Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Sat, 2003-09-20 at 06:02, ed tharp wrote: > On Sat, 2003-09-20 at 03:06, James Sparenberg wrote: > > > > > Actually I'm planning on waiting a week.. Why? Well I want to do a > > urpmi based upgrade. Let the mirrors coold down. follow the directions > > and see if I either > > > > 1. Have a working box. > > 2. Have a reason to re-install. > > > > I'm hoping for option 1. > > > > James > And I am hoping you will let us know how it goes before I attempt the > same on the production boxes I control... that I will do. I'll try and put an overview here and then something in the TWiki as well (haha Anne beat you to the punch *grin*) James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Sat, 2003-09-20 at 03:06, James Sparenberg wrote: > > Actually I'm planning on waiting a week.. Why? Well I want to do a > urpmi based upgrade. Let the mirrors coold down. follow the directions > and see if I either > > 1. Have a working box. > 2. Have a reason to re-install. > > I'm hoping for option 1. > > James And I am hoping you will let us know how it goes before I attempt the same on the production boxes I control... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Sat Sep 20, 2003 at 01:23:03AM -0600, Charlie M. wrote:
[...]
> - From what I've seen so far from the boxes I've 'cooked'; and the postings on
> cooker from people regarding their upgrade experiences, it's looking as
> though the urpmi upgrade path will be less trouble than at any previous
> release. Most of what I had to do after the fact was cleanup.
Shouldn't be a problem. I've done two upgrades (one live, one in vmware)
about a month ago and they worked without a hitch. The vmware had some
issues with my gnome desktop, but that could have been because it was
"fresh" (I installed 9.1, booted, logged in as root, changed the media urpmi
was looking for, and did an --auto-select).
The live system was a 9.1 machine with all kinds of stuff on it, upgrade to
cooker (b2-ish, I think) and I'm still working on that machine with no ill
effects.
A urpmi --auto-select pointing to new sources can be a real live update. =)
--
MandrakeSoft Security; http://www.mandrakesecure.net/
Online Security Resource Book; http://linsec.ca/
"lynx -source http://linsec.ca/vdanen.asc | gpg --import"
{FE6F2AFD : 88D8 0D23 8D4B 3407 5BD7 66F9 2043 D0E5 FE6F 2AFD}
pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 20, 2003 01:06 am, James Sparenberg wrote: > > > Since Mandrake is heavily dependant on the community for > > > development, software contributions and patches, testing and bug > > > reports, makin the distro unavailable for d/l till after release > > > would be impossible. Install RC2 now, update to current cooker, and > > > by Monday you'll have 9.2 final. The same is possible by adding > > > cooker sources to 9.1 an updating to current 9.2. Whether the iso's > > > (or bittorrent) are available or not. > > > > As soon as the "Final" call goes out some of us will be volunteering our > > bandwidth through the bit torrent link at the qa wiki page. > > > > I still have a few niggling complaints about 9.2, but nothing I would > > term a show stopper. It's looking good. I've "fresh installed" cooker on > > the 4 9.1 machines I had access to over the past couple of days, also > > just finished a hard drive install and network upgrade on this one. The > > only one I had trouble with was the young fella's NForce 2 equipped > > machine, but that was expected and only needed the nvnet and other NVidia > > drivers installed. > > > > Now if they'd just put the super user mode konsole and super user mode > > file manager back on the list I'd probably be happy. If they also fixed > > the kde address book of course. ;-) > > > > Told you they were small "niggles." > > Actually I'm planning on waiting a week.. Why? Well I want to do a > urpmi based upgrade. Let the mirrors coold down. follow the directions > and see if I either > > 1. Have a working box. > 2. Have a reason to re-install. > > I'm hoping for option 1. > > James Hi James; I hope you get option 1. It's certain to be slightly less stressful waiting a week. There's always that "Mad Rush" to jump on the latest version; and even a week may be less than adequate to clear the backlog. That "some of us" I referred to above is the people with broadband connections that I've gotten commitments from for the torrent. The four I've already cooked in other words. :-) 3 cable including mine, and 2 1.5mbit/768mbit ADSL connections. It may actually help. I hope. - From what I've seen so far from the boxes I've 'cooked'; and the postings on cooker from people regarding their upgrade experiences, it's looking as though the urpmi upgrade path will be less trouble than at any previous release. Most of what I had to do after the fact was cleanup. Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 01:07:50 up 13:47, 1 user, load average: 0.37, 0.30, 0.27 Now is the time for all good men to come to. -- Walt Kelly -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/bABXG11CaRuZZSIRAjNXAJ0ZRfLzRzutRe66NkEHAvcGzXsuLwCgqlRf klvcOtFIqhFePM0QyChlg/Y= =lQ7w -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 12:30, Charlie M. wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > September 19, 2003 12:55 pm, Tom Brinkman wrote: > > On Friday September 19 2003 01:03 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: > > > > Which brings us back again to the question as to whether > > > > downloads should be available as quickly as they are at > > > > present. Idealogically, yes, but in terms of income, maybe not. > > > > > > > > Anne > > > > > > Careful here... I suggested that around the time of 9.1's pending > > > release and got blasted heavily. *grin* > > > > > > James > > > > Since Mandrake is heavily dependant on the community for > > development, software contributions and patches, testing and bug > > reports, makin the distro unavailable for d/l till after release > > would be impossible. Install RC2 now, update to current cooker, and > > by Monday you'll have 9.2 final. The same is possible by adding > > cooker sources to 9.1 an updating to current 9.2. Whether the iso's > > (or bittorrent) are available or not. > > As soon as the "Final" call goes out some of us will be volunteering our > bandwidth through the bit torrent link at the qa wiki page. > > I still have a few niggling complaints about 9.2, but nothing I would term a > show stopper. It's looking good. I've "fresh installed" cooker on the 4 9.1 > machines I had access to over the past couple of days, also just finished a > hard drive install and network upgrade on this one. The only one I had > trouble with was the young fella's NForce 2 equipped machine, but that was > expected and only needed the nvnet and other NVidia drivers installed. > > Now if they'd just put the super user mode konsole and super user mode file > manager back on the list I'd probably be happy. If they also fixed the kde > address book of course. ;-) > > Told you they were small "niggles." > Actually I'm planning on waiting a week.. Why? Well I want to do a urpmi based upgrade. Let the mirrors coold down. follow the directions and see if I either 1. Have a working box. 2. Have a reason to re-install. I'm hoping for option 1. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 06:39, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > ed tharp schrieb am 19 Sep 2003 06:10:19 -0400: > > > Having a contractor who appreciates the GPL as a community (and so > > gives back to the community fairly) is (in my view, anyway) almost as > > important as their ability to get the boxes shipped. > > You know any? > Dealing with such contractors is not easy because most of the time they > are also working for other companies. Take one of our resellers in > Germany for example: They offer 4 different brands of Linux. Which one > would they promote more which one less to their customers? > > But one of the main things at 9.1 was the *unavailability* of boxes. I > stop by at our main IT book store here in Frankfurt, Germany. He has a > vast supply of German and English books on Unix, Linux, the complete > O'Reilly product line, etc. He claims to be able to get every Linux/Unix > related book within short time. > > After he sold the first 20 Mandrake 9.1 PowerPacks he could not get any > more from his wholesaler. He told me that they told him to wait for a > couple of weeks. He refrained because "after a couple of weeks it's not > new anymore and people who'd bought will have downloaded the stuff. They > want it now, not in a couple of weeks." > > I heard from other stores similar tales. This may have been due to the > cash flow problems. > > wobo > I would not call it "cash flow", I would call it capitalization... but it's all the about the same after the wash > > __ > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Friday 19 Sep 2003 7:03 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: > > Which brings us back again to the question as to whether > > downloads should be available as quickly as they are at present. > > Idealogically, yes, but in terms of income, maybe not. > > > > Anne > > Careful here... I suggested that around the time of 9.1's pending > release and got blasted heavily. *grin* > > James I remember that, but I can't remember the arguments. I can't see why it shouldn't be club download only for at least 2 weeks, which would give them breathing space to get the boxed sets done - not enough, perhaps, but it should help. I think I got my boxed set around 3 weeks after downloads were available. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 September 19, 2003 12:55 pm, Tom Brinkman wrote: > On Friday September 19 2003 01:03 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: > > > Which brings us back again to the question as to whether > > > downloads should be available as quickly as they are at > > > present. Idealogically, yes, but in terms of income, maybe not. > > > > > > Anne > > > > Careful here... I suggested that around the time of 9.1's pending > > release and got blasted heavily. *grin* > > > > James > > Since Mandrake is heavily dependant on the community for > development, software contributions and patches, testing and bug > reports, makin the distro unavailable for d/l till after release > would be impossible. Install RC2 now, update to current cooker, and > by Monday you'll have 9.2 final. The same is possible by adding > cooker sources to 9.1 an updating to current 9.2. Whether the iso's > (or bittorrent) are available or not. As soon as the "Final" call goes out some of us will be volunteering our bandwidth through the bit torrent link at the qa wiki page. I still have a few niggling complaints about 9.2, but nothing I would term a show stopper. It's looking good. I've "fresh installed" cooker on the 4 9.1 machines I had access to over the past couple of days, also just finished a hard drive install and network upgrade on this one. The only one I had trouble with was the young fella's NForce 2 equipped machine, but that was expected and only needed the nvnet and other NVidia drivers installed. Now if they'd just put the super user mode konsole and super user mode file manager back on the list I'd probably be happy. If they also fixed the kde address book of course. ;-) Told you they were small "niggles." Charlie - -- Edmonton,AB,Canada User 244963 at http://counter.li.org Cooker on kernel 2.4.22-10mdk 13:19:57 up 1:59, 1 user, load average: 0.21, 0.19, 0.20 I have discovered the art of deceiving diplomats. I tell them the truth and they never believe me. -- Camillo Di Cavour -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.2.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE/a1lCG11CaRuZZSIRAsAEAJ9x9e0dtb4+jumI5U1BtL9C/V69DwCdE9Te OGMthY3mMvQ1uKhjDjwiaXM= =dr3c -END PGP SIGNATURE- Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Friday September 19 2003 01:03 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: > > Which brings us back again to the question as to whether > > downloads should be available as quickly as they are at > > present. Idealogically, yes, but in terms of income, maybe not. > > > > Anne > > Careful here... I suggested that around the time of 9.1's pending > release and got blasted heavily. *grin* > > James Since Mandrake is heavily dependant on the community for development, software contributions and patches, testing and bug reports, makin the distro unavailable for d/l till after release would be impossible. Install RC2 now, update to current cooker, and by Monday you'll have 9.2 final. The same is possible by adding cooker sources to 9.1 an updating to current 9.2. Whether the iso's (or bittorrent) are available or not. -- Tom Brinkman Corpus Christi, Texas Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 05:07, Anne Wilson wrote: > On Friday 19 Sep 2003 11:39 am, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > > > After he sold the first 20 Mandrake 9.1 PowerPacks he could not get > > any more from his wholesaler. He told me that they told him to wait > > for a couple of weeks. He refrained because "after a couple of > > weeks it's not new anymore and people who'd bought will have > > downloaded the stuff. They want it now, not in a couple of weeks." > > > Which brings us back again to the question as to whether downloads > should be available as quickly as they are at present. > Idealogically, yes, but in terms of income, maybe not. > > Anne Careful here... I suggested that around the time of 9.1's pending release and got blasted heavily. *grin* James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Friday 19 Sep 2003 1:07 pm, Anne Wilson wrote: > On Friday 19 Sep 2003 11:39 am, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > After he sold the first 20 Mandrake 9.1 PowerPacks he could not get > > any more from his wholesaler. He told me that they told him to wait > > for a couple of weeks. He refrained because "after a couple of > > weeks it's not new anymore and people who'd bought will have > > downloaded the stuff. They want it now, not in a couple of weeks." > > Which brings us back again to the question as to whether downloads > should be available as quickly as they are at present. > Idealogically, yes, but in terms of income, maybe not. Which would be fine if MandrakeStore was capable of delivering in a timely manner. But from what I've read on these lists it isn't and it doesn't. In a wider view I can see that MDK doesn't want to enter any huge cash-flow situations at the moment, no matter what the projected profit. Added to which, if they can't produce quickly enough for their own orders, what chance have they got supplying Walmart et al? They would have to invest in massively improved production capabilities that their auditors would probe very deeply. There must be an issue of trust between them and the big chains if they have failed to produce the goods once before, which auditors would view as risk. -- Richard Urwin Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Friday 19 Sep 2003 11:39 am, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > After he sold the first 20 Mandrake 9.1 PowerPacks he could not get > any more from his wholesaler. He told me that they told him to wait > for a couple of weeks. He refrained because "after a couple of > weeks it's not new anymore and people who'd bought will have > downloaded the stuff. They want it now, not in a couple of weeks." > Which brings us back again to the question as to whether downloads should be available as quickly as they are at present. Idealogically, yes, but in terms of income, maybe not. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
ed tharp schrieb am 19 Sep 2003 06:10:19 -0400: > Having a contractor who appreciates the GPL as a community (and so > gives back to the community fairly) is (in my view, anyway) almost as > important as their ability to get the boxes shipped. You know any? Dealing with such contractors is not easy because most of the time they are also working for other companies. Take one of our resellers in Germany for example: They offer 4 different brands of Linux. Which one would they promote more which one less to their customers? But one of the main things at 9.1 was the *unavailability* of boxes. I stop by at our main IT book store here in Frankfurt, Germany. He has a vast supply of German and English books on Unix, Linux, the complete O'Reilly product line, etc. He claims to be able to get every Linux/Unix related book within short time. After he sold the first 20 Mandrake 9.1 PowerPacks he could not get any more from his wholesaler. He told me that they told him to wait for a couple of weeks. He refrained because "after a couple of weeks it's not new anymore and people who'd bought will have downloaded the stuff. They want it now, not in a couple of weeks." I heard from other stores similar tales. This may have been due to the cash flow problems. wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 22:23, James Sparenberg wrote: > just some food for thought. ( I spent t much time in logistics > the last 20 years. *sigh*) > I can sure Identify with the last statement there... only I have more like but it occurs to me that logistics/distribution and advertising in the USA is the 2 areas where Mandrake sorely could use additional expertise. I can even understand in the current cash flow, how the concept of investing the capital in pressing and packaging 1 orders would stretch the cash beyond its ability,,, but that is also why I think an individual sub-contractor might be a good thing&trade... Having a contractor who appreciates the GPL as a community (and so gives back to the community fairly) is (in my view, anyway) almost as important as their ability to get the boxes shipped. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Fri, 2003-09-19 at 00:04, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > James Sparenberg schrieb am Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:23:03 -0700: > > [lesson on sales figures] > > Now yes the sales numbers are small (they better be) One Fry's near > > me does 300 RH boxes a month on average (insider knowledge here.) or > > 3600 a year. They aren't the top store either. Times the 20 stores > > they have, that's 72000 boxes a year. So a Walmart would order a lot > > more boxes than 1. > > > > just some food for thought. ( I spent t much time in logistics > > the last 20 years. *sigh*) > > So this would mean, Mandrake stopped this line of sales just because > they could not afford to produce this many boxes. Right? > > wobo Wobo, Now this is the single most reasonable explanation I've heard. Since the normal course of action in Software is to take a PO(Purchase Order) to the bank and get a short term loan to cover the cost of manf. In hardware Companies are willing to do 25 25 50 (25% upfront, 25% When ready to begin shipping,or at a scheduled point, 50% upon reciept of product, due within 90 days.) I guess at this point it's a matter of finding out what the limitations are in terms of production run and where it would be most affective to place the product. Perhaps doing an Amazon. Where MDK becomes a fulfillment house for hundreds (or 10's) of websites around the net that can then sell/promote the product for MDK, with the site getting a "cut" of the action. Sites like pclinuxonline.com come to mind as naturals for this. Best product for this would perhaps be the 7CD w/o book set and the 2 DVD w/o book set. Since it is less expensive to manufacture and package. I'm not sure what the logistics are here (or software needs.)or if it's practical. My only real interest is a selfish one. I want to be able to use urpmi + Mandrake. But I'm tired of handing out free copies. I want to be able to tell people again, "Go buy the CD's and when you get them I'll help you get started." My first copy of MDK came with a mag called Maximum Linux (it was 6.2 or 6.1) and I've been buying in one form or another every one since then. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
John Wilson schrieb am Fri, 19 Sep 2003 01:11:28 -0700: > That would be a natural partnership, and I doubt that even Wolfgang > can find fault with that idea. :-) Of course not! :) Every idea which helps Mandrake sell boxes is a good idea. But wasn't there a bit of polluted air between Walmart and Mandrake following the poor display of pre-installed Mandrake on the pcs they sold? BTW: Ovaltine was a Swiss product (original "Ovomaltine"), produced by Wander AG. Wander AG brought it to USA in Villa Park, 1917. Wander AG still exists in Switzerland as part of ABF (Associated British Food) and they are still producing Ovomaltine. Modern Ovomaltine products: http://www.wander.ch/cgi/de/products/breakfast/ovomaltine/index.asp Villa Park history (see 3rd paragraph about Wander AG): http://www.vphistoricalsociety.com/history.htm So, John, if ever your nostalgic café needs supply of Ovaltine, tell them to call ABF in USA. I was born 1946 so I was raised with American milk powder, Hershey bars and Ovomaltine. :) wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On September 18, 2003 07:23 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: > ... (Less exposure always means decreased > sales. period. Anyone who says otherwise needs to go to work for > Ovaltine.) (note: Ovaltine was the #1 chocolate Milk powder in the US > with about 80% market share at one time. So they decided to stop > advertising, and cut sales staff. product line eventually died.) Agreed..in the Depression it was also sold and marketed as a healthy milk replacement, true in the sense that it was a lot better for you than, say, Nestle Quik or the other imitators that popped up. (Ovaltine did contain real milk powder.) And they were good sales and marketing people too. We still have a depression era cafe known as the Ovaltine Cafe that started up serving a drink that was locally popular here..using Ovaltine intsead of milk in the coffee. The company caught wind of it in 1931 or so and considered suing for trademark infrigment. When the looked at what the cafe was doing and that it was, basically, free promotion they gave the cafe the okay to continue with the name. Until the product line died the continued with the drink and when they> just some food for thought. ( I spent t much time in logistics > the last 20 years. *sigh*) heard the line was dying they bought a warehouse full of it and continue to sell it to the present day. At vastly inflated prices, of course. :-) > > Now yes the sales numbers are small (they better be) One Fry's near > me does 300 RH boxes a month on average (insider knowledge here.) or > 3600 a year. They aren't the top store either. Times the 20 stores > they have, that's 72000 boxes a year. So a Walmart would order a lot > more boxes than 1. > I doubt that system wide Walmart would order anything less. And we need to remember that Walmark sells a computer with MDK preinstalled so I'd suggest to all and sundry that they'd be delighted to be able to flog off a few boxed sets to sell to people who bought that fscked peice of junk called XP. That would be a natural partnership, and I doubt that even Wolfgang can find fault with that idea. :-) ttfn John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
James Sparenberg schrieb am Thu, 18 Sep 2003 19:23:03 -0700: [lesson on sales figures] > Now yes the sales numbers are small (they better be) One Fry's near > me does 300 RH boxes a month on average (insider knowledge here.) or > 3600 a year. They aren't the top store either. Times the 20 stores > they have, that's 72000 boxes a year. So a Walmart would order a lot > more boxes than 1. > > just some food for thought. ( I spent t much time in logistics > the last 20 years. *sigh*) So this would mean, Mandrake stopped this line of sales just because they could not afford to produce this many boxes. Right? wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 15:57, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > ed tharp schrieb am 18 Sep 2003 18:12:32 -0400: > > > On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 07:25, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > > > > > Being presented at exhibitions, distributing boxes overseas (USA, > > > Canada, Australia) is a costly venture which is right now just not > > > paying back. > > > > > Here's the thing, as I see it,,, since the three disks set is GPL, > > really there is only a couple of things needed, 1. some one to press > > the CDs, print the boxes and some instructions (ala cheepbytes) a > > logistics/distribution service, and the contacts able to make the sale > > to to the big three, then some one else to handle "all the other" > > retail in the USA. > > That's what I said with "... is a costly venture ..." > > We are not really talking about the production of the boxes, that's > still done for each version. We are talking about the cost of > distribution via stores. There's too much loss of revenue compared to > purchases at MandrakeStore. I don't know how much a MandrakeStore order > brings more revenue than a sold box from a shelve in Dayton, Ohio, but > there is a remarkable diff. And after software sales went down in > general this diff made the difference between doing and not doing. > > wobo Thank god most companies don't take this attitude... Sorry if I sound less than complimentary here don't mean to. But the cost per box of shipping 1 to a person is higher than shipping 1 to Walmart or a similar organizations Central warehouse. In both case the cost of shipping is born by the recipient not the sender. So it doesn't matter if it's one or ten thousand. The cost per box is identical in shipping but not in handling. Which is born by MDK. The real difference is that at say 40 US dollars a box Mandrake gets 40 dollars. But on a boxed set to Walmart they only get 15 dollars. Then Walmart adds 3 dollars shipping to initial wharehouse. 2 dollars cost for redistribution. 3 dollars cost in receiving handling. 2 dollars more in local handling (the shelf stocker at the store.) Plus 4 dollars in redistribution costs. (sending it out to the individual stores involves re-packing etc.) 1 dollar in inventory control costs, and finally 5 dollars in inventory tax, damaged and nonreturnable product, theft, etc. The end result is about 6 dollars a box clear for Walmart. or 60K pre-tax, profit. Now on the MDK end. Their cost is about 7 dollars per box set for box... CD's artwork, printing, handling, loss, etc. Plus about 1 dollar per box for inventory returns. End result 7 dollars per box set or 70k dollars for every 10k sold. Now in a direct sales situation the cost per box set does , as well as the total volume does a nosedive. (Less exposure always means decreased sales. period. Anyone who says otherwise needs to go to work for Ovaltine.) (note: Ovaltine was the #1 chocolate Milk powder in the US with about 80% market share at one time. So they decided to stop advertising, and cut sales staff. product line eventually died.) So they would sell say only 1 thousand boxes. Ok with the increased costs (lots of individual orders mean more people etc to handle it.) so costs there are probably closer to 15 to 20 dollars a box. Let's drop that down to 15 and note that it leaves 25 dollars per box clear. or 25k profit or another way to look is that they lost 45k over what they could have had. Now yes the sales numbers are small (they better be) One Fry's near me does 300 RH boxes a month on average (insider knowledge here.) or 3600 a year. They aren't the top store either. Times the 20 stores they have, that's 72000 boxes a year. So a Walmart would order a lot more boxes than 1. just some food for thought. ( I spent t much time in logistics the last 20 years. *sigh*) Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
ed tharp schrieb am 18 Sep 2003 18:12:32 -0400: > On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 07:25, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > > > Being presented at exhibitions, distributing boxes overseas (USA, > > Canada, Australia) is a costly venture which is right now just not > > paying back. > > > Here's the thing, as I see it,,, since the three disks set is GPL, > really there is only a couple of things needed, 1. some one to press > the CDs, print the boxes and some instructions (ala cheepbytes) a > logistics/distribution service, and the contacts able to make the sale > to to the big three, then some one else to handle "all the other" > retail in the USA. That's what I said with "... is a costly venture ..." We are not really talking about the production of the boxes, that's still done for each version. We are talking about the cost of distribution via stores. There's too much loss of revenue compared to purchases at MandrakeStore. I don't know how much a MandrakeStore order brings more revenue than a sold box from a shelve in Dayton, Ohio, but there is a remarkable diff. And after software sales went down in general this diff made the difference between doing and not doing. wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 07:25, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > James Sparenberg schrieb am Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:12:28 -0700: > > > One thing MDK has never been good > > at is tooting their own horn. I'm tired of seeing red hats and > > Lethargic Lizards at Linux world etc. We need more Top Hats *grin*. > > Although I agree to this in full I have to point out that we don't live > in an ideal world. Sorry about that. > > Tooting your horn involves money upfront. If you want to see how > Mandrake is able to toot their horn have a look at pictures of LinuxTag > 2000 in Germany (one of the biggest European Linux events): > > http://www.wolf-b.de/linuxtag/linuxtag.html > > That was during the time when there was money to throw around. Now > Mandrake is at a very tight budget, for once to make it out of Chaper 11 > at the end of this year. > > Being presented at exhibitions, distributing boxes overseas (USA, > Canada, Australia) is a costly venture which is right now just not > paying back. > > This may change, of course (hopefully). > > wobo, during one of his rare moments of reality awareness > Here's the thing, as I see it,,, since the three disks set is GPL, really there is only a couple of things needed, 1. some one to press the CDs, print the boxes and some instructions (ala cheepbytes) a logistics/distribution service, and the contacts able to make the sale to to the big three, then some one else to handle "all the other" retail in the USA. well that's about all I will say about this in an open forum.. L8R Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Thu, 2003-09-18 at 04:25, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > James Sparenberg schrieb am Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:12:28 -0700: > > > One thing MDK has never been good > > at is tooting their own horn. I'm tired of seeing red hats and > > Lethargic Lizards at Linux world etc. We need more Top Hats *grin*. > > Although I agree to this in full I have to point out that we don't live > in an ideal world. Sorry about that. > > Tooting your horn involves money upfront. If you want to see how > Mandrake is able to toot their horn have a look at pictures of LinuxTag > 2000 in Germany (one of the biggest European Linux events): > > http://www.wolf-b.de/linuxtag/linuxtag.html > > That was during the time when there was money to throw around. Now > Mandrake is at a very tight budget, for once to make it out of Chaper 11 > at the end of this year. > > Being presented at exhibitions, distributing boxes overseas (USA, > Canada, Australia) is a costly venture which is right now just not > paying back. > > This may change, of course (hopefully). > > wobo, during one of his rare moments of reality awareness heck any more I'd say that having a presence at one of the US shows (Linuxworld or Comdex) would be counter productive rather than productive. It's not a software show anymore. But rather a hardware show. Now the horn tooting would come in the form of free press. Press Releases. Letters to users on websites. (Newsforge, pclinuxonline, etc) The most important ones being submission of articles by those in the know on things like URPMI and how it can be used to maintain a network. HowTo articles that put MDK in the forfront. (Even on non MDK specific articles, just saying "on my MDK box I did" or "This is how it's done on a MDK box." Screenshots of a mandrake desktop that kind of thing. James > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Wednesday 17 September 2003 09:21, Anne Wilson wrote: > Finally, I would like to remind users that this is not a closed > 'club'. We welcome material from any user, particularly if they are > able to add to the hardware compatibility pages, or able to write a > mini HOW-TO on any of the frequently encountered installation > problems. > > Anne Wilson My October copy of LXF arrived by mail today (a bit late) so now I understand what you're reacting on. You had me scouring old copies if I'd missed something:o) Time flies. Good for you! Good luck, HarM -- Mandrake HowTo's & more: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
James Sparenberg schrieb am Thu, 18 Sep 2003 01:12:28 -0700: > One thing MDK has never been good > at is tooting their own horn. I'm tired of seeing red hats and > Lethargic Lizards at Linux world etc. We need more Top Hats *grin*. Although I agree to this in full I have to point out that we don't live in an ideal world. Sorry about that. Tooting your horn involves money upfront. If you want to see how Mandrake is able to toot their horn have a look at pictures of LinuxTag 2000 in Germany (one of the biggest European Linux events): http://www.wolf-b.de/linuxtag/linuxtag.html That was during the time when there was money to throw around. Now Mandrake is at a very tight budget, for once to make it out of Chaper 11 at the end of this year. Being presented at exhibitions, distributing boxes overseas (USA, Canada, Australia) is a costly venture which is right now just not paying back. This may change, of course (hopefully). wobo, during one of his rare moments of reality awareness Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Wed, 2003-09-17 at 11:34, John Wilson wrote: > On September 17, 2003 10:24 am, James Sparenberg wrote: > >Compusa > > now has a Linux "aisle" dominated by RH and SuSE box sets Fry's has put > > RH both in the aisle and on an endcap (which by the way was the way they > > sold MDK up through 7.2) The key seems to be the 3 disk sets as far as > > a sales leader goes. Why? Getting people to do an impulse buy of a 30 > > dollar (roughly) set is a lot easier than the 100 dollar version. But > > still the problem in the US is that when you mention open source people > > thing Red Hat (and as a FreeBSD user this is a real sore spot, FreeBSD > > isn't Linux. *grin*) Doing things like LinuxWorld or Comdex in the US > > isn't that important for a distro. But visibility in the market place > > is. > > > > I tend to agree, James. But remember that this doesn't just apply to the US. > It also applies to Canada where Linux isn't involved in quite the same the > same M$hite vs the world arguments. I only spoke for the US because I'm a US Citizen and don't feel justified in speaking for all North Americans. But even though they have broadband a number of my Canadian friends as well have stated that when they want it they want it now. Not 6 hours and 12 coasters later. Not 6 weeeks from now (or even a week from now.) via UPS or Parcel Post. It's the impatience of State Siders. To quote Homer Simpson. "3 seconds!...ohhh, but I want it now!." Frankly the quality of a commercial CD is better than a home burned one if for no other reason than QA is there. (and they use better disks than I do.. I go for the 100 cds for >14.99 deals.) > > Visibilty is key to any of this. And that does mean visibility in places like > Future Shop, University bookstores and the like. Amen > > I know a retailer who follows the "most popular" distro polls and is > frustrated as all get out that he can't get Mandrake on the shelves. Same here. > > It all comes down to a chicken and egg argument. People who try Linux will > opt for RedHat or SuSE because it's on the shelves. Mandrake barely even > comes into it until some poor soul who bought RedHat suddenly realizes what a > pain in the ass it is to configure. Then they either give up or they'll > listen and download the ISO and try Mandrake. SuSE users don't have quite > the same problems getting going but they have their problems too. > > Meanwhile, I don't think this will get resolved here, sadly. But perhaps > Mandrake is listening. :-) > > ttfn > > John I get the feeling they are starting too. (listen that is) Seems that the thread I started on adds here and the extreme (but intelligent) soapboxing admw was doing over in cooker has made MDK rethink a bit on how they are going to do the "addware" version. Or at least how they will present it to the community. One thing MDK has never been good at is tooting their own horn. I'm tired of seeing red hats and Lethargic Lizards at Linux world etc. We need more Top Hats *grin*. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Wednesday 17 September 2003 20:34, John Wilson wrote: > It all comes down to a chicken and egg argument. People who try Linux will > opt for RedHat or SuSE because it's on the shelves. Mandrake barely even > comes into it until some poor soul who bought RedHat suddenly realizes what > a pain in the ass it is to configure. Then they either give up or they'll > listen and download the ISO and try Mandrake. SuSE users don't have quite > the same problems getting going but they have their problems too. > > Meanwhile, I don't think this will get resolved here, sadly. But perhaps > Mandrake is listening. :-) > > ttfn > > John Well as you state it, people getting interested go into shops and buy.they don't buy Mandrake they buy Linux in general and RH and SuSe are there for the picking. Personally I think that distro's that come along with mags including a little handholding through an article is a more obvious way of starting. That's not on discussion here now, though. Linux should be in the shops on offer like any proper OS, in nice enticing boxes too and if RH and SuSE are willing to take the losses to do just that.fine by me and good for them!:o) It's all just a matter of adding and substracting costs, revenues and profits. Good luck, HarM -- Mandrake HowTo's & more: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On September 17, 2003 10:24 am, James Sparenberg wrote: >Compusa > now has a Linux "aisle" dominated by RH and SuSE box sets Fry's has put > RH both in the aisle and on an endcap (which by the way was the way they > sold MDK up through 7.2) The key seems to be the 3 disk sets as far as > a sales leader goes. Why? Getting people to do an impulse buy of a 30 > dollar (roughly) set is a lot easier than the 100 dollar version. But > still the problem in the US is that when you mention open source people > thing Red Hat (and as a FreeBSD user this is a real sore spot, FreeBSD > isn't Linux. *grin*) Doing things like LinuxWorld or Comdex in the US > isn't that important for a distro. But visibility in the market place > is. > I tend to agree, James. But remember that this doesn't just apply to the US. It also applies to Canada where Linux isn't involved in quite the same the same M$hite vs the world arguments. Visibilty is key to any of this. And that does mean visibility in places like Future Shop, University bookstores and the like. I know a retailer who follows the "most popular" distro polls and is frustrated as all get out that he can't get Mandrake on the shelves. It all comes down to a chicken and egg argument. People who try Linux will opt for RedHat or SuSE because it's on the shelves. Mandrake barely even comes into it until some poor soul who bought RedHat suddenly realizes what a pain in the ass it is to configure. Then they either give up or they'll listen and download the ISO and try Mandrake. SuSE users don't have quite the same problems getting going but they have their problems too. Meanwhile, I don't think this will get resolved here, sadly. But perhaps Mandrake is listening. :-) ttfn John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
>Whereas you could well be right. You wouldn't know it here. Compusa > now has a Linux "aisle" dominated by RH and SuSE box sets Fry's has put > RH both in the aisle and on an endcap (which by the way was the way they > sold MDK up through 7.2) The key seems to be the 3 disk sets as far as > a sales leader goes. Why? Getting people to do an impulse buy of a 30 > dollar (roughly) set is a lot easier than the 100 dollar version. But > still the problem in the US is that when you mention open source people > thing Red Hat (and as a FreeBSD user this is a real sore spot, FreeBSD > isn't Linux. *grin*) Doing things like LinuxWorld or Comdex in the US > isn't that important for a distro. But visibility in the market place > is. I'm in CompUSA quite often, and after reading this thread, I was thinking of ways that would make it easier for someone to buy Mandrake. How about instead of putting CD media in boxes, a voucher is sold to the person instead? When the buyer calls in the voucher information (or does it by the web, or rings it up at the counter) then the current distribution will be shipped to a provided address. This would allow a presence on the store shelves without the hassle of printing the packages and CDs. Is there a paid, priority download option available yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Wed, 2003-09-17 at 06:00, H.J.Bathoorn wrote: > On Wednesday 17 September 2003 14:18, ed tharp wrote: > > yes,,, but it still seems to me a gold mine for some entrepreneur who > > can put it together to be a "hands off distribution contractor" where > > the distribution and printing of the product are taken off MDKsofts > > hands, and done by someone with as much expertise in CD and booklet > > distribution and logistics as MDKsoft has at creating a great OS and > > Distribution. > > I > > I doubt that! > IIRC Red Hat too has stopped giving priority to boxed sets in the shops. > The reason is it takes quite a bit of time to print cd's, boxes and manuals > after which the physical distribution takes time too. > By the time the boxed sets hit the shops they're already outdated. > Nobody in their right mind would invest in that.the only profit as stated > is "visibility" which can be gotten a lot cheaper and more effective IMHO. > > Good luck, > HarM Harm, Whereas you could well be right. You wouldn't know it here. Compusa now has a Linux "aisle" dominated by RH and SuSE box sets Fry's has put RH both in the aisle and on an endcap (which by the way was the way they sold MDK up through 7.2) The key seems to be the 3 disk sets as far as a sales leader goes. Why? Getting people to do an impulse buy of a 30 dollar (roughly) set is a lot easier than the 100 dollar version. But still the problem in the US is that when you mention open source people thing Red Hat (and as a FreeBSD user this is a real sore spot, FreeBSD isn't Linux. *grin*) Doing things like LinuxWorld or Comdex in the US isn't that important for a distro. But visibility in the market place is. James Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Wednesday 17 September 2003 14:18, ed tharp wrote: > yes,,, but it still seems to me a gold mine for some entrepreneur who > can put it together to be a "hands off distribution contractor" where > the distribution and printing of the product are taken off MDKsofts > hands, and done by someone with as much expertise in CD and booklet > distribution and logistics as MDKsoft has at creating a great OS and > Distribution. > I I doubt that! IIRC Red Hat too has stopped giving priority to boxed sets in the shops. The reason is it takes quite a bit of time to print cd's, boxes and manuals after which the physical distribution takes time too. By the time the boxed sets hit the shops they're already outdated. Nobody in their right mind would invest in that.the only profit as stated is "visibility" which can be gotten a lot cheaper and more effective IMHO. Good luck, HarM -- Mandrake HowTo's & more: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Wed, 2003-09-17 at 08:01, ed tharp wrote: > On Wed, 2003-09-17 at 07:28, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > James Sparenberg schrieb am Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:29:32 -0700: > > > > > > > > For Mandrake it is no change. Production and distribution of boxes is a > > very cost consuming thing which is not very becoming to a company with a > > tight budget. So Mandrake is IMHO just doing what they had to do. > > > > wobo > > yes,,, but it still seems to me a gold mine for some entrepreneur who can put it together to be a "hands off distribution contractor" where the distribution and printing of the product are taken off MDKsofts hands, and done by someone with as much expertise in CD and booklet distribution and logistics as MDKsoft has at creating a great OS and Distribution. I would even argue that was the idea behind having McMillian as a 'partner', I also argue it was a correct idea, but may not have been implemented correctly. MDKsoft must seem like the smallest potato in the patch to an outfit like McMillian, where (if it is possible) a smaller distributor/publisher or instead of a combined distributor/publisher, individual distributor & publisher might be able to offer the attention to quality that MDKsoft's product deserves. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Wed, 2003-09-17 at 07:28, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > James Sparenberg schrieb am Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:29:32 -0700: > > > > Are people downloading to save money, or, are they downloading just to > > get the product. No I don't have all the data, Gael has more. But, > > the 20% drop in sales is consistent with the drop other software > > vendors and retailers are seeing across the board. My next question > > is. Why aren't SuSE, Red Hat, Walnut Creek (FreeBSD) Wasabi (NetBSD) > > and others cutting back on retail? They sell to the same demographic. > > Shouldn't they have similar problems? > > Who says, they don't? But they have had (still have) other distribution > strategies and means than Mandrake from the start. > Mandrake always offered the download edition before the boxed sets. > All others (I don't know about BSD, so I leave those out) always had the > boxed sets in the shops first. So their strategy is mainly based on > selling boxes. Mandrake's business model is based on the "Street > Performer" model. Now I don't want to go into a discussion of this! > > As said before, all other ditributors also suffer from the 20% drop in > sales. But they can't re-organize their strategy so fast because > customers are used to find boxes on shelves and wouldn't change habits > that fast. I might offer this is one of the culture differences between Europeans and Americans. American customers change habits as fast as they drive, and in fact, it is generally agreed that American consumers will change purchasing habits even if greatly satisfied, just to see if there is a better product or service. It is FAR more important for visual name recognition, than for past quality performance as far as increasing sales. This is _the_ 'other' spot I see MDKsoft stumbling. I still do not think Apple would have survived until Steve Jobbs returned had there not been thousands of cars driving around with the apple logo on the back reminding folks there was some other computer besides wintel. I still think that just as shelve space means the very bottom line as far as eyes seeing the product exists (and to _very_ many Americans, if you don't see it on the shelf it must not exist any longer) the next most important is other forms of 'eye time'. If MDK could take advantage of just 3 outlets (Wal-Mart, Best Buy, and Compusa) that have their own distribution channels, I firmly believe that the quality of the product would do the rest. BTW, since this thread started I have ordered a "vainity plate" lic plate of MDKlinux. I have not been approved yet so I am not sure they will issue it,,, and it will be replacing '2 goo fee'... but if 1 person thinks about Mandrake when they see MDK, it will be worth the 28 bucks... to me anyway... > > For Mandrake it is no change. Production and distribution of boxes is a > very cost consuming thing which is not very becoming to a company with a > tight budget. So Mandrake is IMHO just doing what they had to do. > > wobo > > > __ > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
James Sparenberg schrieb am Tue, 16 Sep 2003 21:29:32 -0700: > > Are people downloading to save money, or, are they downloading just to > get the product. No I don't have all the data, Gael has more. But, > the 20% drop in sales is consistent with the drop other software > vendors and retailers are seeing across the board. My next question > is. Why aren't SuSE, Red Hat, Walnut Creek (FreeBSD) Wasabi (NetBSD) > and others cutting back on retail? They sell to the same demographic. > Shouldn't they have similar problems? Who says, they don't? But they have had (still have) other distribution strategies and means than Mandrake from the start. Mandrake always offered the download edition before the boxed sets. All others (I don't know about BSD, so I leave those out) always had the boxed sets in the shops first. So their strategy is mainly based on selling boxes. Mandrake's business model is based on the "Street Performer" model. Now I don't want to go into a discussion of this! As said before, all other ditributors also suffer from the 20% drop in sales. But they can't re-organize their strategy so fast because customers are used to find boxes on shelves and wouldn't change habits that fast. For Mandrake it is no change. Production and distribution of boxes is a very cost consuming thing which is not very becoming to a company with a tight budget. So Mandrake is IMHO just doing what they had to do. wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 02:29 pm, many eyes noted that James Sparenberg wrote: > > Anyway, if we feel that the retail market would start to grow up again, > > we would certainly consider to address it again. We're also aware that > > being on shelves is good for mindshare. > > > > Regards, > > > > Gaël. > > > > > > I can see his point. > > > > wobo > > Wobo, > >It sounds good except for one thing. In the developed world the US has > less than half the broadband penetration of any other country. (Canada has > about a 50% penetration, Korea 80% the US only 20%) Did the sales fall off > because people downloaded, (Gael's contention.) or did it start falling off > because it took 3 months after release to get it in the stores.(my > observation) With 8.1 and 8.2 by the time I got my copy via retail (Both > came out of a bookstore where I could special order and pay by check.) I > had downloaded the first beta of the next release. 9.0 I managed to > recieve after it was ordered at full price just as MDK started to offer it > at a clearance price. (From MDK it took 9 weeks.) 9.1 I canceled after 3 > months. I don't want to use the download version. I want to use the > commercial CD's I've got them all the way back to 7.0 (lost my 6.2 and 6.1 > versions.) > > Are people downloading to save money, or, are they downloading just to get > the product. No I don't have all the data, Gael has more. But, the 20% > drop in sales is consistent with the drop other software vendors and > retailers are seeing across the board. My next question is. Why aren't > SuSE, Red Hat, Walnut Creek (FreeBSD) Wasabi (NetBSD) and others cutting > back on retail? They sell to the same demographic. Shouldn't they have > similar problems? > > James > > PS thanks for forwarding the thread to him... > I see this point and unfortunately there is a complaint in a Mag here in Oz [Australia] that mentions a problem with getting the 9.1 box set. It is under a heading, Mandrache and is not good. I won't go into the gory detail, but it mentions a user who bought the boxed set from Mandrake because of the money shortage they were experiencing even though the exchange rate was bad, and he could have saved money by buying it from an OZ company. But after several attempts to get it, and we are talking weeks crawling into months and Mandrake saying it must have got lost in the mail. They are sending him a newer version. This after the mag contacted the Mandrake Linux press office in France. These things happen, but the damage they do when brought out like this is any body's guess and deserves no speculation because everyone could be right. But there is a good point to be made for the tyranny of distance. We are dealing in an almost instant environment, however getting a boxed set takes forever through snail mail. I have a friend who also waited an inordinate amount of time for his boxed set. I am talking over two months and it wasn't lost in the mail, but went through a distributor. Too long. We have a very popular car here in Oz and the reason it is popular is because parts are easily obtained. In every milk bar they say. I think this would apply to meaning in every corner shop which are open 24/7, for other countries. There is a way that this could be done, but it would mean that all who are more or less sold on the system have at least on boxed set sent to them immediately on release and a network world wide with people who have them be set up and placed on the Internet. So that if you want one quickly, it can be sent from the nearest point. Even delivered to the door in some cases. That would be as magic as the wizard itself. I'm up for it. There could be a place where the down loader can put in a zip code, or in Oz a postcode where they are, and a message tells them that if they don't want to download, a copy of a boxed set for X amount of dollars is just round the corner or half a mile down the road. Not practical of course, and because they said it couldn't be done, is all the more reason to try it. But I have been labeled as crazy in the past. Charlie. -- Though we've been dwelling together, I don't know his name: Going along accepting the flow, Just being thus, Even the eminent sages since antiquity Don't know him. How could the hasty ordinary type Presume to understand? - Shitou This email is guaranteed to be wholly Linux Mandrake 9.1, Kmail v1.5 and OpenOffice.org1Beta Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Wed, 17 Sep 2003 07:02 am, many eyes noted that Anne Wilson wrote: > On Tuesday 16 Sep 2003 9:33 pm, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > Anyway, if we feel that the retail market would start to grow up > > again, we would certainly consider to address it again. We're also > > aware that being on shelves is good for mindshare. > > > > Regards, > > > > Gaël. > > > > > > I can see his point. > > Fair enough. So the best we can do is to keep pushing the name in any > way we can to improve visibility. Write to our favourite mags, > regularly, quoting Mandrake as often as possible. Promote amongs > friends, acquaintances and business associates whenever it may get a > fair hearing. At least we know now what we can and can't do. > > Anne About two months ago I made another concerted push for Open Source Software to be used more extensively throughout State, Federal and Local government. I am using Mandrake of course and have the couple of lines previously posted on the bottom of the first page of "all" correspondence, private or otherwise. Though I was extolling the virtues of Open Source Software, not any distribution in particular. The letter that I received back from the state Premiers office was headed [and I just checked it to be certain] Linux Mandrake Software Computer Program in bold and capitals, and the letter beneath. I did mention to my partner that this kind of exposure works. In this way even if no one knows what Mandrake and Linux is because the correspondence does not actually apply to the letters contents, their ears will prick up whenever it is mentioned again. Other write and ask "what the hell is Linux Mandrake." That is the very best response you can get. Someone who shows interest. Charlie. -- Though we've been dwelling together, I don't know his name: Going along accepting the flow, Just being thus, Even the eminent sages since antiquity Don't know him. How could the hasty ordinary type Presume to understand? - Shitou This email is guaranteed to be wholly Linux Mandrake 9.1, Kmail v1.5 and OpenOffice.org1Beta Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Tuesday 16 Sep 2003 10:40 pm, H.J.Bathoorn wrote: > On Tuesday 16 September 2003 23:02, Anne Wilson wrote: > > Write to our favourite mags, > > regularly, quoting Mandrake as often as possible. > > Not a bad idea (I'm a LXF subscriber too), could be worth our while > to make our preferences known. I bet there's quite a few of us > here. > Here's what I sent yesterday: As a 24/7 Mandrake user, I read with interest Jono Bacon's comments on contributing to open source projects. I would like to comment on some of the ways in which we, the users, are making our contribution. Jono did, of course, mention Mandrake Club. Many would agree with him that the need to request money in this way is unfortunate. However, it is worth noting that MandrakeSoft have always believed that their full distro should be absolutely free in cash terms as well as in open source terms. Boxed sets are of course available, but every bit of the distro can be downloaded as soon as it is released. For a small company to maintain such high standards revenue has to be obtained from elsewhere. Voluntary contributions are a legitimate source of income, and many of us support it in this way because we believe that Mandrake could not afford to continue such largesse unless we do give monetary support. That apart, there are many other ways of supporting. Documentation is often woefully inadequate, not least due to the fact that the hardware situation changes daily. The only way that this can be addressed is by users contributing time and effort. Mandrake did attempt to start a hardware compatibility list, but found the task impossible. What was achieved remains available, as mentioned in your reply to T.W. Groves (Mailserver, Oct'03). There is however, an incomplete but much more up-to-date list growing on the users' TWiki site (yes, Jono, we have already started to address this). The TWiki pages were begun around 6 months ago, growing slowly at first, but recently the growth has been fast, so that we have reached the situation where the location of the information is not always self-evident. We are, therefore, in the middle of reorganising the index to address this. The original url of the TWiki web was difficult to remember, so one member has donated a domain to redirect you to the introductory page. Anyone who uses Mandrake, or is interested in doing so in the future, would benefit from browsing our web. http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Finally, I would like to remind users that this is not a closed 'club'. We welcome material from any user, particularly if they are able to add to the hardware compatibility pages, or able to write a mini HOW-TO on any of the frequently encountered installation problems. Anne Wilson -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 23:33, John Wilson wrote: > On September 16, 2003 09:29 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: > > >It sounds good except for one thing. In the developed world the US has > > less than half the broadband penetration of any other country. (Canada has > > about a 50% penetration, Korea 80% the US only 20%) > > Actually Canada is now up to about 70%. Dial up is mainly a disaster recovery > tool now. The figure in the major centres (Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal) > is something like 85%. Most of the sales battles on high speed now are on > price and reliablity, ADSL vs Cable, etc, etc, etc. Oh, and undocumented > speed increases :-) I was being conservative for Canada and generous for the US. Oh and I heard an add today for a DSL broadband provider. The disclaimer was "Speed increases over dialup are for download only and may not differ from dialup speeds on upload". (or words to that affect.) Shees with attitudes like that it's no wonder broadband service penetration is actually going down in the US. James > > > Did the sales fall off > > because people downloaded, (Gael's contention.) or did it start falling off > > because it took 3 months after release to get it in the stores.(my > > observation) > > It's funny cause 7.2 and 8.0 were very rapid to the shelves in Canada. After > than it slowed to a crawl. I'd say that your observation may have as much to > do with is as the download situation. > > > > > Are people downloading to save money, or, are they downloading just to get > > the product. No I don't have all the data, Gael has more. But, the 20% > > drop in sales is consistent with the drop other software vendors and > > retailers are seeing across the board. My next question is. Why aren't > > SuSE, Red Hat, Walnut Creek (FreeBSD) Wasabi (NetBSD) and others cutting > > back on retail? They sell to the same demographic. Shouldn't they have > > similar problems? > > I'm sure they are. They do seem willing to package for the store shelves to > maintain a high level of public visibility which is important if you want to > get your name into people's heads. > > Heck, I even saw the last edition of Caldera/SCO Open Linux (now there's a > joke and a half) on the shelves at a computer store! > > There could be one additional contention here on Geal's part, unspoken. That > is that people download a package and then share it around. That too could > cause the number of packaged boxes to go down even where the high speed > situation is a mess like in the US. > > ttfn > > John > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On September 16, 2003 09:29 pm, James Sparenberg wrote: >It sounds good except for one thing. In the developed world the US has > less than half the broadband penetration of any other country. (Canada has > about a 50% penetration, Korea 80% the US only 20%) Actually Canada is now up to about 70%. Dial up is mainly a disaster recovery tool now. The figure in the major centres (Toronto, Vancouver and Montreal) is something like 85%. Most of the sales battles on high speed now are on price and reliablity, ADSL vs Cable, etc, etc, etc. Oh, and undocumented speed increases :-) > Did the sales fall off > because people downloaded, (Gael's contention.) or did it start falling off > because it took 3 months after release to get it in the stores.(my > observation) It's funny cause 7.2 and 8.0 were very rapid to the shelves in Canada. After than it slowed to a crawl. I'd say that your observation may have as much to do with is as the download situation. > > Are people downloading to save money, or, are they downloading just to get > the product. No I don't have all the data, Gael has more. But, the 20% > drop in sales is consistent with the drop other software vendors and > retailers are seeing across the board. My next question is. Why aren't > SuSE, Red Hat, Walnut Creek (FreeBSD) Wasabi (NetBSD) and others cutting > back on retail? They sell to the same demographic. Shouldn't they have > similar problems? I'm sure they are. They do seem willing to package for the store shelves to maintain a high level of public visibility which is important if you want to get your name into people's heads. Heck, I even saw the last edition of Caldera/SCO Open Linux (now there's a joke and a half) on the shelves at a computer store! There could be one additional contention here on Geal's part, unspoken. That is that people download a package and then share it around. That too could cause the number of packaged boxes to go down even where the high speed situation is a mess like in the US. ttfn John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 13:33, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > John Wilson schrieb am Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:41:03 -0700: > > > My assumption is that either the entry into bankruptcy protection > > messed up their distrubtion channels and McMillian pulled back or that > > someone just dropped the ball in North America. > > Sorry to say, but: no. > I took the freedom to forward Anne Wilson's first message in this > thread, starting with: > > > I have moved to a new thread, in the hope that someone at > > MandrakeSoft, or at least, someone in touch with MandrakeSoft, might > > see it. > > I forwarded it to Gaël Duval, co-founder of MandrakeSoft, creator of > Mandrake Linux, responsible for communications. I hope this is > "MandrakeSoft" enough for you. > > Here's what he answered: > > > In short: > > The overall Linux retail market (all distributions) in the USA has > decreased by around 20% by year since year 2000. One of the reasons for > this decline is that most users now have access to a high-bandwitdh > access, so they prefer to download the ISOs. As a result we started to > lose money on the US retail, so we agreed to stop it with our US > distributor. > > At the same time, online services and MandrakeStore revenues are > exploding, so it's certainly a better business model than pushing just > one or two products in shelves. For instance, we sell maybe a dozen > MandrakeSoft products on Store, it would be impossible to do in the > retail. And we're thinking about selling "dematerialized products" for > download (all pack ISOs for instance), which is really a more powerful > business model. > > Anyway, if we feel that the retail market would start to grow up again, > we would certainly consider to address it again. We're also aware that > being on shelves is good for mindshare. > > Regards, > > Gaël. > > > I can see his point. > > wobo Wobo, It sounds good except for one thing. In the developed world the US has less than half the broadband penetration of any other country. (Canada has about a 50% penetration, Korea 80% the US only 20%) Did the sales fall off because people downloaded, (Gael's contention.) or did it start falling off because it took 3 months after release to get it in the stores.(my observation) With 8.1 and 8.2 by the time I got my copy via retail (Both came out of a bookstore where I could special order and pay by check.) I had downloaded the first beta of the next release. 9.0 I managed to recieve after it was ordered at full price just as MDK started to offer it at a clearance price. (From MDK it took 9 weeks.) 9.1 I canceled after 3 months. I don't want to use the download version. I want to use the commercial CD's I've got them all the way back to 7.0 (lost my 6.2 and 6.1 versions.) Are people downloading to save money, or, are they downloading just to get the product. No I don't have all the data, Gael has more. But, the 20% drop in sales is consistent with the drop other software vendors and retailers are seeing across the board. My next question is. Why aren't SuSE, Red Hat, Walnut Creek (FreeBSD) Wasabi (NetBSD) and others cutting back on retail? They sell to the same demographic. Shouldn't they have similar problems? James PS thanks for forwarding the thread to him... Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 03:04, Eric Fernandez wrote: > ed tharp wrote: > > > > >When you look, see if the box has any mention of McMillian Publishing. > >THese are the same company that puts out "Que" books, and at one time > >was the USA (possibly IIRC for the English language Areas version) > >distributor for MDK, and may still be. > > > > > The boxes I saw in Canterbury were the Mandrake ones, the same than > those you can find in France (but in English, of course). > > Eric Looks like Amazon can get it. http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-handle-form/002-2198298-0539223 course I won't buy from them... NEXT! James > > > > __ > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 01:33, T. Ribbrock wrote: > On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 09:08:49AM +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: > > I really would like to see some authorative statement as to why > > Mandrake has this visibility problem. Linux has little shelf-space > > in the UK, but I have *never* seen a Mandrake box. > > Admittedly, I've been wondering about this as well. In the > Netherlands, *if* I see a distro in the shops, it's SuSE or Red Hat > and that's it. > > Cheerio, > > Thomas Now you all understand why I've been jumping up and down on this bandwagon since before Civilme left this list. I haven't seen a shelf copy of MDK since 8.0 and then barely. But, with 7.2 the Fry's near me sold hundreds of boxes. According to a friend of mine over there (names hidden to protect him.) as far as he knew they wanted 8.0 but danged if they could get it in time.. James -- Beauty is in the eye of the beer holder. Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 16:33, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > John Wilson schrieb am Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:41:03 -0700: > > > My assumption is that either the entry into bankruptcy protection > > messed up their distrubtion channels and McMillian pulled back or that > > someone just dropped the ball in North America. > > Sorry to say, but: no. > I took the freedom to forward Anne Wilson's first message in this > thread, starting with: > > > I have moved to a new thread, in the hope that someone at > > MandrakeSoft, or at least, someone in touch with MandrakeSoft, might > > see it. > > I forwarded it to Gaël Duval, co-founder of MandrakeSoft, creator of > Mandrake Linux, responsible for communications. I hope this is > "MandrakeSoft" enough for you. > > Here's what he answered: > > > In short: > > The overall Linux retail market (all distributions) in the USA has > decreased by around 20% by year since year 2000. One of the reasons for > this decline is that most users now have access to a high-bandwitdh > access, so they prefer to download the ISOs. As a result we started to > lose money on the US retail, so we agreed to stop it with our US > distributor. > > At the same time, online services and MandrakeStore revenues are > exploding, so it's certainly a better business model than pushing just > one or two products in shelves. For instance, we sell maybe a dozen > MandrakeSoft products on Store, it would be impossible to do in the > retail. And we're thinking about selling "dematerialized products" for > download (all pack ISOs for instance), which is really a more powerful > business model. > > Anyway, if we feel that the retail market would start to grow up again, > we would certainly consider to address it again. We're also aware that > being on shelves is good for mindshare. > > Regards, > > Gaël. > > > I can see his point. > > wobo > If you ask me (and no one with any sense would) this really sounds like an interesting opportunity. I wonder what the total sales just in best buy and CompUSA would be > > __ > > Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? > Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Tuesday 16 September 2003 23:02, Anne Wilson wrote: > Write to our favourite mags, > regularly, quoting Mandrake as often as possible. Not a bad idea (I'm a LXF subscriber too), could be worth our while to make our preferences known. I bet there's quite a few of us here. Ann you are priceless at helping getting things done , which are so obvious nobody does them. Like the twikigot the sig back up reviving from my last system foul up, BTW. Good for you and love for it!:o) Good luck, HarM -- Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Tuesday 16 Sep 2003 9:33 pm, Wolfgang Bornath wrote: > > Anyway, if we feel that the retail market would start to grow up > again, we would certainly consider to address it again. We're also > aware that being on shelves is good for mindshare. > > Regards, > > Gaël. > > > I can see his point. > Fair enough. So the best we can do is to keep pushing the name in any way we can to improve visibility. Write to our favourite mags, regularly, quoting Mandrake as often as possible. Promote amongs friends, acquaintances and business associates whenever it may get a fair hearing. At least we know now what we can and can't do. Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
John Wilson schrieb am Tue, 16 Sep 2003 12:41:03 -0700: > My assumption is that either the entry into bankruptcy protection > messed up their distrubtion channels and McMillian pulled back or that > someone just dropped the ball in North America. Sorry to say, but: no. I took the freedom to forward Anne Wilson's first message in this thread, starting with: > I have moved to a new thread, in the hope that someone at > MandrakeSoft, or at least, someone in touch with MandrakeSoft, might > see it. I forwarded it to Gaël Duval, co-founder of MandrakeSoft, creator of Mandrake Linux, responsible for communications. I hope this is "MandrakeSoft" enough for you. Here's what he answered: In short: The overall Linux retail market (all distributions) in the USA has decreased by around 20% by year since year 2000. One of the reasons for this decline is that most users now have access to a high-bandwitdh access, so they prefer to download the ISOs. As a result we started to lose money on the US retail, so we agreed to stop it with our US distributor. At the same time, online services and MandrakeStore revenues are exploding, so it's certainly a better business model than pushing just one or two products in shelves. For instance, we sell maybe a dozen MandrakeSoft products on Store, it would be impossible to do in the retail. And we're thinking about selling "dematerialized products" for download (all pack ISOs for instance), which is really a more powerful business model. Anyway, if we feel that the retail market would start to grow up again, we would certainly consider to address it again. We're also aware that being on shelves is good for mindshare. Regards, Gaël. I can see his point. wobo Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On September 16, 2003 03:00 am, ed tharp wrote: > When you look, see if the box has any mention of McMillian Publishing. > THese are the same company that puts out "Que" books, and at one time > was the USA (possibly IIRC for the English language Areas version) > distributor for MDK, and may still be. When I went hunting for a boxed set of 9.0 I found them in a little store that specializes in this sort of thing. The boxes weren't McMillan but Mandrake. They said they got them from Mandrake's Quebec offices. Following the downsizing and what have we earlier this year the store was unable to get in any boxed sets of Mandrake, in spite of the fact that it outsold SuSE and RedHat by a factor of 2-1. My assumption is that either the entry into bankruptcy protection messed up their distrubtion channels and McMillian pulled back or that someone just dropped the ball in North America. ttfn John Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
Around here (it was Borders i think) Mandrake 9.0 was on the shelf nect to RedHat. I noticed it just before 9.1 came out, and i didn't get the idea it just showed up. Of coure, i live in pasadena, california, 1 mile from where the old US Mandrake office was... -- Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Tuesday 16 September 2003 10:33, T. Ribbrock wrote: > Admittedly, I've been wondering about this as well. In the > Netherlands, *if* I see a distro in the shops, it's SuSE or Red Hat > and that's it. > > Cheerio, > > Thomas I've noticed the same and also noticed that what is on offer, is usually horribly outdated. I think it's the short lifespans of distro's (the versions) that would keep a shop owner weary of buying too many different distro's. It'd be different if all linux distro's could/would be distributed from one source (read: adress) so that it wouldn't be too much of hassle to return old ones for the newer ones, methinks. Good luck, HarM Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
ed tharp wrote: When you look, see if the box has any mention of McMillian Publishing. THese are the same company that puts out "Que" books, and at one time was the USA (possibly IIRC for the English language Areas version) distributor for MDK, and may still be. The boxes I saw in Canterbury were the Mandrake ones, the same than those you can find in France (but in English, of course). Eric Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Tue, 2003-09-16 at 04:57, Anne Wilson wrote: > On Tuesday 16 Sep 2003 9:46 am, Eric Fernandez wrote: > > T. Ribbrock wrote: > > >On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 09:08:49AM +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: > > >>I really would like to see some authorative statement as to why > > >>Mandrake has this visibility problem. Linux has little > > >> shelf-space in the UK, but I have *never* seen a Mandrake box. > > > > There are Mandrake boxes in PCWorld in UK (9.1). > > > > Eric > > Really? I shall be going to the Huddersfield branch sometime this > week. I'll see if they have any > > Anne When you look, see if the box has any mention of McMillian Publishing. THese are the same company that puts out "Que" books, and at one time was the USA (possibly IIRC for the English language Areas version) distributor for MDK, and may still be. -- ++ Mandrake HowTo's & More: http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
Anne Wilson wrote: On Tuesday 16 Sep 2003 9:46 am, Eric Fernandez wrote: T. Ribbrock wrote: On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 09:08:49AM +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: I really would like to see some authorative statement as to why Mandrake has this visibility problem. Linux has little shelf-space in the UK, but I have *never* seen a Mandrake box. There are Mandrake boxes in PCWorld in UK (9.1). Eric Really? I shall be going to the Huddersfield branch sometime this week. I'll see if they have any Anne Yes, I saw them in Canterbury. Eric Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
On Tuesday 16 Sep 2003 9:46 am, Eric Fernandez wrote: > T. Ribbrock wrote: > >On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 09:08:49AM +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: > >>I really would like to see some authorative statement as to why > >>Mandrake has this visibility problem. Linux has little > >> shelf-space in the UK, but I have *never* seen a Mandrake box. > > There are Mandrake boxes in PCWorld in UK (9.1). > > Eric Really? I shall be going to the Huddersfield branch sometime this week. I'll see if they have any Anne -- Registered Linux User No.293302 Have you visited http://twiki.mdklinuxfaq.org yet? Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
Re: [expert] Re: Mandrake's visibility
T. Ribbrock wrote: On Tue, Sep 16, 2003 at 09:08:49AM +0100, Anne Wilson wrote: I really would like to see some authorative statement as to why Mandrake has this visibility problem. Linux has little shelf-space in the UK, but I have *never* seen a Mandrake box. There are Mandrake boxes in PCWorld in UK (9.1). Eric Want to buy your Pack or Services from MandrakeSoft? Go to http://www.mandrakestore.com
