Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? Science ain't gonna find it. It's transcendent to the four known forces of nature, ontologically prior to them (and to everything else in the universe). LOL, what does that even mean! Nothing at all. No, it does mean something, it means someone wants to have their cake and eat it. A god to worship but no way of ever proving it - just claim it can't be measured. Well, maybe it's there and you can't measure it but it isn't doing anything to help or explain so.groundhog day. Exactly. This why Hawking thinks philosophy is dead, they just aren't engaging with the current paradigm which is proving to be rather successful. What we need is the will to find out, not hide behind unprovable arguments. You mean unprovable arguments like metaphysical ultimacy? I'm sorry, but that strikes me as a made-up phrase designed to dazzle with bullshit rather than say anything. It's like using the term Equus monoclonius to refer to a unicorn. It makes it sound more impressive, while ignoring the fact that unicorns don't exist. Obviously, some people are more easily dazzled by bullshit than others. :-) The only way this idea is going to survive is if there isn't anyway everything could have got here without some sort of ontological transcendent intelligence. You won't convince anyone about undetectable gods without necessity. Until then we can project what whatever we like onto the universe. It wouldn't be the first time! Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:01 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? Science ain't gonna find it. It's transcendent to the four known forces of nature, ontologically prior to them (and to everything else in the universe). LOL, what does that even mean! Nothing at all. No, it does mean something, it means someone wants to have their cake and eat it. A god to worship but no way of ever proving it - just claim it can't be measured. Well, maybe it's there and you can't measure it but it isn't doing anything to help or explain so.groundhog day. Exactly. This why Hawking thinks philosophy is dead, they just aren't engaging with the current paradigm which is proving to be rather successful. What we need is the will to find out, not hide behind unprovable arguments. You mean unprovable arguments like metaphysical ultimacy? I'm sorry, but that strikes me as a made-up phrase designed to dazzle with bullshit rather than say anything. It's like using the term Equus monoclonius to refer to a unicorn. It makes it sound more impressive, while ignoring the fact that unicorns don't exist. Obviously, some people are more easily dazzled by bullshit than others. :-) The only way this idea is going to survive is if there isn't anyway everything could have got here without some sort of ontological transcendent intelligence. You won't convince anyone about undetectable gods without necessity. Until then we can project what whatever we like onto the universe. It wouldn't be the first time! Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? Science ain't gonna find it. It's transcendent to the four known forces of nature, ontologically prior to them (and to everything else in the universe). LOL, what does that even mean! Nothing at all. No, it does mean something, it means someone wants to have their cake and eat it. A god to worship but no way of ever proving it - just claim it can't be measured. Well, maybe it's there and you can't measure it but it isn't doing anything to help or explain so.groundhog day. Exactly. This why Hawking thinks philosophy is dead, they just aren't engaging with the current paradigm which is proving to be rather successful. What we need is the will to find out, not hide behind unprovable arguments. You mean unprovable arguments like metaphysical ultimacy? I'm sorry, but that strikes me as a made-up phrase designed to dazzle with bullshit rather than say anything. It's like using the term Equus monoclonius to refer to a unicorn. It makes it sound more impressive, while ignoring the fact that unicorns don't exist. Obviously, some people are more easily dazzled by bullshit than others. :-) The only way this idea is going to survive is if there isn't any way everything could have got here without some sort of ontological transcendent intelligence. You won't convince anyone about undetectable gods without necessity. Until then we can project what whatever we like onto the universe. It wouldn't be the first time! Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit. Yes, we are at a bit of an impasse with this debate. Good fun though. Atheist Eve makes some good contributions, never seen that strip before.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Hey, Salyavin, you and I were talking about paranormal research in this exchange, remember? You brought God into it, not me. BTW, the light green type you're using now is so faint it's really hard to read. Please pick something darker. Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit. Yes, we are at a bit of an impasse with this debate. Good fun though.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Barry has always been...uh...metaphysically challlenged. ;-) Hey, Bar, metaphysical ultimacy isn't an argument, unprovable or otherwise. It's just a technical term. Relax. You mean unprovable arguments like metaphysical ultimacy? I'm sorry, but that strikes me as a made-up phrase designed to dazzle with bullshit rather than say anything. It's like using the term Equus monoclonius to refer to a unicorn. It makes it sound more impressive, while ignoring the fact that unicorns don't exist. Obviously, some people are more easily dazzled by bullshit than others. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Hey, Salyavin, you and I were talking about paranormal research in this exchange, remember? You brought God into it, not me. Wait I see what you mean. Barry was commenting on the God debate situation, that's at an impasse. has been for a couple of thousand years I think.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Hey, Salyavin, you and I were talking about paranormal research in this exchange, remember? You brought God into it, not me. I think God is quite paranormal and Ed Fess usually crops up these days. BTW, the light green type you're using now is so faint it's really hard to read. Please pick something darker. How about this? Seems that yahoo have changed the interface again, or is that only on my computer? Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit. Yes, we are at a bit of an impasse with this debate. Good fun though.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Me in blue... ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Hey, Salyavin, you and I were talking about paranormal research in this exchange, remember? You brought God into it, not me. I think God is quite paranormal and Ed Fess usually crops up these days. I didn't quote Feser in the God context, as I told you. And God may be paranormal in some sense, but the paranormal in the usual sense isn't necessarily a function of God. I mean, we could have the paranormal even if we didn't have God. BTW, the light green type you're using now is so faint it's really hard to read. Please pick something darker. How about this? MUCH better. Seems that yahoo have changed the interface again, or is that only on my computer? Changed it how? Since when? Not sure what you're referring to. Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit. Yes, we are at a bit of an impasse with this debate. Good fun though.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Barry was taking a shot at me because he assumed I'd started the God argument in this exchange (not having read the whole thing, as usual). ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Hey, Salyavin, you and I were talking about paranormal research in this exchange, remember? You brought God into it, not me. Wait I see what you mean. Barry was commenting on the God debate situation, that's at an impasse. has been for a couple of thousand years I think.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
From: authfri...@yahoo.com authfri...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? Barry was taking a shot at me because he assumed I'd started the God argument in this exchange (not having read the whole thing, as usual). And Judy is claiming to be able to read minds again. :-) I was merely making a comment for Salyavin's benefit, one that I felt he would enjoy and not be threatened by. It's a pity that Judy isn't either as intelligent or as non-reactive as he is.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/22/2014 7:57 AM, authfri...@yahoo.com wrote: Me in purple... This discussion group is getting so colorful! Why can't we just format like we used to? It's not complicated. All you have to do is put a right angle bracket in front of the quoted text, and place your reply underneath, then snip what is irrelevant to your point. I understand we're dealing with some newbies here, but you're not setting a very good example. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Bar, you have NO IDEA how transparent your mind is. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: authfriend@... authfriend@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 3:11 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? Barry was taking a shot at me because he assumed I'd started the God argument in this exchange (not having read the whole thing, as usual). And Judy is claiming to be able to read minds again. :-) I was merely making a comment for Salyavin's benefit, one that I felt he would enjoy and not be threatened by. It's a pity that Judy isn't either as intelligent or as non-reactive as he is.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/22/2014 7:55 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Hey, Salyavin, you and I were talking about paranormal research in this exchange, remember? You brought God into it, not me. I think God is quite paranormal and Ed Fess usually crops up these days. BTW, the light green type you're using now is so faint it's really hard to read. Please pick something darker. How about this? Seems that yahoo have changed the interface again, or is that only on my computer? Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit. Yes, we are at a bit of an impasse with this debate. Good fun though. So, who is saying what in this thread? We've got black, red, blue, and green text. Maybe we should just select a color for each of us and stick to that color: Ann can get purple, Judy can have red, Barry can have blue, and Sally can have the sienna. There's at least 250 other colors available on most computers. Maybe Alex could set up a database and keep track of the color assignments. Or, we could just format our messages and replies like most other discussion groups. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 8:42 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? Science ain't gonna find it. It's transcendent to the four known forces of nature, ontologically prior to them (and to everything else in the universe). LOL, what does that even mean! Nothing at all. No, it does mean something, it means someone wants to have their cake and eat it. A god to worship but no way of ever proving it - just claim it can't be measured. Well, maybe it's there and you can't measure it but it isn't doing anything to help or explain so.groundhog day. Exactly. This why Hawking thinks philosophy is dead, they just aren't engaging with the current paradigm which is proving to be rather successful. What we need is the will to find out, not hide behind unprovable arguments. You mean unprovable arguments like metaphysical ultimacy? I'm sorry, but that strikes me as a made-up phrase designed to dazzle with bullshit rather than say anything. It's like using the term Equus monoclonius to refer to a unicorn. It makes it sound more impressive, while ignoring the fact that unicorns don't exist. Obviously, some people are more easily dazzled by bullshit than others. :-) The only way this idea is going to survive is if there isn't anyway everything could have got here without some sort of ontological transcendent intelligence. You won't convince anyone about undetectable gods without necessity. Until then we can project what whatever we like onto the universe. It wouldn't be the first time! Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit. Cry baby. By the way, no one is talking to you therefore no one is trying to get you to argue or to convince you of anything with regard to God (or unicorns for that matter). Stop taking it so personally - you are hardly the center of the Universe except the one of your own making.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Me in blue... ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Seems that yahoo have changed the interface again, or is that only on my computer? Changed it how? Since when? Not sure what you're referring to. The options bar for replying to posts has been simplified at my end. Looks like they've adapted it for people using mobiles. Bigger buttons, only 24 colours now, it's actually easier.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
salyavin, about that yahoo interface change: sorry to have to tell you, but yes, it is only on YOUR computer. Well and computers of the other atheists too (-: On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 7:55 AM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Hey, Salyavin, you and I were talking about paranormal research in this exchange, remember? You brought God into it, not me. I think God is quite paranormal and Ed Fess usually crops up these days. BTW, the light green type you're using now is so faint it's really hard to read. Please pick something darker. How about this? Seems that yahoo have changed the interface again, or is that only on my computer? Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit. Yes, we are at a bit of an impasse with this debate. Good fun though.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : salyavin, about that yahoo interface change: sorry to have to tell you, but yes, it is only on YOUR computer. Well and computers of the other atheists too (-: They must be trying it out on people who aren't scared of new ideas
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Yowza! good comeback, salyavin. Obviously no chemtrails or GMO fried pork rinds scrambling your brains (-: On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:35 AM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : salyavin, about that yahoo interface change: sorry to have to tell you, but yes, it is only on YOUR computer. Well and computers of the other atheists too (-: They must be trying it out on people who aren't scared of new ideas
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : salyavin, about that yahoo interface change: sorry to have to tell you, but yes, it is only on YOUR computer. Well and computers of the other atheists too (-: On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 7:55 AM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Hey, Salyavin, you and I were talking about paranormal research in this exchange, remember? You brought God into it, not me. I think God is quite paranormal and Ed Fess usually crops up these days. BTW, the light green type you're using now is so faint it's really hard to read. Please pick something darker. How about this? Seems that yahoo have changed the interface again, or is that only on my computer? Nah, I have it too and now I don't have my proper purple color anymore. I'm lost and flummoxed. Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit. Yes, we are at a bit of an impasse with this debate. Good fun though.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Yowza! good comeback, salyavin. Obviously no chemtrails or GMO fried pork rinds scrambling your brains (-: Actually I feared you might find it insulting as it wasn't supposed to be! I just got back from the dentist and the novocaine hasn't worn off yet Shan't post anymore until I've recovered. BTW My brains were fried years ago, GMO and chemtrails aren't nearly strong enough to break through everything else I've done to it. On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 9:35 AM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : salyavin, about that yahoo interface change: sorry to have to tell you, but yes, it is only on YOUR computer. Well and computers of the other atheists too (-: They must be trying it out on people who aren't scared of new ideas
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? salyavin, about that yahoo interface change: sorry to have to tell you, but yes, it is only on YOUR computer. Well and computers of the other atheists too (-: No, it's not, dummy. When are you stupid Americans going to learn to stop speaking as if the things you see on the Internet are universal, and the same everywhere? I sometimes see slightly different Yahoo interfaces depending on my *Internet connection*, as in whether I'm connecting at home or at a cafe. You're pulling a Judy, Share, and trying to appear technical while having nary a clue. On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 7:55 AM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Hey, Salyavin, you and I were talking about paranormal research in this exchange, remember? You brought God into it, not me. I think God is quite paranormal and Ed Fess usually crops up these days. BTW, the light green type you're using now is so faint it's really hard to read. Please pick something darker. How about this? Seems that yahoo have changed the interface again, or is that only on my computer? Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit. Yes, we are at a bit of an impasse with this debate. Good fun though.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : salyavin, about that yahoo interface change: sorry to have to tell you, but yes, it is only on YOUR computer. Well and computers of the other atheists too (-: They must be trying it out on people who aren't scared of new ideas Exactly.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Just out of curiosity, Barry, when have I tried to appear technical without having a clue? Let's have an example. You're pulling a Judy, Share, and trying to appear technical while having nary a clue.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
duh, turq, it was a joke! On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 11:22 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, April 22, 2014 4:21 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? salyavin, about that yahoo interface change: sorry to have to tell you, but yes, it is only on YOUR computer. Well and computers of the other atheists too (-: No, it's not, dummy. When are you stupid Americans going to learn to stop speaking as if the things you see on the Internet are universal, and the same everywhere? I sometimes see slightly different Yahoo interfaces depending on my *Internet connection*, as in whether I'm connecting at home or at a cafe. You're pulling a Judy, Share, and trying to appear technical while having nary a clue. On Tuesday, April 22, 2014 7:55 AM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Hey, Salyavin, you and I were talking about paranormal research in this exchange, remember? You brought God into it, not me. I think God is quite paranormal and Ed Fess usually crops up these days. BTW, the light green type you're using now is so faint it's really hard to read. Please pick something darker. How about this? Seems that yahoo have changed the interface again, or is that only on my computer? Again, speaking just for myself, I have no problem with people believing in unicorns, or in God. It's when they attempt to waste my time by getting me to argue about either mythical beast's existence that I cry bullshit. Yes, we are at a bit of an impasse with this debate. Good fun though.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Indeed. The Turq is the only known person here to have been a member of a cult, so his expertize in this field is quite valuable, if you are interested in that sort of thing. Having been part of a mass-hypnosis act is quite something for your life CV ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 4/19/2014 11:57 PM, TurquoiseBee wrote: On 4/19/2014 6:09 PM, emilymaenot@... mailto:emilymaenot@... wrote: I just laugh at your obsession with using poor dead Fred as a baseball bat to hit Barry over the head with. Yes, it is funny - I use poor dead Fred as a baseball bat every time Barry uses poor dead Marshy as a baseball. LoL! At least Richard can admit to being a cultist, and to what triggers his use of cult tactics. For the record, it was Barry that was in a cult, not Richard. So, we should be thanking Barry for alerting us to the dangers of cults and cult participation. Now we know what cults can do to people and what people might do if they are in a trance-induction state. Sometimes people can even get brain-washed into believing strange things like levitation and other stuff. People that are highly suggestible can be easily coerced into working for the cult and giving money to the cult leader - printing up posters and flyers at their own expense and renting lecture halls for stage shows. Go figure. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Nabby, all of as here have been members of a cult, or at least associated with one except among regular posters, Emily whose daughter had a brush with one. You yourself are associated with rather non-typical beliefs in general. It does not help to accuse one of being party to the same kind of mental entrapment that one oneself is involved in. All of us show some kind of mental entrapment of which we are typically unaware. Maybe it would be valuable if first we ask ourselves 'Am I the one who is crazy?' ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Indeed. The Turq is the only known person here to have been a member of a cult, so his expertize in this field is quite valuable, if you are interested in that sort of thing. Having been part of a mass-hypnosis act is quite something for your life CV
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/21/2014 9:16 AM, anartax...@yahoo.com wrote: Nabby, all of as here have been members of a cult, or at least associated with one It might be time to review the definition of cult, which is usually associated with coercion. Has anyone here been coerced, forced, or held captive, by a cult org? We have observed that many former cult members and parents of cult members do more damage to their own credibility than they do to the credibility of the cults in making public presentations. Altogether too often these talks tend to be hysterical, hyperbolic, and factually inaccurate. - Bernie Seigel Study of Mind Development Groups, Sects and Cults in Ontario --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
salyavin, I agree when you say that love is measurable. But it wasn't always. Lots of stuff is measurable now that wasn't before. And some day, even more stuff that we can't measure now, will become measurable. Before, we only measured concrete, physical stuff. Now we're measuring less concrete stuff. And someday we'll be able to measure really less concrete stuff. There was a wonderful experiment at Heartmath, I think. They took a guy's skin cells and put them in a petrie dish and in a room with his wife. They had her express love towards the cells. And in another room, the guy displayed physiological components of feeling loved! On Sunday, April 20, 2014 5:09 PM, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Comments below... One reason I don't rule paranormal stuff out is that I'm not convinced science knows how to test for some of it. I could not possibly disagree more strongly with the notion that only what is measurable is real. Actually, measuring (in the broadest sense) is the only tool science has. Only? Find me something that can't be measured. Oh, you know, beauty, love, stuff like that, just for starters. But love isn't a thing separate from our experience. If two people in love are sitting on a bench in the sun and the people disappear, so does the love. The sun however, doesn't disappear. But it is measurable. Love is part of our inner world only and is therefore dependent on our brains and this is where it can be measured. Maybe crudely at the moment but I bet there's a distinct chemical signature involving dopamine etc that you could look at in someone's head and know what they are experiencing. Takes the fun out of romance sure, but it's them chemicals what turn us upside down I bet. Beauty could be measurable too, you'd just have to decide on a common framework for whatever it is you want to judge. It's all part of out inner life. Why we feel such richness for things like art or landscapes is another question but one of psychology and chemistry not physics, that won't be able to help us tell love from hate. Just as the success of metal detectors in finding metal does not entail that there are no other, non-metallic aspects of reality, so too does the success of science in capturing those aspects of nature susceptible of prediction and control give us no reason to think that there are not other aspects that are not susceptible of prediction and control -- aspects we should not expect to find by the methods of science Sounds like special pleading to me. Sounds like he's got something he wants people not to be able to find. Probably why he thinks science has no place answering metaphysical questions (if that was him). It was Feser, but gee whiz, he's far from the only person to make the same point, including some scientists and (gasp) atheists. (What would Feser not want people to find??) The point applies in many different contexts, not just theism. Including me, but I'm not the one with a theistic concept I'm trying to convince the world of that I think is superior to the current scientific paradigm. And besides, his blog is where you got the idea about metaphysical concepts not being open to scientific inquiry wasn't it? If it was he was wrong. NASA won't abandon it's plans to probe the cosmic microwave background because the overall concept of universal origins is metaphysical. What he (or anyone) has to do to convince me is explain what this god thing is and, most importantly, how it can be apart from the four known forces of nature. If it's real in any sense we'll find it somehow. Even if it's a real thing like love. http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/03/rosenhouse-keeps-digging.html#more Are there methods of investigation other than measurement/prediction/control that might convincingly detect paranormal events? How would you know if you had or not? Some paranormal researchers (Lawrence Le Shan in particular) have suggested potentially fruitful systematic, social-science-like approaches. See Le Shan's book A New Science of the Paranormal: the Promise of Psychical Researchfor details. OK, if it's orderable from my local library I'll read it. If you can get it, let me know what you think. It's been awhile since I read it. (He has a new one out, Landscapes of the Mind: The Faces of Reality,which purports to be a taxonomy of consciousness, whatever that means.) It's not but I read the first page on Amazon and might give it a try anyway.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Since you accuse me of being a cultmember I am looking forward to your definition of said. And you better come up with something better than mental entrapment. If not you better STFU. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Nabby, all of as here have been members of a cult, or at least associated with one except among regular posters, Emily whose daughter had a brush with one. You yourself are associated with rather non-typical beliefs in general. It does not help to accuse one of being party to the same kind of mental entrapment that one oneself is involved in. All of us show some kind of mental entrapment of which we are typically unaware. Maybe it would be valuable if first we ask ourselves 'Am I the one who is crazy?' ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Indeed. The Turq is the only known person here to have been a member of a cult, so his expertize in this field is quite valuable, if you are interested in that sort of thing. Having been part of a mass-hypnosis act is quite something for your life CV
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
anyone who thinks the old fraud Marshy was a saint or Benjy Creme, also an old fraud who ripped off his Maitreya riff from CW Leadbeater, is schmoozing with avatars might be said to have a cultish sort of mind-set. You just seem to like anyone who claims to be superior, the greatest, beyond all others and by following these liars you get to emotionally and mentally participate in fake greatness. Kind-a like most cult followers do. On Mon, 4/21/14, nablusoss1008 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Monday, April 21, 2014, 6:26 PM Since you accuse me of being a cultmember I am looking forward to your definition of said. And you better come up with something better than mental entrapment. If not you better STFU. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Nabby, all of as here have been members of a cult, or at least associated with one except among regular posters, Emily whose daughter had a brush with one. You yourself are associated with rather non-typical beliefs in general. It does not help to accuse one of being party to the same kind of mental entrapment that one oneself is involved in. All of us show some kind of mental entrapment of which we are typically unaware. Maybe it would be valuable if first we ask ourselves 'Am I the one who is crazy?' ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Indeed. The Turq is the only known person here to have been a member of a cult, so his expertize in this field is quite valuable, if you are interested in that sort of thing. Having been part of a mass-hypnosis act is quite something for your life CV
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
I regard all early states of a religion as basically a cult, from the word meaning to culture, non-mainstream beliefs compared to what is usual for a locale. Mental entrapment does not necessarily mean one is forced to do another's bidding, as the human mind is greatly susceptible to its own entrapment depending on the range of scepticism or gullibility it has, so we can shut the door to knowledge by being too critical or open it too much if we are too easily influenced by what others say to us. I regard the TMO as a cult, and I did work for this org for a time. I think it is more like a cult today than it was in the early years, and it is showing the definite signs of becoming a religion. After all early on Maharishi indicated he wanted to start 'a new religion'. I am using the word with a certain leeway. I am using the word primarily in the following senses: 1. a relatively small group of people having religious beliefs or practices regarded by others as strange or sinister. 2. a misplaced or excessive admiration for a particular person or thing. I simply stated that I thought all of us here had been part of or influenced by cults, so I was not singling you out. You on the other hand single out Turq as the only person so influenced that way, which hardly seems accurate to me. I am not saying here anything beyond what we both have been involved in, though I was never part of a UFO cult. - ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, nablusoss1008, yahoogroups.com wrote : Since you accuse me of being a cultmember I am looking forward to your definition of said. And you better come up with something better than mental entrapment. If not you better STFU. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Nabby, all of as here have been members of a cult, or at least associated with one except among regular posters, Emily whose daughter had a brush with one. You yourself are associated with rather non-typical beliefs in general. It does not help to accuse one of being party to the same kind of mental entrapment that one oneself is involved in. All of us show some kind of mental entrapment of which we are typically unaware. Maybe it would be valuable if first we ask ourselves 'Am I the one who is crazy?' ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Indeed. The Turq is the only known person here to have been a member of a cult, so his expertize in this field is quite valuable, if you are interested in that sort of thing. Having been part of a mass-hypnosis act is quite something for your life CV
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
More comments below (in blue). ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Comments below... One reason I don't rule paranormal stuff out is that I'm not convinced science knows how to test for some of it. I could not possibly disagree more strongly with the notion that only what is measurable is real. Actually, measuring (in the broadest sense) is the only tool science has. Only? Find me something that can't be measured. Oh, you know, beauty, love, stuff like that, just for starters. But love isn't a thing separate from our experience. If two people in love are sitting on a bench in the sun and the people disappear, so does the love. The sun however, doesn't disappear. But it is measurable. Love is part of our inner world only and is therefore dependent on our brains and this is where it can be measured. Maybe crudely at the moment VERY crudely: yes or no, that's it. but I bet there's a distinct chemical signature involving dopamine etc that you could look at in someone's head and know what they are experiencing. What they are experiencing covers a lot of territory. Just saying, Oh, they're experiencing love doesn't tell you much. Takes the fun out of romance sure, but it's them chemicals what turn us upside down I bet. Surely chemicals have something to do with it. But which came first, the chemicals or the love? Beauty could be measurable too, you'd just have to decide on a common framework for whatever it is you want to judge. Oh, jeepers. Right, try getting a statistically significant sample of people to agree on what's beautiful and what isn't. It's all part of out inner life. Why we feel such richness for things like art or landscapes is another question but one of psychology and chemistry not physics, that won't be able to help us tell love from hate. Supposedly psychology and chemistry are all reducible to physics. Just as the success of metal detectors in finding metal does not entail that there are no other, non-metallic aspects of reality, so too does the success of science in capturing those aspects of nature susceptible of prediction and control give us no reason to think that there are not other aspects that are not susceptible of prediction and control -- aspects we should not expect to find by the methods of science Sounds like special pleading to me. Sounds like he's got something he wants people not to be able to find. Probably why he thinks science has no place answering metaphysical questions (if that was him). It was Feser, but gee whiz, he's far from the only person to make the same point, including some scientists and (gasp) atheists. (What would Feser not want people to find??) The point applies in many different contexts, not just theism. Including me, but I'm not the one with a theistic concept I'm trying to convince the world of that I think is superior to the current scientific paradigm. Neither is Feser. Classical theism doesn't claim to be superior to the current scientific paradigm. (And I wasn't using the quote in that context in any case.) And besides, his blog is where you got the idea about metaphysical concepts not being open to scientific inquiry wasn't it? Sheesh. Not that I recall. If it was he was wrong. NASA won't abandon it's plans to probe the cosmic microwave background because the overall concept of universal origins is metaphysical. Of course not. No theist would suggest such a thing. What he (or anyone) has to do to convince me is explain what this god thing is and, most importantly, how it can be apart from the four known forces of nature. If it's real in any sense we'll find it somehow. Even if it's a real thing like love. Science ain't gonna find it. It's transcendent to the four known forces of nature, ontologically prior to them (and to everything else in the universe). http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/03/rosenhouse-keeps-digging.html#more http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/03/rosenhouse-keeps-digging.html#more Are there methods of investigation other than measurement/prediction/control that might convincingly detect paranormal events? How would you know if you had or not? Some paranormal researchers (Lawrence Le Shan in particular) have suggested potentially fruitful systematic, social-science-like approaches. See Le Shan's book A New Science of the Paranormal: the Promise of Psychical Research for details. OK, if it's orderable from my local library I'll read it. If you can get it, let me know what you think. It's been awhile since I read it. (He has a new one out, Landscapes of the Mind: The Faces of Reality, which purports to be a taxonomy of consciousness, whatever that means.) It's not but I read the first page on Amazon and might give it a
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Sal wrote: A better question for you to ask would be, why doesn't it happen to everyone if reincarnation is a common occurrence? Why to so very few? Maybe for the same reason we often don't remember our dreams after awakening. I mean to answer that aside from something like, the process is set up that way, because a recall of that nature could likely disruptive to one's present life. Aside from that, I would say the birth process is a somewhat traumatic event, which is followed a tremendous amount of sensory input, as we become accustomed to the new world we are born into. All of that would likely overshadow the memory of a previous life. Seems to me that's the same as it would be if there wasn't any reincarnation. The process being set up that way is one of those convenient extra's you need to make it work. Who or what set it up? My main questions are, where do the souls come from? There are twice as many people as there were 20-odd years ago. Do we get an upgraded animal soul? That might explain behaviour at football matches but how did it get started in the first place. If there isn't a ready soul when you are born does a new one get made for you? Finally, how can we measure them? They must be measurable if they control what happens in our heads, or even just interact in some/any way. It always seems to me the essence of a poor theory is when it raises more questions than it answers. That isn't denial I'm just waiting to be convinced. One of the major stories I know of like that is of a Scottish boy who said he came from an island where planes land on the beach. It turns out there is one, called Barra. His family claimed there was no way he could have known but even when they were being interviewed there was a TV on in the background. The most recent incident I recall is that of small child (American) recalling a memory of being a fighter pilot in WW2, IIRC. There didn't appear to be any mitigating factors such as the type you mention. Apart from the fact they live in a culture where WW2 is mentioned daily on TV. It's hard to be sure about things like this. But I have heard fascinating stories, you have to remember that they aren't studied by anyone objective, people might have their own reasons for blurring what happened with what they want to be true. It's a known problem with paranormal research that when faced with with something unexpected the imagination can run riot and people create all sorts of apparently convincing stories out of meagre data. It's the pattern recognition part of our minds that makes 1 + 1 sometimes equal 37. I'm all for getting scientific about things like this but they are extremely rare and so not easy to test. Basically you have to iron out the possibility of them picking the information up anywhere else. The plural of anecdote really isn't data, I've yet to see a story like this that has reliable facts that are certain not to have been isolated from the child. These stories appear in the mainstream media periodically, and there are also a number of instances that have been documented elsewhere. I am sorry I can't give you a reference for those. I am sure many of the stories are false, but enough of them seem able to survive the scrutiny to which they are subjected. And like a lot of beliefs about the mind it lacks any known mechanism about how it might work, which doesn't mean it can't but it would also have to explain why it works so rarely. Tricky for something physical. If that's what it is. Everyone dreams for instance. I imagine that it would be anomalies such a these that might be able to puncture a hole in belief that these things are just a fabrication of the mind. Certainly I recommend subjecting these accounts to a rigorous examination. Seems to me that knowledge of previous lives would be immensely useful, why do we forget it? Why do you think it would be so helpful? I think it could be counter productive. Putting it in an evolutionary context, the vast majority of people that ever lived were hunter gatherers. I think it would be highly useful to automatically know how to find water, how to avoid leopards etc. we are born as we are with minimal instincts and mental development (compared to other animals) because evolution favoured a more sophisticated culture which our brains need to learn from our parents. Any extra help would make this so much easier surely? Nowadays, if evolution were known to be true we still had the skill and remembered everything we could bury a pot of cash and pick it up in our next life. Or get revenge on whoever it was that ran us over thus ending this one. You might say it just isn't set up to work like that but you'd just be multiplying entities beyond neccessity again. Occams razor. Anyway the burden of proof is always on the
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Seems to me that knowledge of previous lives would be immensely useful, why do we forget it? Why do you think it would be so helpful? I think it could be counter productive. Putting it in an evolutionary context, the vast majority of people that ever lived were hunter gatherers. I think it would be highly useful to automatically know how to find water, how to avoid leopards etc. we are born as we are with minimal instincts and mental development (compared to other animals) because evolution favoured a more sophisticated culture which our brains need to learn from our parents. Any extra help would make this so much easier surely? Just to play Deva's Advocate, no reincarnation is necessary for useful skills to be passed along to the next generation. Unless you believe that each new chicken contains the reincarnated soul of another chicken, that is. Biologist Konrad Lorenz has proved that baby chicks just out of the egg run for cover when they see a silhouette of a falcon—even a plywood model. Nowadays, if evolution were known to be true we still had the skill and remembered everything we could bury a pot of cash and pick it up in our next life. Or get revenge on whoever it was that ran us over thus ending this one. You might say it just isn't set up to work like that but you'd just be multiplying entities beyond neccessity again. Occams razor. Anyway the burden of proof is always on the people with radical ideas so I'll wait until someone figures out a way of proving it. But not in denial though. Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 8:26 AM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Seems to me that knowledge of previous lives would be immensely useful, why do we forget it? Why do you think it would be so helpful? I think it could be counter productive. Putting it in an evolutionary context, the vast majority of people that ever lived were hunter gatherers. I think it would be highly useful to automatically know how to find water, how to avoid leopards etc. we are born as we are with minimal instincts and mental development (compared to other animals) because evolution favoured a more sophisticated culture which our brains need to learn from our parents. Any extra help would make this so much easier surely? Just to play Deva's Advocate, no reincarnation is necessary for useful skills to be passed along to the next generation. Unless you believe that each new chicken contains the reincarnated soul of another chicken, that is. Biologist Konrad Lorenz has proved that baby chicks just out of the egg run for cover when they see a silhouette of a falcon—even a plywood model. Nowadays, if evolution were known to be true we still had the skill and remembered everything we could bury a pot of cash and pick it up in our next life. Or get revenge on whoever it was that ran us over thus ending this one. You might say it just isn't set up to work like that but you'd just be multiplying entities beyond neccessity again. Occams razor. Anyway the burden of proof is always on the people with radical ideas so I'll wait until someone figures out a way of proving it. But not in denial though. Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not remember is the same experience as if it were never there. What is the need to fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to remember now and then. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Just to follow up, Salyavin, what would you feel constituted sure-fire proof of something like reincarnation, or siddhis being performed? I can speak to the latter somewhat, taking for example the siddhi of levitation. Video wouldn't do it, because 14-year-olds can hack video these days to make it look like whatever they want it to look like. Demos in front of large groups of people wouldn't cut it, because then the it must have been mass hallucination folks would come out with that doubt-dick swinging. One of the things I learned first from spending time with the Rama guy was that proof is overrated, as is the belief that it would mean anything to most people. I've sat in lecture halls with a guest who jumped in her seat and exclaimed loudly, Oh my God, he's floating! when Rama did his thing, but who the next day claimed she'd seen nothing. In her case, it was because she was a TB TMer, and it so severely challenged her world view to have seen something that supposedly isn't possible outside the TM movement in a room in the L.A. Convention Center. So she just chose to forget ever having seen it. I've seen other people do the same thing without the TM indoctrination; they just couldn't get past having seen what they considered to be the laws of nature being violated in front of their eyes, so they just metaphorically closed their eyes and pretended later not to have seen it. After having admitted at the time that they *had* seen it, that is...given a night or two to think about what having seen it would do to their world, they chose not to have seen it. I think this would happen with pretty much any sure-fire proof you could think up. Those who wish to believe would believe, and those who wish not to believe would not. I mean, there are people on this planet who still believe firmly that humans have never set foot on the moon, and what could have *been* more real-time documented than that event? The funny thing from my point of view is that I suspect that viewing video of siddhis being performed wouldn't do diddleysquat for the people viewing it, *even if they believed it to be true*. The reason I feel this way is that there is an *energy* that accompanies the performance of siddhis, and I seriously doubt that this energy could be captured on video. The siddhi itself -- Big Whoop. Seen one, you've seen 'em all. But the *energy*?! THAT was transformative. Below I mentioned being blown out of the water in terms of having your current beliefs so challenged as to evaporate and go poof! Watching someone violate the supposed laws of gravity -- *in conjunction with that energy*, whatever it was -- was that kinda belief-challenging new start stuff, in spades. Unless you blot it out of your mind and pretend that you didn't see it (like the people I mentioned above), you're pretty much stuck with some serious Cognitive Dissonance for the rest of your life. The *easy path* is to pretend you didn't see it. The hard path is to accept that you really DID see it, even if you have no idea what it was. I saw what I saw, and experienced what I felt. I can't go back from that, and pretend that I didn't. I don't claim to know what those experiences were, but they were mine, and I own them. I don't try to sell them to others, but I own them. I'll spend the rest of my life trying to figure out what some of them were. But I can't feel badly about *any* of them, because they were a real E-ticket ride and they were transformative, and they gave me more new starts than I can count. From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Xeno, I think and have experienced that the deep now is not limited to the surface now. I think it contains past and future and can be accessed depending on the clarity of one's nervous system, etc. On Sunday, April 20, 2014 7:06 AM, anartax...@yahoo.com anartax...@yahoo.com wrote: Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not remember is the same experience as if it were never there. What is the need to fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to remember now and then. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Share, the surface and the depth are same, the mind conceptualises the depth, that is the illusion. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Xeno, I think and have experienced that the deep now is not limited to the surface now. I think it contains past and future and can be accessed depending on the clarity of one's nervous system, etc. On Sunday, April 20, 2014 7:06 AM, anartaxius@... anartaxius@... wrote: Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not remember is the same experience as if it were never there. What is the need to fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to remember now and then. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
From: Share Long sharelon...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 2:12 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? Xeno, I think and have experienced that the deep now is not limited to the surface now. I think it contains past and future and can be accessed depending on the clarity of one's nervous system, etc. Interestingly, I have no problem with this at all. That's what my waking-state flashbacks were like. To call them past life flashbacks is to do them a real disservice, because that's not what they were like at all. It was more as if I were viewing an alternative timeline, congruent with the present, and just as real. It was like being in the same body but having clicked the remote control accidentally and now seeing the same scene in a different when. On Sunday, April 20, 2014 7:06 AM, anartax...@yahoo.com anartax...@yahoo.com wrote: Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not remember is the same experie nce as if it were never there. What is the need to fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to remember now and then. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Sal wrote: A better question for you to ask would be, why doesn't it happen to everyone if reincarnation is a common occurrence? Why to so very few? Maybe for the same reason we often don't remember our dreams after awakening. I mean to answer that aside from something like, the process is set up that way, because a recall of that nature could likely disruptive to one's present life. Aside from that, I would say the birth process is a somewhat traumatic event, which is followed a tremendous amount of sensory input, as we become accustomed to the new world we are born into. All of that would likely overshadow the memory of a previous life. Seems to me that's the same as it would be if there wasn't any reincarnation. The process being set up that way is one of those convenient extra's you need to make it work. Who or what set it up? And that is why I attempted to answer the question out that context. I understand the implications of that. My main questions are, where do the souls come from? There are twice as many people as there were 20-odd years ago. Do we get an upgraded animal soul? That might explain behaviour at football matches but how did it get started in the first place. Those are questions for which I do not have an answer. The best explanations I can come up is that the soul of man has developed over the course of earth development over eons of time. This is hypothesis put forth by Rudolf Steiner. It is the one that makes most sense to me, but certainly remains an open question. If there isn't a ready soul when you are born does a new one get made for you? Again, the best I can do is speculate. I don't know if the human soul comes together from different elements, including those from the plant, animal, and mineral worlds, but that would be my guess. And that it starts off rather primitive and works it's way up from there. Pure speculation on my part, drawing from different accounts I have read. Finally, how can we measure them? They must be measurable if they control what happens in our heads, or even just interact in some/any way. Well, I am not sure exactly what you mean, but yes, if a soul is the same as a causal body, or a subtle body of some sort, it would seem to me to be measurable, if we decide to look for it, and have some sort of instrumentation to do so. It always seems to me the essence of a poor theory is when it raises more questions than it answers. That isn't denial I'm just waiting to be convinced. Well, we are talking about things that are not easily measured, and we are not talking about the physical universe, so I think you are left with a lot of unresolved questions. Personally, that does not bother me. It requires a different kind of research. One that does not lend itself to scientific verification. On the other hand, I'm not exploring it to try to prove anything. Only for my own understanding. One of the major stories I know of like that is of a Scottish boy who said he came from an island where planes land on the beach. It turns out there is one, called Barra. His family claimed there was no way he could have known but even when they were being interviewed there was a TV on in the background. The most recent incident I recall is that of small child (American) recalling a memory of being a fighter pilot in WW2, IIRC. There didn't appear to be any mitigating factors such as the type you mention. Apart from the fact they live in a culture where WW2 is mentioned daily on TV. It's hard to be sure about things like this. But I have heard fascinating stories, you have to remember that they aren't studied by anyone objective, people might have their own reasons for blurring what happened with what they want to be true. It's a known problem with paranormal research that when faced with with something unexpected the imagination can run riot and people create all sorts of apparently convincing stories out of meagre data. It's the pattern recognition part of our minds that makes 1 + 1 sometimes equal 37. I'm all for getting scientific about things like this but they are extremely rare and so not easy to test. Basically you have to iron out the possibility of them picking the information up anywhere else. The plural of anecdote really isn't data, I've yet to see a story like this that has reliable facts that are certain not to have been isolated from the child. These stories appear in the mainstream media periodically, and there are also a number of instances that have been documented elsewhere. I am sorry I can't give you a reference for those. I am sure many of the stories are false, but enough of them seem able to survive the scrutiny to which they are subjected. And like a lot of beliefs
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
In the minds of a few on FFL, the only reason to defend a person (or group, or idea) that is being treated unfairly is that one fully supports that person (or group, or idea). Therefore, if one defends Maharishi or the TMO, one is ipso facto a cultist. If one defends theism, one is ipso facto a believer in God. IOW, there can be no basis for objecting to unfairness per se, on its own terms (whether deliberate, due to malice, or inadvertent, due to ignorance). One never, ever stands up for what one perceives to be right unless one has a personal investment in specifically protecting who/whatever is being wronged from unjust criticism or attack. This stance has the advantage of making ethical choices much easier: You don't have to worry about being unfair; you don't have to worry about dismissing without consideration arguments for whatever you're against. There's no reason ever to rethink your opposition on the basis of input from a different perspective, because such input is--again, on its face--always tainted by bias. (Not that perfect objectivity is ever possible, of course, but it's not necessary to evaluate degrees of objectivity.) The disadvantage of this stance is that sometimes you are confronted by serious cognitive dissonance--as in the case, for example, of a person who must be a cultist because they defend Maharishi from what they consider unfair attack, but who also is sharply critical of Maharishi for his philandering with his female followers. A corollary to all this is that there is no basis for anyone to take a devil's advocate position simply for the intellectual exercise. From Wikipedia: In common parlance http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Parlance, a devil's advocate is someone who, given a certain argument http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument, takes a position they do not necessarily agree with (or simply an alternative position from the accepted norm), for the sake of debate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/For_the_sake_of_argument or to explore the thought further. In taking this position, the individual taking on the devil's advocate role seeks to engage others in an argumentative discussion process. The purpose of such a process is typically to test the quality of the original argument and identify weaknesses in its structure, and to use such information to either improve or abandon the original, opposing position. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_advocate http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Devil%27s_advocate Just something to think about on a Monday morning... On 4/19/2014 6:09 PM, emilymaenot@... wrote: I just laugh at your obsession with using poor dead Fred as a baseball bat to hit Barry over the head with. Yes, it is funny - I use poor dead Fred as a baseball bat every time Barry uses poor dead Marshy as a baseball. LoL! At least Richard can admit to being a cultist, and to what triggers his use of cult tactics.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Um, that would be ...on a Sunday morning. (But you can think about it on Monday morning too if you choose. ;-) ) Just something to think about on a Monday morning...
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
At this point, I am not sure if you are making a declaration about this don't try to sell me anything, or you are pleading, even begging people to not try to sell you anything. Because its sort of become your calling card, and you play it more as a wild card, when anyone says something not in alignment with what you might happen to believe. At least you haven't invoked the feared DNR list in a while. I guess that's a relief. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. There are all sorts of people in the world who hang onto their beliefs, you included, but you always address your same old, same old viewpoints here as if FFL was crowded with people who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. These are imaginary people, Bawwy, people who you have made up in that coconut shell of yours. And certainly you do not have the the ability to challenge anyone's beliefs because there is not a soul here who takes you seriously enough to be effected. So, relax and turn on the tube. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not remember is the same experience as if it were never there. What is the need to fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to remember now and then. I would have to agree with you here, Xeno. I figure if I have been living in other bodies at other times or am destined to inhabit a body or bodies in the future the transparent thread that passes as something we know of as time is like a small curtain that is the transition between lifetimes and experiences. It is a continuum however you look at it, whether you are a cripple one moment of the belle of the ball the next. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Seems to me that knowledge of previous lives would be immensely useful, why do we forget it? Why do you think it would be so helpful? I think it could be counter productive. Putting it in an evolutionary context, the vast majority of people that ever lived were hunter gatherers. I think it would be highly useful to automatically know how to find water, how to avoid leopards etc. we are born as we are with minimal instincts and mental development (compared to other animals) because evolution favoured a more sophisticated culture which our brains need to learn from our parents. Any extra help would make this so much easier surely? That doesn't strike me as a very good hypothesis. I think a support network is already in place in terms of our survival skills when we are born because our community and family. That is how knowledge gets passed on. The past life theory holds that we are most likely to be born in a different time and a different place, so past life memories would be of limited value in that way. Nowadays, if evolution were known to be true we still had the skill and remembered everything we could bury a pot of cash and pick it up in our next life. Or get revenge on whoever it was that ran us over thus ending this one. You might say it just isn't set up to work like that but you'd just be multiplying entities beyond neccessity again. Occams razor. Anyway the burden of proof is always on the people with radical ideas so I'll wait until someone figures out a way of proving it. But not in denial though. I am not exactly sure what you are saying about entities, but if the past life theory is true, then there's either a flaw that we don't have recall of our previous lives, or there is just a benefit to starting off fresh. But if evolution is true, then each generation builds on the previous, so when you are reborn, you plug into the current progress. What is the point of carrying a lot of unnecessary (outdated) information. I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
. I've sat in lecture halls with a guest who jumped in her seat and exclaimed loudly, Oh my God, he's floating! when Rama did his thing, but who the next day claimed she'd seen nothing. In her case, it was because she was a TB TMer, and it so severely challenged her world view to have seen something that supposedly isn't possible outside the TM movement in a room in the L.A. Convention Center. So she just chose to forget ever having seen it. I've seen other people do the same thing without the TM indoctrination; they just couldn't get past having seen what they considered to be the laws of nature being violated in front of their eyes, so they just metaphorically closed their eyes and pretended later not to have seen it. After having admitted at the time that they *had* seen it, that is...given a night or two to think about what having seen it would do to their world, they chose not to have seen it. I think this would happen with pretty much any sure-fire proof you could think up. Those who wish to believe would believe, and those who wish not to believe would not. I mean, there are people on this planet who still believe firmly that humans have never set foot on the moon, and what could have *been* more real-time documented than that event? The funny thing from my point of view is that I suspect that viewing video of siddhis being performed wouldn't do diddleysquat for the people viewing it, *even if they believed it to be true*. The reason I feel this way is that there is an *energy* that accompanies the performance of siddhis, and I seriously doubt that this energy could be captured on video. The siddhi itself -- Big Whoop. Seen one, you've seen 'em all. But the *energy*?! THAT was transformative. Below I mentioned being blown out of the water in terms of having your current beliefs so challenged as to evaporate and go poof! Watching someone violate the supposed laws of gravity -- *in conjunction with that energy*, whatever it was -- was that kinda belief-challenging new start stuff, in spades. Unless you blot it out of your mind and pretend that you didn't see it (like the people I mentioned above), you're pretty much stuck with some serious Cognitive Dissonance for the rest of your life. The *easy path* is to pretend you didn't see it. The hard path is to accept that you really DID see it, even if you have no idea what it was. I saw what I saw, and experienced what I felt. I can't go back from that, and pretend that I didn't. I don't claim to know what those experiences were, but they were mine, and I own them. I don't try to sell them to others, but I own them. I'll spend the rest of my life trying to figure out what some of them were. But I can't feel badly about *any* of them, because they were a real E-ticket ride and they were transformative, and they gave me more new starts than I can count. From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start. Amen
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, anartaxius@... wrote : Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not remember is the same experience as if it were never there. What is the need to fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to remember now and then. Of course, day to day, certainly. But it's also nice to consider the who, where, and whys. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
My declaration is, essentially, What could *possibly* be dumber than arguing with people you've never met on the Internet? And the answer to this koan, of course, is, Arguing with people on the Internet about shit that can never *possibly* be resolved, such as belief in a God. :-) From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? At this point, I am not sure if you are making a declaration about this don't try to sell me anything, or you are pleading, even begging people to not try to sell you anything. Because its sort of become your calling card, and you play it more as a wild card, when anyone says something not in alignment with what you might happen to believe. At least you haven't invoked the feared DNR list in a while. I guess that's a relief. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : Putting it in an evolutionary context, the vast majority of people that ever lived were hunter gatherers. I think it would be highly useful to automatically know how to find water, how to avoid leopards etc. we are born as we are with minimal instincts and mental development (compared to other animals) because evolution favoured a more sophisticated culture which our brains need to learn from our parents. Any extra help would make this so much easier surely? That doesn't strike me as a very good hypothesis. I think a support network is already in place in terms of our survival skills when we are born because our community and family. That is how knowledge gets passed on. It's not a hypothesis, I'm not the one who believes it. I'm trying to disprove it by showing how it relies on convenient extra entities to function. And a support network is in place to train us in survival which passes on cultural knowledge, you aren't leaving much work for reincarnation to do! I'm an evolutionist, the first thing I do is try and work out how something arrived step-by-step, I'm at a loss with reincarnation. What does the theory say is the first animal to get the ability? What is the threshold in conscious beings before you do or don't. And given that all life was bacteria for most of Earth's history how the hell did it start in the first place. Or am I barking up the wrong tree completely? The past life theory holds that we are most likely to be born in a different time and a different place, so past life memories would be of limited value in that way. See what I mean about convenience? Why is it like that and not people being born nearby like our Scottish example was? Nowadays, if evolution were known to be true we still had the skill and remembered everything we could bury a pot of cash and pick it up in our next life. Or get revenge on whoever it was that ran us over thus ending this one. You might say it just isn't set up to work like that but you'd just be multiplying entities beyond neccessity again. Occams razor. Anyway the burden of proof is always on the people with radical ideas so I'll wait until someone figures out a way of proving it. But not in denial though. I am not exactly sure what you are saying about entities, but if the past life theory is true, then there's either a flaw that we don't have recall of our previous lives, or there is just a benefit to starting off fresh. But if evolution is true, then each generation builds on the previous, so when you are reborn, you plug into the current progress. What is the point of carrying a lot of unnecessary (outdated) information. Occams razor is what I mean. The theory of past lives seems to have a lot of components (entities) that seem to exist simply to make it harder to explain if you try and disprove it. This what I mean about a poor theory raising more questions than it answers, the world is a lot easier to explain without it. So what we both consider the proof is a breakdown of how it normally works? Interesting concept.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Did anyone ever run up to Rama and pass their hands underneath him when he was floating to make sure he wasn't tricking everyone in some fashion? On Sun, 4/20/14, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 12:08 PM Just to follow up, Salyavin, what would you feel constituted sure-fire proof of something like reincarnation, or siddhis being performed? I can speak to the latter somewhat, taking for example the siddhi of levitation. Video wouldn't do it, because 14-year-olds can hack video these days to make it look like whatever they want it to look like. Demos in front of large groups of people wouldn't cut it, because then the it must have been mass hallucination folks would come out with that doubt-dick swinging. One of the things I learned first from spending time with the Rama guy was that proof is overrated, as is the belief that it would mean anything to most people. I've sat in lecture halls with a guest who jumped in her seat and exclaimed loudly, Oh my God, he's floating! when Rama did his thing, but who the next day claimed she'd seen nothing. In her case, it was because she was a TB TMer, and it so severely challenged her world view to have seen something that supposedly isn't possible outside the TM movement in a room in the L.A. Convention Center. So she just chose to forget ever having seen it. I've seen other people do the same thing without the TM indoctrination; they just couldn't get past having seen what they considered to be the laws of nature being violated in front of their eyes, so they just metaphorically closed their eyes and pretended later not to have seen it. After having admitted at the time that they *had* seen it, that is...given a night or two to think about what having seen it would do to their world, they chose not to have seen it. I think this would happen with pretty much any sure-fire proof you could think up. Those who wish to believe would believe, and those who wish not to believe would not. I mean, there are people on this planet who still believe firmly that humans have never set foot on the moon, and what could have *been* more real-time documented than that event? The funny thing from my point of view is that I suspect that viewing video of siddhis being performed wouldn't do diddleysquat for the people viewing it, *even if they believed it to be true*. The reason I feel this way is that there is an *energy* that accompanies the performance of siddhis, and I seriously doubt that this energy could be captured on video. The siddhi itself -- Big Whoop. Seen one, you've seen 'em all. But the *energy*?! THAT was transformative. Below I mentioned being blown out of the water in terms of having your current beliefs so challenged as to evaporate and go poof! Watching someone violate the supposed laws of gravity -- *in conjunction with that energy*, whatever it was -- was that kinda belief-challenging new start stuff, in spades. Unless you blot it out of your mind and pretend that you didn't see it (like the people I mentioned above), you're pretty much stuck with some serious Cognitive Dissonance for the rest of your life. The *easy path* is to pretend you didn't see it. The hard path is to accept that you really DID see it, even if you have no idea what it was. I saw what I saw, and experienced what I felt. I can't go back from that, and pretend that I didn't. I don't claim to know what those experiences were, but they were mine, and I own them. I don't try to sell them to others, but I own them. I'll spend the rest of my life trying to figure out what some of them were. But I can't feel badly about *any* of them, because they were a real E-ticket ride and they were transformative, and they gave me more new starts than I can count. From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
But if you ascribe to certain models of theoretical physics that postulate that all events in the universe (or universes) happen simultaneously then you are not talking about the past at all, and the idea that Big Shot Marshy always espoused past is a lesser state of evolution goes out a south facing door. Add to that some metaphysical folks like Anita Moorjani who claim to have died and had just that all lives happening at once experience. On Sun, 4/20/14, anartax...@yahoo.com anartax...@yahoo.com wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 12:06 PM Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not remember is the same experience as if it were never there. What is the need to fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to remember now and then. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Well, as you know, there is an easy solution to both those things. But that still was pretty funny. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : My declaration is, essentially, What could *possibly* be dumber than arguing with people you've never met on the Internet? And the answer to this koan, of course, is, Arguing with people on the Internet about shit that can never *possibly* be resolved, such as belief in a God. :-) From: steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? At this point, I am not sure if you are making a declaration about this don't try to sell me anything, or you are pleading, even begging people to not try to sell you anything. Because its sort of become your calling card, and you play it more as a wild card, when anyone says something not in alignment with what you might happen to believe. At least you haven't invoked the feared DNR list in a while. I guess that's a relief. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
From: Michael Jackson mjackso...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 4:09 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? Did anyone ever run up to Rama and pass their hands underneath him when he was floating to make sure he wasn't tricking everyone in some fashion? Not that I ever saw. On Sun, 4/20/14, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 12:08 PM Just to follow up, Salyavin, what would you feel constituted sure-fire proof of something like reincarnation, or siddhis being performed? I can speak to the latter somewhat, taking for example the siddhi of levitation. Video wouldn't do it, because 14-year-olds can hack video these days to make it look like whatever they want it to look like. Demos in front of large groups of people wouldn't cut it, because then the it must have been mass hallucination folks would come out with that doubt-dick swinging. One of the things I learned first from spending time with the Rama guy was that proof is overrated, as is the belief that it would mean anything to most people. I've sat in lecture halls with a guest who jumped in her seat and exclaimed loudly, Oh my God, he's floating! when Rama did his thing, but who the next day claimed she'd seen nothing. In her case, it was because she was a TB TMer, and it so severely challenged her world view to have seen something that supposedly isn't possible outside the TM movement in a room in the L.A. Convention Center. So she just chose to forget ever having seen it. I've seen other people do the same thing without the TM indoctrination; they just couldn't get past having seen what they considered to be the laws of nature being violated in front of their eyes, so they just metaphorically closed their eyes and pretended later not to have seen it. After having admitted at the time that they *had* seen it, that is...given a night or two to think about what having seen it would do to their world, they chose not to have seen it. I think this would happen with pretty much any sure-fire proof you could think up. Those who wish to believe would believe, and those who wish not to believe would not. I mean, there are people on this planet who still believe firmly that humans have never set foot on the moon, and what could have *been* more real-time documented than that event? The funny thing from my point of view is that I suspect that viewing video of siddhis being performed wouldn't do diddleysquat for the people viewing it, *even if they believed it to be true*. The reason I feel this way is that there is an *energy* that accompanies the performance of siddhis, and I seriously doubt that this energy could be captured on video. The siddhi itself -- Big Whoop. Seen one, you've seen 'em all. But the *energy*?! THAT was transformative. Below I mentioned being blown out of the water in terms of having your current beliefs so challenged as to evaporate and go poof! Watching someone violate the supposed laws of gravity -- *in conjunction with that energy*, whatever it was -- was that kinda belief-challenging new start stuff, in spades. Unless you blot it out of your mind and pretend that you didn't see it (like the people I mentioned above), you're pretty much stuck with some serious Cognitive Dissonance for the rest of your life. The *easy path* is to pretend you didn't see it. The hard path is to accept that you really DID see it, even if you have no idea what it was. I saw what I saw, and experienced what I felt. I can't go back from that, and pretend that I didn't. I don't claim to know what those experiences were, but they were mine, and I own them. I don't try to sell them to others, but I own them. I'll spend the rest of my life trying to figure out what some of them were. But I can't feel badly about *any* of them, because they were a real E-ticket ride and they were transformative, and they gave me more new starts than I can count. From: TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Excellent post, Salyavin. FWIW, this is what I mean when I say I don't rule something out: Can minds affect and influence each other at a distance? I still actually keep an open mind to it, but I don't believe it. Also: Regarding proof, I think it doesn't matter whether everyone accepts it or not, as long as it stands up in court, or makes a case no reasonable person could refute. Important point. It isn't as if nobody has ever accepted what they had thought was impossible. The idea that the earth wasn't the center of the universe after all blew many minds and caused enormous outrage when it was first proposed, but eventually the evidence was enough to outweigh the skepticism almost universally. science only works if something is repeatable, reading about someone's experience and passing it off as something we already understand is fraught with obvious dangers, but is a good place to start the planning on how to test it for real. One reason I don't rule paranormal stuff out is that I'm not convinced science knows how to test for some of it. I could not possibly disagree more strongly with the notion that only what is measurable is real. Actually, measuring (in the broadest sense) is the only tool science has. As one philosophy blogger ;-) has noted (in the context of theism specifically, but it applies here as well): Just as the success of metal detectors in finding metal does not entail that there are no other, non-metallic aspects of reality, so too does the success of science in capturing those aspects of nature susceptible of prediction and control give us no reason to think that there are not other aspects that are not susceptible of prediction and control -- aspects we should not expect to find by the methods of science http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/03/rosenhouse-keeps-digging.html#more http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/03/rosenhouse-keeps-digging.html#more Are there methods of investigation other than measurement/prediction/control that might convincingly detect paranormal events? Some paranormal researchers (Lawrence Le Shan in particular) have suggested potentially fruitful systematic, social-science-like approaches. See Le Shan's book A New Science of the Paranormal: the Promise of Psychical Research for details.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : Putting it in an evolutionary context, the vast majority of people that ever lived were hunter gatherers. I think it would be highly useful to automatically know how to find water, how to avoid leopards etc. we are born as we are with minimal instincts and mental development (compared to other animals) because evolution favoured a more sophisticated culture which our brains need to learn from our parents. Any extra help would make this so much easier surely? That doesn't strike me as a very good hypothesis. I think a support network is already in place in terms of our survival skills when we are born because our community and family. That is how knowledge gets passed on. It's not a hypothesis, I'm not the one who believes it. I'm trying to disprove it by showing how it relies on convenient extra entities to function. For some reason, I am still not clear on the extra entities. The theory of reincarnation would be that we get reborn with tendencies that can possibly be adapted for benefit into our new environment. The skills that we had previously acquired may no longer be useful or necessary. And a support network is in place to train us in survival which passes on cultural knowledge, you aren't leaving much work for reincarnation to do! There is always room for further progress right? New challenges arise, earth conditions change all of which will require new skills, right? Well maybe that's not the goal of rebirth. Survival, certainly is a necessity, but perhaps a more important goal is to gain knowledge of both a material and spiritual sort. And maybe the two go hand in hand. I'm an evolutionist, the first thing I do is try and work out how something arrived step-by-step, I'm at a loss with reincarnation. What does the theory say is the first animal to get the ability? What is the threshold in conscious beings before you do or don't. And given that all life was bacteria for most of Earth's history how the hell did it start in the first place. Or am I barking up the wrong tree completely? I don't know how life started. Okay, all I can come up with is that there was a spark of some sort. I am inclined to think that the human development was on a different track than say the extension or evolution of bacteria. Again, the accounts I've read indicate human kind developed from an ethereal form around the time earth was formed and went from there. It is mystery I am clueless about. But as for developing skills, my best guess that it occurs over tens of thousands, or hundred of thousands of years. I don't see where there would be in conflict the theory of reincarnation. The past life theory holds that we are most likely to be born in a different time and a different place, so past life memories would be of limited value in that way. See what I mean about convenience? Why is it like that and not people being born nearby like our Scottish example was? I think if you will look at the examples as a whole, you will find that it works both ways. I don't know if Michael would have any insights along these lines, but I have read some accounts of people born in the south having strong memories of being in the civil war. So, if one wanted to speculate, I'd say there are no hard and fast rules about it. Nowadays, if evolution were known to be true we still had the skill and remembered everything we could bury a pot of cash and pick it up in our next life. Or get revenge on whoever it was that ran us over thus ending this one. You might say it just isn't set up to work like that but you'd just be multiplying entities beyond neccessity again. Occams razor. Anyway the burden of proof is always on the people with radical ideas so I'll wait until someone figures out a way of proving it. But not in denial though. I am not exactly sure what you are saying about entities, but if the past life theory is true, then there's either a flaw that we don't have recall of our previous lives, or there is just a benefit to starting off fresh. But if evolution is true, then each generation builds on the previous, so when you are reborn, you plug into the current progress. What is the point of carrying a lot of unnecessary (outdated) information. Occams razor is what I mean. The theory of past lives seems to have a lot of components (entities) that seem to exist simply to make it harder to explain if you try and disprove it. This what I mean about a poor theory raising more questions than it answers, the world is a lot easier to explain without it. Okay, thank you for clarifying entities. I guess we look at the same data or world, and come to different conclusions. I have a hard time making sense of things without bringing in reincarnation. Perhaps because I also believe in the notion of karma, and that karma must somehow get
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
I once read about a study in which a large number of subjects (at least a thousand) were hypnotically regressed to past lives. Only a handful, apparently, remembered lives in identifiably historical times. The great majority recalled lives as brown-skinned people working in the fields. (A little later than hunter-gatherers, but close enough.) Putting it in an evolutionary context, the vast majority of people that ever lived were hunter gatherers.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/20/2014 5:05 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. So, Barry is a True Believer, without a shred of evidence of reincarnation. So much for his science articles. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, mjackson74@... wrote : Did anyone ever run up to Rama and pass their hands underneath him when he was floating to make sure he wasn't tricking everyone in some fashion? I think we can safely assume that no one did that MJ. First of all, it would be disrespectful to indicate one would doubt this levitation would happen and second the vibes were so far out no one would have been able to get out of their seat. It was all about the energy, man. On Sun, 4/20/14, TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com; FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Sunday, April 20, 2014, 12:08 PM Just to follow up, Salyavin, what would you feel constituted sure-fire proof of something like reincarnation, or siddhis being performed? I can speak to the latter somewhat, taking for example the siddhi of levitation. Video wouldn't do it, because 14-year-olds can hack video these days to make it look like whatever they want it to look like. Demos in front of large groups of people wouldn't cut it, because then the it must have been mass hallucination folks would come out with that doubt-dick swinging. One of the things I learned first from spending time with the Rama guy was that proof is overrated, as is the belief that it would mean anything to most people. I've sat in lecture halls with a guest who jumped in her seat and exclaimed loudly, Oh my God, he's floating! when Rama did his thing, but who the next day claimed she'd seen nothing. In her case, it was because she was a TB TMer, and it so severely challenged her world view to have seen something that supposedly isn't possible outside the TM movement in a room in the L.A. Convention Center. So she just chose to forget ever having seen it. I've seen other people do the same thing without the TM indoctrination; they just couldn't get past having seen what they considered to be the laws of nature being violated in front of their eyes, so they just metaphorically closed their eyes and pretended later not to have seen it. After having admitted at the time that they *had* seen it, that is...given a night or two to think about what having seen it would do to their world, they chose not to have seen it. I think this would happen with pretty much any sure-fire proof you could think up. Those who wish to believe would believe, and those who wish not to believe would not. I mean, there are people on this planet who still believe firmly that humans have never set foot on the moon, and what could have *been* more real-time documented than that event? The funny thing from my point of view is that I suspect that viewing video of siddhis being performed wouldn't do diddleysquat for the people viewing it, *even if they believed it to be true*. The reason I feel this way is that there is an *energy* that accompanies the performance of siddhis, and I seriously doubt that this energy could be captured on video. The siddhi itself -- Big Whoop. Seen one, you've seen 'em all. But the *energy*?! THAT was transformative. Below I mentioned being blown out of the water in terms of having your current beliefs so challenged as to evaporate and go poof! Watching someone violate the supposed laws of gravity -- *in conjunction with that energy*, whatever it was -- was that kinda belief-challenging new start stuff, in spades. Unless you blot it out of your mind and pretend that you didn't see it (like the people I mentioned above), you're pretty much stuck with some serious Cognitive Dissonance for the rest of your life. The *easy path* is to pretend you didn't see it. The hard path is to accept that you really DID see it, even if you have no idea what it was. I saw what I saw, and experienced what I felt. I can't go back from that, and pretend that I didn't. I don't claim to know what those experiences were, but they were mine, and I own them. I don't try to sell them to others, but I own them. I'll spend the rest of my life trying to figure out what some of them were. But I can't feel badly about *any* of them, because they were a real E-ticket ride and they were transformative, and they gave me more new starts than I can count. From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... mailto:turquoiseb@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com; FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com mailto:FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com mailto:no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/20/2014 6:32 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start. I think that's called doing a 180. It probably started in about 1996 or 1997, about the time you got challenged by Judy and Andrew. It could have started before then, back when you got kicked out of the cult, but you still had lots of beliefs after that, even proclaiming yourself a Buddhist over on alt.religion.gnostic. It's good that you enjoy getting waxed all the time, but at some point it seems to become just an exercise in self-punishment. It looks like Judy really got to you. These days, if Judy is for it, you're against it. So, it's not strictly a case of you being challenged on your beliefs. It looks like Judy hurt you so bad you're now going into total denial. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/20/2014 7:06 AM, anartax...@yahoo.com wrote: Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not remember is the same experience as if it were never there. What is the need to fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to remember now and then. So, I wonder why it is that Barry and Fred only remember the good parts of their past lives - about being a high lama or master of the temple? Maybe their past lives were so blessed that it's natural to remember the good times - but what about all the times they were menial servants or slaves to the emperor, or dogs? And, why, if Barry had been a master of the temple, would he be reborn as a lowly scribe in the nether lands this time around? Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
turq, I find some parts of these discussions very enjoyable. If I make a point that makes sense to me, but then someone makes an opposite point that also makes sense to me, it's as if my brain stretches or something. That's quite wonderful actually even if the topic could never be resolved. Actually I don't think we can have 100% certainty about anything! On Sunday, April 20, 2014 8:52 AM, TurquoiseBee turquoi...@yahoo.com wrote: My declaration is, essentially, What could *possibly* be dumber than arguing with people you've never met on the Internet? And the answer to this koan, of course, is, Arguing with people on the Internet about shit that can never *possibly* be resolved, such as belief in a God. :-) From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 3:22 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? At this point, I am not sure if you are making a declaration about this don't try to sell me anything, or you are pleading, even begging people to not try to sell you anything. Because its sort of become your calling card, and you play it more as a wild card, when anyone says something not in alignment with what you might happen to believe. At least you haven't invoked the feared DNR list in a while. I guess that's a relief. (-: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
What you say makes sense to me, Xeno. OTOH another way I could say it is that there are times when physically I feel more settled energy wise. That tends to be when I feel deep. On Sunday, April 20, 2014 7:38 AM, anartax...@yahoo.com anartax...@yahoo.com wrote: Share, the surface and the depth are same, the mind conceptualises the depth, that is the illusion. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, sharelong60@... wrote : Xeno, I think and have experienced that the deep now is not limited to the surface now. I think it contains past and future and can be accessed depending on the clarity of one's nervous system, etc. On Sunday, April 20, 2014 7:06 AM, anartaxius@... anartaxius@... wrote: Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not remember is the same experience as if it were never there. What is the need to fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to remember now and then. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given the unpredictability and rarity of the phenomenon, not to mention it being potentially unfair on a three year old. I always look for the ways in which things can't work but remain curious as it's one of those things that I'd take to be sure-fire proof that we don't know anything about what's going on here at all. And that would be cool indeed. Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. I've had things I had believed in blown out of the water so many times that I've actually come to enjoy it. Forget being reborn -- having to drop whatever you believed in before and start all over again is the real new start.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/20/2014 8:34 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote: Indeed. I simply cannot comprehend those who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. There are all sorts of people in the world who hang onto their beliefs, you included, but you always address your same old, same old viewpoints here as if FFL was crowded with people who feel threatened when something challenges their beliefs. These are imaginary people, Bawwy, people who you have made up in that coconut shell of yours. And certainly you do not have the the ability to challenge anyone's beliefs because there is not a soul here who takes you seriously enough to be effected. So, relax and turn on the tube. In the Rama cult, there are those that believe Fred Lenz was The Last Incarnation of Lord Vishnu. I wouldn't be surprised if Barry has that belief even now. If Rama could levitate up off the stage and up into the sky in a lecture hall full of golden light, he would be God, he could be The Last Incarnation of Lord Vishnu. If Rama could levitate, he would not be just another guy who could do cool things with light. No other guy that I know of, other that Jesus Christ, could levitate up into the sky in a blaze of light. Anyone who believes this could have happened hundreds of times is a */True Believer/* and is probably */brain-washed/* too, after being in a */trance-induction state/* for thirty years. Or, you could say that anyone posting Rama levitation claims is highly */suggestible/* to say the least! Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/20/2014 8:37 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote: Anything one pulls out of memory is past, is past life. Anything one does not remember is the same experience as if it were never there. What is the need to fine tune what 'sort' of memory it is? Life is now, though it is nice to remember now and then. I would have to agree with you here, Xeno. I figure if I have been living in other bodies at other times or am destined to inhabit a body or bodies in the future the transparent thread that passes as something we know of as time is like a small curtain that is the transition between lifetimes and experiences. It is a continuum however you look at it, whether you are a cripple one moment of the belle of the ball the next. For the record, I believe in rebirth, but not in reincarnation. Since there is no person to begin with, there could not be a soul that passes into another body at death. According to my belief, there is no individual soul or soul-monad. If there were, there would be trillions of souls out there since the beginning of time, which just doesn't sound reasonable. However, if consciousness is the ultimate reality, then I believe that it is the stream of consciousness that gets reborn, not an individual soul or person. I base this belief on the fact of there being a collective character of knowing: we are all aware that we are conscious. There is only one consciousness that we all share in common and there is a great store-house of experiences that we all draw from. That's what I believe. And, I believe in karma, the law of cause and effect. I believe that all human excrement always flows downstream, without exception. Gravity sucks. There is a causal relation between objects of perception - there is causation. A billiard ball when struck will move; if not, it will remain in place. I base my belief in karma on observation, verbal testimony, and inference. I observe that when there is smoke, there is usually a fire; whatever goes up must come down. That's what I think. The question: is there are a moral reciprocity? I believe in life; what it does to you and what you do back. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
video these days to make it look like whatever they want it to look like. Demos in front of large groups of people wouldn't cut it, because then the it must have been mass hallucination folks would come out with that doubt-dick swinging. One of the things I learned first from spending time with the Rama guy was that proof is overrated, as is the belief that it would mean anything to most people. I've sat in lecture halls with a guest who jumped in her seat and exclaimed loudly, Oh my God, he's floating! when Rama did his thing, but who the next day claimed she'd seen nothing. In her case, it was because she was a TB TMer, and it so severely challenged her world view to have seen something that supposedly isn't possible outside the TM movement in a room in the L.A. Convention Center. So she just chose to forget ever having seen it. I've seen other people do the same thing without the TM indoctrination; they just couldn't get past having seen what they considered to be the laws of nature being violated in front of their eyes, so they just metaphorically closed their eyes and pretended later not to have seen it. After having admitted at the time that they *had* seen it, that is...given a night or two to think about what having seen it would do to their world, they chose not to have seen it. I think this would happen with pretty much any sure-fire proof you could think up. Those who wish to believe would believe, and those who wish not to believe would not. I mean, there are people on this planet who still believe firmly that humans have never set foot on the moon, and what could have *been* more real-time documented than that event? The funny thing from my point of view is that I suspect that viewing video of siddhis being performed wouldn't do diddleysquat for the people viewing it, *even if they believed it to be true*. The reason I feel this way is that there is an *energy* that accompanies the performance of siddhis, and I seriously doubt that this energy could be captured on video. The siddhi itself -- Big Whoop. Seen one, you've seen 'em all. But the *energy*?! THAT was transformative. Below I mentioned being blown out of the water in terms of having your current beliefs so challenged as to evaporate and go poof! Watching someone violate the supposed laws of gravity -- *in conjunction with that energy*, whatever it was -- was that kinda belief-challenging new start stuff, in spades. Unless you blot it out of your mind and pretend that you didn't see it (like the people I mentioned above), you're pretty much stuck with some serious Cognitive Dissonance for the rest of your life. The *easy path* is to pretend you didn't see it. The hard path is to accept that you really DID see it, even if you have no idea what it was. I saw what I saw, and experienced what I felt. I can't go back from that, and pretend that I didn't. I don't claim to know what those experiences were, but they were mine, and I own them. I don't try to sell them to others, but I own them. I'll spend the rest of my life trying to figure out what some of them were. But I can't feel badly about *any* of them, because they were a real E-ticket ride and they were transformative, and they gave me more new starts than I can count. From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very oddly when they took him into what he thought was his house. It was quite upsetting to watch. I can see why anyone would have a job doubting his story. Lots of people wanted to get all James Randi on it and that would probably be impossible given
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
, Salyavin, what would you feel constituted sure-fire proof of something like reincarnation, or siddhis being performed? I can speak to the latter somewhat, taking for example the siddhi of levitation. Video wouldn't do it, because 14-year-olds can hack video these days to make it look like whatever they want it to look like. Demos in front of large groups of people wouldn't cut it, because then the it must have been mass hallucination folks would come out with that doubt-dick swinging. One of the things I learned first from spending time with the Rama guy was that proof is overrated, as is the belief that it would mean anything to most people. I've sat in lecture halls with a guest who jumped in her seat and exclaimed loudly, Oh my God, he's floating! when Rama did his thing, but who the next day claimed she'd seen nothing. In her case, it was because she was a TB TMer, and it so severely challenged her world view to have seen something that supposedly isn't possible outside the TM movement in a room in the L.A. Convention Center. So she just chose to forget ever having seen it. I've seen other people do the same thing without the TM indoctrination; they just couldn't get past having seen what they considered to be the laws of nature being violated in front of their eyes, so they just metaphorically closed their eyes and pretended later not to have seen it. After having admitted at the time that they *had* seen it, that is...given a night or two to think about what having seen it would do to their world, they chose not to have seen it. I think this would happen with pretty much any sure-fire proof you could think up. Those who wish to believe would believe, and those who wish not to believe would not. I mean, there are people on this planet who still believe firmly that humans have never set foot on the moon, and what could have *been* more real-time documented than that event? The funny thing from my point of view is that I suspect that viewing video of siddhis being performed wouldn't do diddleysquat for the people viewing it, *even if they believed it to be true*. The reason I feel this way is that there is an *energy* that accompanies the performance of siddhis, and I seriously doubt that this energy could be captured on video. The siddhi itself -- Big Whoop. Seen one, you've seen 'em all. But the *energy*?! THAT was transformative. Below I mentioned being blown out of the water in terms of having your current beliefs so challenged as to evaporate and go poof! Watching someone violate the supposed laws of gravity -- *in conjunction with that energy*, whatever it was -- was that kinda belief-challenging new start stuff, in spades. Unless you blot it out of your mind and pretend that you didn't see it (like the people I mentioned above), you're pretty much stuck with some serious Cognitive Dissonance for the rest of your life. The *easy path* is to pretend you didn't see it. The hard path is to accept that you really DID see it, even if you have no idea what it was. I saw what I saw, and experienced what I felt. I can't go back from that, and pretend that I didn't. I don't claim to know what those experiences were, but they were mine, and I own them. I don't try to sell them to others, but I own them. I'll spend the rest of my life trying to figure out what some of them were. But I can't feel badly about *any* of them, because they were a real E-ticket ride and they were transformative, and they gave me more new starts than I can count. From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else or feel the need to defend it. IT'S JUST A BELIEF. I think the world would be a better place if more people felt similarly about their beliefs. :-) I have no real sympathy for it but the stories of the children that do remember things are fascinating. The Scottish boy who thought he lived on an island was taken there and behaved very
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : One reason I don't rule paranormal stuff out is that I'm not convinced science knows how to test for some of it. I could not possibly disagree more strongly with the notion that only what is measurable is real. Actually, measuring (in the broadest sense) is the only tool science has. Only? Find me something that can't be measured. And measuring can include things that may be invisible in every way but are necessary for something else to exist. Maybe we just haven't thought of ways to test everything? As one philosophy blogger ;-) has noted (in the context of theism specifically, but it applies here as well): Oh no. Just as the success of metal detectors in finding metal does not entail that there are no other, non-metallic aspects of reality, so too does the success of science in capturing those aspects of nature susceptible of prediction and control give us no reason to think that there are not other aspects that are not susceptible of prediction and control -- aspects we should not expect to find by the methods of science Sounds like special pleading to me. Sounds like he's got something he wants people not to be able to find. Probably why he thinks science has no place answering metaphysical questions (if that was him). What he has to do to convince me is explain what this thing is and how it can be apart from the four known forces of nature. If it's real in any sense we'll find it somehow. http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/03/rosenhouse-keeps-digging.html#more http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/03/rosenhouse-keeps-digging.html#more Are there methods of investigation other than measurement/prediction/control that might convincingly detect paranormal events? How would you know if you had or not? Some paranormal researchers (Lawrence Le Shan in particular) have suggested potentially fruitful systematic, social-science-like approaches. See Le Shan's book A New Science of the Paranormal: the Promise of Psychical Research for details. OK, if it's orderable from my local library I'll read it.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Comments below... One reason I don't rule paranormal stuff out is that I'm not convinced science knows how to test for some of it. I could not possibly disagree more strongly with the notion that only what is measurable is real. Actually, measuring (in the broadest sense) is the only tool science has. Only? Find me something that can't be measured. Oh, you know, beauty, love, stuff like that, just for starters. And measuring can include things that may be invisible in every way but are necessary for something else to exist. Maybe we just haven't thought of ways to test everything? Well, that's kinda what I was saying: I'm not convinced science knows how to test for some paranormal stuff. As one philosophy blogger ;-) has noted (in the context of theism specifically, but it applies here as well): Oh no. Just as the success of metal detectors in finding metal does not entail that there are no other, non-metallic aspects of reality, so too does the success of science in capturing those aspects of nature susceptible of prediction and control give us no reason to think that there are not other aspects that are not susceptible of prediction and control -- aspects we should not expect to find by the methods of science Sounds like special pleading to me. Sounds like he's got something he wants people not to be able to find. Probably why he thinks science has no place answering metaphysical questions (if that was him). It was Feser, but gee whiz, he's far from the only person to make the same point, including some scientists and (gasp) atheists. (What would Feser not want people to find??) The point applies in many different contexts, not just theism. What he has to do to convince me is explain what this thing is and how it can be apart from the four known forces of nature. If it's real in any sense we'll find it somehow. http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/03/rosenhouse-keeps-digging.html#more http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/03/rosenhouse-keeps-digging.html#more Are there methods of investigation other than measurement/prediction/control that might convincingly detect paranormal events? How would you know if you had or not? Some paranormal researchers (Lawrence Le Shan in particular) have suggested potentially fruitful systematic, social-science-like approaches. See Le Shan's book A New Science of the Paranormal: the Promise of Psychical Research for details. OK, if it's orderable from my local library I'll read it. If you can get it, let me know what you think. It's been awhile since I read it. (He has a new one out, Landscapes of the Mind: The Faces of Reality, which purports to be a taxonomy of consciousness, whatever that means.)
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, authfriend@... wrote : Comments below... One reason I don't rule paranormal stuff out is that I'm not convinced science knows how to test for some of it. I could not possibly disagree more strongly with the notion that only what is measurable is real. Actually, measuring (in the broadest sense) is the only tool science has. Only? Find me something that can't be measured. Oh, you know, beauty, love, stuff like that, just for starters. But love isn't a thing separate from our experience. If two people in love are sitting on a bench in the sun and the people disappear, so does the love. The sun however, doesn't disappear. But it is measurable. Love is part of our inner world only and is therefore dependent on our brains and this is where it can be measured. Maybe crudely at the moment but I bet there's a distinct chemical signature involving dopamine etc that you could look at in someone's head and know what they are experiencing. Takes the fun out of romance sure, but it's them chemicals what turn us upside down I bet. Beauty could be measurable too, you'd just have to decide on a common framework for whatever it is you want to judge. It's all part of out inner life. Why we feel such richness for things like art or landscapes is another question but one of psychology and chemistry not physics, that won't be able to help us tell love from hate. Just as the success of metal detectors in finding metal does not entail that there are no other, non-metallic aspects of reality, so too does the success of science in capturing those aspects of nature susceptible of prediction and control give us no reason to think that there are not other aspects that are not susceptible of prediction and control -- aspects we should not expect to find by the methods of science Sounds like special pleading to me. Sounds like he's got something he wants people not to be able to find. Probably why he thinks science has no place answering metaphysical questions (if that was him). It was Feser, but gee whiz, he's far from the only person to make the same point, including some scientists and (gasp) atheists. (What would Feser not want people to find??) The point applies in many different contexts, not just theism. Including me, but I'm not the one with a theistic concept I'm trying to convince the world of that I think is superior to the current scientific paradigm. And besides, his blog is where you got the idea about metaphysical concepts not being open to scientific inquiry wasn't it? If it was he was wrong. NASA won't abandon it's plans to probe the cosmic microwave background because the overall concept of universal origins is metaphysical. What he (or anyone) has to do to convince me is explain what this god thing is and, most importantly, how it can be apart from the four known forces of nature. If it's real in any sense we'll find it somehow. Even if it's a real thing like love. http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/03/rosenhouse-keeps-digging.html#more http://edwardfeser.blogspot.com/2013/03/rosenhouse-keeps-digging.html#more Are there methods of investigation other than measurement/prediction/control that might convincingly detect paranormal events? How would you know if you had or not? Some paranormal researchers (Lawrence Le Shan in particular) have suggested potentially fruitful systematic, social-science-like approaches. See Le Shan's book A New Science of the Paranormal: the Promise of Psychical Research for details. OK, if it's orderable from my local library I'll read it. If you can get it, let me know what you think. It's been awhile since I read it. (He has a new one out, Landscapes of the Mind: The Faces of Reality, which purports to be a taxonomy of consciousness, whatever that means.) It's not but I read the first page on Amazon and might give it a try anyway.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/20/2014 9:09 AM, Michael Jackson wrote: Did anyone ever run up to Rama and pass their hands underneath him when he was floating to make sure he wasn't tricking everyone in some fashion? Apparently some people did attempt to do this, but they were kept off the stage by Barry, who was guarding the door. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/20/2014 9:20 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: Did anyone ever run up to Rama and pass their hands underneath him when he was floating to make sure he wasn't tricking everyone in some fashion? Not that I ever saw. According to what I've read, it was just pandemonium! Apparently it was very difficult to see because of all the smoke. And, anyway how could anyone check for wires or support levers when Rama had levitated from the desert floor to the top of the mountain? At one point Rama said he was going to send his double up to the mountain peak. As I watched, I saw him start bouncing back and forth between the desert floor and the mountaintop. Desert Experiences With Rama: http://www.meditationclub.com/LastIncarnation.pdf --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/20/2014 7:08 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: I saw what I saw, and experienced what I felt. I can't go back from that, and pretend that I didn't. Or, you could just admit that you were in a trance-induction state and you had been hypnotized by a cult leader who brain-washed you into believing that you saw Fred hover in space with no visible means of physical support. And, then get some professional help. These are the kinds of stories that would lead almost any reasonable person to think that you're a highly suggestible type, to say the least. As for Fred, most professionals think he had delusions of grandeur - and was a clear case of narcissism. Anyone would be very gullible to pay Fred thousands and thousands of dollars to see a phony stage show or a desert mirage at night. Most people after thirty years wouldn't even admit that they ever believed such nonsense. It's very difficult to believe you're actually writing science articles these days. If what you say is true, Fred was God and walked on air and water. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/20/2014 7:41 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: Interestingly, I have no problem with this at all. That's what my waking-state flashbacks were like. To call them past life flashbacks is to do them a real disservice, because that's not what they were like at all. It was more as if I were viewing an alternative timeline, congruent with the present, and just as real. It was like being in the same body but having clicked the remote control accidentally and now seeing the same scene in a different when. Now this is REALLY funny! This sounds almost like John Heglein's quantum string theory - flipped SU(5), unified field superstring theory, a theory of everything. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/19/2014 11:57 PM, TurquoiseBee wrote: On 4/19/2014 6:09 PM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote: I just laugh at your obsession with using poor dead Fred as a baseball bat to hit Barry over the head with. Yes, it is funny - I use poor dead Fred as a baseball bat every time Barry uses poor dead Marshy as a baseball. LoL! At least Richard can admit to being a cultist, and to what triggers his use of cult tactics. For the record, it was Barry that was in a cult, not Richard. So, we should be thanking Barry for alerting us to the dangers of cults and cult participation. Now we know what cults can do to people and what people might do if they are in a trance-induction state. Sometimes people can even get brain-washed into believing strange things like levitation and other stuff. People that are highly suggestible can be easily coerced into working for the cult and giving money to the cult leader - printing up posters and flyers at their own expense and renting lecture halls for stage shows. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
the planning on how to test it for real.Just wish I was there, I haven't had my beliefs challenged seriously for a long time. I have had proper weird shit happen but I was usually on LSD so that isn't going to be a good start for convincing most people! ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Just to follow up, Salyavin, what would you feel constituted sure-fire proof of something like reincarnation, or siddhis being performed? I can speak to the latter somewhat, taking for example the siddhi of levitation. Video wouldn't do it, because 14-year-olds can hack video these days to make it look like whatever they want it to look like. Demos in front of large groups of people wouldn't cut it, because then the it must have been mass hallucination folks would come out with that doubt-dick swinging. One of the things I learned first from spending time with the Rama guy was that proof is overrated, as is the belief that it would mean anything to most people. I've sat in lecture halls with a guest who jumped in her seat and exclaimed loudly, Oh my God, he's floating! when Rama did his thing, but who the next day claimed she'd seen nothing. In her case, it was because she was a TB TMer, and it so severely challenged her world view to have seen something that supposedly isn't possible outside the TM movement in a room in the L.A. Convention Center. So she just chose to forget ever having seen it. I've seen other people do the same thing without the TM indoctrination; they just couldn't get past having seen what they considered to be the laws of nature being violated in front of their eyes, so they just metaphorically closed their eyes and pretended later not to have seen it. After having admitted at the time that they *had* seen it, that is...given a night or two to think about what having seen it would do to their world, they chose not to have seen it. I think this would happen with pretty much any sure-fire proof you could think up. Those who wish to believe would believe, and those who wish not to believe would not. I mean, there are people on this planet who still believe firmly that humans have never set foot on the moon, and what could have *been* more real-time documented than that event? The funny thing from my point of view is that I suspect that viewing video of siddhis being performed wouldn't do diddleysquat for the people viewing it, *even if they believed it to be true*. The reason I feel this way is that there is an *energy* that accompanies the performance of siddhis, and I seriously doubt that this energy could be captured on video. The siddhi itself -- Big Whoop. Seen one, you've seen 'em all. But the *energy*?! THAT was transformative. Below I mentioned being blown out of the water in terms of having your current beliefs so challenged as to evaporate and go poof! Watching someone violate the supposed laws of gravity -- *in conjunction with that energy*, whatever it was -- was that kinda belief-challenging new start stuff, in spades. Unless you blot it out of your mind and pretend that you didn't see it (like the people I mentioned above), you're pretty much stuck with some serious Cognitive Dissonance for the rest of your life. The *easy path* is to pretend you didn't see it. The hard path is to accept that you really DID see it, even if you have no idea what it was. I saw what I saw, and experienced what I felt. I can't go back from that, and pretend that I didn't. I don't claim to know what those experiences were, but they were mine, and I own them. I don't try to sell them to others, but I own them. I'll spend the rest of my life trying to figure out what some of them were. But I can't feel badly about *any* of them, because they were a real E-ticket ride and they were transformative, and they gave me more new starts than I can count. From: TurquoiseBee turquoiseb@... To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:32 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? From: salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Sent: Sunday, April 20, 2014 1:24 PM Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : Even though I happen to suspect that there may be something to the reincarnation thang, I see no need to provide proof of it because it's just a belief, and I don't much give a shit what others believe about my beliefs. As I've stated here several times, I won't know whether it's an accurate belief until I kick the bucket, and if the folks who believe that we just wink out like a light bulb turned off are right, I won't even be around to be disappointed. So I figure mine is a no down sides belief. That said, I would never presume to try to sell it to anyone else
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
From: steve.sun...@yahoo.com steve.sun...@yahoo.com ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : The concept of a God *complicates* things, rather than simplifying them. That would be fine with me. I am trying to go about understanding things, like most of us. And for me, I've come to the conclusion that there is a higher power at work, even if there is much I don't understand about it. And I have come to the opposite conclusion. End of story. It would seem that there is nothing further to discuss, unless you feel the need to try to convert me to your conclusion. Me, I feel no such need. Believe whatever you want. Barry, it is you who have lost your edge. You would be well advised not to bring up subjects or issues that you are unwilling, or unable to follow through with. With all due respect, Steve, you seem to have been infected with JudyRobinitis, and expect me to argue with you just because you want to argue. I posted what I had to say, you had the opportunity to post what you had to say in response, and you did so. I even answered once. I don't see that I owe you anything more as follow up, just because you want to turn it into some mock debate that you feel you can win. If you have more to say, say it. The fact that you weren't able to put everything you wanted to say into your first reply post does not obligate me to get involved in a longer series of posts with you. Frankly, whenever someone does, you tend to just repeat yourself, rather than introducing anything new. I'd rather skip that part and stand on what I said originally. If you don't like what I said or disagree with it, feel free to post more about that to your heart's content. That doesn't require me to participate.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : With all due respect, Steve, you seem to have been infected with JudyRobinitis, and expect me to argue with you just because you want to argue. I posted what I had to say, you had the opportunity to post what you had to say in response, and you did so. I even answered once. I don't see that I owe you anything more as follow up, just because you want to turn it into some mock debate that you feel you can win. If you have more to say, say it. The fact that you weren't able to put everything you wanted to say into your first reply post does not obligate me to get involved in a longer series of posts with you. Frankly, whenever someone does, you tend to just repeat yourself, rather than introducing anything new. I'd rather skip that part and stand on what I said originally. If you don't like what I said or disagree with it, feel free to post more about that to your heart's content. That doesn't require me to participate. It is not problem Barry. I am only doing what you are doing - putting something out there. I do not care if you reply or not. I am sorry you interpret it as if am trying to engage you, or have some expectation that you need to reply. I think you may have developed some hyper sensitivity in that area. BTW, I was expecting the comparison to Judy to come up at some point. Now, throwing in Robin, well that was a little unexpected. (-:
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/18/2014 8:22 AM, TurquoiseBee wrote: For the record, I have no problem with some sort of fundamental energy that underlies the universe. What I take issue with is whether this energy structures the universe in the sense of either creating it or maintaining it, hands-on. I take issue with its supposed sentience or ability to have a Plan, much less manifest one. So, I wonder what sort of fundamental energy would underlie reincarnation or karma? Is a just a mechanical process? If so, where does a person get their individual personality and consciousness? Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : From: steve.sundur@... steve.sundur@... ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : The concept of a God *complicates* things, rather than simplifying them. That would be fine with me. I am trying to go about understanding things, like most of us. And for me, I've come to the conclusion that there is a higher power at work, even if there is much I don't understand about it. And I have come to the opposite conclusion. End of story. It would seem that there is nothing further to discuss, unless you feel the need to try to convert me to your conclusion. Me, I feel no such need. Believe whatever you want. Barry, it is you who have lost your edge. You would be well advised not to bring up subjects or issues that you are unwilling, or unable to follow through with. With all due respect, Steve, you seem to have been infected with JudyRobinitis, and expect me to argue with you just because you want to argue. I posted what I had to say, you had the opportunity to post what you had to say in response, and you did so. I even answered once. I don't see that I owe you anything more as follow up, just because you want to turn it into some mock debate that you feel you can win. If you have more to say, say it. The fact that you weren't able to put everything you wanted to say into your first reply post does not obligate me to get involved in a longer series of posts with you. Frankly, whenever someone does, you tend to just repeat yourself, rather than introducing anything new. I'd rather skip that part and stand on what I said originally. If you don't like what I said or disagree with it, feel free to post more about that to your heart's content. That doesn't require me to participate. This is all because you, Bawwy, are a solidified, narrow-minded and completely closed individual who is, by his own admission, unwilling or maybe even unable, to consider that his currently-held ideas and beliefs need modification. You are a freak of nature, as I have ascertained before. You are a fossil, a stone, petrified. You stay the same, you do not move. You might as well be dead. You are dead in all the ways that count. But then, I am talking to a deaf man, a blind man - someone who feels there is nothing left to know. Someone who refuses to allow anything to shake his fortified structures of belief. Add to that your odiousness and violence when these belief structures are questioned and we have one hell of an example of how humans can become so seriously isolated by their own choices and fears.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/19/2014 8:59 AM, awoelfleba...@yahoo.com wrote: You are a fossil, a stone, petrified. You stay the same, you do not move. He seems like that now, but keep in mind that Barry did a 180 after he got hurt by Judy over on Google Groups. You're talking about a guy that was once a cult apologist - he sold the snake oil for over twenty-five years. Now, it's all about Judy. Remember, if Judy is for it, Barry is against it. It's that simple, Ann. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/18/2014 8:04 PM, Michael Jackson wrote: That would be a grand experiment for the TMO to undertake. Look at the faith based beliefs in non-TM settings amongst non-TM groups and the same look is given to TM faith based activities and happenings. Lets see whose faith has the greatest effect in the real concrete world - the TM True Believer's faith or the non-TM True Believers in whatever. In your case, the experiment would probably find that you were doing well when you were at MUM, but now, not so good. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/18/2014 9:43 PM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote: To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. Because, it will help you understand karma and reincarnation and what it is that reincarnates and what reaps the karma? --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Barry is scared of introspection. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : With all due respect, Steve, you seem to have been infected with JudyRobinitis, and expect me to argue with you just because you want to argue. I posted what I had to say, you had the opportunity to post what you had to say in response, and you did so. I even answered once. I don't see that I owe you anything more as follow up, just because you want to turn it into some mock debate that you feel you can win. If you have more to say, say it. The fact that you weren't able to put everything you wanted to say into your first reply post does not obligate me to get involved in a longer series of posts with you. Frankly, whenever someone does, you tend to just repeat yourself, rather than introducing anything new. I'd rather skip that part and stand on what I said originally. If you don't like what I said or disagree with it, feel free to post more about that to your heart's content. That doesn't require me to participate. It is not problem Barry. I am only doing what you are doing - putting something out there. I do not care if you reply or not. I am sorry you interpret it as if am trying to engage you, or have some expectation that you need to reply. I think you may have developed some hyper sensitivity in that area. BTW, I was expecting the comparison to Judy to come up at some point. Now, throwing in Robin, well that was a little unexpected. (-:
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
And that is why I replied to Barry's request. But then I was accused of pestering him to reply to me. But yes Richard, that is the issue that I think atheists don't want to go near. They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence. Science works in mysterious ways or at least there is some scientific explanation for this or that occurrence, but the science has not progressed sufficiently to explain it. We'll wait. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 4/18/2014 9:43 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. Because, it will help you understand karma and reincarnation and what it is that reincarnates and what reaps the karma? This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : And that is why I replied to Barry's request. But then I was accused of pestering him to reply to me. But yes Richard, that is the issue that I think atheists don't want to go near. They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence. Science works in mysterious ways or at least there is some scientific explanation for this or that occurrence, but the science has not progressed sufficiently to explain it. Denial about what? Who passes off things as a weird coincidence? So what if not everything can be explained NOW. Does that mean we should chuck out what we have worked out? We'll wait. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 4/18/2014 9:43 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. Because, it will help you understand karma and reincarnation and what it is that reincarnates and what reaps the karma? This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : And that is why I replied to Barry's request. But then I was accused of pestering him to reply to me. But yes Richard, that is the issue that I think atheists don't want to go near. They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence. Science works in mysterious ways or at least there is some scientific explanation for this or that occurrence, but the science has not progressed sufficiently to explain it. Denial about what? Denial that we come into this world not as a blank slate, but with tendencies and predispositions that shape our lifetime. Who passes off things as a weird coincidence? How do we explain things like a child being obsessed with events that took place before he was born, and knowing details about such events when he has had no exposure to them. How does something like that occur? So what if not everything can be explained NOW. Does that mean we should chuck out what we have worked out? No, but what I am saying is that there are things that don't appear to be within the purview of science to explain, at least anytime soon. And so, if we want to understand them, we need to work out some theory. And the theory that I have worked out in my mind, is that we have been here before, and the before shapes our experiences now. Now for the record, this may not be anything that needs to be known for our daily goings on, but they are entomological questions that we all think about to one degree or another. or at least I do. We'll wait. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 4/18/2014 9:43 PM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: To help me understand this, I'm asking the believers in God here to speak up and tell me what the BENEFITS of such a belief are. Because, it will help you understand karma and reincarnation and what it is that reincarnates and what reaps the karma? This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/19/2014 11:59 AM, salyavin808 wrote: ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : And that is why I replied to Barry's request. But then I was accused of pestering him to reply to me. But yes Richard, that is the issue that I think atheists don't want to go near. They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence. Science works in mysterious ways or at least there is some scientific explanation for this or that occurrence, but the science has not progressed sufficiently to explain it. Denial about what? Denial that when Rama levitated it was a miracle? Or, a denial that Rama was the Last Incarnation of Lord Vishnu? Who passes off things as a weird coincidence? It was a weird in my opinion because Barry /just happened to be present/ when one of the most important events of all time occured, after the invention of the lever. So what if not everything can be explained NOW. Does that mean we should chuck out what we have worked out? It seems like, with power like that, to be able to levitate hundreds of times, Rama could have done some good with his talent instead of sending Barry out to work and give him more money. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/19/2014 11:29 AM, steve.sun...@yahoo.com wrote: They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence. Barry posted that when Rama filled the whole lecture hall with golden light, that he wasn't all that impressed - he figured it was just another guy who could do cool things with light. So, when was the last time you witnessed ANYONE levitating, surrounded by a bright golden light? Instead of denying this incident, Barry used it to make himself look special on a discussion group. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : And that is why I replied to Barry's request. But then I was accused of pestering him to reply to me. But yes Richard, that is the issue that I think atheists don't want to go near. They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence. Science works in mysterious ways or at least there is some scientific explanation for this or that occurrence, but the science has not progressed sufficiently to explain it. How do we explain things like a child being obsessed with events that took place before he was born, and knowing details about such events when he has had no exposure to them. How does something like that occur? A better question for you to ask would be, why doesn't it happen to everyone if reincarnation is a common occurrence? Why to so very few? One of the major stories I know of like that is of a Scottish boy who said he came from an island where planes land on the beach. It turns out there is one, called Barra. His family claimed there was no way he could have known but even when they were being interviewed there was a TV on in the background. I'm all for getting scientific about things like this but they are extremely rare and so not easy to test. Basically you have to iron out the possibility of them picking the information up anywhere else. The plural of anecdote really isn't data, I've yet to see a story like this that has reliable facts that are certain not to have been isolated from the child. And like a lot of beliefs about the mind it lacks any known mechanism about how it might work, which doesn't mean it can't but it would also have to explain why it works so rarely. Tricky for something physical. If that's what it is. Everyone dreams for instance. Seems to me that knowledge of previous lives would be immensely useful, why do we forget it?
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/19/2014 12:46 PM, salyavin808 wrote: I'm all for getting scientific about things like this but they are extremely rare and so not easy to test. According to Barry, the Rama levitation event happened hundreds of times and thousands of people witnessed it, so it wasn't that rare. It wouldn't be very difficult to test - Randi could set up a lab test, but Rama is dead now and he didn't teach Barry the secret. Maybe Rama reincarnated as Barry - they both like dogs and stage shows. But, since Barry was already born by the time Rama offed himself, maybe instead of reincarnating as Barry, Rama just took over the Barry body and mind - sort of like in the movie Transcendence. That would explain some things, like why Barry likes movies so much and electronic music, just like Rama. Go figure. Rama walked on air. He appeared to glide over the desert sands as if boards with rollers were attached to his legs. His legs appeared as light beams that formed triangles at the bottom. http://www.meditationclub.com/LastIncarnation.pdf --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Re: Rama walked on air. He appeared to glide over the desert sands as if boards with rollers were attached to his legs. His legs appeared as light beams that formed triangles at the bottom. Richard, you are soo JELLOS! I know, deep down, you just wish you had seen this. Did you ever take hallucinogenics? If you did, and they were any good, you should be able to relate ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 4/19/2014 12:46 PM, salyavin808 wrote: I'm all for getting scientific about things like this but they are extremely rare and so not easy to test. According to Barry, the Rama levitation event happened hundreds of times and thousands of people witnessed it, so it wasn't that rare. It wouldn't be very difficult to test - Randi could set up a lab test, but Rama is dead now and he didn't teach Barry the secret. Maybe Rama reincarnated as Barry - they both like dogs and stage shows. But, since Barry was already born by the time Rama offed himself, maybe instead of reincarnating as Barry, Rama just took over the Barry body and mind - sort of like in the movie Transcendence. That would explain some things, like why Barry likes movies so much and electronic music, just like Rama. Go figure. Rama walked on air. He appeared to glide over the desert sands as if boards with rollers were attached to his legs. His legs appeared as light beams that formed triangles at the bottom. http://www.meditationclub.com/LastIncarnation.pdf http://www.meditationclub.com/LastIncarnation.pdf This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Well, I certainly am glad that you have reduced the number of your special posts to just over a hundred last week - still topping the leader board though. No shit, Sherlock. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, punditster@... wrote : On 4/19/2014 11:29 AM, steve.sundur@... mailto:steve.sundur@... wrote: They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence. Barry posted that when Rama filled the whole lecture hall with golden light, that he wasn't all that impressed - he figured it was just another guy who could do cool things with light. So, when was the last time you witnessed ANYONE levitating, surrounded by a bright golden light? Instead of denying this incident, Barry used it to make himself look special on a discussion group. Go figure. This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus http://www.avast.com/ protection is active.
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
If Barry didn't want to dance, why did he come to the dance party? On 4/19/2014 11:11 AM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote: Barry is scared of introspection. ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, turquoiseb@... wrote : With all due respect, Steve, you seem to have been infected with JudyRobinitis, and expect me to argue with you just because you want to argue. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/19/2014 1:07 PM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote: Well, I certainly am glad that you have reduced the number of your special posts to just over a hundred last week - still topping the leader board though. We've been pretty busy the last few weeks.. It's time consuming providing all the lurkers and the informants something to read on FFL. They are just insatiable information junkies! It's a good thing we have Rick, Buck and Share to keep us informed about the comigs and goings of TMers up there. Keep up the good work. P.S. We just got offered a free house at Ocean Shores, Grays Harbor County, Washington. Go figure. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
On 4/19/2014 1:04 PM, emilymae...@yahoo.com wrote: Re: Rama walked on air. He appeared to glide over the desert sands as if boards with rollers were attached to his legs. His legs appeared as light beams that formed triangles at the bottom. Richard, you are soo JELLOS! Why should I be JELLOS of Barry? I know, deep down, you just wish you had seen this. Did you ever take hallucinogenics? If you did, and they were any good, you should be able to relate Yes, but Barry said it was real, not a hallucination. --- This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active. http://www.avast.com
Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God?
Ahh, but the metaphysical answer is that if you were still cognizant of who and what you were in that last incarnation, you would still be enamored or obsessed with the places and people you were with then, so that would interfere with getting on with your current life. On Sat, 4/19/14, salyavin808 no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote: Subject: Re: [FairfieldLife] Re: What are the *benefits* of believing in God? To: FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com Date: Saturday, April 19, 2014, 5:46 PM ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, no_re...@yahoogroups.com wrote : ---In FairfieldLife@yahoogroups.com, steve.sundur@... wrote : And that is why I replied to Barry's request. But then I was accused of pestering him to reply to me. But yes Richard, that is the issue that I think atheists don't want to go near. They are better off staying in full denial, and passing off incidents that defy an easy explanation as just some sort of weird coincidence. Science works in mysterious ways or at least there is some scientific explanation for this or that occurrence, but the science has not progressed sufficiently to explain it. How do we explain things like a child being obsessed with events that took place before he was born, and knowing details about such events when he has had no exposure to them. How does something like that occur? A better question for you to ask would be, why doesn't it happen to everyone if reincarnation is a common occurrence? Why to so very few? One of the major stories I know of like that is of a Scottish boy who said he came from an island where planes land on the beach. It turns out there is one, called Barra. His family claimed there was no way he could have known but even when they were being interviewed there was a TV on in the background. I'm all for getting scientific about things like this but they are extremely rare and so not easy to test. Basically you have to iron out the possibility of them picking the information up anywhere else. The plural of anecdote really isn't data, I've yet to see a story like this that has reliable facts that are certain not to have been isolated from the child. And like a lot of beliefs about the mind it lacks any known mechanism about how it might work, which doesn't mean it can't but it would also have to explain why it works so rarely. Tricky for something physical. If that's what it is. Everyone dreams for instance. Seems to me that knowledge of previous lives would be immensely useful, why do we forget it?
