * Draw Styles
>https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117455
>
>  * Shapes deck fill the whole sidebar / make it non-experimental
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117186
>
>  * In Impress UI scroll bars are active beyond the extent of the slide
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117009
>
>  * Opening The Same Document Twice As Read Only With Command Line Switch
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116827
>+ WF- niche request, limited use-case, workaround existing (Heiko)
>+ views in terms of copies (available) or as (synchronized) instances
> (not avail)
>
>  * List numbering depends on how it's being selected
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117233
>+ no idea how to improve (Heiko)
>
> Backlog
>
>  * Revamp the 'Events' tab of the Customize dialog
>+ Heiko's and Yousuf's designs for GSoC:
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1IPXkYMmyXQzoVUdMpnBeoQdf-LNp5_oNaqfW6OFhxqA/edit?usp=sharing
>+ Maybe a combination of two designs? (Muhammet)
>  + Start with Variant 2 for consistency
>+ agreed (Heiko)
>  + Get rid of the Function dropdown on the left, and the Function
> button on the right
>+ Remove exists; and save/export etc. are nice-to-haves for the
> future
>  + Take the tree structure from Variant 1, and apply to the left box
>+ yes, makes sense (Heiko)
>  + It will be consistent with the other tabs visually and behaviorally
>+ and the horizontal alignment benefits
>
>
> Full pad is here https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/design
>
> Hope to see you at 7pm UTC (20:00 CET) on Jitsi
> https://meet.jit.si/LibreOfficeDesign
>
> Cheers,
> Heiko
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

It's confusing for new users that don't understand the concept of file
extensions.

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 2:37 PM, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos <
f...@libreoffice.org> wrote:

> 2018-04-25 5:10 GMT-05:00 Regina Henschel :
> > Please do not use OOXML for the Microsoft Versions of the format. That
> would
> > be confusing. OOXML should only be used for strict, ISO-standardized
> Office
> > Open XML.
>
> How exactly is this confusing? We already denote the ISO-standardized
> version of OOXML with the “Strict” moniker, don’t we?
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I would keep the reference to 2007-2016. Many people do not look to the
file extension and instead to the office version number.

On Wed, Apr 25, 2018 at 9:35 AM, Heiko Tietze 
wrote:

> We have two late topics:
>
>  * Update Office version in file format confirmation dialog to not refer
> to Office 2013
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=108894
>+ old: “Microsoft Word 2007-2013 XML”
>+ new: "Microsoft Excel OOXML"
>  + https://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=
> 195e12bdc516c9272b7ae353ad6279e457215911
>+ to discuss: "Microsoft Word 2007-2016 OOXML"
>
>  * Double-click does not expand/collaps the options in the navigator (
> other than the headings )
>   + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117063
>
> Hasta luego
>
> On 24.04.2018 13:43, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> > Hello world,
> >
> > here is the agenda for the weekly meeting tomorrow:
> >
> >  * UI for Nested styles
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115311
> >+ mockup attached, comments welcome
> >
> >  * Bring back Format > Columns in Writer
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115344
> >+ https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/53217/
> >
> >  * In Impress UI scroll bars are active beyond the extent of the slide
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117009
> >
> >  * Shapes deck fill the whole sidebar / make it non-experimental
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117186
> >
> >  * Opening The Same Document Twice As Read Only With Command Line Switch
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116827
> >+ WF- niche request, limited use-case, workaround existing (Heiko)
> >
> >
> >  * Icon themes
> >+ https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/2596
> >+ tbd: the future of Tango, Tango_testing, Industrial, Galaxy, and
> Crystal
> >  + please file tickets to remove these themes (or rather make it an
> extension)
> >+ Update the fallback strategy and replace Galaxy by Colibre
> >  + https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116696
> >  + Patch at https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/53092
> >
> > Full pad is here https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/design
> >
> > Hope to see you tomorrow 6pm UTC (20:00 CEST) on Jitsi
> > https://meet.jit.si/LibreOfficeDesign
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Heiko
> >
> >
> >
>
> --
> Dr. Heiko Tietze
> UX designer
> Tel. +49 (0)179/1268509
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Yes, maybe. I replied in a hot-headed way. Fortunately Alex was a lot more
reasonable than me.

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 11:43 PM, Franklin Weng <frank...@libreoffice.org>
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> On 2018年4月25日 上午12:15:52 [台北], Pedro Rosmaninho <mota.pr...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >Sorry, but why should they expect to keep the theme they know?
> >Sometimes
> >defaults change, and if people don't want their defaults to change they
> >can
> >keep on LTS versions.
> >If they're updating from an old version of software to a new one it's
> >likely that there will be changes, including in UI. If they don't read
> >release notes why are they even installing a new version of LO even?
>
> I'm not saying defaults shouldn't be changed, but I'm not going to say the
> above is the correct expectation to end users.  It's kind of RTFM thoughts
> which keeps users away from the community.
>
> --
> Franklin Weng, Member, Board of Director & Certification Commitee
> The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE
> Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts
> Legal details: https://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Ah, I understood. That's a very strong reason, that's for sure.
It's hard to learn new icons when you are visually-impaired. Do you use
Microsoft Office as well by any chance? Colibre has some similarities with
the icon theme from Microsof office (I believe it follows some of the
Windows design guidelines) so if you are familiar with those icons you will
probably manage to adapt reasonably well.

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 5:48 PM, Alex ARNAUD <alexarn...@hypra.fr> wrote:

> Le 24/04/2018 à 18:15, Pedro Rosmaninho a écrit :
>
>> Sorry, but why should they expect to keep the theme they know? Sometimes
>> defaults change, and if people don't want their defaults to change they
>> can
>> keep on LTS versions.
>> If they're updating from an old version of software to a new one it's
>> likely that there will be changes, including in UI. If they don't read
>> release notes why are they even installing a new version of LO even? If
>> the
>> information is provided that there's a new look for Libre Office I find it
>> very doubtful people will fill bugs because they don't find Tango.
>> It's a given that the default has changed.
>>
>
> Right but icons are the way to represent features so if you're accustom
> with icons, you could expect to continue to use it.
> I'm visual-impaired, if someone changes icons on the screen, I'll complain
> or try to get the old one.
> But :), I'm aware that I'm a little bit conservative because most users I
> know doesn't want to spend time to learn again a software or change their
> habits.
>
> @Heiko: What is the reason to drop Tango? Disk space?
>
> Best regards,
> Alex.
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018-Apr-25

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Sorry, but why should they expect to keep the theme they know? Sometimes
defaults change, and if people don't want their defaults to change they can
keep on LTS versions.
If they're updating from an old version of software to a new one it's
likely that there will be changes, including in UI. If they don't read
release notes why are they even installing a new version of LO even? If the
information is provided that there's a new look for Libre Office I find it
very doubtful people will fill bugs because they don't find Tango.
It's a given that the default has changed.

On Tue, Apr 24, 2018 at 4:40 PM, Alex ARNAUD  wrote:

> Le 24/04/2018 à 13:43, Heiko Tietze a écrit :
>
>> + tbd: the future of Tango, Tango_testing, Industrial, Galaxy, and
>> Crystal
>>   + please file tickets to remove these themes (or rather make it an
>> extension)
>>
>
> Hello Heiko :),
>
> On my LibreOffice 4.2, Tango is the current default icon theme so people
> that upgrade from old version could expect to keep the theme they know. I
> don't think making extension it's a simple way to add theme because if
> Tango is shipped insides a release and not inside another, the reactions
> could be:
> - Ah, LibreOffice Has dropped those themes
> - Ah, there is a bug to fill because I no longer find Tango
>
> I don't see any mental way to think theme has been moved to extension
> except for those that read release notes.
>
> Best regards,
> Alex.
>
>
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[libreoffice-design] Chart Editing and Formatting behaviour in Calc and Impress UIs.

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I just finished analysing the Editing and Formatting Toolbars behavior in
the available UIs in Calc and Impress. I annotated bugs, inconsistencies in
behavior, and improvement suggestions.

Sorry for not filling bug reports yet but I'm a bit tired already this was
a lot of stuff and I think it's better to have everything together in one
file before filling separate bug reports.

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Re: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

It seems that mostly everyone likes the Groupedbar and the Tabbed bar.
However, the Contextual Groups are filled with issues, under-developed and
don't seem to add much. Should it be kept and improved upon or discarded?

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 11:58 PM, infinitytec <infinity...@hughes.net>
wrote:

> I agree; fix the notebookbar's bugs and make it easy access in 6.1. The
> removal of the older toolbars can be later.
>
> It could also be a smoother transition for some users.
>
> (And help find bugs that would otherwise be forced on everyone)
>
>
>
> *Any sufficiently advanced technology is magic to those who do not
> understand it.*
> *-A variation on Clarke's Third Law*
>
> ---- Original message 
> From: Pedro Rosmaninho <mota.pr...@gmail.com>
> Date: 3/29/18 4:55 PM (GMT-06:00)
> To: V Stuart Foote <vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu>
> Cc: design@global.libreoffice.org
> Subject: Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the design meeting
> 2018/Mar/28
>
> It would be awesome to see the Notebookbar come out of experimental support
> for 6.1. IMO, that should be a priority.
> If supporting these multiple Notebookbar options is not a blocker to that,
> then I guess it's not bad to maintain them.
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 7:49 PM, V Stuart Foote <vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu>
> wrote:
>
> > htietze wrote
> > > ...
> > >
> > > But it's up to the community, which is first the design team. So more
> > > opinions please.
> >
> > Choosing a default Notebookbar mode is trivial--and I do not see too much
> > of
> > a support issue across the modes--it is all .UI assemblage of .uno
> > commands.
> > But there are holes and lingering issues to finishing up Notebookbar for
> > general use.
> >
> > A major issue preventing Notebookbar from coming out of Experimental mode
> > is
> > the complete and continuing  lack of a11y Accessible Event focus for all
> > elements in the Notebookbar UI--in any mode-- that is bug 107316.
> Listbox ,
> > dialogs  launched from the Notebookbar emit their event focus and are
> > picked
> > up--but all controls in the .UI scheme are dead to a11y.
> >
> > But also, what to do for the missing Tools -> Autocorrect controls.
> >
> > Or bug 107343 for a shortcut for toggling of  the legacy "Menubar".
> > Presently there is no shortcut implemented (F10 being the preferred) and
> > the
> > toggle from GUI  gets stuck. As a result UI can end up trapped in a
> > Notebookbar mode unable to switch modes or the access the Menubar: View
> ->
> > Toolbar Layout to change mode.  End up  trapped (and have to clear
> profile
> > to recover).
> >
> > Aside from those issues, as to choosing a default in Writer I actually
> like
> > the Compact Tabbed mode--when legacy Menubar is not trapped in the view
> > "False" state--as this mode  gives the simplicity of GUI we wanted--while
> > toggle exposing the legacy Menubar has all needed functions. Contextual
> > Single mode is also appealing--but likewise troublesome if you loose the
> > legacy Menubar. But those are both only in Writer.
> >
> > Andreas' work on the Groupedbar for Writer and the other modules is also
> > good because of its extent, but also its distance from MS work on the
> > Ribbon
> > interface.
> >
> > But again I don't think it makes too much difference--just pick a
> "default"
> > for when Notebookbar is enabled. As Andreas notes:
> >
> > > In the end the main question is how we guarantee that new features get
> > > implemented in the different implementations.
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Sent from: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Design-f1935996.html
> >
> > --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

It would be awesome to see the Notebookbar come out of experimental support
for 6.1. IMO, that should be a priority.
If supporting these multiple Notebookbar options is not a blocker to that,
then I guess it's not bad to maintain them.

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 7:49 PM, V Stuart Foote 
wrote:

> htietze wrote
> > ...
> >
> > But it's up to the community, which is first the design team. So more
> > opinions please.
>
> Choosing a default Notebookbar mode is trivial--and I do not see too much
> of
> a support issue across the modes--it is all .UI assemblage of .uno
> commands.
> But there are holes and lingering issues to finishing up Notebookbar for
> general use.
>
> A major issue preventing Notebookbar from coming out of Experimental mode
> is
> the complete and continuing  lack of a11y Accessible Event focus for all
> elements in the Notebookbar UI--in any mode-- that is bug 107316. Listbox ,
> dialogs  launched from the Notebookbar emit their event focus and are
> picked
> up--but all controls in the .UI scheme are dead to a11y.
>
> But also, what to do for the missing Tools -> Autocorrect controls.
>
> Or bug 107343 for a shortcut for toggling of  the legacy "Menubar".
> Presently there is no shortcut implemented (F10 being the preferred) and
> the
> toggle from GUI  gets stuck. As a result UI can end up trapped in a
> Notebookbar mode unable to switch modes or the access the Menubar: View ->
> Toolbar Layout to change mode.  End up  trapped (and have to clear profile
> to recover).
>
> Aside from those issues, as to choosing a default in Writer I actually like
> the Compact Tabbed mode--when legacy Menubar is not trapped in the view
> "False" state--as this mode  gives the simplicity of GUI we wanted--while
> toggle exposing the legacy Menubar has all needed functions. Contextual
> Single mode is also appealing--but likewise troublesome if you loose the
> legacy Menubar. But those are both only in Writer.
>
> Andreas' work on the Groupedbar for Writer and the other modules is also
> good because of its extent, but also its distance from MS work on the
> Ribbon
> interface.
>
> But again I don't think it makes too much difference--just pick a "default"
> for when Notebookbar is enabled. As Andreas notes:
>
> > In the end the main question is how we guarantee that new features get
> > implemented in the different implementations.
>
>
>
>
>
> --
> Sent from: http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Design-f1935996.html
>
> --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

To me it unites the best of the classic toolbars (access to drop down
menus) and the best of the Ribbon UI.

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 5:23 PM, Heiko Tietze <tietze.he...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 29.03.2018 18:02, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> > IMO, the Groupedbar should be the chosen one.
> > Here are the reasons why I think it is the most suited one:
> > 1 - *It has a unique look among Office suites
> > 2 - It's distinctive from the Ribbon UI
>
> That was my question. Personally I wouldn't go with the Groupedbar because
> it has no advantage over classic toolbars, there is a lot of unclear
> movement, and I doubt that Benjamin find his way easily through the
> options. Not saying it's bad design.
>
> And your reasons are different from the originally discussed idea to make
> it easy to switch from other programs: "It's encouraged to have
> Notebookbars that simulate alternative programs but "crazy" ideas with
> completely new UI approaches are also welcome."
>
> But it's up to the community, which is first the design team. So more
> opinions please.
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I gave it a bit of thought but I didn't write down all possible reasons why
it would be a good idea.
Right now there are 4 or 5 variants, and all of them have issues. Instead
of packing more and more variants, just create a section in the extension
website and just include two Notebookbars by default and focus work of
everyone in polishing those (and hence Bugzilla reports would be focused in
just those two variants).

As Jan said, this decreases the complexity of usability checks, and the
team doesn't have to consider 5 or 6 variants when enacting changes.
Also by focusing on just two variants, we can "market" those as being the
Libre Office look.


IMO, LO should just include one of the Notebookbar variants (with a Full
and Compact option) by default and the other should be moved to the
extensions website.

IMO, the Groupedbar should be the chosen one.
Here are the reasons why I think it is the most suited one:
1 - *It has a unique look among Office suites, thus it allows Libre Office
to adopt a distinctive look among its competitors.*
2 - It's distinctive from the Ribbon UI, and it's not a traditional toolbar,
3 - *It allows users to still access drop down menus.* This is one of the
main issues that people point out when using the Ribbon UI in MSO. It's
also a downside of the Tabbed Bar,
4 - In a time where every Office suite follow the Ribbon UI, the Groupedbar
still is familiar enough for users that grew up using it but retains the
advantages of the toolbar (easy access to drop-down menus).
5 - It already got some positive spin in sites like OMG Ubuntu.
6 - It looks functional in the 3 modules (in the 6.1 dev).
I think Andreas K. struck gold when creating it.

I would rebrand it to something more unique about Libre Office (if Andreas
agrees). Why not call it Colibre Bar? To keep with the name of the new icon
set? That way we would have an entire Colibre UI (notebookbar+icon set) and
Marketing could run with it when releasing the 6.1 version ("try the
all-new Colibre UI in LO 6.1!").

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 4:30 PM, jan <dittrich.c@gmail.com> wrote:

> I agree – while it may be not possible to guarantee that a "official"
> variant will be fixed in time, it would make sense to have one version
> which is the "standard" so that efforts can be focused.
>
> – It might be hard to consider all variants all the time when doing
> changes, same would go for usability tests.
> – And if the notbookbar becomes standard or at least LO gets a "switch
> to notebookbar" button, there needs to be a version that appears.
> Otherwise we let the user make a decision hard to take (what does each
> option do?). We are in a better position to at least determine what is
> most useful most of the time.
>
> Jan
>
> Am 29.03.2018 um 15:36 schrieb Pedro Rosmaninho:
> > Considering that the Notebookbar is maturing and reaching a maturity
> point
> > where it is stable, it would be interesting if there was an official UX
> > team variant developed and improved upon by everyone here. It wouldn't
> have
> > to be the default UI, but something that the UX team would answer to bugs
> > and fix them.
> >
> > The variants included by default with LO should be supported and fixed by
> > the UI team. Otherwise there'll be a bunch of bug reports about something
> > that is not officially supported.
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Heiko Tietze <tietze.he...@gmail.com>
> > wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> On 29.03.2018 15:04, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> >>> Can I just ask one small thing that I have doubts on?
> >>> Is there no "official" UI design team Notebookbar option?
> >>
> >> The contextual group variant has a foundation [1] but there is nothing
> >> specific for the other variants, which is bad for transparency and
> >> testability. And I have no other idea how to tackle the "official"
> aspect.
> >>
> >> [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/ToolBar
> >>
> >>
> >> (Removed project from x-post)
> >>
> >>
> >
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Plus to keep up with the new Colibre icon set (what a great idea to use a
colibri as the symbol) it would be really cool to have a Colibre
Notebookbar to go with it in 6.1.


On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:36 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho <mota.pr...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Considering that the Notebookbar is maturing and reaching a maturity point
> where it is stable, it would be interesting if there was an official UX
> team variant developed and improved upon by everyone here. It wouldn't have
> to be the default UI, but something that the UX team would answer to bugs
> and fix them.
>
> The variants included by default with LO should be supported and fixed by
> the UI team. Otherwise there'll be a bunch of bug reports about something
> that is not officially supported.
>
> On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Heiko Tietze <tietze.he...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>>
>> On 29.03.2018 15:04, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>> > Can I just ask one small thing that I have doubts on?
>> > Is there no "official" UI design team Notebookbar option?
>>
>> The contextual group variant has a foundation [1] but there is nothing
>> specific for the other variants, which is bad for transparency and
>> testability. And I have no other idea how to tackle the "official" aspect.
>>
>> [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/ToolBar
>>
>>
>> (Removed project from x-post)
>>
>>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Considering that the Notebookbar is maturing and reaching a maturity point
where it is stable, it would be interesting if there was an official UX
team variant developed and improved upon by everyone here. It wouldn't have
to be the default UI, but something that the UX team would answer to bugs
and fix them.

The variants included by default with LO should be supported and fixed by
the UI team. Otherwise there'll be a bunch of bug reports about something
that is not officially supported.

On Thu, Mar 29, 2018 at 2:27 PM, Heiko Tietze <tietze.he...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
> On 29.03.2018 15:04, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> > Can I just ask one small thing that I have doubts on?
> > Is there no "official" UI design team Notebookbar option?
>
> The contextual group variant has a foundation [1] but there is nothing
> specific for the other variants, which is bad for transparency and
> testability. And I have no other idea how to tackle the "official" aspect.
>
> [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/ToolBar
>
>
> (Removed project from x-post)
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes from the design meeting 2018/Mar/28

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Can I just ask one small thing that I have doubts on?
Is there no "official" UI design team Notebookbar option?

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 8:06 PM, Heiko Tietze 
wrote:

> Present: Thomas, Heiko
>
>  * Colibre
>+ controversially discussed on the patch; Colibre on Windows merged
>+ please file tickets to make Elementary the default for Gnome and Sifr
> on macOS
>+ tbd: the future of Tango, Tango_testing, Industrial, Galaxy, and
> Crystal
>+ please file tickets to remove these themes (or rather make it an
> extension)
>=> to be continued
>
>  * Combined Toolbar/Notebookbar
>+ http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Merged-Toolbar-Notebookbar-menu-
> tt4236326.html
>+ UI Layout (Pedro)
>  + Standard, Minimal, Sidebar
>  - separator -
>  + Contextual groups, Contextual Minimal, Tabbed, Grouped bar
> Full/Minimal
>(maybe come up with a new name instead of Groupedbar?
>=> User Interface: Standard Toolbar, Single Toolbar, Sidebar, [Sep]
>   Contextual Groups, Contextual Single, Tabbed Compact, Groupedbar,
> Groupedbar Compact
>
>  * Option AutoSpellCheck colour should apply to spelling dialog too
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116566
>+ go with the suggestion (Heiko)
>=> no other opinions, so agreed with the change:
>   background and foreground color should respect user settings
>
>  * Fill Cells commands in button menu too short
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115485
>+ "Move" up/down/left/right (boring repetition though)
>+ the function is "Fill" (up/down...)
>+ also avail per Sheet > Fill Cells > Up/Down... (acceptable here)
>=> Better we remove the fill commands from the toolbar menu (Thomas,
> Heiko)
>
>  * Checkbox for zero values to be handled like missing values in plot
> options
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115513
>+ Extra option or respect Tools > Options > Calc > View
>=> postponed
>
>  * Shortcut to open/close the side bar
>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=85850
>+ ctrl+F5?
>+ apparently there is no function to programmatically expand the sidebar
>=> postponed
>
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Merged Toolbar/Notebookbar menu

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

 UI Layout
  Standard
  Single
  Sidebar
  - separator -
  Contextual groups
  Contextual single
  Tabbed

I like this solution. Maybe instead of calling it Single we could call it
something else: I suggest Minimal or Simple.
The rest of the names look good. How about the Groupedbar? Will it be
called Grouped?

On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 11:26 PM, infinitytec 
wrote:

> What if all notebookbar options were separated into individual widgets
> that could be rearranged into whatever order that the user wanted? The
> standard toolbar does kind of have that all ready. The notebookbar could
> then be applied as the main tool section, additional toolbars, and the
> sidebar, configured by presets and user preference.
>
> Any sufficiently advanced technology is magic to those who do not
> understand it.-A variation on Clarke's Third Law
>  Original message From: "kainz.a" 
> Date: 3/25/18  3:08 PM  (GMT-06:00) To: Heiko Tietze <
> tietze.he...@gmail.com> Cc: LibO Design ,
> Kshitij Pathania  Subject: Re:
> [libreoffice-design] Merged Toolbar/Notebookbar menu
> What's the difference between toolbars, sidebar and notebookbars. They are
> different from a dev point of view but from a user perspective they
> shouldn't be separate.
>
> So from my point of view no prefix
>
> but as you ordinary don't want to switch the UI often (you have one
> work-flow) I'm for a section in the configuration dialog where there is
> also some explanation.
>
> In addition the section is the menubar is needed (also for some notebookbar
> implementation this drop down list was used).
>
> Add the different layouts into the configuration dialog give also the
> information what's a notebookbar and a standard toolbar (the icon size can
> be different configured).
>
> Cheers
> Andreas_K
>
> 2018-03-25 21:02 GMT+02:00 Heiko Tietze :
>
> > Hello,
> >
> > in the patch https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/49575/ Kshitij is
> working
> > on issue tdf#115131 (merging the two menu flavors). The patch works find
> > but we stumbled over the label question. Right now it looks like this
> >
> > Toolbar
> >   Standard
> >   Single
> >   Sidebar
> >   - separator -
> >   Notebookbar > Contextual groups
> >   Notebookbar > Contextual single
> >   Notebookbar > Tabbed
> >
> > My comment was to remove the prefix but Jay disagreed with the remark
> that
> > such a combined menu would better be called UI Layout. The change may
> look
> > like this
> >
> > UI Layout
> >   Standard
> >   Single
> >   Sidebar
> >   - separator -
> >   Contextual groups
> >   Contextual single
> >   Tabbed
> >
> > Now I wonder how users may read "UI Layout > Single", for instance. And
> > calling it "Single Toolbar" is also not that nice thinking about
> "Standard"
> > or "Standard Toolbar" (and suffixes are similarly awkward as prefixes).
> >
> > I still prefer this plain solution as any prefix is a clear indicator for
> > bad usability (meaning the items are actually meant for a submenu). Any
> > opinion?
> >
> > Cheers,
> > Heiko
> >
> >
> > --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Agenda for the design meeting 2018 Mar/21

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I thought eventually LO would migrate to GTK3 so Glade would be used by
default?

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 1:26 PM, kainz.a  wrote:

> Hi Pedro,
>
> thanks for the Notebookbar buglist. We have a GSOC Student how will work
> on notebookbar so it's also my dream that notebookbar will be awaiy from
> experimental. My dream would be also 6.1 but I hope it will happen at least
> with 6.2.
>
> As the notebookbar is different implemented then the default and sidebar
> layout I don't think it should be default in the near future. Bigest
> problem is that when the NB bugs are fixed the NB isn't configurable by the
> LO UI.
>
> But I hopen NB will be ready for use in the near future for the people how
> will like it.
>
> I know zereo about coding, but I did the Groupedbar full/compact and
> tabbedbar compact. So you don't need ANY coding experience to join the LO
> design group on telegram or anywhere else. You can make notebookbars
> without coding with the gnome glade app which is a GUI to make the
> notebookbar.
>
> Cheers
> Andreas_K
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Agenda for the design meeting 2018 Mar/21

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Guys, I've added a bunch of bugs related to the Notebookbar. Not sure if
there will be any focus in polishing it any further to make it available in
6.1 as a feature and not experimentally (it would be an amazing addition
together with Colibre - 6.1 would make a big splash with the Groupedbar
Full + Colibre as default in Windows - hey, a man can dream).

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116531
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116532
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116533
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116534
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116535 --> (this last
one is just an enhancement unrelated with the Notebookbar)

By the way, is the purpose of the Notebookbar to eventually replace the
current UI options? If so, maybe it would be a good idea to replicate the
current Standard Toolbar, Single Toolbar and the Sidebar in the Notebookbar?

Any way, have a good meeting (I can't frequent them - classes at that time
and I know zero about coding).

On Wed, Mar 21, 2018 at 2:43 AM, Joe Brazell <infinity...@hughes.net> wrote:

> That Colibre set is quite nice, and would definitely be an improvement for
> Windows users.
>
> One area in which LO has been trailing is meeting the latest design
> standards for Windows. The Notebookbar is making good progress and having a
> Windows 10-esque icon theme would be another improvement. I use Breeze as
> it is the most similar to Windows 10, but Colibre would be an improvement.
>
>
>
> I guess I am unfamiliar with how distributing it would work, but I would
> assume making it available ASAP even if not in the LO build, but including
> it in 6.1 may be a good idea.
>
>
>
> *From: *Pedro Rosmaninho <mota.pr...@gmail.com>
> *Sent: *Tuesday, March 20, 2018 6:49 PM
> *To: *kainz.a <kain...@gmail.com>
> *Cc: *V Stuart Foote <vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu>; LibreOffice Design
> <design@global.libreoffice.org>
> *Subject: *Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Agenda for the design meeting
> 2018 Mar/21
>
>
>
> Well, I totally back Kainz.
>
> Even more so when he says he completed plenty of the icon sets and is
>
> providing support.
>
>
>
> On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:58 PM, kainz.a <kain...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > *Colibre backport for 6.0 to get a bigger audience*
>
> > +1 stuart
>
> >
>
> > backport the zip file for the icon theme would'n be a big deal
>
> > but introduce a new default without a previous release could be an issue.
>
> >
>
> > As already written Colibre follow the icon guidelines from MSO
>
> > and since yesterday Colibre is complete. So now I'll make design fixes
>
> > and when someone find a missing icon, I'll happy to fix it.
>
> >
>
> > *One icon theme for all platforms*
>
> > -1 heiko
>
> >
>
> > In general it's a good idea to have a brand or cooperate design,
>
> > but we have Breeze for KDE/Plasma, Tango for Gnome,
>
> > Elementary for Elementary and Colibre for Windows.
>
> > In addition LibreOffice use also the platform style (gnome, kde, windows)
>
> > so when you want one icon theme, than you should make also only one
> style.
>
> >
>
> > As I wrote I'm not again move icon themes to the extension wepage,
>
> > but than LO should also get a unique design and don't fit each platform
>
> > as much as possible.
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > *Galaxy and Tango*
>
> >
>
> > Galaxy is somewhere "hardcoded" into the code (I don't know where)
>
> > so I'm not sure if it's possible to remove Galaxy.
>
> >
>
> > Tango is unmaintained and fare away from complete.
>
> > I moved the existing tango svg icons to a separate folder so that
>
> > the svg files wasn't shipped any more with the images_tango.zip file
>
> > this reduce the zip file from 8 mb to 1 mb.
>
> >
>
> > *Breeze, Elementary and Colibre*
>
> >
>
> > I updated Elementary icons for 6.0 and now Elementary is finished like
>
> > breeze or colibre. I also maintain all three icon themes. And I think I
> did
>
> > it well in the last years. All three icon themes are made in inkscape so
>
> > all are available in svg and png. And I'll vote for make all three svg
> icon
>
> > themes available in LibreOffice Online.
>
> >
>
> > *Community Vote*
>
> >
>
> > Last time we vote was a disaster (mascot, sorry). I'm again a community
>
> > vote
>
> > cause I don't see a benefit Colibre was designed for Windows 10 and it
>
> > fit's
>
> > what if t

Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Agenda for the design meeting 2018 Mar/21

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Well, I totally back Kainz.
Even more so when he says he completed plenty of the icon sets and is
providing support.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 9:58 PM, kainz.a  wrote:

> *Colibre backport for 6.0 to get a bigger audience*
> +1 stuart
>
> backport the zip file for the icon theme would'n be a big deal
> but introduce a new default without a previous release could be an issue.
>
> As already written Colibre follow the icon guidelines from MSO
> and since yesterday Colibre is complete. So now I'll make design fixes
> and when someone find a missing icon, I'll happy to fix it.
>
> *One icon theme for all platforms*
> -1 heiko
>
> In general it's a good idea to have a brand or cooperate design,
> but we have Breeze for KDE/Plasma, Tango for Gnome,
> Elementary for Elementary and Colibre for Windows.
> In addition LibreOffice use also the platform style (gnome, kde, windows)
> so when you want one icon theme, than you should make also only one style.
>
> As I wrote I'm not again move icon themes to the extension wepage,
> but than LO should also get a unique design and don't fit each platform
> as much as possible.
>
>
> *Galaxy and Tango*
>
> Galaxy is somewhere "hardcoded" into the code (I don't know where)
> so I'm not sure if it's possible to remove Galaxy.
>
> Tango is unmaintained and fare away from complete.
> I moved the existing tango svg icons to a separate folder so that
> the svg files wasn't shipped any more with the images_tango.zip file
> this reduce the zip file from 8 mb to 1 mb.
>
> *Breeze, Elementary and Colibre*
>
> I updated Elementary icons for 6.0 and now Elementary is finished like
> breeze or colibre. I also maintain all three icon themes. And I think I did
> it well in the last years. All three icon themes are made in inkscape so
> all are available in svg and png. And I'll vote for make all three svg icon
> themes available in LibreOffice Online.
>
> *Community Vote*
>
> Last time we vote was a disaster (mascot, sorry). I'm again a community
> vote
> cause I don't see a benefit Colibre was designed for Windows 10 and it
> fit's
> what if the community say we want to have Elementary default. I would be
> again this vote also if you choose breeze. I like both and I think breeze
> is the most modern icon theme, but it was designed for plasma not for
> windows.
>
> I see a benefit if we involve the community to make colibre better
> to report bugs, ...
>
> *My vote*
>
> I will vote for no change for remove icon themes from the core repository
> and Colibre as default for LibreOffice 6.1
> Backport for LO 6.0 would be fine but no default change in LO 6.0
>
> And sorry I can't participate the design meeting tomorrow.
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018 Mar/21

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

But do the icon sets being offered interfere in any way or are a big burden
to the install files of Libre Office?
IMO,  they're well hidden already, and only people that want to change them
will look for them. Doesn't having them in the suite by default facilitate
the job of maintainers in picking the icon set they prefer (ex. KDE distro
devs picking Breeze, Gnome-based distro devs picking Tango or Sifr, etc).

Either way, I don't believe that backporting to 6.0 is a good idea. It's
already out. Wait for 6.1 and use that plus some polish to the Notebookbar
modules to make a big splash in the 6.1 release and use the extra time to
really polish the icon set if it's going to be used by default.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 7:52 PM, Heiko Tietze 
wrote:

> My take (and the question for tomorrow) on all this goes beyond what
> Andreas/Stuart want, which is Colibre on Windows starting with 6.0. In my
> opinion we have too many icon themes, most (if not all) not based on actual
> requests from the community. We rely on the unmaintained Galaxy as
> fallback, provide the totally outdated Tango, and Breeze as a very specific
> theme. All these are much better provided as extension, with the additional
> benefit that the maintainer has full control over updates.
>
> The suggestion was deliberately done as _one theme_ and not Colibre. But
> I'm not so sure that asking the community is the best way since macOS users
> have different needs than people on Windows or Linux. And as Stuart wrote
> we have a perfect maintainer for Colibre - depending on the plan how this
> theme should evolves; providing differently colored variants is the
> opposite of my idea; and I'm missing some basic postulates about the design
> such as round, colorful, fullsize, with small decorations or whatever.
>
> What I had in mind was to discuss these arguments first in the design
> meeting and ask later on the ML. But since people likely not join it
> doesn't matter anyway. ;-)
>
> On 20.03.2018 18:15, Daniel A. Rodriguez wrote:
> >>  * Default icon set
> >>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90194 (Breeze
> > Colibre)
> >>+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115867
> (Colibre)
> >>+ ask the community and ship only one icon theme (Heiko)
> >
> >
> > Why not elementary?
> >
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Agenda for the design meeting 2018 Mar/21

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

That Colibre icon set is gorgeous!! And it will fit perfectly in Windows 10.

However, will it be the default icon set for Windows only? I don't think it
suits any Linux distro.

On Tue, Mar 20, 2018 at 5:15 PM, Daniel A. Rodriguez <
daniel.armando.rodrig...@gmail.com> wrote:

> >  * Default icon set
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90194 (Breeze
> > Colibre)
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=115867
> (Colibre)
> >+ ask the community and ship only one icon theme (Heiko)
>
>
> Why not elementary?
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Minutes of the design meeting 2018-Jan-31

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Working on papercut bugs is somewhat crucial.
If the user experience with each module of Libre Office demands that the
user has to use work-arounds to get work done in LO then he will just use
other officesuites where he won't face those same issues.
Getting someone to fix those issues would be crucial.

An example in Calc like the one Renon posted in Impress is this one:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=53300

A bug that exists since Open Office days... With LO and the TDF constantly
bragging about having cleaned up so many bugs in LO it's unforgivable that
UX bugs like this one are still lingering from Open Office days.



On Sat, Feb 3, 2018 at 7:58 PM, Michel RENON 
wrote:

> Hi,
>
> Le 31/01/2018 à 21:48, Heiko Tietze a écrit :
>
>> [...]
>> GSoC
>>
>>   * Full list of ideas https://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX-GSoC_Ideas
>>   * Public list https://wiki.documentfoundatio
>> n.org/Development/GSoC/Ideas#User_Interface
>>
>
> Here are some suggestions based on my recent experience in teaching
> LibreOffice and writing a python macro :
>
>
>
> Impress : work on "papercut" bugs
> --
>
>
> 1 - Animations sets for a text box with several paragraphs don't affect
> new paragraphs (not inherited)
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=57581
>
> This is the most annoying problem that new users face :
>   - they create a slide with few lines of text,
>   - they add an animation on the text, to make it appear line by line
>   - they test : it works correctly
>   - they add one line of text (inside or at the end)
>   - they test and boom... the animation is "broken"
>   - they make a pause, then... close impress and open powerpoint...
>
>
>
> 2 - Editing: Text spacing changes when click in textbox
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=89060
>
> It is a subtle but very annoying visual effect.
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Python macros
> 
>
>
> I had to create a macro embedded in a file.
> As I had not written basic for a long time, I tried to write it in python.
>
> The fist problem is that on Ubuntu, it is necessary to install a specific
> package 'libreoffice-script-provider-python'
>
>
> The second problem is that, by default, there is no tool to integrate a
> python macro in a document.
> I found the APSO extension [1] that allows that and is very useful.
>
> I found some difficult points in writing python macro with that extension :
>   - after modifying a python script, you have to close and re-open the odf
> file
>   - some inline documentation is missing : about API, and some sample code
>   - the context (available via XSCRIPTCONTEXT) is missing some API,
> compared to basic
>
>
>
>
>
> So here are my suggestions for GSoC :
>   - allow an easy activation of python support : a simple button would
> download and install all necessary packages
>   - integrate the functionality of APSO (to allow embedding/managing
> python script in odf file)
>   - remove the need to re-open the odf file before using a new version of
> python script
>
>
>
> Other points can be done directly in the current extension :
>   - add some inline documentation about API [2]
>   - add inline documentation on both ways to use python script :
> - an external script that connects to LibreOffice
> - an internal script that get called by menu/button
>   - allow to create scripts empty or with comments (that provide minimum
> documentation and good practice)
>   - add a library of sample code (a list of "how-to ?"), that can be
> easily copied in script files
>
>
> Adding API to the context (available via XSCRIPTCONTEXT) can be done by
> working on LibreOffice code :
> /usr/lib/libreoffice/program/pythonscript/py
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michel
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [1] https://extensions.libreoffice.org/extensions/apso-
> alternative-script-organizer-for-python
>
> [2] based on very useful page https://wiki.openoffice.org/wi
> ki/Python/Transfer_from_Basic_to_Python
>
>
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[libreoffice-design] Notebookbar complete minor bugs

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Hey guys, congrats on a great launch. I installed 6.0 and enabled the
Notebookbar and changed to the Groupedbar Complete UI.

It has some minor bugs: I have my notebook (resolution 1366x768) connected
to a Full HD display using dual monitors.
In Calc, the Groupedbar complete does not adjust completely to the
resolution of my notebook display. It cuts the Menu, Tools and Help
options. In Impress and Writer this is not an issue.

The Notebookbar options are almost perfect to become full replacements to
the traditional UI options. Congrats. :)

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Minutes of the Design Hangout: 2017-Jan-12

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Why don'tyou ask for help of the KDE guys to make a new colored Breeze
theme? They've created a bunch of colored icons to use on desktop maybe LO
could use something similar?
Or ask them for help to change the icons to increase legibility so that it
can be adopted as the default theme in Windows? The adoption rate of W10
has been quite big and occured very fast so adopting a theme that suits it
better than to legacy W7 with an ever decreasing market share would make
sense...

On Thu, Jan 12, 2017 at 1:22 PM, kainz.a  wrote:

> Hi
>
> 2017-01-12 14:03 GMT+01:00 Heiko Tietze :
>
> > Present: Jay, Tomazs, Kendy, Steve, Heiko
> >
> > Tickets
> >
> >  * Make Breeze the default icon set on Windows
> >+ https://pirati.ca/display/a6551d712873888e843e54a74a8e772a61684afd
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=90194
> >+ https://plus.google.com/107566594492891737454/posts/H6W86P19atW
> >  + 60% Yes after one day
> >+ Yes (Tomazs)
> >+ No, because Breeze is not enough colorful and too thin (Jay, Kendy,
> > Heiko)
> >/keep it for now
> >
>
> In Win 7 tango fit's well. I don't know how it will fit in Win 10.
> I can't change the breeze icon geometry, but as everything is svg,
> color changing wouldn't be a problem to fit windows better.
>
>
> >  * Installer icon
> >(last week)
> >+ https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=103677
> >  https://bug-attachments.documentfoundation.org/
> > attachment.cgi?id=128467
> >+ Double-check if ico contains multiple images (Jay)
> >+ Tango is not really up-to-date and not suitable for Windows (Jay)
> >+ See what other installers use (Jay)
> >+ Revert change like Stuart mentioned (Jay)
> >+ Let's check other installers and decide next week what to do (Heiko)
> >(this week)
> >+ Andreas' solution is good (Kendy)
> >+ leave it as it is as the default is very close to what we have (Jay)
> >/ Make a test first with a nightly build that contains Andreas'
> > solution (Kendy)
> >
>
> I used tango icons for the installer, cause the installer is for windows
> and tango is the default icon set, so the default design language for
> windows.
>
> I can also make a proposal for another design language (breeze, galaxy,
> sifr, ...)
> but I wouldn't prefer to have an installer icon that fit's any LO design
> language.
> So say what you want and I will have a look if I can make it happen.
>
> cheers
> Andreas K
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Notebookbar

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

So it's going to be introduced in 5.3 after all? I thought someone
mentioned that it was going to be postponed because of bugs in bugzilla?

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=101249
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=102062



On Thu, Oct 13, 2016 at 2:34 PM, Italo Vignoli 
wrote:

> Actually, the concept name might be different from MUFFIN (an acronym
> for MUltiple Form Factor INterface). I am working on the topic, and we
> will discuss some alternatives soon with the design team.
>
> On 13/10/2016 14:55, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> > Hello all,
> >
> > there are rumors about a great new feature upcoming in 5.3 - and we want
> to feed the hungry. The Notebookbar is going to be introduced and marketing
> wants to announce it as the MUFFIN concept. We believe this announcement
> would be perfectly accompanied by a UX blog post about the reasoning behind
> the layouts. And what's possible. So we created a draft for this blog post
> and would like to share it first. The posting is meant to be published
> together or directly after the marketing text.
> >
> > Primary site is GDoc: https://docs.google.com/document/d/
> 1gFXTIsZ29homC4vpOdx0s_a_n9fuiXp97Nq4zzu2QqU/edit#
> > Alternative Etherpad: http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX-Notebookbar
> >
> > Thanks in advance for commenting,
> > Heiko
> >
>
>
> --
> Italo Vignoli - LibreOffice Marketing & PR
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Home for the breeze icon theme

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

It's just that LO has so many great icon sets that people spent so many
hours working on, that it just dissapoints me that this work is mostly
ignored by the majority of users that won't ever change the default icon
set from Tango, which has existed for ages and looks dated (even with the
current improvements).

Heck, Tango is starting to not even look integrated in Gnome 3 since, the
design paradigm of gnome has changed as well. Breeze is a much more modern
icon set, just as Sifr is, and they were both the result of work from LO
contributors and not a legacy icon set adopted from AOO (even if Tango also
received multiple improvements along the way).

And I mean, with the amazing work that all of you did in the past few years
on the UI of LO, the building blocks to present new default UIs and give
users the option between default UIs adjusted to their preferences in
workflow are all there.

The Sidebar has been vastly improved. The single toolbar mode was
integrated. There is a bunch of different icon sets that adjust to old OSes
or to new OSes...
And the Notebookbar is coming along.

The KDE DE has an option of "themes" that changes a few presets. Something
similar could be presented to LO users at first boot.

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:42 AM, Pedro Rosmaninho <mota.pr...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> ​Well, in that Welcome dialog I would probably just put some preset UI
> options (simple toolbar, traditional toolbar, toolbar+Sidebar) along with
> that. A bit like Kingsoft Office does.​
>
> On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips <ypha...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
>
>> On 08/01/2016 06:51 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>>
>>> I thought it was possible to discriminate the Windows version to present
>>> a distinct icon set per version.
>>>
>>
>> I'm not sure if it is possible as i dont know how the installer works.
>>
>> Since Tango doesn't look native to Windows I think using another icon
>>> set with a more native feel would fit better, even for previous versions
>>> of Windows. For example, Office 13 and 16 also adopt a different design
>>> language than Aero but they don't look out of place in Windows 7.
>>>
>>
>> Most apps on windows dont have native looking icons in their interface
>> similar to the windows OS. Here are screenshots from 2 of the top 10
>> downloaded apps on windows.
>>
>> http://images.six.betanews.com/screenshots/1100194579-1.png
>>
>> http://antivirus-freedownload.com/proimg/avast.jpg
>>
>> And barely anyone is using previous versions of Wnidows to 7 after the
>>> end-of-life for XP.
>>>
>>
>> Yes Vista pretty much disappeared once 7 arrived, but XP is still holding
>> in there with 7 to 10 percent, which is quite close to what Win8 has today.
>> Win 7 is king with ~45% and Win 10 is ~22% thanks to the the 1-year upgrade
>> giveaway that just ended, and many users were automatically upgraded. But
>> now that that free upgrade is over, i dont see Win10 going over 30% for the
>> forseeable future, especially when Win7 will be supported for atleast
>> another 3.5 years and users can still buy Win7 laptops today. Also the year
>> of the linux desktop seems to be near. ;D
>>
>> I also think that Sifr looks better on MacOS than Breeze. A lot of work
>>> was done in these icon sets that look native in these two OSes. It is a
>>> waste not to put them front and center to the LibreOffice users on those
>>> OSes.
>>>
>>> Much like Tango is perfect for Gnome and Breeze also for KDE.
>>>
>>
>> Might be a useful thing to ask users in the proposed welcome dialog
>> (tdf#91441) so that they can make this choice after they install LO.
>>
>> Yousuf.
>>
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Home for the breeze icon theme

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

​Well, in that Welcome dialog I would probably just put some preset UI
options (simple toolbar, traditional toolbar, toolbar+Sidebar) along with
that. A bit like Kingsoft Office does.​

On Wed, Aug 3, 2016 at 10:07 AM, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips <ypha...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> On 08/01/2016 06:51 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>
>> I thought it was possible to discriminate the Windows version to present
>> a distinct icon set per version.
>>
>
> I'm not sure if it is possible as i dont know how the installer works.
>
> Since Tango doesn't look native to Windows I think using another icon
>> set with a more native feel would fit better, even for previous versions
>> of Windows. For example, Office 13 and 16 also adopt a different design
>> language than Aero but they don't look out of place in Windows 7.
>>
>
> Most apps on windows dont have native looking icons in their interface
> similar to the windows OS. Here are screenshots from 2 of the top 10
> downloaded apps on windows.
>
> http://images.six.betanews.com/screenshots/1100194579-1.png
>
> http://antivirus-freedownload.com/proimg/avast.jpg
>
> And barely anyone is using previous versions of Wnidows to 7 after the
>> end-of-life for XP.
>>
>
> Yes Vista pretty much disappeared once 7 arrived, but XP is still holding
> in there with 7 to 10 percent, which is quite close to what Win8 has today.
> Win 7 is king with ~45% and Win 10 is ~22% thanks to the the 1-year upgrade
> giveaway that just ended, and many users were automatically upgraded. But
> now that that free upgrade is over, i dont see Win10 going over 30% for the
> forseeable future, especially when Win7 will be supported for atleast
> another 3.5 years and users can still buy Win7 laptops today. Also the year
> of the linux desktop seems to be near. ;D
>
> I also think that Sifr looks better on MacOS than Breeze. A lot of work
>> was done in these icon sets that look native in these two OSes. It is a
>> waste not to put them front and center to the LibreOffice users on those
>> OSes.
>>
>> Much like Tango is perfect for Gnome and Breeze also for KDE.
>>
>
> Might be a useful thing to ask users in the proposed welcome dialog
> (tdf#91441) so that they can make this choice after they install LO.
>
> Yousuf.
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Home for the breeze icon theme

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I thought it was possible to discriminate the Windows version to present a
distinct icon set per version.
Since Tango doesn't look native to Windows I think using another icon set
with a more native feel would fit better, even for previous versions of
Windows. For example, Office 13 and 16 also adopt a different design
language than Aero but they don't look out of place in Windows 7.

And barely anyone is using previous versions of Wnidows to 7 after the
end-of-life for XP.
I also think that Sifr looks better on MacOS than Breeze. A lot of work was
done in these icon sets that look native in these two OSes. It is a waste
not to put them front and center to the LibreOffice users on those OSes.

Much like Tango is perfect for Gnome and Breeze also for KDE.

On Mon, Aug 1, 2016 at 12:14 PM, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips <ypha...@gmail.com>
wrote:

> Hi Pedro,
>
> There is a bug report requesting the same thing (tdf#90194) and its
> possible that Breeze fits well for windows 10 theme, but there are more
> users on other versions of windows than windows 10, so i wouldnt be in
> favour of it.
>
> http://gs.statcounter.com/#desktop-os-ww-monthly-201506-201606
>
> Looking back, i think it was a mistake to move to Breeze on MacOS,
> especially just after moving to Sifr by default in the previous version
> after a survey confirmed that half of Mac users were switching to it. Some
> of the problems I see with Breeze on Mac is that it blends badly with the
> gradient background of the toolbar, though users who get LO from the
> appstore dont have this problem as the toolbar is has a white background.
>
> https://youtu.be/lBWjBRPFdz0?t=31s
>
>
> http://a4.mzstatic.com/us/r30/Purple7/v4/b1/85/37/b1853762-fa00-72e4-f672-f2d12117211d/screen800x500.jpeg
>
> Another problem is that Macs are primarily HiDPI and we dont have SVG
> icons support in yet.
>
> Yousuf
>
>
> On 08/01/2016 01:03 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
>
>> This may be a bit off-topic, but couldn't the Breeze theme become the
>> default theme in Windows 10?
>> It fits a lot better with the design language of W10 than Tango (as KDE
>> usually fits better with Windows than Gnome). And Breeze is already the
>> default on MacOS...
>>
>>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Home for the breeze icon theme

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

This may be a bit off-topic, but couldn't the Breeze theme become the
default theme in Windows 10?
It fits a lot better with the design language of W10 than Tango (as KDE
usually fits better with Windows than Gnome). And Breeze is already the
default on MacOS...

On Sun, Jul 31, 2016 at 7:04 PM, kainz.a  wrote:

> Hi,
>
> For your information uri inform me before he closed the repository and the
> kde stuff on github wasn't up to date.
>
> But yes in general the png files isn't useful for new contributions and the
> origin file is the important stuff. You wouldn't save exe files. The cpp
> files are the needed.
>
> Thanks for upload the files.
> Andreas kainz
>
> Am 31.07.2016 15:09 schrieb "Yousuf 'Jay' Philips" :
>
> > Hi all,
> >
> > Andreas informed me that the github repo that was hosting LO's breeze
> icon
> > theme, as well as all the breeze icons for kde, has been removed and he
> > asked where can the breeze svgs be hosted. I've uploaded the SVGs to the
> > core repo under /icon-themes/breeze/svg/.
> >
> > https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/27750
> >
> > This incident has gotten me thinking of how secure are we with our sifr
> > and tango icon themes on github.
> >
> > https://github.com/libodesign/icons
> >
> > Yousuf
> >
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Results from the Draw Survey

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I know this goes a bit against the philosophy usually followed by Libre
Office, but if you held and released it only when it has a 1024 color
palette it would have bigger impact because you would release something
already much more polished and usable. The marketing team could then give
more emphasis to that.

On Tue, Apr 12, 2016 at 8:57 PM, toki  wrote:

> On 11/04/2016 06:58, Heiko Tietze wrote:
> > We run some of the previous studies localized. Even Chinese was
> > included in one of the surveys. The problem is that not only waiting
> > for the translation team heavily reduces the velocity but also the
> > analysis of free text answers needs language expertise.
>
> That was partially why I wrote "If the L10N teams are available".  My
> assumption being that an L10N team, or member thereof willing to
> translate into the target language, would also be willing, and able to
> translate responses, if needed.  (Machine translation can go so far,
> before it fails spectacularly.)
>
> >> I'm finally creating a comprehensive list of use-cases.
> > UX team decided to compile the results into a couple of bugs. Maybe we
> can work together.
>
> In as much as reading the responses ended up in me getting side tracked
> abusing LibO as a pixel-by-pixel editor (export only), I haven't gotten
> any further than a quasi outline.
>
> ###
>
> I'm trying to decide if the pixel-by-pixel template should be released
> as a work in progress, with updates as the colour palette increases, or
> if I should wait until it has a 1024 colour palette.
>
> jonathon
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I think it is good to have alternative interactions definitely. But those
interactions should add something diferent. For example, I can do some
quick configurations through sidebar/toolbar but through menus I can
achieve more fine tuning.

I think that even if there are alternative interactions each of those
interactions should open by the comand of the user. When selecting a
chart/image/symbol that all the alternative interactions of the toolbar,
sidebar and menus popped open at the same time. Right now that is what's
happening with the toolbar and sidebar.

So the question I would ask would be more the following:

"When selecting an object (like a chart, text box or shape) do you want to
have its formatting controls at either toolbar or sidebar?"
( ) Toolbar
( ) Sidebar



On Thu, Feb 25, 2016 at 6:12 PM, Heiko Tietze <tietze.he...@googlemail.com>
wrote:

> On Donnerstag, 25. Februar 2016 12:34:35 CET Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
> > Is the survey already running or will it still be launched?
> Nope, still time to add ideas.
>
> > Anyway, I would just like to make a proposal for changing one aspect of
> the
> > behaviour of the Sidebar and toolbar. Right now on LO 5.1 when a certain
> > object like charts or pictures or symbols is selected there is a
> > duplication of formatting options that appear on the Sidebar and also on
> > the toolbars.
> > IMO, when selecting an object the formatting properties for that object
> > should appear only in the Sidebar (as is the case even in Microsoft
> Office
> > 2013 where they have a sidebar of sorts).
> >
> >  And not have the same commands showing up also in the toolbar cluttering
> > it (also the Sidebar invariably shows more commands than the toolbar and
> > allows for easier understanding of what each command is since they
> usually
> > also include text and category names.
> >
> > Also, just as in Impress the text formating toolbar disappeared since
> most
> > of its functions are present in the Sidebar I would propose to remove the
> > text Formatting toolbar in Writer and Calc to have coherence between the
> > three main modules of LO and because those functions are duplicated in
> the
> > Sidebar and toolbar.
> You can either add those ideas to the survey. Or we ask another question
> like
>
> "Do you want to have controls at only one position. either toolbar or
> sidebar?"
> ( ) No, I want to have the freedom to use both
> ( ) Yes, please clean up the interface
>
> However, I think this would violate usability. Redundancy in terms of
> alternative interactions is good. Your argument could be that redundancy
> means
> to have the opportunity to start from main menu. context menu, toolbar or
> per
> keyboard. And toolbar vs sidebar are badly redundant since it doesn't add
> an
> alternative way to control the application.
>
> Opinions please.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Sidebar Survey

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Is the survey already running or will it still be launched?

Anyway, I would just like to make a proposal for changing one aspect of the
behaviour of the Sidebar and toolbar. Right now on LO 5.1 when a certain
object like charts or pictures or symbols is selected there is a
duplication of formatting options that appear on the Sidebar and also on
the toolbars.

IMO, when selecting an object the formatting properties for that object
should appear only in the Sidebar (as is the case even in Microsoft Office
2013 where they have a sidebar of sorts).

 And not have the same commands showing up also in the toolbar cluttering
it (also the Sidebar invariably shows more commands than the toolbar and
allows for easier understanding of what each command is since they usually
also include text and category names.

Also, just as in Impress the text formating toolbar disappeared since most
of its functions are present in the Sidebar I would propose to remove the
text Formatting toolbar in Writer and Calc to have coherence between the
three main modules of LO and because those functions are duplicated in the
Sidebar and toolbar.

On Tue, Feb 23, 2016 at 9:36 PM, Jan Holesovsky  wrote:

> Hi Heiko,
>
> Heiko Tietze píše v Út 23. 02. 2016 v 10:43 +0100:
>
> > we repeatedly talk about sidebars, whether it should be resizable with
> > or without constraints, how to make it configurable, what features to
> > add, and so on. Often we run into a fundamental discussion, which is
> > an indicator for a missing concept. So the idea is to ask the users
> > how they utilize the sidebar and how they want it to evolve.
>
> Thank you for putting it together, and especially for:
>
> > http://pad.documentfoundation.org/p/UX_Sidebar-Survey
>
> It's great to be able to work on it using the TDF infrastructure :-)
> I've added some minor tweaks, hope it helps.
>
> All the best,
> Kendy
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] LibreOffice 5.1 Announcement

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I recommend to point out the following features:
1 - There is now support for cloud services with the Open/Save Remote Files
in Google Drive, One Drive, Dropbox.(when there's reviews of LibreOffice on
the web the reviewers always pick on this) - it would be a good way to say
that LO now supports something that other Office suites had for a long time.
2 - New Menus and more improvements to Sidebar,
3 - Improvements to Calc format engine,
4 - Improvements to Impress UI (new icon based selection palette to
Sidebar), Save Background Image, etc...
5 - Interoperability is again improved with the new import filters, OOXML,
etc.


On Mon, Jan 18, 2016 at 8:29 AM, kainz.a  wrote:

> Dark theme support and 32px icon set? I think it is in 5.1. maybe the 32px
> icons are only for HIDPI, I'm not sure.
>
> Cheers
> Andreas K
>
> 2016-01-18 8:25 GMT+01:00 Charles-H. Schulz <
> charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org>:
>
> > Hello Italo,
> >
> > I agree with your idea on the landing page. But we need 5 top features.
> > :-) any suggestions? I will write mine.
> >
> > Best,
> >
> > Charles
> >
> > Le 18 janvier 2016 02:12:13 GMT+01:00, Italo Vignoli <
> > it...@libreoffice.org> a écrit :
> > >We must start thinking about a LibreOffice 5.1 landing page (a solution
> > >could be to re-use LibreOffice 5.0 landing page, as the "five" motif is
> > >still a good one, and we do not need a brand new one for each release)
> > >and a LibreOffice 5.1 release page highlighting the top features.
> > >
> > >My list for the top 3 features is:
> > >
> > >1. New menus and toolbars for a better user interface
> > >2. An improved Calc engine for interoperability and compatibility
> > >3. OOXML interoperability has made another giant step forward
> > >
> > >Looking forward to other suggestions and comments.
> > >
> > >--
> > >Italo Vignoli - Libreoffice Marketing & PR
> > >mobile +39.348.5653829 - email / jabber it...@libreoffice.org
> > >hangout / jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com - skype italovignoli
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> > >
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Impress Mode Toolbar

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Michel, you can't complain that people are using links not posted in a
tdf/libreoffice website and then talk about feedback in a blog of someone
else. Why didn't that person provide feedback to the design mailing list
for example?

It's not the work of the people that work in UI/UX for LibreOffice to dig
through the Internet looking for feedback in obscure blogs. As for the
tools that they prefer to use, I don't see why they should be forced to eat
their own dogfood.
Should they try to incorporate LO as much as possible in their workflow?
Obviously! But if it's detrimental to their productivity then it's better
not to untill it suits them (they then can file bugs and offer feedback on
waht needs to be changed).
No company in the world does that if there's better alternatives out there.
Heck, do you think development of software in Google is done in ChromeOS or
Android? Or that they don't use Windows/MacOS/Linux distros?

People in charge of the UI/UX take into account as much feedback as they
can and that is quite transparent. Just go check the Hangouts minutes.
If lately the UI/UX hasn't been stable maybe it's because it had been
"stable" (more like fossilized) for far too long. There were even loads of
features that weren't exposed in the UI! I think it's more than certain
that as the UI/UX becomes updated that it will be more stated. But in a
piece of software with scheduled releases instead of a "launch when it's
ready" model people will inevitably see changes across the different
releases. As they do for the features that are introduced in each version.

As for Italo complaints, I find them very unfair since he was really
aggressive and even issued threats when he just complained in a really late
stage of the development process for 5.1. Where was his feedback when this
was discussed? Why didn't he provide his feedback earlier? If he wants to
have a bigger participation in the development then maybe he should
participate in the process earlier and not start shouting when there's
already a hard freeze when he could've said something before.

I think there's an issue of people not knowing how to properly leave their
feedback.

On Fri, Jan 15, 2016 at 3:57 PM, Michel RENON 
wrote:

> Le 15/01/2016 13:14, Heiko Tietze a écrit :
>
>> On Friday, 15 January 2016 11:49:26 CET Michel RENON wrote:
>>
>>> Please note that I was talking about "use cases, prototypes, user
>>> testing and iterate", not surveys.
>>>
>> That's my daily business too. But for LibO, and any other open source
>> application, you cannot run the development based on usability tests.
>>
>
>
> Well, that blog post talks exactly about that, and even some usability
> tests on... LibreOffice !
>
> http://opensource-usability.blogspot.fr/2016/01/usability-of-open-source-software.html
>
> and another feedback on recent changes :
>
> http://opensource-usability.blogspot.fr/2015/12/libreoffice-user-interface-changes.html
>
>
>
>
>
>
> [...]
>>
>> If I take time to define some use cases, will design team use them ?
>>>
>> Sure. Rather call it scenarios when not related to a special task and add
>> this
>> to the HIG.
>>
>
> HIG are not related to use cases.
> HIG are rules for developer : mostly "how-to layout widgets" and "what
> kind of behavior the user expects" to avoid asking again and again the same
> questions to design teams.
> HIG may describe some design pattern when developers may face similar
> problem at different place.
>
> Use cases are used only by designers to create metrics to compare
> different proposals.
>
>
>
>> [1] http://user-prompt.com/tracking-changes-with-libreoffice/
>> [2]
>> http://user-prompt.com/libreoffice-design-session-entries-at-indexes-and-tables/
>>
>>
>
> Another subject :
> in your 2 previous mails, nearly all links (27/29) provided are *not*
> based on a tdf/libreoffice website.
> Is there any link from the tdf wiki to the links you provided ?
>
> Can you understand my surprise ?
> It means that all surveys and related work done about LibreOffice may be
> stored and managed outside tdf infrastructure.
> It's related to my previous questions about storing design documents in
> the wiki instead of different personal accounts (gdoc  or anything else).
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> Michel
>
>
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Re: [libreoffice-design] libre office vs numbers

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Libre Office has design guidelines and you should stick to following those
ones instead of basing your contributions in design guidelines from other
software.

On Fri, Dec 4, 2015 at 1:53 PM, Roland Spitzlinger 
wrote:

> Hi Samuel,
>
> I love to get my hands dirty. Just give me some time and I’ll send you
> some mockups. Obviously I believe the numbers sidebar is really well
> crafted, meaning, I will base my work on that. If that's too close to the
> apple UI, please let me know.
> Apart from that I tend to follow the excellent elementary HIG.
>
> Best wishes,
> Roland
>
> Am 04.12.2015 um 14:37 schrieb Samuel Mehrbrodt :
>
> > Hi Roland,
> >
> > thanks for the screenshots.
> > Is there a chance you could get your hands dirty and try to improve the
> sidebar in calc yourself? We could lend you a hand if you like.
> >
> > Or do you have specific suggestions, what should be improved? If you do
> not plan to work on things yourself, it would most likely be picked up by
> someone if you break your suggestions down into small, concrete enhancement
> suggestions filed in bugzilla.
> >
> > Thanks a lot
> > Samuel
> > 
> > Von: Roland Spitzlinger 
> > Gesendet: Donnerstag, 26. November 2015 16:05
> > An: Samuel Mehrbrodt
> > Cc: design@global.libreoffice.org
> > Betreff: Re: [libreoffice-design] libre office vs numbers
> >
> > Hi Samuel,
> >
> > thanx for your reply.
> > I put the screenshots in the following folder:
> >
> https://drive.google.com/folderview?id=0B5CZFCSGix1ebmx2VlRSZWZkLXM=sharing
> >
> > Please also note the links to the individual screenshots below.
> >
> > best wishes,
> > roland
> >
> > Am 26.11.2015 um 15:46 schrieb Samuel Mehrbrodt  >:
> >
> >> Hi Roland,
> >>
> >> many thanks for your suggestions, they are good points.
> >>
> >> Unfortunately this mailing list has stripped off your attachments -
> could you please upload them somewhere else and post links to them?
> >>
> >> Thanks
> >> Samuel
> >> 
> >> Von: Roland Spitzlinger 
> >> Gesendet: Mittwoch, 25. November 2015 23:37
> >> An: design@global.libreoffice.org
> >> Betreff: [libreoffice-design] libre office vs numbers
> >>
> >> hello everyone,
> >>
> >> first of all thanx for your great effort!
> >> I have been using libre office for many years and it has improved a lot
> since then.
> >>
> >> I have been working on user interfaces in the past and I just thought
> you might appreciate a few thoughts that could potentially help improve the
> libre office UI. In fact, I have done a little comparison of libre office
> calc and numbers (osx). Based on that, here are a few suggestions:
> >>
> >> divide options into managable groups. do not show all options at the
> same time.
> >> instead organize them in sections
> >> work with tabs
> >> avoid strong color contrasts. the human eye isn’t made for it.
> >> avoid black on white background, use grey shades instead (dark grey on
> light grey is highly recommended)
> >> avoid bold text in strong colors such as black and red
> >> avoid colors in general, unless used to highlight something. this helps
> the user to focus on the important matters.
> >> only use colors to highlight the current state of a text/cell (e.g. the
> checkbox „Tausendertrennzeichen“ should be in color if it is active for the
> marked cell, otherwise it should be grey)
> >> do use colors for color options, obviously.
> >> combine related buttons in groups (see e.g. the button group
> „Ausrichtung“) this way the UI is less clustered and easier to comprehend.
> >> hide unnecessary design elements. as we all know, good design is as
> little design as possible.
> >> only show indicators when they are actually needed (see the two
> screenshots with color option below)
> >> avoid additional external formating menus with ever more options.
> instead work with tabs and control buttons within the sidebar framework
> (see last screenshot below)
> >> avoid scrollbars
> >> if they seem necessary, then this is a sign that there is already too
> much information
> >> if a scrollbar is needed, hide it until the user actually starts
> scrolling
> >>
> >> hope this is of any help. If you have any questions go ahaid.
> >>
> >> In any case, thanx again for your effort!
> >>
> >> best wishes,
> >> roland
> >>
> >>
> >> comparison of formating panels:
> >> numbers vs. libre office
> >>
> > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5CZFCSGix1eMkNnNV9qMUtEcW8
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> While libre office shows all options in one place, numbers breakes them
> down into logical and more comprenhensible sections.
> >>
> > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5CZFCSGix1eczNSSk8yUFRfeUk
> > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5CZFCSGix1eR0Fyck9IZTFPS1U
> > https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B5CZFCSGix1eWG9OUUpnRkNWbnM
> > 

Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

>
> El 10-11-2015 12:41, Pedro Rosmaninho escribió:
>
> If you don't like it, fine. If other people prefer it and actually
>> contribute based on their preferences then their opinion counts as much as
>> your if you're a contributor.
>>
>>
> Please we contribute to the discussion. If you read my arguments, I know
> beyond liking or not liking that option.
>
> I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
>>> the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar >>like google-docs.
>>>
>>
> ​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the Sidebar. I
>> give strong preference to the Sidebar >because it uses space in my 16:9
>> displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't presume that
>> your >way is the best just because you use more and then want to remove all
>> other options.​
>>
>
> Again, if you read my arguments, you would know that:
>
> - I also strongly support the sidebar, however, it does not seem desirable
> to have "duplicate functions" for the styles in Writer documents.
> Therefore, I am in favor of improving the panel "Styles and Formatting"
> and not additionally add a dropdown menu to apply styles in the properties
> panel. (Redundant also considering adding a menu of styles in version 5.1).
>
> - I never mention use many toolbars, on the contrary I propose a single
> tool bar, similar to that used in google-docs. In that context a dropdown
> menu would be useful. The other tools appear depending on the context of
> use in the sidebar.
>
> - The current functions of styles in the properties panel seem limited. If
> you use styles actively, always you end up using the panel "Styles and
> Formatting". Should continue developing, we have the same functions in two
> different sections of the sidebar (property panel and panel styles and
> formatting), which to me seems inconvenient.
> Should continue developing, we have the same functions in two different
> sections of the sidebar (property panel and styles and formatting panel),
> which to me seems inconvenient.
>
> See:
> https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/File:Styles-menu.png
>
> @Pedro What do you think about that?
>
>
> ​It seems that our opinions match strongly except on this matter. For me
the optimal default UI of LO would be one where the main modules have just
one single toolbar and everything else located in the Sidebar. This is
easily accomplishable in Writer already. Impress is already there! :)
Calc needs a bit more work.

As for the Styles Menu I think it improves the flexibility of LO allowing
people to use the menu instead​. Optimal for power users.

After reading your proposal further down, I must say I agree with you.
There's already Styles and Formatting and that tab of the Sidebar should be
improved.
But the Styles category in the Property panel has one advantage: it is
drop-down and easier to see the different Styles (although it constantly
crashes in my install of 5.0).

_

My question is:
*Why not add the style dropdown menu in the panel of styles and formatting?*

proposal:
- The dropdown menu can be positioned at the top or bottom of styles and
formatting panel.
- The drop-down menu will be sensitive categories (document styles, applied
styles, custom styles, etc.)
- (based on mockups) In a single panel (stack view?) Are displayed, the
paragraph and character styles.

In practice it would become very practical: a) at a glance would have
available all paragraph and character styles. b) through the dropdown menu,
based on categories would faster selection or specific styles.

This approach maintains differentiated the properties panel (direct
formatting) and panel styles and formatting.


I love this idea.
The Styles and Formatting panel in the Sidebar looks and behaves very
differently from the rest of the panels. The icons for the different
categories in the Tango icon set also don't help.

I would organize those categories as the categories are organized in the
Properties tab converting the current UI to dropdown menus as in the
Properties for the different categories.
This would make the UX similar between the Properties panel and Styles and
Formatting panel.

As for what Yousuf wrote, I think he means that this discussion won't give
results for 5.1 because there's a lot of other stuff being worked on.
This item should definitely be included for 5.2.

For more people to use the Styles and Formatting the UI must be clearer and
similar to the Properties panel.

On Wed, Nov 11, 2015 at 12:29 PM, Bastián Díaz <diaz.bast...@openmailbox.org
> wrote:

> El 11-11-2015 07:17, Yousuf 'Jay' Philips escribió:
>
>
>> You could consider deletin

Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

If you don't like it, fine. If other people prefer it and actually
contribute based on their preferences then their opinion counts as much as
your if you're a contributor.

On Tue, Nov 10, 2015 at 3:40 PM, Pedro Rosmaninho <mota.pr...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>
>>
>> I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
>> the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar like google-docs.
>>
>>>
>>>
> ​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the Sidebar. I
> give strong preference to the Sidebar because it uses space in my 16:9
> displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't presume that
> your way is the best just because you use more and then want to remove all
> other options.​
>
>

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Re: [libreoffice-design] The style drop down menu in properties tab (sidebar) is redundant and unnecessary

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

>
>
>
> I do not say otherwise. it is convenient to operate in a toolbar, not in
> the sidebar, so I proposed a toolbar like google-docs.
>
>>
>>
​To you. Other people find it more convenient to operate in the Sidebar. I
give strong preference to the Sidebar because it uses space in my 16:9
displays a lot better than having 2 or 3 toolbars. So don't presume that
your way is the best just because you use more and then want to remove all
other options.​

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Reviews of Libre Office focusing on the UI...

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

>
>
>
> > of the functions of the formatting toolbar are present in the Sidebar.
> > Maybe we could experiment removing the formatting toolbar by default?
>
> Whilst I am all in favour of abolishing the formatting bar, including
> its complete and utter elimination from the sidebar, the issue I see, if
> the formatting bar is removed, is people that have Stylist, Navigator,
> and the formatting toolbar open at the same time. Can all three be
> correctly displayed, in full, in the side bar?


​Pardon if I wasn't clear, when I mentioned removing the formatting toolbar
I intended to say to turn it off from the default UI but still accessible
from the View menu.​

​I would never remove it from the Sidebar because many people (not
organizations mind you)​ prefer to use the formatting toolbar instead of
Styles and I dislike having the devs imposing their preferred workflow on
the users (or how they think the software should be used. I would equate
that move to what MS did from Office 2003 to 2007 with the release of the
Ribbon UI.
I understand that it's great in many use cases but for many users the
advantages of Styles do not apply and they may have preference for using
the formatting tools. Removing the formatting options altogether from view
would amount to a loss of functionality for many people that don't mess
with the defaults and you would see tremendous backlash.

Also, the Styles and Formatting options in the Sidebar are correctly
displayed in full in the Sidebar in Writer. The Navigator has its own
category so I fail to see an issue there?...
In Calc the Sidebar is lacking the Conditional Formatting options.



>
> > "Data" section in the Sidebar to manipulate Filtering and Ordering (plus
> a
> > few other functions only present in menus) and transporting a lot of the
>
> Elimination of a toolbar should not result in the elimination of menu
> items.
>
> ​I ​never said it should. What I said is that the formatting toolbar in
Calc exposes functions that are not present in the Sidebar (the conditional
formatting options) so those should present in the Properties Sidebar
before removing the formatting toolbar from Calc.
And creating a Data tab in the Sidebar would allow to expose more Data
manipulation functions than what the toolbar allows right now.



> jonathon
>
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[libreoffice-design] Reviews of Libre Office focusing on the UI...

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Hey everyone,

http://www.techrepublic.com/article/libreoffice-5-0-the-strongest-release-to-date/

http://www.alphr.com/libreoffice-5/1001401/libreoffice-5-review

I just wanted to leave these reviews here because part of their reviews
focus on the UI and that may be relevant to help steer the direction on
which to focus the next UI improvements.

From what I've read around it would be good to focus on
- Exposing the option to save Files to cloud providers (the Remote File
option that was the subject of a study a few months ago),

- Decreasing the importance of the toolbar and improving the usability of
the Sidebar. Maybe try to implement a single toolbar in Writer and Calc
like we have in Impress and Draw already?

I feel this could be easily achieved in Writer for example since almost all
of the functions of the formatting toolbar are present in the Sidebar.
Maybe we could experiment removing the formatting toolbar by default?

In Calc this would be more tricky since it would imply probably creating a
"Data" section in the Sidebar to manipulate Filtering and Ordering (plus a
few other functions only present in menus) and transporting a lot of the
function of the Formating toolbar to the Sidebar.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving printing UX

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

The problem with using the OS print dialog is that some print may lack
options that LO needs.
I would stick with a LO print dialog. I even consider the current dialog
more intuitive than MSO 07 dialog.

On Thu, Jul 9, 2015 at 9:48 AM, Katarina Behrens katarina.behr...@cib.de
wrote:

 Hi *

  I've been wondering why we dont rely on the OS's print dialog rather
  than LO's internal one. It was something that came to mind as Heiko and
  I discussed dialogs for the HIG and the general rule is that dialogs
  should always utilize the OS's default dialogs, so that it LO integrates
  better with a user's OS.

 I didn't expect this kind of answer tbh :o)

 I was more looking for ideas how to improve status quo. Anyway -- I looked
 more closely at how print dialog in my (K)DE looks like and it's kinda
 slim,
 minimalistic, yet very usable. But then again, I'm a home user.

 I can imagine that a company printing several hundred pages of business
 correspondence per day or, dunno, a school printing their own brochures
 would
 be very unhappy about feature loss if LibO switched to platform default
 dialogs.

  In LO 3.4ish, we moved from using LO's internal file management dialogs
  to the OS's, so why didnt we do the same with the print dialog?

 The above is most likely answer to this why?

 --

 Katarina Behrens

 Softwareentwicklerin LibreOffice
 –––
 CIB software GmbH
 Geschäftsstelle Hamburg
 Flachsland 10
 22083 Hamburg
 –––
 T +49 (40) / 28 48 42 -235
 F +49 (40) / 28 48 42 -100

 katarina.behr...@cib.de
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 Registergericht München, HRB 123286
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Re: [libreoffice-design] HIG

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Just added a bit of feedback to the Sidebar section...
IMO, the Sidebar should offer module specific actions as well. It already
does in Impress and Draw and Calc and Writer could benefit from that as
well, by moving to a single toolbar view as Impress and Draw.

On Fri, Jun 26, 2015 at 8:58 PM, Cor Nouws oo...@nouenoff.nl wrote:

 Hi Heiko,

 Heiko Tietze wrote on 26-06-15 19:23:

  Oups, I forgot to mention that we continued with Context Menu and
 Sidebar. All
  other stuff before is finished which means moved to the wiki. And of
 course,
  your previous comments have been taken into consideration.

 Thanks - no problem, it' just me that missed it.
 Will see if there is some spare time this weekend - interesting enough.
 Ciao,


 --
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Re: [libreoffice-design] feedback on #91781

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Great reply. Thank you for the elaborate information.


On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 5:02 PM, Christophe Strobbe 
stro...@hdm-stuttgart.de wrote:

 Hi,

 On 10/06/2015 13:41, Pedro Rosmaninho wrote:
  I guess it is controversial because there's a hostility of some LO users
 to
  allow direct formatting of the document instead of resorting to Styles.
  Therefore, some people consider that direct formatting should be hidden?

 It is also an accessibility issue. If you make text bold and big instead
 of using a proper heading style, it is much harder for software (e.g.
 assistive technologies such as screenreaders, but also software that
 converts word processing files to DAISY books) to figure out that
 something is a heading. In fact, this category of software relies on
 correct styles to figure out what kind of structure is being used.

 This is why people have created accessible authoring guidelines such as
 these http://adod.idrc.ocad.ca/oowriter (I contributed to these
 guidelines) and an accessibility checker such as AccessODF
 http://accessodf.sourceforge.net/ (sadly no longer compatible since
 the introduction of the sidepanel from Lotus Symphony).
 Similar issues exist in web content, which is why we have guidelines
 such as WCAG http://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20/ (also an ISO standard) and
 WAI-ARIA http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/.

  However, many users do prefer to use direct formatting and competing
 Office
  suites provide easy access to direct formatting. I don't know why
  developers consider this to be a wrong approach?
  Making the access to direct formatting more difficult would just draw
  people away from LO to closed source office suites.
  And removing direct formatting just to make people more aware of
 Styles

 Most people don't know what direct formatting (as opposed to the use of
 proper styles) is, so the preferred approach should be to make the use
 of proper styles as easy and intuitive as possible.

 Best regards,

 Christophe

  wow. Is there a more heavy handed top-down approach from developers to
  force users to do things as they want to? Christ.
 
  If you want to make Styles more used than redesign the Sidebar for Styles
  and Formatting into something more intuitive. The way as it is presented
  now is completely unintuitive compared with the Properties tab where you
  clearly know what pressing the Bold button will do for example.
 
  If you want users to use Styles then strongly improve the UX of the
 Sidebar
  pane, allow for easy visualization of different styles and easy change of
  Style of each component.
 
 
 
  On Wed, Jun 10, 2015 at 12:07 PM, Jay Philips ypha...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Hi Sophie,
 
  On 06/07/2015 11:22 PM, Sophie wrote:
 
  The promise, at the time, was to re-start the survey to obtain more
  accurate statistics (I cannot remember the discussion word by word as
  too much time and too many things have gone by). I suppose that some
  objections coming from Sophie reflect those objections from the
  community.
 
  Yes, I'm on my way to ask the FR community to react on that, mostly
  those in real contact with users, doing migrations and training. Not
  because we want to rely only on users feedback but also on the
  robustness of our document roundtrip and exchanges, and for that, we
  know that styles are the common sense to treat them.
 
  Look forward to the feedback.
 
   Unfortunately, the survey was never re-started because of the Oracle
  acquisition and the subsequent turmoil inside StarDivision and inside
  the community.
 
  That would be a great thing to do a survey now that people are more
  aware of the necessity to communicate in different environments.
 
  Jay, I'll answer your details tomorrow, but about direct formatting,
  that was one of the most controversial thing to add it to the sidebar
 so
  prominently. Most of the training material available remove the
  formating toolbar to make people aware of styles...
 
  Dont see why it would be controversial when all other office suites that
  utilize sidebars (iWork, Calligra) have direct formatting in the
 sidebar.
  The sad thing is that paragraph and character styles dropdown lists
 arent
  present in the sidebar's properties tab.
 
  Jay
 


 --
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 Akademischer Mitarbeiter
 Responsive Media Experience Research Group (REMEX)
 Hochschule der Medien
 Nobelstraße 10
 70569 Stuttgart
 Tel. +49 711 8923 2749

 “It is possible to make a living making free software for freedom
 instead of closed-source proprietary malware for cops.”
 Jacob Appelbaum,
 
 http://dissenter.firedoglake.com/2012/12/28/jacob-appelbaum-on-resisting-the-surveillance-state/
 



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I think the issue is more a matter of ease of use and collaboration and it
is quite well known that Google Docs is great in that regard.
There's the design Hangouts minutes that document all the work done, and
maybe at the end of each release cycle the documents produced during that
release cycle could be rounded up?

I just don't think that bureaucratizing everything or trying to condition
on how people are doing their work is productive...

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 5:35 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure 
jbfa...@libreoffice.org wrote:

 Hi,

 [Please keep in mind that English is not my native language]

 Le 11/06/2015 16:59, Joel Madero a écrit :
 
 
  On 06/10/2015 11:18 PM, Jean-Baptiste Faure wrote:
 [...]
  And you will lost the complete history of the document. That is a very
  important information and it is a bad idea to rely on Google to keep the
  memory of the LibreOffice community. The data of the LibreOffice project
  must be stored on TDF servers not elsewhere. The working in progress
  documents are project data and must be stored on TDF servers.
  While I fully respect your opinion - this last statement is just not
  correct.

 It is very surprising for me when an organization, working on editing
 and managing documents, does not consider its own documents, which are
 its memory, important enough to be kept in its own repositories.
 And document history is as important as the final document. For example
 document history will show why or if some choice not present in the
 final document, has been discussed and rejected during the document
 development. Having the document history prevents to discuss again and
 again the same things.

  [...] your (and others) phobia of google products.

 The problem is not only Google, it would be the same with any comparable
 external supplier. The important word is external, not Google.

 That said, the doers get to decide.


 Best regards.
 JBF

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 exchanges over Internet will be scanned by French spying services.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Glad that you think so since that jewel has been thrown to my face multiple
times including by LO developers and even members of the design group
(although not recently).

On Thu, Jun 11, 2015 at 12:34 PM, Adolfo Jayme Barrientos 
f...@libreoffice.org wrote:

 2015-06-10 8:29 GMT-05:00 Pedro Rosmaninho mota.pr...@gmail.com:
  If other people don't contribute then their input is worth less.

 This jewel is pure bullshit.


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Re: [libreoffice-design] feedback on #91781

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

 From a trainer and migration consultant perspective, I see the mess and
 grief and productivity loss, along with interoperability issues caused
 by direct formatting.


​I see your point, but there are other types of users for LO. And
sabotaging their way of working in benefit of others isn't the best way to
accomplish it.


  Making the access to direct formatting more difficult would just draw
  people away from LO to closed source office suites.

 So the challenge - where the issues are about - is to make working with
 Styles more natural, visible. If that comes with the price of a _little_
 worse availability of direct formatting functions, I think that would be
 worth it. But maybe that isn't even needed, looking at the great focus
 of UX to make the best of LibreOffice
 ​.


​Well, I think that making working with Styles more natural and visible
isn't mutually exclusive with having great availability of direct
formatting options.
The Sidebar offers great potential to make working with Styles a lot more
intuitive than what it is now in its own section separated from direct
formatting. But I think that the Styles Sidebar pane needs serious rework
as most of the UI needed. ​
​The work done in 4.3 and 4.4 and in the future in 5.0 was enormous and of
great quality but if someone wants to make the use of Styles simpler then
it would be better to focus on making it better. That depends on the
contributors and there's still plenty of work to be done in so many areas.​



 ​

 Regards,
 Cor

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Improving Impress' UX

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Well, if most of the most active contributors are fine with using Google
Docs (or even considering it crucial for their organization) they should
use the tools they consider the best for doing their job.

If other people don't contribute then their input is worth less. If they
don't want to rely on Google Docs/services and move to other platforms then
they should contribute as much as those that use those services...

On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 10:52 PM, Joel Madero jmadero@gmail.com wrote:

 Just wanted to thank you Jay for doing the open invite. You're at the
 forefront of lots of cool innovative things in the project and it's good to
 see things moving forward :)

 Best,
 Joel

 On Tue, Jun 9, 2015 at 2:29 PM, Jay Philips ypha...@gmail.com wrote:

  On 06/08/2015 09:07 AM, Charles-H. Schulz wrote:
 
  Hello Jay,
 
 
  Hi Charles,
 
   Thank you for starting this. However I have a really big problem with
 the
  use
  of Google Docs. People may not want to subscribe nor to rely on Google
  services.
 
 
  Yes i've seen that some people prefer not to use google services and i
  would never force it onto people who make that choice, but they do not
 need
  to subscribe to google services to leave comments. They are also welcome
 to
  read the document and send their feedback to me by email or download the
  document and make track changes to it an email it to me.
 
   We have pads (http://pad.documentfoundation.org) and you can open
 
  one rather easily. As long as we will continue to use Google Docs many
  people
  simply won't contribute to our discussion.
 
 
  I've tried etherpad and unfortunately it doesnt have the features i need
  to get the job done. I look forward to when LOOL is launched, so i can
  shift over to that.
 
  Jay
 
 
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Breeze Icons

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

The Breeze icons that represent each of the modules of Libre Office
(Writer, Calc, Impress) should respect the Libre Office branding and
identity for those modules.
They are easily identifiable but they do not respect the LO identity and
should be Breeze representations of the current LO icons and not something
different.

On Wed, Apr 1, 2015 at 10:49 PM, Pedro pedl...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm not sure if this is the appropriate topic but the Breeze icons don't
 have
 enough contrast against the green bar in the Start Center.

 
 http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/file/n4145186/StartCenter_Galaxy_theme_selected.png
 

 Also, why are the Breeze icons always displayed in the Start Center,
 regardless of the icon Style selected (at least when using the x64 build
 under Windows 7 x64)? Even if you change Style, the next time you open
 LibreOffice the Start Center icons are using the Breeze style.



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: [libreoffice-projects] minutes of ESC call ...

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Writer:
- Implement Image crop tool similar to the one present in Impress,

Sidebar:
- Implement an Insert subcategory in the Properties tab of the Sidebar in
Writer/Calc/Excel,
- Implement a Data subcategory in the Properties tab of the Sidebar in
Calc,

General
- Allow to use different shapes in cropped images in Writer/Impress/Draw
(besides the rectangle) - similar to Google Docs.

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 9:47 AM, Noel Grandin noelgran...@gmail.com wrote:



 On 2015-02-01 02:05 PM, Michel Renon wrote:


 here are some ideas : if you think some might be interesting, tell me and
 I'll make some specs/ux design


 Those are some very good ideas! Even if they don't make the GSOC, they
 should probably be logged in bugzilla.


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] New templates contest

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Will this involve new templates for Impress? Because Impress is severely
lacking in the template department...
Maybe we could send the call in  e-mails to certain design groups involved
with Linux to come with new templates (Numix, Mokka, Elementary, VDG...).

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 11:42 AM, Jan Holesovsky ke...@collabora.com
wrote:

 Hi K-J,

 K-J LibreOffice píše v Ne 14. 12. 2014 v 18:57 +0100:

   2) what categories do we define
  
   Authors of the templates propose the category, we'll then define the
   final categories according to the templates that arrive :-)
 
  Should we define some rules? E.g. branding or so?
  Specified rules should be adhered to. So every template which brokes the
  rules should not be voted on.

 Nope - we want to unleash the creativity :-) - and let's see what do we
 get...

   3) who decides/votes
  
   The Design team at one of the weekly hangouts.  The decision process
   will be simple - for each template that arrives, either a general
   consensus on the given template, or it is not included for 4.4.0 (and
   can be re-evaluated for later inclusion).
  
   I had thought we would make it really inclusive (i.e. inviting everyone
   to vote); is it not desirable?
 
  I don't think that it is a good and community friendly choice to vote at
  one of the weekly hangouts. I'm e.g. not able to attend.

 Please see my other mail (to Charles) for explanation.  This is not to
 exclude anybody, but to be able to decide in the short time we have.

  The last big vote (4.0 branding) was (on my opinion) a real desaster: A
  hurry-up voting and discussing at Google+, stopped by BoD, after that
  voted at google docs (). The winning object broke the defined and
  branding rules (which is up to now not solved in a good way).

 I believe an overall branding is something completely different than
 this - for the default branding, a larger consensus is necessary, and
 needs the marketing people involved, indeed.

 But there will be more templates (we are not talking about the default
 template you get when you start Writer) that you can choose from, so the
 only criteria is that they are not offensive, and they are not utterly
 ugly (and we can increasingly improve them too).

   4) deadline and scheduling.
  
   Needs to happen in time for RC2 (beginning of January), so that there
   is still chance to do changes for RC3.  Of course, if any good
   templates arrive later, they'll be still appreciated, and can be
   included in later versions (4.4.x).
 
  I don't think that we have to hurry so. We shouldn't do it.

 So far the problem that we have no templates included was completely
 hidden by the terrible user experience to start document with a
 template; so there were little complaining about the lack of the
 templates.

 This is not the case any more with the new 4.4 feature that was a result
 of GSoC - now we have the [Templates] button right in the start center,
 and showing an empty list is much worse than showing 2-3 templates
 there; and yes, I do hope that we'll get at least 2-3 good templates
 even on the short notice :-)

 Definitely we can (and should!) do more for 4.4.1 - but we should at
 least attempt to get as much as possible already for 4.4.0.

 Hope this makes some sense - and as explained in the other mail, don't
 worry, your voice will be heard :-)  Also I hope that you'll find some
 time to design a template or two too, would be awesome to have something
 from you.

 All the best,
 Kendy


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Re: [libreoffice-marketing] Re: [libreoffice-design] New templates contest

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Heiko Tietze is also active in the VDG group so I guess he can contact
them. And in the VDG community there are people involved with Nitrux.
As for getting into contact with them directly I would just contact them by
G+ or something, I don't have direct contact with any of them personally.

Maybe we could make the contest with categories for each module and not
only Writer?

On Mon, Dec 15, 2014 at 12:03 PM, Jan Holesovsky ke...@collabora.com
wrote:

 Hi Pedro,

 Pedro Rosmaninho píše v Po 15. 12. 2014 v 11:47 +:

  Will this involve new templates for Impress? Because Impress is
  severely lacking in the template department...

 At the moment, I am most concerned about the Writer templates - because
 we have none :-)  But of course, if we get some Calc or Impress
 templates too, that will be awesome.

  Maybe we could send the call in  e-mails to certain design groups
  involved with Linux to come with new templates (Numix, Mokka,
  Elementary, VDG...).

 Sure, great idea!  Please do you have contacts to these groups?  I guess
 better to talk to some people there first before we 'spam' them?

 All the best,
 Kendy




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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Finding a Purpose

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

To make complex office tasks easy to everyone - concise, short and to the
point. Love that Daniel!


On Sat, Jul 26, 2014 at 7:52 AM, Daniel Hulse simplecontr...@gmail.com
wrote:

 One thing I can think of that would be important to defining this purpose
 is
 audience. Who is LibreOffice for? Sure, anyone can use if if they want, but
 who are we targeting? LibreOffice is used by students, businesses, and
 governments, but that's not really helpful in terms of design. One insight
 that might be helpful is the fact that many of the people who use office
 software aren't very good at using and understanding computers--they know
 how to check their email, use a web browser, and do some things in their
 office software, but that's it--they aren't very good at changing settings
 or preferences, learning how to use new programs, or installing software.
 These people have to be taken into account, because if something is
 understandable to them, then it should be understandable to everyone--they
 are the lowest common denominator.
 At the same time, people should be able to use LibreoOffice for real
 work--we shouldn't be getting rid of advanced functionality in terms of
 what
 can be done with the programs, because often LibreOffice is the easiest
 tool
 that can be used for that task (for example, it is much easier to make an
 ANOVA table in Calc than it is to learn R to make one)

 I suppose, taking this into account, the purpose of LibreOffice would be,
 broadly, To make complex tasks easy for everyone. At the same time,
 LibreOffice isn't and probably shouldn't be in the business of making web
 browsers, file managers, or 3d modeling tools. So what kind of tasks is
 LibreOffice meant to perform? Creating and editing documents is one
 (Writer,
 Impress, Math, Draw), and organizing and analyzing data is another (Calc,
 Base)--fairly general tasks that need to be done in a variety of settings
 and workplaces. Documents, presentations, spreadsheets, and the like are
 used everywhere for a variety of purposes, so we can't get too specific
 with
 the purpose, either.

 I suppose that would make the purpose of LibreOffice something like: To
 make work easy for everyone, by providing an easy-to-use set of tools for
 making documents and presentations and for organizing and editing data.

 Then again, thinking this is making me question why we bundle up each of
 the
 modules and call it LibreOffice. Sure, it's good to have tools that work
 well together, but doing so in our case seems to rob the project of a clear
 focus. Then again, this is how people expect to get their office software,
 and it would be impractical for LibreOffice to not be this way, since this
 project is seen as a drop-in replacement to Microsoft Office.

 -Daniel



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Revisiting our project workflow

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

And why not both?

Get a forum for constant idea discussion, and for outside people to chip
in, give their opinion and even atract new blood and use redmine to
structure projects when these are decided to move forward.

And not wanting to use an external ID as a reason is a really poor one.
Don't you have accounts in any forum or message board besides this one?


On Thu, Jul 24, 2014 at 12:22 PM, K-J LibreOffice k...@libreoffice.org
wrote:

 Am 23.07.2014 um 16:58 schrieb Mirek M.:

  I agree that a forum is probably more fitting for design discussions
 (especially if it allows attachments), provides more privacy (your e-mail
 address isn't pubilc), and I have to admit I would've been more
 comfortable
 with a forum when I first joined the mailing list.

 That said, we shouldn't spread out our internal conversations over too
 many
 channels, so if we agree to go with a forum, we'd need to let go of our
 mailing list. We'd also need the Document Foundation to host our forum.

 Would everybody here agree to move to a forum if TDF agreed to host it?


 I don't think that we can easily change our workflow to a forum and leave
 the ml for the design project. It should be a general decision by the BoD
 because all projects should work in one way.
 And I personally won't work in a forum because there is no profit for me
 against now. But many disadvantages:
 - no sheduling AFAIK
 - up to now you need an external Open ID which I don't want to use
 - what about archiving and finding?
 - How to get a message that something new is in there as long as I'm not
 directly involved?

 IMHO we will get the biggiest advance by a redmine project. There we can
 ticketing, sheduling, archiving, linking, assigning, observing, etc.
 I requested a design project in redmine as supposed [1] [2].

 [1] https://redmine.documentfoundation.org/issues/571
 [2] http://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/design/msg06696.html

 Give Redmine a try.


  We
 should discuss this on our IRC chat this week.


 I'm not able to be within the IRC on sunday.

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Revisiting our project workflow

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Agree with Stuart, waiting for devs to start the process would severely
limit the work. Why not have the designers brainstorm and come up with
creative solutions even if no dev is present at the beginning.
It would allow for more creativity and cooperation between designers and
even if something fails to atract dev interest it will still result in the
designers better knowing each other, cooperating and in the fostering of a
creative atmosphere.


On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 1:18 PM, V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu
wrote:

 Mirek, *,

 Regards para 1): why would there need to be a developer already in
 agreement
 to start the process?  It would be nice if one, or more, were already on
 board, but much of the argument for implementation actually comes from
 fleshing out the details of what the enhancement should be.

 Admittedly  a developer's understanding of the structure of the program and
 cross platform implementation early in the process improves feasibility of
 implementation and can provide reasonable  bounds to the design. But,
 waiting for developers to appear and take an interest otherwise stifles
 design.

 On the other hand, if there is a reasonable flow of good designs from the
 Design process that result in implementation then that flow becomes the
 norm.  More developers will check-in to see what needs to be worked on,
 and I'd expect that a fair number would actually make design contributions.
 As is now many do their own design work while implementing their code.

 Stuart



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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: Revisiting our project workflow

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

That makes sense Mirek. Thanks for clearing the reasoning behind the need
for devs!

However, I would suggest creating an area where designers could share
designs and discussions between themselves under the LO umbrella and not
spread around Deviantart or their user pages.
Maybe a LO design forum where designers could discuss with each others and
maybe even get some devs to take a peek at it?


On Tue, Jul 8, 2014 at 11:32 PM, Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Stuart, Pedro,

 2014-07-08 14:18 GMT+02:00 V Stuart Foote vstuart.fo...@utsa.edu:

 Mirek, *,

 Regards para 1): why would there need to be a developer already in
 agreement
 to start the process?  It would be nice if one, or more, were already on
 board, but much of the argument for implementation actually comes from
 fleshing out the details of what the enhancement should be.

 Admittedly  a developer's understanding of the structure of the program
 and
 cross platform implementation early in the process improves feasibility of
 implementation and can provide reasonable  bounds to the design. But,
 waiting for developers to appear and take an interest otherwise stifles
 design.

 On the other hand, if there is a reasonable flow of good designs from the
 Design process that result in implementation then that flow becomes the
 norm.  More developers will check-in to see what needs to be worked on,
 and I'd expect that a fair number would actually make design
 contributions.
 As is now many do their own design work while implementing their code.


 That was my original thought too.
 However, working without a dev hasn't worked out for us at all.
 Let me give some examples:
 * The design of the template dialog was dramatically different from the
 proposed design because of a lack of designer/developer communication (and
 I'm mostly to fault there). Things like drag-and-drop to create a folder,
 design for a single-level hierarchy, a stack switcher-like widget,
 single-click-based design, etc. were scrapped mostly because of technical
 reasons and that resulted in design problems and a sub-par experience.
 * There have been several attempts to design the color picker, but they
 haven't been brought to a conclusion. The struggle there was that there was
 no way of telling how it would be implemented -- would the current picker
 evolve through a series of easy hacks? would it be written from scratch?
 would LibreOffice support themes by the time it was worked on?
 * The original Android Remote's coverflow-like slide view moved too
 quickly. If the dev and the designer worked hand-in-hand, the physics of
 the switching slides would be adjusted to a more comfortable speed.

 2014-07-08 15:45 GMT+02:00 Pedro Rosmaninho mota.pr...@gmail.com:

 Agree with Stuart, waiting for devs to start the process would severely
 limit the work. Why not have the designers brainstorm and come up with
 creative solutions even if no dev is present at the beginning.


 There's no restriction on brainstorming for designers, but whiteboards
 aren't a place for those. Designers can post their ideas on their user
 pages or on networks like DeviantArt.

 Whiteboards should be designed with implementation in mind, and that
 requires dev cooperation.

 It would allow for more creativity and cooperation between designers and
 even if something fails to atract dev interest it will still result in the
 designers better knowing each other, cooperating and in the fostering of a
 creative atmosphere.


 There are a number of things that designers can work on that would have
 dev support or that don't require dev support (e.g. working on icon sets,
 reporting and bringing attention to design bugs, ...).

 There's still room for mockups and prototypes without dev backing, but
 that should be left to user pages and DeviantArt.


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Re: [libreoffice-design] Finding a Purpose

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

I think that is a comendable effort but I think that it would be more
effective to define what is the purpose of each module individually. What
is it aimed at, so that UI design and dev work can be more focused in
improving the work torwards that purpose for each module.
Then also define a priority of what modules need to be improved first to
adjust to their defined purpose.


On Thu, Jul 3, 2014 at 8:09 AM, Charles-H. Schulz 
charles.sch...@documentfoundation.org wrote:

 Hello Mirek,

 On 3 juillet 2014 00:43:19 CEST, Mirek M. maz...@gmail.com wrote:
 Hi everyone,
 Recently, we've been talking about our workflow and, as part of that,
 we
 came to the conclusion that we need to define a clear direction. The
 best
 way to do that, IMHO, is defining a clear purpose for LibreOffice and
 its
 components and continually striving to fulfill that purpose as well as
 possible.
 
 In our last IRC chat [1], Reda Lazri proposed a 21st century suite
 that is
 easy for new users and powerful for existing ones.
 
 My original thought was that LibreOffice was too disparate to have a
 clear
 purpose and wanted to define purposes for individual modules only.
 However,
 since that time, I've come around to the idea of having a single
 purpose
 for LibreOffice, and here's a rough draft I propose: to let the user
 organize information and help them present it to others in a digestible
 manner.
 
 I should clarify that these are all just rough drafts, and that even
 when
 this team decides on a purpose, it won't be binding. The idea here is
 to
 not force a direction on devs and rather let the defined purposes stand
 based on their merit.
 
 I should also note that the goal derived from a purpose is basically to
 provide the best user experience for fulfilling that purpose -- that
 means
 things like ease of use, speed, great visual and interaction design,
 etc.
 are all a given.
 
 Post your thoughts on the purpose of LibreOffice in this thread and
 hopefully we'll come to a firm conclusion at the next IRC meeting [2].

 I must admit I am unsure why you need to define a purpose now, however we
 did come up with pretty much your line 4 years ago albeit in a mpre elegant
 way: LibreOffice strives to be the engine of your creation and the tool of
 your intelligence. Note however that a purpose is not the same as a
 slogan. The latter changes often.

 Cheers,

 Charles.




 
 [1] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings/2014-06-29
 [2] https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Design/Meetings
 
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: The Sidebar Problem

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

After reading the last previous posts, especially the ones by Teo91 it's
quite easy to recognize that indeed there's a lack of LO developer interest
in coding UI improvements. Which is a shame since LO is one of the
open-source projects with more involved devs.

Nevertheless, I think that that issue is due to the fact that untill
recently the devs had to focus on improving the quality of the code,
porting the dialogs to GTK3, etc - including the Sidebar.
Instead of discussing about axing the Sidebar and cutting down UI options
and affecting the workflow of people who came to rely on it (when I use LO
I use the Sidebar so it would affect me).

Right now, after all the work that has been done on LO, it is the proper
time for the design team to try to increase the interest of devs in
improving the UI, something that has been discouraged untill now because
there were so many other things higher on the priority list. However, many
of those items higher on the priority list have been solved so reflecting
and coding UI improvements is a reasonable prospect.

There's no lack of interest on improving the UI as you can see by the
numerous UI mock-ups for LO in DeviantArt. However, usually those are too
radical.

What the team here could focus on is:
- Coming up with UI mock-ups and ideas on how to improve the Sidebar
(Daniel Hulse ideas are great),
- Show those ideas to a few developers to pique their interest,
- Spread the word around that work in improving the Sidebar is taking place
and that there's interest in drawing in devs to work on UI improvements in
LO through Google+, blogs, etc,
- Maybe hint that there would be a new default UI based on the work done by
the LO dev community instead of relying on the recycled look of Open Offic
​e. Why isn't the work done by the LO devs and team being used as the
default when it comes to the UI? Wouldn't the design team be proud if code
based on your mock-ups would be the default of LO (ex. why isn't the Sifr
icon set the default LO icon set)?​


​However, don't think that I am promoting radical changes in workflow. I am
not. I am talking about improving on what's already available on LO right
now - the Sidebar - and turning it on by default in all the components of
LO. But also keeping the toolbars as an option to the people that don't
feel the need to better use the horizontal space of their displays instead
of the vertical.


On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 5:02 PM, Rodolfo rodolf...@gmail.com wrote:

 Teo,

 They are/were not converting the dialogs to GTK+ toolkit. They are
 just using the Glade dialog layout file format to easier mantainance
 and layout edition. =) They will still, AFAIK, stick into VCL, as it
 can have backends of differents
 widgets toolkit in order to appear native dialogs.

 Regards.

 2014-05-01 6:29 GMT-03:00 Teo91 mcavaller...@gmail.com:
  No more, not in the upcoming future:
  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/WidgetLayout/FindDialogs
  Over 84% of current dialogs have been converted to the new .ui format who
  rely on GTK+3 toolkit.
  When complete, the plans are (as far as I know):
 --snip--
  - finally port main windows to GTK+3
 --snip--
  The good news is that the sidebar is indeed a dialog docked on the side
 and
  already converted to GTK since LO 4.2

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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: The Sidebar Problem

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

Did you even read my previous messages?
I never suggested a massive UI or workflow change so don't go assuming that
I did. Go read my messages here before please.




On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 2:31 PM, Sean White runicpala...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Thu, May 1, 2014 at 7:29 PM, Teo91 mcavaller...@gmail.com wrote:

  Sean White wrote
   Just look at what happened to MSOffice after Ribbon.  Leaving aside the
   arguments of
   whether it did indeed change things for their better, it undeniably
   changed
   them dramatically.  This resulted in lots of hate from people that were
   force to change their work flow.
 
  That's not the sidebar case: as discussed upper, the idea is provide an
  (almost) complete UI aside the existing one,
  potentially avoiding any menu browsing. Potentially.
  Don't like the sidebar? It's a click away, close it and will disappear as
  never existed.
  Don't like classic UI? Close toolbars and use the sidebar.
  Ribbon affected users workflow because they had no choice: Take this and
  shut up - MS said.
  We are *not* doing something similar.
 


 I think you misunderstood my intent.  My point was to pedro's seeming
 suggestion of a massive UI change, or at the very least an abrupt workflow
 change.  It's didn't work terribly well when microssoft did it becuase it
 DID change peoples workflows too much.  Regardless of personaly feelings of
 productivity, massive workflow changes on major products aren't generally a
 good thing as MSOffice, Windows 8 and Gnome have all demonstrated.  From
 experiences with this mailing list I have a feeling that this is always
 going to be a major reason why people won't go with a complete redesign
 right off the bat, more a gradual shift towards a design/mockup goal.



 
 
  Sean White wrote
   LibreOffice uses it's own internal toolkit with a custom selection of
 UI
   elements thus any
   massive UI change would require the writing of new UI elements into the
   toolkit and
   probably the rewritting of a fair ammount of old ones
 
  No more, not in the upcoming future:
  https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/WidgetLayout/FindDialogs
  Over 84% of current dialogs have been converted to the new .ui format who
  rely on GTK+3 toolkit.
  When complete, the plans are (as far as I know):
  - convert toolkit used by exstensions
  - get rid of hundreds of .rsc files (a .po-like old format used for
  translation)
  - finally port main windows to GTK+3
 
  There isn't an arrival date, but forget LO own toolkit in the future, it
  will be no more a limitation for a UI change :)
 
  The good news is that the sidebar is indeed a dialog docked on the side
 and
  already converted to GTK since LO 4.2
  A potential developers doesn't need to learn a weird old technology,
  neither
  extending it with new elements.
 
  A sidebar improvement still require time and hard work, but it's notably
  simpler now.
  Another good reason why this is the right way to finally enhance LO
 visual
  experience.



 I'll admit that I have been out of the Libreoffice loop lately so this is
 both new and exciting.  The custom toolkit always struck me a barrier of
 entry to any prospective new contributors. I hope the rest of the
 conversion goes well then.


 
 
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Re: [libreoffice-design] Re: The Sidebar Problem

[Pedro Rosmaninho]

The mock-ups posted by Evil Overlord are very nice. But if there's no real
discussion or interest in this board to improve the LibreOffice UI then
this won't change in the near future.
And with the discussion mostly focusing on portraying the Sidebar as a
problem instead of a potential way to kickstart an UI evolution I guess
real changes are very far away.

It's a shame that the members of the LibreOffice UI team have no interest
in improving the UI because right now, a lot of other open-source projects
(such as Gnome, KDE, Elementary, Cinnamon, etc, etc) are doing great
innovations in design and UI/UX and LibreOffice as one of the most
prominent open-source projects is completely stagnant in that regard -
prefering to stick to an UI inspired by an outdated piece of closed source
software (Microsoft Office 2003).


On Sat, Apr 26, 2014 at 11:00 AM, Daniel Hulse simplecontr...@gmail.comwrote:

 Evil Overlord wrote
  Daniel,
 
  Your mockup looks okay, but I'm a little confused. You say that duplicate
  controls are bad, but you included duplicate direct formatting controls
 in
  your bottom toolbar. For me, the whole point is to shift controls to the
  sidebar, and avoid toolbars. I don't think there's any problem with
  duplicate controls, so long as it's clear they do the same thing.

 Those are not in fact duplicate controls. The bottom bar is direct
 formatting, while the sidebar is stylistic formatting. What that means is
 that all the controls shown on the right edit the current selected style,
 while the bottom bar formats the current selected area/where the cursor
 is--it's contextual, and does not edit the current style. That's why
 there's
 no option to choose the typeface or font size there (although you could if
 you pressed the more button which  I now see didn't make it into the
 mock-up) The idea is that this would make it incredibly simple to edit,
 define, and apply styles--instead of editing the current style by selecting
 a style from the stylist and looking through cumbersome dialogues that get
 in the way of the document. At the same time, editing options that are
 better done directly--that only have to do with individual words or parts
 of
 words--are preserved in the bottom bar.


 Evil Overlord wrote
  I don't think it would be unreasonable to have a default sidebar, but
 make
  it customizable so that those who wish to can put their own controls
 where
  they want them. Far better than trying to divine the correct placement of
  single controls would be to allow users to create the interface they're
  comfortable with; the tools I use most often won't be the ones you
 choose.
  Most software seems to have headed this way in recent years, and it's a
  good thing.

 Customization is /okay/, but my point is that it has to be limited so that
 it doesn't diverge too far from the actual design of the software--it needs
 to happen within constraints. For example, you could rearrange elements in
 individual sections of the sidebar, or add appropriate elements. You could
 add whatever buttons you want to the end of the standard toolbar--I for one
 like to be able enter a formula really quickly, but don't think that
 necessarily needs to be there for everyone. The idea is that the actual
 purpose of each part of each element of the ui should not be broken in
 customization. Meaningful customization is not about radically changing the
 layout and button placements, or arranging every button in the exact place
 you want it just for the fun of it--it's about getting to needed
 functionality quickly. It shouldn't be a substitute for learning how a
 piece
 of software works, and allowing customization should not take the place of
 designing something well in the first place.

 I'm not sure what you're talking about about customization in software
 becoming more common. If anything, the rise of mobile and web apps (which
 are rarely customizable) suggests otherwise.





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