subject:"Re\: \[FairfieldLife\] Re\: Save Dogs in China"







In a message dated 8/11/06 10:47:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
   It's a mothers right to choose. Women have the right to decide if 
  they want to carry a child regardless of it's 
  sex.  Perhaps, but the social issue is 
  overwhelming the individual rightsin this case. The 
  individual's right to choose is leading toexceedingly 
  lopsided male-female ratios that maywell destroy Chinese 
  and Indian society if left unregulated.I don't 
  know how the heck you'd regulate it. Ban  the aborting of female 
  fetuses but not male? How  long would it be before you had an 
  imbalance the  other way?   Ban 
  anything that can be used to determine the sex of the fetus. Ultrasound 
   while the  mom isn't allowed to look, would be OK, as long as 
  the doctor doesn't reveal  the sex.
   Why not just ban abortion all together?Yeah, in a 
  country like China. That will work.. 

Certainly you wouldn't want some politician or dictator telling you what 
thesex of a child you are permitted to bring into the world or abort 
should be.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 1:06:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
  "authfriend" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
  "sparaig" sparaig@ wrote:   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
  "authfriend" jstein@ wrote: 
  --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
  "sparaig" sparaig@ wrote:  
   --- In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, 
  MDixon6569@ wrote: In 
  a message dated 8/11/06 3:21:40 P.M. Central Daylight  Time,  
  sparaig@ writes:   
  If you support abortion, you can't be against aborting 
   female   fetuses.   
 You can if the ONLY reason is 
  because they're female. 
   It's a mothers right to choose. Women have the right to  decide 
  if  they want to carry a child regardless of it's 
  sex.Perhaps, but the social 
  issue is overwhelming the individual  rights 
  in this case. The individual's right to choose is leading to   
exceedingly lopsided male-female ratios that may
   well destroy Chinese and Indian society if left unregulated.  
  I don't know how the heck you'd regulate it. 
  Ban   the aborting of female fetuses but not male? How 
long would it be before you had an imbalance the   
  other way?  Ban anything that can 
  be used to determine the sex of the fetus.  Ultrasound while the 
mom isn't allowed to look, would be OK, as long as the doctor 
   doesn't reveal the sex.  Hey, that might actually 
  work.So let me see if understand this.Judy is all for the 
  right of a mother-to-be to kill her fetus but she's for banning her right 
  to know what that soon-to-be-dead fetus' sex 
  is

This gives a whole new meaning to "central 
planning".
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/11/06 11:18:28 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Ban 
  anything that can be used to determine the sex of the fetus.  
  Ultrasound while the   mom isn't allowed to look, would be OK, as 
  long as the doctor  doesn't reveal the sex.  Hey, that 
  might actually work.  What about the mothers right to 
  know?What about it?

Now could you imagine that being said to a prospective mother in the USA? 
For all the doctor knows, she's coming in for a routine check up and wants to 
know the sex of her child. She doesn't have to make a decision to abort before 
she knows all the facts.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 7:21:12 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
Ban anything that can be used to determine the sex of the 
 fetus. Ultrasound while the mom isn't allowed to look, 
  would beOK, as long as the doctor doesn't reveal the 
  sex.Hey, that might actually work. 
   So let me see if understand this.  Judy is all for 
  the right of a mother-to-be to kill her fetus("Woman" would be the 
  appropriate term in thiscase.)but  she's for banning her 
  right to know what that soon-to-be-dead  fetus' sex isWhat 
  I'm against is abortion based on thesex of the fetus. 

But Judy, the mother doesn't have to give a reason why she wants to 
abort a fetus. She doesn't even have to tell the ultra sound tech or doctor she 
has any plans to abort and she has every right to know the sex of the fetus as 
she would the general health of the fetus at the time of ultra 
sound.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 7:34:30 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Gee. One 
  of the reasons given by pro-choicers has always been that  legalizing 
  abortions makes it safe because women are going to go  underground and 
  go to abortionists anyways when it's not legal.  Judy will 
  have us believe that a society that will have inevitably  have illegal 
  abortionists if abortion is denied by law will somehow  strictly 
  enforce the banning of ultrasound machines -- a procedure  that is 
  entirely harmless -- in order to determine the sex of a 
  baby.It's called "the lesser of two evils," Shemp,in a society 
  that values children of one sexover the other.

So it is "evil" to abort a fetus because of it's 
sex?
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 8:18:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
   Certainly you wouldn't want some politician or dictator telling you 
   what the sex of a child you are permitted to bring into the world 
   or abort should be.This really isn't the simplistic issue 
  some wouldlike to make it. There isn't any "good" solutionthat's 
  actually feasible given the situation inChina.The ideal solution 
  would involve everyone in Chinapracticing sound birth-control methods 
  *and* thesociety having a means of adequately taking care ofthe 
  elderly so they wouldn't starve if they had nomale children to support 
  them, and/or ensuring thatfemale children have the same opportunities 
  thatmale children do so females could support theirparents 
  too.But these kinds of changes aren't *feasible* inChina, at least 
  in the short run; they couldn'tbe accomplished in time to avoid massive 
  hardshipif abortion were banned entirely or if the statusquo of women 
  selectively aborting female fetuseswere maintained.So what you 
  have to look for is the least-bad*feasible* solution that will allow the 
  societyto function while you work for longer-term, morepositive 
  changes. 
  I would imagine the Chinese think the current policy will 
  fix the situation quickly.Once there is an over abundance of men and too few 
  women, fewer children of either sex will be born and women valued more. It's a 
  nasty and evil way to fix the problem, but the Chinese have a reputation for 
  using nasty, evil ways to fix their problems. 
  
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 8:19:38 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  What about the mothers right to know?  What about 
  it?  Now could you imagine that being said to a prospective 
  mother in  the USA? For all the doctor knows, she's coming in for a 
  routine  check up and wants to know the sex of her child. She doesn't 
  have  to make a decision to abort before she knows all the 
  facts.So you think it's fine for a woman to make a decisionto 
  abort or not based on the sex of the child?How prevalent do you think 
  such decisions are in theU.S. compared to China? 

Actually, I think no child should be aborted unless the mothers life is 
endangered, any where. However the accepted culture is that women control their 
bodies and reproductive rights and those are considered human rights, not 
political rights. The problem you have with aborting a fetus based on sex is the 
same one I have for aborting a fetus regardless of sex. I call that equal 
rights.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 8:19:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What I'm 
  against is abortion based on the sex of the fetus.  
  But Judy, the mother doesn't have to give a reason why she wants  to 
  abort a fetus. She doesn't even have to tell the ultra sound  tech or 
  doctor she has any plans to abort and she has every right  to know the 
  sex of the fetus as she would the general health of the  fetus at the 
  time of ultra sound.Which country are we talking about here, the U.S. 
  orChina?

Are the rights we hold dear and sacred here too good for the Chinese? Don't 
we believe that reproductive rights are a human right which is 
universal.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 8:22:28 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
So it is 
  "evil" to abort a fetus because of it's sex?"Evil" in this case 
  meaning having negativeconsequences. "Lesser of two evils" is what 
  wecall a figure of speech.

Allowing the Chinese to abort any child they want may have a very positive 
consequence from their perspective. When such a high value is placed on males 
and low value on females, the females are aborted under the one child policy, 
making an over abundance of males and too few females in the future. This means 
fewer women to bare children of either sex. It also means a humongous amount of 
unmarried youngmen fit for the military life. God! Isn't central planning 
wonderful?
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 9:03:42 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I would 
  imagine the Chinese think the current policy will fix the situation 
  quickly.  Once there is an over abundance of men and too few women, 
  fewer  children of either sex will be born and women valued more. It's 
  a  nasty and evil way to fix the problem, but the Chinese have a 
   reputation for using nasty, evil ways to fix their 
  problems.So you're in favor of Lawson's solution, then, sinceit's 
  clearly a lesser evil?

No, not at all. I was just expressing what I think the Chinese people and 
perhaps their leaders probably think.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 10:01:46 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Do the 
  Chinese believe in equal rights for women?Do they believe in the right of 
  the elderly to areasonably comfortable old age, by government meansif 
  necessary? Do the Chinese believe access toreliable birth control is a 
  human right? Don't we believe that reproductive rights are a 
  human right which is universal.Again, you're trying to make 
  this into an abstraction.If the Chinese believed in and implemented the 
  otherrights I outlined, the issue of whether one has theright to abort 
  selectively based on gender would befar less likely to arise in the first 
  place.

Evidently the Chinese have made their decision. It's 
OK.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 9:54:37 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 How 
  prevalent do you think such decisions are in the U.S. compared to 
  China?  Actually, I think no child should be aborted unless 
  the mothers life is endangered, any where. However the accepted 
  culture is that  women control their bodies and reproductive rights 
  and those are  considered human rights, not political rights. The 
  problem you have  with aborting a fetus based on sex is the same one I 
  have for  aborting a fetus regardless of sex. I call that equal 
  rights.You're avoiding my question. We're talking hereabout a 
  specifically national situation rather than 
abstractions.

I don't think the problem is very prevalent in our culture yet. We can't 
make Chinese law. But we do recognize women's reproductive rights as a human 
right which is supposed to transcend political rights. So either we say *no* 
it's not a human right or only *sometimes*, thus giving the state the right to 
make laws restricting abortion and taking away human 
rights.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 10:04:29 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
So you 
  acknowledge that not allowing the mother toknow the sex of a child would 
  be a lesser evil, Ipresume.

Yes it would be a lesser evil if it meant saving the life of the fetus, but 
we don't make Chinese laws. I don't think the Chinese really look on the 
issue as being a major problem worth solving. If anything they probably look on 
their current policy as a damned good solution.
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__,_._,___

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China

Judy, are you advocating banning ultrasound?  Because if so, then 
you've got a whole new set of problems, which is also happening in 
China for those women who didn't find out the sex of their child, (or 
couldn't get an abortion) and then simply abandon the kids in 
droves--to the tune of over a million a  year.

Sal


On Aug 12, 2006, at 10:42 AM, authfriend wrote:

 It would certainly *reduce* it.  Abortions can be
 done in back alleys with coathangers by unlicensed
 practitioners.  You can't do an ultrasound without
 an office, an expensive piece of equipment, and
 someone trained to run the equipment and interpret
 the results.

 Of course, you can't stop practitioners from
 whispering in their patients' ears.  But if you find
 that certain practitioners are aborting a high
 percentage of female fetuses after administering an
 ultrasound--or even if you found a high percentage
 of pregnant women who did not carry the child to
 term after an ultrasound (i.e., they went to a back-
 alley abortionist)--you could impose sanctions on
 the ultrasound practitioners.



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China

On Aug 12, 2006, at 2:07 PM, authfriend wrote:

Abandon the female kids, I assume you mean, right?

Right.

Like I said, it's a complex problem. This just adds
another layer of complexity. I don't think the
solution is to continue to allow women to abort
females selectively, do you?

Yes, it beats them having the babies and then letting them starve or fend for themselves in understaffed, overcrowded orphanages where many will die anyway.

And continue to allow implies a superiority of judgment neither you nor I nor anyone who isn't there is in a position to make. It implies that you know better. The pressure to raise sons in Chinese culture is immense. And with the one-child-per-family policy they've had for the past few decades, many women there are put in an absolutely horrendous position. Besides, I'm not really sure what I see as the difference between selective abortion (my term) and any other kind? It's all selective. Yes, there will be many and varied long-term consequences of this--many villages in China are feeling it already, as men grow up there and there are no women their age to marry--but apart from having some unmarried men, I'm not sure that's really a problem. And it sure isn't a problem compared to children dying in droves, which is what is happening now.

US is not a great solution, but it is, IMO, the lesser of two evils given the Chinese government''s policy. What would you suggest in its place? There aren't near enough interested families to adopt all the children in China who need it.

Sal

No, I'm advocating not letting women use it to
selectively abort females (in other words, I'm
advocating not telling them what the ultrasound
reveals about the sex of the fetus).

Then what would be the point of the US?

Sal

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 1:04:51 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
China 
  already has such a problem due to their former one-child-per-family 
  law.

Do you think the Chinese think it's a problem? Do you think they could be 
looking further down the road and seeing that fewer female births now would lead 
to fewer births in the future? That is fewer women to give birth next 
generation.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China

On Aug 12, 2006, at 4:07 PM, authfriend wrote:

 The pressure to raise sons in Chinese culture is
 immense. And with the one-child-per-family policy they've had for
 the past few decades, many women there are put in an absolutely
 horrendous position.

 Unquestionably (although Lawson says they've
 dropped that policy).

Lawson is full of crap--the policy is alive and well.  But in any case 
that's not really the issue.  As long as the cultural preference for 
sons continues, the  desire to get rid of daughters will be there, even 
if the government allowed 10 kids/family.  This policy has certainly 
grossly exacerbated things, but it didn't create them.

 Besides, I'm not really sure what I see as the difference
 between selective abortion (my term) and any other kind?  It's all 
 selective.  Yes, there will be many and varied long-term
 consequences of this--many villages in China are feeling it
 already, as men grow up there and there are no women their age to
 marry--but apart from having some unmarried men, I'm not sure
 that's really a problem.

 Well, but that's *the* issue.  Maybe you're right
 and it wouldn't be much of a problem, but it seems
 to me it might cause massive and intractable social
 disruption and imbalance that would have all kinds
 of negative consequences.

And all the unwanted girls that are placed in orphanages (and who 
survive) and grow up to become almost overwhelmingly prostitutes and 
drug addicts--and who then go on to have more unwanted children, 
perpetuating the cycle--what is that if not massive and intractable 
social disruption?  That's the fate of nearly all the girls in China 
who don't get adopted, as blood is everything there.

 And it sure
 isn't a problem compared to children dying in droves, which is what
 is happening now.

 Might it mean even *more* children dying in droves
 later on, though?

Later on when?

 There aren't near enough interested families to adopt all the
 children in China who need it.

 Definitely a big problem.  Again, the question is, which
 is the bigger problem in the long run?

I would say that that is impossible to determine until later on gets 
here.

 I'm really not sure, Sal.  I'm open to hearing
 arguments either way.  If aborting female fetuses
 would cause fewer problems, then I'd be for aborting
 female fetuses, as repugnant as that is.

What would cause fewer problems is if the cultural preference for boys 
could be diminished somehow, but changing attitudes, esp. such 
seriously ingrained ones, takes time, education and resources. They're 
trying, but until it happens on a large scale I'm not sure there is 
much else the government can do.  ABandoning children there is illegal, 
of course, but it doesn't seem to be stopping anyone.

 No, I'm advocating not letting women use it to
 selectively abort females (in other words, I'm
 advocating not telling them what the ultrasound
 reveals about the sex of the fetus).

 Then what would be the point of the US?

 Checking for abnormalities, determining the
 health of the fetus, and just generally making
 sure the pregnancy is progressing as it should.

 See this from the Mayo Clinic Web site for details:

 http://tinyurl.com/kn3un

 The money quote in this context:

 Ultrasounds aren't recommended simply to
 determine a baby's sex — but it may be a
 bonus when an ultrasound is done for medical
 reasons.

I *know* that USs aren't recommended just for that reason, Judy. I'm 
merely pointing out that it is used overwhelmingly for that purpose in 
*China.*



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 1:07:52 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
This 
  gives a whole new meaning to "central planning".LOL. Either 
  you're being really stupid here, or you're deliberately misunderstading the 
  point. Which is it?

Neither, you miss the point that you want the government to get involved in 
social engineering by passing laws about what child you can or can not abort 
based up on it's sex. Or you don't really believe that women should have 
complete control of their bodies.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 1:14:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 Now 
  could you imagine that being said to a prospective mother in the USA?  
  For all the doctor knows, she's coming in for a routine check up and wants to 
   know the sex of her child. She doesn't have to make a decision to 
  abort before  she knows all the facts.The US doesn't 
  have a problem with a large percentage of families opting for male-only 
  children when they know the sex of the child.

Should Chinese and Indians be denied any rights we take for 
granted?
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 1:13:55 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
But 
  Judy, the mother doesn't have to give a reason why she wants to abort a 
   fetus. She doesn't even have to tell the ultra sound tech or doctor 
  she has  any plans to abort and she has every right to know the sex of 
  the fetus as  she would the general health of the fetus at the time of 
  ultra sound.We're talking China and India here, not the USA or 
  other culture that might wipe itself out with sex-skewed birth practices. 
  Of course, if you see China as the "Great Enemy," perhaps you should 
  encourage such practices. Just be aware that the death throws of a country 
  with a billion people wouldn't be pretty and might destroy the 
  world.

No I'm looking at it froma human rights perspective that is supposed 
to transcend political rights. Either women have an inalienable right to choose 
or they don't.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 1:27:17 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I would 
  imagine the Chinese think the current policy will fix the  
  situation quickly.   Once there is an over abundance of men and 
  too few women, fewer   children of either sex will be born and 
  women valued more. It's a   nasty and evil way to fix the problem, 
  but the Chinese have a   reputation for using nasty, evil ways to 
  fix their problems.  So you're in favor of Lawson's solution, 
  then, since it's clearly a lesser evil?   
   No, not at all. I was just expressing what I think the Chinese people 
  and  perhaps their leaders probably think.Well, you 
  appear to be wrong, both by their stated beliefs, AND by their behavior (the 
  government's that is).

So it's no longer a problem? They have corrected the situation? 
Passed all the laws and educated the people enough? As Shemp mentioned earlier 
denying women the right to choose the sex of the child they choose to bring into 
the world will only lead to back ally ultra sounds and 
abortions.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 1:24:15 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
  Actually, I think no child should be aborted unless the mothers life is 
   endangered, any where. However the accepted culture is that women 
  control their  bodies and reproductive rights and those are considered 
  human rights, not  political rights. The problem you have with 
  aborting a fetus based on sex is the  same one I have for aborting a 
  fetus regardless of sex. I call that equal  rights.I 
  can't speak for Judy, but I'm talking about social engineering issues here, 
  not moral issues. My own personal athics concerning abortion should be 
  obvious.

Bingo, and that is why I referred to what you want as central planning. A 
government telling people what the sex of their children can or can not be by 
putting limitations on who they can or can not abort.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 1:26:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
What I'm 
  against is abortion based on the  sex of the fetus.  
But Judy, the mother doesn't have to give a reason why she wants 
to abort a fetus. She doesn't even have to tell the ultra sound 
tech or doctor she has any plans to abort and she has every 
  right   to know the sex of the fetus as she would the general 
  health of the   fetus at the time of ultra sound.  
  Which country are we talking about here, the U.S. or China? 
 Are the rights we hold dear and sacred here too 
  good for the Chinese? Don't  we believe that reproductive rights are a 
  human right which is universal.You're no longer discussing the 
  single-sex bias in China and India, are 
you...

You're starting to think.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 1:30:43 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  
  
  Judy, are you advocating banning ultrasound? Because if so, then you've 
  got a whole new set of problems, which is also happening in China for 
  those women who didn't find out the sex of their child, (or couldn't get 
  an abortion) and then simply abandon the kids in droves--to the tune of 
  over a million a 
year.Sal

Exactly. They call it infanticide. A problem China has had for hundreds 
maybe thousands of years.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 1:27:39 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Except 
  it hasn't worked out that way. And the CHinese HAVE backed off from the social 
  planning thing, to a great extent.

You just posted earlier that they are correcting the problem of allowing 
women to choose to abort female fetuses. That means they HAVEN"T backed off of 
social engineering. If the government is forcing women to give birth to babies 
they don't want in order to fill a need for equal ratio of boy to girl births, 
the government is most certainlypracticing social 
engineering.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/12/06 1:42:06 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Heh. I'm 
  talking about the social consequences of having single-sex familes on a scale 
  of 10's or even 100's of millions, and you've boiled it down to a 
  "abortion is bad and we all know it" thing.

Why would a society that murdered tens of millions of people care if the 
next generation had a few hundred million or even a billion fewer women giving 
birth to the next generation, especially if they had a population 
problem?
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China

Do a Google search on one child policy+China and see how many 
articles you get.  If it's been changed, it's not by much.  Apparently 
in rural areas you can have two if the first is a girl, but it's been 
like that for a while.

Sal


On Aug 12, 2006, at 5:57 PM, authfriend wrote:

 Sal claims they haven't changed it, but it's strictly
 implemented only in urban areas (where, apparently, most
 people are pretty happy with it).  The expectation, at
 least as of a 1997 article I read, was that it *would*
 be changed soon.



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China

I don't get Lawson's messages.  See the quotes from about 300,000 
articles posted saying that the policy is alive and well. Since much of 
China is urban, that's a pretty big only.

And that wasn't even the issue in any case, as you know.

Sal


On Aug 12, 2006, at 6:48 PM, authfriend wrote:

 See the quote from one piece that Lawson posted.

 As I said, it's strictly implemented only in urban
 areas.




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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China

On Aug 12, 2006, at 7:12 PM, authfriend wrote:

 I don't get Lawson's messages.

 The more fool you.

Yeah, I feel really deprived.

 See the quotes from about 300,000
 articles posted saying that the policy is alive and well.

 Yes, yes.  Nobody's arguing that it isn't.

 Since much of China is urban, that's a pretty big only.

 It isn't even just urban vs. rural.

 Here's what Lawson quoted:

 http://www.china.org.cn/english/2002/Oct/46138.htm

So? The quote says what I've been saying: that the policy is alive and 
well, with certain exceptions.  Lawson's comments gave the impression 
the policy was being abandoned.



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China

On Aug 12, 2006, at 7:54 PM, authfriend wrote:

I thought you didn't get his posts.

I read them in *your* posts and those of others, Judy, geez--don't you read your own posts? How am I supposed to avoid them there? Stop quoting him and there would be a lot less of a problem.

Or do you only get the ones you can 
contradict?
Yeah, that's the ticket...pull  another of your let's-start-an-argument stunts.

It says there's a *lot* of exceptions, actually.
Turns out to be nowhere near as draconian as we
had been imagining.

Which was not the main issue, of course--the cultural preference for girls was, and it's *especially* noticeable in many rural areas, in which apparently somewhat larger families are allowed.  Even so, in many villages boys still outnumber girls supposedly by 4 to 1.

In any case, you seem not to have received
either of the two posts in which he acknowledged
he had been mistaken about the policy being
abandoned.

One good reason not to killfile people, BTW.
You can end up with a lot of egg on your face.

Somehow I'll manage to live with it.

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China

Oops, I meant, of course, boys.

On Aug 12, 2006, at 8:15 PM, Sal Sunshine wrote:

the cultural preference for girls was

Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China

With Lawson's, yes.  It's not something I normally do--only with the 
more inane, compulsive posters like him, which, thankfully, are few.  
I'm hardly alone. In fact, of the ones who receive email, I'd wager 
more have him blocked than not.

Sal


On Aug 12, 2006, at 8:33 PM, authfriend wrote:

 I imagine you've had quite a bit of experience.



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China

On Aug 12, 2006, at 9:43 PM, authfriend wrote:

 (You seem to have deleted the context showing
 that I meant you've had quite a bit of experience
 living with egg on your face.)

Almost as much as you, I would guess.

 I'm just mystified as to why anyone would think
 enough of Lawson's posts are inane to warrant
 blocking all of them.  Maybe they just go over
 such people's heads.

Yeah, somehow we've all got it wrong and only you see the light.  It's 
not possible to do selective blocking, Judy.  But in this case even if 
it were I doubt it would make much difference.



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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/11/06 12:29:04 A.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
a 
  message dated 8/10/06 6:00:00 P.M. Central Daylight Time,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] 
  writes:  Prediction: there will be more outrage over this than 
  over the Chinese  practice of throwing  female infants out 
  with the trash... I thought they 
  just aborted themIt's pretty high-tech to be able to tell the 
  sex of an unborn. 

Is there some reason Chinese wouldn't have that tech? India does. 
India has the same problem of women getting ultra sound and aborting female 
fetuses, but of course, it's a woman's right to choose. Women in those societies 
want sons that will be able to take care of them in their old age. But 
I would imagine in those cultures there probably some low tech ways of telling 
if a fetus is male or female, astrology, holding a pendulum over the 
abdomen and watching which way it swings, reading tea leaves or 
palms.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/11/06 3:16:34 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  I thought they just aborted them   It's pretty 
  high-tech to be able to tell the sex of an unborn.
Is there some reason Chinese wouldn't have that tech? India 
  does. India has  the same problem of women getting ultra sound and 
  aborting female fetuses,  but of course, it's a woman's right to 
  choose. Women in those societies want  sons that will be able to take 
  care of them in their old age.???You think that women don't take care 
  of their moms? But I would  imagine in those cultures 
  there probably some low tech ways of telling if a  fetus is male or 
  female, astrology, holding a pendulum over the abdomen and  watching 
  which way it swings, reading tea leaves or palms.Sigh. 
  Ultrasound is an expensive procedure for someone living in a 3rd world village 
  and even in China, its not something that everyone could afford to do, I'm 
  guessing. Even in the USA, you have to have big bucks (relatively 
  speaking) or insurance or a charity insitutite in order to get proper 
  unborn health care and not everyone has access to that. 

Women in Cultures like China and India are lucky to have somebody take care 
of them let alone look after their mothers. Every mother in those Asian 
countries wants a son to look after them in their old age. Parents tend to live 
with a son in their old age, rarely do they go to the son in laws house to live 
because the son in law will be expected to take care of his parents. Ultra 
sound is not expensive in countries like China or India many clinics have them 
especially with the demand to know if the coming child is male or female. 
Remember India and China have socialized medicine. 

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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/11/06 3:21:40 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

  
  If you support abortion, you can't be against aborting female  
  fetuses.You can if the ONLY reason is because they're 
  female. 

It's a mothers right to choose. Women have the right to decide if they want 
to carry a child regardless of it's sex.
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/11/06 7:04:50 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
You can if the ONLY reason is because they're 
  female.It's a mothers right to choose. Women have 
  the right to decide if   they want to carry a child regardless of 
  it's sex.  Perhaps, but the social issue is overwhelming the 
  individual rights  in this case. The individual's right to choose is 
  leading to  exceedingly lopsided male-female ratios that may  
  well destroy Chinese and Indian society if left unregulated.I don't 
  know how the heck you'd regulate it. Banthe aborting of female fetuses but 
  not male? Howlong would it be before you had an imbalance theother 
  way?

Yeah! Some Lesbian Dick tater could seize control of a country and demand 
that one could only abort males or even demand that all males be aborted and 
then what would happen? A race of Amazons!
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China







In a message dated 8/11/06 9:42:04 P.M. Central Daylight Time, 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
 
   It's a mothers right to choose. Women have the right to decide if 
 they want to carry a child regardless of it's sex. 
 Perhaps, but the social issue is overwhelming the 
  individual rights   in this case. The individual's right to choose 
  is leading to   exceedingly lopsided male-female ratios that may 
well destroy Chinese and Indian society if left 
  unregulated.  I don't know how the heck you'd regulate it. 
  Ban the aborting of female fetuses but not male? How long 
  would it be before you had an imbalance the other 
  way?Ban anything that can be used to determine the sex of the 
  fetus. Ultrasound while the mom isn't allowed to look, would be OK, as 
  long as the doctor doesn't reveal the sex.

Why not just ban abortion all together?
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Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: Save Dogs in China