[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/17/2013 10:50 AM, authfriend wrote: (snip) You meant something more like He's religious about brushing his teeth. ;-) Have you been to a dentist lately? I swear they now train the techs as if brushing and flossing is a religion. :-D You mean, as a transcendental activity? Yes, even though they drill it in to you that it should be effortless. Sometimes it doesn't make a dent(in) the stress of the day but the inherent wisdom, the root of the teaching is the crowning achievement in the form of ultimate silence experienced at the core of one's Being. The scale of the practice's effect can not be communicated orally, you must experience it for yourself.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann awoelflebater@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/17/2013 10:50 AM, authfriend wrote: (snip) You meant something more like He's religious about brushing his teeth. ;-) Have you been to a dentist lately? I swear they now train the techs as if brushing and flossing is a religion. :-D You mean, as a transcendental activity? Yes, even though they drill it in to you that it should be effortless. Sometimes it doesn't make a dent(in) the stress of the day but the inherent wisdom, the root of the teaching is the crowning achievement in the form of ultimate silence experienced at the core of one's Being. The scale of the practice's effect can not be communicated orally, you must experience it for yourself. Sounds ful-filling!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
authfriend: One point, though. Even if one thinks the mantras invoke deities, even if one feels devotion to those deities, when one transcends the mantra, one also transcends devotion. Every single time you invoke the TM bija mantra you are in a state of devotion - devotion to the Transcendental Person - Purusha. This devotion IS transcending; a devotion to the Transcendental Person - Purusha. Otherwise, TMers wouldn't be using a bija mantra at all; they would just BE - no support or object to meditate on. But, the question is: How do we know fer sure that the source of our TMer focus has the form of a dot or a triangle or our own special sound isn't just non-sense gibberish made up by someone selling water down by the river? Because it is purely seed-syllables [bijasaras] is the purest form of mantra. It does not make a request or praise god, it is God's purest expression. Gayatri is great but it cannot match srividya because it is still in language; it is Veda and mantra but when transformed into the srividya its greatness increases (95). Work cited: Auspicious Wisdon The texts and traditions of Srividya Sakta Tantrism in South India. by Douglas Renfrew Brooks SUNY, 1992 ... I simply wanted to make the point that TM is not taught as a devotional practice... I think this is correct. While within the TMO itself, there is a lot of devotion, and was (to MMY when he was living), exactly what makes something devotional is rather complex. When I was at Maharishi Nagar some time ago, a young Indian boy asked me 'Who is your god?', and I had no idea at the time, what he was talking about. Later I presumed he meant something connected with the mantra. I think there has to be a conscious sense of devotion. Say a guy, Dick, is attracted to a gal, Jane, falls head over heels for her, and becomes devoted to her welfare. That to me is something different from someone telling Dick that he ought to repeat the name 'Jane' quietly to himself every day, 2x, for 20 minutes. That practice does not necessarily stir up any devotion. Suppose Dick does not know Jane, or he is not an English speaker, then Jane may mean nothing to him even as a name. If Dick knows Jane and is smitten, and is asked to repeat the name of Jane, then that might be a devotional practice for Dick. I never felt devotional regarding TM. And while there are subtle and not so subtle pressures in and around the movement that nudge one to be of a devotional nature, i n particular to MMY and the 'knowledge', I think you are right that TM is not taught as a devotional practice, even if that was in fact a clandestine intent, because something more, a natural attraction and emotional attitude toward something - a focus - is needed in addition to be devotional. Simply being 'devoted' in a superficial sense, i.e., regular in practice because it feels good, does not supply that added mental and emotional attention needed to be devotional, in the sense that you KNOW what the object of devotion really is. If you meditate because you have the idea there is something called 'enlightenment' that you think is real, but entertain 'enlightenment' as an abstract idea whose nature is not actually known, that is, is hypothetical at that point, this does not stir up the kind of feelings that are typically associated with the word devotion when one is emotionally bound to an object or idea. This is how I practiced TM, always wondering if it would actually do the job. The closer I seemed to be getting, there always was some sense of a setback, that the damn thing really was not working, or had stopped working, or maybe I should try something else etc. That was because I did not believe it was going to do the job, rather I hoped it might, always a hypothetical element intruded. At that point, after having tried a number of things over the years, the possible variety of techniques had settled down to a very few, less than a handful of generic categories, and so if I wanted to proceed, I had just a small choice of things to do. Because my nature is not naturally devotional in the way people with religious feelings are, the practice of TM, and my relationship with any teacher of spirituality simply did not go down that avenue.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
... I simply wanted to make the point that TM is not taught as a devotional practice... Xenophaneros Anartaxius: While within the TMO itself, there is a lot of devotion... It would be interesting to delineate the tantric practices that are common to the TMO and Indian Tantra: Yoga Maithuna Mantra Yantras Diksha Puja 'Tantra' can be defined as primarily a technique-rich style of spiritual practice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tantra
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann awoelflebater@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/17/2013 10:50 AM, authfriend wrote: (snip) You meant something more like He's religious about brushing his teeth. ;-) Have you been to a dentist lately? I swear they now train the techs as if brushing and flossing is a religion. :-D You mean, as a transcendental activity? Yes, even though they drill it in to you that it should be effortless. Sometimes it doesn't make a dent(in) the stress of the day but the inherent wisdom, the root of the teaching is the crowning achievement in the form of ultimate silence experienced at the core of one's Being. The scale of the practice's effect can not be communicated orally, you must experience it for yourself. Sounds ful-filling! I had to go to the dentist this morning and thank God I didn't need one. I can't say it was too transcendental however - the scale and scope of the process left me glad to vacate the chair for another 6 months.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
On 02/18/2013 02:22 PM, Ann wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann awoelflebater@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/17/2013 10:50 AM, authfriend wrote: (snip) You meant something more like He's religious about brushing his teeth. ;-) Have you been to a dentist lately? I swear they now train the techs as if brushing and flossing is a religion. :-D You mean, as a transcendental activity? Yes, even though they drill it in to you that it should be effortless. Sometimes it doesn't make a dent(in) the stress of the day but the inherent wisdom, the root of the teaching is the crowning achievement in the form of ultimate silence experienced at the core of one's Being. The scale of the practice's effect can not be communicated orally, you must experience it for yourself. Sounds ful-filling! I had to go to the dentist this morning and thank God I didn't need one. I can't say it was too transcendental however - the scale and scope of the process left me glad to vacate the chair for another 6 months. When I check in at my dentist I usually say, I'm here for my torture session. I think my dentist is about to hand over the practice to a Japanese woman from Tokyo and I'm wary of being told what I need. She thinks I need a crown replacement and I can't afford it at the moment thanks to the banksters.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Ann awoelflebater@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, navashok no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: This IS a gem, navashok, thanks for posting. Also replying to a few of your other recent posts: Yep. I am not an expert on Tantras like Bhairithu or Uncle Tantra, I got these two books in my shelf 'Gems of Tantras' by M.P. Pundit. Once, one of his small booklets, Adoration of the Divine Mother, long out of print, had a trans-formative effect on my life. I'm glad all your sins have already been washed away by Ganga (-: ;-) I was at three Kumbh Melas total, so I think that is overkill. That should really do it for the rest of this incarnation. Monsoon Wedding is my closest encounter with Bollywood. I enjoyed that and also Bend It Like Beckham which had some Bollywood elements. I have seen both. The later one is nice and funny, and the first one is really authentic, that's really how weddings are in India, I was told. Bollywood is a dream-factory, and most movies are junk. The ones I mentioned are among the good ones, there are others too, but the ones I saw were mostly romance. But then I like A.R. Rahman as composer. As for visiting saints, etc., it's my experience that life takes us where we need to go. For what? Well, to have more of it! You tell it, I know about it. PS I also like what Uncle Tantra replied to this topic. True, at some point, life becomes meditation, the barriers between the inner and the outer are torn apart. I still feel the pull inward, quite spontaneously. I think that's really what it is all about: when the pull is so strong, that meditation is unavoidable, this also with regard to the guy who follows Shivabalayogi. At that point, there is not the question IF you should meditate, WHY and for WHAT. But if you try to force yourself to do meditation, for many hours, when you do it to achieve something, maybe to become somebody, have exaggerated expectations, then it's indeed unhealthy. But I don't understand people like Ann, who don't enjoy meditation. I think she really doesn't know what meditation is. You could be right on that one. For me, activity is so charming, so fulfilling, so FULL that nothing has yet superseded it for me. The variety, the nuances, the diversity of what one can experience with the eyes open, the ears listening, the skin feeling just offers so much more for me. Ann, I have no argument about this. It's more like an observation. I am with Bhairitu on this, meditation is not for everybody, I love it, but it doesn't have to be like this for you. There are different paths, approaches to God, if you find God in activity, if you just enjoy life, kudos to you. But of course, along with all the tactile sensations are the brain functions, the emotions, the thoughts, the insights that go along with it. I mean, how can you beat that? What a smorgasbord of delight, of thrill, of waiting for the next unknown event in one's day to pop up? Having said the above, I don't think you have to beat that. Meditation isn't about getting excited, it's about loosing excitation, it's about getting detached (non-attached). Some people have a natural pull towards that, they are drawn inward. They question the excitements of life, they question there own attachment to thoughts. If you are just too much excited about life, you may miss it's evanescence, it's the emptiness. It takes all ones skill just to engineer one's way through a single day. When I sleep it is way more interesting than meditating. My nights during sleep are like three-feature film nights; I get as much experience dreaming as I do being awake only this time I get to live other realities, see new things, things I don't observe during the day - fantastic things. Nice, sounds you are having a lot of lucid dreaming. Meditation though is quite different. I mean, I have 24 HOURS of non-stop input, I'm rolling in it and I still can't get enough. So yes, undoubtedly I am missing out on some bliss, some quiet aspects of non-doing but that's okay, I think I see lots of God everywhere I look, even picking up the dog shit. I too think it's okay.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: snip Regarding meditation, my late tantra guru always said if you don't feel like meditating then don't because nothing will be gained from the meditation. In TM it was treated more devotional and skipping frowned on. FWIW, I never heard there was anything devotional about doing TM regularly. Doing TM regularly - quite obviously with zeal - means to devote ones time to it: de·vote (d-vt) tr.v. de·vot·ed, de·vot·ing, de·votes 1. To give or apply (one's time, attention, or self) entirely to a particular activity, pursuit, cause, or person. 2. To set apart for a specific purpose or use: land devoted to mining. ... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/devote In the above definitely #1 is applicable devotion [d#618;#712;v#601;#650;#643;#601;n] n 1. (often foll by to) strong attachment (to) or affection (for a cause, person, etc.) marked by dedicated loyalty 2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) religious zeal; piety 3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (often plural) religious observance or prayers http://www.thefreedictionary.com/devotion #1 is applicable here, as in TM there is an attachment to the practice . In part also #3. It was supposedly a matter of the effect on the physiology, like the standard (not just in TM) recommendation to eat and go to bed at regular times. Non sequitur. TM was also compared to brushing your teeth. It wouldn't make any sense to say, If you don't feel like brushing your teeth then don't because nothing will be gained from brushing them. Well, there is a difference of opinion here. It's obvious, that while some people get out a lot of their meditations, there are others that don't - for example Ann, and yet others who are mostly daydreaming or dozing.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
The skinboy I spoke with recently said point blank that TM is a Hindu devotional practice of repeating or chanting the names of Hindu goddesses whether one knows that is what one is doing or not. From: navashok no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 8:47 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu wrote: Regarding meditation, my late tantra guru always said if you don't feel like meditating then don't because nothing will be gained from the meditation. In TM it was treated more devotional and skipping frowned on. FWIW, I never heard there was anything devotional about doing TM regularly. Doing TM regularly - quite obviously with zeal - means to devote ones time to it: de·vote (d-vt) tr.v. de·vot·ed, de·vot·ing, de·votes 1. To give or apply (one's time, attention, or self) entirely to a particular activity, pursuit, cause, or person. 2. To set apart for a specific purpose or use: land devoted to mining. ... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/devote In the above definitely #1 is applicable devotion [dɪˈvəʊʃən] n 1. (often foll by to) strong attachment (to) or affection (for a cause, person, etc.) marked by dedicated loyalty 2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) religious zeal; piety 3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (often plural) religious observance or prayers http://www.thefreedictionary.com/devotion #1 is applicable here, as in TM there is an attachment to the practice . In part also #3. It was supposedly a matter of the effect on the physiology, like the standard (not just in TM) recommendation to eat and go to bed at regular times. Non sequitur. TM was also compared to brushing your teeth. It wouldn't make any sense to say, If you don't feel like brushing your teeth then don't because nothing will be gained from brushing them. Well, there is a difference of opinion here. It's obvious, that while some people get out a lot of their meditations, there are others that don't - for example Ann, and yet others who are mostly daydreaming or dozing.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Michael Jackson mjackson74@... wrote: The skinboy I spoke with recently said point blank that TM is a Hindu devotional practice of repeating or chanting the names of Hindu goddesses whether one knows that is what one is doing or not. Yes, you told us what he said already. (I asked you whether when one eats bread and drinks wine, one is engaging in a Christian devotional practice whether one knows it or not. I don't believe you responded.) But this has nothing to do with the point I was making to Bhairitu. The key words are treated as. Navashok's comments are a function of his lack of command of English, so they're irrelevant as well. From: navashok no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, February 17, 2013 8:47 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu wrote: Regarding meditation, my late tantra guru always said if you don't feel like meditating then don't because nothing will be gained from the meditation. In TM it was treated more devotional and skipping frowned on. FWIW, I never heard there was anything devotional about doing TM regularly. Doing TM regularly - quite obviously with zeal - means to devote ones time to it: de·vote (d-vt) tr.v. de·vot·ed, de·vot·ing, de·votes 1. To give or apply (one's time, attention, or self) entirely to a particular activity, pursuit, cause, or person. 2. To set apart for a specific purpose or use: land devoted to mining. ... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/devote In the above definitely #1 is applicable devotion [dɪËvÉÊÊÉn] n 1. (often foll by to) strong attachment (to) or affection (for a cause, person, etc.) marked by dedicated loyalty 2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) religious zeal; piety 3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (often plural) religious observance or prayers http://www.thefreedictionary.com/devotion #1 is applicable here, as in TM there is an attachment to the practice . In part also #3. It was supposedly a matter of the effect on the physiology, like the standard (not just in TM) recommendation to eat and go to bed at regular times. Non sequitur. TM was also compared to brushing your teeth. It wouldn't make any sense to say, If you don't feel like brushing your teeth then don't because nothing will be gained from brushing them. Well, there is a difference of opinion here. It's obvious, that while some people get out a lot of their meditations, there are others that don't - for example Ann, and yet others who are mostly daydreaming or dozing.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, navashok no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: snip Regarding meditation, my late tantra guru always said if you don't feel like meditating then don't because nothing will be gained from the meditation. In TM it was treated more devotional and skipping frowned on. FWIW, I never heard there was anything devotional about doing TM regularly. Doing TM regularly - quite obviously with zeal - means to devote ones time to it: Right. But that isn't what the adjective devotional means. In English, you can't always assume one form of a term has exactly the same meanings as another form. (In any case, Bhairitu should have used the adverb devotionally rather than the adjective devotional.) And zeal is not necessarily applicable either. de·vote (d-vt) tr.v. de·vot·ed, de·vot·ing, de·votes 1. To give or apply (one's time, attention, or self) entirely to a particular activity, pursuit, cause, or person. 2. To set apart for a specific purpose or use: land devoted to mining. ... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/devote In the above definitely #1 is applicable Right. But it isn't clear that's what Bhairitu meant by it (and of course entirely wouldn't apply to something one does twice a day for 20 minutes). devotion [d#618;#712;v#601;#650;#643;#601;n] n 1. (often foll by to) strong attachment (to) or affection (for a cause, person, etc.) marked by dedicated loyalty 2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) religious zeal; piety 3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (often plural) religious observance or prayers http://www.thefreedictionary.com/devotion #1 is applicable here, as in TM there is an attachment to the practice . In part also #3. Bhairitu may have meant #1, in the sense of being dedicated to regular practice, just as one might be said to be dedicated to brushing one's teeth twice a day whether one feels like it or not. If he meant #3--this was my point-- that's not what I was taught. It was supposedly a matter of the effect on the physiology, like the standard (not just in TM) recommendation to eat and go to bed at regular times. Non sequitur. Not at all. You've completely missed my point, which had to do with what I was taught was the reason it was important not to miss meditations. TM was also compared to brushing your teeth. It wouldn't make any sense to say, If you don't feel like brushing your teeth then don't because nothing will be gained from brushing them. Well, there is a difference of opinion here. It's obvious, that while some people get out a lot of their meditations, there are others that don't - for example Ann, and yet others who are mostly daydreaming or dozing. In the TM context, I was taught that it didn't matter whether one felt one was getting a lot out of one's meditation--it was doing one good regardless, as long as one was practicing according to the instructions (including being regular). You see, the point has to do with Bhairitu's phrase treated as, meaning what TMers are taught--at least in my experience--which is a matter of fact, not opinion. Navashok, your English skills simply aren't good enough to play semantic games with the dictionary.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
On 02/17/2013 08:13 AM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, navashok no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: snip Regarding meditation, my late tantra guru always said if you don't feel like meditating then don't because nothing will be gained from the meditation. In TM it was treated more devotional and skipping frowned on. FWIW, I never heard there was anything devotional about doing TM regularly. Doing TM regularly - quite obviously with zeal - means to devote ones time to it: Right. But that isn't what the adjective devotional means. In English, you can't always assume one form of a term has exactly the same meanings as another form. (In any case, Bhairitu should have used the adverb devotionally rather than the adjective devotional.) And zeal is not necessarily applicable either. de·vote (d-vt) tr.v. de·vot·ed, de·vot·ing, de·votes 1. To give or apply (one's time, attention, or self) entirely to a particular activity, pursuit, cause, or person. 2. To set apart for a specific purpose or use: land devoted to mining. ... http://www.thefreedictionary.com/devote In the above definitely #1 is applicable Right. But it isn't clear that's what Bhairitu meant by it (and of course entirely wouldn't apply to something one does twice a day for 20 minutes). devotion [d#618;#712;v#601;#650;#643;#601;n] n 1. (often foll by to) strong attachment (to) or affection (for a cause, person, etc.) marked by dedicated loyalty 2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) religious zeal; piety 3. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (often plural) religious observance or prayers http://www.thefreedictionary.com/devotion #1 is applicable here, as in TM there is an attachment to the practice . In part also #3. Bhairitu may have meant #1, in the sense of being dedicated to regular practice, just as one might be said to be dedicated to brushing one's teeth twice a day whether one feels like it or not. If he meant #3--this was my point-- that's not what I was taught. It was supposedly a matter of the effect on the physiology, like the standard (not just in TM) recommendation to eat and go to bed at regular times. Non sequitur. Not at all. You've completely missed my point, which had to do with what I was taught was the reason it was important not to miss meditations. TM was also compared to brushing your teeth. It wouldn't make any sense to say, If you don't feel like brushing your teeth then don't because nothing will be gained from brushing them. Well, there is a difference of opinion here. It's obvious, that while some people get out a lot of their meditations, there are others that don't - for example Ann, and yet others who are mostly daydreaming or dozing. In the TM context, I was taught that it didn't matter whether one felt one was getting a lot out of one's meditation--it was doing one good regardless, as long as one was practicing according to the instructions (including being regular). You see, the point has to do with Bhairitu's phrase treated as, meaning what TMers are taught--at least in my experience--which is a matter of fact, not opinion. FWIW, we TM teachers always stressed the importance of being regular and there were few exceptions to that though some have claimed more have been added over time. I know TM'ers who get nervous if in a situation that means they might miss a meditation. And finally I said more devotional not just devotional taking the term abstractly in it being like a devotional practice and not that it is one. Furthermore it appears like that to people on other paths who are in awe or admire it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 02/17/2013 08:13 AM, authfriend wrote: snip You see, the point has to do with Bhairitu's phrase treated as, meaning what TMers are taught--at least in my experience--which is a matter of fact, not opinion. FWIW, we TM teachers always stressed the importance of being regular and there were few exceptions to that Right, that was my experience as a student. though some have claimed more have been added over time. I know TM'ers who get nervous if in a situation that means they might miss a meditation. And finally I said more devotional not just devotional taking the term abstractly in it being like a devotional practice and not that it is one. Fine. I simply wanted to make the point that TM is not taught as a devotional practice, which is what it sounded as if you meant by treated as more devotional (i.e., more devotional than Tantric meditation). You meant something more like He's religious about brushing his teeth. ;-) Furthermore it appears like that to people on other paths who are in awe or admire it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
On 02/17/2013 10:50 AM, authfriend wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 02/17/2013 08:13 AM, authfriend wrote: snip You see, the point has to do with Bhairitu's phrase treated as, meaning what TMers are taught--at least in my experience--which is a matter of fact, not opinion. FWIW, we TM teachers always stressed the importance of being regular and there were few exceptions to that Right, that was my experience as a student. though some have claimed more have been added over time. I know TM'ers who get nervous if in a situation that means they might miss a meditation. And finally I said more devotional not just devotional taking the term abstractly in it being like a devotional practice and not that it is one. Fine. I simply wanted to make the point that TM is not taught as a devotional practice, which is what it sounded as if you meant by treated as more devotional (i.e., more devotional than Tantric meditation). You meant something more like He's religious about brushing his teeth. ;-) Have you been to a dentist lately? I swear they now train the techs as if brushing and flossing is a religion. :-D
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: On 02/17/2013 10:50 AM, authfriend wrote: (snip) You meant something more like He's religious about brushing his teeth. ;-) Have you been to a dentist lately? I swear they now train the techs as if brushing and flossing is a religion. :-D You mean, as a transcendental activity?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: ... I simply wanted to make the point that TM is not taught as a devotional practice... I think this is correct. While within the TMO itself, there is a lot of devotion, and was (to MMY when he was living), exactly what makes something devotional is rather complex. When I was at Maharishi Nagar some time ago, a young Indian boy asked me 'Who is your god?', and I had no idea at the time, what he was talking about. Later I presumed he meant something connected with the mantra. I think there has to be a conscious sense of devotion. Say a guy, Dick, is attracted to a gal, Jane, falls head over heels for her, and becomes devoted to her welfare. That to me is something different from someone telling Dick that he ought to repeat the name 'Jane' quietly to himself every day, 2x, for 20 minutes. That practice does not necessarily stir up any devotion. Suppose Dick does not know Jane, or he is not an English speaker, then Jane may mean nothing to him even as a name. If Dick knows Jane and is smitten, and is asked to repeat the name of Jane, then that might be a devotional practice for Dick. I never felt devotional regarding TM. And while there are subtle and not so subtle pressures in and around the movement that nudge one to be of a devotional nature, i n particular to MMY and the 'knowledge', I think you are right that TM is not taught as a devotional practice, even if that was in fact a clandestine intent, because something more, a natural attraction and emotional attitude toward something - a focus - is needed in addition to be devotional. Simply being 'devoted' in a superficial sense, i.e., regular in practice because it feels good, does not supply that added mental and emotional attention needed to be devotional, in the sense that you KNOW what the object of devotion really is. If you meditate because you have the idea there is something called 'enlightenment' that you think is real, but entertain 'enlightenment' as an abstract idea whose nature is not actually known, that is, is hypothetical at that point, this does not stir up the kind of feelings that are typically associated with the word devotion when one is emotionally bound to an object or idea. This is how I practiced TM, always wondering if it would actually do the job. The closer I seemed to be getting, there always was some sense of a setback, that the damn thing really was not working, or had stopped working, or maybe I should try something else etc. That was because I did not believe it was going to do the job, rather I hoped it might, always a hypothetical element intruded. At that point, after having tried a number of things over the years, the possible variety of techniques had settled down to a very few, less than a handful of generic categories, and so if I wanted to proceed, I had just a small choice of things to do. Because my nature is not naturally devotional in the way people with religious feelings are, the practice of TM, and my relationship with any teacher of spirituality simply did not go down that avenue.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
This is all well put, Xeno, I agree with you entirely. One point, though. Even if one thinks the mantras invoke deities, even if one feels devotion to those deities, when one transcends the mantra, one also transcends devotion. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@ wrote: ... I simply wanted to make the point that TM is not taught as a devotional practice... I think this is correct. While within the TMO itself, there is a lot of devotion, and was (to MMY when he was living), exactly what makes something devotional is rather complex. When I was at Maharishi Nagar some time ago, a young Indian boy asked me 'Who is your god?', and I had no idea at the time, what he was talking about. Later I presumed he meant something connected with the mantra. I think there has to be a conscious sense of devotion. Say a guy, Dick, is attracted to a gal, Jane, falls head over heels for her, and becomes devoted to her welfare. That to me is something different from someone telling Dick that he ought to repeat the name 'Jane' quietly to himself every day, 2x, for 20 minutes. That practice does not necessarily stir up any devotion. Suppose Dick does not know Jane, or he is not an English speaker, then Jane may mean nothing to him even as a name. If Dick knows Jane and is smitten, and is asked to repeat the name of Jane, then that might be a devotional practice for Dick. I never felt devotional regarding TM. And while there are subtle and not so subtle pressures in and around the movement that nudge one to be of a devotional nature, i n particular to MMY and the 'knowledge', I think you are right that TM is not taught as a devotional practice, even if that was in fact a clandestine intent, because something more, a natural attraction and emotional attitude toward something - a focus - is needed in addition to be devotional. Simply being 'devoted' in a superficial sense, i.e., regular in practice because it feels good, does not supply that added mental and emotional attention needed to be devotional, in the sense that you KNOW what the object of devotion really is. If you meditate because you have the idea there is something called 'enlightenment' that you think is real, but entertain 'enlightenment' as an abstract idea whose nature is not actually known, that is, is hypothetical at that point, this does not stir up the kind of feelings that are typically associated with the word devotion when one is emotionally bound to an object or idea. This is how I practiced TM, always wondering if it would actually do the job. The closer I seemed to be getting, there always was some sense of a setback, that the damn thing really was not working, or had stopped working, or maybe I should try something else etc. That was because I did not believe it was going to do the job, rather I hoped it might, always a hypothetical element intruded. At that point, after having tried a number of things over the years, the possible variety of techniques had settled down to a very few, less than a handful of generic categories, and so if I wanted to proceed, I had just a small choice of things to do. Because my nature is not naturally devotional in the way people with religious feelings are, the practice of TM, and my relationship with any teacher of spirituality simply did not go down that avenue.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: This is all well put, Xeno, I agree with you entirely. One point, though. Even if one thinks the mantras invoke deities, even if one feels devotion to those deities, when one transcends the mantra, one also transcends devotion. Good point.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend authfriend@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@ wrote: On 02/17/2013 10:50 AM, authfriend wrote: (snip) You meant something more like He's religious about brushing his teeth. ;-) Have you been to a dentist lately? I swear they now train the techs as if brushing and flossing is a religion. :-D You mean, as a transcendental activity? Keep going you two, I know you both have more in there...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, navashok no_reply@... wrote: When tired of meditation do japa. When tired of japa do meditation. Kularnava Tantra When you realize that neither meditation nor japa is ever going to get you anywhere other than where you already are right here, right now, do life. - Uncle Tantra :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, navashok no_reply@ wrote: When tired of meditation do japa. When tired of japa do meditation. Kularnava Tantra When you realize that neither meditation nor japa is ever going to get you anywhere other than where you already are right here, right now, do life. - Uncle Tantra :-) When tired of life, do - whatever you want.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote: This IS a gem, navashok, thanks for posting. Also replying to a few of your other recent posts: Yep. I am not an expert on Tantras like Bhairithu or Uncle Tantra, I got these two books in my shelf 'Gems of Tantras' by M.P. Pundit. Once, one of his small booklets, Adoration of the Divine Mother, long out of print, had a trans-formative effect on my life. I'm glad all your sins have already been washed away by Ganga (-: ;-) I was at three Kumbh Melas total, so I think that is overkill. That should really do it for the rest of this incarnation. Monsoon Wedding is my closest encounter with Bollywood. I enjoyed that and also Bend It Like Beckham which had some Bollywood elements. I have seen both. The later one is nice and funny, and the first one is really authentic, that's really how weddings are in India, I was told. Bollywood is a dream-factory, and most movies are junk. The ones I mentioned are among the good ones, there are others too, but the ones I saw were mostly romance. But then I like A.R. Rahman as composer. As for visiting saints, etc., it's my experience that life takes us where we need to go. For what? Well, to have more of it! You tell it, I know about it. PS I also like what Uncle Tantra replied to this topic. True, at some point, life becomes meditation, the barriers between the inner and the outer are torn apart. I still feel the pull inward, quite spontaneously. I think that's really what it is all about: when the pull is so strong, that meditation is unavoidable, this also with regard to the guy who follows Shivabalayogi. At that point, there is not the question IF you should meditate, WHY and for WHAT. But if you try to force yourself to do meditation, for many hours, when you do it to achieve something, maybe to become somebody, have exaggerated expectations, then it's indeed unhealthy. But I don't understand people like Ann, who don't enjoy meditation. I think she really doesn't know what meditation is. From: navashok no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 6:37 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Gems from the Tantras  When tired of meditation do japa. When tired of japa do meditation. Kularnava Tantra
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, navashok no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@ wrote: This IS a gem, navashok, thanks for posting. Also replying to a few of your other recent posts: Yep. I am not an expert on Tantras like Bhairithu or Uncle Tantra, I got these two books in my shelf 'Gems of Tantras' by M.P. Pundit. Once, one of his small booklets, Adoration of the Divine Mother, long out of print, had a trans-formative effect on my life. I'm glad all your sins have already been washed away by Ganga (-: ;-) I was at three Kumbh Melas total, so I think that is overkill. That should really do it for the rest of this incarnation. Monsoon Wedding is my closest encounter with Bollywood. I enjoyed that and also Bend It Like Beckham which had some Bollywood elements. I have seen both. The later one is nice and funny, and the first one is really authentic, that's really how weddings are in India, I was told. Bollywood is a dream-factory, and most movies are junk. The ones I mentioned are among the good ones, there are others too, but the ones I saw were mostly romance. But then I like A.R. Rahman as composer. As for visiting saints, etc., it's my experience that life takes us where we need to go. For what? Well, to have more of it! You tell it, I know about it. PS I also like what Uncle Tantra replied to this topic. True, at some point, life becomes meditation, the barriers between the inner and the outer are torn apart. I still feel the pull inward, quite spontaneously. I think that's really what it is all about: when the pull is so strong, that meditation is unavoidable, this also with regard to the guy who follows Shivabalayogi. At that point, there is not the question IF you should meditate, WHY and for WHAT. But if you try to force yourself to do meditation, for many hours, when you do it to achieve something, maybe to become somebody, have exaggerated expectations, then it's indeed unhealthy. But I don't understand people like Ann, who don't enjoy meditation. I think she really doesn't know what meditation is. You could be right on that one. For me, activity is so charming, so fulfilling, so FULL that nothing has yet superseded it for me. The variety, the nuances, the diversity of what one can experience with the eyes open, the ears listening, the skin feeling just offers so much more for me. But of course, along with all the tactile sensations are the brain functions, the emotions, the thoughts, the insights that go along with it. I mean, how can you beat that? What a smorgasbord of delight, of thrill, of waiting for the next unknown event in one's day to pop up? It takes all ones skill just to engineer one's way through a single day. When I sleep it is way more interesting than meditating. My nights during sleep are like three-feature film nights; I get as much experience dreaming as I do being awake only this time I get to live other realities, see new things, things I don't observe during the day - fantastic things. I mean, I have 24 HOURS of non-stop input, I'm rolling in it and I still can't get enough. So yes, undoubtedly I am missing out on some bliss, some quiet aspects of non-doing but that's okay, I think I see lots of God everywhere I look, even picking up the dog shit. From: navashok no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 6:37 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Gems from the Tantras  When tired of meditation do japa. When tired of japa do meditation. Kularnava Tantra
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
When tired of meditation do japa. When tired of japa do meditation. Kularnava Tantra turquoiseb: When you realize that neither meditation nor japa is ever going to get you anywhere other than where you already are right here, right now, do life. - Uncle Tantra So, why not just get a life and meditate and do japa?
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
navashok: When tired of meditation do japa. When tired of japa do meditation. Kularnava Tantra The Tantras are not Vedic and the tantric masters are not Vedic. The TM bija mantras are not Vedic because if they were we would not be doing them. Non-Brahmin, non-Indian and non-Sannyasins are not supposed to be chanting the Vedas. The Shankaracharya Order is monastic based on the sramana tradition. Because of this, TMers don't use Vedic mantras like 'OM' in their practice - we are not eligible, just like MMY was not eligible to suceeed SBS. TMers are not supposed to be doing the Gayatri. So, TM practice is basic tantra yoga for the common people and the bija mantras come from the Tantras. But, why would anyone accept the idea that there is 'power' in any particular 'seed' sound mantra, or why should we assume that the name of the TMer Goddess is Saraswati? How do we know fer sure that the source of our TMer focus has the form of a dot or a triangle and our own special sound is non-sense gibberish? So many questions - so few answers.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
Navashok, thank you so much for mentioning A R Rahman. I googled and clicked on the youtube listing and got this amazing video. If the url below doesn't work, just go to youtube. The song is Infinite Love. The images are spectacular especially the very last one which reminds me of an exhibit I once saw at a museum of natural history. But if I say more I would spoil the surprise. http://www.youtube.com/user/Arrahman I appreciate when you say that barriers between inner and outer are torn apart. Life is meditation. It's all one flow. From: navashok no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 7:42 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long wrote: This IS a gem, navashok, thanks for posting. Also replying to a few of your other recent posts: Yep. I am not an expert on Tantras like Bhairithu or Uncle Tantra, I got these two books in my shelf 'Gems of Tantras' by M.P. Pundit. Once, one of his small booklets, Adoration of the Divine Mother, long out of print, had a trans-formative effect on my life. I'm glad all your sins have already been washed away by Ganga (-: ;-) I was at three Kumbh Melas total, so I think that is overkill. That should really do it for the rest of this incarnation. Monsoon Wedding is my closest encounter with Bollywood. I enjoyed that and also Bend It Like Beckham which had some Bollywood elements. I have seen both. The later one is nice and funny, and the first one is really authentic, that's really how weddings are in India, I was told. Bollywood is a dream-factory, and most movies are junk. The ones I mentioned are among the good ones, there are others too, but the ones I saw were mostly romance. But then I like A.R. Rahman as composer. As for visiting saints, etc., it's my experience that life takes us where we need to go. For what? Well, to have more of it! You tell it, I know about it. PS I also like what Uncle Tantra replied to this topic. True, at some point, life becomes meditation, the barriers between the inner and the outer are torn apart. I still feel the pull inward, quite spontaneously. I think that's really what it is all about: when the pull is so strong, that meditation is unavoidable, this also with regard to the guy who follows Shivabalayogi. At that point, there is not the question IF you should meditate, WHY and for WHAT. But if you try to force yourself to do meditation, for many hours, when you do it to achieve something, maybe to become somebody, have exaggerated expectations, then it's indeed unhealthy. But I don't understand people like Ann, who don't enjoy meditation. I think she really doesn't know what meditation is. From: navashok no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 6:37 AM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Gems from the Tantras  When tired of meditation do japa. When tired of japa do meditation. Kularnava Tantra
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
Of no importance, but at the very end you see that the video was sponsored by the Ambani Brothers of Reliance Industries. You won't find a lot of infinite love between those brothers. In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote:brbr Navashok, thank you so much for mentioning A R Rahman. I googled and clicked on the youtube listing and got this amazing video. If the url below doesn't work, just go to youtube. The song is Infinite Love. The images are spectacular especially the very last one which reminds me of an exhibit I once saw at a museum of natural history. But if I say more I would spoil the surprise.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
Hi Steve, I was referring to a heart shaped image. I thought it was very wonderful. Who are the Ambani Bros? Replying to some other posts: It was my Mom who got me into musicals: Gigi and South Pacific are 2 that I remember from that time in my life. Alan Rickman is one of my favorite actors. Good luck with your legal situation. As instructed by you, I did write to you offline about your guest. The one who had you staying up late 2 nights in a row(-: From: seventhray27 steve.sun...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 2:56 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras Of no importance, but at the very end you see that the video was sponsored by the Ambani Brothers of Reliance Industries. You won't find a lot of infinite love between those brothers. In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote:brbr Navashok, thank you so much for mentioning A R Rahman. I googled and clicked on the youtube listing and got this amazing video. If the url below doesn't work, just go to youtube. The song is Infinite Love. The images are spectacular especially the very last one which reminds me of an exhibit I once saw at a museum of natural history. But if I say more I would spoil the surprise.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
Mira Nair is a western trained filmmaker and why her movies are so much more than many Bollywood films. Gurinder Chadha (Bend It like Beckham is from the UK. Here films more reflect the clashes between western and eastern cultures. Bhaji on the Beach is particularly so and also a comment on generational differences between easterners. I used to rent a fair number of movies at an Indian grocer. Some of these were classic Indian films from the 1950s and 60s. I also noted that Indian filmmakers were struggling with dated formulas and age old censorship (some of it imposed by the British). A lot of films had the usual dancing around trees as a replacement for what in the west would have been love scenes (OMG, kissing!). The films that way would go way over a two hours but with a DVD hitting next chapter on the remote took one to the next screen past the dance scene and would reduce the movie to 90-100 minutes. The dance scenes seldom added anything to the movie and besides it was a queue for husbands and boyfriends to run out to the snack bar for more goodies. Since the grocers would often sell some of the DVDs I have a small collection of the some of the better ones and a couple that were made by filmmakers who had been in the US and returned to India and made actual narratives sans the dancing. There was also a phenomena I noted that also happens in the US (and undoubtedly other countries) that when there is an antagonistic government in power filmmakers make more daring movies. Hence when the conservative BJP was in power I saw better films than I'm seeing come out of India now with the Singh government. Artists always like to challenge those in power but less so if those in power are friendly. Hollywood isn't doing too well with their films even with friendly Obama. Bush was like a matador waving a red cape in front of them. As for tantra books. There aren't a lot of good ones because the good ones are written by actual tantrics not scholars who only can analyze from a distance. And of those books the meaning will only make sense if you are a practitioner. Regarding movies he recommended Jadu Tuna a funky Bollywood b-movie horror film from the 1970s. I located a VHS copy at the store and nursed it to play properly since the tape was well worn. Unfortunately it did have subtitles. Regarding meditation, my late tantra guru always said if you don't feel like meditating then don't because nothing will be gained from the meditation. In TM it was treated more devotional and skipping frowned on. In fact many folks in other traditions always mentioned how regular TMers were compared with their teaching. On 02/16/2013 05:42 AM, navashok wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote: This IS a gem, navashok, thanks for posting. Also replying to a few of your other recent posts: Yep. I am not an expert on Tantras like Bhairithu or Uncle Tantra, I got these two books in my shelf 'Gems of Tantras' by M.P. Pundit. Once, one of his small booklets, Adoration of the Divine Mother, long out of print, had a trans-formative effect on my life. I'm glad all your sins have already been washed away by Ganga (-: ;-) I was at three Kumbh Melas total, so I think that is overkill. That should really do it for the rest of this incarnation. Monsoon Wedding is my closest encounter with Bollywood. I enjoyed that and also Bend It Like Beckham which had some Bollywood elements. I have seen both. The later one is nice and funny, and the first one is really authentic, that's really how weddings are in India, I was told. Bollywood is a dream-factory, and most movies are junk. The ones I mentioned are among the good ones, there are others too, but the ones I saw were mostly romance. But then I like A.R. Rahman as composer. As for visiting saints, etc., it's my experience that life takes us where we need to go. For what? Well, to have more of it! You tell it, I know about it. PS I also like what Uncle Tantra replied to this topic. True, at some point, life becomes meditation, the barriers between the inner and the outer are torn apart. I still feel the pull inward, quite spontaneously. I think that's really what it is all about: when the pull is so strong, that meditation is unavoidable, this also with regard to the guy who follows Shivabalayogi. At that point, there is not the question IF you should meditate, WHY and for WHAT. But if you try to force yourself to do meditation, for many hours, when you do it to achieve something, maybe to become somebody, have exaggerated expectations, then it's indeed unhealthy. But I don't understand people like Ann, who don't enjoy meditation. I think she really doesn't know what meditation is. From: navashok no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Saturday, February 16, 2013 6:37
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Share Long sharelong60@... wrote: Hi Steve, I was referring to a heart shaped image. I thought it was very wonderful. Who are the Ambani Bros? Billionaire brothers from India. Replying to some other posts It was my Mom who got me into musicals: Gigi and South Pacific are 2 that I remember from that time in my life. Alan Rickman is one of my favorite actors. Good luck with your legal situation. It was the one I mentioned in some detail six to nine months back, in particular in some conversations with Robin. As instructed by you, I did write to you offline about your guest. The one who had you staying up late 2 nights in a row Just got it, and replied. I thought I had that e-mail address forwarded, but turns out I had not, so missed it. But now know where to look.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Gems from the Tantras
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Bhairitu noozguru@... wrote: snip Regarding meditation, my late tantra guru always said if you don't feel like meditating then don't because nothing will be gained from the meditation. In TM it was treated more devotional and skipping frowned on. FWIW, I never heard there was anything devotional about doing TM regularly. It was supposedly a matter of the effect on the physiology, like the standard (not just in TM) recommendation to eat and go to bed at regular times. TM was also compared to brushing your teeth. It wouldn't make any sense to say, If you don't feel like brushing your teeth then don't because nothing will be gained from brushing them.
