Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Dave]

On 1/19/2013 4:22 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> Hello!
>
> Winter has arrived with temperatures below -20C, so I finally decided
> to something about inability to start up car's engine in these cold
> mornings.
> There are lots of options for auxiliary heating with fuel and
> electricity. I found on ebay a nice heater that works from fuel, but
> it costs some 600 EUR.
> I found out that my parents have installed some electrical heaters in
> several of our tractors. They are cheap (something around 70 EUR) and
> work good, but the problem is that there is no pump inside the unit,
> just heater. In tractors they are specially placed relatively low to
> the engine so that the cooling liquid flows naturally as it is heated.
> I do not think that it is possible in car, so the question is:
> Can anyone suggest a small pump, powered by AC electricity and, what
> is most important, that will work in -20C, -30C temperature? I was
> thinking about all these aquarium pumps - size is great, flow rate
> also good, but I am reserved about them working below 0C.
>
> Is there something for a reasonable price?
> Thanks in advance!
>
>
Viesturs,

I have a couple of diesel powered trucks. Most of them have the plug 
style block heaters that screw into the engine block to
keep it warm. Those work well.

I also have a semi tractor and installing a screw in block style heater 
was near impossible due to the frame around the engine.

So I installed one of these:

http://www.amazon.com/Kats-13150-Aluminum-Circulating-Heater/dp/B000BQUUR6/ref=sr_1_3?ie=UTF8&qid=1359301989&sr=8-3&keywords=engine+heater

It works really well heating up a 855 cu in / 14 liter diesel engine 
block. I have the heater mounted about in the vertical center of the 
block and it somehow "pumps" the coolant around, it is not just convection.
You can here the coolant flow, it may be a steam expansion cycle of 
something. I'm not sure, but it works very well.

I don't know if you can get full access to Amazon.com from your 
country.. if not try a proxy server here in the US to get "local" access 
and then
do a search on "engine heater". My search returned over 2000 results! 
They have every sort of engine heater imaginable listed.

Dave

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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Viesturs Lācis]

2013/1/20 andy pugh :
>
> Nearly any modern car will have provision somewhere on the engine for
> a block heater. It is also likely to be in the right place too. Have
> you looked for a manufacturer-original part?

No, I have not tried to look, because I have never heard that VW or
Audi would have such an option from manufacturer, so I did not
realize...
I just tried, but did not find anything, most probably dumb issue
between monitor and chair.

> Warm oil and warm battery are more critical for cold-start in diesel
> engines than coolant temperature.

Is it safe to warm up battery with those rubber/silicon heating pads
that are intended to be sticked to oil pan of engine?

I do agree about warm oil. The thing is that IMHO the oil between
piston and cylinder and everywhere else where friction between two
parts takes place has to be warm, not the oil in the oil panm where it
does not "work", so that is why I thought that coolant liquid heaters
are better as the liquid is circulated through all the engine block
and warms up it all.

> (One week tomorrow I am off for 2 weeks in Rovaniemi doing cold
> climate development, though my particular interest is in cabin heater
> and oil pump performance rather than cold start)

Any chance to visit Santa's workshop and get a small preview for next
Christmas presents? :))

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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[andy pugh]

On 21 January 2013 00:09, Sven Wesley  wrote:
> My VW Touran has a Webasto without a pump, they have a burner as standard
> equipment because the TDI's doesn't come up in temp without it when it's
> cold outside

This is actually the issue that is taking up most of my time at the
moment. The new Euro6 engines are even worse. At -30 you can drive for
an hour and still have -5C air coming out of the vents.
(This is without the 2kW of electrical element in the cabin heater,
though, as those prototypes didn't have that, and it is standard fit)

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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Peter Loron]

We just had a cheap add-on mains-powered block heater (inline with the cooling 
system, as I recall) in our gas cars when we lived in upstate New York. -20C 
was common in the winter.

-Pete

On Jan 20, 2013, at 4:09 PM, Sven Wesley  wrote:

> 2013/1/20 andy pugh 
> 
>> Nearly any modern car will have provision somewhere on the engine for
>> a block heater. It is also likely to be in the right place too. Have
>> you looked for a manufacturer-original part?
>> 
> 
> Nearly every engine ever built sinces the 60's, I would say. Even my Volvo
> Amazon had one, and they really were built during the 60's.
> 
> Webastos have a pump if they're supposed to heat up the coupe too and not
> only the engine.
> My VW Touran has a Webasto without a pump, they have a burner as standard
> equipment because the TDI's doesn't come up in temp without it when it's
> cold outside and as an extra you can buy a timer or remote for preheating.
> My brother's Volvo XC60 has a Webasto with pump, while he gets a cozy seat
> I get a frost free wind shield at its best. On the other hand, the car is
> at working temp after one or two minutes of driving if the heater was on.
> 
> Like Andy says, what's your car? There will be a heater.
> http://www.defa.com/en/automotive/warmup/find_your_engine_heater/
> 
> /S
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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Przemek Klosowski]

On Sat, Jan 19, 2013 at 4:22 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:

> Winter has arrived with temperatures below -20C, so I finally decided
> to something about inability to start up car's engine in these cold
> mornings.
> There are lots of options for auxiliary heating with fuel and
> electricity. I found on ebay a nice heater that works from fuel, but
> it costs some 600 EUR.
>

The simplest solution is an incandescent shop light on an extension cord
that you just drop into the  engine compartment and keep on through the
night. 60W bulb should provide enough heat. Of course  CFL or LED bulbs
aren't hot enough to work...
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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Sven Wesley]

2013/1/20 andy pugh 

> Nearly any modern car will have provision somewhere on the engine for
> a block heater. It is also likely to be in the right place too. Have
> you looked for a manufacturer-original part?
>

Nearly every engine ever built sinces the 60's, I would say. Even my Volvo
Amazon had one, and they really were built during the 60's.

Webastos have a pump if they're supposed to heat up the coupe too and not
only the engine.
My VW Touran has a Webasto without a pump, they have a burner as standard
equipment because the TDI's doesn't come up in temp without it when it's
cold outside and as an extra you can buy a timer or remote for preheating.
My brother's Volvo XC60 has a Webasto with pump, while he gets a cozy seat
I get a frost free wind shield at its best. On the other hand, the car is
at working temp after one or two minutes of driving if the heater was on.

Like Andy says, what's your car? There will be a heater.
http://www.defa.com/en/automotive/warmup/find_your_engine_heater/

/S
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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[andy pugh]

On 19 January 2013 21:22, Viesturs Lācis  wrote:

> There are lots of options for auxiliary heating with fuel and
> electricity.

Strangely enough, despite living somewhere where -5C is unusually
cold, I know quite a bit about this subject.

Nearly any modern car will have provision somewhere on the engine for
a block heater. It is also likely to be in the right place too. Have
you looked for a manufacturer-original part?

There is no pump with an electrical block heater.

Fuel-fired heaters tend to have a pump (Webasto ones, for example). As
you have spotted, these are not cheap.

Warm oil and warm battery are more critical for cold-start in diesel
engines than coolant temperature.

(One week tomorrow I am off for 2 weeks in Rovaniemi doing cold
climate development, though my particular interest is in cabin heater
and oil pump performance rather than cold start)

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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Sven Wesley]

2013/1/20 Viesturs Lācis 

> Thank You, guys, for the answers!
>
> 2013/1/20 Sven Wesley :
> > All my cars have, and all my former cars had, electrical heaters. You
> don't
> > need a pump.
> > There are universal models that sits in the cooler hose that works
> > flawlessly.
>
> Well, there has to be something that makes the fluid to circulate.
> Either it is a pump, which allows to place the heater anywhere with
> respect to motor. Or let the fluid circulate naturally, based on the
> fact that warmer liquid has smaller density so it moves up... But this
> approach requires to position the heater carefully with the motor
> block. It will not just work anywhere...
>
> I suspect that Your electrical heating units have a pump already built
> in...
>
>
No, THERE IS NO EXTRA PUMP. Ever.

I have a brand new Toyota with a block heater. Guess what?
T.h.e.r.e. .i.s. .n.o. .p.u.m.p.

Heat transports itself, either via the water or the engine block. If I
leave the heater on the wind shield starts to defrost. Why? Because hot
water moves. And no, there's no pump. ;)

/S
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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Gene Heskett]

On Sunday 20 January 2013 12:23:36 Viesturs Lācis did opine:
Message additions Copyright Sunday 20 January 2013 by Gene Heskett

> Thank You, guys, for the answers!
> 
> 2013/1/20 Sven Wesley :
> > All my cars have, and all my former cars had, electrical heaters. You
> > don't need a pump.
> > There are universal models that sits in the cooler hose that works
> > flawlessly.
> 
> Well, there has to be something that makes the fluid to circulate.
> Either it is a pump, which allows to place the heater anywhere with
> respect to motor. Or let the fluid circulate naturally, based on the
> fact that warmer liquid has smaller density so it moves up... But this
> approach requires to position the heater carefully with the motor
> block. It will not just work anywhere...
> 
> I suspect that Your electrical heating units have a pump already built
> in...
> 
> > There's a silicone/rubber plate model nowadays that you glue directly
> > onto the oil pan that works pretty well too. Some guys use it to
> > pre-heat the oil reservoir on hydraulic machines. I think the price
> > is 50-70 Euro.
> 
> Yes, I have heard about them and we discussed them also with dad
> yesterday as he mentioned that their price also is good, but since I
> live in countryside there are several reasons I am suspicious about:
> 1) it should be attached to oil pan, which is at the very bottom of the
> motor; do I understand correctly that it actually requires also some
> protective shield to prevent any damage by things on the road? Like
> pieces of snow and ice that I can hear to hit the bottom of car? The
> road passing by my house is not cleaned within an hour or so after a
> snowfall;
> 2) IMHO the oil pan definitely is subject to get splashes of water from
> wheels; are these heaters sensitive to water or are they sealed up
> really good? 3) this heater heats up the motor only from one side while
> heating the cooling liquid and circulating it through the motor block
> heats it up thoroughly;
> so I somehow think that this approach is less effective and takes more
> time; is that really true?
> 4) and how exactly are they attached to the oil pan? Literally glued,
> which does not feel really safe to me? Or can it be positioned also
> with bolts (which requires welding few nuts to the outside of oil
> pan)?

The ones I've seen, but not used, were generally held in place by springs 
attached to eyelets installed under a few pan screw heads.  Usually 4, one 
on each corner of the heater pad.

As for shielding against mechanical damages, I think I'd install an 'off-
road' skid plate & let the big stuff bounce off it.

Cheers, Gene
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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[John Stewart]

Viesturs;

Another really off-topic post. 

Years ago, my wife at the time and I purchased a new diesel VW Golf. It came 
with the standard one year, anywhere in the world "we'll fix it" warranty.

6 months later, we were living in the Netherlands, and this car made it over 
with us. 

One month after that, I got a recall letter in my forwarded-from-Canada postal 
mail.

The recall notice (in Canadian Traditional Format - english one side, french 
the other) said that there was a recall on some power steering units, and to 
take the car to your nearest dealer.

So, I did. The dealer around the corner in The Netherlands had never seen a 
recall notice with english on one side, french on the other. He had no 
knowledge of the recall ID, either. But, he said "leave it with me, and I'll 
get back to you". We did, and he did.

The problem was that the power steering unit leaked when cold. There were no 
parts available in Europe, as it only got that cold on this side of the 
atlantic issue. So, he returned the car, the french/english recall letter, a 
covering letter from the dealer written in dutch, plus an inspection report in 
German, indicating that the car had been inspected within the warranty period, 
and it was not an issue in it's current location, but if it ever was 
re-exported back to Canada, that the power steering unit would be replaced free 
of charge.

So there!

John A. Stewart
Ottawa.
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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[John Stewart]

Viesturs;

We are in for another bout of cold weather, with night time lows of -30C. 

I have a block heater in my little Toyota Matrix, and when it's below about 
-20, I plug it in, and turn it on an hour or two before we try to start the car 
in the morning. 

It *does* make a difference. The car engine does turn over better than without 
it. Simple, reliable. 

Buildings here used to have (and, at work, still have) block heater plugs. But, 
now with fuel injection, the old "if it does not start in three 
rrRRRrrr-rrrRRRrrr's" when turning the ignition key go back to bed" no longer 
is an issue; the car simply starts. But, the engine makes less noises if the 
block heater has been turned on for a while beforehand.

John A. Stewart
Ottawa, where yesterday we had rain all day, and today it's forecast to hit 
-30C overnight tonight.


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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Kent A. Reed]

Viesturs:

A quick check with a search engine tells me there are tons of 
discussions of the relative merits of different heating techniques 
including opinionated folk living in extreme climates like northern 
Canada and Alaska, just to cite North America.

If I were adding a heater to an existing vehicle, I expect I'd go for an 
easily installed oil-pan heater despite the potential for scraping that 
you mention. Fortunately, I've never lived anywhere cold enough to 
justify these techniques (well, there was that winter in Chicago 40-odd 
years ago but I was without a car at the time. Even the elevated trains 
were out of service.). In my youth, dipstick-styled heaters were the 
rage in my grandparents' farm community in the Badlands.

It seems to me that if the nights are cold enough to justify an engine 
heater then a battery blanket/heater would be a good idea too. Car 
batteries lose much of their cranking capacity as the temperature plunges.

Regards,
Kent


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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Viesturs Lācis]

Thank You, guys, for the answers!

2013/1/20 Sven Wesley :
> All my cars have, and all my former cars had, electrical heaters. You don't
> need a pump.
> There are universal models that sits in the cooler hose that works
> flawlessly.

Well, there has to be something that makes the fluid to circulate.
Either it is a pump, which allows to place the heater anywhere with
respect to motor. Or let the fluid circulate naturally, based on the
fact that warmer liquid has smaller density so it moves up... But this
approach requires to position the heater carefully with the motor
block. It will not just work anywhere...

I suspect that Your electrical heating units have a pump already built in...

> There's a silicone/rubber plate model nowadays that you glue directly onto
> the oil pan that works pretty well too. Some guys use it to pre-heat the
> oil reservoir on hydraulic machines. I think the price is 50-70 Euro.

Yes, I have heard about them and we discussed them also with dad
yesterday as he mentioned that their price also is good, but since I
live in countryside there are several reasons I am suspicious about:
1) it should be attached to oil pan, which is at the very bottom of the motor;
do I understand correctly that it actually requires also some
protective shield to prevent any damage by things on the road? Like
pieces of snow and ice that I can hear to hit the bottom of car? The
road passing by my house is not cleaned within an hour or so after a
snowfall;
2) IMHO the oil pan definitely is subject to get splashes of water from wheels;
are these heaters sensitive to water or are they sealed up really good?
3) this heater heats up the motor only from one side while heating the
cooling liquid and circulating it through the motor block heats it up
thoroughly;
so I somehow think that this approach is less effective and takes more
time; is that really true?
4) and how exactly are they attached to the oil pan? Literally glued,
which does not feel really safe to me? Or can it be positioned also
with bolts (which requires welding few nuts to the outside of oil
pan)?

-- 
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[Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Roland Jollivet]

On 19 January 2013 23:22, Viesturs Lācis  wrote:

> Hello!
>
> Winter has arrived with temperatures below -20C, so I finally decided
> to something about inability to start up car's engine in these cold
> mornings.
> There are lots of options for auxiliary heating with fuel and
> electricity. I found on ebay a nice heater that works from fuel, but
> it costs some 600 EUR.
> I found out that my parents have installed some electrical heaters in
> several of our tractors. They are cheap (something around 70 EUR) and
> work good, but the problem is that there is no pump inside the unit,
> just heater. In tractors they are specially placed relatively low to
> the engine so that the cooling liquid flows naturally as it is heated.
> I do not think that it is possible in car, so the question is:
> Can anyone suggest a small pump, powered by AC electricity and, what
> is most important, that will work in -20C, -30C temperature? I was
> thinking about all these aquarium pumps - size is great, flow rate
> also good, but I am reserved about them working below 0C.
>
> Is there something for a reasonable price?
> Thanks in advance!
>
> --
> Viesturs
>
> If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
> http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto
>

Is the vehicle in a garage or parked outdoors?
If it's in a garage, I would concentrate on insulating/warming that.
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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[dave]

On Sun, 2013-01-20 at 15:30 +1100, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 19.01.13 19:30, dave wrote:
> 
> > e. ether ... not a good idea. 
> 
> I've heard that, but not why. We've used it for years on the venerable
> Cat D6 on the farm, when it's been neglected for a while. There've been
> no observable issues so far. Just whip the aircleaner out, give it a
> hefty squirt, then a bit more after it's cranked a bit, then some more
> as smoke pours out the exhaust, and eventually it fires. Next day it'll
> usually start with just the glowplugs, instead. ("Don't use the
> glowplugs when using ether." is my motto, but reading the fine print on
> the can is a fine idea.)
> 
> I can see that you might do a cylinder head or con-rod if the glowplugs
> are used, if my imagination is any guide.
> 
> Erik
> 

I tried ether once up in the mountains in late Aug. Cylinder fired early
and broke the starter gear. Luckily I was able to bump start and get
home. Otherwise it was going to be a long, long walk. 

Dave



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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Erik Christiansen]

On 19.01.13 19:30, dave wrote:

> e. ether ... not a good idea. 

I've heard that, but not why. We've used it for years on the venerable
Cat D6 on the farm, when it's been neglected for a while. There've been
no observable issues so far. Just whip the aircleaner out, give it a
hefty squirt, then a bit more after it's cranked a bit, then some more
as smoke pours out the exhaust, and eventually it fires. Next day it'll
usually start with just the glowplugs, instead. ("Don't use the
glowplugs when using ether." is my motto, but reading the fine print on
the can is a fine idea.)

I can see that you might do a cylinder head or con-rod if the glowplugs
are used, if my imagination is any guide.

Erik

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When all else fails, read the instructions.


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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[dave]

On Sun, 2013-01-20 at 14:12 +1100, Erik Christiansen wrote:
> On 20.01.13 02:42, Sven Wesley wrote:
> > All my cars have, and all my former cars had, electrical heaters. You don't
> > need a pump.
> > There are universal models that sits in the cooler hose that works
> > flawlessly.
> > 
> > There's a silicone/rubber plate model nowadays that you glue directly onto
> > the oil pan that works pretty well too. Some guys use it to pre-heat the
> > oil reservoir on hydraulic machines. I think the price is 50-70 Euro.
> 
> That I can grok. In '72 we had an ex-Indian Army colonel teaching us
> thermodynamics. He described how they started the diesel powered
> armoured vehicles, up in the mountainous north of that country - by
> lighting a fire under the belly plate. The petrol powered tanks were
> easier to get going, apparently. (And lighting a fire under them was
> hopefully a bit further down the list of safe things to do.)
> 
> > -26 C right now...
> 
> It. does. not. compute.
> 
> (Here, you leave a shiny spanner in the sun for some minutes, and you'll
> drop it with a yelp. There, you wouldn't be able to drop it, would you?)
> 
> Erik
> 
There are many ways of promoting starting in a diesel. 
Mine was a DD298 Herc off a 40 Kw gen set installed in a 3/4 T pickup.

a. heat the oil
b. heat the water jacket
c. heat the intake manifold
d. massive .. 2X or more cables to the starter
e. ether ... not a good idea. 

I used a 2250 W jacket heater on my diesel. It was positioned low enough
so convection worked for circulation. It also heated the oil in the pan
not by design but simply by conduction. 

I once started my diesel at +2 F with no aids. (elk hunting).

A propane torch on the intake manifold worked pretty well down to about
25 F. or a bit lower. 
The water jacket approach never failed me but I never had to use it
below -25 F. 

Gas rigs are probably best served by a warm battery and oil. Electronic
ignition and fuel injection seems to have made things a lot easier. 

YMMV

Dave




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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Erik Christiansen]

On 20.01.13 02:42, Sven Wesley wrote:
> All my cars have, and all my former cars had, electrical heaters. You don't
> need a pump.
> There are universal models that sits in the cooler hose that works
> flawlessly.
> 
> There's a silicone/rubber plate model nowadays that you glue directly onto
> the oil pan that works pretty well too. Some guys use it to pre-heat the
> oil reservoir on hydraulic machines. I think the price is 50-70 Euro.

That I can grok. In '72 we had an ex-Indian Army colonel teaching us
thermodynamics. He described how they started the diesel powered
armoured vehicles, up in the mountainous north of that country - by
lighting a fire under the belly plate. The petrol powered tanks were
easier to get going, apparently. (And lighting a fire under them was
hopefully a bit further down the list of safe things to do.)

> -26 C right now...

It. does. not. compute.

(Here, you leave a shiny spanner in the sun for some minutes, and you'll
drop it with a yelp. There, you wouldn't be able to drop it, would you?)

Erik

-- 
Food is not a commodity like others. We should go back to a policy
of maximum food self-sufficiency. It is crazy for us to think we can
develop countries around the world without increasing their ability
to feed themselves.- Bill Clinton, Speech at United Nations
   World Food Day, October 16, 2008


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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Erik Christiansen]

On 19.01.13 23:22, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
...
> I do not think that it is possible in car, so the question is:
> Can anyone suggest a small pump, powered by AC electricity and, what
> is most important, that will work in -20C, -30C temperature? I was
> thinking about all these aquarium pumps - size is great, flow rate
> also good, but I am reserved about them working below 0C.

Question: Does the pump need to work so far below 0°C if it is placed
near the cheap heater you're fitting? If the pump is within a modestly
insulated enclosure, adjacent to the heater (possibly padded a bit so it
doesn't get too hot), then it should be warm enough to function by the
time the engine coolant is warm enough to be pumped. So long as its
bearing lubricant is not frozen, the motor should be fine. The shaft
seal on a centrifugal pump would be the main concern?

I'm having trouble relating to those unimaginably low temperatures. It
was over 46°C in Penrith (45.8°C in Sydney) yesterday. Here in Victoria
it's much cooler today, but it snows leaves every time the wind blows on
the arid hotter days (40+°C), and the Manna Gums shed all their outer
bark when it gets hot, so the 45 x 240L wheelie-bins of leaves (plus 6
cu. m of sticks) cleaned up on my 3/4 acre outer-suburban block before
Christmas is as good as cancelled by all the crap which has fallen
since. Adequate insurance, evac kit packed, and regular monitoring of
the radio and the fire authority website are all you can do, with the
house surrounded by eucalypt forest. (Oh, and leave early - the roads in
our hills cannot cope with a mass evacuation.)

Erik

-- 
The Kyoto Protocol, drafted in 1997, aimed to reduce the world's greenhouse gas 
emissions by around five per cent from 1990 levels by the end of 2012.
Instead, global greenhouse gases have risen around 58 per cent in that time.  
 - 
http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-12-08/troubled-un-climate-talks-spill-over/4416696

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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Sven Wesley]

All my cars have, and all my former cars had, electrical heaters. You don't
need a pump.
There are universal models that sits in the cooler hose that works
flawlessly.

There's a silicone/rubber plate model nowadays that you glue directly onto
the oil pan that works pretty well too. Some guys use it to pre-heat the
oil reservoir on hydraulic machines. I think the price is 50-70 Euro.

-26 C right now...

/S




2013/1/20 craig 

> On 1/19/2013 1:22 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> > Hello!
> >
> > Winter has arrived with temperatures below -20C, so I finally decided
> > to something about inability to start up car's engine in these cold
> > mornings.
> > There are lots of options for auxiliary heating with fuel and
> > electricity. I found on ebay a nice heater that works from fuel, but
> > it costs some 600 EUR.
> > I found out that my parents have installed some electrical heaters in
> > several of our tractors. They are cheap (something around 70 EUR) and
> > work good, but the problem is that there is no pump inside the unit,
> > just heater. In tractors they are specially placed relatively low to
> > the engine so that the cooling liquid flows naturally as it is heated.
> > I do not think that it is possible in car, so the question is:
> > Can anyone suggest a small pump, powered by AC electricity and, what
> > is most important, that will work in -20C, -30C temperature? I was
> > thinking about all these aquarium pumps - size is great, flow rate
> > also good, but I am reserved about them working below 0C.
> >
> > Is there something for a reasonable price?
> > Thanks in advance!
> A couple of inexpensive alternative in rough order of costs.
>
> 1 install a momentary switch to put an additional battery in series on
> the ignition circuit. This wont work if it is too cold to turn over the
> engine but a really hot spark makes a big difference. (you dont need a
> very big auxillery battery since the ignition does not draw a lot to
> current and it is just used to start the car. release the switch as soon
> as the car starts. ) I use this when I go into the mountains in the winter.
>
> Note: I have only used this on old cars so I don't know if it will
> something bad to a modern ignition system.
>
> 2. heat the battery. A simple heating pad with a little insulation works
> quite well. (Wrap the pad in a acid resistant plastic if you want it to
> last).
>
> These won't heat the car but will make it a lot easier to start.
>
>
> Craig
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[craig]

On 1/19/2013 1:22 PM, Viesturs Lācis wrote:
> Hello!
>
> Winter has arrived with temperatures below -20C, so I finally decided
> to something about inability to start up car's engine in these cold
> mornings.
> There are lots of options for auxiliary heating with fuel and
> electricity. I found on ebay a nice heater that works from fuel, but
> it costs some 600 EUR.
> I found out that my parents have installed some electrical heaters in
> several of our tractors. They are cheap (something around 70 EUR) and
> work good, but the problem is that there is no pump inside the unit,
> just heater. In tractors they are specially placed relatively low to
> the engine so that the cooling liquid flows naturally as it is heated.
> I do not think that it is possible in car, so the question is:
> Can anyone suggest a small pump, powered by AC electricity and, what
> is most important, that will work in -20C, -30C temperature? I was
> thinking about all these aquarium pumps - size is great, flow rate
> also good, but I am reserved about them working below 0C.
>
> Is there something for a reasonable price?
> Thanks in advance!
A couple of inexpensive alternative in rough order of costs.

1 install a momentary switch to put an additional battery in series on 
the ignition circuit. This wont work if it is too cold to turn over the 
engine but a really hot spark makes a big difference. (you dont need a 
very big auxillery battery since the ignition does not draw a lot to 
current and it is just used to start the car. release the switch as soon 
as the car starts. ) I use this when I go into the mountains in the winter.

Note: I have only used this on old cars so I don't know if it will 
something bad to a modern ignition system.

2. heat the battery. A simple heating pad with a little insulation works 
quite well. (Wrap the pad in a acid resistant plastic if you want it to 
last).

These won't heat the car but will make it a lot easier to start.


Craig



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[Emc-users] OT - liquid pump for really cold temperature

[Viesturs Lācis]

Hello!

Winter has arrived with temperatures below -20C, so I finally decided
to something about inability to start up car's engine in these cold
mornings.
There are lots of options for auxiliary heating with fuel and
electricity. I found on ebay a nice heater that works from fuel, but
it costs some 600 EUR.
I found out that my parents have installed some electrical heaters in
several of our tractors. They are cheap (something around 70 EUR) and
work good, but the problem is that there is no pump inside the unit,
just heater. In tractors they are specially placed relatively low to
the engine so that the cooling liquid flows naturally as it is heated.
I do not think that it is possible in car, so the question is:
Can anyone suggest a small pump, powered by AC electricity and, what
is most important, that will work in -20C, -30C temperature? I was
thinking about all these aquarium pumps - size is great, flow rate
also good, but I am reserved about them working below 0C.

Is there something for a reasonable price?
Thanks in advance!

-- 
Viesturs

If you can't fix it, you don't own it.
http://www.ifixit.com/Manifesto

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