date:20140610

Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
this?

Recent example -
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/

-- 
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Bodhi Linux http://bodhilinux.com/, Enlightenment for your Desktop
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread David Seikel

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland
jeffhoogl...@linux.com wrote:

 Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts
 on this?
 
 Recent example -
 http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/

Tell the people that think it looks old that they are fashion nazis,
and should create their own theme.  Black is finally the new black.  B-)

-- 
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coz there are too many silver coated monkeys in the world.

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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Alan McKinnon

On 10/06/2014 16:38, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
this?

Recent example -
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/

Jeff,

I feel the same way as those posters, just without the violence, insults
and lets-rip-Jeff-a-new-one-coz-we-can attitude :-)

Truth be told, most enlightenment themes out there are butt-ugly and
amateurish. But enlightenment is a tool, it paints on the canvas, and
it's very good at doing that. It can also only paint what the theme
tells it to paint.

Icons are the thing that does stand out the most - enlightenment's
internal built-in icons are nice, but they are also very different from
all the other application icons the user will have, it leads to an
inconsistent look. I've learned to live with it, but really slick icons
would be nice.

GUI design is hard, really hard, and takes a fanatical attention to
detail. I watch the web designers at work, sometimes they obsess about
an element's position to *one* pixel! It does show in the results though.

I think your main problem is that like a code lead, you can only work
with the submissions you get and what you write yourself. You only get
to work with themes that people submit (that one fellow's comment that
you are the team lead and therefore is about as unhelpful as it
gets), and good themes take a good artist. I'm no artist :-)

I think if you want to address the uglyness of some themes, you'd need
to get decent feedback from real artists who can point out aesthetic
flaws in a constructive way. Random arb users on reddit is not where you
will get that.

--
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
would not want to use another system.

The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.

What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
- how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
and long time users.

I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
refined aesthetics and functional defaults. It would also have to
utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
think is most poignant:

This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
it, I would still love it just as much. Although I would not recommend
it, let only install it on other peoples computers as I otherwise do.
Much the same, I never ever recommend Bodhi or Enlightenment in general
to anyone under any circumstances.

You asked,

William

On 06/10/2014 09:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
this?

Recent example -
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Ondřej Svoboda

Jeff,

you are right that those guys do not really say anything helpful. I am
using the default theme and I find it both beautiful and usable, as well
as Enlightenment as a whole. It is very carefully engineered and not
getting in the way.

To me, the theme is classic, yet very polished, reminding me of 90's,
in a good way. Not needlessly big, as elsewhere. I am not a designer but
I do not see a reason for everything becoming flat or bright; the look
is pretty this way, balanced.

I might point out though some little flaws that I did not have time to
report yet:

- The battery meter is not very readable to me (with 1.0 scaling). On
hover, the displayed numbers are WHITE, too small and positioned very
close to the reflection on the battery. I cannot deduce if the second
line is an estimation of time remaining. A little pop-up (after a click,
like with a calendar?) would do a better job, optionally. (Some
minimalist guys might want to stick to the two lines being displayed
over the battery icon.)

- Additionally, I believe it should distinguish the two states of
running on A/C vs. running on battery more sharply, even when the
battery is fully charged. The + sign when charging is too little. A
charging connector or another indication should be displayed when fully
charged and running on A/C.

- Third, I get the battery too low message too soon (at about 50% when
there is plenty of energy left)

I will post these as bugs as soon as I have time to do so.

Thank you and the team for the lot of work you have put into Enlightenment!
Ondra Svoboda

On 10.6.2014 16:38, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
this?

Recent example -
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/

Re: [e-users] Terminology and SCIM

On 10/06/14 04:20, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 works for me with a kde app... i don't know what's up with you there, but if
 you used the e scim setup, it runs the scim core for you on login and sets
 several env vars:

I did use the input method settings in E to configure SCIM;
http://www.enlightenment.org/ss/e-53972ddb098720.50418271.jpg

 11:18AM ~  env | grep -i scim
 GTK_IM_MODULE=scim
 QT_IM_MODULE=scim
 XMODIFIERS=@im=SCIM
 ECORE_IMF_MODULE=scim

http://www.enlightenment.org/ss/e-53972d7bd51fb9.00672651.jpg

 these make things work... works for me on gtk, qt and efl apps... ? :/ i have
 enabled korean with romaja input and anthy for japanese in scim settings...


This is starting to become a little frustrating ^_^;

I've even rebooted my computer now, but terminology still does not 
appear to work with SCIM.
Is there some efl package I might be missing, or a compile time option 
the packager may have missed?

-- 
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:wq

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Re: [e-users] Terminology and SCIM

2014-06-10 Thread Iván Briano

On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 1:11 PM, Morten Nilsen mor...@runsafe.no wrote:
 On 10/06/14 04:20, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 works for me with a kde app... i don't know what's up with you there, but if
 you used the e scim setup, it runs the scim core for you on login and sets
 several env vars:

 I did use the input method settings in E to configure SCIM;
 http://www.enlightenment.org/ss/e-53972ddb098720.50418271.jpg

 11:18AM ~  env | grep -i scim
 GTK_IM_MODULE=scim
 QT_IM_MODULE=scim
 XMODIFIERS=@im=SCIM
 ECORE_IMF_MODULE=scim

 http://www.enlightenment.org/ss/e-53972d7bd51fb9.00672651.jpg

 these make things work... works for me on gtk, qt and efl apps... ? :/ i have
 enabled korean with romaja input and anthy for japanese in scim settings...


 This is starting to become a little frustrating ^_^;

 I've even rebooted my computer now, but terminology still does not
 appear to work with SCIM.
 Is there some efl package I might be missing, or a compile time option
 the packager may have missed?


Maybe, did you have SCIM installed by the time you built the EFL?

 --
 Cheers, Dr. P
 :wq

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Re: [e-users] Terminology and SCIM

On 10/06/14 18:23, Iván Briano wrote:
 Is there some efl package I might be missing, or a compile time option
 the packager may have missed?

 Maybe, did you have SCIM installed by the time you built the EFL?

I didn't build anything, I installed the packages available in this 
repo: http://repo.fedora.md/fmd/fedora/20/x86_64/

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:wq

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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Martin Koelewijn

Ugly: matter of taste. I've always liked the default themes a lot, and
some others in the old pre-E17 days. The color variations on the old
bw theme not so much. Inconsistency with gtk themes is the problem for
me. It's very hard to find a good dark gtk theme, that doesn't mess up
web browsing in firefox for example or libre-office. Though probably
both programs are to blame as well.

Awful: well, maybe. I understand the 'gui principle': customize
everything with gui. But it's not always obvious. I don't understand
how the composite settings work. I only partly understand how the
evrything module settings work. I don't understand how the display
settings work (using extra monitors and stuff; on my pc I let the
nvidia drivers care, but on my laptop with intel drivers it's not
working well). Config files sometimes are easier. I have absolutely no
idea how phab(ricator) works. There is no users forum (besides nowadays
the bodhi forums) and I am banned from #e (probably with good reason,
but I have no idea why, maybe my irc client went berserk when I was
afk). Anyway: support isn't always easy to get.

All in all, I'm fixed on e because performance is good and I like most
of the underlying principles. It has no weird daemons, no bloat. There
are creative people behind it who add new stuff to the window
managers / desktop environments scene (think default themes, everything
module, terminology). I know my around it now and it's just more than
fine for me.

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500
Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com wrote:

Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts
on this?

Recent example -
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira

2014-06-10 11:38 GMT-03:00 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com:

 Thoughts on
 this?


It's a matter of taste.

Maybe if developers followed this user's advices, we'd have even more
hateful comments on this same thread.

My preferred E theme was the grunge theme, but E breaks compat with themes
too often and I think this is the reason why people are discouraged to
create E themes.


-- 
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https://about.me/vinipsmaker
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Alan McKinnon

On 10/06/2014 17:34, William wrote:
 I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a 
 secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular 
 Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly 
 refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to 
 utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid 
 version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do 
 not feel it is my place to champion such an idea.


It's my belief that Jeff already made much progress to make this
possible - Bodhi offers 6 choices of layout to the user when first run,
and one of them follows the general pattern of pre-Win7 Windows and
default KDE.

It's quite simple to make these templates, they really are just standard
.e/e/ config files

With a basic stupid version, all the functionality of enlightenment is
still there, just not exposed

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com


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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful


On 06/10/2014 11:58 AM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
 On 10/06/2014 17:34, William wrote:
 I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
 secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
 Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
 refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
 utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
 version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
 not feel it is my place to champion such an idea.

 It's my belief that Jeff already made much progress to make this
 possible - Bodhi offers 6 choices of layout to the user when first run,
 and one of them follows the general pattern of pre-Win7 Windows and
 default KDE.

 It's quite simple to make these templates, they really are just standard
 .e/e/ config files

 With a basic stupid version, all the functionality of enlightenment is
 still there, just not exposed

I Don't disagree. Jeff has done a lot to simplify much about 
Enlightenment. In fact, I was just about to write about that. I 
especially like how easy breezy keeping the system up to date is. I also 
think it's great how I just type sudo apt-get install bodhi-desktop on 
a number of distros and bam! there it is as a DE choice at logon. That 
alone offers more incentive to give it a try since people can install in 
their favorite Ubuntu derivative rather than multi-boot just to try it.

And so I was about to write:

Jeff,

I will say that your work has gone a long way towards easing the 
situation across the board. So I pose the question to you: You being the 
one that brought this problem up, what more do you think you can do to 
make things better? Personally I think pushing forward with aesthetics 
is the way to go. Equally important, the settings panel needs two modes 
of operation that can be toggled between: basic and advanced. Advanced 
would be what the default as it is now, basic would limit presented 
options and would be the new default view. Picking and choosing what 
goes in what category could be tricky to a point. For example, a lot of 
stuff under Windows could be hidden by default, with defaults already 
chosen that mirror behaviors found in more popular distros. Also, I 
don't know if the person working on the Radiance theme is an official 
team member, but they were doing a fantastic job until 2 updates ago 
when it suddenly turned ugly. Perhaps you need to expand your core dev 
team to focus on the very artistic problems you mentioned?






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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Gustavo Sverzut Barbieri

everybody know it is ugly :-D what's the news?

On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com wrote:
Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
this?

Recent example -
http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/

--
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Thoughts on Technology http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/, Tech Blog
Bodhi Linux http://bodhilinux.com/, Enlightenment for your Desktop
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Yomi Ogunwumi

I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
-*Yomi*

On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

You asked,

William

On 06/10/2014 09:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
this?

Recent example -

http://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/27qt7k/bodhi_linux_300_rc1_released_ubuntu_1404_base/

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread mk

Jeff,

Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I suspect 
you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that Bodhi is an 
ubuntu derivative. 

Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic illiterate.

Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of yellow 
added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These colors are 
extremely disturbing psychologically speaking. 

Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.

http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html




On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com wrote:
I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
-*Yomi*


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

 First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
 workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
 have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
 would not want to use another system.

 The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
 ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
 is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
 guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
 after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
 to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
 universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.

 What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
 aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
 - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
 most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
 ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
 the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
 course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
 exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
 to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
 that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
 anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
 entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
 browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
 approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
 trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
 best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
 explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
 they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
 and long time users.

 I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
 secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
 Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
 refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
 utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
 version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
 not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
 double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
 super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
 to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
 the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
 of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
 distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
 tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
 Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
 descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
 think is most poignant:


 This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
 was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
 case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
 with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
 was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
 it, I would still love it just as much. Although I would not recommend
 it, let only install it on other peoples computers as I otherwise do.
 Much the same, I never ever recommend Bodhi or Enlightenment in general
 to anyone under any circumstances.

 You asked,

 William

 On 06/10/2014 09:38 AM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
  Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
  this?

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Fan Cris

people complain anyway. if is new then the old was better if keep the way
is not modern/ugly/...
look at firefox/opera/kde/gnome/...
full with heaters :)
i dont like your theme but im sure others will like it, keep your way :)



On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:31 PM, mk joz_...@yahoo.ca wrote:

 Jeff,

 Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
 suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
 Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.

 Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
 illiterate.

 Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
 yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
 colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.

 Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.


 http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html




 On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
 point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

 I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
 -*Yomi*


 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

  First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
  workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
  have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
  would not want to use another system.
 
  The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
  ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
  is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
  guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
  after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
  to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
  universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
 
  What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
  aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
  - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
  most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
  ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
  the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
  course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
  exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
  to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
  that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
  anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
  entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
  browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
  approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
  trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
  best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
  explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
  they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
  and long time users.
 
  I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
  secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
  Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
  refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
  utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
  version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
  not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
  double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
  super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
  to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
  the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
  of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
  distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
  tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
  Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
  descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
  think is most poignant:
 
 
  This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
  was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
  case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
  with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
  was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
  it, I would still love it just as much. Although

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Christopher Barry

Agreed. Bhodi's default theme is painful to look at. Read some Johannes
Itten, like 'elements of color'.
On Jun 10, 2014 3:35 PM, mk joz_...@yahoo.ca wrote:

 Jeff,

 Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
 suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
 Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.

 Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
 illiterate.

 Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
 yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
 colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.

 Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.


 http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html




 On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
 point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

 I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
 -*Yomi*


 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

  First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
  workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
  have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
  would not want to use another system.
 
  The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
  ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
  is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
  guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
  after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
  to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
  universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
 
  What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
  aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
  - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
  most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
  ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
  the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
  course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
  exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
  to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
  that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
  anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
  entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
  browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
  approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
  trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
  best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
  explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
  they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
  and long time users.
 
  I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
  secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
  Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
  refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
  utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
  version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I do
  not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
  double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY* ugly,
  super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
  to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
  the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar opposite
  of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
  distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the upcoming
  tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
  Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
  descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and I
  think is most poignant:
 
 
  This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
  was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in my
  case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
  with others, and I don't mind extreme configuration. If elementary OS
  was extremely ugly but otherwise had the interface features I like about
  it, I would still love it just as much. Although I would not recommend
  it, let only install it on other peoples computers as I otherwise do.
  Much the same, I never ever recommend

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

Chris,

These same people complain about the default E theme and the dozens of E17
themes out there.


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Christopher Barry 
christopher.r.ba...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed. Bhodi's default theme is painful to look at. Read some Johannes
 Itten, like 'elements of color'.
 On Jun 10, 2014 3:35 PM, mk joz_...@yahoo.ca wrote:

  Jeff,
 
  Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
  suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
  Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.
 
  Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
  illiterate.
 
  Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
  yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
  colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.
 
  Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.
 
 
 
 http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html
 
 
 
 
  On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com
  wrote:
  I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
  point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹
 
  I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.
 
  1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
  -*Yomi*
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:
 
   First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
   workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
   have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
   would not want to use another system.
  
   The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
   ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
   is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
   guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
   after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong
 tendency
   to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
   universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
  
   What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about
 the
   aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
   - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
   most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
   ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
   the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
   course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
   exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of
 settings
   to find it. There are numerous other interface features to
 Enlightenment
   that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
   anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
   entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
   browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything
 is
   approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
   trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
   best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
   explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
   they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
   and long time users.
  
   I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
   secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
   Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
   refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to
   utterly gut the settings panel, of... most things. Basically a stupid
   version of Enlightenment. I think it could actually be popular, but I
 do
   not feel it is my place to champion such an idea. Further, it would
   double the complexity of development, and I want to make sure *MY*
 ugly,
   super-complicated, ultra-functional version of Enlightenment continues
   to exist. I LOVE it the way it is. So I suppose I am actually against
   the idea. Just the other day, I was on the elementary OS (polar
 opposite
   of Enlightenment) Google+ board where I am very active since that's the
   distro I put on other peoples computers. We were discussing the
 upcoming
   tiling windows manager plugin for elementary OS. I mentioned that I use
   Bodhi and briefly discussed its tiling feature. Of course, the hate
   descended. My next to the last post on the matter reads as follows and
 I
   think is most poignant:
  
  
   This is true. However, I care absolutely nothing about aesthetics. ( I
   was desensitized after working with mainframes a long time ago) So in
 my
   case, ugliness does not interfere with my user experience as it does
   with others, and I don't mind

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

It is just beyond frustrating that even here people are just linking
abstract ideas. What is a cut and dry solution? Give me hexcodes/RBG values
for things that are suppose to look modern and mesh well.

I'm not an artist and I don't claim to be. I am just looking for reasonable
feedback that isn't this sucks to pass onto the folks working hard on
themes.

A side note would be that I really wish we had a stable theme API so
everything could stop breaking every year. Really makes it hard to trust
E/devote time to themeing.


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:27 PM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

 Jeff,

 mk is actually on to something. I grew up with a dad who was a research
 and development chemist. He specialized in... color. As a conseqence I
 heard a lot about it and got roped into doing a couple science fairs
 relating to the subject of color. As ironic as it is, I am an unusual
 individual as I quite literally do not understand the concept of
 favorite color I have no preference for any one over the other, which
 is why (as I stated earlier) really don't care about aesthetics at all.
 Apparently this is uncommon and puts me in a small statistical minority.
 Google psychology of color or color psychology to get an idea of how
 color usage affects people. From what the world has to say about it,
 it's important enough to make a difference. Although from what I
 understand there is a difference in the way colors are used in an
 interactive, changing interface as opposed to a static wall or business
 card or some such thing.


 On 06/10/2014 02:31 PM, mk wrote:
  Jeff,
 
  Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
 suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
 Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.
 
  Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
 illiterate.
 
  Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
 yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
 colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.
 
  Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.
 
 
 http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html
 
 
 
 
  On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
  point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹
 
  I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.
 
  1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
  -*Yomi*
 
 
  On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
  workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
  have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
  would not want to use another system.
 
  The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
  ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
  is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
  guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
  after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong tendency
  to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
  universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.
 
  What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about the
  aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
  - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
  most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
  ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
  the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
  course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
  exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of settings
  to find it. There are numerous other interface features to Enlightenment
  that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
  anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
  entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
  browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything is
  approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
  trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
  best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
  explored. To this day, there are settings that even I don't know what
  they do. I fully appreciate why that may not be apparent to developers
  and long time users.
 
  I have long played with the thought that perhaps there should be a
  secondary, not so super-scary version of Enlightenment for regular
  Linux users. This would have to have a default interface with highly
  refined aesthetics and functional defaults.  It would also have to

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread Vinícius dos Santos Oliveira

2014-06-10 18:33 GMT-03:00 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com:

 It is just beyond frustrating that even here people are just linking
 abstract ideas. What is a cut and dry solution? Give me hexcodes/RBG values
 for things that are suppose to look modern and mesh well.


What about using Tango[1]-themed icons?

And the Solarized[2] colorscheme is getting popular among developers.


[1] http://tango.freedesktop.org/
[2] http://ethanschoonover.com/solarized


-- 
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

2014-06-10 Thread meine

 Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
 this?

lots of people still don't understand that you are _not_ forced to drive a 
Trabant/Volkswagen/Opel/stupid car for the rest of your life if you don't 
want to. fancy a Viper, Ferrari, Tesla, Dacia or 2CV? be our guest!

the beauty of Linux is that you can change distro, desktop environment or/and 
window manager. and if you still don't like it, you can build your own theme or 
get the source code and make it the way you like it best. at no cost, without 
loss of data or productivity.

but people are just complaining and walking away from their own responsibility 
to make a better personal choice, surf an hour on the net and get something 
better. or dump it all and buy some over priced device with the window controls 
placed counter intuitively.

IMNHO this is the cost of making Linux available for the mono designed and 
Redmondish educated masses. Linux offers so much more than themes alone. but do 
lusers know? it will take a while for people to get used to the Freedom of 
Choice.

in the end they will catch it ;-)

-- 
//meine

--
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

While I admit that I never installed any, all of the e17 themes strike 
me as highly individualistic, rather than something I would associate 
with mass appeal.

 It is just beyond frustrating that even here people are just linking
 abstract ideas. What is a cut and dry solution? Give me hexcodes/RBG values
 for things that are suppose to look modern and mesh well.

 I'm not an artist and I don't claim to be. I am just looking for reasonable
 feedback that isn't this sucks to pass onto the folks working hard on
 themes.

 A side note would be that I really wish we had a stable theme API so
 everything could stop breaking every year. Really makes it hard to trust
 E/devote time to themeing.
That's just it though, you are dealing with something that is abstract, 
and I think this feedback has been reasonable. If there is someone out 
there that can give you precise color codes and tell you just how to 
apply them, they should probably be designing the theme in the first 
place. I really hate to suggest this, but if the people designing themes 
can't pull this off, maybe the wrong people are designing themes - 
obviously the other DEs are pulling it off or we would not be having 
this conversation. Although I do not know how to go about recruiting new 
talent.

Perhaps you will consider the following more constructive: the way other 
DE's seem to do this is by developing, posting, and getting feedback on 
mock ups before committing to a design. This happens in a 
wash-rinse-repeat fashion. They also work within more restrictive and 
well established design parameters. Perhaps the theme API is too 
flexible for its own good.

On 06/10/2014 04:15 PM, Jeff Hoogland wrote:
 Chris,

 These same people complain about the default E theme and the dozens of E17
 themes out there.


 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:08 PM, Christopher Barry 
 christopher.r.ba...@gmail.com wrote:

 Agreed. Bhodi's default theme is painful to look at. Read some Johannes
 Itten, like 'elements of color'.
 On Jun 10, 2014 3:35 PM, mk joz_...@yahoo.ca wrote:

 Jeff,

 Red, orange, brown are not suitable colors for desktop environment. I
 suspect you used orange as a menu highlight to symbolically indicate that
 Bodhi is an ubuntu derivative.

 Not a good choice. Take it out. Mark Shuttleworth is an artistic
 illiterate.

 Think of this: why matadors use red (orange is basically red a bit of
 yellow added) to excite bulls? Why red is used to mark whorehouses? These
 colors are extremely disturbing psychologically speaking.

 Here is a link on colors, explaining some basic things with examples.



 http://www.hungarianambiance.com/2009/06/magic-of-simultaneous-contrast.html



 On Tuesday, June 10, 2014 2:09:53 PM, Yomi Ogunwumi abyo...@gmail.com
 wrote:
 I don't worry too much about the Settings Panel horror, because at some
 point in the future this will be fixed, apparently. ¹

 I also don't play around with Settings too much because I get lost.

 1 : https://phab.enlightenment.org/T553
 -*Yomi*


 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:34 AM, William wjck...@gmail.com wrote:

 First a disclaimer: I Love Enlightenment and use it as my main
 workstation OS. While I only started using it full-time last year, I
 have been following it's development since 1997. As things stand, I
 would not want to use another system.

 The ugly and awful truth from my perspective: yes, Enlightenment is
 ugly. However, ugly is misinterpreted as awful. Compounding the problem
 is that Enlightenment is extraordinarily complex. I would venture to
 guess that easily 99% of people who try Enlightenment give up on it
 after less than two-hours. As all distros\WMs\DEs have a strong
 tendency
 to troll one another to different degrees, users in all groups
 universally troll against Enlightenment. I see it almost everyday.

 What is the difference with me? I could not possibly care less about
 the
 aesthetics of a user interface. It is what I can do with it that counts
 - how I can arrange my workflow. In that respect, Enlightenment is the
 most powerful environment available. My most favorite features is the
 ability to tell one of my displays to be a tiling WM. It is not merely
 the ability but the incredibly well thought out way it is designed. Of
 course, if you are a new user, you may never know the functionality
 exists since one must (comparatively) dig through a mountain of
 settings
 to find it. There are numerous other interface features to
 Enlightenment
 that I love, and when made to work together simply cannot be found
 anywhere else - not even close. But the settings are another barrier to
 entry. If you are not immediately turned off by Enlightenment's looks,
 browsing through the settings will send most running. When everything
 is
 approached at once through the settings panel, for many it is like
 trying to chisel a tunnel through the moon with a hammer. Some of the
 best settings are labeled in non-intuitive ways, and so are never
 explored. To this day, there are

[e-users] Has enlightenment stopped supporting Ubuntu?

2014-06-10 Thread E F

The latest Ubuntu LTS release (trusty) has been out for two months now, but 
the latest distribution in the PPA is saucy. The packages in the PPA have 
broken dependencies in trusty, and cannot be installed even after modifying 
the PPA URL to use saucy instead of trusty.

There is a working e17 package in the main Ubuntu repositories, but it is much 
older than the one in the PPA (0.17.3, which does not have a ConnMan module).

Upgrading a machine from the previous Ubuntu LTS (precise) that was using the 
PPA therefore results in a downgraded version of enlightenment.

Any chance the PPA will be fixed? Or is it back to the tedium of installing 
Enlightenment from source?
  
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Re: [e-users] Has enlightenment stopped supporting Ubuntu?

You can easily add Bodhi's E19 desktop to any 14.04 install -
http://jeffhoogland.blogspot.com/2014/03/howto-add-bodhis-enlightenment-desktop.html


On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 4:53 PM, E F orobo...@hotmail.com wrote:

 The latest Ubuntu LTS release (trusty) has been out for two months now,
 but the latest distribution in the PPA is saucy. The packages in the PPA
 have broken dependencies in trusty, and cannot be installed even after
 modifying the PPA URL to use saucy instead of trusty.

 There is a working e17 package in the main Ubuntu repositories, but it is
 much older than the one in the PPA (0.17.3, which does not have a ConnMan
 module).

 Upgrading a machine from the previous Ubuntu LTS (precise) that was
 using the PPA therefore results in a downgraded version of enlightenment.

 Any chance the PPA will be fixed? Or is it back to the tedium of
 installing Enlightenment from source?


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 Find What Matters Most in Your Big Data with HPCC Systems
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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

 the beauty of Linux is that you can change distro, desktop environment or/and 
 window manager. and if you still don't like it, you can build your own theme 
 or get the source code and make it the way you like it best. at no cost, 
 without loss of data or productivity.
This is the sort of entrenched Open Source cultural bias that, until 
recently, has held Linux back. Just because you find distro hopping a 
beautiful thing, does not mean the majority of modern regular users 
do. Just because you come from a culture where you can break out the 
source code, make changes and recompile at no cost, without loss of 
data or productivity. does not mean that regular users have the time 
to put up with that, the skills to do it, or even have the ability to 
develop the skills to do it. Saying that you need to learn to code to 
use Linux is one of the oldest and most damaging clichés surrounding 
Linux. In the world of modern Linux, we have a massive influx of users 
from Windows and OS X who just want something that works and is 
painfully simple to use with a redundant interface. Have you ever 
noticed that themes for the likes of Mint and elementary OS don't 
actually change much of anything but a few colors and icon sets?

 but do lusers know?
Seriously? is this 1996?

 it will take a while for people to get used to the Freedom of Choice.
I hate to break it to you, but it is the other way around. Linux needs 
to adapt to users, not the other way around. The new, and most important 
in the history of Linux, population of Linux users want mono-design. 
They do not want or will they be hackers.

On 06/10/2014 04:46 PM, meine wrote:
 Is basically the feedback I get from non-E users most times. Thoughts on
 this?
 lots of people still don't understand that you are _not_ forced to drive a 
 Trabant/Volkswagen/Opel/stupid car for the rest of your life if you don't 
 want to. fancy a Viper, Ferrari, Tesla, Dacia or 2CV? be our guest!

 the beauty of Linux is that you can change distro, desktop environment or/and 
 window manager. and if you still don't like it, you can build your own theme 
 or get the source code and make it the way you like it best. at no cost, 
 without loss of data or productivity.

 but people are just complaining and walking away from their own 
 responsibility to make a better personal choice, surf an hour on the net and 
 get something better. or dump it all and buy some over priced device with the 
 window controls placed counter intuitively.

 IMNHO this is the cost of making Linux available for the mono designed and 
 Redmondish educated masses. Linux offers so much more than themes alone. but 
 do lusers know? it will take a while for people to get used to the Freedom of 
 Choice.

 in the end they will catch it ;-)



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Re: [e-users] Terminology and SCIM

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 18:31:05 +0200 Morten Nilsen mor...@runsafe.no said:

 On 10/06/14 18:23, Iván Briano wrote:
  Is there some efl package I might be missing, or a compile time option
  the packager may have missed?
 
  Maybe, did you have SCIM installed by the time you built the EFL?
 
 I didn't build anything, I installed the packages available in this 
 repo: http://repo.fedora.md/fmd/fedora/20/x86_64/

is there an scim ecore_imf module installed? /usr/lib/ecore_imf/modules for you
i guess (adjust /usr as appropriate).

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Re: [e-users] Terminology and SCIM

On 11/06/14 00:30, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
 is there an scim ecore_imf module installed? /usr/lib/ecore_imf/modules for 
 you
 i guess (adjust /usr as appropriate).


There does seem to be, I have this file;
/usr/lib64/ecore_imf/modules/xim/v-1.10/module.so

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Re: [e-users] Terminology and SCIM

On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 01:15:58 +0200 Morten Nilsen mor...@runsafe.no said:

 On 11/06/14 00:30, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
  is there an scim ecore_imf module installed? /usr/lib/ecore_imf/modules for
  you i guess (adjust /usr as appropriate).
 
 
 There does seem to be, I have this file;
 /usr/lib64/ecore_imf/modules/xim/v-1.10/module.so

then... i'm not sure why it doesn't work. ecore_imf can't find it's modules?
that'd be odd.

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Re: [e-users] Has enlightenment stopped supporting Ubuntu?

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 21:53:29 + E F orobo...@hotmail.com said:

enlightenment never supported ubuntu. some individuals dod some packaging at
some point and made ppas or voulunteered to be official package maintainers and
put them into debian and/or ubuntu. a lot of the core devs now have stopped
using ubuntu, or never used it at all.

so.. no we didn't stop supporting ubuntu. we actually are pretty distro
agnostic. there are too many distros with too much complexity to go supporting
them all, and to be honest, supporting ubuntu is fighting the os itself.

now onto the future. canonical wants to productize ubuntu more, have their own
display system (mir), and everything tightly bound and controlled by the
desktop environment they make. that's fine. it's their distro, but it is not
friendly to efl or e, and thus we have no plans on supporting the future
of ubuntu. if you use ubuntu, then make your choices, stick to it and drop e
and efl as that is the reality of ubuntus future, or switch, as ubuntu and
canonical are on a path very much different to most of the rest of the linux
ecosystem.

 The latest Ubuntu LTS release (trusty) has been out for two months now, but
 the latest distribution in the PPA is saucy. The packages in the PPA have
 broken dependencies in trusty, and cannot be installed even after modifying
 the PPA URL to use saucy instead of trusty.
 
 There is a working e17 package in the main Ubuntu repositories, but it is
 much older than the one in the PPA (0.17.3, which does not have a ConnMan
 module).
 
 Upgrading a machine from the previous Ubuntu LTS (precise) that was using
 the PPA therefore results in a downgraded version of enlightenment.
 
 Any chance the PPA will be fixed? Or is it back to the tedium of installing
 Enlightenment from source? 
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Re: [e-users] Terminology and SCIM

2014-06-10 Thread Iván Briano

On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com wrote:
 On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 01:15:58 +0200 Morten Nilsen mor...@runsafe.no said:

 On 11/06/14 00:30, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
  is there an scim ecore_imf module installed? /usr/lib/ecore_imf/modules for
  you i guess (adjust /usr as appropriate).
 

 There does seem to be, I have this file;
 /usr/lib64/ecore_imf/modules/xim/v-1.10/module.so

 then... i'm not sure why it doesn't work. ecore_imf can't find it's modules?
 that'd be odd.


That's the plain XIM module, not SCIM.

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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com said:

i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so far.
before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are not
subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of the
audience.

now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi linux
theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color selection
for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme isn't an
accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly it's
glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they like dark
themes. also it's different and thus makes e stand out. if e blends in and is
just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have much
less to offer.

now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is NOT
an accident:

http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html
http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html
http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-favorite-colors/
http://forum.softpedia.com/topic/577468-culoarea-masinii-preferinte-in-diverse-zone-ale-globului/
http://autos.aol.com/article/color-study-2009/
http://www.mojomotors.com/blog/the-most-popular-car-colors/
http://www.catsynth.com/2007/01/fun-with-stats-most-popular-car-colors/

(i can continue finding references).

notice several things. black (or dark grey) and blue feature high in preferences
of people around the world. see the psychology one. black gives power and
authority, it also implies professionalism. blue implies peace and tranquility
and can improve productivity.

these choices are far from being an accident. also dark colors use less power
on oled panels. :)

now for being different. attracting attention. standing out. if we looked the
same, we'd blend in and then you find it hard to get people to switch. you're
just the same!. they look at screenshots. they dont spend the time to use and
get to know e. they make their decisions on pretty pictures.

so the bodhi color choice i would say goes contrary to what is popular and is
acceptable for people. sure - the green stands out, but people don't really
like green for their ui. looking at the theme, it looks almost EXACTLY like a
green version of ubuntu. i look at it and go ewww. uglier ubuntu.. it has no
character. it has no soul. it has no identity of its own. it's a copy of an
existing ui just with worse colors and less polish. you want specific feedback,
and this is it. at least from me. read up on color psychology and popularity
and then make a good choice. :)

the next problem is the ubuntu copy look. it just looks bad. it may blend well
with ubuntus mods to gtk so it fits, but then it provides no individual
character of its own. e then is just a poor copy of unity in ubuntu.

for e's default theme i chose the colors, then another concept - squareness. i
made my gtk match - see attached gtkrc. at least color-wise it doesn't stand out
glaringly like a sore thumb, but there is a limit to how well they can match.
back to the default. yes - i chose bevels with shadows and some gradients. yes
it's old fashioned. the bitchers you see want something that looks just like
the flat design in the new osx or what google puts on their pages. they want it
because they love following fashion. in a few years fashion will change again.
i, for one, am not the kind of person who reads the fashion mags and buys a new
pare of pants, shoes etc. just because it's the in thing this season, but
reality is a lot of people are just that and they will rain insults down on you
unless what you provide matches THEIR exact perceived idea of what is cool
today. i chose the bevels and shadows because there is a lot of ui precedent
that these are important. they indicate to a user that it is a BUTTON to be
CLICKED, as opposed to just some flat rectangle with some text in it. people
have no idea that they can CLICK that. to them it is a passive label. i stopped
listening to fashion followers long ago, because all you end up with is a
continual chasing of the latest trend. reality is that everyone has different
tastes and THAT is what themes are for. we don't really have the manpower to do
more than a single well polished theme. we just don't have artists. even the
default theme is lacking. it lacks many icons it should have. the icons should
be consistent and match the theme, but there just hasn't been time to work on
it all. likely there never will be.

yes - the icons in the default theme need work. now for the bodhi theme. take a
look at the icons in your screenshot, the i icon in the about windows has a
pure green that kind of clashes with the green int he background. some icons -
like the

Re: [e-users] Terminology and SCIM

On 11/06/14 04:21, Iván Briano wrote:
 There does seem to be, I have this file;
 /usr/lib64/ecore_imf/modules/xim/v-1.10/module.so

 then... i'm not sure why it doesn't work. ecore_imf can't find it's modules?
 that'd be odd.


 That's the plain XIM module, not SCIM.

Okay, so the package maintainer neglected to include SCIM support.
Time to get my hands back into rpmbuild then ^_^
I was planning on making my own packages and possibly hosting them on a 
repo eventually, but I had planned on getting my feet a bit wetter on 
the user end first.

But I've run into a problem with the configuration of efl that I have 
not been able to immediately resolve;

checking for glTexImage2D in -lGLESv2... no
configure: error: OpenGL XLib dependencies not found

I presume I am missing a packate not listed in the BuildReqiures of the 
source rpm, but the answer eludes me.

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:wq

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Re: [e-users] Terminology and SCIM

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 23:21:03 -0300 Iván Briano sachi...@gmail.com said:

 On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 11:11 PM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com
 wrote:
  On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 01:15:58 +0200 Morten Nilsen mor...@runsafe.no said:
 
  On 11/06/14 00:30, Carsten Haitzler (The Rasterman) wrote:
   is there an scim ecore_imf module installed? /usr/lib/ecore_imf/modules
   for you i guess (adjust /usr as appropriate).
  
 
  There does seem to be, I have this file;
  /usr/lib64/ecore_imf/modules/xim/v-1.10/module.so
 
  then... i'm not sure why it doesn't work. ecore_imf can't find it's modules?
  that'd be odd.
 
 
 That's the plain XIM module, not SCIM.

oh gah. stupid me. i didnt read the path properly. indeed no scim. just xim.
there should be an scim dir in modules with the same version/module.so in it.

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Re: [e-users] Terminology and SCIM

On Wed, 11 Jun 2014 05:47:20 +0200 Morten Nilsen mor...@runsafe.no said:

 On 11/06/14 04:21, Iván Briano wrote:
  There does seem to be, I have this file;
  /usr/lib64/ecore_imf/modules/xim/v-1.10/module.so
 
  then... i'm not sure why it doesn't work. ecore_imf can't find it's
  modules? that'd be odd.
 
 
  That's the plain XIM module, not SCIM.
 
 Okay, so the package maintainer neglected to include SCIM support.
 Time to get my hands back into rpmbuild then ^_^
 I was planning on making my own packages and possibly hosting them on a 
 repo eventually, but I had planned on getting my feet a bit wetter on 
 the user end first.
 
 But I've run into a problem with the configuration of efl that I have 
 not been able to immediately resolve;
 
 checking for glTexImage2D in -lGLESv2... no
 configure: error: OpenGL XLib dependencies not found
 
 I presume I am missing a packate not listed in the BuildReqiures of the 
 source rpm, but the answer eludes me.

missing opengl development headers etc. maybe mesa-devel or something? don't
know. but you want GL/gl.h in it.

 -- 
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 :wq
 
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[e-users] engage

2014-06-10 Thread mik firestone

My understanding is that engage hasn't compiled for a while, due to changes
in the compositing layer.

I really miss engage. I miss it enough I will attempt to fix it. I can code
and I have some experience with graphics toolkits. I also have a week or so
in the near future where I can focus on getting this working again.

Are there any resources that I can use to understand what changed in the
compositing layer, or broader resources that I can use to understand how to
write a module in general?

Thanks,
Mik

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Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful

They aren't just talking about the Bodhi theme. They are talking about E in
general.

That web update thread goes back to a point where we don't have a default
Bodhi theme - we have a selection of themes at startup which includes your
dark default theme.

What doesn't look consistent and/or polished about our current theme for
3.0.0? Just like the default - it can come in many different colors, so
saying green is bad is a cop out. As many have mentioned it looks fairly
similar to unity - which many of these same people complaining about how E
looks/functions are happy with.

On Tue, Jun 10, 2014 at 10:20 PM, Carsten Haitzler ras...@rasterman.com
wrote:

On Tue, 10 Jun 2014 09:38:20 -0500 Jeff Hoogland jeffhoogl...@linux.com
said:

i'm going to respond here and include some stuff put into the thread so
far.
before i do that note that several efl devs you'd want to talk to are not
subscribed to this mailing list, so expect you are seeing a subset of the
audience.

now covering some of the reddit comments. they are talking of the bodhi
linux
theme, and at a personal level, i agree. i don't like it. why? color
selection
for starters. orange and green. not a great choice. the default theme
isn't an
accident. i actually did research. i didn't want to be light as frankly
it's
glaring on the eyes and looking at a large set of our userbase, they like
dark
themes. also it's different and thus makes e stand out. if e blends in
and is
just like everything else, then from a marketing point of view, we have
much
less to offer.

now the theme is dark (i chose dark greys so i could have some contrast and
difference between elements than pure black), with blue hilights. blue is
NOT
an accident:

http://isp.netscape.com/whatsnew/package.jsp?name=fte/popularcolor/popularcolor
http://www.infoplease.com/spot/colors1.html

http://www.hgtv.com/color/the-5-most-popular-colors-from-hgtvcom/pictures/index.html
http://www.thetoptens.com/top-ten-favorite-colors/

http://forum.softpedia.com/topic/577468-culoarea-masinii-preferinte-in-diverse-zone-ale-globului/
http://autos.aol.com/article/color-study-2009/
http://www.mojomotors.com/blog/the-most-popular-car-colors/
http://www.catsynth.com/2007/01/fun-with-stats-most-popular-car-colors/

(i can continue finding references).

notice several things. black (or dark grey) and blue feature high in
preferences
of people around the world. see the psychology one. black gives power and
authority, it also implies professionalism. blue implies peace and
tranquility
and can improve productivity.

these choices are far from being an accident. also dark colors use less
power
on oled panels. :)

now for being different. attracting attention. standing out. if we looked
the
same, we'd blend in and then you find it hard to get people to switch.
you're
just the same!. they look at screenshots. they dont spend the time to use
and
get to know e. they make their decisions on pretty pictures.

so the bodhi color choice i would say goes contrary to what is popular and
is
acceptable for people. sure - the green stands out, but people don't
really
like green for their ui. looking at the theme, it looks almost EXACTLY
like a
green version of ubuntu. i look at it and go ewww. uglier ubuntu.. it
has no
character. it has no soul. it has no identity of its own. it's a copy of an
existing ui just with worse colors and less polish. you want specific
feedback,
and this is it. at least from me. read up on color psychology and
popularity
and then make a good choice. :)

the next problem is the ubuntu copy look. it just looks bad. it may blend
well
with ubuntus mods to gtk so it fits, but then it provides no individual
character of its own. e then is just a poor copy of unity in ubuntu.

Re: [e-users] Enlightenment is Ugly and Awful