Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Peter VanDerWal via EV]

Generally speaking, grid tied inverters can handle more power in than their 
rated power out(plus losses).  If they are running at the max output power they 
simply don't draws as much current from the array, that allows the voltage to 
go up, and current goes down, and they are no longer operating at the array's 
max power point.

As long as you don't exceed the max input voltage you can't damage the 
inverter.  You avoid that by making sure the total open circuit voltage (plus 
20% or so) is less than the max input voltage.  The 20% extra gives you some 
wiggle room on partiularly cold, clear, and sunny days.


May 29, 2020 9:28 AM, "Robert Bruninga via EV"  wrote:

>> , I can’t simply combine the 12 panels into one string,
>> because even though the voltage would be very good,
>> the total power is higher than the inverter can handle on a single string
>> (3.7kW max per string).
> 
> I was under the impression that you can connect an oversupply of solar to
> most MPPT inverters, because they will simply max out at their rated power
> no matter how much solar is available. In fact, I have heard that many
> installers add about 20% more solar panels on the input to make sure the
> inverter is operating at max on the 95% of days that are less than perfect.
> Yes, the added 20% cost of solar panels is wasted on those 5% of days, but
> on average the higher efficiency makes up for it.
> 
> My system actually DOUBLES the solar input power to the inverters. Each of
> my three 3 kW inverters are connected to SE and SW facing arrays since both
> are not fully illuminated at the same time (trees inbetween) and so I get
> two 3kW periods for twice as long during the solar day. In the winter both
> arrays can be illuminated at the same time trhough some twigs, but the MPPT
> just delivers its max rating and does not complain. (90 degrees apart can
> equal 1.414 times 3 kW or 4 kW or so)
> 
> I did it this way because inverters are the highest cost in a system, and I
> can get DIY colar panels for 20% the cost of the original contractor's so I
> was able to double my annual output with only a 20% increase in cost (And it
> is DIY since I already had a net meter and all the permits and inspections..
> 
> So, I have three 3Kw inverters and each one is connected to TWO 3kw arrays
> each (facing separate East and West directions). And I make sure to have 14
> panels in series on each, since around here, that is the max you can have
> and stay below the 600V max rating on the best winter day. My MPPT
> inverters still hang in there down to 195v DC input (compared to 450 to 500v
> normal) so this means as long as about half of the solar panels in any
> string are still in sun, then the MPPT is still able to produce max power
> from the remaing 7 panels.
> 
> Bob
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Tom Keenan via EV
> Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 11:16 PM
> To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> Cc: Tom Keenan 
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)
> 
> For those interested, here is a slightly more detailed write-up of my solar
> power system at home.
> 
> The supplier for my system is Electriq. They provided a Darfon(Panasonic)
> charger/inverter and the Panasonic batteries. I believe the battery cells
> are similar to the ones used by Tesla, but am not sure.
> 
> The inverter itself runs at 48v (nominal). I have six sets of 48v batteries
> wired in parallel to the charger/inverter input. Each of the individual
> units of the six pack is rated around 3 kWh, but in practice they are kept
> to about 2.5 kWh by limiting how far up and down they can go while charging
> and discharging in order to maintain the health of the overall battery
> system. Thus gives me around 15 kWh at about 48 volts for the battery.
> 
> The solar array is two strings of six panels, for about 2kW (@240v) for each
> of the two strings, making it a 4kW (nominal) system. Depending on the sky
> clarity and temperature, I’ve seen the array put out up to 5kW for brief
> periods of time. More normal to see it around 3.8 or so kW. If I had to do
> it again, I’d have two strings of 7 panels to make the MPPT more robust.
> But putting up two more panels and this point would only add to the amount
> of ‘credit’ I’ll lose at the end of the year, so I’ll take the efficiency
> hit.
> 
> As it is, the voltage of six panels is on the edge of being able to use
> inverter-based MPPT or not, depending on how much sun they are getting.
> Generally the voltage is just a little bit (1 or 2 volts) too low to work
> consistently. With an extra panel in the string, it would normally be in
> MPPT mode. Unfortunately, I can’t simply combine the 12 panels into one
> string, because even though the volta

Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I think the real argument, at least in this case, is based on loss of 
revenue. If you get some of your power from solar, you aren't paying as 
much to the utility. But, they still need to maintain the same capacity, 
for the days when your solar doesn't produce. So, their costs stay the 
same (or increase, with inflation) but their revenue goes down.


Clearly, that's insignificant for a small percent of solar 
installations. And, whether it really makes a difference on their bottom 
line depends on the utility. Look at PG, for example.


In the long run, once the nuc can be permanently shut down, there really 
is the problem of "spinning" reserve. We have time to deal with that. 
And, of course, Musk's new batteries are going to solve that :)


Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 29-May-20 9:36:40 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)


No, less.

Around here, maybe 35% of our electricity comes from Nuclear. BUT the
nuclear plant can go down sometimes too (almost instantly), so the local
utility has to have enough SPINNING RESRVE to equal the largest unit (of
2) of the nuclear plant (900 MW).  That amount of existing spinning
reserve is orders of magnitude greater than what they need for solar and
wind (in Maryland)...

So the "spinning reserve" argument against renewables is just
misinformation spewed by fossil fuel shills and greedy utilities.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 8:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Lee Hart 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

 Without energy storage, you actually need *more* energy infrastructure.


Yes... But they already *have* the infrastructure. The utilities want to
keep getting money for it. Never mind that it was paid off decades ago.
Sort of like wanting to keep driving your old car because the loan is all
paid off.

The old monopolies are having a hard time dealing with new technologies
that break out of the old limits (PV and wind replacing grid power,
cellphones replacing wired phones, internet streaming replacing cable TV,
etc.)

Lee Hart

--
When something bad happens, you have three choices: You can let it define
you; let it destroy you; or you can let it strengthen you.
-- Theodor Seuss Geisel
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

No, less.

Around here, maybe 35% of our electricity comes from Nuclear. BUT the
nuclear plant can go down sometimes too (almost instantly), so the local
utility has to have enough SPINNING RESRVE to equal the largest unit (of
2) of the nuclear plant (900 MW).  That amount of existing spinning
reserve is orders of magnitude greater than what they need for solar and
wind (in Maryland)...

So the "spinning reserve" argument against renewables is just
misinformation spewed by fossil fuel shills and greedy utilities.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 8:50 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Lee Hart 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
> Without energy storage, you actually need *more* energy infrastructure.

Yes... But they already *have* the infrastructure. The utilities want to
keep getting money for it. Never mind that it was paid off decades ago.
Sort of like wanting to keep driving your old car because the loan is all
paid off.

The old monopolies are having a hard time dealing with new technologies
that break out of the old limits (PV and wind replacing grid power,
cellphones replacing wired phones, internet streaming replacing cable TV,
etc.)

Lee Hart

--
When something bad happens, you have three choices: You can let it define
you; let it destroy you; or you can let it strengthen you.
-- Theodor Seuss Geisel
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

> , I can’t simply combine the 12 panels into one string,
> because even though the voltage would be very good,
> the total power is higher than the inverter can handle on a single string
> (3.7kW max per string).

I was under the impression that you can connect an oversupply of solar to
most MPPT inverters, because they will simply max out at their rated power
no matter how much solar is available.  In fact, I have heard that many
installers add about 20% more solar panels on the input to make sure the
inverter is operating at max on the 95% of days that are less than perfect.
Yes, the added 20% cost of solar panels is wasted on those 5% of days, but
on average the higher efficiency makes up for it.

My system actually DOUBLES the solar input power to the inverters.  Each of
my three 3 kW inverters are connected to SE and SW facing arrays since both
are not fully illuminated at the same time (trees inbetween) and so I get
two 3kW periods for twice as long during the solar day.  In the winter both
arrays can be illuminated at the same time trhough some twigs, but the MPPT
just delivers its max rating and does not complain. (90 degrees apart can
equal 1.414 times 3 kW or 4 kW or so)

I did it this way because inverters are the highest cost in a system, and I
can get DIY colar panels for 20% the cost of the original contractor's so I
was able to double my annual output with only a 20% increase in cost (And it
is DIY since I already had a net meter and all the permits and inspections..

So, I have three 3Kw inverters and each one is connected to TWO 3kw arrays
each (facing separate East and West directions).  And I make sure to have 14
panels in series on each, since around here, that is the max you can have
and stay below the 600V max rating on the best winter day.  My MPPT
inverters still hang in there down to 195v DC input (compared to 450 to 500v
normal) so this means as long as about half of the solar panels in any
string are still in sun, then the MPPT is still able to produce max power
from the remaing 7 panels.

Bob
-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Tom Keenan via EV
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 11:16 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: Tom Keenan 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

For those interested, here is a slightly more detailed write-up of my solar
power system at home.

The supplier for my system is Electriq.  They provided a Darfon(Panasonic)
charger/inverter and the Panasonic batteries. I believe the battery cells
are similar to the ones used by Tesla, but am not sure.

The inverter itself runs at 48v (nominal).  I have six sets of 48v batteries
wired in parallel to the charger/inverter input. Each of the individual
units of the six pack is rated around 3 kWh, but in practice they are kept
to about 2.5 kWh by limiting how far up and down they can go while charging
and discharging in order to maintain the health of the overall battery
system.  Thus gives me around 15 kWh at about 48 volts for the battery.

The solar array is two strings of six panels, for about 2kW (@240v) for each
of the two strings, making it a 4kW (nominal) system. Depending on the sky
clarity and temperature, I’ve seen the array put out up to 5kW for brief
periods of time. More normal to see it around 3.8 or so kW. If I had to do
it again, I’d have two strings of 7 panels to make the MPPT more robust.
But putting up two more panels and this point would only add to the amount
of ‘credit’ I’ll lose at the end of the year, so I’ll take the efficiency
hit.

As it is, the voltage of six panels is on the edge of being able to use
inverter-based MPPT or not, depending on how much sun they are getting.
Generally the voltage is just a little bit (1 or 2 volts) too low to work
consistently. With an extra panel in the string, it would normally be in
MPPT mode.  Unfortunately, I can’t simply combine the 12 panels into one
string, because even though the voltage would be very good, the total power
is higher than the inverter can handle on a single string (3.7kW max per
string).

The inverter is rated at about 5.7(?) kW continuous, but will peak higher
for certain brief periods. I saw it around 8kW once when I plugged in my EV
without first checking the charge amp limit, and it handled it gracefully.

I will be charging the Kona tomorrow because I drove it about 50 miles this
evening. I’ll plug it in around 10:30 am after the house battery has
finished charging. Depending on how sunny it is, and if it is warm enough
that I want to turn on The A/C in the house (not likely), I’ll set the car
charge amps somewhere between 10 and 20 amps (@240v).

Tom Keenan

> On May 28, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
>
> Thomas's post didn't make it to me.  I'm pleased to see it completely
> quoted here.
>
>> On 5/28/20 8:09 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
>> Tom, could you give some specifics on this system, or point us to a web
>> page?
>> What bat

Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Wow!

What the cost of your system?

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On May 28, 2020, at 8:16 PM, Tom Keenan via EV  wrote:
> 
> For those interested, here is a slightly more detailed write-up of my solar 
> power system at home. 
> 
> The supplier for my system is Electriq.  They provided a Darfon(Panasonic) 
> charger/inverter and the Panasonic batteries. I believe the battery cells are 
> similar to the ones used by Tesla, but am not sure. 
> 
> The inverter itself runs at 48v (nominal).  I have six sets of 48v batteries 
> wired in parallel to the charger/inverter input. Each of the individual units 
> of the six pack is rated around 3 kWh, but in practice they are kept to about 
> 2.5 kWh by limiting how far up and down they can go while charging and 
> discharging in order to maintain the health of the overall battery system.  
> Thus gives me around 15 kWh at about 48 volts for the battery. 
> 
> The solar array is two strings of six panels, for about 2kW (@240v) for each 
> of the two strings, making it a 4kW (nominal) system. Depending on the sky 
> clarity and temperature, I’ve seen the array put out up to 5kW for brief 
> periods of time. More normal to see it around 3.8 or so kW. If I had to do it 
> again, I’d have two strings of 7 panels to make the MPPT more robust.  But 
> putting up two more panels and this point would only add to the amount of 
> ‘credit’ I’ll lose at the end of the year, so I’ll take the efficiency hit. 
> 
> As it is, the voltage of six panels is on the edge of being able to use 
> inverter-based MPPT or not, depending on how much sun they are getting. 
> Generally the voltage is just a little bit (1 or 2 volts) too low to work 
> consistently. With an extra panel in the string, it would normally be in MPPT 
> mode.  Unfortunately, I can’t simply combine the 12 panels into one string, 
> because even though the voltage would be very good, the total power is higher 
> than the inverter can handle on a single string (3.7kW max per string). 
> 
> The inverter is rated at about 5.7(?) kW continuous, but will peak higher for 
> certain brief periods. I saw it around 8kW once when I plugged in my EV 
> without first checking the charge amp limit, and it handled it gracefully. 
> 
> I will be charging the Kona tomorrow because I drove it about 50 miles this 
> evening. I’ll plug it in around 10:30 am after the house battery has finished 
> charging. Depending on how sunny it is, and if it is warm enough that I want 
> to turn on The A/C in the house (not likely), I’ll set the car charge amps 
> somewhere between 10 and 20 amps (@240v). 
> 
> Tom Keenan
> 
>> On May 28, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
>> 
>> Thomas's post didn't make it to me.  I'm pleased to see it completely 
>> quoted here.
>> 
 On 5/28/20 8:09 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
>>> Tom, could you give some specifics on this system, or point us to a web 
>>> page?
>>> What battery? What inverter?
>>> Thanks, Al
 On 5/28/2020 1:24 PM, Thomas Keenan via EV wrote:
 Where I live, the local utility has some odd rules, but I do get credited 
 $0.06968 for each kWh given back to the grid.  I have a permitted 4 kW 
 array that feeds a Darfon/Panasonic inverter/charger for a 15kWh (useable) 
 battery that was commissioned in January.  The battery covers times when 
 the panels aren’t putting out enough to power the house, such as 
 overnight.  Overnight, the house uses two or three kWh that comes from the 
 battery.  In the morning the battery recharges, and is typically done 
 charging around 10:30 in the AM.  After that, any excess is sold.
 
 This inverter/battery setup has been working very well.  The battery has 
 not been below about 50% so far, and that was during a three-day rain 
 event where the system wasn’t producing much.  Aside from those (somewhat 
 rare) rain events, I generally have around 10-20 kWh excess that is sold 
 back to the grid daily.
>> 
>> This is much the same as my PowerWall set up which has been running about 15 
>> months.  The PW allows me to avoid all electricity  purchases. But the PW 
>> cost can not be justified by the savings.
>> 
>> I sell over production for $.0645/kwh and buy at about $.10.  The PW allows 
>> me to not buy about 10kwh each night.  So, my daily savings from using the 
>> PW is only about 10 x ($.10-$.0645) or less than $.50/day.  I don't buy the 
>> 10kwh at night but I have to use 10kwh during the day to charge the battery 
>> and thus do not sell that 10kwh.  The PW cost $13k. I justify that cost with 
>> grid down security.
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>> 
> -- next part --
> An HTML 

Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

They may have it, but they will need more as the amount of renewables increase 
as you need to address the intermittent loss of  those.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On May 28, 2020, at 5:48 PM, Lee Hart via EV  wrote:
> 
> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> Without energy storage, you actually need *more* energy infrastructure.
> 
> Yes... But they already *have* the infrastructure. The utilities want to keep 
> getting money for it. Never mind that it was paid off decades ago. Sort of 
> like wanting to keep driving your old car because the loan is all paid off.
> 
> The old monopolies are having a hard time dealing with new technologies that 
> break out of the old limits (PV and wind replacing grid power, cellphones 
> replacing wired phones, internet streaming replacing cable TV, etc.)
> 
> Lee Hart
> 
> -- 
> When something bad happens, you have three choices: You can let it
> define you; let it destroy you; or you can let it strengthen you.
>-- Theodor Seuss Geisel
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Not necessarily for peak load going down. When you have lots of renewables on 
the grid, unless you have storage to even things out, you need infrastructure 
to handle the diurnal swings in renewables.  When you lose the renewables, you 
still need to be able to handle the load as well as accept the renewables as 
they come back on. With storage, it doesn’t matter. If you are not producing 
renewables, you are just pulling it off storage.

I’m not sure that I articulated that very well.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On May 28, 2020, at 3:08 PM, Jim Walls via EV  wrote:
> 
> On 05/28/2020 14:43, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
>> Without energy storage, you actually need *more* energy infrastructure.
>> 
> 
> Why would you need more infrastructure to handle your peak load going down?
> 
> -- 
> 73
> -
> Jim Walls - K6CCC
> j...@k6ccc.org
> Ofc:  818-548-4804
> http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
> AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395
> 
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> 

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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Tom Keenan via EV]

For those interested, here is a slightly more detailed write-up of my solar 
power system at home. 

The supplier for my system is Electriq.  They provided a Darfon(Panasonic) 
charger/inverter and the Panasonic batteries. I believe the battery cells are 
similar to the ones used by Tesla, but am not sure. 

The inverter itself runs at 48v (nominal).  I have six sets of 48v batteries 
wired in parallel to the charger/inverter input. Each of the individual units 
of the six pack is rated around 3 kWh, but in practice they are kept to about 
2.5 kWh by limiting how far up and down they can go while charging and 
discharging in order to maintain the health of the overall battery system.  
Thus gives me around 15 kWh at about 48 volts for the battery. 

The solar array is two strings of six panels, for about 2kW (@240v) for each of 
the two strings, making it a 4kW (nominal) system. Depending on the sky clarity 
and temperature, I’ve seen the array put out up to 5kW for brief periods of 
time. More normal to see it around 3.8 or so kW. If I had to do it again, I’d 
have two strings of 7 panels to make the MPPT more robust.  But putting up two 
more panels and this point would only add to the amount of ‘credit’ I’ll lose 
at the end of the year, so I’ll take the efficiency hit. 

As it is, the voltage of six panels is on the edge of being able to use 
inverter-based MPPT or not, depending on how much sun they are getting. 
Generally the voltage is just a little bit (1 or 2 volts) too low to work 
consistently. With an extra panel in the string, it would normally be in MPPT 
mode.  Unfortunately, I can’t simply combine the 12 panels into one string, 
because even though the voltage would be very good, the total power is higher 
than the inverter can handle on a single string (3.7kW max per string). 

The inverter is rated at about 5.7(?) kW continuous, but will peak higher for 
certain brief periods. I saw it around 8kW once when I plugged in my EV without 
first checking the charge amp limit, and it handled it gracefully. 

I will be charging the Kona tomorrow because I drove it about 50 miles this 
evening. I’ll plug it in around 10:30 am after the house battery has finished 
charging. Depending on how sunny it is, and if it is warm enough that I want to 
turn on The A/C in the house (not likely), I’ll set the car charge amps 
somewhere between 10 and 20 amps (@240v). 

Tom Keenan

> On May 28, 2020, at 7:11 PM, Willie via EV  wrote:
> 
> Thomas's post didn't make it to me.  I'm pleased to see it completely quoted 
> here.
> 
>> On 5/28/20 8:09 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
>> Tom, could you give some specifics on this system, or point us to a web page?
>> What battery? What inverter?
>> Thanks, Al
>>> On 5/28/2020 1:24 PM, Thomas Keenan via EV wrote:
>>> Where I live, the local utility has some odd rules, but I do get credited 
>>> $0.06968 for each kWh given back to the grid.  I have a permitted 4 kW 
>>> array that feeds a Darfon/Panasonic inverter/charger for a 15kWh (useable) 
>>> battery that was commissioned in January.  The battery covers times when 
>>> the panels aren’t putting out enough to power the house, such as overnight. 
>>>  Overnight, the house uses two or three kWh that comes from the battery.  
>>> In the morning the battery recharges, and is typically done charging around 
>>> 10:30 in the AM.  After that, any excess is sold.
>>> 
>>> This inverter/battery setup has been working very well.  The battery has 
>>> not been below about 50% so far, and that was during a three-day rain event 
>>> where the system wasn’t producing much.  Aside from those (somewhat rare) 
>>> rain events, I generally have around 10-20 kWh excess that is sold back to 
>>> the grid daily.
> 
> This is much the same as my PowerWall set up which has been running about 15 
> months.  The PW allows me to avoid all electricity  purchases. But the PW 
> cost can not be justified by the savings.
> 
> I sell over production for $.0645/kwh and buy at about $.10.  The PW allows 
> me to not buy about 10kwh each night.  So, my daily savings from using the PW 
> is only about 10 x ($.10-$.0645) or less than $.50/day.  I don't buy the 
> 10kwh at night but I have to use 10kwh during the day to charge the battery 
> and thus do not sell that 10kwh.  The PW cost $13k. I justify that cost with 
> grid down security.
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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Willie via EV]

Thomas's post didn't make it to me.  I'm pleased to see it completely 
quoted here.


On 5/28/20 8:09 PM, Alan Arrison via EV wrote:
Tom, could you give some specifics on this system, or point us to a web 
page?


What battery? What inverter?

Thanks, Al

On 5/28/2020 1:24 PM, Thomas Keenan via EV wrote:
Where I live, the local utility has some odd rules, but I do get 
credited $0.06968 for each kWh given back to the grid.  I have a 
permitted 4 kW array that feeds a Darfon/Panasonic inverter/charger 
for a 15kWh (useable) battery that was commissioned in January.  The 
battery covers times when the panels aren’t putting out enough to 
power the house, such as overnight.  Overnight, the house uses two or 
three kWh that comes from the battery.  In the morning the battery 
recharges, and is typically done charging around 10:30 in the AM.  
After that, any excess is sold.


This inverter/battery setup has been working very well.  The battery 
has not been below about 50% so far, and that was during a three-day 
rain event where the system wasn’t producing much.  Aside from those 
(somewhat rare) rain events, I generally have around 10-20 kWh excess 
that is sold back to the grid daily.


This is much the same as my PowerWall set up which has been running 
about 15 months.  The PW allows me to avoid all electricity  purchases. 
But the PW cost can not be justified by the savings.


I sell over production for $.0645/kwh and buy at about $.10.  The PW 
allows me to not buy about 10kwh each night.  So, my daily savings from 
using the PW is only about 10 x ($.10-$.0645) or less than $.50/day.  I 
don't buy the 10kwh at night but I have to use 10kwh during the day to 
charge the battery and thus do not sell that 10kwh.  The PW cost $13k. 
I justify that cost with grid down security.

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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

Thomas Keenan, could you please provide more information on your solar
setup?
1. What and how many solar panels
2. What kind and how many batteries

We have
1. 24 265 W BenQ (Checz Republic) panels
2. Two SMA Sunny Boy (grid-tied) inverters
3. Tigo Optimizers
Each spring and fall we have a month or two where we have generated enough
electricity that we only have to pay a very small amount. Even with our
current number of panels our electricity bill in January and February is
over $100/ month.
We are adding
1. 24 300 W Peimar (Italian) panels
2. Two SMA Sunny Boy inverters that can handle greater output from the
panels than the SB inverters that we already have)
3. TWO SMA Sunny Island inverters that are grid-free capable and will
charge batteries.
4. Batteries - we have not yet purchased. We prefer Li-ion, but they sure
are expensive. Lead Acid batteries are less expensive, but deep discharging
damages them more and they don't have a long life.

Any advice would be appreciated.
Thank you
Bob Keeland
Louisiana

On Thu, May 28, 2020, 7:48 PM Lee Hart via EV  wrote:

> Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:
> > Without energy storage, you actually need *more* energy infrastructure.
>
> Yes... But they already *have* the infrastructure. The utilities want to
> keep getting money for it. Never mind that it was paid off decades ago.
> Sort of like wanting to keep driving your old car because the loan is
> all paid off.
>
> The old monopolies are having a hard time dealing with new technologies
> that break out of the old limits (PV and wind replacing grid power,
> cellphones replacing wired phones, internet streaming replacing cable
> TV, etc.)
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> When something bad happens, you have three choices: You can let it
> define you; let it destroy you; or you can let it strengthen you.
> -- Theodor Seuss Geisel
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Alan Arrison via EV]

Tom, could you give some specifics on this system, or point us to a web 
page?


What battery? What inverter?

Thanks, Al

On 5/28/2020 1:24 PM, Thomas Keenan via EV wrote:

Where I live, the local utility has some odd rules, but I do get credited 
$0.06968 for each kWh given back to the grid.  I have a permitted 4 kW array 
that feeds a Darfon/Panasonic inverter/charger for a 15kWh (useable) battery 
that was commissioned in January.  The battery covers times when the panels 
aren’t putting out enough to power the house, such as overnight.  Overnight, 
the house uses two or three kWh that comes from the battery.  In the morning 
the battery recharges, and is typically done charging around 10:30 in the AM.  
After that, any excess is sold.

This inverter/battery setup has been working very well.  The battery has not 
been below about 50% so far, and that was during a three-day rain event where 
the system wasn’t producing much.  Aside from those (somewhat rare) rain 
events, I generally have around 10-20 kWh excess that is sold back to the grid 
daily.



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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Without energy storage, you actually need *more* energy infrastructure.


Yes... But they already *have* the infrastructure. The utilities want to 
keep getting money for it. Never mind that it was paid off decades ago. 
Sort of like wanting to keep driving your old car because the loan is 
all paid off.


The old monopolies are having a hard time dealing with new technologies 
that break out of the old limits (PV and wind replacing grid power, 
cellphones replacing wired phones, internet streaming replacing cable 
TV, etc.)


Lee Hart

--
When something bad happens, you have three choices: You can let it
define you; let it destroy you; or you can let it strengthen you.
-- Theodor Seuss Geisel
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Jim Walls via EV]

On 05/28/2020 14:43, Mark Abramowitz via EV wrote:

Without energy storage, you actually need *more* energy infrastructure.



Why would you need more infrastructure to handle your peak load going down?

--
73
-
Jim Walls - K6CCC
j...@k6ccc.org
Ofc:  818-548-4804
http://members.dslextreme.com/users/k6ccc/
AMSAT Member 32537 - WSWSS Member 395

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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Mark Abramowitz via EV]

Without energy storage, you actually need *more* energy infrastructure.

- Mark

Sent from my Fuel Cell powered iPhone

> On May 28, 2020, at 12:11 PM, Peri Hartman via EV  wrote:
> 
> I disagree with that approach, but not because of subsidies.
> 
> The problem is there is no incentive with that approach to build energy 
> storage. Without storage, we still need most of the existing energy 
> infrastructure, to account for periods when no one is producing. (Ok, I'm 
> exaggerating a bit.) And, if that infrastructure needs to be maintained, it 
> costs. That would ensure the subsidies go on indefinitely, to some degree. 
> Plus it still doesn't remove our dependence on fossil fuels.
> 
> If we design an incentive program that includes a build-out of storage, then 
> it could work.
> 
> Peri
> 
> << Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
> https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>
> 
> -- Original Message --
> From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
> To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
> Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
> Sent: 28-May-20 12:05:00 PM
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)
> 
>>> On 28 May 2020 at 15:52, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:
>>> 
>>> But to be fair, there is a cost to the utility
>>> company since they get less revenue but still must maintain the same
>>> level of infrastructure. Surely there's a better and fair way to do
>>> this.
>> 
>> This is where subsidies come in.  If a utility agrees to buy back homemade
>> energy at full retail from homeowners with documented RE sources, then
>> either the state or federal government should pay them for doing it.  That
>> will encourage further RE adoption, reducing pollution and improving our
>> energy independence.
>> 
>> No doubt the utilities  will overstate their expenses and make a profit on
>> it.  That's what they do.  So it goes. Do it anyway.  This is a public good.
>> It's the sort of thing that we pay taxes for.  Use them.
>> 
>> Not that I think this will actually ever happen in the US, given our
>> politics and priorities.  Our governments are only allowed to subsidize
>> traditional dirty energy producers. And are they ever generous about that
>> kind of welfare!  But we can dream.
>> 
>> David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
>> EVDL Administrator
>> 
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
>> reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
>> email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
>> = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
>> 
>> 
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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

No one needs to pay the greedy utility for it.  When my solar arrays are
producing during the day, that is also the PEAK grid load where the
utilites are buying their power from other sources at the highest rate.
But they pay me (in kWh) at the going average rate.  Then at night when I
ask for it back, they are generating it at their lowest cost, probably 1/2
to 1/3rd as much and yet I still pay the average going rate.  No matter
how you think about it, they are making money off of me by buying my
energy low and selling it high.

That is not unfair to them.  And it is fair to me for the privlidge.

Plus it saves them having to add more infrastructure to meet the growing
demand, since our solar arrays are providing that peak load.

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via
EV
Sent: Thursday, May 28, 2020 3:05 PM
To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
Cc: EVDL Administrator 
Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

On 28 May 2020 at 15:52, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> But to be fair, there is a cost to the utility company since they get
> less revenue but still must maintain the same level of infrastructure.
> Surely there's a better and fair way to do this.

This is where subsidies come in.  If a utility agrees to buy back homemade
energy at full retail from homeowners with documented RE sources, then
either the state or federal government should pay them for doing it.  That
will encourage further RE adoption, reducing pollution and improving our
energy independence.

No doubt the utilities  will overstate their expenses and make a profit on
it.  That's what they do.  So it goes. Do it anyway.  This is a public
good.
It's the sort of thing that we pay taxes for.  Use them.

Not that I think this will actually ever happen in the US, given our
politics and priorities.  Our governments are only allowed to subsidize
traditional dirty energy producers. And are they ever generous about that
kind of welfare!  But we can dream.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL
Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
= = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not reach me.  To
send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage
http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

I disagree with that approach, but not because of subsidies.

The problem is there is no incentive with that approach to build energy 
storage. Without storage, we still need most of the existing energy 
infrastructure, to account for periods when no one is producing. (Ok, 
I'm exaggerating a bit.) And, if that infrastructure needs to be 
maintained, it costs. That would ensure the subsidies go on 
indefinitely, to some degree. Plus it still doesn't remove our 
dependence on fossil fuels.


If we design an incentive program that includes a build-out of storage, 
then it could work.


Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "EVDL Administrator via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "EVDL Administrator" 
Sent: 28-May-20 12:05:00 PM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)


On 28 May 2020 at 15:52, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:


 But to be fair, there is a cost to the utility
 company since they get less revenue but still must maintain the same
 level of infrastructure. Surely there's a better and fair way to do
 this.


This is where subsidies come in.  If a utility agrees to buy back homemade
energy at full retail from homeowners with documented RE sources, then
either the state or federal government should pay them for doing it.  That
will encourage further RE adoption, reducing pollution and improving our
energy independence.

No doubt the utilities  will overstate their expenses and make a profit on
it.  That's what they do.  So it goes. Do it anyway.  This is a public good.
It's the sort of thing that we pay taxes for.  Use them.

Not that I think this will actually ever happen in the US, given our
politics and priorities.  Our governments are only allowed to subsidize
traditional dirty energy producers. And are they ever generous about that
kind of welfare!  But we can dream.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[EVDL Administrator via EV]

On 28 May 2020 at 15:52, Peri Hartman via EV wrote:

> But to be fair, there is a cost to the utility 
> company since they get less revenue but still must maintain the same 
> level of infrastructure. Surely there's a better and fair way to do 
> this.

This is where subsidies come in.  If a utility agrees to buy back homemade 
energy at full retail from homeowners with documented RE sources, then 
either the state or federal government should pay them for doing it.  That 
will encourage further RE adoption, reducing pollution and improving our 
energy independence. 

No doubt the utilities  will overstate their expenses and make a profit on 
it.  That's what they do.  So it goes. Do it anyway.  This is a public good. 
It's the sort of thing that we pay taxes for.  Use them.

Not that I think this will actually ever happen in the US, given our 
politics and priorities.  Our governments are only allowed to subsidize 
traditional dirty energy producers. And are they ever generous about that 
kind of welfare!  But we can dream.

David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA
EVDL Administrator

= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =
EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = 
Note: mail sent to "evpost" and "etpost" addresses will not 
reach me.  To send a private message, please obtain my 
email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ .
= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =


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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Thomas Keenan via EV]

Where I live, the local utility has some odd rules, but I do get credited 
$0.06968 for each kWh given back to the grid.  I have a permitted 4 kW array 
that feeds a Darfon/Panasonic inverter/charger for a 15kWh (useable) battery 
that was commissioned in January.  The battery covers times when the panels 
aren’t putting out enough to power the house, such as overnight.  Overnight, 
the house uses two or three kWh that comes from the battery.  In the morning 
the battery recharges, and is typically done charging around 10:30 in the AM.  
After that, any excess is sold.  

This inverter/battery setup has been working very well.  The battery has not 
been below about 50% so far, and that was during a three-day rain event where 
the system wasn’t producing much.  Aside from those (somewhat rare) rain 
events, I generally have around 10-20 kWh excess that is sold back to the grid 
daily. 

One quirk of this inverter is that in certain conditions, it goes into 
‘standby’ (in the power delivery mode I’m using - it has several custom 
delivery modes).  The inverter goes into standby mode when the house load is 
less than around 100-150 watts, and the panels aren’t producing power (like at 
night, with lights turned off).  Between refrigerator cycles at night, the 
standby consumption ends up being around 1 kWh per day.  In other words, 
although I am producing several hundred kWh per month, I am also buying about 
30 kWh per month.  Each month, I have a ‘credit’ of anywhere from $10 to $35, 
which rolls forward for a year, At the end of the year, any credits not used 
are expired.  So, it is not exactly net metering, but a combination of buying a 
bit, and getting credit for kWh produced.  My power bill used to be anywhere 
from $80 to $150 a month.  The highest bills were from November through January 
due to Xmas lights, small space heater use, and driving the EV more to visit 
people.  I have not had a bill that required payment since the system was 
commissioned.

When I am driving (not driving much at all these days due to shelter in place) 
I typically drive less than around 30 miles per day.  I normally can plug in 
the EV around 2:30 or so, and the 30 miles (around 7.5 kWh) is charged back up 
in a couple of hours. I normally try to keep the charge current somewhat low to 
ensure I am not drawing off the grid when charging.  Occasionally, the car 
takes a bit (1-2 kWh) from the house battery when charging, but the house 
battery gets recharged quickly the next morning. A typical day’s excess 
generation (10-20 kWh) means I can drive up to 80 miles a day without drawing 
from the grid.  Again, 80 miles is well beyond my typical driving needs.  I 
only have one vehicle, and it is battery electric (Hyundai Kona EV).

This particular inverter/battery setup can be completely islanded.  I’ve done 
that for a few days at a time, and the inverter handles the power used by the 
house very well.  As when grid-tied, the battery typically doesn’t go below 
70-80% of charge - the discharge cycle is 20-30% of nominal capacity.  There is 
excess once the battery chargers, but the inverter simply provides what the 
house needs (like an ICE generator) and doesn’t need to ‘bleed off’ any excess, 
like some have suggested.  If this system were used in an off-grid house, it 
would perform like I have done by disconnecting the grid connection.  It also 
has a ‘dark start’ mode for situations when the grid isn’t available, such as 
an off-grid house.

The system is more than just a set of panels an an inverter, but I like it the 
way it is - suits my needs very well.

Tl;Dr - I have a 4 kWh solar array and 15 kWh battery system that runs the 
house and charges my EV.

Tom Keenan


> On May 28, 2020, at 7:16 AM, Robert Bruninga via EV  wrote:
> 
> Wow, that is a travesty.  Utilities should not be allowed to get away with
> that kind of greed.
> 
> 
> 
> I’d say that ALL 16 kW of my solar production in the spring and fall and
> most of the summer is EXCESS (when generated) since we don’t run AC except
> on the hottest week or so of summer, and the only thing running is the
> cycling of the Refrigerator.  So almost all of our production is banked in
> the grid via NET metering until we use it for the 12 hours of sundown and
> almost continuously in the winter for heatpump heat.
> 
> 
> 
> Not allowing homeowners to contribute to the grid during peak solar days
> when the utility needs it most is a travesty of utility greed and
> illiteracy of the community politcians. (in my humble opinion…)
> 
> 
> 
> Bob
> 
> 
> 
> *From:* Bobby Keeland 
> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2020 4:58 PM
> *To:* Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
> *Cc:* Robert Bruninga 
> *Subject:* Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)
> 
> 
> 
> Robert Burnings said "With GT, there is no such thing as wasted, or excess
> power, its all converte

Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Peri Hartman via EV]

It really is a travesty. But to be fair, there is a cost to the utility 
company since they get less revenue but still must maintain the same 
level of infrastructure. Surely there's a better and fair way to do 
this.

Peri

<< Want to know about the effects of leaf blowers ? 
https://quietcleanseattle.org/ >>


-- Original Message --
From: "Robert Bruninga via EV" 
To: "Electric Vehicle Discussion List" 
Cc: "Robert Bruninga" 
Sent: 28-May-20 7:16:30 AM
Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)


Wow, that is a travesty.  Utilities should not be allowed to get away with
that kind of greed.



I’d say that ALL 16 kW of my solar production in the spring and fall and
most of the summer is EXCESS (when generated) since we don’t run AC except
on the hottest week or so of summer, and the only thing running is the
cycling of the Refrigerator.  So almost all of our production is banked in
the grid via NET metering until we use it for the 12 hours of sundown and
almost continuously in the winter for heatpump heat.



Not allowing homeowners to contribute to the grid during peak solar days
when the utility needs it most is a travesty of utility greed and
illiteracy of the community politcians. (in my humble opinion…)



Bob



*From:* Bobby Keeland 
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2020 4:58 PM
*To:* Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
*Cc:* Robert Bruninga 
*Subject:* Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)



Robert Burnings said "With GT, there is no such thing as wasted, or excess
power, its all converted to $$$ on your electric bill."



That all depends on your local electric company. When we produce more
electricity than we use the excess does go to the utility. We are not paid
for that electricity like people are in some other locations (States?). We
just get a VERY SLIGHT reduction in the cost of any electricity that we buy
from the utility at night.



To make matters worse our local electric utility is no longer installing
net meters when any customer adds solar panels to their home after January
1, 2020. I assume that anyone in my area that adds solar panels will have
the same situation that we had before we got net metering. Electricity that
we got from the utility we paid for. Any of our "excess electricity" that
we generated went to the utility, and we also paid for that. There is/was
any  in our case.



Dr. Bob Keeland

Louisiana



On Wed, May 27, 2020, 3:11 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

I disagree.  When you make a $10,000 investment in a solar array, any sun
that falls on it and does not give you retail value in return for the
electricity is truly a wasted economic value.  With GT, there is no such
thing as wasted, or excess power, its all converted to $$$ on your
electric bill.  And that is what lead the Solar explosion about a decade
ago.  No batteries, no maintenance, but economic power for  life...  at
Half the cost of the utility...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's

Willie via EV wrote:

 BTW, I believe someone mentioned that the not produced power when an
 inverter "cuts back" must be dissipated somewhere as heat.  I don't
 believe that is the case; I believe the inverter can just not produce
 the available power with no heat generation.


I agree. It would be a stupid design that burned it up as heat. Any sane
design would just turn off or throttle back the inverter. The energy isn't
"wasted" any more than the sunlight that falls on a sidewalk or street is
"wasted".

It does lead to an interesting question: If you have excess electric
power, what can you do with it to accomplish some useful purpose?
Provide free public EV charging? Light up a greenhouse to grow more food?
Run a freezer to store more food?

Lee Hart

--
When something bad happens, you have three choices: You can let it define
you; let it destroy you; or you can let it strengthen you.
-- Theodor Seuss Geisel
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, http://www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Robert Bruninga via EV]

Wow, that is a travesty.  Utilities should not be allowed to get away with
that kind of greed.



I’d say that ALL 16 kW of my solar production in the spring and fall and
most of the summer is EXCESS (when generated) since we don’t run AC except
on the hottest week or so of summer, and the only thing running is the
cycling of the Refrigerator.  So almost all of our production is banked in
the grid via NET metering until we use it for the 12 hours of sundown and
almost continuously in the winter for heatpump heat.



Not allowing homeowners to contribute to the grid during peak solar days
when the utility needs it most is a travesty of utility greed and
illiteracy of the community politcians. (in my humble opinion…)



Bob



*From:* Bobby Keeland 
*Sent:* Wednesday, May 27, 2020 4:58 PM
*To:* Electric Vehicle Discussion List 
*Cc:* Robert Bruninga 
*Subject:* Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)



Robert Burnings said "With GT, there is no such thing as wasted, or excess
power, its all converted to $$$ on your electric bill."



That all depends on your local electric company. When we produce more
electricity than we use the excess does go to the utility. We are not paid
for that electricity like people are in some other locations (States?). We
just get a VERY SLIGHT reduction in the cost of any electricity that we buy
from the utility at night.



To make matters worse our local electric utility is no longer installing
net meters when any customer adds solar panels to their home after January
1, 2020. I assume that anyone in my area that adds solar panels will have
the same situation that we had before we got net metering. Electricity that
we got from the utility we paid for. Any of our "excess electricity" that
we generated went to the utility, and we also paid for that. There is/was
any  in our case.



Dr. Bob Keeland

Louisiana



On Wed, May 27, 2020, 3:11 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

I disagree.  When you make a $10,000 investment in a solar array, any sun
that falls on it and does not give you retail value in return for the
electricity is truly a wasted economic value.  With GT, there is no such
thing as wasted, or excess power, its all converted to $$$ on your
electric bill.  And that is what lead the Solar explosion about a decade
ago.  No batteries, no maintenance, but economic power for  life...  at
Half the cost of the utility...

Bob

-Original Message-
From: EV  On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's

Willie via EV wrote:
> BTW, I believe someone mentioned that the not produced power when an
> inverter "cuts back" must be dissipated somewhere as heat.  I don't
> believe that is the case; I believe the inverter can just not produce
> the available power with no heat generation.

I agree. It would be a stupid design that burned it up as heat. Any sane
design would just turn off or throttle back the inverter. The energy isn't
"wasted" any more than the sunlight that falls on a sidewalk or street is
"wasted".

It does lead to an interesting question: If you have excess electric
power, what can you do with it to accomplish some useful purpose?
Provide free public EV charging? Light up a greenhouse to grow more food?
Run a freezer to store more food?

Lee Hart

--
When something bad happens, you have three choices: You can let it define
you; let it destroy you; or you can let it strengthen you.
-- Theodor Seuss Geisel
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Bobby Keeland via EV]

Robert Burnings said "With GT, there is no such thing as wasted, or excess
power, its all converted to $$$ on your electric bill."

That all depends on your local electric company. When we produce more
electricity than we use the excess does go to the utility. We are not paid
for that electricity like people are in some other locations (States?). We
just get a VERY SLIGHT reduction in the cost of any electricity that we buy
from the utility at night.

To make matters worse our local electric utility is no longer installing
net meters when any customer adds solar panels to their home after January
1, 2020. I assume that anyone in my area that adds solar panels will have
the same situation that we had before we got net metering. Electricity that
we got from the utility we paid for. Any of our "excess electricity" that
we generated went to the utility, and we also paid for that. There is/was
any  in our case.

Dr. Bob Keeland
Louisiana

On Wed, May 27, 2020, 3:11 PM Robert Bruninga via EV 
wrote:

> I disagree.  When you make a $10,000 investment in a solar array, any sun
> that falls on it and does not give you retail value in return for the
> electricity is truly a wasted economic value.  With GT, there is no such
> thing as wasted, or excess power, its all converted to $$$ on your
> electric bill.  And that is what lead the Solar explosion about a decade
> ago.  No batteries, no maintenance, but economic power for  life...  at
> Half the cost of the utility...
>
> Bob
>
> -Original Message-
> From: EV  On Behalf Of Lee Hart via EV
> Subject: Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's
>
> Willie via EV wrote:
> > BTW, I believe someone mentioned that the not produced power when an
> > inverter "cuts back" must be dissipated somewhere as heat.  I don't
> > believe that is the case; I believe the inverter can just not produce
> > the available power with no heat generation.
>
> I agree. It would be a stupid design that burned it up as heat. Any sane
> design would just turn off or throttle back the inverter. The energy isn't
> "wasted" any more than the sunlight that falls on a sidewalk or street is
> "wasted".
>
> It does lead to an interesting question: If you have excess electric
> power, what can you do with it to accomplish some useful purpose?
> Provide free public EV charging? Light up a greenhouse to grow more food?
> Run a freezer to store more food?
>
> Lee Hart
>
> --
> When something bad happens, you have three choices: You can let it define
> you; let it destroy you; or you can let it strengthen you.
> -- Theodor Seuss Geisel
> --
> Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
> ___
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Re: [EVDL] : V2g for DIY EV's (economics)

[Lee Hart via EV]

Robert Bruninga via EV wrote:

I disagree.  When you make a $10,000 investment in a solar array, any sun
that falls on it and does not give you retail value in return for the
electricity is truly a wasted economic value.


I guess it's wasted if you consider money as "waste". And, if your 
utility isn't *charging* you for excess generation.


But not every locale has net metering. And some utilities *do* charge 
you for excess generation.


Lee Hart

--
Money often costs too much. -- Ralph Waldo Emerson
--
Lee Hart, 814 8th Ave N, Sartell MN 56377, www.sunrise-ev.com
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