Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Hi, Charles Marcus wrote on 2010-10-20 22.33: *That* is TOTALLY RIDICULOUS, and is the reason*why* there are so many complaints about unsubscribing. I'm sorry to say, but for those who cannot work with mailing lists, we will set-up a forum. It is not possible to fulfill all wishes. I see there is room for improvements, but if people are not able to actually send one e-mail and read a few lines on how the process works in the autoreply, I don't know if we can do much about it. Don't get me wrong - I'm all for making people's life easier, but for me, there is a certain limit at which people also need to think themselves... That being said, I hope we can soon provide a web interface for subscription handling, to make things a bit easier. Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 2010-10-20 5:05 PM, Jon Hawkins wrote: > This unsubscribe/confirm procedure is basically the same procedure > someone used when they subscribed, If the link at the bottom of the email was an actual unsubscribe link instead of the info link, I'd agree... The info link should be second, and the unsubscribe link should be right there in the email footer. That would save 5 clicks right there. > and the same procedure countless other mailing lists use, so I don't > know why anyone would find it mysterious. I find it simpler than, for > example, HTMLized buttons in an email (which the user would wonder > what they actually do) or going to a website. Reasonable people > differ on this, no doubt. I don't think it is unreasonable - but the vast number of people who have a problem with it should make it clear that it should always be made as simple as possible, and adding 5 clicks to the process is not what I'd call making it simpler. -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 10/20/2010 01:33 PM, Charles Marcus wrote: On 2010-10-20 4:16 PM, Jon Hamkins wrote: On 10/20/2010 11:59 AM, Charles Marcus wrote: I have little sympathy for anyone not being able to unsubscribe if they aren't willing to actually read the first 12 words (!) of the message coming back from discuss+help. It's not rocket science. You send an unsubscribe request, and then you confirm it. And the links are pre-made to do it, so it's really just two mouse clicks. This set up is the same as for thousands of other mailing lists, and I honestly don't know how it could get any simpler. Two clicks!?!? You obviously haven't tested that theory... Are you suggesting I unsubscribe? :) You're right, I didn't count the clicks to navigate around in the mail client, I counted only the two mailto links that one would click when they get the message back from discuss+help with the instructions. I don't consider this onerous. This unsubscribe/confirm procedure is basically the same procedure someone used when they subscribed, and the same procedure countless other mailing lists use, so I don't know why anyone would find it mysterious. I find it simpler than, for example, HTMLized buttons in an email (which the user would wonder what they actually do) or going to a website. Reasonable people differ on this, no doubt. Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 2010-10-20 4:16 PM, Jon Hamkins wrote: > On 10/20/2010 11:59 AM, Charles Marcus wrote: >> That is not instructions on how to unsubscribe, that is instructions on >> how to send a message to get a 'help' response that will include >> instructions on how to unsubscribe (*and* subscribe, and a bunch of >> other stuff), and because it is so long, many people will simply not >> read it (I do user support for 60+ users in our office, I know how users >> are). At least the unsub instructions are first, but still... > I have little sympathy for anyone not being able to unsubscribe if they > aren't willing to actually read the first 12 words (!) of the message > coming back from discuss+help. It's not rocket science. You send an > unsubscribe request, and then you confirm it. And the links are > pre-made to do it, so it's really just two mouse clicks. This set up is > the same as for thousands of other mailing lists, and I honestly don't > know how it could get any simpler. Two clicks!?!? You obviously haven't tested that theory... The link at the bottom of these messages is *not* an unsubscribe link. If it were, we wouldn't be having this discussion. It is not 2 clicks, it is more like 11: 1. Click the 'discuss+help' link to compose a message to 'discuss+help' 2. Click 'Send' 3. Click 'Get new mail' in your email client (maybe more than once), or wait for your clients polling cycle 4. Click/select the newly received info message 5. Read the instructions 6. Click the 'discuss+unsubscribe' link in the info email to compose a new message to 'discuss+unsubscribe' 7. Click 'Send' 8. Click 'Get new mail' in your mail client (maybe more than once), or wait for your clients polling cycle 9. Click/select the newly received confirmation message 10. Click the 'Reply' button 11. Click 'Send' *That* is TOTALLY RIDICULOUS, and is the reason *why* there are so many complaints about unsubscribing. -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Hi, On 10/20/2010 11:59 AM, Charles Marcus wrote: That is not instructions on how to unsubscribe, that is instructions on how to send a message to get a 'help' response that will include instructions on how to unsubscribe (*and* subscribe, and a bunch of other stuff), and because it is so long, many people will simply not read it (I do user support for 60+ users in our office, I know how users are). At least the unsub instructions are first, but still... I have little sympathy for anyone not being able to unsubscribe if they aren't willing to actually read the first 12 words (!) of the message coming back from discuss+help. It's not rocket science. You send an unsubscribe request, and then you confirm it. And the links are pre-made to do it, so it's really just two mouse clicks. This set up is the same as for thousands of other mailing lists, and I honestly don't know how it could get any simpler. What about a single-question-mail? A User clicks this button on the website and he/she gets just his own thread about this one question no others. In this mail included are two buttons in the kind of: ~ "thanks, my question is answered" ~ "I need more information" After clicking the first button (question answered), this user is eliminated in the list and gets no further mails. With the second button the thread continues. Johannes -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 10/20/2010 11:59 AM, Charles Marcus wrote: That is not instructions on how to unsubscribe, that is instructions on how to send a message to get a 'help' response that will include instructions on how to unsubscribe (*and* subscribe, and a bunch of other stuff), and because it is so long, many people will simply not read it (I do user support for 60+ users in our office, I know how users are). At least the unsub instructions are first, but still... I have little sympathy for anyone not being able to unsubscribe if they aren't willing to actually read the first 12 words (!) of the message coming back from discuss+help. It's not rocket science. You send an unsubscribe request, and then you confirm it. And the links are pre-made to do it, so it's really just two mouse clicks. This set up is the same as for thousands of other mailing lists, and I honestly don't know how it could get any simpler. Jon -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 2010-10-20 2:59 PM, Charles Marcus wrote: > ACTION REQUIRED: Unsubscribe confirmation Better: ACTION REQUIRED: you MUST reply to this message to confirm your unsubscribe request -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 2010-10-20 2:24 PM, Marc Paré wrote: > Le 2010-10-20 11:25, Howard Barr a écrit : >> On 20/10/2010 04:02, � wrote: >>> looking for instructions on how to unsubscribe > The instructions are at the bottom of all emails. Look at the bottom of > this email below. That is not instructions on how to unsubscribe, that is instructions on how to send a message to get a 'help' response that will include instructions on how to unsubscribe (*and* subscribe, and a bunch of other stuff), and because it is so long, many people will simply not read it (I do user support for 60+ users in our office, I know how users are). At least the unsub instructions are first, but still... Then, after hopefully reading the instructions, they have to send *another* email to unsubscribe, *then* they have to send *another* email (*Reply to the confirmation email - which is the step that most of the people yelling about not being able to unsubscribe miss). Talk about jumping through hoops... Maybe the subject of the confirmation email could be something that stands out more, like: ACTION REQUIRED: Unsubscribe confirmation Also - it would make much more sense to just have a clickable link that the user only has to click on to complete the unsub process, rather than require them to send another email. Lastly - the lines at the footer are way too long imho. Why not something like this: "To unsubscribe, send a blank email to: discuss+unsubscr...@documentfoundation.org NOTE: You will receive a confirmation email that you MUST REPLY TO in order to complete your request List archives are available at: http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ For a list of all of the commands available for this list, send a blank email to: discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org NOTE: All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted." Anyway, I'm about talked out on this subject... -- Best regards, Charles -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Le 2010-10-20 11:25, Howard Barr a écrit : On 20/10/2010 04:02, � wrote: looking for instructions on how to unsubscribe Hi Howard The instructions are at the bottom of all emails. Look at the bottom of this email below. Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 20/10/2010 04:02, � wrote: looking for instructions on how to unsubscribe -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Hi, I agree with Manfred here (I'll try to translate his points) ;) 2010/10/20 Manfred Usselmann : > On Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:58:07 -0400 > Marc Paré wrote: > >> Le 2010-10-19 20:53, Drew Jensen a écrit : >> > On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 09:37 +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: >> > >> > Howdy Jean-Christophe, >> > >> >> On 20 oct. 10, at 04:02, Marc Paré wrote: >> >> [...] >> > >> Es por eso que yo digo que no pieso que podria hacerlo sin muchos >> problemas. No pienos que los otros los gustaran trabajar como eso. > > Keine Ahnung, was das heisst? Ich denke, die Mischung verschiedener > Sprachen in einem Diskussionsstrang macht überhaupt keinen Sinn und > führt letztendlich nur zu Verwirrung und Chaos. [start translation] No idea what this means. I think, the mixing of different languages in one discussion thread doesn't make sense and results in confusion and chaos. > Englisch sollte die Hauptsprache auf der Liste bleiben, weil es einfach > am praktikabelsten ist. Anderssprachige Beiträge, falls ausnahmsweise > notwendig, sollten übersetzt und die Diskussion auf der entsprechenden > Sprachliste fortgesetzt werden. Gibt es die nicht, sollte sie entweder > angelegt werden, wenn häufiger Beiträge in der Sprache zu erwarten sind, > oder ausnahmsweise der ganze Diskussionsfaden in der Sprache gehalten > werden und die Sprache im Betreff genannt werden, so dass man weiss, > dass man den Thread komplett überlesen kann, wenn man diese Sprache > nicht beherscht. English should stay (?) as the main language of the list because it is the most practicable solution. Messages in other languages (if needed, but should be the exception), should be translated and the discussion should take place in the appropriate language list. If this list does not exist it should be either created if you expect more messages in that language, or as exception keep the whole thread in this language. In this case you should mention the language in the topic, so that people who don't know the language can skip this thread. ([end translation] I think Manfred has valid points and I agree with him. Sigrid -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Le 2010-10-20 03:55, Manfred Usselmann a écrit : Keine Ahnung, was das heisst? Ich denke, die Mischung verschiedener Sprachen in einem Diskussionsstrang macht überhaupt keinen Sinn und führt letztendlich nur zu Verwirrung und Chaos. Englisch sollte die Hauptsprache auf der Liste bleiben, weil es einfach am praktikabelsten ist. Anderssprachige Beiträge, falls ausnahmsweise notwendig, sollten übersetzt und die Diskussion auf der entsprechenden Sprachliste fortgesetzt werden. Gibt es die nicht, sollte sie entweder angelegt werden, wenn häufiger Beiträge in der Sprache zu erwarten sind, oder ausnahmsweise der ganze Diskussionsfaden in der Sprache gehalten werden und die Sprache im Betreff genannt werden, so dass man weiss, dass man den Thread komplett überlesen kann, wenn man diese Sprache nicht beherscht. Beste Grüße, Manfred Thanks Manfred. I agree with this. Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On Tue, 19 Oct 2010 20:58:07 -0400 Marc Paré wrote: > Le 2010-10-19 20:53, Drew Jensen a écrit : > > On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 09:37 +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: > > > > Howdy Jean-Christophe, > > > >> On 20 oct. 10, at 04:02, Marc Paré wrote: > >> > >>> Hmmm... then, the fact remains that a multilingual mailist model > >>> will always be difficult to accomplish. The amount of energy > >>> spent on translating from one language to another would certainly > >>> affect the overall effectiveness of the group. Satisfying > >>> everyone will be difficult. > >> > >> Ce genre de liste existe. Mais ce n'est absolument pas le propos. > > > > You mean this list then? Perhaps, because actually it does not have > > a language designator. > > > >> > >> Le propos c'est d'identifier les listes qui demandent l'anglais > >> comme langue de travail comme telles. Et de laisser la porte > >> ouverte aux autres langues pour les listes qui ne sont pas > >> identifiées linguistiquement. > > > > Ah - well from the stand point of accepting any post, sure - but in > > reality I doubt it would work too well if one spoke in Francais, > > one in Chinese and another in Polish - but it would be interesting.. > > > > I have heard some stories form folks trying that in groups > > distributed between so many places, as ours is. If I recall > > correctly those experiences where not a great success. > > > >> > >> Je ne vois pas ce qui est difficile à mettre en place. > > > Es por eso que yo digo que no pieso que podria hacerlo sin muchos > problemas. No pienos que los otros los gustaran trabajar como eso. Keine Ahnung, was das heisst? Ich denke, die Mischung verschiedener Sprachen in einem Diskussionsstrang macht überhaupt keinen Sinn und führt letztendlich nur zu Verwirrung und Chaos. Englisch sollte die Hauptsprache auf der Liste bleiben, weil es einfach am praktikabelsten ist. Anderssprachige Beiträge, falls ausnahmsweise notwendig, sollten übersetzt und die Diskussion auf der entsprechenden Sprachliste fortgesetzt werden. Gibt es die nicht, sollte sie entweder angelegt werden, wenn häufiger Beiträge in der Sprache zu erwarten sind, oder ausnahmsweise der ganze Diskussionsfaden in der Sprache gehalten werden und die Sprache im Betreff genannt werden, so dass man weiss, dass man den Thread komplett überlesen kann, wenn man diese Sprache nicht beherscht. Beste Grüße, Manfred -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Le 2010-10-19 11:21, jonathon a écrit : On 10/19/2010 09:25 AM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: There is no need for a "global" user list and the "global" discussion list should not be a mere "discussion" list but a "policy" list Global lists should be multi-lingual. Use it for support or discussion, or marketing for languages or regions that don't yet have a dedicated list. Also use them for global issues. If somebody wants to post support questions in toki pona, or Enochian or Klingon on the general global support list, let them do so. # There is a certain irony in having a multilingual product name, but a requirement that the global list be monolingual. jonathon True. But at the same time, people who write questions in Arhamaic should not expect to receive too many answers. Besides, with a list that is set in ISO-8859-1 rather than in UTF-8, there is a limit to the number of languages that may be displayed reliably. -- Michel Gagnon Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Le 2010-10-19 21:10, Marc Paré a écrit : Hmmm... then, the fact remains that a multilingual mailist model will always be difficult to accomplish. The amount of energy spent on translating from one language to another would certainly affect the overall effectiveness of the group. Satisfying everyone will be difficult. I would suggest trying to build and maintain a robust reporting model from the localised groups to the respective mailists. Adding the complexity of language translation (as well as cultural idiosyncrasies) in the mix IMHO would not be productive. As much as I would love to see a universal list in all languages, I agree with you that common lists using English as the lingua franca are probably what works best. Obviously, we should accept without any complaint that some people whose English is not to par might post in other languages, but the aim should not to have 200 translations of each and every message. In an ideal world, international lists would be in Esperanto, but I doubt many list members would understand anything. Actually, I think the pitfall to avoid is that problems specific to the English version or with English-language marketing should be posted to their respective regional or linguistic lists and not on the worldwide lists. U.S. and U.K. are two regions, just like France and Spain. -- Michel Gagnon Montréal (Québec, Canada) -- http://mgagnon.net -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Le 2010-10-19 20:58, Marc Paré a écrit : Le 2010-10-19 20:53, Drew Jensen a écrit : On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 09:37 +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: Howdy Jean-Christophe, On 20 oct. 10, at 04:02, Marc Paré wrote: Hmmm... then, the fact remains that a multilingual mailist model will always be difficult to accomplish. The amount of energy spent on translating from one language to another would certainly affect the overall effectiveness of the group. Satisfying everyone will be difficult. Ce genre de liste existe. Mais ce n'est absolument pas le propos. You mean this list then? Perhaps, because actually it does not have a language designator. Le propos c'est d'identifier les listes qui demandent l'anglais comme langue de travail comme telles. Et de laisser la porte ouverte aux autres langues pour les listes qui ne sont pas identifiées linguistiquement. Ah - well from the stand point of accepting any post, sure - but in reality I doubt it would work too well if one spoke in Francais, one in Chinese and another in Polish - but it would be interesting.. I have heard some stories form folks trying that in groups distributed between so many places, as ours is. If I recall correctly those experiences where not a great success. Je ne vois pas ce qui est difficile à mettre en place. Adios, Drew Es por eso que yo digo que no pieso que podria hacerlo sin muchos problemas. No pienos que los otros los gustaran trabajar como eso. Gracias. Marc Paré So obviously, to make the point, and disregarding all of my spelling errors in Spanish, I really don't think that such a mailist would prove a good working environment. It would really turn the mailist into an exercise in evaluating each other's prowess in language translation. It would not be a focussed approach to problem solving; community building or distro building. I would suggest trying to build and maintain a robust reporting model from the localised groups to the respective mailists. Adding the complexity of language translation (as well as cultural idiosyncrasies) in the mix IMHO would not be productive. Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Le 2010-10-19 20:53, Drew Jensen a écrit : On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 09:37 +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: Howdy Jean-Christophe, On 20 oct. 10, at 04:02, Marc Paré wrote: Hmmm... then, the fact remains that a multilingual mailist model will always be difficult to accomplish. The amount of energy spent on translating from one language to another would certainly affect the overall effectiveness of the group. Satisfying everyone will be difficult. Ce genre de liste existe. Mais ce n'est absolument pas le propos. You mean this list then? Perhaps, because actually it does not have a language designator. Le propos c'est d'identifier les listes qui demandent l'anglais comme langue de travail comme telles. Et de laisser la porte ouverte aux autres langues pour les listes qui ne sont pas identifiées linguistiquement. Ah - well from the stand point of accepting any post, sure - but in reality I doubt it would work too well if one spoke in Francais, one in Chinese and another in Polish - but it would be interesting.. I have heard some stories form folks trying that in groups distributed between so many places, as ours is. If I recall correctly those experiences where not a great success. Je ne vois pas ce qui est difficile à mettre en place. Adios, Drew Es por eso que yo digo que no pieso que podria hacerlo sin muchos problemas. No pienos que los otros los gustaran trabajar como eso. Gracias. Marc Paré -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On Wed, 2010-10-20 at 09:37 +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: Howdy Jean-Christophe, > On 20 oct. 10, at 04:02, Marc Paré wrote: > > > Hmmm... then, the fact remains that a multilingual mailist model will > > always be difficult to accomplish. The amount of energy spent on > > translating from one language to another would certainly affect the overall > > effectiveness of the group. Satisfying everyone will be difficult. > > Ce genre de liste existe. Mais ce n'est absolument pas le propos. You mean this list then? Perhaps, because actually it does not have a language designator. > > Le propos c'est d'identifier les listes qui demandent l'anglais comme langue > de travail comme telles. > Et de laisser la porte ouverte aux autres langues pour les listes qui ne sont > pas identifiées linguistiquement. Ah - well from the stand point of accepting any post, sure - but in reality I doubt it would work too well if one spoke in Francais, one in Chinese and another in Polish - but it would be interesting.. I have heard some stories form folks trying that in groups distributed between so many places, as ours is. If I recall correctly those experiences where not a great success. > > Je ne vois pas ce qui est difficile à mettre en place. Adios, Drew -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 20 oct. 10, at 04:02, Marc Paré wrote: > Hmmm... then, the fact remains that a multilingual mailist model will always > be difficult to accomplish. The amount of energy spent on translating from > one language to another would certainly affect the overall effectiveness of > the group. Satisfying everyone will be difficult. Ce genre de liste existe. Mais ce n'est absolument pas le propos. Le propos c'est d'identifier les listes qui demandent l'anglais comme langue de travail comme telles. Et de laisser la porte ouverte aux autres langues pour les listes qui ne sont pas identifiées linguistiquement. Je ne vois pas ce qui est difficile à mettre en place. Jean-Christophe Helary fun: http://mac4translators.blogspot.com work: http://www.doublet.jp (ja/en > fr) tweets: http://twitter.com/brandelune -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Le 2010-10-19 11:17, Jean-Christophe Helary a écrit : On 20 oct. 10, at 00:05, Marc Paré wrote: I was under the impression that we were all in agreement, that the "lingua franca" of the mailists is English and that localized mailists were to encourage users to contribute in their own language. I think that is a mistaken view of the issues at hand. There should be English specific lists so that English speakers can contribute in English to whatever issue they have. We need to have strict formal equality between linguistic communities for the TDF/LibO to be really based on a democratic process. Then, there should be global lists where global discussions take place. Such lists would obviously gather a less important number of involved people and could be a place where multilingual information is exchanged. Sanitizing everything through English when most contributors are not English natives is not a realistic approach. Therefore, we should then make sure that information/issues from the localized mailists is passed on to the main English mailist through either the mailist moderator or some ambassador/spokesperson to the localized mailists to assure the flow of information to the SC or appropriate decision making group. This is totally unrealistic and reduces the contribution of non English speakers to the filter of their spokeperson when no filtering takes place for English speakers. Maybe we should work on improving the process of the reporting of localized groups' concerns to the main English mailists. No. The problem is to ensure that there is a good signal/noise ratio on supposedly global lists and whatever S/N ratio on language specific lists. We do not have to reproduce the English based corporate structure of Sun/Oracle in TDF. This is a thing of the past. Jean-Christophe Helary fun: http://mac4translators.blogspot.com work: http://www.doublet.jp (ja/en> fr) tweets: http://twitter.com/brandelune Hmmm... then, the fact remains that a multilingual mailist model will always be difficult to accomplish. The amount of energy spent on translating from one language to another would certainly affect the overall effectiveness of the group. Satisfying everyone will be difficult. Using one's common sense, using a language that is common to all groups should be the defining factor here. The english language fits all of the requirements of a unifying, common language. You only need to look at larger international groups where if they meet the common communication language is English -- UN and its affiliates etc. Yes they do provide translation but the language by default for all their organisation is the English language (lingua franca). Trying to satisfy every language possible on earth in discussion groups, IMHO is unrealistic. Unfortunately, the reality of the situation, is, that for any large international group, the participating members need to find a working language to make their organisation work at its best. At this point in time, it is English. Maybe in the future is will be Cantonese. It is all a matter of convenience. BTW ... my mother tongue is French (Canadian) Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 10/19/2010 09:25 AM, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: > There is no need for a "global" user list and the "global" discussion list > should not be a mere "discussion" list but a "policy" list Global lists should be multi-lingual. Use it for support or discussion, or marketing for languages or regions that don't yet have a dedicated list. Also use them for global issues. If somebody wants to post support questions in toki pona, or Enochian or Klingon on the general global support list, let them do so. If a group of Nama or Herero want to discuss the feasibility of an l10n team, use the global discuss list, with their communication in that language. If they decide it is feasable, then create the appropriate lists for them. # There is a certain irony in having a multilingual product name, but a requirement that the global list be monolingual. jonathon -- No human will see non-list, non-bulk, non-junk email sent to this address. It all gets forwarded to /dev/null -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 20 oct. 10, at 00:05, Marc Paré wrote: > I was under the impression that we were all in agreement, that the "lingua > franca" of the mailists is English and that localized mailists were to > encourage users to contribute in their own language. I think that is a mistaken view of the issues at hand. There should be English specific lists so that English speakers can contribute in English to whatever issue they have. We need to have strict formal equality between linguistic communities for the TDF/LibO to be really based on a democratic process. Then, there should be global lists where global discussions take place. Such lists would obviously gather a less important number of involved people and could be a place where multilingual information is exchanged. Sanitizing everything through English when most contributors are not English natives is not a realistic approach. > Therefore, we should then make sure that information/issues from the > localized mailists is passed on to the main English mailist through either > the mailist moderator or some ambassador/spokesperson to the localized > mailists to assure the flow of information to the SC or appropriate decision > making group. This is totally unrealistic and reduces the contribution of non English speakers to the filter of their spokeperson when no filtering takes place for English speakers. > Maybe we should work on improving the process of the reporting of localized > groups' concerns to the main English mailists. No. The problem is to ensure that there is a good signal/noise ratio on supposedly global lists and whatever S/N ratio on language specific lists. We do not have to reproduce the English based corporate structure of Sun/Oracle in TDF. This is a thing of the past. Jean-Christophe Helary fun: http://mac4translators.blogspot.com work: http://www.doublet.jp (ja/en > fr) tweets: http://twitter.com/brandelune -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Le 2010-10-18 20:22, Jean-Christophe Helary a écrit : I would like to propose that unlike what existed under Sun and Oracle, the linguistic communities _including_ the English speaking community, are all identified by a specific language marker and that all the lists that do not use that language marker are explicitly multilingual. The status quo under Sun and Oracle came from the fact that both Sun and Oracle were American based and mostly English speaking structures but we have no reason to reproduce that in the TDF. That basically means that: All the English speaking lists are @en.libreoffice.org And that all the lists @libreoffice.org are multilingual. This is the only way to ensure that no linguistic community has more power in the decision process than any other which is a basic requirement for all democratic process. There are enough multilingual people in the respective communities to ensure that the communication gap is bridged in all those lists. I was under the impression that we were all in agreement, that the "lingua franca" of the mailists is English and that localized mailists were to encourage users to contribute in their own language. Therefore, we should then make sure that information/issues from the localized mailists is passed on to the main English mailist through either the mailist moderator or some ambassador/spokesperson to the localized mailists to assure the flow of information to the SC or appropriate decision making group. Maybe we should work on improving the process of the reporting of localized groups' concerns to the main English mailists. Having a multi-lingual approach to the mailist, IMHO, would not be an effective way of running the LibO project. Having to translate and interpret cultural idiosyncrasies would be far more difficult and confusing than having to deal solely with English as the default language of communication between groups. I can well imagine that, if you consider the various cultural/language backgrounds of SC members, we could also ask that SC members at least try to frequent mailists that are compatible with their mother-tongue or language comprehension. For example, if an member of the SC is from German background, then this SC member could easily frequent the German localized groups and participate in their discussions as well as help to report back to the main English mailists of any concerns from the German groups. Therefore, the localized groups would have the following to help with the flow of any concerns to the main English mailist: 1. An ambassador/spokesperson would make sure that the flow of information/concerns of localized groups would be taken up in the main English mailists. These ambassadors could also report back, perhaps on a monthly basis, or the topics of conversations that were taken up in their localized groups during the month. 2 SC members lurking/participating in their native localized group mailist could also take part in reporting back to the main English mailists of any information/concerns of their respective localized group. The main responsibility would however be shouldered by the ambassadors/spokespersons of the localized groups. These people would be the backbone of the reporting process of the localized groups. Marc -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On Tue, 2010-10-19 at 18:25 +0900, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote: > On 19 oct. 10, at 18:15, Florian Effenberger wrote: > > > Hi, > > > > Jean-Christophe Helary wrote on 2010-10-19 02.22: > the "global" discussion list should not be a mere "discussion" list but a > "policy" list where only items of global interest regarding TDF or LO are > discussed. Not sure I totally agree that it should be the discuss list - but I do agree that it is a problem - even now with only two language discuss lists one needs to go between both to understand what is actually being discussed and worked on. I would not even insist this list of record if you will has to be in English - although it probably would be. The CMS discussion is an example - that should be happening in one place so people have a chance to keep up. Actually this may not be a language issue at all, and for this narrow subject - a list of record - it may simply be that after settling on what a voting membership looks like, then this is simply a list with moderated functions - the world may see what goes on, but only voting members discuss and it is the only place to discuss issues that span all the different groups in the foundation, linguistic or geographic or special interest based. In fact it is most likely to determine who will be in the voting membership from the current active people and use a list now, without the background noise to make the decisions we need to address now. Drew -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 19 oct. 10, at 23:13, Cor Nouws wrote: >>> Joining the global users lists, gives the largest public, so more >>> knowledge / international exchange. I find that useful in some >>> cases. >> >> That works only for people who understand English. So it is not >> global by definition. > > That is true, so a us...@en.documentfoundation.org would show that difference. Definitely. And disc...@en.libreoffice.org too. > Mind that common is (was?) that there is for example > an users@.documentfoundation.org > as well as > a marketing or a dev@.documentfoundation.org. > The place where people in a certain language area work together. > > For English that obviously does not work, and for Spanish and maybe more > languages too. > Therefore, we already see a list for a local/regional group in the US (iirc). Indeed. But that is beside the point I am making. _ALL_ lists should be identified by the language they use. Unless the lists are clearly and exclusively about global policy issues, in which case they should _theorically_ be multilingual (ie not explicitly refuse contributions because some list members do not understand the language of the post). Jean-Christophe Helary fun: http://mac4translators.blogspot.com work: http://www.doublet.jp (ja/en > fr) tweets: http://twitter.com/brandelune -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Hi Jean-Christophe, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote (19-10-10 14:10) On 19 oct. 10, at 19:35, Cor Nouws wrote: In any case, the current "global" lists are not global, they are English lists and should be identified as such. They are handling global items, as I see it. I do not mind if some people post there in a language that I do not understand (and there are many) but then I cannot join nor help. Some others would. That is not what you intend I think? What I suggest is that lists where the language is English are identified by a @en.libreoffice.org. Call them global or whatever you want, but identify them with a @en.libreoffice.org. There is no need for a "global" user list Joining the global users lists, gives the largest public, so more knowledge / international exchange. I find that useful in some cases. That works only for people who understand English. So it is not global by definition. That is true, so a us...@en.documentfoundation.org would show that difference. Mind that common is (was?) that there is for example an users@.documentfoundation.org as well as a marketing or a dev@.documentfoundation.org. The place where people in a certain language area work together. For English that obviously does not work, and for Spanish and maybe more languages too. Therefore, we already see a list for a local/regional group in the US (iirc). So this discussion more or less fits in that space? regards, Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - - ideas/remarks for the community council? See http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 19 oct. 10, at 19:35, Cor Nouws wrote: >> In any case, the current "global" lists are not global, they are >> English lists and should be identified as such. > > They are handling global items, as I see it. > I do not mind if some people post there in a language that I do not > understand (and there are many) but then I cannot join nor help. Some others would. > That is not what you intend I think? What I suggest is that lists where the language is English are identified by a @en.libreoffice.org. Call them global or whatever you want, but identify them with a @en.libreoffice.org. >> There is no need for a "global" user list > > Joining the global users lists, gives the largest public, so more knowledge / > international exchange. I find that useful in some cases. That works only for people who understand English. So it is not global by definition. Jean-Christophe Helary fun: http://mac4translators.blogspot.com work: http://www.doublet.jp (ja/en > fr) tweets: http://twitter.com/brandelune -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Hi Jean-Christophe, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote (19-10-10 11:25) On 19 oct. 10, at 18:15, Florian Effenberger wrote: Jean-Christophe Helary wrote on 2010-10-19 02.22: I would like to propose that unlike what existed under Sun and Oracle, the linguistic communities _including_ the English speaking community, are all identified by a specific language marker and that all the lists that do not use that language marker are explicitly multilingual. I would not suggest doing so. This simply leads to chaos. Certainly not. The reason why is that most people would still use English as the communication language. In any case, the current "global" lists are not global, they are English lists and should be identified as such. They are handling global items, as I see it. I do not mind if some people post there in a language that I do not understand (and there are many) but then I cannot join nor help. That is not what you intend I think? There is no need for a "global" user list Joining the global users lists, gives the largest public, so more knowledge / international exchange. I find that useful in some cases. and the "global" discussion list should not be a mere "discussion" list but a "policy" list where only items of global interest regarding TDF or LO are discussed. As you might have seen, we're currently setting up more local(ized) mailing lists, which will also help in reducing the traffic on this main discussion list. Ok, then create a few @en.libreoffice.org lists too to ensure that all the low interest English traffic is redirected there please. If you mean that people interested in English localisation should have own lists, then I am not sure if that will work, since all the global work is is done in English already. What indeed is needed, is a way to make it work that people doing activities as marketing in areas where English is the language, have their lists. As far as I have seen (many unread messages) that is discussed also in another thread. Regards, Cor -- - giving openoffice.org its foundation :: The Document Foundation - - ideas/remarks for the community council? See http://wiki.services.openoffice.org/wiki/Community_Council -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
On 19 oct. 10, at 18:15, Florian Effenberger wrote: > Hi, > > Jean-Christophe Helary wrote on 2010-10-19 02.22: > >> I would like to propose that unlike what existed under Sun and Oracle, the >> linguistic communities _including_ the English speaking community, are all >> identified by a specific language marker and that all the lists that do not >> use that language marker are explicitly multilingual. > > I would not suggest doing so. This simply leads to chaos. Certainly not. The reason why is that most people would still use English as the communication language. In any case, the current "global" lists are not global, they are English lists and should be identified as such. There is no need for a "global" user list and the "global" discussion list should not be a mere "discussion" list but a "policy" list where only items of global interest regarding TDF or LO are discussed. > As you might have seen, we're currently setting up more local(ized) mailing > lists, which will also help in reducing the traffic on this main discussion > list. Ok, then create a few @en.libreoffice.org lists too to ensure that all the low interest English traffic is redirected there please. Jean-Christophe Helary fun: http://mac4translators.blogspot.com work: http://www.doublet.jp (ja/en > fr) tweets: http://twitter.com/brandelune -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
Re: [tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
Hi, Jean-Christophe Helary wrote on 2010-10-19 02.22: I would like to propose that unlike what existed under Sun and Oracle, the linguistic communities _including_ the English speaking community, are all identified by a specific language marker and that all the lists that do not use that language marker are explicitly multilingual. I would not suggest doing so. This simply leads to chaos. As you might have seen, we're currently setting up more local(ized) mailing lists, which will also help in reducing the traffic on this main discussion list. Florian -- Florian Effenberger Steering Committee and Founding Member of The Document Foundation Tel: +49 8341 99660880 | Mobile: +49 151 14424108 Skype: floeff | Twitter/Identi.ca: @floeff -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
[tdf-discuss] Multilingualism and discussions
I would like to propose that unlike what existed under Sun and Oracle, the linguistic communities _including_ the English speaking community, are all identified by a specific language marker and that all the lists that do not use that language marker are explicitly multilingual. The status quo under Sun and Oracle came from the fact that both Sun and Oracle were American based and mostly English speaking structures but we have no reason to reproduce that in the TDF. That basically means that: All the English speaking lists are @en.libreoffice.org And that all the lists @libreoffice.org are multilingual. This is the only way to ensure that no linguistic community has more power in the decision process than any other which is a basic requirement for all democratic process. There are enough multilingual people in the respective communities to ensure that the communication gap is bridged in all those lists. Jean-Christophe Helary fun: http://mac4translators.blogspot.com work: http://www.doublet.jp (ja/en > fr) tweets: http://twitter.com/brandelune -- E-mail to discuss+h...@documentfoundation.org for instructions on how to unsubscribe List archives are available at http://www.documentfoundation.org/lists/discuss/ All messages you send to this list will be publicly archived and cannot be deleted
