Re: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory
Hi Bruno Marchal I understand that comp does not include subjectivity, but that's just explicitly. Perhaps something can be made of the results, like extract energy (structure, which I take to be an essential of consciousness) from the results. Hmmm. That would be a numerical caclulation. Could you be wrong ? Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/6/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-05, 11:13:06 Subject: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory Hi Richard, Stephen, Roger, Dual aspect theories are plausibly incompatible with comp. In that sense Craig is more coherent, but Stephen, and Chalmers, seems not. They avoid the comp necessary reformulation of the mind-body problem. It is still Aristotle theory variants, unaware of the first person indeterminacy. It might be compatible with comp, but then this asks for a non trivial derivation, and some conspiracy of the numbers. Bruno On 05 Oct 2012, at 13:15, Richard Ruquist wrote: Along the theme of a dual-aspect theory of reality, I recommend the book Mind and Cosmos:Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False by Nagel, Thomas. It actually has little to do with Darwin but rather discusses how consciousness, cognition, etc. cannot not be explained by materialism. Richard On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Many thanks, Stephan ! I should have known it before, but double-aspect and/or dual-aspect theories of mind aren't afraid of using the word subjectivity. Now all they have to do is find out who or what is the subjectr of subjectivity ! Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-04, 09:14:20 Subject: A nice video discussing the dual aspect theory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ3Z-Y99wW0 -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory
Hi Roger Clough, On 06 Oct 2012, at 12:46, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Bruno Marchal I understand that comp does not include subjectivity, but that's just explicitly. ? Comp is defined by the invariance of subjectivity for some transforms, so it includes subjectivity at the start. And, in the conclusion, it gives to subjectivity and consciousness the quasi primary goal for everything, except the numbers that we, and all scientists, have to postulate initially. I have no clue why you think that comp does not include subjectivity. Comp is the theological believe in the possibility in a form of technological reincarnation. This assumes subjectivity and persons in an important way. The consequence is that you survive anyway, and that dying is no more logically possible or even meaningfull, but that is in the consequence. I don't know if it is true, but the whole theory (comp) is testable, as physics is entirely retrievable in comp (and up to now, it gives the correct quantum logic). Perhaps something can be made of the results, like extract energy (structure, which I take to be an essential of consciousness) from the results. Hmmm. That would be a numerical caclulation. Could you be wrong ? Sure. Comp can be wrong, and my argument can be wrong too, but then the argument is precise enough so that you if you assert that it is wrong, you have to find where (if enough polite 'course). Perhaps mind, like Maxwell's Demon, makes sense of raw experience. Finds structure or whatever. That's called Secondness. Yes. That is what all universal systems do all the time, almost everywhere, in arithmetic. They build sense from patterns, in a variated inexhaustible number of manner, and this by participating simultaneously to infinities of computations (that is special number relations). I wonder if something like this, used as a (Secondness) filter on the (Firstness) output of comp , could provide (Thirdness) structured consciousness. It is not entirely meaningless, but it still assumes Aristotle, and does not really approach the question in philosophy of mind/matter. It assumes the basic Aristotelian metaphysics which I argue to be logically incompatible with comp. There is not output to comp, as comp is not a program or a machine, but a theory, which just postulates that your subjective life is invariant for a a digital change made at some description level of your brain or body. The consequence is that the brain and your body are emergent relative patterns in arithmetic. It makes the whole physics a branch of the theology of numbers, itself part of arithmetic. Comp is just the assumption that we are machine. It is the favorite hypothesis of the materialist, which are understandably not happy with the result which is that comp is incompatible with even very weak version of materialism (the belief in the existence of Matter or primary matter and that is a relation with the matter we can observe). COMP+ WEAK-MATERIALISM == 0 = 1. To be sure, COMP is still compatible, logically, with the existence of primary matter as an epinoumenon (that is a Matter not related to anything we can subjectively observe). Assuming comp things should be like that: NUMBER === CONSCIOUSNESS MATTER IMHO mind is constructive mathematics, creating meaningful structures from raw experience. That intuition is confirmed by the math of comp + the classical theory of knowledge (Plato, Theaetetus, ...): the third hypostase (Bp p) describe a constructivist intuitionist subject close to Brouwer theory of consciousness. Indeed. Like the logic of matter justifies quantum logic (without assuming anything physical). Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/6/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Bruno Marchal Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-05, 11:13:06 Subject: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory Hi Richard, Stephen, Roger, Dual aspect theories are plausibly incompatible with comp. In that sense Craig is more coherent, but Stephen, and Chalmers, seems not. They avoid the comp necessary reformulation of the mind-body problem. It is still Aristotle theory variants, unaware of the first person indeterminacy. It might be compatible with comp, but then this asks for a non trivial derivation, and some conspiracy of the numbers. Bruno On 05 Oct 2012, at 13:15, Richard Ruquist wrote: Along the theme of a dual-aspect theory of reality, I recommend the book Mind and Cosmos:Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False by Nagel, Thomas. It actually has little to do with Darwin but rather discusses how consciousness, cognition, etc. cannot not be explained by materialism. Richard On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King
Re: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory
Hi Richard Ruquist I appreciate your suggestion, but I am already convinced, and have other sources besides that. What I'm looking for is a book which gives the central mechanism of abiogenesis, the production of living matter from nonliving matter. If indded there is such a thing. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-05, 07:15:41 Subject: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory Along the theme of a dual-aspect theory of reality, I recommend the book Mind and Cosmos:Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False by Nagel, Thomas. It actually has little to do with Darwin but rather discusses how consciousness, cognition, etc. cannot not be explained by materialism. Richard On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Many thanks, Stephan ! I should have known it before, but double-aspect and/or dual-aspect theories of mind aren't afraid of using the word subjectivity. Now all they have to do is find out who or what is the subjectr of subjectivity ! Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-04, 09:14:20 Subject: A nice video discussing the dual aspect theory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ3Z-Y99wW0 -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory
I recommend: Incomplete Nature: How Mind Emerged From Matter by Terrence Deacon, a professor of neuroscience and anthropology at the University of California, Berkeley LN On Fri, 5 Oct 2012 07:33:53 -0400, Roger Clough rclo...@verizon.net wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist I appreciate your suggestion, but I am already convinced, and have other sources besides that. What I'm looking for is a book which gives the central mechanism of abiogenesis, the production of living matter from nonliving matter. If indded there is such a thing. Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-05, 07:15:41 Subject: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory Along the theme of a dual-aspect theory of reality, I recommend the book Mind and Cosmos:Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False by Nagel, Thomas. It actually has little to do with Darwin but rather discusses how consciousness, cognition, etc. cannot not be explained by materialism. Richard On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Many thanks, Stephan ! I should have known it before, but double-aspect and/or dual-aspect theories of mind aren't afraid of using the word subjectivity. Now all they have to do is find out who or what is the subjectr of subjectivity ! Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-04, 09:14:20 Subject: A nice video discussing the dual aspect theory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ3Z-Y99wW0 -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory
On 05 Oct 2012, at 13:33, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist I appreciate your suggestion, but I am already convinced, and have other sources besides that. What I'm looking for is a book which gives the central mechanism of abiogenesis, the production of living matter from nonliving matter. If indded there is such a thing. Mind emerges from numbers (or from the combinators, etc.). Matter emerge from mind. Comp explains completely why it looks the contrary locally. Comp might be false, but as matter emerges from mind in a precise way, comp (I survive through machine substitution at some level) is made refutable. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-05, 07:15:41 Subject: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory Along the theme of a dual-aspect theory of reality, I recommend the book Mind and Cosmos:Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False by Nagel, Thomas. It actually has little to do with Darwin but rather discusses how consciousness, cognition, etc. cannot not be explained by materialism. Richard On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Many thanks, Stephan ! I should have known it before, but double-aspect and/or dual-aspect theories of mind aren't afraid of using the word subjectivity. Now all they have to do is find out who or what is the subjectr of subjectivity ! Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-04, 09:14:20 Subject: A nice video discussing the dual aspect theory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ3Z-Y99wW0 -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything- l...@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com . For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en . http://iridia.ulb.ac.be/~marchal/ -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory
Deacon's 600 page book (http://www.amazon.com/Incomplete-Nature-Mind-Emerged-Matter/dp/0393049914) flushes out the philosophical outlines of Nagel's much shorter book (http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Cosmos-Materialist-Neo-Darwinian-Conception). I found a fairly complete summary of Deacon's book on how life emerges from non-living matter. (Actually Deacon just presents a teleological systems analysis of how that could happen). But regarding a dual-aspect theory, here is a relevant paragraph from that summary (http://www.mdpi.com/2078-2489/3/3/290/htm): The Cartesian dualism that Deacon criticizes is substance dualism, the notion that there are two kinds of substance of which the world is constructed, namely physical substance (res extensa) and mental substance (res cogitans), the latter of which in Descartes systems includes God and soul. Deacon’s system is actually one of property dualism in which there is just one kind of substance but there exist two distinct kinds of properties, physical and biological the latter of which also includes sentience and mind or in Deacon’s terminology physical and ententional. Physical properties are described by thermodynamics and morphodynamics whereas ententional properties are described by teleodynamics, which in turn depend on morphodynamics and thermodynamics. Deacon's one kind of substance is physical substance. But it seems that such a systems approach may be of value no matter (pun) what the substance is or even if there is more than one kind of substance. Deacon presents mechanisms that could be a guide for emergent processes in living systems that could apply to physical matter or even to monads or mind structures from numbers. Richard On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 11:34 AM, Bruno Marchal marc...@ulb.ac.be wrote: On 05 Oct 2012, at 13:33, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist I appreciate your suggestion, but I am already convinced, and have other sources besides that. What I'm looking for is a book which gives the central mechanism of abiogenesis, the production of living matter from nonliving matter. If indded there is such a thing. Mind emerges from numbers (or from the combinators, etc.). Matter emerge from mind. Comp explains completely why it looks the contrary locally. Comp might be false, but as matter emerges from mind in a precise way, comp (I survive through machine substitution at some level) is made refutable. Bruno Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Richard Ruquist Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-05, 07:15:41 Subject: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory Along the theme of a dual-aspect theory of reality, I recommend the book Mind and Cosmos:Why the Materialist Neo-Darwinian Conception of Nature Is Almost Certainly False by Nagel, Thomas. It actually has little to do with Darwin but rather discusses how consciousness, cognition, etc. cannot not be explained by materialism. Richard On Fri, Oct 5, 2012 at 6:02 AM, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Stephen P. King Many thanks, Stephan ! I should have known it before, but double-aspect and/or dual-aspect theories of mind aren't afraid of using the word subjectivity. Now all they have to do is find out who or what is the subjectr of subjectivity ! Roger Clough, rclo...@verizon.net 10/5/2012 Forever is a long time, especially near the end. -Woody Allen - Receiving the following content - From: Stephen P. King Receiver: everything-list Time: 2012-10-04, 09:14:20 Subject: A nice video discussing the dual aspect theory http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oZ3Z-Y99wW0 -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List
Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory
On 10/5/2012 2:22 PM, Richard Ruquist wrote: Deacon's 600 page book (http://www.amazon.com/Incomplete-Nature-Mind-Emerged-Matter/dp/0393049914) flushes out the philosophical outlines of Nagel's much shorter book (http://www.amazon.com/Mind-Cosmos-Materialist-Neo-Darwinian-Conception). I found a fairly complete summary of Deacon's book on how life emerges from non-living matter. (Actually Deacon just presents a teleological systems analysis of how that could happen). But regarding a dual-aspect theory, here is a relevant paragraph from that summary (http://www.mdpi.com/2078-2489/3/3/290/htm): The Cartesian dualism that Deacon criticizes is substance dualism, the notion that there are two kinds of substance of which the world is constructed, namely physical substance (res extensa) and mental substance (res cogitans), the latter of which in Descartes systems includes God and soul. Deacon’s system is actually one of property dualism in which there is just one kind of substance but there exist two distinct kinds of properties, physical and biological the latter of which also includes sentience and mind or in Deacon’s terminology physical and ententional. Physical properties are described by thermodynamics and morphodynamics whereas ententional properties are described by teleodynamics, which in turn depend on morphodynamics and thermodynamics. Deacon's one kind of substance is physical substance. But it seems that such a systems approach may be of value no matter (pun) what the substance is or even if there is more than one kind of substance. Deacon presents mechanisms that could be a guide for emergent processes in living systems that could apply to physical matter or even to monads or mind structures from numbers. Richard Hi Richard, Nice post! I would only add that the emergence must not be a special singular event, it must be an ubiquitous process! -- Onward! Stephen -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory
On Fri, Oct 05, 2012 at 07:33:53AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist I appreciate your suggestion, but I am already convinced, and have other sources besides that. What I'm looking for is a book which gives the central mechanism of abiogenesis, the production of living matter from nonliving matter. If indded there is such a thing. I doubt there would be any one book on this. It is a field of great interest, not only to biologists, but also ALife people, who are approaching the problem from the opposite direction. Usually, there will be a smattering of papers in ALife conferences dealing with the abiogenisis problem. Most of the more recent ALife conference proceedings are available outside of a paywall, so you could browse these to see if any papers take your interest. Cheers -- Prof Russell Standish Phone 0425 253119 (mobile) Principal, High Performance Coders Visiting Professor of Mathematics hpco...@hpcoders.com.au University of New South Wales http://www.hpcoders.com.au -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
Re: Subjectivity is no longer a dirty word! A nice video discussingthe dual aspect theory
On 10/5/2012 5:15 PM, Russell Standish wrote: On Fri, Oct 05, 2012 at 07:33:53AM -0400, Roger Clough wrote: Hi Richard Ruquist I appreciate your suggestion, but I am already convinced, and have other sources besides that. What I'm looking for is a book which gives the central mechanism of abiogenesis, the production of living matter from nonliving matter. If indded there is such a thing. I suppose you've read the basics: Origins of Life by Freeman Dyson, The Origins of Life by John Maynard Smith and Eors Szathmary, Life's Origin ed. by William Schopf. Brent -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups Everything List group. To post to this group, send email to everything-list@googlegroups.com. To unsubscribe from this group, send email to everything-list+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/everything-list?hl=en.
