Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Apr 2, 2009, at 12:01 AM, Robert wrote: I personally don't care which meditation technique the kids learn...just as long as they learn and are taught something which transcends the usually superficial nonsense they spend all of their time on... TM or Mindfulness; either is fine...perhaps one should be given the choice, as mindfulness is a Buddhist practice. The mindfulness movement, or an aspect of it, is to promote mindfulness meditation as a truly non-sectarian, universal practice common to ALL religions. So the trend is to remove any blatant Buddhist elements to any such practices and base them on solid science. My sister practices mindfulness and she calls herself a Buddhist... So, is Buddhism a religion? Not in the traditional sense. As Robert Thurman points out, Buddhism or buddha-dharma is actually an Awakening School. That not to say that there are people who don't practice Buddhism as a religion or even as a superstition, some do. IMO to the extent that Buddhism or Hinduism, etc. are practiced as superstitious religions is the extent to which they depart from being Awakening Schools. Because when I ask my sister if she believes in God, so seems to explain the Buddha is not a God, and that mindfulness makes you aware of the nothingness of existence... So, in a way, it just seems like a form of 'Existentialism'. And in that case, we still are back to 'In God We Trust'...dollar as king of kings, queen of queens, and so on and so forth. So, I would assume that since Caesar's been running things, perhaps this Existential existence meditation, might fly better in the American schools. That's why the idea of non-sectarian, non-religious programs like the MindfulKids Foundation need to be promoted and why disguised religious movements like the David Lynch Foundation and Transcendental Meditation need to be exposed for the frauds they truly are. Even their science does not pan out. What I don't understand about Buddhism, is the belief in nothingness, and the belief in reincarnation... How could we have the 14th of one? Is the Dalai Lama like God, to the Buddhists? No, he's a reincarnating Bodhisattva, westerners who like to project things based on their own lack of understanding characterize him as a god man. Very misleading and factually incorrect. Who and what reincarnates? Good question. It's answered different depending on the View of who's asked. Does one have a specific soul, or is one soulless, what does Buddhism really teach about these things? From the POV of Inner Tantra, what transmigrates is basically our spiritual gene, our subtle accumulated propensities and habits, both good and bad. We continue to find different levels of RNA and DNA expression. I suspect what we'll eventually find is that a finer level of this physical or non-physical phenomenon exists and allows traits to continue across what appears as sequential time that condition continuation of similar consciousness'. Morphogenetic memories.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
You didn't show your dome badege; you haven't posted anything to prove your status in the TMO. Let's see some proof before you go opening your pie-hole about TM and the TMO and the Marshy. Curtis wrote: This coming from the genius who defines TM as thinking things over! Well, Curtis, obviously you don't have a dome badge, and you can't seem to post anything to prove you're a 'TM teacher, and I didn't see your definition of 'TM', so since you've opened your pie hole, why not just post your definition of 'TM', so we can read it, instead of being trollish and downright snarky. This shouldn't be much of a task, since you're claiming to be a 'TM teacher' with very high TMO status, and a graduate in philosophy from MUM. Or, maybe it's time for you to just shut your pie hole. Everyone meditates; there's probably not a single person on the planet who doesn't pause once or twice a day to take stock of their own mental contents. And we're transcending, all the time. Meditation simply means to 'think things over'. According to Marshy, meditation is based on thinking. It's that simple. meditation noun 1. to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2. to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: You didn't show your dome badege; you haven't posted anything to prove your status in the TMO. Let's see some proof before you go opening your pie-hole about TM and the TMO and the Marshy. Curtis wrote: This coming from the genius who defines TM as thinking things over! Well, Curtis, obviously you don't have a dome badge, and you can't seem to post anything to prove you're a 'TM teacher, and I didn't see your definition of 'TM', so since you've opened your pie hole, why not just post your definition of 'TM', so we can read it, instead of being trollish and downright snarky. This shouldn't be much of a task, since you're claiming to be a 'TM teacher' with very high TMO status, and a graduate in philosophy from MUM. Or, maybe it's time for you to just shut your pie hole. Everyone meditates; there's probably not a single person on the planet who doesn't pause once or twice a day to take stock of their own mental contents. And we're transcending, all the time. Meditation simply means to 'think things over'. According to Marshy, meditation is based on thinking. It's that simple. meditation noun 1. to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2. to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2 Someone give willy a Prep Lecture which distinguishes TM from other forms of meditation and everything willy claims TM is. And who the heck is sophie?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: You didn't show your dome badege; you haven't posted anything to prove your status in the TMO. Let's see some proof before you go opening your pie-hole about TM and the TMO and the Marshy. Curtis wrote: This coming from the genius who defines TM as thinking things over! Well, Curtis, obviously you don't have a dome badge, and you can't seem to post anything to prove you're a 'TM teacher, You got me Richard! All this time posting here and I never practiced TM or took any TM courses, never graduated from MIU, never spent years in Sidhaland, never became a teacher of TM and never ran the DC center. I had everyone fooled but you! and I didn't see your definition of 'TM', I have no idea so I'll just go with yours: TM is thinking things over. so since you've opened your pie hole, why not just post your definition of 'TM', so we can read it, instead of being trollish and downright snarky. I don't know about trollish since I am responding to your trollish antics but as far as you bringing out the full potential of snark in me, I am guilty as charged. With your prove you were a teacher tourettes tic routine, I'm afraid I can't take you seriously on any level. This shouldn't be much of a task, since you're claiming to be a 'TM teacher' with No you busted me and now I can admit I have never taken any TM course of any kind. I come here to pretend to have had a history in the movement. I wouldn't know a TM mantra from a list of Chinese spices as Jerry used to say. (If I had been in the movement to hear him, which I wasn't. very high TMO status, trollish bullshit. and a graduate in philosophy from MUM. The hardest thing was faking my online MIU pictures in the yearbook because back then there was very little hair product and I had a very hard to duplicate natural wave. Or, maybe it's time for you to just shut your pie hole. Ah the belligerent bellowing of someone who has spent a lifetime Thinking things over. How could a non meditator like me doubt the calming and enlightening effects! Everyone meditates; there's probably not a single person on the planet who doesn't pause once or twice a day to take stock of their own mental contents. Whoa,wait a minute here Richard! Perhaps I am back in the game. I do this too so I must be a natural TMer! And we're transcending, all the time. Meditation simply means to 'think things over'. There are some things so entertaining that no matter how many times you hear them they deliver! According to Marshy, meditation is based on thinking. As opposed to being based on what, with it being a mental technique and all? Was this a tough principle to come up with you think? It's that simple. Oh yeah, there is simplicity at work here. meditation noun 1. to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Uh oh, not the religious question again! Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. I know I pretend to close my eyes with her and then spend the entire time staring at her chest. 2. to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. That sounds exactly like TM, excellent reference Richard! Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: What do they know, who finds them an authority on anything! Wait, did you mean Cambridge Cambridge? The guys with the imperiously faggy accents? Sorry I stand corrected, they do know what they are talking about. So now we have a definitive definition of TM: TM is thinking calm thoughts about Sophia's chest as a religious activity and thinking seriously about how to get her to undress for a long time, while pretending to be a Teacher of TM on an online chat forum in a group I was never a part of. http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Everyone meditates; there's probably not a single person on the planet who doesn't pause once or twice a day to take stock of their own mental contents. And we're transcending, all the time. Meditation simply means to 'think things over'. According to Marshy, meditation is based on thinking. It's that simple. boo_lives wrote: Someone give willy a Prep Lecture which distinguishes TM from other forms of meditation and everything willy claims TM is. According to Barry1 and Barry2, there are lots of meditation techniques that work as well or better than TM. Vaj claims that TM doesn't even deliver what the Marshy promises. But, why get others to do your work for you? You don't even know who 'sophie' is! Let's see your dome badge or get out of here - stop wasting out time. Or at least, shut your big pie hole about TM. According to Maharishi, TM is the passing of the cognitive attention from one level of consciousnes to another, sutler level of consciousness. This passing back and forth between the gross and finer levels of consciousness is what makes possible the opportunity for transcending. First, there is just thought; then become aware of the bija-mantra, just like any other thought. In TM, when the thought process reaches the finest level of awareness, thought drops off and the practitioner is left all by his Self. How to Be? Stop being active, but don't become passive. That is, stop being active, but don't fall asleep. Just Be. Pure Consciousness. Just go in and meditate, then come out and radiate! It's that simple. Enjoy. Now that wasn't that difficult, was it, Mr. Boo? Walla Sutra 1.3: No object has been percieved; not the field, but the perceiving subject; not prakrit, in any form, but the Person, alone, a witness: consciousness of nothing in and of itself; transcendental and ideation. meditation noun 1. to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Sophie meditates for 20 minutes every day. 2. to think seriously about something for a long time: He meditated on the consequences of his decision. Source: Cambridge University Dictionary: http://tinyurl.com/dz5ut2
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
1. to think calm thoughts in order to relax or as a religious activity: Curtis wrote: I do this too so I must be a natural TMer! Well, that's my point, Curtis. You've been meditating for most of your adult life. Anyone who practices playing music as much as you do, probably meditates at least twelve to fifteen hours a day, learning how to sing, play the guitar and the tambourine. It's just that not everyone makes singing on street corners their religion. But who knows, if you continue with your music you may become enlightened, if you're not there already. It worked for the celestial musicians, the Gandharvas! Gandharvas are male nature spirits, husbands of the Apsaras. Some are part animal, usually a bird or horse. They have superb musical skills. They guarded the Soma and made beautiful music for the gods in their palaces. In Hindu theology, Gandharvas act as messengers between the gods and humans. Read more: Gandharvas: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gandharvas
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: According to Maharishi, TM is the passing of the cognitive attention from one level of consciousnes to another, sutler level of consciousness. This passing back and forth between the gross and finer levels of consciousness is what makes possible the opportunity for transcending. First, there is just thought; then become aware of the bija-mantra, just like any other thought. In TM, when the thought process reaches the finest level of awareness, thought drops off and the practitioner is left all by his Self. Oh, yeah! Well, suukSma-viSayatvaM caalin.gaparyavasaanam (ca + alin.ga-paryavasaanam )... :D
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
That InnerKids foundation looks very cool. Thanks for the heads up. I'd never heard of it. An MBSR instructor I know tells me kids take to Mindfullness instruction amazingly fast. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Mar 27, 2009, at 10:31 AM, grate.swan wrote: Provind a pure meditation method is what I am discussing and proposing. No you're not. You're being an apologist for a religious form of meditation, plain and simple. There's nothing pure about it, unless of course you meant purely Hindu. If you want a non-sectarian form of meditation and attentional skills for children, you need look no further than the InnerKids Foundation. No mumbo jumbo Hindu initiation rituals. no repeating bija-aksharas of Hindu devatas. No faux-physics, pilot research, exaggeration or bias. Just awareness being aware of itself. Mindfulness is universal, the science is good and sound and the infrastructure is already in place.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: . Judy, I find this not only insulting, but unworthy of an otherwise excellent conversation about our different POVs on this subject. It is a version of ad hominem and has no place in our discussion. Oh, boo-freaking-hoo. Let me run get my tiny violin. Well isn't she just the sweetest. Apparently I really hit a nerve. There's so much that's dishonest and wrong about your tirade here-- including your gross distortions of my arguments at the end--I don't know where to start. So I'm not going to start; I'm going to let you stew in your own juice. That could be construed as a death threat. chuckle You and your pal Barry can just enjoy yourselves crying on each others' shoulders about how horribly I treat you.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: Here's an old picture of me and the Big Reesh on vacation in Canada. He was an excellent student in many ways!: Now that *is* funny, even if Nabby does think it will costs yas a few extra yugas in the bardo for posting it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
!Conservative meditators take to the street protesing non-meditation in advance of the McCartney/Lynch/Ringo Starr concert in NYC! NPR reports: huge security expenses, people getting hurt, windows getting smashed, buildings being defaced. BBC: Burning tires, banks being broken into on Wall Street, rioting. One meditator demostrator protesting their arrest by law enforcement decries: If only one half of the TMresearch is correct then this is entirely worth it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, satvadude108 no_re...@... wrote: That InnerKids foundation looks very cool. Thanks for the heads up. I'd never heard of it. An MBSR instructor I know tells me kids take to Mindfullness instruction amazingly fast. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Mar 27, 2009, at 10:31 AM, grate.swan wrote: Provind a pure meditation method is what I am discussing and proposing. No you're not. You're being an apologist for a religious form of meditation, plain and simple. There's nothing pure about it, unless of course you meant purely Hindu. If you want a non-sectarian form of meditation and attentional skills for children, you need look no further than the InnerKids Foundation. No mumbo jumbo Hindu initiation rituals. no repeating bija-aksharas of Hindu devatas. No faux-physics, pilot research, exaggeration or bias. Just awareness being aware of itself. Mindfulness is universal, the science is good and sound and the infrastructure is already in place. I personally don't care which meditation technique the kids learn...just as long as they learn and are taught something which transcends the usually superficial nonsense they spend all of their time on... TM or Mindfulness; either is fine...perhaps one should be given the choice, as mindfulness is a Buddhist practice. My sister practices mindfulness and she calls herself a Buddhist... So, is Buddhism a religion? Because when I ask my sister if she believes in God, so seems to explain the Buddha is not a God, and that mindfulness makes you aware of the nothingness of existence... So, in a way, it just seems like a form of 'Existentialism'. And in that case, we still are back to 'In God We Trust'...dollar as king of kings, queen of queens, and so on and so forth. So, I would assume that since Caesar's been running things, perhaps this Existential existence meditation, might fly better in the American schools. What I don't understand about Buddhism, is the belief in nothingness, and the belief in reincarnation... How could we have the 14th of one? Is the Dalai Lama like God, to the Buddhists? Who and what reincarnates? Does one have a specific soul, or is one soulless, what does Buddhism really teach about these things? R.G.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: snip You didn't show your dome badege; you haven't posted anything to prove your status in the TMO. Let's see some proof before you go opening your pie-hole about TM and the TMO and the Marshy. This coming from the genius who defines TM as thinking things over! Judy wrote: It's disingenuous for you to lump me and raunchydog and ed11 in with Willytex, Curtis. Curtis wrote: Let's see, I was responding to Raunchy and Dicky boy directly, why would you feel threatened? You failed to respond, Curtis: let me rephrase the question: 'What would it take to get you off the dope and out of the Marshy cult once and for all'? What you wrote to me was all about being a drug-addict. You didn't show your dome badege; you haven't posted anything to prove your status in the TMO. Let's see some proof before you go opening your pie-hole about TM and the TMO and the Marshy. snip He's discredited *himself* personally. And you're discrediting yourself by defending him and attacking us. Yeah, this is pretty much what I expected from the enlightened. Now Curtis has been discredited by Judy. Vaj and Turq have both been discredited. Who wants to be next?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip The lack of interest in Vaj's perspective I see here, the polemic gamesmanship used to try to discredit him personally rather than address the points he has brought up, reveals an anti-intellectual bias that reminds me of a political machine. I know that he returns fire and I'm sure I'll be deluged with his many online sins for defending him here. But here you have a guy who is wy into meditation and is obviously very sharp, and I don't sense a shred of curiosity about his detailed perspective among the people here who claim to be way into self development? BIG WTF? Did everyone miss the compare and contrast angle in your education? An intellectual resource is being squandered on both sides here. On a forum with people who have done TM for decades, and some who have done it for 15 years or more and then went into other techniques to compare TM to, the best we can produce intellectually is: Show me you dome badge buddy!? It's disingenuous for you to lump me and raunchydog and ed11 in with Willytex, Curtis. Let's see, I was responding to Raunchy and Dicky boy directly, why would you feel threatened? Threatened?? I said you were being disingenuous. And you were clearly including me. The three of us are making valid points about Vaj's compare and contrast performance here. We're not demanding he show his dome badge Both DICK and Raunchy did and that was how I was responding to. Raunchy asked where Vaj had taken TTC. She didn't ask for his dome badge. Nor was that the best [she] could produce intellectually. We *are* genuinely and legitimately curious as to how he could ever have been a TM teacher as he claims, and yet come up with the kind of flat-out nonsense that has appeared in his current spate of posts. You didn't understand what I wrote. OK. But you're unable to identify or correct the purported misunderstanding. OK. You can't do a valid compare-and-contrast if you can't give an accurate account of one of the things you're comparing and contrasting. It doesn't matter how many other things you know about or how extensive your knowledge of them is. No one responded to my question about thinking the mantra from a body part as a lack of innocence question. I have only the first advanced technique, so I have no basis for responding to it. But that's a total non sequitur to my point; and in any case, we're talking--or I was talking--about basic TM, not advanced techniques. I could speculate about possible explanations, but that's a whole 'nother discussion. I have no more basis to concede your point than I do to refute it. To go back to Barry's analogy with crayons, if somebody's insisting that crayons are an inferior medium because all they can produce is black and white, the very first question that comes to mind is, Have you ever *used* crayons? Do you even know what they are? The idea that a mind like Vaj's didn't have sufficient exposure to TM teaching to be this devoted to TM Websites is absurd. I'll go further, the kind of detailed mind Vaj exhibits, the thoroughness he approaches every topic,indicates that if he was into TM, he took it to its limit to me. I don't think that's necessarily a slam-dunk, but even if it were, it wouldn't be responsive to *my* point, which is that these questions would still arise: If Vaj *were* a TM teacher, how could he possibly demonstrate such gross misunderstanding of what it involves? And if he then claims he used to *teach* crayon drawing, well, the jaw just drops. *Of course* we'd ask him to come up with some kind of varification of his having been a crayon drawing teacher. He doesn't sound like a TM teacher because he doesn't believe any of the presuppositions of TM. No, the issue is that he misrepresents--factually-- the instructions for TM. There are teachers here who don't believe the presuppositions either, but that issue doesn't arise with them. It doesn't arise with you, for example, or with Barry. (The issue with you and Barry is why you're defending Vaj when you must know what I'm saying is correct.) If what you say were true, he should be able to start with an accurate account of the instructions (even in his own words) and go on from there. Again, though, whether his claim to have been a TM teacher is true is a secondary issue. It arises *because* of the primary issue. Something has gone cockeyed somewhere for him to insist on such misrepresentations. If he *was* a TM teacher, we have to look for other explanations; simple ignorance of the facts doesn't account for it. Serious memory deficit? Cognitive deficit? The intention to
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Judy wrote: It's disingenuous for you to lump me and raunchydog and ed11 in with Willytex, Curtis. Curtis wrote: Let's see, I was responding to Raunchy and Dicky boy directly, why would you feel threatened? You failed to respond, Curtis: let me rephrase the question: 'What would it take to get you off the dope and out of the Marshy cult once and for all'? What you wrote to me was all about being a drug-addict. You didn't show your dome badege; you haven't posted anything to prove your status in the TMO. Let's see some proof before you go opening your pie-hole about TM and the TMO and the Marshy. snip He's discredited *himself* personally. And you're discrediting yourself by defending him and attacking us. Yeah, this is pretty much what I expected from the enlightened. Now Curtis has been discredited by Judy. Vaj and Turq have both been discredited. Who wants to be next?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: I'm talking about the outward stroke RD, not the inward one. If you keep returning on the outward stroke it's because your level of attention was faulty...another thing you were apparently never told... ...here, have a cracker Polly. Well, FWIW: *vyutthaana*-nirodha-saMskaarayor abhibhava-praadurbhaavau nirodha-kSaNa-cittaanvayo nirodha-pariNaamaH...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine salsunsh...@... wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Vaj wrote: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. My god, don't you guys ever get tired of this boring crap? Tell me about it. My 'NEXT' button finger is almost worn out this morning. :-) Yet another round of people *who have never practiced any other technique of meditation other than TM* declaring over and over, TM is unique!!! The absurdity of it staggers the imagination. At least Vaj has *practiced* other forms of meditation, and thus has the ability to com- pare them to TM. But WHY BOTHER? What is the point of making such comparisons for people so stupid as to believe that they can declare how unlike any other technique of meditation (and how superior) TM is, *while never having experienced any other techniques*. It's like trying to explain what makes paint- ings in a museum masterpieces to a group of people whose concept of art *started with and stayed with* crayons, and staying within the lines in their coloring books. Talking about composition and the differences in brush strokes and coloration is kinda silly when you're dealing with people who are waving a box of Crayolas and screaming *THIS* is what you use to create Art! And we know because we use these crayons every day. We don't have to learn any complicated stuff like how to mix paints and use brushes. That's for lesser artists, not for us.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine salsunshine@ wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Vaj wrote: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. My god, don't you guys ever get tired of this boring crap? Tell me about it. My 'NEXT' button finger is almost worn out this morning. :-) Yet another round of people *who have never practiced any other technique of meditation other than TM* declaring over and over, TM is unique!!! The absurdity of it staggers the imagination. At least Vaj has *practiced* other forms of meditation, and thus has the ability to com- pare them to TM. But WHY BOTHER? What is the point of making such comparisons for people so stupid as to believe that they can declare how unlike any other technique of meditation (and how superior) TM is, *while never having experienced any other techniques*. I never declared that TM was unlike any other technique of meditation nor that it was superior. I only know about TM so I can't make that comparison. I don't compare it to any other techniques. I only describe the process of the technique that I know, TM. Vaj claims that he knows about TM. Based of he description of the TM process he makes, which is incorrect, I claim that he does not know about TM. He may know a lot about other techniques. Fine. I have no idea whether or not they are superior or inferior to TM. That's not the point. The point is that it comes to TM, Vaj doesn't know what the hell he's talking about. It's like trying to explain what makes paint- ings in a museum masterpieces to a group of people whose concept of art *started with and stayed with* crayons, and staying within the lines in their coloring books. Talking about composition and the differences in brush strokes and coloration is kinda silly when you're dealing with people who are waving a box of Crayolas and screaming *THIS* is what you use to create Art! And we know because we use these crayons every day. We don't have to learn any complicated stuff like how to mix paints and use brushes. That's for lesser artists, not for us.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Sal Sunshine wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Vaj wrote: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. My god, don't you guys ever get tired of this boring crap? Yes, I do. It's probably time for a TM and mantra meditation FAQ. But since RD's relatively new here, I thought I'd help dispossess her of some of the fictions she's acquired with so little independent thought. But, yeah, it's like having to watch an old grump wake up. Some never really do, but instead cling to their illusions.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 10:18 PM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: Vaj, You haven't a clue about the practice of TM. Intersting opinion but WRONG. :-) Really, in terms of the technical description of how TM is practiced in the initial technique--it's not truly like 'any other thought', as one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness (or smriti to use the actual WRONG. No one is enjoined to maintain mindfulness. That would require effort. TM is effortless. You weren't told to wait for the mantra? You don't remember to return to the mantra when you're back in thoughts? You need to get checked! Maintaining mindfulness implies effort. It is not TM and is not the same as coming back to the mantra as effortlessly as any other thought. That's why the Sanskrit word for technique, prayatna, also means effort. The two are inseparably and inescapably interconnected. If there is no smriti, you'd never re-engage the mantra. PS: Any technique cannot, by definition, be effortless. This is a common TM fallacy. All it indicates is you've been indoctrinated in a untenable belief and you fell for it. MMY actually admitted at Estes Park that TM is not effortless. It's just a marketing spiel parroted by people who really aren't that familiar with meditation. I never heard of such BS as you're pumping out here, today. You should get out more and stop believing what everything everyone tells you. It makes you look like a fool parroting nonsense. Although it does sound like a good sales spiel, you obviously will have a hard time as the truth about meditation becomes clearer to you. All I can say is, you are not alone. This is part of what happens with phony gurus who really make it up as they go along: sometimes they get it right, but more often than not they just seed confusion in the hearts and minds of their students. My TM practice IS effortless and the hundreds of people I've checked have had effortless meditation during checking. Well no Raunch, let me stop you right there. You believed it was effortless because you were conditioned to believe this and accepted this conditioning. Now you're attached to that conditioning and you protect it like a security blanket. You cannot see through the illusions you've acquired. So you lash out when someone points out your illusions. You're not the only one thrashing about with their illusions here Raunch, this one's a hard one for TM folks, esp. teachers who accepted teachings uncritically and then incorporated them into who they thought they were. Maharishi never said TM requires any effort other than effortlessly picking up the mantra as effortlessly as any other thought. Do you interpret this to mean Maharishi is ADMITTING TM requires effort? You're way off base on that one, Buddy. Further, TM IS effortless and just not a marketing spiel and yes, I am VERY familiar with effortless meditation, everyday twice a day since 1972. Unless, you have actually practiced TM, and it doesn't sound like you have, you're just pontificating about something you don't know anything about. I don't know what meditation you practice, but I'd be surprised if you've ever had an effortless meditation a day in your life. It's pretty clear you really don't know what you're talking about. Ole Mahesh promoted a number of lies about meditation in general and TM specifically. I suspect you'd be in for a big surprise if you went to India and tried to spout off your imagined wisdom. Granted these are very subtle distinctions, but meditation is a subtle practice. But the distinction between method, prayatna-based meditation and true effortless meditation represents a very important distinction between dualistic forms of meditation and advaita, esp. in the Shankaracharya tradition.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 11:40 PM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: I've learned a lot of variations on mantra concentration over the years, from the TM charm causes the mind to spontaneously concentrate idea to many other kinds. One of the problems I noticed with very slack techniques like TM is that you can lose clarity if you get used to allowing the mantra to be just this fuzzy impulse. It's too easy to fall into the defects (of mantra practice). It seems to me the dogmas that surround TM mantra recitation has actually hindered the practice. What a load of crap. The only thing that hinders TM practice is effort. TM is not mantra recitation. Recitation implies effort. Checking establishes effortless practice. Seems to me your defective dogma has hindered your understanding of TM. Checking establishes easy practice, but no method can be considered effortless. Chuch the method, then we can talk. ;-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Sal Sunshine wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Vaj wrote: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. My god, don't you guys ever get tired of this boring crap? Yes, I do. It's probably time for a TM and mantra meditation FAQ. But since RD's relatively new here, I thought I'd help dispossess her of some of the fictions she's acquired with so little independent thought. But, yeah, it's like having to watch an old grump wake up. Some never really do, but instead cling to their illusions. Vaj, Your superior tone is nothing more than delusions grandeur. You think you know about TM. You don't. By the way when and where did you do TTC? Did you ever teach anyone TM? Where and when was that? If you're a TM teacher, as Judy says you claim, you've seriously fallen off the wagon. Answer straight up or expose yourself as a fraud.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Sal Sunshine wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Vaj wrote: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. My god, don't you guys ever get tired of this boring crap? Yes, I do. It's probably time for a TM and mantra meditation FAQ. But since RD's relatively new here, I thought I'd help dispossess her of some of the fictions she's acquired with so little independent thought. But, yeah, it's like having to watch an old grump wake up. Some never really do, but instead cling to their illusions. Vaj, Your superior tone is nothing more than delusions grandeur. You think you know about TM. You don't. By the way when and where did you do TTC? Did you ever teach anyone TM? Where and when was that? If you're a TM teacher, as Judy says you claim, you've seriously fallen off the wagon. Answer straight up or expose yourself as a fraud. You're off the waggon and off the program Vaj, get a checking!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
enjoy your dance-- i will too. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_reply@ wrote: fwiw, in a future lifetime, possibly two or three from this one, Vaj and the others on here with an antagonistic relationship to their TM experiences will be great proponents of the technique. I'm a very big fan of poetic justice. Hilarity reigns in heaven. but there is zero chance of it being this lifetime, so no point in trying to change their minds during their current conflicted incarnation. Change their minds? Never. Return fire? Call them out on BS? Sure. Every good Kabuki dancer knows it's just a show, but Oh, the thrill of it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Vaj is conflicted between letting go with TM and being bound to the same old worthless traditions. that is why he wrestles with TM so, trying to fit it into a box that it doesn't fit in. the Maharishi was not one to resurrect the fools and worthlessness of the past, rather to make a clean, efficient break of all of that, teaching meditation as a dynamic, innocent and effortless practice, with nothing left for the ego to hang onto. Vaj, in his fear and ego will continue to challenge TM for years to come, always in conflict, never able either to just let go. others here feel the same allegiance to ego, not able to see TM for what it simply is, instead forcing it into old categories of mind, and fighting all who disagree; a last outpost for already dead ideas. they see it as rigor, whereas i see it as rigor mortis.:) --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Sal Sunshine wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Vaj wrote: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. My god, don't you guys ever get tired of this boring crap? Yes, I do. It's probably time for a TM and mantra meditation FAQ. But since RD's relatively new here, I thought I'd help dispossess her of some of the fictions she's acquired with so little independent thought. But, yeah, it's like having to watch an old grump wake up. Some never really do, but instead cling to their illusions. Vaj, Your superior tone is nothing more than delusions grandeur. You think you know about TM. You don't. By the way when and where did you do TTC? Did you ever teach anyone TM? Where and when was that? If you're a TM teacher, as Judy says you claim, you've seriously fallen off the wagon. Answer straight up or expose yourself as a fraud.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 29, 2009, at 9:53 AM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Sal Sunshine wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Vaj wrote: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. My god, don't you guys ever get tired of this boring crap? Yes, I do. It's probably time for a TM and mantra meditation FAQ. But since RD's relatively new here, I thought I'd help dispossess her of some of the fictions she's acquired with so little independent thought. But, yeah, it's like having to watch an old grump wake up. Some never really do, but instead cling to their illusions. Vaj, Your superior tone is nothing more than delusions grandeur. You think you know about TM. You don't. By the way when and where did you do TTC? Did you ever teach anyone TM? Where and when was that? If you're a TM teacher, as Judy says you claim, you've seriously fallen off the wagon. Answer straight up or expose yourself as a fraud. Non sequitur. Correct view of dualistic meditation has nothing to do with TTC, since correct View of meditation is not taught at TTC! Enjoy your false views Raunch, they're yours.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Vaj, Until you answer whether or not you are a TM teacher, you have absolutely no credibility on anything you say about TM. You are a fraud until you prove otherwise. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Mar 29, 2009, at 9:53 AM, raunchydog wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 10:13 PM, Sal Sunshine wrote: On Mar 28, 2009, at 8:47 PM, Vaj wrote: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. WRONG. When we become aware that we are not thinking the mantra, then we quietly come back to the mantra. Very easily we think the mantra and if at any moment we feel that we are forgetting it, we should not try to persist in repeating it. Only very easily we start and take it as it comes and do not hold the mantra if it tends to slip away. My god, don't you guys ever get tired of this boring crap? Yes, I do. It's probably time for a TM and mantra meditation FAQ. But since RD's relatively new here, I thought I'd help dispossess her of some of the fictions she's acquired with so little independent thought. But, yeah, it's like having to watch an old grump wake up. Some never really do, but instead cling to their illusions. Vaj, Your superior tone is nothing more than delusions grandeur. You think you know about TM. You don't. By the way when and where did you do TTC? Did you ever teach anyone TM? Where and when was that? If you're a TM teacher, as Judy says you claim, you've seriously fallen off the wagon. Answer straight up or expose yourself as a fraud. Non sequitur. Correct view of dualistic meditation has nothing to do with TTC, since correct View of meditation is not taught at TTC! Enjoy your false views Raunch, they're yours.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 29, 2009, at 10:24 AM, raunchydog wrote: Vaj, Until you answer whether or not you are a TM teacher, you have absolutely no credibility on anything you say about TM. You are a fraud until you prove otherwise. The only fraud I see here is the one presenting false views. I guess the good thing is, you have a lot of other people here who share your delusion. If you consider that good. My answer is the same as it's always been.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Vaj wrote: It's probably time for a TM and mantra meditation FAQ... raunchydog wrote: Vaj, Your superior tone is nothing more than delusions grandeur. You think you know about TM. You don't. By the way when and where did you do TTC? Did you ever teach anyone TM? Where and when was that? If you're a TM teacher, as Judy says you claim, you've seriously fallen off the wagon. Answer straight up or expose yourself as a fraud. Yeah, let's get some facts straight here. I've seen no evidence that any of the current informants here were ever at TTC, or even a student at MIU or even a *basic* TMer. Do any of you have a 'dome badge', a school transcript, a receipt, canceled check, or anything you can post? You would think that the anonymous posters like Vaj could post *something* to prove their status in the TMO or even tell us their name. Lon P. Stacks claimed he was the MIU 'printer' at the 'Manor' in Livingston. He claimed he printed the 'Orange Book'. Can you believe that? I am TM initiate #214 in the U.S.A., according to Beaulah Smith, and I meditate regularly in the 'Maharishi Golden Dome of Pure Knowledge', at Radiance, Texas and I can prove it. I've seen a photo of BillyG shaking hands with Charles F. Lutes, and I've seen a leaflet with Barry Wright's picture on it. Kirk posted a graduation photo of himself at MUM.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Mar 29, 2009, at 10:24 AM, raunchydog wrote: Vaj, Until you answer whether or not you are a TM teacher, you have absolutely no credibility on anything you say about TM. You are a fraud until you prove otherwise. The only fraud I see here is the one presenting false views. I guess the good thing is, you have a lot of other people here who share your delusion. If you consider that good. My answer is the same as it's always been. Which is? Waiting, tapping foot. Still waiting. Is Vaj a TM teacher or a FRAUD? Will Vaj continue to prove himself to be a bullshit artist extraordinaire or explain why he has any authority AT ALL to pontificate as a TM teacher run amok?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Vaj, Until you answer whether or not you are a TM teacher, you have absolutely no credibility on anything you say about TM. You are a fraud until you prove otherwise. Vaj wrote: The only fraud I see here is the one presenting false views. I guess the good thing is, you have a lot of other people here who share your delusion. If you consider that good. My answer is the same as it's always been. Yeah, lets expose all the fraudsters on FFL! It's about time we call them on their scams and schemes. Let's find out who is telling the truth and who is telling all the lies. And let's find out who all these FFL 'moderators' are as well. Let's get everything out in the open. Who are you impostors anyway and what is your game? Just be honest - what happened to all the money? What would it take to get you out of cult once and for all?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: I've seen a photo of BillyG shaking hands with Charles F. Lutes, and I've seen a leaflet with Barry Wright's picture on it. Kirk posted a graduation photo of himself at MUM. Vaj...nada.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: So you are thinking that a bunch of people here are interested enough in TM to post regularly concerning their detailed opinions of where Maharishi got it wrong... with no detailed exposure to his system of thought? Do I have that right? That a guy like Vaj who has been posting his POV online for decades didn't at one time have a lot of chips on the golden tables of Seelisberg, but somehow got spontaneously fascinated enough to post on TM forums regularly and in detail refuting the specific practice of TM from his new perspective gained from his years of practice of other techniques? And now he is required to provide more info that could blow his cover on an online forum because he has not been parroting the party line here and dares to use phrases of his own to describe his own perspective of TM and the goals of meditation? The lack of interest in Vaj's perspective I see here, the polemic gamesmanship used to try to discredit him personally rather than address the points he has brought up, reveals an anti-intellectual bias that reminds me of a political machine. I know that he returns fire and I'm sure I'll be deluged with his many online sins for defending him here. But here you have a guy who is wy into meditation and is obviously very sharp, and I don't sense a shred of curiosity about his detailed perspective among the people here who claim to be way into self development? BIG WTF? Did everyone miss the compare and contrast angle in your education? An intellectual resource is being squandered on both sides here. On a forum with people who have done TM for decades, and some who have done it for 15 years or more and then went into other techniques to compare TM to, the best we can produce intellectually is: Show me you dome badge buddy!? Vaj wrote: It's probably time for a TM and mantra meditation FAQ... raunchydog wrote: Vaj, Your superior tone is nothing more than delusions grandeur. You think you know about TM. You don't. By the way when and where did you do TTC? Did you ever teach anyone TM? Where and when was that? If you're a TM teacher, as Judy says you claim, you've seriously fallen off the wagon. Answer straight up or expose yourself as a fraud. Yeah, let's get some facts straight here. I've seen no evidence that any of the current informants here were ever at TTC, or even a student at MIU or even a *basic* TMer. Do any of you have a 'dome badge', a school transcript, a receipt, canceled check, or anything you can post? You would think that the anonymous posters like Vaj could post *something* to prove their status in the TMO or even tell us their name. Lon P. Stacks claimed he was the MIU 'printer' at the 'Manor' in Livingston. He claimed he printed the 'Orange Book'. Can you believe that? I am TM initiate #214 in the U.S.A., according to Beaulah Smith, and I meditate regularly in the 'Maharishi Golden Dome of Pure Knowledge', at Radiance, Texas and I can prove it. I've seen a photo of BillyG shaking hands with Charles F. Lutes, and I've seen a leaflet with Barry Wright's picture on it. Kirk posted a graduation photo of himself at MUM.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
I've seen a photo of BillyG shaking hands with Charles F. Lutes, and I've seen a leaflet with Barry Wright's picture on it. Kirk posted a graduation photo of himself at MUM. raunchydog wrote: Vaj...nada. There was this one guy on alt.m.t., Lon P. Stacks, who claimed that he was once running the printer at Livingston Manor. He claimed he printed the 'Orange Book', the one with the Rig Veda Mandala 'X' in it. Judy and I used to wax him real good almost every day of the week. Mike Doughney once posted a photo of Lon, but that's all the proof he could point to. Lon didn't even own a copy of the 'Orange Book'! Yet, he claimed to be the printer. Can you believe that? LOL!!! No one gets results with TM, you all just think you are getting somthing; its all your imagination you moron. - Lon P. Stacks Lon has been involved for many years with the TM movement in the U.S. working with Purusha, Deepak Chopra, and the highest levels. His willingness to make public disclosure and take public action at this time may very well have many TM movement higher ups very nervous. He is personally risking much, including his reputation and longtime relationships, by going public at this time. Read more: Subject: Stacks and Knapp From: Willytex Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: Sun, Oct 29 2000 http://tinyurl.com/cm3bak
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM, authfriend jst...@panix.com wrote: If Vaj really ever was a teacher, he's got some kind of extremely weird cognitive deficit. He's frequently dishonest, but I can't believe he'd be so *stupid* as to think anyone who had ever been involved with TM would fall for the sort of thing he was going on about in this post, so I think he really must believe it himself. He came on to me in private email after doing an extensive search on the 'Net about me. He still does not see how slamming me with the results of his very extensive search was an invasion of privacy and not at all the way to make friends and influence people, which people you're trying to make friends with. He told me enough about himself (revealing nothing, actually) that I was downright confused and remained confused to this day. Suffice it to say that I did not take him up on his offer to talk further.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Curtis wrote: Show me you dome badge buddy!? I've seen no evidence that Curtis has ever been inside a 'Golden Dome of Pure Knowledge', or that he has ever even seen a 'dome badge'. Who are these anonymous posters anyway? We don't take to trollers here much, Curtis. Yeah, let's get some facts straight here. I've seen no evidence that any of the current informants here were ever at TTC, or even a student at MIU or even a *basic* TMer. Do any of you have a 'dome badge', a school transcript, a receipt, canceled check, or anything you can post? You would think that the anonymous posters like Vaj could post *something* to prove their status in the TMO or even tell us their name. Lon P. Stacks claimed he was the MIU 'printer' at the 'Manor' in Livingston. He claimed he printed the 'Orange Book'. Can you believe that? I am TM initiate #214 in the U.S.A., according to Beaulah Smith, and I meditate regularly in the 'Maharishi Golden Dome of Pure Knowledge', at Radiance, Texas and I can prove it. I've seen a photo of BillyG shaking hands with Charles F. Lutes, and I've seen a leaflet with Barry Wright's picture on it. Kirk posted a graduation photo of himself at MUM.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: snip Yet another round of people *who have never practiced any other technique of meditation other than TM* declaring over and over, TM is unique!!! The absurdity of it staggers the imagination. At least Vaj has *practiced* other forms of meditation, and thus has the ability to com- pare them to TM. But WHY BOTHER? What is the point of making such comparisons for people so stupid as to believe that they can declare how unlike any other technique of meditation (and how superior) TM is, *while never having experienced any other techniques*. See, the problem here (as Barry knows) isn't that Vaj doesn't think TM is unique or superior, it's that in making his comparisons, *he isn't describing TM accurately*. Using Barry's crayon analogy, it's as if Vaj were claiming that crayons were inferior to water colors because you can only make pictures in black and white with crayons. Even those who have never made pictures with water colors or any other medium know that crayons produce a wide range of colors. Even Vaj's claim that TM isn't effortless is based on an inaccurate description of TM. I've seen Barry give perfectly accurate descriptions of TM, so there's no question Barry knows Vaj's are inaccurate. So do all the others here who have taught TM or practiced it for a significant period. (Even those who had just learned it would most likely know this, for that matter.) It doesn't matter *how* many other techniques Vaj has studied or for how long. If he can't give an accurate account of what TM is, there's no way he can make valid comparisons.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM, authfriend jst...@panix.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote: Vaj claims to have been a *TM teacher*. Really? Well, Hush my mouth. Has he said anything specific that leads you to believe it's true? He's been very evasive about specifics, but I vaguely recall at one point he did say something about which TTC he was on. I had no basis to question what he claimed, not being a teacher myself, but none of the people here who were teachers challenged him on it. I don't recall whether anyone here actually confirmed it. I've seen former teachers demonstrate that they never really got what TM was, but none in my experience has ever gone off the deep end like Vaj has. You could tell they'd at least been *exposed* to what MMY taught, even if they hadn't gotten it straight. If Vaj really ever was a teacher, he's got some kind of extremely weird cognitive deficit. He's frequently dishonest, but I can't believe he'd be so *stupid* as to think anyone who had ever been involved with TM would fall for the sort of thing he was going on about in this post, so I think he really must believe it himself. I suspect that Vaj was never a TM teacher. That's my intuition. But it could be that he did go to TTC and has studied other approaches to the point that he's had a complete cognitive shift such that he sees all of TM in a different light. Take for example his saying that TM is not effortless, that we don't think effortlessly and don't go back to the mantra effortlessly. I grok that. I ever have a problem understand Maharishi's use of the word intention, which is what we use to shift back to the mantra. I've spent many an hour, many a day, many a year wondering if I'm doing the sidhis right because there's stress flowing out and sometimes I have to intend thinking the sutra harder than other times. I congratulate myself for finally having used intention to get the sutra just suble enough and yeah, now I'm getting results from the sutra. These are very subtle teachings from Maharishi and seeing them from a different viewpoint can change the whole sense of them, IMO. Yes, I've been checked and I've had my research into consciousness checked as well. I am a TM checker.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
if you think any of the TM critics here are trying to learn anything except shore up their defenses against a technique that transcends everything, you truly are dreaming. this is not some high minded exercise in compare and contrast. it is a feeble attempt by those who's egos are in the way, to keep them in the way. nothing more. no one has anything at all to learn from the most vocal TM critics here, except as a cautionary tale. if they were not in conflict over this technique, they would have long ago kept quiet about it, and pursued and shared their own interests. instead we get the same constant and repetitive rants against TM. as one poster recently remarked, don't you guys ever get tired of this dry boring crap? the TM critics here talk chiefly to themselves. Vaj for one has been exposed as a no nothing by any number of people here, and for you for the umpteenth time to hold him up as some sort of meditation expert is not only laughable, it is genuinely pathetic. he knows nothing about TM and makes that clear every time he shares his thoughts on the subject. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willytex@ wrote: So you are thinking that a bunch of people here are interested enough in TM to post regularly concerning their detailed opinions of where Maharishi got it wrong... with no detailed exposure to his system of thought? Do I have that right? That a guy like Vaj who has been posting his POV online for decades didn't at one time have a lot of chips on the golden tables of Seelisberg, but somehow got spontaneously fascinated enough to post on TM forums regularly and in detail refuting the specific practice of TM from his new perspective gained from his years of practice of other techniques? And now he is required to provide more info that could blow his cover on an online forum because he has not been parroting the party line here and dares to use phrases of his own to describe his own perspective of TM and the goals of meditation? The lack of interest in Vaj's perspective I see here, the polemic gamesmanship used to try to discredit him personally rather than address the points he has brought up, reveals an anti-intellectual bias that reminds me of a political machine. I know that he returns fire and I'm sure I'll be deluged with his many online sins for defending him here. But here you have a guy who is wy into meditation and is obviously very sharp, and I don't sense a shred of curiosity about his detailed perspective among the people here who claim to be way into self development? BIG WTF? Did everyone miss the compare and contrast angle in your education? An intellectual resource is being squandered on both sides here. On a forum with people who have done TM for decades, and some who have done it for 15 years or more and then went into other techniques to compare TM to, the best we can produce intellectually is: Show me you dome badge buddy!?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
If Vaj really ever was a teacher, he's got some kind of extremely weird cognitive deficit. He's frequently dishonest, but I can't believe he'd be so *stupid* as to think anyone who had ever been involved with TM would fall for the sort of thing he was going on about in this post, so I think he really must believe it himself. L.Shaddai wrote: He told me enough about himself (revealing nothing, actually) that I was downright confused and remained confused to this day. This character, Vaj, once tried to debate with me about the origins of the TM bija mantras and that they had no connection to the practice of Marshy's teacher, Swami Brahmanand Saraswati. Can you believe that? To connect Sri Vidya to TM is one of the greatest insults possible. - Vaj Read more: Subject: Tantra - Srividyaratnasutras From: Punditster Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: Sat, Aug 20 2005 5:03 pm http://tinyurl.com/cnvjwp While at Jyotirpeeth in the Himalayas, Shankara gathered the verses together, however, due to a certain mishap, he was able to retrieve only the first forty-one, the Anandalahari. To these Shankara added the rest and called it the Soundaryalahari...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote: On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM, authfriend jst...@... wrote: If Vaj really ever was a teacher, he's got some kind of extremely weird cognitive deficit. He's frequently dishonest, but I can't believe he'd be so *stupid* as to think anyone who had ever been involved with TM would fall for the sort of thing he was going on about in this post, so I think he really must believe it himself. He came on to me in private email after doing an extensive search on the 'Net about me. Was that the same email address that you claimed I had sent kiddie porn to? :-) You've been doing OK lately, but if you're about to have another inner child tantrum, can you make this next one a little more believable than the previous ones?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 10:40 AM, TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, I am the eternal l.shad...@... wrote: You've been doing OK lately, but if you're about to have another inner child tantrum, can you make this next one a little more believable than the previous ones? Some family friends taught me something I consider very wise. Revenge is a dish best served cold.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: snip The lack of interest in Vaj's perspective I see here, the polemic gamesmanship used to try to discredit him personally rather than address the points he has brought up, reveals an anti-intellectual bias that reminds me of a political machine. I know that he returns fire and I'm sure I'll be deluged with his many online sins for defending him here. But here you have a guy who is wy into meditation and is obviously very sharp, and I don't sense a shred of curiosity about his detailed perspective among the people here who claim to be way into self development? BIG WTF? Did everyone miss the compare and contrast angle in your education? An intellectual resource is being squandered on both sides here. On a forum with people who have done TM for decades, and some who have done it for 15 years or more and then went into other techniques to compare TM to, the best we can produce intellectually is: Show me you dome badge buddy!? It's disingenuous for you to lump me and raunchydog and ed11 in with Willytex, Curtis. The three of us are making valid points about Vaj's compare and contrast performance here. We're not demanding he show his dome badge. We *are* genuinely and legitimately curious as to how he could ever have been a TM teacher as he claims, and yet come up with the kind of flat-out nonsense that has appeared in his current spate of posts. You can't do a valid compare-and-contrast if you can't give an accurate account of one of the things you're comparing and contrasting. It doesn't matter how many other things you know about or how extensive your knowledge of them is. To go back to Barry's analogy with crayons, if somebody's insisting that crayons are an inferior medium because all they can produce is black and white, the very first question that comes to mind is, Have you ever *used* crayons? Do you even know what they are? And if he then claims he used to *teach* crayon drawing, well, the jaw just drops. *Of course* we'd ask him to come up with some kind of varification of his having been a crayon drawing teacher. How can I be interested in the perspective of someone who thinks crayons produce only black and white, other than as an example of some kind of cognitive pathology? Curtis, it's *you* who isn't addressing the points that have been raised. raunchydog and I have both explicitly addressed the things Vaj has said about TM that simply aren't accurate. He hasn't responded with any kind of clarification, just ad hominem. He's discredited *himself* personally. And you're discrediting yourself by defending him and attacking us.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: But here you have a guy who is wy into meditation and is obviously very sharp, and I don't sense a shred of curiosity about his detailed perspective among the people here who claim to be way into self development? BIG WTF? That may be because of a sense some of us have that there is no sense of curiosity, or interest in learning something new, that lies behind his posts. It's more a blunt, clumsy instrument at the service of a dull, predictable and dispiriting agenda. There is such a thing as the mirror image of a TB. The T!B you might say. There is an old joke I once heard from a German friend of mine about Helmut Kohl and the relentlessly negative press coverage he was attracting at one point in his career: One day Kohl was with some reporters by the shore of a large lake. Frustrated that no matter what he did, the news coverage always had a negative spin, Kohl says to himself 'I'll show them once and for all' - and proceeds to walk across the water. And the headline in the press the next day? - German Chancellor Can't Swim Vajelicious!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote: Vaj, Your superior tone is nothing more than delusions grandeur. You think you know about TM. You don't. By the way when and where did you do TTC? Did you ever teach anyone TM? Where and when was that? If you're a TM teacher, as Judy says you claim, you've seriously fallen off the wagon. Answer straight up or expose yourself as a fraud. In his tireless e f f o r t s against anything releated to TM he has long ago established himself as a fraud. He is even worse than the Turq at lying. Quite a remarkable achievement, don't you think ? He seems to be on his crusade fulltime. I'm sure any fanatical fundamentalist Christian org. would be more than happy to hire him. The more abvious it becomes that we as a human race are rapidly moving into the Age of Enlightenment the louder he is screaming. Out of anguish I suppose, as the energies he represent will have a hard time to find a new vehicle or body, in the forseeable future. His loud screaming now, and the intensity of his hatred is perhaps because he intuitively knows that it will be a very long time indeed when again his voice will be heard. He is representing dying energies.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, enlightened_dawn11 no_re...@... wrote: Vaj is conflicted between letting go with TM and being bound to the same old worthless traditions. that is why he wrestles with TM so, trying to fit it into a box that it doesn't fit in. the Maharishi was not one to resurrect the fools and worthlessness of the past, rather to make a clean, efficient break of all of that, teaching meditation as a dynamic, innocent and effortless practice, with nothing left for the ego to hang onto. Vaj, in his fear and ego will continue to challenge TM for years to come, always in conflict, never able either to just let go. others here feel the same allegiance to ego, not able to see TM for what it simply is, instead forcing it into old categories of mind, and fighting all who disagree; a last outpost for already dead ideas. they see it as rigor, whereas i see it as rigor mortis.:) BINGO !
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: snip Yet another round of people *who have never practiced any other technique of meditation other than TM* declaring over and over, TM is unique!!! The absurdity of it staggers the imagination. At least Vaj has *practiced* other forms of meditation, and thus has the ability to com- pare them to TM. But WHY BOTHER? What is the point of making such comparisons for people so stupid as to believe that they can declare how unlike any other technique of meditation (and how superior) TM is, *while never having experienced any other techniques*. snip I've seen Barry give perfectly accurate descriptions of TM, so there's no question Barry knows Vaj's are inaccurate. So do all the others here who have taught TM or practiced it for a significant period. (Even those who had just learned it would most likely know this, for that matter.) Here's what Barry quoted from Vaj in the post I'm responding to above: This is not like any other thought. The level of mantra repetition where mantra continues continuously like a spontaneous thought actually is ajapa-japa: no effort or smriti, just constant ongoing awareness of mantra 24/7/365. Does anyone here think Barry believes TM isn't effortless because it doesn't involve 24/7/365 ongoing awareness of the mantra? Barry knows that's a complete non sequitur. Yet he's vigorously defending Vaj. Barry started out his post, referring to this discussion: My 'NEXT' button finger is almost worn out this morning. :-) You could *maybe* give him a pass on dishonesty, at least, if he indeed hadn't read any of the posts in the discussion and didn't realize how wildly off Vaj's points were. But he *quoted* one of them.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: Vaj wrote: It's probably time for a TM and mantra meditation FAQ... raunchydog wrote: Vaj, Your superior tone is nothing more than delusions grandeur. You think you know about TM. You don't. By the way when and where did you do TTC? Did you ever teach anyone TM? Where and when was that? If you're a TM teacher, as Judy says you claim, you've seriously fallen off the wagon. Answer straight up or expose yourself as a fraud. Yeah, let's get some facts straight here. I've seen no evidence that any of the current informants here were ever at TTC, or even a student at MIU or even a *basic* TMer. Do any of you have a 'dome badge', a school transcript, a receipt, canceled check, or anything you can post? You would think that the anonymous posters like Vaj could post *something* to prove their status in the TMO or even tell us their name. Lon P. Stacks claimed he was the MIU 'printer' at the 'Manor' in Livingston. He claimed he printed the 'Orange Book'. Can you believe that? I am TM initiate #214 in the U.S.A., according to Beaulah Smith, and I meditate regularly in the 'Maharishi Golden Dome of Pure Knowledge', at Radiance, Texas and I can prove it. Nice, thanks for posting this. I did not know you are one of the Pioneers ! Again and again this Vaj character has prooved that he does not understand the basic principles of TM let alone having practised TM - he just hates it for it's success in the West. Period. Some time ago he was asking here on FFL for where to get a copy of the SBAL because he wanted to study it. A few weeks later he claimed he was a former TM-teacher ! If you pressure him hard enough he will cough up some dates and places knowing very well that noone here thinks he is so important that they will go to the trouble of checking this information. What a joke !
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Show me you dome badge buddy!? Judy wrote: He's discredited *himself* personally. And you're discrediting yourself by defending him and attacking us. So, it's settled then - Vaj and Curtis and Turq are discredited by Judy. But, nobody here has a dome badge they can show. Is there anyone here who has a dome badge?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
I am TM initiate #214 in the U.S.A., according to Beaulah Smith, and I meditate regularly in the 'Maharishi Golden Dome of Pure Knowledge', at Radiance, Texas and I can prove it. Jim wrote: Nice, thanks for posting this. I did not know you are one of the Pioneers ! What is the REAL reason our Judykins quit a.m.t.? It's because of the genius of willytex. Read more: From: Shemp McGurk Subject: The REAL reason Judy quit a.m.t. Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: Wed, Nov 5 2003 http://tinyurl.com/cr23b7
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 29, 2009, at 11:05 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: The lack of interest in Vaj's perspective I see here, the polemic gamesmanship used to try to discredit him personally rather than address the points he has brought up, reveals an anti-intellectual bias that reminds me of a political machine. I know that he returns fire and I'm sure I'll be deluged with his many online sins for defending him here. It hard to argue with cult mindsets. Apparently it wouldn't matter what was said. It's the same feeling you get when you invite Jehovah Witnesses into your home and try to talk about the Bible.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 29, 2009, at 11:20 AM, I am the eternal wrote: On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM, authfriend jst...@panix.com wrote: If Vaj really ever was a teacher, he's got some kind of extremely weird cognitive deficit. He's frequently dishonest, but I can't believe he'd be so *stupid* as to think anyone who had ever been involved with TM would fall for the sort of thing he was going on about in this post, so I think he really must believe it himself. He came on to me in private email after doing an extensive search on the 'Net about me. He still does not see how slamming me with the results of his very extensive search was an invasion of privacy and not at all the way to make friends and influence people, which people you're trying to make friends with. Completely untrue. I slammed you? Hardly. Here I thought we were having a friendly conversation.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 12:34 PM, Vaj vajradh...@earthlink.net wrote: On Mar 29, 2009, at 11:20 AM, I am the eternal wrote: On Sat, Mar 28, 2009 at 10:13 PM, authfriend jst...@panix.com wrote: If Vaj really ever was a teacher, he's got some kind of extremely weird cognitive deficit. He's frequently dishonest, but I can't believe he'd be so *stupid* as to think anyone who had ever been involved with TM would fall for the sort of thing he was going on about in this post, so I think he really must believe it himself. He came on to me in private email after doing an extensive search on the 'Net about me. He still does not see how slamming me with the results of his very extensive search was an invasion of privacy and not at all the way to make friends and influence people, which people you're trying to make friends with. Completely untrue. I slammed you? Hardly. Here I thought we were having a friendly conversation. It's not a friendly conversation when one reveals the result of an extensive search of the 'Net about someone else in a very sensitive area. The material might have been available but I consider the search and revealing the result of the search to be an invasion of privacy. Not the way to have a friendly conversation. So you've gathered everything about me but when I ask about you, tell me you don't reveal about yourself. That you just don't get it speaks volumes about your air of superiority, which is quite evident here on FFL.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Mar 29, 2009, at 11:05 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: The lack of interest in Vaj's perspective I see here, the polemic gamesmanship used to try to discredit him personally rather than address the points he has brought up, reveals an anti-intellectual bias that reminds me of a political machine. I know that he returns fire and I'm sure I'll be deluged with his many online sins for defending him here. It hard to argue with cult mindsets. Apparently it wouldn't matter what was said. Nope, wrong. You're a special case, Vaj. It *does* matter what is said. There have been all *kinds* of discussions here about the nature of TM and effortlessness and so on, between TM supporters and TM critics, in which the TM critics' understanding of what TM involves was never at issue. It's the same feeling you get when you invite Jehovah Witnesses into your home and try to talk about the Bible. One hopes you don't have as cockeyed an understanding of the Bible as you do of TM. If you do, it's no wonder you don't get anywhere with the JWs.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 29, 2009, at 1:42 PM, I am the eternal wrote: It's not a friendly conversation when one reveals the result of an extensive search of the 'Net about someone else in a very sensitive area. The material might have been available but I consider the search and revealing the result of the search to be an invasion of privacy. Not the way to have a friendly conversation. So you've gathered everything about me but when I ask about you, tell me you don't reveal about yourself. No such extensive search of the internet ever took place. I do not recall you ever revealing anything extensive about yourself or requesting any such thing from me. That you just don't get it speaks volumes about your air of superiority, which is quite evident here on FFL. Maybe it's your own inferiority complex? I'm simply speaking the facts of mantra practice as I know it, from experience. If that sounds superior to you then I guess you should ask yourself why? One would hope others could share insight or gain insight from such a conversation.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: Show me you dome badge buddy!? Judy wrote: He's discredited *himself* personally. And you're discrediting yourself by defending him and attacking us. So, it's settled then - Vaj and Curtis and Turq are discredited by Judy. But, nobody here has a dome badge they can show. Is there anyone here who has a dome badge? I have a Purusha-badge and could have a dome-badge anytime if I wanted to, but I'm not in your country and don't need one.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 12:55 PM, nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: Show me you dome badge buddy!? Judy wrote: He's discredited *himself* personally. And you're discrediting yourself by defending him and attacking us. So, it's settled then - Vaj and Curtis and Turq are discredited by Judy. But, nobody here has a dome badge they can show. Is there anyone here who has a dome badge? I have a Purusha-badge and could have a dome-badge anytime if I wanted to, but I'm not in your country and don't need one. No one who hasn't recently been in the Dome has a valid Dome badge. The expiration dates of Dome badges are over the place. You have to be re-admitted to the Dome by DEVCO if you've not recently been in the Dome. You have to go through orientation anew each time.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: Show me you dome badge buddy!? Judy wrote: He's discredited *himself* personally. And you're discrediting yourself by defending him and attacking us. So, it's settled then - Vaj and Curtis and Turq are discredited by Judy. But, nobody here has a dome badge they can show. Is there anyone here who has a dome badge? Got an ancient field badge with no current sticker. -CIC-9, great times back then.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: It doesn't matter *how* many other techniques Vaj has studied or for how long. If he can't give an accurate account of what TM is, there's no way he can make valid comparisons. My point exactly.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: Show me you dome badge buddy!? Judy wrote: He's discredited *himself* personally. And you're discrediting yourself by defending him and attacking us. So, it's settled then - Vaj and Curtis and Turq are discredited by Judy. But, nobody here has a dome badge they can show. Is there anyone here who has a dome badge? I do. Badge number 2266 issued 1/12/97 It says: Maharishi University of Management Super Radiance This badge is the property of the Department for the Development of Consciousness. Please return this badge to the Course Liaison Office. Building 109, when you depart your course or program. If found, please return to: Department for the Development of Consciousness 1601 north Main Street, Fairfield, Iowa 52556 I got my first badge in 1978 when after AEGTC in Southfallsberg, NY I used it for the dome until 1997 when they issued me a new one. Vaj...nada...still a fraud and doesn't know a damn thing about TM.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 1:04 PM, Nelson nelsonriddle2...@yahoo.com wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Richard J. Williams willy...@... wrote: Got an ancient field badge with no current sticker. -CIC-9, great times back then. National Field Badges were never honored in the Dome. I always had to have a new badge made.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Mar 29, 2009, at 11:05 AM, curtisdeltablues wrote: The lack of interest in Vaj's perspective I see here, the polemic gamesmanship used to try to discredit him personally rather than address the points he has brought up, reveals an anti-intellectual bias that reminds me of a political machine. I know that he returns fire and I'm sure I'll be deluged with his many online sins for defending him here. It hard to argue with cult mindsets. Apparently it wouldn't matter what was said. Nope, wrong. You're a special case, Vaj. It *does* matter what is said. There have been all *kinds* of discussions here about the nature of TM and effortlessness and so on, between TM supporters and TM critics, in which the TM critics' understanding of what TM involves was never at issue. It's the same feeling you get when you invite Jehovah Witnesses into your home and try to talk about the Bible. One hopes you don't have as cockeyed an understanding of the Bible as you do of TM. If you do, it's no wonder you don't get anywhere with the JWs. Finally, it all makes sense. Vaj invites Jehovah Witnesses into his home. Why? So he can show off his superior knowledge about the Bible, of course. Now everyone knows that most Jehovah Witnesses have actually read the Bible. Has Vaj? He's not saying but I'm sure he has no problem spouting off bullshit about it. Just like he does about TM.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Sun, Mar 29, 2009 at 4:28 PM, raunchydog raunchy...@yahoo.com wrote: Finally, it all makes sense. Vaj invites Jehovah Witnesses into his home. Why? So he can show off his superior knowledge about the Bible, of course. Now everyone knows that most Jehovah Witnesses have actually read the Bible. Has Vaj? He's not saying but I'm sure he has no problem spouting off bullshit about it. Just like he does about TM. I invite JWs into my home. They ask if I believe that the Bible is the inspired work of God. I say no, I believe the Bhagavad Gita is. I pull out Maharishi-ji's translation and begin reading. The JWs thank me for my time and go to the next house.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradh...@... wrote: On Mar 29, 2009, at 12:36 PM, Richard J. Williams wrote: Show me you dome badge buddy!? Judy wrote: He's discredited *himself* personally. And you're discrediting yourself by defending him and attacking us. So, it's settled then - Vaj and Curtis and Turq are discredited by Judy. But, nobody here has a dome badge they can show. Is there anyone here who has a dome badge? Here's an old picture of me and the Big Reesh on vacation in Canada. He was an excellent student in many ways!: Sounds like someone is a bit 'Jealous!'
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip The lack of interest in Vaj's perspective I see here, the polemic gamesmanship used to try to discredit him personally rather than address the points he has brought up, reveals an anti-intellectual bias that reminds me of a political machine. I know that he returns fire and I'm sure I'll be deluged with his many online sins for defending him here. But here you have a guy who is wy into meditation and is obviously very sharp, and I don't sense a shred of curiosity about his detailed perspective among the people here who claim to be way into self development? BIG WTF? Did everyone miss the compare and contrast angle in your education? An intellectual resource is being squandered on both sides here. On a forum with people who have done TM for decades, and some who have done it for 15 years or more and then went into other techniques to compare TM to, the best we can produce intellectually is: Show me you dome badge buddy!? It's disingenuous for you to lump me and raunchydog and ed11 in with Willytex, Curtis. Let's see, I was responding to Raunchy and Dicky boy directly, why would you feel threatened? The three of us are making valid points about Vaj's compare and contrast performance here. We're not demanding he show his dome badge Both DICK and Raunchy did and that was how I was responding to. . We *are* genuinely and legitimately curious as to how he could ever have been a TM teacher as he claims, and yet come up with the kind of flat-out nonsense that has appeared in his current spate of posts. You didn't understand what I wrote. OK. You can't do a valid compare-and-contrast if you can't give an accurate account of one of the things you're comparing and contrasting. It doesn't matter how many other things you know about or how extensive your knowledge of them is. No one responded to my question about thinking the mantra from a body part as a lack of innocence question. To go back to Barry's analogy with crayons, if somebody's insisting that crayons are an inferior medium because all they can produce is black and white, the very first question that comes to mind is, Have you ever *used* crayons? Do you even know what they are? The idea that a mind like Vaj's didn't have sufficient exposure to TM teaching to be this devoted to TM Websites is absurd. I'll go further, the kind of detailed mind Vaj exhibits, the thoroughness he approaches every topic,indicates that if he was into TM, he took it to its limit to me. And if he then claims he used to *teach* crayon drawing, well, the jaw just drops. *Of course* we'd ask him to come up with some kind of varification of his having been a crayon drawing teacher. He doesn't sound like a TM teacher because he doesn't believe any of the presuppositions of TM. Unlike me, he had gone into this from a completely different angle with he prefers. How can I be interested in the perspective of someone who thinks crayons produce only black and white, other than as an example of some kind of cognitive pathology? Judy you are choosing your own entertainment here as am I. My criticism is bogus from the big picture. But I believe that the people who are representing TM and Maharishi are not sounding like the foremost scientists of consciousness. I think you sound like a political party who must crush any opposition at any cost. I am disappointed that this is what we find so many years after I dropped out. If what Maharishi claimed was true, you should be spinning Vaj's objections like the Harlem Globe Totters. Instead I see bullshit. Curtis, it's *you* who isn't addressing the points that have been raised. Sure I did. Thinking your mantra from a body part is not innocent. Neither of you responded to this valid point. raunchydog and I have both explicitly addressed the things Vaj has said about TM that simply aren't accurate. He hasn't responded with any kind of clarification, just ad hominem. We differ here. He's discredited *himself* personally. And you're discrediting yourself by defending him and attacking us. Yeah, this is pretty much what I expected from the enlightened.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip The lack of interest in Vaj's perspective I see here, the polemic gamesmanship used to try to discredit him personally rather than address the points he has brought up, reveals an anti-intellectual bias that reminds me of a political machine. I know that he returns fire and I'm sure I'll be deluged with his many online sins for defending him here. But here you have a guy who is wy into meditation and is obviously very sharp, and I don't sense a shred of curiosity about his detailed perspective among the people here who claim to be way into self development? BIG WTF? Did everyone miss the compare and contrast angle in your education? An intellectual resource is being squandered on both sides here. On a forum with people who have done TM for decades, and some who have done it for 15 years or more and then went into other techniques to compare TM to, the best we can produce intellectually is: Show me you dome badge buddy!? It's disingenuous for you to lump me and raunchydog and ed11 in with Willytex, Curtis. Let's see, I was responding to Raunchy and Dicky boy directly, why would you feel threatened? The three of us are making valid points about Vaj's compare and contrast performance here. We're not demanding he show his dome badge Both DICK and Raunchy did and that was how I was responding to. . We *are* genuinely and legitimately curious as to how he could ever have been a TM teacher as he claims, and yet come up with the kind of flat-out nonsense that has appeared in his current spate of posts. You didn't understand what I wrote. OK. You can't do a valid compare-and-contrast if you can't give an accurate account of one of the things you're comparing and contrasting. It doesn't matter how many other things you know about or how extensive your knowledge of them is. No one responded to my question about thinking the mantra from a body part as a lack of innocence question. To go back to Barry's analogy with crayons, if somebody's insisting that crayons are an inferior medium because all they can produce is black and white, the very first question that comes to mind is, Have you ever *used* crayons? Do you even know what they are? The idea that a mind like Vaj's didn't have sufficient exposure to TM teaching to be this devoted to TM Websites is absurd. I'll go further, the kind of detailed mind Vaj exhibits, the thoroughness he approaches every topic,indicates that if he was into TM, he took it to its limit to me. Just as you did. nuff said. Lawson
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Very interesting response, one that could open up some new lines of discussion of this topic. I'm going to quote it in full, with some additional questions at the end. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: Just for fun... --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: I don't know why it hasn't occurred to me before, but I'd genuinely like to hear from Barry as to how he viewed the purportedly religious nature of TM when he was with the TMO. He's made it clear how allergic he is to any kind of religious thinking these days, and as his comments to Vaj indicate, he's completely convinced TM is a religion. So was he inclined to religious belief when he was a TM teacher but has since lost that inclination? Or did he feel about religion then the way he feels now, and simply found a way not to let the religious component bother him? Or was he not even *aware* of the religious component at the time? I will answer as honestly as I can, as if Judy really deserved an answer. And I think you all know that I don't believe she does, so this should be viewed as an exercise in compassion for me. :-) (Incapable of responding without snark. How sad. But also hilarious, because it was just a week or so ago that Barry was railing against the very concept of deserving.) It's actually a little hard for me to think back to those days. It's 3-4 decades in the past now, after all. *At the time*, I almost certainly never thought of what I was doing or what I was involved with as a religion. I think I can say that with complete honesty. WHY? Well, partly it was because of the TM Is Not A Religion Religion thing. We were *told* so often and so forcefully that TM was not a religion that I just bought it. Partly it was because I had no *interest* in religion per se, so I wasn't looking for it or a substitute for it in TM, or in the TMO. What I was looking for was a method of self discovery, which I did not and still DO not associate with religion. And most importantly, it was probably because as a TM Teacher I had been taught that the highest goal was to parrot what I had been told EXACTLY, without deviation. And I had been told over and over and over not only that TM is not a religion, I had been told what to say to people who were worried that it WAS a religion. So I did exactly that. I never got off on the puja or on devotion to Maharishi or Guru Dev. For me, that was just mood-making muck I had to wade through to be part of something that *at the time* I believed in enough to teach, full-time. But yes, towards the end of my involvement with the TM movement, I *had* begun to think past these enormous Bullshit Baffles, and had started to have qualms about the stuff I was saying. I remember having been asked by Jerry Jarvis to go to a Christian church in Pacific Palisades to attend an anti-TM rally there. (This was during the TM court case days.) At that meeting I actually stood up and spouted the lines I had been told to spout. And because I was a pretty good speaker at that time, I probably convinced a few people in the audience. But driving home, I realized that *I* was no longer convinced myself. I was just spouting stuff I'd been told to spout. I was being a parrot, without ever thinking seriously about the parrot-talk. This was shortly before my last TM course (Siddhis), and I finally did some thinking there, and began to realize how MUCH of the stuff I'd been spout- ing was bullshit, and that that made me a bull- shitter, not a teacher of self discovery. Shortly after returning from that course I bailed out of the TM movement. I have NEVER been drawn to religion. Still am not. What I was drawn to in TM was the same thing I was drawn to in psychedelics -- an inner journey, an opportunity to *explore* the mind and its mysteries, and to experience different states of consciousness. I did not and still DO not equate that with religion. In fact, I find that the vast majority of religions -- modern and ancient -- strove to *prevent* that kind of inner exploration rather than facilitate it. That is, most religions are anti-mystic. Almost all of them were FOUNDED by mystics, but within a few years or decades of the original mystic's death, dogma creeps into place that says that it was OK for the founder to be a mystic and have these mystical experiences himself, but everyday seekers like you and me can't do it. In fact, if we try, we are often expelled from the religion. Just look at the Catholic Church -- many if not most of the people it now considers saints were persecuted *by the Church* during their lifetimes, because they were having mystical experiences that *they shouldn't have been having*. It was only after they were safely dead that the Church recognized them as saints. They tried to burn St. John of the
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: [Adding back the necessary context:] [Barry wrote:] THAT is the issue I've been seeing in Judy in this thread. The challenges she sees to her cult believership in the TM Is Not A Religion Religion are not JUST intellectual challenges. They are meanspirited challenges, challenges made with evil intent, as a kind of personal attack. Barry does a little more creative thinking so as to miss my point. As I said earlier, it seems to me that the arguments against teaching TM (minus SCI) in schools are so exaggerated and artificial, so fundamentally unreasonable, that there has to be something else behind them, conscious or otherwise. It's not the disagreement per se but the quality of the arguments, their mountain-out-of-a-molehill character. I never said or suggested that Curtis's challenges were mean-spirited. Barry made that up (more creative thinking). I don't believe that. I do think they may be colored by residual resentment of which he's most likely not even aware. Judy, I find this not only insulting, but unworthy of an otherwise excellent conversation about our different POVs on this subject. It is a version of ad hominem and has no place in our discussion. Oh, boo-freaking-hoo. Let me run get my tiny violin. Apparently I really hit a nerve. There's so much that's dishonest and wrong about your tirade here-- including your gross distortions of my arguments at the end--I don't know where to start. So I'm not going to start; I'm going to let you stew in your own juice. You and your pal Barry can just enjoy yourselves crying on each others' shoulders about how horribly I treat you. How perfectly *vile* that anyone should suggest you might have some residual resentment! Goodness knows it *never* shows up in your TM-related posts. The thing is I do feel a mixture of contempt and affection for Maharishi personally. So I can be disrespectful too. I don't see any reason why respect should be expected from someone who has rejected his teaching as thoroughly as Vaj and I have. The thing is there is no other place to express such feelings if not here I am appreciative of your challenges to what I write about him. That always adds some balance and gives me something to think about. My thoughts and feelings about Maharishi are never one dimensional although they might appear so in a specific post.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: Just to follow up, because this is a fun kind of recapitulation for me, I think that one of the things you have to remember about my partici- pation in the TM movement was *when it took place*. Kinda too bad you felt you had to add this, because it's *much* less convincing than the first installment. My last TM course (a six-month course in Switzer- land to learn the Siddhis) was in 1977. Returning from that course I paid lip service to the TMO for a little while, but within a couple of years I was pretty much outa there. That's not quite what you said awhile back. So what was that TM movement environment LIKE, compared to what it is now? This was pre-Chopra. There was no Ayur-veda. This was pre-SV. This was pre-yagyas. This was WAY pre- Rajas and their silly costumes. This was WAY pre- pundits. This was WAY pre-McMeditation outlets in shopping malls. This was WAY pre-Maharishi Phalluses Of Invincibility. This was, in fact, the end of the blissful SIMS period of the TMO. The language used was still that SIMS-speak, substituting scientific-sounding words for the real Hindu words. Lots of talk about the research, zero talk about gods and goddesses, even referred to by their euphemisms as impulses of creative intelligence. The most religious aspects of the TMO *at that time* were, in my opinion: * The puja, of course. The translation of that, and the fact that EVERY SINGLE TEACHER knew that translation, cannot be denied. The issue here is why MMY was so insistent on the puja being performed before instruction in TM, even after it became clear that it was a huge stumbling block legally. It's not clear to me that the motivation was a religious one per se. That might be an interesting discussion in and of itself. * The siddhis, straight out of Patanjali (who was... Duh...a writer within a religious tradition). You made such a good point in your first post about the distinction between self-development and religion, and how religions started out as self- development but then devolved into dogma. Patanjali's tradition, at least as MMY taught it, seems to be one of the few that escaped that fate. Yoga is still largely about self-development. * The reading of Rig Veda and the chanting of Sama Veda after flying. What is NOT religious about being forced to sit there and listen to hour after hour of readings *directly* from the pages of scripture? Hour after hour? When were readings ever *that* long? At least on my TM-Sidhis course, we were told explicitly not to focus on the semantic meanings of the words (this is when the readings were of an English translation) because they weren't important. Nonetheless, we used to giggle at how ridiculous they were, and nobody so much as frowned at us for doing so. Pretty hard to make a religion out of the Ninth and Tenth mandalas anyway. We weren't even following any of the rites they describe. And we never listened to Sama Veda in anything but Sanskrit. * The growing status of the TMO as a cult. This was the period in which Off The Program first was making its appearance, and in which TMers were being denied permission to go to courses because of life- style choices they had made, such as living with their girlfriends outside of marriage, or reading Off The Program books. Look at that last one -- if you are denied the ability to become a TM Teacher *because you read a book by another teacher*, as happened with some frequency back then, what is NOT religious about that? That's an even more conveniently broad definition of religious than the one Curtis uses. * The growing reclusive nature of many TMers. People were beginning to NOT meditate and dive into activity. They were starting, in fact, to *avoid* activity as much as possible, and find ways to stay on rounding courses forever, or to stay in Europe working on staff forever. This was a trend that I saw as contrary to what TM was selling itself as, and not completely healthy. I still feel that way. Rounding is a whole 'nother thing, first of all. Meditate and dive into activity has always been for people who were going about their daily lives with job, family, etc. Second, to suggest that people working on staff were somehow not engaged in activity is pretty ridiculous. When I stayed for some months at the Asbury Park TM facility back in the '90s, the folks on TMO staff there were some of the busiest people I've ever been around. * Outright persecution of dissent. That was the biggest tell for me that the organization had flipped from the SIMS days and was well on its way down the slippery slope towards becoming a full-blown religion. I bailed before it got far enough down that slope to include yagyas and pundits and people in Raja costumes *while claiming it was not a religion*. What inspired me to bail was noticing how people (both TMers and TM
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Sal Sunshine salsunsh...@... wrote: On Mar 26, 2009, at 3:48 AM, TurquoiseB wrote: * The reading of Rig Veda and the chanting of Sama Veda after flying. What is NOT religious about being forced to sit there and listen to hour after hour of readings *directly* from the pages of scripture? According to Judy, if you don't understand Sanskrit and hence have no idea that you're reading a religious text, then it isn't religious. Kind of like, if the president does it, it isn't illegal. With impeccable logic like that, who needs fanatics? BWAHAHAHAHA!! Sal Impeccable Logician Sunshine tells us where it's at. Of course, I never said what she claims. What I said was that if you don't understand the language, it isn't religious *to you*. It would be interesting to hear Sal's rebuttal of that. It would also be absolutely fascinating to hear Sal's logical explanation for why *even her misstatement of what I said* bears any resemblance whatsoever to Nixon's statement. We're so lucky to have Sal to pass judgment for us on the quality of logic in the discussions here.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
So no, Judy, I've never been religious. And yes, I have always viewed most religion as the *anti- thesis* of self discovery. Still do. Judy wrote: But you now believe that TM is a religion, not a means of self-discovery? Because it seems that for a few years, at least, you were having the experience of self-discovery as a result of the practice... Subject: Re: Barry Wright Uncle Tantra Trashing Rama Dr. Frederick Lenz - An analysis Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental, alt.dreams.castaneda, alt.buddha.short.fat.guy From: Ned Ludd Date: Thurs, May 8 2003 http://tinyurl.com/dkj2l3 The guy posting as Garuda (real name James Forgy) obviously has an issue with me, based on a cyberdiscussion we had literally months ago on a non-Usenet forum. James is basically a nice guy, but he tends to lash out when his beliefs are threatened, and my writings pushed his buttons. So now, months later, not having heard anything from him in the interim, this post shows up, crossposted to 2 newsgroups I currently write to, and to a.b.s.f.g., where I haven't set foot for years. How you guys and gals doin'? Fine. Who's the next Zen Master Rama?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So no, Judy, I've never been religious. And yes, I have always viewed most religion as the *anti- thesis* of self discovery. Still do. Total agreement. If I could follow up: But you now believe that TM is a religion, not a means of self-discovery? I believe that many in the TM movement have turned basic TM into a religion, one that has something but not everything to do with its origins *as* a religious technique. I believe that the environment of the *TMO* is very definitely religious in nature currently, and is actively seeking to hide that. Because it seems that for a few years, at least, you were having the experience of self-discovery as a result of the practice. I was pursuing my own self discovery while practicing the TM technique. I am not con- vinced that all of the discovery happened as a result of that practice. In fact, I think that a lot of it just happened, similar to the way that shit just happens. *At the time*, I would have credited TM for those experiences; now I would not and do not. I am trying to be as precise as I possibly can here. What if you had learned TM and continued to meditate but never became a TM teacher or went any further with the techniques or teachings? Would you ever have come to be uncomfortable with the practice because you felt it was religious? If I had never become a TM teacher, I am fairly confident that I would have given up on the TM technique at the five-year mark. One of my reasons for attending TM Teacher Training was to either jumpstart the tech- nique such that I began perceived sufficient benefits from TM to continue practicing it, or quit altogether. The jumpstart worked, for a number of years, but then when I no longer perceived sufficient benefit, I quit. I did NOT stop TM because I thought it was religious. I stopped primarly because as far as I could tell it was doing nothing to further my self discovery. Secondarily, I guit because as a TM teacher I was being asked to lie and do other things on a regular basis that I found to be con- trary to my own ethics and repulsive to my values. Thirdly, I quit because the TM movement was clearly going in a direction I did not want to go -- towards becoming more of a cult, and away from openness and transparency. The question of whether that direction was in the direction of becoming more of a religion would not and did not occur to me. It was just no longer an organization I wanted to be associated with. If you had stuck with basic TM but then read the translation of the puja years later and been told the mantras were the names of Hindu deities, would that have soured you on the practice? No. Not me personally. It would have soured some friends who *started* from a fairly religious background; I did not. At the time, all I would have cared about was that it seemed to work. I now see that seeming to work period as more of a *contrast* between my life up till then, practicing no form of meditation reg- ularly, and then practicing *some* form of meditation regularly. *Of course* I felt some benefits at the start. When I stopped feeling those benefits, I moved on and found other techniques from which the sense of them working and providing continuing benefits did not fade and has not faded in any of the years since. Would it have become less about self-discovery for you? No. It would have been irrelevant. But it would not have been irrelevant to, say, the former Catholic priest who shared a trailer with me at Humboldt. If the origin and the nature of the mantras had not been hidden from him, he would never have begun TM. Some months later, he *did* learn about those origins, and dropped TM like a hot potato. He also felt betrayed and lied to. That's because IMO he *was* betrayed and lied to, by people like yourself who were trying to protect him from knowledge he didn't need to know. You say, The vast majority of religions -- modern and ancient -- strove to *prevent* that kind of inner exploration rather than facilitate it. Would it be fair to say Hinduism is one of the minority of religions that still strives to facilitate inner exploration? Absolutely not, not in my opinion. Mainstream Hinduism *in India* probably attempts to limit and prevent the mystical experience as much as the Catholic Church does, and stresses faith more than anything else. But many of the off- spring of Indian Hinduism, transplanted to the West, found that Westerners were more interested in inner exploration than they were in faith, and so it became more of the focus of their teachings. Westerners had -- in the 50s and 60s -- Had It Up To Here with faith. They didn't WANT any organization or teaching that required them to have faith. They wanted EXPERIENCE. That, IMO, was one of the reasons for the psychedelic
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John M. Knapp, LMSW jmknap...@... wrote: Hi, Judy, I don't object only on the basis of the puja. I'm not sure how you got that idea. I'm not sure how you got the idea that I suggested the puja was the only basis for your objection. *You* brought up the New Jersey court case; that's what I was discussing. It cited the puja and the content of SCI as the determinative elements of the ruling. Since SCI is not being taught in the Lynch project, that would seem to leave the puja as the sole element to which the courts might object, at least following the NJ case precedent. One of my points was that the puja objection in that ruling was a pretty significant stretch, at least partly based on ignorance. In any case, unless you bring suit yourself, it won't be *your* basis for objecting to the project that is taken into consideration, so what you believe is a non sequitur in this context. The propensity of the late Maharishi's teaching was religious in nature -- based on the Vedas, as he claimed, which are one of humanity's great religious texts. Well, actually, in terms of what is taught in the basic TM course, it's based on the self-development aspects of the teachings of Patanjali (yoga) and the philosophy of Shankara (Advaita Vedanta). Advaita Vedanta, incidentally, is said by some to be an *atheistic* philosophy. And there ain't a whole lot of religion in Patanjali. While they will not be teaching the full TM program in the schools, they do talk on DLF's site about TM program activities, which I imagine would include information on advanced techniques, courses, etc. I think it may be premature to imagine this. (I would not be in favor of dispensing such information within the schools.) But even they don't have the kids doing yagyas to Ganesh or Lakshmi, I can't imagine how they would separate the religious content of TM from the secular content. As Curtis has pointed out, all new initiates are exposed to religious concepts within the 3-Days Checking. That depends on (a) your definition of religious and (b) how you understand those concepts. The concepts certainly aren't *overtly* religious. They're more metaphysical and self-developmental theories, a form of the philosophy of Idealism, which can have either a religious or a secular context. The basic TM course presents the concepts in a secular context. I wouldn't be comfortable with a Christian cleric, such as Thomas Keating, teaching Centering Prayer in the schools. The teaching is intertwined with religious concepts. According to Basil Pennington (one of the three main proponents of Centering Prayer along with Keating and William Meninger), it consists of these steps: 1. Sit comfortably with your eyes closed, relax, and quiet yourself. Be in love and faith to God. 2. Choose a sacred word that best supports your sincere intention to be in the Lord's presence and open to His divine action within you (i.e. Jesus, Lord, God, Savior, Abba, Divine, Shalom, Spirit, Love, etc.). 3. Let that word be gently present as your symbol of your sincere intention to be in the Lord's presence and open to His divine action within you. 4. Whenever you become aware of anything (thoughts, feelings, perceptions, images, associations, etc.), simply return to your sacred word, your anchor. (M. Basil Pennington (1986), Centering Prayer: Refining the Rules, Review for Religious, 46:3, 386-393.) I can't see how they could be separated from a secular form of the technique. Indeed. But it's at least as hard to see how Centering Prayer could be considered equivalent in that regard to what's taught in the basic TM course. Interestingly (as I'm sure you know), Pennington was for some years a TM teacher. He more or less ripped off the TM technique and adapted it to an explicitly religious context, as is obvious from his description above.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: Interestingly (as I'm sure you know), Pennington was for some years a TM teacher. He more or less ripped off the TM technique and adapted it to an explicitly religious context, as is obvious from his description above. I'm pretty sure you are confusing him with Paul Marechal who was an M initiator. Basil was never a teacher, he was a full time Cistertian monk in Spencer Mass who learned TM. As a scholar in Christian mysticism he was an expert in the teachings of the Jesus prayer. 4. Whenever you become aware of anything (thoughts, feelings, perceptions, images, associations, etc.), simply return to your sacred word, your anchor. That is quite a paraphrase and might must as well have come from his translations of the mystic's texts. He was one of the world's most recognized scholars of the early Christian mystic's writings. Although Maharishi promotes the idea of coming back to the mantra was his unique contribution, I'm not sure a broader study of the source documents would support this. But Basil's brief TM practice might have influenced his interpretation so perhaps Maharishi does deserve credit for this insight. In any case he was not promoting a simple technique to experience the Hindu Atman, he was using his prayer to connect to God through Christ. He would happily talk your ear off about the distinctions if you gave him a chance. The subtle distinctions he made between the practices illuminate his theological objections to the Hindu based TM technique which he felt was a contradiction to the goals of Christian mystical prayer in the Hindu biased form Maharishi taught it. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John M. Knapp, LMSW jmknapp53@ wrote: Hi, Judy, I don't object only on the basis of the puja. I'm not sure how you got that idea. I'm not sure how you got the idea that I suggested the puja was the only basis for your objection. *You* brought up the New Jersey court case; that's what I was discussing. It cited the puja and the content of SCI as the determinative elements of the ruling. Since SCI is not being taught in the Lynch project, that would seem to leave the puja as the sole element to which the courts might object, at least following the NJ case precedent. One of my points was that the puja objection in that ruling was a pretty significant stretch, at least partly based on ignorance. In any case, unless you bring suit yourself, it won't be *your* basis for objecting to the project that is taken into consideration, so what you believe is a non sequitur in this context. The propensity of the late Maharishi's teaching was religious in nature -- based on the Vedas, as he claimed, which are one of humanity's great religious texts. Well, actually, in terms of what is taught in the basic TM course, it's based on the self-development aspects of the teachings of Patanjali (yoga) and the philosophy of Shankara (Advaita Vedanta). Advaita Vedanta, incidentally, is said by some to be an *atheistic* philosophy. And there ain't a whole lot of religion in Patanjali. While they will not be teaching the full TM program in the schools, they do talk on DLF's site about TM program activities, which I imagine would include information on advanced techniques, courses, etc. I think it may be premature to imagine this. (I would not be in favor of dispensing such information within the schools.) But even they don't have the kids doing yagyas to Ganesh or Lakshmi, I can't imagine how they would separate the religious content of TM from the secular content. As Curtis has pointed out, all new initiates are exposed to religious concepts within the 3-Days Checking. That depends on (a) your definition of religious and (b) how you understand those concepts. The concepts certainly aren't *overtly* religious. They're more metaphysical and self-developmental theories, a form of the philosophy of Idealism, which can have either a religious or a secular context. The basic TM course presents the concepts in a secular context. I wouldn't be comfortable with a Christian cleric, such as Thomas Keating, teaching Centering Prayer in the schools. The teaching is intertwined with religious concepts. According to Basil Pennington (one of the three main proponents of Centering Prayer along with Keating and William Meninger), it consists of these steps: 1. Sit comfortably with your eyes closed, relax, and quiet yourself. Be in love and faith to God. 2. Choose a sacred word that best supports your sincere intention to be in the Lord's presence and open to His divine action within you (i.e. Jesus, Lord, God, Savior, Abba, Divine, Shalom, Spirit, Love, etc.). 3. Let that word be gently present as your symbol of your sincere intention to be in the Lord's presence and open to His divine
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Interestingly (as I'm sure you know), Pennington was for some years a TM teacher. He more or less ripped off the TM technique and adapted it to an explicitly religious context, as is obvious from his description above. I'm pretty sure you are confusing him with Paul Marechal who was an M initiator. Basil was never a teacher, he was a full time Cistertian monk in Spencer Mass who learned TM. OK. Somewhere I read that he was a TM teacher. 4. Whenever you become aware of anything (thoughts, feelings, perceptions, images, associations, etc.), simply return to your sacred word, your anchor. That is quite a paraphrase and might must as well have come from his translations of the mystic's texts. He was one of the world's most recognized scholars of the early Christian mystic's writings. Not sure what you're suggesting here; paraphrase of what? The above is quoted from a paper written by Pennington, which I cited in my post. In any case, my point was that teaching Centering Prayer, at least as Pennington describes it, is not a valid parallel to teaching TM in schools with regard to religious content. Knapp was suggesting that if you didn't think the former was appropriate, you shouldn't think the latter is either.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: 4. Whenever you become aware of anything (thoughts, feelings, perceptions, images, associations, etc.), simply return to your sacred word, your anchor. That is quite a paraphrase and might must as well have come from his translations of the mystic's texts. He was one of the world's most recognized scholars of the early Christian mystic's writings. Not sure what you're suggesting here; paraphrase of what? The above is quoted from a paper written by Pennington, which I cited in my post. Paraphrase of the TM technique teaching phrases. As a spiritual eclectic it wouldn't surprise me that he had incorporated some of Maharishi's POV into his practice. But I suspect he would argue that it was already in the instructions he was translating from the Desert Father's Hesychastic tradition of prayer and meditation. In any case, my point was that teaching Centering Prayer, at least as Pennington describes it, is not a valid parallel to teaching TM in schools with regard to religious content. Knapp was suggesting that if you didn't think the former was appropriate, you shouldn't think the latter is either. I know we have already covered this ad nauseam but this would basically invalidate the TM practice in India. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Interestingly (as I'm sure you know), Pennington was for some years a TM teacher. He more or less ripped off the TM technique and adapted it to an explicitly religious context, as is obvious from his description above. I'm pretty sure you are confusing him with Paul Marechal who was an M initiator. Basil was never a teacher, he was a full time Cistertian monk in Spencer Mass who learned TM. OK. Somewhere I read that he was a TM teacher. 4. Whenever you become aware of anything (thoughts, feelings, perceptions, images, associations, etc.), simply return to your sacred word, your anchor. That is quite a paraphrase and might must as well have come from his translations of the mystic's texts. He was one of the world's most recognized scholars of the early Christian mystic's writings. Not sure what you're suggesting here; paraphrase of what? The above is quoted from a paper written by Pennington, which I cited in my post. In any case, my point was that teaching Centering Prayer, at least as Pennington describes it, is not a valid parallel to teaching TM in schools with regard to religious content. Knapp was suggesting that if you didn't think the former was appropriate, you shouldn't think the latter is either.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Thanks for the response. Comments below. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip Would it have become less about self-discovery for you? No. It would have been irrelevant. But it would not have been irrelevant to, say, the former Catholic priest who shared a trailer with me at Humboldt. (This was what, a rounding course? TTC? Neither?) If the origin and the nature of the mantras had not been hidden from him, he would never have begun TM. Some months later, he *did* learn about those origins, and dropped TM like a hot potato. He also felt betrayed and lied to. That's because IMO he *was* betrayed and lied to, by people like yourself who were trying to protect him from knowledge he didn't need to know. See, here's my problem. If a former priest could go this far--to the extent of attending a residential course taught by MMY--without having any suspicion that there was anything religious about it, *how religious could what he was being taught have been*? And he was getting a lot more of the SCI-type stuff than Lynch's kids will. What exactly *did* he later learn about the mantras and their origins? Was he told they were the names of Hindu gods? Or just that Hindus associated them with gods? Did he do any research into the origins of the bija mantras? Did he come to believe he had been invoking actual supernatural beings? This kind of thing just makes no sense to me. It seems to me that the outrage is a function of getting only *part* of the picture beyond what you get in the basic TM course. (And not incidentally, there has been *at least* as much deception from those seeking to paint TM as Hinduism as there has been from the TMO seeking to paint it as secular, and on the basis of a far less admirable motivation. Of course, that gets into the issue of whether ends ever justify means, but I don't believe there's an absolute answer to that.) I don't have any particular comment on most of the rest of what you write, although I do disagree with the baby steps characterization. But that's a different issue. One final point: So, bottom line, the issue of whether TM or the TMO were a religion had nothing to do with *MY* walking away from TM. But that issue was and will continue to be important to those who feel a loyalty to a particular religion, and later find that information was hidden from them that caused them to (in their own eyes) violate the tenets of that religion. That is essentially what you have been advo- cating lately. What I would like above all would be for folks to have the *complete* picture. It wouldn't satisfy the fundamentalist types, of course, but I'd be willing to bet that a good portion of the more reasonable folks, including many nonfundamentalist religionists, would realize the Hindu origins bit is just not significant. But there's *no way* people can ever have the complete picture without really getting into it, including plenty of experience of the technique. In between virtually no information about TM's origins and context and full information, there's a big swath of *partial* information that is essentially misleading. If one thinks practice of the TM technique is highly beneficial for most people, and conveying full information isn't a practical option, what does one do?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
On Mar 28, 2009, at 12:00 PM, curtisdeltablues wrote: Although Maharishi promotes the idea of coming back to the mantra was his unique contribution, I'm not sure a broader study of the source documents would support this. If he indeed made that claim, it's and out and out lie. Another one. But then again, most of us back then knew no better--we actually believed it, at least for a while. So, in brief, it was not his unique contribution, but traditional in many forms of meditation practice, not just mantra repetition. It precedes TM by thusands and thousands of years. The problem with TM is that it's a canned form of mantra practice, rather than allowing different styles of repetition for different types of people, the way it really should be. After all, we're all different!
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Outsiders have no clue what TM means let alone the infinite amount of meditations available. Take a poll of 'meditators' (including Yoga people), and they have 0 interest! --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, authfriend jst...@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So no, Judy, I've never been religious. And yes, I have always viewed most religion as the *anti- thesis* of self discovery. Still do. Total agreement. If I could follow up: But you now believe that TM is a religion, not a means of self-discovery? I believe that many in the TM movement have turned basic TM into a religion, one that has something but not everything to do with its origins *as* a religious technique. I believe that the environment of the *TMO* is very definitely religious in nature currently, and is actively seeking to hide that. Because it seems that for a few years, at least, you were having the experience of self-discovery as a result of the practice. I was pursuing my own self discovery while practicing the TM technique. I am not con- vinced that all of the discovery happened as a result of that practice. In fact, I think that a lot of it just happened, similar to the way that shit just happens. *At the time*, I would have credited TM for those experiences; now I would not and do not. I am trying to be as precise as I possibly can here. What if you had learned TM and continued to meditate but never became a TM teacher or went any further with the techniques or teachings? Would you ever have come to be uncomfortable with the practice because you felt it was religious? If I had never become a TM teacher, I am fairly confident that I would have given up on the TM technique at the five-year mark. One of my reasons for attending TM Teacher Training was to either jumpstart the tech- nique such that I began perceived sufficient benefits from TM to continue practicing it, or quit altogether. The jumpstart worked, for a number of years, but then when I no longer perceived sufficient benefit, I quit. I did NOT stop TM because I thought it was religious. I stopped primarly because as far as I could tell it was doing nothing to further my self discovery. Secondarily, I guit because as a TM teacher I was being asked to lie and do other things on a regular basis that I found to be con- trary to my own ethics and repulsive to my values. Thirdly, I quit because the TM movement was clearly going in a direction I did not want to go -- towards becoming more of a cult, and away from openness and transparency. The question of whether that direction was in the direction of becoming more of a religion would not and did not occur to me. It was just no longer an organization I wanted to be associated with. If you had stuck with basic TM but then read the translation of the puja years later and been told the mantras were the names of Hindu deities, would that have soured you on the practice? No. Not me personally. It would have soured some friends who *started* from a fairly religious background; I did not. At the time, all I would have cared about was that it seemed to work. I now see that seeming to work period as more of a *contrast* between my life up till then, practicing no form of meditation reg- ularly, and then practicing *some* form of meditation regularly. *Of course* I felt some benefits at the start. When I stopped feeling those benefits, I moved on and found other techniques from which the sense of them working and providing continuing benefits did not fade and has not faded in any of the years since. Would it have become less about self-discovery for you? No. It would have been irrelevant. But it would not have been irrelevant to, say, the former Catholic priest who shared a trailer with me at Humboldt. If the origin and the nature of the mantras had not been hidden from him, he would never have begun TM. Some months later, he *did* learn about those origins, and dropped TM like a hot potato. He also felt betrayed and lied to. That's because IMO he *was* betrayed and lied to, by people like yourself who were trying to protect him from knowledge he didn't need to know. You say, The vast majority of religions -- modern and ancient -- strove to *prevent* that kind of inner exploration rather than facilitate it. Would it be fair to say Hinduism is one of the minority of religions that still strives to facilitate inner exploration? Absolutely not, not in my opinion. Mainstream Hinduism *in India* probably attempts to limit and prevent the mystical experience as much as the Catholic Church does, and stresses faith more than anything else. But many of the off- spring of Indian Hinduism, transplanted to the West, found that Westerners were more
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: Thanks for the response. Comments below. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip Would it have become less about self-discovery for you? No. It would have been irrelevant. But it would not have been irrelevant to, say, the former Catholic priest who shared a trailer with me at Humboldt. (This was what, a rounding course? TTC? Neither?) That would have been one of the big summer month-long residence courses before I became a TM teacher, probably in 1970 or 1971 or thereabouts. (I have a really shitty memory for year dates. I tend to remember time by the album that was popular at the time.) If the origin and the nature of the mantras had not been hidden from him, he would never have begun TM. Some months later, he *did* learn about those origins, and dropped TM like a hot potato. He also felt betrayed and lied to. That's because IMO he *was* betrayed and lied to, by people like yourself who were trying to protect him from knowledge he didn't need to know. See, here's my problem. If a former priest could go this far--to the extent of attending a residential course taught by MMY--without having any suspicion that there was anything religious about it, *how religious could what he was being taught have been*? He was a *former* priest, searching for fulfillment in meditation what he never found in the Church. He bought the TMO's not religious line hook, line, and sinker. Although an apostate from the priesthood, he was nonetheless strongly Catholic. And he was getting a lot more of the SCI-type stuff than Lynch's kids will. That is *NOT* a given. You seem to be one of the only people on this forum who actually believes it. What exactly *did* he later learn about the mantras and their origins? Was he told they were the names of Hindu gods? Or just that Hindus associated them with gods? The latter. And then he saw the translation of the puja, in which *his TM teacher* had bowed down to those same gods, and asked him to do so, too. And he did. He wouldn't have, if he had known what he was bowing down to. Did he do any research into the origins of the bija mantras? Did he come to believe he had been invoking actual supernatural beings? I don't know. He wrote to me expressing his disappointment in having been lied to so thoroughly by his own TM teacher, who I knew. I agreed with him in a return letter, but I never heard back. This kind of thing just makes no sense to me. That is probably because, like me, you never felt strongly enough about any religion to be upset if you had been tricked into violating its commandments. It seems to me that the outrage is a function of getting only *part* of the picture beyond what you get in the basic TM course. The outrage in this case was at having been tricked into getting down on his knees and bowing to Hindu gods. That would not *bother* you. It would not bother *me*. It does not bother me still. I am making the case for those who *would* be bothered by it. They have the right to know what they are being asked to kneel to. Now, since I have been indulging your ques- tions, please indulge one of mine. Would you have any objections to attendees at the up- coming McCartney concert being handed a flyer containing only the English translation of the TM puja -- no commentary, only a sim- ple explanation that this was a translation of the ceremony their kids would be witnessing and asked at the end to participate in by kneeling down -- as they went into the concert? And if you *would* have objections, why?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Arhata Osho arhatafreespe...@... wrote: Outsiders have no clue what TM means let alone the infinite amount of meditations available. Take a poll of 'meditators' (including Yoga people), and they have 0 interest! But if they forked over $2,500 they could get the HIGHEST teaching! You must convince them that whatever they are doing is only a relative benefit and lacks the mega mojo of full blown TM mantra meditation. If you can't get them to fork over the cash please at least see if you can get them to feel badly about their own practice. Maharishi will bless you for this. (By bless I mean ignore which is how he blessed the rest of us.) --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So no, Judy, I've never been religious. And yes, I have always viewed most religion as the *anti- thesis* of self discovery. Still do. Total agreement. If I could follow up: But you now believe that TM is a religion, not a means of self-discovery? I believe that many in the TM movement have turned basic TM into a religion, one that has something but not everything to do with its origins *as* a religious technique. I believe that the environment of the *TMO* is very definitely religious in nature currently, and is actively seeking to hide that. Because it seems that for a few years, at least, you were having the experience of self-discovery as a result of the practice. I was pursuing my own self discovery while practicing the TM technique. I am not con- vinced that all of the discovery happened as a result of that practice. In fact, I think that a lot of it just happened, similar to the way that shit just happens. *At the time*, I would have credited TM for those experiences; now I would not and do not. I am trying to be as precise as I possibly can here. What if you had learned TM and continued to meditate but never became a TM teacher or went any further with the techniques or teachings? Would you ever have come to be uncomfortable with the practice because you felt it was religious? If I had never become a TM teacher, I am fairly confident that I would have given up on the TM technique at the five-year mark. One of my reasons for attending TM Teacher Training was to either jumpstart the tech- nique such that I began perceived sufficient benefits from TM to continue practicing it, or quit altogether. The jumpstart worked, for a number of years, but then when I no longer perceived sufficient benefit, I quit. I did NOT stop TM because I thought it was religious. I stopped primarly because as far as I could tell it was doing nothing to further my self discovery. Secondarily, I guit because as a TM teacher I was being asked to lie and do other things on a regular basis that I found to be con- trary to my own ethics and repulsive to my values. Thirdly, I quit because the TM movement was clearly going in a direction I did not want to go -- towards becoming more of a cult, and away from openness and transparency. The question of whether that direction was in the direction of becoming more of a religion would not and did not occur to me. It was just no longer an organization I wanted to be associated with. If you had stuck with basic TM but then read the translation of the puja years later and been told the mantras were the names of Hindu deities, would that have soured you on the practice? No. Not me personally. It would have soured some friends who *started* from a fairly religious background; I did not. At the time, all I would have cared about was that it seemed to work. I now see that seeming to work period as more of a *contrast* between my life up till then, practicing no form of meditation reg- ularly, and then practicing *some* form of meditation regularly. *Of course* I felt some benefits at the start. When I stopped feeling those benefits, I moved on and found other techniques from which the sense of them working and providing continuing benefits did not fade and has not faded in any of the years since. Would it have become less about self-discovery for you? No. It would have been irrelevant. But it would not have been irrelevant to, say, the former Catholic priest who shared a trailer with me at Humboldt. If the origin and the nature of the mantras had not been hidden from him, he would never have begun TM. Some months later, he *did* learn about those origins, and dropped TM like a hot potato. He also felt betrayed and
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: But there's *no way* people can ever have the complete picture without really getting into it, including plenty of experience of the technique. In between virtually no information about TM's origins and context and full information, there's a big swath of *partial* information that is essentially misleading. If one thinks practice of the TM technique is highly beneficial for most people, and conveying full information isn't a practical option, what does one do? I think you are confusing the ability to present a more complete picture of the TM practice with the ability to control how people view and react to this information. TM could just as easily be taught in the same honest way many other meditations are taught. For many, the religious roots would be a charming plus and for super religious people, who probably wouldn't star anyway, it might be a negitive. Others couldn't care less where it comes from or what it means ot a Hindu if it works. But there is a persistent cognitive dissonance created by Maharishi's attempt to have it both ways. He was being a bit slick, and got away with it for the most part with a less informed public. But now with the cat pretty much out of the bag with Hindu pujas to Hindu gods being performed in movement facilities, it might be time for a presentation with more integrity. The history of TM has quite a bit of charm even for crusty atheists like me. But being too slick doesn't fly and most educated people can smell a rat here. It has hurt the movement's credibility IMO. What Maharishi got with his sanitized presentation was a big fad boom of meditators who mostly all stopped. The core people were down with his religious roots or had contextualized it the way you have. SRM was the most honest presentation of his teaching IMO and going back to that angle seems a lot more honest. Then let the chips fall where they may because if people don't want a religious practice they shouldn't be slipped one. As far as TM being a wide spread beneficial practice I believe we have conducted this experiment and the numbers are in. People who don't get into the philosophy and belief system don't continue TM. Thanks for the response. Comments below. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip Would it have become less about self-discovery for you? No. It would have been irrelevant. But it would not have been irrelevant to, say, the former Catholic priest who shared a trailer with me at Humboldt. (This was what, a rounding course? TTC? Neither?) If the origin and the nature of the mantras had not been hidden from him, he would never have begun TM. Some months later, he *did* learn about those origins, and dropped TM like a hot potato. He also felt betrayed and lied to. That's because IMO he *was* betrayed and lied to, by people like yourself who were trying to protect him from knowledge he didn't need to know. See, here's my problem. If a former priest could go this far--to the extent of attending a residential course taught by MMY--without having any suspicion that there was anything religious about it, *how religious could what he was being taught have been*? And he was getting a lot more of the SCI-type stuff than Lynch's kids will. What exactly *did* he later learn about the mantras and their origins? Was he told they were the names of Hindu gods? Or just that Hindus associated them with gods? Did he do any research into the origins of the bija mantras? Did he come to believe he had been invoking actual supernatural beings? This kind of thing just makes no sense to me. It seems to me that the outrage is a function of getting only *part* of the picture beyond what you get in the basic TM course. (And not incidentally, there has been *at least* as much deception from those seeking to paint TM as Hinduism as there has been from the TMO seeking to paint it as secular, and on the basis of a far less admirable motivation. Of course, that gets into the issue of whether ends ever justify means, but I don't believe there's an absolute answer to that.) I don't have any particular comment on most of the rest of what you write, although I do disagree with the baby steps characterization. But that's a different issue. One final point: So, bottom line, the issue of whether TM or the TMO were a religion had nothing to do with *MY* walking away from TM. But that issue was and will continue to be important to those who feel a loyalty to a particular religion, and later find that information was hidden from them that caused them to (in their own eyes) violate the tenets of that religion. That is essentially what you have been advo- cating lately. What I would
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Arhata Osho arhatafreespeech@ wrote: Outsiders have no clue what TM means let alone the infinite amount of meditations available. Take a poll of 'meditators' (including Yoga people), and they have 0 interest! But if they forked over $2,500 they could get the HIGHEST teaching! You must convince them that whatever they are doing is only a relative benefit and lacks the mega mojo of full blown TM mantra meditation. If you can't get them to fork over the cash please at least see if you can get them to feel badly about their own practice. Maharishi will bless you for this. (By bless I mean ignore which is how he blessed the rest of us.) (No residual resentment on Curtis's part, nosireebob.)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: But there's *no way* people can ever have the complete picture without really getting into it, including plenty of experience of the technique. In between virtually no information about TM's origins and context and full information, there's a big swath of *partial* information that is essentially misleading. If one thinks practice of the TM technique is highly beneficial for most people, and conveying full information isn't a practical option, what does one do? I think you are confusing the ability to present a more complete picture of the TM practice with the ability to control how people view and react to this information. Bingo!!! That's exactly it. As far as I can tell, Judy is convinced that there is a proper or authoritative or correct complete picture of TM practice. Coincidentally enough, it happens to be her view. TM could just as easily be taught in the same honest way many other meditations are taught. Bingo again.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: As far as TM being a wide spread beneficial practice I believe we have conducted this experiment and the numbers are in. People who don't get into the philosophy and belief system don't continue TM. Perhaps. But I can't believe the likes of Sharyl Crowe, Eddy Vedder and Howard Stern (much less Rush Limbagh) got into the philosophy of TM. I sense they silently did it because they liked it. It made them clearer and more heart felt. You don't need a philosophy to enjoy that. I would cast your words a bit differently. I believe we have conducted this experiment and the numbers are in. People who don't get into the philosophy and belief system don't become fanatics. Fanatics who become dye in the wool true-believers or fanatic redeemers who feel the crusade inside to protect others from this philosophy. Others, in the bliss of innocence, just do it. Without fanfare. Thanks for the response. Comments below. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip Would it have become less about self-discovery for you? No. It would have been irrelevant. But it would not have been irrelevant to, say, the former Catholic priest who shared a trailer with me at Humboldt. (This was what, a rounding course? TTC? Neither?) If the origin and the nature of the mantras had not been hidden from him, he would never have begun TM. Some months later, he *did* learn about those origins, and dropped TM like a hot potato. He also felt betrayed and lied to. That's because IMO he *was* betrayed and lied to, by people like yourself who were trying to protect him from knowledge he didn't need to know. See, here's my problem. If a former priest could go this far--to the extent of attending a residential course taught by MMY--without having any suspicion that there was anything religious about it, *how religious could what he was being taught have been*? And he was getting a lot more of the SCI-type stuff than Lynch's kids will. What exactly *did* he later learn about the mantras and their origins? Was he told they were the names of Hindu gods? Or just that Hindus associated them with gods? Did he do any research into the origins of the bija mantras? Did he come to believe he had been invoking actual supernatural beings? This kind of thing just makes no sense to me. It seems to me that the outrage is a function of getting only *part* of the picture beyond what you get in the basic TM course. (And not incidentally, there has been *at least* as much deception from those seeking to paint TM as Hinduism as there has been from the TMO seeking to paint it as secular, and on the basis of a far less admirable motivation. Of course, that gets into the issue of whether ends ever justify means, but I don't believe there's an absolute answer to that.) I don't have any particular comment on most of the rest of what you write, although I do disagree with the baby steps characterization. But that's a different issue. One final point: So, bottom line, the issue of whether TM or the TMO were a religion had nothing to do with *MY* walking away from TM. But that issue was and will continue to be important to those who feel a loyalty to a particular religion, and later find that information was hidden from them that caused them to (in their own eyes) violate the tenets of that religion. That is essentially what you have been advo- cating lately. What I would like above all would be for folks to have the *complete* picture. It wouldn't satisfy the fundamentalist types, of course, but I'd be willing to bet that a good portion of the more reasonable folks, including many nonfundamentalist religionists, would realize the Hindu origins bit is just not significant. But there's *no way* people can ever have the complete picture without really getting into it, including plenty of experience of the technique. In between virtually no information about TM's origins and context and full information, there's a big swath of *partial* information that is essentially misleading. If one thinks practice of the TM technique is highly beneficial for most people, and conveying full information isn't a practical option, what does one do?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: Thanks for the response. Comments below. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: snip Would it have become less about self-discovery for you? No. It would have been irrelevant. But it would not have been irrelevant to, say, the former Catholic priest who shared a trailer with me at Humboldt. (This was what, a rounding course? TTC? Neither?) That would have been one of the big summer month-long residence courses before I became a TM teacher, probably in 1970 or 1971 or thereabouts. (I have a really shitty memory for year dates. I tend to remember time by the album that was popular at the time.) If the origin and the nature of the mantras had not been hidden from him, he would never have begun TM. Some months later, he *did* learn about those origins, and dropped TM like a hot potato. He also felt betrayed and lied to. That's because IMO he *was* betrayed and lied to, by people like yourself who were trying to protect him from knowledge he didn't need to know. See, here's my problem. If a former priest could go this far--to the extent of attending a residential course taught by MMY--without having any suspicion that there was anything religious about it, *how religious could what he was being taught have been*? He was a *former* priest, I think that's what I just said... searching for fulfillment in meditation what he never found in the Church. He bought the TMO's not religious line hook, line, and sinker. Although an apostate from the priesthood, he was nonetheless strongly Catholic. That doesn't answer my question. If he could get that far with TM without suspecting it was religious, *how religious could what he have learned in the TM context have been*? And he was getting a lot more of the SCI-type stuff than Lynch's kids will. That is *NOT* a given. You seem to be one of the only people on this forum who actually believes it. I haven't heard that a month-long rounding course is going to be part of the deal with Lynch's project, have you? What exactly *did* he later learn about the mantras and their origins? Was he told they were the names of Hindu gods? Or just that Hindus associated them with gods? The latter. And then he saw the translation of the puja, in which *his TM teacher* had bowed down to those same gods, and asked him to do so, too. And he did. He wouldn't have, if he had known what he was bowing down to. What *did* he think he was kneeling (not bowing down) to? Did he do any research into the origins of the bija mantras? Did he come to believe he had been invoking actual supernatural beings? I don't know. He wrote to me expressing his disappointment in having been lied to so thoroughly by his own TM teacher, who I knew. I agreed with him in a return letter, but I never heard back. This kind of thing just makes no sense to me. That is probably because, like me, you never felt strongly enough about any religion to be upset if you had been tricked into violating its commandments. That's certainly part of it. But even if I *did* feel strongly about a religion, I think it's entirely possible that I'd have come to the same understanding I have now, i.e., that religious mythology is, or was originally, very largely a system of *metaphors* for the nature and mechanics of consciousness. You pointed out earlier that what were once systems of self-development harden into dogma. In my view, that happens when their techniques for self-development get lost or suppressed so that the referents of the metaphors are no longer accessible. At that point the metaphors begin to be taken concretely or literally, and the result is dogma. So what's kneeling or bowing down a metaphor for? In the context of the puja, IMHO, it's getting the small self out of the way; it's a physical posture that represents transcending. (Similarly with the first advanced technique, but in a much more potent form.) There's a lot more to this line of thinking than I've written, BTW. It seems to me that the outrage is a function of getting only *part* of the picture beyond what you get in the basic TM course. The outrage in this case was at having been tricked into getting down on his knees and bowing to Hindu gods. That would not *bother* you. It would not bother *me*. It does not bother me still. I am making the case for those who *would* be bothered by it. They have the right to know what they are being asked to kneel to. But see above. If I'm right, they should have no problem with it. Again, I think *partial* knowledge can be very misleading. According to Tony Nader, the Hindu deities are
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: But there's *no way* people can ever have the complete picture without really getting into it, including plenty of experience of the technique. In between virtually no information about TM's origins and context and full information, there's a big swath of *partial* information that is essentially misleading. If one thinks practice of the TM technique is highly beneficial for most people, and conveying full information isn't a practical option, what does one do? I think you are confusing the ability to present a more complete picture of the TM practice with the ability to control how people view and react to this information. Bingo!!! That's exactly it. As far as I can tell, Judy is convinced that there is a proper or authoritative or correct complete picture of TM practice. Coincidentally enough, it happens to be her view. In stark contrast to the way you feel about *your* view (both of you), right?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Arhata Osho arhatafreespeech@ wrote: Outsiders have no clue what TM means let alone the infinite amount of meditations available. Take a poll of 'meditators' (including Yoga people), and they have 0 interest! But if they forked over $2,500 they could get the HIGHEST teaching! You must convince them that whatever they are doing is only a relative benefit and lacks the mega mojo of full blown TM mantra meditation. If you can't get them to fork over the cash please at least see if you can get them to feel badly about their own practice. Maharishi will bless you for this. (By bless I mean ignore which is how he blessed the rest of us.) (No residual resentment on Curtis's part, nosireebob.) Replying to obvious satire with a personal putdown? I payed $35 for TM. This criticism of the price has nothing to do with my personal experience of TM. Making fun of the hubris of the TM system's claim doesn't require a negitive emotional basis. It requires knowing their claims and not believing them. James Randi makes fun of them for the same grandiosity with no background in TM. My satire was actually perfectly in accordance with Maharishi's direct teaching and how his teachers present his knowledge. The satire comes not from extreme exaggeration but the lack of it. Contemplation and concentration keep the mind of the surface and don't bring the benifits of TM claim, is part of the earliest exposure to his teaching for people. It is a statement of the superiority of TM over hundreds of other techniques that Maharishi knew nothing about. It is one of his ridiculous assertions meant to convey that he had the best and forget the rest. I called you out on using an ad hominem argument in our last discussion and I call you out again. This is anti-intellectual and an unfriendly interjection into a discussion of ideas. You aren't getting any traction with me by pretending to find justifications for your extremely rude tactic. I understand that your need this theory to understand why I would have the same TM experiences you do and conclude that Maharishi was making a big deal out of nothing. But it reveals the weakness in your intellectual position, and I am not fooled by this sophist maneuver.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: Would you have any objections to attendees at the up- coming McCartney concert being handed a flyer containing only the English translation of the TM puja -- no commentary, only a sim- ple explanation that this was a translation of the ceremony their kids would be witnessing and asked at the end to participate in by kneeling down -- as they went into the concert? And if you *would* have objections, why? X: Sir, Excuse me sir. Before you enroll your son in this University, I want to give you something. You may not be aware of it, but this is an institution based on pagen Gods. Here is a list of just some of the many gods upon which this institution is based. And this is just the A's! Most courses in this University have their roots in the Greco-Roman civilizations. And these gods are found in similar forms in Roman religions. Science, philosophy, drama, art, all of today's major fields of knowledge have their roots in greek traditions -- traditions steeped through and through to these Gods. And these greeks, the progenitors of our western civilization, they made offerings and bowed down to these pagan gods all the time. Their whole civilization was based on gods -- they felt everything was governed by these pagan gods. Surely you will want to be aware of this before spending your hard earned money sending your son to a cult indoctrination into ancient pagan mysteries. (and don't even get me started on what doing it greek means. Filthy) Aphrodite Goddess of love, lust, beauty, wife of Hephaestus. Ares is her lover. Eros is her son. Known as the most beautiful of the Greek goddesses. Her symbols are the scepter, myrtle, and dove. Apollo God of music, prophecies, poetry, and archery. Also said to be the god of light and truth. Is associated with the sun. Also referred to as the most beautiful of the gods. He is Artemis's twin brother, and son of Zeus. His symbols are the bow, lyre, and laurel. AresGod of war, murder and bloodshed. Brother to Athena, and is the son of Zeus. Has an affair with Aphrodite. His symbols are vultures, dogs, boars, and a spear. Artemis Goddess of the hunt and wild things, and the moon. Protector of the dewy young. She became associated with the moon. Apollo is her twin brother. Artemis is a virgin goddess. Her symbols are the bow, dogs, and deer. Athena Goddess of wisdom, warfare, handicrafts and reason. Sister of Ares, and is the daughter of Zeus. Sprung from Zeus's head in full body armor. She is the wisest of the gods. Her symbols are the aegis, owl, and olive tree.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: Now, since I have been indulging your ques- tions, please indulge one of mine. Would you have any objections to attendees at the up- coming McCartney concert being handed a flyer containing only the English translation of the TM puja -- no commentary, only a sim- ple explanation that this was a translation of the ceremony their kids would be witnessing and asked at the end to participate in by kneeling down -- as they went into the concert? YES, I'd object, because it would be misleading. As I said in my previous post: What I would like above all would be for folks to have the *complete* picture. It wouldn't satisfy the fundamentalist types, of course, but I'd be willing to bet that a good portion of the more reasonable folks, including many nonfundamentalist religionists, would realize the Hindu origins bit is just not significant. But there's *no way* people can ever have the complete picture without really getting into it, including plenty of experience of the technique. In between virtually no information about TM's origins and context and full information, there's a big swath of *partial* information that is essentially misleading. If one thinks practice of the TM technique is highly beneficial for most people, and conveying full information isn't a practical option, what does one do? What you do, obviously. Lie to them. Overtly, or by omission.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: But there's *no way* people can ever have the complete picture without really getting into it, including plenty of experience of the technique. In between virtually no information about TM's origins and context and full information, there's a big swath of *partial* information that is essentially misleading. If one thinks practice of the TM technique is highly beneficial for most people, and conveying full information isn't a practical option, what does one do? I think you are confusing the ability to present a more complete picture of the TM practice with the ability to control how people view and react to this information. Bingo!!! That's exactly it. As far as I can tell, Judy is convinced that there is a proper or authoritative or correct complete picture of TM practice. Coincidentally enough, it happens to be her view. In stark contrast to the way you feel about *your* view (both of you), right? This is the thing that Judy has NEVER understood about me. Or, as I interpret his posts here, about Curtis. We really DON'T feel that our view is the correct view, or the truth. It is nothing more than our view. JUDY's view, on the other hand, is truth. So much so that she cannot even *imagine* someone not feeling the same way about their view. Sad.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: snip I called you out on using an ad hominem argument in our last discussion It wasn't an argument, it was an observation. When I first made it, you reacted badly, so I dropped it. Then just recently, as I noted earlier today, you posted an incredibly dishonest and just plain inaccurate tirade in response to my reply to Barry correcting his misrepresentation of what I'd said originally. You can go soak your head as far as I'm concerned. And I stand by what I said.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: But there's *no way* people can ever have the complete picture without really getting into it, including plenty of experience of the technique. In between virtually no information about TM's origins and context and full information, there's a big swath of *partial* information that is essentially misleading. If one thinks practice of the TM technique is highly beneficial for most people, and conveying full information isn't a practical option, what does one do? I think you are confusing the ability to present a more complete picture of the TM practice with the ability to control how people view and react to this information. Bingo!!! That's exactly it. As far as I can tell, Judy is convinced that there is a proper or authoritative or correct complete picture of TM practice. Coincidentally enough, it happens to be her view. In stark contrast to the way you feel about *your* view (both of you), right? This is the thing that Judy has NEVER understood about me. Or, as I interpret his posts here, about Curtis. We really DON'T feel that our view is the correct view, or the truth. It is nothing more than our view. So you'd both acknowledge, then, that my view might be right?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
Checks in the envelope . . where to mail it! --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, Arhata Osho arhatafreespeech@ ... wrote: Outsiders have no clue what TM means let alone the infinite amount of meditations available. Take a poll of 'meditators' (including Yoga people), and they have 0 interest! But if they forked over $2,500 they could get the HIGHEST teaching! You must convince them that whatever they are doing is only a relative benefit and lacks the mega mojo of full blown TM mantra meditation. If you can't get them to fork over the cash please at least see if you can get them to feel badly about their own practice. Maharishi will bless you for this. (By bless I mean ignore which is how he blessed the rest of us.) --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So no, Judy, I've never been religious. And yes, I have always viewed most religion as the *anti- thesis* of self discovery. Still do. Total agreement. If I could follow up: But you now believe that TM is a religion, not a means of self-discovery? I believe that many in the TM movement have turned basic TM into a religion, one that has something but not everything to do with its origins *as* a religious technique. I believe that the environment of the *TMO* is very definitely religious in nature currently, and is actively seeking to hide that. Because it seems that for a few years, at least, you were having the experience of self-discovery as a result of the practice. I was pursuing my own self discovery while practicing the TM technique. I am not con- vinced that all of the discovery happened as a result of that practice. In fact, I think that a lot of it just happened, similar to the way that shit just happens. *At the time*, I would have credited TM for those experiences; now I would not and do not. I am trying to be as precise as I possibly can here. What if you had learned TM and continued to meditate but never became a TM teacher or went any further with the techniques or teachings? Would you ever have come to be uncomfortable with the practice because you felt it was religious? If I had never become a TM teacher, I am fairly confident that I would have given up on the TM technique at the five-year mark. One of my reasons for attending TM Teacher Training was to either jumpstart the tech- nique such that I began perceived sufficient benefits from TM to continue practicing it, or quit altogether. The jumpstart worked, for a number of years, but then when I no longer perceived sufficient benefit, I quit. I did NOT stop TM because I thought it was religious. I stopped primarly because as far as I could tell it was doing nothing to further my self discovery. Secondarily, I guit because as a TM teacher I was being asked to lie and do other things on a regular basis that I found to be con- trary to my own ethics and repulsive to my values. Thirdly, I quit because the TM movement was clearly going in a direction I did not want to go -- towards becoming more of a cult, and away from openness and transparency. The question of whether that direction was in the direction of becoming more of a religion would not and did not occur to me. It was just no longer an organization I wanted to be associated with. If you had stuck with basic TM but then read the translation of the puja years later and been told the mantras were the names of Hindu deities, would that have soured you on the practice? No. Not me personally. It would have soured some friends who *started* from a fairly religious background; I did not. At the time, all I would have cared about was that it seemed to work. I now see that seeming to work period as more of a *contrast* between my life up till then, practicing no form of meditation reg- ularly, and then practicing *some* form of meditation regularly. *Of course* I felt some benefits at the start. When I stopped feeling those benefits, I moved on and found other techniques from which the sense of them working and providing continuing benefits did not fade and has not faded in any of the years since. Would it have become less about self-discovery for you? No. It would have been irrelevant. But it would not have been irrelevant to, say,
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: But there's *no way* people can ever have the complete picture without really getting into it, including plenty of experience of the technique. In between virtually no information about TM's origins and context and full information, there's a big swath of *partial* information that is essentially misleading. If one thinks practice of the TM technique is highly beneficial for most people, and conveying full information isn't a practical option, what does one do? I think you are confusing the ability to present a more complete picture of the TM practice with the ability to control how people view and react to this information. Bingo!!! That's exactly it. As far as I can tell, Judy is convinced that there is a proper or authoritative or correct complete picture of TM practice. Coincidentally enough, it happens to be her view. In stark contrast to the way you feel about *your* view (both of you), right? This is the thing that Judy has NEVER understood about me. Or, as I interpret his posts here, about Curtis. We really DON'T feel that our view is the correct view, or the truth. It is nothing more than our view. So you'd both acknowledge, then, that my view might be right? Absolutely NOT. I do not admit the possibility that any point of view can be right. What I would acknowledge is that your point of view is just as valid as mine. Can you say the same?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Arhata Osho arhatafreespe...@... wrote: Checks in the envelope . . where to mail it! T To me of course, I'll make sure he gets it! I'll cash it in my bank and write a check on my own account, then drop the check into the Ganges to follow his ashes! --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, Arhata Osho arhatafreespeech@ ... wrote: Outsiders have no clue what TM means let alone the infinite amount of meditations available. Take a poll of 'meditators' (including Yoga people), and they have 0 interest! But if they forked over $2,500 they could get the HIGHEST teaching! You must convince them that whatever they are doing is only a relative benefit and lacks the mega mojo of full blown TM mantra meditation. If you can't get them to fork over the cash please at least see if you can get them to feel badly about their own practice. Maharishi will bless you for this. (By bless I mean ignore which is how he blessed the rest of us.) --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@ yahoogroups. com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: So no, Judy, I've never been religious. And yes, I have always viewed most religion as the *anti- thesis* of self discovery. Still do. Total agreement. If I could follow up: But you now believe that TM is a religion, not a means of self-discovery? I believe that many in the TM movement have turned basic TM into a religion, one that has something but not everything to do with its origins *as* a religious technique. I believe that the environment of the *TMO* is very definitely religious in nature currently, and is actively seeking to hide that. Because it seems that for a few years, at least, you were having the experience of self-discovery as a result of the practice. I was pursuing my own self discovery while practicing the TM technique. I am not con- vinced that all of the discovery happened as a result of that practice. In fact, I think that a lot of it just happened, similar to the way that shit just happens. *At the time*, I would have credited TM for those experiences; now I would not and do not. I am trying to be as precise as I possibly can here. What if you had learned TM and continued to meditate but never became a TM teacher or went any further with the techniques or teachings? Would you ever have come to be uncomfortable with the practice because you felt it was religious? If I had never become a TM teacher, I am fairly confident that I would have given up on the TM technique at the five-year mark. One of my reasons for attending TM Teacher Training was to either jumpstart the tech- nique such that I began perceived sufficient benefits from TM to continue practicing it, or quit altogether. The jumpstart worked, for a number of years, but then when I no longer perceived sufficient benefit, I quit. I did NOT stop TM because I thought it was religious. I stopped primarly because as far as I could tell it was doing nothing to further my self discovery. Secondarily, I guit because as a TM teacher I was being asked to lie and do other things on a regular basis that I found to be con- trary to my own ethics and repulsive to my values. Thirdly, I quit because the TM movement was clearly going in a direction I did not want to go -- towards becoming more of a cult, and away from openness and transparency. The question of whether that direction was in the direction of becoming more of a religion would not and did not occur to me. It was just no longer an organization I wanted to be associated with. If you had stuck with basic TM but then read the translation of the puja years later and been told the mantras were the names of Hindu deities, would that have soured you on the practice? No. Not me personally. It would have soured some friends who *started* from a fairly religious background; I did not. At the time, all I would have cared about was that it seemed to work. I now
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: Would you have any objections to attendees at the up- coming McCartney concert being handed a flyer containing only the English translation of the TM puja -- no commentary, only a sim- ple explanation that this was a translation of the ceremony their kids would be witnessing and asked at the end to participate in by kneeling down -- as they went into the concert? And if you *would* have objections, why? Actually, what's to stop anyone from doing that? Anybody free one week from tonight for a few hours? :) Sal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip I called you out on using an ad hominem argument in our last discussion It wasn't an argument, it was an observation. When I first made it, you reacted badly, so I dropped it. Then just recently, as I noted earlier today, you posted an incredibly dishonest and just plain inaccurate tirade in response to my reply to Barry correcting his misrepresentation of what I'd said originally. You can go soak your head as far as I'm concerned. Were you worried that I was unclear about your malevolent intention? And I stand by what I said.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: But there's *no way* people can ever have the complete picture without really getting into it, including plenty of experience of the technique. In between virtually no information about TM's origins and context and full information, there's a big swath of *partial* information that is essentially misleading. If one thinks practice of the TM technique is highly beneficial for most people, and conveying full information isn't a practical option, what does one do? I think you are confusing the ability to present a more complete picture of the TM practice with the ability to control how people view and react to this information. Bingo!!! That's exactly it. As far as I can tell, Judy is convinced that there is a proper or authoritative or correct complete picture of TM practice. Coincidentally enough, it happens to be her view. In stark contrast to the way you feel about *your* view (both of you), right? This is the thing that Judy has NEVER understood about me. Or, as I interpret his posts here, about Curtis. We really DON'T feel that our view is the correct view, or the truth. It is nothing more than our view. So you'd both acknowledge, then, that my view might be right? Absolutely NOT. I do not admit the possibility that any point of view can be right. What I would acknowledge is that your point of view is just as valid as mine. Can you say the same? Sure, and mean the same thing by it that you do: I don't see how anyone with an ounce of integrity can *possibly* be arguing that the TMO does not teach religiously-based ideas. They'll say ANYTHING rather than admit what MOST of them know to be the truth, that OF COURSE all of the TM dogma is based on Hindu dogma. They'll lie, they'll deny, they'll come with up excuses, they'll obfuscate, they'll attempt to distract, they'll do ANYTHING rather than violate this First Commandment. And so on.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Free Web Event: McCartney/Lynch Benefit Concert to Push TM in Public Schools
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltabl...@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, curtisdeltablues curtisdeltablues@ wrote: snip I called you out on using an ad hominem argument in our last discussion It wasn't an argument, it was an observation. When I first made it, you reacted badly, so I dropped it. Then just recently, as I noted earlier today, you posted an incredibly dishonest and just plain inaccurate tirade in response to my reply to Barry correcting his misrepresentation of what I'd said originally. You can go soak your head as far as I'm concerned. Were you worried that I was unclear about your malevolent intention? Your head hasn't soaked long enough yet, I'm afraid. You're still having paranoid fantasies.
