Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hello Jonathan, Jonathon Blake wrote: Daniel wrote: I don't think so... you don't seem similar distinctions between all the variations of Spanish. I am well aware that Spanish spoken in one country can be unintelligible to somebody who learnt, and speaks Spanish spoken in another country. Eventually, the most of the NLPs will have to split along dialect/language boundaries. It is your vision, not mine. And besides, it is also pretty wrong and dangerous. Here in the NLC, we have to face two constant dangers: -walled gardens: projects that don't communicate with the others and are isolated -balkanization: what you describe. BTW: for French, it would almost be invisible. Ever asked to a Belgian or a French Canadian if he wants to break the francophonie? They won't because we're part of something unique that's called the francophone world, and nobody wants to split in little parts. Another important issue to consider is not dividing our volunteers too much. +1 And yet a third issue is that NLs are not intended to correspond to countries, but rather to linguistic groups. This is very important and true. A language is a dialect with an army behind it. I am sure our Armenian friends will appreciate these last words. Charles. xan jonathon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Louis, Ian, all, please, let's not restart an entire thread on this topic, who is right and who is wrong. There are many more urgent topics waiting in the NLC and outside the NLC. I'll soon try to speak with Ian, Ryan, Daniel, Louis, Jacqueline, on how we can make volunteers happier and more appreciated in the overall community of OOo; then, how can give all the chances to an EN NL project to succeed. Then, we will all be able to judge by the results accomplished by the EN project if it was worth it. Best, Charles. Louis Suarez-Potts wrote: hi I think it was agreed that one born out of frustration was not a good idea which is why there has been backing off. That does not mean that in principle an EN project is not needed for the reasons Charles and Sophie articulate. To me its simply a matter of symmetry and being seen to be even-handed with all native languages and as far as possible their cultural identity. No doubt there are lines to be drawn on that score but I wouldn't like to see a line drawn at the point of never ever having an EN project. Oh, I agree; an EN project is possible. I think there are some pragmatic issues to be dealt with, but those can be dealt with. As to the representative(s) being versed in the issues, there are actually three here: Sophie, Pavel (NLC), and Daniel (CCR). best Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hello Daniel, all, Daniel Carrera wrote: Jonathon Blake wrote: For English, regional groups make slightly more sense than one NLP --- if only because regional groups could handle translation into English better. I don't think so... you don't seem similar distinctions between all the variations of Spanish. And the differences I see between Spanish spoken in different countries is greater than that between Brits and Yanks. Another important issue to consider is not dividing our volunteers too much. There is an optimum region. Having too many people in a group is incredibly inefficient (I believe that some OOo lists suffer from this). But having too few is also ineffective. And yet a third issue is that NLs are not intended to correspond to countries, but rather to linguistic groups. I *like* that, and wouldn't want to lose it. I would not feel confortable on an American NL or an British NL. That just rubs the the wrong way. But I would be right at home at an English NL. +1. In the mean time, one of the missions of an English NL would be to provide localized builds for, say, US_EN, UK_EN, AU_EN, etc A north_american_regional_group would, by default, have to include, at a minimum, Spanish, and French. [French being an official language of Canada. Spanish being an official language in two states and the dominant language in five states of the united states. Indeed, you're right. Yet another problem with country/region groups (that's a fourth point). And a fifth point: Marketing already has MarCons that are divided based on regional boundaries. Yes. And never forget that the NLC and the Marketing project don't compete against each other, they work together. Charles. Cheers, - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hello, Hello, I have to say that I'm a little bit confused by all this. Even though I am in favor of an EN native-lang project, I'm afraid it would be created now for the bad reasons. It is not because the Marketing project pretendedly does a bad job that an EN project should be created. This community has rules and is coordinated in a way that can be criticized, but still in a way that has allowed us to survive and gain some significant market share since 4 years. It is not because some are frustrated that our community should divide itself into structural forks, like an EN NL project. I just cannot let this happen. We all know that we need more independence, more power and ressources to accomplish the purposes of OOo. We all know that we are going to live exciting and hazardous times because a foundation will have to be created, and that who will be inside it and who will invest in it is still not clear. This is why a project, and especially such an important project as an EN NL project, cannot be created out of frustration. This is why, although I usually don't do that, and that I hate to do this, I vote -1 for the EN NL project. Sorry, Charles-H. Schulz. I agree with Charles. Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
I agree with Charles. I too agree with Louis and Charlese. Pavel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
I too agree with Louis and Charlese. I contemplated the issue and the situation before making a decision. I vote -1 for the English Native Language project. Maybe not now but in the near future when we can form a united front for the English NL, anglophone :) Cheers, khirano - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hi all, Charles-H. Schulz wrote: Hello, I have to say that I'm a little bit confused by all this. Even though I am in favor of an EN native-lang project, I'm afraid it would be created now for the bad reasons. It is not because the Marketing project pretendedly does a bad job that an EN project should be created. This community has rules and is coordinated in a way that can be criticized, but still in a way that has allowed us to survive and gain some significant market share since 4 years. It is not because some are frustrated that our community should divide itself into structural forks, like an EN NL project. I just cannot let this happen. We all know that we need more independence, more power and ressources to accomplish the purposes of OOo. We all know that we are going to live exciting and hazardous times because a foundation will have to be created, and that who will be inside it and who will invest in it is still not clear. This is why a project, and especially such an important project as an EN NL project, cannot be created out of frustration. This is why, although I usually don't do that, and that I hate to do this, I vote -1 for the EN NL project. If I agree that an EN project should not be created out of frustration, however I think that what Ryan and Ian expressed has to be taken into consideration. I'm surprised that we say no to people offering time an energy to our community. I feel that this is not the concept of the NLC. I'm surprised that we say no without proposing anything else. Please don't see all this as a critic, but more interrogations. I feel that saying -1 doesn't give any answer to the strenght of community they asked for and the help they need to manage this community, even if I understand well that this could not be done in emergency and in response to a possible fork. Kind regards Sophie -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 266.3.0 - Release Date: 21/02/2005 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
I'm surprised that we say no to people offering time an energy to our community. No, certainly not. We want them to help inside marketing project for their marketing goals of EN, N-L project in QA project for their QA goals of EN N-L project etc. We certainly do not want to have two groups of people doing marketing in English language, one in global amrketing project and one in English N-L project. This is nonsense. Pavel - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Charles wrote: appease the tensions at first, Consider that the tensions are a result of not having an NLP in the first place. This question can be today answered in two ways: -an EN native-lang project (not created out of frustration or in a desire of going somewhere else) -regional groups of users. For English, regional groups make slightly more sense than one NLP --- if only because regional groups could handle translation into English better. [The difference between British English, and American English is a lot more than Boot/Bonnet. Likewise, the difference between South African and Australian English is much more than vocabulary. (A triple negative in American English is a very ambigious yes. A triple negative in South African English is an emphatic no.)] Mitigating against regional groups, is where English is spoken. It is a collapsing language in North America. That is where I think _most_ of the native English users live. A north_american_regional_group would, by default, have to include, at a minimum, Spanish, and French. [French being an official language of Canada. Spanish being an official language in two states and the dominant language in five states of the united states. [OOo 1.1.4 does not support Spanish (US) as a Locale. That should be fixed for 2.0.] xan jonathon - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Jonathon Blake wrote: For English, regional groups make slightly more sense than one NLP --- if only because regional groups could handle translation into English better. I don't think so... you don't seem similar distinctions between all the variations of Spanish. And the differences I see between Spanish spoken in different countries is greater than that between Brits and Yanks. Another important issue to consider is not dividing our volunteers too much. There is an optimum region. Having too many people in a group is incredibly inefficient (I believe that some OOo lists suffer from this). But having too few is also ineffective. And yet a third issue is that NLs are not intended to correspond to countries, but rather to linguistic groups. I *like* that, and wouldn't want to lose it. I would not feel confortable on an American NL or an British NL. That just rubs the the wrong way. But I would be right at home at an English NL. A north_american_regional_group would, by default, have to include, at a minimum, Spanish, and French. [French being an official language of Canada. Spanish being an official language in two states and the dominant language in five states of the united states. Indeed, you're right. Yet another problem with country/region groups (that's a fourth point). And a fifth point: Marketing already has MarCons that are divided based on regional boundaries. Cheers, -- Daniel Carrera | I don't want it perfect, Join OOoAuthors today! | I want it Tuesday. http://oooauthors.org | - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hi all, Daniel Carrera [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I concur. I think all four of us want (eventualy) an English NL project, and for the same reasons. We'll make it eventualy :-) Yes! Please add me to the all four. :) Cheers, khirano - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hi Sophie, If I agree that an EN project should not be created out of frustration, however I think that what Ryan and Ian expressed has to be taken into consideration. I'm surprised that we say no to people offering time an energy to our community. I feel that this is not the concept of the NLC. I'm surprised that we say no without proposing anything else. Please don't see all this as a critic, but more interrogations. I feel that saying -1 doesn't give any answer to the strenght of community they asked for and the help they need to manage this community, even if I understand well that this could not be done in emergency and in response to a possible fork. I was under the impression that we--I and others--actually proposed a bunch of solutions that seemed, to me, to be better. That is: To boost and promote the MarCon efforts, to develop more regional groups. I also think that having more effective communication is a good strategy. Would an EN project, especially one born of frustration accomplish this? Or would it rather do the opposite? Kind regards Sophie best Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hi Jonathon, A north_american_regional_group would, by default, have to include, at a minimum, Spanish, and French. [French being an official language of Canada. Spanish being an official language in two states and the dominant language in five states of the united states. Not really. You can have a user group/ marketing group with people who speak different languages included; or many such groups. I think what counts here is local effectiveness, and I don't think that to be effective everyone in a regional group must speak the same language. But let me also rephrase the issue. If there is frustration now with process then let's address it directly. Don't create a NLC project out of frustration. Do bring the frustration to the Community Council or to NLC leadership. (I think the CC is more pertinent here, but Charles and I differ; both are options.) [OOo 1.1.4 does not support Spanish (US) as a Locale. That should be fixed for 2.0.] xan jonathon best Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
On Thu, 2005-02-24 at 20:59, Louis Suarez-Potts wrote: Hi Jonathon, A north_american_regional_group would, by default, have to include, at a minimum, Spanish, and French. [French being an official language of Canada. Spanish being an official language in two states and the dominant language in five states of the united states. Not really. You can have a user group/ marketing group with people who speak different languages included; or many such groups. I think what counts here is local effectiveness, and I don't think that to be effective everyone in a regional group must speak the same language. But let me also rephrase the issue. If there is frustration now with process then let's address it directly. Don't create a NLC project out of frustration. Do bring the frustration to the Community Council or to NLC leadership. (I think the CC is more pertinent here, but Charles and I differ; both are options.) Well I believe our CC representative is well versed on the issue ;-) -- Ian Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
hi I think it was agreed that one born out of frustration was not a good idea which is why there has been backing off. That does not mean that in principle an EN project is not needed for the reasons Charles and Sophie articulate. To me its simply a matter of symmetry and being seen to be even-handed with all native languages and as far as possible their cultural identity. No doubt there are lines to be drawn on that score but I wouldn't like to see a line drawn at the point of never ever having an EN project. Oh, I agree; an EN project is possible. I think there are some pragmatic issues to be dealt with, but those can be dealt with. As to the representative(s) being versed in the issues, there are actually three here: Sophie, Pavel (NLC), and Daniel (CCR). best Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Louis wrote: It is mainly about localization; then about providing the user files for those localizations. If it is mainly about L10N, then the debate about forming an EN NLC is absurd. It should have been done _years_ ago. Questions: i) What group is _currently_ responsbile for providing localized versions of OOo in English? ii) What group _currently_ translates OOo into English? xan jonathon -- Want a Gmail account? send me a request. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hello, I have to say that I'm a little bit confused by all this. Even though I am in favor of an EN native-lang project, I'm afraid it would be created now for the bad reasons. It is not because the Marketing project pretendedly does a bad job that an EN project should be created. This community has rules and is coordinated in a way that can be criticized, but still in a way that has allowed us to survive and gain some significant market share since 4 years. It is not because some are frustrated that our community should divide itself into structural forks, like an EN NL project. I just cannot let this happen. We all know that we need more independence, more power and ressources to accomplish the purposes of OOo. We all know that we are going to live exciting and hazardous times because a foundation will have to be created, and that who will be inside it and who will invest in it is still not clear. This is why a project, and especially such an important project as an EN NL project, cannot be created out of frustration. This is why, although I usually don't do that, and that I hate to do this, I vote -1 for the EN NL project. Sorry, Charles-H. Schulz. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hi, /me the top-poster returns I wonder, If we had EN NL project setup, from where I should collect the documentations to translate? Where will I find the marketing materials I need to translate for the Romanian NLC project (which I see it it a common example here :-) )? Will I have to subscribe to the @en.openoffice.org lists too ? Will I need to add extra paragraphs for Romanian contributors telling them that they should also look into the http://en.openoffice.org pages or mailing lists archives, perhaps there they will find what they look for ? If any documentation or guide or marketing material is ever produced by the EN NL project, will it be automatically committed to the MP repository or Documentation repository too ? I ask because Romanian NLC is used to look for materials in English to translate. If the ENglish language efforts for producing marketing materials move from say, the MP to the new EN NL, then, what good ? Also, if EN NL splits this information between many places I think it will be worse. Not better. Also, user support: what could be the purpose of a [EMAIL PROTECTED] list ? I cannot see anything except to answer questions like: Hey, is there somebody in (say)London who can come to my boss and tell him that OOo is better than M$FT ? ALL other questions from users SHOULD be on the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list. Otherwise, where should I send users who do not find response inside the Ro project ? I cannot tell them to read two lists for same purpose. Cristian John McCreesh wrote: Daniel Carrera wrote: John McCreesh wrote: Exactly. The model we propose for the Marketing Project and NL-Projects is equally applicable to any project. The core project works in the English language and acts as a clearing house / repository of best practice / co-ordination point etc for worldwide project activity - see the diagram at the bottom of http://ooosmp.homelinux.org/GoalsandObjectives/MarketingProject Why make it harder for English? The MP doesn't organize conferences for Romania, or design flyers for Japanese (since you brought up the example of MP). Why should it treat English differently? I think there should be an English project that can focus on grassroots efforts for English. Separate from the global things that happen at MP. If someone wants to act as a focus for marketing activity in a specific market (which could be a geography, or an industry, or...) then that's what MarCons (Marketing Contacts) do, Organising a conference is a good example. The (English) flyers designed for OOo 1.x were widely translated. Equally, if an NL-project produced some good case studies, I would hope they would provide an English translation for the central library which could then be translated on into other languages. I think it's counter productive to mix together global tasks, and local ones. They are different, and should go through different purposes. For example, it might make sense to have a community-wide vote on the SMP, or the OOo logo, or any global marketing strategy. But it doesn't make sense to have a similar process for a conference in Spain. If you had such a system, it would be totally unefficient. This is what's happening with English right now. You have a system that might make sense for designing a global brand image, and then apply it for tasks that aren't global. The slowness and the bureocracy of the MP project might be acceptable when designing a global task, but they are a real hinderance when you apply it to anything that is done in English. I don't see why English should get the short end of the stick like this. From a marketing perspective, I am delighted whenever activists pop up and offer to organise local conferences or do any other marketing activities etc. regardless of their linguistic affiliations. This is why we developed the MarCon role, to give flexibility. Note that there is a clear distinction between what Marketing Project leads do and MarCons do - see http://ooosmp.homelinux.org/GoalsandObjectives/MarketingProject Anyone who wants to contribute to marketing activities in a market in which they have specialist knowledge - please become a MarCon. Anyone who wants to try and help pull the whole thing together, please, please offer your services as a project lead :-) John - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Cristian DRIGA -- www.openoffice.org ro.openoffice.org marketing.openoffice.org/art/ - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Christian wrote: I wonder, If we had EN NL project setup, from where I should collect the documentations to translate? _IF_, and that is an incredibly big if, things were done right, you'd get them from documentation.openoffice.org. That page _should_, but does not have links to documentation in all the languages that documentation for OOo is written in. Where will I find the marketing materials marketing.openoffice.org again _should_ but does not have links to marketing material in all the languages that OOo is marketed in. I Will I have to subscribe to the @en.openoffice.org lists too With an EN NLP, then lists mike [EMAIL PROTECTED] could focus on global marketing efforts, whilst [EMAIL PROTECTED] could focus on marketing in english speaking countries. committed to the MP repository or Documentation repository too ? Linked to, not committed to. Creation of an EN NLP will require some major changes in how things are organized. Done correctly, it will be make things better all around. [How long will take you to find the user's guide for OOo, that is written in Afrikaans?] producing marketing materials move from say, the MP to the new EN NL, then, what good ? Done properly, they will find material in languages other than English to translate. Material that might be better/more suitable to translate.[At least one users guide for OOo was a translation.] Also, user support: what could be the purpose of a [EMAIL PROTECTED] list? Rename users@openoffice.org to [EMAIL PROTECTED] Otherwise, where should I send users who do not find response inside the Ro project ? And the reason that [EMAIL PROTECTED] will have an answer, that [EMAIL PROTECTED] do not, is based upon what? xan jonathon -- Want a Gmail account? send me a request. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hi Ryan, Hi * Ryan Singer wrote: Daniel said it. The reason for a NL-EN is to provide grassroot support and implementation for the global strategy in EN locales. Other native-langs are very busy organizing and implementing local projects to a degree that just doesn't happen in english speaking countries, mostly because we use the same lists for global strategy and local implementation. The reason for a NL-EN project is so that there can be a place for talk about the best way to spread openoffice.org throughout english speaking countries that is more specialized than the place where we talk about global strategy.-R Despite the good reasons posted here, I feel like Vitor and Louis. I wonder if the proposed EN_NL is not too global in and of itselfI mean how do you coordinate local, grassroots activities on a single EN-NL list for Australia, Ireland, England and Cananda, for example? Separate lists for each region (Aus/NZ, UK, Ireland, North America, etc for example) would sound more efficient. To not duplicate (or deplete) the already excellent discussion and user forums going on in English, the regional groups could be specifically for planning conferences/events, marketing activities, maintaining dictionaries for those locales, providing speakers and material specific to those regions. That way, people who live in one region can avoid a flood of mail that does not relate to their region or particular variation of English. I admit that I would appreciate it if the planning of regional conferences were no longer on the Marketing.dev list so that I don't have to keep deleting mail irrelevant to me and my regions of choice. At the same time, it is easier to gather feedback and thoughts that help me do my job better if the number of English mailing lists does not rise. I consider the current English lists the places where I get feedback on the English version of OOo, so I try to follow discussions there. Likewise with the German .dev .marketing and .users lists for the German version of OOo. On this same note, a single EN-NL that incorporates all variations of English would drive be batty because I only have time to take care of US-American English. BTW, was the suggestion discussed on the regular English lists? An opinion poll there might be handy. My 2 c, Elizabeth - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Sophie Gautier wrote: French is also global. It convers countries in Europe, Africa, Latin America and one Canadian province. You forget Lebanese community ;) Cool! :-) I don't know how the French team deals with this issue. I guess you can have sub-lists for that: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] no, we should avoid those distinctions. Marketing contacts are here for that purpose and could use a dedicated project list for that. This is not difficult to put flags in your message when you have to organize something in one region or another and several in the same time. Ok. I see your point. The NL is really not about geographical location. That's one of the beautiful things about it and we should keep it that way. You could subscribe to [EMAIL PROTECTED] only :-) no, this is definitly not a good idea and all what we have tried to avoid with native-lang project, MarCon are here for that. Geographical representation is really not the purpose. I see your point completely. I'm convinced. :-) The fact that NL is not based on political boundaries is great, and we should aim to maintain and encourage that. I feel as you that a home for the EN project would be a good idea. I feel also that you should define more your community. If we speak about MP, what should be different ? your material, your flyers ? Is it because you feel that a NL project has more liberty in his project and can answer more directly to his members ? Yes. That's now I feel. As for flyers and material, it would be good to separate global marketing material from grassroots work. I think that not having this is part of why so many people are so frustrated in the English lists. I'll illustrate: If an NL project (e.g. Romanian NL) decided to make a business card, you wouldn't see the huge argument that happened on marketing just now. People would realize that it is just a local, grassroots thing. But in En it was different: * Most people were thinking this is a small, little project, let's do it. * A few people were thinking this is a marketing plan for the entire world community. Inevitably, a major argument came out. Having an English NL would make it clear if something is a major course change for all OOo, or if it's just something small a couple of guys decided to do. And they would be treated different (they should be treated different). Cheers, -- Daniel Carrera | I don't want it perfect, Join OOoAuthors today! | I want it Tuesday. http://oooauthors.org | - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
On Thu, 2005-02-17 at 22:42, Sophie Gautier wrote: I feel as you that a home for the EN project would be a good idea. I feel also that you should define more your community. Language is part of culture. Without a N-L English project we are saying that either the English culture simply dominates the whole project so a specific cultural language base is not needed or that English as a culture is not represented because the main project is supposed to be culturally neutral and just happens to be in English. If we speak about MP, what should be different ? your material, your flyers ? Is it because you feel that a NL project has more liberty in his project and can answer more directly to his members ? It could be seen as dividing effort or it could be seen as a natural evolution to draw more effort in as the project grows. It really depends on your perspective. Freedom and motivation are good. -- Ian Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Louis Suarez-Potts wrote: Culture and empathy? hmm. It's nice that is a side effect, but the purpose of the NLC has really little to do with culture though it can help with empathy: As Charles and Sophie have said, the purpose of the NLC has changed over time, as the project has evolved and circunstances has changed. Today, the NLC is the international representation of the grass roots community. Can you give me a scenario in which having an EN NLC can help? See my other posts. I've answered this question at length. Cheers, -- Daniel Carrera | I don't want it perfect, Join OOoAuthors today! | I want it Tuesday. http://oooauthors.org | - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
On Fri, 2005-02-18 at 05:30, Louis Suarez-Potts wrote: Hi Ok. I see your point. The NL is really not about geographical location. That's one of the beautiful things about it and we should keep it that way. Its about culture and empathy. These qualities drive motivation. Anything that increases motivation has to be good for the project. Culture and empathy? hmm. It's nice that is a side effect, but the purpose of the NLC has really little to do with culture though it can help with empathy: NLC projects were created in part to empower otherwise disenfranchised language communities. If you don't take into account the emotional dimension as well as the rational, you are missing much. I would guess Sophie would see having a Fr N-L project as more than an administrative convenience. Us Brits tend to be desensitised to the cultural significance of language - perhaps all English native speakers suffer from this. An NLC project can increase and coordinate motivation--which is why I'm not strictly opposed to an EN NLC; just finding it hard to conceive of how it would work with the existing projects. Can you give me a scenario in which having an EN NLC can help? I can think of instances where having an NLC for any other language does help, as those languages are not otherwise represented in OOo. But for English? It would provide a focus for those that want an EN NLC. Its really as simple as that. Given the nature of the community, its not really possible to dictate to individuals what they should or shouldn't do in any case. This is a great strength in many respects, but also a problem when trying to manage things along classic corporate lines. But under-estimate the power of emotion in motivation at your peril ;-) -- Ian Lynch [EMAIL PROTECTED] ZMS Ltd - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hi Louis and all, Can you give me a scenario in which having an EN NLC can help? We have the scenario already. We have the best-practices by francophone and germanophone projects and others. Why not an anglophone project can do the same as francophone, germanophone and other projects? Cheers, khirano - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hello Louis, Ryan, Ian, Daniel, all, On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 12:38 -0800, Louis Suarez-Potts wrote: Hello Ryan, Thanks for the proposal. Native-Lang project: English Project code:en Project level: Level II Project lead:Ryan Singer Project co-lead: Ian Lynch This is a proposal to start an English Native-Lang Project. This NL project is intended to cover all variations of English. That is, it is not specific to either US or British English, or any other variant. Okay... I have some questions below. This is a very good and much-awaited move. An English NL project would also help lower the disparity between projects. Right now the OOo project is roughly divided into English and everyone else. An English NL project is a first step towards, eventually, having all languages on the same level, with English as a modular part of the whole, like every other language. Ryan, another very important part of any native-lang project is the users support in their native-langage. The EN project should be committed to this task too. Put another way, you seem to say in the first breath that English has a privileged spot, and it does. Development ideas are discussed in English, and many marketing ideas are also discussed in English. But those discussions are in English so that all understand. If we all spoke French as a second language, they'd be in French. An EN project, however, would have discussions only in English and focus for marketing on those regions where English is the native language. (But even in this, it could get interesting, as the general popularity of English blurs the distinction between native and official.) In the second breath, it seems as if anglophone work suffers because it lacks the committed focus or is doing too much (not sure which obtains here). I think having an EN project could work. But my concern is simply this: That the existing functional dominance of English would be strengthened by an NLC for English, unless it were clear that: * MP represents the entire project, all languages. * Other global projects, though they have discussions in English, also represent the entire project, eg, Documentation, tech projects, etc. * As work is already being done in English for Documentation, presumably the focus of this EN project would be what, regarding Documentation, at least? Would the EN project organize anglophone documentation writers? * EN (NLC EN) marketing efforts execute MP directives while also allowing the creation of local endeavors, such as FR has. In short, these provisions seek to make clear that NLC EN is not privileged and that though discussions in the global projects are in English they are not ipso facto part of any EN project. I agree with all the provisions described by Louis; I would add the following concerning the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list; it should not (and isn't) an EN NL list. It's just the central users support list. even though, I believe we should go forward. +1 for the EN native-lang project Regards, Charles-H. Schulz. Best Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Creating an En NL users list should not be difficult although I understand it might be a bit confusing to a newcomer to the project. OTOH, reducing the traffic on the general Users list would be a benefit. I generally agree with the point that the En NL project should not be seen as just general project activities under a different name that use En as the medium . It should be there as a matter of consistency so that En does not have an assumed and more priviledged position rather than the other way round. --- Charles-H.Schulz [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: From: Charles-H.Schulz [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Wed, 16 Feb 2005 10:29:53 +0100 To: dev@native-lang.openoffice.org Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang Hello Louis, Ryan, Ian, Daniel, all, On Tue, 2005-02-15 at 12:38 -0800, Louis Suarez-Potts wrote: Hello Ryan, Thanks for the proposal. Native-Lang project: English Project code:en Project level: Level II Project lead:Ryan Singer Project co-lead: Ian Lynch This is a proposal to start an English Native-Lang Project. This NL project is intended to cover all variations of English. That is, it is not specific to either US or British English, or any other variant. Okay... I have some questions below. This is a very good and much-awaited move. An English NL project would also help lower the disparity between projects. Right now the OOo project is roughly divided into English and everyone else. An English NL project is a first step towards, eventually, having all languages on the same level, with English as a modular part of the whole, like every other language. Ryan, another very important part of any native-lang project is the users support in their native-langage. The EN project should be committed to this task too. Put another way, you seem to say in the first breath that English has a privileged spot, and it does. Development ideas are discussed in English, and many marketing ideas are also discussed in English. But those discussions are in English so that all understand. If we all spoke French as a second language, they'd be in French. An EN project, however, would have discussions only in English and focus for marketing on those regions where English is the native language. (But even in this, it could get interesting, as the general popularity of English blurs the distinction between native and official.) In the second breath, it seems as if anglophone work suffers because it lacks the committed focus or is doing too much (not sure which obtains here). I think having an EN project could work. But my concern is simply this: That the existing functional dominance of English would be strengthened by an NLC for English, unless it were clear that: * MP represents the entire project, all languages. * Other global projects, though they have discussions in English, also represent the entire project, eg, Documentation, tech projects, etc. * As work is already being done in English for Documentation, presumably the focus of this EN project would be what, regarding Documentation, at least? Would the EN project organize anglophone documentation writers? * EN (NLC EN) marketing efforts execute MP directives while also allowing the creation of local endeavors, such as FR has. In short, these provisions seek to make clear that NLC EN is not privileged and that though discussions in the global projects are in English they are not ipso facto part of any EN project. I agree with all the provisions described by Louis; I would add the following concerning the [EMAIL PROTECTED] list; it should not (and isn't) an EN NL list. It's just the central users support list. even though, I believe we should go forward. +1 for the EN native-lang project Regards, Charles-H. Schulz. Best Louis - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hello Ian, it sounds good to me. Could you please give me your username and the one of Ryan? I'll file an issue and Louis will take on from there for the ssh keys and the domain name set up. Regards, Charles. On Wed, 2005-02-16 at 06:40 -0800, Ian wrote: Creating an En NL users list should not be difficult although I understand it might be a bit confusing to a newcomer to the project. OTOH, reducing the traffic on the general Users list would be a benefit. I generally agree with the point that the En NL project should not be seen as just general project activities under a different name that use En as the medium . It should be there as a matter of consistency so that En does not have an assumed and more priviledged position rather than the other way round. - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [native-lang] EN Native-Lang
Hi all, Charles-H.Schulz wrote: Vitor, see my comments inline. +1 for all your comments Charles. That will not be an easy task for Ian and Ryan to place the frontier between all that, but if you need help, just ask :) Kind regards Sophie -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.300 / Virus Database: 265.8.8 - Release Date: 14/02/2005 - To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] For additional commands, e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
