Re: [DNG] icedove install-recommends

[Simon Walter]

On 2016/04/04 13:27, Steve Litt wrote:
Isn't Icedove a re-branded Thunderbird? Every time I try to use 
Thunderbird, it's an order of magnitude slower than Claws-Mail.


I think XUL shows it's weakness. I am not an expert, but AFAIR, this is 
the reason why the Mozilla family of applications became slow. The 
interface is like molasses on old machines. I don't think it has 
anything to do with "lightning". That being said, I am all for 
decoupling as much as possible.

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Re: [DNG] ...and when trolling went too far

[Simon Walter]

On 2016/04/04 17:39, Trond Arild Ydersbond wrote:

Den Mandag, 4. april 2016 8.09 skrev Mitt Green :
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Lennart_Poettering&oldid=703955376


Representing him as an ass and bloatware generator is definitely not in the 
interest of those challenging his actions as a developer. Why the heck give 
that guy any martyr cards to play?


There is obviously enough demand for systemd. So challenging his actions 
on a technical level would be difficult. What is strange is how ditros 
other than RH have jumped on the bandwagon - especially Debian.


"Never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by 
stupidity..." or laziness. It is one or a mixture of the three: malice, 
laziness, and or stupidity.


I am daily amazed by stupidity. It might be the TV or something in the 
food, but it's getting worse.

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Re: [DNG] ...and when trolling went too far

[Simon Walter]

On 2016/04/07 1:24, Steve Litt wrote:

I'll state this clearly: I'm not the person who put up the fake page.
I've never written anything false to a Wikipedia page.

That being said, I thought it was kind of funny and relatively harmless.

After seeing the extreme revulsion several people had to the fake
page, I'll make sure to continue never to write anything false on a
Wikipedia page (Poettering doesn't work for NSA, and he's not nearly as
handsome as the donkey).



They drank the PC koolaid. Clearly the Internet is much too harsh for 
them. They should stay in their "safe space" where no one can do them 
any harm.


I was quite amused by the defacing of that wikipedia page. It's 
"unprofessional" but I doubt the person who did was trying to be 
professional. Maybe the correct place for it was uncyclopedia. Aha! I 
will have to have a look at that in just a moment.


I am not a millennial or whatever that generation is called. So I don't 
understand how someone can commit suicide over the world making fun of 
them. But apparently it does happen. So maybe I should be a little more 
understanding of their feelings and allow people to blackmail me and 
drag me into their sad little world.


Actually, it sounds like a need for some fresh air, exercise, and a 
better diet!

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Re: [DNG] suspend

[Simon Walter]

On 2016/04/13 3:03, Jaromil wrote:
Now if you like this project to thrive then please lower the 
aggression you also recognize as disruptive in other projects. Let go, 
ignore what is not interesting. Noone here needs an expert to give an 
opinion on every topic, even if mistakes are made. Even a completely 
selfish behavior would be tolerable (then why bother if others aren't 
as expert as you are?) but really not aggressions. 


Yes, I was actually quite surprised at the level of emotion on this 
list. Then I realized that perhaps a lot of you have toiled in the fight 
to keep Debian full of options. I appreciate that struggle that you all 
have been through. I am actually amused most of the time.


We need to make sure that we portray ourselves in a way that others see 
we will not harm the community nor the project. Once someone starts 
expressing themselves in a way that makes it difficult for others to 
take seriously, that's unhealthy for the community. I don't mean that we 
have to be PC about everything, but we need to respect each other. Then 
we can challenge each other in honesty and seriousness. Otherwise it 
becomes personal. On this list, we are about Devuan, not about ourselves.

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Re: [DNG] suspend

[Simon Walter]

On 2016/04/14 0:43, Rowland Penny wrote:

On 13/04/16 16:36, hellekin wrote:

On 04/13/2016 12:44 AM, Simon Walter wrote:

I don't mean that we have to be PC about everything, but


"to be PC"?  Err, what?

Can you expand the acronym if that doesn't mean Personal Computer?

==
hk



Allow me , 'PC' in that context would be 'Politically Correct'.



Thanks Rowland. Yes, and sorry, it's a terrible acronym to use on this list.
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Re: [DNG] removing unwanted bluetooth

[Simon Walter]

On 2016/04/14 19:45, Rainer H. Rauschenberg wrote:

On Thu, 14 Apr 2016, Boruch Baum wrote:


1] The devuan installer shouldn't include bluetooth as a default kernel
module.

IMHO the devuan installer only should deviate from the debian installer
where absolutely necessary (i.e. necessary to avoid systemd). Alle these
various ideas of what to change (compared to debian) only lead to more
work, more problems, lessen the probability of a really existing and
usable devuan distribution.



While I totally agree with what you just said, what about:

"6.1] What I had been expecting to be able to do was simply to blacklist 
the modules and update-initramfs. I don't understand why that no longer 
works."


I too thought that would have been sufficient. That seems like an actual 
problem.


I've only installed Devuan on systems w/o bluetooth. I just checked, and 
on those, the bluetooth module is not started on boot time. It is 
however installed on the file system.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] apt-get vs. aptitude ?

[Simon Walter]

On 04/16/2016 06:22 PM, KatolaZ wrote:

On Fri, Apr 15, 2016 at 04:25:20PM -0500, dev wrote:

On 04/15/2016 03:36 PM, Linux O'Beardly wrote:

For what it's worth, much of the apt vs aptitude is preference and
opinion.  However, aptitude does bit better of a job resolving
dependencies and preventing them from breaking your system.

Yes, That's what I've always read so I have always used aptitude but
in this instance I have packages that will not upgrade via aptitude.
I mention this case specifically as the Debian docs[1] say "aptitude
is the recommended package manager for Debian".


I might be a bit old-fashioned, but I don't understand anything
besides dpkg, dselect, apt-get, and apt-cache. And I have never felt
the need for anything else...



Same here. I tried to use the recommended aptitude a couple times and 
just got lost.


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[DNG] Cdist for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

Hi all,

I saw Herb's question about Open Stack. I thought I should mention that 
I've added support to Cdist for Devuan.


Simon


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Re: [DNG] What do we want for ascii ?

[Simon Walter]

On 04/18/2016 07:13 PM, Noel Torres wrote:

* our own bug reporting system



Hi all,

I am a bit surprised there is no bug tracker and some other architecture.

I would like to help make this a reality. Who is "in charge" of that and 
who decides this kind of thing?


Simon
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Web A11y

[Simon Walter]

On 04/19/2016 01:29 PM, hellekin wrote:

https://beta.devuan.org


Just from a quick glance, it looks really nice - much better than the 
current site.

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Re: [DNG] Which desktops work without systemd

[Simon Walter]

On 04/22/2016 05:57 AM, Mitt Green wrote:

‎Rob van der Putten wrote:


Which desktops work without systemd?
A list would be nice.

Every desktop environment is known
to work without systemd. GNOME3 works
on Funtoo, Slackware, FreeBSD, OpenBSD,
DragonflyBSD. It depends on the
distribution itself.



If by desktops you mean DE, then I thought some have some dependencies 
on systemd by way of the included packages. DE vs. window manager. There 
is a big difference.

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Re: [DNG] What do we want for ascii ?

[Simon Walter]

On 04/22/2016 01:51 PM, Joel Roth wrote:

Didier Kryn wrote:

hellekin a écrit :

Does apulse serve for anything else than running non-free spyware?



 Probably not. The author states that his goal was to run Skype test
call, and after he achieved this goal, the project has just been stale.

The most recent commit is February this year, so that does
not meet my definition of "stale" even if the author uses
that term.
  

 Whatever you think of Skype - and I share your opinion - it is so widely
used that it is necessary for many people.

Skype for Linux, OTOH, *is* stale (and last time I checked was
tricky to install) AIUI intentionally so due to Microsoft's
special love for Linux.

As a workaround, I run Skype on my smartphone, which MS (and
their NSA buddies) can't ignore.



It's so refreshing that you all talk freely about this subject. In my 
social and professional circles it is taboo to even mention the NSA. 
People look at me like I am a "flatearther" when I simply quote the news.


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Re: [DNG] M$ Linux-frendly

[Simon Walter]

On 04/23/2016 01:58 AM, Steve Litt wrote:

On Fri, 22 Apr 2016 18:18:56 +0200
Didier Kryn  wrote:


  Interesting discussion on Microsoft involvement with Linux:
http://www.linuxpromagazine.com/Online/Blogs/Off-the-Beat-Bruce-Byfield-s-Blog/Hating-Microsoft

  I cite a sentence:
   "More recently, a minority have muttered that Systemd is an attempt
by Red Hat to monopolize the Linux operating system."

  I wonder who's that minority...

This might be a good time to remember the 2006 Redhat Smoking Gun
Interview:

http://asay.blogspot.ru/2006/10/interview-with-red-hat-cto-brian.html

===
Red Hat's model works because of the complexity of the technology we
work with. An operating platform has a lot of moving parts, and
customers are willing to pay to be insulated from that complexity.

I don't think you can take one finite element - like Apache - and make
a business out of it [using our model]. You need product complexity.
===

Signed, sealed, delivered, they're busted. We aren't "muttering" that
it's a monopolization technique, that's a fact for anyone willing to do
a little research.



Very nice interview. I especially like the lie at the end:

"We create the best platform on which applications can run and compete 
with each other. That's our business."


What I see about Redhat OS and it's derivatives is, it is not easy to 
use. So beginners need a bunch more proprietary products to enable them 
to use it. That is where the money is made. The GUI. "I can just click! 
doh."


What is the reason people use CentOS? It's in the name and Cpanel is 
evidence.


The reason I initially used Debian was because it was easy to use. I was 
comfortable with a keyboard. In fact, if it took to long to get X 
working after installing on a new workstation, I just wouldn't bother. 
Now there is much better HW support. So those issues are gone. When 
something is easy to use, you don't need support.

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Re: [DNG] M$ Linux-frendly

[Simon Walter]

On 04/23/2016 10:54 AM, Go Linux wrote:

On Fri, 4/22/16, Simon Walter  wrote:



What is the reason people use CentOS? It's in the name and Cpanel is evidence.




I think that people use Centos to avoid the cost of an expensive support 
contract with Redhat.



But still have the cozy feeling that they are using an "enterprise" 
product. CentOS = Community enterprise OS.


Why would you want to use RedHat anyway? I remember RPM hell. That made 
me love Debian. I would rather use Slackware than RedHat - sorry to be 
such a snob. I don't use it anymore much, but Gentoo was gorgeous 
engineering.

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Re: [DNG] M$ Linux-frendly

[Simon Walter]

On 04/23/2016 12:14 PM, Go Linux wrote:

On Fri, 4/22/16, Simon Walter  wrote:

  Subject: Re: [DNG] M$ Linux-frendly
  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
  Date: Friday, April 22, 2016, 9:28 PM
  
On 04/23/2016 10:54 AM, Go Linux wrote:



On Fri, 4/22/16, Simon Walter  wrote:



What is the reason people use CentOS? It's in the name and Cpanel is evidence.



I think that people use Centos to avoid the cost of an expensive support 
contract with Redhat.



But still have the cozy feeling that they are using an "enterprise"
product. CentOS = Community enterprise OS.





Because Centos IS Redhat without the paid support ie a "free' community 
version.  Nearly all the hosting companies I've done business with have used Centos.


And I find that highly annoying because my experience is that CentOS is 
OK and Cpanel just makes it seem like CentOS is a nightmare. Then it 
dawned on me why. It's not a matter of apt-get install php5-mysql 
libapache2-mod-php5 to get a "LAMP" server up and running with sane 
defaults. I really like OpenBSD's motto of secure by default. I am glad 
that we have the experience of Debian as a foundation and we can improve 
on that.





Why would you want to use RedHat anyway?


For me it was just a matter of circumstances.  Back @2005  the geeks at the local LUG 
were using it.  They had an "installfest" and that's what got put on a 
hand-me-down  machine alongside Winblows 98.  Those were blissful days of a sane Gnome2 
desktop and a customizable usplash login screen.  Ubuntu hadn't arrived yet  and Lennart 
was still in 'diapers' with only sugarplum dreams of Lendows . . .  sigh . . .



Ah yes, I saw one once in the Revolution OS documentary. Looks like 
loads of fun. All those different machines! I can be such a nerd. 
S... Don't tell anyone! lol!


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Re: [DNG] Which desktops work without systemd

[Simon Walter]

On 04/23/2016 04:20 PM, aitor_czr wrote:


On 04/22/2016 11:17 AM, KatolaZ  wrote:

In my opinion there's no magic line where things on one side are window
>managers and things on the other side are desktop environments. I think
>we can all agree that Unity, KDE and Gnome are desktop environments,
>and dwm and i3 are window managers, but what's Xfce? What's LXDE?
>What's Openbox?
>
>I think of de/wm as a spectrum, not a 1/0.


I agree with you, there is not a borderline.


It doesn't matter how much you agree on an opinion. That will not make 
it fact. There is a technical difference between the two. Just look up 
the definition of "window manager" and "desktop environment" on any 
techsite/dictionary/encyclopedia. Unless you are trying to sound 
ignorant, it would make sense to use the correct terminology.

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Re: [DNG] software that sucks

[Simon Walter]

 

On April 26, 2016 4:36:04 AM GMT+09:00, Mitt Green  
wrote:
>   aitor_czr wrote:
>
>> Seeing that the kde project switched to
>> cmake i guess it might be not so ugly aswell.
>
>I suppose, KDE shouldn't be a role model :)
>
>   KatolaZ wrote:
>> Seeing that 90% of free software uses autohell
>> I guess it might be not so ugly :)
>
>These 90% don't know, such an ugly thing they use.
>Like Arnt mentioned Windows market share, don't
>forget, that systemd is used by 90% nowadays, too.
>___

Yes, lets not use appeal to mass AKA the bandwagon technique. It is commonly 
heard like this: "But Mom, all the kids are doing it." In and of itself is not 
a reason.
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Re: [DNG] Gtk Development

[Simon Walter]

On April 26, 2016 2:37:42 AM GMT+09:00, KatolaZ  wrote:
>On Mon, Apr 25, 2016 at 05:36:44PM +0100, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
>> kato...@freaknet.org writes:
>> >Seeing that 90% of free software uses autohell I guess it might be
>not
>> >so ugly :)
>> 
>> That's the Microsoft Windows argument: "Seeing that 90% use windows
>> it can't be so bad".
>> 
>
>My comment was exactly in that direction: the fact that KDE has
>adopted Cmake does not make Cmake good per-se ;)
>
>HND
>
>KatolaZ
>
>-- 
>[ Enzo Nicosia aka KatolaZ --- GLUG Catania -- Freaknet Medialab ]
>[ me [at] katolaz.homeunix.net -- http://katolaz.homeunix.net -- ]
>[ GNU/Linux User:#325780/ICQ UIN: #258332181/GPG key ID 0B5F062F ]
>[ Fingerprint: 8E59 D6AA 445E FDB4 A153 3D5A 5F20 B3AE 0B5F 062F ]
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Might I interject the reason why they have adopted it is because one of their 
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Re: [DNG] For all you automounter programmers

[Simon Walter]

On 04/28/2016 09:28 AM, fsmithred wrote:

You could get the label from lsblk, do 'pmount label' and it will be
mounted at /media/label. Every time you plug in a thumb drive labeled
backup, it'll go to the same place. If you unmount the drive, /media/label
will no longer exist, so you could even have the backup script check to
make sure it's there.



I am a little bit fuzzy as to what distro did it, but I recall quite a 
few did. Then along came unmemorable UUIDs. Sometimes I wonder if I am 
the only one who labels partitions still. Glad to see I am not alone.

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Re: [DNG] Beta

[Simon Walter]

On 04/29/2016 04:53 AM, p wrote:


Thanks for beta :)




Yes! Thank you! It's good to see devuan.org now goes to beta.devuan.org. 
Good stuff.


On 04/29/2016 05:24 AM, Ismael L. Donis Garcia wrote:

When you will come out devuan jessie v1.0.0-beta_i386_CD.iso?



Me too. I need this for visualization. I hardly ever use a 64bit system 
when it is visualized.
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Re: [DNG] Supervision scripts (was Re: OpenRC and Devuan)

[Simon Walter]

On 05/05/2016 03:18 AM, Stephanie Daugherty wrote:
Process supervision is something I'm very opinionated about. In a 
number of high availability production environments, its a necessary 
evil.


However, it should *never* be an out of the box default for any 
network-exposed service, Service failures should be extraordinary 
events, and we should strive to keep treating them as such, so that we 
continue to pursue stability. Restarting a service automatically 
doesn't improve stability of that software, it works around an 
instability rather than addressing the root cause - it's a band-aid 
over a festering wound.


The failure of a service is analogous in my eyes to the tripping of a 
circuit breaker - it happened for a reason, and that underlying reason 
is probably serious. Circuit breakers in houses generally don't reset 
themselves, and either should network-facing services.


The biggest concern in any service failure is that a failure was 
caused by an exploit attempt - attacks which exploit bad 
memory-management tend to crash whatever they are exploiting, even on 
a failed attempt. In an environment where such an event has been 
reduced to routine, and automatic restarts are the norm, that attacker 
gets as many attempts as they need, reducing one of the first signs of 
an intrusion to barely a blip on the radar if the systems are even 
being monitored at all.



The second reason is that it will reduce the number of high-quality 
bug reports developers receive - if failure is part of the routine, it 
tends not to get investigate very thoroughly, if at all.


A third reason is convention and expectation. We've lived without 
process supervision in the *nix world for almost 4 decades now, those 
decades of experienced admins generally expect to be able to kill off 
a process and have it stay down.


Please consider these factors in any implementation of process 
supervision - while it's certainly it's a needed improvement for many 
organizations,, it's not something that should just be on by default.





I couldn't agree more. Some systems I've administered had monitoring 
daemons, but they would only warn the admin via email and not act 
automatically.


When you are working with many servers, you want to have your own 
monitoring like icinga for example. I think warning notifications by 
default are a good thing.



On 05/05/2016 05:45 AM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

It greatly reduces the number of "low-quality" (or rather, "no quality")
bug reports I receive as I don't (usually) get frantic phone calls at
3am UK time because a server in Texas terminated itself for some
reason. Instead, I can collect the core file as soon as I get around to
that and fix the bug.

NB: I deal with appliances (as developer) and not with servers (as
sysadmin).


So, for example, would something like daemontools be what you use with 
your field deployed software?


I tend to think that something like automatic restarts are the exception 
rather than the rule, and so no default support needs to be provided.


I would not like to, for example, install apache and mod php and have it 
restart after it has crashed due to a crappy PHP application. I am of 
the opinion that is a big security risk. I am sure much thought has been 
spent on the subject of sane defaults for a server.

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Re: [DNG] Supervision scripts

[Simon Walter]

On 05/05/2016 11:11 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

Simon Walter  writes:

[...]


On 05/05/2016 05:45 AM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

It greatly reduces the number of "low-quality" (or rather, "no quality")
bug reports I receive as I don't (usually) get frantic phone calls at
3am UK time because a server in Texas terminated itself for some
reason. Instead, I can collect the core file as soon as I get around to
that and fix the bug.

NB: I deal with appliances (as developer) and not with servers (as
sysadmin).

So, for example, would something like daemontools be what you use with
your field deployed software?

I certainly wouldn't use "something like daemontools" for anything but
that's a completely different conversation (my present idea for 'server
management' is to implement whatever I need in form of relatively simple
'do one thing and do it well' C programs which can be combined freely to
create complex program invocation commands).

OTOH, I am convinced that 'automatic restarts' is a sensible policy,
especially for background infrastructure servers, as these are usually
invisible to users unless they manifest themselves in form of "the
internet doesn't work".


I understand your position. What I don't understand is what you are 
suggesting. What are you suggesting should change in Devuan? Are you 
suggesting that daemon monitoring be included and activated by default?


It sounds like to me that you as a developer of custom software have a 
solution that works well for you. Does that have anything to do with 
monitoring services and restarting them on Devuan? Are you just anxious 
to show the other side of the coin that automatic restarts are useful in 
some cases? Because, AFAICT, that is NOT what is being discussed.


I am not the author of apache. So I am not going to make assumptions 
about when it can or cannot be automatically restarted safely.


I know cpanel and WHM have something to handle restarting crashed 
services. I think that someone, who needs that hand holding, not use a 
general purpose OS - which Devuan is striving to be. Am I mistaken?

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Re: [DNG] Supervision scripts

[Simon Walter]

On 05/06/2016 08:05 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

Simon Walter  writes:

On 05/05/2016 11:11 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

Simon Walter  writes:

[...]


On 05/05/2016 05:45 AM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

It greatly reduces the number of "low-quality" (or rather, "no quality")
bug reports I receive as I don't (usually) get frantic phone calls at
3am UK time because a server in Texas terminated itself for some
reason. Instead, I can collect the core file as soon as I get around to
that and fix the bug.

NB: I deal with appliances (as developer) and not with servers (as
sysadmin).

So, for example, would something like daemontools be what you use with
your field deployed software?

I certainly wouldn't use "something like daemontools" for anything but
that's a completely different conversation (my present idea for 'server
management' is to implement whatever I need in form of relatively simple
'do one thing and do it well' C programs which can be combined freely to
create complex program invocation commands).

OTOH, I am convinced that 'automatic restarts' is a sensible policy,
especially for background infrastructure servers, as these are usually
invisible to users unless they manifest themselves in form of "the
internet doesn't work".

I understand your position.

Maybe, maybe not. Rather not, actually. But that's not really important.

[...]


I am not the author of apache. So I am not going to make assumptions
about when it can or cannot be automatically restarted safely.

Unless you modify the code, you are (as I already explained) not in the
position to decide this

...


So I understand you are not really discussing this for the benefit of 
Devuan but rather to discuss. Thanks for the chat. Take it easy!

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Re: [DNG] hashtag retarded

[Simon Walter]

On May 9, 2016 7:40:50 PM GMT+09:00, Jaromil  wrote:
>
>TL;DR some people find it cozy to stay here, therefore dng will keep
>existing, but if you don't like it, there are more options with less
>"noise".
>
>
>On Mon, 09 May 2016, Teodoro Santoni wrote:
>
>> In this mailing list there has been a peak in things
>> I don't care about, during recent weeks.
>
>this list is the first firecamp out of town after the debianfork
>diaspora. I don't think we can nor should change it in any way.
>But your concern is shared by many, especially newcomers.
>
>That's why we have created a forum https://talk.devuan.org which
>allows FAQ style publishing, wiki pages with comments and
>categorization and reputation metrics.
>
>plus for the e-mail aficionados two new mailinglists:
>
>one for devuan related discussion (OT will be moderated there)
>https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devuan-discuss
>
>and one for those who want just to receive the important announcements
>https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devuan-announce
>
>I encourage you and everyone else willing to review your subscriptions
>in order to make your own experience in Devuan more pleasant. If you
>like you can unsubscribe from here at this link
>https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/dng
>
>and the subscribe one of the above, with my recommended preference for
>https://talk.devuan.org since materials posted there will contribute
>to the community-made documentation in Devuan.
>
>

Fantastic. Thank you! There is so much in the right direction day after day. 
Much appreciation.

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Re: [DNG] You might have seen this already...

[Simon Walter]

On 05/28/2016 09:55 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
This means the leading sentence would be more appropriately worded as 
"In my opinion, it's actually quite strange that UNIX(*) enables users 
of the system to run background jobs".


Well put!


On 05/29/2016 02:48 AM, Steve Litt wrote:

I see poettering's point, but it's just not a problem for me. I don't
use a desktop environment that, without my permission or knowledge,
starts tens of processes in my behalf. For the most part, when a
process is started in my behalf, I personally started it from a command
prompt, Dmenu or UMENU. So I can choose whether or not to close it
before logging out.


I think this is Lennart's biggest failing. He is trying to make a 
traditionally server OS into an entertainment system. Face it, most 
people these days use their devices for entertainment - not work. So 
it's not even fair to say that systemd is useful for workstations.



Every bit of this was predictable from the moment we learned about
systemd's architecture. Gratuitous component intercommunication leads to
ever worsening problems. A system with gratuitous component
intercommunication is so complex that it's difficult to predict exactly
what those problems will be, but it's a certainty those problems will
occur.



It's also scope creep, which is diametrically opposed to "one tool for 
one job". Some of the comments on that list were interesting: "...who in 
turn will finally get annoyed at systemd." It's like they understand the 
problems associated with systemd but are committed to it. So now they 
have to protect their decision - making their relationship with systemd 
more emotional than logical.


I am not afraid of change, yet, experience has shown that consensus is 
wonderful. Lennart doesn't seem to understand that. I am so glad that 
there are people with, shall we call them, traditional (unix) values 
still on this planet.

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Re: [DNG] You might have seen this already...

[Simon Walter]

On 05/29/2016 03:20 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:

After all, it is money that counts.



I am of the opinion that it is veracity that counts. I am also of the 
opinion that there are many who share the previous opinion with me. 
Therefore not all software will cater to the ignorant.

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Re: [DNG] You might have seen this already...

[Simon Walter]

On 05/29/2016 04:13 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Hi,

The last statement is not an expression of my opinion but sadly what
the majority think. Yes, I too hold the belief that 'veracity' is of
prime importance.



Edward, I am glad you clarified that and I am glad to be in such good 
company!

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Re: [DNG] What's the correct place for backgrounds, wallpapers etc.

[Simon Walter]

On 06/02/2016 12:10 AM, Go Linux wrote:

On Wed, 6/1/16, hellekin  wrote:

  Subject: Re: [DNG] What's the correct place for backgrounds, wallpapers etc.
  To: dng@lists.dyne.org
  Date: Wednesday, June 1, 2016, 1:23 AM
  

You may also install desktop themes in your user's $HOME: ~/.themes/foo


  ==
  hk



True but then root apps like synaptic and gparted won't be themed properly.  To 
work across the board themes should go into /usr/share/themes.  ;)

golinux




Aha! I never knew there was a way "fix" that.
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[DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Simon Walter]

Hi All,

I am working on some cdist scripts for setting up some network interfaces.

So far I am modifying the /etc/network/interfaces and then bring down
and up the interfaces. For a while now /etc/init.d/networking has a
warning that it is deprecated. I understand why. So I issue:
# ip address flush dev xxx && ip link set xxx down

Which seems to work fine. However, when I try to bring the device back
up with the new config with "ifup xxx"
It fails. If I first issue a "ifdown xxx" then it works.

So I have couple questions for those who know about the situation in De*an:

1. Is there a plan to move away from ipconfig?
2. Is there a plan to write a /etc/init.d/networking script that works
properly?
3. Is ifup unrelated to ifconfig and will continue to live and be used
in the De*an ecosystem?
3. For my project: How does one bring up and down interfaces with ip in
coordination with /etc/network/interfaces? Or shall I use ifup?

Kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Devuan Top100 on DistroWatch

[Simon Walter]

On 06/03/2016 01:55 AM, KatolaZ wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 02, 2016 at 06:27:43PM +0200, Jaromil wrote:
>> On Thu, 02 Jun 2016, Joel Roth wrote:
>>
>>> Actually, the news doesn't even have to be good. There's nothing
>>> like an engineered controversy full of flames, to gain interest of
>>> the press.
>>
>> sad, but true in most cases.
>>
>> anyway the main cornerstone for Devuan beta2 will *not* be a media
>> stunt :^) we have to make some fixes, consolidate the infrastructure
>> and last but not least include properly the fine look of the default
>> desktop that golinux and hellekin have made.
>>
> 
> Flames fade away, and leave little good behind, if anything. It would
> be far better for Devuan to focus on facts, rather than on opinions.
> 

Yes, I totally agree. "There is nothing hidden that will not be
revealed." Which is why open source trumps closed source. Which is why
many people see through Redhat and their greedy moves.

Here is another little "fact" I came across:
https://wiki.debian.org/LXC#Incompatibility_with_systemd

Simon
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Re: [DNG] SoylentNews discussion

[Simon Walter]

On 06/03/2016 06:45 AM, Jaromil wrote:
> however this is all abstract speculation now. I'm not even sure we'll
> make such a big change in testing. most people and organizations
> switching to Devuan today (me included) are in need of a system that
> does not change their workflow arbitrarily.

On 06/03/2016 06:57 AM, Steve Litt wrote:
> But like you say, this decision is a long, looong way off.

Very sensible. Thank you! People "at the coalface" appreciate this.
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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Simon Walter]

On 06/03/2016 04:43 PM, Adam Borowski wrote:
> On Fri, Jun 03, 2016 at 08:56:50AM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:
>> I am working on some cdist scripts for setting up some network interfaces.
>>
>> So far I am modifying the /etc/network/interfaces and then bring down
>> and up the interfaces. For a while now /etc/init.d/networking has a
>> warning that it is deprecated.
> 
> /etc/init.d/networking is not deprecated, only calling it with the argument
> "restart" (="force-reload") is.  There's no real way to do that reliably in
> any non-static setup.

OK. I see. So it's only with restart. Got it. By non-static is that only
dhcp or are there other non-static setups? I would imagine a dhcp setup
would restart fine, but maybe I am such a simple user.

> ifupdown keeps its state in /run/network/ifstate, if you bring devices up or
> down using low-level tools then ifupdown may get confused.  Use --force to
> override the saved state.

Nice.

>> 2. Is there a plan to write a /etc/init.d/networking script that works
>> properly?
> 
> What do you mean by "properly"?  What's your problem with it?

Well, considering I misinterpreted the part where only "restart" was
deprecated, I suppose if restarting is not possible, then fine.

>> 4. For my project: How does one bring up and down interfaces with ip in
>> coordination with /etc/network/interfaces? Or shall I use ifup?
> 
> Don't try to mix the two -- or rather, you may use ip safely for
> configuration (like, changing addresses, routes, etc) but not bringing an
> interface up or down.  If ifupdown doesn't fit your needs you can simply
> omit that interface in /etc/network/interfaces or let it bring it up during
> boot and never touch it again.  Unlike, say, network-manager, ifupdown will
> not mess with the interface unless either you or udev explicitely tell it
> so.

Thanks man. I don't know why there would be network-manager install on a
server, but we live in such a entertainment world. It's good there are
others striving for a professional OS.

Kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Simon Walter]

On 06/03/2016 11:23 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:
This stop-modify-restart is a bit coarse-grained and it's also 
possible to do this manually without 'interface downtime' but there's 
no general interface for that: The sequence of commands will depend on 
both the running configuration and the desired configuration and has 
to be worked out beforehand and then executed. Considering that the 
modified interfaces file can be created before causing any side 
effects and then be swapped atomically via mv in between the down and 
the up, 'play nice with the system' is IMHO a better idea. Changing 
the stored configuration while the interface is up bound to cause 
trouble unless care is taken to ensure that this can be interrupted at 
any point (imagine a sudden power outage) with the system still 
remaining in or capable of returning to an operational state.


Yes, I 100% agree. Thank you for the detailed info.

I am trying to do it like that (using the interfaces file). However, 
cdist has some limitations in it's default usage pattern regarding 
"down-mod-up". Of course since it's connecting over the network, I need 
to be careful what NICs go down and how they are reconfigured.


I think I've hit on something. Since I am adding containers (LXC) and 
virtual network to the box, I think I will add an tap and bridge 
interface to an /etc/network/interface.d/ file. If I use something like:


auto br0
iface br0 inet static
pre-up ip tuntap add dev tap0 mode tap
pre-up ip link set tap0 up
post-down ip link set tap0 down
post-down ip tuntap del dev tap0 mode tap
bridge_ports tap0
address 10.1.1.1
netmask 255.255.255.0
broadcast 10.1.1.255

And make sure there is the source /etc/network/interface.d/* line in the 
interfaces file. Then route with iptables between the a physical NIC 
(eth0 for example) and the virtual NIC (tap0) and have all the 
containers connected to br0.


Are there any glaring problems with this setup?

Thanks everyone again for all the advice and explanations.

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Init compatibility

[Simon Walter]

On 06/04/2016 04:27 PM, Steve Litt wrote:
I always feel a lot better when I can singlehandedly fix what goes 
wrong with my possessions.


Here here! Give this man a beer! I usually use both hands, but I do know 
what you mean.

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Re: [DNG] man init

[Simon Walter]

On 06/04/2016 09:39 PM, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 04/06/2016 14:00, Nate Bargmann a écrit :

* On 2016 04 Jun 04:52 -0500, Jaromil wrote:

On Fri, 03 Jun 2016, Joel Roth wrote:


My system is devuan/jessie, upgraded from debian.

It's interesting that 'man init' brings up the
systemd man page.

strange! I don't have that on my laptop (installed from devuan
directly) but will check on other systems. curious why this occurs.
well spotted

On this desktop upgraded from Debian Jessie to Devuan Jessie about a
month ago, 'man init' gives me the page for sysvinit.  Only libsystemd0
is installed.  Any other search for systemd shows uninstalled packages.

- Nate


Same as Nate on a fresh install of Beta two weeks ago.


No problems here:
#uname -a
Linux i7 3.16.0-4-amd64 #1 SMP Debian 3.16.7-ckt25-2 (2016-04-08) x86_64 
GNU/Linux

#cat /etc/devuan_version
jessie




Didier

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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Simon Walter]

On 06/05/2016 12:16 AM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

Simon Walter  writes:

[...]


I am adding containers (LXC) and
virtual network to the box, I think I will add an tap and bridge
interface to an /etc/network/interface.d/ file. If I use something
like:

auto br0
iface br0 inet static
 pre-up ip tuntap add dev tap0 mode tap
 pre-up ip link set tap0 up
 post-down ip link set tap0 down
 post-down ip tuntap del dev tap0 mode tap
 bridge_ports tap0
 address 10.1.1.1
 netmask 255.255.255.0
 broadcast 10.1.1.255

And make sure there is the source /etc/network/interface.d/* line in
the interfaces file. Then route with iptables between the a physical
NIC (eth0 for example) and the virtual NIC (tap0) and have all the
containers connected to br0.

Are there any glaring problems with this setup?

This will create a bridge with one virtual network interface bridged to
a character device an application could use to talk 'ethernet' to the
network stack. That's certainly not inherently related to/ useful for
anything-lxc.



I will route the packets to the physical device using iptables, thereby 
creating a firewalled private network. I have only tried it out and not 
done much research and testing on whether this is actually secure or not.

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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Simon Walter]

On 06/06/2016 08:48 PM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

Simon Walter  writes:

On 06/05/2016 12:16 AM, Rainer Weikusat wrote:

Simon Walter  writes:

[...]


I am adding containers (LXC) and
virtual network to the box, I think I will add an tap and bridge
interface to an /etc/network/interface.d/ file. If I use something
like:

auto br0
iface br0 inet static
  pre-up ip tuntap add dev tap0 mode tap
  pre-up ip link set tap0 up
  post-down ip link set tap0 down
  post-down ip tuntap del dev tap0 mode tap
  bridge_ports tap0
  address 10.1.1.1
  netmask 255.255.255.0
  broadcast 10.1.1.255

And make sure there is the source /etc/network/interface.d/* line in
the interfaces file. Then route with iptables between the a physical
NIC (eth0 for example) and the virtual NIC (tap0) and have all the
containers connected to br0.

Are there any glaring problems with this setup?

This will create a bridge with one virtual network interface bridged to
a character device an application could use to talk 'ethernet' to the
network stack. That's certainly not inherently related to/ useful for
anything-lxc.


I will route the packets to the physical device using iptables,
thereby creating a firewalled private network. I have only tried it
out and not done much research and testing on whether this is actually
secure or not.

You don't need the tap port for that, the bridge will happily work
without any ports statically assigned to it.


And will I be able to set up iptables with just the bridge? I was 
thinking of using shorewall. I've never used it before, but it seems 
like it's configuration is easy to maintain. Therein lies my concern. 
There are zones with interfaces for each zone. For some reason I thought 
a bridge needs to at least have one interface that it is bridging for it 
to be up. Can I bring a bridge up and do iptables stuff with it having 
no interfaces that it bridges?




The machines I'm dealing with use a bridge as 'main interface' a
principally arbitrary number of (lxc) containers connect to via veth
with one physical interface also assigned to the bridge to provide
actual connectivity. It's also possible to do packet filtering between
bridge ports if that's considered to be desirable/ useful.


I want to filter packets between physical NIC (WAN, eth0) and a virtual 
internal network (LAN, br0/tap0???). I am basically creating an isolated 
virtual network with virtual machines all inside one machine. Each 
container will have just enough software to carry out it's place in the 
network. Thereby isolating everything as much as possible, allowing for 
independent updates, modifications, hotswaps, etc.



  'Introduction
site'

http://ebtables.netfilter.org/

One of the advantages of ip(route) over the older, BSD-style tools is
that they can be used to assign an arbitrary number of protocol
addresses to a single interface without employing 'interface aliases'.


Good to know. Thank you!

Simon
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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Simon Walter]

Adam, Rainer, Simon,

Thanks guys. I thought I knew what I was doing, but now I think I might 
be able to execute this better with all of your advice.


Cheers,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 05:45 AM, Jim Murphy wrote:

On Mon, Jun 6, 2016 at 2:23 PM, Klaus Hartnegg  wrote:

All programmers please read this, and treat it as a list of things not to do.

https://lists.dns-oarc.net/pipermail/dns-operations/2016-June/014964.html

Systemd manages to shoot itself in the foot, and in the elbow, and trigger a 
timebomb, all with one single bullet.

Did anyone follow the "systemd blob" link(within the above
mentioned link) and read any other points including -logind?

This apparently prompted a bug[1] on Debian that turned into a
somewhat long discussion within the bug messages.  It appears
that Debian wanted to turn on, as default, the clean-up feature on
logout. If I read it correctly it would kill background processes
when you log out.  This would result in killing, among other
things, a detached tmux process or a long running background
processes that in the past would have remained running.

So maybe the average user won't be concerned. :(

[1] https://bugs.debian.org/cgi-bin/bugreport.cgi?bug=825394




Yes, that "clean-up" feature was mentioned and discussed and pretty 
vomited on - for obvious reasons. Which is why, and I repeat myself, I 
am so thankful for everyone here. Not everyone drank the coolaid!

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Re: [DNG] devuan installer and overheating

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 02:45 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

Finally i succeeded in installing a devuan ascii into qemu (running on
an archlinux openrc system).

And here too, i noticed that the debian installer is somehow "extreme"
in using ressources. Note this is *NOT* an amd graphics based machine
but a sony_vaio with nvidia graphics. (On another laptop, a samsung
with amd processor and graphics, i could not get installed devuan until
i did not put the machine on top of an icepack!!!).

But nevertheless, installing devuan also this vaio heats up to
something like 85° - but it has a stronger fan than, so the
process went through.

I'm wondering why this problems do not happen with installers of other
distros. If this is repeatable for others too, may be, if some one is
able and prepared to do that, it might be good to check, if there is a
reason why (?)



I have not noticed this. What are the models of your notebook computers?

You could do everyone a favour and debug it a little. Do you know which 
process was spinning the CPU?

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Re: [DNG] How to acknowledge ported version of Open Source program?

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 02:51 PM, Hughe Chung wrote:
I've been porting an Open Source program to Python 3.4 for my personal 
use. The original source code written by C language in 2005 has MIT 
license.


...

I'm planning to release it under GPLv3 soon. I will definitely 
acknowledge original author on the license but don't want to include 
the ancient source code in my program.




I think it depends on how much you copied and how polite you are. You 
can say "inspired by", but if your code is structured the same and it 
really is a port, I think you might want to word it differently. Though 
I don't think you need to include such a notice in your source code. If 
you are naming it the same and calling it a Python version, then maybe 
coordinate with the original author. That's just my opinion. I am not a 
lawyer.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 03:47 PM, Jaromil wrote:
sorry for abstracting the topic, but I definitely see a pattern in 
many contexts. I could bring forward more arguments on why this 
happens in the technology industry at a time in which material 
production techniques reached an innovation peak after 2 decades of 
incredible acceleration.


I am interested in your (and everyone's) musings on the subject. In my 
circle, it is heresy. I suppose I am seeped in the corporate culture and 
find open discussions invigorating.


I do think (was it Mr. Litt that said of) Redhat has a part to play. How 
much of that the you es ay spy agencies were involved is speculation. 
I'd love it if some info was leaked. It would cause everyone to be much 
more critical, think twice, and review code more.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] resolved

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 06:59 PM, Simon Hobson wrote:

Steve Litt  wrote:


I'm all for corporations making money. I get paid, why shouldn't they?

Indeed. I find it "interesting" to hear some people suggesting they shouldn't 
have to pay for anything - and think that if anyone suggested they shouldn't get paid for 
whatever they do/produce then they might have a different view !
Also bear in mind that a lot of what is "free" is only free and there because "someone 
else" actually paid for it - just look at how many of the major projects are led/staffed by people 
employed by various technology companies to produce the "free" stuff.


Hold on. I must interject.

Not all programmers are equal. Some are so skilled that to write up a 
piece of software and maintain it just for themselves, is not as 
difficult as it is for someone like me. If a hobbyist or professional 
cannot get the parts s/he needs because the information on the package 
is incorrect in some way, then some resort to DIY. It is this group of 
DIY hobbyists and professionals and their vision gave us open source 
software.


Others in other replies have mentioned some of the pioneers. I respect 
and admire them and their fortitude.


It doesn't much to do with producing something directly for sale. The 
motivation to produce superior parts might be to enable one to do ones 
job better, but those parts were not originally for sale. Redhat is 
taking those and selling support for them. Great. Nice. Good. But then 
when they start the systemd BS, all the comments about them having 
greedy ulterior motives start to make sense. The freeloaders will never 
care. After all, they are comfortable with the theft of software.




Eg, while we may deride RH (especially over SystemD), it's true that their paying 
customers do indirectly pay for some of the stuff we use for "free". I 
personally know someone employed by them to work on virtualisation - IIRC he works on 
improvements to things like Qemu.


Yes. My brother works for RH and feeds his children with that money. I 
still don't care for RH. I never have and never will. RPM hell may have 
been intentional. Just like MS doesn't fix horrible bugs because they 
make good money off of support.


Knowing someone in an organization doesn't make it a good organization.



Of course, we know that a lot of people work on this in their own time - but we 
assume that they are still either employed, or getting a pension, or getting 
some other form of support in order to pay the bills, keep a roof over their 
head, and put food on the table.


My first paragraph applies. Only freeloaders are asking for a handout 
and those people do not matter to us anyway. Money is no justification 
for nefarious action.


My biggest gripe with systemd: How many man hours have been wasted and 
will be wasted. There is an lack of wisdom in that project.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] devuan installer and overheating

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 07:38 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

Am Tue, 07 Jun 2016 08:33:08 +
schrieb Simon Walter :


I have not noticed this. What are the models of your notebook
computers?

You could do everyone a favour and debug it a little. Do you know
which process was spinning the CPU?

a Samsung NP535U3C (amd processor and graphics)

a Sony Vaio VPCF23S1E (Intel Core i7-2670QM (-HT-MCP-) NVIDIA GF108M)

It always happened when it came to install the software tasks (desktop,
printserver, etc) - apt i'd presume. The fans are going crazy. At first
i thought it might be a problem related to the amd/ati graphics which
unfortunately do not work fine with the free driver. But now, i
realized this also on the Sony Vaio which has nothing to do with amd.
But indeed, on the Vaio it was a qemu installation - but otoh, just to
check, i compiled libre office from source and the machine never got
hotter than 60°. Installing Jessie in qemu the top heat was 87°!

(How can i debug the installation?)


Well, those are certainly powerful enough machines.

Do you have a very fast Internet connection? I would assume the fans go 
crazy, but unless your room is very hot and the machines full of dust, 
they should not crash from overheating.


Let me see...

OK first of all, at least on the version I have 
(devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4-netboot.iso) there is no graphical installer. 
So it's most likely nothing to do with your graphics chip.


Second of all, there is no top on the installer and the busybox version 
of ps that is on the installer is completely striped down.


So you may have to resort to parsing /proc to find the misbehaving 
process. That being said, I don't know if I should say that you should 
write a shell script to parse that info or if you should pick through it 
by hand. It might be simpler to cp top from a compatible installation 
and use that to find the misbehaving process.


Once you find that, then you will know basically what is going on.

Simon
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Re: [DNG] devuan installer and overheating

[Simon Walter]

On 06/08/2016 12:15 PM, Simon Walter wrote:

On 06/07/2016 07:38 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

Am Tue, 07 Jun 2016 08:33:08 +
schrieb Simon Walter :


I have not noticed this. What are the models of your notebook
computers?

You could do everyone a favour and debug it a little. Do you know
which process was spinning the CPU?

a Samsung NP535U3C (amd processor and graphics)

a Sony Vaio VPCF23S1E (Intel Core i7-2670QM (-HT-MCP-) NVIDIA GF108M)

It always happened when it came to install the software tasks (desktop,
printserver, etc) - apt i'd presume. The fans are going crazy. At first
i thought it might be a problem related to the amd/ati graphics which
unfortunately do not work fine with the free driver. But now, i
realized this also on the Sony Vaio which has nothing to do with amd.
But indeed, on the Vaio it was a qemu installation - but otoh, just to
check, i compiled libre office from source and the machine never got
hotter than 60°. Installing Jessie in qemu the top heat was 87°!

(How can i debug the installation?)


Well, those are certainly powerful enough machines.

Do you have a very fast Internet connection? I would assume the fans 
go crazy, but unless your room is very hot and the machines full of 
dust, they should not crash from overheating.


Let me see...

OK first of all, at least on the version I have 
(devuan-jessie-i386-alpha4-netboot.iso) there is no graphical 
installer. So it's most likely nothing to do with your graphics chip.


OK, well, I just tried the new BETA. It does have a graphical installer. 
You might want to try the text version and see if there is any problem 
with that.


I don't know why there is a graphical installer. My opinion is that If 
it's not taking up too much developers time, then great, but it's really 
not necessary. Hopefully no one is spending much time on it.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] How to acknowledge ported version of Open Source program?

[Simon Walter]

On 06/07/2016 09:35 PM, Arnt Karlsen wrote:

On Tue, 7 Jun 2016 15:31:31 +0900, Simon wrote in message
<57566a43.4050...@gikaku.com>:


On 06/07/2016 02:51 PM, Hughe Chung wrote:

I've been porting an Open Source program to Python 3.4 for my
personal use. The original source code written by C language in
2005 has MIT license.

...

I'm planning to release it under GPLv3 soon. I will definitely
acknowledge original author on the license but don't want to
include the ancient source code in my program.


I think it depends on how much you copied and how polite you are. You
can say "inspired by", but if your code is structured the same and it
really is a port, I think you might want to word it differently.
Though I don't think you need to include such a notice in your source
code. If you are naming it the same and calling it a Python version,
then maybe coordinate with the original author. That's just my
opinion. I am not a lawyer.

..11 years with Groklaw.net has thaught me to be a little harsher;
you cannot "port" a program written under one license (MIT), under
another license, unless that first license has language that allows
such "relicensing" under other licensing terms.


The MIT license must be retained. Though it does say you can sub-license.

Since Chung's new version is written in Python, wouldn't it be 
considered a different piece of software? I don't think a re-write in 
another language of something licensed under the MIT license can even be 
considered a derivative, much less a copy.


I think a port is normally considered what you do when you recompile 
code for another architecture. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Porting) 
says so. I am aware that some say, "port such and such to PHP," but I 
think that is technically incorrect.


"The term is not generally applied to the process of adapting software 
to run with less memory on the same CPU and operating system, nor is it 
applied to the rewriting of source code in a different language 
 (i.e. language 
conversion or translation)."


Of course Wikipedia is not the authority on all knowledge. ;)

Simon

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Re: [DNG] Killing background processes on logout [was Re: resolved]

[Simon Walter]

On 06/08/2016 07:49 PM, KatolaZ wrote:

[sorry for the long reply]


Very well put.



Killing all the processes at logout should be easily doable using
cgroups (which existed much before Poettering got his bachelor
degree), and is indeed easily doable with screen, nohup, and hundred
of similar amenities. Those *mechanisms* exist already, and new ones
can and should be introduced as needed, to complement the existing
ones, so that they can be combined in thousands of different new ways,
to serve the needs of different and emerging use cases. But it is not
possible to enforce the policy "all the processes that want to survive
have to use a precise mechanism", which in the meanwhile breaks
backward compatibility with other mechanisms and other policies. This
is not innovation. This is just breaking things for the sake of it.



IMHO, systemd should probably be called gnomed and then employ all the 
well known, well documented APIs of the system(s if it is to be useful 
on other OS that Gnome might run on) to do it's thing.


By not employing those existing mechanisms, the authors of systemd are 
guilty of moving Linux systems farther away from POSIX and Unix then 
they already are. Linux might not be a true Unix for a few reasons, but 
those reasons have been deliberated over and there is no need to be in a 
hurry to break things. If it were not for projects like Devuan, Linux 
may really become something a Unix user cannot use comfortably and/or 
fluently. I should not have to learn to drive again just because the 
engine of a car has become more efficient. To the business man, it might 
make sense to put forth this excuse, because he gets to rip you off, but 
to the rest of us it is what is called sh177y engineering.

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Re: [DNG] Killing background processes on logout [was Re: resolved]

[Simon Walter]

On 06/09/2016 07:07 AM, Dan Purgert wrote:

Didier Kryn wrote:

[snip]

 I cite:
"Systemd and cgroup developers are working together to turn systemd into a
global cgroup manager that creates higher-level control knobs and prevents
direct access to the kernel. Many Systemd changes are already released
while cgroup changes are set to be merged into the upstream kernel.
Much work still remains, however."

Yet another thing that systemd is getting its tentacles into ... wonder
when the majority of users will say "enough is enough" with it?




They will not. The majority of users are freeloaders. So we may end up 
using a BSD. But not today. GNU/Linux is still available.

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Re: [DNG] Killing background processes on logout [was Re: resolved]

[Simon Walter]

linuxvoice.com/interview-lennart-poettering

It's an old article, but as I read, I realized how much I disagree with 
Lennart. TBH, he sounds like an Apple fan.


Now we get controversial, because those who like to feel smart, yet 
don't know much, feel empowered by AI. Those who don't feel smart, but 
want to be smart, don't like AI, because it means they can't learn. 
Admins and technicians alike need to be able to know what is going on. 
So we hate AI. I hate it when a handful of the desktops in an office 
running Windows >XP decide that the network is unsafe and just deny 
access somehow with some undocumented mechanism. I can ping. I can 
resolve. But none of the desktop programs work because of the yellow 
exclamation mark. Some command line fu to force the system into a state, 
and we're back in business.


A few choice quotes:
"The Unix misconception is a pretty interesting one, because most people 
who say Systemd is un-Unixish have no idea what Unix is actually like.


What’s typical for Unix, for example, is that all the tools, the C 
library, the kernel, are all maintained in the same repository, right? 
And they’re released in sync, have the same coding style, the same build 
infrastructure, the same release cycles – everything’s the same. So you 
get the entire central part of the operating system like that. If people 
claim that, because we stick a lot of things into the Systemd 
repository, then it’s un-Unixish, then it’s absolutely the opposite. 
It’s more Unix-ish than Linux ever was!"


Nice one pulling the wool over the reporters eyes. What people mean by 
un-Unixish has nothing about releasing code and coding style. It has 
everything to do with one tool for one job. Lennart knows this and he is 
being intellectually and academically dishonest. I wouldn't hire him. 
Well, he does seem sly enough for sales.


"We thought: if you want to solve this properly, then you need to let 
the computer do these things. And this had lots of different effects: 
for example, Upstart always maximised what happened on the system, while 
we think you always have to minimise what happens."


I don't like Upstart or Cannonical, but, here he says what most admins 
do not like. Why would you want to minimize what happens? He is like the 
new Steve Jobs. "You shall like what I decide is best for you. You don't 
need options. I know how everyone will use the machine." These guys just 
want to be worshiped. They don't play well with the other kids.


Simon

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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Simon Walter]

Hi everyone,

After some testing, I have a question about an option in 
/etc/default/shorewall:

wait_interface
If I add the bridge interface to that line, shorewall will not start 
unless a container is brought up. I suppose that is why I was thinking 
of bridging the bridge inerface with a tap interface so that it's always 
available.


It seems that bridges do not start with ifup (-a) unless one of their 
bridged interfaces are up.


Or I could do as Mr. Hobson does and run shorewall in a container. Would 
that actually be a more insulated "secure" approach?


Thanks and kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Simon Walter]

On 06/09/2016 10:24 PM, Simon Hobson wrote:

Or I could do as Mr. Hobson does and run shorewall in a container. Would that actually be 
a more insulated "secure" approach?


"Security" is a relative thing, and depends on your priorities. Putting the 
firewall in it's own VM would improve isolation (the netfilter rules will be processed in 
the VM) - but the traffic still goes through the host Dom0. You can, AIUI, reduce this 
latter bit by running a separate driver domain to own the virtual interfaces and further 
insulate the traffic from Dom0.
You could also use PCI passthrough to make a NIC owned by a VM - so Dom0 
doesn't handle the packets.

But this all depends on your priorities (or level of paranoia !). I don't think handling 
the network traffic in Dom0 is "insecure" - just not as secure as if it doesn't 
handle it.



Indeed. And if I was really paranoid, I might use something other than 
LXC, since other technologies isolate even more. Though, I might put the 
firewall in it's own container even if just for the sake of 
modularity/maintenance.



On 06/10/2016 08:06 AM, Greg Olsen wrote:
> On 2016-06-09 02:50, Simon Walter wrote:
>> It seems that bridges do not start with ifup (-a) unless one of their
>> bridged interfaces are up.
>
> That doesn't sound right.
> Here's a bridge I have defined for LXC containers:
>
> auto lxcbr0
> iface lxcbr0 inet static
>  pre-upbrctl addbr $IFACE
>  address   10.0.0.1
>  netmask   255.255.0.0
>  network   10.0.0.0
>  broadcast 10.0.255.255
>  bridge_stp off   # disable Spanning Tree Protocol
>  bridge_waitport 0# no delay before a port becomes
> available
>  bridge_fd 0  # no forwarding delay
>  upip link set $IFACE up
>  down  ip link set $IFACE down
>  post-down brctl delbr $IFACE
>
> The IP address is assigned as part of the bridge definition. Like
> Rainer said, no tap device needed.
>
> Due to the "auto lxcbr0" the bridge is brought up automatically
> during system startup.
> It comes up just fine with *no* containers running.

Though, you do need to specify the bridge to be created and destroyed, 
which is something I thought was done automatically. It is when there 
are ports specified. As Rainer pointed out, when bridge_ports is "none", 
then the bridge device is created automatically and one not need to 
create it and destroy it pre-up and post-down. Though it seems to do it 
explicitly is a bit faster. I am not sure which is better or if there 
are any side affects.


> Here's the ifstate resulting from ifup:
> # grep lxcbr0 /run/network/ifstate
> lxcbr0=lxcbr0
>
> I've never had the need to specify a *bridge* interface on the
> Shorewall wait_interface list.
>
> /etc/default/shorewall "wait_interface" is used when you need to
> detect a dynamically assigned IP.  I.e. so
> 'find_first_interface_address' can return an IP, which it can't do if
> one hasn't been assigned yet.
>
> However as can be seen in the example above, it already has an IP and
> therefore no need for Shorewall to *wait* for one to be assigned. I
> suggest leaving the bridge off the wait list.

OK, that's good to know. I couldn't find documentation for it. I wasn't 
sure what it was for.


> In my setup Dnsmasq is configured to listen on the bridge IP.  When
> dnsmasq starts up, the bridge is already there. The LXC containers
> are then DHCP assigned the bridge IP as their default GW.  And the
> kernel handles the routing from there, provided IP forwarding is
> turned on.
>
> To have Shorewall turn on forwarding for you, just specify
> "IP_FORWARDING=On" in /etc/shorewall/shorewall.conf.

Yes, I did notice this and have that set up. In fact it was working in 
the convoluted way with a tap interface. However, thanks to everyone's 
advice, the end result will probably be much better.


Thanks and kind regards,

Simon
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[DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

Hi all,

I am wondering if it is a good idea to submit a modified version of the 
debian template to the upstream LXC project.


I am not sure who wrote those scripts. It seems like that is part of LXC 
source. So I am guessing it has nothing to do with the Debian LXC 
package maintainer.


Also, I wouldn't want to submit something for Devaun to LXC without at 
least one other LXC + Devaun user taking a look at it and kicking the tires.


Or maybe someone has already modified the debian template for Devuan.

Checking (/usr/share/lxc/templates/lxc-debian), it looks like sysvinit 
is in use:

# configure the inittab
cat < $rootfs/etc/inittab
id:3:initdefault:
si::sysinit:/etc/init.d/rcS
l0:0:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 0
l1:1:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 1
l2:2:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 2
l3:3:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 3
l4:4:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 4
l5:5:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 5
l6:6:wait:/etc/init.d/rc 6
# Normally not reached, but fallthrough in case of emergency.
z6:6:respawn:/sbin/sulogin
1:2345:respawn:/sbin/getty 38400 console
c1:12345:respawn:/sbin/getty 38400 tty1 linux
c2:12345:respawn:/sbin/getty 38400 tty2 linux
c3:12345:respawn:/sbin/getty 38400 tty3 linux
c4:12345:respawn:/sbin/getty 38400 tty4 linux
p6::ctrlaltdel:/sbin/init 6
p0::powerfail:/sbin/init 0
EOF

Hence there is a bug about LXC containers not working with systemd yet.

So maybe this is a good base and just the MIRROR needs changing.

Kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

(A little update)

What I did was:
cp /usr/share/lxc/templates/lxc-debian /usr/share/lxc/templates/lxc-devuan
cp /usr/share/lxc/config/debian.common.conf 
/usr/share/lxc/config/devuan.common.conf
cp /usr/share/lxc/config/debian.userns.conf 
/usr/share/lxc/config/devuan.userns.conf


I don't know if the last one is used. It doesn't seem to be referenced 
in the template.


Then I:
- removed the function configure_debian_systemd.
- changed the MIRROR to https://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/
- removed debian from all the function names
- changed debian to devuan in all the messages

Then I created a container the new template.

There were some warnings.

insserv: warning: current start runlevel(s) (empty) of script 
`checkroot.sh' overrides LSB defaults (S).
insserv: warning: current stop runlevel(s) (S) of script `checkroot.sh' 
overrides LSB defaults (empty).
insserv: warning: current start runlevel(s) (empty) of script 
`checkroot.sh' overrides LSB defaults (S).

update-rc.d: error: umountfs Default-Start contains no runlevels, aborting.
insserv: warning: current start runlevel(s) (empty) of script 
`hwclock.sh' overrides LSB defaults (S).
insserv: warning: current stop runlevel(s) (0 6 S) of script 
`hwclock.sh' overrides LSB defaults (0 6).

update-rc.d: error: cannot find a LSB script for hwclockfirst.sh

These are the same warning encountered with the Debian template. So if 
anything we should fix that for Devuan, but it doesn't seem to be a problem.


I then modified the containters config and network settings and it 
started and seems to work fine.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] ifconfig vs ip

[Simon Walter]

On 06/10/2016 03:55 PM, Greg Olsen wrote:

On 2016-06-10 06:34, Greg Olsen wrote:
[snip]
 > The only side-effect are the extra messages during ifup with
 > "bridge_ports none":
 >
 > iface testbr1 inet static
 > bridge_ports none
 > address 10.91.0.1
 > netmask 255.255.0.0
 > network 10.91.0.0
 > broadcast 10.91.255.255
 > bridge_stp off   # disable Spanning Tree Protocol
 > bridge_waitport 0# no delay before a port becomes
available
 > bridge_fd 0  # no forwarding delay
 > upip link set $IFACE up
 > down  ip link set $IFACE down

Sorry to respond to my own post here:
I meant to remove the up/down statements in the example above. Those
aren't needed either when using "bridge_ports none".


No, that's cool and thanks for explaining. I think the up/down 
statements are not needed at all. It seems to work without them - 
whether using pre/post line or "bridge_ports none".


Using "bridge_ports none" and then having post line delete the bridge 
does however cause message to say the device does not exist.


I am a bit confused about the distros relationship with ifupdown. Isn't 
/etc/network/interfaces Debian specific? So I am guessing the ifup/down 
is a different program on say CentOS. I should try to stay relevant even 
though I use mostly Devaun now.


Cheers,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

On 06/10/2016 05:11 PM, KatolaZ wrote:

On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 12:41:36PM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:

Hi all,

I am wondering if it is a good idea to submit a modified version of the
debian template to the upstream LXC project.

I am not sure who wrote those scripts. It seems like that is part of LXC
source. So I am guessing it has nothing to do with the Debian LXC package
maintainer.


Hi Simon,

I think you might want to liaise with Greg Olsen on Devuan support for
LXC. You probably know that there is already some material on the
gitlab:

   https://git.devuan.org/gregolsen/lxc-devuan



Nice. Thank you for pointing that out. I see Greg has already done most 
of this.


Greg, on the page there is:
$ git clone g...@git.devuan.org:gregolsen/lxc-devuan.git

For read access maybe it would work better if it was:
$ git clone http://git.devuan.org/gregolsen/lxc-devuan.git

I couldn't clone it using the git protocol (if that is what is called).

I will give the templates a go now.

Do you have plans to include that into an upstream release? Do you know 
if those are maintained by a Debian maintainer or by the LXC project 
itself? I am guess that those are distro specific. So would that mean 
that the Debian maintainer might not be interested in the Devuan 
templates? Of course Debian users may very well want a Devaun 
containers. If so, then it would be nice if there was an LXC package for 
Devuan so we don't need to clone a git repo to have those templates.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

On 06/10/2016 05:35 PM, Simon Walter wrote:

On 06/10/2016 05:11 PM, KatolaZ wrote:

On Fri, Jun 10, 2016 at 12:41:36PM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:

Hi all,

I am wondering if it is a good idea to submit a modified version of the
debian template to the upstream LXC project.

I am not sure who wrote those scripts. It seems like that is part of LXC
source. So I am guessing it has nothing to do with the Debian LXC
package
maintainer.


Hi Simon,

I think you might want to liaise with Greg Olsen on Devuan support for
LXC. You probably know that there is already some material on the
gitlab:

   https://git.devuan.org/gregolsen/lxc-devuan



Nice. Thank you for pointing that out. I see Greg has already done most
of this.

Greg, on the page there is:
$ git clone g...@git.devuan.org:gregolsen/lxc-devuan.git

For read access maybe it would work better if it was:
$ git clone http://git.devuan.org/gregolsen/lxc-devuan.git

I couldn't clone it using the git protocol (if that is what is called).

I will give the templates a go now.


I had some issues:
perl: warning: Setting locale failed.
perl: warning: Please check that your locale settings:
LANGUAGE = "en_US:en",
LC_ALL = (unset),
LANG = "en_US.UTF-8"
are supported and installed on your system.
perl: warning: Falling back to the standard locale ("C").

Over ten times repeated, but more importantly:
lxc_container: Failed to parse config: lxc.include = 
/usr/share/lxc/config/common.conf


lxc_container: Failed to parse config: lxc.include = 
/usr/share/lxc/config/devuan.common.conf


By the way, I have Devuan alpha4 installed. So maybe that is the issue 
there. Though, with my modified config and templates, I didn't have 
those errors.


Let me know if there is anything I can do to help test etc.

Many thanks,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

On 06/10/2016 06:16 PM, Jaromil wrote:

On Fri, 10 Jun 2016, Simon Walter wrote:

I will give the templates a go now.


thanks!



I am going to try Greg's template on the BETA release.

My simple edit on the alpha4 worked fine, but Greg's templates didn't 
work as well. So I am trying with BETA.



Do you have plans to include that into an upstream release?


yes, especially if more than one person gets involved so we have some
degree of peer review. Also please note we are in the process of
setting up a builder server on the premises of our HQ in Amsterdam and
all its setup is based on LXC. Hellekin is currently going through its
configuration and I can hear little sounds of satisfaction and success
across the day coming from his desk. But I'm not aware if Hk is using
Greg's template.


So you are bootstraped? Using Devuan to build Devuan?




If so, then it would be nice if there was an LXC package for Devuan
so we don't need to clone a git repo to have those templates.


sure, if such a team forms and a .deb package is ready, made through a
somehow collective process involving more than one developer, it will
be certainly included in our repositories.



OK, wonderful. I am doing lots of tests for my work too. So I will 
definitely be sending feedback around.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

On 06/10/2016 10:39 PM, Greg Olsen wrote:

On 2016-06-10 08:59, Simon Walter wrote:
[snip]
 > > I will give the templates a go now.


I had some issues:
perl: warning: Setting locale failed.
perl: warning: Please check that your locale settings:
LANGUAGE = "en_US:en",
LC_ALL = (unset),
LANG = "en_US.UTF-8"
are supported and installed on your system.
perl: warning: Falling back to the standard locale ("C").

Over ten times repeated, but more importantly:


Simon, thanks for testing.

I think the locale just isn't setup yet at that early point.
Perhaps a Perl expert can opine?


Maybe we can diff that?

> ...

This might be a bit surprising but I actually wrote lxc-devuan with
*non-Devuan* OS's in mind. To not discourage people from running Devuan,
it automatically downloads and uses the Devuan keyring. Without that
capability it won't get past square one on a non-Devuan OS, and the user
is likely to mumble some not so nice things about Devuan. Something to
be avoided if at all possible.


It seems to be fine with the 'auto' sub domain maybe because the keys 
are registered for that domain name. Are you saying that those keys are 
pre-installed on the image? If that's the case, I think we should make 
two versions, that are based on the same source - an include or 
something. One to be used on Devuan, one to be used by other distros 
that want to run Devuan containers.



I also added a feature or two that other OS templates don't have, such
as the ability to pre-assign the MAC address. I have absolutely no idea
if that's of interest to anyone but me. But if it is, that's yet one
more reason for people to choose Devuan over something else.


Yes, I really like that. It is very useful.



Of course, the paths won't end up correct on all distros until a version
of it makes it upstream, and then back down again, and that could take
quite some time. Therefore a script can/should be written to help
install it.


wget or maybe curl? What's on a base install?



In the meantime, anyone with a mind to "clone" and use the template as
is (without a proper package or script to install it) will have to
adjust paths as needed to match their system.

On the other hand there's nothing written anywhere that says we have to
use the lxc-devuan that I wrote. Not that I want to give up on it, but
If yours is already working correctly on Devuan Beta, we can always put
it in a different branch and use that.  We'll just have to see how
things plays out.


I've made an account on git.devuan.org (user: smwltr) How do you want to 
do this? Shall I fork your repo and apply a patch and then send you a 
pull request? After a look maybe the solution will present itself. I 
guess the .conf files too.


Let see how it goes.

Cheers,

Simon
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[DNG] Devuan on Android

[Simon Walter]

Hi all,

I want to report that I've installed Devuan on a "rooted" Android device 
using DebKit.


All I did was:
1. Change the package mirror to: auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged
2. After the debootstrap process is complete and under the chroot 
install the devuan-keyring package.


I tried to use some other apps like LilDebian, DebianKit, and 
LinuxDeploy, but for some reason they didn't work for installing Debian. 
So I didn't try Devuan.


It's nice to have Devuan on my portable computing device.

Thank you,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

On 06/14/2016 09:26 AM, Greg Olsen wrote:

On 2016-06-13 01:28, Simon Walter wrote:
[snip]
 > > This might be a bit surprising but I actually wrote lxc-devuan with
 > > *non-Devuan* OS's in mind. To not discourage people from running
Devuan,
 > > it automatically downloads and uses the Devuan keyring. Without that
 > > capability it won't get past square one on a non-Devuan OS, and the
user
 > > is likely to mumble some not so nice things about Devuan. Something to
 > > be avoided if at all possible.
 >
 > It seems to be fine with the 'auto' sub domain maybe because the keys
 > are registered for that domain name. Are you saying that those keys are
 > pre-installed on the image? If that's the case, I think we should make
 > two versions, that are based on the same source - an include or
 > something. One to be used on Devuan, one to be used by other distros
 > that want to run Devuan containers.

The issue isn't the domain and there's no pre-installed image.  It's a
chicken and egg problem to bootstrap the keyring to validate the signed
packages.


Well, maybe I didn't say it correctly. Is there already a devuan-keyring 
package on the iso-image? If so, that would explain why it works fine 
when the "host" is a Devuan installation.


My personal opinion is that keys should not be automatically downloaded 
and installed. But I am a bit paranoid.




Assume install on a foreign OS.  The foreign OS probably won't have a
Devuan keyring. When running debootstrap, among the packages it will
download is the keyring package. When it goes to validate the download
(which includes the keyring package), it doesn't have a key to validate,
so it fails with "Release signed by unknown key".


Yes. So, perhaps we have one script maintained for the Devuan OS and 
another for non-Devaun OSes, and they have most things in common.




[snip]
 > I've made an account on git.devuan.org (user: smwltr) How do you want to
 > do this? Shall I fork your repo and apply a patch and then send you a
 > pull request? After a look maybe the solution will present itself. I
 > guess the .conf files too.

Hi Simon,

For now we can work it that way.

I just pushed an update that adds support for LXC <= 1.0.8.

The README is updated to use ./config-1.0.8 for LXC <= 1.0.8
The existing ./config directory is for LXC >= 1.1.0

It'll be great if you'll test again.

So if you've already forked, please fetch and rebase.


Nice. Sure thing. I will be testing it out soon.

Kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

Hi Greg,

I've read had a look and a test. Please see my ramblings below. I am in 
no hurry. So please take your time. ;)


On 06/14/2016 10:02 AM, Greg Olsen wrote:

On 2016-06-14 00:39, Simon Walter wrote:

 > Well, maybe I didn't say it correctly. Is there already a devuan-keyring
 > package on the iso-image?

It's a debootstrap install. There's no iso-image involved.


I think that maybe you read my email too fast. So I will try to be verbose.

I install Devuan on my hardware from an iso CD-ROM image file copied to 
a USB memory device.


Next I install LXC.

Next I modify the debian template lxc-debian - remove systemd stuff, 
rename a bunch a of things and change the mirror.


When I use that modified template to lxc-create a container, I don't 
need to download any keys.


I am guessing because devuan-keyring is already installed from the iso 
CD-ROM image on the initial installation on my hardware.


Does that sound like the reason? Am I missing something?



 > My personal opinion is that keys should not be automatically downloaded
 > and installed. But I am a bit paranoid.

I understand your reservations. However it does **not** trust the
keyring on the user system.


Does that mean that it does not trust the keyring on the host? Is there 
a good reason for that? I thought the template checks for 
/usr/share/keyrings/devuan-keyring.gpg on the host.



It simply downloads it, issues a message it
was downloaded, and then passes the keyring file to the debootstrap
command for it to use validating packages.  So it's completely safe.


It downloads a keyring from a server. Is it in anyway possible to hijack 
those connections and download a different keyring to validate different 
packages from a different server? It would be a great big coordinated 
attack, but is it impossible?


The template defaults to downloading and also to passing --no-check-gpg.

I would suggest making the default to check for the devuan key and fail 
with an error message saying that the key was not found and telling the 
user that there is an argument they can specify to have it downloaded. 
That is IMHO the rule of least surprise.


Forgive my criticisms and questioning. In a world where we have people 
planting questionable code into open source in order to create back 
doors, we should be able to answer to this kind of criticism - if only 
to aid ourselves (think rubber duck programming).


Now on to the latest test I made:

The locale is set early enough to not have those warnings spew all over 
the screen. Excellent.


More importantly, the errors about the config files are gone. I had a 
look at the differences, and it all seems reasonable.


Also I notice gcc-4.8-base is being removed towards the end. I am sure 
there is a good reason for this and I am interested to know.


About the random MAC address feature, I see a comment:
## If there is exactly one veth network entry,
## make sure it has an associated hwaddr.

How does veth get into the config file at this point? Should the user 
create the config file before creating the container? It seems like 
there are so many options on how one could create the network. However, 
if arguments were given for a few things:

lxc.network.type
lxc.network.link
lxc.network.ipv4
lxc.network.ipv6
gateway
network

Then a simple network could be set up by the template - both the LXC 
config and the network inside the container. Otherwise it doesn't seem 
to work "out of the box." More complex configurations would require 
editing the config file.


There are a few more things I wanted to discuss.

- "Less bare bones than from debootstrap, however dependencies are kept 
minimal."


- OpenDNS name resolvers are set.

- The random password is removed. (I would suggest that if a password 
argument is not given, a random one is set.)


These seem like they are useful. My criticism is not directly at any one 
of these ideas. I am thinking of the naive user who doesn't expect to 
find things set up this way.


Maybe we need a bare template and then one with all the nice options. Or 
maybe we need this template to install the bare minimum if no arguments 
are given, and then when certain arguments are passed, we get OpenDNS, 
the password we want, and the nice set of packages, etc. If the 
arguments are available, then at least the user has an vague idea, 
without reading the template, of what is possible and what the container 
will be set up like.


Because packages are removed after the root password is displayed, it 
gets pushed up the screen. It would be nice to have that as the last 
thing that is displayed.


If you want me to hack on any of this let me know.

Kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

On 06/15/2016 10:26 AM, Greg Olsen wrote:

On 2016-06-14 09:22, Simon Walter wrote:

 > I think that maybe you read my email too fast. So I will try to be
verbose.

Hi Simon,

If I misread then I apologize.



No need to!


...
 >
 > Also I notice gcc-4.8-base is being removed towards the end. I am sure
 > there is a good reason for this and I am interested to know.

I got that from the "Minimal Install Guide":
https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Minimal-install-guide


See section entitled "Removing unwanted packages".


I will have a read.

...

 > How does veth get into the config file at this point? Should the user
 > create the config file before creating the container?

The stock default.conf from Jessie:
# cat /etc/lxc/default.conf.orig
lxc.network.type = empty
#

So the default for everyone regardless of the template used is "no"
network.


The coin drops. I see. That is what is going on.


...
My intent was not to teach how to use LXC. That's why the reference in
the README "LXC Documentation" section.

In hindsight I must admit, it will be better to show the default.conf
file, as was used to arrive at the result in Example 7.  I have another
tweak planned for the README, so I can add that to the list.


Nice. Thank you for explaining. I must admit, I didn't know that even 
file existed.



Yep.  A simple network could be set up "out of the box".

However I must first ask, what happened to your "rule of least surprise" ?


Yes, I stand by my suggestion that the default is minimal and everything 
else takes parameters. How does that contradict the rule of least 
surprise? If they are not specified, then no action is taken. By the way 
it's not *my* rule - just something I was taught similar to convention 
over configuration.



IMHO it's unfair to state it doesn't seem to work when the default use
case is, *no* network.

Being the default is *no* network, I think we have the responsibility to
also consider, the existing user base has good reason to expect no
communications can occur unless they explicitly change their default.conf.


Yes, please pardon my ignorance. Everything makes more sense in light of 
that file.



 > There are a few more things I wanted to discuss.
 >
 > - "Less bare bones than from debootstrap, however dependencies are kept
 > minimal."

Package inclusion and exclusion is indeed open to discussion/debate.

 > - OpenDNS name resolvers are set.

I thought about setting the IP's in variables with template options for
override purposes.

 > - The random password is removed. (I would suggest that if a password
 > argument is not given, a random one is set.)

New containers have root password = root, the same as lxc-debian provides.
I simply kept with that expectation, and that people should change the
root password.

Beyond that I haven't given much time/consideration.

What do all the other templates do with this?
Do we want to depart from the expectations admins may already have from
working with other templates?


Hmmm... I am not sure which version you are using. I see this in lxc-debian:

password="$(dd if=/dev/urandom bs=6 count=1 2> /dev/null | base64)"
echo "root:$password" | chroot $rootfs chpasswd
echo "Root password is '$password', please change !"

I know some of the other templates to use 'root' as the password. I have 
seen this criticized:

https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/LXC_Template_Security_Improvements



 > These seem like they are useful. My criticism is not directly at any one
 > of these ideas.

I don't take any of what you said as criticism. I think tossing around
ideas for improvement is a good thing.


OK. Good. I don't want to piss anyone off, and my social skills are not 
that smooth. So I worry.




I also see things as falling into a category:
1. Base functionality (priority, need it now)
2. Enhancements (nice to have)

I think the immediate focus should be to get the base functionality
correct, submit upstream, and make a package available.


I think what you have so far is most of the way there.



Work on enhancements can start anytime, including now if you're so
inclined. A typical way to handle enhancements is for each developer to
work in their own feature branch, for possible later inclusion in master
branch.


I am not familiar with gitlab. Does one join a project? Or should I 
create a new project? Or should I just hack locally and send a pull 
request? I am also wondering if some place on gitlab is better to 
discuss when I have a question for this project. Or right here on DNG? I 
don't want to start on adding things like some of those template 
parameters and then you've already done it. You seem pretty fast paced. 
I hope I can keep up!


Cheers,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[Simon Walter]

On 06/15/2016 06:21 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:
...


But if so: Shouldn't we investigate the installer? I mean, it's not
really user friendly to have an installer subject to that kind of
errors. And in my experience there are even other problems like the
overheating problem for amd graphics based machines, at least for some
of them. Or the fact, that the installer seems to not install the base
system it brings itself but seems to pull it from the mirrors.

Anyway, i'm well aware human ressources at Devuan are limited but the
installer should be worth a major consideration (?)


Since it is a universal OS. I would suggest we disable the graphical 
installer if it causing people to be put off. This may sound like 
heresy, but the text base installer is not minimal and it is fully 
functional.


I remember back in the days when Debian got the graphical installer, it 
was to be treated as BETA quality and if it didn't work, to use the text 
base.


I think the same applies here. Maybe we need to put a "use with caution" 
note. I think there was something like this on the original Debian 
graphical installer.


We are not so spoiled that we need to use a mouse for everything, are we?

Simon

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Re: [DNG] cosmetic installer issues

[Simon Walter]

On 06/15/2016 08:16 PM, richard lucassen wrote:
...

1) Wishlist: a real PXE installer like Debian is providing. Just an
intrd.gz and a vmlinuz that will guide you through the install process.
No need for USB sticks or CD drives. Running a PXE installer together
with an apt-cacher-ng saves time (internal network speed) and saves
bandwidth usage for the Devuan community.


I think this would be really useful and professional.

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Installer Devuan Jessie 1.0 fails

[Simon Walter]

On 06/15/2016 08:52 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:


We are not so spoiled that we need to use a mouse for everything, are
we?

Simon


My problem (the failure while installing the base system) happens in
both, the graphical and the text mode installer.

I'd suspect there's something wrong with the underlying routines (as
also L. Nodden noted).

A working and solid keyboard only installer would be fine for me - and
i think for most users: It's all about being well explained, input
error tollerant and solid ...

(I could even live fine with an i3 based desktop, when it is well
done ;) ).



Aha! OK, then please disregard my comment. Because I thought the problem 
was only with the graphical installer. It seems it is something deeper.


Do you get the overheating/CPU problem? I think that could be debugged, 
but it would have to be done on the problem machine.


This is a good idea:

On 06/09/2016 05:28 AM, Paweł Cholewiński wrote:
> W dniu 07.06.2016 o 12:38, emnin...@riseup.net pisze:
>> (How can i debug the installation?)
>
> You could use this document:
> 
https://git.devuan.org/dev1fanboy/Upgrade-Install-Devuan/wikis/Minimal-install-guide

>
> Use debootstrap --variant=minbase --include=nano,nvi,procps jessie
> /target http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged to add top command - You
> could use top on another console i.e. ctrl+alt+F3 after chroot to /target

Though maybe, while the installer is being perfected, there should be 
some tools for debugging available, rather than just busybox. Then 
people with problems can more easily help debug them and get the 
valuable info to the developers.


I installed from the netinstaller. So maybe on the full CD there is top 
and other tools. Anyone know what programs are on about the full CD?


Simon
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Re: [DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

On 06/18/2016 10:31 AM, Greg Olsen wrote:
...


In the meantime, I added Simon Walter as a Developer for lxc-devuan.

Simon,

As a developer you can push directly to the main development branch. I
added a "draft" Contribution guide, and I'll be following the same
process myself as outlined.



Hi Greg,

Thanks for that. I will dig in soon. I am pretty busy at the day job. So 
much so that I'm in the office on the weekend.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] LXC template for Devuan

[Simon Walter]

On 06/20/2016 07:28 AM, Greg Olsen wrote:

Hi Simon,

No rush. Unless I find some glaring bug, after a bit more testing I
intend to refocus on pushing upstream and what's needed to make
"lxc-devuan" packages for Jessie/Ascii/Ceres. It'll be the first .deb
package I've made completely from scratch (suggestions are welcome,
please).

Disable --no-check-gpg as the fallback?  No votes against this:
+1 Simon Walter
+1 Greg Olsen

So when convenient, I may go ahead and disable that.



Hi Greg,

I've added a branch called add-netconf, which you have probably seen.

I thought to just add one feature per branch so that review is easier. 
Let me know how you prefer to collaborate.


I was not sure about what style/standards we are using. However, the 
hashbang tells me bash. I looked at the other templates, and most use bash.


I wasn't sure if having all the settings in one argument or separate was 
better. The logic behind having them all in one argument is that all 
those are needed and cannot be derived from one another. So IP, netmask, 
and gateway are all in one comma separated argument. Maybe the parameter 
name should be "interface" or "ifconfig".


For my next edit, I would like to add the password parameter and if not 
specified would set a random one.


Then I was thinking of adding a parameter for MAC address, in case it 
should be explicitly set or not set or set to a random address.


I would appreciate your comments on that and of course on the netconf 
parameter and it's functionality.


One question, is --main-only the default? What is the default for the 
Devuan install? I am not sure, but I think the default is only main. If 
so, maybe we should reverse that argument to be something like 
--extra-repos. Or even --add-repos=main,non-free. That way the use can 
specify exactly the additional repositories on the command line.


I think that would be very useful for orchestration tools such as 
vagrant or cdist for example.


Cheers,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] [OT] [Re: Studying C as told. (For help)

[Simon Walter]

On 06/21/2016 05:28 PM, KatolaZ wrote:

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 08:22:41AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:

[cut]



I studied 'and' and 'or' boolean operators back when I studied Delphi
Pascal. I am embarrassed to have written such a stupid thing. It must
be due to the fact I wrote the email just before going to bed.

AND: requires ALL sub-expressions to be true to evaluate to true
i.e.   Q = A ^ B ^ C ^  D
 Q = 1 if and only if A = B = C =  D = 1

OR: only requires ONE sub-exression to be true to evaluate to true
i.e.   Q = A v B v C v  D
 Q = 1 if any Ai = 1

These properties are used by compilers to optimize on boolean
expression evaluation. If I remember well, there are also specific


Be careful, because conditional expressions in C are subject to
"short-circuiting", meaning that only the minimum number of
expressions sufficient to determine the value of a chain of && and ||
will be evaluated. In particular, a chain of || expressions will be
evaluated until there is one that evaluates to TRUE (!=0), while a
chain of && is evaluated until there is one of them which evaluates to
false (==0).



Isn't that how AND and OR work in most programming languages? Mind you, 
I am not familiar with that many.

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Re: [DNG] [OT] [Re: Studying C as told. (For help)

[Simon Walter]

On 06/21/2016 06:09 PM, KatolaZ wrote:

On Tue, Jun 21, 2016 at 05:47:59PM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:

[cut]


Be careful, because conditional expressions in C are subject to
"short-circuiting", meaning that only the minimum number of
expressions sufficient to determine the value of a chain of && and ||
will be evaluated. In particular, a chain of || expressions will be
evaluated until there is one that evaluates to TRUE (!=0), while a
chain of && is evaluated until there is one of them which evaluates to
false (==0).



Isn't that how AND and OR work in most programming languages? Mind you, I am
not familiar with that many.


I didn't say that short-circuiting is a peculiarity of C :)


Aha! You certainly didn't. I was surprised that "non-short-circuiting" 
logical operators even existed.



I simply
said that short-circuiting is how C evaluates conditional
expressions. There are many cases (such as that of FORTRAN) in which
short-circuiting can be enabled or disabled at compile time, many
other cases (e.g. most of the dialects of BASIC and some other
esoteric languages) in which short-circuting does not exist, and many
more cases in which the language supports both eager and short-circuit
boolean operators (e.g., Java, Python, Perl, Ruby, etc.)

Boolean expressions in C are always subject to short-circuting.



Interesting. And here I was taking "short-circuiting" for granted. Well, 
you learn something new everyday. I will be sure to keep that in mind.


Can you to point me to those other operators that do not "short-circuit" 
in Java, Python, Perl, and Ruby? Are the operators different, or do you 
have to change the behaviour with a switch?


I am thinking we might use single ampersand or pipe (bitwise). Can we 
use bitwise operators as what would be a non-short-circuiting logical 
operator in C (or other languages)?


Very interesting!

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Studying C as told. (For help)

[Simon Walter]

On 06/23/2016 11:26 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:
...

[1]. Actually, the English alphabet had more letters: þ, ð, ƿ[2] and ȝ, but
they got dropped as early printing presses imported from Germany lacked
these characters.  Before the technology was copied and fonts could be
manufactured domestically, the English suddenly had orders of magnitude more
reading material lacking their letters than older handwritten works.
(This is a gross simplification.)  So let's have this in mind when you skip
support for non-modern-English characters.


Funny how this is now the other way around with ß.

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Re: [DNG] some fun

[Simon Walter]

On 06/29/2016 08:14 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

Since we're so serious may be some fun is nice, making life
easier ... :) I stumbled upon this by chance and i liked it a lot (I
post the link although i think probably many of you know it already):

http://systemd-free.org/img/systemd-can.jpg



It made me laugh. Thanks!
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Re: [DNG] UPdate error

[Simon Walter]

On 07/07/2016 08:02 AM, Paweł Cholewiński wrote:

Hi,
during "apt-get update" error appear "Error
http://auto.mirror.devuan.org jessie-security/main amd64 Packages
Undetermined Error".
When I looked at
"http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-security/"; address
has changed to
"http://amprolla.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-security/"; and another
error appeared "The page isn't redirecting properly

Pale Moon has detected that the server is redirecting the request for
this address in a way that will never complete.

 This problem can sometimes be caused by disabling or refusing to
accept cookies."
With another browser I can see similar error.

I think, amprolla admin action is needed.



Ja, I see the same thing since morning (+9GMT).
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Re: [DNG] UPdate error

[Simon Walter]

On 07/08/2016 08:13 AM, Daniel Reurich wrote:

On 08/07/16 03:28, Jaromil wrote:

On Thu, 07 Jul 2016, hellekin wrote:


On 07/06/2016 11:02 PM, Paweł Cholewiński wrote:

Hi,
during "apt-get update" error appear "Error
http://auto.mirror.devuan.org jessie-security/main amd64 Packages
Undetermined Error".


Same here:

W: Failed to fetch
tor+http://devuanfwojg73k6r.onion/merged/dists/jessie-security/main/binary-amd64/Packages
  Maximum (10) redirects followed


don't worry its Nextime working on the amprolla pipes
this is expected
its called "the beta rumble"



I believe this issue is fixed now.  Was an issue with the redirects.



I love it. I can feel Devuan is alive! Thanks guys!
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Re: [DNG] systemd==bad

[Simon Walter]

On 07/08/2016 09:23 AM, Hughe Chung wrote:


Who was the organizer of the conference? How they allowed frequent
interruption by the idiot during the presentation?

It was a real video footage. A drunken idiot went to the stage at the
end of presentation carrying a bear bottle on one hand.

I posted the video link to other FOSS forum.

Action outweighs thousands words of the person. The time will tell how
much damage would systemd cause on FOSS ecosphere overall. Empty
promises of systemd.


Absolutely. Lennart's attitude of "it's free, so don't complain" and "no 
one is forcing you to use it" is deceptive. If I make a calculator and 
release it under an open source license, I might be able to use that 
line. You can't have that attitude when you are making (what should be) 
inter-operable components of an operating system. He continually commits 
logical fallacies and says "You should know..." He seems very snobby. 
The beer part was over the top. They should have never given him a 
microphone. He's obviously a bully and therefore insecure. He has 
something to prove.


This is why I am horrified. The Debian Technical Committee let 
themselves be bullied and by doing so have proven that they cannot be 
trusted to protect our freedom. You would think that Michael Tiemann 
would speak out, but I guess he has to be careful with his meal ticket. 
Shall we make a web site that documents sellouts in the tech industry? I 
think "name and shame" is appropriate with this level of depravity. If 
we can't trust them, word should get out the their opinions are bought.


That is my free opinion ;)

Simon
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Re: [DNG] systemd==bad

[Simon Walter]

On 07/08/2016 05:01 PM, KatolaZ wrote:

On Fri, Jul 08, 2016 at 04:34:27PM +0900, Simon Walter wrote:

On 07/08/2016 09:23 AM, Hughe Chung wrote:


Who was the organizer of the conference? How they allowed frequent
interruption by the idiot during the presentation?

It was a real video footage. A drunken idiot went to the stage at the
end of presentation carrying a bear bottle on one hand.

I posted the video link to other FOSS forum.

Action outweighs thousands words of the person. The time will tell how
much damage would systemd cause on FOSS ecosphere overall. Empty
promises of systemd.


Absolutely. Lennart's attitude of "it's free, so don't complain" and "no one
is forcing you to use it" is deceptive. If I make a calculator and release
it under an open source license, I might be able to use that line. You can't
have that attitude when you are making (what should be) inter-operable
components of an operating system. He continually commits logical fallacies
and says "You should know..." He seems very snobby. The beer part was over
the top. They should have never given him a microphone. He's obviously a
bully and therefore insecure. He has something to prove.



You are making a simplifying assumption here, which might somehow
affect the conclusions. Namely, that they are interested in making
"interoperable components", which is clearly not the case, since the
usual answer you get from that crew is "won't fix" and "it's your
software and your problem, not mine".


Yes, you're right. It is clearly not the case, indeed. However, I think, 
in his own mind, Lennart thinks he is doing the world a favor and we 
should be grateful for his works of wonder. He probably believes his 
system is highly interoperable. Of course, we, as lowly peons, need to 
make sure to conform with his fantastic, open minded ideas. Please smell 
the sarcasm.


Though, I don't understand how I am making an simplifying assumption. I 
am trying to invoke Hanlon's razor.



I am nevertheless convinced that evolution will eventually average out
such evident anomalies, because the free software community has been
based on collaborative behaviour, and if "won't fix" becomes the norm,
there will not be a community any more...


Totally agree and am very thankful for the community, but so far, 
everyone that I know of, except for this group here, has bowed to 
Lennart's (and Red Hat's) "amazing wisdom."


The image I get from the web is that most developers are oh so happy to 
jump on the systemd bandwagon. Please tell me I am wrong. I think we can 
assume GNU will stay free of it, but what of lovely works such as 
postfix? I pray developers are wise enough to ignore systemd or to make 
any systemd hooks that they would like to program, *optional*. I know 
some have gone this way.

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[DNG] devuan.org OK?

[Simon Walter]

Is there anything going on with devuan.org domain name? Did I miss an 
announcement of down time?


Kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] devuan.org OK?

[Simon Walter]

Oh... My ISP is . Thanks for the heads up.

Simon

On 07/11/2016 10:13 AM, Ozi Traveller wrote:

It's ok here.
Ozi

On Mon, Jul 11, 2016 at 10:43 AM, Simon Walter mailto:si...@gikaku.com>> wrote:

Is there anything going on with devuan.org <http://devuan.org>
domain name? Did I miss an announcement of down time?

Kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] problem with devuan merged repositories

[Simon Walter]

On 07/11/2016 04:51 PM, emnin...@riseup.net wrote:

When i do `apt-get update` i get the following error msgs:


Err:12 http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii InRelease
   Temporary failure resolving 'de.mirror.devuan.org'
Err:13 http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii-security
InRelease Temporary failure resolving 'de.mirror.devuan.org'
Err:14 http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged ascii-updates
InRelease Temporary failure resolving 'de.mirror.devuan.org'
Err:15 http://packages.devuan.org/merged ascii
InRelease Temporary failure resolving 'packages.devuan.org'
Fetched 3020 B in 7s (423
B/s) Reading package lists... Done
W: Failed to fetch
http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii/InRelease  Temporary
failure resolving 'de.mirror.devuan.org' W: Failed to fetch
http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii-security/InRelease
Temporary failure resolving 'de.mirror.devuan.org' W: Failed to fetch
http://de.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii-updates/InRelease
Temporary failure resolving 'de.mirror.devuan.org' W: Failed to fetch
http://packages.devuan.org/merged/dists/ascii/InRelease  Temporary
failure resolving 'packages.devuan.org' W: Some index files failed to
download. They have been ignored, or old ones used instead.


Thanks in advance for any pointer!


I started experiencing something similar today:

Err http://auto.mirror.devuan.org jessie-security InRelease

Err http://auto.mirror.devuan.org jessie-security Release.gpg
  Unable to connect to amprolla.devuan.org:http:
Reading package lists... Done
W: Failed to fetch 
http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-security/InRelease


W: Failed to fetch 
http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-security/Release.gpg 
Unable to connect to amprolla.devuan.org:http:


W: Some index files failed to download. They have been ignored, or old 
ones used instead.


...

# wget http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-security/InRelease
--2016-07-11 16:57:42-- 
http://auto.mirror.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-security/InRelease
Resolving auto.mirror.devuan.org (auto.mirror.devuan.org)... 
46.105.191.77, 2001:41d0:8:2c55::a2
Connecting to auto.mirror.devuan.org 
(auto.mirror.devuan.org)|46.105.191.77|:80... connected.

HTTP request sent, awaiting response... 302 Moved Temporarily
Location: 
http://amprolla.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-security/InRelease 
[following]
--2016-07-11 16:57:42-- 
http://amprolla.devuan.org/merged/dists/jessie-security/InRelease

Resolving amprolla.devuan.org (amprolla.devuan.org)... 50.240.103.34
Connecting to amprolla.devuan.org 
(amprolla.devuan.org)|50.240.103.34|:80... failed: Connection timed out.

Retrying.

Though I am pretty sure the admins and devs are aware of this. Perhaps 
more BETA rumbles.


Cheers,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Can't connect to Amprolla?

[Simon Walter]

On 07/12/2016 05:20 AM, Linux O'Beardly wrote:

Alright, the Amprolla host is back up.  Apparently, we had a power
outage and it shutdown.  Obviously, being out of town, I wasn't there to
power it back up.  Let me know if you all have any issues.


Thank you!
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Re: [DNG] [Kali Linux 0003165]: Find a way to disable most services by default with systemd

[Simon Walter]

On 07/12/2016 06:06 AM, Jaromil wrote:


Mostly for historical reasons, I'm posting here below the trace of a
Kali Linux bug that has just been deleted from their tracker.

Forensic distros are useful for many reasons. When minimal they can be
also more reliable, I guess most people here convenes.  So now I'm
trying to get the Parrot OS developers interested in having a spin
based on Devuan, with no success. Unfortunately Their parrot-build
scripts are admittedly still incomplete to reproduce a release.

Anyone here has a strong (perhaps professional, hence sustainable)
interest in a forensic distro without systemd?



Oddly enough, I gave Kali a go yesterday. I haven't used it since it was 
Backtrack and was surprised to see everything all GNOMEd up and juicy 
and sparkling with lag and useless eye candy. Right away I checked to 
see if they cared enough to remove systemd. Nope. I shut her down and 
kept going with nmap for the time being - and until I educate myself on 
some of the new toys. Right now I don't have time for fancy toys 
especially if they spend all their time being fancy and sparkling.


Yes, I would love to have a toolbox for pen testing that was minimal. 
Mind you, I don't do pen testing for a living - it's just a turf check.

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Re: [DNG] problem with devuan merged repositories

[Simon Walter]

On 07/12/2016 10:05 AM, Brian Nash wrote:

Most of the past issues resolving devuan.org appear to be caused by ISPs.

Not sure if there are "political" reasons for the failures, or if
the registrar has anything to do with it.

If you wait a while (maybe days), it will start working again.

If you're in a hurry, try going somewhere else and trying to connect.

When I am in Florida, I can connect to devuan.org 99% of the time, but
while at my grandparents' house in Georgia, there is _always_ a
"temporary error". There is no firewall or anything up there, it's just
the difference between AOL (no connection) and AT&T (monetary black hole).

I might be biased though: AOL is basically the antichrist of the
internet, and AT&T has fallen far since Unix.



I've been experiencing some strangeness with this. It seems to work now. 
Though for a day I had switched to Google's nameservers to get on with 
things.


Does anyone know if there were any DNS changes made recently and some 
slow to update DNS caches would have affected me? If no changes were 
made recently, I see no reason why I would have experienced this.


I was thinking how I would maybe need to make my own local mirrors in 
case of this kind of trouble in the future.


Cheers,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] [Kali Linux 0003165]: Find a way to disable most services by default with systemd

[Simon Walter]

On 07/12/2016 08:45 PM, vmlinux wrote:

There was a time when this sort of nonsense was heavily frowned upon. i suspect 
what has happened is that the user base has changed. it's difficult to learn 
the ropes from the cli so GUI allows the novice to do things quickly because 
the only skill needed is point-and-grunt. many people using Linux now are not 
the same type of people in your local LUG 10 years ago and i think this is 
being reflected in the way we see disastrous being developed now.
devuan seems to be the one of the few distributions making any sense anymore.

don't need Kali. most network problems can be resolved with the basics anyway: 
arping,  arp, tcpdump, nslookup, traceroute, netcat, and iptraf. thankfully all 
standard tools.



Problems, yes sure. What about attacking your network AKA pen testing. 
Have you heard of the metasploit framework? I need to learn more about 
that and some of the other automation tools. It's nice to be able to 
throw a bunch of attacks at your network before others do. That seems to 
be the purpose of Kali and it's predecessors. I don't know if I would 
call it a troubleshooting tool. It's possible to troubleshoot network 
problems with Windows.


Though I agree that the point and "grunt" style is a bit useless. Which 
is why I wondered why Kali had a full blown GNOME. What about XFCE or 
openbox? Something minimal please.

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Re: [DNG] Why Debian 8 Pinning is (or isn't) pointless

[Simon Walter]

On 07/14/2016 05:56 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting KatolaZ (kato...@freaknet.org):


I personally don't see the reason for such a reaction on your side
Rick (BTW, welcome here :)), but I am sure I am missing something. I
personally believe that all the work to avoid and contain systemd and
other nonsense is valuable, independently of where it comes from :)


I cannot imagine why you would ever think I don't agree!

I can only guess that you didn't bother to attentively read what I said
-- because I think Devuan's work is valuable and have already said so on
my OpenRC conversion page, on the referenced SVLUG mailing list thread,
and on this mailing list.

When you try to pick a fight with someone who admires what you're doing,
just because he doesn't agree with you on every single particular, and
_particularly_ when you attribute to him views he doesn't hold and whose
opposite he just expressed, maybe you should relax a bit and consider
switching to decaf.  ;->


Hi Rick,

I want to give a little bit of constructive criticism.

"A fool is known by a multitude of words." That is not to say you are 
fool. I don't know you. However, everyone is pretty busy. So if you want 
to express something accurately, minimize verbiage and refrain from 
using argumentum ad hominem. I read some of your conversation with Steve 
on SVLUG. Because it was so long, I didn't read everything. However, 
from what I did read, to me it you sounded like you had an axe to grind.


That might not the case.

It seems that you are asking: "What is the reason for Devuan when the 
same thing can be accomplished in a simpler way?" I will try to answer 
that from my experience.


I personally really appreciate what the people working on Devuan are 
doing - even if I can do it exactly the same way with pinning.


I have built my own systems and later was a Gentoo fan. I needed some 
cutting edge features that even Debian testing did not have. Debian was 
refined and tried and proven. It was wonderful for servers along with 
BSD. Do you remember those days? I respected their conservatism.


It seems to me Debian leaders want Debian to be the new shinny. This is 
even before systemd existed. The leaders at Debian could have continued 
to be leaders. Instead they became followers.


That is why I am thankful for Devuan and it's community.

By talking so much about this and that and wasting people's time, I 
winder if you have an agenda to push.


So here is a disclaimer for you:

Perhaps something like systemd is a great idea for certain users on 
mobile devices, etc. However, the way it's being created is questionable.


I am not looking for an answer to this email. I hope it helps you 
understand one of possibly many (ex)Debian users.


Kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] C Obfuscated code: a virtue or a vice?

[Simon Walter]

On 07/15/2016 02:23 PM, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Hi,


The International Obfuscated C Code Contest, IOCCC was started by the
"masters" and "pioneers" in C. This is a "competition" for those who
take pride in compressing code to the point of making it practically
unreadable.

The following is a program submitted to IOCCC:
http://www.ioccc.org/2015/dogon/prog.c


At first, I was tempted to follow the path of writing obfuscated code,
but thinking about it, with todays huge computers, it simple doesn't
make sense to write difficult to read code. In the past there was an
advantage of writing such code that saved on code size as RAM size was
only a few kilobytes but definitely not today.

Here on this mailing list, I am noticing that being committed to write
legible code, is interpreted as an inherent lack of coding ability. In
my case, irrespective of the attacks by some, and the fact that when I
submitted functional code nobody commented about it, indicates that
those who are attacking are only interested in making disguised
personal attacks to dissuade me from helping in the project. The
answer to these people is: I will continue to move on irrespective of
your attacks.



IIRC, the person on this list who mentioned IOCCC said that it was a bad 
idea if you were a professional programmer. Did you miss that part?


I think you have a persecution/victim complex and a lack of attention to 
detail.


You should be thankful for the people on this list willing to help you 
and guide you. Read "How to Become a Hacker." It might help you 
understand the world you are interacting with. Why are you even posting 
C code here. Go post your code on a site dedicated to C. I think you 
will have much more fun and progress.


Peace,

Simon
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[DNG] debmon.org

[Simon Walter]

Has anyone had experience with the packages on debmon.org? I want to use 
icingaweb2. Any tips or gotchas with their repos? It looks like 
icingaweb2 is also in sid. Not sure which is more recent. icinga-web (1) 
is just a "web app". So I may just download it from icinga's web site.


Simon

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[DNG] Help needed debugging MySQL install

[Simon Walter]

Hi everyone,

I am having trouble installing mysql-server inside a container (lxc). I 
have the same problem with a fresh Jessie install. so it doesn't seem 
specific to Devuan.


Basic description of problem:
After unpacking and setting up the packages, mysql is stopped and the 
root use password is to be set. However, the management database does 
not exist and/or cannot be created. There are no files in 
/var/lib/mysql/mysql and it is owned by root. On an successful install 
(not in a container) that dir is owned by mysql.


The log files show:
160716 22:32:16 [Note] Plugin 'FEDERATED' is disabled.
160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: The InnoDB memory heap is disabled
160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: Mutexes and rw_locks use GCC atomic builtins
160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: Compressed tables use zlib 1.2.8
160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: Using Linux native AIO
160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: Initializing buffer pool, size = 128.0M
160716 22:32:16 InnoDB: Completed initialization of buffer pool
InnoDB: The first specified data file ./ibdata1 did not exist:
InnoDB: a new database to be created!
160716 22:32:16  InnoDB: Setting file ./ibdata1 size to 10 MB
InnoDB: Database physically writes the file full: wait...
160716 22:32:17  InnoDB: Log file ./ib_logfile0 did not exist: new to be 
created

InnoDB: Setting log file ./ib_logfile0 size to 5 MB
InnoDB: Database physically writes the file full: wait...
160716 22:32:17  InnoDB: Log file ./ib_logfile1 did not exist: new to be 
created

InnoDB: Setting log file ./ib_logfile1 size to 5 MB
InnoDB: Database physically writes the file full: wait...
InnoDB: Doublewrite buffer not found: creating new
InnoDB: Doublewrite buffer created
InnoDB: 127 rollback segment(s) active.
InnoDB: Creating foreign key constraint system tables
InnoDB: Foreign key constraint system tables created
160716 22:32:17  InnoDB: Waiting for the background threads to start
160716 22:32:18 InnoDB: 5.5.49 started; log sequence number 0
ERROR: 1146  Table 'mysql.user' doesn't exist
160716 22:32:18 [ERROR] Aborting

160716 22:32:18  InnoDB: Starting shutdown...
160716 22:32:19  InnoDB: Shutdown completed; log sequence number 1595675
160716 22:32:19 [Note] /usr/sbin/mysqld: Shutdown complete

160716 22:38:41 mysqld_safe Starting mysqld daemon with databases from 
/var/lib/mysql
160716 22:38:41 [Warning] Using unique option prefix key_buffer instead 
of key_buffer_size is deprecated and will be removed in a future 
release. Please use the full name instead.
160716 22:38:41 [Note] /usr/sbin/mysqld (mysqld 5.5.49-0+deb8u1) 
starting as process 1156 ...
160716 22:38:41 [Warning] Using unique option prefix myisam-recover 
instead of myisam-recover-options is deprecated and will be removed in a 
future release. Please use the full name instead.

160716 22:38:41 [Note] Plugin 'FEDERATED' is disabled.
/usr/sbin/mysqld: Table 'mysql.plugin' doesn't exist
160716 22:38:41 [ERROR] Can't open the mysql.plugin table. Please run 
mysql_upgrade to create it.

160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: The InnoDB memory heap is disabled
160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: Mutexes and rw_locks use GCC atomic builtins
160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: Compressed tables use zlib 1.2.8
160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: Using Linux native AIO
160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: Initializing buffer pool, size = 128.0M
160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: Completed initialization of buffer pool
160716 22:38:41 InnoDB: highest supported file format is Barracuda.
160716 22:38:41  InnoDB: Waiting for the background threads to start
160716 22:38:42 InnoDB: 5.5.49 started; log sequence number 1595675
160716 22:38:42 [Note] Server hostname (bind-address): '127.0.0.1'; 
port: 3306

160716 22:38:42 [Note]   - '127.0.0.1' resolves to '127.0.0.1';
160716 22:38:42 [Note] Server socket created on IP: '127.0.0.1'.
160716 22:38:42 [ERROR] Fatal error: Can't open and lock privilege 
tables: Table 'mysql.host' doesn't exist
160716 22:38:42 mysqld_safe mysqld from pid file 
/var/run/mysqld/mysqld.pid ended


On a successful install, there are no errors about missing tables:
160716 16:27:53 [Note] Plugin 'FEDERATED' is disabled.
160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: The InnoDB memory heap is disabled
160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Mutexes and rw_locks use GCC atomic builtins
160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Compressed tables use zlib 1.2.8
160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Using Linux native AIO
160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Initializing buffer pool, size = 128.0M
160716 16:27:53 InnoDB: Completed initialization of buffer pool
InnoDB: The first specified data file ./ibdata1 did not exist:
InnoDB: a new database to be created!
160716 16:27:53  InnoDB: Setting file ./ibdata1 size to 10 MB
InnoDB: Database physically writes the file full: wait...
160716 16:27:53  InnoDB: Log file ./ib_logfile0 did not exist: new to be 
created

InnoDB: Setting log file ./ib_logfile0 size to 5 MB
InnoDB: Database physically writes the file full: wait...
160716 16:27:53  InnoDB: Log file ./ib_logfile1 did not exist: new to be 
created

InnoDB: Setting log file ./ib_logfile1 size to 5 MB
InnoDB: Database physically write

Re: [DNG] Help needed debugging MySQL install

[Simon Walter]

On 07/17/2016 01:01 PM, Simon Walter wrote:

Hi everyone,

I am having trouble installing mysql-server inside a container (lxc). I
have the same problem with a fresh Jessie install. so it doesn't seem
specific to Devuan.

Basic description of problem:
After unpacking and setting up the packages, mysql is stopped and the
root use password is to be set. However, the management database does
not exist and/or cannot be created. There are no files in
/var/lib/mysql/mysql and it is owned by root. On an successful install
(not in a container) that dir is owned by mysql.


More info:
mysql_install_db does not seem to be running from the postinst script. 
When I run this manually, it succeeds. I think it is failing to run 
because I have no syslog.


ERR_LOGGER="logger -p daemon.err -t mysqld_safe -i"
bash /usr/bin/mysql_install_db --user mysql --rpm 2>&1 | $ERR_LOGGER

I find it strange, because logger does not fail even if there is no 
syslog daemon.


I was wondering why the command is prefixed with "bash". That doesn't 
seem to work

test.sh:
#!/bin/bash
bash /bin/date

#./test.sh
/bin/date: /bin/date: cannot execute binary file

The strange thing is it works when there is a syslog daemon installed.

Any ideas?

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Help needed debugging MySQL install

[Simon Walter]

On 07/18/2016 08:15 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting aitor_czr (aitor_...@gnuinos.org):


> The substitute for MySQL is MariaDB :)

What you said.  ;->  MariaDB is a 100% compatible workalike
(binary drop-in replacement).
https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/


Same installation bug(?) with mariadb.

bash /usr/bin/mysql_install_db --rpm --user=mysql --disable-log-bin 2>&1 
| $ERR_LOGGER


I thought it would be the case. As it is drop-in replacemen, there is 
not really any reason to re-write the package scripts. So I guess I 
should report this to two package maintainers.


Thanks for reminding me of mariadb.

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Larcenous mail threads.

[Simon Walter]

On 07/18/2016 02:11 AM, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 15/07/2016 06:43, Edward Bartolo a écrit :

Yes, I refrain from writing C obfuscated code.


+1

  It doesn't make sense
with today's powerful computers not to write readable code, that is
why I make an effort to write readable code.

I would rather give credit to high quality compilers than powerful
computers.



Yup, this is where the credit belongs. Though, it could be said that 
large screens are powerful.


Edward, you need to read a 101 computing book or a take primer in CS - 
and have some patience. It takes time to learn something. Don't expect 
so much from yourself. Put down those programming tools until you 
understand how a computer works. It will make your life easier. How do 
you know if you know how a computer works? Can you explain how a 
computer works to a child or perhaps a rubber duck? We teach what we 
need to learn. Being intentional is what counts.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] Inform DNG users their email has been moved.

[Simon Walter]

On 07/18/2016 01:53 AM, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Hi,

I would like to suggest DNG mail moderators/admins to consider
informing mail senders that their mail has been moved. Other email
providers like Google always duly informs its users when their email
fails to reach its destination and this notwithstanding the huge
number of gmail users.


...

I think you might want to explain what has happened a bit more. What do 
you mean by "their mail has been moved"?


Do you know how email works? Do you know how mailing lists work? Your 
email reached it's destination: dng@lists.dyne.org


You obviously have not read "how to be a hacker". You are pretty 
fortunate to have a connection to the Internet. You are pretty fortunate 
the Internet even exists. The only thing I am left to wonder is if you 
are a troll. Though, again, I should probably apply Hanlon's razor.


You are whinny and ungrateful. If you are to make friends, you must show 
yourself friendly.


Simon
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Re: [DNG] Help needed debugging MySQL install

[Simon Walter]

Thank you, Matt. I appreciate the feedback. I've filed a couple bugs 
against mysql-server and mariadb-server. Either they should depend on 
some syslog or they should their installation scripts should be written 
to detect a logger and function accordingly.


Hopefully someone will get a move on. If not, I've got gafer tape in 
place. Actually it's probably more like chewing gum...!


Cheers,

Simon

On 07/18/2016 08:11 PM, Matthew Melton wrote:

Replying to myself:

http://docs.slackware.com/howtos:databases:install_mariadb_on_slackware

Is probably the order I had to do things. Note the changing of permissions.

Whether this has any relevance to your issue or not I don't know.

I'll be under my rock if you wish to ignore me.

Matt


Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Jul 2016, at 11:57, Matthew Melton mailto:m...@mjmworks.co.uk>> wrote:



This sounds very familiar. Though I think I was using Slackware
installing from slack builds. My hand written notes say something
about mysql_install_db --user=...
Left the /var/lib/mysql/ with the wrong permissions.
Or something.
And something to do with running mysql_secure_installation instead.

Maybe that might help.

It's been a while. And due to the evidence of my handwriting I'm
afraid I appear to have been terribly, terribly, drunk.

Cheers

Matt

Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Jul 2016, at 01:36, Simon Walter mailto:si...@gikaku.com>> wrote:


On 07/18/2016 08:15 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting aitor_czr (aitor_...@gnuinos.org
<mailto:aitor_...@gnuinos.org>):


> The substitute for MySQL is MariaDB :)

What you said.  ;->  MariaDB is a 100% compatible workalike
(binary drop-in replacement).
https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/


Same installation bug(?) with mariadb.

bash /usr/bin/mysql_install_db --rpm --user=mysql --disable-log-bin
2>&1 | $ERR_LOGGER

I thought it would be the case. As it is drop-in replacemen, there is
not really any reason to re-write the package scripts. So I guess I
should report this to two package maintainers.

Thanks for reminding me of mariadb.

Simon
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Sent from my iPhone

On 18 Jul 2016, at 01:36, Simon Walter mailto:si...@gikaku.com>> wrote:


On 07/18/2016 08:15 AM, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting aitor_czr (aitor_...@gnuinos.org
<mailto:aitor_...@gnuinos.org>):


> The substitute for MySQL is MariaDB :)

What you said.  ;->  MariaDB is a 100% compatible workalike
(binary drop-in replacement).
https://mariadb.com/kb/en/mariadb/mariadb-vs-mysql-compatibility/


Same installation bug(?) with mariadb.

bash /usr/bin/mysql_install_db --rpm --user=mysql --disable-log-bin
2>&1 | $ERR_LOGGER

I thought it would be the case. As it is drop-in replacemen, there is
not really any reason to re-write the package scripts. So I guess I
should report this to two package maintainers.

Thanks for reminding me of mariadb.

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Larcenous mail threads.

[Simon Walter]

On 07/18/2016 11:06 PM, Hendrik Boom wrote:

On Mon, Jul 18, 2016 at 08:16:03AM +0200, Edward Bartolo wrote:

Hi,

Simon Walker wrote:




<<
Can you explain how a computer works to a child or perhaps a rubber duck?



You place a child at the same level as a rubber duck?! A child can
understand provided any concepts used are within his/her mental age.


So can a rubber duck understand any concepts within its mental age.
But none are.  That's the difference.



I am distinguishing between the two. Obviously Edwardo does not 
understand English that well. Maybe I should thrown an "even" in there. 
However, the rubber duck is important. It's not a term I came up with, 
as I am sure many of you know. Though I would like propose a new term: 
shit programming. It happens on the toilet. AKA "the aha moment".


Today I did no shit programming. It was just methodical and cyclic - 
incremental if you will.


Peace,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Simon Walter]

On 07/19/2016 10:38 AM, Brad Campbell wrote:

On 19/07/16 00:37, Steve Litt wrote:

SPECIAL USERNAMES
For instance, to reboot the computer from the login screen, type in the
username "reboot" (without the quotes), then when asked for the
password put the root password, and it reboots.

...


This is one I find interesting. I've never used an operating system
where it was required to know root credentials to halt or reboot the
machine from the login screen. Certainly if the machine is logged in but
locked, unlocking is required first but on any of the other OS I use I
can simply shutdown or reboot unauthenticated

...

So all that rambling comes back to "why do I need to know my root
password to halt or reboot the machine from the login screen?"


Well, that question is probably best answered by the SLiM developers.

However, AFAICT the SLiM login manager is no longer maintained. If 
Devuan is using it as a default, I suggest someone maintain it and make 
these changes or we use a different login manager.


If someone here is maintaining, maybe we want to let the world know. 
Other OSes might need it.


I am pretty sure it's trivial to install a different login manager if 
SLiM is not to your liking. Or has systemd crept into the rest of them?


Simon
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Simon Walter]

On 07/19/2016 11:53 AM, Adam Borowski wrote:
...

All that talk about multiseat being important or even relevant today is IMO 
bullshit.

...

Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to mind. 
There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you.

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[DNG] Flexible software (Was: F1 and special usernames on the login screen)

[Simon Walter]

On 07/19/2016 04:17 PM, Arnt Gulbrandsen wrote:
> Simon Walter writes:
>> Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to mind.
>> There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you.
>
> Quite likely he might, he's not stupid after all. And I agree too:
> Multiseat is unimportant, barely significant. The price of computers has
> dropped enough that the ones with UIs are now personal devices. The
> architecture of backends has changed such that UIDs aren't used for
> customer IDs.
>
> A few exceptions remain, increasingly rare. I'm sure there are people
> who have used that blue icon near the top right corner of the android
> lock screen.

Disclaiemr:
I don't mind being schooled and I hope I don't offend anyone.

I can remember being told be many seasoned engineers and reading in 
several books:

One should not assume how their software will be used.

"Lehman states that the gap between a system and its operational domain 
is bridged by assumptions, explicit and implicit [Lehman 00]."


"Usually these assumptions are not documented and often they are not 
validated by the people with the knowledge to verify their 
appropriateness. Additionally, the real-world domain and the software 
itself are always changing. While the initial assumption set was valid, 
individual assumptions will, as time goes on, become invalid with 
unpredictable results or, at best, lead to operation that is not totally 
satisfactory [Parnas 94]."

http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a443152.pdf

It should be obvious to the seasoned developer that s/he cannot know all 
the use cases. Therefore by limiting the purpose of their software (do 
one thing) and not making any assumptions about how it will be used (do 
that one thing well) s/he can make useful software.


I am taking task with the comments about how mulitseat is not important 
because it displays a disregard for this wisdom.


One can program a login manager that is only suited for single user 
machines. One can program a login manager that allows shutdown and 
restart without a password. I think that those already exist. I am not 
defending the choice of SLiM.


What I am trying to express is that a narrow minded attitude towards use 
cases will make your software brittle.


Since this is Devuan (something about veteran *unix* admins, and coming 
from Debian - the *universal* OS), I would not have expected Devuan's 
fans and users to be so close minded.


I have seen so many use cases for software that I couldn't imagine had I 
not seen them first hand by working in various industries. It has 
humbled me.


If individual users are Devuan's main focus, it will fail to attract a 
very important and often neglected segment of computer users - business 
and industry. Not selling out to business and industry is just as 
important. That will also make one's creations brittle.


Kind regards,

Simon
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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Simon Walter]

On 07/19/2016 05:29 PM, Rick Moen wrote:

Quoting Arnt Gulbrandsen (a...@gulbrandsen.priv.no):

Simon Walter writes:


Oh the insolence. Amazing. "You're holding it wrong" comes to
mind. There is this guy named Lennart who might agree with you.


Quite likely he might, he's not stupid after all.  And I agree too:
Multiseat is unimportant, barely significant.  The price of computers
has dropped enough that the ones with UIs are now personal devices.


Might be obvious, but just mentioning:  'Multiseat' (GNOME/system
implementation of which proximately caused the systemd-logind
omnishambles of several years ago) needs to be distinguished from
multiuser.

Unix has been inherently, by design, _multiuser_ since its beginning, and
I for one would be quite sad if my Linux servers were suddenly 'personal
devices':  E.g., a Web / SMTPd / ftpd / sshd / rsyncd / NTPd server like
the one in my garage suddenly failing to serve remote users would be a
misfortune.

I have to confess that I personally didn't understand how multiseat
differs from multiuser on Linux until quite recently.  Pro bono publico:
It concerns simultaneous _local_ users.


Does that include serial devices? I remember working at a factory where 
the computer controlled saws, conveyor belts, and other machines in each 
production line would communicate via serial interfaces with a server. 
IIRC, they were using SunOS. Of course a very unique use case that has 
nothing to do with normal "users" and "desktops".


My point was simply that if Devaun is to be useful to many people, we 
shouldn't be closed minded about the use cases. I am not arguing that we 
strive to include multiseat functionality or any specific login manager 
or text editor or whatnot. Simply that we should not exclude anything 
that is easily included just because we don't see a use case for it.


I am preaching to choir - I am pretty sure.

Simon
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Re: [DNG] Flexible software (Was: F1 and special usernames on the login screen)

[Simon Walter]

On 07/20/2016 05:19 AM, Tomasz Torcz wrote:

On Tue, Jul 19, 2016 at 09:57:41PM +0200, Jaromil wrote:

On Tue, 19 Jul 2016, Simon Walter wrote:


Since this is Devuan (something about veteran *unix* admins, and
coming from Debian - the *universal* OS), I would not have expected
Devuan's fans and users to be so close minded.


I think anyone here should stop taking conversations in DNG as
representative of Devuan. Please note that even those who denigrated
our efforts, names the shitdevuansays hooligans, have done so. I know
the gmane title for the list is misleading (this is not the "devuan
development" list), yet we have not choosen that title for it nor have
never declared this to be a place representative of devuan.

Devuan has official channels for communication and people who are
appointed to such a communication. As one of them let me say that,
since many here read and run code, I recommend taking the actual
software as the best means of communicating what Devuan is about.


  Could you point us to those proper Devuan channels?  Some of us
are genuinely interested in challenges when developing the distribution,
and getting to know the ways Devuan developers solved those challenges.
  Signal to noise ratio is very low here, for each one email with solid
technicalities there are at least dozen useless emails.  I would
happily leave dng if I could read archives of real development list.



Are these correct?
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devuan-announce
https://mailinglists.dyne.org/cgi-bin/mailman/listinfo/devuan-discuss

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Re: [DNG] F1 and special usernames on the login screen

[Simon Walter]

On 07/22/2016 01:56 PM, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 21/07/2016 14:50, Arnt Gulbrandsen a écrit :

Didier Kryn writes:

I don't reply to your questions since Florian did :-) but I,
myself, have two questions:

- Still don't know what  key you are talking of; never
seen that on a keyboard.

- What do you mean by "reisuo" ?


You learn something new every day. Today it's sysrq and linux:
https://www.kernel.org/doc/Documentation/sysrq.txt


Tried it yesterday evening on my HP-Latitude laptop running
Debian-Wheezy. Tried both with  and .
None did the trick. With reisuo I only succeeded
to locked tty1 :-(

BTW my laptop has an English keyboard because it is impossible in
Europe to buy one with a US keyboard.



I hope I am not stating the obvious. Did you press the Fn key? Notebook 
computers have an Fn key to access the smaller label. For example, 
Apples have set at the Fn keys to be volume, screen brightness, etc. You 
need to press Fn + F10 to get F10, since F10 is written in the smaller 
font. Most sensible manufactures haven't done that. However, the some 
keys are doubled up and usually if you need to press Fn, it will be in 
the same font/color as the Fn key.


I suspect you wanted to press Fn + Del + whatever other keys you need. 
(Sorry wasn't following the conversation in detail).


Hope that helps,

Simon
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[DNG] openvpn systemd

[Simon Walter]

It's nothing serious. I just noticed this and though to myself, "Why all 
the trouble? What a bother!"


/etc/default/openvpn:
# This is the configuration file for /etc/init.d/openvpn

#
# Start only these VPNs automatically via init script.
# Allowed values are "all", "none" or space separated list of
# names of the VPNs. If empty, "all" is assumed.
# The VPN name refers to the VPN configutation file name.
# i.e. "home" would be /etc/openvpn/home.conf
#
# If you're running systemd, changing this variable will
# require running "systemctl daemon-reload" followed by
# a restart of the openvpn service (if you removed entries
# you may have to stop those manually)
#
#AUTOSTART="all"
#AUTOSTART="none"
#AUTOSTART="home office"
#
# WARNING: If you're running systemd the rest of the
# options in this file are ignored.
#
# Refresh interval (in seconds) of default status files
# located in /var/run/openvpn.$NAME.status
# Defaults to 10, 0 disables status file generation
#
#STATUSREFRESH=10
#STATUSREFRESH=0
# Optional arguments to openvpn's command line
OPTARGS=""
#
# If you need openvpn running after sendsigs, i.e.
# to let umountnfs work over the vpn, set OMIT_SENDSIGS
# to 1 and include umountnfs as Required-Stop: in openvpn's
# init.d script (remember to run insserv after that)
#
OMIT_SENDSIGS=0
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Re: [DNG] Wirth's law

[Simon Walter]

On 07/23/2016 05:42 PM, Didier Kryn wrote:

Le 22/07/2016 18:21, Brian Nash a écrit :

For example, when I discovered multithreading, all my programs used it
in some way, even when it was unnecessary.


I sometimes use multithreading, but never mutexes. Mutex can be harmless
if there's only one. Otherwise better use select()/poll() or you'll
waste time or even dead-lock. It's amazing how the old select() paradigm
is so much better than the modern mutex. I see mutex as an invention to
relieve the programmer from thinking.


Really? I must be pretty stupid because I have think extra hard when 
using mutexes... :(

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