Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[ROBERT via EV]

My point was solar hot water collectors do work if the system is designed 
correctly.  A solar hot water collector is 80 -90% efficient where as a PV 
panel is 15-18% at best.  My solar hot water system is a combined hot water 
system and radiant floor heating system.  It works.  A PV system for heating 
would need a large battery backup system to work at night.  A hot concrete slab 
retains the heats for 5 - 6 hrs at night.  The biggest consumers of energy in a 
house are HVAC, Hot Water Heater, Ovens, and Clothes Dryers.  A solar hot water 
system can reduce home heating cost and hot water cost with much higher 
efficiency than a PV system.  In my opinion, a combination PV and hot water 
collector system would be the best.


Your statement "You get full retial value from every photon of sun whether you 
are heating water or using it for other!" is not correct.  For every photon of 
energy that falls on a PV panel, over 85% is not converted to electrical 
energy.  PV panels are not efficient converters of light energy to electricity. 
 Before everyone howls at me.  Fossil fuel conversion to electrical energy is 
not super efficient either.


I don't think Lowes has a hybrid hot water heater for $699.00.  Lowes sales the 
AO Smith brand of hot water heaters.  Their hybrid unit is a good unit with an 
energy rating of approximately $119 per year but with a 9 year tank warranty.  
The cost is about $1500.00.






From: Robert Bruninga 
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 1:17 PM
To: ROBERT
Subject: RE: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)


Your email was hard to read since there 2were no paragraphs, but I get the gyst.



I agree, Thermal solar hot wter heating is dead,dead,dead since about 2005.  
And even then was usless on the family cycle since all therm gain after the 
tank is hot is wasted.



Solar PV grid-tied with a heatpump water heater is the only way to go.  You get 
full retial value from every photon of sun whether you are heating water or 
using it for other!



P.S.  I just looked and Lowes has 50 gal htepupp water heaters for $699.  Wow.

Bob





From: ROBERT [mailto:bhensle...@msn.com<mailto:bhensle...@msn.com>]
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 2:49 PM
To: Robert Bruninga
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)



Robert, I have a similar arrangement with my solar hot water system and hybrid 
hot water heater.  The solar collectors via a water to water heater exchanger 
heats the water in a preheat tank and the water goes to the hybrid hot water 
heater before going to the fixtures.  The preheat tank is a 50 gal standard 
propane hot water heater.  The system is very efficient.  The high efficiency 
is due to system design and lifestyle.  The efficiency by system design is 
obvious.  The efficiency by lifestyle is the interesting part.  Most people use 
hot water in the morning and in the evening.  People get up before the sun 
rises and hit the hot water heavily.  In a system with a standard electric hot 
water heater, before the solar collectors can heat the hot water (sun has not 
come up), the water heater resistance elements reheat the water.  You get no 
gain form the solar system.  The family goes off to work and school.  The sun 
comes up.  The solar collectors maintain the temperature of the hot 
 water during the day.  The family returns home and start hitting the hot 
water.  Again with a standard hot water heater and after sunset, the water 
heater resistance elements reheat the water.  Again no gain from the solar 
system.  This lifestyle is the reason most people are disappointed in a hot 
water solar system.  They see very little energy use decrease because the solar 
is only effective during the day maintaining the heat loss from the hot water 
heaters.  The solar/hybrid system works better.  I keep the hybrid unit in heat 
pump mode only.  This is the most efficient setting.  We get up in the morning 
with 100 gals of hot water.  We hit the hot water heavily.  The hybrid unit 
starts heating the water at a very slow recovery rate and very efficiently.  
The water does not get fully reheated before the sun rises.  The solar heat 
finishes reheating the water and the hybrid unit is shut off (hybrid unit has 
this type of control).  Note: the pump draws water from the bottom of both
  heaters and circulates through the heat exchanges ... very important design 
feature.  The solar system heats the water to 150 F (hybrid unit set point is 
120 F) in both hot water heaters during the day.  Come evening, I have 100 gals 
of 150 F water to wash dishes take showers etc.  The hybrid unit is turned back 
on for the night.  Usually around 12:00 - 1:00 am the hybrid unit will need to 
run to maintain the 120 F water in the hybrid unit.  Typically it takes 1KWHr 
during the night.  Depending on the amount of hot water usage in the morning 
the hybrid un

Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Again, Solar Thermal is dead,dead,dead according to almost all articles I
have seen.



Solar thermal hot water heating is about 75% efficient but ONLY IF 100% of
that heat is used.

Solar PV is only 15% “efficient” but is now at least FIVE TIMES CHEAPER
than a solar water heater for the same square foot of panel.  Bingo that
makes them EQUAL as far as investment is concerned.



My point with the Grid-tie is that you get full retail value for every
“convertible” photon that hits your array no matter whether it is heating
hot water, or once the water is hot, then it goes to the net meter and you
still get full retail value for it.



Plus, even disregarding the 5 times cheaper solar panel than thermal hot
water heating system, and pumps and motors and maintenance, you still get a
TRIPLE in efficiency when the 15% PV panel drives a 300% efficient heatpump
water heater.  So even apples to apples, the 15% is now reaqlly equal to
45% relative to heating water.  But five or more times cheaper and
maintenance free.



The point is with solar thermal, that every SUNY day when the sun has fully
heated the tank by say 1 PM, then the rest of the solar day is producing
ZERO return on ivesment.



Whereas with PV, the extra solar on a sunny day is being banked in your
net-meter at full retail value for use later…



I ikonw this is off-topic for the EV list, but making sure everyone
understands the value of heatpump technology will help with Car heating too.



Hope that clarifies.

Bob



*From:* ROBERT [mailto:bhensle...@msn.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 29, 2017 5:01 PM
*To:* Robert Bruninga; ev@lists.evdl.org
*Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)



My point was solar hot water collectors do work if the system is designed
correctly.  A solar hot water collector is 80 -90% efficient where as a PV
panel is 15-18% at best.  My solar hot water system is a combined hot water
system and radiant floor heating system.  It works.  A PV system for
heating would need a large battery backup system to work at night.  A hot
concrete slab retains the heats for 5 - 6 hrs at night.  The biggest
consumers of energy in a house are HVAC, Hot Water Heater, Ovens, and
Clothes Dryers.  A solar hot water system can reduce home heating cost and
hot water cost with much higher efficiency than a PV system.  In my
opinion, a combination PV and hot water collector system would be the best.



Your statement "You get full retial value from every photon of sun whether
you are heating water or using it for other!" is not correct.  For every
photon of energy that falls on a PV panel, over 85% is not converted to
electrical energy.  PV panels are not efficient converters of light energy
to electricity.  Before everyone howls at me.  Fossil fuel conversion to
electrical energy is not super efficient either.



I don't think Lowes has a hybrid hot water heater for $699.00.  Lowes sales
the AO Smith brand of hot water heaters.  Their hybrid unit is a good unit
with an energy rating of approximately $119 per year but with a 9 year tank
warranty.  The cost is about $1500.00.








--

*From:* Robert Bruninga 
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 29, 2017 1:17 PM
*To:* ROBERT
*Subject:* RE: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)



Your email was hard to read since there 2were no paragraphs, but I get the
gyst.



I agree, Thermal solar hot wter heating is dead,dead,dead since about
2005.  And even then was usless on the family cycle since all therm gain
after the tank is hot is wasted.



Solar PV grid-tied with a heatpump water heater is the only way to go.  You
get full retial value from every photon of sun whether you are heating
water or using it for other!



P.S.  I just looked and Lowes has 50 gal htepupp water heaters for $699.
Wow.

Bob





*From:* ROBERT [mailto:bhensle...@msn.com]
*Sent:* Wednesday, November 29, 2017 2:49 PM
*To:* Robert Bruninga
*Subject:* Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)



Robert, I have a similar arrangement with my solar hot water system and
hybrid hot water heater.  The solar collectors via a water to water heater
exchanger heats the water in a preheat tank and the water goes to the
hybrid hot water heater before going to the fixtures.  The preheat tank is
a 50 gal standard propane hot water heater.  The system is very efficient.
The high efficiency is due to system design and lifestyle.  The efficiency
by system design is obvious.  The efficiency by lifestyle is the
interesting part.  Most people use hot water in the morning and in the
evening.  People get up before the sun rises and hit the hot water
heavily.  In a system with a standard electric hot water heater, before the
solar collectors can heat the hot water (sun has not come up), the water
heater resistance elements reheat the water.  You get no gain form the
solar system.  The family goes off to work and s

Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

AMEN!
When I installed my heatpump wter heater, I kept the old one.  Put them in
series so that the heatpump first heats the 50F incoming city water to
about 100F (intentionally set that low so that the heatpumps is  operating
most efficiently).  Then that water goes into the old electic tank where
the top coil is set to 110F.
So most of the heating is at the very high efficiency of the heatpump
unit.

Wrapped them both in 4" insulation.

And by only setting a final temp of 110F, the wife can still take a HOT
shower, though she is burning through 90% hot water and 10% cold to get
the right temp.  We can do this at this low temperature because of the 100
gallons of hot water available.

Bob
-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of ROBERT via EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 12:05 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: ROBERT
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

You guys are correct about a heat pump being more energy efficiency than a
resistance heating element.  I recently installed a hybrid hot water
heater.  I have an external energy monitor on this circuit.  The hybrid
hot water heater used 1/4 the energy of a standard hot water heater.  With
the tax credit, the heater will pay for itself in 4 years.



From: EV  on behalf of John Lussmyer via EV

Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 9:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: John Lussmyer
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

On Tue Nov 28 20:11:48 PST 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.

The one I just had put in the cabin is better than an electric heater down
to around 0 deg F.
Around here, dropping below freezing is rare event.

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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Actually, backup heat (resistqance heaters) are not a bad thing.  They
allow you to size the heatpump for *most* of ones heating, and letting
resistance do the heavy lift on the coldest nights.

Even in Maryland, the average daytime high even in Jan and Feb is above
40F, though it plunges to the single digits and teens many nights.  But on
average over the 6 omnths season, the "average" temp is well over 40F, so
don't oversize and pay more for a big system when an "average system" will
do augnemnted by some more expensive backup heat.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Peri Hartman via
EV
Sent: Wednesday, November 29, 2017 10:07 AM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: Peri Hartman
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

The issue with a heat pump is sizing, at least when I did my whole house
research. Down to, say, 40F a heat pump will do exceptionally well. As it
gets colder, it takes more work to compress the heat from outside.
>From strictly a performance point of view, that will still always beat a
resistance heater. However, now you need a larger unit. There comes a
point when you need to make a size v efficiency trade off. So, if you
choose a heat pump, make sure it will generate the BTUs you need at your
coldest temperature or supplement it with some resistance heating.

Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 29-Nov-17 1:31:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV
related)

>Heat pump heating is always more efficient than resistive heating
>because the losses in the pump are added to the heat output, so when
>temp delta increases and efficiency drops, you approach the case of the
>resistive heating. Most heat pumps are applied to protect from
>excessive pump operation and wear by adding resistance heating below
>certain amb temps.
>
>
>Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
> Original message From: Alan Arrison via EV
> Date: 11/29/17  6:11 AM  (GMT+02:00) To:
>ev@lists.evdl.org Cc: Alan Arrison  Subject: Re:
>[EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related) Heat
>can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.
>
>Al
>
>
>On 11/28/2017 11:03 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
>>Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
>>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
>>
>>Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps.
>>"How is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the
>>common sense question as well...) Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver,
>>typically 3x to 4x the heat as a resistive heater given the identical
>>wattage input, occasionally even a bit more. They indeed work, whether
>>you believe in the theory or not.
>>
>
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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 29 Nov 2017 at 15:07, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

>  if you choose a heat pump, make sure it will generate the BTUs you
> need at your coldest temperature or supplement it with some resistance
> heating. 

Every home-HVAC heat pump I've ever seen has had supplemental and/or 
"emergency" heat.  They all had resistive electric supplemental heat.  I've 
read more recently about HVAC systems that use fuel gas heat as the 
supplement.

I'd assume (and we all know what that is!) that all production EV heat pumps 
would also include resistive heating.  Very few people will tolerate Yugo-
class heating in their vehicles.  (The infamous Yugo GV ICEV came with a 
pitiful heater.  Owners who complained were told to keep the blower on LOW 
position so the air coming out of the vents would feel a little warmer.)

IMO fitting a heat pump to a conversion EV is going to be a pretty 
significant challenge.  That holds whether you're trying to make a HP from 
an existing aircon that came with the ICEV you're converting, or trying to 
convince a HP system from a production EV that it should work in a vehicle 
with none of the Canbus signals it expects.  I would have no idea where to 
start.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

The issue with a heat pump is sizing, at least when I did my whole house 
research. Down to, say, 40F a heat pump will do exceptionally well. As 
it gets colder, it takes more work to compress the heat from outside. 
From strictly a performance point of view, that will still always beat a 
resistance heater. However, now you need a larger unit. There comes a 
point when you need to make a size v efficiency trade off. So, if you 
choose a heat pump, make sure it will generate the BTUs you need at your 
coldest temperature or supplement it with some resistance heating.


Peri

-- Original Message --
From: "Cor van de Water via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Cor van de Water" 
Sent: 29-Nov-17 1:31:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV 
related)


Heat pump heating is always more efficient than resistive heating 
because the losses in the pump are added to the heat output, so when 
temp delta increases and efficiency drops, you approach the case of the 
resistive heating. Most heat pumps are applied to protect from 
excessive pump operation and wear by adding resistance heating below 
certain amb temps.



Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
 Original message From: Alan Arrison via EV 
 Date: 11/29/17  6:11 AM  (GMT+02:00) To: 
ev@lists.evdl.org Cc: Alan Arrison  Subject: Re: 
[EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.

As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
smaller amount of heat.

Al


On 11/28/2017 11:03 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps.
"How is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the
common sense question as well...)
Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a
resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even
a bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or 
not.




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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[Cor van de Water via EV]

Heat pump heating is always more efficient than resistive heating because the 
losses in the pump are added to the heat output, so when temp delta increases 
and efficiency drops, you approach the case of the resistive heating. Most heat 
pumps are applied to protect from excessive pump operation and wear by adding 
resistance heating below certain amb temps.


Sent from my T-Mobile 4G LTE Device
 Original message From: Alan Arrison via EV  
Date: 11/29/17  6:11 AM  (GMT+02:00) To: ev@lists.evdl.org Cc: Alan Arrison 
 Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, 
but somewhat EV related) 
Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.

As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever 
smaller amount of heat.

Al


On 11/28/2017 11:03 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:
> Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump
>
> Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps. 
> "How is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the 
> common sense question as well...)
> Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a 
> resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even 
> a bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or not.
>

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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[Bill Dube via EV]

The efficiency never drops below that of a resistive heater.

They don't do their magic much below ~10 Fahrenheit, but they will work 
to below zero. They actually have a resistive heater built into the 
outside unit to defrost the coils if they build up ice. I have two heat 
pumps on my house in Colorado and one on the garage. They have always 
worked, even on the coldest days.


BTW
There is heat in air all the way to absolute zero. (-459.67 F)  At this 
point, it contains no (zero) heat. The air turns completely to a solid 
below about 63 Kelvin (About -350 F) so you wouldn't care. :-)


Bill D.

On 11/28/2017 9:11 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:

Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.

As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever 
smaller amount of heat.


Al


On 11/28/2017 11:03 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps. 
"How is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the 
common sense question as well...)
Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a 
resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even 
a bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or not.




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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[Bill Dube via EV]

You can look up "How to install a mini split" on YouTube. The units 
typically come with poorly translated,  but still very useful, DIY 
installation instructions.


It is best if you have a gauge set and a vacuum pump, but if you are 
careful and detail oriented, you can use the "purge and bleed method." 
Just ordinary tools are required for this method. I have heard it works 
pretty well, actually. The leak detection is a bit more tricky, however, 
as you have to do a partial fill, check with soapy water for leaks, and 
then finish the purge and completely fill.


I have a gauge set and a vacuum pump. You can rent a vacuum pump in some 
tool rental stores. Gauge sets are ~ $30 or so on Ebay. Pull a vacuum 
for ~30 minutes then leak check by valving off and checking the vacuum 
on the gauge set after awhile for leak down. If no leaks, then you fill 
from the outside unit. This is the standard "with proper tools" method.


Cleanliness and careful workmanship are important to avoid leaks in the 
tubing. You have to know how to flare copper tubing properly, tighten 
flare fittings properly, and bend thinwall copper tubing without kinking 
it. You will need an assistant to help hang the inside unit. "Seasoned 
mechanic" is what I would rate the needed skill level at.


The outside unit comes pre-charged with enough R410A to fill the inside 
unit(s) and connective plumbing. If you leak checked well, then there is 
no need for additional refrigerant.


Ebay link for 18000 BTU 21 to 23 SEER unit for *$999*, free shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112410406169

You can easily heat/cool  a 24' x 24' insulated garage with this size 
unit. (1.5 ton unit = 18000 BTU)


Bill D.

On 11/28/2017 9:07 PM, John Lussmyer via EV wrote:

On Tue Nov 28 20:03:14 PST 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org said:

I replaced a resistive space heater (about $120) in my two car
garage/shop with a heat pump ($1300, Ebay) and it uses *one fifth* the
energy. (SEER 21, 18000 BTU, heating and A/C) Paid for itself in a less
than two years of operation. (Higher SEER rated heat pumps cost
considerably more that lower SEER rated units. They cut fewer corners so
you must pay for that.)
SEER Wikipedia link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_energy_efficiency_ratio

I've been tempted by those for my shop office - but you do have to hire a 
refrigeration guy to do the coolant.


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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[ROBERT via EV]

You guys are correct about a heat pump being more energy efficiency than a 
resistance heating element.  I recently installed a hybrid hot water heater.  I 
have an external energy monitor on this circuit.  The hybrid hot water heater 
used 1/4 the energy of a standard hot water heater.  With the tax credit, the 
heater will pay for itself in 4 years.



From: EV  on behalf of John Lussmyer via EV 

Sent: Tuesday, November 28, 2017 9:17 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List
Cc: John Lussmyer
Subject: Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

On Tue Nov 28 20:11:48 PST 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.

The one I just had put in the cabin is better than an electric heater down to 
around 0 deg F.
Around here, dropping below freezing is rare event.

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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Tue Nov 28 20:11:48 PST 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.
>
>As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever
>smaller amount of heat.

The one I just had put in the cabin is better than an electric heater down to 
around 0 deg F.
Around here, dropping below freezing is rare event.

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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[Alan Arrison via EV]

Heat can't magically be obtained from cold air.

As the temperature drops, the pump must do a lot more work for an ever 
smaller amount of heat.


Al


On 11/28/2017 11:03 PM, Bill Dube via EV wrote:

Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps. 
"How is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the 
common sense question as well...)
Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a 
resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even 
a bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or not.




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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[John Lussmyer via EV]

On Tue Nov 28 20:03:14 PST 2017 ev@lists.evdl.org said:
>I replaced a resistive space heater (about $120) in my two car
>garage/shop with a heat pump ($1300, Ebay) and it uses *one fifth* the
>energy. (SEER 21, 18000 BTU, heating and A/C) Paid for itself in a less
>than two years of operation. (Higher SEER rated heat pumps cost
>considerably more that lower SEER rated units. They cut fewer corners so
>you must pay for that.)
>SEER Wikipedia link:
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_energy_efficiency_ratio

I've been tempted by those for my shop office - but you do have to hire a 
refrigeration guy to do the coolant.


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Re: [EVDL] Heat pump vs resistive Heater (OT, but somewhat EV related)

[Bill Dube via EV]

Thanks for the Wikipedia reference. Here is the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heat_pump

Folks are often puzzled by the "up to 4x efficiency" of heat pumps. "How 
is that even possible?" is the most common question. (And the common 
sense question as well...)
Well, heat pumps do indeed deliver, typically 3x to 4x the heat as a 
resistive heater given the identical wattage input, occasionally even a 
bit more. They indeed work, whether you believe in the theory or not.


I replaced a resistive space heater (about $120) in my two car 
garage/shop with a heat pump ($1300, Ebay) and it uses *one fifth* the 
energy. (SEER 21, 18000 BTU, heating and A/C) Paid for itself in a less 
than two years of operation. (Higher SEER rated heat pumps cost 
considerably more that lower SEER rated units. They cut fewer corners so 
you must pay for that.)

SEER Wikipedia link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seasonal_energy_efficiency_ratio

Ebay link for 18000 BTU 21 to 23 SEER unit for $999, free shipping:
https://www.ebay.com/itm/112410406169

Bill D.




On 11/28/2017 8:00 PM, Rod Hower via EV wrote:

I had to look this up on Wikipedia since a 100% efficient resistive heater is hard 
to beat, but I guess I didn't understand that the heat pump is getting added energy 
from the environment.  "
Heat energy naturally transfers from warmer places to colder spaces. However, a heat 
pump can reverse this process, by absorbing heat from a cold space and releasing it 
to a warmer one. Heat is not conserved in this process and requires some amount of 
external energy, such as electricity. In heating, ventilation and air conditioning 
(HVAC) systems, the term heat pump usually refers to vapor-compression refrigeration 
devices optimized for high efficiency in both directions of thermal energy transfer. 
These heat pumps can be reversible, and work in either direction to provide heating 
or cooling to the internal space.Heat pumps are used to transfer heat because less 
high-grade energy is required than is released as heat. Most of the energy for 
heating comes from the external environment, only a fraction of which comes from 
electricity (or some other high-grade energy source required to run a compressor). 
In electrically-powered heat pumps, the heat transferred can be three or four times 
larger than the electrical power consumed, giving the system a coefficient of 
performance (COP) of 3 or 4, as opposed to a COP of 1 for a conventional electrical 
resistance heater, in which all heat is produced from input electrical energy.Heat 
pumps use a refrigerant as an intermediate fluid to absorb heat where it vaporizes, 
in the evaporator, and then to release heat where the refrigerant condenses, in the 
condenser. The refrigerant flows through insulated pipes between the evaporator and 
the condenser, allowing for efficient thermal energy transfer at relatively long 
distances.[5] "
  


 On Tuesday, November 28, 2017 8:42 PM, Bill Dube via EV 
 wrote:
  


  If you what to get quite fancy, modern OEMs use a heat pump run with a
small variable frequency drive. About 4x the efficiency of a resistive
heater. No joke, and that is a serious increase in range in the winter.
No doubt, you can get a Leaf compressor cheap in the bone yard.

By adding the proper valving, you have the bonus of air conditioning,
but that is even more of a project. The good thing is, you can reuse the
cars existing air conditioning condensor and evaporator and some of the
A/C plumbing.

It can get quite complicated, however, and a resistive ceramic type
heater core is, no doubt, the simplest option. I'd opt for a "high/low"
switch (series-parallel?) on two ceramic heaters, or some sort of
thermostat on the outgoing air from the heater(s).

Bill D.

On 11/28/2017 4:33 PM, Bob Bath via EV wrote:

Respectfully, when I did Civicwithacord, the goal was defrosting the windshield 
effectively, not keeping me warm. Yanking out the dash to install the ceramic 
heater in the old fluid core housing was easily the biggest b---h of the 
conversion, but the time and look and safety was well worth it!!

Bob Bath, from his iPod, so any misspellings are from autocorrect or fat 
fingers on a small device, not cluelessness...


On Nov 28, 2017, at 3:13 PM, Bill Dennis via EV  wrote:

I used a 1500W heater core in my Geo Metro conversion, and I'd say that it
kept the car kinda "warmish" on really cold days.  But I think if I'd taken
the time to put extra insulation in the car, that would have helped.

Bill



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