Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing

[Carsten Haitzler]

On Wed, 9 May 2018 09:33:07 -0700 Marc MERLIN  said:

> I'll change the title for the different discussion.
> 
> First a question: does the version number mean what I think it means, or
> does it really not mean much?
> My guess/expectation is that 
> 0.21.0 start with new features
> 0.21.x gets tweaks and bug fixes
> 0.21.11 is the last from that featureset branch and the most stable of that
> branch (at least ideally)

yes. the micro version (last version number changing above) means basically
bug fixes only (or relevant changes that are equivalent to a bug fix).

> 0.22.0 start over with brand new features and bugs
> etc..

0.22 should have all the fixes 0.21.xxx has as the fixes in 0.21.xxx will have
been cherry-picked/backported from 0.22. 0.22 may introduce new bugs we don't
know about, but unless people try code in git before it becomes 0.22 and report
issues, we don't know. bugs that we see get fixed. bugs we don't, do not. bugs
that are reported may get fixed if we can reproduce them or possibly divine
what it might be (but if its not reproducible by developers then it's
impossible to fix without help from the affected user - by sending them patches
or having them try attempted fixes to verify is needed).

> Does that sound correct?
> 
> > > 1) never had time to even get anything building until today
> > > 2) 0.22 has too many different bugs for me to want to keep trying to use
> > > it. 
> > 
> > well then we are at an impasse. nothing is going to change or be fixed
> > because there is no way to know what to change or why, so you will be on
> > 0.21 forever and we'll move on. sorry. we've been through this before. :(
>  
> We have. The problem here is that I've literally never, not once,
> upgraded E because I wanted new features. I've only ever upgraded it
> because I absolutely had to for a reason or another (bugs,
> incompatibilities).
> I'd have stayed with 0.18.5 forever if it weren't for it not working
> with chrome anymore, and so forth.
> Hell, I'd likely still be on 0.16 if I could ;)
> However, every time I've upgraded E, I got unwelcome to very unwelcome
> new bugs, making me regret my upgrade :-/

then try git master before releases - use a different ~/.e directory (or back
up ~/.e - tar it up and when going back to the previous stable wipe ~/.e and
untar it ... though do this without e running). yes - this requires a build env
that you have to set up once. it's installing some -dev pkgs. it's not hard.
i've done it many times. i've done it on horribly slow machines too and it's
not that time consuming. maybe 10-20mins on a slow box (re-running configure to
get to the next error each time. no need to re-do autogen.sh as long as
configure was generated ... for efl. for e it's meson now so same thing and its
lightning fast vs configure).

if you don't participate, then this happens. e has so many options that it is
impossible to test them all in all combinations as well as all possible use
cases with all possible apps and all possible machines with differing speeds
and thus race conditions and all the possible applications and their own
behaviour patterns etc. etc.

the only way to do that is to have many users participate. it's the only way to
scale such QA. we have pages documenting even what packages to install to
compile (they aren't quite right but they get you 90% of the way there). how to
compile etc. has docs on enlightenment.org. it isn't a laborious time sink
unless you choose to make it one and do it the hard way and not use these
docs. :)

if you stick to an old e and you have issues you will be left behind. that's
reality. we can't support old versions. even supporting one is enough work and
even that doesn't get all the bug fixes back-ported. really only some that are
clear and simple and easily cherry-picked, and perhaps the odd one that needs
work.

> Yes, you're going to hate me for saying that, sorry :)
> Basically E has done what I needed for a long time. It's not adding any
> features I need (although I'll admit that the pulse sound slider per
> window is actually a nice new feature in 0.22).
> 
> I know I've come off as complaining and not contributing. Sadly, it's
> because my WM has to work, it's not a hobby for me, it's like X, it has
> to work because all my other work depends on it.

my wm has to work too - all day. i do development in it... and mine does.
solidly. it's not crashing or doing weird focus things like for you. i use git
master as it rolls all day every day. the thought that "i must use something
old and stable otherwise it will never work" is wrong. one problem with a
release is developers move away from that release to git master instantly and
if they find bugs they fix them in git master and then backport (maybe - see
above). but people using the latest release will not be using what developers
use. that is normal and to improve this we should do more frequent releases,
but that wouldn't work for you as you would never 

Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[The Rasterman]

On Thu, 10 May 2018 09:11:08 +0900 Florian Schaefer  said:

> Hi everyone,
> 
> sorry for jumping into the discussion so suddenly. :-)
> 
> On 10.05.18 01:12, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> [...]
> >> Ok, so basically you are confirming that 
> >> https://photos.app.goo.gl/GFht7beUYWbobxpP6
> >> is a bug in 0.21.11 and that 
> > 
> > oh wit. now i see it.. as your mouse goes over "Terminal" it focused "apps
> > - ..." ... the pointer should/would focus the window it is over, even if
> > that window is partly obscured by something on top.
> > 
> >> 1) I'm the first one to see it, maybe because no one is using that
> >> release with focus follow mouse?
> >>
> >> 2) it's not going to get fixed because 0.21.x is a dead branch
> > 
> > correct. the answer is "use 0.22". we don't have the manpower to support
> > multiple stable branches going back in time. we maintain one (the last
> > release stable branch). :(
> [...]
> 
> I'd just like to confirm that I observe a similar behavior here since
> some weeks perhaps. I'm currently using efl and e 0.22 recompiled from
> GIT on April 22nd.
> 
> Basically I see the same behavior. Interestingly only Firefox (version
> 56 in my case) seems to steal the focus from the top windows. And also
> only with some applications (e.g. FoxitReader) on top and not strictly
> always reproducible. Still, this is really unnerving as I tend to close
> my windows using keyboard shortcuts mostly and I always end up closing
> the Firefox beneath instead of the intended application...

does it still do it on git master?

-- 
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Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[Carsten Haitzler]

On Wed, 9 May 2018 09:29:56 -0700 Marc MERLIN  said:

> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:12:10AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > > Ok, so basically you are confirming that 
> > > https://photos.app.goo.gl/GFht7beUYWbobxpP6
> > > is a bug in 0.21.11 and that 
> > 
> > oh wit. now i see it.. as your mouse goes over "Terminal" it focused "apps
> > - ..." ... the pointer should/would focus the window it is over, even if
> > that window is partly obscured by something on top.
>  
> Thanks for confirming, as well as the other questions.

i saw the other bits at first with terminal focusing while it was still behind
the main browser window on top and thought that is what you were complaining
about. it was this above instead. got it now.

> > you shouldn't. e is like your favorite browser there - chrome. you cant' use
> > configs too new for the browser (i've hit it before thanks to rsync :))
> > configs are one way upgrades. you could manually downgrade configs. it's
> > possible with some time and effort using the eet tool. but older code
> > doesn't know how to downgrade config from some e version in the future it
> > knows nothing about.
>  
> Thanks for confirming. So basically any downgrade, even a .1 downgrade,
> .e will detect it and delete the entire profile. Correct?

no. e shouldnt change config versions within micro versions as it wouldn't be
upgrading config... normally. BUT it may be that a bug fix required a version
upgrade. it is in theory possible. i don't know if this was actually done in
real life during 0.21.xxx ... you'd have to check the commits to the stable
branch to see if any bumped cfg version.

> > > 5) if my profile is going to get lost, can I at least somehow backup all
> > > my saved window settings, which literally take me 30 to 45mn to
> > > painstakenly recreate one by one?
> > 
> > yes. eet. tool. you can decode/ecode config from the files to text files,
> > edit them, splice them together then encode/insert them again.
> 
> I'll see which one is less pain/time lost, thanks.
> But first I have to find which 0.21 does not have that bug, given that
> 0.22 is mostly unusable for me (details in upcoming message).
> 
> Thanks,
> Marc
> -- 
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   | PGP
> 7F55D5F27AAF9D08
> 


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Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[The Rasterman]

On Wed, 9 May 2018 17:05:03 -0700 Marc MERLIN  said:

> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 09:32:03AM +0930, Simon Lees wrote:
> > 
> > 
> > On 09/05/18 23:50, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > > On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 11:16:52AM +0200, Jérémy Zurcher wrote:
> > >> Hello Marc,
> > >>
> > >> I don't like that default behaviour either.
> > >> but it's very easy to disable :
> > >>   Settings -> Windows -> window focus -> Click window to focus
> > > 
> > > Yeah, thanks for that workaround, I could do this if I had to.
> > > 
> > > However, sorry if I'm being dense here:
> > > I've had focus follow mouse for literally 20 years.
> > > I've never had my mouse pointer focus a window underneath the window I'm
> > > pointing on.
> > > I sure don't want that, and E has never ever done this, until now with
> > > 0.22.11.
> > 
> > I used to do that all the time, with semi transparent terminal windows
> > that over lapped or other cases where I was re writing in text I went
> > back to click to focus years ago though.
> 
> If you use focus follow mouse, how does it or you get to decide if input
> goes to the window on top or below?
> With click to focus, sure, but without, how can E know that you want to type
> under the current window?
> 

when mouse enters or exits the window (events from the xserver). that is how e
decides to focus it or not.

> In what I'm seeing, some windows have higher priority and steal input even
> if they're below the window on top that I'm trying to write in.

either mouse is entering and exiting... or an app is explicitly setting or
stealing the focus. apps can do this. the enter/exit may be happening due to
"fake invisible" windows/rectangles being used to cover areas not covered by
windows to direct input to the one big canvas that is the screen for e's
compositor. there may have been a bug in it that messed up these rects OR
perhaps there were stray "0 0 0 0" rectangles (transparent rects but visible to
input, so color rgba is 0 0 0 0). if it was this then the bug has since been
fixed in 0.22 for sure.

> Marc
> -- 
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/  
> 
> --
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Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing

[Daniel Kasak]

It's more likely that you've received a kernel upgrade that's broken
resuming from suspension. I've have the bitter experience of a long line of
integrated Intel GPUs, and they have NEVER been stable resuming from
suspension for me. Since the meltdown / spectre patches landed, that seems
to have gotten worse, but it might just be that Intel broke things for
older GPUs when adding support for newer ones in 4.15 / 4.16. It's a bit of
a stretch to say that this instability resuming from suspension makes your
laptop "not usable for work any more". Anyway, the moral of the story is to
buy quality parts with stable drivers. I guarantee you that I'll never buy
a laptop with an integrated intel GPU ( unfortunately my workplaces keep
giving them to me ). If you want to rage at someone for your instability,
go to intel-...@lists.freedesktop.org and tell them about it ...

Dan

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 3:11 PM, Marc MERLIN  wrote:

> On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 03:04:03PM +1000, Daniel Kasak wrote:
> > This is probably a driver issue, and not E.
>
> That what Raster said when I first reported this, I believe him, but at the
> end of the day, it doesn't matter.
> 1) E changed to do new more fancy stuff I didn't need.
> 2) It triggers bugs in Xorg or the intel driver, or god knows what.
> 3) My laptop becomes not usable for work anymore
> ...
> 5) !profit
>
> I realize that Raster wants to keep it fun for himself and add more
> features
> and eye candy, I don't blame him.
> But as an end user, I really don't need this, I just need an E that will
> work without any extra features compared to the many many so many features
> it already has, many I probably don't even know.
> Stablizing a branch is not fun work, but it's essential to software,
> especially something as "mustn't fail" and important as a WM.
>
> Marc
> --
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" -
> A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking
> Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/
>
> 
> --
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Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing

[Marc MERLIN]

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 03:04:03PM +1000, Daniel Kasak wrote:
> This is probably a driver issue, and not E.

That what Raster said when I first reported this, I believe him, but at the
end of the day, it doesn't matter.
1) E changed to do new more fancy stuff I didn't need.
2) It triggers bugs in Xorg or the intel driver, or god knows what.
3) My laptop becomes not usable for work anymore
...
5) !profit

I realize that Raster wants to keep it fun for himself and add more features
and eye candy, I don't blame him.
But as an end user, I really don't need this, I just need an E that will
work without any extra features compared to the many many so many features
it already has, many I probably don't even know.
Stablizing a branch is not fun work, but it's essential to software,
especially something as "mustn't fail" and important as a WM.

Marc
-- 
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Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/  

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Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing

[Daniel Kasak]

This is probably a driver issue, and not E.

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 1:13 PM, Dave  wrote:

>  In the year 2018, of the month of May, on the 9th day, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > Last week, I show up for a work meeting, I open my laptop, everything is
> > hosed/hung. I try to restart E, it won't restart. I forget why but that
> > time I actually had to restart X. Time lost, people looking at me.
>
>  Just confirming that I have a similar problem with E22.  Enlightenment is
> freezing up when I resume from suspend.  Problem is, it doesn't trigger
> right
> away.  I can suspend and then resume immediately, and things are OK.  I
> usually have to leave the laptop suspended for a few hours before the issue
> will trigger.
>
>  Haven't reported it because I've been too lazy to get more info from a
> backtrace, and because I wasn't sure if it was issues with the driver
> and/or
> Xorg.  Guess I'll have to get around to it.  Would be nice to have suspend
> properly working again.
>
>  dave
>
>
> 
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Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing

[Dave]

 In the year 2018, of the month of May, on the 9th day, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> Last week, I show up for a work meeting, I open my laptop, everything is
> hosed/hung. I try to restart E, it won't restart. I forget why but that
> time I actually had to restart X. Time lost, people looking at me.

 Just confirming that I have a similar problem with E22.  Enlightenment is
freezing up when I resume from suspend.  Problem is, it doesn't trigger right
away.  I can suspend and then resume immediately, and things are OK.  I
usually have to leave the laptop suspended for a few hours before the issue
will trigger.

 Haven't reported it because I've been too lazy to get more info from a
backtrace, and because I wasn't sure if it was issues with the driver and/or
Xorg.  Guess I'll have to get around to it.  Would be nice to have suspend
properly working again.

 dave


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Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[Florian Schaefer]

Hi everyone,

sorry for jumping into the discussion so suddenly. :-)

On 10.05.18 01:12, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
[...]
>> Ok, so basically you are confirming that 
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/GFht7beUYWbobxpP6
>> is a bug in 0.21.11 and that 
> 
> oh wit. now i see it.. as your mouse goes over "Terminal" it focused "apps
> - ..." ... the pointer should/would focus the window it is over, even if that
> window is partly obscured by something on top.
> 
>> 1) I'm the first one to see it, maybe because no one is using that
>> release with focus follow mouse?
>>
>> 2) it's not going to get fixed because 0.21.x is a dead branch
> 
> correct. the answer is "use 0.22". we don't have the manpower to support
> multiple stable branches going back in time. we maintain one (the last release
> stable branch). :(
[...]

I'd just like to confirm that I observe a similar behavior here since
some weeks perhaps. I'm currently using efl and e 0.22 recompiled from
GIT on April 22nd.

Basically I see the same behavior. Interestingly only Firefox (version
56 in my case) seems to steal the focus from the top windows. And also
only with some applications (e.g. FoxitReader) on top and not strictly
always reproducible. Still, this is really unnerving as I tend to close
my windows using keyboard shortcuts mostly and I always end up closing
the Firefox beneath instead of the intended application...

Cheers,
Florian

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Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[Marc MERLIN]

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 09:32:03AM +0930, Simon Lees wrote:
> 
> 
> On 09/05/18 23:50, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> > On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 11:16:52AM +0200, Jérémy Zurcher wrote:
> >> Hello Marc,
> >>
> >> I don't like that default behaviour either.
> >> but it's very easy to disable :
> >>   Settings -> Windows -> window focus -> Click window to focus
> > 
> > Yeah, thanks for that workaround, I could do this if I had to.
> > 
> > However, sorry if I'm being dense here:
> > I've had focus follow mouse for literally 20 years.
> > I've never had my mouse pointer focus a window underneath the window I'm
> > pointing on.
> > I sure don't want that, and E has never ever done this, until now with
> > 0.22.11.
> 
> I used to do that all the time, with semi transparent terminal windows
> that over lapped or other cases where I was re writing in text I went
> back to click to focus years ago though.

If you use focus follow mouse, how does it or you get to decide if input
goes to the window on top or below?
With click to focus, sure, but without, how can E know that you want to type
under the current window?

In what I'm seeing, some windows have higher priority and steal input even
if they're below the window on top that I'm trying to write in.

Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/  

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Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[Simon Lees]

On 09/05/18 23:50, Marc MERLIN wrote:
> On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 11:16:52AM +0200, Jérémy Zurcher wrote:
>> Hello Marc,
>>
>> I don't like that default behaviour either.
>> but it's very easy to disable :
>>   Settings -> Windows -> window focus -> Click window to focus
> 
> Yeah, thanks for that workaround, I could do this if I had to.
> 
> However, sorry if I'm being dense here:
> I've had focus follow mouse for literally 20 years.
> I've never had my mouse pointer focus a window underneath the window I'm
> pointing on.
> I sure don't want that, and E has never ever done this, until now with
> 0.22.11.

I used to do that all the time, with semi transparent terminal windows
that over lapped or other cases where I was re writing in text I went
back to click to focus years ago though.

-- 

Simon Lees (Simotek)http://simotek.net

Emergency Update Team   keybase.io/simotek
SUSE Linux   Adelaide Australia, UTC+10:30
GPG Fingerprint: 5B87 DB9D 88DC F606 E489 CEC5 0922 C246 02F0 014B

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Re: [e-users] E versionning and testing

[Marc MERLIN]

I'll change the title for the different discussion.

First a question: does the version number mean what I think it means, or
does it really not mean much?
My guess/expectation is that 
0.21.0 start with new features
0.21.x gets tweaks and bug fixes
0.21.11 is the last from that featureset branch and the most stable of that 
branch (at least ideally)

0.22.0 start over with brand new features and bugs
etc..

Does that sound correct?

> > 1) never had time to even get anything building until today
> > 2) 0.22 has too many different bugs for me to want to keep trying to use
> > it. 
> 
> well then we are at an impasse. nothing is going to change or be fixed because
> there is no way to know what to change or why, so you will be on 0.21 forever
> and we'll move on. sorry. we've been through this before. :(
 
We have. The problem here is that I've literally never, not once,
upgraded E because I wanted new features. I've only ever upgraded it
because I absolutely had to for a reason or another (bugs,
incompatibilities).
I'd have stayed with 0.18.5 forever if it weren't for it not working
with chrome anymore, and so forth.
Hell, I'd likely still be on 0.16 if I could ;)
However, every time I've upgraded E, I got unwelcome to very unwelcome
new bugs, making me regret my upgrade :-/

Yes, you're going to hate me for saying that, sorry :)
Basically E has done what I needed for a long time. It's not adding any
features I need (although I'll admit that the pulse sound slider per
window is actually a nice new feature in 0.22).

I know I've come off as complaining and not contributing. Sadly, it's
because my WM has to work, it's not a hobby for me, it's like X, it has
to work because all my other work depends on it.
I actually spend a lot of time contributing patches to projects,
finding bugs, reporting them in details if I can't fix them myself, and
help test the new code. I also maintain my own projects and code. But to
do all this, I need linux, Xorg, and E to work. Neither I'm interested
in beta testing because I don't have another machine I use just to test
them, I only use them on my production machines where they have to just
work.

Last week, I show up for a work meeting, I open my laptop, everything is
hosed/hung. I try to restart E, it won't restart. I forget why but that
time I actually had to restart X. Time lost, people looking at me.
I restart X and chrome and as chrome starts, one tab start blazing noise
and I can't quickly find which one. The E speaker volume slider is
broken on that start, I can't change the volume or mute quickly.
I excuse myself, leave the room, go debug all this outside while looking
like an idiot.

Lesser but not uncommon scenario: I open my laptop in the plane with all
my stuff pre-loaded. If E wedges itself and I can't fix it/restart it
without crashing X (usually I succeed thankfully), I lose all my
preloaded work and then no wifi to recover during the flight, I'm hosed.

So, that's why linux, X, and E just have to work and why I don't to ever
upgrade E unless I must, as it's pretty much been pain and
disappointment every time (except that usually I was also leaving
another version with other pain and other disappointment).
I so so so wish for an E branch that just stabilizes and works forever,
or almost forever. I however know you don't have a release team like
linux with a person responsible for maintaining the 4.9.x kernel for X
years.
But having people follow the bleeding edge and git forever is not a
solution for people like me either. I hope you understand.

In my ideal life, I want neither new features nor new bugs, just fewer
bugs until they're few enough that I can live with them. Until I'm
forced to switch to wayland, or some other chrome comes up with new
stuff that breaks older versions of E and then I'm hosed again.

> 0.22 has this fixed... so either move to 0.22 and try what i suggested or go

but it has new features and new bugs, and I need/want neither :)

> we don't try to put stuff in e or efl that is broken for us - in our testing,
> but not all distros and hardware are the same. they contain different versions
(...)

Yeeh, I totally understand that. I totally understand that the problems
I see may not be E's fault, but they appear after I upgrade E. At work
when stuff breaks, you revert the last thing changed, regardless of
whose fault it really is in the end. Same with E.
To be fair, I tried to upgrade Xorg + intel drivers and all I got for
that effort is that now xscreensaver is unable to turn my screen dark
before locking. Sigh :(  (not E's fault of course)

If I don't get new features I don't need, I won't get new bugs I don't
need either ;)

Makes sense?

Any chance we can have a stable E branch? It's super vexing if I'm
forced to go to 0.22 to get fixes to know bugs in 0.21, and 0.22 is
totally not stable for me, nor is it apparently going to be anytime soon
(and even less so without my helping you, which isn't very realistic due
to what I explained 

Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[Marc MERLIN]

On Thu, May 10, 2018 at 01:12:10AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > Ok, so basically you are confirming that 
> > https://photos.app.goo.gl/GFht7beUYWbobxpP6
> > is a bug in 0.21.11 and that 
> 
> oh wit. now i see it.. as your mouse goes over "Terminal" it focused "apps
> - ..." ... the pointer should/would focus the window it is over, even if that
> window is partly obscured by something on top.
 
Thanks for confirming, as well as the other questions.

> you shouldn't. e is like your favorite browser there - chrome. you cant' use
> configs too new for the browser (i've hit it before thanks to rsync :)) 
> configs
> are one way upgrades. you could manually downgrade configs. it's possible with
> some time and effort using the eet tool. but older code doesn't know how to
> downgrade config from some e version in the future it knows nothing about.
 
Thanks for confirming. So basically any downgrade, even a .1 downgrade,
.e will detect it and delete the entire profile. Correct?

> > 5) if my profile is going to get lost, can I at least somehow backup all
> > my saved window settings, which literally take me 30 to 45mn to
> > painstakenly recreate one by one?
> 
> yes. eet. tool. you can decode/ecode config from the files to text files, edit
> them, splice them together then encode/insert them again.

I'll see which one is less pain/time lost, thanks.
But first I have to find which 0.21 does not have that bug, given that
0.22 is mostly unusable for me (details in upcoming message).

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   | PGP 7F55D5F27AAF9D08

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Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[Carsten Haitzler]

On Wed, 9 May 2018 07:57:56 -0700 Marc MERLIN  said:

> On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 11:31:30PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > > I don't want this either.
> > > I want the window under to stay under and not exist as far as focus and
> > > input are concerned, the way E has behaved for me for literally 20 years
> > > now.
> > 
> > e never behaved that way. if you have pointer focus the window the pointer
> > was over would get focused. always. you could have it autoraise or not, but
> > you're imagining things because i never wrote any such feature like this.
> > no wm i have ever seen does this either. :)
> 
> Ok, so basically you are confirming that 
> https://photos.app.goo.gl/GFht7beUYWbobxpP6
> is a bug in 0.21.11 and that 

oh wit. now i see it.. as your mouse goes over "Terminal" it focused "apps
- ..." ... the pointer should/would focus the window it is over, even if that
window is partly obscured by something on top.

> 1) I'm the first one to see it, maybe because no one is using that
> release with focus follow mouse?
> 
> 2) it's not going to get fixed because 0.21.x is a dead branch

correct. the answer is "use 0.22". we don't have the manpower to support
multiple stable branches going back in time. we maintain one (the last release
stable branch). :(

> 3) Is it a known bug that got fixed in 0.22 or we don't even know what the
> bug was and how it got fixed/went away?

i never saw it. you may be unlucky and happen to have a situation that brings it
out, but as part of wayland work there has been also work with event areas etc.
and something for wayland may have broken this etc. but it has since been
fixed... in 0.22 :)

> Related questions:
> 4) if I start building 0.21.10, .9, .8 until the introduced
> bug goes away, am I going to lose my ~/.e profile and all my settings
> every time, or is it at least backwards compatible if I stay within
> 0.21?

you shouldn't. e is like your favorite browser there - chrome. you cant' use
configs too new for the browser (i've hit it before thanks to rsync :)) configs
are one way upgrades. you could manually downgrade configs. it's possible with
some time and effort using the eet tool. but older code doesn't know how to
downgrade config from some e version in the future it knows nothing about.

> 5) if my profile is going to get lost, can I at least somehow backup all
> my saved window settings, which literally take me 30 to 45mn to
> painstakenly recreate one by one?

yes. eet. tool. you can decode/ecode config from the files to text files, edit
them, splice them together then encode/insert them again.

> Thanks,
> Marc
> -- 
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   | PGP
> 7F55D5F27AAF9D08
> 


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[Marc MERLIN]

On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 11:31:30PM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > I don't want this either.
> > I want the window under to stay under and not exist as far as focus and
> > input are concerned, the way E has behaved for me for literally 20 years
> > now.
> 
> e never behaved that way. if you have pointer focus the window the pointer was
> over would get focused. always. you could have it autoraise or not, but you're
> imagining things because i never wrote any such feature like this. no wm i 
> have
> ever seen does this either. :)

Ok, so basically you are confirming that 
https://photos.app.goo.gl/GFht7beUYWbobxpP6
is a bug in 0.21.11 and that 

1) I'm the first one to see it, maybe because no one is using that
release with focus follow mouse?

2) it's not going to get fixed because 0.21.x is a dead branch

3) Is it a known bug that got fixed in 0.22 or we don't even know what the
bug was and how it got fixed/went away?

Related questions:
4) if I start building 0.21.10, .9, .8 until the introduced
bug goes away, am I going to lose my ~/.e profile and all my settings
every time, or is it at least backwards compatible if I stay within
0.21?

5) if my profile is going to get lost, can I at least somehow backup all
my saved window settings, which literally take me 30 to 45mn to
painstakenly recreate one by one?

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   | PGP 7F55D5F27AAF9D08

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Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[Carsten Haitzler]

On Tue, 8 May 2018 20:02:35 -0700 Marc MERLIN  said:

> Hi Raster, thanks for the answers.
> 
> On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 11:12:33AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > yes. pointer focus will focus windows under others. as per video. that is
> > intended. i use it all the time. i like it. mostly windows under others are
> > only minimally obscured. if i dont want it behind it alt+click to raise to
> > the front.
>  
> Oh my, that's a big change. I really don't want this.
> I don't want the behaviour at all. How do I get a window under my active
> window to never take pointer focus?

don't use pointer focus? use click to focus?

> > if you want it to RAISE there is another feature called autoraise. enable
> > that. then it'll focus and raise... use them together if that is what you
> > prefer. autoraise also can work with click to focus. :) "Raise windows on
> > mouse over"" is the checkbox under window focus settings.
> 
> I don't want this either.
> I want the window under to stay under and not exist as far as focus and
> input are concerned, the way E has behaved for me for literally 20 years
> now.

e never behaved that way. if you have pointer focus the window the pointer was
over would get focused. always. you could have it autoraise or not, but you're
imagining things because i never wrote any such feature like this. no wm i have
ever seen does this either. :)

> How do I get back to that state? I did nothing to get out of it, but
> maybe something changed that I don't understand.
> 
> Thanks,
> Marc
> -- 
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet
> cooking Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   | PGP
> 7F55D5F27AAF9D08
> 


-- 
- Codito, ergo sum - "I code, therefore I am" --
Carsten Haitzler - ras...@rasterman.com


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Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[Marc MERLIN]

On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 11:16:52AM +0200, Jérémy Zurcher wrote:
> Hello Marc,
> 
> I don't like that default behaviour either.
> but it's very easy to disable :
>   Settings -> Windows -> window focus -> Click window to focus

Yeah, thanks for that workaround, I could do this if I had to.

However, sorry if I'm being dense here:
I've had focus follow mouse for literally 20 years.
I've never had my mouse pointer focus a window underneath the window I'm
pointing on.
I sure don't want that, and E has never ever done this, until now with
0.22.11.

Is it a bug, or is it a setting I missed somehow?

Thanks,
Marc
-- 
"A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
Microsoft is to operating systems 
   what McDonalds is to gourmet cooking
Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   | PGP 7F55D5F27AAF9D08

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Re: [e-users] problem with input focus and window layering in E 0.21.11

[Jérémy Zurcher]

Hello Marc,

I don't like that default behaviour either.
but it's very easy to disable :
  Settings -> Windows -> window focus -> Click window to focus

On Tuesday 08 May 2018  20:02, Marc MERLIN wrote :
> Hi Raster, thanks for the answers.
> 
> On Wed, May 09, 2018 at 11:12:33AM +0900, Carsten Haitzler wrote:
> > yes. pointer focus will focus windows under others. as per video. that is
> > intended. i use it all the time. i like it. mostly windows under others are
> > only minimally obscured. if i dont want it behind it alt+click to raise to 
> > the
> > front.
>  
> Oh my, that's a big change. I really don't want this.
> I don't want the behaviour at all. How do I get a window under my active
> window to never take pointer focus?
> 
> > if you want it to RAISE there is another feature called autoraise. enable 
> > that.
> > then it'll focus and raise... use them together if that is what you prefer.
> > autoraise also can work with click to focus. :) "Raise windows on mouse 
> > over""
> > is the checkbox under window focus settings.
> 
> I don't want this either.
> I want the window under to stay under and not exist as far as focus and
> input are concerned, the way E has behaved for me for literally 20 years
> now.
> 
> How do I get back to that state? I did nothing to get out of it, but
> maybe something changed that I don't understand.
> 
> Thanks,
> Marc
> -- 
> "A mouse is a device used to point at the xterm you want to type in" - A.S.R.
> Microsoft is to operating systems 
>    what McDonalds is to gourmet 
> cooking
> Home page: http://marc.merlins.org/   | PGP 
> 7F55D5F27AAF9D08
> 
> --
> Check out the vibrant tech community on one of the world's most
> engaging tech sites, Slashdot.org! http://sdm.link/slashdot
> ___
> enlightenment-users mailing list
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--- Hell'O from Yverdoom

Jérémy (jeyzu)

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