Re: [E-devel] Ignoring application developers, or just me?

[Jose Gonzalez]

David Seikel wrote:
 
> OK, I get it, you have zero understanding of virtual worlds, and no
> desire to learn anything about them, hence you have no clue what I've
> been talking about.  There are things you can do in virtual worlds you
> cannot do in the real world, that's one reason they exist.  Perhaps if
> you just trusted me on this subject.  B-)
>
> Yeah lots of people make the mistake of thinking virtual worlds are
> games.  They are not.  Games tend to have way better graphics than
> anything Second Life and OpenSim can do, SledjHamr should be able to
> do much better graphics coz EFL.  Games have actual game mechanics,
> virtual worlds do not.  Sure you can actually script games in either
> system if you want, and people have done so.  Game mechanics are not
> part of SledjHamr, so I'm not gonna write any games, not even demo
> games.  Any pre existing LSL (Second Life's scripting language) game
> scripts will run fine, and people will have the choice of other
> languages in SledjHamr.  I'll likely track down some open source LSL
> games and include them in the default download.
>
> Ah, only polish gets your attention.  Yeah, I'm mostly concerned with
> getting stuff to work, or getting ideas written down, not making it look
> pretty, yet.  Though I did spend some effort in MakeHuman building an
> avatar of myself, and the exact opposite of myself (I'm a tall old bald
> male, the opposite is a short young female with long hair), then trying
> them out in SledjHamr.  Which showed a problem with slow model loading,
> so I tried a more cut down avatar as well, which was still a tad slow,
> but no slower than Second Life.  All other models used so far are ones
> that EFL already had in various examples and tests, not a lot of pretty
> there really.  Evas_3D isn't up to importing anything from Second Life
> yet.
>
> The model animation mechanism in Evas_3D is frame based, all Second
> Life animations are either skeletal based, or scripted manipulation of
> primitives.  So the only thing animated in SledjHamr right now is the
> Sonic model.
>
> Some parts don't even work any more for EFL 1.18, which I'm still
> fixing.  Construction sites are not pretty, nor easy to navigate.
> Experimental stuff is experimental, deal with it.  There's a whole
> bunch of stuff that has to be working before there can be anything like
> a useful demo, so you can't expect me to START with those just to get
> people interested.  If I tried to make a video, bug T3282 (or what
> looks to be it's current replacement) will bite, and the result wont be
> pretty.  Evas_3D itself just ain't ready for pretty demos, especially
> not Elementary + Evas_3D.  So you can hardly expect me to be able to do
> so either.
>
> The overall intention of SledjHamr IS to make it "download app, run it,
> everything is simple and pretty", including things like no need for
> accounts or servers.  Eventually.  If it's not easier to use, less
> resource intensive, and prettier than Second Life, then that's a
> failure.
>
> For the 3D in file requester thing, we did also discuss putting it in
> the thumbnailer, or using a short animation instead of 3D.  I think I
> said a short animation was acceptable, if not ideal.  The entire
> subject was brought up coz of redesigning the thumbnailer.  I was just
> trying to make sure that some form of modular system was used that
> could cater for 3D thumbnails, and FDO icons (which was dropped last
> time it came up).  I even offered to write both myself.  I was just
> asking that such things be considered in some sort of generic way in
> the REDESIGN of ethumb.  If 3D icons in a file requester is important,
> then you are likely already using an application that is showing 3D
> models, so the overhead you mention isn't a problem, it's already
> there.  If it's not important, you don't have to load up the crap to
> show them.
>
> While it is true that I have commit access, and can write to anything I
> want, it's more polite to discuss things with the people that actually
> are working on various parts.  Which is what I've been trying to do.
> This is why, when I wrote my Elementary Evas_3D example, I didn't put
> it into Elementary, I put it into my EFL dev repo, and mentioned it so
> that if it was acceptable as a demo, we could move it to Elementary.  I
> could have just slapped it into Elementary, but I'm not one of the
> people responsible for that.
>
> Until today, I have had no feedback from the Evas_3D people, now they
> invited me to work on it, so I will.  If the first time I had offered to
> work on Evas_3D had actually gone ahead, then I would have been doing
> the work already, instead of ranting about it.
>
> Isn't the entire purpose of the bug tracker to, you know, actually track
> bugs.  So yeah, people should be looking there for the bugs in the parts
> of the system they are responsible for.  Phab didn't even have an
> Evas_3D category until I complained about the lack of one when lodging
> my 

Re: [E-devel] Ignoring application developers, or just me?

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 02:24:59 +1000 David Seikel  said:

> OK, I get it, you have zero understanding of virtual worlds, and no
> desire to learn anything about them, hence you have no clue what I've
> been talking about.  There are things you can do in virtual worlds you
> cannot do in the real world, that's one reason they exist.  Perhaps if
> you just trusted me on this subject.  B-)

ARGH! i get what they are. they are NOT GAMES. they have value only to a
specific set of people who like this. you're jumping to conclusions. my list
of various online massive world/3d games was that... i'm familiar with the
TECHNICAL ASPECTS of such things from the point of view of a user AND i've
tried my hand ad 3d engine building long ago. simple stuff but i've been there.

i know what 2nd life et al are. they have no VALUE TO ME. i see no reason to
have some immersive 3d world thing unless it's providing me with something like
entertainment. i see the use for 3d in other areas. frankly google earth these
days is pretty amazing. if you go to the cities where they have full 3d scans
of the city and all the buildings, trees, monuments turn up as (rough-ish)
models... it's rather "wow". it's an awesome way to explore a city remotely and
see almost what it really looks like. try look at places like rome, or berlin
in google earth. try hong kong or tokyo. this is a 3d world with a purpose.
mapping and exploration.

i have no use for a 3d world where you and everyone has avatars and pretends to
be someone they are not building virtual houses or whatever. that may be of
interest to OTHERS, but not ME. you will never get MY interest by pushing this
and this alone. and i'm trying to tell you that the vast majority of people on
this planet are similar. they are not interested. they ARE interested in
entertainment. they seem to have use for utilities like above.

> Yeah lots of people make the mistake of thinking virtual worlds are
> games.  They are not.  Games tend to have way better graphics than
> anything Second Life and OpenSim can do, SledjHamr should be able to

and thus my interest instantly drops. if you don't have the eyecandy...  even
then JUSt eyecandy for eyecandy's sake gets a wow... but it wont get people to
turn up or stay without continued goals/content.

> do much better graphics coz EFL.  Games have actual game mechanics,
> virtual worlds do not.  Sure you can actually script games in either
> system if you want, and people have done so.  Game mechanics are not
> part of SledjHamr, so I'm not gonna write any games, not even demo
> games.  Any pre existing LSL (Second Life's scripting language) game
> scripts will run fine, and people will have the choice of other
> languages in SledjHamr.  I'll likely track down some open source LSL
> games and include them in the default download.

this should be the very very very very first thing you do. find THE most
impressive "wow" like open source games and include them as the very default
thing. you want to have this in big fat screenshots/videos on your site. no one
has any clue about all of this without that, and they frankly never will nor
will they care until you do SOME effort in marketing like the above.

> Ah, only polish gets your attention.  Yeah, I'm mostly concerned with

dude. this is the case for 99% of people. it's a lesson i've learned. i happen
to have learned it very early on and it's been re-enforced for 20+ years. i am
trying to help you - stop dismissing polish as "oh BAH! polish! BAH eyecandy!
sexiness! bah! i am working on all this invisible nuts and bolts code and thus
you are so superficial if you cannot see the beauty of it all from my wall of
text" ... if you don't care about the presentation of your work then get used
to being ignored. this is a cold hard fact of life. you SHOULD have been taught
this way back in school when your teachers marked you on your assignments and
would mark you down if your handwriting was awful etc. etc. - presentation
MATTERS.

> getting stuff to work, or getting ideas written down, not making it look

dude. an idea written down has no value at all. write ideas all you like.
people who write up ideas and write more and more THINK this has value because
they put effort into the thinking/writing. IT DOES NOT.

DOING has value. PRESENTING what you have done so others can digest it nicely,
easily and get excited - that has value. SOLVING SOMEONES PROBLEMS has value.
SOVLING problems elegantly has even more value. ideas are like arse holes...
everyone has one. :) it's the execution and delivery that counts.

> pretty, yet.  Though I did spend some effort in MakeHuman building an

and THAT is your problem. you are not prioritizing making it pretty. making
your delivery. your presentation... ENTICING. if you want no attention, help,
interest, then fine - don't do this, but don't complain if no one cares. not
being sexy is a valid way of building something - you're in submarine mode.
it's often a good 

Re: [E-devel] Ignoring application developers, or just me?

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 11 Aug 2016 02:33:14 +1000 David Seikel  said:

> I forgot to mention, if ugly hard to use web sites are an instant turn
> off for you, why are we using Phab?  It's a horrid thing that uses made
> up words for it's main navigation.  Very hard to use.  Even harder to
> use it to show stuff to people that don't have an account.  Right now I
> can't find a document I know I have seen there before.  I at least use
> proper English, well except for words like SledjHamr.  lol

phab is a DEVELOPER site for core developers and for people to file bugs. yeah.
it uses weird names. but it's actualyl cleranly laid out and easy to ind. look
to the left nav bar and see:

"differential - review code" ... gee i wonder what that is or
"maniphest - tasks and bugs" ... well there it is.

phab is a TOOL for developers to work together with. seriously - find a better
tool that integrates bugs, developer wiki, code review, commit log tracking and
post-commit review, pastebin, basic file sharing etc. etc. - find one... good
luck. you end up having to run multiple disparate different things all of
which require their own login and own db and dont integrate together. phab is a
BACK-END TOOL for developers to collaborate.

that's why www.enlightenment.org is DIFFERENT. it's a simple wiki whose intent
is for marketing/getting interest of public at large and providing
documentation for developers using efl api's, but not involved in e/efl
development.

i go to www.enlightenment.org - right there, a logo then next.. ooh a
screenshot. ok. how do i get this? oh look.. "download"! oh look at that! clear
staring-me-in-the-face blue links to downloads! hey - as i said - it's not some
beacon of perfection but seriously... it's quick and simple to find what i need
to get started and gives me a reason to get started.

but i'm not complaining of being ignored here. i know full well that the
website could and should be better and i'll get around to that some time when i
get the time and the time is right. i need to get back to some nice screenshots
and what not.

but you need to take a good hard look at your site and make it "digestible" to
get people to have interest. have links to getting started/download/whatever
simple and obvious near the top or right of the page as that is where people
start. or have it smack bang in the center in a big fat button. center is where
people start then they start scanning/reading along top, down the right side.
that's usual behaviour in looking for something.

-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
The Rasterman (Carsten Haitzler)ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: [E-devel] Ignoring application developers, or just me?

[Simon Lees]

On 08/11/2016 01:54 AM, David Seikel wrote:
> OK, I get it, you have zero understanding of virtual worlds, and no
> desire to learn anything about them, hence you have no clue what I've
> been talking about.  There are things you can do in virtual worlds you
> cannot do in the real world, that's one reason they exist.  Perhaps if
> you just trusted me on this subject.  B-)
> 
> Yeah lots of people make the mistake of thinking virtual worlds are
> games.  They are not.  Games tend to have way better graphics than
> anything Second Life and OpenSim can do, SledjHamr should be able to
> do much better graphics coz EFL.  Games have actual game mechanics,
> virtual worlds do not.  Sure you can actually script games in either
> system if you want, and people have done so.  Game mechanics are not
> part of SledjHamr, so I'm not gonna write any games, not even demo
> games.  Any pre existing LSL (Second Life's scripting language) game
> scripts will run fine, and people will have the choice of other
> languages in SledjHamr.  I'll likely track down some open source LSL
> games and include them in the default download.
> 
I know there's a difference but short of CAD or specialist Geology
subjects games are the most likely other thing to use evas_3D

> Ah, only polish gets your attention.  Yeah, I'm mostly concerned with
> getting stuff to work, or getting ideas written down, not making it look
> pretty, yet.  
If thats the case you probably won't get heaps of help yet.


-- 

Simon Lees (Simotek)http://simotek.net

Emergency Update Team   keybase.io/simotek
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Re: [E-devel] Ignoring application developers, or just me?

[David Seikel]

I forgot to mention, if ugly hard to use web sites are an instant turn
off for you, why are we using Phab?  It's a horrid thing that uses made
up words for it's main navigation.  Very hard to use.  Even harder to
use it to show stuff to people that don't have an account.  Right now I
can't find a document I know I have seen there before.  I at least use
proper English, well except for words like SledjHamr.  lol

-- 
A big old stinking pile of genius that no one wants
coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.


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planning reports. http://sdm.link/zohodev2dev___
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Re: [E-devel] Ignoring application developers, or just me?

[David Seikel]

OK, I get it, you have zero understanding of virtual worlds, and no
desire to learn anything about them, hence you have no clue what I've
been talking about.  There are things you can do in virtual worlds you
cannot do in the real world, that's one reason they exist.  Perhaps if
you just trusted me on this subject.  B-)

Yeah lots of people make the mistake of thinking virtual worlds are
games.  They are not.  Games tend to have way better graphics than
anything Second Life and OpenSim can do, SledjHamr should be able to
do much better graphics coz EFL.  Games have actual game mechanics,
virtual worlds do not.  Sure you can actually script games in either
system if you want, and people have done so.  Game mechanics are not
part of SledjHamr, so I'm not gonna write any games, not even demo
games.  Any pre existing LSL (Second Life's scripting language) game
scripts will run fine, and people will have the choice of other
languages in SledjHamr.  I'll likely track down some open source LSL
games and include them in the default download.

Ah, only polish gets your attention.  Yeah, I'm mostly concerned with
getting stuff to work, or getting ideas written down, not making it look
pretty, yet.  Though I did spend some effort in MakeHuman building an
avatar of myself, and the exact opposite of myself (I'm a tall old bald
male, the opposite is a short young female with long hair), then trying
them out in SledjHamr.  Which showed a problem with slow model loading,
so I tried a more cut down avatar as well, which was still a tad slow,
but no slower than Second Life.  All other models used so far are ones
that EFL already had in various examples and tests, not a lot of pretty
there really.  Evas_3D isn't up to importing anything from Second Life
yet.

The model animation mechanism in Evas_3D is frame based, all Second
Life animations are either skeletal based, or scripted manipulation of
primitives.  So the only thing animated in SledjHamr right now is the
Sonic model.

Some parts don't even work any more for EFL 1.18, which I'm still
fixing.  Construction sites are not pretty, nor easy to navigate.
Experimental stuff is experimental, deal with it.  There's a whole
bunch of stuff that has to be working before there can be anything like
a useful demo, so you can't expect me to START with those just to get
people interested.  If I tried to make a video, bug T3282 (or what
looks to be it's current replacement) will bite, and the result wont be
pretty.  Evas_3D itself just ain't ready for pretty demos, especially
not Elementary + Evas_3D.  So you can hardly expect me to be able to do
so either.

The overall intention of SledjHamr IS to make it "download app, run it,
everything is simple and pretty", including things like no need for
accounts or servers.  Eventually.  If it's not easier to use, less
resource intensive, and prettier than Second Life, then that's a
failure.

For the 3D in file requester thing, we did also discuss putting it in
the thumbnailer, or using a short animation instead of 3D.  I think I
said a short animation was acceptable, if not ideal.  The entire
subject was brought up coz of redesigning the thumbnailer.  I was just
trying to make sure that some form of modular system was used that
could cater for 3D thumbnails, and FDO icons (which was dropped last
time it came up).  I even offered to write both myself.  I was just
asking that such things be considered in some sort of generic way in
the REDESIGN of ethumb.  If 3D icons in a file requester is important,
then you are likely already using an application that is showing 3D
models, so the overhead you mention isn't a problem, it's already
there.  If it's not important, you don't have to load up the crap to
show them.

While it is true that I have commit access, and can write to anything I
want, it's more polite to discuss things with the people that actually
are working on various parts.  Which is what I've been trying to do.
This is why, when I wrote my Elementary Evas_3D example, I didn't put
it into Elementary, I put it into my EFL dev repo, and mentioned it so
that if it was acceptable as a demo, we could move it to Elementary.  I
could have just slapped it into Elementary, but I'm not one of the
people responsible for that.

Until today, I have had no feedback from the Evas_3D people, now they
invited me to work on it, so I will.  If the first time I had offered to
work on Evas_3D had actually gone ahead, then I would have been doing
the work already, instead of ranting about it.

Isn't the entire purpose of the bug tracker to, you know, actually track
bugs.  So yeah, people should be looking there for the bugs in the parts
of the system they are responsible for.  Phab didn't even have an
Evas_3D category until I complained about the lack of one when lodging
my bug reports.

I have just as much coding experience as you do, probably more, you
can't pull that card on me.  Mines bigger than yours.  ;-P

-- 
A big old stinking pile of genius that 

Re: [E-devel] Ignoring application developers, or just me?

[The Rasterman]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 22:12:00 +1000 onefang Rejected  said:

> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:27:09 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
>  wrote:
> 
> > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:16:03 +1000 David Seikel 
> > said:
> > 
> > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:00:01 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
> > >  wrote:
> > > 
> > > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 13:23:33 +1000 David Seikel 
> > > > said:
> > > > 
> > > > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:29:50 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The
> > > > > Rasterman)  wrote:
> > > > > 
> > > > > > one thing with your evas 3d usage... it's not real/useful to
> > > > > > anyone else. if you made open source tools/apps that were
> > > > > > easily usable and downloadable (without needing special
> > > > > > accounts you have to pay for e.g second life) then you would
> > > > > > be interesting/relevant.
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > let me give you a sample:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > > if you  made a really nice world clock app for seeing world
> > > > > > timezones, selecting yours, setting date/time etc. that even
> > > > > > did sexy stuff like used topological maps of the world so
> > > > > > when you zoom into an area you get some mountains/hills and
> > > > > > so on... and this was part of e's settings tools or clock
> > > > > > tool with calendar etc. ... well then that'd be really cool
> > > > > > and useful to LOTs of people and accessible to everyone. :)
> > > > > > just saying. you're emails are "i'm working on this thing..
> > > > > > here on my hard drive... it does x/y/z and will do x/y/z".
> > > > > > that's not REAL to anyone. it's not accessible. it's not used
> > > > > > daily thus important. :) you want evas 3d to be useful to
> > > > > > your BIGGER projects you do like this, do some smaller ones
> > > > > > out the front that people see and use daily. :)
> > > > > 
> > > > > Er, my project is for Second Life, OpenSim, AND an alternative
> > > > > to both, and is on Github.  Your arguments are invalid.  Hell,
> > > > > my general idea is to make server side so efficient that by
> > > > > default, anyone can run their own little server to invite their
> > > > > friends to, even on their phone.  I'm trying to open up 3D
> > > > > virtual worlds to the masses.
> > > > 
> > > > "that are easily downloadable and usable without special
> > > > accounts". someone has to set up a server, run it, need accounts,
> > > > etc. is it a tool readily usable out of the box that people
> > > > actually will need/use regularly. a secondlife or quivalent is
> > > > not. a terminal is. a wm is. a web browser is. ... if someone has
> > > > to set up a server themselves or register accounts somewhere else
> > > > at all you just failed the "useful to anyone" :)
> > > 
> > > If you read SledjHamr.org, you'll see I have taken all of that into
> > > account.  Now you are just making up excuses to ignore me.
> > 
> > count the number of people here participating in any virtual world.
> > they use terminals. email clients. wm's. the number of people
> > involved in virtual worlds who would even look is small at best.
> > perhaps you don't like it, but i'm trying to tell you that the reason
> > no one is paying attention is you do not have something they want.
> > maybe others do, but no one here working on efl or e or core users
> > etc. is. or almost no one. if they were, then you wouldnt be a
> > periphery thing. i am not saying your work is bad or its stupid or
> > anything. i'm saying that expecting relevance is dependent on things
> > being relevant to others. if efl breaks terminology then that break
> > becomes relevant because LOTs of people use it here and even
> > elsewhere. but especially here. if evas_3d was being used in e for eg
> > 3d cube desktop switching effects... it'd be relevant to a whole lot
> > of people immediately.
> > 
> > i'm not even going to look at those projects because the premise of
> > them as a virtual world is not interesting or relevant to me. it is
> > to you and that's great. not to me. and if you go around wondering
> > why they are not paying attention then this is the primary reason.
> > you have to have things in common that make the things you want be
> > relevant. :) i'm trying to help you here by pointing out that to help
> > the project you care about, you may have to do other side projects
> > that have relevance to others to bring that to the fore. :)
> 
> That kinda sounds like you are telling me I basically have to bribe
> people to get anywhere.  Do you realise that A) a 3D virtual world

welcome to the real world. it's not bribe. it's marketing. it's shared
interest. it's a carrot. this is why you should always go from zero to demo
ASAP because that is your carrot. you have to give people a REASON to
prioritize you or your things above others.

> system is kinda HUGE (will take years, already has), 2) it involves all

and if it's going to be more 

Re: [E-devel] Ignoring application developers, or just me?

[Simon Lees]

On 08/10/2016 09:42 PM, onefang Rejected wrote:
> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:27:09 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
>  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:16:03 +1000 David Seikel 
>> said:
>>
>>> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:00:01 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
>>>  wrote:
>>>
 On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 13:23:33 +1000 David Seikel 
 said:

> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:29:50 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The
> Rasterman)  wrote:
>
>> one thing with your evas 3d usage... it's not real/useful to
>> anyone else. if you made open source tools/apps that were
>> easily usable and downloadable (without needing special
>> accounts you have to pay for e.g second life) then you would
>> be interesting/relevant.
>>
>> let me give you a sample:
>>
>> if you  made a really nice world clock app for seeing world
>> timezones, selecting yours, setting date/time etc. that even
>> did sexy stuff like used topological maps of the world so
>> when you zoom into an area you get some mountains/hills and
>> so on... and this was part of e's settings tools or clock
>> tool with calendar etc. ... well then that'd be really cool
>> and useful to LOTs of people and accessible to everyone. :)
>> just saying. you're emails are "i'm working on this thing..
>> here on my hard drive... it does x/y/z and will do x/y/z".
>> that's not REAL to anyone. it's not accessible. it's not used
>> daily thus important. :) you want evas 3d to be useful to
>> your BIGGER projects you do like this, do some smaller ones
>> out the front that people see and use daily. :)
>
> Er, my project is for Second Life, OpenSim, AND an alternative
> to both, and is on Github.  Your arguments are invalid.  Hell,
> my general idea is to make server side so efficient that by
> default, anyone can run their own little server to invite their
> friends to, even on their phone.  I'm trying to open up 3D
> virtual worlds to the masses.

 "that are easily downloadable and usable without special
 accounts". someone has to set up a server, run it, need accounts,
 etc. is it a tool readily usable out of the box that people
 actually will need/use regularly. a secondlife or quivalent is
 not. a terminal is. a wm is. a web browser is. ... if someone has
 to set up a server themselves or register accounts somewhere else
 at all you just failed the "useful to anyone" :)
>>>
>>> If you read SledjHamr.org, you'll see I have taken all of that into
>>> account.  Now you are just making up excuses to ignore me.
>>
>> count the number of people here participating in any virtual world.
>> they use terminals. email clients. wm's. the number of people
>> involved in virtual worlds who would even look is small at best.
>> perhaps you don't like it, but i'm trying to tell you that the reason
>> no one is paying attention is you do not have something they want.
>> maybe others do, but no one here working on efl or e or core users
>> etc. is. or almost no one. if they were, then you wouldnt be a
>> periphery thing. i am not saying your work is bad or its stupid or
>> anything. i'm saying that expecting relevance is dependent on things
>> being relevant to others. if efl breaks terminology then that break
>> becomes relevant because LOTs of people use it here and even
>> elsewhere. but especially here. if evas_3d was being used in e for eg
>> 3d cube desktop switching effects... it'd be relevant to a whole lot
>> of people immediately.
>>
>> i'm not even going to look at those projects because the premise of
>> them as a virtual world is not interesting or relevant to me. it is
>> to you and that's great. not to me. and if you go around wondering
>> why they are not paying attention then this is the primary reason.
>> you have to have things in common that make the things you want be
>> relevant. :) i'm trying to help you here by pointing out that to help
>> the project you care about, you may have to do other side projects
>> that have relevance to others to bring that to the fore. :)
> 
> That kinda sounds like you are telling me I basically have to bribe
> people to get anywhere.  Do you realise that A) a 3D virtual world
> system is kinda HUGE (will take years, already has), 2) it involves all
> sorts of sub projects that have to work together, III) lots of little
> side projects will drop out of it over the years simply due to A and
> 2, D) some of these might be the "relevant to others" you seek, why
> don't you look at the damn web site, and tell me which ones?  There's
> even a nice picture showing all of them.
> 
> OK, since you are going to ignore my web site, I'll explain that my
> design is more of a P2P thingy, no need to setup a server.  It also
> defaults to what ever user name your desktop already knows, and
> leverages 

Re: [E-devel] Ignoring application developers, or just me?

[David Seikel]

On Wed, 10 Aug 2016 12:47:51 + Oleksander Zazubrina
 wrote:

> >The Evas_3D developers recently requested some design comments on
> >this list.  I was the only person that actually responded on the
> >list, and as far as I can tell, my responses where ignored, not even
> >any acknowledgement that they where read.
> 
> It wasn't ignored. We try to collect different views about raised
> features (Ephysics and CPU transformation)

Ah, good to hear.

> >I'm the only one outside of Samsung actually trying to use Evas_3D
> 
> It is a pity but it sounds as it.

I don't mind, so long as we can actually cooperate.

> In my opinion if you want contribute to Evas 3D WELLCOME!!!.

Thanks.

> Also I think you should discuss your features with community and
> announcement it in Evas 3D TODO list.

I'll do that.

> In addition I really wandering that you offer trying bring new format
> file in Evas 3D. I didn't know any about it.

I had detailed that on this mailing list before you took over Evas_3D.
Perhaps the previous people didn't pass the information onto you?

> Could you add support *.fbx format file?

FBX isn't specifically mentioned in libg3d, but it could be added.
FBX includes motion capture data, I don't think Evas_3D supports that
yet.  libg3d only deals with 3D models and textures, not motion data.
The BVH motion capture file format is something I'll be needing as
well, I'm not sure what your plans are about that sort of motion data
and skeletal systems.


I'll just copy from the libg3d README, to give you an idea what it
is about, what I offer is to port it to EFL, it's currently based on
GTK.


LIBG3D:

This library loads 3D models from various file formats. Its aim is to
support basic import functionality for as much formats as possible.
More complete support is better, of course, and the long time goal.

To help developing plugins and for general use, too, there are a lot of
basic 3d manipulation function, including vector and matrix math, common
file reading stuff, transformations and 3d primitive support.

SUPPORTED FILETYPES:
+---+---+---+---+---+-+
|\ feat.| i | c | t | n | s   |
| \ | m | o | e | o | u +-+
|  \| p | l | x | r | b | |
|   \   | o | o | t | m | o | |
|\  | r | r | u | a | b | |
| \ | t | s | r | l | j | |
| type \|   |   | e | s | s | Program |
+---+---+---+---+---+---+-+
| .3mf  | x | x |   |   |   | 3D Metafile |
| .3ds  | x | x | p |   |   | 3D Studio   |
| .ac   | x | x | x |   | x | AC3D|
| .acc  | x | x | x |   | x | AC3D with triangle strips (TORCS)   |
| .ar   | x |   |   |   | x | Racer container files   |
| .ase  | x |   | p | x |   | ASCII Scene Exporter (3D Studio)|
| .b3d  | x | x |   |   |   | ?? (3D MetaFile format) |
| .car  | x |   |   |   | x | VDrift car description  |
| .cob  | x | x |   |   |   | Caligari TrueSpace  |
| .dof  | x | x | p | x |   | Racer model files   |
| .dxf  | x |   |   |   |   | AutoCAD |
| .flt  | p |   |   |   |   | OpenFlight (in Progress, experimental)  |
| .glb  | x | x | x | x |   | UltimateStunts models   |
| .iob  | x | x |   |   |   | Impulse Turbo Silver / Imagine  |
| .iv   | p |   |   |   |   | SGI Inventor (ascii only)   |
| .joe  | x |   | x | x |   | VDrift v3 .joe car models   |
| .lcd  | x | x |   |   |   | LeoCAD  |
| .lw   | x | x |   |   |   | LightWave   |
| .lwb  | x | x |   |   |   | LightWave   |
| .lwo  | x | x |   |   |   | LightWave   |
| .mb   | p |   |   |   | x | Maya (binary)   |
| .md2  | x |   |   |   |   | id Software Quake II|
| .md3  | x | x | x | ? |   | id Software Quake III   |
| .mon  | p |   |   |   |   | Monzoom (Reflections) (experimental)|
| .nff  | x | x |   | x |   | Neutral File Format |
| .obj  | x | x |   |   |   | Alias Wavefront Maya|
| .prj  | x | ? |   |   |   | 3D Studio   |
| .q3o  | x | x | x |   |   | Quick3D Object  |
| .q3s  | x | x | x |   |   | Quick3D Scene   |
| .r3   | p |   |   |   |   | Reflections 3 (experimental)|
| .r4   | p |   |   |   |   | Reflections 4 (experimental)|
| .stl  | p |   |   |   |   

Re: [E-devel] Ignoring application developers, or just me?

[Oleksander Zazubrina]

>The Evas_3D developers recently requested some design comments on this
>list.  I was the only person that actually responded on the list, and as
>far as I can tell, my responses where ignored, not even any
>acknowledgement that they where read.

It wasn't ignored. We try to collect different views about raised features 
(Ephysics and CPU transformation)


>I'm the only one outside of Samsung actually trying to use Evas_3D

It is a pity but it sounds as it.


In my opinion if you want contribute to Evas 3D WELLCOME!!!.

Also I think you should discuss your features with community and announcement 
it in Evas 3D TODO list.

In addition I really wandering that you offer trying bring new format file in 
Evas 3D. I didn't know any about it.

Could you add support *.fbx format file?

Oleksandr.

От: onefang Rejected 
Отправлено: 10 августа 2016 г. 15:12
Кому: enlightenment-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
Тема: [E-devel] Ignoring application developers, or just me?

On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:27:09 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
 wrote:

> On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 15:16:03 +1000 David Seikel 
> said:
>
> > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 14:00:01 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman)
> >  wrote:
> >
> > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 13:23:33 +1000 David Seikel 
> > > said:
> > >
> > > > On Thu, 4 Aug 2016 11:29:50 +0900 Carsten Haitzler (The
> > > > Rasterman)  wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > one thing with your evas 3d usage... it's not real/useful to
> > > > > anyone else. if you made open source tools/apps that were
> > > > > easily usable and downloadable (without needing special
> > > > > accounts you have to pay for e.g second life) then you would
> > > > > be interesting/relevant.
> > > > >
> > > > > let me give you a sample:
> > > > >
> > > > > if you  made a really nice world clock app for seeing world
> > > > > timezones, selecting yours, setting date/time etc. that even
> > > > > did sexy stuff like used topological maps of the world so
> > > > > when you zoom into an area you get some mountains/hills and
> > > > > so on... and this was part of e's settings tools or clock
> > > > > tool with calendar etc. ... well then that'd be really cool
> > > > > and useful to LOTs of people and accessible to everyone. :)
> > > > > just saying. you're emails are "i'm working on this thing..
> > > > > here on my hard drive... it does x/y/z and will do x/y/z".
> > > > > that's not REAL to anyone. it's not accessible. it's not used
> > > > > daily thus important. :) you want evas 3d to be useful to
> > > > > your BIGGER projects you do like this, do some smaller ones
> > > > > out the front that people see and use daily. :)
> > > >
> > > > Er, my project is for Second Life, OpenSim, AND an alternative
> > > > to both, and is on Github.  Your arguments are invalid.  Hell,
> > > > my general idea is to make server side so efficient that by
> > > > default, anyone can run their own little server to invite their
> > > > friends to, even on their phone.  I'm trying to open up 3D
> > > > virtual worlds to the masses.
> > >
> > > "that are easily downloadable and usable without special
> > > accounts". someone has to set up a server, run it, need accounts,
> > > etc. is it a tool readily usable out of the box that people
> > > actually will need/use regularly. a secondlife or quivalent is
> > > not. a terminal is. a wm is. a web browser is. ... if someone has
> > > to set up a server themselves or register accounts somewhere else
> > > at all you just failed the "useful to anyone" :)
> >
> > If you read SledjHamr.org, you'll see I have taken all of that into
> > account.  Now you are just making up excuses to ignore me.
>
> count the number of people here participating in any virtual world.
> they use terminals. email clients. wm's. the number of people
> involved in virtual worlds who would even look is small at best.
> perhaps you don't like it, but i'm trying to tell you that the reason
> no one is paying attention is you do not have something they want.
> maybe others do, but no one here working on efl or e or core users
> etc. is. or almost no one. if they were, then you wouldnt be a
> periphery thing. i am not saying your work is bad or its stupid or
> anything. i'm saying that expecting relevance is dependent on things
> being relevant to others. if efl breaks terminology then that break
> becomes relevant because LOTs of people use it here and even
> elsewhere. but especially here. if evas_3d was being used in e for eg
> 3d cube desktop switching effects... it'd be relevant to a whole lot
> of people immediately.
>
> i'm not even going to look at those projects because the premise of
> them as a virtual world is not interesting or relevant to me. it is
> to you and that's great. not to me. and if you go around wondering
> why they are not paying attention then this is the primary reason.
> you