Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
It is no problem, as long as the curbside charger is near your home (and available). Most Americans don't park in their garages either - when I look around in the area, a great number of garages are either converted to living space (legally or not) or simply stacked floor to bottom with junk eh, ahem, I mean with important belongings that can't be just tossed out. (but also have no place inside the home, so they live in the garage) Whenever the city tries to get people to use their garages and driveways to park, instead of the public street (for example when a redesign of the road is needed) then there is a lot of pushback from people who cannot possibly be required to park their private property on their own property and who demand that they need public transportation infrastructure constructed in such a way that they can store their belongings on it. Hmm, what is wrong with that picture. But anyway - most EV drivers in USA have a charger installed in the garage or next to the driveway, so curbside charging is not much needed (yet). When more vehicles are exchanged for EVs, the need will rise because then the people who live in apartment buildings and other multi-tenant structures, as well as those living where no or not enough on-site parking is available, will need curbside EVSE. There are few EVSE that I know of that are constructed curb-side. One notable example is in Palo Alto. I believe that Otmar used to have a curbside charging station - not sure if that one was legal, but definitely Sven Thesen from ProjectGreenHome.org has a legal curbside EVSE installed. Short answer - as long as you can charge overnight and close to your home, there should be little difference whether the EVSE is on your property or on the public street, as long as it is available (ie there are enough spots). That is one of the reasons that the share-vehicle system in Paris is so popular: people do not care much that there are thousands of EV waiting on every city block that they can rent by the half hour, but they are very happy with being able to reserve a car *and* a parking space from their smartphone, because there are more than double the parking spaces than vehicles (each space having a charging station that can also be used by privately owned EVs!) Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:22 PM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem On 19 Nov 2014 at 13:08, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: probably eventually, a lot of curbside charging for those who can't park on premises for whatever reason. The US tends to be more focused on suburbia, so we often forget about the Europeans who live in city houses and apartments and park their cars on the public streets. They have no garages or even dedicated private parking spaces, so they have no places to fit privately owned chargers. This is also true in some US cities, but I think fewer than in Europe. Having no way to charge at home means you have to use paid charging stations. It's just like fueling an ICEV, but it takes longer and you have to do it more often. This HAS to be a drag on EV adoption, no? David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 10:58 PM, Chris Meier m...@comcast.net wrote: Uber? Lyft? Have them pick it up for you, and you retain that hour... As in my case, and that of another poster, sometimes you really have to be there. Quickly. Chris -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141119/bd0d2c8a/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
A person's viewpoint on this and many other things depends on how risk averse s/he is, and we all tend to think our level of risk aversion is just about right and any that is quite different is unreasonable. We are also very good at self-justifying our position by concocting different hypothetical scenarios which support it and rejecting as unreasonable those that don't, regardless of our position. I don't think there is any reasonable or unreasonable position here...everyone has their own comfort level. I expect your friend would not take a job which requires him to travel overseas frequently, but others think nothing of it. There is a wide spectrum, from people who rarely venture outside their homes to those who have no home and wander the world seeking adventure. Our arguments for which is right is mainly to reassure ourselves that our world view is correct. We aren't likely to convince others that their position on this is wrong. -- View this message in context: http://electric-vehicle-discussion-list.413529.n4.nabble.com/Re-EVLN-Hand-wringing-EV-angst-is-not-a-real-problem-tp4672658p4672675.html Sent from the Electric Vehicle Discussion List mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On Nov 18, 2014, at 11:24 PM, Cor van de Water via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: If his colleague would either have asked anyone at that 1-day seminar to borrow the car for a few hours or he would have called a cab, he would have been with his wife as quickly as when his EV would have been fully charged or if he had taken a gasser for the day. Surprised nobody else has brought it up...but, if your boss requires you to have certain equipment to do a job, either the boss supplies the equipment or stipulates it as part of the terms of employment and compensates you accordingly. If the job requires a different vehicle from the one you own, or if, for whatever reason, you don't want to use that vehicle in the service of the job, it's up to the boss to supply you with proper equipment. I realize that, here in America, we're free to generously support our bosses and their financial interests from our own personal resources, and our bosses, in turn, are free to terminate the employment of those who don't properly pony up these types of bribes on demand, but that should be a different conversation. Either the company can afford to supply whatever vehicles are necessary to support this seminar, or their finances are so dire and / or mismanaged that they're not even going to be able to make payroll soon. Whether those vehicles are electric or gas-powered or what-not is the company's problem, though I'm sure we could help them figure out which electric vehicles should be on the short list for consideration. Cheers, b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:27 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: A person's viewpoint on this and many other things depends on how risk averse s/he is, and we all tend to think our level of risk aversion is just about right and any that is quite different is unreasonable. Range anxiety, I think, is even more governed by typical and expected use cases. If you have a five mile commute and the next city is thirty miles away and you can't imagine needing to go there on a whim, range anxiety isn't going to exist even with a vehicle with only 50 miles of range. If you live (as I do) in the Phoenix metro area, a vehicle with an 80-mile EPA range probably won't even be able to make it from Apache Junction (the city on the eastern edge of the Valley) to Buckeye (on the western edge) on a single charge. Risk aversion is going to be secondary to that. Maybe you live in the small town and you're not very risk averse, so a 20-mile range seems luxurious; maybe you live in the small town and you _are_ risk averse and that 50-mile range is what it takes to calm your fears. But, no matter how risk averse you are or aren't, if you live in Surprise and work in downtown Phoenix and can't plug in (a perfect description of another friend of mine), that 50-mile car isn't even going to get you all the way home. This same friend also sometimes has to go to Mesa as part of the job, and _that_ round trip is itself outside of even the Leaf's EPA range. She'd probably honestly need a 200-mile range just to get to the same level of lack of range anxiety as that person in the small town would have with a 20-mile range. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
Here's another point of view. Range anxiety doesn't so much come from the range of the vehicle but the ability to charge. Regardless of the range, at some point you will have to charge. If such places are easy to come by and charging doesn't take long, it's not a big deal. For example, if you need to drive across Phoenix and there are superchargers every 5 miles, you wouldn't think twice about running out of energy. At some point, you'd simply look at your gauge and say, I think I should stop and charge. Lo and behold, you'd spot a charge station, pull in, and charge. Charging is still in its naissance. The current build out of level 3 quick chargers gives a distorted impression. There seem to be plenty of level 3's in urban areas but only a sparse thread between cities. Aside from Tesla, the production EVs on the road today may not be able to make it between the sparsely located charge stations. On top of that, 20-30 minutes to charge is hardly convenient. Thus, people assume they need to make their trip without stopping to charge, resulting in range anxiety. A few years ago, everyone was talking about 100 miles per charge as the magic number; then EVs would really be practical. Well, we more-or-less reached that. Are they successful? I would say yes - they are now practical in urban environments for a very large number of people. The next magic number seems to be 200 miles. I think that number, combined with faster level 3 charging, will virtually eliminate range anxiety. You'll be able to go whereever and charge if you need to. But this only works if there are ample level 3 stations, and fast ones, on your rote. My conclusion is that range anxiety comes more from the lack of adequate charging facilities, not from the range of the vehicle. Peri -- Original Message -- From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: tomw tomofreno2...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: 19-Nov-14 7:08:04 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:27 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: A person's viewpoint on this and many other things depends on how risk averse s/he is, and we all tend to think our level of risk aversion is just about right and any that is quite different is unreasonable. Range anxiety, I think, is even more governed by typical and expected use cases. If you have a five mile commute and the next city is thirty miles away and you can't imagine needing to go there on a whim, range anxiety isn't going to exist even with a vehicle with only 50 miles of range. If you live (as I do) in the Phoenix metro area, a vehicle with an 80-mile EPA range probably won't even be able to make it from Apache Junction (the city on the eastern edge of the Valley) to Buckeye (on the western edge) on a single charge. Risk aversion is going to be secondary to that. Maybe you live in the small town and you're not very risk averse, so a 20-mile range seems luxurious; maybe you live in the small town and you _are_ risk averse and that 50-mile range is what it takes to calm your fears. But, no matter how risk averse you are or aren't, if you live in Surprise and work in downtown Phoenix and can't plug in (a perfect description of another friend of mine), that 50-mile car isn't even going to get you all the way home. This same friend also sometimes has to go to Mesa as part of the job, and _that_ round trip is itself outside of even the Leaf's EPA range. She'd probably honestly need a 200-mile range just to get to the same level of lack of range anxiety as that person in the small town would have with a 20-mile range. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 8:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Here's another point of view. My conclusion is that range anxiety comes more from the lack of adequate charging facilities, not from the range of the vehicle. Peri If my experience with my cell phone is anything to base it on, I'd say so I know that the battery only lasts 8 or 10 hours if I'm using it a lot. But if I bring my charger, so what I can charge it in the car or at work, so it's fine. If I forget the charger, all of a sudden I'm all worried about whether it'll still work at the end of the day and whether I'll be communicationless (though, 10 years ago, I didn't even own a cell phone and seemed to survive fine). -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141119/dde67c4a/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On Nov 19, 2014, at 8:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Range anxiety doesn't so much come from the range of the vehicle but the ability to charge. That's a good point. You can argue all day about the relative merits of at-home and on-the-go charging, but the fact remains that American culture is largely built around on-the-go charging. It's what people know and how they think. To replicate all hypothetical (not common) driving scenarios, at-home charging would need to be able to provide enough range for a full day of non-stop freeway driving -- maybe even 600 miles or even more. Anything less than that, and _somebody_ is _sometimes_ going to need to either rapidly charge at some random point along the way or else use something that's powered by gasoline. Again, debates over whether it's worth it to retain the capacity for these sorts of options that are rarely and maybe never used, the viability of using alternates, and all the rest...in many ways, it's irrelevant. For many Americans, this is what they already have, and they think we're crazy for suggesting that they should pay more (up front) for less. The initial challenge is to either match what they already have (fast charging stations nearly as ubiquitous as gas stations) or offer them something so superior in exchange that it more than makes up for the perceived loss. Though Americans like to bitch about gas prices, for most people they're only a nuisance, and not worth the reduced range. Either gas prices will have to get worse or the _purchase_ price of EVs will have to reach parity with ICEs for people to even _consider_ an EV. Remember: individuals rarely, if ever, do lifetime cost analyses. Give them a choice between a car with a sticker price of $20,000 that will burn $10,000 worth of gas over five years and a car that costs $27,000 but only uses $1,000 worth of electricity over that same five year period, and they'll choose the $20,000 car every time as being seven thousand dollars cheaper, even though it costs two thousand dollars more. Next up is the convenience of charging at home overnight and starting each day with a full tank rather than having to stop somewhere for gas. That's nice a nice feature, but, for most people, on the level of having the proper number of cup holders. Closely related is the much reduced need for maintenance...but cars are black boxes that people already don't understand, and most of the things that break have nothing to do with the drivetrain. The _only_ thing that people _actually_ get excited about that electric vehicles offer that's _superior_ to their gas counterparts...is performance. Y'all know it as the EV grin. And that's something that really could sell an awful lot of EVs to an awful lot of people who otherwise would think of them as a bad joke. As I keep writing, if Ford made an electric version of the Mustang and gave it a properly-sized motor, and if they marketed it as the fastest-accelerating production Mustang in history, they likely wouldn't be able to make them fast enough, _even_with_ a Leaf-style maximum range and a premium sticker price. Cheers, b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On 11/19/2014 10:59 AM, Ben Goren via EV wrote: On Nov 19, 2014, at 8:32 AM, Peri Hartman via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Range anxiety doesn't so much come from the range of the vehicle but the ability to charge. That's a good point. You can argue all day about the relative merits of at-home and on-the-go charging, but the fact remains that American culture is largely built around on-the-go charging. It's what people know and how they think. I'm not sure of that. I don't think EVs are ubiquitous enough to have become part of the American culture. Of course that's how gas cars work and some (many?) people have trouble imagining a world where they don't have to stop to fill up. [...] Next up is the convenience of charging at home overnight and starting each day with a full tank rather than having to stop somewhere for gas. That's nice a nice feature, but, for most people, on the level of having the proper number of cup holders. For me, that realization was the Ah-ha! moment I needed. When I'm evangelizing I ask people to imagine how big their gas tank would need to be if the car was filled by elves while they slept. Many people have thought about it and said 2 or 3 gallons. 60-90 miles. Personally I have 2 EVs and a plug-in hybrid now and with one exception I've only ever charged them at home. I'll tell you the exception in the next paragraph. Closely related is the much reduced need for maintenance...but cars are black boxes that people already don't understand, and most of the things that break have nothing to do with the drivetrain. New cars are remarkably reliable so mostly its the difference in scheduled maintenance. Even so, my Ford C-Max Energi has scheduled maintenance every 10,000 miles. The Smart ED I'm leasing has scheduled maintenance very 10,000 miles too. When I get there I'll let you know which was more expensive. It's 25 miles to the Smart dealer from my house and in the winter the range on the Smart is about 45 miles (75 in summer). So when I bring the car there for service in the cold their charge stations need to be working or the car is stuck there. That's my no-at-home charging exception. Personally I think plug-in hybrids like the Volt and my C-Max are probably the ideal vehicle to introduce people to EVs. Complexity aside, they may be the ideal vehicle for most people. I have a 20 mile round trip to work. The C-Max does about 25 miles electric in the summer (14 in winter) so most of my driving is pure electric. I put gas in the thing every 3 months or so and I hate it. I got the Smart because I got annoyed that the C-Max wasn't making the round trip as a pure EV in the winter (and because it was so inexpensive!). But I have the choice of either depending on where I need to go that day. A Volt with its 38 mile range would probably spend 95% of its time as an EV in my house. But there's no range anxiety. Well there is as anyone who owns a PHEV can tell you. It's reverse range anxiety. How far can I go before the damn gas engine kicks in? --Rick ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
I built mine 2 years ago. The only time I charged it anywhere besides my garage was when I towed it to EVCON. It's mostly a silly argument and most chargers around cities are never used. From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: tomw tomofreno2...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:27 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: A person's viewpoint on this and many other things depends on how risk averse s/he is, and we all tend to think our level of risk aversion is just about right and any that is quite different is unreasonable. Range anxiety, I think, is even more governed by typical and expected use cases. If you have a five mile commute and the next city is thirty miles away and you can't imagine needing to go there on a whim, range anxiety isn't going to exist even with a vehicle with only 50 miles of range. If you live (as I do) in the Phoenix metro area, a vehicle with an 80-mile EPA range probably won't even be able to make it from Apache Junction (the city on the eastern edge of the Valley) to Buckeye (on the western edge) on a single charge. Risk aversion is going to be secondary to that. Maybe you live in the small town and you're not very risk averse, so a 20-mile range seems luxurious; maybe you live in the small town and you _are_ risk averse and that 50-mile range is what it takes to calm your fears. But, no matter how risk averse you are or aren't, if you live in Surprise and work in downtown Phoenix and can't plug in (a perfect description of another friend of mine), that 50-mile car isn't even going to get you all the way home. This same friend also sometimes has to go to Mesa as part of the job, and _that_ round trip is itself outside of even the Leaf's EPA range. She'd probably honestly need a 200-mile range just to get to the same level of lack of range anxiety as that person in the small town would have with a 20-mile range. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141119/90b83eec/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
You certainly can't rely on public chargers, or at least I haven't had the nerve to yet... I only charge at work or home. Regards, Stephen On Wed, Nov 19, 2014 at 8:38 AM, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: I built mine 2 years ago. The only time I charged it anywhere besides my garage was when I towed it to EVCON. It's mostly a silly argument and most chargers around cities are never used. From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: tomw tomofreno2...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:27 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: A person's viewpoint on this and many other things depends on how risk averse s/he is, and we all tend to think our level of risk aversion is just about right and any that is quite different is unreasonable. Range anxiety, I think, is even more governed by typical and expected use cases. If you have a five mile commute and the next city is thirty miles away and you can't imagine needing to go there on a whim, range anxiety isn't going to exist even with a vehicle with only 50 miles of range. If you live (as I do) in the Phoenix metro area, a vehicle with an 80-mile EPA range probably won't even be able to make it from Apache Junction (the city on the eastern edge of the Valley) to Buckeye (on the western edge) on a single charge. Risk aversion is going to be secondary to that. Maybe you live in the small town and you're not very risk averse, so a 20-mile range seems luxurious; maybe you live in the small town and you _are_ risk averse and that 50-mile range is what it takes to calm your fears. But, no matter how risk averse you are or aren't, if you live in Surprise and work in downtown Phoenix and can't plug in (a perfect description of another friend of mine), that 50-mile car isn't even going to get you all the way home. This same friend also sometimes has to go to Mesa as part of the job, and _that_ round trip is itself outside of even the Leaf's EPA range. She'd probably honestly need a 200-mile range just to get to the same level of lack of range anxiety as that person in the small town would have with a 20-mile range. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141119/90b83eec/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141119/d94fc742/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
Stephen via EV wrote: You certainly can't rely on public chargers, or at least I haven't had the nerve to yet... I only charge at work or home. I feel the same way. It may be occupied, or broken, or it's only for other brands of EVs, or I don't have the right 'card' etc. I hate going to gas stations. It's one of the reasons I like EVs so much -- I can refuel at home. Having to go to a filling station to charge my EV negates the whole point of having an EV. If I have a longer trip, I take an ICE. -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On 19 Nov 2014 at 12:13, Lee Hart via EV wrote: I [prefer charging at home]. [A public charger] may be occupied, or broken, or it's only for other brands of EVs, or I don't have the right 'card' etc. Like (I think) Ben Goren, in the last few years, even before some of the recent news revelations, I've been developing more concern for personal privacy. Some of my friends have commented on my growing collection of stylish tinfoil hats ;-). Those activation cards for charging stations - from what I can tell, cash is never an option, as it is at gasoline filling stations - make me a little uncomfortable. When you use them, you're effectively being tracked. The data are logged somewhere, and who knows how good the security is? It's one more hole in your privacy shield. OK, it's probably not a big one, but still it's another place for your personal data to leak out. So, that's one more advantage for home charging : improved privacy. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
Hi Stephen and All, I've been EVing for 20 yrs now and found early on the beauty of lightweight EV's, 250-1000lbs that can be charged from 120vac outlets fairly fast because they have small pack and use little/mile. My most recent Harley Servcecar size trike pickup only needs 60wthrs/mile so charges about 25 mph at 120vac outlets. Soon will have a full aero cabin cutting drag more. Luckily there are 6 billon? of 120vac outlets to chose from. I've never used one of the new ones as they are not where I'm going usually still but 120vac outlets I can find near everywhere. As can no longer walk far my solution is a range extender that will be rarely used for long range. Jerry Dycus. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141119/3e8fb4b0/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On Wed, 11/19/14, paul dove via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem To: Ben Goren b...@trumpetpower.com, tomw tomofreno2...@yahoo.com, Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org, Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Date: Wednesday, November 19, 2014, 11:38 AM I built mine 2 years ago. The only time I charged it anywhere besides my garage was when I towed it to EVCON. It's mostly a silly argument and most chargers around cities are never used. Because for various reasons, many are ICE'd or the blessed chargers dont work or they want 50+ cents a kWh or similar. so i charge at home From: Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org To: tomw tomofreno2...@yahoo.com; Electric Vehicle Discussion List ev@lists.evdl.org Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 9:08 AM Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem On Nov 19, 2014, at 7:27 AM, tomw via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: A person's viewpoint on this and many other things depends on how risk averse s/he is, and we all tend to think our level of risk aversion is just about right and any that is quite different is unreasonable. Range anxiety, I think, is even more governed by typical and expected use cases. If you have a five mile commute and the next city is thirty miles away and you can't imagine needing to go there on a whim, range anxiety isn't going to exist even with a vehicle with only 50 miles of range. If you live (as I do) in the Phoenix metro area, a vehicle with an 80-mile EPA range probably won't even be able to make it from Apache Junction (the city on the eastern edge of the Valley) to Buckeye (on the western edge) on a single charge. Risk aversion is going to be secondary to that. Maybe you live in the small town and you're not very risk averse, so a 20-mile range seems luxurious; maybe you live in the small town and you _are_ risk averse and that 50-mile range is what it takes to calm your fears. But, no matter how risk averse you are or aren't, if you live in Surprise and work in downtown Phoenix and can't plug in (a perfect description of another friend of mine), that 50-mile car isn't even going to get you all the way home. This same friend also sometimes has to go to Mesa as part of the job, and _that_ round trip is itself outside of even the Leaf's EPA range. She'd probably honestly need a 200-mile range just to get to the same level of lack of range anxiety as that person in the small town would have with a 20-mile range. b ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141119/90b83eec/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
Ben Goren wrote: ... but the fact remains that American culture is largely built around on-the-go charging. It's what people know and how they think. That is not culture, that is a habit. It may be difficult to break, but habits change. Today you see long lines to buy coffee at Starbucks, these were not there 10 years ago - someone created that habit, many followed. One simple question: where do you charge your cellphone and laptop? On-the-go or at home or both? I think the same is true for EVs. There won't be electric plug-in stations on every streetcorner in the near future. There will be scattered public charging stations and a concentration in every shopping and work destination, plus the normal one you use for overnight charging in your garage/carport/assigned parking space and probably eventually, a lot of curbside charging for those who can't park on premises for whatever reason. Regards, Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
I believe that some home installed chargers are still networked, so they are still tracking you - this is sold as that you can set different rates for your own RFID and others, but I prefer to not have a smart charger. I like the simplicity of an extension cord: copper cable and connectors, that is all you need to charge. To comply with the new standard, I have added a resistor and a diode so I can tap from J1772 but prefer the stations that you simply insert the connector and it starts supplying power without waving one of the many RFID cards that I needed to register for... I have a JuiceBox and I have several Power Packs, none of them is networked. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of EVDL Administrator via EV Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2014 11:21 AM To: Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem On 19 Nov 2014 at 12:13, Lee Hart via EV wrote: I [prefer charging at home]. [A public charger] may be occupied, or broken, or it's only for other brands of EVs, or I don't have the right 'card' etc. Like (I think) Ben Goren, in the last few years, even before some of the recent news revelations, I've been developing more concern for personal privacy. Some of my friends have commented on my growing collection of stylish tinfoil hats ;-). Those activation cards for charging stations - from what I can tell, cash is never an option, as it is at gasoline filling stations - make me a little uncomfortable. When you use them, you're effectively being tracked. The data are logged somewhere, and who knows how good the security is? It's one more hole in your privacy shield. OK, it's probably not a big one, but still it's another place for your personal data to leak out. So, that's one more advantage for home charging : improved privacy. David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On Nov 19, 2014, at 9:58 AM, Rick Beebe via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Personally I think plug-in hybrids like the Volt and my C-Max are probably the ideal vehicle to introduce people to EVs. I agree enough that that's the route I'm planning on taking for my own conversion: add a couple HPEVS AC-51s to the undercarriage of my 1964 1/2 Mustang belted to the driveshaft and with a small battery pack to get a Volt-inspired PHEV. 80% of my trips will be 100% electric, but it'll still work great for those trips to the other side of the Valley, as well as road trips and what-not. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141119/13cfbaa3/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On Nov 19, 2014, at 12:21 PM, EVDL Administrator via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: So, that's one more advantage for home charging : improved privacy. Privacy improved even over gasoline...use your credit card at the gas station, and at least your bank knows where you are. Charge at home and, at most, your electric utility might maybe be able to guess how many miles you drive. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141119/4723903c/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On 19 Nov 2014 at 13:08, Cor van de Water via EV wrote: probably eventually, a lot of curbside charging for those who can't park on premises for whatever reason. The US tends to be more focused on suburbia, so we often forget about the Europeans who live in city houses and apartments and park their cars on the public streets. They have no garages or even dedicated private parking spaces, so they have no places to fit privately owned chargers. This is also true in some US cities, but I think fewer than in Europe. Having no way to charge at home means you have to use paid charging stations. It's just like fueling an ICEV, but it takes longer and you have to do it more often. This HAS to be a drag on EV adoption, no? David Roden - Akron, Ohio, USA EVDL Administrator = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = EVDL Information: http://www.evdl.org/help/ = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = Note: mail sent to evpost and etpost addresses will not reach me. To send a private message, please obtain my email address from the webpage http://www.evdl.org/help/ . = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
EVDL Administrator via EV wrote: The US tends to be more focused on suburbia, so we often forget about the Europeans who live in city houses and apartments and park their cars on the public streets. They have no garages or even dedicated private parking spaces, so they have no places to fit privately owned chargers. Having no way to charge at home means you have to use paid charging stations. It's just like fueling an ICEV, but it takes longer and you have to do it more often. This HAS to be a drag on EV adoption, no? For decades, those of us in the snow belt have had free widespread public charging stations. They are normal 120vac outlets, installed to plug in block heaters so our cars will start in the winter. They can be found everywhere people park; parking lots, curbside, apartments, etc. The other obvious candidates are parking meters. Many of them are now electrical, and have 120vac service. It would be trivially easy to add a standard 120vac receptacle with a weatherproof cover, that is switched on when you put money in the meter. I honestly think those who see the lack of EV infrastructure as an insurmountable problem are just not thinking about it clearly. -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Range anxiety is often cited as one of the major reasons battery electric vehicles have yet to take off in the mass market. But does it actually exist in practice? That friend of mine whom I mentioned a week or three ago is, I think, a typical example of how range anxiety expresses itself. Best I can tell, he's the ideal example of somebody who'd be happiest with one of today's freeway-capable production electric vehicles. More than enough range for what he actually drives, plus all of the other advantages the rest of the choir here knows so well. But he's worried that there might be some random emergency with the wife or kids or parents that has him driving all over creation on no notice when he's already at work and thus used up a quarter of his range. I don't think he's ever actually _had_ such an emergency that a typical electric vehicle would be unable to handle...but the fear remains. I think 200 might be the magic number for my friend and people like him. Most people are going to think of that as a 100=mile radius, and think of that as more than enough Murphy factor to not have to worry. Only those with insane commutes are going to think of that as not being enough. Reality doesn't necessarily play much of a role in these sorts of decisions. I could suggest that, for the once-a-decade time (if that) my friend actually needs to make that sort of an emergency excursion he could easily hire a cab, and it wouldn't matter. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it is the mentality at work. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141118/dc23c8be/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
FWIW, I still remember the day a week before a trade show when something went FUBAR on must-have-for-trade-show parts. I ended up driving over 80 miles before lunch. It does happen, and I don't want to be making excuses for my EV. I'm thinking the public will be OK with 150 miles and happy with 200. Chris On Nov 18, 2014 1:37 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Range anxiety is often cited as one of the major reasons battery electric vehicles have yet to take off in the mass market. But does it actually exist in practice? That friend of mine whom I mentioned a week or three ago is, I think, a typical example of how range anxiety expresses itself. Best I can tell, he's the ideal example of somebody who'd be happiest with one of today's freeway-capable production electric vehicles. More than enough range for what he actually drives, plus all of the other advantages the rest of the choir here knows so well. But he's worried that there might be some random emergency with the wife or kids or parents that has him driving all over creation on no notice when he's already at work and thus used up a quarter of his range. I don't think he's ever actually _had_ such an emergency that a typical electric vehicle would be unable to handle...but the fear remains. I think 200 might be the magic number for my friend and people like him. Most people are going to think of that as a 100=mile radius, and think of that as more than enough Murphy factor to not have to worry. Only those with insane commutes are going to think of that as not being enough. Reality doesn't necessarily play much of a role in these sorts of decisions. I could suggest that, for the once-a-decade time (if that) my friend actually needs to make that sort of an emergency excursion he could easily hire a cab, and it wouldn't matter. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it is the mentality at work. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141118/dc23c8be/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141118/38c953c3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
My friend drove to an all day conference about 40 miles away. No problem. Plug in all day. Until his wife ended up back home in the emergency room and it took him a few hours on L2 to get enough charge to get home. He is still living that down. I am a full beliver that 80 mile range is enough. But I am aware of the above example. But still, had he carpooled, or so many other things could have also happened, that I just chalk it up to life happens. Bob -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 1:37 PM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Range anxiety is often cited as one of the major reasons battery electric vehicles have yet to take off in the mass market. But does it actually exist in practice? That friend of mine whom I mentioned a week or three ago is, I think, a typical example of how range anxiety expresses itself. Best I can tell, he's the ideal example of somebody who'd be happiest with one of today's freeway-capable production electric vehicles. More than enough range for what he actually drives, plus all of the other advantages the rest of the choir here knows so well. But he's worried that there might be some random emergency with the wife or kids or parents that has him driving all over creation on no notice when he's already at work and thus used up a quarter of his range. I don't think he's ever actually _had_ such an emergency that a typical electric vehicle would be unable to handle...but the fear remains. I think 200 might be the magic number for my friend and people like him. Most people are going to think of that as a 100=mile radius, and think of that as more than enough Murphy factor to not have to worry. Only those with insane commutes are going to think of that as not being enough. Reality doesn't necessarily play much of a role in these sorts of decisions. I could suggest that, for the once-a-decade time (if that) my friend actually needs to make that sort of an emergency excursion he could easily hire a cab, and it wouldn't matter. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it is the mentality at work. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141118/dc23c8 be/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
I guess all of your collegues drive either a Humvee or a Leopard tank? Self-reliance is good - up to a point. As long as my range brings me where I need to go, I am fine and for emergencies there is a whole host of options, including swapping cars with someone that does not need theirs during your emergency or using alternative transportation as you already indicated. You could poke fun at them by warning that one day you will need to use their vehicle when yours can't make the trip in an emergency - see how they squirm ;-) I am squarely in the corner of just enough and laugh at the unwise people lugging many thousands of pounds around, burning more money than they can afford, just to satisfy the confusion between need and desire. /rant off Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Ben Goren via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 10:37 AM To: brucedp5; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Range anxiety is often cited as one of the major reasons battery electric vehicles have yet to take off in the mass market. But does it actually exist in practice? That friend of mine whom I mentioned a week or three ago is, I think, a typical example of how range anxiety expresses itself. Best I can tell, he's the ideal example of somebody who'd be happiest with one of today's freeway-capable production electric vehicles. More than enough range for what he actually drives, plus all of the other advantages the rest of the choir here knows so well. But he's worried that there might be some random emergency with the wife or kids or parents that has him driving all over creation on no notice when he's already at work and thus used up a quarter of his range. I don't think he's ever actually _had_ such an emergency that a typical electric vehicle would be unable to handle...but the fear remains. I think 200 might be the magic number for my friend and people like him. Most people are going to think of that as a 100=mile radius, and think of that as more than enough Murphy factor to not have to worry. Only those with insane commutes are going to think of that as not being enough. Reality doesn't necessarily play much of a role in these sorts of decisions. I could suggest that, for the once-a-decade time (if that) my friend actually needs to make that sort of an emergency excursion he could easily hire a cab, and it wouldn't matter. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it is the mentality at work. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141118/dc23 c8be/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
Cor van de Water via EV wrote: I am squarely in the corner of just enough and laugh at the unwise people lugging many thousands of pounds around, burning more money than they can afford, just to satisfy the confusion between need and desire. And of course, there could be another Arab Oil Embargo, or other disaster that means you can't buy gas, or that it's rationed. Those of us with EVs will just keep on driving. :-) -- Don't worry about people stealing your ideas. If your ideas are any good, you'll have to ram them down people's throats. -- Howard Aiken -- Lee Hart's EV projects are at http://www.sunrise-ev.com/LeesEVs.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
Bob wrote - My friend drove to an all day conference about 40 miles away. No problem. Plug in all day. Until his wife ended up back home in the emergency room and it took him a few hours on L2 to get enough charge to get home. He is still living that down. I am a full beliver that 80 mile range is enough. But I am aware of the above example. But still, had he carpooled, or so many other things could have also happened, that I just chalk it up to life happens. Bob So if he had gotten into a fender bender where he could not have driven the car, he would have waited until it was fixed before going home or to the emergency room? Rush Tucson AZ ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
I'm not sure I agree... I think that everything has its limits and it's fine to admit and respect them. Let me ask you, if your boss, the day of the must-have-for-trade-show parts asks you to pick up 20 bags of cement, and it would grossly overload the springs of your care, would you say Yes of course, or No my car cannot take that kind of weight? Rush Tucson AZ -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tromley via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:04 PM To: Ben Goren; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem FWIW, I still remember the day a week before a trade show when something went FUBAR on must-have-for-trade-show parts. I ended up driving over 80 miles before lunch. It does happen, and I don't want to be making excuses for my EV. I'm thinking the public will be OK with 150 miles and happy with 200. Chris On Nov 18, 2014 1:37 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Range anxiety is often cited as one of the major reasons battery electric vehicles have yet to take off in the mass market. But does it actually exist in practice? That friend of mine whom I mentioned a week or three ago is, I think, a typical example of how range anxiety expresses itself. Best I can tell, he's the ideal example of somebody who'd be happiest with one of today's freeway-capable production electric vehicles. More than enough range for what he actually drives, plus all of the other advantages the rest of the choir here knows so well. But he's worried that there might be some random emergency with the wife or kids or parents that has him driving all over creation on no notice when he's already at work and thus used up a quarter of his range. I don't think he's ever actually _had_ such an emergency that a typical electric vehicle would be unable to handle...but the fear remains. I think 200 might be the magic number for my friend and people like him. Most people are going to think of that as a 100=mile radius, and think of that as more than enough Murphy factor to not have to worry. Only those with insane commutes are going to think of that as not being enough. Reality doesn't necessarily play much of a role in these sorts of decisions. I could suggest that, for the once-a-decade time (if that) my friend actually needs to make that sort of an emergency excursion he could easily hire a cab, and it wouldn't matter. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it is the mentality at work. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141118/dc2 3c8be/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev- evdl.org/attachments/20141118/38c953c3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
On Tue, Nov 18, 2014 at 7:28 PM, Rush Dougherty r...@ironandwood.org wrote: I'm not sure I agree... I think that everything has its limits and it's fine to admit and respect them. Hold that thought - more later... Let me ask you, if your boss, the day of the must-have-for-trade-show parts asks you to pick up 20 bags of cement, and it would grossly overload the springs of your care, would you say Yes of course, or No my car cannot take that kind of weight? My car doesn't fly either. But somehow it wouldn't disappoint anyone to tell them my car was unable to get me across the continent within a day. As you say, ... everything has its limits and it's fine to admit and respect them. But there are also expectations to consider. There is no way I would be riding my bicycle to work when there are many loose ends to tie off before a high-stakes deadline like a trade show. A car is a tool that assists in carrying out the many responsibilities we have. I need my car to function. Without fail. Most people expect the same, but they don't even think about it. Until that very important tool falls short. The expectations people have for their cars are a large part of the reason Mr. and Ms Public are still hesitant about EVs. Hobbyists like you and I recognized the value of this technology early on and were willing to put up with its pre-fully-developed limitations. Now is not the time to hold onto that willingness, because now is when the Public needs to start getting on board in a big way. I didn't really get it when Elon Musk insisted on giving the Model S such an enormous range. Even though I know I would never need that much, now I understand his reasoning. People won't buy if they don't feel comfortable with their purchase. Even me. That's why my conversion was good for 80 mpc using lead. I was seriously considering buying an i-Miev recently for my 46 mile round-trip commute, until I realized its 60+ range wasn't enough in the real world. Old-school conversion mentality doesn't play well in the world of public opinion, and that's what matters if we want acceptance for EVs. Chris -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141118/3987e270/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
Uber? Lyft? Have them pick it up for you, and you retain that hour... On November 18, 2014 1:04:13 PM CST, Chris Tromley via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: FWIW, I still remember the day a week before a trade show when something went FUBAR on must-have-for-trade-show parts. I ended up driving over 80 miles before lunch. It does happen, and I don't want to be making excuses for my EV. I'm thinking the public will be OK with 150 miles and happy with 200. Chris On Nov 18, 2014 1:37 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Range anxiety is often cited as one of the major reasons battery electric vehicles have yet to take off in the mass market. But does it actually exist in practice? That friend of mine whom I mentioned a week or three ago is, I think, a typical example of how range anxiety expresses itself. Best I can tell, he's the ideal example of somebody who'd be happiest with one of today's freeway-capable production electric vehicles. More than enough range for what he actually drives, plus all of the other advantages the rest of the choir here knows so well. But he's worried that there might be some random emergency with the wife or kids or parents that has him driving all over creation on no notice when he's already at work and thus used up a quarter of his range. I don't think he's ever actually _had_ such an emergency that a typical electric vehicle would be unable to handle...but the fear remains. I think 200 might be the magic number for my friend and people like him. Most people are going to think of that as a 100=mile radius, and think of that as more than enough Murphy factor to not have to worry. Only those with insane commutes are going to think of that as not being enough. Reality doesn't necessarily play much of a role in these sorts of decisions. I could suggest that, for the once-a-decade time (if that) my friend actually needs to make that sort of an emergency excursion he could easily hire a cab, and it wouldn't matter. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it is the mentality at work. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141118/dc23c8be/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141118/38c953c3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity. -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141118/99e18125/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA)
Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem
Occasionally I bicycle to an airport or to a local car rental or U-haul place, since that seems to me the most efficient use of transport: use whatever tool is needed to get the job done. Taxis definitely fit into the picture, especially in case of emergency. If his colleague would either have asked anyone at that 1-day seminar to borrow the car for a few hours or he would have called a cab, he would have been with his wife as quickly as when his EV would have been fully charged or if he had taken a gasser for the day. If he should want to blame himself, it should be for his decision to stay with his car instead of finding a way to go to his wife. I occasionally swap car with a friend - usually if they want to borrow our efficient Prius for a longer trip, sometimes because I need to borrow a certain vehicle (truck) that can go further than my EV truck. Cor van de Water Chief Scientist Proxim Wireless Corporation http://www.proxim.com Email: cwa...@proxim.com Private: http://www.cvandewater.info Skype: cor_van_de_water Tel: +1 408 383 7626 -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Rush Dougherty via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 4:28 PM To: 'Chris Tromley'; 'Electric Vehicle Discussion List' Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem I'm not sure I agree... I think that everything has its limits and it's fine to admit and respect them. Let me ask you, if your boss, the day of the must-have-for-trade-show parts asks you to pick up 20 bags of cement, and it would grossly overload the springs of your care, would you say Yes of course, or No my car cannot take that kind of weight? Rush Tucson AZ -Original Message- From: EV [mailto:ev-boun...@lists.evdl.org] On Behalf Of Chris Tromley via EV Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2014 12:04 PM To: Ben Goren; Electric Vehicle Discussion List Subject: Re: [EVDL] EVLN: Hand-wringing EV angst is not a real problem FWIW, I still remember the day a week before a trade show when something went FUBAR on must-have-for-trade-show parts. I ended up driving over 80 miles before lunch. It does happen, and I don't want to be making excuses for my EV. I'm thinking the public will be OK with 150 miles and happy with 200. Chris On Nov 18, 2014 1:37 PM, Ben Goren via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: On Nov 18, 2014, at 3:49 AM, brucedp5 via EV ev@lists.evdl.org wrote: Range anxiety is often cited as one of the major reasons battery electric vehicles have yet to take off in the mass market. But does it actually exist in practice? That friend of mine whom I mentioned a week or three ago is, I think, a typical example of how range anxiety expresses itself. Best I can tell, he's the ideal example of somebody who'd be happiest with one of today's freeway-capable production electric vehicles. More than enough range for what he actually drives, plus all of the other advantages the rest of the choir here knows so well. But he's worried that there might be some random emergency with the wife or kids or parents that has him driving all over creation on no notice when he's already at work and thus used up a quarter of his range. I don't think he's ever actually _had_ such an emergency that a typical electric vehicle would be unable to handle...but the fear remains. I think 200 might be the magic number for my friend and people like him. Most people are going to think of that as a 100=mile radius, and think of that as more than enough Murphy factor to not have to worry. Only those with insane commutes are going to think of that as not being enough. Reality doesn't necessarily play much of a role in these sorts of decisions. I could suggest that, for the once-a-decade time (if that) my friend actually needs to make that sort of an emergency excursion he could easily hire a cab, and it wouldn't matter. It's better to have it and not need it than need it and not have it is the mentality at work. b -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: signature.asc Type: application/pgp-signature Size: 801 bytes Desc: Message signed with OpenPGP using GPGMail URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev-evdl.org/attachments/20141118/dc2 3c8be/attachment.pgp ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA ( http://groups.yahoo.com/group/NEDRA) -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: http://lists.evdl.org/private.cgi/ev- evdl.org/attachments/20141118/38c953c3/attachment.htm ___ UNSUBSCRIBE: http://www.evdl.org/help/index.html#usub http://lists.evdl.org/listinfo.cgi/ev-evdl.org For EV drag racing discussion, please use NEDRA (http
