[EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[brucedp via EV]

Blaming EVs 4clogging hov/carpool lanes> toll$ will ri$e

http://www.mercurynews.com/mr-roadshow/ci_26822022/roadshow-california-test-fees-number-miles-driven
Roadshow: California to test mileage-based fees
By Gary Richards  11/02/2014

[image  
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site568/2014/1101/20141101__teslaxc~1.JPG
John Glenney, 62, of Lexington, Ky., drove his Tesla Model S across the
United States using only the company's Supercharging stations. (Bay Area
News Group)
]

Q Will you please explain how the new law Gov. Jerry Brown just signed that
will charge drivers in California for every mile a car drives will work?
When will this go into effect?

Betty Weldon


A Don't panic, for nothing is going to happen overnight. A few weeks ago
Brown signed into law the first test of a proposal to charge drivers by the
number of miles driven. The bill creates a panel to oversee a pilot project
that could be in place by 2018. California now becomes the largest state to
consider charging VMT fees (for vehicle miles traveled).

Details have yet to be worked out, but Oregon will soon be testing a VMT fee
beginning July 1. Details on that program:

 It applies only to vehicles that get 55 mpg (electric and select plug-in
hybrids) and are model 2015 or newer.

 Oregon drivers would pay 1.5 cents for every mile they travel in the state.

 The 5,000 drivers are all volunteers.

 This will not replace Oregon's state gas tax, but will be another way to
collect road fees.

Officials in other states are also looking at VMT fees and they'll all be
watching California, where 17 percent of the nation's car sales take place.

Why the push to another way to pay? Gas use has declined steadily since 2005
as fuel-efficient and alternative energy cars have flourished. A decade ago,
Californians consumed nearly 16 billion gallons of gas annually. That figure
dropped to 14.5 billion last year. And the state gas tax has not been raised
in 21 years.


Q Why are only gas-type vehicles being taxed and not electric or hybrids?
All of us use the same roads, and it seems only right that all should
participate equally in their upkeep. Am I missing something here?

Barbara Smith
Fremont


A You make a good point, and that is what a VMT fee would rectify. The idea
is that since hybrids and electric cars pay less in taxes, a tax based on
the number of miles driven would make them pay their fair share.


Q How about doing a report on how electric vehicles are clogging up carpool
lanes? Before, a carpool lane was used for two or more plus motorcycles and
transit buses. But now it is also for electric vehicles with carpool
stickers, which defeats the purpose of a carpool lane because it has almost
become a regular lane. Do electric vehicle owners need a lane specifically
for them?

Alexis Pedroza
Patterson

A They'll have it until 2019, when this perk will end, unless the
Legislature again extends it, as it has three times. As of Sept. 23, the DMV
has issued the 55,000-maximum green decals allowed by law, and 15,000 more
will be available Jan. 1. Applications for green stickers will continue to
be accepted at this time, but new ones cannot be issued until after Jan. 1.
And 57,914 white decals have been given out. There is no maximum for them.

Over the past four years California drivers have purchased more than 100,000
plug-in electrical vehicles. Bottom line: Carpool lanes will continue to jam
up. And when solo drivers can buy their way into more diamond lanes, tolls
will rise to keep traffic in those lanes moving.
[© mercurynews.com]




For EVLN posts use:
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http://www.citizen-times.com/story/opinion/2014/11/03/reasons-drive-electric/18386219/
5 reasons to drive electric

http://www.theautofuture.com/2014/11/01/nissan-testing-v2h-technology-leaf-home-charging-units/
Nissan Begins Testing V2H Technology with Leaf-to-Home Charging Units

http://insideevs.com/usage-charging-stations-british-columbia-doubles-august-2013-august-2014/
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+
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 8, 2014, at 8:57 AM, tomw via EV  wrote:

> A gps based system could report
> only total miles traveled to protect those concerned with others knowing
> where they drive.

Could it? Sure, in theory. Would it? In this day and age? Who're you trying to 
kid?

*You* may be fine with the idea, but I don't think anybody else will be.

And it wouldn't take much at all for it to be subject to gross abuse. Why 
bother with automated radar cameras when you can just automatically ticket 
people whenever and wherever based on GPS data? And good luck if you happen to 
get stopped behind somebody doing a drug buy or picking up a prostitute in the 
worng part of town; your GPS data is going to make you a suspect, as well -- 
and you may well never see the light of day again if you're the car a drive-by 
shooter speeds around.

That's all before we get to questions of less-than-honest cops using the data 
for blackmail or stalking or the like. Maybe you're a conservative Republican 
candidate for office who stops once a week at a gay bar? Maybe you're that cute 
cooed who got a ticket from the creeper cop? Maybe you're the plumber who made 
a mess un-clogging the toilet?

We've already seen the beginnings of this with NSA agents doing their own 
supercharged cyberstalking. And now you want to make it trivial for any state 
trooper to do the same?

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[tomw via EV]

/"There's another aspect to this: how is the government to know how many
in-state miles you've driven? The only feasible way is with GPS trackers in
every car, something horrifically unconscionable. "/
I don't see what is so horrific about this.  A gps based system could report
only total miles traveled to protect those concerned with others knowing
where they drive.  Seems the most fair way is to tax all vehicles the same
way. I'd tax all vehicles based on miles driven and vehicle weight.



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

And don't
 forget plug-in Hybrids.   They can go on out of state or in state, use 
gasoline (and pay gas tax), use electricity (and potentially be taxed 
via odometer also, resulting
in doubly taxed, no taxed or any combination therein.

>Not really! The government must collect taxes to pay for roads. Previously it 
>was done by taxing fuel. You can tax electricity to pay for roads because how 
>would you know which part >went into the vehicle. So they have to devise 
>another way


Not previously.   It's STILL done that way.   There isn't a damn thing wrong 
with the current system.If they want more money, just raise the gas tax.  
 If they are too chicken to do that, then they can just accept the consequences.

Adding some stupid tax on cars that get more than 55 mpg or EV's is a damn drop 
in the bucket as far as revenue goes.   This isn't about revenue.   It's about 
something else.

I
 want to stress that the whole thing is ridiculous.   Even if you doubly taxed 
every single EV it would be a drop in the ocean for actual tax 
revenues.

The whole 
"fairness" thing is a giant red herring devised by a dozen people in the
 dept of Transportation in Oregon,   (As if the public was ever 
clammoring for taxing electric cars ) This group originally formed about
 13 years ago, to get a 2 million dollar Bush-era grant to try and tax 
people for driving during rush hour...so rich people could drive 
unimpeded without the riff raff clogging up "their" freeways.The did
 a pilot study with GPS installed and they did their stupid study and used the 
money.  then instead of just disbanding,  they need to keep the funding so they 
tried to get it 
expanded and the public overwhelmingly said "NO" to GPS.   Now their 
cushy jobs were at risk so they dusted off the same study to do try and 
foist the same thing on electric cars and got more tax money.   But 
nobody wants a GPS in their car.   And the shennanigans at the NSA have 
made this even more politically difficult.   So now they are desperately
 lobbying to keep the funding coming and using the "crumbling 
infrastructure arguments and trying to get the public mad about EV 
cars...yeah right.   I'd guess 90% of the public doesn't even realize 
there is a tax on gasolineand probably only 1%  have a clue about the 
amounts.   Because they never actually pay a bill.

So this whole thing is about job 
security of a few select people who have already spent millions of 
dollars of tax payer money to collect a few thousand dollars in tax.   They
 bombard  state governments all over the nation with fear mongering 
studies indicating drastically falling revenues over the next 10 
years..and our elected representatives are wetting themselves with math 
and chart anxiety that they don't even understand.   The Oregon group 
keeps pounding into their ears that EV drivers will destroy our nations 
infrastructureSo they create task forces that they can blame if 
anything bad happens.

Also because 
there is no such thing as "math" at our nations law schools, these same 
geniuses will spend billions of dollars to figure out how to generate 
millions in EV-taxes.

No joke.   It's not about revenue

in 2012 their pilot program cost the taxpayer $1,515,467.
It brought in a whopping $2,840 in tax

Their
 NEW 5000 volunteer program allows 1500 gas vehicle which get LESS than 
17 mpg to pay a tax equivalent to 19 mpg.  In other words it creates a 
SUBSIDY FOR GAS GUZZLERS SO THEY PAY LESS TAX

And here we are..



Source 
http://www.nascio.org/awards/nominations2014/2014/2014OR4-Oregon-ODOT%20-%202014%20Road%20Usage%20Charge%20Program.pdf
and 
http://www.oregon.gov/ODOT/HWY/RUFPP/docs/SB_810_Enrolled_Road_User_Charges_%282013%29.pdf
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Ben Goren via EV]

On Nov 7, 2014, at 8:08 PM, Rush Dougherty  wrote:

>> Put simply, the government has no business knowing how
>> much I drive where and when.
> 
> So I guess you take the battery out of your cellphone when you're driving...

Getting a bit far afield, are we? The topic of discussion is the government 
explicitly tracking electric (and other) vehicle usage. That's a far cry from 
what top secret espionage programs and the like are or could be capable of 
doing.

As of yet, there's still no solid reason to suspect that the NSA or anybody 
else is actively aware of cellphone locations, though, of course, that ability 
exists in the system. At the very least, unless you're a "person of interest," 
it's at least going to take a warrant to track you.

But if things get much worse...I'd likely ditch the cellphone altogether, save 
possibly for a no-plan removed-battery one in the glovebox for 9-1-1. I hardly 
ever make or receive calls out and about as it is. And I'm certainly not buying 
any car with OnStar or Lojack or some other tracking system built into the very 
vehicle.

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Rush Dougherty via EV]

Ben wrote -
> Put simply, the government has no business knowing how
> much I drive where and when.

So I guess you take the battery out of your cellphone when you're driving...

Rush
Tucson AZ




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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Lee Hart via EV]

Lawrence Winiarski via EV wrote:

Coming soon. More stuff we need to discourage, because in some way it reduces 
tax revenues


Thanks for my laugh of the day, Lawrence! :-)

It reminds me of "A Christmas Car", a parody of Dickens' "A Christmas 
Carol" I wrote years ago. http://www.evdl.org/pages/xmascar.html

--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Ben Goren via EV]

There's another aspect to this: how is the government to know how many in-state 
miles you've driven? The only feasible way is with GPS trackers in every car, 
something horrifically unconscionable.

Yes, you could go off odometer readings, but those will fail spectacularly on 
two counts: first, miles driven out of state would have to be exempt (and 
possibly paid to other states; second, you'd have people fiddling with the 
odometers even more than they already do. Put simply, the government has no 
business knowing how much I drive where and when.

As far as I'm concerned, the correct near-term solution is to increase gas 
taxes as necessary to make up for the shortfalls with decreased sales. This 
will encourage people to switch to electric all that much faster, and also make 
the gas burners pay for the increased environmental damage they cause.

When enough people are driving electrics that there's no more blood to squeeze 
out of gas taxes, the proper thing to do is to shift funding to the general 
fund. We don't have special revenue streams for things like libraries and 
police and fire and schools and agricultural inspection and park maintenance 
and all the rest, even though almost every such government service inevitably 
only directly benefits a small segment of the population. Rather, we recognize 
that these are parts of an healthy society, and so we all share the costs, even 
for those things we don't personally directly benefit from. Even if you don't 
own a car, you still benefit from well-maintained roadways: delivery vehicles 
can make their deliveries, emergency vehicles can get to you, public 
transportation works for you, and so on. The roads are the perfect example of 
something that society as an whole should pay for, rather than just those who 
happen to be on the roads at any given point in time.

Cheers,

b&
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Lawrence Winiarski via EV]

Coming soon.   More stuff we need to discourage, because in some way it reduces 
tax revenues


* high recycle households. 

* healthy people.  

* gardeners

* wells and septic tanks
* solar panels
* bicyclers
* joggers
* people who don't consume alcohol and tobacco
It's obvious these people aren't paying their fair share and refuse to join the 
lowest common denominator.
Now, these tax avoiders, might claim that their actions actually 
"benefit" society and as such don't need to be taxed, but these sorts of 
win-win arguments are self-serving
and therefore wrong.   No one must be allowed to win.  

If we all work together we can create new intrusive technologies for tax 
collection...creating new jobs in state goverment in the process...which will 
further require new taxes
to pay for, in a never ending spiral of job creation.

As an added benefit, these new intrusive technologies will benefit global 
marketing divisions with all sorts of new consumer data, and help our good 
friends at the NSA stop the non-taxpaying-terrorists.
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 7 Nov 2014 at 13:15, Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

> Currently EV's get a free ride on the roads but gas cars get a free
> ride on the environmental damage they cause. 

This is the point I was trying to make when I said "by taking better care of
the environment, EV drivers are SAVING [the states] tax dollars."  You said 
it more succinctly.

Today there's an undercurrent of anti-environmentalism in the US, a backlash 
if you will.  This extends into government in many areas.  Lee's assessment 
that they "make the tax a huge 'in your face' lump sum payment [to 
discourage people] from buying an EV" is right on.  

I wonder if at least some of the diminution in fuel tax revenue isn't just a 
product of a weak economy and increased unemployment.  I don't have any 
numbers, but I'd think that's a more significant contributor than the 
relatively small number of people with EVs and more-efficient ICEVs.

Thus I suspect that revenue loss is only part of the reason for this 
proposal, and in some cases maybe not even the primary one.  Another major 
reason for it might well be to deliberately punish and discourage 
"greenies."  

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

The fair answer is simple.  Currently EV's get a free ride on the roads but
gas cars get a free ride on the environmental damage they cause.  This
disparity should be eliminated ON BOTH SIDES.  That is, for every dollar of
road tax you add to the EV, add the same Dollar to the gas tax for the
environment.

Done, Fair, move on.

Bob, WB4APR

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of brucedp5 via EV
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2014 5:08 AM
To: ev@lists.evdl.org
Subject: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@
plugins



Blaming EVs 4clogging hov/carpool lanes> toll$ will ri$e

http://www.mercurynews.com/mr-roadshow/ci_26822022/roadshow-california-test-fees-number-miles-driven
Roadshow: California to test mileage-based fees By Gary Richards  11/02/2014

[image
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site568/2014/1101/20141101__teslaxc~1.JPG
John Glenney, 62, of Lexington, Ky., drove his Tesla Model S across the
United States using only the company's Supercharging stations. (Bay Area
News Group) ]

Q Will you please explain how the new law Gov. Jerry Brown just signed that
will charge drivers in California for every mile a car drives will work?
When will this go into effect?

Betty Weldon


A Don't panic, for nothing is going to happen overnight. A few weeks ago
Brown signed into law the first test of a proposal to charge drivers by the
number of miles driven. The bill creates a panel to oversee a pilot project
that could be in place by 2018. California now becomes the largest state to
consider charging VMT fees (for vehicle miles traveled).

Details have yet to be worked out, but Oregon will soon be testing a VMT fee
beginning July 1. Details on that program:

 It applies only to vehicles that get 55 mpg (electric and select plug-in
hybrids) and are model 2015 or newer.

 Oregon drivers would pay 1.5 cents for every mile they travel in the state.

 The 5,000 drivers are all volunteers.

 This will not replace Oregon's state gas tax, but will be another way to
collect road fees.

Officials in other states are also looking at VMT fees and they'll all be
watching California, where 17 percent of the nation's car sales take place.

Why the push to another way to pay? Gas use has declined steadily since 2005
as fuel-efficient and alternative energy cars have flourished. A decade ago,
Californians consumed nearly 16 billion gallons of gas annually. That figure
dropped to 14.5 billion last year. And the state gas tax has not been raised
in 21 years.


Q Why are only gas-type vehicles being taxed and not electric or hybrids?
All of us use the same roads, and it seems only right that all should
participate equally in their upkeep. Am I missing something here?

Barbara Smith
Fremont


A You make a good point, and that is what a VMT fee would rectify. The idea
is that since hybrids and electric cars pay less in taxes, a tax based on
the number of miles driven would make them pay their fair share.


Q How about doing a report on how electric vehicles are clogging up carpool
lanes? Before, a carpool lane was used for two or more plus motorcycles and
transit buses. But now it is also for electric vehicles with carpool
stickers, which defeats the purpose of a carpool lane because it has almost
become a regular lane. Do electric vehicle owners need a lane specifically
for them?

Alexis Pedroza
Patterson

A They'll have it until 2019, when this perk will end, unless the
Legislature again extends it, as it has three times. As of Sept. 23, the DMV
has issued the 55,000-maximum green decals allowed by law, and 15,000 more
will be available Jan. 1. Applications for green stickers will continue to
be accepted at this time, but new ones cannot be issued until after Jan. 1.
And 57,914 white decals have been given out. There is no maximum for them.

Over the past four years California drivers have purchased more than 100,000
plug-in electrical vehicles. Bottom line: Carpool lanes will continue to jam
up. And when solo drivers can buy their way into more diamond lanes, tolls
will rise to keep traffic in those lanes moving.
[© mercurynews.com]




For EVLN posts use:
http://www.evdl.org/archive/index.html#nabble+template%2FNamlServlet.jtp%3Fmacro%3Dsearch_page%26node%3D413529%26query%3Devln+-re%26sort%3Ddate

http://www.citizen-times.com/story/opinion/2014/11/03/reasons-drive-electric/18386219/
5 reasons to drive electric

http://www.theautofuture.com/2014/11/01/nissan-testing-v2h-technology-leaf-home-charging-units/
Nissan Begins Testing V2H Technology with Leaf-to-Home Charging Units

http://insideevs.com/usage-charging-stations-british-columbia-doubles-august-2013-august-2014/
Public British Columbian EVSE Usage Doubles From Aug 2013 To Aug 2014
+
EVLN: SR-Auto bling-tuning of BMW i3 EV


{brucedp.150m.com}



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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Lee Hart via EV]

Paul Dove via EV wrote:

Not really! The government must collect taxes to pay for roads.
Previously it was done by taxing fuel.


I don't think any reasonable person objects to paying taxes to support
our highway infrastructure. But the *way* it's being done with ICEs vs.
EVs violates people's sense of "fair play".

ICEs: Unlike everything else, the taxes on gasoline are "hidden". You
don't get an itemized receipt that shows the amount for fuel, and the
amount for taxes. They "sneak it in" so most people are unaware that
they are paying it. Doing it this way encourages consumption.

EVs: They make the tax a huge "in your face" lump sum payment. That
alarms people, and discourages them from buying an EV.

An additional issue is that many states use fuel taxes as a "cash cow"
that goes into the general fund for all sorts of non-highway-related
uses. People are much less likely to support a tax when they don't know
how the money will be spent.

> You can tax electricity to pay for roads because how would you know
> which part went into the vehicle.

I assume you meant to say you *can't* tax the electricity used for EVs 
separately? But you CAN.


When I lived in Michigan, they required that I pay a sales and USE tax 
on motor vehicle fuel. So I had a separate meter in the garage, that 
showed what I used for EV charging. (It also counted the garage lights, 
but that was trivial in comparison). At first, I had to send a form to 
the state quarterly to pay the use tax. It was tiny; a couple dollars 
every 3 months. Then they changed me to annual filing. Then they said 
"don't' bother -- annual totals under $50 don't need to be paid."



--
A designer knows he has achieved perfection not when there is
nothing left to add, but when there is nothing left to take away.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Rick Beebe via EV]

On 11/07/2014 10:50 AM, Paul Dove via EV wrote:

Not really! The government must collect taxes to pay for roads.
Previously it was done by taxing fuel. You can tax electricity to pay
for roads because how would you know which part went into the
vehicle. So they have to devise another way



The problem is they keep throwing "fair" into the equation and that will 
just make it complicated and expensive. I bet it costs more to collect 
these devised taxes than they gain.


"Fair" says people using the roads should pay for their upkeep whether 
they live here or not. Gas tax works in general because if you're from 
out-of-state but here for any length of time you'll have to buy gas 
here. And if you're a resident traveling elsewhere you'll be buying your 
gas elsewhere to pay for road upkeep there.


I believe you meant to say "can't tax electricity." They could do it by 
requiring separate metering for EVSEs. Complicated and expensive and 
doesn't account for out-of-staters.


Oregon says they're going to charge 1.5cents per mile for miles traveled 
within the state for vehicles that get 55mpg or greater. Complicated and 
expensive to track.


I say let's redefine "fair" a bit to say if you live in the state the 
roads are your responsibility. Virtually every state has some sort of 
semi-regular inspection or registration program. Report the current 
mileage on your car and pay the tax on that (over time would be nice). 
Do away with the gas tax and make EVERYONE pay this way. Quick and easy 
to collect and reasonably fair.


Perhaps we make it apply to vehicles under 6000 pounds and keep the gas 
tax for big trucks. They're the ones that cause the most road damage 
anyway.


Of course tax dodgers would register their vehicles in another state but 
we have that problem now with people trying to avoid property tax.


One reason they won't want to do this is because it would suddenly make 
the tax visible. In my state a 25mpg car will take about 600 gallons to 
drive 15,000 miles and I'll pay $150 in fuel tax (and about $135 in 
sales tax). If they charged me a penny a mile, that same 15,000 miles 
would cost me the same $150 but I would actually see a bill for it. And 
I wouldn't be paying it a couple dollars at a time like I do now. 
Legislators know voters hate that kind of thing.


--Rick
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Cal Frye via EV]

And it can be argued that the purchase subsidy is already recompense for
the relief EVs bring to pollution controls and the like. Whether such
things should be paid for with user fees or more progressive forms of
taxation is a discussion for a whole different forum ;-)

- Cal Frye
> Paul Dove via EV 
> November 7, 2014 at 10:50 AM
> Not really! The government must collect taxes to pay for roads.
> Previously it was done by taxing fuel. You can tax electricity to pay
> for roads because how would you know which part went into the vehicle.
> So they have to devise another way
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
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>
> EVDL Administrator via EV 
> November 7, 2014 at 10:36 AM
> On 7 Nov 2014 at 2:07, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>
>> Why the push to another way to pay? Gas use has declined steadily since 2005
>> as fuel-efficient and alternative energy cars have flourished.
>
> Right, so let's discourage that.  Great.
>
> I see this sort of notion and have to conclude that the US has the world's 
> most (literally) backward governments.  In most countries, they ENCOURAGE 
> use of EVs and high-MPG ICEVs.  Here, we're discouraging them by making them 
> pay an extra tax.  
>
> These state legislators seem to have forgotten that by taking better care of 
> the environment, EV drivers are SAVING them tax dollars.  (As the old saw 
> says, no good deed goes unpunished.)  
>
> I suppose one reason for the legal difference is that most (all?) European 
> nations have laws requiring them to reduce carbon emissions, though how 
> fully they're enforced I don't know. 
>
> I'm preaching to the choir, I suppose.
>
>> Over the past four years California drivers have purchased more than
>> 100,000 plug-in electrical vehicles. Bottom line: Carpool lanes will
>> continue to jam up. 
>
> From the standpoint of encouraging EV adoption, it appears to me that 
> carpool lane access for EVs has been a huge success in CA.  The problem is 
> that it's a self-limiting perquisite.  The more vehicles you let in, the 
> less desirable the carpool lanes are.
>
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
>
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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>
> brucedp5 via EV 
> November 7, 2014 at 5:07 AM
>
> Blaming EVs 4clogging hov/carpool lanes> toll$ will ri$e
>
> http://www.mercurynews.com/mr-roadshow/ci_26822022/roadshow-california-test-fees-number-miles-driven
> Roadshow: California to test mileage-based fees
> By Gary Richards 11/02/2014
>
> [image
> http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site568/2014/1101/20141101__teslaxc~1.JPG
> John Glenney, 62, of Lexington, Ky., drove his Tesla Model S across the
> United States using only the company's Supercharging stations. (Bay Area
> News Group)
> ]
>
> Q Will you please explain how the new law Gov. Jerry Brown just signed
> that
> will charge drivers in California for every mile a car drives will work?
> When will this go into effect?
>
> Betty Weldon
>
>
> A Don't panic, for nothing is going to happen overnight. A few weeks ago
> Brown signed into law the first test of a proposal to charge drivers
> by the
> number of miles driven. The bill creates a panel to oversee a pilot
> project
> that could be in place by 2018. California now becomes the largest
> state to
> consider charging VMT fees (for vehicle miles traveled).
>
> Details have yet to be worked out, but Oregon will soon be testing a
> VMT fee
> beginning July 1. Details on that program:
>
> It applies only to vehicles that get 55 mpg (electric and select plug-in
> hybrids) and are model 2015 or newer.
>
> Oregon drivers would pay 1.5 cents for every mile they travel in the
> state.
>
> The 5,000 drivers are all volunteers.
>
> This will not replace Oregon's state gas tax, but will be another way to
> collect road fees.
>
> Officials in other states are also looking at VMT fees and they'll all be
> watching California, where 17 percent of the nation's car sales take
> place.
>
> Why the push to another way to pay? Gas use has declined steadily
> since 2005
> as fuel-efficient and alternative energy cars have flou

Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[Paul Dove via EV]

Not really! The government must collect taxes to pay for roads. Previously it 
was done by taxing fuel. You can tax electricity to pay for roads because how 
would you know which part went into the vehicle. So they have to devise another 
way

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 7, 2014, at 9:36 AM, EVDL Administrator via EV  
> wrote:
> 
>> On 7 Nov 2014 at 2:07, brucedp5 via EV wrote:
>> 
>> Why the push to another way to pay? Gas use has declined steadily since 2005
>> as fuel-efficient and alternative energy cars have flourished.
> 
> Right, so let's discourage that.  Great.
> 
> I see this sort of notion and have to conclude that the US has the world's 
> most (literally) backward governments.  In most countries, they ENCOURAGE 
> use of EVs and high-MPG ICEVs.  Here, we're discouraging them by making them 
> pay an extra tax.  
> 
> These state legislators seem to have forgotten that by taking better care of 
> the environment, EV drivers are SAVING them tax dollars.  (As the old saw 
> says, no good deed goes unpunished.)  
> 
> I suppose one reason for the legal difference is that most (all?) European 
> nations have laws requiring them to reduce carbon emissions, though how 
> fully they're enforced I don't know. 
> 
> I'm preaching to the choir, I suppose.
> 
>> Over the past four years California drivers have purchased more than
>> 100,000 plug-in electrical vehicles. Bottom line: Carpool lanes will
>> continue to jam up. 
> 
> From the standpoint of encouraging EV adoption, it appears to me that 
> carpool lane access for EVs has been a huge success in CA.  The problem is 
> that it's a self-limiting perquisite.  The more vehicles you let in, the 
> less desirable the carpool lanes are.
> 
> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
> EVDL Administrator
> 
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
> 
> 
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Re: [EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 7 Nov 2014 at 2:07, brucedp5 via EV wrote:

> Why the push to another way to pay? Gas use has declined steadily since 2005
> as fuel-efficient and alternative energy cars have flourished.

Right, so let's discourage that.  Great.

I see this sort of notion and have to conclude that the US has the world's 
most (literally) backward governments.  In most countries, they ENCOURAGE 
use of EVs and high-MPG ICEVs.  Here, we're discouraging them by making them 
pay an extra tax.  

These state legislators seem to have forgotten that by taking better care of 
the environment, EV drivers are SAVING them tax dollars.  (As the old saw 
says, no good deed goes unpunished.)  

I suppose one reason for the legal difference is that most (all?) European 
nations have laws requiring them to reduce carbon emissions, though how 
fully they're enforced I don't know. 

I'm preaching to the choir, I suppose.

> Over the past four years California drivers have purchased more than
> 100,000 plug-in electrical vehicles. Bottom line: Carpool lanes will
> continue to jam up. 

>From the standpoint of encouraging EV adoption, it appears to me that 
carpool lane access for EVs has been a huge success in CA.  The problem is 
that it's a self-limiting perquisite.  The more vehicles you let in, the 
less desirable the carpool lanes are.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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[EVDL] EVLN: CA testing 55+mpge mi-based/VMT road-tax-fees aimed@ plugins

[brucedp5 via EV]

Blaming EVs 4clogging hov/carpool lanes> toll$ will ri$e

http://www.mercurynews.com/mr-roadshow/ci_26822022/roadshow-california-test-fees-number-miles-driven
Roadshow: California to test mileage-based fees
By Gary Richards  11/02/2014

[image  
http://extras.mnginteractive.com/live/media/site568/2014/1101/20141101__teslaxc~1.JPG
John Glenney, 62, of Lexington, Ky., drove his Tesla Model S across the
United States using only the company's Supercharging stations. (Bay Area
News Group)
]

Q Will you please explain how the new law Gov. Jerry Brown just signed that
will charge drivers in California for every mile a car drives will work?
When will this go into effect?

Betty Weldon


A Don't panic, for nothing is going to happen overnight. A few weeks ago
Brown signed into law the first test of a proposal to charge drivers by the
number of miles driven. The bill creates a panel to oversee a pilot project
that could be in place by 2018. California now becomes the largest state to
consider charging VMT fees (for vehicle miles traveled).

Details have yet to be worked out, but Oregon will soon be testing a VMT fee
beginning July 1. Details on that program:

 It applies only to vehicles that get 55 mpg (electric and select plug-in
hybrids) and are model 2015 or newer.

 Oregon drivers would pay 1.5 cents for every mile they travel in the state.

 The 5,000 drivers are all volunteers.

 This will not replace Oregon's state gas tax, but will be another way to
collect road fees.

Officials in other states are also looking at VMT fees and they'll all be
watching California, where 17 percent of the nation's car sales take place.

Why the push to another way to pay? Gas use has declined steadily since 2005
as fuel-efficient and alternative energy cars have flourished. A decade ago,
Californians consumed nearly 16 billion gallons of gas annually. That figure
dropped to 14.5 billion last year. And the state gas tax has not been raised
in 21 years.


Q Why are only gas-type vehicles being taxed and not electric or hybrids?
All of us use the same roads, and it seems only right that all should
participate equally in their upkeep. Am I missing something here?

Barbara Smith
Fremont


A You make a good point, and that is what a VMT fee would rectify. The idea
is that since hybrids and electric cars pay less in taxes, a tax based on
the number of miles driven would make them pay their fair share.


Q How about doing a report on how electric vehicles are clogging up carpool
lanes? Before, a carpool lane was used for two or more plus motorcycles and
transit buses. But now it is also for electric vehicles with carpool
stickers, which defeats the purpose of a carpool lane because it has almost
become a regular lane. Do electric vehicle owners need a lane specifically
for them?

Alexis Pedroza
Patterson

A They'll have it until 2019, when this perk will end, unless the
Legislature again extends it, as it has three times. As of Sept. 23, the DMV
has issued the 55,000-maximum green decals allowed by law, and 15,000 more
will be available Jan. 1. Applications for green stickers will continue to
be accepted at this time, but new ones cannot be issued until after Jan. 1.
And 57,914 white decals have been given out. There is no maximum for them.

Over the past four years California drivers have purchased more than 100,000
plug-in electrical vehicles. Bottom line: Carpool lanes will continue to jam
up. And when solo drivers can buy their way into more diamond lanes, tolls
will rise to keep traffic in those lanes moving.
[© mercurynews.com]




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