[FairfieldLife] Re: So tell me why we should support the DNC?

[authfri...@yahoo.com [FairfieldLife]]

Just for the record (from the linked article): 

 Other progressive policies were adopted piecemeal, such as the $15 minimum 
wage, which the committee accepted but without the amendment put forth by 
Ellison that would have indexed the wage to inflation.
  
 The panel did vote unanimously to back a proposal to abolish the death penalty 
and adopted language calling for breaking up too-big-to-fail banks and enacting 
a modern-day Glass-Steagall Act—measures that Sanders said he was "pleased" 
about.
 

 Oh, also, Hillary is *against* TPP, in agreement with Sanders.
 

 

 

 

 ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com,  wrote :

 Despite its claims to want to unify voters ahead of November's election, 
 the Democratic party appears to be pushing for an agenda that critics 
 say ignores basic progressive policies, "staying true" to their 
 Corporate donors above all else.
 
http://commondreams.org/news/2016/06/25/betraying-progressives-dnc-platform-backs-fracking-tpp-and-israel-occupation
 
http://commondreams.org/news/2016/06/25/betraying-progressives-dnc-platform-backs-fracking-tpp-and-israel-occupation

[FairfieldLife] Re: Show Tell Wednesday on FFL: For Ann

[Buck]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, laughinggull108 no_reply@... wrote:

 Is it Wednesday already??? Kinda crept up on me. Anyway, I don't know if I 
 first saw this on FFL or whether it was somewhere else. I'm posting it again 
 in the hopes that Ann hasn't seen it and will enjoy her first view:
 
 http://youtu.be/Zwu_d0xRhdI 


Thanks, that is about as close as I can get to the War Horse movie.  I spent 10 
years in Civil War re-enacting in Civil War cavalry.  I had war horses for that 
and I don't think I could hold up to the realism of a movie knowing things that 
way.  It's an extremely remarkable thing in life to have a war horse. I have 
had two and ridden other horses there that were not.  Certainly there are 
things about that theatrical puppet that are real that 'they got' and it is 
certainly a remarkable prop that conveys a lot.
-Buck in the Dome   

[FairfieldLife] Re: Show Tell Wednesday on FFL: For Ann

[Buck]

 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, laughinggull108 no_reply@ wrote:
 
  Is it Wednesday already??? Kinda crept up on me. Anyway, 

Friends, on this FFL 'show-and-tell' Wednesday where we are not supposed to go 
on reactionary negative jags on other posters for a whole day I won't tell you 
just what I feel about people who don't meditate or people who are mediators in 
Fairfield who don't take the opportunity to meditate with the large group, or 
meditators who have been given everything and should've known better who 
actually have up and moved away.  

No, yes I want to take this opportunity and encourage people to come once again 
up to the Domes as they can and meditate.  There are large open un-reserved 
visitor sections complete with backjack seats for itinerant residents who 
don't need a designated long-term place.  You can come for a short meditation 
or do the long one by choice according to your life accommodation.  There are 
also nice chairs that can be sat in for meditation, you know, the nice chairs 
the Rajas sit in for community meetings.  The Domes are quite geriatric 
friendly too.  It's all quiet and quite clean and comfortable.  If you haven't 
been there in a while arrive early and get going early.  The Field Effect in 
meditation is quite awesome.  This is one of the largest utopian things going 
now and if you're in Fairfield try not to miss it, if they'll let you.

Come to Mediation,
-Buck in the Dome

[FairfieldLife] Re: Show Tell Wednesday on FFL: For Ann

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, laughinggull108 no_reply@ wrote:
  
   Is it Wednesday already??? Kinda crept up on me. Anyway, 
 
 Friends, on this FFL 'show-and-tell' Wednesday where we are
 not supposed to go on reactionary negative jags on other
 posters for a whole day

Sorry, no, there's no supposed to involved.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Show Tell Wednesday on FFL: For Ann

[awoelflebater]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, laughinggull108 no_reply@... wrote:

 Is it Wednesday already??? Kinda crept up on me. Anyway, I don't know if I 
 first saw this on FFL or whether it was somewhere else. I'm posting it again 
 in the hopes that Ann hasn't seen it and will enjoy her first view:
 
 http://youtu.be/Zwu_d0xRhdI

Dear Laughinggull,
That was perfectly extraordinary. I haven't seen it before and I can tell you 
those three men in there have it down perfectly how a horse moves and reacts. 
And the mechanism, the horse, is fantastic in its construction and function. I 
LOVED IT!

[FairfieldLife] Re: Show Tell Wednesday on FFL: For Ann

[awoelflebater]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 
 
 
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, laughinggull108 no_reply@ wrote:
  
   Is it Wednesday already??? Kinda crept up on me. Anyway, 
 
 Friends, on this FFL 'show-and-tell' Wednesday where we are not supposed to 
 go on reactionary negative jags on other posters for a whole day I won't tell 
 you just what I feel about people who don't meditate or people who are 
 mediators in Fairfield who don't take the opportunity to meditate with the 
 large group, or meditators who have been given everything and should've known 
 better who actually have up and moved away.  
 
 No, yes I want to take this opportunity and encourage people to come once 
 again up to the Domes as they can and meditate.  There are large open 
 un-reserved visitor sections complete with backjack seats for itinerant 
 residents who don't need a designated long-term place.  You can come for a 
 short meditation or do the long one by choice according to your life 
 accommodation.  There are also nice chairs that can be sat in for meditation, 
 you know, the nice chairs the Rajas sit in for community meetings.  The Domes 
 are quite geriatric friendly too.  It's all quiet and quite clean and 
 comfortable.  If you haven't been there in a while arrive early and get going 
 early.  The Field Effect in meditation is quite awesome.  This is one of the 
 largest utopian things going now and if you're in Fairfield try not to miss 
 it, if they'll let you.

Will they let me in do you think Buck? How long does the ban from campus and 
the Dome stay in effect after having colluded with RWC? Let me know.
 
 Come to Mediation,
 -Buck in the Dome

[FairfieldLife] Re: Show Tell Wednesday on FFL: For Ann

[Buck]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater no_reply@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote:
 
  
  
  
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, laughinggull108 no_reply@ wrote:
   
Is it Wednesday already??? Kinda crept up on me. Anyway, 
  
  Friends, on this FFL 'show-and-tell' Wednesday where we are not supposed to 
  go on reactionary negative jags on other posters for a whole day I won't 
  tell you just what I feel about people who don't meditate or people who are 
  mediators in Fairfield who don't take the opportunity to meditate with the 
  large group, or meditators who have been given everything and should've 
  known better who actually have up and moved away.  
  
  No, yes I want to take this opportunity and encourage people to come once 
  again up to the Domes as they can and meditate.  There are large open 
  un-reserved visitor sections complete with backjack seats for itinerant 
  residents who don't need a designated long-term place.  You can come for a 
  short meditation or do the long one by choice according to your life 
  accommodation.  There are also nice chairs that can be sat in for 
  meditation, you know, the nice chairs the Rajas sit in for community 
  meetings.  The Domes are quite geriatric friendly too.  It's all quiet and 
  quite clean and comfortable.  If you haven't been there in a while arrive 
  early and get going early.  The Field Effect in meditation is quite 
  awesome.  This is one of the largest utopian things going now and if you're 
  in Fairfield try not to miss it, if they'll let you.
 
 Will they let me in do you think Buck? How long does the ban from campus and 
 the Dome stay in effect after having colluded with RWC? Let me know.
 

You know, actually LB Shriver was having a meeting today in process about 
applying for a dome badge.  He was barred with threat of arrest from campus 
like you guys a long time ago.  He was deep in it with the President's Office 
back then while he was student body president at MIU.  We'll see what they can 
reconcile now.  

Well of course a bane of this movement is that so little has been open to come 
along on to just meditators (without a Dome badge) for a long time (decades).  
Did you learn the siddhis as an advanced practice back when?  You're an old 
siddha or just a meditator?  They tore down the old chapel on campus which used 
to be where the group meditation was that included meditators.  They never 
replaced it with a comparable facility.
 
  Come to Mediation,
  -Buck in the Dome
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Show Tell Wednesday on FFL: For Ann

[awoelflebater]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, awoelflebater no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Buck dhamiltony2k5@ wrote:
  
   
   
   

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, laughinggull108 no_reply@ wrote:

 Is it Wednesday already??? Kinda crept up on me. Anyway, 
   
   Friends, on this FFL 'show-and-tell' Wednesday where we are not supposed 
   to go on reactionary negative jags on other posters for a whole day I 
   won't tell you just what I feel about people who don't meditate or people 
   who are mediators in Fairfield who don't take the opportunity to meditate 
   with the large group, or meditators who have been given everything and 
   should've known better who actually have up and moved away.  
   
   No, yes I want to take this opportunity and encourage people to come once 
   again up to the Domes as they can and meditate.  There are large open 
   un-reserved visitor sections complete with backjack seats for itinerant 
   residents who don't need a designated long-term place.  You can come for 
   a short meditation or do the long one by choice according to your life 
   accommodation.  There are also nice chairs that can be sat in for 
   meditation, you know, the nice chairs the Rajas sit in for community 
   meetings.  The Domes are quite geriatric friendly too.  It's all quiet 
   and quite clean and comfortable.  If you haven't been there in a while 
   arrive early and get going early.  The Field Effect in meditation is 
   quite awesome.  This is one of the largest utopian things going now and 
   if you're in Fairfield try not to miss it, if they'll let you.
  
  Will they let me in do you think Buck? How long does the ban from campus 
  and the Dome stay in effect after having colluded with RWC? Let me know.
  
 
 You know, actually LB Shriver was having a meeting today in process about 
 applying for a dome badge.  He was barred with threat of arrest from campus 
 like you guys a long time ago.  He was deep in it with the President's Office 
 back then while he was student body president at MIU.  We'll see what they 
 can reconcile now.  
 
 Well of course a bane of this movement is that so little has been open to 
 come along on to just meditators (without a Dome badge) for a long time 
 (decades).  Did you learn the siddhis as an advanced practice back when? 

As a student at MIU from 1975 until graduation in 1980 I took a summer Siddhis 
course in about 1978.

 You're an old siddha or just a meditator?  They tore down the old chapel on 
campus which used to be where the group meditation was that included 
meditators.  They never replaced it with a comparable facility.

Oh, that chapel was beautiful. I can't believe it was torn down. My sister was 
married in that chapel.
  
   Come to Mediation,
   -Buck in the Dome
  
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Tell

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote:

 Right wingers are falling all over themselves saying, It's not my fault, the 
 crazy guy is responsible for shooting people. Even if NOT directly accused, 
 they're busily scrubbing websites, saying Loughner was a lefty, gun-sight 
 cross-hairs were surveyor's cross-hairs, and Sheriff Dupnik who never says 
 right-wing vitriol or conservative hate speech — or even mentioned Faux 
 News or El Rushbo gets accused of stirring more vitriol when he simply called 
 for more civility. The right wing certainly acts like they own it. What say 
 you?
 
 http://tinyurl.com/479c3l8
 http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/10/early-morning-swim-fox-news-megyn-kelly-browbeats-arizona-sheriff-for-speaking-out-against-vitriolic-rhetoric/

See the Buddha in all beings? 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Tell

[Tom Pall]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2011 at 11:50 AM, tartbrain no_re...@yahoogroups.comwrote:

 See the Buddha in all beings?


 I have two nominations for post of the week.  This one and Vaj's saying he
was sent by the Holy Tradition.  Good one, Vaj!

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Tell

[PaliGap]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote:

 Right wingers are falling all over themselves saying, It's not my fault, the 
 crazy guy is responsible for shooting people. Even if NOT directly accused, 
 they're busily scrubbing websites, saying Loughner was a lefty, gun-sight 
 cross-hairs were surveyor's cross-hairs, and Sheriff Dupnik who never says 
 right-wing vitriol or conservative hate speech — or even mentioned Faux 
 News or El Rushbo gets accused of stirring more vitriol when he simply called 
 for more civility. The right wing certainly acts like they own it. What say 
 you?
 
 http://tinyurl.com/479c3l8
 http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/10/early-morning-swim-fox-news-megyn-kelly-browbeats-arizona-sheriff-for-speaking-out-against-vitriolic-rhetoric/


Just a drive by post...

Even progressives succumb to casual hate-speech.

I know this might seem to be from far-away Brit land,
but George Monbiot is a VERY important player in the
climate debate globally. He (and the Guardian) are on
the side of what many here would take a priori to be
the goodies.

So what do we say we about this kind of hate-speech?

Every time someone dies as a result of floods in
Bangladesh, an airline executive should be dragged
out of his office and drowned.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/dec/05/comment.politics

Just recently the coldest December in the UK for around
100 years caused widespread travel chaos, especially for
those trying to fly. Imagine, in the light of Monbiot's
comment, if some deranged loonie had had a pop at an
airline boss! Say Richard Branson...

In my view intemperance is all bad - but it's not 
always owned by the Right is it? Or in the US of A
is it really divided up cleanly and simply between
goodiea and baddies on right/left (progressive) lines?

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Tell

[PaliGap]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydog raunchy...@... wrote:

 Right wingers are falling all over themselves saying, It's not my fault, the 
 crazy guy is responsible for shooting people. Even if NOT directly accused, 
 they're busily scrubbing websites, saying Loughner was a lefty, gun-sight 
 cross-hairs were surveyor's cross-hairs, and Sheriff Dupnik who never says 
 right-wing vitriol or conservative hate speech — or even mentioned Faux 
 News or El Rushbo gets accused of stirring more vitriol when he simply called 
 for more civility. The right wing certainly acts like they own it. What say 
 you?
 
 http://tinyurl.com/479c3l8
 http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/10/early-morning-swim-fox-news-megyn-kelly-browbeats-arizona-sheriff-for-speaking-out-against-vitriolic-rhetoric/


Just a drive by post...

Even progressives succumb to casual hate-speech.

I know this might seem to be from far-away Brit land,
but George Monbiot is a VERY important player in the
climate debate globally. He (and the Guardian) are on
the side of what many here would take a priori to be
the goodies.

So what do we say we about this kind of hate-speech?

Every time someone dies as a result of floods in
Bangladesh, an airline executive should be dragged
out of his office and drowned.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/dec/05/comment.politics

Just recently the coldest December in the UK for around
100 years caused widespread travel chaos, especially for
those trying to fly. Imagine, in the light of Monbiot's
comment, if some deranged loonie had had a pop at an
airline boss! Say Richard Branson...

In my view intemperance is all bad - but it's not 
always owned by the Right is it? Or in the US of A
is it really divided up cleanly and simply between
goodiea and baddies on right/left (progressive) lines?

[FairfieldLife] Re: The Tell

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, PaliGap compost...@... wrote:
snip
 In my view intemperance is all bad - but it's not 
 always owned by the Right is it? Or in the US of A
 is it really divided up cleanly and simply between
 goodiea and baddies on right/left (progressive) lines?

Intemperance--in the form of eliminationist rhetoric--
isn't owned *exclusively* by the right, but the right
owns *much more of it* than the left. It's pervasive
on the right but merely occasional on the left (in
this country, at least; can't speak for the U.K.).

Those who are doing their damndest to set up some kind
of moral equivalence tend to cherry-pick intemperate
remarks from lefty blog and news-site commenters. But
you'll rarely find it coming from pundits and
broadcasters and politicians on the left, whereas you
hear it *constantly* from pundits and broadcasters and
politicians on the right (not to mention from right-
wing commenters on blogs and news sites).

(Interestingly, awhile back a poster here--I won't
mention the name--made a suggestion startlingly
similar to that of Monbiot: that those who oppose
action to prevent global warming should be tied up
and left on the beach to be drowned by rising ocean
levels. And this poster considers himself to be a
lefty.)

That's 50 for me; see you all next week.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: The Tell

[Bhairitu]

On 01/10/2011 10:43 AM, PaliGap wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, raunchydograunchy...@...  wrote:
 Right wingers are falling all over themselves saying, It's not my fault, 
 the crazy guy is responsible for shooting people. Even if NOT directly 
 accused, they're busily scrubbing websites, saying Loughner was a lefty, 
 gun-sight cross-hairs were surveyor's cross-hairs, and Sheriff Dupnik who 
 never says right-wing vitriol or conservative hate speech — or even 
 mentioned Faux News or El Rushbo gets accused of stirring more vitriol when 
 he simply called for more civility. The right wing certainly acts like they 
 own it. What say you?

 http://tinyurl.com/479c3l8
 http://firedoglake.com/2011/01/10/early-morning-swim-fox-news-megyn-kelly-browbeats-arizona-sheriff-for-speaking-out-against-vitriolic-rhetoric/

 Just a drive by post...

 Even progressives succumb to casual hate-speech.

 I know this might seem to be from far-away Brit land,
 but George Monbiot is a VERY important player in the
 climate debate globally. He (and the Guardian) are on
 the side of what many here would take a priori to be
 the goodies.

 So what do we say we about this kind of hate-speech?

 Every time someone dies as a result of floods in
 Bangladesh, an airline executive should be dragged
 out of his office and drowned.

 http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2006/dec/05/comment.politics

 Just recently the coldest December in the UK for around
 100 years caused widespread travel chaos, especially for
 those trying to fly. Imagine, in the light of Monbiot's
 comment, if some deranged loonie had had a pop at an
 airline boss! Say Richard Branson...

I'm surprised that executives haven't been the target of loonies. The 
loonies seem to often be misdirected to the government rather than the 
owners. I don't think if a bankster got knocked off you'd see a nation 
mourning though. Block parties maybe especially in areas of high 
foreclosures.







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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[ditzyklanmail]

What is a shiva's woo woo?





From: TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Thu, 13 May, 2010 7:48:24 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

  
--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 
  The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
  understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
  is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
  and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* 
  proposed
 
 Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
 
 In my reading of Jyotish material from various schools of 
 thought (that is to say, there is NO ONE official jytotish 
 doctrine) and not that I recall make a case for it being a 
 field effect 

Absolutely. I'm looking at the Jyotish Doctrine
right now, the 834th edition, and it says clearly,
The effect of the planetary bodies on humans is
caused by Woo Woo. In particular, Shiva's Woo Woo.

So there, Mr. Smarty Pants Hugo!

:-)

 I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general 
 type and timing of events in ones life. (this may be attributed 
 to individual's karma but karma is a loaded word and without 
 precise definition is guaranteed to lead discussions astray. Is 
 a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of a watch? 
 Why so then with jyotish?

Right on again. Mapping the general type and timing
of events in one's life, and using them to predict
the future, is JUST as valid IMO as saying, Hey, I
was flipping coins just now and got four 'heads' in
a row. Therefore the next time I flip the coin it'll
come up 'heads.'  :-)

The map is not the territory. In this case, it's 
probably not even a very good map, since it relies
on cartography skills from a time long before paper
had been invented to draw the charts on.

Juat an opinion, and a Sagittarian one at that...  :-)


 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

I don't think its his wee wee. 

Though there is a structural similarity in the forms of these words. 
And great power is attributed to his wee wee -- and much veneration given. 
Primal power creating the universe and all -- to which I can vagely relate.

 


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ditzyklanmail carc...@... wrote:

 What is a shiva's woo woo?
 
 
 
 
 
 From: TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Thu, 13 May, 2010 7:48:24 AM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!
 
   
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  
   The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
   understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
   is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
   and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* 
   proposed
  
  Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
  
  In my reading of Jyotish material from various schools of 
  thought (that is to say, there is NO ONE official jytotish 
  doctrine) and not that I recall make a case for it being a 
  field effect 
 
 Absolutely. I'm looking at the Jyotish Doctrine
 right now, the 834th edition, and it says clearly,
 The effect of the planetary bodies on humans is
 caused by Woo Woo. In particular, Shiva's Woo Woo.
 
 So there, Mr. Smarty Pants Hugo!
 
 :-)
 
  I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general 
  type and timing of events in ones life. (this may be attributed 
  to individual's karma but karma is a loaded word and without 
  precise definition is guaranteed to lead discussions astray. Is 
  a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of a watch? 
  Why so then with jyotish?
 
 Right on again. Mapping the general type and timing
 of events in one's life, and using them to predict
 the future, is JUST as valid IMO as saying, Hey, I
 was flipping coins just now and got four 'heads' in
 a row. Therefore the next time I flip the coin it'll
 come up 'heads.'  :-)
 
 The map is not the territory. In this case, it's 
 probably not even a very good map, since it relies
 on cartography skills from a time long before paper
 had been invented to draw the charts on.
 
 Juat an opinion, and a Sagittarian one at that...  :-)

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[ditzyklanmail]

Hahaha.

Would a woo woo be the female consort?

or should I say, Wood a woo woo be the female consort?






From: tartbrain no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 17 May, 2010 9:29:38 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

  

I don't think its his wee wee. 

Though there is a structural similarity in the forms of these words. 
And great power is attributed to his wee wee -- and much veneration given. 
Primal power creating the universe and all -- to which I can vagely relate.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ditzyklanmail carc...@... wrote:

 What is a shiva's woo woo?
 
 
 
 
 
 From: TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Thu, 13 May, 2010 7:48:24 AM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!
 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  
   The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
   understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
   is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
   and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* 
   proposed
  
  Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
  
  In my reading of Jyotish material from various schools of 
  thought (that is to say, there is NO ONE official jytotish 
  doctrine) and not that I recall make a case for it being a 
  field effect 
 
 Absolutely. I'm looking at the Jyotish Doctrine
 right now, the 834th edition, and it says clearly,
 The effect of the planetary bodies on humans is
 caused by Woo Woo. In particular, Shiva's Woo Woo.
 
 So there, Mr. Smarty Pants Hugo!
 
 :-)
 
  I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general 
  type and timing of events in ones life. (this may be attributed 
  to individual's karma but karma is a loaded word and without 
  precise definition is guaranteed to lead discussions astray. Is 
  a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of a watch? 
  Why so then with jyotish?
 
 Right on again. Mapping the general type and timing
 of events in one's life, and using them to predict
 the future, is JUST as valid IMO as saying, Hey, I
 was flipping coins just now and got four 'heads' in
 a row. Therefore the next time I flip the coin it'll
 come up 'heads.'  :-)
 
 The map is not the territory. In this case, it's 
 probably not even a very good map, since it relies
 on cartography skills from a time long before paper
 had been invented to draw the charts on.
 
 Juat an opinion, and a Sagittarian one at that...  :-)



 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ditzyklanmail carc...@... wrote:

 Hahaha.
 
 Would a woo woo be the female consort?
 
 or should I say, Wood a woo woo be the female consort?

Yes -- woo woo is more shiva's consort's shakti. Shiva makes shakti feel like a 
natural woman -- and she just radiates shakti in her natural state.

Thoug Shiva appears not to settle for good wood -- he is stone hard.

All of which makes me wonder if porn is actually high spiritual art.

I know some of you are quite the temple devotees.









 
 
 
 
 
 
 From: tartbrain no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Mon, 17 May, 2010 9:29:38 AM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!
 
   
 
 I don't think its his wee wee. 
 
 Though there is a structural similarity in the forms of these words. 
 And great power is attributed to his wee wee -- and much veneration given. 
 Primal power creating the universe and all -- to which I can vagely relate.
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ditzyklanmail carc108@ wrote:
 
  What is a shiva's woo woo?
  
  
  
  
  
  From: TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thu, 13 May, 2010 7:48:24 AM
  Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
   
The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* 
proposed
   
   Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
   
   In my reading of Jyotish material from various schools of 
   thought (that is to say, there is NO ONE official jytotish 
   doctrine) and not that I recall make a case for it being a 
   field effect 
  
  Absolutely. I'm looking at the Jyotish Doctrine
  right now, the 834th edition, and it says clearly,
  The effect of the planetary bodies on humans is
  caused by Woo Woo. In particular, Shiva's Woo Woo.
  
  So there, Mr. Smarty Pants Hugo!
  
  :-)
  
   I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general 
   type and timing of events in ones life. (this may be attributed 
   to individual's karma but karma is a loaded word and without 
   precise definition is guaranteed to lead discussions astray. Is 
   a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of a watch? 
   Why so then with jyotish?
  
  Right on again. Mapping the general type and timing
  of events in one's life, and using them to predict
  the future, is JUST as valid IMO as saying, Hey, I
  was flipping coins just now and got four 'heads' in
  a row. Therefore the next time I flip the coin it'll
  come up 'heads.'  :-)
  
  The map is not the territory. In this case, it's 
  probably not even a very good map, since it relies
  on cartography skills from a time long before paper
  had been invented to draw the charts on.
  
  Juat an opinion, and a Sagittarian one at that...  :-)
 

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[ditzyklanmail]

How poetic!

And some of you are happy to have a hole in the wood, any wood, in the woods, 
in the forest. 






From: tartbrain no_re...@yahoogroups.com
To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
Sent: Mon, 17 May, 2010 10:05:53 AM
Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

  


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ditzyklanmail carc...@... wrote:

 Hahaha.
 
 Would a woo woo be the female consort?
 
 or should I say, Wood a woo woo be the female consort?

Yes -- woo woo is more shiva's consort's shakti. Shiva makes shakti feel like a 
natural woman -- and she just radiates shakti in her natural state.

Thoug Shiva appears not to settle for good wood -- he is stone hard.

All of which makes me wonder if porn is actually high spiritual art.

I know some of you are quite the temple devotees.

 
 
 
 
 
 
 From: tartbrain no_re...@yahoogroups.com
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Sent: Mon, 17 May, 2010 9:29:38 AM
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!
 
 
 
 I don't think its his wee wee. 
 
 Though there is a structural similarity in the forms of these words. 
 And great power is attributed to his wee wee -- and much veneration given. 
 Primal power creating the universe and all -- to which I can vagely relate.
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, ditzyklanmail carc108@ wrote:
 
  What is a shiva's woo woo?
  
  
  
  
  
  From: TurquoiseB no_re...@yahoogroups.com
  To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
  Sent: Thu, 13 May, 2010 7:48:24 AM
  Subject: [FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
   
The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* 
proposed
   
   Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
   
   In my reading of Jyotish material from various schools of 
   thought (that is to say, there is NO ONE official jytotish 
   doctrine) and not that I recall make a case for it being a 
   field effect 
  
  Absolutely. I'm looking at the Jyotish Doctrine
  right now, the 834th edition, and it says clearly,
  The effect of the planetary bodies on humans is
  caused by Woo Woo. In particular, Shiva's Woo Woo.
  
  So there, Mr. Smarty Pants Hugo!
  
  :-)
  
   I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general 
   type and timing of events in ones life. (this may be attributed 
   to individual's karma but karma is a loaded word and without 
   precise definition is guaranteed to lead discussions astray. Is 
   a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of a watch? 
   Why so then with jyotish?
  
  Right on again. Mapping the general type and timing
  of events in one's life, and using them to predict
  the future, is JUST as valid IMO as saying, Hey, I
  was flipping coins just now and got four 'heads' in
  a row. Therefore the next time I flip the coin it'll
  come up 'heads.'  :-)
  
  The map is not the territory. In this case, it's 
  probably not even a very good map, since it relies
  on cartography skills from a time long before paper
  had been invented to draw the charts on.
  
  Juat an opinion, and a Sagittarian one at that...  :-)
 



 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
  
   
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
   
  
It's rubbish. 
   
   Your understanding and speculations as to what jyotish is, from afar, or 
   actual jytotish as practice by a knowledgable and long experience 
   jyotishee?
  
  No need, there isn't any evidence it does work, no physical
  model it could work on (quite the opposite as I point out)
  so I don't need to study astrology I just need to see if there
  is any sort of signal among the noise and I've never seen one.
  
  BTW I learned how to draw up horoscopes a long time ago.
  The maths really is rubbish. The earth really isn't the centre
  of the solar system, sorry if I broke that to you too harshly.
   
  
   An iron age hangover that people cling to for
comfort, so much easier to blame the stars,
   
   who is blaming stars? 
  
  Stars planets, whatever.
  
   
   
karma etc than take responsibility 
   
   or to face the awful truth that life is a bitch 
   
   And what studies are you citing to draw that conclusion? What??!!! Do you 
   mean you are drawing working hypotheses about your life that seem to work 
   on a practical basis, but you have absolutely no scientific / statistical 
   evidence that such models are valid!!? What a throw back to the middle 
   ages -- :)
   
   
and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.
   
   Again, citations please. What journal are you quoting? 
   

They don't even use the right number of planets in the charts
because the ancients didn't know that some were beyond the range
of the naked eye, 
   
   
   And their system didn't take into account the existence of the New York 
   Yankees! OMG! But why would that be relevant? If I develop some system 
   that works and it doesn't use some things that you personally think 
   should be in my model, why in heavens name does 
   that, in itself, invalidate the model that I have developed? 
  
  Interesting, some serious denial going on here.
 
 I am quire open to the possibility that jyotish is baseless. I don't see 
 denial -- but perhaps I am blind. But, in jesting about, I found your 
 arguments not critiquing actual jyotish, but some imaginary jyotish you 
 appear to have in your head. I find that amusing -- and figured you might see 
 some of the humor -- you have exhibited a refined and cultured wit in your 
 prior posts.

Sorry old chap, sometimes I can't tell if people are jesting about.
But I thought some of my replies were rather witty, I sense you are
sensitive about the subject and are trying to cover an over-reaction.
Am I right? Hmmm.

It always happens with stuff on here, all these deeply held beliefs
that we should be sensitive of. I do take the position that Marshy
claims all this stuff is a science and is therefore open to criticism.


My ideas of jyotish come from the TMO and my experiences with
western astrology, they are much of a muchness and all very insubstantial when 
it comes to pinning them down. Did you look 
at the link Shukra (?) posted and thought was rather good, I
had a read and checked the predictions for last year - Unrest 
in the middle east! Phew that's going out on a limb isn't it.

I could go on about how could a system work for countries as
well as people but it just underlines the difference between 
good science and bad. One answers many questions the other 
just raises more of them. Most pertinent of which is why
doesn't it work?


I will though finally say that I consider all types of jyotish
are imaginary at least until someone proves otherwise!

Perhaps we'd get a better conversation going if you'd explain
what you think jyotish is and how you think it works if it 
differs so much from the view that it's somehow connected to 
planets moving about?

I'm actually off on holiday for a week so don't expect an immediate
reply. I just hope the omens are good and the planets guarantee me
a safe journey ;-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
  
   
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
   


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
 
  Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of 
  telling of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that 
  the sun is up there, and the moon too and the other planets 
  hovering about, being on the inner and outer of life as the same, 
  or the placements, etc.
  Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with 
  Jyotishi's. Good or bad. 
   What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
  Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
  Please tell, oh great one!..?
 
 
 Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive sense 
 is needed to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and 
 relationships.

The fact that it's a technical subject doesn't mean there is 
anything to it on a day-to-day useful level. In fact jyotish 
is far more complex tahn it needs to be beacuse when the charts
were first formulted they didn't know the earth was round or 
that it and the plantets went round the sun, in eliptical orbits.
The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* proposed
   
   Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
  
  John Hagelins'. Hard to see how they could affect us if it
  wasn't by some sort of field. What else could the connection be?
 
 At the risk of mixing too many metaphors, my watch predicts when the sun will 
 rise. Where is the connection? Is my watch causing the sun to rise. Is the 
 sun causing my watch to tick? No, Yet you insist on only looking for a 
 causative model. 
 
 A point Judy I think was making -- many things can be correlated and useful  
 for predictive purposes but have no causal effect, A on B or B on A. The 
 watch is correlated with the rising of the sun -- but hardly causes it. In a 
 somewhat parallel way, the clock in the planets don't in ANY way create our 
 karma. We do that. (or did it). 
 
 The emergence of events in our lives, something we created, may be correlated 
 to various clocks. Its not really such a  hard concept.

It's an easy concept, the point is - there is no physical 
connection between us and planets so how could they be used 
as a guide? The only way would be some sort of field, and 
gravity is the only one that is infinite in extent and there
are many reasons why it couldn't be responsible. 

Jyotish - the science of light. Are they implying that it's
the light from planets and stars that affects us? That's the
claim from shukras site and it's the reason (they claim) that
the outer planets aren't relevant. All a bit *convenient* I say.

It also menas there could be a black hole in the solar system 
and it would affect us astrologically. No, it doesn't work.

 its amusing ow insistent you appear in critiquing a totally bogus concept, 
 and claiming you are critiquing (actual) jyotish -- or at least the one I am 
 familiar with. 
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  
   
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
   


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:

   
 It's rubbish. 

Your understanding and speculations as to what jyotish is, from afar, 
or actual jytotish as practice by a knowledgable and long experience 
jyotishee?
   
   No need, there isn't any evidence it does work, no physical
   model it could work on (quite the opposite as I point out)
   so I don't need to study astrology I just need to see if there
   is any sort of signal among the noise and I've never seen one.
   
   BTW I learned how to draw up horoscopes a long time ago.
   The maths really is rubbish. The earth really isn't the centre
   of the solar system, sorry if I broke that to you too harshly.

   
An iron age hangover that people cling to for
 comfort, so much easier to blame the stars,

who is blaming stars? 
   
   Stars planets, whatever.
   


 karma etc than take responsibility 

or to face the awful truth that life is a bitch 

And what studies are you citing to draw that conclusion? What??!!! Do 
you mean you are drawing working hypotheses about your life that seem 
to work on a practical basis, but you have absolutely no scientific / 
statistical evidence that such models are valid!!? What a throw back to 
the middle ages -- :)


 and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.

Again, citations please. What journal are you quoting? 

 
 They don't even use the right number of planets in the charts
 because the ancients didn't know that some were beyond the range
 of the naked eye, 


And their system didn't take into account the existence of the New 
York Yankees! OMG! But why would that be relevant? If I develop some 
system that works and it doesn't use some things that you 
personally think should be in my model, why in heavens name does 
that, in itself, invalidate the model that I have developed? 
   
   Interesting, some serious denial going on here.
  
  I am quire open to the possibility that jyotish is baseless. I don't see 
  denial -- but perhaps I am blind. But, in jesting about, I found your 
  arguments not critiquing actual jyotish, but some imaginary jyotish you 
  appear to have in your head. I find that amusing -- and figured you might 
  see some of the humor -- you have exhibited a refined and cultured wit in 
  your prior posts.
 
 Sorry old chap, sometimes I can't tell if people are jesting about.
 But I thought some of my replies were rather witty, I sense you are
 sensitive about the subject and are trying to cover an over-reaction.
 Am I right? Hmmm.

Yes, I was trying to cover up my laughter. Not at you per se -- I like your 
posts. But rather at a type of argument I see occasionally -- about jyotish -- 
but the them can be applied to other areas too. And I suppose I may be a bit 
giddy at my apparent inability to convey some fairly simple concepts.  

But I do get that my attitude and mirthiness on the issue could come across in 
print in a several ways. Some quite at odds with my inner flow on the topic.

 It always happens with stuff on here, all these deeply held beliefs

I wouldn't characterize my being intrigued with some uncanny results I have 
seen in jyotish, along with deep skepticism, as anything parallel to a belief.

 that we should be sensitive of. I do take the position that Marshy
 claims all this stuff is a science and is therefore open to criticism.

My view of jyotish has almost nothing to do with M. or TMO.
 
 
 My ideas of jyotish come from the TMO and my experiences with
 western astrology, they are much of a muchness and all very insubstantial 
 when it comes to pinning them down. 


That may be a key distinction. I agree with the massive mushiness of mnay 
jyotish folks. But I am not relying on them. I base my views on my independent 
study and analysis of my own chart and a few others (hardly a reasonable sample 
size -- but still some very interesting data points.) 

 Did you look 
 at the link Shukra (?) posted and thought was rather good, I
 had a read and checked the predictions for last year - Unrest 
 in the middle east! Phew that's going out on a limb isn't it.

See thats one of our disconnects. Predicting worl events is a small branch of 
jyotish -- and not at all the branches I am referring too. You and Turquoise 
seem more fixated on this small branch -- which is often ibhabitied by 
charlatan types. 
 
 I could go on about how could a system work for countries as
 well as people but it just underlines the difference between 
 good science and bad. 

Thats why I have little 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
snip
   John Hagelins'. Hard to see how they could affect us
   if it wasn't by some sort of field. What else could
   the connection be?
  
  At the risk of mixing too many metaphors, my watch
  predicts when the sun will rise. Where is the connection?
  Is my watch causing the sun to rise. Is the sun causing
  my watch to tick? No, Yet you insist on only looking for
  a causative model. 
  
  A point Judy I think was making -- many things can be
  correlated and useful  for predictive purposes but have
  no causal effect, A on B or B on A. The watch is
  correlated with the rising of the sun -- but hardly
  causes it. In a somewhat parallel way, the clock in
  the planets don't in ANY way create our karma. We do
  that. (or did it). 
  
  The emergence of events in our lives, something we
  created, may be correlated to various clocks. Its not
  really such a  hard concept.
 
 It's an easy concept, the point is - there is no physical 
 connection between us and planets so how could they be used 
 as a guide? The only way would be some sort of field, and 
 gravity is the only one that is infinite in extent and 
 there are many reasons why it couldn't be responsible.

You've got a real blind spot here, Hugo.

Take a different analogy: I can predict that when the sun
reaches a certain point in the sky, I'm going to begin to
feel hungry. There's no physical connection between the
sun and my stomach, so how can the sun be used as a guide
to my hunger pangs?

For that matter, I can predict where the sun will be
when I start feeling hunger pangs.

 Jyotish - the science of light. Are they implying that
 it's the light from planets and stars that affects us?
 That's the claim from shukras site and it's the reason
 (they claim) that the outer planets aren't relevant.

The light in question is what reaches our eyes. It's
what we're able to *see* that is said to be correlated
with events.

 All a bit *convenient* I say.

Not if that's how the system was conceptualized and
designed to start with!

I can't quickly find the claim you cite on shukra's site.
I do know that Western astrologers use cause-and-effect
language, but if you inquire, they (or at least some of
them) will say it's really just correlation, and they 
use cause-and-effect language because it's quick and
easy and more varied.

 It also menas there could be a black hole in the solar
 system and it would affect us astrologically. No, it
 doesn't work.

A black hole wouldn't be correlated with anything,
because we can't see it.

Again: the system of correlations is based on what the
sky *looks like* to the naked eye.

  its amusing ow insistent you appear in critiquing a
  totally bogus concept, and claiming you are critiquing
  (actual) jyotish -- or at least the one I am familiar
  with.

The question is whether the postulated correlations exist,
not whether the model of the solar system and stars is
scientifically accurate, or whether any actual physical
force is exerted. The latter have nothing to do with the
former. Hugo still hasn't gotten that.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  
   
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
   


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
  
   Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art 
   of telling of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject 
   that the sun is up there, and the moon too and the other planets 
   hovering about, being on the inner and outer of life as the same, 
   or the placements, etc.
   Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with 
   Jyotishi's. Good or bad. 
What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
   Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this 
   subject.
   Please tell, oh great one!..?
  
  
  Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive 
  sense is needed to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and 
  relationships.
 
 The fact that it's a technical subject doesn't mean there is 
 anything to it on a day-to-day useful level. In fact jyotish 
 is far more complex tahn it needs to be beacuse when the charts
 were first formulted they didn't know the earth was round or 
 that it and the plantets went round the sun, in eliptical orbits.
 The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
 understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
 is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
 and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* proposed

Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
   
   John Hagelins'. Hard to see how they could affect us if it
   wasn't by some sort of field. What else could the connection be?
  
  At the risk of mixing too many metaphors, my watch predicts when the sun 
  will rise. Where is the connection? Is my watch causing the sun to rise. Is 
  the sun causing my watch to tick? No, Yet you insist on only looking for a 
  causative model. 
  
  A point Judy I think was making -- many things can be correlated and useful 
   for predictive purposes but have no causal effect, A on B or B on A. The 
  watch is correlated with the rising of the sun -- but hardly causes it. In 
  a somewhat parallel way, the clock in the planets don't in ANY way create 
  our karma. We do that. (or did it). 
  
  The emergence of events in our lives, something we created, may be 
  correlated to various clocks. Its not really such a  hard concept.
 
 It's an easy concept, the point is - there is no physical 
 connection between us and planets so how could they be used 
 as a guide? 

Just as there is no physical connection between the clock and the rising sun. 
Why those charlatan swiss claock makers!!! How dare they claim their clocks can 
predict the rising sun. No physical connection therefore it must be rubbish. 
Anyone who wears a watch is a simpleton, neanderthal, throwback to the dark 
ages. We rational clear seeing ones in this modern scientific age clearly see 
the folly of watches and clocks.

The only way would be some sort of field, and 
 gravity 

I know! And since my watch creates such a small field effect, how could it 
possibly make the sun rise!!! Those swiss clockmaking charlatans are making 
such laughable outrageous claims. There is NO other possibility. My view is 
complete and comprehensive. Clocks clearly are mystical balderdash!

is the only one that is infinite in extent and there
 are many reasons why it couldn't be responsible. 

Until you get off this causal effect thing, you will never see any other 
possibility.
 
 Jyotish - the science of light. Are they implying that it's
 the light from planets and stars that affects us? 

No not at all. Its the light of jyotish within. A type of enlightenment that 
true jyotishees obtain. But that too sounds mystical. Its like the light inside 
Einstein's head that enabled him to see clearly.

That's the
 claim from shukras site and it's the reason (they claim) that
 the outer planets aren't relevant. All a bit *convenient* I say.

If I make a clock that works, and it doesn't contain some spring or pieces YOU 
think it MUST have, that doesn't invalidate the clock working. You appear to 
impose so many Musts and Shoulds on everything. Sometimes the world world in 
ways that are outside our small vision of how the world SHOULD and MUST work.
 
 It also menas there could be a black hole in the solar system 
 and it would affect us astrologically. No, it doesn't work.

And why shoulD it , neither the planets nor 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 snip
John Hagelins'. Hard to see how they could affect us
if it wasn't by some sort of field. What else could
the connection be?
   
   At the risk of mixing too many metaphors, my watch
   predicts when the sun will rise. Where is the connection?
   Is my watch causing the sun to rise. Is the sun causing
   my watch to tick? No, Yet you insist on only looking for
   a causative model. 
   
   A point Judy I think was making -- many things can be
   correlated and useful  for predictive purposes but have
   no causal effect, A on B or B on A. The watch is
   correlated with the rising of the sun -- but hardly
   causes it. In a somewhat parallel way, the clock in
   the planets don't in ANY way create our karma. We do
   that. (or did it). 
   
   The emergence of events in our lives, something we
   created, may be correlated to various clocks. Its not
   really such a  hard concept.
  
  It's an easy concept, the point is - there is no physical 
  connection between us and planets so how could they be used 
  as a guide? The only way would be some sort of field, and 
  gravity is the only one that is infinite in extent and 
  there are many reasons why it couldn't be responsible.
 
 You've got a real blind spot here, Hugo.
 
 Take a different analogy: I can predict that when the sun
 reaches a certain point in the sky, I'm going to begin to
 feel hungry. There's no physical connection between the
 sun and my stomach, so how can the sun be used as a guide
 to my hunger pangs?
 
 For that matter, I can predict where the sun will be
 when I start feeling hunger pangs.
 
  Jyotish - the science of light. Are they implying that
  it's the light from planets and stars that affects us?
  That's the claim from shukras site and it's the reason
  (they claim) that the outer planets aren't relevant.
 
 The light in question is what reaches our eyes. It's
 what we're able to *see* that is said to be correlated
 with events.
 
  All a bit *convenient* I say.
 
 Not if that's how the system was conceptualized and
 designed to start with!
 
 I can't quickly find the claim you cite on shukra's site.
 I do know that Western astrologers use cause-and-effect
 language, but if you inquire, they (or at least some of
 them) will say it's really just correlation, and they 
 use cause-and-effect language because it's quick and
 easy and more varied.
 
  It also menas there could be a black hole in the solar
  system and it would affect us astrologically. No, it
  doesn't work.
 
 A black hole wouldn't be correlated with anything,
 because we can't see it.
 
 Again: the system of correlations is based on what the
 sky *looks like* to the naked eye.
 
   its amusing ow insistent you appear in critiquing a
   totally bogus concept, and claiming you are critiquing
   (actual) jyotish -- or at least the one I am familiar
   with.
 
 The question is whether the postulated correlations exist,
 not whether the model of the solar system and stars is
 scientifically accurate, or whether any actual physical
 force is exerted. The latter have nothing to do with the
 former. Hugo still hasn't gotten that.

Yes. That is what is amusing here (to my warped tastes). Hugo is clearly a 
smart, learned fellow. To see him dance around this blind spot, so extensively, 
is a cautionary tale for all of us:  What blind spots am I dancing around in 
other areas of my life!? 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[John]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
 
  Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the 
  art of telling of this subject.  
 
 I consider it merely another way of telling.
 Telling stories.
 
 As such, Jyotishi should be evaluated just as
 any other bard or storyteller is evaluated --
 Are they entertaining?
 
 If you gain some entertainment from their stories,
 and are not caused financial hardship by them, I
 for one see no reason why not to consult Jyotishi.
 
  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
  and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being 
  on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, 
  etc.
  Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with 
  Jyotishi's. Good or bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
  Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this 
  subject.
  Please tell, oh great one!..?
 
 No great ones here, I'm afraid. Just ordinary 
 people, with ordinary people stories to tell.
 
 My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form
 of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark
 as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications
 themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, 
 catering to the perceived desires of the paying
 clients, and as a result of those desires, self-
 fulfilling.
 
 Most of the Jyotish pronouncements made here are
 of the rear view mirror variety IMO -- saying
 after the fact, Oh...so *that's* why that happened.
 Raju was up Uranus. 
 
 But, as I've suggested many times, I am open to
 being proven wrong. All that it would take to do
 that is for several of the Jyotishi here (and there
 are some) to make several near-future predictions
 -- non-vague, specific, naming names, clearly
 falsifiable predictions. Post them here, and then
 allow history to be the arbiter of the ability of
 Jyotish to predict the future.
 
 On another level entirely, my 'tude on this subject
 of seeing the future has never been good, because
 I've never understood WHY anyone would want to. I
 wouldn't want to spoil the surprise of it all. Why
 do they? Is it a control thang, wanting to believe
 that one is in more control of one's life than is
 really the case? Beats the shit outa me.
 
 You asked for honest opinions. These were mine. Ya 
 gets what ya asks for. But it's not my fault that 
 these are my opinions...after all, I'm a Sagittarius, 
 with moon in Fresno.  :-)


Barry, what is your birth date, time and place?  You've got us curious now.  Is 
it possible to get the true facts from you at least once?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[John]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc...@... wrote:

 Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of telling 
 of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
 and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being on the inner and 
 outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
 Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. Good or 
 bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
 Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
 Please tell, oh great one!..?


Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive sense is needed 
to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and relationships.

Here's a good introduction to the subject if you're up to it:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxAZRvw2HxYfeature=PlayListp=C871270CB37BE8A4playnext=1playnext_from=PLindex=20

JR

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
  
   Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the 
   art of telling of this subject.  
  
  I consider it merely another way of telling.
  Telling stories.
  
  As such, Jyotishi should be evaluated just as
  any other bard or storyteller is evaluated --
  Are they entertaining?
  
  If you gain some entertainment from their stories,
  and are not caused financial hardship by them, I
  for one see no reason why not to consult Jyotishi.
  
   No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
   and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being 
   on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, 
   etc.
   Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with 
   Jyotishi's. Good or bad. 
   What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
   Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this 
   subject.
   Please tell, oh great one!..?
  
  No great ones here, I'm afraid. Just ordinary 
  people, with ordinary people stories to tell.
  
  My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form
  of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark
  as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications
  themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, 
  catering to the perceived desires of the paying
  clients, and as a result of those desires, self-
  fulfilling.
  
  Most of the Jyotish pronouncements made here are
  of the rear view mirror variety IMO -- saying
  after the fact, Oh...so *that's* why that happened.
  Raju was up Uranus. 
  
  But, as I've suggested many times, I am open to
  being proven wrong. All that it would take to do
  that is for several of the Jyotishi here (and there
  are some) to make several near-future predictions
  -- non-vague, specific, naming names, clearly
  falsifiable predictions. Post them here, and then
  allow history to be the arbiter of the ability of
  Jyotish to predict the future.
  
  On another level entirely, my 'tude on this subject
  of seeing the future has never been good, because
  I've never understood WHY anyone would want to. I
  wouldn't want to spoil the surprise of it all. Why
  do they? Is it a control thang, wanting to believe
  that one is in more control of one's life than is
  really the case? Beats the shit outa me.
  
  You asked for honest opinions. These were mine. Ya 
  gets what ya asks for. But it's not my fault that 
  these are my opinions...after all, I'm a Sagittarius, 
  with moon in Fresno.  :-)
 
 
 Barry, what is your birth date, time and place?  You've 
 got us curious now.  Is it possible to get the true facts 
 from you at least once?

You've got *us* curious? Have you got a mouse 
in your pocket, or do you suffer from multiple
personality disorder?  :-)

No way, Jose. You're the one who keeps bailing
on my challenges, so you first.

YOU make one non-vague, specific, naming names, 
clearly falsifiable prediction. It has to be 
something that will either happen or not happen
in the next month, and be reported in the news,
so that we can verify it. The sun's going to
rise or Somebody famous is going to die is 
not a suitable candidate for the prediction.  :-)

After you've done that, and we've had time to
see whether your prediction happens or not, 
I'll send you my birth data. 

Deal?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc...@... wrote:

 Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of telling 
 of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
 and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being on the inner and 
 outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
 Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. Good or 
 bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
 Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
 Please tell, oh great one!..?


It's rubbish. An iron age hangover that people cling to for
comfort, so much easier to blame the stars, karma etc than take responsibility 
or to face the awful truth that life is a bitch 
and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.

They don't even use the right number of planets in the charts
because the ancients didn't know that some were beyond the range
of the naked eye, which must render them highly innacurate. 
Besides the only physical field that is infinite in extent is 
gravity and the planets are so far away that they have less 
effect on you than a truck driving by your house. Try factoring *that* into 
your horoscope!

Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the moment 
of birth? Would I predictably have been a different person if I 
was a month premature, could anyone have predicted it? No. The personality 
evolves over time with hormonal changes, interactions with others and our 
inbuilt genetic ability to cope with difficulty.

But bear in mind I do have Jupiter in my fifth house so I'm 
naturally a bit sceptical.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
 
  Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of telling 
  of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up 
  there, and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being on the 
  inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
  Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. Good 
  or bad. 
   What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
  Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
  Please tell, oh great one!..?
 
 
 Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive sense is 
 needed to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and relationships.

The fact that it's a technical subject doesn't mean there is 
anything to it on a day-to-day useful level. In fact jyotish 
is far more complex tahn it needs to be beacuse when the charts
were first formulted they didn't know the earth was round or 
that it and the plantets went round the sun, in eliptical orbits.
The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* proposed)the 
whole thing is wildly innacurate because of the 
extra distances planets travel away from us as they orbit the sun.

If you look at your jyotish chart, you will notice they don't
take that into account, and indeed couldn't because the logarithms
they use are designed to move everything into a relationship with
a stationary earth that they don't have!

And the predictably weird backwards and forward motions of planets
going retrograde is an illusion due to us appearing to overtake tham as we 
move round the sun, they are going in the same direction
at the same speed they usually do! The idea that it means there effects are 
reversed is revealed to be the nonsense that it is.

If there was any objective evidence that astrology worked none
of the above would matter but there isn't so why stick with it?


 Here's a good introduction to the subject if you're up to it:

Up to what? It's a good grounding in astronomy but doesn't
explain any of the ideas about why anyone would think the
planets affect our everyday lives.



 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uxAZRvw2HxYfeature=PlayListp=C871270CB37BE8A4playnext=1playnext_from=PLindex=20
 
 JR

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
  
   Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of 
   telling of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun 
   is up there, and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being 
   on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
   Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. 
   Good or bad. 
What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
   Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
   Please tell, oh great one!..?
  
  
  Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive sense is 
  needed to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and relationships.
 
 The fact that it's a technical subject doesn't mean there is 
 anything to it on a day-to-day useful level. In fact jyotish 
 is far more complex tahn it needs to be beacuse when the charts
 were first formulted they didn't know the earth was round or 
 that it and the plantets went round the sun, in eliptical orbits.
 The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
 understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
 is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
 and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* proposed

Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)

In my reading of Jyotish material from various schools of thought (that is to 
say, there is NO ONE official jytotish doctrine) and not that I recall make a 
case for it being a field effect 

designating or of an electronic component or device, esp. a transistor, 
controlled by an external electric field

That may be your hypothesis as to what the core of jyotish is and you are 
welcome to present your model. 

I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general type and timing of 
events in ones life. (this may be attributed to individual's karma but karma 
is a loaded word and without precise definition is guaranteed to lead 
discussions astray. Is a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of a 
watch? Why so then with jyotish?

As to whether jyotish has any power beyond random chance of identifying the 
type and timing of karma is certainly valid -- and there are no valid modern 
statistical studies on it so abundant skepticism is warranted. Personally, as a 
tool for general descriptions of type and timing of the unfoldment of events in 
my life -- it has more than not been uncanny -- though with a fair amount of 
noise surrounding the signal. Not a proof -- but I don't have one for any of 
number of other things that work in my life. 



)the whole thing is wildly innacurate because of the 
 extra distances planets travel away from us as they orbit the sun.

So your model and explanation of jyotish doesn't hold water. I might 
focus on your having the wrong model, than making wild claims about the 
inaacuracy of Jyotish bsimply ecause your personal model of jytish is flawed. 

 
 If you look at your jyotish chart, you will notice they don't
 take that into account, and indeed couldn't because the logarithms
 they use are designed to move everything into a relationship with
 a stationary earth that they don't have!
 
 And the predictably weird backwards and forward motions of planets
 going retrograde is an illusion due to us appearing to overtake tham as we 
 move round the sun, they are going in the same direction
 at the same speed they usually do! The idea that it means there effects are 
 reversed is revealed to be the nonsense that it is.

And why is it nonesense? Again because in your personal unvalidated model , it 
doesn't make sense? Hardly a strong case against real world jyotish, though 
clearly a strong case agaisnt figment of ones imagination jytoish. :)
 
 If there was any objective evidence that astrology worked none
 of the above would matter but there isn't so why stick with it?

Amongst other things, you appear to blur your straw dogs. Would a study of 
astrology (as in some perhaps on particular branch of western astrology) 
invalidate jyotish. And which school of jyotish. Does invalidating one 
invalidate all others?  
 
 
  Here's a good introduction to the subject if you're up to it:
 
 Up to what? It's a good grounding in astronomy but doesn't
 explain any of the ideas about why anyone would think the
 planets affect our everyday lives.
 

Again, who, besides what is happening inside your head, said that planets 
affect ones life? Yes, that does sound presposterous. But who said it? I can 
make parallel claims that the sun is making a clock tick. And then claim 
because that's preposterous, clockmaking is a foul preposterous scam. But then, 
if I did that, I wouldn't be making much sense, would I?
   
 
 
  

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
 
  Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of telling 
  of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up 
  there, and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being on the 
  inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
  Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. Good 
  or bad. 
   What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
  Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
  Please tell, oh great one!..?
 
 
 It's rubbish. 

Your understanding and speculations as to what jyotish is, from afar, or actual 
jytotish as practice by a knowledgable and long experience jyotishee?

An iron age hangover that people cling to for
 comfort, so much easier to blame the stars,

who is blaming stars? and on what basis? That would be a preposterous thing to 
do. Lock the loony up. Now back to a discussion about actual jyotish .. 


 karma etc than take responsibility 

or to face the awful truth that life is a bitch 

And what studies are you citing to draw that conclusion? What??!!! Do you mean 
you are drawing working hypotheses about your life that seem to work on a 
practical basis, but you have absolutely no scientific / statistical evidence 
that such models are valid!!? What a throw back to the middle ages -- :)


 and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.

Again, citations please. What journal are you  quoting? 

 
 They don't even use the right number of planets in the charts
 because the ancients didn't know that some were beyond the range
 of the naked eye, 


And their system didn't take into account the existence of the New York 
Yankees! OMG! But why would that be relevant? If I develop some system that 
works and it doesn't use some things that you personally think should be in 
my model, why in heavens name does that, in itself, invalidate the model that I 
have developed? 

If you want to create a model that includes outer planets, the galaxies, the 
New York Yankees and the top box office movie this week, or whatever you want 
to have in your model, go ahead. But why would that possibly have anything to 
do with another person's model an its validity?


 which must render them highly innacurate. 

I know! and the fact that they don't include the New York Yankees makes it even 
MORE inaccuruate. 

 Besides the only physical field that is infinite in extent is 
 gravity and the planets are so far away that they have less 
 effect on you than a truck driving by your house. 

OK. But what does that have to do with Jyotish? 

 Try factoring *that* into your horoscope!

I suppose I would if it had any more relevance that factoring today's top film, 
or who won the most seats in parliment. 

 
 Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the moment 
 of birth? 

I don't know. Who would say such a preposterous thing?  But odd interjections 
aside, now, back to the discussion at hand about jyotish .. 

?Would I predictably have been a different person if I 
 was a month premature, 

Why in the world would your past prarabdha karma change if your were born 
immature, I mean premature?  That's as crazy as saying my watch was set back an 
hour, therefore I really don't have to pay the bank my mortgage. Where is there 
any connection?
 

 could anyone have predicted it? No. The personality evolves over time with 
 hormonal changes, interactions with others and our inbuilt genetic ability to 
 cope with difficulty.
 
 But bear in mind I do have Jupiter in my fifth house so I'm 
 naturally a bit sceptical.

Are you sure its not Uranus? :)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 
  The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
  understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
  is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
  and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* 
  proposed
 
 Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
 
 In my reading of Jyotish material from various schools of 
 thought (that is to say, there is NO ONE official jytotish 
 doctrine) and not that I recall make a case for it being a 
 field effect 

Absolutely. I'm looking at the Jyotish Doctrine
right now, the 834th edition, and it says clearly,
The effect of the planetary bodies on humans is
caused by Woo Woo. In particular, Shiva's Woo Woo.

So there, Mr. Smarty Pants Hugo!

:-)

 I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general 
 type and timing of events in ones life. (this may be attributed 
 to individual's karma but karma is a loaded word and without 
 precise definition is guaranteed to lead discussions astray. Is 
 a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of a watch? 
 Why so then with jyotish?

Right on again. Mapping the general type and timing
of events in one's life, and using them to predict
the future, is JUST as valid IMO as saying, Hey, I
was flipping coins just now and got four 'heads' in
a row. Therefore the next time I flip the coin it'll
come up 'heads.'  :-)

The map is not the territory. In this case, it's 
probably not even a very good map, since it relies
on cartography skills from a time long before paper
had been invented to draw the charts on.

Juat an opinion, and a Sagittarian one at that...  :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
 
  Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the 
  art of telling of this subject.  
 
 I consider it merely another way of telling.
 Telling stories.
 
 As such, Jyotishi should be evaluated just as
 any other bard or storyteller is evaluated --
 Are they entertaining?
 
 If you gain some entertainment from their stories,
 and are not caused financial hardship by them, I
 for one see no reason why not to consult Jyotishi.
 
  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
  and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being 
  on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, 
  etc.
  Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with 
  Jyotishi's. Good or bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
  Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this 
  subject.
  Please tell, oh great one!..?
 
 No great ones here, I'm afraid. Just ordinary 
 people, with ordinary people stories to tell.
 
 My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form
 of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark
 as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications
 themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, 
 catering to the perceived desires of the paying
 clients, and as a result of those desires, self-
 fulfilling.

Thats a nice opinion. However, what back ground do you have in Jyotish? How 
many years of study and practice? Or are you just shooting the breeze about 
some casual observation you may have had years ago? Nothing wrong with shooting 
the breeze. 

 
 Most of the Jyotish pronouncements made here are
 of the rear view mirror 

I hope you are not creating super strawmen here and equating actual  jyotish 
with some loosey goosey meanderings of LV postings?


 variety IMO -- saying
 after the fact, Oh...so *that's* why that happened.
 Raju was up Uranus. 

Yes, there is a whole lot of crap spewed by dimestore practicioners and 
charlatans using jyotish as a facade for their fantasies. But people do that 
with physics -- and such practice hardly invalidates physics.  (And of course 
this is an analogy about facades --  jyotish clearly is not physics). 

 
  But, as I've suggested many times, I am open to
 being proven wrong. All that it would take to do
 that is for several of the Jyotishi here (and there
 are some) to make several near-future predictions
 -- non-vague, specific, naming names, clearly
 falsifiable predictions. Post them here, and then
 allow history to be the arbiter of the ability of
 Jyotish to predict the future.

So you are talking about a fairly obscure branch of jyotish used to make world 
predictions. OK. Thats a fun topic to investigate. But it has little to do 
with jyotish as a map of type and timing of events in ones individual life -- 
which is the vastly larger practice of jyotish. I hope by disproving the 
former, you hare not seriously claiming such disproves the latter. (not that 
there are not vast charlatan claims of the latter that cannot easily be 
disproved)
 
 On another level entirely, my 'tude on this subject


tuds are fine. But what do they have to do with reality?

 of seeing the future has never been good, because
 I've never understood WHY anyone would want to. I
 wouldn't want to spoil the surprise of it all. Why
 do they? Is it a control thang, wanting to believe
 that one is in more control of one's life than is
 really the case? Beats the shit outa me.
 
 You asked for honest opinions. These were mine. Ya 
 gets what ya asks for. But it's not my fault that 
 these are my opinions...after all, I'm a Sagittarius, 
 with moon in Fresno.  :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  
   The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
   understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
   is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
   and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* 
   proposed
  
  Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
  
  In my reading of Jyotish material from various schools of 
  thought (that is to say, there is NO ONE official jytotish 
  doctrine) and not that I recall make a case for it being a 
  field effect 
 
 Absolutely. I'm looking at the Jyotish Doctrine
 right now, the 834th edition, and it says clearly,
 The effect of the planetary bodies on humans is
 caused by Woo Woo. In particular, Shiva's Woo Woo.
 
 So there, Mr. Smarty Pants Hugo!
 
 :-)
 
  I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general 
  type and timing of events in ones life. (this may be attributed 
  to individual's karma but karma is a loaded word and without 
  precise definition is guaranteed to lead discussions astray. Is 
  a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of a watch? 
  Why so then with jyotish?
 
 Right on again. Mapping the general type and timing
 of events in one's life, and using them to predict
 the future, is JUST as valid IMO as saying, Hey, I
 was flipping coins just now and got four 'heads' in
 a row. Therefore the next time I flip the coin it'll
 come up 'heads.'  :-)

Well, you provide some nice poetic balance in making flippant remarks about 
flipping coins. And of course Jyotish, particularly the charlatan facade of 
jyotish many hallucinate to verbalize some of their fantasies can be rightly 
lambasted for well, many yugas. :) 

And in your spirit of jest, I realize you are making fun (fun is good, in fact 
fun is excellent) of my personal description of jytotish. And descriptions are 
hardly proofs. But if you are postulating that some heads are flipped out, I 
totally agree. (But mind you, I am not offering my agreement as a proof).

 
 The map is not the territory. In this case, it's 
 probably not even a very good map, since it relies
 on cartography skills from a time long before paper
 had been invented to draw the charts on.

By which logic, sailing in boats is a false artifact of misguided, heathen, 
middle-ages neanderthal charlatans. 

 
 Juat an opinion, and a Sagittarian one at that...  :-)


Is Uranus transiting your ascendant in Sagittarius?  Even if nudity is a 
protected right in spain, we (my mouse and I) do hope you keep Uranus covered. 
And keep it away from ascendants. Well, no, that's as archaic a notion as boats 
sailing. Party on. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote:
  
   
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
   
Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of 
telling of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the 
sun is up there, and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, 
being on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, 
etc.
Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. 
Good or bad. 
 What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
Please tell, oh great one!..?
   
   
   Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive sense is 
   needed to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and relationships.
  
  The fact that it's a technical subject doesn't mean there is 
  anything to it on a day-to-day useful level. In fact jyotish 
  is far more complex tahn it needs to be beacuse when the charts
  were first formulted they didn't know the earth was round or 
  that it and the plantets went round the sun, in eliptical orbits.
  The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
  understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
  is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
  and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* proposed
 
 Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)

John Hagelins'. Hard to see how they could affect us if it
wasn't by some sort of field. What else could the connection be?
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, TurquoiseB no_reply@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:
  
   Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the 
   art of telling of this subject.  
  
  I consider it merely another way of telling.
  Telling stories.
  
  As such, Jyotishi should be evaluated just as
  any other bard or storyteller is evaluated --
  Are they entertaining?
  
  If you gain some entertainment from their stories,
  and are not caused financial hardship by them, I
  for one see no reason why not to consult Jyotishi.
  
   No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
   and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being 
   on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, 
   etc.
   Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with 
   Jyotishi's. Good or bad. 
   What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
   Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this 
   subject.
   Please tell, oh great one!..?
  
  No great ones here, I'm afraid. Just ordinary 
  people, with ordinary people stories to tell.
  
  My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form
  of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark
  as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications
  themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, 
  catering to the perceived desires of the paying
  clients, and as a result of those desires, self-
  fulfilling.
 
 Thats a nice opinion. However, what back ground do you have in 
 Jyotish? How many years of study and practice? 

As a practitioner? None. As someone who has 
had Jyotish charts done for him, and listened
to the Jyotishi's predictions? Some, enough
to stand on my description of such predictions
above. I have so far encountered none more
insightful or accurate than the predictions 
a good cold reader such as Curtis talks about
could make, for anyone, without having any kind
of charts in front of them.

YMMV. Then again, if it does, I might suggest
(as a possibility, not a declaration of what
is happening) that there might be some possibility
of either self-fulfilling prophecy (believe it
will happen strongly enough, and you make it 
happen) or rose-coloured glasses (having been
told that the future will look like X, tending
to interpret even Y's as X's) going on. 

As you suggest, what is needed are scientific
tests, made against non-vague, falsifiable 
predictions. Unfortunately, many Jyotishi (and
certainly the ones on this forum) don't seem
to want to *produce* any of these non-vague,
falsifiable predictions for testing.

 Or are you just shooting the breeze about some casual observation 
 you may have had years ago? 

That, too.  :-)

 Nothing wrong with shooting the breeze. 

As if you have the ability to define wrong.  :-)

I'm just having fun with this, dude. I happen 
to *generally* believe that Jyotish is a placebo
or a cold reading phenomenon. But as I said, 
I'm willing to be proven wrong. It seems to be 
the Jyotishi who are unwilling to stop using 
vague, non-specific, apply-to-anyone cold reader 
language in their predictions and give some 
scientist (or even us) some real predictions 
to work with.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 

  It's rubbish. 
 
 Your understanding and speculations as to what jyotish is, from afar, or 
 actual jytotish as practice by a knowledgable and long experience jyotishee?

No need, there isn't any evidence it does work, no physical
model it could work on (quite the opposite as I point out)
so I don't need to study astrology I just need to see if there
is any sort of signal among the noise and I've never seen one.

BTW I learned how to draw up horoscopes a long time ago.
The maths really is rubbish. The earth really isn't the centre
of the solar system, sorry if I broke that to you too harshly.
 

 An iron age hangover that people cling to for
  comfort, so much easier to blame the stars,
 
 who is blaming stars? 

Stars planets, whatever.

 
 
  karma etc than take responsibility 
 
 or to face the awful truth that life is a bitch 
 
 And what studies are you citing to draw that conclusion? What??!!! Do you 
 mean you are drawing working hypotheses about your life that seem to work on 
 a practical basis, but you have absolutely no scientific / statistical 
 evidence that such models are valid!!? What a throw back to the middle ages 
 -- :)
 
 
  and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.
 
 Again, citations please. What journal are you quoting? 
 
  
  They don't even use the right number of planets in the charts
  because the ancients didn't know that some were beyond the range
  of the naked eye, 
 
 
 And their system didn't take into account the existence of the New York 
 Yankees! OMG! But why would that be relevant? If I develop some system that 
 works and it doesn't use some things that you personally think should be 
 in my model, why in heavens name does 
 that, in itself, invalidate the model that I have developed? 

Interesting, some serious denial going on here. If I invented
a system of prediction based on football teams the exclusion
of the yankees would be relevant in ascertaining the accuracy 
of my predictions but jyotish uses planets against a randomly
chosen backdrop of stars, if you exclude two large planets
then any predictions you make using just the others are going
to be innaccurate aren't they? Or you have to find some sort
of explanation as to why they don't have the same type of effect
that the others do. 

The system is a physical one so, unless there is a huge 
unexplainable gap in expectation derived from the unfinished 
model of the solar system jyotishees use (which you would 
obviously claim there wasn't) the outer planets don't have 
any effect on us. Which sounds suspicious to me, in the same 
order of suspicious as gravity only working on people with 
blond hair, why would nature pick and choose? If planets
are affecting or in some sort of symbiotic quantum entanglement
with the human brain (as claimed) then why only some of them?
 
 If you want to create a model that includes outer planets, the galaxies, the 
 New York Yankees and the top box office movie this week, or whatever you 
 want to have in your model, go ahead. But why would that possibly have 
 anything to do with another person's model an its validity?
 

 
  Try factoring *that* into your horoscope!
 
 I suppose I would if it had any more relevance that factoring 
  today's top film, or who won the most seats in parliment. 

You can factor in what you like it wouldn't be any more or less accurate. Some 
people read tea leaves or animal entrails for
christs sake! We humans have a need for omens to be real, why
I don't know, I assume it's some ancient way of making sense
of a complex world or a desperate way to give meaning to
something that has none.


  Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the moment 
  of birth? 
 
 I don't know. Who would say such a preposterous thing?

The jyotishee I saw was most particular about me providing
as accurate a birth date as possible.

His reading, analysis and predictions were crap of course.
But the other TMers I was on a course with thought he was 
great until I pointed out the obvious errors, inconsistencies 
and repetitions in what he was telling everyone. They then 
concluded he just wasn't a very good jyotishee. But he was
one of Marshy's finest apparently. He told everyone who went
to see him that they would get enlightened ;-)

  But odd interjections aside, now, back to the discussion at hand  about 
  jyotish .. 


 
 ?Would I predictably have been a different person if I 
  was a month premature, 
 
 Why in the world would your past prarabdha karma change if your
 were born immature, I mean premature?  That's as crazy as saying my watch 
 was set back an hour, therefore I really don't have to pay the bank my 
 mortgage.

Not really, you'd still have to pay if you have a mortgage.
But jyotish is reliant on an accurate birth time, what changes
happen in the mind before and after birth that can be 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:
snip
 It's rubbish. An iron age hangover

Regardless of whether it works, it was quite a
remarkable achievement.

The ancients weren't stupid, nor were they
superstitious, strictly speaking. One can be called
superstitious only if one fails to take into account
available knowledge.

To observe and catalog the appearance of objects in
the sky over time, to a great degree of precision,
such that they could predict where those objects would
be in the sky on a given date in the future, was a
magnificent intellectual achievement.

Once they'd noticed that specific configurations were
reliably correlated with specific events (e.g., spring),
it was entirely reasonable to infer that finer
correlations might exist as well, and to go looking for
them.

 that people cling to for
 comfort, so much easier to blame the stars, karma etc than
 take responsibility or to face the awful truth that life
 is a bitch and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.

Well, that's one interpretation, but as tartbrain
pointed out, by no means the only one.

 They don't even use the right number of planets in the
 charts because the ancients didn't know that some were
 beyond the range of the naked eye, which must render them
 highly innacurate.

Well, *not*. Astrology was originally based on the
observed or postulated correlations between how the
sky *looked* to the naked eye and events on earth.
What wasn't visible was entirely irrelevant.
 
 Besides the only physical field that is infinite in extent
 is gravity and the planets are so far away that they have
 less effect on you than a truck driving by your house. Try 
 factoring *that* into your horoscope!

But you don't have to. Just stick with the correlations;
there's no need to infer causation.

 Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the
 moment of birth? Would I predictably have been a different
 person if I was a month premature, could anyone have
 predicted it? No.

How do you know? You don't get a do-over to see what
would happen.

 The personality evolves over time with hormonal changes,
 interactions with others and our inbuilt genetic ability
 to cope with difficulty.

You're overinterpreting fixed at birth, I think. What
would be fixed is the starting point *from which* the
personality evolves over time with hormonal changes etc.

As far as being born a month premature is concerned, what
about all the hormonal changes that would have occurred
during that month?

(What you might want to ask instead is whether you'd have
had a different personality had your mother been 
somewhere else when she gave birth to you. You don't know
that either, but it's harder to make a case for it.)

I am *not* arguing that astrology works. I agree there's
very little hard evidence for it. I just think it should
be respected as a historical achievement.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_re...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:

 
 I suggest that jytotish is a system of mapping the general type and timing 
 of events in ones life. (this may be attributed to individual's karma but 
 karma is a loaded word and without precise definition is guaranteed to lead 
 discussions astray. Is a field effect necessary to postulate the workings of 
 a watch? Why so then with jyotish?

Because the components of a watch are in physical contact with 
each other. The planets are not physically connected to each
other and the human brain (except in King Tony's weird books)so
some sort of field is postulated by people who want it to be 
taken seriously. 

The astrological field isn't postulated by me by the way,
I think it's a symptom of having to sound sciencey to
stand any chance of convincing people to part with their money.
 
 As to whether jyotish has any power beyond random chance of identifying the 
 type and timing of karma is certainly valid -- and there are no valid modern 
 statistical studies on it so abundant skepticism is warranted. Personally, as 
 a tool for general descriptions of type and timing of the unfoldment of 
 events in my life -- it has more than not been uncanny -- though with a fair 
 amount of noise surrounding the signal. Not a proof -- but I don't have one 
 for any of number of other things that work in my life. 

Not a proof, no.


 
 )the whole thing is wildly innacurate because of the 
  extra distances planets travel away from us as they orbit the sun.
 
 So your model and explanation of jyotish doesn't hold water. I might 
 focus on your having the wrong model, than making wild claims about the 
 inaacuracy of Jyotish bsimply ecause your personal model of jytish is flawed. 

My model is the solar system, jyotish uses things in the solar 
system but uses weird and preposterous maths to get the things in 
the solar system to behave and appear to do things they do not. 
Like move backwards and be in the same house as other things
in the solar system. Houses don't actaully exist either.
 

  If you look at your jyotish chart, you will notice they don't
  take that into account, and indeed couldn't because the logarithms
  they use are designed to move everything into a relationship with
  a stationary earth that they don't have!
  
  And the predictably weird backwards and forward motions of planets
  going retrograde is an illusion due to us appearing to overtake tham as 
  we move round the sun, they are going in the same direction
  at the same speed they usually do! The idea that it means there effects are 
  reversed is revealed to be the nonsense that it is.
 
 And why is it nonesense? Again because in your personal unvalidated model , 
 it doesn't make sense? Hardly a strong case against real world jyotish, 
 though clearly a strong case agaisnt figment of ones imagination jytoish. :)
  
  If there was any objective evidence that astrology worked none
  of the above would matter but there isn't so why stick with it?
 
 Amongst other things, you appear to blur your straw dogs. Would a study of 
 astrology (as in some perhaps on particular branch of western astrology) 
 invalidate jyotish. And which school of jyotish. Does invalidating one 
 invalidate all others?  

If I had the time and inclination to test more than one type
of astrology then we could be sure but how many ancient systems
of belief using weird maths and an amusingly inaccurate models
would you really need to test in order to prove they all are 
wrong? Only one really, two if you are pedantic but testing
clsses of things is good enough to see if you had any signal.

I wouldn't have to test every type of dog to see if any might be
likely to be able to breath underwater as they are all in the 
same class of things ie: things with lungs that work best in air.
Similarly, types of astrology are all of the same class of things
ie: models that involve using planets and stars to analyse and
predict things about peoples lives.

If the first test of *any* type of astrology had turned up 
interestingly statistical evidence that there was something we
couldn't predict or know about in other ways then you would
have a case for further testing and maybe even seeing which was
best at making predictions. There is no evidence and no way of
explaining it if there was so why carry on believing it?

All types tested so far are well rated by believers but have 
fallen way short of the results neccesary to warrant testing all
of them. They all work in the same way. There is no signal.


   Here's a good introduction to the subject if you're up to it:
  
  Up to what? It's a good grounding in astronomy but doesn't
  explain any of the ideas about why anyone would think the
  planets affect our everyday lives.
  
 
 Again, who, besides what is happening inside your head, said that planets 
 affect ones life? Yes, that does 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[Hugo]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jst...@... wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
 snip
  It's rubbish. An iron age hangover
 
 Regardless of whether it works, it was quite a
 remarkable achievement.
 
 The ancients weren't stupid, nor were they
 superstitious, strictly speaking. One can be called
 superstitious only if one fails to take into account
 available knowledge.
 
 To observe and catalog the appearance of objects in
 the sky over time, to a great degree of precision,
 such that they could predict where those objects would
 be in the sky on a given date in the future, was a
 magnificent intellectual achievement.
 
 Once they'd noticed that specific configurations were
 reliably correlated with specific events (e.g., spring),
 it was entirely reasonable to infer that finer
 correlations might exist as well, and to go looking for
 them.

Entirely reasonable but, as it turns out, incorrect.
Which is good science. Bad science would be to still
believe tha the earth is the middle of the solar system
and that the sky is really divided into houses the 
position of which only some of the planets have a 
predictable affect on your life.

Other than that I quite agree that the ancients did
an amazing job of mapping the heavens and would have said
so with enough time to spend on posts. Their conclusions, 
of course, were wrong.

 
  that people cling to for
  comfort, so much easier to blame the stars, karma etc than
  take responsibility or to face the awful truth that life
  is a bitch and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.
 
 Well, that's one interpretation, but as tartbrain
 pointed out, by no means the only one.

Any actual evidence to the contrary always gratefully recieved!


  They don't even use the right number of planets in the
  charts because the ancients didn't know that some were
  beyond the range of the naked eye, which must render them
  highly innacurate.
 
 Well, *not*. Astrology was originally based on the
 observed or postulated correlations between how the
 sky *looked* to the naked eye and events on earth.
 What wasn't visible was entirely irrelevant.

Thsnks for underlining my objection.

 
  Besides the only physical field that is infinite in extent
  is gravity and the planets are so far away that they have
  less effect on you than a truck driving by your house. Try 
  factoring *that* into your horoscope!
 
 But you don't have to. Just stick with the correlations;
 there's no need to infer causation.

If there is a correlation there must be a cause.

 
  Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the
  moment of birth? Would I predictably have been a different
  person if I was a month premature, could anyone have
  predicted it? No.
 
 How do you know? You don't get a do-over to see what
 would happen.
 
  The personality evolves over time with hormonal changes,
  interactions with others and our inbuilt genetic ability
  to cope with difficulty.
 
 You're overinterpreting fixed at birth, I think. What
 would be fixed is the starting point *from which* the
 personality evolves over time with hormonal changes etc.

The onjection I have is that the position of planets
can mirror/casue/map/predict/whatever any thing that
has ever happened or will happen in my life. I don't believe 
it and have seen no evidence that it's possible.

I am always happy to hand over my birth details to anyone who'd
like to try and convince me I'm wrong. Timings and events in 
my life should be so obvious that there is very little chance
of misinterpretation. Anyone want to have a go? 
 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend jstein@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  snip
   It's rubbish. An iron age hangover
  
  Regardless of whether it works, it was quite a
  remarkable achievement.
  
  The ancients weren't stupid, nor were they
  superstitious, strictly speaking. One can be called
  superstitious only if one fails to take into account
  available knowledge.
  
  To observe and catalog the appearance of objects in
  the sky over time, to a great degree of precision,
  such that they could predict where those objects would
  be in the sky on a given date in the future, was a
  magnificent intellectual achievement.
  
  Once they'd noticed that specific configurations were
  reliably correlated with specific events (e.g., spring),
  it was entirely reasonable to infer that finer
  correlations might exist as well, and to go looking for
  them.
 
 Entirely reasonable but, as it turns out, incorrect.
 Which is good science. Bad science would be to still
 believe tha the earth is the middle of the solar system
 and that the sky is really divided into houses the 
 position of which only some of the planets have a 
 predictable affect on your life.

The appearance of the sky is predictably *correlated
with* the events of your life. The actual configuration
of the solar system in space has nothing to do with that;
if it's incorrect, it's because there are no such
correlations (or because the correlations are wrong), not
because the earth isn't the center of the solar system.

And the sky really *is* divided into houses. You can
divide up the sky any way you want to, as long as it
conforms to what you see when you look at it.

 Other than that I quite agree that the ancients did
 an amazing job of mapping the heavens and would have said
 so with enough time to spend on posts. Their conclusions, 
 of course, were wrong.
 
   that people cling to for
   comfort, so much easier to blame the stars, karma etc than
   take responsibility or to face the awful truth that life
   is a bitch and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.
  
  Well, that's one interpretation, but as tartbrain
  pointed out, by no means the only one.
 
 Any actual evidence to the contrary always gratefully recieved!

As above, so below. Correlation, not causation. You
can't blame something that isn't causative.

   They don't even use the right number of planets in the
   charts because the ancients didn't know that some were
   beyond the range of the naked eye, which must render them
   highly innacurate.
  
  Well, *not*. Astrology was originally based on the
  observed or postulated correlations between how the
  sky *looked* to the naked eye and events on earth.
  What wasn't visible was entirely irrelevant.
 
 Thsnks for underlining my objection.

I don't think you're quite getting it here. The system
was devised based on what could be seen. Those 
observations were entirely accurate. There's no way
charts generated by a system based on what was visible
to the naked eye could be rendered inaccurate by what
*wasn't* visible to the naked eye.

   Besides the only physical field that is infinite in extent
   is gravity and the planets are so far away that they have
   less effect on you than a truck driving by your house. Try 
   factoring *that* into your horoscope!
  
  But you don't have to. Just stick with the correlations;
  there's no need to infer causation.
 
 If there is a correlation there must be a cause.

That the appearance of the sky is correlated to events
on earth is caused by the way the universe was set
up: as above, so below. That there are no physical fields
that could affect events on earth doesn't invalidate a
divine plan that arranged for correlations which had
nothing to do with physical fields.

   Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the
   moment of birth? Would I predictably have been a different
   person if I was a month premature, could anyone have
   predicted it? No.
  
  How do you know? You don't get a do-over to see what
  would happen.
  
   The personality evolves over time with hormonal changes,
   interactions with others and our inbuilt genetic ability
   to cope with difficulty.
  
  You're overinterpreting fixed at birth, I think. What
  would be fixed is the starting point *from which* the
  personality evolves over time with hormonal changes etc.
 
 The onjection I have is that the position of planets
 can mirror/casue/map/predict/whatever any thing that
 has ever happened or will happen in my life. I don't believe 
 it and have seen no evidence that it's possible.

Yes, I know, and that's fine. But that's really all
you should be saying. The objections you bring up other
than that are all straw men with regard to the system
as it was originally developed.

Tangentially, you might find this of interest: There's
a theory in some 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

   My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form
   of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark
   as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications
   themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, 
   catering to the perceived desires of the paying
   clients, and as a result of those desires, self-
   fulfilling.
  
  Thats a nice opinion. However, what back ground do you have in 
  Jyotish? How many years of study and practice? 
 
 As a practitioner? None. As someone who has 
 had Jyotish charts done for him, and listened
 to the Jyotishi's predictions? 
 Some, enough
 to stand on my description of such predictions
 above. I have so far encountered none more
 insightful or accurate than the predictions 
 a good cold reader such as Curtis talks about
 could make, for anyone, without having any kind
 of charts in front of them.
 
 YMMV. Then again, if it does, I might suggest
 (as a possibility, not a declaration of what
 is happening) that there might be some possibility
 of either self-fulfilling prophecy (believe it
 will happen strongly enough, and you make it 
 happen) or rose-coloured glasses (having been
 told that the future will look like X, tending
 to interpret even Y's as X's) going on. 

I appreciate the issues your raise. If anything I am possible more skeptical 
than most -- and I certainly have seen massive amounts of charlatan activity in 
the name of jyotish. And I never had any interest in western astrology -- 
considered it bunk (Generally still do) . But after an initial lecture I heard 
on jyotish, and an intriguing  yet ultimately disappointing set of readings, I 
took upon my self to learn some of it, read / studied hard/ half a dozen good 
books -- did a lot of jyotish computer work, etc. With this, I perhaps am far 
more aware of its weaknesses than many. However, I  came across enough uncanny 
stuff in my chart -- and a few others that I remain intrigued / while 
skeptical. While we all have biases and flaws in reasoning, perception, 
analysis etc, I am aware of many of them -- and do endeavor to really challenge 
my assupmtions and hypotheses. And I am fully open to the possibility that I 
may be connecting dots that are meningless -- and deluded by irrational proofs 
etc. But I have some background in analysis and statistics, I am aware of what 
constitutes a degree of confidence in ones assertions and the implications that 
data may and often does not reveal. So I am highly skeptical, and its an 
informed skepticism -- more so that many that wax on about the emptiness of 
jyotish.  however, I am intrigued by some results.

 
 As you suggest, what is needed are scientific
 tests, made against non-vague, falsifiable 
 predictions. Unfortunately, many Jyotishi (and
 certainly the ones on this forum) don't seem
 to want to *produce* any of these non-vague,
 falsifiable predictions for testing.

I fully agree, many people in jyotish I have encountered, including well known 
authors / jyotishees, have no clue as to what constitutes a
testable hypothesis and the means to verify it. Its one reason I generally stay 
clear of things jyotish. I am not in any way a TB jyotishee. 

  Or are you just shooting the breeze about some casual observation 
  you may have had years ago? 
 
 That, too.  :-)

Don't we all.

 
  Nothing wrong with shooting the breeze. 
 
 As if you have the ability to define wrong.  :-)
 
 I'm just having fun with this, dude. I happen 
 to *generally* believe that Jyotish is a placebo
 or a cold reading phenomenon. 

It could be. I don't spend much time on it -- so thats an indication of how 
valuable I assess that it is for me.

 But as I said, 
 I'm willing to be proven wrong. It seems to be 
 the Jyotishi who are unwilling to stop using 
 vague, non-specific, apply-to-anyone cold reader 
 language in their predictions and give some 
 scientist (or even us) some real predictions 
 to work with.


Agreed. 

And I started my rant -- for fun -- because I at times see people attacking 
strawmen of jyotish -- not actual jytotish. So its fun to explore their 
irrationality when they are claiming jyotish is irrational. But I am warped 
that way. And of course there are plenty of things to critique in real jyotish 
also. But usually the discussion never gets there.

And i appreciate your good will in discussing this. And I am not challenging 
you -- just raising some observations and sharing some of my own experience. 
(And if I am out to lunch on this, it will hardly be the first time) :)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  
 
   It's rubbish. 
  
  Your understanding and speculations as to what jyotish is, from afar, or 
  actual jytotish as practice by a knowledgable and long experience jyotishee?
 
 No need, there isn't any evidence it does work, no physical
 model it could work on (quite the opposite as I point out)
 so I don't need to study astrology I just need to see if there
 is any sort of signal among the noise and I've never seen one.
 
 BTW I learned how to draw up horoscopes a long time ago.
 The maths really is rubbish. The earth really isn't the centre
 of the solar system, sorry if I broke that to you too harshly.
  
 
  An iron age hangover that people cling to for
   comfort, so much easier to blame the stars,
  
  who is blaming stars? 
 
 Stars planets, whatever.
 
  
  
   karma etc than take responsibility 
  
  or to face the awful truth that life is a bitch 
  
  And what studies are you citing to draw that conclusion? What??!!! Do you 
  mean you are drawing working hypotheses about your life that seem to work 
  on a practical basis, but you have absolutely no scientific / statistical 
  evidence that such models are valid!!? What a throw back to the middle ages 
  -- :)
  
  
   and shit just happens on a pretty regular basis.
  
  Again, citations please. What journal are you quoting? 
  
   
   They don't even use the right number of planets in the charts
   because the ancients didn't know that some were beyond the range
   of the naked eye, 
  
  
  And their system didn't take into account the existence of the New York 
  Yankees! OMG! But why would that be relevant? If I develop some system 
  that works and it doesn't use some things that you personally think 
  should be in my model, why in heavens name does 
  that, in itself, invalidate the model that I have developed? 
 
 Interesting, some serious denial going on here.

I am quire open to the possibility that jyotish is baseless. I don't see denial 
-- but perhaps I am blind. But, in jesting about, I found your arguments not 
critiquing actual jyotish, but some imaginary jyotish you appear to have in 
your head. I find that amusing -- and figured you might see some of the humor 
-- you have exhibited a refined and cultured wit in your prior posts.

 If I invented
 a system of prediction based on football teams the exclusion
 of the yankees would be relevant in ascertaining the accuracy 
 of my predictions but jyotish uses planets against a randomly
 chosen backdrop of stars, if you exclude two large planets
 then any predictions you make using just the others are going
 to be innaccurate aren't they? 

I have already stated my view -- no need to beat a dead horse. other than my 
general contention that you are critiquing an imaginary jyotish in yur head, 
not actual jyotish. but we might never come to much consensus on that. 

 Or you have to find some sort
 of explanation as to why they don't have the same type of effect
 that the others do. 

Again, yur premise is deeply flawed. Jyotish, the one I am familiar with, has 
NOTHING  to do with planetary or field effects. So you hare critiquing 
something totally foreign to me. I find it amusing -- but if you don't share 
the humor, we best drop it.
 
 The system is a physical one so, unless there is a huge 
 unexplainable gap in expectation derived from the unfinished 
 model of the solar system jyotishees use (which you would 
 obviously claim there wasn't) the outer planets don't have 
 any effect on us. Which sounds suspicious to me, in the same 
 order of suspicious as gravity only working on people with 
 blond hair, why would nature pick and choose? If planets
 are affecting or in some sort of symbiotic quantum entanglement
 with the human brain (as claimed) then why only some of them?
  
  If you want to create a model that includes outer planets, the galaxies, 
  the New York Yankees and the top box office movie this week, or whatever 
  you want to have in your model, go ahead. But why would that possibly have 
  anything to do with another person's model an its validity?
  
 
  
   Try factoring *that* into your horoscope!
  
  I suppose I would if it had any more relevance that factoring 
   today's top film, or who won the most seats in parliment. 
 
 You can factor in what you like it wouldn't be any more or less accurate. 
 Some people read tea leaves or animal entrails for
 christs sake! We humans have a need for omens to be real, why
 I don't know, I assume it's some ancient way of making sense
 of a complex world or a desperate way to give meaning to
 something that has none.
 
 
   Why would anyone think the personality is fixed at the moment 
   of birth? 
  
  I don't know. Who would say such a preposterous thing?
 
 The jyotishee I saw was most 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[tartbrain]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodle...@... wrote:

 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, tartbrain no_reply@ wrote:
 
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Hugo fintlewoodlewix@ wrote:
  
   
   
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, John jr_esq@ wrote:
   


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc108@ wrote:

 Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of 
 telling of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the 
 sun is up there, and the moon too and the other planets hovering 
 about, being on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the 
 placements, etc.
 Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. 
 Good or bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
 Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
 Please tell, oh great one!..?


Jyotish is a very technical subject, although a good intuitive sense is 
needed to interpret the planetary positions, qualities and 
relationships.
   
   The fact that it's a technical subject doesn't mean there is 
   anything to it on a day-to-day useful level. In fact jyotish 
   is far more complex tahn it needs to be beacuse when the charts
   were first formulted they didn't know the earth was round or 
   that it and the plantets went round the sun, in eliptical orbits.
   The maths astrologers have to use to compensate for those 
   understandable errors is horrendous but to stop using it
   is to admit that the earth isn;t the middle of the universe 
   and that if a field effect is responsible (which is what *is* proposed
  
  Which volume of the Official Jyotish Docttrine is this in?  :)
 
 John Hagelins'. Hard to see how they could affect us if it
 wasn't by some sort of field. What else could the connection be?

At the risk of mixing too many metaphors, my watch predicts when the sun will 
rise. Where is the connection? Is my watch causing the sun to rise. Is the sun 
causing my watch to tick? No, Yet you insist on only looking for a causative 
model. 

A point Judy I think was making -- many things can be correlated and useful  
for predictive purposes but have no causal effect, A on B or B on A. The watch 
is correlated with the rising of the sun -- but hardly causes it. In a somewhat 
parallel way, the clock in the planets don't in ANY way create our karma. We 
do that. (or did it). 

The emergence of events in our lives, something we created, may be correlated 
to various clocks. Its not really such a  hard concept.




its amusing ow insistent you appear in critiquing a totally bogus concept, and 
claiming you are critiquing (actual) jyotish -- or at least the one I am 
familiar with. 

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[shukra69]

http://cosmologer.blogspot.com/2009/12/predictions-for-usa-in-2010.html
this guy is very good


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc...@... wrote:

 Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the art of telling 
 of this subject.  No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
 and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being on the inner and 
 outer of life as the same, or the placements, etc.
 Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with Jyotishi's. Good or 
 bad. 
  What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
 Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this subject.
 Please tell, oh great one!..?

[FairfieldLife] Re: Oh tell me great one of Jyotish!

[TurquoiseB]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, obbajeeba carc...@... wrote:

 Curious to know what people think here about Jyotish and the 
 art of telling of this subject.  

I consider it merely another way of telling.
Telling stories.

As such, Jyotishi should be evaluated just as
any other bard or storyteller is evaluated --
Are they entertaining?

If you gain some entertainment from their stories,
and are not caused financial hardship by them, I
for one see no reason why not to consult Jyotishi.

 No one has to explain the subject that the sun is up there, 
 and the moon too and the other planets hovering about, being 
 on the inner and outer of life as the same, or the placements, 
 etc.
 Please do give any opinion or knowing of experiences with 
 Jyotishi's. Good or bad. 
 What about the delivery of the subject in these modern times?
 Experiences from skeptics, knowers are appreciated on this 
 subject.
 Please tell, oh great one!..?

No great ones here, I'm afraid. Just ordinary 
people, with ordinary people stories to tell.

My personal opinion is that Jyotish is, as a form
of prognostication, in exactly the same ballpark
as reading tea leaves. That is, the prognostications
themselves tend to be vague and non-verifiable, 
catering to the perceived desires of the paying
clients, and as a result of those desires, self-
fulfilling.

Most of the Jyotish pronouncements made here are
of the rear view mirror variety IMO -- saying
after the fact, Oh...so *that's* why that happened.
Raju was up Uranus. 

But, as I've suggested many times, I am open to
being proven wrong. All that it would take to do
that is for several of the Jyotishi here (and there
are some) to make several near-future predictions
-- non-vague, specific, naming names, clearly
falsifiable predictions. Post them here, and then
allow history to be the arbiter of the ability of
Jyotish to predict the future.

On another level entirely, my 'tude on this subject
of seeing the future has never been good, because
I've never understood WHY anyone would want to. I
wouldn't want to spoil the surprise of it all. Why
do they? Is it a control thang, wanting to believe
that one is in more control of one's life than is
really the case? Beats the shit outa me.

You asked for honest opinions. These were mine. Ya 
gets what ya asks for. But it's not my fault that 
these are my opinions...after all, I'm a Sagittarius, 
with moon in Fresno.  :-)

[FairfieldLife] Re: Prey tell me Sir Rick

[lurkernomore20002000]

Dick Emanuel Richardson as in he is with us.  The savior is with 
us.  He has circled back around from his 400 groups to grace us with 
his presence.  And yet he is bewildered why he is not welcomed with 
open arms.  The savior is not recognized.  For shame!  He is casting 
his pearls before the swine.  For Shame!  Oh Emanuel, take mercy on 
us.  Let us not suffer the same lot as Sodom and Gomorrah.  We are 
refuges from that ancient incident, and we have settled in this new 
abode-electronic though it may be.  Oh noble one, kindly have mercy 
on us.  You have flushed us out, and yet we still do not offer 
proper obescience to you.  Show us mercy oh kind one.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Dick Richardson 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 
 Prey tell me Sir Rick.
 
 
 
 I have always wanted to know WHY, from way back, so enlighten me 
if you
 will, and then I will take my leave and bid you farewell. Way back 
I
 considered you to be reasonably well versed in matters Esoteric,
 subconscious activity, metaphysics, et al.  And yet, 
paradoxically, you
 operate the most infamous and diabolical group on Yahoo, ever.  
WHY?
 
 
 
 Given what I do, and the many ways which I go about it, depending 
upon
 local circumstances and the tribes therein, I have been on well 
over 400
 Yahoo groups since their advent, invited to most of them, but not 
all.
 Invited back when I left most of them, but not all.  Barred from 
about a
 dozen, Mainly, Christian, Buddhist and Gnosticism groups needless 
to
 say. I have also started and owned about 40 groups, and given them 
away
 to Yanks to take care of – dumped a few groups that never got off
 the ground needless to say.  Also had many death threats along the 
way,
 and which comes with the package, even in this day and age.  But 
in all
 this time, near on sixty years of communication now, and in 
cyberspace
 since it got going, I have never ever come across a group like 
this one.
 WHY ?   What is this really all about which you are doing here?  
Is it a
 college for raising and nurturing the most obnoxious people in the 
USA?
 
 
 
 Truly does this club make Ricks Casablanca dive seem like a 
convent for
 Vestal Virgins.  WHY?  What is it about?  What is the purpose of 
it? 
 You and I will not be meeting up again, and I truly wish you well, 
but
 before I go do tell me about this - in private if need be; for I 
have
 long been dead curious about this one and as to its real objective.
 
 
 
 Dick Richardson.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Prey tell me Sir Rick

[Dick Richardson]

A mirror is useless for those who do not use their eyes. You must have a
masochistic tendency to put up with all this crap Rick :- ))  Anyway, I
bid you farewell and good luck, it was fun for a couple of days –
like old times.  And when the rug-rats bite then bite the bastards back
even harder mate.



Vulgus vult decipi – decipiatur.



Dick.

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Rick Archer [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:



 From: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 On Behalf Of Dick Richardson
 Sent: Friday, November 14, 2008 2:23 AM
 To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com
 Subject: [FairfieldLife] Prey tell me Sir Rick

 This group is a mirror.

[FairfieldLife] Re: Prey tell me Sir Rick

[lurkernomore20002000]

Dick Richardson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 I
 bid you farewell and good luck, it was fun for a couple of days –
 like old times. 
 
..as he packs up his waggon, folds up his stage, puts his 
bottles of Dickie's Special Insight Elixer away, and gets ready to 
ride to the next town.  So long Dickie.  Pay us a visit on your 75th.  
Oops, better make that your 74th.  (you know with December 21st 2012 
and all that)

[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Somebody Tell Mel That Jesus Was Jewish'

[Alex Stanley]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Gibson's Anti-Semitic Tirade -- Alleged Cover Up 
 Posted Jul 28th 2006 9:15PM by TMZ Staff
 Filed under: Celebrity Justice
   TMZ has learned that Mel Gibson went on a rampage when he was
 arrested Friday on suspicion of drunk driving, hurling religious
 epithets. 

Mel Gibson's statement regarding his arrest:

After drinking alcohol on Thursday night, I did a number of things
that were very wrong and for which I am ashamed. I drove a car when I
should not have, and was stopped by the L.A. County sheriffs. The
arresting officer was just doing his job and I feel fortunate that I
was apprehended before I caused injury to any other person.

I acted like a person completely out of control when I was arrested,
and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are
despicable. I am deeply ashamed of everything I said and I apologize
to anyone who I have offended.

Also, I take this opportunity to apologize to the deputies involved
for my belligerent behavior. They have always been there for me in my
community and indeed probably saved me from myself. I disgraced myself
and my family with my behavior and for that I am truly sorry.

I have battled the disease of alcoholism for all of my adult life and
profoundly regret my horrific relapse. I apologize for any behavior
unbecoming of me in my inebriated state and have already taken
necessary steps to ensure my return to health.

Source: http://tinyurl.com/lvwm3

Yeah, right, Mel... alcohol, which lowers inhibitions, made you say
things you don't believe to be true.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Somebody Tell Mel That Jesus Was Jewish'

[Peter]

--- Alex Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 wrote:
 
  Gibson's Anti-Semitic Tirade -- Alleged Cover Up 
  Posted Jul 28th 2006 9:15PM by TMZ Staff
  Filed under: Celebrity Justice
TMZ has learned that Mel Gibson went on a
 rampage when he was
  arrested Friday on suspicion of drunk driving,
 hurling religious
  epithets. 
 
 Mel Gibson's statement regarding his arrest:
 
 After drinking alcohol on Thursday night, I did a
 number of things
 that were very wrong and for which I am ashamed. I
 drove a car when I
 should not have, and was stopped by the L.A. County
 sheriffs. The
 arresting officer was just doing his job and I feel
 fortunate that I
 was apprehended before I caused injury to any other
 person.
 
 I acted like a person completely out of control
 when I was arrested,
 and said things that I do not believe to be true and
 which are
 despicable. I am deeply ashamed of everything I said
 and I apologize
 to anyone who I have offended.
 
 Also, I take this opportunity to apologize to the
 deputies involved
 for my belligerent behavior. They have always been
 there for me in my
 community and indeed probably saved me from myself.
 I disgraced myself
 and my family with my behavior and for that I am
 truly sorry.
 
 I have battled the disease of alcoholism for all of
 my adult life and
 profoundly regret my horrific relapse. I apologize
 for any behavior
 unbecoming of me in my inebriated state and have
 already taken
 necessary steps to ensure my return to health.
 
 Source: http://tinyurl.com/lvwm3
 
 Yeah, right, Mel... alcohol, which lowers
 inhibitions, made you say
 things you don't believe to be true.

The damn Jews must have made him say it.



 
 
 
 
 
 To subscribe, send a message to:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Or go to: 
 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/FairfieldLife/
 and click 'Join This Group!' 
 Yahoo! Groups Links
 
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  
 
 
 


__
Do You Yahoo!?
Tired of spam?  Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around 
http://mail.yahoo.com 


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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Somebody Tell Mel That Jesus Was Jewish'

[authfriend]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel babajii_99@
 wrote:
 
  Gibson's Anti-Semitic Tirade -- Alleged Cover Up 
  Posted Jul 28th 2006 9:15PM by TMZ Staff
  Filed under: Celebrity Justice
TMZ has learned that Mel Gibson went on a rampage when he was
  arrested Friday on suspicion of drunk driving, hurling religious
  epithets. 
 
 Mel Gibson's statement regarding his arrest:
snip 
 I acted like a person completely out of control

Acted like a person completely out of control??

Interesting assertion *from an actor*.

 when I was arrested,
 and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are
 despicable. I am deeply ashamed of everything I said and I apologize
 to anyone who I have offended.

Anyone?  How about everyone?

 I apologize for any behavior
 unbecoming of me in my inebriated state

Any behavior?
 
 Yeah, right, Mel... alcohol, which lowers inhibitions, made you say
 things you don't believe to be true.

You said it.  It's striking how he has managed to
*distance* himself from his behavior throughout
that apology.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Somebody Tell Mel That Jesus Was Jewish'

[sparaig]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley 
 j_alexander_stanley@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel babajii_99@
  wrote:
  
   Gibson's Anti-Semitic Tirade -- Alleged Cover Up 
   Posted Jul 28th 2006 9:15PM by TMZ Staff
   Filed under: Celebrity Justice
 TMZ has learned that Mel Gibson went on a rampage when he was
   arrested Friday on suspicion of drunk driving, hurling religious
   epithets. 
  
  Mel Gibson's statement regarding his arrest:
 snip 
  I acted like a person completely out of control
 
 Acted like a person completely out of control??
 
 Interesting assertion *from an actor*.
 
  when I was arrested,
  and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are
  despicable. I am deeply ashamed of everything I said and I apologize
  to anyone who I have offended.
 
 Anyone?  How about everyone?
 
  I apologize for any behavior
  unbecoming of me in my inebriated state
 
 Any behavior?
  
  Yeah, right, Mel... alcohol, which lowers inhibitions, made you say
  things you don't believe to be true.
 
 You said it.  It's striking how he has managed to
 *distance* himself from his behavior throughout
 that apology.


IIRC,  that's common addiction personality talk.






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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Somebody Tell Mel That Jesus Was Jewish'

[shempmcgurk]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex Stanley 
 j_alexander_stanley@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel babajii_99@
  wrote:
  
   Gibson's Anti-Semitic Tirade -- Alleged Cover Up 
   Posted Jul 28th 2006 9:15PM by TMZ Staff
   Filed under: Celebrity Justice
 TMZ has learned that Mel Gibson went on a rampage when he was
   arrested Friday on suspicion of drunk driving, hurling 
religious
   epithets. 
  
  Mel Gibson's statement regarding his arrest:
 snip 
  I acted like a person completely out of control
 
 Acted like a person completely out of control??
 
 Interesting assertion *from an actor*.
 
  when I was arrested,
  and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are
  despicable. I am deeply ashamed of everything I said and I 
apologize
  to anyone who I have offended.
 
 Anyone?  How about everyone?
 
  I apologize for any behavior
  unbecoming of me in my inebriated state
 
 Any behavior?
  
  Yeah, right, Mel... alcohol, which lowers inhibitions, made you 
say
  things you don't believe to be true.
 
 You said it.  It's striking how he has managed to
 *distance* himself from his behavior throughout
 that apology.


Huh?

What planet are you on?

The guy said and did some despicable things because of a disease 
he's been battling (and, no, having the disease is NOT an excuse or 
justification for saying what he did). But he's apologising...AND 
acknowledging that he said and did things that were completely 
inappropriate.

Compare that to the anti-semitic comments made by Bill and Hillary 
Clinton: 

- said, presumably, NOT under the influence of alcohol
- They have never acknowledged and admitted saying the comments 
(although it is as well-documented as this instance)
- they are/were elected officials and in much more important 
positions of influence.





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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: 'Somebody Tell Mel That Jesus Was Jewish'

[MDixon6569]

In a message dated 7/30/06 6:22:49 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Yeah, 
  right, Mel... alcohol, which lowers inhibitions, made you saythings you 
  don't believe to be true.

"And forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those that trespass against 
us."
__._,_.___





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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Somebody Tell Mel That Jesus Was Jewish'

[uvulonicus]

Dear Mel,

Please have your priest explain to you the meaning of in vino 
veritas.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex 
Stanley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel babajii_99@
 wrote:
 
  Gibson's Anti-Semitic Tirade -- Alleged Cover Up 
  Posted Jul 28th 2006 9:15PM by TMZ Staff
  Filed under: Celebrity Justice
TMZ has learned that Mel Gibson went on a rampage when he was
  arrested Friday on suspicion of drunk driving, hurling religious
  epithets. 
 
 Mel Gibson's statement regarding his arrest:
 
 After drinking alcohol on Thursday night, I did a number of things
 that were very wrong and for which I am ashamed. I drove a car when 
I
 should not have, and was stopped by the L.A. County sheriffs. The
 arresting officer was just doing his job and I feel fortunate that I
 was apprehended before I caused injury to any other person.
 
 I acted like a person completely out of control when I was 
arrested,
 and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are
 despicable. I am deeply ashamed of everything I said and I apologize
 to anyone who I have offended.
 
 Also, I take this opportunity to apologize to the deputies involved
 for my belligerent behavior. They have always been there for me in 
my
 community and indeed probably saved me from myself. I disgraced 
myself
 and my family with my behavior and for that I am truly sorry.
 
 I have battled the disease of alcoholism for all of my adult life 
and
 profoundly regret my horrific relapse. I apologize for any behavior
 unbecoming of me in my inebriated state and have already taken
 necessary steps to ensure my return to health.
 
 Source: http://tinyurl.com/lvwm3
 
 Yeah, right, Mel... alcohol, which lowers inhibitions, made you say
 things you don't believe to be true.








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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Somebody Tell Mel That Jesus Was Jewish'

[shempmcgurk]

--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, uvulonicus [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 Dear Mel,
 
 Please have your priest explain to you the meaning of in vino 
 veritas.


Great.  The justice system must be very happy.

We've finally found a fool-proof truth serum.


 
 
 --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Alex 
 Stanley j_alexander_stanley@ wrote:
 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel babajii_99@
  wrote:
  
   Gibson's Anti-Semitic Tirade -- Alleged Cover Up 
   Posted Jul 28th 2006 9:15PM by TMZ Staff
   Filed under: Celebrity Justice
 TMZ has learned that Mel Gibson went on a rampage when he was
   arrested Friday on suspicion of drunk driving, hurling 
religious
   epithets. 
  
  Mel Gibson's statement regarding his arrest:
  
  After drinking alcohol on Thursday night, I did a number of 
things
  that were very wrong and for which I am ashamed. I drove a car 
when 
 I
  should not have, and was stopped by the L.A. County sheriffs. The
  arresting officer was just doing his job and I feel fortunate 
that I
  was apprehended before I caused injury to any other person.
  
  I acted like a person completely out of control when I was 
 arrested,
  and said things that I do not believe to be true and which are
  despicable. I am deeply ashamed of everything I said and I 
apologize
  to anyone who I have offended.
  
  Also, I take this opportunity to apologize to the deputies 
involved
  for my belligerent behavior. They have always been there for me 
in 
 my
  community and indeed probably saved me from myself. I disgraced 
 myself
  and my family with my behavior and for that I am truly sorry.
  
  I have battled the disease of alcoholism for all of my adult 
life 
 and
  profoundly regret my horrific relapse. I apologize for any 
behavior
  unbecoming of me in my inebriated state and have already taken
  necessary steps to ensure my return to health.
  
  Source: http://tinyurl.com/lvwm3
  
  Yeah, right, Mel... alcohol, which lowers inhibitions, made you 
say
  things you don't believe to be true.
 







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[FairfieldLife] Re: 'Somebody Tell Mel That Jesus Was Jewish'

[shempmcgurk]

Well, the title of your post is, of course, precisely the point.

God chose a Jewish nervous system -- Mary's -- in order to create 
the Son of God.

Anti-semitic Christians can never gain the Kingdom of Heaven until 
they are able to look upon all Jews as they look upon Jesus.

Same with Muslims: until the day comes that they are able to look 
upon Jews as they look upon Muhammed, the doors of Heaven are closed 
to them.

As for Mel Gibson saying what he said: it's sad.  It was equally sad 
when I read the reports -- several different ones of several 
different episodes -- of both Bill and Hillary Clinton making anti-
semitic remarks (joining other American presidents who have: Nixon 
and Truman, for example).  Hopefully, these are comments that don't 
reflect the true nature of these individuals.


--- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, Robert Gimbel [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
wrote:

 Gibson's Anti-Semitic Tirade -- Alleged Cover Up  Posted Jul 28th 
2006 9:15PM by TMZ Staff
 Filed under: Celebrity Justice
   TMZ has learned that Mel Gibson went on a rampage when he was 
arrested Friday on suspicion of drunk driving, hurling religious 
epithets. TMZ has also learned that the Los Angeles County Sheriff's 
department had the initial report doctored to keep the real story 
under wraps.
   TMZ has four pages of the original report prepared by the 
arresting officer in the case, L.A. County Sheriff's Deputy James 
Mee. According to the report, Gibson became agitated after he was 
stopped on Pacific Coast Highway and told he was to be detained for 
drunk driving Friday morning in Malibu. The actor began swearing 
uncontrollably. Gibson repeatedly said, My life is fd. Law 
enforcement sources say the deputy, worried that Gibson might become 
violent, told the actor that he was supposed to cuff him but would 
not, as long as Gibson cooperated. As the two stood next to the hood 
of the patrol car, the deputy asked Gibson to get inside. Deputy Mee 
then walked over to the passenger door and opened it. The report 
says Gibson then said, I'm not going to get in your car, and 
bolted to his car. The deputy quickly subdued Gibson, cuffed him and 
put him inside the patrol car.
   TMZ has learned that Deputy Mee audiotaped the entire exchange 
between himself and Gibson, from the time of the traffic stop to the 
time Gibson was put in the patrol car, and that the tape fully 
corroborates the written report.
 
   Once inside the car, a source directly connected with the case 
says Gibson began banging himself against the seat. The report says 
Gibson told the deputy, You mother fr. I'm going to f*** you. 
The report also says Gibson almost continually [sic] threatened me 
saying he 'owns Malibu' and will spend all of his money to 'get 
even' with me.
   The report says Gibson then launched into a barrage of anti-
Semitic statements: F*g Jews... The Jews are responsible for 
all the wars in the world. Gibson then asked the deputy, Are you a 
Jew?
   The deputy became alarmed as Gibson's tirade escalated, and 
called ahead for a sergeant to meet them when they arrived at the 
station. When they arrived, a sergeant began videotaping Gibson, who 
noticed the camera and then said, What the f*** do you think you're 
doing?
   A law enforcement source says Gibson then noticed another female 
sergeant and yelled, What do you think you're looking at, sugar 
tits?
   We're told Gibson took two blood alcohol tests, which were 
videotaped, and continued saying how fd he was and how he was 
going to f*** Deputy Mee. 
   Gibson was put in a cell with handcuffs on. He said he needed to 
urinate, and after a few minutes tried manipulating his hands to 
unzip his pants. Sources say Deputy Mee thought Gibson was going to 
urinate on the floor of the booking cell and asked someone to take 
Gibson to the bathroom.
   After leaving the bathroom, Gibson then demanded to make a phone 
call. He was taken to a pay phone and, when he didn't get a dial 
tone, we're told Gibson threw the receiver against the phone. Deputy 
Mee then warned Gibson that if he damaged the phone he could be 
charged with felony vandalism. We're told Gibson was then asked, and 
refused, to sign the necessary paperwork and was thrown in a detox 
cell.
   Deputy Mee then wrote an eight-page report detailing Gibson's 
rampage and comments. Sources say the sergeant on duty felt it was 
too inflammatory. A lieutenant and captain then got involved and 
calls were made to Sheriff's headquarters. Sources say Mee was told 
Gibson's comments would incite a lot of Jewish hatred, that the 
situation in Israel was way too inflammatory. It was mentioned 
several times that Gibson, who wrote, directed, and produced 
2004's The Passion of the Christ, had incited anti-Jewish 
sentiment and For a drunk driving arrest, is this really worth all 
that? 
   We're told Deputy Mee was then ordered to write another report, 
leaving out the incendiary comments and conduct. Sources say