[Emc-users] Happy happy, joy, joy! Tuned mill perfectly! Thank you GUYS!!!
OK, great thanks to all. Tonight was a great evening. First I tried to change velocity control loop (tachometer mode) on the bothersome Y amplifier to current (torque) control . Then things went well very fast and I was able to tune the Y axis near perfectly with FF1 and FF2. The f-error is not within about 0.0002" or so. NO MORE jacking around, no more vibration, Y stops immediately without any buzzing, moves smoothly etc. I was able to up the max acceleration too. Then I went on to Z, which bothered me too as were all axes, just less than Y. Current mode. The trick to get Z working right was to set BIAS, because Z is subject to gravity. Again, under 0.0002" f-error. Both when steadily moving, as well as under acceleration. BIAS, FF1 and FF2 were my big friends. After that, X was the last sweet target. Bye bye tachometer feedback, welcome current loop. After just 2-3 minutes, with better FF1 and FF2 I get f-error under 0.0002". Also increased max acceleration, which will no doubt improve small work performance and truetype-tracer times. I now have a sweet quiet little Bridgeport Interact mill that does not act like it is PMSing 30 days a month. 90 IPM on X and Y (I limited myself to 60 IPM on Z for safety). Quick to home and quiet. That double velocity loop, ad I now realize, was not good for what I was trying to do. Guys, you are AWESOME! Many hugs to all of you from beautiful Lisle, IL! - Igor -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] simple servo amplifier
Stuart Stevenson wrote: > Gentlemen, > The servo amps on the Enshu have different accel/decel shapes. The > PID.output trace has a sharp corner to it. The trace raises a little and > then turns almost straight up. The decel trace is MUCH more rounded. Does > this sound like an amplifier problem? > Not necessarily. It may just be a symptom of friction. During acceleration, the motor is not only accelerating the mass, it is also fighting the friction of the slide, both have the same mathematical sign. On deceleration, it must fight the mass of the table, which exactly mirrors the accel condition, BUT the friction is now of opposite sign, and is HELPING the deceleration. So, you can't perfectly optimize FF2 to cover both conditions. I wouldn't look at the PID.output, but just at following error, and set FF2 to balance the error of the two situations. If you have large discontinuities at the accel/decel time, then you may have to reduce acceleration in the .ini file, you may be asking for too much accel. > I am thinking it would be possible to convert this Fanuc amp to a simple > amp by fooling the tach feedback. This servo amp accepts the encoder > feedback on two terminals and converts these two signals into a tach voltage > for comparison to the velocity signal. Would it be possible to do one of two > things to convert it to a simple amp with no tuning to the motor. > I think the best way would be to find where the chip ouputs the matching > tach voltage and connect the velocity signal voltage at that point. The amp > would think the motor is following the signal perfectly and require no > output adjustment. > Well, I happen to think a real velocity servo amp is just about unbeatable. It does require some more tuning than some other systems, but can be expected to perform better under a wide variety of conditions. > or > I could use an ADC to accept the velocity signal and generate an encoder > pulse to match what would be seen as feedback from the motor. > Either way this feedback would be perfectly matched to the input. > EMC2's tuning would then have complete and total control of the servo > motor (axis motion) Not sure how an analog-digital converter would be used here. More likely, you'd need a digital to analog converter to produce the simulated tach signal. But, most servo amps can be converted to torque mode, usually by pulling a jumper that bypasses the velocity error amp. But, I still feel that a velocity servo with a real tach should work well, and you need a VERY high resolution encoder to move smoothly without a tach. Maybe you could post the trace you are concerned about. Jon -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] FF0, FF1, FF2
Jon, I will try to switch my Y axis to torque mode to see if it helps with spurious oscillations. The "bad brushes" may be a good explanation. But I feel like I should try torque mode for many reasons. - Igor On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 8:05 PM, Jon Elson wrote: > Igor Chudov wrote: >> Also, could it be that my "servos cannot calm down" issue is somehow >> caused by noise getting into the tachometer signal? I did install >> ferrite cores on the motor cables, and they are twisted at least going >> to the main terminal block of the mill. But perhaps I still missed >> something. >> > Yes, it is possible. It is also possible the brushes in your tach are > dirty or just plain > worn out. You could hook the tach to an oscilloscope and turn the motor > by hand > or with a battery. If you see a lot of spikes or discontinuities, that > is real bad for > a servo loop. I did some testing about a decade ago trying to figure > out how slow > an axis could move, and I got it down to where the tach would have been > producing > about 7 microvolts. This was however enough to keep the servo loop > closed, as if I > shorted the tach with a screwdriver, the servo amp would immediately > fault out. > If brush noise is the problem, you may be able to put a 0.1 uF capacitor > across the > tach inputs at the servo amp to suppress this, but it is likely to > slowly get worse. > Or, possibly, continued use will actually improve the problem, as the > tach's commutator > may have tarnished while the machine sat, before you bought it, now it > is getting cleaned. > I give the caution about not scoping the tach signal while the machine > is running, as > it may cause ground loop problems, depending how the tach connection to > the servo > amp is set up. > > I used 3 instrumentation amps in my own servo amp design, one for > command input, > one for tach input and one for current sensing. These eliminated all > ground loops > in the servo system. Many servo amps leave these out due to cost, and > therefor > suffer some ground loops between one servo amp, through the common grounds > and back to another servo amp. > > Jon > > -- > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] simple servo amplifier
Gentlemen, The servo amps on the Enshu have different accel/decel shapes. The PID.output trace has a sharp corner to it. The trace raises a little and then turns almost straight up. The decel trace is MUCH more rounded. Does this sound like an amplifier problem? I am thinking it would be possible to convert this Fanuc amp to a simple amp by fooling the tach feedback. This servo amp accepts the encoder feedback on two terminals and converts these two signals into a tach voltage for comparison to the velocity signal. Would it be possible to do one of two things to convert it to a simple amp with no tuning to the motor. I think the best way would be to find where the chip ouputs the matching tach voltage and connect the velocity signal voltage at that point. The amp would think the motor is following the signal perfectly and require no output adjustment. or I could use an ADC to accept the velocity signal and generate an encoder pulse to match what would be seen as feedback from the motor. Either way this feedback would be perfectly matched to the input. EMC2's tuning would then have complete and total control of the servo motor (axis motion). Am I crazy or all wet? thanks Stuart -- dos centavos -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] No Video when booting Live CD ubuntu 10.04.
Hi All; On the system where I downloaded and burned the Live CD, it ran from the CD OK. (This is the slowest computer of the bunch). When I try to run the CD on my EMC machine computers it loads through the red and white dots fine until it is time for the video. Then all I get is a few slight changes in the black background hue and no video forever. The ubuntu 8.04 Live CD works fine on these machines and the video cards and monitors are capable of 1280 x 1024. Any suggestions anyone? Thanks Don -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
Wow That is a large machine. Dave On 9/14/2010 4:15 PM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > now you are testing my memory banks - I think the weight is 68,000 lbs - the > Y axis ram with the Z axis, the AB head and the counterweight is 30,000 lbs. > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Dave wrote: > > >> Stuart, >> >> OK.. >> >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn1bJ3YAQdI >> >> Is this the machine?Impressive video and machine. >> >> How much does that machine weigh roughly? (Assuming it is yours.) >> >> Dave >> >> >> On 9/14/2010 10:49 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: >> >>> no - this machine has encoders on the motors and is compensated using the >>> lead screw compensation and the cincikins that corrects for geometric >>> >> errors >> >>> On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Dave wrote: >>> >>> >>> Stuart, Do you have direct reading linear scales on that machine? Dave On 9/14/2010 8:17 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > Hi, > The shop is using the machine and beginning to trust it. They are > > running > a flat plate (2 1/2 axis) part with more than 130 holes. The hole > >> pattern >> > has a true position requirement of .004 (this is roughly +-.002) > diametrical. I am not certain it can do this tolerance. This will be a > > good > test. We will see. The idea they think (and will even try) it might do > >> it >> > is > to me a testament to the machine and control capability. I will report > results when I hear. > thanks > Stuart > > > > >> -- >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> >> > > > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] FF0, FF1, FF2
Igor Chudov wrote: > Also, could it be that my "servos cannot calm down" issue is somehow > caused by noise getting into the tachometer signal? I did install > ferrite cores on the motor cables, and they are twisted at least going > to the main terminal block of the mill. But perhaps I still missed > something. > Yes, it is possible. It is also possible the brushes in your tach are dirty or just plain worn out. You could hook the tach to an oscilloscope and turn the motor by hand or with a battery. If you see a lot of spikes or discontinuities, that is real bad for a servo loop. I did some testing about a decade ago trying to figure out how slow an axis could move, and I got it down to where the tach would have been producing about 7 microvolts. This was however enough to keep the servo loop closed, as if I shorted the tach with a screwdriver, the servo amp would immediately fault out. If brush noise is the problem, you may be able to put a 0.1 uF capacitor across the tach inputs at the servo amp to suppress this, but it is likely to slowly get worse. Or, possibly, continued use will actually improve the problem, as the tach's commutator may have tarnished while the machine sat, before you bought it, now it is getting cleaned. I give the caution about not scoping the tach signal while the machine is running, as it may cause ground loop problems, depending how the tach connection to the servo amp is set up. I used 3 instrumentation amps in my own servo amp design, one for command input, one for tach input and one for current sensing. These eliminated all ground loops in the servo system. Many servo amps leave these out due to cost, and therefor suffer some ground loops between one servo amp, through the common grounds and back to another servo amp. Jon -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Beginner question about cable lengths
On Tue, 14 Sep 2010, Kai Schaeffer wrote:
Date: Tue, 14 Sep 2010 14:20:21 +0200
From: Kai Schaeffer
Reply-To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)"
To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
Subject: [Emc-users] Beginner question about cable lengths
Hi everyone,
We are planing a spray system on a X-Y-table and want to control it with
EMC. We want to use servo motors. When I see it right a common setup is
to use for instance a Mesa 5i20 board and a 7i30 H-bridge. My question
is now: what cable lengths are possible. I guess the H-bridge should be
close to the I/O card i.e. PC. So I have a long cable between the
H-bridge and the motors. What lengths are possible there?
A more common set of cards is a 5I20 and a 7I33TA analog servo interface, to
be used with analog servo drives. The 7I30 is a very small HBridge, only
suitable for small tabletop mills if that
Just a thought I had: wouldn't it be a good idea to bring the H-bridge
close to the motors? Then you need a different link between the I/O card
and H-bridge. The 7i43 supports the USB port, but there I see some
problems with the realtime, right? But what about the 5i21 I/O with a
8i20 card and a serial RS-422 link between them? I know, it's not
support at the moment, but is it possible in general? Or is there
something I miss?
There should not be much trouble with long encoder or motor leads as long as
you use differential encoders and shielded wire. The motor wires
should be shielded as well (with their own shield)
The 8I20 is not supported by EMC yet but theres is a possibility of support
soon. The 5I21 could be used but probably a simpler solution as far as wiring
goes is to use a 5I20 or 5I23 (5I23 preferred) and a 7I44 RS-422 daughtercard,
as this daughtercard uses the same cables (standard Ethernet Cat5) and pinout
as the 8I20 for the serial link.
Regards,
Kai
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12277 Berlin FAX: +49-30-8058695-33
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Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
now you are testing my memory banks - I think the weight is 68,000 lbs - the Y axis ram with the Z axis, the AB head and the counterweight is 30,000 lbs. On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 2:57 PM, Dave wrote: > Stuart, > > OK.. > > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn1bJ3YAQdI > > Is this the machine?Impressive video and machine. > > How much does that machine weigh roughly? (Assuming it is yours.) > > Dave > > > On 9/14/2010 10:49 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > > no - this machine has encoders on the motors and is compensated using the > > lead screw compensation and the cincikins that corrects for geometric > errors > > > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Dave wrote: > > > > > >> Stuart, > >> > >> Do you have direct reading linear scales on that machine? > >> > >> Dave > >> > >> On 9/14/2010 8:17 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > >> > >>> Hi, > >>> The shop is using the machine and beginning to trust it. They are > >>> > >> running > >> > >>> a flat plate (2 1/2 axis) part with more than 130 holes. The hole > pattern > >>> has a true position requirement of .004 (this is roughly +-.002) > >>> diametrical. I am not certain it can do this tolerance. This will be a > >>> > >> good > >> > >>> test. We will see. The idea they think (and will even try) it might do > it > >>> > >> is > >> > >>> to me a testament to the machine and control capability. I will report > >>> results when I hear. > >>> thanks > >>> Stuart > >>> > >>> > >>> > >> > >> > >> > -- > >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and > >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > >> ___ > >> Emc-users mailing list > >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > >> > >> > > > > > > > > > > -- > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- dos centavos -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Fwd: [EMC Support Forum Forum] Re:10.04 live cd no Realtime (Installing EMC)
It's not APIC, but LAPIC (Local APIC) that's the troublesome thingie. There are some (older?) BIOS'es that apparently don't enable it by default, so the user has to enable lapic at boot time (kernel param). There have been quite a few messages how to fix this. But here it goes again: in /etc/default/grub, change GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash" to GRUB_CMDLINE_LINUX_DEFAULT="quiet splash lapic" and then run update-grub and reboot This only works if your system _does_ have an LAPIC. If you get the error message: [ 0.080250] Local APIC not detected. Using dummy APIC emulation. then you are out of luck, and you need a non-SMP RTAI install (hardy 8.04 for example). Regards, Alex - Original Message - From: "Andy Pugh" To: "Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC)" Sent: Tuesday, September 14, 2010 10:24 PM Subject: [Emc-users] Fwd: [EMC Support Forum Forum] Re:10.04 live cd no Realtime (Installing EMC) Any ideas about APIC support dependency? -- Forwarded message -- Well, yes .. .that was one of my issues !! I did try switching the APIC option in within my BIOS and I came up with a whole different set of errors, that said about the same thing. the out put ended with: RTAI[hal]:ERROR, LOCAL APIC CONFIGURED BUT NOT AVAILABLE/ENABLED Yesterday, I did some experimenting and a good bit of google research and one promising thing i found was this site: http://www.network-crawler.de/index.php/RTAI --which notes that if i get this error, then I will have to recompile. I have not idea what exactly i would recompile or how to do it, so please, if anyone knows, spell it out to me (i am really bad at Linux stuff). The computer that I am trying to install 10.04 onto is a neoware e100 thin client, with a VIA processor. Although it is x86 compliant, some earlier versions were made without support for APIC. This can be found by typing $ 'cat /proc/cpuinfo' and looking at the flags section. Well, lucky me, my processor does not support APIC, however my BIOS does not seem to know (or care). I am pretty sure that no APIC support on the process is my issue here, and this has absolutely nothing to do with 10.04. --Moderators, if you want to two and put in a new thread, feel free. -- So, at this point I have two questions: 1 - Does EMC2 require APIC support to run ? 2 - How would I go about configuring EMC2 to run with out APIC support ? Any help is greatly appreciated!! Thanks in advance. - -- atp -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG - www.avg.com Version: 9.0.851 / Virus Database: 271.1.1/3134 - Release Date: 09/14/10 09:35:00 -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
Stuart, OK.. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn1bJ3YAQdI Is this the machine?Impressive video and machine. How much does that machine weigh roughly? (Assuming it is yours.) Dave On 9/14/2010 10:49 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > no - this machine has encoders on the motors and is compensated using the > lead screw compensation and the cincikins that corrects for geometric errors > > On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Dave wrote: > > >> Stuart, >> >> Do you have direct reading linear scales on that machine? >> >> Dave >> >> On 9/14/2010 8:17 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: >> >>> Hi, >>> The shop is using the machine and beginning to trust it. They are >>> >> running >> >>> a flat plate (2 1/2 axis) part with more than 130 holes. The hole pattern >>> has a true position requirement of .004 (this is roughly +-.002) >>> diametrical. I am not certain it can do this tolerance. This will be a >>> >> good >> >>> test. We will see. The idea they think (and will even try) it might do it >>> >> is >> >>> to me a testament to the machine and control capability. I will report >>> results when I hear. >>> thanks >>> Stuart >>> >>> >>> >> >> >> -- >> Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances >> and start using them to simplify application deployment and >> accelerate your shift to cloud computing. >> http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev >> ___ >> Emc-users mailing list >> Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net >> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users >> >> > > > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Beginner question about cable lengths
I'm not sure about the Mesa 7I30 board, but running servo power cables and the encoder cables long distances are generally not a problem if you use differential encoders. I installed some 1 KW servos with 60 foot power and encoder cables this past summer. I just quoted some Siemens servo drives and motors that have 120 foot cables. How far do you want to go? Dave On 9/14/2010 8:20 AM, Kai Schaeffer wrote: > Hi everyone, > > We are planing a spray system on a X-Y-table and want to control it with > EMC. We want to use servo motors. When I see it right a common setup is > to use for instance a Mesa 5i20 board and a 7i30 H-bridge. My question > is now: what cable lengths are possible. I guess the H-bridge should be > close to the I/O card i.e. PC. So I have a long cable between the > H-bridge and the motors. What lengths are possible there? > > Just a thought I had: wouldn't it be a good idea to bring the H-bridge > close to the motors? Then you need a different link between the I/O card > and H-bridge. The 7i43 supports the USB port, but there I see some > problems with the realtime, right? But what about the 5i21 I/O with a > 8i20 card and a serial RS-422 link between them? I know, it's not > support at the moment, but is it possible in general? Or is there > something I miss? > > Regards, > Kai > > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Fwd: [EMC Support Forum Forum] Re:10.04 live cd no Realtime (Installing EMC)
Any ideas about APIC support dependency? -- Forwarded message -- Well, yes .. .that was one of my issues !! I did try switching the APIC option in within my BIOS and I came up with a whole different set of errors, that said about the same thing. the out put ended with: RTAI[hal]:ERROR, LOCAL APIC CONFIGURED BUT NOT AVAILABLE/ENABLED Yesterday, I did some experimenting and a good bit of google research and one promising thing i found was this site: http://www.network-crawler.de/index.php/RTAI --which notes that if i get this error, then I will have to recompile. I have not idea what exactly i would recompile or how to do it, so please, if anyone knows, spell it out to me (i am really bad at Linux stuff). The computer that I am trying to install 10.04 onto is a neoware e100 thin client, with a VIA processor. Although it is x86 compliant, some earlier versions were made without support for APIC. This can be found by typing $ 'cat /proc/cpuinfo' and looking at the flags section. Well, lucky me, my processor does not support APIC, however my BIOS does not seem to know (or care). I am pretty sure that no APIC support on the process is my issue here, and this has absolutely nothing to do with 10.04. --Moderators, if you want to two and put in a new thread, feel free. -- So, at this point I have two questions: 1 - Does EMC2 require APIC support to run ? 2 - How would I go about configuring EMC2 to run with out APIC support ? Any help is greatly appreciated!! Thanks in advance. - -- atp -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Free Form Motion - G-code question
On 14 September 2010 19:03, Spiderdab <77...@tiscali.it> wrote: > you used this formula for position: > =A10+(($B$3-$B$2)/$B$8) > what is the use of $? is it for incrementing the value of the cell? It turns off auto-increment when you drag-fill rows and columns. > then i've to change something, because what you wrote is for real > balistic, but what i have to move is something that can be real, or > slowed down like matrix-stile, You can change the value of g and air resistance, so you should be able to do that part easily. > or, while flying the ball has to make a > fantastic spiral as in a cartoon (do you remember Mimi Ayuara?) That is more difficult :-) -- atp -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Free Form Motion - G-code question
On 14 September 2010 19:11, Spiderdab <77...@tiscali.it> wrote: > > ..and another stupid question... > when i run that on my pc (Openoffice) i do not have the grafic box > drawing the curve. > how can i turn it on? I am not sure, but you could just create a new graph. Altenatively, work on that Google Spreadsheet as your live document. Cloud computing is the way of the future (and of the past, anyone else remember mainframes and terminals?) -- atp -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Free Form Motion - G-code question
..and another stupid question... when i run that on my pc (Openoffice) i do not have the grafic box drawing the curve. how can i turn it on? -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Free Form Motion - G-code question
Il 13/09/2010 20:46, Andy Pugh ha scritto: > On 13 September 2010 11:55, Spiderdab<77...@tiscali.it> wrote: > > >>> I was about to start on a spreadsheet to generate ballistic >>> trajectories as G-code, then remembered that I am at work and paid to >>> do other stuff. When do you need this project working? >>> >>> >> you're a gentleman.. maybe i just need a little example to start, than >> i can improve that so i'm not going to take away time from your work. >> (but tell me truth, which is more interesting? :-) >> > Note that the ball stops instantaneously at the end of each arc, when > it hits the player, and before setting off in a new direction. > So, the path can be derived by pasting together a sequence of simple > ballistic arcs. > This does mean that each "hit" of the ball will appear to be equally > hard (and will be governed by the global accelleration values). > This spreadsheet just calculates a ballistic trajectory between points > in X,Y,Z space. > You need to enter starting X,Y,Z and finish X,Y. You will have to > fiddle the initial elevation angle and velocity to hit your final Z > position as this is a discrete step algorithm rather than an > analytical solution. (Sorry). > Air resistance is modelled as linear with velocity. This is probably > not true. If you want to use a more complex term then it is easy > enough to change the equations. > https://spreadsheets.google.com/ccc?key=0AhjJW1-T6n7CdDRTdWRvdnByRHEyTW1vZ2VYbWxDSVE&hl=en&authkey=CMP5ouIK > andy, thank you a lot for the file! now i'm not playing with the file much, 'cause in trouble with two burned transistors.. but i saw it worked! one OO question, if you have time to answer.. you used this formula for position: =A10+(($B$3-$B$2)/$B$8) what is the use of $? is it for incrementing the value of the cell? otherwise i don't know how you did it...(sorry for my ignorance..) then i've to change something, because what you wrote is for real balistic, but what i have to move is something that can be real, or slowed down like matrix-stile, or, while flying the ball has to make a fantastic spiral as in a cartoon (do you remember Mimi Ayuara?) so the formula for the real balistic is very useful, but i have to add almost the initial and final acceleration, or my motor shaft/axle connector will die.. again thanks. Promotion: LET'S ADD AN ACC/DEC HAL PIN !!! -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
On Tue, 2010-09-14 at 00:29 -0700, Youda He wrote: > Hi, > > We are planning to built/buy 5 Axis mills for making some art > pieces, we will using laser scanner to scan the original in clay, then > carve the piece in some stone or wood. The mill will be 5 axis one, > just wonder if EMC can control 5 Axis mills. If not can someone > recommend a good software to drive the mill? > > Thanks. > > -- Youda To see some examples of EMC2 on five axis machines, try a search on youtube for "EMC2 5 axis". (This link might work) http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=emc2+5+axis -- Kirk Wallace http://www.wallacecompany.com/machine_shop/ http://www.wallacecompany.com/E45/index.html California, USA -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] FF0, FF1, FF2
Javier, this is really a great post and you seem to have done a lot of related work in the past. If so, what is your thinking about the best (easiest to tune) mode for the servo amplifier: tachometer mode, torque mode, voltage mode? If I have so many problems with tachometer mode, should I perhaps switch to torque mode? or voltage mode? In both of them, feedback is internal to the drive itself. - Igor On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 12:07 PM, jros wrote: > > > > > > I would consider the BIAS parameter along the FF0 FF1 and FF2. > > Then all the the terms can be considered Feed Forward terms of the > controller, and the part of the control they deal with is conceptually > called "feed forward control". > > The feed forward capabilities implemented by those terms can be enough > to implement feed forward compensation of mayor dynamical effects in the > context of Cartesian machines. If the dynamics is nonlinear, accurate > feed forward terms would in general be nonlinear. > > The meaning of these parameters are dependent in the meaning of the > output of our controller. > > For example if the output of your controller is torque, > then the feed forward terms can be used to compensate (examples): > > BIAS: Torque that is needed in an axis to compensate the gravity > effects. > > FF0: Torque that is needed to compensate the forces induced by springs > (if present at all), for example, belows covering linear guides can > induce a elastic component (also viscous etc). > > FF1: Torque that is proportional to velocity, for example due to viscous > friction > > FF2: Torque tat is proportional to acceleration, this is almost always > torque used to compensate the inertia. > > A interesting torque that EMC ca not compensate for is Coulomb type > friction, that would be like a BIAS but dependent with the sense of > motion (v/abs(v)). > > If the output of the controller is velocity you should judge the meaning > yourself. > > Finally when assigning values to these parameters, I think that a good > idea is to be conservative. > > Gravity effects, and inertia effects are likely to be constant along the > life of the machine (ignoring variable loads), but this is not the case > of friction (viscous or coulomb), elastic component can be pretty stable > if there is not malfunction or broken elastic elements. > > I recommend only to compensate the part of the torque that you know is > going to be there always. I'm not sure but overcompensating a frictions > not a good idea so don't use friction compensation or compensate only > the minimum friction that you are expecting. Also values of friction can > only be estimated after experimentation (identification), this can be > the case of stiffness, but usually gravity and inertial terms can be > estimated from cad data (part weight and -additionally- gravity center > position in the case of gravity compensation). > > Feed forward compensation can be in general a good idea, as it > theoretically removes work from the standard PID controller what > theoretically should make things work better/smoother. > > In the case of nonlinear dynamics, you can still use those terms to > compensate the first term in the tailor series expansion of the above > mentioned torques. > > If you implement your own pid module, and use a dynamic model of your > machine to accurately compute the output of the FF? terms you ar making > essentially what is know as CTC (computed torque control), that is the > generalized version (for non Cartesian architectures) of the > implementation present in EMC, that in my opinion is almost the best > (except for Coulomb terms) implementation without introducing particular > characteristic of the machine, what turns out to be the case. > > I hope this helps, > > Javier > > > > > -- > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] FF0, FF1, FF2
A few things to look at - My inital hookup of the amc drives to the mesa hardware was wrong. ( I had just hooked +/- up to the drive with the shield hooked to ground.) I did some searching and found this http://www.a-m-c.com/download/document/support/general/instnotes.pdf Look at section 3.1 - I used the wiring examples there. The thing smoothed out. Also - this goes into tuning http://www.a-m-c.com/download/document/support/analog/tuning_procedure.pdf On 9/14/2010 8:34 AM, Igor Chudov wrote: > Guys, honest, I did look for explanations and did not find enough. > > Could someone explain what are FF0, FF1 and FF2 parameters pertaining > to tuning a servo loop? > > Thanks > > - Igor > > -- > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] FF0, FF1, FF2
I would consider the BIAS parameter along the FF0 FF1 and FF2. Then all the the terms can be considered Feed Forward terms of the controller, and the part of the control they deal with is conceptually called "feed forward control". The feed forward capabilities implemented by those terms can be enough to implement feed forward compensation of mayor dynamical effects in the context of Cartesian machines. If the dynamics is nonlinear, accurate feed forward terms would in general be nonlinear. The meaning of these parameters are dependent in the meaning of the output of our controller. For example if the output of your controller is torque, then the feed forward terms can be used to compensate (examples): BIAS: Torque that is needed in an axis to compensate the gravity effects. FF0: Torque that is needed to compensate the forces induced by springs (if present at all), for example, belows covering linear guides can induce a elastic component (also viscous etc). FF1: Torque that is proportional to velocity, for example due to viscous friction FF2: Torque tat is proportional to acceleration, this is almost always torque used to compensate the inertia. A interesting torque that EMC ca not compensate for is Coulomb type friction, that would be like a BIAS but dependent with the sense of motion (v/abs(v)). If the output of the controller is velocity you should judge the meaning yourself. Finally when assigning values to these parameters, I think that a good idea is to be conservative. Gravity effects, and inertia effects are likely to be constant along the life of the machine (ignoring variable loads), but this is not the case of friction (viscous or coulomb), elastic component can be pretty stable if there is not malfunction or broken elastic elements. I recommend only to compensate the part of the torque that you know is going to be there always. I'm not sure but overcompensating a frictions not a good idea so don't use friction compensation or compensate only the minimum friction that you are expecting. Also values of friction can only be estimated after experimentation (identification), this can be the case of stiffness, but usually gravity and inertial terms can be estimated from cad data (part weight and -additionally- gravity center position in the case of gravity compensation). Feed forward compensation can be in general a good idea, as it theoretically removes work from the standard PID controller what theoretically should make things work better/smoother. In the case of nonlinear dynamics, you can still use those terms to compensate the first term in the tailor series expansion of the above mentioned torques. If you implement your own pid module, and use a dynamic model of your machine to accurately compute the output of the FF? terms you ar making essentially what is know as CTC (computed torque control), that is the generalized version (for non Cartesian architectures) of the implementation present in EMC, that in my opinion is almost the best (except for Coulomb terms) implementation without introducing particular characteristic of the machine, what turns out to be the case. I hope this helps, Javier -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] FF0, FF1, FF2
Igor, check tacho feedback with a real scope no amplifier connected turn slow and steady ( big wheel helps , may need DC supply to release any brake ) look for mechanical influences like brushes, armature slots, bearings, connections then attach amplifier and observe with NO motion when no motion you have your quietest signal, this is your base tacho signal, it wont get any better than this if you look with scope at tacho feedback before the above simle tests, you will see a sum of many smaller items. regards tomp -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] FF0, FF1, FF2
Jon and Andy, thanks. I finally understood what it was. It does look useful for my application, as evidenced by my use of Halscope. I will try it soon. Also, could it be that my "servos cannot calm down" issue is somehow caused by noise getting into the tachometer signal? I did install ferrite cores on the motor cables, and they are twisted at least going to the main terminal block of the mill. But perhaps I still missed something. - Igor On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 11:18 AM, Jon Elson wrote: > Igor Chudov wrote: >> Guys, honest, I did look for explanations and did not find enough. >> >> Could someone explain what are FF0, FF1 and FF2 parameters pertaining >> to tuning a servo loop? >> >> > FF0 is a value added to the output proportional to position. It is not > really useful, > but there for pedantic reasons. > > FF1 is a value added to the output proportional to commanded velocity > (ie. derivative of position, > hence why FF0 exists.) So, if you have a velocity of 1 user unit per > second, and an FF1 value > of 1.0, the output command to the DAC will get an additional 1.0 added > to what comes from > the PID. This is a feedforward, so it takes no notice of actual > velocity or error, but is immediate > as it doesn't have to wait for the machine's response. > > FF2 is a value added to the output proportional to commanded acceleration. > > So, leave FF0 at 0.0 > Once you have the PID set as good as you can get it, FF1 can be adjusted > to reduce the > error when in the cruise (constant velocity) part of a move. You can > usually set it so > the error is within 1-2 encoder counts of zero over a wide range of > velocities. > > Then, adjust FF2, using very small values, generally, to reduce the > error spikes during > acceleration and deceleration. It is very easy to overcorrect with > this, so you can reduce > the setting to zero every once in a while to make sure which direction > the real error is in. > Typically, numbers look like 0.001 to 0.08 > > > Jon > > -- > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] FF0, FF1, FF2
Igor Chudov wrote: > Guys, honest, I did look for explanations and did not find enough. > > Could someone explain what are FF0, FF1 and FF2 parameters pertaining > to tuning a servo loop? > > FF0 is a value added to the output proportional to position. It is not really useful, but there for pedantic reasons. FF1 is a value added to the output proportional to commanded velocity (ie. derivative of position, hence why FF0 exists.) So, if you have a velocity of 1 user unit per second, and an FF1 value of 1.0, the output command to the DAC will get an additional 1.0 added to what comes from the PID. This is a feedforward, so it takes no notice of actual velocity or error, but is immediate as it doesn't have to wait for the machine's response. FF2 is a value added to the output proportional to commanded acceleration. So, leave FF0 at 0.0 Once you have the PID set as good as you can get it, FF1 can be adjusted to reduce the error when in the cruise (constant velocity) part of a move. You can usually set it so the error is within 1-2 encoder counts of zero over a wide range of velocities. Then, adjust FF2, using very small values, generally, to reduce the error spikes during acceleration and deceleration. It is very easy to overcorrect with this, so you can reduce the setting to zero every once in a while to make sure which direction the real error is in. Typically, numbers look like 0.001 to 0.08 Jon -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Beginner question about cable lengths
>> Question on the system mechanics. How accurate do you need to be with a >> Spray system? Why spend the money for servos in this application? I would >> think the accuracy levels needed for spraying would be well served (cost >> and >> operationally) by a stepper system? >> >> BG >> >> > I agree on the argument leading the question above. Servo's are fun but it's > overkill for your application. Well, if you get them for free why not, if > you pay - use steppers and spend the budget on the sprayer instead. > You are right, servos seems to be an overkill here. But there are two reason for us to use them: 1. It's an experimenting system where we want to try different speeds - also higher speeds like 2m/min. Yes theoretically possible with stepper motors, but... 2. We also want to get experience for a bigger project we are planing. There we want to build a complete milling machine with a higher dynamic and accuracy. So servos are definitely needed there. > But to return to the original question, I run servo's with 6 m cables with > no problem. But you need good cables and good encoders. If you do have > quality cables (and encoders) the cables can be much longer than that. My > friend has a servo based system big enough to mill a complete boat hull, I > would estimate the cable length to more than 15 m. > Thank you for your hints. -Kai -- Schaeffer AG Dipl.-Phys. Kai Schaeffer Vorstand Nahmitzer Damm 32 Tel. +49-30-8058695-25 12277 Berlin FAX: +49-30-8058695-33 http://www.schaeffer-ag.de HRB 93611 B, Amtsgericht Berlin Charlottenburg Vorstand: Jörg Schaeffer, Kai Schaeffer Aufsichtsrat: Dieter Kersten (Vorsitzender) -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
no - this machine has encoders on the motors and is compensated using the lead screw compensation and the cincikins that corrects for geometric errors On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:02 AM, Dave wrote: > Stuart, > > Do you have direct reading linear scales on that machine? > > Dave > > On 9/14/2010 8:17 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > > Hi, > >The shop is using the machine and beginning to trust it. They are > running > > a flat plate (2 1/2 axis) part with more than 130 holes. The hole pattern > > has a true position requirement of .004 (this is roughly +-.002) > > diametrical. I am not certain it can do this tolerance. This will be a > good > > test. We will see. The idea they think (and will even try) it might do it > is > > to me a testament to the machine and control capability. I will report > > results when I hear. > > thanks > > Stuart > > > > > > > > -- > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- dos centavos -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
EMC is not only capable to control 5 axis machine, it also is capable to handle different calculations and conversions in kinematics to get a match between axis and joints. I have a kinematics module, which takes code for 4 axis - 3 linear axis and tilt angle for A axis, calculates position for C axis, which is equal to tangent of the XY movement and transfer it into correct movements for joints, which are mounted on A and B axis. So basically, I have a machine with two horizontal rotary axis, which behaves like one of the rotary axis is vertical. There are examples, where EMC controls also a hexapod (robot with 6 legs and 3 joints (motors) in each leg). Short answer to Your question - yes, EMC definately can handle a 5 axis machine. Viesturs 2010/9/14 Youda He : > Hi, > > We are planning to built/buy 5 Axis mills for making some art > pieces, we will using laser scanner to scan the original in clay, then > carve the piece in some stone or wood. The mill will be 5 axis one, > just wonder if EMC can control 5 Axis mills. If not can someone > recommend a good software to drive the mill? > > Thanks. > > -- Youda > > -- > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
Stuart, Do you have direct reading linear scales on that machine? Dave On 9/14/2010 8:17 AM, Stuart Stevenson wrote: > Hi, >The shop is using the machine and beginning to trust it. They are running > a flat plate (2 1/2 axis) part with more than 130 holes. The hole pattern > has a true position requirement of .004 (this is roughly +-.002) > diametrical. I am not certain it can do this tolerance. This will be a good > test. We will see. The idea they think (and will even try) it might do it is > to me a testament to the machine and control capability. I will report > results when I hear. > thanks > Stuart > > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Beginner question about cable lengths
2010/9/14 BRIAN GLACKIN > Question on the system mechanics. How accurate do you need to be with a > Spray system? Why spend the money for servos in this application? I would > think the accuracy levels needed for spraying would be well served (cost > and > operationally) by a stepper system? > > BG > I agree on the argument leading the question above. Servo's are fun but it's overkill for your application. Well, if you get them for free why not, if you pay - use steppers and spend the budget on the sprayer instead. But to return to the original question, I run servo's with 6 m cables with no problem. But you need good cables and good encoders. If you do have quality cables (and encoders) the cables can be much longer than that. My friend has a servo based system big enough to mill a complete boat hull, I would estimate the cable length to more than 15 m. -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Beginner question about cable lengths
On 14 September 2010 14:40, BRIAN GLACKIN wrote: > Question on the system mechanics. How accurate do you need to be with a > Spray system? Why spend the money for servos in this application? I would > think the accuracy levels needed for spraying would be well served (cost and > operationally) by a stepper system? I can imagine that rather high speed and acceleration might be required? -- atp -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] FF0, FF1, FF2
On 14 September 2010 14:34, Igor Chudov wrote: > Could someone explain what are FF0, FF1 and FF2 parameters pertaining > to tuning a servo loop? Given a commanded value "C" and a measured value "M", the output of the PID is: P * (M-C) + I * (integral.dt)(M-C) + D * d(M-C)/dt + FF0 * C + FF1 * dC/dt + FF2 * s2C/dt2. So, the PID parameters control the response of the controller to the error between commanded and actual, and the FF parameters control the response to the actual input. PID can be considered to be the "closed loop" part of the control, and the FF values are open loo, sometimes called "precontrol" As a random example, if you wanted to control spindle speed and knew that your VFD was 2V / 1000rpm then you could use purely FF0 with a value of 0.002 to run completely open loop. You might then add a little bit of I on top to take out the steady-state error if the response was not totally linear. Whether you want an FF term and which one to use depends on the physical relationship between the inputs and outputs. The example above would not work at all well if you were trying to control for spindle position rather than speed. -- atp -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Beginner question about cable lengths
Question on the system mechanics. How accurate do you need to be with a Spray system? Why spend the money for servos in this application? I would think the accuracy levels needed for spraying would be well served (cost and operationally) by a stepper system? BG On Tue, Sep 14, 2010 at 9:23 AM, Andy Pugh wrote: > On 14 September 2010 13:20, Kai Schaeffer wrote: > > > The 7i43 supports the USB port, but there I see some > > problems with the realtime, right? > > The USB port is simply not supported by the HAL driver, so can't be > used with EMC2, even if it was a good idea. > > -- > atp > > > -- > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] FF0, FF1, FF2
Guys, honest, I did look for explanations and did not find enough. Could someone explain what are FF0, FF1 and FF2 parameters pertaining to tuning a servo loop? Thanks - Igor -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Beginner question about cable lengths
On 14 September 2010 13:20, Kai Schaeffer wrote: > The 7i43 supports the USB port, but there I see some > problems with the realtime, right? The USB port is simply not supported by the HAL driver, so can't be used with EMC2, even if it was a good idea. -- atp -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Servos cannot calm down -- maybe I should go away from velocity mode in amplifiers?
Igor, My servo drives are Yaskawa and it is my understanding that they close the speed and current loops, and EMC2 closes the position loop. It is important that the outside loop (position) be at least, if not more responsive, than the middle loop (speed). Maybe my settings will help you: EMC2: Max Velocity = .5 Max Acceleration = 10. P = 280 I = 3.5 D = .25 FF0 = .25 Yaskawa: Cn-03 Speed Reference Gain = 1500 AutoTune Rigidity = 4 Cn-04 Speed Loop Gain = 165 Cn-05 Speed Loop Integration Time Constant = 22 Cn- 17 Torque Reference Filter Time Constant = 4 Also, when servo tuning use the maximum velocity and view the velocity profile on Halscope. It took me many, many tries to get these numbers . . . like Las Vegas! Good luck. -Original Message- From: Igor Chudov [mailto:ichu...@gmail.com] Sent: Monday, September 13, 2010 9:37 AM To: Enhanced Machine Controller (EMC) Subject: [Emc-users] Servos cannot calm down -- maybe I should go away from velocity mode in amplifiers? I posted a message to this list that my servo motors cannot calm down after a motion. Right now my amplifiers are set to velocity mode and I use a tachometer for velocity feedback. So, the amps themselves have a velocity loop that they close. There is essentially two loops per axis, one in EMC2 and one in the amplifier. Unfortunately, my efforts to tune PID to calm the mill down, have not been successful. If I turn down the gain parameters, the mill starts getting following errors, if I turn them up, the motors have hard times calming down. If, when the mill cannot calm down, I hit F2 (which for me inhibits the amps), and then F2 again, the bothersome buzzing stops. I am now thinking that I should reconsider my entire approach and use a different mode to avoid two loops per axis. My amplifiers offer the following modes: 1) Velocity (tachometer) mode, which is the current setting 2) Current or Torque mode (amplifier controls torque/current) 3) Voltage mode (amplifier maintains voltage) 4) IR compensation (not sure what it is exactly, probably compensated for resistance losses in windings). So... Would you think that I should switch to, say, torque mode or voltage mode? Any thoughts? - Igor -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users This communication is for the use of the intended recipient only. It may contain information that is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended recipient of this communication, the disclosure, copying, distribution or use hereof is prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please advise me by return e-mail or by telephone and then delete it immediately. -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Beginner question about cable lengths
Hi everyone, We are planing a spray system on a X-Y-table and want to control it with EMC. We want to use servo motors. When I see it right a common setup is to use for instance a Mesa 5i20 board and a 7i30 H-bridge. My question is now: what cable lengths are possible. I guess the H-bridge should be close to the I/O card i.e. PC. So I have a long cable between the H-bridge and the motors. What lengths are possible there? Just a thought I had: wouldn't it be a good idea to bring the H-bridge close to the motors? Then you need a different link between the I/O card and H-bridge. The 7i43 supports the USB port, but there I see some problems with the realtime, right? But what about the 5i21 I/O with a 8i20 card and a serial RS-422 link between them? I know, it's not support at the moment, but is it possible in general? Or is there something I miss? Regards, Kai -- Schaeffer AG Dipl.-Phys. Kai Schaeffer Vorstand Nahmitzer Damm 32 Tel. +49-30-8058695-25 12277 Berlin FAX: +49-30-8058695-33 http://www.schaeffer-ag.de HRB 93611 B, Amtsgericht Berlin Charlottenburg Vorstand: Jörg Schaeffer, Kai Schaeffer Aufsichtsrat: Dieter Kersten (Vorsitzender) -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
Hi, The shop is using the machine and beginning to trust it. They are running a flat plate (2 1/2 axis) part with more than 130 holes. The hole pattern has a true position requirement of .004 (this is roughly +-.002) diametrical. I am not certain it can do this tolerance. This will be a good test. We will see. The idea they think (and will even try) it might do it is to me a testament to the machine and control capability. I will report results when I hear. thanks Stuart -- dos centavos -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
Yeah! At the distance shots, that thing always reminds me of a big old predator, slowly looking over and pondering it's next meal... Nice toyl Stuart. mark On 09/14/2010 06:17 AM, Daniel Goller wrote: >> EMC2 is very capable of controlling a 5-axis mill. >> I was rather impressed by this demonstration of it: >> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn1bJ3YAQdI >> (At the half-way point you get to see the whole machine, it is worth the >> wait) >> > > Most impressive video, amazes me every time. > > -- > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
> EMC2 is very capable of controlling a 5-axis mill. > I was rather impressed by this demonstration of it: > http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn1bJ3YAQdI > (At the half-way point you get to see the whole machine, it is worth the wait) Most impressive video, amazes me every time. -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Problems with Live CD
Trying to test the new Live CD. Booted up the CD, and it got to the point where I had a desktop, sorta. No bottom bar where I can minimize windows and then click on them to return to the desktop, menu bar was all gorked up. A whole bunch of error windows saying this and that couldn't be started because user didn't exist and so on and so forth. Tried to start up the latency test, would get the little spinning dial for a moment then nothing. Tried to start EMC, got the splash screen, the menu chooser for axis and the other displays, then an error window pops up showing the same problem Gene had with the full install with the "APIC CONFIGURED BUT NOT AVAILABLE/ENABLED" and numerous rtapi errors. I've not loaded the new OS, just running off the CD. This is on an AMD Athlon system, 1 Gig memory. Works fine with 8.04 and the current EMC2 release. Just wanted to see if my jitter improved running the newer 10.04 version of Ubuntu. Mark -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
On 14 September 2010 08:29, Youda He wrote: > just wonder if EMC can control 5 Axis mills. If not can someone > recommend a good software to drive the mill? EMC2 is very capable of controlling a 5-axis mill. I was rather impressed by this demonstration of it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Nn1bJ3YAQdI (At the half-way point you get to see the whole machine, it is worth the wait) -- atp -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] AXIS to close open "Tool Change" popup
Hi On my lathe, I have completely changed the tool change behaviour, removed the AXIS dialog from the module and just implemented tool number updating via AXIS. In doing so I found that the tool change dialog is displayed by hal_manualtoolchange, which is a python module and as such is directly editable within the EMC file tree. It uses TKInter libraries and looks like TkInter dialogs just need :- 'dialogname'.initial_focus.focus_set() and 'dialogname'.grab_set() to grab focus and become modal dialogs. I'll try this on my small mill when I get a chance, but if anyone else gets there first, happy hacking Schooner -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
Re: [Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
of course emc2 can control 5axis machine.By the way,you may use pc parport or a motion control card to finish your job . 2010/9/14 Youda He > Hi, > > We are planning to built/buy 5 Axis mills for making some art > pieces, we will using laser scanner to scan the original in clay, then > carve the piece in some stone or wood. The mill will be 5 axis one, > just wonder if EMC can control 5 Axis mills. If not can someone > recommend a good software to drive the mill? > > Thanks. > > -- Youda > > > -- > Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances > and start using them to simplify application deployment and > accelerate your shift to cloud computing. > http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev > ___ > Emc-users mailing list > Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users > -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
[Emc-users] Can EMC control 5 axis mill?
Hi, We are planning to built/buy 5 Axis mills for making some art pieces, we will using laser scanner to scan the original in clay, then carve the piece in some stone or wood. The mill will be 5 axis one, just wonder if EMC can control 5 Axis mills. If not can someone recommend a good software to drive the mill? Thanks. -- Youda -- Start uncovering the many advantages of virtual appliances and start using them to simplify application deployment and accelerate your shift to cloud computing. http://p.sf.net/sfu/novell-sfdev2dev ___ Emc-users mailing list Emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
