Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[gg wwk]

Firstly, greetings everyone I'm new here but I am looking to learn and use
Django more so...

I see the edge cases being a issue but I am for Oracle going out of core.
And in order to maintain and/or expand MySQL support  how is the the
implementation of MariaDB  going so far?

I quick glance revealed this much:
https://github.com/django/django/search?q=mariadb_q=mariadb

Thanks,
gwk

On Mon, Nov 26, 2018 at 10:32 PM Dan Davis  wrote:

>
> Another related question -
> https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/contributing/writing-code/unit-tests/#testing-other-python-versions-and-database-backends
> provides some terse advice for running the unit tests with different
> backends.   Is that essentially what is happening with a test like
> https://djangoci.com/job/django-oracle-1.11/, or is it more specific?
>
> On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 2:41:32 PM UTC-5, Tim Graham wrote:
>>
>> That's the query I would use. The 'oracle' keyword might not be assigned
>> completely but you can scan through all the "Database layers" tickets
>> fairly easily and add it to any that are missing.
>>
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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Dan Davis]

Another related question - 
https://docs.djangoproject.com/en/dev/internals/contributing/writing-code/unit-tests/#testing-other-python-versions-and-database-backends
 
provides some terse advice for running the unit tests with different 
backends.   Is that essentially what is happening with a test 
like https://djangoci.com/job/django-oracle-1.11/, or is it more specific?

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 2:41:32 PM UTC-5, Tim Graham wrote:
>
> That's the query I would use. The 'oracle' keyword might not be assigned 
> completely but you can scan through all the "Database layers" tickets 
> fairly easily and add it to any that are missing.
>

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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Tim Graham]

That's the query I would use. The 'oracle' keyword might not be assigned 
completely but you can scan through all the "Database layers" tickets 
fairly easily and add it to any that are missing.

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 12:25:06 PM UTC-5, Dan Davis wrote:
>
> Related question - how would I search for Oracle specific issues.   I 
> found this query:
>
>
> https://code.djangoproject.com/query?status=assigned=new=~oracle=Database+layer+(models%2C+ORM)=id=summary=status=component=owner=type=version=1=id
>
> However, I'm not sure how much I can rely on the keywords.
>

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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Dan Davis]

Related question - how would I search for Oracle specific issues.   I found 
this query:

https://code.djangoproject.com/query?status=assigned=new=~oracle=Database+layer+(models%2C+ORM)=id=summary=status=component=owner=type=version=1=id

However, I'm not sure how much I can rely on the keywords.

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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Tom Forbes]

Indeed, the initial setup of the database takes a horrendous amount of time
(like 30 minutes to init an empty database!).

On Mon, 26 Nov 2018, 14:12 Johannes Hoppe  To quote the documentation:
> https://github.com/orf/django-docker-box/blob/85780dcc81d62a4c0c1142b45eb69e825d97b074/README.md#oracl
> e
>
>
> "As usual Oracle is a bit more complex to set up.” ;)
>
>
> --
> Johannes Hoppe
>
> www.johanneshoppe.com
>
> Want to chat? Let's get a coffee!
> https://calendly.com/codingjoe/coffee
>
> Lennéstr. 19
> 14469 Potsdam
>
> USt-IdNr.: DE284754038
> On 26. Nov 2018, 14:55 +0100, charettes , wrote:
>
> I haven't tried it out for Oracle yet but Tom Forbes' django-docker-box
> seems to make it a not-too-painful process[0]
>
> Simon
>
> [0] https://github.com/orf/django-docker-box#oracle
>
> Le lundi 26 novembre 2018 04:05:41 UTC-5, Johannes Hoppe a écrit :
>>
>>
>> On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 9:49:46 AM UTC+1, Florian Apolloner
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks,
>>> but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with the
>>> ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work (if at
>>> all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not matter whether
>>> one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or MySQL. All in all I
>>> think having Oracle is a good thing because databases like MSSQL and
>>> Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just narrowing the
>>> core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of tunnel vision.
>>>
>>> Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer
>>> VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.
>>>
>> There is not official container and the one you can build from their
>> repo, didn't work for me. Furthermore you need to register with oracle and
>> give them your Phone number, just to download the python library bindings.
>> So it is somewhat harder than others ;)
>>
>>>
>>> Cheers,
>>> Florian
>>>
>> --
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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Johannes Hoppe]

To quote the documentation: 
https://github.com/orf/django-docker-box/blob/85780dcc81d62a4c0c1142b45eb69e825d97b074/README.md#oracle

"As usual Oracle is a bit more complex to set up.” ;)


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On 26. Nov 2018, 14:55 +0100, charettes , wrote:
> I haven't tried it out for Oracle yet but Tom Forbes' django-docker-box seems 
> to make it a not-too-painful process[0]
>
> Simon
>
> [0] https://github.com/orf/django-docker-box#oracle
>
> Le lundi 26 novembre 2018 04:05:41 UTC-5, Johannes Hoppe a écrit :
> >
> > On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 9:49:46 AM UTC+1, Florian Apolloner wrote:
> > > Hi,
> > >
> > > I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks, 
> > > but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with 
> > > the ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work 
> > > (if at all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not 
> > > matter whether one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or 
> > > MySQL. All in all I think having Oracle is a good thing because databases 
> > > like MSSQL and Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just 
> > > narrowing the core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of 
> > > tunnel vision.
> > >
> > > Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer 
> > > VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.
> > There is not official container and the one you can build from their repo, 
> > didn't work for me. Furthermore you need to register with oracle and give 
> > them your Phone number, just to download the python library bindings. So it 
> > is somewhat harder than others ;)
> > >
> > > Cheers,
> > > Florian
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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[charettes]

I haven't tried it out for Oracle yet but Tom Forbes' django-docker-box 
seems to make it a not-too-painful process[0]

Simon

[0] https://github.com/orf/django-docker-box#oracle

Le lundi 26 novembre 2018 04:05:41 UTC-5, Johannes Hoppe a écrit :
>
>
> On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 9:49:46 AM UTC+1, Florian Apolloner wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks, 
>> but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with the 
>> ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work (if at 
>> all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not matter whether 
>> one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or MySQL. All in all I 
>> think having Oracle is a good thing because databases like MSSQL and 
>> Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just narrowing the 
>> core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of tunnel vision.
>>
>> Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer 
>> VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.
>>
> There is not official container and the one you can build from their repo, 
> didn't work for me. Furthermore you need to register with oracle and give 
> them your Phone number, just to download the python library bindings. So it 
> is somewhat harder than others ;)
>
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Florian
>>
>

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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Jani Tiainen]

Johannes Hoppe  kirjoitti ma 26. marrask. 2018 klo
11.05:

>
> On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 9:49:46 AM UTC+1, Florian Apolloner wrote:
>>
>> Hi,
>>
>> I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks,
>> but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with the
>> ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work (if at
>> all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not matter whether
>> one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or MySQL. All in all I
>> think having Oracle is a good thing because databases like MSSQL and
>> Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just narrowing the
>> core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of tunnel vision.
>>
>> Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer
>> VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.
>>
> There is not official container and the one you can build from their repo,
> didn't work for me. Furthermore you need to register with oracle and give
> them your Phone number, just to download the python library bindings. So it
> is somewhat harder than others ;)
>
>>
I've very successfully built docker images from Oracle official repo
without any major problems.

Also since cx_Oracle 6 you can build db api bindings without oracle sdk
libraries with simple pip install. Using those though requires client libs.

Not sure about registration process and is it needed for instant client or
xe version.


>> Cheers,
>> Florian
>>
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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Johannes Hoppe]

Hahaha, yes kind of :P
If they become a corporate sponsor it shut up immediately ;)

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 9:08:13 AM UTC+1, Carlton Gibson wrote:
>
> Hi Joe! 
>
> On 26 Nov 2018, at 09:05, Johannes Hoppe  > wrote:
>
> I don't mind putting in extra work for an open source database. For a 
> private corp that makes 4bn in revenue... not so much. 
>
>
> Is the issue “How to squeeze money out of Oracle?” — On that, did anyone 
> try asking? 
> (I do feel that sentiment too.) 
>
> C.
>

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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Johannes Hoppe]

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 9:49:46 AM UTC+1, Florian Apolloner wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks, 
> but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with the 
> ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work (if at 
> all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not matter whether 
> one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or MySQL. All in all I 
> think having Oracle is a good thing because databases like MSSQL and 
> Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just narrowing the 
> core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of tunnel vision.
>
> Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer 
> VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.
>
There is not official container and the one you can build from their repo, 
didn't work for me. Furthermore you need to register with oracle and give 
them your Phone number, just to download the python library bindings. So it 
is somewhat harder than others ;)

>
> Cheers,
> Florian
>

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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Florian Apolloner]

Hi,

I personally agree with Mariusz here. Oracle might have it's own quirks, 
but the same could be said for any database. Taking my experience with the 
ORM into account I do not think that Oracle requires much more work (if at 
all) than any other database. I think in the end it does not matter whether 
one works around the limitations/features of Oracle or MySQL. All in all I 
think having Oracle is a good thing because databases like MSSQL and 
Informix/DB2 quite often behave similar to Oracle and just narrowing the 
core scope to MySQL/Pg/Sqlite might lead to a kind of tunnel vision.

Granted, Oracle might be a bit harder to install; but with the developer 
VMs and docker containers that argument doesn't really hold either imo.

Cheers,
Florian

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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Carlton Gibson]

Hi Joe! 

> On 26 Nov 2018, at 09:05, Johannes Hoppe  > wrote:
> 
> I don't mind putting in extra work for an open source database. For a private 
> corp that makes 4bn in revenue... not so much.

Is the issue “How to squeeze money out of Oracle?” — On that, did anyone try 
asking? 
(I do feel that sentiment too.)

C.

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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Johannes Hoppe]

On Monday, November 26, 2018 at 8:27:02 AM UTC+1, Mariusz Felisiak wrote:
>
> Hi
>
>  I don't agree that the Oracle back-end is poor implemented (I 
> probably should not treat this personally ). It is as well maintained as 
> any other back-end that is in the core. We don't have much more open 
> tickets in the Oracle back-end then in others and IMO it is easier to 
> maintain it in the core.
>
Haha, sorry, I didn't mean to offend anyone. I hope you can see past my 
poor choice of works. I just noticed that a lot of oracle specific behavior 
is implemented in the base backend, where other backends like MySQL opt to 
override methods to add their db specific behavior. 

>
>>- *Technical:*
>>   - *Oracle does not support may features*
>>   - *due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the 
>>   base database backend which drives overall complexity*
>>
>> Just like SQLite or MySQL I don't think that we should leave only 
> PostgreSQL in the core . 
>
They are actually a lot better maintained then Oracle, which leads me to 
believe it's not used that often. Besides both DBs you mentioned are open 
source. I don't mind putting in extra work for an open source database. For 
a private corp that makes 4bn in revenue... not so much. Maybe a separate 
backend project, would also see more support from Oracle.

>
>>- Development:
>>   - Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is 
>>   broken right now
>>
>> I don't see any failures in djangoci.com. Maybe you use an unsupported 
> version of Oracle?
>
> Best
> Mariusz
>
>
> W dniu niedziela, 25 listopada 2018 11:21:02 UTC+1 użytkownik Johannes 
> Hoppe napisał:
>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to 
>> realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor 
>> implementation of the Oracle backend.
>> Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that 
>> the current master, fails on oracle ;)
>>
>> Anyhow, I want to come to a conclusion about the following matter:
>>
>> Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0 
>> release?
>>
>> Here are a couple of reasons, why I believe this to be a good idea:
>>
>>- License
>>- Oracle is  Proprietary software
>>- Money
>>   - Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes 40bn 
>>   in revenue
>>- Technical:
>>   - Oracle does not support may features
>>   - due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the 
>>   base database backend which drives overall complexity
>>- Development:
>>   - Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is 
>>   broken right now
>>   - entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
>>  - one needs to accept a non open source license
>>  - register with oracle
>>  - go through a very complex setup process
>>   
>> Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep 
>> them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed 
>> separately from Django.
>> This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is 
>> enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what 
>> Django want's to offer.
>>
>> Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
>>
>> Best
>> -Joe
>>
>

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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Mariusz Felisiak]

Hi

 I don't agree that the Oracle back-end is poor implemented (I probably 
should not treat this personally ). It is as well maintained as any other 
back-end that is in the core. We don't have much more open tickets in the 
Oracle back-end then in others and IMO it is easier to maintain it in the 
core.

>
>- *Technical:*
>   - *Oracle does not support may features*
>   - *due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the 
>   base database backend which drives overall complexity*
>
> Just like SQLite or MySQL I don't think that we should leave only 
PostgreSQL in the core . 

>
>- Development:
>   - Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is 
>   broken right now
>
> I don't see any failures in djangoci.com. Maybe you use an unsupported 
version of Oracle?

Best
Mariusz


W dniu niedziela, 25 listopada 2018 11:21:02 UTC+1 użytkownik Johannes 
Hoppe napisał:

> Hi there,
>
> I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to 
> realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor 
> implementation of the Oracle backend.
> Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that the 
> current master, fails on oracle ;)
>
> Anyhow, I want to come to a conclusion about the following matter:
>
> Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0 
> release?
>
> Here are a couple of reasons, why I believe this to be a good idea:
>
>- License
>- Oracle is  Proprietary software
>- Money
>   - Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes 40bn 
>   in revenue
>- Technical:
>   - Oracle does not support may features
>   - due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the 
>   base database backend which drives overall complexity
>- Development:
>   - Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is 
>   broken right now
>   - entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
>  - one needs to accept a non open source license
>  - register with oracle
>  - go through a very complex setup process
>   
> Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep 
> them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed 
> separately from Django.
> This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is 
> enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what 
> Django want's to offer.
>
> Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
>
> Best
> -Joe
>

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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Dan Davis]

My employer is an Oracle shop.  I would dedicate myself to Oracle specific
bugs to prevent removing Oracle from core.   That said, we'll probably be
off Oracle and onto the cloud and Postgresql by 3.0.

On Sun, Nov 25, 2018 at 1:36 PM Adam Johnson  wrote:

> Interestingly, I didn't receive your first email Johannes, only Tim's
> reply. I can't even find it in spam. Maybe Gmail's filters highly associate
> mentions of "Oracle" with spam? :/
>
> I agree that with Tim that it's going to be easier to keep it in core if
> development is going to continue. Any suggestion that unbundling it would
> improve its support lifecycle should be well backend by Django+Oracle users
> themselves, which I take it you aren't Johannes.
>
> On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 17:54, Tim Graham  wrote:
>
>> I can't find a past discussion specific to Oracle, but it's not a new
>> proposal. See
>> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/O-g06EM6XMM/discussion
>> for "Moving database backends out of the core."
>>
>> I think removing Oracle from core would only increase the maintenance
>> burden. Since Oracle has edge cases, it's useful to test those along with
>> new Django features. If the Oracle backend is in a separate repo, then
>> adding new features will often require commits to two repositories and I
>> don't know how we would run the tests with pull request X for Django and
>> pull request Y for the Oracle backend. Then we also have to release the
>> Oracle backend separately.
>>
>> djangoci.com isn't reporting any Oracle failures on master. If you've
>> found an issue, please open a ticket with details.
>>
>> We don't run the Oracle tests with pull requests because they take about
>> an hour, while other databases take about 10 minutes. It hasn't been
>> difficult to identify which pull requests require running the tests on
>> Oracle and to trigger that build with the trigger phrase.
>>
>> On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 5:21:02 AM UTC-5, Johannes Hoppe wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi there,
>>>
>>> I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to
>>> realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor
>>> implementation of the Oracle backend.
>>> Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that
>>> the current master, fails on oracle ;)
>>>
>>> Anyhow, I want to come to a conclusion about the following matter:
>>>
>>> Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0
>>> release?
>>>
>>> Here are a couple of reasons, why I believe this to be a good idea:
>>>
>>>- License
>>>- Oracle is  Proprietary software
>>>- Money
>>>   - Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes
>>>   40bn in revenue
>>>- Technical:
>>>   - Oracle does not support may features
>>>   - due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the
>>>   base database backend which drives overall complexity
>>>- Development:
>>>   - Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is
>>>   broken right now
>>>   - entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
>>>  - one needs to accept a non open source license
>>>  - register with oracle
>>>  - go through a very complex setup process
>>>
>>> Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep
>>> them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed
>>> separately from Django.
>>> This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is
>>> enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what
>>> Django want's to offer.
>>>
>>> Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
>>>
>>> Best
>>> -Joe
>>>
>> --
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>> "Django developers (Contributions to Django itself)" group.
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>> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> https://groups.google.com/d/msgid/django-developers/d354b7a9-d116-41e9-9b4c-f8335931957f%40googlegroups.com
>> 
>> .
>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>
>
>
> --
> Adam
>
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> To view this 

Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Adam Johnson]

Interestingly, I didn't receive your first email Johannes, only Tim's
reply. I can't even find it in spam. Maybe Gmail's filters highly associate
mentions of "Oracle" with spam? :/

I agree that with Tim that it's going to be easier to keep it in core if
development is going to continue. Any suggestion that unbundling it would
improve its support lifecycle should be well backend by Django+Oracle users
themselves, which I take it you aren't Johannes.

On Sun, 25 Nov 2018 at 17:54, Tim Graham  wrote:

> I can't find a past discussion specific to Oracle, but it's not a new
> proposal. See
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/O-g06EM6XMM/discussion
> for "Moving database backends out of the core."
>
> I think removing Oracle from core would only increase the maintenance
> burden. Since Oracle has edge cases, it's useful to test those along with
> new Django features. If the Oracle backend is in a separate repo, then
> adding new features will often require commits to two repositories and I
> don't know how we would run the tests with pull request X for Django and
> pull request Y for the Oracle backend. Then we also have to release the
> Oracle backend separately.
>
> djangoci.com isn't reporting any Oracle failures on master. If you've
> found an issue, please open a ticket with details.
>
> We don't run the Oracle tests with pull requests because they take about
> an hour, while other databases take about 10 minutes. It hasn't been
> difficult to identify which pull requests require running the tests on
> Oracle and to trigger that build with the trigger phrase.
>
> On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 5:21:02 AM UTC-5, Johannes Hoppe wrote:
>>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to
>> realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor
>> implementation of the Oracle backend.
>> Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that
>> the current master, fails on oracle ;)
>>
>> Anyhow, I want to come to a conclusion about the following matter:
>>
>> Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0
>> release?
>>
>> Here are a couple of reasons, why I believe this to be a good idea:
>>
>>- License
>>- Oracle is  Proprietary software
>>- Money
>>   - Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes 40bn
>>   in revenue
>>- Technical:
>>   - Oracle does not support may features
>>   - due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the
>>   base database backend which drives overall complexity
>>- Development:
>>   - Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is
>>   broken right now
>>   - entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
>>  - one needs to accept a non open source license
>>  - register with oracle
>>  - go through a very complex setup process
>>
>> Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep
>> them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed
>> separately from Django.
>> This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is
>> enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what
>> Django want's to offer.
>>
>> Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
>>
>> Best
>> -Joe
>>
> --
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> email to django-developers+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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> .
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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[André Luis Pereira dos Santos]

Move database backends out of the Django's core sounds great.
 

Em domingo, 25 de novembro de 2018 15:54:21 UTC-2, Tim Graham escreveu:
>
> I can't find a past discussion specific to Oracle, but it's not a new 
> proposal. See 
> https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/O-g06EM6XMM/discussion 
> for "Moving database backends out of the core."
>
> I think removing Oracle from core would only increase the maintenance 
> burden. Since Oracle has edge cases, it's useful to test those along with 
> new Django features. If the Oracle backend is in a separate repo, then 
> adding new features will often require commits to two repositories and I 
> don't know how we would run the tests with pull request X for Django and 
> pull request Y for the Oracle backend. Then we also have to release the 
> Oracle backend separately.
>
> djangoci.com isn't reporting any Oracle failures on master. If you've 
> found an issue, please open a ticket with details.
>
> We don't run the Oracle tests with pull requests because they take about 
> an hour, while other databases take about 10 minutes. It hasn't been 
> difficult to identify which pull requests require running the tests on 
> Oracle and to trigger that build with the trigger phrase.
>
> On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 5:21:02 AM UTC-5, Johannes Hoppe wrote:
>>
>> Hi there,
>>
>> I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to 
>> realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor 
>> implementation of the Oracle backend.
>> Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that 
>> the current master, fails on oracle ;)
>>
>> Anyhow, I want to come to a conclusion about the following matter:
>>
>> Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0 
>> release?
>>
>> Here are a couple of reasons, why I believe this to be a good idea:
>>
>>- License
>>- Oracle is  Proprietary software
>>- Money
>>   - Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes 40bn 
>>   in revenue
>>- Technical:
>>   - Oracle does not support may features
>>   - due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the 
>>   base database backend which drives overall complexity
>>- Development:
>>   - Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is 
>>   broken right now
>>   - entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
>>  - one needs to accept a non open source license
>>  - register with oracle
>>  - go through a very complex setup process
>>   
>> Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep 
>> them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed 
>> separately from Django.
>> This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is 
>> enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what 
>> Django want's to offer.
>>
>> Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
>>
>> Best
>> -Joe
>>
>

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Re: Removing Oracle from Django core in 3.0

[Tim Graham]

I can't find a past discussion specific to Oracle, but it's not a new 
proposal. See 
https://groups.google.com/d/topic/django-developers/O-g06EM6XMM/discussion 
for "Moving database backends out of the core."

I think removing Oracle from core would only increase the maintenance 
burden. Since Oracle has edge cases, it's useful to test those along with 
new Django features. If the Oracle backend is in a separate repo, then 
adding new features will often require commits to two repositories and I 
don't know how we would run the tests with pull request X for Django and 
pull request Y for the Oracle backend. Then we also have to release the 
Oracle backend separately.

djangoci.com isn't reporting any Oracle failures on master. If you've found 
an issue, please open a ticket with details.

We don't run the Oracle tests with pull requests because they take about an 
hour, while other databases take about 10 minutes. It hasn't been difficult 
to identify which pull requests require running the tests on Oracle and to 
trigger that build with the trigger phrase.

On Sunday, November 25, 2018 at 5:21:02 AM UTC-5, Johannes Hoppe wrote:
>
> Hi there,
>
> I have recently refactored some bits in the database backend and came to 
> realize that a lot of the complexity in there comes from the poor 
> implementation of the Oracle backend.
> Fun fact, did you know that Oracle tests don't run by default and that the 
> current master, fails on oracle ;)
>
> Anyhow, I want to come to a conclusion about the following matter:
>
> Should we remove the Oracle database backend from Django core in the 3.0 
> release?
>
> Here are a couple of reasons, why I believe this to be a good idea:
>
>- License
>- Oracle is  Proprietary software
>- Money
>   - Oracle is not a sponsor of the Django Foundation, but makes 40bn 
>   in revenue
>- Technical:
>   - Oracle does not support may features
>   - due to its lack of features, a lot of edge case handling to the 
>   base database backend which drives overall complexity
>- Development:
>   - Oracle does not run in the regular CI suite, in fact master is 
>   broken right now
>   - entrance barrier for first time contributors is high
>  - one needs to accept a non open source license
>  - register with oracle
>  - go through a very complex setup process
>   
> Of course there are some users who use Oracle and I don't want to keep 
> them hanging. I simply believe the database backend should be developed 
> separately from Django.
> This could even be helpful for the Oracle community. Since oracle is 
> enterprise only, they usually looks for longer support cycles than what 
> Django want's to offer.
>
> Ok, I made my case, I am curious, what do you guys think?
>
> Best
> -Joe
>

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