[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@ wrote: [...] I find it difficult wrapping my head around a full program of asanas+pranayama+TM+sutra practice+yogic flying+ rest period+required reading= 45 minutes being a long-term program. I'm not being critical, Lawson. Just wondering why that particular choice was made. 20 minutes TM + 10 minutes other sutras + 5 minutes yogic flying + 10 minutes rest = 45 minutes. The rest would be nice, but I generally don't have time. So you don't practice a full program. Rather, you practice a program of your own design and have done so for, oh, 28 years. Actually that's a pretty standard and quite logical program for TM-Sidhis practitioners who can't fit in the whole nine yards. I've used it myself during especially busy stretches of my life. Interesting. It looks like truncated *was* the correct word Lawson. I find that in reading the posts you make concerning your theories about mantra effortlessness that I am often struck that you mistake endless loops of thought as some great profundity. Sure would be interesting to know which of Lawson's posts struck you this way. I haven't ever gotten that impression. You also seem to believe it is something that most others have never considered, much less dismissed as quite a muddled mess. It referring to what, exactly? I'm not selling anything but more than anyone I have met in this incarnation I believe you would benefit from Mindfullness training. It seems to me you resist due to the endless loops of TM doctrine you swallowed all those years ago. I wish you well and sincerely hope that works out for you.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
It is entirely possible that TM will be found better on some measures, and mindfulness will be found better on some measures... turquoiseb: Mindfulness, not so much. It can be -- and has been, in many cases -- divorced from its spiritual back- ground and presented as just a simple technique... If 'mindfullness' was divorced from its spiritual content, what benefit would accrue from practicing 'Buddhist' mindfullness? If the Buddha is taken out of Buddhist, then you'd be taking the spiritual out of the enlightenment. How could you have a 'Buddhist' who did not aspire to being a 'Buddha', i.e., 'one awakened to enlightenment'. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mindfulness And, why would anyone want to have their mind full, anyway? Full of thoughts? Or, just being mind-full of their thoughts? If the latter, one would then be practicing a form of mind control - concentration - which as we all know is counterproductive for transcending meditation.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
azgrey: I'm not selling anything but more than anyone I have met in this incarnation I believe you would benefit from Mindfullness training... So, what would be the benefit of adding 'Mindfullness' to his program? Note to Lawson: Whatever you do, Lawson, do Not let your mind get full; avoid 'Mindfullness training'. It may be counter-productive being in a divided state of attention. We should always try to be active coming out of samadhi. For this, we have to forget things like I should be mindful of this or that. If you are mindful, you are already creating a separation (I - am - mindful - of - ). Don't be mindful, please! When you walk, just walk. Let the walk walk. Let the talk talk (Dogen Zenji says: When we open our mouths, it is filled with Dharma). Let the eating eat, the sitting sit, the work work. Let sleep sleep. - Muho Noelke 'Stop being mindful' http://antaiji.dogen-zen.de/eng/adult18.shtml
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
So, how many tools such as mantras and yantras do you think the average person needs in order to live the spiritual life? Vaj: I don't know - how many? I'll promise to write it down this time. Answer: It takes zero mantras and yantras in order to live the spiritual life. In fact, technological advances in brain imaging have given scientists a new range of tools to more accurately observe and measure the apparent causes and manifestations of consciousness. fMRI (functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging) produces vivid images of the areas of the brain that respond to a variety of stimuli. Instead of trying to measure a purely subjective response, such as that made me feel good, scientists can also see what part of the subject's brain is responding, for how long, and to what degree. Read more: Mind Science Foundation: http://www.mindscience.org/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Have you ever taken formal instruction in Mindfulness meditation Lawson? Considered it? sparaig: My own belief and experience is that long-term TM practice automatically creates mindfulness, without the baggage... It might be a good time to review a little Indian history. 'Mindfullness' is one of the seven factors of enlightenment, according to Shakya the Muni (Gotama circa 563 BCE), India's first historical yogin. Right mindfulness in Pali is 'samma-sati' and in Sanskrit it is termed 'samyak-smrti', and the phrase is derived from the Buddha's 'noble eightfold path.' Mindfulness meditation can be traced back to the Upanishads which are a part of the Hindu scriptures and treatises on the Vedas. According to the Vedas all you have to do is remember your mantra - thus, 'mantra yoga'. ...in Buddhism, the faculty of 'mindfulness' (smrti) refers not only to moment-to-moment awareness of present events. Instead, the primary connotation of this Sanskrit term (and its corresponding Pali term sati) is recollection. This includes long-term, short-term, and working memory, non-forgetful, present-centered awareness, and also prospective memory, i.e., remembering to be aware of something or to do something at a designated time in the future. Read more: 'Attention, Memory and the Mind' A Synergy of Psychological, Neuroscientific, and Contemplative Perspectives http://www.mindandlife.org/dialogues/past-conferences/ml18/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: I believe I pointed out that the US military is getting into meditation research in a big way. The two techniques they appear to be focusing on are mindfulness and TM. I am reasonably confident that whatever the military discovers will be based on impartial research because their orientation is on results, and not what simply confirms their own spiritual belief system. It is entirely possible that TM will be found better on some measures, and mindfulness will be found better on some measures. I can live with that. I wonder if Vaj and Barry can. I would not only have no problem with properly-done research that found this, I would welcome it. I can't help but imagine that *both* practices would greatly help soldiers suffering from PTSD. My concerns would center on What comes next? after the studies have been completed. I have a far greater trust in the deliverers of mindfulness training to be able to do so at a reasonable cost than I do the deliverers of TM. Furthermore, I know from experience that most of the high cost of TM is going to go into the pockets of Maharishi's relatives in India, not back into the system, helping others. The biggest trust issue I see is whether mindfulness and TM can be taught AS IS, with no accompanying baggage. I believe (because I've seen it done) that mindfulness can. I do not believe that TM can. TM teachers would be unable to leave TM alone and present it as what the military was paying for -- a simple, easily-learned technique of meditation with no philosophy or Woo Woo associated with it. I do not believe that TM teachers would be able to comply with this. They would feel compelled to teach what they had been taught about TM's underlying dogma, and they would feel even more compelled to upsell by trying to get people to learn the TM-sidhis. To be a successful program for the military or for the general public, either mindfulness or TM would IMO have to divorce itself from its religious roots and stick to being Just A Technique. I do not believe that the TM organization is capable of allowing this to happen. Their innate desire to prosyletize, to declare their technique the best, and to upsell to all comers to get them as involved as possible in the cult and its belief systems will likely cause them to shoot themselves in the foot. Mindfulness, not so much. It can be -- and has been, in many cases -- divorced from its spiritual back- ground and presented as just a simple technique. TM never can be, if for no other reason because the TMO will never allow it to be taught without the puja, and without several days of indoctrination into the dogma that underlies it. Thus mindfulness will win out in the marketplace, no matter who scores better on scientific tests.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: Thus mindfulness will win out in the marketplace, no matter who scores better on scientific tests. Hear Hear, great surprise, the Turq applauds a Buddhist practise ! :-) TM has been around for 50 years, mindfullness 2450 years. One wonders, if it's so superior as the Turq claims why the world is not swamped with this meditation lng ago. In fact, there should be no room for TM at all since the majority of the worlds population already should have been practising this WAY superior technique already. But wait, why is it that leaders of Buddhist monestaries in South East Asia preffer to have their monks practising TM rather their own techniques that has been around for thousands of years ? Probably because it works.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 26, 2012, at 3:15 AM, turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: To be a successful program for the military or for the general public, either mindfulness or TM would IMO have to divorce itself from its religious roots and stick to being Just A Technique. I do not believe that the TM organization is capable of allowing this to happen. Their innate desire to prosyletize, to declare their technique the best, and to upsell to all comers to get them as involved as possible in the cult and its belief systems will likely cause them to shoot themselves in the foot. My primary concern with TM would be with side effects for one and two, it's inflexibility in terms of a technique: one technique fits all. There has to be some variability in any widespread technique because we're simply not uniform widgets coming off an assembly line. Mindfulness, not so much. It can be -- and has been, in many cases -- divorced from its spiritual back- ground and presented as just a simple technique. TM never can be, if for no other reason because the TMO will never allow it to be taught without the puja, and without several days of indoctrination into the dogma that underlies it. The Dalai Lama, along with neuroscientists, physicians and meditation experts have created a completely non-sectarian meditation form which should be acceptable to just about anyone. Thus mindfulness will win out in the marketplace, no matter who scores better on scientific tests. It's already very widespread in the US. You'd be hard-pressed to find a hospital here that doesn't teach it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
What Judy has written here is stated with such calm, wise and unbiased conviction it comes across as truth to me. My first look at FFL in quite a while and I see this. Maybe there is hope for this place after all. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: In an exploratory study on Pure Consciousness, the only baseline needed is between episodes of pure consciousness and the rest of the meditation period. The subjects provide their own baseline. Once you establish that there is a distinction that can be made in those specific subjects, you can then start to compare them with people who don't report regular episodes of pure consciousness, but until you establish that there is something to study, using a control group makes no real sense. You don't even know what to be looking for in the first place. So like I said, special science. Why are you replying? I just wanted to get back to this for a moment, because it's such an outstanding example of the arrogance of ignorance. Barry was wrong to call it special science. Lawson patiently explained why. And Barry responds, not having understood what Lawson was telling him, reasserting his mistake, and then asking, Why are you replying? This is why it's sometimes necessary to shoot the messenger. When the messenger carries a false message-- whether he's aware of it or not--and tries to throw his weight around as if his false message was the last word, you need to do what you can to make sure anyone who might be affected by his messages knows he can't be trusted. It's not impossible that at some point this messenger could carry an authentic, accurate message without knowing it. The point is you need to verify any message from him with some more reliable source before you take it seriously, because he doesn't care, and doesn't even know how to tell, whether it's accurate or not. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Not all studies require controls. Some of the early Pure Consciousness studies were merely trying to establish what physiological correlates (if any) could be found for the self-reports of Pure Consciousness episodes. Control groups don't really make sense in that context. Because this is special science, doncha know? You don't need the control groups you need in any other EEG study if you're doing special science. You don't need to compare the results you expected to find to any kind of baseline because...let's face it...no baseline can possibly compare meaningfully to the special thing we're researching. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, sparaig wrote: There's no such thing as proper controls in an EEG study on hand- picked subjects. The subjects in many of the Pure Consciousness studies were selected because they were self-reporting regular periods of Pure Consciousness What you meant to say is they didn't use any because they wanted to handpick their results. It's meaningless to test EEG without EEG controls.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 26, 2012, at 3:15 AM, turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: To be a successful program for the military or for the general public, either mindfulness or TM would IMO have to divorce itself from its religious roots and stick to being Just A Technique. I do not believe that the TM organization is capable of allowing this to happen. Their innate desire to prosyletize, to declare their technique the best, and to upsell to all comers to get them as involved as possible in the cult and its belief systems will likely cause them to shoot themselves in the foot. My primary concern with TM would be with side effects for one and two, it's inflexibility in terms of a technique: one technique fits all. There has to be some variability in any widespread technique because we're simply not uniform widgets coming off an assembly line. Agreed. But as I said, my biggest concern would be the inability of TM teachers to keep from using TM as a gateway drug to get them hooked on a whole belief system. Mindfulness, not so much. It can be -- and has been, in many cases -- divorced from its spiritual back- ground and presented as just a simple technique. TM never can be, if for no other reason because the TMO will never allow it to be taught without the puja, and without several days of indoctrination into the dogma that underlies it. The Dalai Lama, along with neuroscientists, physicians and meditation experts have created a completely non-sectarian meditation form which should be acceptable to just about anyone. Plus, it would have *significant* advantages when dealing with PTSD because (even though Nabby in his blissful TM- induced ignorance doesn't understand this) mindfulness is not necessarily a meditation technique in the sense that he thinks of it. One can practice mindfulness anytime, any- where...no need to sit or close one's eyes, no need to withdraw from activity or work. Most important, if unwanted thoughts and emotions come up during the day or night for a PTSD sufferer, he or she can just practice mindfulness right then and there and relieve the distress, coming back to a more balanced mental and emotional state. I would have to assume that the military would consider this a BIG plus. You really can't have soldiers in the field taking off for 20 minutes to meditate with eyes closed, after all. Thus mindfulness will win out in the marketplace, no matter who scores better on scientific tests. It's already very widespread in the US. You'd be hard-pressed to find a hospital here that doesn't teach it. And they don't try to sell you a set of add on courses that will wind up costing you $10,000 just to learn how to bounce around on your butt and bark like a dog. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
It's not an either/or thing. The Buddhists who practice TM also practice other techniques as well. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: Thus mindfulness will win out in the marketplace, no matter who scores better on scientific tests. Hear Hear, great surprise, the Turq applauds a Buddhist practise ! :-) TM has been around for 50 years, mindfullness 2450 years. One wonders, if it's so superior as the Turq claims why the world is not swamped with this meditation lng ago. In fact, there should be no room for TM at all since the majority of the worlds population already should have been practising this WAY superior technique already. But wait, why is it that leaders of Buddhist monestaries in South East Asia preffer to have their monks practising TM rather their own techniques that has been around for thousands of years ? Probably because it works.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Certainly the cost of mindfulness techniques as made them very popular. However, the US military isn't concerned about cost alone, but cost vs benefits, and they are actively evaluating several different meditation techniques for use in the US military, including mindfulness and TM. The preliminary results on TM and PTSD have already started to be published. The intent, at least with the TM studies that I am aware of, is to track meditators throughout their military careers, so we will, over the next 2-3 decades, get a nice longitudinal view of TM's effects in a military setting. Likewise, I would assume, for mindfulness techniques. L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 26, 2012, at 3:15 AM, turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: To be a successful program for the military or for the general public, either mindfulness or TM would IMO have to divorce itself from its religious roots and stick to being Just A Technique. I do not believe that the TM organization is capable of allowing this to happen. Their innate desire to prosyletize, to declare their technique the best, and to upsell to all comers to get them as involved as possible in the cult and its belief systems will likely cause them to shoot themselves in the foot. My primary concern with TM would be with side effects for one and two, it's inflexibility in terms of a technique: one technique fits all. There has to be some variability in any widespread technique because we're simply not uniform widgets coming off an assembly line. Mindfulness, not so much. It can be -- and has been, in many cases -- divorced from its spiritual back- ground and presented as just a simple technique. TM never can be, if for no other reason because the TMO will never allow it to be taught without the puja, and without several days of indoctrination into the dogma that underlies it. The Dalai Lama, along with neuroscientists, physicians and meditation experts have created a completely non-sectarian meditation form which should be acceptable to just about anyone. Thus mindfulness will win out in the marketplace, no matter who scores better on scientific tests. It's already very widespread in the US. You'd be hard-pressed to find a hospital here that doesn't teach it.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: It's not an either/or thing. The Buddhists who practice TM also practice other techniques as well. But would you be given a dome pass if you admitted to having learned mindfulness from a Buddhist teacher? You're correct. In Buddhism it's not an either/or thing. In the TM organization, it is. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: Thus mindfulness will win out in the marketplace, no matter who scores better on scientific tests. Hear Hear, great surprise, the Turq applauds a Buddhist practise ! :-) TM has been around for 50 years, mindfullness 2450 years. One wonders, if it's so superior as the Turq claims why the world is not swamped with this meditation lng ago. In fact, there should be no room for TM at all since the majority of the worlds population already should have been practising this WAY superior technique already. But wait, why is it that leaders of Buddhist monestaries in South East Asia preffer to have their monks practising TM rather their own techniques that has been around for thousands of years ? Probably because it works.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: [...] Plus, it would have *significant* advantages when dealing with PTSD because (even though Nabby in his blissful TM- induced ignorance doesn't understand this) mindfulness is not necessarily a meditation technique in the sense that he thinks of it. One can practice mindfulness anytime, any- where...no need to sit or close one's eyes, no need to withdraw from activity or work. Most important, if unwanted thoughts and emotions come up during the day or night for a PTSD sufferer, he or she can just practice mindfulness right then and there and relieve the distress, coming back to a more balanced mental and emotional state. In fact, there are articles published about Tibetan monks living in this country who are unable to meditate because of the flashbacks from their PTSD. Mindfulness and PTSD may not be as good a fit as you think. PTSD evokes hypervigilance where one is acutely aware of everything that is going on around them. It is conceivable that mindfulness techniques may exacerbate this problem. I would have to assume that the military would consider this a BIG plus. You really can't have soldiers in the field taking off for 20 minutes to meditate with eyes closed, after all. Of course you can. Soldiers constantly try to get shut-eye time even in the middle of battle. If someone isn't shooting at you and you aren't explicitly on guard duty, the most appropriate activity for every soldier in combat is to sleep whenever possible because you may not get another chance. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: It's not an either/or thing. The Buddhists who practice TM also practice other techniques as well. But would you be given a dome pass if you admitted to having learned mindfulness from a Buddhist teacher? You're correct. In Buddhism it's not an either/or thing. In the TM organization, it is. That goes back to Robin Carlson's thing at MIU several decades ago. In fact, if you aren't living in Fairfield, IA, there isn't nearly as big a deal, and from what Buck says, the policy has changed drastically recently. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: [...] I saw this whole discussion -- as well as recent discussions about the TM science -- as clear demonstrations of one of the wise sayings Rick placed on the FFL home page. That is, an exercise in the will to believe, as opposed to the wish to find out. But perhaps it goes both ways... I've stuck with TM for nearly 40 years. Is it possible that something has arisen in my TM practice that you missed because you haven't stuck with it for nearly 40 years? L. Lawson, What kind of program are you currently practicing? Both TM and Sidhi? A couple of years back you mentioned doing a program with a truncated length. Truncated? Not that I recall. I do the same minimalist TM/TM-Sidhis program that I started in 1985(1984?). Works out to about 45 minutes (counting rest period) twice-daily, assuming I keep to a schedule. Before that, I was doing the 2x20 minute TM practice starting in 1973. L. Thanks for the reply Lawson. Truncated was probably a bad choice of words as it implies removal of one end or the other. My intention, poorly stated, was, as you said, minimalist. No pejorative meaning intended. I am fully aware of the officially sanctioned methods of reducing the length of a full program as the formula was promulgated during my CIC in 1987. A formula for lengthening my 2x20 TM practice was also revealed 3 years after my starting in 1973. Did you ever avail yourself of that instruction or take any advanced techniques before or after the Sidhi instruction? I find it difficult wrapping my head around a full program of asanas+pranayama+TM+sutra practice+yogic flying+ rest period+required reading= 45 minutes being a long-term program. I'm not being critical, Lawson. Just wondering why that particular choice was made. You probably don't remember, or recognize me by my posting monicker, but we have met at least twice. The most recent was during the creation of the Natural Law Party as an entity here in Arizona. I traveled to Tucson because some NLP muckety mucks asked for my assistance thru the Phoenix TM center folks. I considered it a dubious folly, at best, but it was clear you did not.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Excellent observation Lawson. Have you ever taken formal instruction in Mindfulness meditation Lawson? Considered it? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: It's not an either/or thing. The Buddhists who practice TM also practice other techniques as well. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: Thus mindfulness will win out in the marketplace, no matter who scores better on scientific tests. Hear Hear, great surprise, the Turq applauds a Buddhist practise ! :-) TM has been around for 50 years, mindfullness 2450 years. One wonders, if it's so superior as the Turq claims why the world is not swamped with this meditation lng ago. In fact, there should be no room for TM at all since the majority of the worlds population already should have been practising this WAY superior technique already. But wait, why is it that leaders of Buddhist monestaries in South East Asia preffer to have their monks practising TM rather their own techniques that has been around for thousands of years ? Probably because it works.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: It's not an either/or thing. The Buddhists who practice TM also practice other techniques as well. But would you be given a dome pass if you admitted to having learned mindfulness from a Buddhist teacher? You're correct. In Buddhism it's not an either/or thing. In the TM organization, it is. I wonder if the dome pass would be withheld if the Mindfullness training came from a secular source such as the MBSR program created by Jon Kabat-Zinn and taught widely thru the UMASS Medical Center? I understand that MBCT, a variation on MBST developed by Zindel Segal, Mark Williams and John Teasdale, is widely taught in the UK and is financially covered by the National Health. This has happened because the medical community in the UK has seen that it works. Unquestionably. Pretty darned simple. Though I know you don't, TurquoiseB, I still enjoy my TM. It feels good. I am not sure why but it feels even better since I took instruction in some Mindfullness techniques. It is almost as if some synergy occurs. I don't spend much time dwelling on why that synergy seems to exist, just as I don't spend time dwelling on enlightenment. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: Thus mindfulness will win out in the marketplace, no matter who scores better on scientific tests. Hear Hear, great surprise, the Turq applauds a Buddhist practise ! :-) TM has been around for 50 years, mindfullness 2450 years. One wonders, if it's so superior as the Turq claims why the world is not swamped with this meditation lng ago. In fact, there should be no room for TM at all since the majority of the worlds population already should have been practising this WAY superior technique already. But wait, why is it that leaders of Buddhist monestaries in South East Asia preffer to have their monks practising TM rather their own techniques that has been around for thousands of years ? Probably because it works.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@... wrote: Though I know you don't, TurquoiseB, I still enjoy my TM. It feels good. I am not sure why but it feels even better since I took instruction in some Mindfullness techniques. It is almost as if some synergy occurs. I would agree. I prefer another form of sitting meditation, but if I still did TM I would feel that a perfect counterpart to it would be the addition of mindfulness practices. It really isn't an either/or, but as you say, a synergy. TMers spend 40 minutes a day (or 90, if they're doing the full program you mentioned earlier) meditating and the rest of the day at the prey of their emotions and thoughts. Given some of the thoughts and emotions we've seen around here, a little mindfulness wouldn't hurt. :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: But would you be given a dome pass if you admitted to having learned mindfulness from a Buddhist teacher? You're correct. In Buddhism it's not an either/or thing. Is that why most of the Buddhist's I've met appear, uh, weak ? In the TM organization, it is. Thank God :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@... wrote: [...] I find it difficult wrapping my head around a full program of asanas+pranayama+TM+sutra practice+yogic flying+ rest period+required reading= 45 minutes being a long-term program. I'm not being critical, Lawson. Just wondering why that particular choice was made. 20 minutes TM + 10 minutes other sutras + 5 minutes yogic flying + 10 minutes rest = 45 minutes. The rest would be nice, but I generally don't have time. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@... wrote: Excellent observation Lawson. Have you ever taken formal instruction in Mindfulness meditation Lawson? Considered it? My own belief and experience is that long-term TM practice automatically creates mindfulness, without the baggage that you're supposed to be non-judgemental. Research on world champion athletes shows that their eyes closed resting EEG is more similar to long-term TMers' than non-world champion athletes is. Both groups report flow experiences more often than average, and both groups score better than average on *appropriate* mindfulness tests -that is, if they know what to expect, they prepare for it, and if they don't know what to expect, they don't. L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: [...] Plus, it would have *significant* advantages when dealing with PTSD because (even though Nabby in his blissful TM- induced ignorance doesn't understand this) mindfulness is not necessarily a meditation technique in the sense that he thinks of it. One can practice mindfulness anytime, any- where...no need to sit or close one's eyes, no need to withdraw from activity or work. Most important, if unwanted thoughts and emotions come up during the day or night for a PTSD sufferer, he or she can just practice mindfulness right then and there and relieve the distress, coming back to a more balanced mental and emotional state. In fact, there are articles published about Tibetan monks living in this country who are unable to meditate because of the flashbacks from their PTSD. Cite please. Unable to meditate. I think not. I believe that you may be misunderstanding the phenomenon and therefore misstating the situation. PTSD, however, certainly exists in some Tibetan monks. I had the good fortune of a chance meeting once, in Phoenix, with Palden Gyatso. To say he is a remarkable fellow would be the grossest understatement of my life. I had no idea who he was. Friends brought him by for me to share lunch with him. The humble manner he showed when I payed for our lunch stays with me to this day. I can only compare it to the gratitude seen in my adopted Greyhounds eyes when given a meal in their adopted home. Anthropomorphism my ass!! It is true gratitude. It was then that I began to understand the real meaning and depth of seeing Buddha nature in sentient beings. He went out to the car my friends had arrived in and then gave me a copy of his autobiography which he then wrote a long inscription inside. It was only upon reading the book that I learned of his 33 years spent in Chinese prisons and labor camps. Someday I hope to view the 2008 documentary film about him Mindfulness and PTSD may not be as good a fit as you think. PTSD evokes hypervigilance where one is acutely aware of everything that is going on around them. It is conceivable that mindfulness techniques may exacerbate this problem. Here you answer my earlier question as to whether you have ever taken formal Mindfullness training Lawson. If you had, you would be aware that formal as well as informal practice can be done while sitting, standing, walking, or laying down. Your statement is as ill-informed as that of my MBSR instructor's when he described TM as a meditation in which you concentrate on your mantra. I would have to assume that the military would consider this a BIG plus. You really can't have soldiers in the field taking off for 20 minutes to meditate with eyes closed, after all. Of course you can. Soldiers constantly try to get shut-eye time even in the middle of battle. If someone isn't shooting at you and you aren't explicitly on guard duty, the most appropriate activity for every soldier in combat is to sleep whenever possible because you may not get another chance. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: [...] Plus, it would have *significant* advantages when dealing with PTSD because (even though Nabby in his blissful TM- induced ignorance doesn't understand this) mindfulness is not necessarily a meditation technique in the sense that he thinks of it. One can practice mindfulness anytime, any- where...no need to sit or close one's eyes, no need to withdraw from activity or work. Most important, if unwanted thoughts and emotions come up during the day or night for a PTSD sufferer, he or she can just practice mindfulness right then and there and relieve the distress, coming back to a more balanced mental and emotional state. In fact, there are articles published about Tibetan monks living in this country who are unable to meditate because of the flashbacks from their PTSD. Cite please. Unable to meditate. I think not. I believe that you may be misunderstanding the phenomenon and therefore misstating the situation. PTSD, however, certainly exists in some Tibetan monks. I had the good fortune of a chance meeting once, in Phoenix, with Palden Gyatso. To say he is a remarkable fellow would be the grossest understatement of my life. I had no idea who he was. Friends brought him by for me to share lunch with him. The humble manner he showed when I payed for our lunch stays with me to this day. I can only compare it to the gratitude seen in my adopted Greyhounds eyes when given a meal in their adopted home. Anthropomorphism my ass!! It is true gratitude. It was then that I began to understand the real meaning and depth of seeing Buddha nature in sentient beings. He went out to the car my friends had arrived in and then gave me a copy of his autobiography which he then wrote a long inscription inside. It was only upon reading the book that I learned of his 33 years spent in Chinese prisons and labor camps. Someday I hope to view the 2008 documentary film about him Nice story. I got to see him in Santa Fe, although only from the audience in a room of about 100 others. His presence touched all of us. He and only one other person I've met embody for me the concept of compassion. The other, interestingly enough, was a filmmaker, the director of Phörpa (The Cup). Khyentse Norbu is a also a Tibetan Buddhist lama and a recognized tulku; he just prefers making movies to doing the tulku thing. :-) Anyway, I got to meet him and observe him at a fund- raising showing of The Cup in Santa Fe. The room was full of heavy rollers, there to be seen and to slip Norbu a check, and thus receive a little financially- induced darshan. (Hey!...we're talking about Santa Fe.) It was his *equanimity* that floored me. The co-founder of Microsoft walks up and schmoozes him and puts a check in the bowl and he treats him...uh, there's no other word for it...perfectly, and then he walks off. And the next person he interacts with is a young Chicano woman who has been hired at minimum wage to serve drinks at this fund-raiser, asking if he would like any more tea. And he treats her...uh, there's no other word for it...perfectly, and then she walks off. NOTHING fazed him. NOTHING shook him from his baseline. He treated everyone who he interacted with with perfect equanimity and compassion. The dude could have been a superstar if he'd stayed within the confines of Tibetan Buddhism. But he realized that he liked making movies better. Based on having been able to watch him for a couple of hours, I'd say that he made the correct choice. Dude rocks.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@ wrote: [...] I find it difficult wrapping my head around a full program of asanas+pranayama+TM+sutra practice+yogic flying+ rest period+required reading= 45 minutes being a long-term program. I'm not being critical, Lawson. Just wondering why that particular choice was made. 20 minutes TM + 10 minutes other sutras + 5 minutes yogic flying + 10 minutes rest = 45 minutes. The rest would be nice, but I generally don't have time. L. So you don't practice a full program. Rather, you practice a program of your own design and have done so for, oh, 28 years. Interesting. It looks like truncated *was* the correct word Lawson. I find that in reading the posts you make concerning your theories about mantra effortlessness that I am often struck that you mistake endless loops of thought as some great profundity. You also seem to believe it is something that most others have never considered, much less dismissed as quite a muddled mess. I'm not selling anything but more than anyone I have met in this incarnation I believe you would benefit from Mindfullness training. It seems to me you resist due to the endless loops of TM doctrine you swallowed all those years ago. I wish you well and sincerely hope that works out for you.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: [...] Plus, it would have *significant* advantages when dealing with PTSD because (even though Nabby in his blissful TM- induced ignorance doesn't understand this) mindfulness is not necessarily a meditation technique in the sense that he thinks of it. One can practice mindfulness anytime, any- where...no need to sit or close one's eyes, no need to withdraw from activity or work. Most important, if unwanted thoughts and emotions come up during the day or night for a PTSD sufferer, he or she can just practice mindfulness right then and there and relieve the distress, coming back to a more balanced mental and emotional state. In fact, there are articles published about Tibetan monks living in this country who are unable to meditate because of the flashbacks from their PTSD. Cite please. Unable to meditate. I think not. I believe that you may be misunderstanding the phenomenon and therefore misstating the situation. PTSD, however, certainly exists in some Tibetan monks. I had the good fortune of a chance meeting once, in Phoenix, with Palden Gyatso. To say he is a remarkable fellow would be the grossest understatement of my life. I had no idea who he was. Friends brought him by for me to share lunch with him. The humble manner he showed when I payed for our lunch stays with me to this day. I can only compare it to the gratitude seen in my adopted Greyhounds eyes when given a meal in their adopted home. Anthropomorphism my ass!! It is true gratitude. It was then that I began to understand the real meaning and depth of seeing Buddha nature in sentient beings. He went out to the car my friends had arrived in and then gave me a copy of his autobiography which he then wrote a long inscription inside. It was only upon reading the book that I learned of his 33 years spent in Chinese prisons and labor camps. Someday I hope to view the 2008 documentary film about him Nice story. I got to see him in Santa Fe, although only from the audience in a room of about 100 others. His presence touched all of us. He and only one other person I've met embody for me the concept of compassion. The other, interestingly enough, was a filmmaker, the director of Phörpa (The Cup). Khyentse Norbu is a also a Tibetan Buddhist lama and a recognized tulku; he just prefers making movies to doing the tulku thing. :-) Anyway, I got to meet him and observe him at a fund- raising showing of The Cup in Santa Fe. The room was full of heavy rollers, there to be seen and to slip Norbu a check, and thus receive a little financially- induced darshan. (Hey!...we're talking about Santa Fe.) It was his *equanimity* that floored me. The co-founder of Microsoft walks up and schmoozes him and puts a check in the bowl and he treats him...uh, there's no other word for it...perfectly, and then he walks off. And the next person he interacts with is a young Chicano woman who has been hired at minimum wage to serve drinks at this fund-raiser, asking if he would like any more tea. And he treats her...uh, there's no other word for it...perfectly, and then she walks off. NOTHING fazed him. NOTHING shook him from his baseline. He treated everyone who he interacted with with perfect equanimity and compassion. The dude could have been a superstar if he'd stayed within the confines of Tibetan Buddhism. But he realized that he liked making movies better. Based on having been able to watch him for a couple of hours, I'd say that he made the correct choice. Dude rocks. Cool. This reminiscence drew me to the IMDB to look up Khyentse Norbu again. I really do love his films, and he hasn't released one since Travelers and Magicians. Happy happy joy joy. Two of his films may be coming out soon. The first is listed as completed, and is called Finding Manjushri -- http://www.imdb.com/title/tt2255805/ A smug young monk embarks upon an intriguing journey only to discover that the wisdom he seeks is much closer than he imagines, and much stranger than he could possibly envisage. Set against the stunning backdrop of the Himalayas, Lodro battles the elements, braves the seductions of beautiful women, chases enchanted children and encounters a magical mule that can read, in his attempt to reach the mythical mountain of Wutaishan, in search of Manjushri. Finding Manjushri was produced on a shoestring budget in a Tibetan refugee settlement in northern India. It is a delightful and uplifting story, delivered with charm and humor, that explores Tibetan Buddhism's unconventional concept of wisdom and carries a universal
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: Nice story. I got to see him in Santa Fe, although only from the audience in a room of about 100 others. His presence touched all of us. He and only one other person I've met embody for me the concept of compassion. The other, interestingly enough, was a filmmaker, the director of Phörpa (The Cup). Khyentse Norbu is a also a Tibetan Buddhist lama and a recognized tulku; he just prefers making movies to doing the tulku thing. :-) Anyway, I got to meet him and observe him at a fund- raising showing of The Cup in Santa Fe. The room was full of heavy rollers, there to be seen and to slip Norbu a check, and thus receive a little financially- induced darshan. (Hey!...we're talking about Santa Fe.) It was his *equanimity* that floored me. The co-founder of Microsoft walks up and schmoozes him and puts a check in the bowl and he treats him...uh, there's no other word for it...perfectly, and then he walks off. And the next person he interacts with is a young Chicano woman who has been hired at minimum wage to serve drinks at this fund-raiser, asking if he would like any more tea. And he treats her...uh, there's no other word for it...perfectly, and then she walks off. NOTHING fazed him. NOTHING shook him from his baseline. He treated everyone who he interacted with with perfect equanimity and compassion. The dude could have been a superstar if he'd stayed within the confines of Tibetan Buddhism. But he realized that he liked making movies better. Based on having been able to watch him for a couple of hours, I'd say that he made the correct choice. Dude rocks. Cool. This reminiscence drew me to the IMDB to look up Khyentse Norbu again. I really do love his films, and he hasn't released one since Travelers and Magicians. Happy happy joy joy. Two of his films may be coming out soon. The first is listed as completed, and is called Finding Manjushri I found a website for this film. Your mileage may vary, but I found it not only well done, but rather uplifting. If you like the home page, click on the other tabs at the top... http://www.findingmanjushri.com/
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@... wrote: I'm not selling anything but ... Joke of the week :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 26, 2012, at 1:15 PM, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: It's not an either/or thing. The Buddhists who practice TM also practice other techniques as well. But would you be given a dome pass if you admitted to having learned mindfulness from a Buddhist teacher? Hell, you can’t even hug a saint and still be admitted to the dome from what I’ve heard. You're correct. In Buddhism it's not an either/or thing. In the TM organization, it is. Good point.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 26, 2012, at 12:11 PM, turquoiseb wrote: Plus, it would have *significant* advantages when dealing with PTSD because (even though Nabby in his blissful TM- induced ignorance doesn't understand this) mindfulness is not necessarily a meditation technique in the sense that he thinks of it. One can practice mindfulness anytime, any- where...no need to sit or close one's eyes, no need to withdraw from activity or work. Most important, if unwanted thoughts and emotions come up during the day or night for a PTSD sufferer, he or she can just practice mindfulness right then and there and relieve the distress, coming back to a more balanced mental and emotional state. Generally you’ll see many Buddhist meditators learn either mindfulness or shamatha first and then learning the other. Later they may learn the unification of shamatha and mindfulness. By then, they’ll already have enough tools and sufficient spiritual maturity to handle most things in life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
turquoiseb: One can practice mindfulness anytime, any- where... So, how is your 'mindfullness' technique that different from just a normal waking state? Vaj: Generally you'll see many Buddhist meditators learn either mindfulness or shamatha first and then learning the other. Later they may learn the unification of shamatha and mindfulness... There's not much difference between 'TM' practice and Buddhist meditation techniques. In fact, TM is one of the best mindfullness techniques, based on the ancient yoga tradition of India. Unless you're thinking there is some intellectual component that we should figure out. By then, they'll already have enough tools and sufficient spiritual maturity to handle most things in life. So, how many tools such as mantras and yantras do you think the average person needs in order to live the spiritual life?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 26, 2012, at 7:01 PM, Richard J. Williams wrote: So, how many tools such as mantras and yantras do you think the average person needs in order to live the spiritual life? I don’t know - how many? I’ll promise to write it down this time.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: If you won't list the papers, I won't respond. If you do list the papers I won't respond. Why is it so important to you that Vaj respond? He *does* have a point that you keep talking about newer research that you never define. Seems to me that if you wanted to call people's attention to that research, you could cite and describe it, whether Vaj chooses to respond or not. In other words, you keep harping on the supposed fact that comparative studies that were...uh... not impressed with TM ignored research after 1980. But you *also* ignore this research, in that you don't cite it. You just talk about its existence, in the same way that Joe McCarthy used to wave a blank piece of paper around and say, I have in my hand a list of 432 communists who work in the U.S. government. He never had to produce the list, only claim it existed. So far, you seem to be in the same ballpark. Yours and Judy's replies seem to be all about *whether you can get Vaj to argue with you*. It's pretty clear that THAT is your goal, *not* any critical examination of the supposed research itself. Just sayin'. I don't see any harm in listing these studies that you feel critics are missing, do you? And, since you know in advance that most here are not going to read them because...uh...they have lives, and they're not as heavily into the gotta defend TM thang as you are, why don't you synopsize what you feel are the most salient points of this newer research. Then people could get a feel for whether you are waving a blank piece of paper or one with writing on it. What Vaj does or doesn't do isn't the issue. If you are trying to establish that you have credibility and he doesn't, I'm just pointing out that you haven't accomplished that. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 9:00 PM, sparaig wrote: I am speaking words and you are hearing different ones. THe most interesting research on TM has all been published since 1980. If evaluations of the significance of EEG results during TM don't look at the papers published in the last 30+ years, well, it is obvious that they are based on 30 year old research, now isn't it? If you're speaking of some new research I haven't heard of then, maybe. But unless you clearly list titles of papers then how the hell am I supposed to know what your foggy allusions are referring to? I'm not asking you to list them - I'm really not that interested. Relaxation response meditation is a good thing for many people.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Thing is, Unc, I've cited it many times. Vaj just ignores it. Research on the physiological correlates of pure consciousness found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10512549 Pure consciousness: distinct phenomenological and physiological correlates of consciousness itself. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9009807 Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of Transcendental Consciousness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10487785 Autonomic and EEG patterns during eyes-closed rest and transcendental meditation (TM) practice: the basis for a neural model of TM practice. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19862565 A self-referential default brain state: patterns of coherence, power, and eLORETA sources during eyes-closed rest and Transcendental Meditation practice. Research on the physiological correlates of the stabilization of pure consciousness outside of meditation in long-term TM meditators: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12406612 Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states. http://www.tm.org/american-psychological-association Abstract for the 2007 Conference of the American Psychological Association Brain Integration Scale: Corroborating Language-based â¨Instruments of Post-conventional Development Research on the physiological correlates of the stabilization of pure consciousness outside of meditation in non-meditators: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1600-0838.2009.01007.x/full Higher psycho-physiological refinement in world-class Norwegian athletes: brain measures of performance capacity --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: If you won't list the papers, I won't respond. If you do list the papers I won't respond. Why is it so important to you that Vaj respond? He *does* have a point that you keep talking about newer research that you never define. Seems to me that if you wanted to call people's attention to that research, you could cite and describe it, whether Vaj chooses to respond or not. In other words, you keep harping on the supposed fact that comparative studies that were...uh... not impressed with TM ignored research after 1980. But you *also* ignore this research, in that you don't cite it. You just talk about its existence, in the same way that Joe McCarthy used to wave a blank piece of paper around and say, I have in my hand a list of 432 communists who work in the U.S. government. He never had to produce the list, only claim it existed. So far, you seem to be in the same ballpark. Yours and Judy's replies seem to be all about *whether you can get Vaj to argue with you*. It's pretty clear that THAT is your goal, *not* any critical examination of the supposed research itself. Just sayin'. I don't see any harm in listing these studies that you feel critics are missing, do you? And, since you know in advance that most here are not going to read them because...uh...they have lives, and they're not as heavily into the gotta defend TM thang as you are, why don't you synopsize what you feel are the most salient points of this newer research. Then people could get a feel for whether you are waving a blank piece of paper or one with writing on it. What Vaj does or doesn't do isn't the issue. If you are trying to establish that you have credibility and he doesn't, I'm just pointing out that you haven't accomplished that. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 9:00 PM, sparaig wrote: I am speaking words and you are hearing different ones. THe most interesting research on TM has all been published since 1980. If evaluations of the significance of EEG results during TM don't look at the papers published in the last 30+ years, well, it is obvious that they are based on 30 year old research, now isn't it? If you're speaking of some new research I haven't heard of then, maybe. But unless you clearly list titles of papers then how the hell am I supposed to know what your foggy allusions are referring to? I'm not asking you to list them - I'm really not that interested. Relaxation response meditation is a good thing for many people.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: If you won't list the papers, I won't respond. If you do list the papers I won't respond. Why is it so important to you that Vaj respond? He *does* have a point that you keep talking about newer research that you never define. Seems to me that if you wanted to call people's attention to that research, you could cite and describe it, whether Vaj chooses to respond or not. In other words, you keep harping on the supposed fact that comparative studies that were...uh... not impressed with TM ignored research after 1980. But you *also* ignore this research, in that you don't cite it. You just talk about its existence, in the same way that Joe McCarthy used to wave a blank piece of paper around and say, I have in my hand a list of 432 communists who work in the U.S. government. He never had to produce the list, only claim it existed. So far, you seem to be in the same ballpark. Yours and Judy's replies seem to be all about *whether you can get Vaj to argue with you*. It's pretty clear that THAT is your goal, *not* any critical examination of the supposed research itself. Just sayin'. I don't see any harm in listing these studies that you feel critics are missing, do you? And, since you know in advance that most here are not going to read them because...uh...they have lives, and they're not as heavily into the gotta defend TM thang as you are, why don't you synopsize what you feel are the most salient points of this newer research. Then people could get a feel for whether you are waving a blank piece of paper or one with writing on it. What Vaj does or doesn't do isn't the issue. If you are trying to establish that you have credibility and he doesn't, I'm just pointing out that you haven't accomplished that. Lawson, to clarify again, I'm not trying to give you a hard time, merely to point out what I see as a trend on this forum, and in the TMO itself. That is, that defenders of the faith seem more interested in draw- ing critics into head-to-head arguments than they are in establishing any supposed facts. Their purpose or intent seems to be *the arguments themselves*, driven by the belief that if they can get critics to argue with them, they can then try to erode the critics' credibility by portraying them as stupid or liars or whatever. That is *certainly* Judy's M.O., and has been for 18 years. I am hoping that it is not yours as well. It seems to me that a better case could be made for the efficacy of TM by merely stating the facts, and allowing lurkers or bystanders to make their own decisions. Trying to lead them into discounting what a critic says by practicing character assassin- ation against them kinda hints to me at a level of desperation in the defenders, not a sense of surety or faith. We're talking about research here. Cite the research, explain or spin it however you want, and then allow it to stand on its own. Or not. That would be the scientific thing to do. In my opinion, NO ONE HERE has any more credibility than anyone else. FFL is composed of typewritten words in cyberspace, typed for the most part by people we've never met. Some would like to *pretend* that they have more credibility than others, but it isn't true. Berating Vaj for not wanting to get sucked into Yet Another Infinite Argument that he *knows the purpose of* from long experience (to attempt to undermine his credibility and portray him as somehow possessed of evil intent) ain't really scoring you any points. All it points out is that you (and Judy) are frus- trated that so few critics these days are willing to be sucked into that silly game. If what you want to do is make a case for TM being a Good Thing, MAKE THAT CASE. Trying over and over and over and over to make the case that the critics are somehow bad people does NOT make that case. It only makes the case that as TM defenders you're more than willing to use that sad and desperate strategy. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 9:00 PM, sparaig wrote: I am speaking words and you are hearing different ones. THe most interesting research on TM has all been published since 1980. If evaluations of the significance of EEG results during TM don't look at the papers published in the last 30+ years, well, it is obvious that they are based on 30 year old research, now isn't it? If you're speaking of some new research I haven't heard of then, maybe. But unless you clearly list titles of papers then how the hell am I supposed to know what your foggy allusions are referring to? I'm not asking you to list them - I'm really not that interested. Relaxation response meditation is a good thing for many people.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Thing is, Unc, I've cited it many times. Vaj just ignores it. Seems to me that's his right. I'm going to ignore it, too, because what you posted *conveys no information*. It is a series of pointers to things that *you* feel are meaningful, but you haven't bothered to do the work to describe them, and why it might be worth someone else's time to examine them. Pick one or two of these studies that you feel are most important, and tell us WHY you think that. As it stands, you *have to know* that no one on this forum is going to click on any of the links provided, given one sentence from the Abstract and a URL. And why should they? YOU are the one with a bug up your butt about proving TM's efficacy. Most of the rest of us don't give a shit. If you want to make the case that some of this research makes a clear case for TM's value, describe that case and describe that value, in terms that might make a lay person inter- ested enough to read more. As it is, you provided a list that does not entice me to read *any* of it, and then used that list as the basis of a Vaj putdown: He just ignores it. Well, so did I. So will almost everyone here on this forum. And WHY? Because you didn't do the work to make any of this sound interesting enough to us to want to read more. You used it only to bash Vaj. Research on the physiological correlates of pure consciousness found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10512549 Pure consciousness: distinct phenomenological and physiological correlates of consciousness itself. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9009807 Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of Transcendental Consciousness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10487785 Autonomic and EEG patterns during eyes-closed rest and transcendental meditation (TM) practice: the basis for a neural model of TM practice. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19862565 A self-referential default brain state: patterns of coherence, power, and eLORETA sources during eyes-closed rest and Transcendental Meditation practice. Research on the physiological correlates of the stabilization of pure consciousness outside of meditation in long-term TM meditators: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12406612 Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states. http://www.tm.org/american-psychological-association Abstract for the 2007 Conference of the American Psychological Association Brain Integration Scale: Corroborating Language-based â¨Instruments of Post-conventional Development Research on the physiological correlates of the stabilization of pure consciousness outside of meditation in non-meditators: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1600-0838.2009.01007.x/full Higher psycho-physiological refinement in world-class Norwegian athletes: brain measures of performance capacity --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: If you won't list the papers, I won't respond. If you do list the papers I won't respond. Why is it so important to you that Vaj respond? He *does* have a point that you keep talking about newer research that you never define. Seems to me that if you wanted to call people's attention to that research, you could cite and describe it, whether Vaj chooses to respond or not. In other words, you keep harping on the supposed fact that comparative studies that were...uh... not impressed with TM ignored research after 1980. But you *also* ignore this research, in that you don't cite it. You just talk about its existence, in the same way that Joe McCarthy used to wave a blank piece of paper around and say, I have in my hand a list of 432 communists who work in the U.S. government. He never had to produce the list, only claim it existed. So far, you seem to be in the same ballpark. Yours and Judy's replies seem to be all about *whether you can get Vaj to argue with you*. It's pretty clear that THAT is your goal, *not* any critical examination of the supposed research itself. Just sayin'. I don't see any harm in listing these studies that you feel critics are missing, do you? And, since you know in advance that most here are not going to read them because...uh...they have lives, and they're not as heavily into the gotta defend TM thang as you are, why don't you synopsize what you feel are the most salient points of this newer research. Then people could get a feel for whether you are waving a blank piece of paper or one with writing on it. What Vaj does
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Sigh. Unc, all you're doing is taking sides. Vaj says you never show any research... no don't bother. Then, I show the research and you say: but you didn't pre-digest it for us. I don't have to pre-digest it for you OR Vaj. The fact that EEG research exists that was published 30 years AFTER the comments that Vaj cites to prove he doesn't need to look at new research is all that is needed to prove MY point: Vaj (and the people he likes) ignore the past 30 years of TM research. You then proceed to defend Vaj's stance as though he's made some kind of valid argument. It's not valid Unc. You either know it's not valid, and are every bit as deceitful as Judy claims you are, or are just plain stupid. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Thing is, Unc, I've cited it many times. Vaj just ignores it. Seems to me that's his right. I'm going to ignore it, too, because what you posted *conveys no information*. It is a series of pointers to things that *you* feel are meaningful, but you haven't bothered to do the work to describe them, and why it might be worth someone else's time to examine them. Pick one or two of these studies that you feel are most important, and tell us WHY you think that. As it stands, you *have to know* that no one on this forum is going to click on any of the links provided, given one sentence from the Abstract and a URL. And why should they? YOU are the one with a bug up your butt about proving TM's efficacy. Most of the rest of us don't give a shit. If you want to make the case that some of this research makes a clear case for TM's value, describe that case and describe that value, in terms that might make a lay person inter- ested enough to read more. As it is, you provided a list that does not entice me to read *any* of it, and then used that list as the basis of a Vaj putdown: He just ignores it. Well, so did I. So will almost everyone here on this forum. And WHY? Because you didn't do the work to make any of this sound interesting enough to us to want to read more. You used it only to bash Vaj. Research on the physiological correlates of pure consciousness found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10512549 Pure consciousness: distinct phenomenological and physiological correlates of consciousness itself. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9009807 Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of Transcendental Consciousness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10487785 Autonomic and EEG patterns during eyes-closed rest and transcendental meditation (TM) practice: the basis for a neural model of TM practice. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19862565 A self-referential default brain state: patterns of coherence, power, and eLORETA sources during eyes-closed rest and Transcendental Meditation practice. Research on the physiological correlates of the stabilization of pure consciousness outside of meditation in long-term TM meditators: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12406612 Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states. http://www.tm.org/american-psychological-association Abstract for the 2007 Conference of the American Psychological Association Brain Integration Scale: Corroborating Language-based â¨Instruments of Post-conventional Development Research on the physiological correlates of the stabilization of pure consciousness outside of meditation in non-meditators: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1600-0838.2009.01007.x/full Higher psycho-physiological refinement in world-class Norwegian athletes: brain measures of performance capacity --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: If you won't list the papers, I won't respond. If you do list the papers I won't respond. Why is it so important to you that Vaj respond? He *does* have a point that you keep talking about newer research that you never define. Seems to me that if you wanted to call people's attention to that research, you could cite and describe it, whether Vaj chooses to respond or not. In other words, you keep harping on the supposed fact that comparative studies that were...uh... not impressed with TM ignored research after 1980. But you *also* ignore this research, in that you don't cite it. You just talk about its existence, in the same way that Joe McCarthy used to wave a blank piece of paper around and say, I have in my hand a list
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Sigh. Unc, all you're doing is taking sides. Vaj says you never show any research... no don't bother. Then, I show the research and you say: but you didn't pre- digest it for us. I don't have to pre-digest it for you OR Vaj. The fact that EEG research exists that was published 30 years AFTER the comments that Vaj cites to prove he doesn't need to look at new research is all that is needed to prove MY point: Vaj (and the people he likes) ignore the past 30 years of TM research. So you admit that your only point in this is to prove Vaj and these other researchers wrong. NOT to say anything positive about TM. That was my whole point. You then proceed to defend Vaj's stance as though he's made some kind of valid argument. I did nothing of the kind. I said *nothing* about that. I criticized what *you* were doing, and hypothesized the reasons why I thought you were doing it. You have just confirmed that hypothesis. You didn't really care about presenting the data from the research you cite as a way of making a case for the efficacy of TM; you cared about presenting it only as a way to get Vaj. It's not valid Unc. You either know it's not valid, and are every bit as deceitful as Judy claims you are, or are just plain stupid. Would you care to look back over my posts this morning and reread what I suggested was the intent of defender posts like yours and Judy's? I think I suggested that your real motivation was to try to portray TM critics as deceitful and stupid. Now you've done just that. And *I* am the one who is stupid? :-) I think I've made my point (with your help). I don't believe for a moment that you actually care about pre- senting any of this research for the benefit of those wanting to learn more about TM and why it might be good for them. I believe that you have confirmed that your only real motivation is to get Vaj. And now me. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Thing is, Unc, I've cited it many times. Vaj just ignores it. Seems to me that's his right. I'm going to ignore it, too, because what you posted *conveys no information*. It is a series of pointers to things that *you* feel are meaningful, but you haven't bothered to do the work to describe them, and why it might be worth someone else's time to examine them. Pick one or two of these studies that you feel are most important, and tell us WHY you think that. As it stands, you *have to know* that no one on this forum is going to click on any of the links provided, given one sentence from the Abstract and a URL. And why should they? YOU are the one with a bug up your butt about proving TM's efficacy. Most of the rest of us don't give a shit. If you want to make the case that some of this research makes a clear case for TM's value, describe that case and describe that value, in terms that might make a lay person inter- ested enough to read more. As it is, you provided a list that does not entice me to read *any* of it, and then used that list as the basis of a Vaj putdown: He just ignores it. Well, so did I. So will almost everyone here on this forum. And WHY? Because you didn't do the work to make any of this sound interesting enough to us to want to read more. You used it only to bash Vaj. Research on the physiological correlates of pure consciousness found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10512549 Pure consciousness: distinct phenomenological and physiological correlates of consciousness itself. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9009807 Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of Transcendental Consciousness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10487785 Autonomic and EEG patterns during eyes-closed rest and transcendental meditation (TM) practice: the basis for a neural model of TM practice. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19862565 A self-referential default brain state: patterns of coherence, power, and eLORETA sources during eyes-closed rest and Transcendental Meditation practice. Research on the physiological correlates of the stabilization of pure consciousness outside of meditation in long-term TM meditators: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12406612 Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states. http://www.tm.org/american-psychological-association Abstract for the 2007 Conference of the American Psychological Association Brain Integration Scale: Corroborating
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Sigh... Vaj takes a stance where he uses derogatory terms (sometimes going beyond insulting to the point of genuine libel) when describing TM researchers and you ignore his rhetoric. I point out that Vaj ignores everything that has been published in the past 30 years, and you accuse me of trying to score points. Well, yes, since my original statement was to counter Vaj's claims, that's all I'm trying to do is score points -points that counter Vaj's claims. I have no intent to educate you or Vaj or anyone else on what the latest research says when I merely assert that Vaj is wrong to ignore the latest research. You seem unable to accept this as a valid stance to take in this sub-thread: I don't care what Vaj believes or what you believe. I was merely setting the record straight concerning what Vaj has asserted about the past 30 years of TM research: it DOES exist and is being ignored by the researchers that Vaj likes to cite. Ironically, people like Fred Travis do NOT ignore the latest research on other meditation techniques. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Sigh. Unc, all you're doing is taking sides. Vaj says you never show any research... no don't bother. Then, I show the research and you say: but you didn't pre- digest it for us. I don't have to pre-digest it for you OR Vaj. The fact that EEG research exists that was published 30 years AFTER the comments that Vaj cites to prove he doesn't need to look at new research is all that is needed to prove MY point: Vaj (and the people he likes) ignore the past 30 years of TM research. So you admit that your only point in this is to prove Vaj and these other researchers wrong. NOT to say anything positive about TM. That was my whole point. You then proceed to defend Vaj's stance as though he's made some kind of valid argument. I did nothing of the kind. I said *nothing* about that. I criticized what *you* were doing, and hypothesized the reasons why I thought you were doing it. You have just confirmed that hypothesis. You didn't really care about presenting the data from the research you cite as a way of making a case for the efficacy of TM; you cared about presenting it only as a way to get Vaj. It's not valid Unc. You either know it's not valid, and are every bit as deceitful as Judy claims you are, or are just plain stupid. Would you care to look back over my posts this morning and reread what I suggested was the intent of defender posts like yours and Judy's? I think I suggested that your real motivation was to try to portray TM critics as deceitful and stupid. Now you've done just that. And *I* am the one who is stupid? :-) I think I've made my point (with your help). I don't believe for a moment that you actually care about pre- senting any of this research for the benefit of those wanting to learn more about TM and why it might be good for them. I believe that you have confirmed that your only real motivation is to get Vaj. And now me. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Thing is, Unc, I've cited it many times. Vaj just ignores it. Seems to me that's his right. I'm going to ignore it, too, because what you posted *conveys no information*. It is a series of pointers to things that *you* feel are meaningful, but you haven't bothered to do the work to describe them, and why it might be worth someone else's time to examine them. Pick one or two of these studies that you feel are most important, and tell us WHY you think that. As it stands, you *have to know* that no one on this forum is going to click on any of the links provided, given one sentence from the Abstract and a URL. And why should they? YOU are the one with a bug up your butt about proving TM's efficacy. Most of the rest of us don't give a shit. If you want to make the case that some of this research makes a clear case for TM's value, describe that case and describe that value, in terms that might make a lay person inter- ested enough to read more. As it is, you provided a list that does not entice me to read *any* of it, and then used that list as the basis of a Vaj putdown: He just ignores it. Well, so did I. So will almost everyone here on this forum. And WHY? Because you didn't do the work to make any of this sound interesting enough to us to want to read more. You used it only to bash Vaj. Research on the physiological correlates of pure consciousness found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10512549
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Sigh... Vaj takes a stance where he uses derogatory terms (sometimes going beyond insulting to the point of genuine libel) when describing TM researchers and you ignore his rhetoric. OF COURSE I ignore his rhetoric. I have nothing to prove one way or another. If you're asking whether I'm aware that Vaj has a significant bias in the things he says, OF COURSE I am. But that doesn't push my buttons. It DOES push yours. THAT has been my point in this exchange of posts with you this morning. You're being played. You've been suckered (by Vaj, through his use of language, but also by Judy, who just wants another pile on Vaj minion in play) to over-react emotionally to what he says about TM and TM research, and play shoot the messenger. I point out that Vaj ignores everything that has been published in the past 30 years, and you accuse me of trying to score points. OF COURSE you're trying to score points. Duh. I am amazed that you would even try to deny it. Well, yes, since my original statement was to counter Vaj's claims, that's all I'm trying to do is score points -points that counter Vaj's claims. But you're missing MY point. You've been suckered -- by Vaj, but also by Judy, who wants this kind of get Vaj mentality to proliferate -- into trotting out the classic TMO mentality and trying to shoot the messenger. Do you actually BELIEVE that anyone sees this behavior and *doesn't* see the desperation and reactiveness that underlies it? My point, Lawson, is that YOU might have some positive things to say -- about TM, about this research, about TM's supposed efficacy. But you've *settled* for trying to counter Vaj or score points on Vaj or get Vaj. That's what Judy does, and I suspect that by now even you have understood that very few are impressed by her act, or see it as anything but the vindictive bitchiness it is. YOU could offer more. But you don't. I have no intent to educate you or Vaj or anyone else on what the latest research says when I merely assert that Vaj is wrong to ignore the latest research. That's what I just said. Your defend TM posture is just that, a posture. You don't really care about promoting TM or correcting any possible misconceptions about it or the research into it. All you care about is getting Vaj, because he's w-w-w-wrong. You seem unable to accept this as a valid stance to take in this sub-thread: I see it as rather sad, and a waste of a good mind -- yours. I don't care what Vaj believes or what you believe. I was merely setting the record straight... Meaning prove Vaj wrong. ...concerning what Vaj has asserted about the past 30 years of TM research: it DOES exist and is being ignored by the researchers that Vaj likes to cite. And you STILL haven't done a very good job of this. All that you *have* done is to post a few URLs that no one here will ever click on, *because they aren't as over- emotionally invested in either 'protecting TM' or 'getting Vaj' as you are*. Ironically, people like Fred Travis do NOT ignore the latest research on other meditation techniques. And so what? He's actually trying to do some research. All you're trying to do -- by your own admission -- is prove Vaj wrong. Big difference. I'm trying to point out, Lawson, that either your meds are slipping or Judy has managed to suck you back into her eternal quest to get Vaj. You're engaged in a get Vaj fest here. What you are NOT engaged in is anything positive, anything that could provide people with any real and useful information about TM. Above you have said as much yourself. Your only interest in this is proving Vaj (and these other researchers) wrong. You have no interest in presenting -- and in a readable, interesting fashion -- what you think is right. I think that's sad, and a waste of a good mind. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Sigh. Unc, all you're doing is taking sides. Vaj says you never show any research... no don't bother. Then, I show the research and you say: but you didn't pre- digest it for us. I don't have to pre-digest it for you OR Vaj. The fact that EEG research exists that was published 30 years AFTER the comments that Vaj cites to prove he doesn't need to look at new research is all that is needed to prove MY point: Vaj (and the people he likes) ignore the past 30 years of TM research. So you admit that your only point in this is to prove Vaj and these other researchers wrong. NOT to say anything positive about TM. That was my whole point. You then proceed to defend Vaj's stance as though he's made some kind of valid argument. I did nothing of the kind. I said *nothing* about that. I criticized what *you* were doing, and hypothesized the reasons why I thought you
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 24, 2012, at 9:30 PM, sparaig wrote: If you won't list the papers, I won't respond. If you do list the papers I won't respond. I'm just saying don't waste your time unless it's something new - I've heard it all before.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
We've discussed these before, it's nothing new. Since they've never ever come close to showing this magical pure consciousness exists most of this is moot! As the Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness points out these pure consciousness claims are best seen as metaphysical assertions. Since the earlier research failed to find anything significant and independent researchers were able to find that the EEG is the same as other relaxation techniques you would have thought these people would have taken another tack on their pure con! The most damning thing is that is already known is that when independent researchers used proper controls in EEG on TMers, there was nothing special going on at all. It's the same as someone relaxing. So it sounds like someone needs to show these guys how to stop designing poor studies. On Apr 25, 2012, at 4:28 AM, sparaig wrote: Thing is, Unc, I've cited it many times. Vaj just ignores it. Research on the physiological correlates of pure consciousness found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10512549 Pure consciousness: distinct phenomenological and physiological correlates of consciousness itself. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9009807 Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of Transcendental Consciousness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10487785 Autonomic and EEG patterns during eyes-closed rest and transcendental meditation (TM) practice: the basis for a neural model of TM practice. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19862565 A self-referential default brain state: patterns of coherence, power, and eLORETA sources during eyes-closed rest and Transcendental Meditation practice. Research on the physiological correlates of the stabilization of pure consciousness outside of meditation in long-term TM meditators: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12406612 Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states. http://www.tm.org/american-psychological-association Abstract for the 2007 Conference of the American Psychological Association Brain Integration Scale: Corroborating Language-based â €¨Instruments of Post-conventional Development Research on the physiological correlates of the stabilization of pure consciousness outside of meditation in non-meditators: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1600-0838.2009.01007.x/ full Higher psycho-physiological refinement in world-class Norwegian athletes: brain measures of performance capacity --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: If you won't list the papers, I won't respond. If you do list the papers I won't respond. Why is it so important to you that Vaj respond? He *does* have a point that you keep talking about newer research that you never define. Seems to me that if you wanted to call people's attention to that research, you could cite and describe it, whether Vaj chooses to respond or not. In other words, you keep harping on the supposed fact that comparative studies that were...uh... not impressed with TM ignored research after 1980. But you *also* ignore this research, in that you don't cite it. You just talk about its existence, in the same way that Joe McCarthy used to wave a blank piece of paper around and say, I have in my hand a list of 432 communists who work in the U.S. government. He never had to produce the list, only claim it existed. So far, you seem to be in the same ballpark. Yours and Judy's replies seem to be all about *whether you can get Vaj to argue with you*. It's pretty clear that THAT is your goal, *not* any critical examination of the supposed research itself. Just sayin'. I don't see any harm in listing these studies that you feel critics are missing, do you? And, since you know in advance that most here are not going to read them because...uh...they have lives, and they're not as heavily into the gotta defend TM thang as you are, why don't you synopsize what you feel are the most salient points of this newer research. Then people could get a feel for whether you are waving a blank piece of paper or one with writing on it. What Vaj does or doesn't do isn't the issue. If you are trying to establish that you have credibility and he doesn't, I'm just pointing out that you haven't accomplished that. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 9:00 PM, sparaig wrote: I am speaking words and you are hearing different ones. THe most interesting research on TM has all been published since 1980. If evaluations of the significance of EEG results during TM don't look at the papers
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 25, 2012, at 5:11 AM, sparaig wrote: Sigh. Unc, all you're doing is taking sides. Vaj says you never show any research... no don't bother. Actually you've showed this steaming pile of turds before. Thanks for showing it again. It's all been refuted. Before.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 25, 2012, at 5:22 AM, turquoiseb wrote: So you admit that your only point in this is to prove Vaj and these other researchers wrong. NOT to say anything positive about TM. That was my whole point. We've discussed this before, the reasons it's BS has been explained to Lawson many times before. He never hears why this is so and just parrots the same old memorized lines. Lawson has OCD. He's obsessed with these bad studies. We're likely not going to change that - it's just his illness talking, likely exacerbated by TM addiction.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
I was aware of Swami Rama's demonstrations at the Menninger Institute in Topeka, but understood that he was able to produce theta waves that were associated with sleep but still remain aware of what the researchers were doing and saying around him as he produced those brainwaves for short period, rather than actually observed asleep and later tested for recall of events while asleep. Nevertheless, pretty accomplished behavior. And certain types of yogic sleep you mention, thoses are cultivated, specialized states rather than normal sleep with awareness unabated, right? *** --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 8:28 PM, marekreavis wrote: *** This is a new concept for me. It was never my understanding that not losing awareness in sleep, as referenced by Maharishi and the TMO, meant remaining aware of sensory data or awareness of events through mechanisms outside the physical senses. Probably the most famous demonstration of this was Swami Rama, as he wired up at the Menninger Institute in Kansas and voluntarily went in deep sleep while listening to everything that went on in the room. Much to the shock of the researchers who talked and walked around while he was sleeping, as he told then the details of what went on and what was said. Is it your belief or experience that this occurs? And quite possibly I don't understand your assertion. It would seem that for all persons, whether realized or not, during sleep the sensory apparatus is disengaged, so any stimulus normally appreciated by a sense organ would not be experienced. Is your belief that the senses remain active for an enlightened individual even if asleep? In certain styles of yogic sleep, yes the person is aware of their surroundings as they sleep. Maharishi tried to actually test this at MIU - one subject in particular (who's been on this list). I still have the press blurb on it somewhere. Or is there some sort of super sensory awareness that comes online with enlightenment that retrieves normal sensory data but without the intermediate mechanism of the sense organs? If that is the case, are there limits to that faculty's range? It's part of the simultaneity that comes with samadhi. Instead of having to take in sensory data in linear snips, one can kind of parallel process rather than serial processing. Once one has access to the deaths that separate waking, dreaming or sleeping, a lot becomes possible that wasn't before. Thanks for any reply. Like I said, this is a brand new concept for me.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 25, 2012, at 9:34 AM, marekreavis wrote: I was aware of Swami Rama's demonstrations at the Menninger Institute in Topeka, but understood that he was able to produce theta waves that were associated with sleep but still remain aware of what the researchers were doing and saying around him as he produced those brainwaves for short period, rather than actually observed asleep and later tested for recall of events while asleep. Nevertheless, pretty accomplished behavior. And certain types of yogic sleep you mention, thoses are cultivated, specialized states rather than normal sleep with awareness unabated, right? No, while you do see them in many different yogic schools, the techniques themselves are pretty similar. Any tradition that claims to develop awareness all the time will have them. For example in the Shankaracharya tradition, there were sleep yogas from the Gaudapada school which helped develop a panoramic awareness.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Vaj takes a stance where he uses derogatory terms turquoiseb: OF COURSE I ignore his rhetoric. I have nothing to prove one way or another... Well, that's a thought-stopper!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Vaj takes a stance where he uses derogatory terms turquoiseb: OF COURSE I ignore his rhetoric. I have nothing to prove one way or another... Well, that's a thought-stopper!
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
There's no such thing as proper controls in an EEG study on hand-picked subjects. The subjects in many of the Pure Consciousness studies were selected because they were self-reporting regular periods of Pure Consciousness. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: We've discussed these before, it's nothing new. Since they've never ever come close to showing this magical pure consciousness exists most of this is moot! As the Cambridge Handbook of Consciousness points out these pure consciousness claims are best seen as metaphysical assertions. Since the earlier research failed to find anything significant and independent researchers were able to find that the EEG is the same as other relaxation techniques you would have thought these people would have taken another tack on their pure con! The most damning thing is that is already known is that when independent researchers used proper controls in EEG on TMers, there was nothing special going on at all. It's the same as someone relaxing. So it sounds like someone needs to show these guys how to stop designing poor studies. On Apr 25, 2012, at 4:28 AM, sparaig wrote: Thing is, Unc, I've cited it many times. Vaj just ignores it. Research on the physiological correlates of pure consciousness found during TM practice: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/7045911 Breath suspension during the transcendental meditation technique. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10512549 Pure consciousness: distinct phenomenological and physiological correlates of consciousness itself. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9009807 Autonomic patterns during respiratory suspensions: possible markers of Transcendental Consciousness. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/10487785 Autonomic and EEG patterns during eyes-closed rest and transcendental meditation (TM) practice: the basis for a neural model of TM practice. http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19862565 A self-referential default brain state: patterns of coherence, power, and eLORETA sources during eyes-closed rest and Transcendental Meditation practice. Research on the physiological correlates of the stabilization of pure consciousness outside of meditation in long-term TM meditators: http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12406612 Patterns of EEG coherence, power, and contingent negative variation characterize the integration of transcendental and waking states. http://www.tm.org/american-psychological-association Abstract for the 2007 Conference of the American Psychological Association Brain Integration Scale: Corroborating Language-based � ��Instruments of Post-conventional Development Research on the physiological correlates of the stabilization of pure consciousness outside of meditation in non-meditators: http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10./j.1600-0838.2009.01007.x/ full Higher psycho-physiological refinement in world-class Norwegian athletes: brain measures of performance capacity --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: If you won't list the papers, I won't respond. If you do list the papers I won't respond. Why is it so important to you that Vaj respond? He *does* have a point that you keep talking about newer research that you never define. Seems to me that if you wanted to call people's attention to that research, you could cite and describe it, whether Vaj chooses to respond or not. In other words, you keep harping on the supposed fact that comparative studies that were...uh... not impressed with TM ignored research after 1980. But you *also* ignore this research, in that you don't cite it. You just talk about its existence, in the same way that Joe McCarthy used to wave a blank piece of paper around and say, I have in my hand a list of 432 communists who work in the U.S. government. He never had to produce the list, only claim it existed. So far, you seem to be in the same ballpark. Yours and Judy's replies seem to be all about *whether you can get Vaj to argue with you*. It's pretty clear that THAT is your goal, *not* any critical examination of the supposed research itself. Just sayin'. I don't see any harm in listing these studies that you feel critics are missing, do you? And, since you know in advance that most here are not going to read them because...uh...they have lives, and they're not as heavily into the gotta defend TM thang as you are, why don't you synopsize what you feel are the most salient points of this newer research. Then people could get a feel for whether you are waving a blank piece of paper or one with writing on it. What Vaj does or doesn't do isn't the issue. If you are
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 5:11 AM, sparaig wrote: Sigh. Unc, all you're doing is taking sides. Vaj says you never show any research... no don't bother. Actually you've showed this steaming pile of turds before. Thanks for showing it again. It's all been refuted. Before. Only in your own mind. BTW, referring to someone's professional work as a steaming pile of turds isn't very compassionate. I thought you were Buddhist. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 25, 2012, at 1:41 PM, sparaig wrote: Only in your own mind. BTW, referring to someone's professional work as a steaming pile of turds isn't very compassionate. I thought you were Buddhist. I was being compassionate, believe me.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 4:37 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: [...] You were the one who settled for witnessing 24/7 as a significator of enlightenment (CC), or even the beginnings of it. I do not. I have higher standards. I was merely reminding you that Maharishi did, too. What higher standard did MMY have for the beginnings of CC? He believed for one that one would remain conscious of one's environment while still fast asleep. This isn't really from M. though, it's a traditional well known criteria for yogic sleep which dawns as awareness expands beyond the three spheres of waking, dreaming and sleeping. Because he believed this, they invented an experiment whereby special glasses would flash while the CC'er slept and the awake one would blink in response, all the while remaining asleep. All the subjects failed. Well this is an interesting form of reasoning, no? He believed P But he didn't really believe P Because he believed P...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, sparaig wrote: There's no such thing as proper controls in an EEG study on hand- picked subjects. The subjects in many of the Pure Consciousness studies were selected because they were self-reporting regular periods of Pure Consciousness What you meant to say is they didn't use any because they wanted to handpick their results. It's meaningless to test EEG without EEG controls.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
...referring to someone's professional work as a steaming pile of turds isn't very compassionate. I thought you were Buddhist. Vaj: I was being compassionate, believe me. Well, I think Lawson has pretty much proved his point about research on TM. You didn't cite anyone or any research at all to prove your point about Buddhist meditation. The problem is, Vaj, has got no credibility here, since it's well known that he is biased against MMY. Every claim made by researchers into 'Buddhist' meditation would tend to prove the efficacy of TM practice, not disprove it. In reality there is no 'Buddhist' meditation - it's just meditation based on the ancient yoga tradition of India, which existed long before the advent of the historical Buddha. So, I think I'll take the word of Dr. Alan Wallace and Dr. Robert K. Wallace, over an E.R. doctor on Wikileaks who never learned TM or did any original research of his own. According to B. Alan Wallace: He proposes that the nature of consciousness can most deeply be studied from a first-person perspective, and not be limited to the third-person methodologies of psychology and cognitive neuroscience. Read more: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/B._Alan_Wallace 'Contemplative Science' by B. Alan_Wallace Where Buddhism and Neuroscience Converge Columbia Series in Science and Religion Columbia University Press, 2009 Amazon: http://tinyurl.com/8y94e7h
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Not all studies require controls. Some of the early Pure Consciousness studies were merely trying to establish what physiological correlates (if any) could be found for the self-reports of Pure Consciousness episodes. Control groups don't really make sense in that context. L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, sparaig wrote: There's no such thing as proper controls in an EEG study on hand- picked subjects. The subjects in many of the Pure Consciousness studies were selected because they were self-reporting regular periods of Pure Consciousness What you meant to say is they didn't use any because they wanted to handpick their results. It's meaningless to test EEG without EEG controls.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, sparaig wrote: There's no such thing as proper controls in an EEG study on hand- picked subjects. The subjects in many of the Pure Consciousness studies were selected because they were self-reporting regular periods of Pure Consciousness What you meant to say is they didn't use any because they wanted to handpick their results. It's meaningless to test EEG without EEG controls. What Vaj means to say is, Of course I know that whether EEG controls are needed for results to be considered valid depends entirely on what the purpose of the study is. But I'll pretend this isn't the case. Or perhaps he doesn't know, in which case he's grossly ignorant. What would be meaningless would be to use controls in a study of the type Lawson is talking about.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Not all studies require controls. Some of the early Pure Consciousness studies were merely trying to establish what physiological correlates (if any) could be found for the self-reports of Pure Consciousness episodes. Control groups don't really make sense in that context. Because this is special science, doncha know? You don't need the control groups you need in any other EEG study if you're doing special science. You don't need to compare the results you expected to find to any kind of baseline because...let's face it...no baseline can possibly compare meaningfully to the special thing we're researching. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, sparaig wrote: There's no such thing as proper controls in an EEG study on hand- picked subjects. The subjects in many of the Pure Consciousness studies were selected because they were self-reporting regular periods of Pure Consciousness What you meant to say is they didn't use any because they wanted to handpick their results. It's meaningless to test EEG without EEG controls.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
In an exploratory study on Pure Consciousness, the only baseline needed is between episodes of pure consciousness and the rest of the meditation period. The subjects provide their own baseline. Once you establish that there is a distinction that can be made in those specific subjects, you can then start to compare them with people who don't report regular episodes of pure consciousness, but until you establish that there is something to study, using a control group makes no real sense. You don't even know what to be looking for in the first place. L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Not all studies require controls. Some of the early Pure Consciousness studies were merely trying to establish what physiological correlates (if any) could be found for the self-reports of Pure Consciousness episodes. Control groups don't really make sense in that context. Because this is special science, doncha know? You don't need the control groups you need in any other EEG study if you're doing special science. You don't need to compare the results you expected to find to any kind of baseline because...let's face it...no baseline can possibly compare meaningfully to the special thing we're researching. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, sparaig wrote: There's no such thing as proper controls in an EEG study on hand- picked subjects. The subjects in many of the Pure Consciousness studies were selected because they were self-reporting regular periods of Pure Consciousness What you meant to say is they didn't use any because they wanted to handpick their results. It's meaningless to test EEG without EEG controls.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: In an exploratory study on Pure Consciousness, the only baseline needed is between episodes of pure consciousness and the rest of the meditation period. The subjects provide their own baseline. Once you establish that there is a distinction that can be made in those specific subjects, you can then start to compare them with people who don't report regular episodes of pure consciousness, but until you establish that there is something to study, using a control group makes no real sense. You don't even know what to be looking for in the first place. So like I said, special science. Why are you replying? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Not all studies require controls. Some of the early Pure Consciousness studies were merely trying to establish what physiological correlates (if any) could be found for the self-reports of Pure Consciousness episodes. Control groups don't really make sense in that context. Because this is special science, doncha know? You don't need the control groups you need in any other EEG study if you're doing special science. You don't need to compare the results you expected to find to any kind of baseline because...let's face it...no baseline can possibly compare meaningfully to the special thing we're researching. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, sparaig wrote: There's no such thing as proper controls in an EEG study on hand- picked subjects. The subjects in many of the Pure Consciousness studies were selected because they were self-reporting regular periods of Pure Consciousness What you meant to say is they didn't use any because they wanted to handpick their results. It's meaningless to test EEG without EEG controls.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 25, 2012, at 3:20 PM, turquoiseb wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Not all studies require controls. Some of the early Pure Consciousness studies were merely trying to establish what physiological correlates (if any) could be found for the self-reports of Pure Consciousness episodes. Control groups don't really make sense in that context. Because this is special science, doncha know? You don't need the control groups you need in any other EEG study if you're doing special science. You don't need to compare the results you expected to find to any kind of baseline because...let's face it...no baseline can possibly compare meaningfully to the special thing we're researching. How could you have a baseline when you’re comparing to the ocean of creative intelligence! It’s just not Vedic. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 25, 2012, at 3:26 PM, sparaig wrote:In an exploratory study on Pure Consciousness, the only baseline needed is between episodes of pure consciousness and the rest of the meditation period. The subjects provide their own baseline.Once you establish that there is a distinction that can be made in those specific subjects, you can then start to compare them with people who don't report regular episodes of pure consciousness, but until you establish that there is something to study, using a control group makes no real sense. You don't even know what to be looking for in the first place.Well, like it or not, when controls are used it makes TM look rather ordinary:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 3:26 PM, sparaig wrote: In an exploratory study on Pure Consciousness, the only baseline needed is between episodes of pure consciousness and the rest of the meditation period. The subjects provide their own baseline. Once you establish that there is a distinction that can be made in those specific subjects, you can then start to compare them with people who don't report regular episodes of pure consciousness, but until you establish that there is something to study, using a control group makes no real sense. You don't even know what to be looking for in the first place. Well, like it or not, when controls are used it makes TM look rather ordinary: Shrug, if that is the case, than the new DoD research on PTSD and TM will show this more and more as time goes on. I'm prepared to be disappointed. Are you? L
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: In an exploratory study on Pure Consciousness, the only baseline needed is between episodes of pure consciousness and the rest of the meditation period. The subjects provide their own baseline. Once you establish that there is a distinction that can be made in those specific subjects, you can then start to compare them with people who don't report regular episodes of pure consciousness, but until you establish that there is something to study, using a control group makes no real sense. You don't even know what to be looking for in the first place. So like I said, special science. Why are you replying? That's not special science, Barry. Such studies could be looking for all kinds of things completely unrelated to TM. It's a standard methodology for that kind of exploratory study. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Not all studies require controls. Some of the early Pure Consciousness studies were merely trying to establish what physiological correlates (if any) could be found for the self-reports of Pure Consciousness episodes. Control groups don't really make sense in that context. Because this is special science, doncha know? You don't need the control groups you need in any other EEG study if you're doing special science. You don't need to compare the results you expected to find to any kind of baseline because...let's face it...no baseline can possibly compare meaningfully to the special thing we're researching. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, sparaig wrote: There's no such thing as proper controls in an EEG study on hand- picked subjects. The subjects in many of the Pure Consciousness studies were selected because they were self-reporting regular periods of Pure Consciousness What you meant to say is they didn't use any because they wanted to handpick their results. It's meaningless to test EEG without EEG controls.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
You don't need to compare the results you expected to find to any kind of baseline because...let's face it...no baseline can possibly compare meaningfully to the special thing we're researching. Vaj: How could you have a baseline when you're comparing to the ocean of creative intelligence! It's just not Vedic. :-) In the Vedic paradigm, the unified field is therefore not only the source of matter, but also-because it is pure consciousness-the source of mind. I is the common source of mind and body, of subjective experience and material creation. - B. Alan Wallace 'Esoteric Anatomy' The Body as Consciousness by Bruce Burger http://tinyurl.com/7zj566d
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: In an exploratory study on Pure Consciousness, the only baseline needed is between episodes of pure consciousness and the rest of the meditation period. The subjects provide their own baseline. Once you establish that there is a distinction that can be made in those specific subjects, you can then start to compare them with people who don't report regular episodes of pure consciousness, but until you establish that there is something to study, using a control group makes no real sense. You don't even know what to be looking for in the first place. So like I said, special science. Why are you replying? That's not special science, Barry. Such studies could be looking for all kinds of things completely unrelated to TM. It's a standard methodology for that kind of exploratory study. That is right preliminary studies are just scientists fishing around for an effect they can write a paper about or make a discovery. These early studies are often just not all that good. The study that first brought attention to the placebo effect is one; it has since been discovered it was not properly controlled and does not actually confirm the effect it claimed. But others took up the mantle, and the placebo effect is now a well established biological fact, as well as an incredibly difficult effect to control for in experiments involving human subjects (and experimenters). Later studies tend to show the discovered effect, whatever it is, is usually less, often much less than the initial studies implied, for with more researchers, better ideas how to control for variables tend to come to the fore. If the discovered effect has important implications, sample sizes in later studies also tend to improve. Ideally each group (experimental group, control group, etc.) in a study should contain at least several hundred persons. This can present economic difficulties in getting a study done properly. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Not all studies require controls. Some of the early Pure Consciousness studies were merely trying to establish what physiological correlates (if any) could be found for the self-reports of Pure Consciousness episodes. Control groups don't really make sense in that context. Because this is special science, doncha know? You don't need the control groups you need in any other EEG study if you're doing special science. You don't need to compare the results you expected to find to any kind of baseline because...let's face it...no baseline can possibly compare meaningfully to the special thing we're researching. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, sparaig wrote: There's no such thing as proper controls in an EEG study on hand- picked subjects. The subjects in many of the Pure Consciousness studies were selected because they were self-reporting regular periods of Pure Consciousness What you meant to say is they didn't use any because they wanted to handpick their results. It's meaningless to test EEG without EEG controls.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: In an exploratory study on Pure Consciousness, the only baseline needed is between episodes of pure consciousness and the rest of the meditation period. The subjects provide their own baseline. Once you establish that there is a distinction that can be made in those specific subjects, you can then start to compare them with people who don't report regular episodes of pure consciousness, but until you establish that there is something to study, using a control group makes no real sense. You don't even know what to be looking for in the first place. So like I said, special science. Why are you replying? I just wanted to get back to this for a moment, because it's such an outstanding example of the arrogance of ignorance. Barry was wrong to call it special science. Lawson patiently explained why. And Barry responds, not having understood what Lawson was telling him, reasserting his mistake, and then asking, Why are you replying? This is why it's sometimes necessary to shoot the messenger. When the messenger carries a false message-- whether he's aware of it or not--and tries to throw his weight around as if his false message was the last word, you need to do what you can to make sure anyone who might be affected by his messages knows he can't be trusted. It's not impossible that at some point this messenger could carry an authentic, accurate message without knowing it. The point is you need to verify any message from him with some more reliable source before you take it seriously, because he doesn't care, and doesn't even know how to tell, whether it's accurate or not. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Not all studies require controls. Some of the early Pure Consciousness studies were merely trying to establish what physiological correlates (if any) could be found for the self-reports of Pure Consciousness episodes. Control groups don't really make sense in that context. Because this is special science, doncha know? You don't need the control groups you need in any other EEG study if you're doing special science. You don't need to compare the results you expected to find to any kind of baseline because...let's face it...no baseline can possibly compare meaningfully to the special thing we're researching. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 1:40 PM, sparaig wrote: There's no such thing as proper controls in an EEG study on hand- picked subjects. The subjects in many of the Pure Consciousness studies were selected because they were self-reporting regular periods of Pure Consciousness What you meant to say is they didn't use any because they wanted to handpick their results. It's meaningless to test EEG without EEG controls.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: Later studies tend to show the discovered effect, whatever it is, is usually less, often much less than the initial studies implied, for with more researchers, better ideas how to control for variables tend to come to the fore. If the discovered effect has important implications, sample sizes in later studies also tend to improve. Ideally each group (experimental group, control group, etc.) in a study should contain at least several hundred persons. This can present economic difficulties in getting a study done properly. I believe I pointed out that the US military is getting into meditation research in a big way. The two techniques they appear to be focusing on are mindfulness and TM. I am reasonably confident that whatever the military discovers will be based on impartial research because their orientation is on results, and not what simply confirms their own spiritual belief system. It is entirely possible that TM will be found better on some measures, and mindfulness will be found better on some measures. I can live with that. I wonder if Vaj and Barry can. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: Actually, Nablus was referring to the rather esoteric discussion that Judy and I were having about a very subtle poitn about effortlessness during TM. Lawson, not to argue but to clarify, I haven't felt the need to weigh in on this one because the whole discussion strikes me as not only not esoteric, nor high-level, but like grownups discussing the best way to stack alphabet blocks -- the way they learned how to do it from their teacher while still back in kinder- garten -- while considering the discussion to be on the level of two architects discussing the best way to build a skyscraper. In other words, from my point of view you are talking about your subjective experiences of a beginner's technique of meditation, not only oblivious to the word beginner's, but while clinging to the notion that what you are saying is somewhat advanced because the technique you are discussing is so advanced. Some of us don't see it that way, and haven't for over thirty years. That's *not* the voice of elitism, merely the voice of *experience* in the intervening years with other techniques, many of which we find more interesting. I saw this whole discussion -- as well as recent discussions about the TM science -- as clear demonstrations of one of the wise sayings Rick placed on the FFL home page. That is, an exercise in the will to believe, as opposed to the wish to find out.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
To further clarify, I've been seeing a LOT of discussions at Fairfield Life lately devolve (or evolve, depending on one's point of view) into an re-enactment of the Bertrand Russell quote on the FFL home page: What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to find out, which is the exact opposite. In this latest round of the re-enactment, it seems to me that Nabby, Lawson, and Judy are taking the will to believe position. Their comments seem (to me) driven by the desire to believe that Maharishi knew what he was doing in setting things up the way that he did, and that his description of How Meditation Works was RIGHT. There is also an undercurrent or subtext that (to me) conveys WHY they believe that he knew what he was doing: 1) because it *was* RIGHT -- he did what he did with the full support of the Laws Of Nature and from the platform of supposed enlightenment, so *of course* it was RIGHT, and 2) it was RIGHT because *I* bought into it. It should be obvious that I believe neither piece of subtext. I think that Maharishi was -- pretty much from the beginning -- improvising his way through things, trying things out and if they seemed to work, sticking with them, and if they didn't, ignoring them and hoping that everyone else would ignore them, too, and pretend that the failures had never happened. Fortunately for him, the True Believer mindset is almost always willing to do this, out of fear of addressing the other possibility -- that they placed their faith in someone who might not have always deserved it. Vaj takes another POV on all of this. On the basis of some- thing that the others *do not have* -- experience with other forms of meditation, and other ways of viewing the dogma of and the mechanics of meditation. He does NOT feel constrained to use the proper language to describe what happens in TM. And THAT, in my opinion, is one of the things that the others are reacting to most strongly in him. Vaj (and myself, and Curtis) are off the reservation. We *no longer believe* that the way Maharishi taught us to consider and describe meditation is the best way, or the only way. We are, in fact, more comfortable with our own ways of seeing meditation and describing it. To the True Believer mindset, this is heresy. It displays a lack of respect and a possible danger to those hearing these heretical words. But stop for a minute and LOOK at that reaction, and what it's based on. The people feeling this way were taught -- and not only chose to believe it in their youth but *still* believe it in their dotage -- that there really IS only one RIGHT way to do things like teach meditation, or experience meditation, or describe what they experience. They actually experience a twinge of fear or regret or reluctance when they find themselves describing things using language that isn't 100% certified by Maharishi. That's the will to believe working. Some of us no longer have that will going for us. We seek only the wish to find out. If what we find out means that we wind up agree- ing with some facet of what Maharishi said, fine. If we wind up disagreeing, fine. Neither is better or higher or more noble or more evolved. To us, Maharishi was JUST ANOTHER GUY, saying stuff. For us heretics :-), it's NO BIG THING to admit that we were occasionally stupid and naive to accept the things Maharishi said and the restrictions he put upon how we lived our lives and the things we were allowed to think. All that means is that we were...duh...young and stupid and naive. Our commitment these days is NOT to find ways to continue to believe in these things as if they were some Cosmic Truth that must be believed in, but to find other things to believe in, things that make more sense now. Pursuing the will to believe strikes me as the pastime of those who *lack* faith, not those who have it. Those whose allegiance to the wish to find out have IMO a deeper, more balanced kind of faith...that there is NO danger in thinking things through for oneself, and that the things they find out by doing so will be just as valid and useful as the things they settled for having found out 30 to 40 years ago were. And possibly more so. Think how sad it would be to believe the opposite, that what one was told 30 to 40 years ago was all there WAS to find out. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: Actually, Nablus was referring to the rather esoteric discussion that Judy and I were having about a very subtle poitn about effortlessness during TM. Lawson, not to argue but to clarify, I haven't felt the need to weigh in on this one because the whole discussion strikes me as not only not esoteric, nor high-level, but like grownups discussing the best way to stack alphabet blocks -- the way they learned how to do it from their teacher while still back in kinder- garten -- while considering the discussion
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: Think how sad it would be to believe the opposite, that what one was told 30 to 40 years ago was all there WAS to find out. Your problem is that you didn't have the patience or the personal qualities required to stick around long enough to find out much of anything. You just jumped ship and went for the spiritual smorgasbord. Personally I have much less respect for that then someone who sticks to a path and explore the depths of consciousness following that path, whether it's TM, Kriya or any other path. The way you have jumped from path to path leads, IMO, to confusion and frustration. Your aggressiveness here on this board validates my claim.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: I have some friends who were there in India once when Maharishi brought Tat Walla Baba over for a talk, they tell the story that a course participant then asked the question of Tat Walla Baba, if he slept? Maharisihi translated the question and there were peels of laughter from both Maharishi and Tat Walla Baba and apparently Tat Walla Baba had said in reply, What would the world do if I slept? I met Tat Walla Baba in his cave in 1973, a great Yogi and Saint perhaps even on the level of Maharishi whom he spoke very highly of.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote: ..like becoming beacons. The dome in effect is a lot like that as a place. There are some lit people there spiritually. And like this, radiating help... Beautiful ! It's so nice to know that you are now back in the Dome Buck; well done !
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 24, 2012, at 5:26 AM, turquoiseb wrote: In this latest round of the re-enactment, it seems to me that Nabby, Lawson, and Judy are taking the will to believe position. Their comments seem (to me) driven by the desire to believe that Maharishi knew what he was doing in setting things up the way that he did, and that his description of How Meditation Works was RIGHT. There is also an undercurrent or subtext that (to me) conveys WHY they believe that he knew what he was doing: 1) because it *was* RIGHT -- he did what he did with the full support of the Laws Of Nature and from the platform of supposed enlightenment, so *of course* it was RIGHT, and 2) it was RIGHT because *I* bought into it. And as I just laid out, right in from the these TB's, way back in 1983, independent scientists showed that none of the major claims about the benefits of TM were true. Where is that outrage that this study was hidden from them or that the claims they were indoctrinated in were false, phony and/or exaggerated greatly? Nada. Bupkus. Pure Consciousness? - never even remotely shown exist - so much so that leading neuroscientists today state that any such claims were/ are metaphysical assertions rather than first-person descriptions. This all reminds me of the weird psychology of 'end of the world movements', where an organization claims the world is going to end on such-and-such a day - and then just go about their business the day after nothing happened as if it was no big deal. Any cognitive dissonance is ignored. It's really ignorance that's being cultivated. Self-mastery? fuggedaboutit. M. did a great bait-and-switch job with thought-free states and the Pure Consciousness delusion. People are still falling for it. I found the Foreman interview on BATGAP, as much of it that I could watch, strangely emblematic of this whole scene. Here's a neurotic guy who learns to micromanage his subjective mental states to the point where he takes his little mental world world as the full breadth of consciousness, and his experience of 3 or 4 nadis as somehow important when there's 72,000. It's so childish in the extreme, that one's almost forced to pity such vast naivete.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: Think how sad it would be to believe the opposite, that what one was told 30 to 40 years ago was all there WAS to find out. Your problem is that you didn't have the patience or the personal qualities required to stick around long enough to find out much of anything. Nabby, I write this not for you but for the lurkers you claim to be wanting to protect. I know that you won't be able to hear it, but perhaps they will. I do not question your place on this forum, which I consider as having both entertainment value and educa- tional value. The latter -- for the lurkers -- is in having the opportunity to assess the things Nabby says and realize, OMG...THIS is what I could turn INTO if I start TM and believe everything its proponents tell me to believe. That should be enough to raise doubts in the TM message in most people, without further commentary from me. :-) As for your sentence above, I think the problem may be that you are on the wrong Yahoo forum. You seem to believe that you're speaking to the ASPIRE_Resource_Site group, which provides services for people who are developmentally challenged. It only took me a few years to figure out that the picture of meditation being given to me by Maharishi and his parrots was neither the full story nor a particularly accurate one. If it's taken you longer, you may want to check out the other group. You just jumped ship and went for the spiritual smorgasbord. And where exactly did you hear that this is a Bad Thing? Oh, wait...I remember now...that was taught to you by Maharishi. Personally I have much less respect for that then someone who sticks to a path and explore the depths of consciousness following that path, whether it's TM, Kriya or any other path. And again, you were *taught* to believe this. The fact that you bought it is yet another indication that you might be happier in the other Yahoo group. The way you have jumped from path to path leads, IMO, to confusion and frustration. Again, do you even *realize* that you're parroting things taught to you by Maharishi, the guy who had a rather vested financial interest in you sticking around, and never checking out any other spiritual approach or path? Your aggressiveness here on this board validates my claim. Aggressiveness? I merely state my opinion. It seems to me that the aggression you are speaking of tends to appear in those who actually *require* 30 to 40 years to figure something out. Some of us are faster studies. :-) But by all means continue to demonstrate for the lurkers *what 40 years of TM turns one into*. If I am in any sense aggressive on this forum, it is for the purpose of *encouraging* you to do so, not to discourage you in any way. The more examples you present of How a TM True Believer thinks and acts, the fewer of them there are likely to be in the future.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: [...] I saw this whole discussion -- as well as recent discussions about the TM science -- as clear demonstrations of one of the wise sayings Rick placed on the FFL home page. That is, an exercise in the will to believe, as opposed to the wish to find out. But perhaps it goes both ways... I've stuck with TM for nearly 40 years. Is it possible that something has arisen in my TM practice that you missed because you haven't stuck with it for nearly 40 years? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: [...] I saw this whole discussion -- as well as recent discussions about the TM science -- as clear demonstrations of one of the wise sayings Rick placed on the FFL home page. That is, an exercise in the will to believe, as opposed to the wish to find out. But perhaps it goes both ways... I've stuck with TM for nearly 40 years. Is it possible that something has arisen in my TM practice that you missed because you haven't stuck with it for nearly 40 years? Possible, yes. Likely, no. In terms of actual meditation practice, you and Judy were discussing things that became irrelevant for me 35+ years ago. They are relevant only (IMO) to one solitary form of introductory meditation. To discuss them as if they had major importance, yes...I admit it, did strike me as kinda kindergarten-y. In terms of not sticking with it, I plead common sense. Unlike you, I actually paid attention when Maharishi originally promised the highest benefit of TM (at the time, CC or cosmic consciousness) within five years. When within a year of me hearing that he upped it to five to eight years, I noticed, and a red flag went up. Similar flags went up when he promised (in so many words) that within a year of learning the TM-sidhis we would be floating in mid air. That didn't happen, either. Big red flag, firmly planted in the ground, not floating in mid air. I caught a clue and left, *before* he started promising things like world peace (which still hasn't happened) and perfect health through Ayurveda (ditto). Plus, I watched to see whether any of my former friends who *had* hung in there started to display higher states of consciousness or perfect health or even a localized sense of peace (meaning that they'd stopped being assholes). Never saw that many results. I suppose I *could* have hung in there*, but as I said earlier, some of us are quicker studies than others. That does NOT mean that I feel that the paths I have chosen to take are better than the one proposed by Maharishi. But at least they're mine, and if they don't turn out the way I hoped, I have no one else to blame for that than me. The bottom line for me, Lawson, is that Maharishi tried to promote spiritual monogamy, and I'm more spiritually polyamorous by nature. He was (IMO) an extremely insecure and jealous teacher, and felt that any of his students who felt that they could get something from another teacher that they couldn't get from him were rejecting him. I found that as distasteful in a spiritual teacher as I do in people who declare that when it comes to love and sexuality, There can be only one. The whole CONCEPT is wrong. Loving your father and con- sidering what he taught you valuable does NOT mean that you didn't (or couldn't) love your mother and revere what she taught you. Loving one partner in a sexual relationship does NOT mean that you cannot love another. And feeling that you learned a few valuable things from one spiritual teacher does NOT mean that you cannot learn valuable things from another. Or that you shouldn't. What Maharishi taught was a platitude: You shouldn't try to cross a stream in two boats. That platitude was faulty on several levels. First, there has never been any evidence that his boat allows anyone TO cross the stream, or even that there IS another side to the stream. The TM movement has failed to produce even a single person that it can point to as enlightened. Second, it was a cover for the *real* platitude, which was (at least for TM teachers), You should not try to cross a stream in two boats, OR ELSE. There is simply *no question* that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi intentionally set out to stifle and prohibit his students from learning from anyone but himself. The current dome policies, still in effect long after his death, reflect this *real* teaching. If you can groove behind someone assuming that they have the RIGHT to demand that kind of spiritual monogamy from you, cool. Live with it. I couldn't.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: The TM movement has failed to produce even a single person that it can point to as enlightened. You mean other than the people identified as enlightened' in the research published a few years ago? L
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: The TM movement has failed to produce even a single person that it can point to as enlightened. You mean other than the people identified as enlightened' in the research published a few years ago? Please provide for us an official statement from the TM movement certifying these people as enlightened. I'll wait.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 5:26 AM, turquoiseb wrote: In this latest round of the re-enactment, it seems to me that Nabby, Lawson, and Judy are taking the will to believe position. Their comments seem (to me) driven by the desire to believe that Maharishi knew what he was doing in setting things up the way that he did, and that his description of How Meditation Works was RIGHT. There is also an undercurrent or subtext that (to me) conveys WHY they believe that he knew what he was doing: 1) because it *was* RIGHT -- he did what he did with the full support of the Laws Of Nature and from the platform of supposed enlightenment, so *of course* it was RIGHT, and 2) it was RIGHT because *I* bought into it. And as I just laid out, right in from the these TB's, way back in 1983, independent scientists showed that none of the major claims about the benefits of TM were true. Where is that outrage that this study was hidden from them or that the claims they were indoctrinated in were false, phony and/or exaggerated greatly? Nada. Bupkus. Pure Consciousness? - never even remotely shown exist - so much so that leading neuroscientists today state that any such claims were/ are metaphysical assertions rather than first-person descriptions. This all reminds me of the weird psychology of 'end of the world movements', where an organization claims the world is going to end on such-and-such a day - and then just go about their business the day after nothing happened as if it was no big deal. Any cognitive dissonance is ignored. It's really ignorance that's being cultivated. Self-mastery? fuggedaboutit. M. did a great bait-and-switch job with thought-free states and the Pure Consciousness delusion. People are still falling for it. I found the Foreman interview on BATGAP, as much of it that I could watch, strangely emblematic of this whole scene. Here's a neurotic guy who learns to micromanage his subjective mental states to the point where he takes his little mental world world as the full breadth of consciousness, and his experience of 3 or 4 nadis as somehow important when there's 72,000. It's so childish in the extreme, that one's almost forced to pity such vast naivete. From the POV of kuNDali-yoga (kundalini-yoga), it seems to me almost the only important naaDii-s are iDaa, pin.galaa (ping-galaa) and suSumnaa (sushumnaa). YMMV, of course...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 24, 2012, at 11:15 AM, cardemaister wrote: From the POV of kuNDali-yoga (kundalini-yoga), it seems to me almost the only important naaDii-s are iDaa, pin.galaa (ping- galaa) and suSumnaa (sushumnaa). YMMV, of course... He did not seem to be aware of or understand the relationship from what I could tell.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: To further clarify, I've been seeing a LOT of discussions at Fairfield Life lately devolve (or evolve, depending on one's point of view) into an re-enactment of the Bertrand Russell quote on the FFL home page: What is wanted is not the will to believe, but the wish to find out, which is the exact opposite. I don't think re-enactment is the word Barry wants here, since, according to him, what he's been seeing is NOT what Russell says is wanted. In this latest round of the re-enactment, it seems to me that Nabby, Lawson, and Judy are taking the will to believe position. Their comments seem (to me) driven by the desire to believe that Maharishi knew what he was doing in setting things up the way that he did, and that his description of How Meditation Works was RIGHT. Let's change that to How TM Works, just for starters. There is also an undercurrent or subtext that (to me) conveys WHY they believe that he knew what he was doing: 1) because it *was* RIGHT -- he did what he did with the full support of the Laws Of Nature and from the platform of supposed enlightenment, so *of course* it was RIGHT, and 2) it was RIGHT because *I* bought into it. Barry's subtext conveyor seriously needs a tuneup, at least in my case. It should be obvious that I believe neither piece of subtext. I think that Maharishi was -- pretty much from the beginning -- improvising his way through things, trying things out and if they seemed to work, sticking with them, No disagreement from moi on this point. Did Barry think there would be? and if they didn't, ignoring them and hoping that everyone else would ignore them, too, and pretend that the failures had never happened. Fortunately for him, the True Believer mindset is almost always willing to do this, out of fear of addressing the other possibility -- that they placed their faith in someone who might not have always deserved it. Vaj takes another POV on all of this. On the basis of some- thing that the others *do not have* -- experience with other forms of meditation, and other ways of viewing the dogma of and the mechanics of meditation. He does NOT feel constrained to use the proper language to describe what happens in TM. He should feel constrained to use *accurate* language to describe what happens in TM. He doesn't. There's no need for him or anybody else to use TM lingo per se as long as the language that *is* used is actually descriptive of what happens in TM. For example, Vaj wrote: Those without smriti in their practice languish in discursive thoughts - and fail at TM, while those with smriti succeed because they transcend more per unit of time. As I pointed out in response, in TM how much one transcends per unit of time is not the criterion of success. So this is not an accurate description. And THAT, in my opinion, is one of the things that the others are reacting to most strongly in him. Vaj (and myself, and Curtis) are off the reservation. We *no longer believe* that the way Maharishi taught us to consider and describe meditation is the best way, or the only way. We are, in fact, more comfortable with our own ways of seeing meditation and describing it. Which is as it should be, as long as you describe TM accurately. How you describe other meditation techniques isn't relevant. To the True Believer mindset, this is heresy. It displays a lack of respect and a possible danger to those hearing these heretical words. But stop for a minute and LOOK at that reaction, and what it's based on. Note the assumptions in the above and in what follows concerning Lawson's and my mindsets and reactions and how we feel. These assumptions are presented as though they were established fact. The people feeling this way were taught -- and not only chose to believe it in their youth but *still* believe it in their dotage dotage: a state or period of senile decay marked by decline of mental poise and alertness I don't think dotage is the word Barry wants here either. And in their youth may be a bit misleading where I'm concerned, given that I learned TM when I was 32. -- that there really IS only one RIGHT way to do things like teach meditation, or experience meditation, or describe what they experience. Barry would at least have gotten one out of three close to correct if he'd made that TM rather than meditation. For those of us who remember what we were taught concerning TM, there are as many ways to experience it as there are people practicing it, as long as they're following the instructions for practice. And as I already noted, the only RIGHT way to describe TM is *accurately* (PSST: that's a tautology). The specific language used doesn't matter as long as it's accurate. As to there being only one RIGHT way to teach TM, I'll just say *I* can't think of how TM could be better taught (with one reservation, which Barry missed,
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: snip You just jumped ship and went for the spiritual smorgasbord. And where exactly did you hear that this is a Bad Thing? Oh, wait...I remember now...that was taught to you by Maharishi. Actually that idea is hardly peculiar to Maharishi. I'd heard it long before I ever heard of TM. snip But by all means continue to demonstrate for the lurkers *what 40 years of TM turns one into*. If I am in any sense aggressive on this forum, it is for the purpose of *encouraging* you to do so, not to discourage you in any way. The more examples you present of How a TM True Believer thinks and acts, the fewer of them there are likely to be in the future. Lurkers should be aware that Barry's claim to be only encouraging TMers to say what they think is not true. He's hoping to intimidate them into silence by suggesting that what they say will discourage people from trying TM. It's a tactic he's been using without success for many years.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: The TM movement has failed to produce even a single person that it can point to as enlightened. You mean other than the people identified as enlightened' in the research published a few years ago? Please provide for us an official statement from the TM movement certifying these people as enlightened. I'll wait. There are no press releases, sorry. However, studies on individuals who reported continuous witnessing 24/7 for at least year before they were tested, have been published: http://www.totalbrain.ch/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/eeg-of-enlightenment.pdf http://www.totalbrain.ch/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/brain-integration-progress-report.pdf The Long-term TM group (N 1â4 17; age 1â4 46.5 ô° 7.0 years) had practiced TM for about 25 years (24.5 ô° 1.2 years) and reported the continuous experience of pure self-referral consciousness throughout daily life.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Yes very rue. I was there. I have some friends who were there in India once when Maharishi brought Tat Walla Baba over for a talk, they tell the story that a course participant then asked the question of Tat Walla Baba, if he slept? Maharisihi translated the question and there were peels of laughter from both Maharishi and Tat Walla Baba and apparently Tat Walla Baba had said in reply, What would the world do if I slept? --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Emily Reyn emilymae.reyn@ wrote: Huh?  I'm so blown away by this clip...can you believe we used to watch that?  The brain is insane.  Incredible.  Now, what was your point?  RIP Farrah.  From: obbajeeba no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 22, 2012 5:24 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@ wrote: On Apr 22, 2012, at 6:51 PM, sparaig wrote: And given that, where's the effort? Worrying about effort is futile. TM practice takes advantage of the mind's natural tendency. And for you remembering is not the mind�s natural tendency? The mind's natural tendency is to become aware of what is most pleasing... L. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wJTBs24szWo
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008 no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: Think how sad it would be to believe the opposite, that what one was told 30 to 40 years ago was all there WAS to find out. Your problem is that you didn't have the patience or the personal qualities required to stick around long enough to find out much of anything. Nabby, I write this not for you but for the lurkers you claim to be wanting to protect. I know that you won't be able to hear it, but perhaps they will. I do not question your place on this forum, which I consider as having both entertainment value and educa- tional value. The latter -- for the lurkers -- is in having the opportunity to assess the things Nabby says and realize, OMG...THIS is what I could turn INTO if I start TM and believe everything its proponents tell me to believe. That should be enough to raise doubts in the TM message in most people, without further commentary from me. :-) As for your sentence above, I think the problem may be that you are on the wrong Yahoo forum. You seem to believe that you're speaking to the ASPIRE_Resource_Site group, which provides services for people who are developmentally challenged. It only took me a few years to figure out that the picture of meditation being given to me by Maharishi and his parrots was neither the full story nor a particularly accurate one. If it's taken you longer, you may want to check out the other group. You just jumped ship and went for the spiritual smorgasbord. And where exactly did you hear that this is a Bad Thing? Oh, wait...I remember now...that was taught to you by Maharishi. Personally I have much less respect for that then someone who sticks to a path and explore the depths of consciousness following that path, whether it's TM, Kriya or any other path. And again, you were *taught* to believe this. The fact that you bought it is yet another indication that you might be happier in the other Yahoo group. The way you have jumped from path to path leads, IMO, to confusion and frustration. Again, do you even *realize* that you're parroting things taught to you by Maharishi, the guy who had a rather vested financial interest in you sticking around, and never checking out any other spiritual approach or path? Your aggressiveness here on this board validates my claim. Aggressiveness? I merely state my opinion. It seems to me that the aggression you are speaking of tends to appear in those who actually *require* 30 to 40 years to figure something out. Some of us are faster studies. :-) But by all means continue to demonstrate for the lurkers *what 40 years of TM turns one into*. If I am in any sense aggressive on this forum, it is for the purpose of *encouraging* you to do so, not to discourage you in any way. The more examples you present of How a TM True Believer thinks and acts, the fewer of them there are likely to be in the future. Mmm. Barry seems to have actually given the *appearance* of taking a stand here. I am not responding to Barry here though. I have stuck with TM for approximately four decades, plus some other meditation before that. I have felt the results to be exemplary. Yet I have almost no interest in what the TMO does. I have never bought the intellectual system of any tradition, though some are aids to clearer thinking a bit. To get through a spiritual life without being totally suckered, one needs some healthy scepticism. Direct experience is the key, yet self-deception is difficult to entirely avoid. The entire spiritual trip takes place in the grip of ignorance of one kind or another, until one comes out the other end, so misapprehension is rampant. I came across the following quote from Buddha, which seems to correspond more or less to the way I have approached my life. This is not to say anyone else should do the same, but it seems like prudent advice. It is from a document called the Kalamas Sutta, and for an ancient source, it seems to cover many logical and informal faults of thinking we humans have, and the heart of the message is: Do not go by revelation; Do not go by tradition; Do not go by hearsay; Do not go on the authority of sacred texts; Do not go on the grounds of pure logic; Do not go by a view that seems rational; Do not go by reflecting on mere appearances; Do not go along with a considered view because you agree with it; Do not go along on the grounds that the person is competent; Do not go along because the recluse is our teacher. Kalamas, when you yourselves know: These things are unwholesome, these things are blameworthy; these things are censured by the wise; and when undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill, abandon them... Kalamas, when you know for yourselves:
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: The TM movement has failed to produce even a single person that it can point to as enlightened. You mean other than the people identified as enlightened' in the research published a few years ago? Please provide for us an official statement from the TM movement certifying these people as enlightened. I'll wait. There are no press releases, sorry. However, studies on individuals who reported continuous witnessing 24/7 for at least year before they were tested, have been published: Does 24/7 witnessing constitute your definition of full enlightenment? I seem to remember Maharishi's definition of what he considered full enlightenment (Unity Consciousness) as, Being able to perform the sidhis, especially being able to levitate. Do the people who reported continuous 24/7 witnessing fall into this category? If so, I should get back in touch with several people I've met over the years, who have been experiencing 24/7 witnessing since their teens, even though none of them have ever practiced any form of meditation. I want to ask them to levitate for me. http://www.totalbrain.ch/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/eeg-of-enlightenment.pdf The Long-term TM group (N 1â4 17; age 1â4 46.5 ô° 7.0 years) had practiced TM for about 25 years (24.5 ô° 1.2 years) and reported the continuous experience of pure self- referral consciousness throughout daily life. So the continuous experience of pure self-referral consciousness throughout daily life -- all self- reported in addition to the self-referral, of course -- is the definition of enlightenment? Cool. So if I self-report on my self-referral to the right scientists, I'll be enlightened, too. It's all about the outfit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCeelWFO56Y :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
You keep changing the goal-posts, Unc. Very dishonest, to join Judy in pointing fingers. You said enlightened. I mentioned witnessing 24/7 which is how MMY defines the beginning of Cosmic Consciousness, as you well know. Then you started talking about full enlightenment, ability to perform all the sidhis, etc. Shame on you, Unc. L. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: The TM movement has failed to produce even a single person that it can point to as enlightened. You mean other than the people identified as enlightened' in the research published a few years ago? Please provide for us an official statement from the TM movement certifying these people as enlightened. I'll wait. There are no press releases, sorry. However, studies on individuals who reported continuous witnessing 24/7 for at least year before they were tested, have been published: Does 24/7 witnessing constitute your definition of full enlightenment? I seem to remember Maharishi's definition of what he considered full enlightenment (Unity Consciousness) as, Being able to perform the sidhis, especially being able to levitate. Do the people who reported continuous 24/7 witnessing fall into this category? If so, I should get back in touch with several people I've met over the years, who have been experiencing 24/7 witnessing since their teens, even though none of them have ever practiced any form of meditation. I want to ask them to levitate for me. http://www.totalbrain.ch/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/eeg-of-enlightenment.pdf The Long-term TM group (N 1â4 17; age 1â4 46.5 ô° 7.0 years) had practiced TM for about 25 years (24.5 ô° 1.2 years) and reported the continuous experience of pure self- referral consciousness throughout daily life. So the continuous experience of pure self-referral consciousness throughout daily life -- all self- reported in addition to the self-referral, of course -- is the definition of enlightenment? Cool. So if I self-report on my self-referral to the right scientists, I'll be enlightened, too. It's all about the outfit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCeelWFO56Y :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: You keep changing the goal-posts, Unc. Very dishonest, to join Judy in pointing fingers. You said enlightened. I mentioned witnessing 24/7 which is how MMY defines the beginning of Cosmic Consciousness, as you well know. Then you started talking about full enlightenment, ability to perform all the sidhis, etc. Shame on you, Unc. You were the one who settled for witnessing 24/7 as a significator of enlightenment (CC), or even the beginnings of it. I do not. I have higher standards. I was merely reminding you that Maharishi did, too. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: The TM movement has failed to produce even a single person that it can point to as enlightened. You mean other than the people identified as enlightened' in the research published a few years ago? Please provide for us an official statement from the TM movement certifying these people as enlightened. I'll wait. There are no press releases, sorry. However, studies on individuals who reported continuous witnessing 24/7 for at least year before they were tested, have been published: Does 24/7 witnessing constitute your definition of full enlightenment? I seem to remember Maharishi's definition of what he considered full enlightenment (Unity Consciousness) as, Being able to perform the sidhis, especially being able to levitate. Do the people who reported continuous 24/7 witnessing fall into this category? If so, I should get back in touch with several people I've met over the years, who have been experiencing 24/7 witnessing since their teens, even though none of them have ever practiced any form of meditation. I want to ask them to levitate for me. http://www.totalbrain.ch/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/eeg-of-enlightenment.pdf The Long-term TM group (N 1â4 17; age 1â4 46.5 ô° 7.0 years) had practiced TM for about 25 years (24.5 ô° 1.2 years) and reported the continuous experience of pure self- referral consciousness throughout daily life. So the continuous experience of pure self-referral consciousness throughout daily life -- all self- reported in addition to the self-referral, of course -- is the definition of enlightenment? Cool. So if I self-report on my self-referral to the right scientists, I'll be enlightened, too. It's all about the outfit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCeelWFO56Y :-)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: [...] I saw this whole discussion -- as well as recent discussions about the TM science -- as clear demonstrations of one of the wise sayings Rick placed on the FFL home page. That is, an exercise in the will to believe, as opposed to the wish to find out. But perhaps it goes both ways... I've stuck with TM for nearly 40 years. Is it possible that something has arisen in my TM practice that you missed because you haven't stuck with it for nearly 40 years? L. Lawson, What kind of program are you currently practicing? Both TM and Sidhi? A couple of years back you mentioned doing a program with a truncated length.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: [...] You were the one who settled for witnessing 24/7 as a significator of enlightenment (CC), or even the beginnings of it. I do not. I have higher standards. I was merely reminding you that Maharishi did, too. What higher standard did MMY have for the beginnings of CC? L.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: [...] I saw this whole discussion -- as well as recent discussions about the TM science -- as clear demonstrations of one of the wise sayings Rick placed on the FFL home page. That is, an exercise in the will to believe, as opposed to the wish to find out. But perhaps it goes both ways... I've stuck with TM for nearly 40 years. Is it possible that something has arisen in my TM practice that you missed because you haven't stuck with it for nearly 40 years? L. Lawson, What kind of program are you currently practicing? Both TM and Sidhi? A couple of years back you mentioned doing a program with a truncated length. Truncated? Not that I recall. I do the same minimalist TM/TM-Sidhis program that I started in 1985(1984?). Works out to about 45 minutes (counting rest period) twice-daily, assuming I keep to a schedule. Before that, I was doing the 2x20 minute TM practice starting in 1973. L.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 24, 2012, at 4:04 PM, turquoiseb wrote: Does 24/7 witnessing constitute your definition of full enlightenment? I seem to remember Maharishi's definition of what he considered full enlightenment (Unity Consciousness) as, Being able to perform the sidhis, especially being able to levitate. Do the people who reported continuous 24/7 witnessing fall into this category? If so, I should get back in touch with several people I've met over the years, who have been experiencing 24/7 witnessing since their teens, even though none of them have ever practiced any form of meditation. I want to ask them to levitate for me. No, they do not. What they do represent is the latest TMO farce. After pretending to have discovered “pure consciousness” in the 70’s and 80’s - all fraudulent research BTW, they never came close to the EEG of samadhi, it was just New Age relaxation stuff. Then they took their phony research, that independent neuroscientists said was “exaggeration”, and said “look, the circle we drew around the arrow - there it is during sleep and waking and dreaming, we found it! Eureka!” But we have to be realistic here, none of these people are actually witnessing, it’s just hypervigilance and sleep problems mentally micromanaged into awakening. Pretty sad really...but that’s the latest smoke and mirrors.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Fairness and honesty are not among the rules by which Barry plays. Read his latest contribution below, then check what I've highlighted in red from his previous posts in this exchange. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: You keep changing the goal-posts, Unc. Very dishonest, to join Judy in pointing fingers. You said enlightened. I mentioned witnessing 24/7 which is how MMY defines the beginning of Cosmic Consciousness, as you well know. Then you started talking about full enlightenment, ability to perform all the sidhis, etc. Shame on you, Unc. You were the one who settled for witnessing 24/7 as a significator of enlightenment (CC), or even the beginnings of it. I do not. I have higher standards. I was merely reminding you that Maharishi did, too. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: The TM movement has failed to produce even a single person that it can point to as enlightened. Obviously, if MMY defined enlightenment as beginning with CC, the criterion of which is 24/7 witnessing, then it most certainly could point to the individuals in the research Lawson cites as being enlightened--if it were the TMO's policy to do so, which it is not (as Barry knows). So his assertion is false. You mean other than the people identified as enlightened' in the research published a few years ago? Please provide for us an official statement from the TM movement certifying these people as enlightened. IOW, Barry would accept such a statement as the TMO's certification that the folks cited in the research were enlightened. I'll wait. There are no press releases, sorry. However, studies on individuals who reported continuous witnessing 24/7 for at least year before they were tested, have been published: Does 24/7 witnessing constitute your definition of full enlightenment? Barry knows CC is not considered full enlightenment, so the question is disingenuous. This is all a bait-and-switch--as Lawson says, moving the goal posts. It's not about honest discussion, it's about winning points, regardless of what kind of subterfuge Barry has to resort to. That's just Barry's Way. I seem to remember Maharishi's definition of what he considered full enlightenment (Unity Consciousness) as, Being able to perform the sidhis, especially being able to levitate. Do the people who reported continuous 24/7 witnessing fall into this category? If so, I should get back in touch with several people I've met over the years, who have been experiencing 24/7 witnessing since their teens, even though none of them have ever practiced any form of meditation. I want to ask them to levitate for me. http://www.totalbrain.ch/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/eeg-of-enl\ ightenment.pdf The Long-term TM group (N 1â4 17; age 1â4 46.5 ô° 7.0 years) had practiced TM for about 25 years (24.5 ô° 1.2 years) and reported the continuous experience of pure self- referral consciousness throughout daily life. So the continuous experience of pure self-referral consciousness throughout daily life -- all self- reported in addition to the self-referral, of course -- is the definition of enlightenment? Cool. So if I self-report on my self-referral to the right scientists, I'll be enlightened, too. It's all about the outfit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCeelWFO56Y :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
On Apr 24, 2012, at 4:37 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@... wrote: [...] You were the one who settled for witnessing 24/7 as a significator of enlightenment (CC), or even the beginnings of it. I do not. I have higher standards. I was merely reminding you that Maharishi did, too. What higher standard did MMY have for the beginnings of CC? He believed for one that one would remain conscious of one’s environment while still fast asleep. This isn’t really from M. though, it’s a traditional well known criteria for yogic sleep which dawns as awareness expands beyond the three spheres of waking, dreaming and sleeping. Because he believed this, they invented an experiment whereby special glasses would flash while the CC’er slept and the awake one would blink in response, all the while remaining asleep. All the subjects failed.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 4:37 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: [...] You were the one who settled for witnessing 24/7 as a significator of enlightenment (CC), or even the beginnings of it. I do not. I have higher standards. I was merely reminding you that Maharishi did, too. What higher standard did MMY have for the beginnings of CC? He believed for one that one would remain conscious of one's environment while still fast asleep. This isn't really from M. though, it's a traditional well known criteria for yogic sleep which dawns as awareness expands beyond the three spheres of waking, dreaming and sleeping. Because he believed this, they invented an experiment whereby special glasses would flash while the CC'er slept and the awake one would blink in response, all the while remaining asleep. All the subjects failed. Documentation, please. (Note: Vaj will not supply any.)
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
Radically coherent alpha EEG across multiple leads is hypervigilance? You keep using that word. I do not think it means what you think it means... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk L --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 4:04 PM, turquoiseb wrote: Does 24/7 witnessing constitute your definition of full enlightenment? I seem to remember Maharishi's definition of what he considered full enlightenment (Unity Consciousness) as, Being able to perform the sidhis, especially being able to levitate. Do the people who reported continuous 24/7 witnessing fall into this category? If so, I should get back in touch with several people I've met over the years, who have been experiencing 24/7 witnessing since their teens, even though none of them have ever practiced any form of meditation. I want to ask them to levitate for me. No, they do not. What they do represent is the latest TMO farce. After pretending to have discovered �pure consciousness� in the 70�s and 80�s - all fraudulent research BTW, they never came close to the EEG of samadhi, it was just New Age relaxation stuff. Then they took their phony research, that independent neuroscientists said was �exaggeration�, and said �look, the circle we drew around the arrow - there it is during sleep and waking and dreaming, we found it! Eureka!� But we have to be realistic here, none of these people are actually witnessing, it�s just hypervigilance and sleep problems mentally micromanaged into awakening. Pretty sad really...but that�s the latest smoke and mirrors.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Vaj vajradhatu@... wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 4:37 PM, sparaig wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: [...] You were the one who settled for witnessing 24/7 as a significator of enlightenment (CC), or even the beginnings of it. I do not. I have higher standards. I was merely reminding you that Maharishi did, too. What higher standard did MMY have for the beginnings of CC? He believed for one that one would remain conscious of one�s environment while still fast asleep. This isn�t really from M. though, it�s a traditional well known criteria for yogic sleep which dawns as awareness expands beyond the three spheres of waking, dreaming and sleeping. Because he believed this, they invented an experiment whereby special glasses would flash while the CC�er slept and the awake one would blink in response, all the while remaining asleep. All the subjects failed. Huh. Hadn't heard that, though, in fact, I sometimes find myself snoring while still maintaining some awareness of the outside world. It is a very funny thing to be listening to TV and snoring at the same time. L
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Xenophaneros Anartaxius anartaxius@... wrote: snips from Barry and Nabby Xeno: Mmm. Barry seems to have actually given the *appearance* of taking a stand here. I am not responding to Barry here though. I have stuck with TM for approximately four decades, plus some other meditation before that. I have felt the results to be exemplary. Yet I have almost no interest in what the TMO does. I have never bought the intellectual system of any tradition, though some are aids to clearer thinking a bit. To get through a spiritual life without being totally suckered, one needs some healthy scepticism. Direct experience is the key, yet self-deception is difficult to entirely avoid. The entire spiritual trip takes place in the grip of ignorance of one kind or another, until one comes out the other end, so misapprehension is rampant. I came across the following quote from Buddha, which seems to correspond more or less to the way I have approached my life. This is not to say anyone else should do the same, but it seems like prudent advice. It is from a document called the Kalamas Sutta, and for an ancient source, it seems to cover many logical and informal faults of thinking we humans have, and the heart of the message is: Do not go by revelation; Do not go by tradition; Do not go by hearsay; Do not go on the authority of sacred texts; Do not go on the grounds of pure logic; Do not go by a view that seems rational; Do not go by reflecting on mere appearances; Do not go along with a considered view because you agree with it; Do not go along on the grounds that the person is competent; Do not go along because the recluse is our teacher. Kalamas, when you yourselves know: These things are unwholesome, these things are blameworthy; these things are censured by the wise; and when undertaken and observed, these things lead to harm and ill, abandon them... Kalamas, when you know for yourselves: These are wholesome; these things are not blameworthy; these things are praised by the wise; undertaken and observed, these things lead to benefit and happiness, having undertaken them, abide in them. Religiously minded people of course will not want you to follow these maxims, they do not want you to have independent thought, that is, to be intellectually, emotionally, and spiritually independent - self-sufficient in other words. Don't go by what Barry says, don't go by what Judy says, don't go by what I say. Take a little initiative and attempt to think outside the box others would have you fit in, and in particular try to discover the box you yourself have created - this is the most difficult box to break out of. Human beings are a peculiar thing. For some reason, the state we label 'ignorance' does not feel right, we feel off balance, and so we seek relief, and seek it almost always in the wrong directions. Getting out of thought is one key - this is called transcending, though the term is kind of ludicrous since one goes nowhere during this process. But the structure of our thought is also a big part of the problem. Theoretically, awakening (unity, satori, rigpa, BC -- whatever it is called by whoever) takes care of this if the experience is clear enough, but before this the structure and seeming reality of what we think is a big problem. Having a lot of diverse input on the nature of spiritual practice and theory is helpful in breaking those boundaries. Belief is a big problem because belief is a substitute for what we do not know. Belief is simply an opinion disguised as truth. Truth in the spiritual sense is not intellectual, it is not a doctrine, it is not even describable except covertly, and you cannot tell it to anyone, you have to experience it for yourself. You can give people clues as to what direction to follow, and that is as far as it goes. As a human being, you will always have some preferences. For example I like Hershey's chocolate bars, the philosophy that came out of the Vienna Circle and its followers, I like TM, I find the spartan approach of Zen appealing. I like the sentence: Belief is simply an opinion disguised as truth. For me, belief is also a hope, wishful thinking, and I know that. It was simpler when I really believed in things like reincarnation, that Consciousness pervades everything, that enlightenment was a 24/7 state of intense bliss and joy. Now my beliefs are not certain at all, and the picture I have of enlightenment is of a rather plain and quiet state. Another belief, I guess, a revised version however. But a main thing is getting some independence from those who would have you do what you do their way exclusively. There are times when staying on the road is useful, and times when driving off the road is an advantage. If we are totally stupid, we can just sit in the same stew forever.
[FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, azgrey no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: [...] I saw this whole discussion -- as well as recent discussions about the TM science -- as clear demonstrations of one of the wise sayings Rick placed on the FFL home page. That is, an exercise in the will to believe, as opposed to the wish to find out. But perhaps it goes both ways... I've stuck with TM for nearly 40 years. Is it possible that something has arisen in my TM practice that you missed because you haven't stuck with it for nearly 40 years? L. Lawson, What kind of program are you currently practicing? Both TM and Sidhi? A couple of years back you mentioned doing a program with a truncated length. Truncated? Not that I recall. I do the same minimalist TM/TM-Sidhis program that I started in 1985(1984?). Works out to about 45 minutes (counting rest period) twice-daily, assuming I keep to a schedule. Before that, I was doing the 2x20 minute TM practice starting in 1973. L. I do that same minimalist program. I really like TM.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain
The Kingston Trio. Nice one. This is an excellent conversation, btw. From: turquoiseb no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 24, 2012 1:14 PM Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Meditation Can Speed Up the Brain --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@... wrote: You keep changing the goal-posts, Unc. Very dishonest, to join Judy in pointing fingers. You said enlightened. I mentioned witnessing 24/7 which is how MMY defines the beginning of Cosmic Consciousness, as you well know. Then you started talking about full enlightenment, ability to perform all the sidhis, etc. Shame on you, Unc. You were the one who settled for witnessing 24/7 as a significator of enlightenment (CC), or even the beginnings of it. I do not. I have higher standards. I was merely reminding you that Maharishi did, too. --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sparaig LEnglish5@ wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb no_reply@ wrote: The TM movement has failed to produce even a single person that it can point to as enlightened. You mean other than the people identified as enlightened' in the research published a few years ago? Please provide for us an official statement from the TM movement certifying these people as enlightened. I'll wait. There are no press releases, sorry. However, studies on individuals who reported continuous witnessing 24/7 for at least year before they were tested, have been published: Does 24/7 witnessing constitute your definition of full enlightenment? I seem to remember Maharishi's definition of what he considered full enlightenment (Unity Consciousness) as, Being able to perform the sidhis, especially being able to levitate. Do the people who reported continuous 24/7 witnessing fall into this category? If so, I should get back in touch with several people I've met over the years, who have been experiencing 24/7 witnessing since their teens, even though none of them have ever practiced any form of meditation. I want to ask them to levitate for me. http://www.totalbrain.ch/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2007/05/eeg-of-enlightenment.pdf The Long-term TM group (N 1⁄4 17; age 1⁄4 46.5 ﰀ 7.0 years) had practiced TM for about 25 years (24.5 ﰀ 1.2 years) and reported the continuous experience of pure self- referral consciousness throughout daily life. So the continuous experience of pure self-referral consciousness throughout daily life -- all self- reported in addition to the self-referral, of course -- is the definition of enlightenment? Cool. So if I self-report on my self-referral to the right scientists, I'll be enlightened, too. It's all about the outfit. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCeelWFO56Y :-)
