[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
From: anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. --- turquoiseb@... wrote : Barry simply reposted the excerpt sent to him by Vaj, because it is a comment on the issue of Neo-Advaitan pseudo-enlightenment we've discussed here many times. Barry does not believe anyone on this forum is enlightened, no matter how much they claim to be, and has said so many times. If the ones doing the claiming get their panties in a twist over it, he considers that proof that they're not enlightened, and thanks them for providing it. :-) For the record, Barry also does not read any FFL posts made by either Richard or Steve, and doesn't much care whether they stop eating and die, because that wouldn't affect him in any way. If Edg or Anartaxius fasted themselves to death stopped posting to FFL he would probably miss their writing for a day or so but he'd get over it. Seems to me people should get over themselves and get back to the business of being ordinary. :-) --- awoelflebater@... wrote : Yes, follow bawee's example and become very, very ordinary. There is nothing like being mediocre, average, run-of-the-mill, suburban, unmemorable, unexceptional, commonplace, humdrum, middle-of-the-road, dull, bland or conventional. Keep showing us how, bawee, so far you're doin' great. Somebody in the forum said, Barry is one of those unusual people with a talent for looking down on others from the gutter.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
You just over-intellectualized enlightenment. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but there don't seem to be ANY bliss-ninnies posting to FFL. If you got confused by the Maharishi, who made everything dirt simple, you must be really confused. What could be simpler than go in and meditate and come out and radiate? Go figure. On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: However over-intellectualizing above enlightenment can be a barrier toward growth. Besides once person steps over the edge they will realize what has happened. A good sign you are down the path is when you no longer are concerned about whether you are enlightened or not. It is NOT an intellectual exercise. Neither can you tell from someone's posts on the Internet whether they are enlightened or not. Some of the markers for behaviors that might indicate enlightenment that I see online might be good for indicating a bliss ninny instead. Personality may not change a whole lot because it will still be governed by the person's samskaras. Samskaras are sort of the mask that the inner light shines through. Personally I think in this area Maharishi confused people. It's much simpler in other traditions. On 09/14/2014 07:01 PM, anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Richard, in SBAL, Maharishi explains that our program is to meditate and act. And that if our actions are those that we enjoy, the integration of PC with waking, etc. is faster and smoother. On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 7:59 AM, Richard Williams pundits...@gmail.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: You just over-intellectualized enlightenment. Somebody correct me if I'm wrong, but there don't seem to be ANY bliss-ninnies posting to FFL. If you got confused by the Maharishi, who made everything dirt simple, you must be really confused. What could be simpler than go in and meditate and come out and radiate? Go figure. On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 2:40 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: However over-intellectualizing above enlightenment can be a barrier toward growth. Besides once person steps over the edge they will realize what has happened. A good sign you are down the path is when you no longer are concerned about whether you are enlightened or not. It is NOT an intellectual exercise. Neither can you tell from someone's posts on the Internet whether they are enlightened or not. Some of the markers for behaviors that might indicate enlightenment that I see online might be good for indicating a bliss ninny instead. Personality may not change a whole lot because it will still be governed by the person's samskaras. Samskaras are sort of the mask that the inner light shines through. Personally I think in this area Maharishi confused people. It's much simpler in other traditions. On 09/14/2014 07:01 PM, anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to,
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Bhairitu, I heard that Maharishi once said that if we have anything we want to change about ourselves, we better do it before CC. Because after CC we'll just witness it! I wish he had talked more about this kind of thing. On Monday, September 15, 2014 2:40 PM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: However over-intellectualizing above enlightenment can be a barrier toward growth. Besides once person steps over the edge they will realize what has happened. A good sign you are down the path is when you no longer are concerned about whether you are enlightened or not. It is NOT an intellectual exercise. Neither can you tell from someone's posts on the Internet whether they are enlightened or not. Some of the markers for behaviors that might indicate enlightenment that I see online might be good for indicating a bliss ninny instead. Personality may not change a whole lot because it will still be governed by the person's samskaras. Samskaras are sort of the mask that the inner light shines through. Personally I think in this area Maharishi confused people. It's much simpler in other traditions. On 09/14/2014 07:01 PM, anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
I would tend to agree with that. ;-) On 09/16/2014 07:47 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Bhairitu, I heard that Maharishi once said that if we have anything we want to change about ourselves, we better do it before CC. Because after CC we'll just witness it! I wish he had talked more about this kind of thing.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Hey Bhairitu, I heard a teleclass with John Gray the other day. One thing I'll say for him, that guy can talk non stop! He's pretty much given over the relationship business to his daughter. He's totally into health, having cured himself of Parkinson's 12 years ago via natural methods. And he's totally into brain chemistry. So many details! Here's one tidbit: 33 years ago autism was 1 in 10,000 births. Now it's 1 in 50! For boys, it's 1 in 42! And get this, in California, it's 1 in 20 boys! His theory is that it's the chlorine in all those California swimming pools that gives that state the highest rate in the US. On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 11:14 AM, Bhairitu noozg...@sbcglobal.net [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: I would tend to agree with that. ;-) On 09/16/2014 07:47 AM, Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Bhairitu, I heard that Maharishi once said that if we have anything we want to change about ourselves, we better do it before CC. Because after CC we'll just witness it! I wish he had talked more about this kind of thing.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
The rise of autism seems to parallel our ability to immerse ourselves in virtual realities - Get immersed in thoughts, and can't get out. Those numbers sound ridiculously high, but I am not trying to sell a course, whereas he is. The supposed chlorine link is lunacy, too - There are more pools, per capita, in FLORIDA than California. Sounds like Gray may be trying to cure his pre-glaucoma, and the method used, has given him some strange ideas. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Hey Bhairitu, I heard a teleclass with John Gray the other day. One thing I'll say for him, that guy can talk non stop! He's pretty much given over the relationship business to his daughter. He's totally into health, having cured himself of Parkinson's 12 years ago via natural methods. And he's totally into brain chemistry. So many details! Here's one tidbit: 33 years ago autism was 1 in 10,000 births. Now it's 1 in 50! For boys, it's 1 in 42! And get this, in California, it's 1 in 20 boys! His theory is that it's the chlorine in all those California swimming pools that gives that state the highest rate in the US. On Tuesday, September 16, 2014 11:14 AM, Bhairitu noozguru@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: I would tend to agree with that. ;-) On 09/16/2014 07:47 AM, Share Long sharelong60@... mailto:sharelong60@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Bhairitu, I heard that Maharishi once said that if we have anything we want to change about ourselves, we better do it before CC. Because after CC we'll just witness it! I wish he had talked more about this kind of thing.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
They all speak mostly about the methodologies. Yes, Adyashanti is the only person who seems to have spoken about the actual experience. --- fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Yeah, they do - Ramana, and MMY and Brahmananda Saraswati, and Adyashanti, all of those guys do it and talk about it, and write books - else we wouldn't have any examples. None of the characteristics of enlightenment are a secret, or something everyone dreams up independently. As for all of the above, being frauds and deluded, yeah it does look that way, from a certain perspective. If a person is culturally brainwashed, or feeble minded, or mentally unbalanced, any of those, then the people listed above seem like frauds and deluded. As for me having a long way to go, yes, it is a big place. --- jedi_spock@... wrote : --- fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : All the enlightened people talk about their experiences, No, they don't. like I am permanently established in silence, every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing. Why do you want me to repeat it? The enlightened people have been talking and writing about these things forever. They are all frauds or deluded. Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts. I didn't get what was so special about the story. And this other guy, going around telling people they are enlightened, anointing them like a pope. Maharishi declared that Robin was E. The whole thing is crazy. Just as enlightenment is self-evident, attempts to do anything more than describe it, live it, or achieve it, seem counter-productive, to me. You still have a long way to go. --- anartaxius@... wrote : Let's pretend I read this. What are the reasons that this statement you made to Barry does not apply to you, or say to me? Exactly how does one experientially and empirically parse the statement 'I am enlightened (or not)' versus, say, 'he is enlightened (or not). What is the criterion or criteria for making such a judgement? What is the ability developed in you that allows you to do this? How do you avoid making a mistake about it? How does this apply to techniques and teachings of other teachers, who also make the claim of enlightenment? How do you make a judgement concerning those teachers and their students, who may use different methods and have a different explanatory context? Maharishi said 'there is nothing new under the sun' and so, what is it about enlightenment that is different from what came before? Did he lie? Did he tell the truth? From: fleetwood_macncheese@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From anyone here who has said that they are enlightened, I haven't seen any unraveling. The reason being that if anyone achieves spiritual liberation using the techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, they know the difference between true spiritual freedom and delusion. I am not sure you do, though. You are one of the strongest mood makers on here, and for someone in the game so long, you have almost nothing to show for it. PS Let's pretend you didn't read this. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Xeno, Thank you for this reply. I find very little to take issue with, and quite a few of the lines, made me smile, , so thank you for that. There are things you've brought up, that I am going to mull over. (that's how I do things) Thank you again for a perspective I had not considered! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
The point I have been making since it first came up many years ago, was that enlightenment is achievable, by ordinary householder types, like me. This was in great doubt several years ago, but is now being more commonly accepted. I have never tried to be a teacher on here. I say what I say. There is no lesson plan, no agenda, and no interest in anything but conversation. In other words, this was never about me. However I do enjoy talking about my experiences. Though the phrases seem trite to you, I have no interest in rephrasing what others have said. Yes, I am creative, but using it to explain enlightenment, to someone wholly ignorant of that state, doesn't hold a lot of appeal to me. Have at it - I find those who criticize me the most, have made the least progress. Your buddy Barry, who so impresses you so with his passport, is clearly a waking state phenomenon, and my progress vs. his lack of same, really, really bugs him. Doesn't mean a thing, except the poor kid has a terribly bruised ego. Sincerely, A life in enlightenment ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
As usual, it's all about you. I did enjoy the third person angle though. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. Barry simply reposted the excerpt sent to him by Vaj, because it is a comment on the issue of Neo-Advaitan pseudo-enlightenment we've discussed here many times. Barry does not believe anyone on this forum is enlightened, no matter how much they claim to be, and has said so many times. If the ones doing the claiming get their panties in a twist over it, he considers that proof that they're not enlightened, and thanks them for providing it. :-) For the record, Barry also does not read any FFL posts made by either Richard or Steve, and doesn't much care whether they stop eating and die, because that wouldn't affect him in any way. If Edg or Anartaxius fasted themselves to death stopped posting to FFL he would probably miss their writing for a day or so but he'd get over it. Seems to me people should get over themselves and get back to the business of being ordinary. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
MMY and Guru Dev do as well, speak about actual experience. Everything from them is first person experience. Haven't read enough Ramana to say. See, everybody talks about it. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jedi_spock@... wrote : They all speak mostly about the methodologies. Yes, Adyashanti is the only person who seems to have spoken about the actual experience. --- fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Yeah, they do - Ramana, and MMY and Brahmananda Saraswati, and Adyashanti, all of those guys do it and talk about it, and write books - else we wouldn't have any examples. None of the characteristics of enlightenment are a secret, or something everyone dreams up independently. As for all of the above, being frauds and deluded, yeah it does look that way, from a certain perspective. If a person is culturally brainwashed, or feeble minded, or mentally unbalanced, any of those, then the people listed above seem like frauds and deluded. As for me having a long way to go, yes, it is a big place. --- jedi_spock@... wrote : --- fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : All the enlightened people talk about their experiences, No, they don't. like I am permanently established in silence, every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing. Why do you want me to repeat it? The enlightened people have been talking and writing about these things forever. They are all frauds or deluded. Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts. I didn't get what was so special about the story. And this other guy, going around telling people they are enlightened, anointing them like a pope. Maharishi declared that Robin was E. The whole thing is crazy. Just as enlightenment is self-evident, attempts to do anything more than describe it, live it, or achieve it, seem counter-productive, to me. You still have a long way to go. --- anartaxius@... wrote : Let's pretend I read this. What are the reasons that this statement you made to Barry does not apply to you, or say to me? Exactly how does one experientially and empirically parse the statement 'I am enlightened (or not)' versus, say, 'he is enlightened (or not). What is the criterion or criteria for making such a judgement? What is the ability developed in you that allows you to do this? How do you avoid making a mistake about it? How does this apply to techniques and teachings of other teachers, who also make the claim of enlightenment? How do you make a judgement concerning those teachers and their students, who may use different methods and have a different explanatory context? Maharishi said 'there is nothing new under the sun' and so, what is it about enlightenment that is different from what came before? Did he lie? Did he tell the truth? From: fleetwood_macncheese@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From anyone here who has said that they are enlightened, I haven't seen any unraveling. The reason being that if anyone achieves spiritual liberation using the techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, they know the difference between true spiritual freedom and delusion. I am not sure you do, though. You are one of the strongest mood makers on here, and for someone in the game so long, you have almost nothing to show for it. PS Let's pretend you didn't read this. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. I cannot believe you needed to show us what the intent of that little dipshit story was. Do people actually fake their enlightenment? Bizarre. I can see why you miss much of what I describe. It is simply that you have a low IQ. Not a big deal, but your ponderous nature at first appears like intense intellectual cogitation, but I now realize is you, simply peering through your own fog, at ordinary life. Barry has the same problem, as does Vaj - all of you, so unfulfilled within. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. Barry simply reposted the excerpt sent to him by Vaj, because it is a comment on the issue of Neo-Advaitan pseudo-enlightenment we've discussed here many times. Barry does not believe anyone on this forum is enlightened, no matter how much they claim to be, and has said so many times. If the ones doing the claiming get their panties in a twist over it, he considers that proof that they're not enlightened, and thanks them for providing it. :-) For the record, Barry also does not read any FFL posts made by either Richard or Steve, and doesn't much care whether they stop eating and die, because that wouldn't affect him in any way. If Edg or Anartaxius fasted themselves to death stopped posting to FFL he would probably miss their writing for a day or so but he'd get over it. Seems to me people should get over themselves and get back to the business of being ordinary. :-) Yes, follow bawee's example and become very, very ordinary. There is nothing like being mediocre, average, run-of-the-mill, suburban, unmemorable, unexceptional, commonplace, humdrum, middle-of-the-road, dull, bland or conventional. Keep showing us how, bawee, so far you're doin' great.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Exactly, Ann! This enlightenment or whatever it is, means living life, all cylinders - trying the mysterious, the scary, the achingly beautiful, with possible trepidation, all of it, yet, pushing through that last boundary, to experience the world, always, in its freshness, liveliness, and endless creativity. I remember doing so much of that, for my entire life, so many adventures. It seems like bawee and some of the others have possibly done a few interesting things during their lives, and now they mostly lie around and reminisce, casting a droll, cynical and exhausted perspective, everywhere. Pardon my French, but, UHHH! BARF!! HOLY FUCK! Life is for continued growth and enjoyment, and the wiser we get, the more there is to enjoy. I was cutting trails in the woods with my chainsaw (luckily I don't play golf), the other day, and later realized the wildlife were instantly using the improved trails. Later in the day, coyote voices rose out of the east canyon. Still later, water bombers from Cal Fire, put out a blaze a couple of ridges away, and the moon that night lit the landscape like lunar snow. That's ONE FUCKING DAY. They are all like that - endless adventures and discoveries, some big, like mountain climbing, and some small, like a sweet phone call from my daughter. What I see in those denigrating enlightenment, is an absence of this life's blood, this vigor, vitality, and endless wonder. Enlightenment is not some contest, or game to reach the bottom first. It happens, and we are the better for it. Not that it is interesting by itself, but ;like the hershey's syrup I poured over vanilla ice cream, last night, it makes the whole thing more delicious. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. Barry simply reposted the excerpt sent to him by Vaj, because it is a comment on the issue of Neo-Advaitan pseudo-enlightenment we've discussed here many times. Barry does not believe anyone on this forum is enlightened, no matter how much they claim to be, and has said so many times. If the ones doing the claiming get their panties in a twist over it, he considers that proof that they're not enlightened, and thanks them for providing it. :-) For the record, Barry also does not read any FFL posts made by either Richard or
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. I cannot believe you needed to show us what the intent of that little dipshit story was. Do people actually fake their enlightenment? Bizarre. I can see why you miss much of what I describe. It is simply that you have a low IQ. Not a big deal, but your ponderous nature at first appears like intense intellectual cogitation, but I now realize is you, simply peering through your own fog, at ordinary life. Barry has the same problem, as does Vaj - all of you, so unfulfilled within. Xeno, although seemingly benign, is a bit of a plodder as well. While I sometimes appreciate his level tone and reasonably civilized manner I find I just can't figure out the static and bloodless manner in which he describes and analyzes things. If his posts are anything like he is in person then he resembles wallpaper more than a living, breathing creature. This post will probably relegate me to the fluff folder in the future, I'm afraid. And I so liked being the sole poster in the Canada file.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Exactly, Ann! This enlightenment or whatever it is, means living life, all cylinders - trying the mysterious, the scary, the achingly beautiful, with possible trepidation, all of it, yet, pushing through that last boundary, to experience the world, always, in its freshness, liveliness, and endless creativity. I remember doing so much of that, for my entire life, so many adventures. It seems like bawee and some of the others have possibly done a few interesting things during their lives, and now they mostly lie around and reminisce, casting a droll, cynical and exhausted perspective, everywhere. Pardon my French, but, UHHH! BARF!! HOLY FUCK! Life is for continued growth and enjoyment, and the wiser we get, the more there is to enjoy. I was cutting trails in the woods with my chainsaw (luckily I don't play golf), the other day, and later realized the wildlife were instantly using the improved trails. Later in the day, coyote voices rose out of the east canyon. Still later, water bombers from Cal Fire, put out a blaze a couple of ridges away, and the moon that night lit the landscape like lunar snow. That's ONE FUCKING DAY. They are all like that - endless adventures and discoveries, some big, like mountain climbing, and some small, like a sweet phone call from my daughter. What I see in those denigrating enlightenment, is an absence of this life's blood, this vigor, vitality, and endless wonder. Enlightenment is not some contest, or game to reach the bottom first. It happens, and we are the better for it. Not that it is interesting by itself, but ;like the hershey's syrup I poured over vanilla ice cream, last night, it makes the whole thing more delicious. Wheee! I love it. You describe how I live, or at least attempt to. Every flutter of the heart, every leap of adrenaline, all the sublime moments when you lie listening to a distant owl or the mating frogs on the pond outside your window - all of these things are beyond richness and gifts. I lack the desire to define it. I am such a visceral person. I love to cram every sense I have with all of the input I can find, I welcome experience. Pressing my nose against the velvet nostrils of my horse and sucking it all in, burying my face in the doggy fur of my mutts and inhaling deeply, walking face upturned in the pouring rain - how much better does it get than that? If there is something even greater than this and it's called enlightenment then wowzer. I'm pretty content right now, feeling it all - having to be brave when courage doesn't seem to be forthcoming, being sad because you have just had a loss so deep it seems to know no limits and your guts are turned inside out. And you sit in this and burn and feel until somehow it is lifted away. This is life, this is what is worth knowing and living. And yea, I like lots of chocolate syrup but it HAS to be vanilla ice cream. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Yes, I find his pseudo-curiosity, static and annoying. Needy, too. Sorry about your upcoming banishment from the Canada folder. We'll get through this together. Pinky swear. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. I cannot believe you needed to show us what the intent of that little dipshit story was. Do people actually fake their enlightenment? Bizarre. I can see why you miss much of what I describe. It is simply that you have a low IQ. Not a big deal, but your ponderous nature at first appears like intense intellectual cogitation, but I now realize is you, simply peering through your own fog, at ordinary life. Barry has the same problem, as does Vaj - all of you, so unfulfilled within. Xeno, although seemingly benign, is a bit of a plodder as well. While I sometimes appreciate his level tone and reasonably civilized manner I find I just can't figure out the static and bloodless manner in which he describes and analyzes things. If his posts are anything like he is in person then he resembles wallpaper more than a living, breathing creature. This post will probably relegate me to the fluff folder in the future, I'm afraid. And I so liked being the sole poster in the Canada file.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 12:32 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: *From:* anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. Barry simply reposted the excerpt sent to him by Vaj, because it is a comment on the issue of Neo-Advaitan pseudo-enlightenment we've discussed here many times. The Neo-Advaitan psudo-enlightenment has nothing to do with Sam Harris' book - Awake. It was a clumsy attempt by Barry to confuse. Besides, neither Ramana Maharishi nor Poonja-ji are considered to be Neo-Advaitan. Go figure. Barry does not believe anyone on this forum is enlightened, For the record, Barry once posted to FFL that he did not believe in enlightenment, therefore he is NOT in the enlightenment tradition of Sam Harris - or anybody else except for a few rank materialists posting to FFL. no matter how much they claim to be, and has said so many times. If the ones doing the claiming get their panties in a twist over it, he considers that proof that they're not enlightened, and thanks them for providing it. :-) For the record, Barry also does not read any FFL posts made by either Richard or Steve, and doesn't much care whether they stop eating and die, because that wouldn't affect him in any way. If Edg or Anartaxius fasted themselves to death stopped posting to FFL he would probably miss their writing for a day or so but he'd get over it. Seems to me people should get over themselves and get back to the business of being ordinary. :-) Ordinary people do not levitate, Mr. Wright.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Alright, it's settled then - only two informants on this list has actually read Sam Harris's new book, Awake. On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 8:48 AM, fleetwood_macnche...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Yes, I find his pseudo-curiosity, static and annoying. Needy, too. Sorry about your upcoming banishment from the Canada folder. We'll get through this together. Pinky swear. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. I cannot believe you needed to show us what the intent of that little dipshit story was. Do people actually fake their enlightenment? Bizarre. I can see why you miss much of what I describe. It is simply that you have a low IQ. Not a big deal, but your ponderous nature at first appears like intense intellectual cogitation, but I now realize is you, simply peering through your own fog, at ordinary life. Barry has the same problem, as does Vaj - all of you, so unfulfilled within. *Xeno, although seemingly benign, is a bit of a plodder as well. While I sometimes appreciate his level tone and reasonably civilized manner I find I just can't figure out the static and bloodless manner in which he describes and analyzes things. If his posts are anything like he is in person then he resembles wallpaper more than a living, breathing creature. This post will probably relegate me to the fluff folder in the future, I'm afraid. And I so liked being the sole poster in the Canada file.*
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
However over-intellectualizing above enlightenment can be a barrier toward growth. Besides once person steps over the edge they will realize what has happened. A good sign you are down the path is when you no longer are concerned about whether you are enlightened or not. It is NOT an intellectual exercise. Neither can you tell from someone's posts on the Internet whether they are enlightened or not. Some of the markers for behaviors that might indicate enlightenment that I see online might be good for indicating a bliss ninny instead. Personality may not change a whole lot because it will still be governed by the person's samskaras. Samskaras are sort of the mask that the inner light shines through. Personally I think in this area Maharishi confused people. It's much simpler in other traditions. On 09/14/2014 07:01 PM, anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Yep, parsing stuff down too much gets away from direct experience. I enjoy MMY's stages, but they were very confusing, viewed as a linear path, which of course, my ego craved - the 1,2,3 guide to unlocking the universe. That does seem to be the key; losing the key, the goal, and pretty much everything, except that constant desire for more. Letting the desire form the path, vs. desiring to follow a prescribed one, leads in the right direction. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, noozguru@... wrote : However over-intellectualizing above enlightenment can be a barrier toward growth. Besides once person steps over the edge they will realize what has happened. A good sign you are down the path is when you no longer are concerned about whether you are enlightened or not. It is NOT an intellectual exercise. Neither can you tell from someone's posts on the Internet whether they are enlightened or not. Some of the markers for behaviors that might indicate enlightenment that I see online might be good for indicating a bliss ninny instead. Personality may not change a whole lot because it will still be governed by the person's samskaras. Samskaras are sort of the mask that the inner light shines through. Personally I think in this area Maharishi confused people. It's much simpler in other traditions. On 09/14/2014 07:01 PM, anartaxius@... mailto:anartaxius@... [FairfieldLife] wrote: Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
From: awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 1:30 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster Xeno, although seemingly benign, is a bit of a plodder as well. While I sometimes appreciate his level tone and reasonably civilized manner I find I just can't figure out the static and bloodless manner in which he describes and analyzes things. If his posts are anything like he is in person then he resembles wallpaper more than a living, breathing creature. This post will probably relegate me to the fluff folder in the future, I'm afraid. And I so liked being the sole poster in the Canada file. No Ann, you will remain in the Canada folder. Ever see the 1956 movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers, where duplicates of people, soulless and robotic , produced in strange, large, peapod-like incubators, replace the cast of characters one by one. The pod people are in bliss all the time, but no emotion. I am one of those. Beware of finding one of these pods on your property. 'As each pod reaches full development, it assimilates the physical characteristics, memories, and personalities of each sleeping person placed near it; these duplicates are devoid of all human emotion.' http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg View on basementrejects.com Preview by Yahoo Sleep well.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 1:30 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster Xeno, although seemingly benign, is a bit of a plodder as well. While I sometimes appreciate his level tone and reasonably civilized manner I find I just can't figure out the static and bloodless manner in which he describes and analyzes things. If his posts are anything like he is in person then he resembles wallpaper more than a living, breathing creature. This post will probably relegate me to the fluff folder in the future, I'm afraid. And I so liked being the sole poster in the Canada file. No Ann, you will remain in the Canada folder. Ever see the 1956 movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers, where duplicates of people, soulless and robotic , produced in strange, large, peapod-like incubators, replace the cast of characters one by one. The pod people are in bliss all the time, but no emotion. I am one of those. Beware of finding one of these pods on your property. 'As each pod reaches full development, it assimilates the physical characteristics, memories, and personalities of each sleeping person placed near it; these duplicates are devoid of all human emotion.' http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg View on basementrejects.com http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg Preview by Yahoo Sleep well. HA, HA. Thanks Xeno, you have pulled on your deepest resources for humor and creativity here. I really appreciate it. And believe you me, I am so thankful I can remain in the Canada folder for a while longer, you are indeed generous, not to mention benevolent - it means a lot. And now I feel bad having called you wallpaper. After this post I do believe you are more like a fern, a slow-waving harmless fern. Show me more, what else can you be? Oh, and yes, I have seen two versions of The Body Snatchers. I love the B and W version but the later one isn't too bad either. Superbly creepy in lots of ways. I love B grade horror movies, especially BW.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 1:30 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster Xeno, although seemingly benign, is a bit of a plodder as well. While I sometimes appreciate his level tone and reasonably civilized manner I find I just can't figure out the static and bloodless manner in which he describes and analyzes things. If his posts are anything like he is in person then he resembles wallpaper more than a living, breathing creature. This post will probably relegate me to the fluff folder in the future, I'm afraid. And I so liked being the sole poster in the Canada file. No Ann, you will remain in the Canada folder. Ever see the 1956 movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers, where duplicates of people, soulless and robotic , produced in strange, large, peapod-like incubators, replace the cast of characters one by one. The pod people are in bliss all the time, but no emotion. I am one of those. Beware of finding one of these pods on your property. 'As each pod reaches full development, it assimilates the physical characteristics, memories, and personalities of each sleeping person placed near it; these duplicates are devoid of all human emotion.' http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg View on basementrejects.com http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg Preview by Yahoo Sleep well. HA, HA. Thanks Xeno, you have pulled on your deepest resources for humor and creativity here. I really appreciate it. And believe you me, I am so thankful I can remain in the Canada folder for a while longer, you are indeed generous, not to mention benevolent - it means a lot. And now I feel bad having called you wallpaper. After this post I do believe you are more like a fern, a slow-waving harmless fern. Show me more, what else can you be? Oh, and yes, I have seen two versions of The Body Snatchers. I love the B and W version but the later one isn't too bad either. Superbly creepy in lots of ways. I love B grade horror movies, especially BW. Of course, this is the classic of the classics.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
From: awoelfleba...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, September 16, 2014 2:29 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : From: awoelflebater@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, September 15, 2014 1:30 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster Xeno, although seemingly benign, is a bit of a plodder as well. While I sometimes appreciate his level tone and reasonably civilized manner I find I just can't figure out the static and bloodless manner in which he describes and analyzes things. If his posts are anything like he is in person then he resembles wallpaper more than a living, breathing creature. This post will probably relegate me to the fluff folder in the future, I'm afraid. And I so liked being the sole poster in the Canada file. No Ann, you will remain in the Canada folder. Ever see the 1956 movie Invasion of the Body Snatchers, where duplicates of people, soulless and robotic , produced in strange, large, peapod-like incubators, replace the cast of characters one by one. The pod people are in bliss all the time, but no emotion. I am one of those. Beware of finding one of these pods on your property. 'As each pod reaches full development, it assimilates the physical characteristics, memories, and personalities of each sleeping person placed near it; these duplicates are devoid of all human emotion.' http://basementrejects.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/invasion-of-the-body-snatchers-1956-pods-600x300.jpg View on basementrejects.com Preview by Yahoo Sleep well. HA, HA. Thanks Xeno, you have pulled on your deepest resources for humor and creativity here. I really appreciate it. And believe you me, I am so thankful I can remain in the Canada folder for a while longer, you are indeed generous, not to mention benevolent - it means a lot. And now I feel bad having called you wallpaper. After this post I do believe you are more like a fern, a slow-waving harmless fern. Show me more, what else can you be? Oh, and yes, I have seen two versions of The Body Snatchers. I love the B and W version but the later one isn't too bad either. Superbly creepy in lots of ways. I love B grade horror movies, especially BW. Of course, this is the classic of the classics. http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/03/Gort_Firing.jpg View on upload.wikimedia.org Preview by Yahoo Gort, the humanoid robot was apparently a seven foot+ actor, although I read somewhere he worked in a hotel, and his height got him the job. There were two suits, one laced up in the back, and one laced up in the front. There is at least one scene in the movie where you can see the laces as the robot walks past the camera. My bedtime. And I don't have to look for pods. I have already been replaced. Live long and prosper.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
A Robin in UC, thinks Khomeini is also in UC.! It's nutty that who get enlightened and come to an internet forum to announce that they are enlightened. That is never supposed to happen. Judy and the mean girls had descended to the level, where they lick Robin's boots. I, zarzari, emptybill, had such a difficult time with her. Read below and weep, all the enlightened pronouncements and declarations of Khomeini in Unity consciousness.! A fatwa by the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran. A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister. According to a special religious decree issued by Ayatollah Khomeini, virgin women prisoners must be raped before execution to prevent their going to heaven. A Guard conducts the rape the night before their murder. The next day, the religious judge at the prison issues a marriage certificate and sends it to the victim’s family, along with a box of sweets. Ayatollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements: A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. --- turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. Hold it Barry I gave my reason for not reading Harris' book. It is not that I assume that I know everything. I do not. That is evidenced by the voracious appetite fro books. I consume books by the hundreds. And ask questions of the authors. And often for lasting relations with them. The reason I gave for not reading this particular book is that you had spoiled it for me, even before I have seen a copy. So it's your stink posts. Now you continue to annoy by not posting about a book you are reading, or have read, but rather a cut-and-paste from your friend. This is again annoying. It even makes me question whether there is any 'friend' involved. Change if you can; this is my best advice. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience. When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked if she could join us. Because she was such good company, we encouraged her to come along. A few of us were also curious to see how her realization would appear in another context. And so it came to pass that a woman whose enlightenment had just been confirmed by one of the greatest living exponents of Advaita Vedanta was in the room when we
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
But Dan, it is a really good story. Now, does my saying this mean I won't get any more presents from you? (-: On Sunday, September 14, 2014 6:11 AM, danfriedman2002 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. Hold it Barry I gave my reason for not reading Harris' book. It is not that I assume that I know everything. I do not. That is evidenced by the voracious appetite fro books. I consume books by the hundreds. And ask questions of the authors. And often for lasting relations with them. The reason I gave for not reading this particular book is that you had spoiled it for me, even before I have seen a copy. So it's your stink posts. Now you continue to annoy by not posting about a book you are reading, or have read, but rather a cut-and-paste from your friend. This is again annoying. It even makes me question whether there is any 'friend' involved. Change if you can; this is my best advice. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience. When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked if she could join us. Because she was such good company, we encouraged her to come along. A few of us were also curious to see how her
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jedi_spock@... wrote : A Robin in UC, thinks Khomeini is also in UC.! What would it take to keep you on topic? You just hijacked a perfectly good thread about Sam Harris to interject old news about Robin and Khomeini. Judy already trashed these accusations at Robin along time ago. Also, you are supposed to read Robin's old books BEFORE you post your comments. You are not even making any sense! It's nutty that who get enlightened and come to an internet forum to announce that they are enlightened. That is never supposed to happen. Judy and the mean girls had descended to the level, where they lick Robin's boots. I, zarzari, emptybill, had such a difficult time with her. Read below and weep, all the enlightened pronouncements and declarations of Khomeini in Unity consciousness.! A fatwa by the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran...
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
From anyone here who has said that they are enlightened, I haven't seen any unraveling. The reason being that if anyone achieves spiritual liberation using the techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, they know the difference between true spiritual freedom and delusion. I am not sure you do, though. You are one of the strongest mood makers on here, and for someone in the game so long, you have almost nothing to show for it. PS Let's pretend you didn't read this. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience. When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked if she could join us. Because she was such good company, we encouraged her to come along. A few of us were also curious to see how her realization would appear in another context. And so it came to pass that a woman whose enlightenment had just been confirmed by one of the greatest living exponents of Advaita Vedanta was in the room when we received our first teachings from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, who was generally thought to be one of the greatest living Dzogchen masters. Of all the Buddhist teachings, those of Dzogchen most closely resemble the teachings of Advaita. The two
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. You failed to admit that Sam Harris just trashed your pet free will theory. Something tells me you have no idea what Sam Harris thinks. Go figure. Willy, Willy, Willy, you're such an idiot sometimes it actually inspires awe. :-) I'm not interested in cheap, cheezy shit you can find on the Net about the Cathars... From: Uncle Tantra Subject: Re: Catharism Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: 2003-09-11 01:26:49 PST
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Are you truly a raving lunatic, or simply impersonating one? No, its not an Advaita question. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jedi_spock@... wrote : A Robin in UC, thinks Khomeini is also in UC.! It's nutty that who get enlightened and come to an internet forum to announce that they are enlightened. That is never supposed to happen. Judy and the mean girls had descended to the level, where they lick Robin's boots. I, zarzari, emptybill, had such a difficult time with her. Read below and weep, all the enlightened pronouncements and declarations of Khomeini in Unity consciousness.! A fatwa by the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran. A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister. According to a special religious decree issued by Ayatollah Khomeini, virgin women prisoners must be raped before execution to prevent their going to heaven. A Guard conducts the rape the night before their murder. The next day, the religious judge at the prison issues a marriage certificate and sends it to the victim’s family, along with a box of sweets. Ayatollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements: A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. --- turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
In fact, the last time I was droning on about my life in enlightenment here on FFL, you posted something in huge bold type, screaming profanely that I was not enlightened. You Really Lost It, bawee. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : From anyone here who has said that they are enlightened, I haven't seen any unraveling. The reason being that if anyone achieves spiritual liberation using the techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, they know the difference between true spiritual freedom and delusion. I am not sure you do, though. You are one of the strongest mood makers on here, and for someone in the game so long, you have almost nothing to show for it. PS Let's pretend you didn't read this. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience. When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked if she could join us. Because she was such good company, we encouraged her to come along. A few of us were also curious to see how her realization would appear in another context. And so it came to pass that a woman whose enlightenment had just been confirmed by one of the greatest living exponents of Advaita
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
--- turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. --- punditster@... wrote : You failed to admit that Sam Harris just trashed your pet free will theory. Something tells me you have no idea what Sam Harris thinks. Go figure. We don't have 100% percent freewill. Intellectual entities have partial freewill. The universe is partially deterministic and partially random. Willy, Willy, Willy, you're such an idiot sometimes it actually inspires awe. :-) I'm not interested in cheap, cheezy shit you can find on the Net about the Cathars... From: Uncle Tantra Subject: Re: Catharism Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: 2003-09-11 01:26:49 PST
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : But Dan, it is a really good story. Now, does my saying this mean I won't get any more presents from you? (-: Dearest Share, I put more in to delivery. Check your box. d On Sunday, September 14, 2014 6:11 AM, danfriedman2002 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. Hold it Barry I gave my reason for not reading Harris' book. It is not that I assume that I know everything. I do not. That is evidenced by the voracious appetite fro books. I consume books by the hundreds. And ask questions of the authors. And often for lasting relations with them. The reason I gave for not reading this particular book is that you had spoiled it for me, even before I have seen a copy. So it's your stink posts. Now you continue to annoy by not posting about a book you are reading, or have read, but rather a cut-and-paste from your friend. This is again annoying. It even makes me question whether there is any 'friend' involved. Change if you can; this is my best advice. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience. When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Dude, you assume too much. There is far more to this than you have ever dreamed of. --- fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Are you truly a raving lunatic, or simply impersonating one? No, its not an Advaita question. --- jedi_spock@... wrote : A Robin in UC, thinks Khomeini is also in UC.! It's nutty that who get enlightened and come to an internet forum to announce that they are enlightened. That is never supposed to happen. Judy and the mean girls had descended to the level, where they lick Robin's boots. I, zarzari, emptybill, had such a difficult time with her. Read below and weep, all the enlightened pronouncements and declarations of Khomeini in Unity consciousness.! A fatwa by the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran. A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister. According to a special religious decree issued by Ayatollah Khomeini, virgin women prisoners must be raped before execution to prevent their going to heaven. A Guard conducts the rape the night before their murder. The next day, the religious judge at the prison issues a marriage certificate and sends it to the victim’s family, along with a box of sweets. Ayatollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements: A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. --- turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people,
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : In fact, the last time I was droning on about my life in enlightenment here on FFL, you posted something in huge bold type, screaming profanely that I was not enlightened. You Really Lost It, bawee. I had assumed that Fairfieldlife was an appropriate forum for discussing the experience of enlightenment. And less appropriate a forum for discussing cafe life. Did I get something wrong? Again! P.S. There is a Yahoo Group, that I am a member of, entitled FairfieldCafe. Maybe a better venue for that Cafe Talk? Or ladies who lunch. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : From anyone here who has said that they are enlightened, I haven't seen any unraveling. The reason being that if anyone achieves spiritual liberation using the techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, they know the difference between true spiritual freedom and delusion. I am not sure you do, though. You are one of the strongest mood makers on here, and for someone in the game so long, you have almost nothing to show for it. PS Let's pretend you didn't read this. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji Is it just me, or is anyone else out there that is confused: what does Poonja-ji have to do with Sam Harris? We already went over this with emptybill - about the relation between Hindu Advaita and Buddhist Vajrayana. Sam Harris has nothing to do with Poonja-ji. Go figure. claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience. When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked if she could join us. Because she was such good company, we encouraged her to come along. A few of us were also curious to see how her realization would appear in another context. And so it came to pass that a woman whose enlightenment had just been confirmed by one of the greatest living exponents of Advaita Vedanta was in the room when we received our first teachings from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, who was generally thought to be one of the greatest living Dzogchen masters. Of all the Buddhist teachings, those of Dzogchen most closely resemble the teachings of Advaita. The two traditions seek to provoke the same insight into the nonduality of consciousness, but, generally speaking, only Dzogchen makes it absolutely clear that one must practice this insight to
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : But Dan, it is a really good story. Now, does my saying this mean I won't get any more presents from you? (-: Sam Harris studied and practiced with Dilgo Khyentse Rinpoche, a Tibetan who was a Vajrayana master. Harris has nothing to do with Poonja-ji and Hindu Advaita. It may have been a good story but it belongs in the thread MMY' Advaita, not on the thread about Sam Harris' new book. Sam Harris book reviews on Amazon: Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion http://tinyurl.com/m7fmkgk http://tinyurl.com/m7fmkgk Amazon.com: Customer Reviews: Waking Up: A Gui... http://tinyurl.com/m7fmkgk Find helpful customer reviews and review ratings for Waking Up: A Guide to Spirituality Without Religion at Amazon.com. Read honest and unbias... View on tinyurl.com http://tinyurl.com/m7fmkgk Preview by Yahoo On Sunday, September 14, 2014 6:11 AM, danfriedman2002 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. Hold it Barry I gave my reason for not reading Harris' book. It is not that I assume that I know everything. I do not. That is evidenced by the voracious appetite fro books. I consume books by the hundreds. And ask questions of the authors. And often for lasting relations with them. The reason I gave for not reading this particular book is that you had spoiled it for me, even before I have seen a copy. So it's your stink posts. Now you continue to annoy by not posting about a book you are reading, or have read, but rather a cut-and-paste from your friend. This is again annoying. It even makes me question whether there is any 'friend' involved. Change if you can; this is my best advice. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jedi_spock@... wrote : Dude, you assume too much. There is far more to this than you have ever dreamed of. What does Robin and the Ayatollah have to do with Sam Harris? Only a raving maniac would confuse the two with Sam Harris. --- fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Are you truly a raving lunatic, or simply impersonating one? No, its not an Advaita question. --- jedi_spock@... wrote : A Robin in UC, thinks Khomeini is also in UC.! It's nutty that who get enlightened and come to an internet forum to announce that they are enlightened. That is never supposed to happen. Judy and the mean girls had descended to the level, where they lick Robin's boots. I, zarzari, emptybill, had such a difficult time with her. Read below and weep, all the enlightened pronouncements and declarations of Khomeini in Unity consciousness.! A fatwa by the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran. A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister. According to a special religious decree issued by Ayatollah Khomeini, virgin women prisoners must be raped before execution to prevent their going to heaven. A Guard conducts the rape the night before their murder. The next day, the religious judge at the prison issues a marriage certificate and sends it to the victim’s family, along with a box of sweets. Ayatollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements: A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. --- turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : In fact, the last time I was droning on about my life in enlightenment here on FFL, you posted something in huge bold type, screaming profanely that I was not enlightened. You Really Lost It, bawee. Dan wrote: I had assumed that Fairfieldlife was an appropriate forum for discussing the experience of enlightenment. And less appropriate a forum for discussing cafe life. Did I get something wrong? Again! P.S. There is a Yahoo Group, that I am a member of, entitled FairfieldCafe. Maybe a better venue for that Cafe Talk? Or ladies who lunch. So, I don't think that Barry or Edge would be allowed to post to FairfieldCafe. The moderator over there probably wouldn't take kindly to being called an internet terrorist or a pedophile and to stop eating and die. About the only place informants can get way with that kind of talk is FairieldLife or 4chan. The only place on social media that I know of where an informant can get away with insinuate that a Jew is a Nazi is on Rick's group. Go figure. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : From anyone here who has said that they are enlightened, I haven't seen any unraveling. The reason being that if anyone achieves spiritual liberation using the techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, they know the difference between true spiritual freedom and delusion. I am not sure you do, though. You are one of the strongest mood makers on here, and for someone in the game so long, you have almost nothing to show for it. PS Let's pretend you didn't read this. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
--- turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. --- punditster@... wrote : You failed to admit that Sam Harris just trashed your pet free will theory. Something tells me you have no idea what Sam Harris thinks. Go figure. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jedi_spock@... wrote : We don't have 100% percent freewill. Intellectual entities have partial freewill. The universe is partially deterministic and partially random. According to Sam Harris, notions of free will don't even make any sense. We are either free or we are bound. If free, there would be no need of yoga; if bound, by what means can we free ourselves? Karma means action and cause and effect. Everything and everyone is subject to karma - with no exception, from the highest deva down to a single blade of grass. Anyone would know this if they read any of Sam Harris' books or his online blog. Willy, Willy, Willy, you're such an idiot sometimes it actually inspires awe. :-) I'm not interested in cheap, cheezy shit you can find on the Net about the Cathars... From: Uncle Tantra Subject: Re: Catharism Newsgroups: alt.meditation.transcendental Date: 2003-09-11 01:26:49 PST
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Let's pretend I read this. What are the reasons that this statement you made to Barry does not apply to you, or say to me? Exactly how does one experientially and empirically parse the statement 'I am enlightened (or not)' versus, say, 'he is enlightened (or not). What is the criterion or criteria for making such a judgement? What is the ability developed in you that allows you to do this? How do you avoid making a mistake about it? How does this apply to techniques and teachings of other teachers, who also make the claim of enlightenment? How do you make a judgement concerning those teachers and their students, who may use different methods and have a different explanatory context? Maharishi said 'there is nothing new under the sun' and so, what is it about enlightenment that is different from what came before? Did he lie? Did he tell the truth? From: fleetwood_macnche...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2014 12:16 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster From anyone here who has said that they are enlightened, I haven't seen any unraveling. The reason being that if anyone achieves spiritual liberation using the techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, they know the difference between true spiritual freedom and delusion. I am not sure you do, though. You are one of the strongest mood makers on here, and for someone in the game so long, you have almost nothing to show for it. PS Let's pretend you didn't read this. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Thanks, Dan, I got it. On Sunday, September 14, 2014 7:32 AM, danfriedman2002 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : But Dan, it is a really good story. Now, does my saying this mean I won't get any more presents from you? (-: Dearest Share, I put more in to delivery. Check your box. d On Sunday, September 14, 2014 6:11 AM, danfriedman2002 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. Hold it Barry I gave my reason for not reading Harris' book. It is not that I assume that I know everything. I do not. That is evidenced by the voracious appetite fro books. I consume books by the hundreds. And ask questions of the authors. And often for lasting relations with them. The reason I gave for not reading this particular book is that you had spoiled it for me, even before I have seen a copy. So it's your stink posts. Now you continue to annoy by not posting about a book you are reading, or have read, but rather a cut-and-paste from your friend. This is again annoying. It even makes me question whether there is any 'friend' involved. Change if you can; this is my best advice. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Now how could someone spoil the book by posting a passage? I also posted a
paragraph from the book and a link to the first chapter. I read the quote in
the context of the book. I had already read it by the time Barry posted it, and
there was a lot of material prior to that quote about very different matters.
What Barry posts, and what most others post here does not annoy me. Because
what annoys me, and what annoys you is different, what does that say about the
actual source of annoyance? Egos always want the world to change for them,
rather than the reverse. Because the world is going to do what it does
regardless of what you do, butting your head against the world tends to be a
thankless task, unless you know specifically how the world works in a
particular situation. Telling people to change if you are not willing to do so
is called hypocrisy.
By the way, I am not the friend who emailed that quote to Barry; Barry and I
have never met, so how could we be friends? If you want a study in how to argue
a point and present evidence, Harris's book is a good example of how to do
that. I believe Barry's point in that post is that we can fool ourselves into
thinking we are more advanced in this particular discipline ('enlightenment')
than we are. It can be very annoying to have that pointed out if, in fact, we
make a pretence about it, or are even simply mistaken.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, danfriedmann2...@yahoogroups.com wrote :
Hold it Barry I gave my reason for not reading Harris' book. It is not
that I assume that I know everything. I do not. That is evidenced by the
voracious appetite fro books. I consume books by the hundreds. And ask
questions of the authors. And often for lasting relations with them. The reason
I gave for not reading this particular book is that you had spoiled it for me,
even before I have seen a copy. So it's your stink posts.
Now you continue to annoy by not posting about a book you are reading, or have
read, but rather a cut-and-paste from your friend. This is again annoying. It
even makes me question whether there is any 'friend' involved. Change if you
can; this is my best advice.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote :
Now how could someone spoil the book by posting a passage?
Because the post sent by Barry compared Sam Harris' book to Poonja-ji?
I also posted a paragraph from the book and a link to the first chapter.
We are not looking for crap cribbed off the web by informants that haven't even
read the book and who don't even know the difference between Dilgo Khyentse's
Vajrayana and Shankara's Advaita.
I read the quote in the context of the book. I had already read it by the time
Barry posted it, and there was a lot of material prior to that quote about very
different matters. What Barry posts, and what most others post here does not
annoy me. Because what annoys me, and what annoys you is different, what does
that say about the actual source of annoyance? Egos always want the world to
change for them, rather than the reverse. Because the world is going to do what
it does regardless of what you do, butting your head against the world tends to
be a thankless task, unless you know specifically how the world works in a
particular situation. Telling people to change if you are not willing to do so
is called hypocrisy.
By the way, I am not the friend who emailed that quote to Barry; Barry and I
have never met, so how could we be friends? If you want a study in how to argue
a point and present evidence, Harris's book is a good example of how to do
that. I believe Barry's point in that post is that we can fool ourselves into
thinking we are more advanced in this particular discipline ('enlightenment')
than we are. It can be very annoying to have that pointed out if, in fact, we
make a pretence about it, or are even simply mistaken.
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, danfriedmann2...@yahoogroups.com wrote :
Hold it Barry I gave my reason for not reading Harris' book. It is not
that I assume that I know everything. I do not. That is evidenced by the
voracious appetite fro books. I consume books by the hundreds. And ask
questions of the authors. And often for lasting relations with them. The reason
I gave for not reading this particular book is that you had spoiled it for me,
even before I have seen a copy. So it's your stink posts.
Now you continue to annoy by not posting about a book you are reading, or have
read, but rather a cut-and-paste from your friend. This is again annoying. It
even makes me question whether there is any 'friend' involved. Change if you
can; this is my best advice.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
All the enlightened people talk about their experiences, like I am permanently established in silence, every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing. Why do you want me to repeat it? The enlightened people have been talking and writing about these things forever. Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts. I didn't get what was so special about the story. And this other guy, going around telling people they are enlightened, anointing them like a pope. The whole thing is crazy. Just as enlightenment is self-evident, attempts to do anything more than describe it, live it, or achieve it, seem counter-productive, to me. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Let's pretend I read this. What are the reasons that this statement you made to Barry does not apply to you, or say to me? Exactly how does one experientially and empirically parse the statement 'I am enlightened (or not)' versus, say, 'he is enlightened (or not). What is the criterion or criteria for making such a judgement? What is the ability developed in you that allows you to do this? How do you avoid making a mistake about it? How does this apply to techniques and teachings of other teachers, who also make the claim of enlightenment? How do you make a judgement concerning those teachers and their students, who may use different methods and have a different explanatory context? Maharishi said 'there is nothing new under the sun' and so, what is it about enlightenment that is different from what came before? Did he lie? Did he tell the truth? From: fleetwood_macncheese@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, September 14, 2014 12:16 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster From anyone here who has said that they are enlightened, I haven't seen any unraveling. The reason being that if anyone achieves spiritual liberation using the techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, they know the difference between true spiritual freedom and delusion. I am not sure you do, though. You are one of the strongest mood makers on here, and for someone in the game so long, you have almost nothing to show for it. PS Let's pretend you didn't read this. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
you know about my dreams, too? dude, I misunderestimated you. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jedi_spock@... wrote : Dude, you assume too much. There is far more to this than you have ever dreamed of. --- fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Are you truly a raving lunatic, or simply impersonating one? No, its not an Advaita question. --- jedi_spock@... wrote : A Robin in UC, thinks Khomeini is also in UC.! It's nutty that who get enlightened and come to an internet forum to announce that they are enlightened. That is never supposed to happen. Judy and the mean girls had descended to the level, where they lick Robin's boots. I, zarzari, emptybill, had such a difficult time with her. Read below and weep, all the enlightened pronouncements and declarations of Khomeini in Unity consciousness.! A fatwa by the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran. A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister. According to a special religious decree issued by Ayatollah Khomeini, virgin women prisoners must be raped before execution to prevent their going to heaven. A Guard conducts the rape the night before their murder. The next day, the religious judge at the prison issues a marriage certificate and sends it to the victim’s family, along with a box of sweets. Ayatollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements: A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. --- turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
--- jedi_spock@... wrote : Dude, you assume too much. There is far more to this than you have ever dreamed of. --- punditster@... wrote : What does Robin and the Ayatollah have to do with Sam Harris? Only a raving maniac would confuse the two with Sam Harris. You are supposed to read the article below before commenting. --- fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : Are you truly a raving lunatic, or simply impersonating one? No, its not an Advaita question. --- jedi_spock@... wrote : A Robin in UC, thinks Khomeini is also in UC.! It's nutty that who get enlightened and come to an internet forum to announce that they are enlightened. That is never supposed to happen. Judy and the mean girls had descended to the level, where they lick Robin's boots. I, zarzari, emptybill, had such a difficult time with her. Read below and weep, all the enlightened pronouncements and declarations of Khomeini in Unity consciousness.! A fatwa by the Ayatollah Khomeini of Iran. A man can marry a girl younger than nine years of age, even if the girl is still a baby being breastfed. A man, however is prohibited from having intercourse with a girl younger than nine, other sexual acts such as foreplay, rubbing, kissing and sodomy is allowed. A man having intercourse with a girl younger than nine years of age has not committed a crime, but only an infraction, if the girl is not permanently damaged. If the girl, however, is permanently damaged, the man must provide for her all her life. But this girl will not count as one of the man's four permanent wives. He also is not permitted to marry the girl's sister. According to a special religious decree issued by Ayatollah Khomeini, virgin women prisoners must be raped before execution to prevent their going to heaven. A Guard conducts the rape the night before their murder. The next day, the religious judge at the prison issues a marriage certificate and sends it to the victim’s family, along with a box of sweets. Ayatollah Khomeini, The Supreme Leader of Iran, the Shia Grand Ayatollah, 1979-89 said in his official statements: A man can quench his sexual lusts with a child as young as a baby. However, he should not penetrate. Sodomizing the baby is halal (allowed by sharia). If the man penetrates and damages the child, then he should be responsible for her subsistence all her life. This girl, however, does not count as one of his four permanent wives. The man will not be eligible to marry the girl’s sister. It is better for a girl to marry when her menstruation starts, and at her husband's house rather than her father's home. Any father marrying his daughter so young will have a permanent place in heaven. --- turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought,
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
--- fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : All the enlightened people talk about their experiences, No, they don't. like I am permanently established in silence, every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing. Why do you want me to repeat it? The enlightened people have been talking and writing about these things forever. They are all frauds or deluded. Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts. I didn't get what was so special about the story. And this other guy, going around telling people they are enlightened, anointing them like a pope. Maharishi declared that Robin was E. The whole thing is crazy. Just as enlightenment is self-evident, attempts to do anything more than describe it, live it, or achieve it, seem counter-productive, to me. You still have a long way to go. --- anartaxius@... wrote : Let's pretend I read this. What are the reasons that this statement you made to Barry does not apply to you, or say to me? Exactly how does one experientially and empirically parse the statement 'I am enlightened (or not)' versus, say, 'he is enlightened (or not). What is the criterion or criteria for making such a judgement? What is the ability developed in you that allows you to do this? How do you avoid making a mistake about it? How does this apply to techniques and teachings of other teachers, who also make the claim of enlightenment? How do you make a judgement concerning those teachers and their students, who may use different methods and have a different explanatory context? Maharishi said 'there is nothing new under the sun' and so, what is it about enlightenment that is different from what came before? Did he lie? Did he tell the truth? From: fleetwood_macncheese@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From anyone here who has said that they are enlightened, I haven't seen any unraveling. The reason being that if anyone achieves spiritual liberation using the techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, they know the difference between true spiritual freedom and delusion. I am not sure you do, though. You are one of the strongest mood makers on here, and for someone in the game so long, you have almost nothing to show for it. PS Let's pretend you didn't read this. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Yeah, they do - Ramana, and MMY and Brahmananda Saraswati, and Adyashanti, all of those guys do it and talk about it, and write books - else we wouldn't have any examples. None of the characteristics of enlightenment are a secret, or something everyone dreams up independently. As for all of the above, being frauds and deluded, yeah it does look that way, from a certain perspective. If a person is culturally brainwashed, or feeble minded, or mentally unbalanced, any of those, then the people listed above seem like frauds and deluded. As for me having a long way to go, yes, it is a big place. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, jedi_spock@... wrote : --- fleetwood_macncheese@... wrote : All the enlightened people talk about their experiences, No, they don't. like I am permanently established in silence, every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing. Why do you want me to repeat it? The enlightened people have been talking and writing about these things forever. They are all frauds or deluded. Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts. I didn't get what was so special about the story. And this other guy, going around telling people they are enlightened, anointing them like a pope. Maharishi declared that Robin was E. The whole thing is crazy. Just as enlightenment is self-evident, attempts to do anything more than describe it, live it, or achieve it, seem counter-productive, to me. You still have a long way to go. --- anartaxius@... wrote : Let's pretend I read this. What are the reasons that this statement you made to Barry does not apply to you, or say to me? Exactly how does one experientially and empirically parse the statement 'I am enlightened (or not)' versus, say, 'he is enlightened (or not). What is the criterion or criteria for making such a judgement? What is the ability developed in you that allows you to do this? How do you avoid making a mistake about it? How does this apply to techniques and teachings of other teachers, who also make the claim of enlightenment? How do you make a judgement concerning those teachers and their students, who may use different methods and have a different explanatory context? Maharishi said 'there is nothing new under the sun' and so, what is it about enlightenment that is different from what came before? Did he lie? Did he tell the truth? From: fleetwood_macncheese@... [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com From anyone here who has said that they are enlightened, I haven't seen any unraveling. The reason being that if anyone achieves spiritual liberation using the techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, they know the difference between true spiritual freedom and delusion. I am not sure you do, though. You are one of the strongest mood makers on here, and for someone in the game so long, you have almost nothing to show for it. PS Let's pretend you didn't read this. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Yes but everybody is reading this book. I had to get the baristas at Starbucks to stop reading it to get my drink this morning. Then all the folks indoor and on the patio were reading it including the folks from the bicycle clubs. When I pulled up to a stop light I had to honk my horn when the light turned green because the driver in front of me was busy reading it on his smartphone. I had to get the clerks at the grocery store to stop reading it so I could get my groceries checked out. Some folks like to read about enlightenment while others prefer to experience it. On 09/14/2014 05:16 AM, fleetwood_macnche...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] wrote: From anyone here who has said that they are enlightened, I haven't seen any unraveling. The reason being that if anyone achieves spiritual liberation using the techniques of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, they know the difference between true spiritual freedom and delusion. I am not sure you do, though. You are one of the strongest mood makers on here, and for someone in the game so long, you have almost nothing to show for it. PS Let's pretend you didn't read this. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
I hope to read this when I get a few minutes, but really Barry, you really dig this packing as many insults as you can into a few sentences. Is this your legacy as a writer? His writing efficiency was displayed in that he was regularly able to pack the maximum amount of insults in a matter of a few sentences to his prime audience which was a chat room on the internet called Fairfieldlife. He visited the site on a daily basis and was for decades, one of the main contributors, we presume to make sure that the other participants were still, as he would like to say, 'cult apologists', and therefore deserving of his daily insults Maybe it makes sense to you, Barry, but I'm not sure it would to others, unless, this is all at the behest of the reporter(s) ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience. When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked if she could join us. Because she was such good company, we encouraged her to come along. A few of us were also curious to see how her realization would appear in another context. And so it came to pass that a woman whose enlightenment had just been confirmed
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience. When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked if she could join us. Because she was such good company, we encouraged her to come along. A few of us were also curious to see how her realization would appear in another context. And so it came to pass that a woman whose enlightenment had just been confirmed by one of the greatest living exponents of Advaita Vedanta was in the room when we received our first teachings from Tulku Urgyen Rinpoche, who was generally thought to be one of the greatest living Dzogchen masters. Of all the Buddhist teachings, those of
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; Steve, without me sounding rude I would like to ask you a question: Have you always possessed this formidable set of balls? You don't have to answer that question. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this woman sit beside Poonja-ji on a raised platform expounding upon how blissful it now was in her corner of the universe. She was, in fact, radiantly happy, and it was by no means clear that Poonja-ji had made a mistake in recognizing her. She would say things like “There is nothing but consciousness, and there is no difference between it and reality itself.” Coming from such a nice, guileless person, there was little reason to doubt the profundity of her experience. When it came time for our group to leave India for Nepal, this woman asked if she could join us. Because she was such good company, we encouraged her to come along. A few of us were also curious to see how her realization would appear in another context. And so it came to pass that a woman whose enlightenment had just been confirmed by one of the greatest
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
I'm blushing Ann. Thanks. I think, like you, we've traveled some rough roads. It's the only way to survive. I think this was actually compliments of Barry. I like this expression, and some of the sentiments expressed. Volvo Trucks - The Epic Split feat. Van Damme (Live Test 6) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7FIvfx5J10 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7FIvfx5J10 Volvo Trucks - The Epic Split feat. Van Damme (Live Test... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7FIvfx5J10 Watch Jean-Claude Van Damme carry out his famous split between two reversing trucks. Never done before, JCVD says it's the most epic of splits -- what do you... View on www.youtube.com http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M7FIvfx5J10 Preview by Yahoo ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; Steve, without me sounding rude I would like to ask you a question: Have you always possessed this formidable set of balls? You don't have to answer that question. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life. When I first met him, he had not yet been discovered by the throngs of Western devotees who would soon turn his tiny house in Lucknow into a spiritual circus. Like his teacher Ramana, Poonja-ji claimed to be perfectly free from the illusion of the self—and by all appearances, he was. And like Ramana— and every other Indian guru—Poonja-ji would occasionally say something deeply unscientific. On the whole, however, his teaching was remarkably free of Hindu religiosity or unwarranted assertions about the nature of the cosmos. He appeared to simply speak from experience about the nature of experience itself. Poonja-ji’s influence on me was profound, especially because it came as a corrective to all the strenuous and unsatisfying efforts I had been making in meditation up to that point. But the dangers inherent in his approach soon became obvious. The all-or-nothing quality of Poonja-ji’s teaching obliged him to acknowledge the full enlightenment of any person who was grandiose or manic enough to claim it. Thus, I repeatedly witnessed fellow students declare their complete and undying freedom, all the while appearing quite ordinary—or worse. In certain cases, these people had clearly had some sort of breakthrough, but Poonja-ji’s insistence upon the finality of every legitimate insight led many of them to delude themselves about their spiritual attainments. Some left India and became gurus. From what I could tell, Poonja-ji gave everyone his blessing to spread his teachings in this way. He once suggested that I do it, and yet it was clear to me that I was not qualified to be anyone’s guru. Nearly twenty years have passed, and I’m still not. Of course, from Poonja-ji’s point of view, this is an illusion. And yet there simply is a difference between a person like myself, who is generally distracted by thought, and one who isn’t and cannot be. I don’t know where to place Poonja-ji on this continuum of wisdom, but he appeared to be a lot farther along than his students. Whether Poonja-ji was capable of seeing the difference between himself and other people, I do not know. But his insistence that no difference existed began to seem either dogmatic or delusional. On one occasion, events conspired to perfectly illuminate the flaw in Poonja-ji’s teaching. A small group of experienced practitioners (among us several teachers of meditation) had organized a trip to India and Nepal to spend ten days with Poonja-ji in Lucknow, followed by ten days in Kathmandu, to receive teachings on the Tibetan Buddhist practice of Dzogchen. As it happened, during our time in Lucknow, a woman from Switzerland became “enlightened” in Poonja-ji’s presence. For the better part of a week, she was celebrated as something akin to the next Buddha. Poonja-ji repeatedly put her forward as evidence of how fully the truth could be realized without making any effort at all in meditation, and we had the pleasure of seeing this
[FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
On Sun, Sep 14, 2014 at 9:01 PM, anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com wrote: Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, For the record, Barry has stated on numerous occasions, that he does not believe in enlightenment, however he does believe in levitation. So, you can pay no attention to what Barry says about enlightenment, or just about any thing else. That's what I figure. otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Like a big so what I think it's you, Barry, who seems pre-occcupied with people's enlightenment. A prime example is Jim's. No one seems overly concerned about it, except for you. Again, with the story below, a big so what I think what you've forgotten Barry, is that the enlightenment game, the spiritual game still comes with all the same caveats as life. Keep your eyes open, and bove all, take responsibility for your own life, material and spirtitual. It's not complicated. Oh, you're welcome. (-; ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Seems like everybody's reading this book, except the people here on FFL who assume they already know everything and don't need to, that is. :-) This is a great quote that I'll pass along because 1) my friend already did all the typing so I don't have to, and 2) I love the simple and perfect way that Dzogchen deals with the kinds of faux enlightenment we see often on Fairfield Life.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Good quote from Sam Harris' new book passed along from a former FFL poster
From: anartax...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife] FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Steve, You do need to pay attention to what other people say about enlightenment, otherwise there are no markers as to whether you have made progress or not. But then, who has the 'right' markers? There are lots of descriptions of enlightenment in various traditions. Jim's experience is one of them, but it has me being suspicious because he has said rather little of it in detail, other than he has it, and he knows others do not. The only teacher I know of who describes enlightenment in great detail from start to finish, from a more 'personal' perspective, warts and all, is Adyashanti. There may be other teachers I do not know of, undoubtedly. Maharishi's system appears to have some general benchmarks, but it seems many have had experiences that are of another quality. The jury is out on this for me, but Jim seems to avoid going into much detail about his experience. 'Silence 24/7', a big release when it dawned, 'every perception sees the infinity of the object, unity prevailing', but generally not particularly creative in going beyond stock phrases that could be lifted from Maharishi's tapes. Because he seems to be interested in creativity and expression, I think he could do better at this and make up his own words for this, because then you get more of a feeling of a connexion with a person's mind. To me Jim seems more bluster than Brahman, but I do feel he had a profound experience from his point of view. I would just like to know more about it, and he seems reluctant to go into more detail. Also Jim seemed not to understand descriptions of enlightenment from other perspectives, such as Vedanta, which should not be a problem. Just something seems missing to me. Jim's performance strikes me as low resolution bravura, and seems more interested in telling the tale of it and how it compares to others' than in using it to illuminate our understanding about it. And Jim also said of Barry 'Barry told a silly little story about some western-bubbleized person having a good time, and then realizing instead they were a victim of karma, with a mind full of thoughts'. This was a cut and paste a friend sent to Barry from Sam Harris's book. It was an illustration that we can have experience which we misinterpret as enlightenment, but the story was part of a larger context in the book. I do think Barry was making a veiled reference to Jim, for Barry thinks Jim's enlightenment is faux enlightenment, and the story Sam Harris told was just that. Barry simply reposted the excerpt sent to him by Vaj, because it is a comment on the issue of Neo-Advaitan pseudo-enlightenment we've discussed here many times. Barry does not believe anyone on this forum is enlightened, no matter how much they claim to be, and has said so many times. If the ones doing the claiming get their panties in a twist over it, he considers that proof that they're not enlightened, and thanks them for providing it. :-) For the record, Barry also does not read any FFL posts made by either Richard or Steve, and doesn't much care whether they stop eating and die, because that wouldn't affect him in any way. If Edg or Anartaxius fasted themselves to death stopped posting to FFL he would probably miss their writing for a day or so but he'd get over it. Seems to me people should get over themselves and get back to the business of being ordinary. :-)
