Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
Judith raises a good point which seems to be backed up by studies of increases in female authorship with double blind review processes. Although you might still do better in the review process if you use initials for publications, I am so happy that so many do not/have not. When I was a student it was so important to see that some of the great papers I was reading were written by women. Amy On 20 February 2013 15:05, Judith S. Weis jw...@andromeda.rutgers.eduwrote: I remember getting advice back in the '70s and '80s that it would be a good idea to publish using only your initials, thus preventing bias. There had been a couple of studies in which the identical manuscript was submitted with a female name or with initials, and guess which one got more favorable reviews... I hoped that this would have been over by now as there are so many more women in the field (it looks like there are more female grad students in ecology than male), and most of the dinosaurs who were influential back then are retired etc. Since this gender topic doesn't seem to die down, I feel I have to comment as well. Without necessarily approving the original comment, I feel there is a huge problem in science regarding a gender bias. Herehttp://www.eigenfactor.org/gender/ are some stats on the gender composition of publications in science, based on jstor. While comments of a generalizing nature can come across as insulting or offensive to some, I think that the responses so far have had a little bit too much of a we can't talk about this air about them. When less than 20% of first authors are females, I would argue the problem is too big to allow for such sensitivities. I like diversity, and I think being open to it enables the scientific community as a whole to get more talent involved. But what if there are real differences between what kinds of expertise women and men bring to the table? I'm sure the original poster wasn't just making these examples up in order to be sexist. Shouldn't we be willing to talk about these differences in order to see what can be done about them? If we stick to this attitude where everything that's even touching on differences between men and women is discarded as sexist, I don't think we have very good chances of fixing this huge problem. /Paul Wennekes On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Hanberry, Brice B. hanber...@missouri.edu wrote: Or is it (sexist)? See: Bias Is Hurting Women in Science, Panel Reports http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/science/19women.html?_r=0 Five Years After an Incendiary Remark, Signs That Harvard Is More Welcoming to Women http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/harvard-2/ -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Shevtsov Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 1:36 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues Let's not forget that the original comment that triggered this whole discussion was made by a woman! I don't think it was intended to be sexist. It's not sexist to say, In my experience, women tend to do X and would be better off doing Y. It may be accurate or inaccurate, but it's not sexist. Jane Shevtsov On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.netwrote: Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
Since this gender topic doesn't seem to die down, I feel I have to comment as well. Without necessarily approving the original comment, I feel there is a huge problem in science regarding a gender bias. Herehttp://www.eigenfactor.org/gender/ are some stats on the gender composition of publications in science, based on jstor. While comments of a generalizing nature can come across as insulting or offensive to some, I think that the responses so far have had a little bit too much of a we can't talk about this air about them. When less than 20% of first authors are females, I would argue the problem is too big to allow for such sensitivities. I like diversity, and I think being open to it enables the scientific community as a whole to get more talent involved. But what if there are real differences between what kinds of expertise women and men bring to the table? I'm sure the original poster wasn't just making these examples up in order to be sexist. Shouldn't we be willing to talk about these differences in order to see what can be done about them? If we stick to this attitude where everything that's even touching on differences between men and women is discarded as sexist, I don't think we have very good chances of fixing this huge problem. /Paul Wennekes On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Hanberry, Brice B. hanber...@missouri.edu wrote: Or is it (sexist)? See: Bias Is Hurting Women in Science, Panel Reports http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/science/19women.html?_r=0 Five Years After an Incendiary Remark, Signs That Harvard Is More Welcoming to Women http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/harvard-2/ -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Shevtsov Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 1:36 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues Let's not forget that the original comment that triggered this whole discussion was made by a woman! I don't think it was intended to be sexist. It's not sexist to say, In my experience, women tend to do X and would be better off doing Y. It may be accurate or inaccurate, but it's not sexist. Jane Shevtsov On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.netwrote: Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student#x2019;s Guide to Neces sary Skills for Landing a Job Hi Yvette, Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely misguided and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you can ignore the silly responses of particular ECO-LOGGERS (some of which have a track record of this behavior) by filtering your emails. Unfortunately your email has added fuel to a series of ECOLOG posts that have very little to do with the original premise of the Blickley et al. (2012). Let's all move on now. Cheers, Julian --- Julian D. Olden Freshwater Ecology Conservation Lab School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195 e: mailto:ol...@uw.edu ol...@uw.edu, t: (206) 616-3112 tel:%28206
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
I remember getting advice back in the '70s and '80s that it would be a good idea to publish using only your initials, thus preventing bias. There had been a couple of studies in which the identical manuscript was submitted with a female name or with initials, and guess which one got more favorable reviews... I hoped that this would have been over by now as there are so many more women in the field (it looks like there are more female grad students in ecology than male), and most of the dinosaurs who were influential back then are retired etc. Since this gender topic doesn't seem to die down, I feel I have to comment as well. Without necessarily approving the original comment, I feel there is a huge problem in science regarding a gender bias. Herehttp://www.eigenfactor.org/gender/ are some stats on the gender composition of publications in science, based on jstor. While comments of a generalizing nature can come across as insulting or offensive to some, I think that the responses so far have had a little bit too much of a we can't talk about this air about them. When less than 20% of first authors are females, I would argue the problem is too big to allow for such sensitivities. I like diversity, and I think being open to it enables the scientific community as a whole to get more talent involved. But what if there are real differences between what kinds of expertise women and men bring to the table? I'm sure the original poster wasn't just making these examples up in order to be sexist. Shouldn't we be willing to talk about these differences in order to see what can be done about them? If we stick to this attitude where everything that's even touching on differences between men and women is discarded as sexist, I don't think we have very good chances of fixing this huge problem. /Paul Wennekes On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 10:15 PM, Hanberry, Brice B. hanber...@missouri.edu wrote: Or is it (sexist)? See: Bias Is Hurting Women in Science, Panel Reports http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/science/19women.html?_r=0 Five Years After an Incendiary Remark, Signs That Harvard Is More Welcoming to Women http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/harvard-2/ -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Shevtsov Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 1:36 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues Let's not forget that the original comment that triggered this whole discussion was made by a woman! I don't think it was intended to be sexist. It's not sexist to say, In my experience, women tend to do X and would be better off doing Y. It may be accurate or inaccurate, but it's not sexist. Jane Shevtsov On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.netwrote: Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student#x2019;s Guide to Neces sary Skills for Landing a Job Hi Yvette, Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely misguided and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you can ignore
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
As an unemployed individual with a Masters degree and 4.5 years of daily work experience using ArcGIS (as well as numerous other types of experience both in the field and office including state and federal jobs), I am still having an extraordinarily difficult time finding a job. Is there any advice other than ArcGIS that sets someone apart? It seems like it really comes down to who you know and networking your way into a job. However, I have tried the whole getting contacts for help to no avail too so I'm clueless on what else to do. I know there are tons of other people like myself having difficulty so I know I would appreciate getting back on subject as well for ideas on how we can get jobs. Thanks for input. Amberly Moon On Feb 18, 2013, at 8:58 PM, Silvia Secchi ssec...@siu.edu wrote: Exactly! We are now all feeding the troll. Let's talk about best strategies to be successful. I taught myself GIS after getting my PhD (which is in economics btw) and was very willing to collaborate, rip my writing to shreds and re-submit to end up with grant proposals that would be funded (note that English is not my native language). I did have a great boss who let me be a co-PI while I was a staff scientist at a research center, and that sense of responsibilities and rewards being aligned did help. It also helped that my boss was a woman who had children so when I had children myself I did not feel shunned. But the point is that those GIS and grant writing skills got me my tenure track job, because they gave me an edge over the next candidate. For people working in ecology, it is true that R has some terrific advantages, but if you work with people in geography (as I do), many of them use ArgGIS, so that is also a consideration... Silvia On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Miguel Cañedo mcanedo@gmail.com wrote: Seems to me that you completely misunderstood Dr. Olden's e-mail, who (to my understanding) just tried to help everyone to reject sexist comments like the one originally posted. I am not saying that this kind of comments should not be publicly disapproved, and probably just moving them into the spam folder is not the best solution, but I really don't see why Dr. Olden should take the blame for it when he was just trying to help. Best, Miguel. 2013/2/18 Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.net Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student#x2019;s Guide to Neces sary Skills for Landing a Job Hi Yvette, Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely misguided and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you can ignore the silly responses of particular ECO-LOGGERS (some of which have a track record of this behavior) by filtering your emails. Unfortunately your email has added fuel to a series of ECOLOG posts that have very little to do with the original premise of the Blickley et al. (2012). Let's all move on now. Cheers, Julian --- Julian D. Olden Freshwater Ecology Conservation Lab School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195 e: mailto:ol...@uw.edu ol...@uw.edu, t: (206) 616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 w:
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
Let's not forget that the original comment that triggered this whole discussion was made by a woman! I don't think it was intended to be sexist. It's not sexist to say, In my experience, women tend to do X and would be better off doing Y. It may be accurate or inaccurate, but it's not sexist. Jane Shevtsov On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.netwrote: Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student#x2019;s Guide to Neces sary Skills for Landing a Job Hi Yvette, Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely misguided and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you can ignore the silly responses of particular ECO-LOGGERS (some of which have a track record of this behavior) by filtering your emails. Unfortunately your email has added fuel to a series of ECOLOG posts that have very little to do with the original premise of the Blickley et al. (2012). Let's all move on now. Cheers, Julian --- Julian D. Olden Freshwater Ecology Conservation Lab School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195 e: mailto:ol...@uw.edu ol...@uw.edu, t: (206) 616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 w: http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ skype: goldenolden The face of the river . . . was not a book to be read once and thrown aside, for it had a new story to tell every day. Mark Twain On 2/18/13 7:37 AM, Yvette Dickinson mailto: yvette.dickin...@gmail.com yvette.dickin...@gmail.com wrote: Like Chandreyee Mitra I was surprised by the comment included in Clara's list: 7. ...i am somewhat exercised by your post because, IMO, too many young, especially, female, applicants don't bring much to the table that others don't already know or that cannot be readily duplicated or that is mostly generalist-oriented... This is a sentiment that I have heard before in other venues and find abhorrent. I initially chose not to comment on it here, but I do support Chandreyee's in her comment. However, I am disgusted by the response Chandreyee recieved. To be told to simply use your email filter and not worry your silly little head over such matters is offensive. The concerns Chandreyee raised are legitimate, and should be addressed with the gravity and respect they deserve. I would like to remind all readers of ESA's code of ethics, particularly principle g. Ecologists will not discriminate against others, in the course of their work on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, marital status, creed, religion, race, color, national origin, age, economic status, disability, or organizational affiliation. Yvette Dickinson -- - Jane Shevtsov, Ph.D. Mathematical Biology Curriculum Writer, UCLA co-founder, www.worldbeyondborders.org “Those who say it cannot be done should not interfere with those who are doing it.” --attributed to Robert Heinlein, George Bernard Shaw and others
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
Or is it (sexist)? See: Bias Is Hurting Women in Science, Panel Reports http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/science/19women.html?_r=0 Five Years After an Incendiary Remark, Signs That Harvard Is More Welcoming to Women http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/harvard-2/ -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Shevtsov Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 1:36 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues Let's not forget that the original comment that triggered this whole discussion was made by a woman! I don't think it was intended to be sexist. It's not sexist to say, In my experience, women tend to do X and would be better off doing Y. It may be accurate or inaccurate, but it's not sexist. Jane Shevtsov On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.netwrote: Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student#x2019;s Guide to Neces sary Skills for Landing a Job Hi Yvette, Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely misguided and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you can ignore the silly responses of particular ECO-LOGGERS (some of which have a track record of this behavior) by filtering your emails. Unfortunately your email has added fuel to a series of ECOLOG posts that have very little to do with the original premise of the Blickley et al. (2012). Let's all move on now. Cheers, Julian --- Julian D. Olden Freshwater Ecology Conservation Lab School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195 e: mailto:ol...@uw.edu ol...@uw.edu, t: (206) 616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 w: http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ skype: goldenolden The face of the river . . . was not a book to be read once and thrown aside, for it had a new story to tell every day. Mark Twain On 2/18/13 7:37 AM, Yvette Dickinson mailto: yvette.dickin...@gmail.com yvette.dickin...@gmail.com wrote: Like Chandreyee Mitra I was surprised by the comment included in Clara's list: 7. ...i am somewhat exercised by your post because, IMO, too many young, especially, female, applicants don't bring much to the table that others don't already know or that cannot be readily duplicated or that is mostly generalist-oriented... This is a sentiment that I have heard before in other venues and find abhorrent. I initially chose not to comment on it here, but I do support Chandreyee's in her comment. However, I am disgusted by the response Chandreyee recieved. To be told to simply use your email filter and not worry your silly little head over such matters is offensive. The concerns Chandreyee raised are legitimate, and should be addressed with the gravity and respect they deserve. I would like to remind all readers of ESA's code of ethics, particularly principle g. Ecologists will not discriminate against others, in the course of their work on the basis of gender, sexual
[ECOLOG-L] So what does the science say? ... Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
Science faculty’s subtle gender biases favor male students http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109 science faculty from research-intensive universities rated the application materials of a student—who was randomly assigned either a male or female name—for a laboratory manager position. Faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more competent and hireable than the (identical) female applicant. These participants also selected a higher starting salary and offered more career mentoring to the male applicant. The gender of the faculty participants did not affect responses, such that female and male faculty were equally likely to exhibit bias against the female student. On 2/19/2013 4:15 PM, Hanberry, Brice B. wrote: Or is it (sexist)? See: Bias Is Hurting Women in Science, Panel Reports http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/science/19women.html?_r=0 Five Years After an Incendiary Remark, Signs That Harvard Is More Welcoming to Women http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/harvard-2/ -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Shevtsov Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 1:36 PM To:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues Let's not forget that the original comment that triggered this whole discussion was made by a woman! I don't think it was intended to be sexist. It's not sexist to say, In my experience, women tend to do X and would be better off doing Y. It may be accurate or inaccurate, but it's not sexist. Jane Shevtsov On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.netwrote: Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM To:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student#x2019;s Guide to Neces sary Skills for Landing a Job Hi Yvette, Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely misguided and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you can ignore the silly responses of particular ECO-LOGGERS (some of which have a track record of this behavior) by filtering your emails. Unfortunately your email has added fuel to a series of ECOLOG posts that have very little to do with the original premise of the Blickley et al. (2012). Let's all move on now. Cheers, Julian --- Julian D. Olden Freshwater Ecology Conservation Lab School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195 e:mailto:ol...@uw.edu ol...@uw.edu, t: (206) 616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 w:http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ skype: goldenolden The face of the river . . . was not a book to be read once and thrown aside, for it had a new story to tell every day. Mark Twain On 2/18/13 7:37 AM, Yvette Dickinson mailto: yvette.dickin...@gmail.com yvette.dickin...@gmail.com wrote: Like Chandreyee Mitra I was surprised by the comment included in Clara's list: 7. ...i am somewhat exercised by your post because, IMO, too many young, especially, female, applicants don't bring much to the table that others don't already know or that cannot be readily duplicated or that is mostly generalist-oriented... This is a sentiment that I
Re: [ECOLOG-L] So what does the science say? ... Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
Double-blind peer review, in which neither author nor reviewer identity are revealed, is rarely practised in ecology or evolution journals. However, in 2001, double-blind review was introduced by the journal Behavioral Ecology. Following this policy change, there was a significant increase in female first-authored papers, a pattern not observed in a very similar journal that provides reviewers with author information. No negative effects could be identified, suggesting that double-blind review should be considered by other journals. Budden et al. 2008 Double-blind review favours increased representation of female authors. Trends Ecol Evol 23(1):4-6 On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Denise Burchsted dburchs...@plymouth.eduwrote: Science faculty’s subtle gender biases favor male students http://www.pnas.org/content/**early/2012/09/14/1211286109http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109 science faculty from research-intensive universities rated the application materials of a student—who was randomly assigned either a male or female name—for a laboratory manager position. Faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more competent and hireable than the (identical) female applicant. These participants also selected a higher starting salary and offered more career mentoring to the male applicant. The gender of the faculty participants did not affect responses, such that female and male faculty were equally likely to exhibit bias against the female student. On 2/19/2013 4:15 PM, Hanberry, Brice B. wrote: Or is it (sexist)? See: Bias Is Hurting Women in Science, Panel Reports http://www.nytimes.com/2006/**09/19/science/19women.html?_r=**0http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/science/19women.html?_r=0 Five Years After an Incendiary Remark, Signs That Harvard Is More Welcoming to Women http://thechoice.blogs.**nytimes.com/2010/03/12/**harvard-2/http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/harvard-2/ -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto: ecolo...@listserv.umd.**EDU ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Shevtsov Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 1:36 PM To:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues Let's not forget that the original comment that triggered this whole discussion was made by a woman! I don't think it was intended to be sexist. It's not sexist to say, In my experience, women tend to do X and would be better off doing Y. It may be accurate or inaccurate, but it's not sexist. Jane Shevtsov On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.net**wrote: Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~**leslie.adams/http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~**leslie.adams/http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ecolo...@listserv.umd.**EDU ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM To:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student#x2019;s Guide to Neces sary Skills for Landing a Job Hi Yvette, Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely misguided and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you can ignore the silly responses of particular ECO-LOGGERS (some of which have a track record of this behavior) by filtering your emails. Unfortunately your email has added fuel to a series
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Science Publications Review bias prevention Re: [ECOLOG-L] So what does the science say? ... Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
'Tis friction's brisk, rough rub [along with some grit], that provides the vital spark! --Alexander Reid Martin Effective squeaking is an art. WT Agitate, agitate, AGITATE! --Frederick Douglass' last words (if I remember correctly and my source was correct) - Original Message - From: Cynthia O'Rourke To: Wayne Tyson Cc: ECOLOG-L@listserv.umd.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 8:57 PM Subject: Re: Science Publications Review bias prevention Re: [ECOLOG-L] So what does the science say? ... Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues It's apparently the norm in some fields, notably medicine, and I haven't heard of any ill effects, nor is it easy to imagine what the downsides could be for the general quality of publication. Maybe just not enough squeaky wheels? - Cynthia On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 11:45 PM, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net wrote: O'Rourke and Ecolog: Why isn't this a uniform policy? Bias has no place in science, but it's everywhere. In fact, I think the submittals should be blind as well, to ensure that papers are judged on merit only. Students could be used as screeners, with editors checking all submissions and the reasons for rejection/acceptance by the screeners, to keep costs and the editors' work loads down. Finally, of course, the authors' and reviewers' names should be published, and all comments published. There should be a reasonable amount of back and forth between the reviewers and authors in the blind, so that reviewers and authors can be frank. Nothing polishes like fine grit. WT - Original Message - From: Cynthia O'Rourke c...@umbc.edu To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] So what does the science say? ... Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues Double-blind peer review, in which neither author nor reviewer identity are revealed, is rarely practised in ecology or evolution journals. However, in 2001, double-blind review was introduced by the journal Behavioral Ecology. Following this policy change, there was a significant increase in female first-authored papers, a pattern not observed in a very similar journal that provides reviewers with author information. No negative effects could be identified, suggesting that double-blind review should be considered by other journals. Budden et al. 2008 Double-blind review favours increased representation of female authors. Trends Ecol Evol 23(1):4-6 On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Denise Burchsted dburchs...@plymouth.eduwrote: Science faculty’s subtle gender biases favor male students http://www.pnas.org/content/**early/2012/09/14/1211286109http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109 science faculty from research-intensive universities rated the application materials of a student—who was randomly assigned either a male or female name—for a laboratory manager position. Faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more competent and hireable than the (identical) female applicant. These participants also selected a higher starting salary and offered more career mentoring to the male applicant. The gender of the faculty participants did not affect responses, such that female and male faculty were equally likely to exhibit bias against the female student. On 2/19/2013 4:15 PM, Hanberry, Brice B. wrote: Or is it (sexist)? See: Bias Is Hurting Women in Science, Panel Reports http://www.nytimes.com/2006/**09/19/science/19women.html?_r=**0http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/science/19women.html?_r=0 Five Years After an Incendiary Remark, Signs That Harvard Is More Welcoming to Women http://thechoice.blogs.**nytimes.com/2010/03/12/**harvard-2/http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/harvard-2/ -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto: ecolo...@listserv.umd.**EDU ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Shevtsov Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 1:36 PM To:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues Let's not forget that the original comment that triggered this whole discussion was made by a woman! I don't think it was intended to be sexist. It's not sexist to say, In my experience, women tend to do X and would be better off doing Y. It may be accurate or inaccurate, but it's not sexist. Jane Shevtsov On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.net**wrote: Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Science Publications Review bias prevention Re: [ECOLOG-L] So what does the science say? ... Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
It's apparently the norm in some fields, notably medicine, and I haven't heard of any ill effects, nor is it easy to imagine what the downsides could be for the general quality of publication. Maybe just not enough squeaky wheels? - Cynthia On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 11:45 PM, Wayne Tyson landr...@cox.net wrote: O'Rourke and Ecolog: Why isn't this a uniform policy? Bias has no place in science, but it's everywhere. In fact, I think the submittals should be blind as well, to ensure that papers are judged on merit only. Students could be used as screeners, with editors checking all submissions and the reasons for rejection/acceptance by the screeners, to keep costs and the editors' work loads down. Finally, of course, the authors' and reviewers' names should be published, and all comments published. There should be a reasonable amount of back and forth between the reviewers and authors in the blind, so that reviewers and authors can be frank. Nothing polishes like fine grit. WT - Original Message - From: Cynthia O'Rourke c...@umbc.edu To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 6:50 PM Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] So what does the science say? ... Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues Double-blind peer review, in which neither author nor reviewer identity are revealed, is rarely practised in ecology or evolution journals. However, in 2001, double-blind review was introduced by the journal Behavioral Ecology. Following this policy change, there was a significant increase in female first-authored papers, a pattern not observed in a very similar journal that provides reviewers with author information. No negative effects could be identified, suggesting that double-blind review should be considered by other journals. Budden et al. 2008 Double-blind review favours increased representation of female authors. Trends Ecol Evol 23(1):4-6 On Tue, Feb 19, 2013 at 7:08 PM, Denise Burchsted dburchs...@plymouth.edu**wrote: Science faculty’s subtle gender biases favor male students http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109http://www.pnas.org/content/**early/2012/09/14/1211286109 ht**tp://www.pnas.org/content/**early/2012/09/14/1211286109http://www.pnas.org/content/early/2012/09/14/1211286109 science faculty from research-intensive universities rated the application materials of a student—who was randomly assigned either a male or female name—for a laboratory manager position. Faculty participants rated the male applicant as significantly more competent and hireable than the (identical) female applicant. These participants also selected a higher starting salary and offered more career mentoring to the male applicant. The gender of the faculty participants did not affect responses, such that female and male faculty were equally likely to exhibit bias against the female student. On 2/19/2013 4:15 PM, Hanberry, Brice B. wrote: Or is it (sexist)? See: Bias Is Hurting Women in Science, Panel Reports http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/science/19women.html?_r=0http://www.nytimes.com/2006/**09/19/science/19women.html?_r=**0 http://www.nytimes.com/**2006/09/19/science/19women.**html?_r=0http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/19/science/19women.html?_r=0 Five Years After an Incendiary Remark, Signs That Harvard Is More Welcoming to Women http://thechoice.blogs.**nytim**es.com/2010/03/12/**harvard-2/http://nytimes.com/2010/03/12/**harvard-2/ **http://thechoice.blogs.**nytimes.com/2010/03/12/**harvard-2/http://thechoice.blogs.nytimes.com/2010/03/12/harvard-2/ -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto: ecolo...@listserv.umd.**EDU ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Jane Shevtsov Sent: Tuesday, February 19, 2013 1:36 PM To:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues Let's not forget that the original comment that triggered this whole discussion was made by a woman! I don't think it was intended to be sexist. It's not sexist to say, In my experience, women tend to do X and would be better off doing Y. It may be accurate or inaccurate, but it's not sexist. Jane Shevtsov On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 12:40 PM, Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.netwrote: Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student#x2019;s Guide to Neces sary Skills for Landing a Job Hi Yvette, Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely misguided and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you can ignore the silly responses of particular ECO-LOGGERS (some of which have a track record of this behavior) by filtering your emails. Unfortunately your email has added fuel to a series of ECOLOG posts that have very little to do with the original premise of the Blickley et al. (2012). Let's all move on now. Cheers, Julian --- Julian D. Olden Freshwater Ecology Conservation Lab School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195 e: mailto:ol...@uw.edu ol...@uw.edu, t: (206) 616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 w: http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ skype: goldenolden The face of the river . . . was not a book to be read once and thrown aside, for it had a new story to tell every day. Mark Twain On 2/18/13 7:37 AM, Yvette Dickinson mailto:yvette.dickin...@gmail.com yvette.dickin...@gmail.com wrote: Like Chandreyee Mitra I was surprised by the comment included in Clara's list: 7. ...i am somewhat exercised by your post because, IMO, too many young, especially, female, applicants don't bring much to the table that others don't already know or that cannot be readily duplicated or that is mostly generalist-oriented... This is a sentiment that I have heard before in other venues and find abhorrent. I initially chose not to comment on it here, but I do support Chandreyee's in her comment. However, I am disgusted by the response Chandreyee recieved. To be told to simply use your email filter and not worry your silly little head over such matters is offensive. The concerns Chandreyee raised are legitimate, and should be addressed with the gravity and respect they deserve. I would like to remind all readers of ESA's code of ethics, particularly principle g. Ecologists will not discriminate against others, in the course of their work on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, marital status, creed, religion, race, color, national origin, age, economic status, disability, or organizational affiliation. Yvette Dickinson
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
Seems to me that you completely misunderstood Dr. Olden's e-mail, who (to my understanding) just tried to help everyone to reject sexist comments like the one originally posted. I am not saying that this kind of comments should not be publicly disapproved, and probably just moving them into the spam folder is not the best solution, but I really don't see why Dr. Olden should take the blame for it when he was just trying to help. Best, Miguel. 2013/2/18 Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.net Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student#x2019;s Guide to Neces sary Skills for Landing a Job Hi Yvette, Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely misguided and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you can ignore the silly responses of particular ECO-LOGGERS (some of which have a track record of this behavior) by filtering your emails. Unfortunately your email has added fuel to a series of ECOLOG posts that have very little to do with the original premise of the Blickley et al. (2012). Let's all move on now. Cheers, Julian --- Julian D. Olden Freshwater Ecology Conservation Lab School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195 e: mailto:ol...@uw.edu ol...@uw.edu, t: (206) 616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 w: http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ skype: goldenolden The face of the river . . . was not a book to be read once and thrown aside, for it had a new story to tell every day. Mark Twain On 2/18/13 7:37 AM, Yvette Dickinson mailto: yvette.dickin...@gmail.com yvette.dickin...@gmail.com wrote: Like Chandreyee Mitra I was surprised by the comment included in Clara's list: 7. ...i am somewhat exercised by your post because, IMO, too many young, especially, female, applicants don't bring much to the table that others don't already know or that cannot be readily duplicated or that is mostly generalist-oriented... This is a sentiment that I have heard before in other venues and find abhorrent. I initially chose not to comment on it here, but I do support Chandreyee's in her comment. However, I am disgusted by the response Chandreyee recieved. To be told to simply use your email filter and not worry your silly little head over such matters is offensive. The concerns Chandreyee raised are legitimate, and should be addressed with the gravity and respect they deserve. I would like to remind all readers of ESA's code of ethics, particularly principle g. Ecologists will not discriminate against others, in the course of their work on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, marital status, creed, religion, race, color, national origin, age, economic status, disability, or organizational affiliation. Yvette Dickinson -- *Miguel Cañedo-Argüelles* https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Miguel_Canedo-Argueelles/ *Lytle Lab* Cordley Hall Oregon State University Corvallis, Oregon (USA) 97331 http://www.science.oregonstate.edu/lytlelab/?q=home *Freshwater Ecology and Management (F.E.M.) research group*
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
Exactly! We are now all feeding the troll. Let's talk about best strategies to be successful. I taught myself GIS after getting my PhD (which is in economics btw) and was very willing to collaborate, rip my writing to shreds and re-submit to end up with grant proposals that would be funded (note that English is not my native language). I did have a great boss who let me be a co-PI while I was a staff scientist at a research center, and that sense of responsibilities and rewards being aligned did help. It also helped that my boss was a woman who had children so when I had children myself I did not feel shunned. But the point is that those GIS and grant writing skills got me my tenure track job, because they gave me an edge over the next candidate. For people working in ecology, it is true that R has some terrific advantages, but if you work with people in geography (as I do), many of them use ArgGIS, so that is also a consideration... Silvia On Mon, Feb 18, 2013 at 8:54 PM, Miguel Cañedo mcanedo@gmail.com wrote: Seems to me that you completely misunderstood Dr. Olden's e-mail, who (to my understanding) just tried to help everyone to reject sexist comments like the one originally posted. I am not saying that this kind of comments should not be publicly disapproved, and probably just moving them into the spam folder is not the best solution, but I really don't see why Dr. Olden should take the blame for it when he was just trying to help. Best, Miguel. 2013/2/18 Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.net Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student#x2019;s Guide to Neces sary Skills for Landing a Job Hi Yvette, Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely misguided and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you can ignore the silly responses of particular ECO-LOGGERS (some of which have a track record of this behavior) by filtering your emails. Unfortunately your email has added fuel to a series of ECOLOG posts that have very little to do with the original premise of the Blickley et al. (2012). Let's all move on now. Cheers, Julian --- Julian D. Olden Freshwater Ecology Conservation Lab School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195 e: mailto:ol...@uw.edu ol...@uw.edu, t: (206) 616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 w: http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ skype: goldenolden The face of the river . . . was not a book to be read once and thrown aside, for it had a new story to tell every day. Mark Twain On 2/18/13 7:37 AM, Yvette Dickinson mailto: yvette.dickin...@gmail.com yvette.dickin...@gmail.com wrote: Like Chandreyee Mitra I was surprised by the comment included in Clara's list: 7. ...i am somewhat exercised by your post because, IMO, too many young, especially, female, applicants don't bring much to the table that others don't already know or that cannot be readily duplicated or that is mostly generalist-oriented... This is a sentiment that I have heard before in other venues and find abhorrent. I initially chose
Re: [ECOLOG-L] Gender issues
Dear all, I was not at all offended by Dr. Olden's advice, and, as a matter of fact, found it very sensible. Thanks Chandreyee On Feb 18, 2013, at 13:40, Leslie M. Adams leslie.ad...@comcast.net wrote: Now, I am the one who must speak up and voice my support for Yvette (and Chandreyee). While no slight may have been intended, as a female scientist I too experienced the responses Yvette cites - and especially the one recently posted by Dr. Olden - as belittling and dismissive. There is considerable gender bias in the fields of ecology and biology and it is important to object to it whenever it arises; whether intentional or not. Perhaps it is easy to counsel moving on when you are unaffected by this handicap personally, but to say that it is somehow unsuitable or inappropriate to address on this listserv is ridiculous and dismisses the tremendously damaging effect this bias has on many, many lives. It is also not lost on me that the issue of gender has somehow arisen in a discussion of the skills necessary for landing a job in ecology. I would suggest that this is no coincidence. Leslie M. Adams, Ph.D. Adjunct Professor of Plant Systematics Professional Training and Development University of New Hampshire http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ http://home.comcast.net/~leslie.adams/ Home Office: 603 / 659-6177 Adjunct Associate Professor of Environmental Sustainability School of Undergraduate Studies (online) University of Maryland University College Adjunct Professor of Life Sciences Department of Liberal Arts New Hampshire Institute of Art We can't solve problems by using the same kind of thinking we used when we created them. - Albert Einstein -Original Message- From: Ecological Society of America: grants, jobs, news [mailto:ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU] On Behalf Of Julian Olden Sent: Monday, February 18, 2013 1:04 PM To: ECOLOG-L@LISTSERV.UMD.EDU Subject: Re: [ECOLOG-L] A Graduate Student#x2019;s Guide to Neces sary Skills for Landing a Job Hi Yvette, Apologies, but your interpretation of my suggestion is extremely misguided and flat-out wrong. My response was a cleaver way of saying that you can ignore the silly responses of particular ECO-LOGGERS (some of which have a track record of this behavior) by filtering your emails. Unfortunately your email has added fuel to a series of ECOLOG posts that have very little to do with the original premise of the Blickley et al. (2012). Let's all move on now. Cheers, Julian --- Julian D. Olden Freshwater Ecology Conservation Lab School of Aquatic and Fishery Sciences University of Washington, Seattle WA 98195 e: mailto:ol...@uw.edu ol...@uw.edu, t: (206) 616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 tel:%28206%29%20616-3112 w: http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ http://www.fish.washington.edu/research/oldenlab/ skype: goldenolden The face of the river . . . was not a book to be read once and thrown aside, for it had a new story to tell every day. Mark Twain On 2/18/13 7:37 AM, Yvette Dickinson mailto:yvette.dickin...@gmail.com yvette.dickin...@gmail.com wrote: Like Chandreyee Mitra I was surprised by the comment included in Clara's list: 7. ...i am somewhat exercised by your post because, IMO, too many young, especially, female, applicants don't bring much to the table that others don't already know or that cannot be readily duplicated or that is mostly generalist-oriented... This is a sentiment that I have heard before in other venues and find abhorrent. I initially chose not to comment on it here, but I do support Chandreyee's in her comment. However, I am disgusted by the response Chandreyee recieved. To be told to simply use your email filter and not worry your silly little head over such matters is offensive. The concerns Chandreyee raised are legitimate, and should be addressed with the gravity and respect they deserve. I would like to remind all readers of ESA's code of ethics, particularly principle g. Ecologists will not discriminate against others, in the course of their work on the basis of gender, sexual orientation, marital status, creed, religion, race, color, national origin, age, economic status, disability, or organizational affiliation. Yvette Dickinson
