Re: [DNG] [SPAM] Re: [SPAM] Re: Way forward

[chillfan--- via Dng]

In beowulf at least you can use libelogind0 in place of libsystemd0 but 
packages still require something that provides it.

libelogind0 shares some code with libsystemd0 and of course we only need it to 
provide some desktops, so there are things left where we don't need it.

In beowulf at least you can use libelogind0 which is a slight relief :)

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Sunday, April 14, 2019 8:59 AM, aitor_czr  wrote:

> On 14/4/19 9:55, aitor_czr wrote:
> 

> > On 13/4/19 16:34, mett wrote:
> > 

> > > While everybody is obviously free to leave if he realizes he does not
> > > share the same goal as the rest of the project, we are still facing a
> > > crisis. I thus believe that we should win over people who supported 
> > > devuan in the
> > > past, not fight with them.
> > 

> > Of course, i agree. And they are free to decide. But my words have not been 
> > aimed against
> > any people who supported devuan in the past, neither against Centurion Dan 
> > nor against KatolaZ.
> > I was referring to such person who decided to end his membership of the 
> > list *making noice*.
> > Please, if someone else takes the same way in the future, do it as a 
> > gentleman. Imho, it's the time to
> > end this thread.
> > Cheers,
> > Aitor.
> 

> *noise*

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Re: [DNG] Way forward

[chillfan--- via Dng]

IMHO..

I mentioned before that I didn't take your joke badly, and I do think others 
shouldn't either.

About corporations: 


If they are that interested in Devuan (and yes I'm repeating myself) they 
should put some dedicated maintainers our way so we can remove all of 
libsystemd0.

I've often heard it said 'linux' would be nowhere without them but consider 
that we've found ourselves in the situation where systemd must be removed, 
because they insisted on inserting it into every piece of userland they could.

After a little thought my view is that we can't afford to care about what they 
think. It's a simple exchange where everyone benefits, but as to what they 
think this shouldn't go anywhere near development.

I don't think we should constrain ourselves in our personalities or viewpoint 
we have, there's enough of that shit going around. If we start arguing over a 
joke that landed on april fools, I wonder how long it is until we get COC'd to 
death.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Thursday, April 11, 2019 9:19 AM, KatolaZ  wrote:

> Dear D1rs,
> 

> the first Devuan Conference last weekend was an incredible experience,
> which confirmed that Devuan has lots of energy, strength, imagination,
> humanity, and willpower to succeed in its quest. Devuan is in
> excellent hands, and it is destined to grow from strength to strength.
> 

> I joined this project much before it was called Devuan, and I have
> always considered it a battle worth to be fought, day after day. I
> promised myself that I would have continued contributing to Devuan
> until the day we would have started talking corporate bullshit, or
> stopped trusting each other, or given up on having fun.
> 

> In the last ten days all those threee things have materialised, to
> different degrees. Hence, I have decided to withdraw from Devuan and
> will now take an indefinite leave from the project.
> 

> Please forget this thread and do not waste any single bit on it: I
> will not read and I will not reply. If you have time to spare, use it
> to help Devuan in any way you can. Beowulf is very close, it will be a
> fantastic release and it will finally close the gap with upstream :)
> 

> Thanks for your passion and for the great community you make: this is
> what powers Devuan, and what has made the miracle come true against
> all odds.
> 

> Live, Love, GNU/Linux, and never forget to Laugh Your Asses Off ;)
> 

> I'll see you around.
> 

> KatolaZ, the last humble servant
> 

> 
> 

> [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ]
> [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ]
> [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ]
> [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ]
> [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ]
> 

> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng



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[DNG] dbus as a nuisance and cause of bugs

[chillfan--- via Dng]

Aside from the nuisance of constant warnings and attempts by programs to 
connect to a daemon that isn't available (mainly dbus and pulse) and the thing 
with machine-id spam.. 


I've just found that xorg will constantly spam the xorg logs every 10 seconds 
due to libdbus support if it cannot connect to the daemon.

This is an open issue with debian but I have opened it also as a Devuan bug 
since I think it's likely to affect some here who don't bother to run dbus.

Needless to say, I am once again frustrated with dbus the garbage and bug 
generator.

Cheers,

chillfan



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Re: [DNG] The 1st Devuan conference kicks off tomorrow afternoon!

[chillfan--- via Dng]

Watched all of the talks now. All very well done, informative and entertaining 
and there was plenty to talk about. Pure gold :)


Cheers,

chillfan


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Re: [DNG] The 1st Devuan conference kicks off tomorrow afternoon!

[chillfan--- via Dng]

It was a slight shame about the audio but I was grateful to have the stream 
available to watch what was going on. Very enjoyable and instructive.

I did miss some of the talks yesterday so will look forward to seeing them on 
the website.

Cheers,

chillfan


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, April 8, 2019 8:00 AM, Jaromil  wrote:

> On Sun, 07 Apr 2019, Lars Noodén via Dng wrote:
> 

> > On 4/7/19 4:53 PM, Linux O'Beardly via Dng wrote:
> > 

> > > We've had a number of excellent talks which have been recorded and
> > > can be seen at https://www.youtube.com/user/DyneOrg.
> > 

> > Thanks for posting the recordings. The sound isn't always the best but
> > I am quite grateful that some people planned to record the event and
> > were able to post it so quickly.
> 

> we know about the sound problems and the good news is that they are
> due to the streaming bandwidth available. The audio in the recordings
> shouldn't have these problems, will be edited and published soon.
> 

> the devuan conference has been a significant production effort at
> Dyne, lead by our colleague and production manager Federico Bonelli,
> and it was totally worthed.
> 

> for those who can't wait, some talks have been already indexed of the
> continuous recording here and they are still visible at stream quality
> http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?pid=15399#p15399
> 

> the final recordings will be soon published on the devuan.org page
> 

> I agree with O'Beardly this was a very succesful event, it will
> certainly boost Devuan's visibility and contributions. Talks are
> outstanding and worthed to circulate at large once ready.
> 

> ciao!
> 

> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng



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Re: [DNG] frustration with browsers.

[chillfan--- via Dng]

Indeed there is Icecat that is DRM free.

Iceweasel-UXP just covers some more of the criteria of what people would 
consider less frustrating or is closer to a real fork since they change things 
at the code level.

It would be interesting if there was a version of Icecat based on Iceweasel-UXP.

The other one that's similar is Palemoon, but it doesn't have WebRTC. Generally 
a good thing but sometimes WebRTC is wanted for jitsi.

Cheers,

chillfan


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, April 5, 2019 3:10 PM, al3xu5 / dotcommon  
wrote:

> Il giorno venerdì 05/04/2019 13:50:03 +
> chill...@protonmail.com ha scritto:
> 

> > Might potentially be a solution if anyone did decide to package another
> > browser to try to solve the problem, since it comes from the hyperbola
> > project.
> 

> Another is the GNU/IceCat browser:
> 

> -   IceCat project
> https://www.gnu.org/software/gnuzilla/
> 

> -   downloads:
> https://ftp.gnu.org/gnu/gnuzilla/
> 

> -   bug-gnuzilla mailing-list archives
> https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnuzilla/
> 

> -   user documentation
> https://libreplanet.org/wiki/Group:IceCat/
> 

> Regards
> 

> --
> al3xu5
> 

> Say NO to copyright, patents, trademarks and any industrial design 
> restrictions.
> 

> 

> Public GPG/PGP key block
> ID: 4096 bit RSA key 69C5977BF94CFE23
> Fingerprint: 59C6 9DC7 CD4B CF2F A190 E3DE 69C5 977B F94C FE23
> 

> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng



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Re: [DNG] frustration with browsers.

[chillfan--- via Dng]

Might potentially be a solution if anyone did decide to package another browser 
to try to solve the problem, since it comes from the hyperbola project. 


They follow a "when it's ready" release cycle afaik which probably means they 
have patches of their that can be applied, making things a little easier.


Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, April 5, 2019 1:13 PM,  wrote:


> I like the idea of Iceweasel-UXP[1] as a more recent and complete firefox 
> replacement without DRM, especially if trimmed down a little.
> 

> [1]: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:project:iceweasel-uxp
> 

> Cheers,
> 

> chillfan
> 



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Re: [DNG] What you saw on devuan.org yesterday was an April's fools joke

[chillfan--- via Dng]

It was just more relevant for this discussion to mention Katolaz and his hard 
work. There are other core developers who are also working hard. 


I'm not sure then if the bus-factor does apply, but I'm sure none of the core 
developers are the type to cross the road without looking ;-)


Cheers,

chillfan


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, April 5, 2019 2:19 PM, Andrew McGlashan 
 wrote:

> Hi,
> 

> On 5/4/19 11:28 pm, info at smallinnovations dot nl wrote:
> 

> > On 05-04-19 11:16, Simon Hobson wrote:
> > 

> > > chillfan wrote:
> > > 

> > > > Katolaz is working very hard to ensure we have releases, but I
> > > > didn't realise he was doing all this even.
> > > > I didn't either. So another +1 for Katolaz and all the work he's
> > > > doing. And everyone else of course, but I think it's a bit unfair
> > > > for people to be calling for heads on spikes (or one head on a
> > > > spike) over a fairly good joke.
> > > 

> > > I can understand why some people get a bit upset, but really
> > > guys, lighten up. If there's no room for a bit of fun now and
> > > again then life gets a bit dull - like the corporate world of
> > > grey suites and endlist lists of things you aren't allowed to say
> > > or do.
> > 

> > I know Katolaz is working very hard and i appreciate it very much.
> > But i am working in ICT and in construction and the two areas where
> > you do not joke about are security and safety. Since he already
> > apologized i will not discuss it further or in Dutch: zand erover.
> 

> There is a different, but also VERY IMPORTANT consideration here.
> 

> What if Katolaz gets hit by a bus?
> 

> Whilst I do appreciate the work he does, it really is a potential
> nightmare should he become unavailable for the works he is currently
> doing. What about backup wetware and other team members, is enough
> known to move forward if we, for whatever reason, are unfortunate
> enough to lose him?
> 

> Kind Regards
> AnsdrewM



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Re: [DNG] frustration with browsers.

[chillfan--- via Dng]

The problems as I see them are:

Browsers either have DRM or they are bloated with features some don't expect to 
be there and are no modularity at all. Sometimes you can disable a feature but 
not remove it.

The alternatives are often not packaged by Debian, so if they don't have it 
then we'd need to package it ourselves. Firefox and derivatives are sometimes 
very large.

Things move fast and the alternatives don't provide a long term support cycle 
afaict. Since they would need to be maintained for a whole release cycle (and 
LTS) that makes it more awkward to package.

I like the idea of Iceweasel-UXP[1] as a more recent and complete firefox 
replacement without DRM, especially if trimmed down a little.

[1]: https://wiki.hyperbola.info/doku.php?id=en:project:iceweasel-uxp

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, April 5, 2019 12:23 PM, Hendrik Boom  wrote:

> On Fri, Apr 05, 2019 at 08:06:14AM +0000, chillfan--- via Dng wrote:
> 

> > There are many of us frustrated with web browsers and the web in general,
> 

> Is there anything that can be done about this?
> 

> Browsers seem to be an all-or-nothing kind of nonmodularity.
> 

> Yet they should have components that can be used independently.
> 

> I can see
> 

> a hugely complicated display mechanism that takes HTML, pdf, and other
> file formats and displays them. (This could easily be several
> mechanisms, of course)
> 

> A user-interface system that gives the user some influence in deciding
> which files are to be displayed (and implicitly fetches them using a
> variety of protocols or refuses to do this on the basis of security
> concerns which may conflict with the user's). This is a largely
> nonprogrammable interface.
> 

> 
> 

> A number of these tools would be quite useful if they could easily be
> called independently from any relatively sane and bug-resistant
> high-level language (user's choice).
> 

> I'd very much like to be programmatically in charge of the browser.
> I'd like to be able to make it do things not in the immediate vision of
> the large organisation providing it -- without starting over from
> scratch.
> 

> -- hendrik
> 

> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng



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Re: [DNG] What you saw on devuan.org yesterday was an April's fools joke

[chillfan--- via Dng]

Katolaz is working very hard to ensure we have releases, but I didn't realise 
he was doing all this even. There shouldn't be any sore feelings over this or 
anything personal.

He really had me there for a moment but gopher and browser complaints were good 
clues something isn't quite right ;)

There are many of us frustrated with web browsers and the web in general, and a 
couple of people are nostalgic over gopher. It's funnier for me because I know 
this.

This seems like a bad reaction to an april fools joke to me, and personally I 
feel that the systemd camp wants to score some cheap points.

Afaik we are all volunteers, which is different than having people who are 
contracted to maintain and develop Devuan. I think some dedicated maintainers 
should be put our way before anyone gets uptight about an april fools joke.

Cheers,

chillfan


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, April 2, 2019 3:30 PM, Jaromil  wrote:

> dear readers,
> 

> as a Devuan caretaker and co-founder, in my own personal capacity, let
> me state that:
> 

> 1.  There was no break-in on any part of Devuan's infrastructure on 1st
> April. This was the most skillfull prank I've witnessed in my life.
> 

> 2.  Devuan comes WITHOUT ANY WARRANTY. Bluntly put, if you want to hold
> someone liable, you need a contract. There are many professionals
> here and in the world who can offer you support. Blaming any Devuan
> developer for problems caused by his/her actions, be it a joke or a
> mistake, is nonsense. Do read the license, if you need to hold
> anyone liable for your own needs then make sure you have a contract
> with somoene. It is entirely up to you to trust us or not
> 

> 3.  At Dyne.org - a public ICT research institution working with the
> European Commission and some major municipalities - we use Devuan
> in production. Clearly we need the reliability: so we work for
> it. We are not only developing Devuan, but also we have an in-house
> continuous-integration infrastructure to build packages and new
> images for Devuan's many targets. I encourage everyone reading to
> consider contributing to Devuan and at the same time plan your own
> way of making a community project reliable for your own
> professional use.
> 

> 4.  Katolaz is not just one of the caretakers of Devuan, but is by far
> the developer making the most significant contributions to this
> project. If it wasn't for him, we would be stuck at Jessie,
> IMHO. For our community project, he has done:
> -   about 75 Devuan packages
> -   all the Devuan installers since Jessie RC
> -   all the minimal-live images since Jessie Beta2
> -   development on the Devuan SDK
> -   work on the sysvinit package in Debian
> -   maintainance of all our critical infrastructure, including
> all the building hosts, jenkins, dak, amprolla, pkgmaster,
> mirrors, BTS, file server, all the ganeti nodes, DNS, web,
> and what not.
> 

> I wish there would be no need for a personalising argument in this
> email, however given the attack Katolaz received I think of it as
> necessary. I've been through something like this myself on this
> very list, leading also to vandalization of wikipedia pages about
> my work. Is not funny at all and some solidarity helps a lot.
> 

> This mail is signed with the same 8192B RSA GPG key who signs all
> packages distributed by Devuan. I'm not sure if we can go deeper in
> trust... my former key signs this one too and was in turn signed by
> GPG's author. Perhaps now I'll ask Werner to reach us in Amsterdam and
> cuddle on the couch a bit ;^)
> 

> ciao
> 

> --
> Denis "Jaromil" Roio https://Dyne.org think  tank
> Ph.D, CTO & co-founder software to empower communities
> ✉ Haparandadam 7-A1, 1013AK Amsterdam, The Netherlands
> ✩ Profile and publications: https://jaromil.dyne.org
> 턞 crypto κρυπτο крипто गुप्त् 加密 האנוסים المشفره
> ⚷ 6113D89C A825C5CE DD02C872 73B35DA5 4ACB7D10
> 

> 

> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng



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Re: [DNG] new freedesktop "standard": /etc/machine-id

[chillfan--- via Dng]

For me the short answer is that I very much dislike this and would prefer not 
to have it. 


There was an open issue in my git repo about performance issues relating to 
'machine id' and pulse when dbus is not available. The person reporting it 
provided a hackish work around and I later asked them to file this as a bug 
with debian. Not sure if Debian got a bug report, and it was a while ago so I'm 
not sure if it can be reproduced now.

I think it's generally better if we can do without it so that things work as 
expected when users decide not to use dbus, pulse, etc.

That's my two cents on that anyway.


Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, March 8, 2019 12:47 PM, Jaromil  wrote:

> re all,
> 

> any thoughts about this new systemd-made thing that freedesktop
> immediately "standardized" (whatever is their procedure for that,
> likely smoking cigars among old-boys or so)
> https://www.freedesktop.org/software/systemd/man/machine-id.html
> 

> its easy to replace by a script of course that's not the problem (the
> manpage suggests to use a systemd application for that, not a joke!)
> but I'm curious if anyone has some background and thoughts about this
> 

> AFAIK chromium started checking it and its absence on Devuan Beowulf
> is reported as an error, so we may have to work around this.
> 

> but first things first: do we want /etc/machine-id? and how?
> 

> ciao
> 

> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng



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Re: [DNG] Migrate to Beowulf

[chillfan--- via Dng]

Upgrading from ascii to beowulf was very straight forward for me.

sed -i 's/ascii/beowulf/' /etc/apt/sources.list

then apt-get update && apt-get dist-upgrade

If it's not straight forward, please inbox me. I don't have much time to do 
anything just now but I'll eventually document the upgrade process and any 
quirks with it.


Cheers,

chillfan


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Thursday, February 28, 2019 2:49 PM, Antonio Trkdz.tab via Dng 
 wrote:

> HI All,
> 

> I am actually looking to migrate from Ascii to Beowulf.
> What is the best course of action?
> 

> Is the information here: 
> http://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=2301
> still relevant?
> 

> I use mate desktop and nvidia drivers and I have packages from backports as 
> well as other repos external to devuan that I can easily disable.
> 

> Thanks!
> 

> Antonio



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Re: [DNG] iptables forced obsolescence over upgrade

[chillfan--- via Dng]

No, I do not need nft if I only intend to use iptables. This is just additional 
complexity. They think I need it sure, since they want to immediately start the 
transition to nft.

But I can just see this breaking things for people who like me built their own 
kernel for specific needs, such as servers where a lot of people will do just 
for performance or security reasons and will not include any nft support.

Actually, if they insist on transitioning to nft then at least they should warn 
during upgrade that the 'legacy' (as it's for some reason called) iptables has 
moved path.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, February 16, 2019 6:35 PM, Alessandro Selli 
 wrote:

> On 16/02/19 at 11:26, chillfan--- via Dng wrote:
> 

> > And of course I don't need nft
> 

>   Yes, you do.
> 

>   For some reason  you don't want it, but that's a different matter.
> 

> 

> 
> 

> Alessandro Selli alessandrose...@linux.com
> VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net
> Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key:
> BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE



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Re: [DNG] iptables forced obsolescence over upgrade

[chillfan--- via Dng]

Imo this is nowhere near a pleasant way to do things for users. It would have 
been much better to just provide a separate iptables nft package by default 
during the install, as they really haven't given iptables the axe yet.

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Re: [DNG] iptables forced obsolescence over upgrade

[chillfan--- via Dng]

So it turns out if you have the proper nft support (nft + compat module 
probably) in your kernel then iptables will continue to work.

The ifup failure looks like this:

iptables-restore/1.8.2 Failed to initialize nft: Protocol not supported
run-parts: /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/iptables exited with return code 1
ifup: failed to bring up eth0

So the script in if-pre-up.d is not working because it returns 1 instead of 0. 
Maybe this behaviour is the best since otherwise someone would be left without 
a firewall or other feature and not know about it. Better to just change 
scripts to point to /usr/sbin/iptables-legacy-restore for now.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, February 16, 2019 10:26 AM,  wrote:

> Yeah, although the nft wiki seems to suggest it will replace iptables they 
> seem to be coexisting at the moment.
> 

> The problem with iptables is it expects you to have nft support. A quick find 
> command shows some changes in the provided binaries.
> 

> /sbin/iptables-save
> /sbin/iptables
> /sbin/iptables-restore
> /usr/sbin/iptables-save
> /usr/sbin/iptables-nft-save
> /usr/sbin/iptables-legacy-restore
> /usr/sbin/iptables
> /usr/sbin/iptables-legacy
> /usr/sbin/iptables-nft-restore
> /usr/sbin/iptables-restore
> /usr/sbin/iptables-legacy-save
> /usr/sbin/iptables-apply
> /usr/sbin/iptables-nft
> 

> Running /sbin/iptables gives:
> 

> iptables/1.8.2 Failed to initialize nft: Protocol not supported
> 

> And of course I don't need nft so it's not built into my kernel. For the sake 
> of testing I will check what happens when you do have nft support as I'm sure 
> the stock kernel has.
> 

> The usual setup for restoring iptables is to place the script in 
> /etc/network/if-pre-up.d/iptables and restore the rules from a config file 
> somewhere in /etc. Maybe the quirk here is ifupdown expects if-pre-up.d 
> scripts to run succesfully before bringing up the interface.
> 

> Cheers,
> 

> chillfan
> 

> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Saturday, February 16, 2019 8:38 AM, KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote:
> 

> > chillfan, I have several beowulf machines and all use iptables, and
> > none of them has had that issue. Maybe I have not apt-get updated
> > recently. Could it just be a quirk of if-up? Shall we try to track
> > the issue down?
> > On another note: before a useless ranftul flame gets started, please
> > note that as chillfan said iptables is not going away from the Linux
> > kernel.
> > My2Cents
> > KatolaZ
> > 

> > [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ]
> > [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ]
> > [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ]
> > [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ]
> > [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ]



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Re: [DNG] iptables forced obsolescence over upgrade

[chillfan--- via Dng]

Yeah, although the nft wiki seems to suggest it will replace iptables they seem 
to be coexisting at the moment.

The problem with iptables is it expects you to have nft support. A quick find 
command shows some changes in the provided binaries.

/sbin/iptables-save
/sbin/iptables
/sbin/iptables-restore
/usr/sbin/iptables-save
/usr/sbin/iptables-nft-save
/usr/sbin/iptables-legacy-restore
/usr/sbin/iptables
/usr/sbin/iptables-legacy
/usr/sbin/iptables-nft-restore
/usr/sbin/iptables-restore
/usr/sbin/iptables-legacy-save
/usr/sbin/iptables-apply
/usr/sbin/iptables-nft

Running /sbin/iptables gives: 


iptables/1.8.2 Failed to initialize nft: Protocol not supported

And of course I don't need nft so it's not built into my kernel. For the sake 
of testing I will check what happens when you do have nft support as I'm sure 
the stock kernel has.

The usual setup for restoring iptables is to place the script in 
/etc/network/if-pre-up.d/iptables and restore the rules from a config file 
somewhere in /etc. Maybe the quirk here is ifupdown expects if-pre-up.d scripts 
to run succesfully before bringing up the interface.  


Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Saturday, February 16, 2019 8:38 AM, KatolaZ  wrote:

> chillfan, I have several beowulf machines and all use iptables, and
> none of them has had that issue. Maybe I have not apt-get updated
> recently. Could it just be a quirk of if-up? Shall we try to track
> the issue down?
> 

> On another note: before a useless ranftul flame gets started, please
> note that as chillfan said iptables is not going away from the Linux
> kernel.
> 

> My2Cents
> 

> KatolaZ
> 

> -
> 

> [ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab ]
> [ "+. katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ]
> [ @) http://kalos.mine.nu --- Devuan GNU + Linux User ]
> [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia -- GPG: 0B5F062F ]
> [ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ ]



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[DNG] iptables forced obsolescence over upgrade

[chillfan--- via Dng]

Of the most stupid thing to happen over an upgrade.. Debian have forcibly 
broken a security feature. Which is to say, don't expect your firewall to still 
be functioning when you upgrade to Buster. And expect it to cause network 
failure.

Short story, I upgraded an ascii system to Beowulf since Buster is now entering 
soft freeze if Debian have kept to their timetable. But surprise of all 
surprises, my network isn't working.

Why? Because I restore my _iptables_ rules when bringing up interfaces. 
Apparently you must now use nftables and this was causing the ifupdown scripts 
to fail failure because the if-up script returns a failure.

As far as I can see iptables is now called 'iptables-legacy' and 'iptables' 
actually uses nft. But btw, iptables is not deprecated in the kernel at all.

nft is very counter intuitive and nowhere near as simple as iptables, actually 
I'd need a day off and then some to learn it. Before someone thinks it it yes I 
know about the conversion tool but that's useless when you know something sucks 
and you just don't want it to begin with.


Cheers,

chillfan

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Re: [DNG] Debian dev takes a break from packaging systemd

[chillfan--- via Dng]

My favourite comment has to be: 
https://github.com/systemd/systemd/issues/11436#issuecomment-454546312

"You seem to suggest that we should never change any user visible detail. I 
think this user rule was in error, and it worked for a while by luck, and now 
it doesn't. This happens all the time."

A configuration worked by luck or was it a bug? Perhaps consulting your daily 
horoscope will let you know if your user configurations will work. Apparently 
that also happens _all_ the time. I wonder if they mean all other software in 
debian or just systemd.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, January 21, 2019 11:42 PM, Alessandro Selli 
 wrote:

> On 22/01/19 at 00:08, wirelessduck--- via Dng wrote:
> 

> > https://soylentnews.org/article.pl?sid=19/01/21/042251
> > 

> > “Michael Biebl, long-time maintainer of systemd for Debian (2010 or 
> > earlier, based on changelog.Debian.gz), is taking undetermined holidays 
> > from packaging it.”
> > 

> > “Will stop maintaining systemd in debian for a while.
> > 

> > What's going on is just too stupid/crazy.”
> 

> This takes place after he discussed a bug in which he expected systemd to 
> respect local settings, and not rename network devices:
> 

> > > > @yuwata a default policy like /lib/systemd/network/99-default.link 
> > > > should never trump explicit user configuration.
> 

> Later he seems surprised about how things roll there:
> 

> > > > I'm amazed that I have to point this out
> 

>   Yes, it's amazing.
> 

>   Even more amazing is that such a software was almost universally adopted as 
> a key piece of the OS.
> 

> -- 

> Alessandro Selli 
> VOIP SIP: dhatarat...@ekiga.net
> Chiave firma e cifratura PGP/GPG signing and encoding key:
>   BA651E4050DDFC31E17384BABCE7BD1A1B0DF2AE



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Re: [DNG] Fwd: Re: What should an Install Guide accomplish?

[chillfan--- via Dng]

I can only agree with that.

My reservations about doing this are mostly been because of our target 
audience, and not wanting to exclude the more savvy users.

But there's nothing wrong with doing this in a side project that wouldn't go on 
the main website.

Cheers,

chillfan


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Wednesday, January 2, 2019 2:11 AM,  wrote:


> 

> Feel free to open a project in our gitlab for us to review.
> 



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Re: [DNG] What should an Install Guide accomplish?

[chillfan--- via Dng]

Historically the community has always responded to things that are minimal and 
simple, and not so much to things that are bloated or windowsy, or similar. 
Imho, a reason why a new user might look to Devuan could be because it's less 
like windows than some of the others, and the community supports the goal of 
simpler living with your OS.

Actually, I think these problems should be solved just not directly in Devuan. 
If there comes a time when someone creates a spin specifically for new users, 
that would solve all those problems.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 11:34 PM, Michael 
 wrote:

> Hi golinux and everyone else,
> 

> Okay, I’m breaking this topic off from the ‘Added desktop-live to the install
> guides’ as it seems we have a much higher, philosophical level decision to
> make before we can continue with editing the Devuan Install Guide. Which is:
> 

> == What should an Install Guide accomplish?
> 

> #
> 

> ==
> 

> My take is that an Install Guide is a complete set of instructions that a
> person can follow to fully accomplish the task. There are no ambiguities
> presented to the user, as it is literally do step a), do step b), do step
> c) ...
> 

> Each step should be fully explained and if there is more than one primary
> method of doing any of the steps, then each method is explained. In this
> case my take is that both Nix and Windows instructions should be available.
> 

> # Minor points
> 

> ===
> 

> = I am fully against against repeating any information on a website. As doing
> so almost always leads to discrepancies between the difference sources. If
> the Devuan site is using a CMS of some sort, then a single source should be
> able to be created and block inclusions can be then placed anywhere else on
> the site as needed. [1]
> 

> = I do think that anything a user needs to know to make an intelligent
> decision should be either on the page or directly linked to. If linked to,
> then clicking the link should not close or overwrite the Install Guide page.
> 

> = For an Install Guide I’m against ‘Minimalism.’ My feeling is that not
> giving total, and literally an over abundance of information, not only
> directly inhibits and stops people from doing the Install, but also creates
> vast negative word of mouth from those who attempt the Install but can’t
> complete it because they aren’t given enough information to physically be
> able to follow it.
> 

> = If golinux agrees to ‘an over abundance of information approach,’ I have no
> issue re-writing the whole guide. (As you may have noticed I’m a bit gabby.)
> I will need someone with a Windows box to QC those instructions.
> 

> #
> 

> ==
> 

> Okay, that’s my fairly opinionated opinion. I think ultimately this is
> golinux’s decision, but please everyone else jump in with yea’s, nay’s, and
> what you think the answer to the question is ;) Also, please don’t feel shy
> about bringing up what you think the ramifications might be for the different
> options/opinions/methods. I bring this last point up, as I have a gut feel
> that if we come to agreement on the ramifications, then we’ll have
> our ‘decision’ per say made for us.
> 

> Best Regards All and Happy New Year!,
> Michael
> 

> PS: golinux, my full apologies if I’ve stepped on your toes :( and/or
> exceeded what you’re willing to take under discussion.
> 

> [1] I host and manage Drupal (CMS) websites, this generally takes 10 minutes
> to setup. I can discuss this offline with whoever as desired.
> 

> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng



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Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides

[chillfan--- via Dng]

I was thinking about wether this would be useful too. If I remember I didn't do 
this with the original guide because unetbootin has more than one way of doing 
things, which may just confuse users. But if they did include Devuan as a 
target that might solve the issue, depending what people think on using 
unetbootin.

Cheers,

chillfan


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 9:25 PM, info at smallinnovations dot nl 
 wrote:

> On 01-01-19 22:04, chillfan--- via Dng wrote:
> 

> > Validating the images is optional but I think it's useful to tell people 
> > how this is done for those that want it. That part could easily be 
> > rewritten to be optional and a recommendation only. That's my suggestion 
> > for this anyway. So something like:
> > Installation images distributed by Devuan are signed so that they can be 
> > verified as coming from Devuan. As an optional step you can verify images 
> > to let you know they have not been altered prior to you receiving them.
> > My preference would be for us not to repeat ourselves on the website in 
> > favour of simplicity, and instead just link to what we need in the intro.
> > About dd, I think that should be mentioned because otherwise users will 
> > look elsewhere and when it doesn't work they'll think our images are broken 
> > (this issue has come up before). So for users convenience and to be sure 
> > they are using dd correctly, we should provide those instructions.
> > Whilst we will have more information and documentation for new users, I 
> > don't think we should write Windows guides. I think that would lead us more 
> > in the direction of ubuntu and others who adopted systemd.
> > Cheers,
> > chillfan
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 7:51 PM, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> 

> We do not have to write specific Windows guides to mention Unetbootin
> which will work for Linux, Windows and Mac.
> 

> Of course we will have to tell the authors of Unetbootin to add Devuan
> to the pre-selected distros to make it complete.
> 

> Grtz.
> 

> Nick



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Re: [DNG] Added desktop-live to the install guides

[chillfan--- via Dng]

Validating the images is optional but I think it's useful to tell people how 
this is done for those that want it. That part could easily be rewritten to be 
optional and a recommendation only. That's my suggestion for this anyway. So 
something like:

Installation images distributed by Devuan are signed so that they can be 
verified as coming from Devuan. As an optional step you can verify images to 
let you know they have not been altered prior to you receiving them.

My preference would be for us not to repeat ourselves on the website in favour 
of simplicity, and instead just link to what we need in the intro.

About dd, I think that should be mentioned because otherwise users will look 
elsewhere and when it doesn't work they'll think our images are broken (this 
issue has come up before). So for users convenience and to be sure they are 
using dd correctly, we should provide those instructions.

Whilst we will have more information and documentation for new users, I don't 
think we should write Windows guides. I think that would lead us more in the 
direction of ubuntu and others who adopted systemd.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, January 1, 2019 7:51 PM,  wrote:

> Hi Michael,
> 

> Thanks for your thoughtful and detailed comments. Response inline
> below.
> 

> On 2019-01-01 09:46, Michael wrote:
> 

> > On Tuesday 01 January 2019 03:46:52 am goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> > 

> > > tweaking the install guides and adding one for the desktop-live gui
> > > install. You can start here:
> > > https://beta.devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/start-here.html
> > 

> > Hi golinux,
> > These thoughts are from the angle of helping someone who’s never done
> > an
> > install of any OS before. My guess is most people haven’t, as when
> > buying a
> > new computer the OS is almost always already installed now days.
> > I’ve added stubs where I can, but do edit for better user clarity!
> > 

> > #
> > 

> > ==
> > 

> > # Sections to Add:
> > 

> > ===
> > 

> > = Which Release version is right for me?
> > Explain when/why they should choose ASCII or Jessie.
> > = {Explanation of the .iso naming scheme}
> > devuan_ascii_2.0.0_amd64_netinst.iso
> > ^^^ Who we are!
> > ^^^ The Release name
> > ^^^ The architecture
> > ^^^ The Installation image
> > Needs fixed width to line up properly...
> > = {Pathing walk through of how to find the right .iso}
> 

> This useful information is beyond the scope of these INSTALL guides. But
> there are already pages on the website that cover much of it. Does it
> really need to be repeated?
> https://devuan.org/os/releases
> https://devuan.org/os/filenaming
> 

> > # Section: Supported architectures
> > 

> > ===
> > 

> > Define what both of these mean.
> > amd64: 64-bit CPUs, used for both Intel and AMD consumer level CPUs.
> > I386: 32-bit CPUs, ???
> 

> Again not really appropriate for the INSTALL guides. Hardware is s
> not my thing. If someone wants to do a write up, we can find a place for
> it somewhere on the website.
> 

> > # Section: Installation images
> > 

> > ===
> > 

> > Rename to “What Installation image should I chose?”
> 

> There has to be a more concise way of saying that. ;) Minimalism rules
> here. ;)
> 

> > Add Subsection: One install with access to the Internet?
> > Use the `*_netinst.iso` which will install a base system then download
> > the
> > remaining packages during the installation process.
> > Add Subsection: Multiple installs or no access to the Internet during
> > install?
> > Choose the single `*_dvd-1.iso`. The image contains several desktop
> > choices
> > and additional software options. ...
> 

> That information is already on the index and get-devuan pages of the
> website as well as one of the links posted above. Those who will not
> seek will not find.
> 

> > # Section: Check the integrity of images
> > 

> > =
> > 

> > Add how to for Windows. You can probably swipe Fedora’s? But someone
> > would
> > need to check both copyright concerns and that the instructions work.
> > https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/Fedora/18/html/Burning_ISO_images_to_disc/sect-Burning_ISO_images_to_disc-Validating_the_Files-Validating_at_the_Windows_Command_Prompt.html
> 

> Could you possibly provide that information for inclusion?
> 

> > # Check the integrity of images Vs. Verify the images
> &g

Re: [DNG] Admins can you fix/set the header overrides?

[chillfan via Dng]

I can confirm that I haven't set a reply-to header, but this is just a web 
mail. It could be that my webmail provider just doesn't allow me to unset the 
header, but I haven't looked that far into it.


Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Wednesday, December 26, 2018 4:07 PM, Michael 
 wrote:

> On Wednesday 26 December 2018 03:24:24 am Antony Stone wrote:
> 

> > Argh. Sending to the list this time.
> > Please don't set "Reply-to" on list emails.
> > Antony.
> 

> I’m pretty sure the individuals aren’t doing it explicitly. This list just
> doesn’t seem to create, or override really, the headers quite right. Some
> messages here I hit reply (like this one) and the proper “To:
> dng@lists.dyne.org” shows up, on others someone’s name is populated in the
> To: box. Other lists, you hit reply and To: is always populated correctly.
> 

> golinux?, other admins?, is there a config option somewhere in the backend
> to ‘fix’ this?
> 

> Best,
> Michael
> 

> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng



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Re: [DNG] Website changes

[chillfan via Dng]

The contents on github are now slightly behind what we prepared for the website 
as the links point to the jessie torrent (I will fix that in the next push 
soon). Translations should be in good order aside from that.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, December 24, 2018 6:35 PM,  wrote:

> On 2018-12-24 11:53, Gastón via Dng wrote:
> 

> > On Sun, Dec 23, 2018 at 01:04:54PM -0600, goli...@dyne.org wrote:
> > 

> > > Greetings!
> > > Some changes are being made to the Devuan website as a result of
> > > recent
> > > discussions on this list and the dev1galaxy forum.
> > > 

> > > 1.  One user commented that they had no idea which iso to choose. So
> > > descriptions of the Devuan isos have been added to:
> > > 

> > > 

> > > https://devuan.org/ (mid-page)
> > > https://devuan.org/get-devuan (top of the page)
> > 

> > Good job! :-)
> 

> Thanks.
> 

> > > 2.  Others found the installation process challenging so thanks to
> > > chillfan
> > > "Visual guides" with screenshots for both a classic install and a
> > > graphical
> > > install can be found below the mirror list on the "get-devuan" page.
> > > Instructions for disk encryption are linked to and back to the the
> > > appropriate place in the tutorials:
> > > 

> > > 

> > > https://devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/install-devuan.html
> > > https://devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/full-disk-encryption.html
> > > https://devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/graphic-install.html
> > > https://devuan.org/os/documentation/install-guides/graphic-disk-encryption.html
> > 

> > The versions of these pages using the translations, are or will be
> > available as well?
> 

> There are some translations on chillfan/dev1fanboy's wiki pages at:
> https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan
> but I'm not sure how current they are. Perhaps he can clarify. If they
> are, we can certainly add links to them. Additional translations are
> always most welcome. Thanks for the suggestion.
> 

> golinux
> 

> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
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Re: [DNG] ifstat.eth0 on Boot

[chillfan via Dng]

How new is the laptop? What is the model of network card?

Without knowing anything about your hardware or configuration I would first 
check no other device like wireless is trying to connect.

If it's not and the router/dhcp is definitely not doing something stupid:

Then probably you should check your bios for helpful settings, and then try 
installing firmware in /lib/firmware for your device, like linux-firmware-free 
or linux-firmware-nonfree from the repo. Or use a backported kernel.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Friday, December 7, 2018 11:45 AM, Michael K.  wrote:

> ¡Ola!
> 

> After a Dev1 Setup on a Laptop (whit eth0), i have to wait a long time
> for the eth0 on "cold boot".
> 

> I "cold boot" my Laptop
> I look to the "Boot Messages"
> I see the following Msg:
> 

> Configuring Network Interfaces ifup: Waiting for Lock on
> /run/network/ifstat.eth0
> 

> After 2 or 3 minutes to wait, the Laptop boot up,
> 

> In the folder /run/network/ i have - after the "long to wait boot":
> 

> ifstat (content: eth0=eth0 and lo=lo
> ifstat.eth0 (content: eth0 )
> ifstat.lo (content: lo )
> ifstat.lock (content: empty )
> 

> The Packet: ifstat (1.1-8.1) current not installed!
> 

> What must i do to speed up my Dev1 Boot ?!
> 

> Thanks
> Michael
> 

> -
> 

> GnuPG Fingerprint: CF03 FC32 381F 7D6C 1734 8641 E4D8 5081 5E05 B5AE
> https://www.justice4assange.com/



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Re: [DNG] [OT] The End of Trust

[chillfan]

I'd agree with that. We're more aware so we see more of it going forward, but 
it's definitely getting worse.

Developers and admins can play a role in helping users who don't know much 
about tech, but I think standards all-round just need to be fixed so that some 
of that work isn't necessary.

About javascript, I think it would be better for responsible people not to use 
it on websites at all or only using it where it's actually needed. It would be 
a mess still, but at least it would be manageable.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, December 4, 2018 11:08 AM, Andres Suarez 
 wrote:

> It's just becoming more open and cynic. My cellphone is already turning
> my private OFFLINE conversations into ad-topics.
> 

> The thing is, in this times (and what follows) there's some people who
> can do something for self-defence, and many others who can't and/or
> will never acknowledge what is happening.
> 

> ---
> 

> Andres Suarez
> Mobile +79310009732

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Re: [DNG] Well, this is interesting

[chillfan]

Hah. If you have salt a butter, then yes.

Personally feel like they can fight over cloud all they want, there are so many 
storage solutions available.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, October 30, 2018 4:00 PM,  wrote:

> Obviously this has to have been planned in advance so not a specific
> response to the HatRed deal. But interesting timing nonetheless. The
> battle for the cloud is heating up . . .
>
> Popcorn?
>
> gl
>
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
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Re: [DNG] Speak now, or forever hold your peace

[chillfan]

I like the idea of logs being in /var/log by default.

But it would be great if this was modular so that we could disable this default 
behaviour, or even do without a logger package installed. So perhaps a switch 
to change this default behaviour, so that the logger is just a recommended 
package.

Cheers,

chillfan
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Re: [DNG] Plasyonlinux; is anyone successfully using it?

[chillfan]

When something graphical suddenly stops working it's likely an update was the 
cause. E.g when the kernel or a library was updated but a graphics driver was 
not.

POL is just a frontend to wine, and I can say I was satisfied with how both 
wine and POL are working on Devuan ASCII.

I think you'll be fine there.

Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On July 8, 2018 4:24 AM, terryc ter...@woa.com.au wrote:

> As per subject, is anyone sucessfully using PlayOnLinux?
> My POl installation on Debian wheezy/stretch was stuffed due to
> graphics related problems and I was only able to fix some basic stuff
> prior to upgrading to Devuan-Ascii.
> Now I'd like to get it working again and it would motivate if other
> people can confirm that they have it working. I don't see any reason
> for it not working, but worth checking.
> T.i.A
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
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Re: [DNG] [OT] donate to Slackware

[chillfan]

IMHO

As a distro I don't give much thought to Slackware despite it being a simple 
and quality distro. I've always needed dependencies resolved right from the 
installer.

But I think it's in our interest to help since they do maintain a popular 
systemd free distro there. If nothing else then just pointing out the troubles 
they have.

The less systemd-free distros we have, the more upstream is going to be pushed 
into non optional systemd support.

Cheers,

chillfan
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Re: [DNG] This is a losing battle, against the propaganda of redhat.

[chillfan]

Imo this is not a losing battle. The ascii release is a win for many with the 
increased desktop support.

The propaganda is a battle of it's own. A corporation will have an upper hand 
there, but a bigger issue is the belief systemd will make Linux popular on the 
desktop.

The bigger issue remains as it has always been, lack of platform support for 
games and other popular applications that have little to do with init.

Note that I deliberately didn't call systemd GNU/Linux, as it doesn't leave 
much of GNU left. Imho an important point against the propoganda is that it's a 
very different OS.

Cheers,

chillfan


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Re: [DNG] Switching to OpenRC

[chillfan]

Afaik openrc is compatible with the init scripts used by all packages. 
Installing it and rebooting should be enough to start using openrc. It worked 
OK for me when I tested it.

This is probably possible on Jessie as well but I haven't tested that.

​Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On May 14, 2018 1:52 AM, <wirelessd...@gmail.com> wrote:

> I’ve read that the ascii RC has optional support for OpenRC. How can I switch 
> to this on an existing system to try it out?
> 
> Is it simply a matter of running “apt-get install openrc”?
> 
> If I switch, will I have to create new service definition files for each 
> existing daemon in /etc/init.d or can it read and reuse those files 
> automatically?
> 
> Are there any good tutorials out there on using it, aside from the Gentoo 
> documentation?
> 
> Thanks
> 
> —Tom
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[chillfan]

I never thought of it that way, now it's mentioned that seems exactly right to 
me. Again with flash, I felt this was always pushed by commercial entitites 
because it was convenient for advertisers and trackers. You basically "needed" 
it then it was used to shove ads in your face.

Some of us have started working on documenting the alternatives here:

https://friendsofdevuan.org/doku.php/community:alternative_browsers

My favourites so far are uzbl, and netsurf.. and anything that doesn't require 
a login works well with lynx or w3m.

​Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On May 12, 2018 9:21 PM, taii...@gmx.com <taii...@gmx.com> wrote:

> On 05/05/2018 03:13 PM, Rick Moen wrote:
> 
> > Quoting chill...@protonmail.com (chill...@protonmail.com):
> > 
> > > At minimum, I'd like to see browsers blocking certain possibilities
> > > from javascript. 
> > 
> > This isn't going to be provided in the default configurations of major
> > Web browsers because the firms producing and supporting them are
> > financially supported by firms funded by Internet advertising and user
> > tracking.
> 
> Yeah, it is the same reason as to why there is almost zero publicity about 
> browser fingerprinting nor any effort to properly address it only bullshit 
> "private browsing mode" "tracking protection" etc that doesn't actually stop 
> the latest and most high tech forms of tracking users.


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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[chillfan]

I would mostly agree with the point you're driving at, though I don't think I 
would blame individuals who use javascript responsibly.

javascript is much like flash player in that sense, widespread use and used in 
situations where it's not useful or needed (read: abused).

IMHO, I  think there should be a simpler replacement for javascript that can't 
be bloated to begin with.

At minimum, I'd like to see browsers blocking certain possibilities from 
javascript. Much like privoxys js-annoyances filter, or similar to the way 
librejs works allowing only trivial stuff.

Yes, I think we wouldn't need powerful cpus for most every day usages then.

​Cheers,

chillfan

> However, like the people who
> 
> join facebook, your actions have a network effect - making it
> 
> harder for those who want to do the right thing to stay away
> 
> from harmful "technologies".

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Re: [DNG] Firefox does analytics in browser

[chillfan]

I think another issue is that pointing the finger at facebook is a good cover 
for implementing features users would otherwise object to and strongly.
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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[chillfan]

If they used the term "free" it would feel less hyped to me since free software 
may bundle with blobs at times.

But anyway here's a couple of devices not affected by the problems in this 
thread and supported by Devuan:

EOMA68, shipping a version with Devuan when complete. 
Banana PI
Banana Pro

ARM Cortex A7 is not yet known affected by any spectre/meltdown, and some of 
those boards can run only free software (needs research on each board, wifi is 
usually blobbed). If blobs aren't a concern then probably any Cortex A7 is OK 
for avoiding most of the bugs.

I think ARM is an OK move if it can meet the performance needs of what it 
replaces.

​Cheers,

chillfan


> My issue with purism isn't their selling products not 100% free it is
> 
> their dishonest marketing that equates a computer with an entirely
> 
> blobbed hardware initiation process to be "running libre open source
> 
> firmware" "all chips hand selected to protect your privacy and freedom"
> 
> and implying endorsement from the FSF and RMS which is very dishonest.

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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[chillfan]

I would agree that I don't want to bash them, I think it's better to just 
explain that a blob still exists in those products and the problems with the 
modems.

​Cheers,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On May 4, 2018 10:52 PM, Daniel Abrecht <d...@danielabrecht.ch> wrote:

> -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
> 
> Hash: SHA256
> 
> On 2018-05-04 20:03, Rick Moen wrote:
> 
> > > Librem 5 phone coming next year for me.
> > > 
> > > Ah, Librem. Let's see:
> > > 
> > > https://web.archive.org/web/20161010040458/https://blogs.coreboot.org/
> 
> blog/2015/02/23/the-truth-about-purism-why-librem-is-not-the-same-as-lib
> 
> re/
> 
> > 
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20161010100959/https://blogs.coreboot.org/bl
> 
> og/2015/08/09/the-truth-about-purism-behind-the-coreboot-scenes/
> 
> > Internet Archive links because someone (guess who?) raised a stink,
> > 
> > and Alex Gagniuc's comments were then taken down.
> 
> I've ordered a librem 5 phone too. I'm really annoyed by the very few
> 
> people that go to great lengths just to badmouth those who give their
> 
> best to make products as good, libre, and user respecting as possible
> 
> for them, just over some minor details. There is no such thing as a
> 
> perfect system after all, and there are a lot of companies that are
> 
> actually evil, to which raising awareness would help much more than
> 
> complaining about those that do make a step in the right direction.
> 
> Also, as far as I know, there is no other phone which:
> 
> -   Doesn't use gralloc and allows me to install any normal linux
> 
> distro I want, not just ones for phones
> 
> -   Does care at all about privacy, for example by including physical
> 
> kill switches
> 
> -   Provides development kits & documentation
> 
> I can't speak for other people, but I prefer to do have a somewhat
> 
> good and libre phone that I can control over no phone or phones I
> 
> can't use the way I want them to.
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Daniel Abrecht

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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[chillfan]

Well that's only my method of dealing with it.. generally I think it's worth 
waiting for them to properly fix some problems first. At least then people vote 
for what they want from them based on what they're prepared to buy.

Likely next build for me is ASUS KGPE-D16 with libreboot, I'll still get hit 
with a reasonable portion of those bugs but at least not as many as on intel.

​Cheers,

chillfan

 
> I've been trying that for a while now, but my server is starting to
> 
> fail.
> 
> It may not be an option unless I want to get out of computing
> 
> altogether.
> 
> -- hendrik
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


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[DNG] Firefox does analytics in browser

[chillfan]

I noticed this hasn't come up yet. 

https://www.theregister.co.uk/2018/05/01/sponsored_links_come_to_firefox/

So, it would look like people have only until ESR changes then they'll be stuck 
with that problem, at least for the US builds unless they can do it for 
everyone.

​Cheers,

chillfan
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Re: [DNG] It's far from being over. Sigh!

[chillfan]

I'd prefer to see chips from scratch, rather than patching on features late in 
the game. We can be pretty sure chip makers will only patch problems as they 
are found instead of redesigning their chips to prevent future problems.

My reaction to the situation is that I'll no longer buy new hardware at all. 
Everything I buy now is second user, until I see chip makers pulling their 
finger out and doing what really needs doing.

On top of that I'll only buy hardware that can be free software down to the 
bios. It should be nothing to them what runs in the bios, so I'll wait and see 
if they can be more flexible there (for however long it takes).

Time to hold them all accountable I think.

Cheers,

chillfan


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On May 3, 2018 8:22 PM, Alessandro Selli <alessandrose...@linux.com> wrote:

> https://www.reuters.com/article/us-cyber-intel/next-generation-flaws-found-on-computer-processors-magazine-idUSKBN1I42BZ
> 
> May 3, 2018
> 
> FRANKFURT (Reuters) - Researchers have found eight new flaws in computer
> 
> central processing units that resemble the Meltdown and Spectre bugs
> 
> revealed in January, a German computing magazine reported on Thursday.
> 
> The magazine, called c’t, said it was aware of Intel Corp’s plans to patch
> 
> the flaws, adding that some chips designed by ARM Holdings, a unit of
> 
> Japan’s Softbank, might be affected, while work was continuing to establish
> 
> whether Advanced Micro Devices chips were vulnerable.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Alessandro Selli
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


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Re: [DNG] Jessie-backports now has spectre patched kernel

[chillfan]

Whilst the kernels look to have been patched properly afaict (using the 
backported 4.9 kernel in Jessie), Debian doesn't make it clear if they will 
rebuild the whole archive yet.

https://wiki.debian.org/DebianSecurity/SpectreMeltdown

"No archive rebuild is planned at this point .."

I'm no expert in this, but it would seem better to me if they did rebuild.

​Thanks,

chillfan
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Re: [DNG] Jessie-backports now has spectre patched kernel

[chillfan]

Great, thanks for the news. 

I'm hoping Debian will do a full rebuild to compile everything with reptoline, 
as this seems a lot better to me than just mitigating when a specific problem 
is found.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On April 22, 2018 8:23 PM, Jimmy Johnson  wrote:

> 4.9.0-0.bpo.6-amd64 is patched, tested on AMD and Intel - Variant 1,2
> 
> and 3 patched.
> 
> Cheers!
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Jimmy Johnson
> 
> Devuan Jessie - KDE 4.14.2 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda5
> 
> Registered Linux User #380263
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


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[DNG] Fw: Devuan on ARM Notebooks

[chillfan]

PS: 

I'm not sure how you would install to the internal storage for some of those 
devices, I was unable to do this on c201 yet so it might be tricky.
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Re: [DNG] Devuan on ARM Notebooks

[chillfan]

At least two of the ASUS Chromebooks can be used with the embedded images on 
files.devuan.org//embedded/

The two are:

acer chromebook (chomeacer.img.xz)
Veyron/rockchip (chromeveyron.img.xz)

I'm not familiar with all the models (wikipedia may help), but I can tell you 
veyron works on the ASUS chromebook c201 (it's coreboot and optionally 
libreboot if you install it).

There is also devsus by dimkr which is a libre Devuan build script for the c201:

https://notabug.org/dimkr/devsus but currently pending a merge request to fix 
some issues so see: https://notabug.org/chillfan/devsus-ascii and go with the 
master branch (jessie) which should be working right now.

​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On April 23, 2018 10:45 AM, J. Fahrner <j...@fahrner.name> wrote:

> Hi all,
> 
> is there a list which ARM notebooks (Pinebook, Chromobook, ...) Devuan
> 
> can run on? (and which image to use for installation)
> 
> Jochen
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


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Re: [DNG] Ubuntu w/out systemd?

[chillfan]

What's the TLDR on TDE? Is it less encumbered with systemd than KDE/Plasma?

​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On April 10, 2018 6:24 AM, Jimmy Johnson <field.engin...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Guys, first my thanks to Timothy who had the foresight to start this
> 
> project and stay with it. Timothy Pearson you rock!
> 
> I test Debian and Ubuntu KDE for more than 20yrs, but no more I'm
> 
> leaving Plasma and Systemd, they take the Happy out of Camping and
> 
> computing too.
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Re: [DNG] Ubuntu w/out systemd?

[chillfan]

If you like that sort of thing.. 

http://exegnulinux.net/

Is a Devuan based distro using Trinity DE out of the box.

So I think that would be your go to easy option for that. Looks updated as of 
December just gone.

Other than that you can use KDE or MATE on Devuan ascii beta, if you're looking 
for something bigger. Depends on your requirements.

​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On April 10, 2018 6:24 AM, Jimmy Johnson <field.engin...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hey Guys, first my thanks to Timothy who had the foresight to start this
> 
> project and stay with it. Timothy Pearson you rock!
> 
> I test Debian and Ubuntu KDE for more than 20yrs, but no more I'm
> 
> leaving Plasma and Systemd, they take the Happy out of Camping and
> 
> computing too.
> 
> I'm looking for a distro that features TDE-Trinity, based on Ubuntu with
> 
> No-Systemd, or better yet something similar to Devuan where you can do a
> 
> base install and add TDE-Trinity, anybody working on this? I'm willing
> 
> to test .iso's.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> 
> --
> 
> Jimmy Johnson
> 
> Devuan ASCII - TDE Trinity R14.0.5 - AMD A8-7600 - EXT4 at sda6
> 
> Registered Linux User #380263
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


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Re: [DNG] Mozilla is at it again - Firefox nightly sends all your hostname lookups to cloudflare

[chillfan]

I've not paid attention to Red Hat since FC1, so I have no idea what the issues 
are there. That's a whole different can of worms anyway.

If someone is happy to rebrand then it's fine. Also I don't mean to put down 
derivatives, I just think a defacto replacement would work out best.

​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On March 31, 2018 5:14 PM, Rick Moen <r...@linuxmafia.com> wrote:

> Quoting chillfan (chill...@protonmail.com):
> 
> > I think it was important to point this situation out. If distributing
> > 
> > free software can potentially get you into a legal situation this
> > 
> > quickly, then it's just not worth the headache that follows.
> 
> So, you're saying that CentOS and Scientific Linux are not safe to
> 
> distribute? (I thought the problem with RHEL rebuilds is that they're
> 
> kind of, you know, Red Hattish. ;-> )
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


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Re: [DNG] Mozilla is at it again - Firefox nightly sends all your hostname lookups to cloudflare

[chillfan]

I think it was important to point this situation out. If distributing free 
software can potentially get you into a legal situation this quickly, then it's 
just not worth the headache that follows.

IMHO..

The primary reason for searching for an alternative to firefox is not that it 
sucks but because they are no longer the banner for freedom we once enjoyed 
getting behind. That's actually what's really been missing here, which goes as 
far back to the ads in tabs (and DRM/EME) situation.

The only thing I can see working, is if developers are happy to remove features 
and stop rebasing most of their work on firefox and syncing up with their 
codebase. That and starting a project with a clear goal to protect user freedom 
and privacy.

​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On March 31, 2018 2:52 AM, Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com> wrote:

[quote]

> But to me, vendors matter, and I won't use software
> 
> from somebody as douchatudenous as this guy. He makes Linus and Lennart
> 
> look like pleasant people.
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt


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Re: [DNG] Mozilla is at it again - Firefox nightly sends all your hostname lookups to cloudflare

[chillfan]

That's interesting. Perhaps it was best I didn't get palemoon building 
correctly, I was under the impression they had changed to a more friendly 
approach with their official branding.

So that would make Palemoon builds even more difficult there.

​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On March 30, 2018 3:28 PM, Steve Litt <sl...@troubleshooters.com> wrote:

> Here's why I wouldn't use Palemoon if it were the last browser on earth:
> 
> https://github.com/jasperla/openbsd-wip/issues/86
> 
> By the way, a little research on USPTO shows they have no registered
> 
> trademark on "Palemoon". For somebody so lawyerly threatening, he sure
> 
> hasn't dotted his i's and crossed his t's.
> 
> SteveT
> 
> Steve Litt


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Re: [DNG] Mozilla is at it again - Firefox nightly sends all your hostname lookups to cloudflare

[Chillfan]

I believe so as well, but if I remember the build dependencies given in Steve 
Pussers sources require and fetch (apt-get build-dep) gcc-4.9 so it may be 
right that 4.9 is needed, or it should be built on Jessie. That might be why I 
was having issues with stability.

​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On March 30, 2018 10:40 AM, aitor_czr <aitor_...@gnuinos.org> wrote:

> Hi Hendrik,
> 
> On 30/03/18 11:25, Hendrik Boom wrote:
> 
> > What happens with later versions of gcc?  fails to build, or fails 
> > to function when built?
> 
> There are deb packages for debian 
> 9:https://software.opensuse.org/download.html?project=home:stevenpusser=palemoonSo,
>  palemoon should work on ascii.Cheers,  Aitor.
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Re: [DNG] Mozilla is at it again - Firefox nightly sends all your hostname lookups to cloudflare

[Chillfan]

I suspect if I tried building from palemoon sources, it might be easier to 
figure that out (I will try with your mozconfig some time). In any case Steve 
Pussers builds seem to work reliably and are regularly updated, which makes it 
easy.

The issue I think is when you don't use dbus or pulse, etc but still have the 
support. But I don't think it's good to remove those in a standard built meant 
for everyone.

Interestingly someone pointed to an issue where dbus support would use a lot of 
resources in conjunction with libsdl2 if the dbus daemon isn't available but 
the support library is. So this might be a good reason why someone would want 
to build their own at times.

@hendrik 

I agree that does improve the situation a little bit. I think it would be great 
if there was more of a "hard" fork or more collaboration though.

Afaik the only one removing EME altogether is icecat. I think a tweaked build 
of that would be interesting.

​Thanks,

chillfan

On March 29, 2018 4:42 PM, Jaromil <jaro...@dyne.org> wrote:

> hi Chillfan,
> 
> On Thu, 29 Mar 2018, Chillfan wrote:
> 
> > I agree that a fork is needed, but I think this would be a whole lot of 
> > work.
> 
> yes. forks are a LOT of work. Even Devuan, which I'd say is a
> 
> relatively easy fork, mostly needing work on the infrastructure and
> 
> testing and documentation side, was more demanding than expected.
> 
> > If palemoon offered something akin to extended support releases it
> > 
> > would be a great candidate for that,
> 
> palemoon is stuck at "version 27" series of Firefox and in any case
> 
> its in the 2x series I doubt it can be brought up to 50 since the
> 
> codebase is rather different.
> 
> said that, I'm happy with palemoon, using always the latest stable
> 
> release tagged on the git tree, compiling it myself on Devuan and then
> 
> github.com/dyne/tinfoil for sandboxing. here the mozconfig I use,
> 
> please note I do not disable pulseaudio or dbus, because that gives
> 
> problems, yet I do not use pulseaudio (but I do use dbus...)
> 
> export MOZILLA_OFFICIAL=1
> 
> mk_add_options AUTOCLOBBER=1
> 
> mk_add_options MOZ_CO_PROJECT=browser
> 
> ac_add_options --enable-application=browser
> 
> mk_add_options MOZ_OBJDIR=`pwd`/pmbuild
> 
> ac_add_options --enable-jemalloc
> 
> ac_add_options --enable-jemalloc-lib
> 
> ac_add_options --disable-dbus
> =
> 
> ac_add_options --disable-gstreamer
> 
> ac_add_options --enable-alsa
> 
> ac_add_options --disable-oss
> 
> ac_add_options --enable-pulseaudio
> 
> ac_add_options --disable-necko-wifi
> 
> ac_add_options --enable-official-branding
> 
> ac_add_options --disable-installer
> 
> ac_add_options --disable-updater
> 
> ac_add_options --disable-tests
> 
> ac_add_options --disable-debug
> 
> ac_add_options --disable-mochitest
> 
> ac_add_options --with-pthreads
> 
> ac_add_options --enable-strip
> 
> ac_add_options --enable-optimize="-O2 -march=native -pipe"
> 
> ciao


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Re: [DNG] Mozilla is at it again - Firefox nightly sends all your hostname lookups to cloudflare

[Chillfan]

I agree that a fork is needed, but I think this would be a whole lot of work.

IMHO, it's not enough to just disable features by default or have good 
defaults. The fact they are there to begin with is a similar argument as with 
systemd - we don't want to install these features to begin with, and want a 
smaller browser.

There's a lot of things that should/could be removed - pocket, ebook mode, ads 
in tabs, dbus support, aspell hard dependency (in packages) and especially EME 
features, google safe browsing, health reporting, etc.

A lot of times a forks fall short of taking care of everything, sometimes 
features are built but disabled by default (which is not much better than 
disabling it yourself). AFAIK there's no general purpose fork that takes care 
of *all* the freedom and bloat issues.

If palemoon offered something akin to extended support releases it would be a 
great candidate for that, as it would be suitable for Devuan stable releases. 
From there it would be easy to offer an alternative build from the same source 
package, without some of the stuff we don't like.

I tried building my own palemoon packages recently from Steve Pussers sources, 
and was able to disable dbus and pulse support very easily but sadly my builds 
were very unstable.

​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On March 27, 2018 10:43 PM, taii...@gmx.com <taii...@gmx.com> wrote:


> "Oh but you can opt-out"
> 
> Assuming you even know about it in the first place - and what? you need
> 
> to opt-out of probably thousands of bad things in your life which makes
> 
> such a policy absolute bullshit.
> 
> "If it was opt-in no one would do it and therefo-"
> 
> Yeah no shit - because no one really wants their data collected

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Re: [DNG] Opinion topic by SysV init by Jessie Smith of Distrowatch

[Chillfan]

Quote "I would like to find out what people who are using init, or are 
considering using it, want from their init software."

That's an easy one for me. No new features, just fixes and cleanups. Maybe 
slightly simpler scripting and less hard dependencies would go on my wishlist, 
that's about it.

I thought things were still happening upstream, albeit slowly. Anyway, nice 
point out and good to know this happened.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On March 26, 2018 2:08 AM, leonard ashley  wrote:

> Interesting comments by Jessie Smith regarding sysV init on DW.
> 
> https://distrowatch.com/weekly.php?issue=20180326#opinion
> 
> cheers
> 
> z
> 
> On Sun, Mar 25, 2018 at 8:03 PM, leonard ashley  wrote:
> 
> > Interesting comments by Jessie Smith regarding sysV init on DW.
> > 
> > cheers
> > 
> > z
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Re: [DNG] printing in a D-Bus free system

[Chillfan]

Just as a precursor to this.. I don't consider freebsd an alternative to Devuan 
partly because of freedom related issues since they're happy to accept binary 
only drivers there.

That said there is some simplistic value to freebsd, but they are also using 
dbus where it's not appropriate. I guess that's why you are compiling your own 
software there. My answer to that is if they declare war on blobs and stop 
trying to "be like linux" they'll have a fine OS there.

lol @ about the browser taking longer to compile.. I have no doubt you didn't 
exaggerate this.


​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On 14 March 2018 8:07 PM, J. Fahrner <j...@fahrner.name> wrote:

> Am 2018-03-14 20:50, schrieb Chillfan:
> 
> > This is one of the best tear downs of dbus I've seen.
> > 
> > The thinking seems to be based purely on trends, e.g "You guys are
> > 
> > going with dbus, right? OK let's do that." even if it makes no sense
> > 
> > for the use case.
> 
> I'm exactly with you! Last year I tried a switch to FreeBSD, because I
> 
> was not satisfied with Linux. In german we say "Too many cooks spoil the
> 
> broth". That's what I feel with Linux. In FreeBSD you can compile all
> 
> packages from source. I was shocked seeing the compilation of a stupid
> 
> browser takes a multiple of time than the whole rest of the system! Can
> 
> someone explain, why a stupid web browser takes more resources than the
> 
> whole kernel and user space of a unix system? Whats going wrong there???
> 
> I think we should stop this madness! Back to the roots!
> 
> Jochen
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


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Re: [DNG] Please, provide a means to remove the default wallpapers.

[Chillfan]

Seems to me you're using this as an opportunity to rail on someone. This isn't 
helpful or constructive.

Thanks,

chillfan

> still one of golinux's creations.
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Re: [DNG] Beaglebone black

[Chillfan]

I'll take a look at filing those in the bugtracker.

I've also noticed some issues with vmdebootstrap and debootstrap that makes it 
difficult to build images for these boards (and presumably others).

The --package option that allows adding additional packages does not work. I 
think the debootstrap --include= option may be broken since vmdebootstrap is a 
wrapper to that. Meaning images can't be built properly this way because they 
will lack a kernel image, which is usually included with --package 
linux-image-armmp. 

The only way to build images this way at the moment is to modify the 
debootstrap script.

Assuming you know how to do that you can only build images when using the 
version of vmdebootstrap in Jessie. Trying this with the ascii version fails 
because vmdebootstrap expects systemd to be available for network configuration.

Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On March 11, 2018 6:58 PM, KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote:

> On Sun, Mar 11, 2018 at 02:36:06PM -0400, Chillfan wrote:
> 
> > I think the best way would be to see: https://git.devuan.org/sdk/arm-sdk/ 
> > and open an issue about it there.
> > 
> > I'm also opening a couple of issues about the beaglebone black there having 
> > noticed some problems.
> > 
> > Thanks,
> 
> Please try to use the BTS atbugs.devuan.org (as well?). It's easier
> 
> to keep track of all the bugs relevant to a release if they are in the
> 
> BTS.
> 
> I am having a new go at reportbug, to solve some long-standing
> 
> issues. I hope to have a new package in ascii-proposed and in
> 
> jessie-updates soon.
> 
> My2Cents
> 
> KatolaZ
> 
> \[ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab \]
> 
> \[ "+. katolaz \[at\] freaknet.org \-\-\- katolaz \[at\] yahoo.it \]
> 
> \[ @) http://kalos.mine.nu \-\-\- Devuan GNU + Linux User \]
> 
> \[ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia \-\- GPG: 0B5F062F \]
> 
> \[ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ \]
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
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Re: [DNG] Beaglebone black

[Chillfan]

I think the best way would be to see: https://git.devuan.org/sdk/arm-sdk/ and 
open an issue about it there.

I'm also opening a couple of issues about the beaglebone black there having 
noticed some problems.

​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On March 10, 2018 11:43 AM, <k...@aspodata.se> wrote:

> Hello,
> 
> I hope there are others here who are interested in
> 
> having devuan on Beaglebone black (BBB).
> 
> I'm testing devuan\_ascii\_2.0.0-beta\_armhf\_beagleboneblack.img.xz
> 
> in https://files.devuan.org/devuan_ascii_beta/embedded/ and having some
> 
> problems, I cannot get hdmi to work. Booting with the factory provided
> 
> debian from onboard flash shows that it isn't a hardware problem.
> 
> Any help appreciated.
> 
> Other things I encountered was that the kernel modules was compressed
> 
> and modutils didn't have support for that, so I ended up uncompressing
> 
> every module.
> 
> Also adding g_cdc to /etc/modules and appending
> 
> T1:2345:respawn:/sbin/getty -L ttyGS0 115200 xtem
> 
> to /etc/inittab, made the usb serial port available for incoming calls
> 
> (host system loads cdc_acm and I can use "cu" to connect to
> 
> BBB's usb client port).
> 
> Regards,
> 
> /Karl Hammar
> 
> 
> -
> 
> Aspö Data
> 
> Lilla Aspö 148
> 
> S-742 94 Östhammar
> 
> Sweden
> 
> +46 173 140 57
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


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Re: [DNG] Used *and* free hardware (was: Re: The FSF seems to have finally sold out)

[Chillfan]

IMHO..

Since it's a niche area, the cost of freedom on PC hardware is just too high.

I think low cost SBC's which have less issues ought to get more attention than 
they do. Some of these boards can already run on only free software and in some 
cases users will only miss out on 3d graphics acceleration. Which is to say I 
think this should be mentioned more, and instruction given on how to go about 
excluding the blobs.

If after some time it turns out software fixes are good enough for 
spectre/meltdown on their own without hardware fixes, then libreboot would be a 
good choice. Otherwise a middle of the ground stop-gap would be coreboot with 
microcode updates (provided the cost isn't excessive).

On PureOS, I spoke a little soon about it using systemd. It's Debian based, so 
it might well be but I haven't checked this.

Thanks,

chillfan
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Re: [DNG] Please, provide a means to remove the default wallpapers.

[Chillfan]

One way to remove it all would be:

apt-get purge desktop-base

Or don't install it to begin with.

Try the xfce gradient wallpaper, which is blue. Or..

apt-get install gimp
​
‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On March 9, 2018 8:34 AM, Edward Bartolo edb...@gmail.com wrote:

> Dear All,
> 
> I would like to ask the Devuan Distribution to provide a means to
> 
> permanently remove the purple wallpapers (golinux's creation). I would
> 
> like to have either wallpapers that users can individually choose or
> 
> some light blue/green gradient wallpapers.
> 
> Thank you all.
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
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Re: [DNG] The FSF seems to have finally sold out

[Chillfan]

I see, thanks for clarifying that further.

As far as I've got with the quest for free hardware is ARM Cotex A7 (not 
affected by spectre) on the allwinner boards with the Mali GPU, which seems 
like an OK solution if 3d acceleration won't be used or the mali free driver 
project works out.

I'll take a look a the T2 and see if that's viable for me on the desktop, 
thanks for the info.


‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On March 10, 2018 8:46 AM, taii...@gmx.com taii...@gmx.com wrote:

> I still have not received an answer from the FSF about if purism will be
> 
> allowed to fraudulently market their products at libreplanet, they avoid
> 
> the question as if I never asked it whilst answering my other questions.
> 
> What a shame - blobbed firmware is not "open source firmware" and the
> 
> "LibreM" is NOT libre hardware.
> 
> On 03/10/2018 02:51 AM, Chillfan wrote:
> 
> > Since Purism have created a fully libre distribution
> 
> You listen to their marketing too much :'\[
> 
> They haven't created anything it is literally just a debian clone with
> 
> minor modifications to make it seem unique to the layman.
> 
> I like the edited roadmap better.
> 
> https://goblinrefuge.com/mediagoblin/u/onpon4/m/what-purism-s-road-to-fsf-ryf-endorsement-chart-should-look-like/
> 
> > it seems like that would be the reason for having a seat there. Not that 
> > I'm saying you're wrong here - it's important that hardware with binary 
> > only blobs are not endorsed by anyone as free hardware.
> > 
> > It's true that they disable ME in their laptops according to all accounts 
> > anyway.
> 
> No it isn't - the ME kernel and mask ROM still runs they simply take the
> 
> NSA/intel at its word when they say the HAP bit shuts off ME post kernel
> 
> boot.
> 
> Remove the ME ROM from purisms blobbed coreboot and the system will shut
> 
> off after 30 minutes, physically disconnect the ME processor and the
> 
> system won't work at all thus not disabled.
> 
> They have plenty of shills that would tell you otherwise, which is why
> 
> you should talk to a real hardware engineer about this and similar
> 
> matters instead.
> 
> > Afaik it's not fully possible to remove intel ME yet, just disable it (or 
> > so we think) and tinker with the partitions. By definition that 
> > disqualifies them as producing free or libre hardware or even being certain 
> > ME isn't still doing something.
> 
> Removed would be physically disconnect whereas disabled would be simply
> 
> not running like the pre-core series thinkpads where the ME ROM is not
> 
> included but the system is still allowed to boot and stay on past 30
> 
> minutes.
> 
> I doubt intel will allow ME cleaner's nerfing mechanism to work for
> 
> long, I seriously can't believe purism thinks they can make a successful
> 
> company on something that could change instantly.
> 
> > Also I haven't heard of Novena/Talos until now despite being on the lookout 
> > so you may have a point there. Afaict it's only crowd funding or pre order 
> > so far, what's the TLDR? Any others around?
> 
> Both are real shipping products for once.
> 
> The TALOS 2 board/cpu costs less than a non-free intel xeon system with
> 
> comparable performance and features - the T2 has libre firmware for both
> 
> the board and bmc plus zero hardware code signing enforcement including
> 
> cpu microcode.
> 
> The TALOS 2 was on display at FOSDEM, go look up the pics :D the massive
> 
> heatsinks are for the high end 24 core CPU (4 SMT threads per core)
> 
> POWER9 has the general stuff power users have come to expect from a
> 
> modern workstation such as POWER-KVM, IOMMU with IOMMU-GFX, CAPI, PCI-e
> 
> 4.0 and IBM OpenBMC.
> 
> If you are familiar with the facebook OpenBMC that was recently ported
> 
> to the KGPE-D16 and KCMA-D8 boards IBM's is different in that it is more
> 
> advanced with more features.
> 
> Unfortunately for some reason the tech media only issues glorified press
> 
> releases these days they don't do real research anymore - I have a few
> 
> systems running raptor's libre firmware and even I had no idea it
> 
> existed until recently.
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Re: [DNG] The FSF seems to have finally sold out

[Chillfan]

Since Purism have created a fully libre distribution, it seems like that would 
be the reason for having a seat there. Not that I'm saying you're wrong here - 
it's important that hardware with binary only blobs are not endorsed by anyone 
as free hardware.

It's true that they disable ME in their laptops according to all accounts 
anyway. Afaik it's not fully possible to remove intel ME yet, just disable it 
(or so we think) and tinker with the partitions. By definition that 
disqualifies them as producing free or libre hardware or even being certain ME 
isn't still doing something.

Also I haven't heard of Novena/Talos until now despite being on the lookout so 
you may have a point there. Afaict it's only crowd funding or pre order so far, 
what's the TLDR? Any others around?

Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On March 7, 2018 11:05 PM, taii...@gmx.com taii...@gmx.com wrote:

> In exchange for money they are now advertising and endorsing a maker of
> 
> fake libre hardware by letting them have a booth at libreplanet an
> 
> endorsing their debian copy "PureOS"
> 
> https://libreplanet.org/2018/sponsors
> 
> "Grassroots: Purism, makers of fine free hardware"
> 
> Purism is NOT free hardware and certainly not "grassroots" as their
> 
> mysterious founder somehow has a bottomless pit of money to burn on
> 
> hardware costs and propaganda campaigns.
> 
> Purism donates to their own crowd-funding campaigns to make them seem
> 
> more successful and whenever negative facts about them are posted on the
> 
> internet some random guy shows up to insist that the person is mistaken.
> 
> I encourage everyone who cares about the future of free computing to
> 
> contact the FSF about this.
> 
> Here are posts that help explain the purism situation better than I can.
> 
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/3anjgm/on_the_librem_laptop_purism_doesnt_believe_in/
> 
> While purism's newer laptops come with "coreboot" all the hardware
> 
> initiation is performed by Intel's FSP binary blob, and while they claim
> 
> to have "disabled" ME (by running ME cleaner which they didn't make)
> 
> they have not as disabling ME is both impossible and illegal.
> 
> (archived due to the powers that be removing these posts after receiving
> 
> political pressure)
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20161010040458/https://blogs.coreboot.org/blog/2015/02/23/the-truth-about-purism-why-librem-is-not-the-same-as-libre/
> 
> https://web.archive.org/web/20161010100959/https://blogs.coreboot.org/blog/2015/08/09/the-truth-about-purism-behind-the-coreboot-scenes/
> 
> Other companies produce brand new legitimately libre hardware (TALOS 2,
> 
> Novena, etc) so don't believe purism when they say
> 
> we-are-doing-the-best-we-can.
> 
> Isn't it strange that purism receives so much coverage in the tech press
> 
> but real freedom hardware gets none at all?
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
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Re: [DNG] Requesting translations for dev1fanboy wiki

[Chillfan]

For Strech there looks to be something blocking that for now, and xorg is 
getting removed during dist-upgrade. After removing network-manager that didn't 
seem to be an issue, but systemd will block that when trying to upgrade 
network-manager (and eudev) first.

So, I will need to do some more testing and improving on ascii migrations and 
network configuration.

​Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On February 27, 2018 9:53 AM, J. Fahrner j...@fahrner.name wrote:

> Am 2018-02-27 10:48, schrieb KatolaZ:
> 
> > sorry for pestering you, but by reading the same page again I was
> > 
> > wondering if the transition to wicd is really necessary.
> 
> I also wondered when I translated the pages
> 
> Jochen
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng


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Re: [DNG] Requesting translations for dev1fanboy wiki

[Chillfan]

In my testing from stretch there was no traditional networking  there which 
makes networking a difficult transition. But I wasn't aware of this particular 
issue.

I've made a note just now that manual network configuration is a requirement 
when working remotely, and updated the manual network configuration page. I'll 
also create update the website in a moment and make the merge request.

Please would translators hold off on those pages for now or update them if 
you've already done the work. Sorry for the inconvenience.

Thanks,

chillfan

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐

On February 26, 2018 10:01 PM, KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote:

> On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 09:33:29PM -0500, Chillfan wrote:
> 
> > It turns out the ASCII migration page is still correct, so it's available 
> > to translate.
> > 
> > https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/migrate-to-ascii.md
> > 
> > Thanks,
> > 
> > chillfan
> 
> Dear Chillfan,
> 
> I just discovered a quite serious glitch that I guess might already be
> 
> known: upgrading Debian stretch to ASCII following the tutorial at the
> 
> link above will not work properly, since stretch does not have a
> 
> /etc/network/interfaces file any more (that's now deprecated in
> 
> Debian).
> 
> This means that an upgrade on a remote server requires the admin to
> 
> create that file by hand first, and then reboot into sysvinit,
> 
> otherwise the server will be unreachable after reboot (and might
> 
> require a costly console intervention in some cases).
> 
> We must put this fact into evidence in the tutorial, and add all the
> 
> relevant warnings around. Actually, it would be better to have a
> 
> script that creates a skeleton for /etc/network/interfaces, and then
> 
> asks the admin to double-check it before a reboot.
> 
> My2Cents
> 
> KatolaZ
> 
> \[ ~.,_ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab \]
> 
> \[ "+. katolaz \[at\] freaknet.org \-\-\- katolaz \[at\] yahoo.it \]
> 
> \[ @) http://kalos.mine.nu \-\-\- Devuan GNU + Linux User \]
> 
> \[ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia \-\- GPG: 0B5F062F \]
> 
> \[ (@@@) Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ \]
> 
> Dng mailing list
> 
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
> 
> https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
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Re: [DNG] A few days of ASCII Beta -- Some stats

[Chillfan]

Checking today Devuan hit #7 on distrowatch with > 1000 hits.

Some of those may be due to the news of the internal beta, but I suspect that's 
a smaller part of it given the download stats.

Pretty encouraging so far :)

 ​Cheers,

 chillfan
 ​

  Original Message 
 On February 20, 2018 10:12 AM, KatolaZ kato...@freaknet.org wrote:

>On Sun, Feb 18, 2018 at 05:17:52PM +, KatolaZ wrote:
>[cut]
>>On a related note, Devuan has risen to the 11th position (it was 61st
>> on Feb 13th) in the weekly ranking on Distrowatch:
>>https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan
>> Their rough count would correspond to a normalised average of about
>> 1400 unique visits per day, which could probably put Devuan among the
>> top 7/8 on the weekly ranking by next Wednesday. Not bad at all for a
>> beta release :)
>>So apparently that was not too optimistic, if:
>https://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=devuan
>says Devuan is today #8 in the weekly ranking. I don't know if
> distrowatch stats are considered authoritative at all (I have never
> used them to choose my distro, TBH), but we have seen many bloggers
> and commentators using those same stats to support their claims that
> Devuan was doomed to disappear "soon".
>Well, apparently so far Devuan has managed at least to not be put
> among the "dormant" distros there :P
>HND
>KatolaZ
>[ ~.,_  Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ - Devuan -- Freaknet Medialab  ]
> [ "+.  katolaz [at] freaknet.org --- katolaz [at] yahoo.it ]
> [   @) http://kalos.mine.nu ---  Devuan GNU + Linux User  ]
> [ @@) http://maths.qmul.ac.uk/~vnicosia --  GPG: 0B5F062F  ]
> [ (@@@)  Twitter: @KatolaZ - skype: katolaz -- github: KatolaZ  ]
>Dng mailing list
>Dng@lists.dyne.org
>https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>

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Re: [DNG] Requesting translations for dev1fanboy wiki

[Chillfan]

We're looking quite good for translations, so I'll start work on integrating 
them soon.

When that's done, I would like to add separate index pages for each language. I 
can create those and include links to what we have but the index pages 
themselves will need translation. I will let everyone know when this is done, 
so we can have readable index pages in each language.

 ​Thanks,

 chillfan
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Re: [DNG] Requesting translations for dev1fanboy wiki

[Chillfan]

It turns out the ASCII migration page is still correct, so it's available to 
translate.

https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/migrate-to-ascii.md

 ​Thanks,

 chillfan

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Re: [DNG] Requesting translations for dev1fanboy wiki

[Chillfan]

That would be welcome, thank you. 

When you are done please send me an attachment off list, and I will work on 
adding that.

​Thanks, 

chillfan

> Hi,
>
> I would like to contribute translations for the Greek language.
> While getting myself organized and more familiar with the content, I
> have decided to start with this file
>https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/general-information.md
>
> I will send a draft for review as soon as possible, although I am not
> sure there is another Greek speaking person in this mailing list.
>
> Regards,
>
> Menelaos Maglis mmag...@metacom.gr
>

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Re: [DNG] Requesting translations for dev1fanboy wiki

[Chillfan]

Hi Aitor, 

Thanks for providing versions in pdf and odt, that should be helpful for 
offline reading. 

linuxito is also working on Spanish translations in git on the es branch, so 
you should be able to see what's already done and maybe integrate that.

Many thanks to you both.

So a little update for the list:

There is now plenty of help for Spanish translations.

Someone has offered to translate the pages I mentioned above in German, and 
I've already received some translations for those pages.

I will update the status of translations so far, please keep an eye on this 
page: 
https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/translation-work

Also please remember to mention your name in translations, unless you really 
prefer no attribution. It should be enough to say "Translation by " in the language you're translating to, that should give 
appropriate credit.

Much appreciated, 

chillfan
​

 Original Message 
 On February 18, 2018 10:11 AM, aitor_czr <aitor_...@gnuinos.org> wrote:

>
>Hi chillfan,
>
>On 17/02/18 15:36, Chillfan wrote:
>
>>As an afterthought.. 
>>
>>It's roughly these pages are important to have translations for:
>>
>> https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/general-information.mdhttps://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/migrate-to-jessie.mdhttps://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/network-configuration.mdhttps://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/upgrade-to-ascii.md
>>
>>Note that ascii migration instructions need checking right now due to the 
>>beta release, and may change again later when ascii has a stable release.
>>
>>This would be enough to start off a section for each language with their own 
>>index pages.
>>
>>​Thanks, 
>>
>>chillfan
>>
>I started translating your documentation:
>
>http://gnuinos.org/Chillfan's%20docs/
>
> I'm doing it in both *.odt and *.pdf formats.
>
> HTH,
>
>   Aitor.
>
>
>

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Re: [DNG] Requesting translations for dev1fanboy wiki

[Chillfan]

As an afterthought.. 

It's roughly these pages are important to have translations for:

 
https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/general-information.md
 

https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/migrate-to-jessie.md

https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/network-configuration.md
 

https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/blob/master/upgrade-to-ascii.md

Note that ascii migration instructions need checking right now due to the beta 
release, and may change again later when ascii has a stable release.

This would be enough to start off a section for each language with their own 
index pages.

​Thanks, 

chillfan
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[DNG] Requesting translations for dev1fanboy wiki

[Chillfan]

A few things have been happening at my wiki lately. 

Since the Devuan Jessie release I have retested the correct ways to migrate to 
Devuan, etc and how to iron out those bumps. Devuan has improved and made 
changes since I first started so there have been many corrections and 
improvements. 

In short this means that translations have fallen behind the latest versions of 
those documents, and either need updating or redoing. I’m happy to accept
translations for languages we don’t have yet as well.

If you would like to help out, please reply to this topic.

As far as what needs translating, anything translated from the git repository 
will be appreciated. 

The translations we already have are here: 
https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/home#translations

The git repository is available here: 
https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/tree/master

For those not familiar with git it’s fine to click on the .md file you want to 
translate, view it in RAW format, download and email it back to me after 
translation.

If you choose a page to work with please reply to this post, this should save 
any duplication of work. If you want someone to verify your work or
provide improvements, you can reply to this topic as well.

Many thanks, 

chillfan a.k.a dev1fanboy

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Re: [DNG] Devuan ASCII 2.0.0 Beta released

[Chillfan]

Very nice and well done, the new installer presets leave us spoilt for choice.. 
openrc and a bunch of desktops to choose from.. great stuff.

chillfan

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Re: [DNG] machine locks up switching between console and X session

[Chillfan]

What hardware are you using?

I suspect the problem is with the nouveau driver, I had issues like this with 
my graphics card until reclocking support was finished.

Nouveau has limited support for some of the newer cards (pascal if I remember) 
because nvidia hasn't released the signed firmware yet. The result is low clock 
speeds on the graphics card, and similar issues to what you're having.

Try with the official NVIDIA drivers and see what happens.

https://wiki.debian.org/NvidiaGraphicsDrivers


Thanks,

chillfan
​

>I have some new hardware that locks up a lot with Ascii.  Sometimes it
> happens on its own, other times it seems it can be triggered by going to
> the console (ctrl-alt-f1 for example) and back to the X session
> (ctrl-alt-f7).  Any suggestions about how to diagnose or fix or work
> around this?  I'm not a hardware person at all.
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Chillfan]

This might help you for that: 
https://talk.devuan.org/t/os-documentation-how-to-package-for-devuan/568/14

It's an older post, but if you omit the "Using gitlab" part and clone a debian 
repository directly, it shows some of the basics of how to remove systemd and 
build the package locally. See also debhelper documentation for building 
packages (Debian has it somewhere). Note that quilt usage isn't covered there.

Sent with [ProtonMail](https://protonmail.com) Secure Email.

>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial
> Local Time: January 9, 2018 6:09 PM
> UTC Time: January 9, 2018 6:09 PM
> From: hend...@topoi.pooq.com
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>
> On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 02:14:13PM +, KatolaZ wrote:
>
>> On Tue, Jan 09, 2018 at 02:29:07PM +0100, Jaromil wrote:
>>
>>> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:
>>>
 Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package,
 making changes, and building a Devuan package?
>>>
>>> soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new
>>> devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, as part of the "Devuan
>>> Developer's Manual" we are preparing.
>>> I'll post the link in this thread then.
>>
>> In the meanwhile, you can still use:
>> https://dev1galaxy.org/viewtopic.php?id=549
>
> I'd prefer to work locally until I actually have some confidence that
> I'm doing something sensible. Often it's only once I've started a
> project that I've learned enough to know the entire approach is wrong,
> and there's a much simpler way of accomplishing my goal.
>
> So.
>
> At just which point in these instructions is the working account on
> git.devuan.org needed?
>
> -- hendrik
> ---
>
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Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial

[Chillfan]

That's good news.

I find the Debian manuals are not very easy to understand, for one reason or 
another.

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>  Original Message 
> Subject: Re: [DNG] repackaging tutorial
> Local Time: January 9, 2018 1:28 PM
> UTC Time: January 9, 2018 1:28 PM
> From: jaro...@dyne.org
> To: dng@lists.dyne.org
>
> On Tue, 09 Jan 2018, Hendrik Boom wrote:
>
>> Are there instructions somewhere for taking apart a Debian package,
>> making changes, and building a Devuan package?
>
> soon (matter of days) online there will be a manual for using our new
> devuan helper, the d1h written by Katolaz, as part of the "Devuan
> Developer's Manual" we are preparing.
>
> I'll post the link in this thread then.
>
> ciao!
> ---
>
> Dng mailing list
> Dng@lists.dyne.org
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[DNG] Original translation documents (dev1fanboy wiki)

[Chillfan]

This may be somewhat of a long shot as it was a while ago, but I wondered if 
anyone still has what they mailed me when I asked for translations before.

If so please could you mail me a fresh copy of that, except the French and 
Polish pages as I still have those.

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[DNG] Devuan Weekly News LX

[chillfan]

# Devuan News Issue LX

__Volume 03, Week 1, Devuan Week 60__

Released 12016/1/04

https://git.devuan.org/devuan-editors/devuan-news/wikis/past-issues/volume-03/issue-060

## Editorial

Happy new year from the Devuan news team! 

In case you wondered, yes Devuan is alive and kicking. Devuan Weekly News 
hasn't released a single issue since last June.
We're very sorry about that. Did you miss it? [Tell us!][feedback]

Last year there was a lot of community effort put into making Devuan and the 
user experience better, with much cooperation between members of the mailing 
list. This includes new software for use in Devuan, documentation, and the 
start of packaging for vdev. 

Aside from the growing strength of the community, we have seen significant 
progress towards init freedom in Devuan and the approaching beta release. 
Important init freedom issues have been solved, and security issues will soon 
come into focus with an eye on the beta release for critical security updates. 
We are calling for volunteers on this, so feel free to discuss this on the 
mailing list. 

This year will be the year of init freedom, cooperation and community. We hope 
you will join us in celebrating freedom and justice!

-- @dev1fanboy 

## Comings and Goings

The end of the year 12015 was marked by the unfortunate [death of Debian 
founder Ian Murdock][IM].

### Lately in Devuan

### [A discussion about mount-points] [1]

Steve Litt asked about the preferred behaviour for an auto-mounter program he 
is writing in relation to his Python presentation at GoLUG, and the discussion 
that followed turns out to be instructive for managing mount points. Teodoro 
Santoni's comments provide [useful tips about UUID's][2], Arnt Karlsen talked 
about the [purpose of the /media directory][3] and Adam Borowski expanded on 
this by explaining the [security implications behind the mount point 
structures][4].

### [APT pinning compatibility is broken][5]

Mitt Green mentioned that upstream changes to APT have landed in the Ceres 
branch of Devuan, resulting in a break of compatibility for APT pinning rules. 
Jaromil commented that Devuan [does not rely on pinning][6] to protect against 
the systemd avalanche. Franco Lanza explained that [pinning can be done on the 
"server side"][7] and the pinning included in the install [devuan-baseconf] is 
scheduled for removal for the beta.

### [Init freedom is complete in the base install][8]

Daniel Reurich recently fixed an issue that would result in systemd-sysv being 
the default init at install-time in some cases. Whilst problems concerning init 
freedom are [not yet solved completely][9], this solves the problem of 
systemd-sysv being required by default for some debootstrap installs and images 
built using vmdebootstrap.


### [Security advisory discussions] [10]

Back in April hellekin [announced the Devuan talk forum][11] which uses 
discourse to combine documentation with social features and a platform for 
discussion. Devuan talk users recently received an email notifying them that 
security advisories may be discussed there once they begin to be published. 
Shortly after this notification hellekin [proposed a devuan-security group for 
the gitlab][32] and is calling for volunteers for the security team.
 
### [Upower is now working and init agnostic][12]

Earlier this month Per Eric Rosén asked how it was possible to [use automatic 
suspend for the mate desktop on Jessie][13]. Adam Borowski replied saying that 
a [fork of upower is needed because it depends on systemd][14] for power 
management features. Daniel Reurich (Centurion_Dan) recently fixed this issue 
and announced on the Devuan development channel that upower is now working 
correctly for i386 and amd64, and that it has the necessary pm-utils support. 
This change means that the xfce4 and mate desktops both have power management 
support that doesn't rely on systemd, and mate is close to being free of 
systemd dependencies altogether.

### [Vdev packaging is underway] [15]

Last month aitor_czr mentioned that he has started packaging [vdev][16], the 
Devuan supported device manager. Once the packaging process is complete vdev 
will then be able to enter the experimental branch to be tested in Devuan.

### [Working with recommends and suggests][17]

In a post started by Emiliano Marini about [nmap dependencies][18] fsmithred 
provided some useful information for working with dependencies, suggests and 
recommends. Simon Wise built upon this by providing some [information about APT 
preferences][19] and [referred to the apt-cache manual][20] for further reading.

## New projects for Devuan

### [Devuan migration and minimalism wiki] [21]

Dev1fanboy posted a [quick start guide to Devuan migration][22], showing how to 
migrate to Devuan and configure the install to be more lean. He has since 
started a wiki project which has received a number of contributions from 
others, including a [German translation][23] from a contributor