Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 08 February 2016 14:21:35 Ed wrote:

> Rifled Breech Loader

Thanks Ed. Educational reading to be sure.

Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these? (Cannon, techical not for problem with neighbours)

[Ed]

On 02/08/2016 01:56 PM, Nicklas Karlsson wrote:
 Screwed breeches of the Welin or de Bange type are only used with
 bagged charge guns. They both use a de Bange obturator for sealing
 whereas a brass-case gun used the case for obturation.
 This might mean they need no lead, but the pictures seem to indicate
 one.
>> Krupp sometimes used the Welin style interrupted thread with the Elswick
>> cone for a quicker action. It is easy to fire 15 rounds per minute.
> I would guess 15 rounds per minute is for sliding block and a queue of 
> personel inserting ammunition is needed to get the 15 rounds per minute.
>
No, this is a screw breech. We have rapped off 10 rounds in 30 seconds 
using 3 people when firing blanks at the Independence Day fireworks. 
When firing live rounds we take our time.

For a sliding block breech with auto eject and auto close you can get up 
near 30 rounds per minute

Ed.


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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these? (Cannon, techical not for problem with neighbours)

[Nicklas Karlsson]

> >> Screwed breeches of the Welin or de Bange type are only used with
> >> bagged charge guns. They both use a de Bange obturator for sealing
> >> whereas a brass-case gun used the case for obturation.
> >> This might mean they need no lead, but the pictures seem to indicate
> >> one.
> 
> Krupp sometimes used the Welin style interrupted thread with the Elswick 
> cone for a quicker action. It is easy to fire 15 rounds per minute.

I would guess 15 rounds per minute is for sliding block and a queue of personel 
inserting ammunition is needed to get the 15 rounds per minute.

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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Ed]

On 02/08/2016 11:14 AM, Gene Heskett wrote:
> On Monday 08 February 2016 11:23:58 andy pugh wrote:
>
>> On 8 February 2016 at 16:12, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>>> One question remains:  Does the thread even have to have a spiral
>>> component, eg does it need to actually advance into the hole as it
>>> turns?  Common sense says it should, in order to achieve a gas tight
>>> seal against a shoulder at the bottom of the bore.  OTOH, with a
>>> shell casing supplying the breach seal as modern bolt rifles do, if
>>> the headspace when closed is tight enough to prevent a casing head
>>> separation, the need for the spiraling thread is removed.

The Krupp I restored has no lead to the "thread" of the breech block, it 
is a cartridge gun so we had to maintain headspace when refurbishing it.




>> Screwed breeches of the Welin or de Bange type are only used with
>> bagged charge guns. They both use a de Bange obturator for sealing
>> whereas a brass-case gun used the case for obturation.
>> This might mean they need no lead, but the pictures seem to indicate
>> one.

Krupp sometimes used the Welin style interrupted thread with the Elswick 
cone for a quicker action. It is easy to fire 15 rounds per minute.



> That was the impression I came away with.  But explain the De Bange or
> Welin seal please.
>
Search on Wikipedia for "Rifled Breech Loader" for a look at early 
breech loader history and types.

Ed.


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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 08 February 2016 11:23:58 andy pugh wrote:

> On 8 February 2016 at 16:12, Gene Heskett  wrote:
> > One question remains:  Does the thread even have to have a spiral
> > component, eg does it need to actually advance into the hole as it
> > turns?  Common sense says it should, in order to achieve a gas tight
> > seal against a shoulder at the bottom of the bore.  OTOH, with a
> > shell casing supplying the breach seal as modern bolt rifles do, if
> > the headspace when closed is tight enough to prevent a casing head
> > separation, the need for the spiraling thread is removed.
>
> Screwed breeches of the Welin or de Bange type are only used with
> bagged charge guns. They both use a de Bange obturator for sealing
> whereas a brass-case gun used the case for obturation.
> This might mean they need no lead, but the pictures seem to indicate
> one.

That was the impression I came away with.  But explain the De Bange or 
Welin seal please.

I am reasonable familiar with the seal method used in the front loading 
BP rifles asd I have a couple, and have read of the disastrous blowups 
that have occured in one makers version of a BP inline ignited rifle, 
along with the manufacturing shortcut that lead to several blowups.  One 
such blowup was close to lethal as he was lucky to be only a few minutes 
from the ER door, or he would have bled out.

For exactly that reason, gas cutting at the seal face of the breech plug 
to barrel recess shoulder, I consider either of my BP rifles to have a 
lifetime of 500 or fewer shots unless a reliable method of machining the 
gas cutting grooves back out of the sealing stopper shoulder in the 
barrel that the breech plug seats against.  No amounty of replacing the 
breech plug when it can be seen to be cut will suffice to restore the 
seal indefinitely. Just like a leaky faucet, the seat MUST be recut 
smooth from time to time.

The only way it seems to me, is to use a pipe thread, and no one to my 
knowledge is doing that. Perhaps it has a slightly different failure 
mechanism that is just as dangerous when the pressures exceed 20k psi?  
IDK.



Cheers, Gene Heskett
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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[andy pugh]

On 8 February 2016 at 16:12, Gene Heskett  wrote:
>
> One question remains:  Does the thread even have to have a spiral
> component, eg does it need to actually advance into the hole as it
> turns?  Common sense says it should, in order to achieve a gas tight
> seal against a shoulder at the bottom of the bore.  OTOH, with a shell
> casing supplying the breach seal as modern bolt rifles do, if the
> headspace when closed is tight enough to prevent a casing head
> separation, the need for the spiraling thread is removed.

Screwed breeches of the Welin or de Bange type are only used with
bagged charge guns. They both use a de Bange obturator for sealing
whereas a brass-case gun used the case for obturation.
This might mean they need no lead, but the pictures seem to indicate one.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Gene Heskett]

On Monday 08 February 2016 08:39:10 Marcus Bowman wrote:

> On 8 Feb 2016, at 12:49, Peter Blodow wrote:
> > In other words, you pretend to cut a left-hand thread but have the
> > machine run in reverse so it turns out right hand?
> > Peter Blodow
>
> Yes; kind of I prefer to think of it as cutting a right hand
> thread upside down (or is that inside out?). There are four factors:
> spindle speed, direction of feed, tool upright or inverted, and tool
> facing the front wall or the rear wall. Where the tool must traverse
> out of the hole and the blind end is at the spindle end, the ones that
> work for me are:
> spindle reversed and feed towards the tailstock; and
> [tool upright, facing the front] or [tool inverted, facing the rear]
>
> If you use a thread mill it just takes the place of the single point
> tool, but mills (or flycuts, essentially) rather than forming the
> flanks with a stationary tool. Unless you have the kind of giant tool
> arrangement mentioned in John Thornton's post. The mind boggles.
>
> Marcus

Mine did, looking at that pix with the stepped thread diameters. Where 
the rotation to disengage was like 45 degrees to gain removal clearance, 
but obviously had nearly 100% thread engagement when inserted and turned 
to hit the stops. The only way I can visualize that would be by 
broaching the stop shoulders, then cutting in reverse, with the tool 
facing to the back wall and both the broach width and the tools vertical 
measurement such that it could be brought into contact with the bottom 
of the broach cut.  But unless all the various sizes and depths of 
broaching was done prior to starting the threading, I haven't a clue 
what would be done with the chip at the end of each segment cut.

I seems to me the best way to do the broaching and boring would be on a 
shaper with a rotating workpiece holder.  By that means it seems to me 
one could get an 85 to 90% thread engagement.

But even then I'm not convinced I'd want the job of writing the gcode for 
either machine.  The spindle it seems must have both a super low gear 
ratio, and an encoder measuring its rotation in arc-seconds.

One question remains:  Does the thread even have to have a spiral 
component, eg does it need to actually advance into the hole as it 
turns?  Common sense says it should, in order to achieve a gas tight 
seal against a shoulder at the bottom of the bore.  OTOH, with a shell 
casing supplying the breach seal as modern bolt rifles do, if the 
headspace when closed is tight enough to prevent a casing head 
separation, the need for the spiraling thread is removed.  I have rifles 
in the cabinet of either persuasion, and most of the more modern rifles 
have zero spiral to the lugs as they rotate into engagement with the 
action. 

I changed a remi 788 in 22-250 action out for a Howa 1500 a few years 
ago, and there was just enough of a headspace problem that feeding it 
shells loaded for the remi that I was forced to stone a ramp of about 5 
thou on the leading edge of the lugs  so that a case whose shoulder had 
been stretched forward to fit the remi's extremely sloppy chambering, 
could with quite a bit of effort on the bolt handle, be crushed a thou 
or so as the bolt was closed.  It could then be fired normally and IIRC 
I turned the die in another 2 degrees to push the shoulder back where it 
belonged for the next reload.

Provided I couldn't detect a groove from previous stretching in the 
remi's action with a bent paper clip inserted. Case to scrap bin in that 
event of course.  That stretching, and the short case life of only 3 to 
4 reloads was the reason the remi action was removed from my cabinet. 
With the locking lugs at the rear of the bolt and in the back ring of 
the action, case stretch was nominally 13 thou from pulling the trigger, 
and because the remi chamber was so fat & sloppy, a std Bonanza Bench 
Rest Coax die, stretched it another 18 thou in bringing it back down in 
diameter to fit a std SAAMI chamber. The brass has to go someplace...

OTOH, a 50 year older P17 can happily crush a case thats 10 thou long as 
it closes, there is that much of a ramp on the lugs. I  haven't pushed a 
shoulder back it the about 10k rounds I've fed it in the last 50 years.  
And cases last until the primer pockets get sloppy, 20 to 40 reloads per 
case, whats not to love about that?  Since its chambered for the 40 
degree shoulder angle of the P.O.Ackley chamber, you KNOW from the 
presses complaints when you are pushing the shoulder back.

That experince with the 788 was the end of me being a fan of remi, that 
was handed back to remi with a fat chamber complaint when it had less 
than 40 rounds of factory ammo fired on it, and remi said it was within 
specs & refused to rebarrel it. It was an 8 or 12 groove "micro-groove" 
barrel, and with reloads going 200 fps slower than factory, it put the 
first bullet thru the target sideways at about 350 rounds. remi said 
reloads, no warranty, so I had a Shile

Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Marcus Bowman]

On 8 Feb 2016, at 12:49, Peter Blodow wrote:

> In other words, you pretend to cut a left-hand thread but have the 
> machine run in reverse so it turns out right hand?
> Peter Blodow
> 
Yes; kind of I prefer to think of it as cutting a right hand thread upside 
down (or is that inside out?).
There are four factors:
spindle speed, direction of feed, tool upright or inverted, and tool facing the 
front wall or the rear wall.
Where the tool must traverse out of the hole and the blind end is at the 
spindle end,
the ones that work for me are:
spindle reversed and feed towards the tailstock; and
[tool upright, facing the front] or [tool inverted, facing the rear]

If you use a thread mill it just takes the place of the single point tool, but 
mills (or flycuts, essentially) rather than forming the flanks with a 
stationary tool. Unless you have the kind of giant tool arrangement mentioned 
in John Thornton's post. The mind boggles.

Marcus


> Am 08.02.2016 11:42, schrieb Marcus Bowman:
>> On 8 Feb 2016, at 10:04, andy pugh wrote:
>> 
>>> On 7 February 2016 at 23:37, Marcus Bowman
>>>  wrote:
>>> 
 Easy. mount the tool upside down, and start at the blind bottom.
>>> Sorry, I am not quite understanding your description?
>>> 
>> Yes; apologies; my rather quick response was a bit cryptic...
>> 
>> For an internal right-hand thread, the problem is often that the tool feeds 
>> into the hole from the right, and bumps into the bottom of the hole. It 
>> would be the same for an external thread bumping into a shoulder on the left.
>> Machine the hole to the ID for the minor diameter of the internal thread, 
>> then create a clearance groove of 1 pitch width, and just deeper than the 
>> thread height, at the bottom of the hole. That blind bottom still a problem 
>> if your reactions are as slow as mine, so, unless you have 
>> auto-disengagement for the leadscrew, avoid the problem by cutting the 
>> thread from left to right, starting with the tool in the clearance groove, 
>> applying a cut, and feeding outwards into fresh air.
>> Run the spindle in reverse.
>> The tool can either be mounted against the front wall, upright; or can be 
>> mounted against the rear wall, but inverted.
>> (I think I have those the right way around...)
>> I've used this method on both internal and external threads, with front and 
>> rear toolposts and with the tools the right way up or upside down, to suit 
>> the directions of cut,and it works a treat. The key is to cut away from the 
>> blind end or the shoulder (and to take care with spindle direction and tool 
>> orientation, both of which can cause local overheating of the brain's 
>> visualisation processing area).
>> All much easier with CNC I dare say...
>> 
>> Marcus
>> 
>>> -- 
>>> atp
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>>> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>>> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Peter Blodow]

In other words, you pretend to cut a left-hand thread but have the 
machine run in reverse so it turns out right hand?
Peter Blodow

Am 08.02.2016 11:42, schrieb Marcus Bowman:
> On 8 Feb 2016, at 10:04, andy pugh wrote:
>
>> On 7 February 2016 at 23:37, Marcus Bowman
>>  wrote:
>>
>>> Easy. mount the tool upside down, and start at the blind bottom.
>> Sorry, I am not quite understanding your description?
>>
> Yes; apologies; my rather quick response was a bit cryptic...
>
> For an internal right-hand thread, the problem is often that the tool feeds 
> into the hole from the right, and bumps into the bottom of the hole. It would 
> be the same for an external thread bumping into a shoulder on the left.
> Machine the hole to the ID for the minor diameter of the internal thread, 
> then create a clearance groove of 1 pitch width, and just deeper than the 
> thread height, at the bottom of the hole. That blind bottom still a problem 
> if your reactions are as slow as mine, so, unless you have auto-disengagement 
> for the leadscrew, avoid the problem by cutting the thread from left to 
> right, starting with the tool in the clearance groove, applying a cut, and 
> feeding outwards into fresh air.
> Run the spindle in reverse.
> The tool can either be mounted against the front wall, upright; or can be 
> mounted against the rear wall, but inverted.
> (I think I have those the right way around...)
> I've used this method on both internal and external threads, with front and 
> rear toolposts and with the tools the right way up or upside down, to suit 
> the directions of cut,and it works a treat. The key is to cut away from the 
> blind end or the shoulder (and to take care with spindle direction and tool 
> orientation, both of which can cause local overheating of the brain's 
> visualisation processing area).
> All much easier with CNC I dare say...
>
> Marcus
>
>> -- 
>> atp
>> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
>> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>>
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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[John Figie]

On Feb 8, 2016 5:02 AM, "andy pugh"  wrote:
>
> On 8 February 2016 at 10:42, Marcus Bowman
>  wrote:
> > For an internal right-hand thread, the problem is often that the tool
feeds into the hole from the right, and bumps into the bottom of the hole.
It would be the same for an external thread bumping into a shoulder on the
left.
>
> Ah, OK. That seems to be a solution to a completely different problem.
>
> Did you look at the pictures of the Wellin breech?
>
> The picture I originally posted didn't even seem to have the relief
> groove shown in the later images linked to.

If you zoom in on the original posted picture it looks like there is a
relief on both the internal and external parts.  Anyway, these are very
interesting.

>
> --
> atp
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[John Thornton]

When I worked in the shipyard we cut the gun mounts with pretty 
conventional home made boring bars made out of H beams and other stuff 
with a star wheel on the outside that hit a stob welded to the wall to 
increment the tool out. It was turned by a gear motor attached to the 
ceiling. Took about 9 hours to make a pass. The shaft alley was bored 
with a giant boring bar that turned out chips as big as your finger. Of 
course all of this had to be done after all the welding was done.

JT

On 2/7/2016 2:15 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welin_breech_block#/media/File:Sailor_looking_into_the_breech_of_16_inch_gun_aboard_USS_Alabama_(BB-60).jpg
>
> I suspect an extremely specialised machine for the internal version.
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[andy pugh]

On 8 February 2016 at 10:42, Marcus Bowman
 wrote:
> For an internal right-hand thread, the problem is often that the tool feeds 
> into the hole from the right, and bumps into the bottom of the hole. It would 
> be the same for an external thread bumping into a shoulder on the left.

Ah, OK. That seems to be a solution to a completely different problem.

Did you look at the pictures of the Wellin breech?

The picture I originally posted didn't even seem to have the relief
groove shown in the later images linked to.

-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Marcus Bowman]

On 8 Feb 2016, at 10:04, andy pugh wrote:

> On 7 February 2016 at 23:37, Marcus Bowman
>  wrote:
> 
>> Easy. mount the tool upside down, and start at the blind bottom.
> 
> Sorry, I am not quite understanding your description?
> 

Yes; apologies; my rather quick response was a bit cryptic...

For an internal right-hand thread, the problem is often that the tool feeds 
into the hole from the right, and bumps into the bottom of the hole. It would 
be the same for an external thread bumping into a shoulder on the left. 
Machine the hole to the ID for the minor diameter of the internal thread, then 
create a clearance groove of 1 pitch width, and just deeper than the thread 
height, at the bottom of the hole. That blind bottom still a problem if your 
reactions are as slow as mine, so, unless you have auto-disengagement for the 
leadscrew, avoid the problem by cutting the thread from left to right, starting 
with the tool in the clearance groove, applying a cut, and feeding outwards 
into fresh air.
Run the spindle in reverse.
The tool can either be mounted against the front wall, upright; or can be 
mounted against the rear wall, but inverted.
(I think I have those the right way around...)
I've used this method on both internal and external threads, with front and 
rear toolposts and with the tools the right way up or upside down, to suit the 
directions of cut,and it works a treat. The key is to cut away from the blind 
end or the shoulder (and to take care with spindle direction and tool 
orientation, both of which can cause local overheating of the brain's 
visualisation processing area).
All much easier with CNC I dare say...

Marcus

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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[andy pugh]

On 7 February 2016 at 23:37, Marcus Bowman
 wrote:

> Easy. mount the tool upside down, and start at the blind bottom.

Sorry, I am not quite understanding your description?

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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Marcus Bowman]

On 7 Feb 2016, at 22:04, Ken Strauss wrote:

> There was an article in Model Engineer Magazine (British publication) on
> doing it at home. See Volume 176, Issue 4017, page 464. I have a scan of the
> article but it is too large to post.
> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: John Kasunich [mailto:jmkasun...@fastmail.fm]
>> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 4:47 PM
>> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
>> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?
>> 
>> A post on this page:
>> http://yarchive.net/metal/artillery_thread.html
>> 
>> says:
>> 
>> In full size practice the male and female threads are SCREWCUT (not
> Milled)
>> on specially adapted, relieving lathes with an interrupted indexing
> motion.
>> This usually takes the form of a special, heavy duty, "geneva" type
> motion.
>> Contemporary accounts speak of "great crashings and bangings and sudden
>> shuddering stops" accompanied by a tool point that moves in and out, under
>> cam control, to cut the various thread diameters.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016, at 04:35 PM, John Kasunich wrote:
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016, at 04:18 PM, andy pugh wrote:
>>>> Maybe I should have been more explicit about the question...
>>>> 
>>>> How do you machine an internal part-thread that ends hard against a
>> shoulder?

Easy. mount the tool upside down, and start at the blind bottom. A relief 
groove with a width of of 1 thread pitch is helpful but not absolutely 
necessary. Works a treat.
A second way is to use a thread mill (and I mean a proper thread milling 
machine) and mill the thread starting at the blind bottom. I've done it 
externally, using both methods, and internally using the single point tool, but 
there is no reason why the thread mill would not work. My own thread mill would 
probably need an extended shaft to reach inside a deep hole, and the cutter 
would need a minimum diameter of around 50mm (2inches) to get inside the hole.
Photo of my home-made thread mill here:
http://www.screwcutting.com/The%20Book/Chapters/chapter10.html

Marcus

>>>> 
>>> 
>>> Very carefully :-)
>>> 
>>> This pic
>>> http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/PAGE_56_Figure_5B10_C.JPG
>>> shows that there was a bit of a relief groove.  Cutting speeds in
>>> those days were slower (no carbide).  They may have simply run the
>>> parts slow enough that a rapid-retract toolholder could pull clear in
>>> the time it took to travel the width of that groove.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>>  John Kasunich
>>>  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
>>> 
>>> --
>>> 
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>> 
>> 
>> --
>>  John Kasunich
>>  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
>> 
>> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Ed]

On 02/07/2016 02:15 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welin_breech_block#/media/File:Sailor_looking_into_the_breech_of_16_inch_gun_aboard_USS_Alabama_(BB-60).jpg
>
> I suspect an extremely specialised machine for the internal version.
>
I restored a 75mm Krupp that had a similar stepped cut to the breach. 
The Krupp was not a true thread as the grooves had no lead and the 
breach block was tapered so that you did not have to retract the breach 
block after unlocking, you simply swung the block out of the way to 
eject and reload. In this case a rotary shaper would be the handiest 
tool to cut the grooves.

Ed.


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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Stuart Stevenson]

Andy,
Now I see what you are asking.
It would be educational to look at the part to see what the tooling marks
show.
You may be able to identify a pattern to know how they were cut.

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 3:18 PM, andy pugh  wrote:

> Maybe I should have been more explicit about the question...
>
> How do you machine an internal part-thread that ends hard against a
> shoulder?
>
>
> --
> atp
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>
>
> --
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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Marshland Engineering]

In a shaper where the part being machined rotates. If you look closely there
is a small relief slot at the end of each thread. 


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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Ken Strauss]

There was an article in Model Engineer Magazine (British publication) on
doing it at home. See Volume 176, Issue 4017, page 464. I have a scan of the
article but it is too large to post.

> -Original Message-
> From: John Kasunich [mailto:jmkasun...@fastmail.fm]
> Sent: Sunday, February 07, 2016 4:47 PM
> To: emc-users@lists.sourceforge.net
> Subject: Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?
>
> A post on this page:
> http://yarchive.net/metal/artillery_thread.html
>
> says:
>
> In full size practice the male and female threads are SCREWCUT (not
Milled)
> on specially adapted, relieving lathes with an interrupted indexing
motion.
> This usually takes the form of a special, heavy duty, "geneva" type
motion.
> Contemporary accounts speak of "great crashings and bangings and sudden
> shuddering stops" accompanied by a tool point that moves in and out, under
> cam control, to cut the various thread diameters.
>
>
>
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016, at 04:35 PM, John Kasunich wrote:
> >
> >
> > On Sun, Feb 7, 2016, at 04:18 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> > > Maybe I should have been more explicit about the question...
> > >
> > > How do you machine an internal part-thread that ends hard against a
> shoulder?
> > >
> >
> > Very carefully :-)
> >
> > This pic
> > http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/PAGE_56_Figure_5B10_C.JPG
> > shows that there was a bit of a relief groove.  Cutting speeds in
> > those days were slower (no carbide).  They may have simply run the
> > parts slow enough that a rapid-retract toolholder could pull clear in
> > the time it took to travel the width of that groove.
> >
> >
> >
> >   John Kasunich
> >   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
> >
> > --
> > 
> > Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
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>
> --
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>   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
>
>

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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[John Kasunich]

A post on this page:
http://yarchive.net/metal/artillery_thread.html

says:

In full size practice the male and female threads are SCREWCUT (not Milled) on
specially adapted, relieving lathes with an interrupted indexing motion.  This
usually takes the form of a special, heavy duty, "geneva" type motion.
Contemporary accounts speak of "great crashings and bangings and sudden
shuddering stops" accompanied by a tool point that moves in and out, under cam
control, to cut the various thread diameters.



On Sun, Feb 7, 2016, at 04:35 PM, John Kasunich wrote:
> 
> 
> On Sun, Feb 7, 2016, at 04:18 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> > Maybe I should have been more explicit about the question...
> > 
> > How do you machine an internal part-thread that ends hard against a 
> > shoulder?
> > 
> 
> Very carefully :-)
> 
> This pic
> http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/PAGE_56_Figure_5B10_C.JPG
> shows that there was a bit of a relief groove.  Cutting speeds in those
> days were slower (no carbide).  They may have simply run the parts 
> slow enough that a rapid-retract toolholder could pull clear in the time
> it took to travel the width of that groove.
> 
> 
> 
>   John Kasunich
>   jmkasun...@fastmail.fm
> 
> --
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-- 
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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[John Kasunich]

On Sun, Feb 7, 2016, at 04:18 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> Maybe I should have been more explicit about the question...
> 
> How do you machine an internal part-thread that ends hard against a shoulder?
> 

Very carefully :-)

This pic
http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/PAGE_56_Figure_5B10_C.JPG
shows that there was a bit of a relief groove.  Cutting speeds in those
days were slower (no carbide).  They may have simply run the parts 
slow enough that a rapid-retract toolholder could pull clear in the time
it took to travel the width of that groove.



  John Kasunich
  jmkasun...@fastmail.fm

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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Jack Coats]

When in college at TAMU, the mech engr machine shop had some big
equipment.  One lathe would swing about 6' dia, and 20'+ length in the
bed plus head stock.  That was the largest engine lathe I have seen.
I never saw them use it, but it was kept in usable shape and yes, they
kept some standard tooling around for it.  Awesome equipment. (that
was in the early 1970's and it had been there for years).

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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[John Kasunich]

Considering that it was the 1940s, I'm not sure how common thread-milling was.
Plenty of room inside that breech - maybe a cam-operated "rapid retract" single 
point threading tool?

Found this page, doesn't explain how they cut the threads but does elaborate a 
bit on other construction features.
http://www.eugeneleeslover.com/USNAVY/GUN-BARL-CONSTRUCTION-1.html

A picture at the bottom hints that the female breech threads weren't cut into 
the barrel itself, but instead
were cut in a breech housing.  The barrel was attached to the housing with a 
regular (not stepped) interrupted
thread which would be much simpler to cut - probably something resembling a 
shaper to make the gaps,
then single-point it.


On Sun, Feb 7, 2016, at 03:15 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welin_breech_block#/media/File:Sailor_looking_into_the_breech_of_16_inch_gun_aboard_USS_Alabama_(BB-60).jpg
> 
> I suspect an extremely specialised machine for the internal version.
> 
> -- 
> atp
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[tom-emc]

Super sized machines are still made. IMTS (in Chicago Sept 12-16 this year) has 
had giant lathes in the past.  I was amazed at one that had what looked to be a 
railroad car axle with wheels which appeared to be turned from a single billet 
of steel (that must have been enormous!).  By the way, IMTS is worth attending 
if you are interested in machines (anyone here who isn’t :-) It is really a 
spectacle, the size and number of machines installed in McCormick Place that 
week and the $$$ spent by companies to be there.
-Tom


> On Feb 7, 2016, at 4:12 PM, Bruce Layne  wrote:
> 
> I have a friend who is a mechanical engineer at the Naval Ordnance 
> Station in Louisville.   I inquired about the machining on these big 
> naval guns, and he told me that most of the drawings are from the 1940s, 
> and in general, the machining is manual and conventional, although the 
> lathes and other machinery are super sized.  No doubt they do need to 
> make special machining tools to make some of the odder things they can't 
> make with large but otherwise conventional shop tools.
> 
> When I'm using my little lathe in my basement shop, I always keep in 
> mind the story my friend told me about one of their most experienced 
> machinists who one day, for no apparent reason, reached down inside the 
> bore of a barrel that was slowly spinning in the lathe. The rag in his 
> hand wedged and he flipped around several times before the lathe could 
> be stopped.  It didn't kill him, but it destroyed his shoulder.  
> Horrific stories like that have given me a great appreciation for the 
> hazards lurking in my own little lathe.
> 
> Many of these large naval guns are being given a new lease on life with 
> modern electronics, much as old military planes such as the B-52 keep 
> being upgraded with new electronics.
> 
> I have another friend who got a personal tour of Faxon Machining, a very 
> specialized machine shop.  They have large lathes that turn some of 
> these huge barrels for the navy.  While my friend was there, they were 
> turning what was essentially the drive shaft for a nuclear reactor.
> 
> It's humbling to see people working at such scale, but also inspiring.  
> I was a teenager visiting a friend whose dad was an engineer.  I had 
> decided to be an engineer a few years before but still didn't know much 
> about engineering.  I did know that his dad had a very nice, 
> meticulously organized and spotless machine shop in his basement, and we 
> weren't allowed to go in there.  I saw a large drawing near their front 
> door and I slipped off the rubber band, unrolled it, and sneaked a 
> peek.  For about a minute, I tried to make sense of it but I couldn't 
> determine what it represented. Then, near the bottom of the 48" X 36" 
> drawing was an object that was about 3/4" long that I recognized as a 
> railroad coal car.  My friend's dad was designing a new coal fueled 
> power plant.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> On 02/07/2016 03:15 PM, andy pugh wrote:
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welin_breech_block#/media/File:Sailor_looking_into_the_breech_of_16_inch_gun_aboard_USS_Alabama_(BB-60).jpg
>> 
>> I suspect an extremely specialised machine for the internal version.
>> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[andy pugh]

Maybe I should have been more explicit about the question...

How do you machine an internal part-thread that ends hard against a shoulder?


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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Bruce Layne]

I have a friend who is a mechanical engineer at the Naval Ordnance 
Station in Louisville.   I inquired about the machining on these big 
naval guns, and he told me that most of the drawings are from the 1940s, 
and in general, the machining is manual and conventional, although the 
lathes and other machinery are super sized.  No doubt they do need to 
make special machining tools to make some of the odder things they can't 
make with large but otherwise conventional shop tools.

When I'm using my little lathe in my basement shop, I always keep in 
mind the story my friend told me about one of their most experienced 
machinists who one day, for no apparent reason, reached down inside the 
bore of a barrel that was slowly spinning in the lathe. The rag in his 
hand wedged and he flipped around several times before the lathe could 
be stopped.  It didn't kill him, but it destroyed his shoulder.  
Horrific stories like that have given me a great appreciation for the 
hazards lurking in my own little lathe.

Many of these large naval guns are being given a new lease on life with 
modern electronics, much as old military planes such as the B-52 keep 
being upgraded with new electronics.

I have another friend who got a personal tour of Faxon Machining, a very 
specialized machine shop.  They have large lathes that turn some of 
these huge barrels for the navy.  While my friend was there, they were 
turning what was essentially the drive shaft for a nuclear reactor.

It's humbling to see people working at such scale, but also inspiring.  
I was a teenager visiting a friend whose dad was an engineer.  I had 
decided to be an engineer a few years before but still didn't know much 
about engineering.  I did know that his dad had a very nice, 
meticulously organized and spotless machine shop in his basement, and we 
weren't allowed to go in there.  I saw a large drawing near their front 
door and I slipped off the rubber band, unrolled it, and sneaked a 
peek.  For about a minute, I tried to make sense of it but I couldn't 
determine what it represented. Then, near the bottom of the 48" X 36" 
drawing was an object that was about 3/4" long that I recognized as a 
railroad coal car.  My friend's dad was designing a new coal fueled 
power plant.





On 02/07/2016 03:15 PM, andy pugh wrote:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welin_breech_block#/media/File:Sailor_looking_into_the_breech_of_16_inch_gun_aboard_USS_Alabama_(BB-60).jpg
>
> I suspect an extremely specialised machine for the internal version.
>


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Re: [Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[Stuart Stevenson]

Andy,
I saw a 60 taper machine in storage here in Wichita.
It was from an arsenal.
The machine was huge. I would think it could cut the threads with a thread
mill or single point tooling with the size of the adapter.
I had never imagined an adapter that size.
The attached picture shows a comparison between 50 taper adapters (in the
man's hand) and 60 taper adapters in the box. The picture is not of the
machine here. It is just an example I found on the internet.
The link also shows dimensions in the chart at the bottom of the page.
Large, heavy, grown  equipment.

http://parlecparts.com/pages/cat_taper_toolholders

thanks
Stuart


On Sun, Feb 7, 2016 at 2:15 PM, andy pugh  wrote:

>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welin_breech_block#/media/File:Sailor_looking_into_the_breech_of_16_inch_gun_aboard_USS_Alabama_(BB-60).jpg
>
> I suspect an extremely specialised machine for the internal version.
>
> --
> atp
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>
>
> --
> Site24x7 APM Insight: Get Deep Visibility into Application Performance
> APM + Mobile APM + RUM: Monitor 3 App instances at just $35/Month
> Monitor end-to-end web transactions and take corrective actions now
> Troubleshoot faster and improve end-user experience. Signup Now!
> http://pubads.g.doubleclick.net/gampad/clk?id=272487151&iu=/4140
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> Emc-users mailing list
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> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/emc-users
>



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[Emc-users] Any idea how they machine these?

[andy pugh]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Welin_breech_block#/media/File:Sailor_looking_into_the_breech_of_16_inch_gun_aboard_USS_Alabama_(BB-60).jpg

I suspect an extremely specialised machine for the internal version.

-- 
atp
If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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