Re: [Finale] Another chord question
On 2012-09-22 12:51, Steve Parker wrote: How can I set the Am/D slash to 'Under Root' as a default? By using Am_D? Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another chord question
Thanks for reply. I'm going to look at remapping the font for this and a couple of other things. Steve P. On 22 Sep 2012, at 15:36, Jari Williamsson jari.williams...@mailbox.swipnet.se wrote: On 2012-09-22 12:51, Steve Parker wrote: How can I set the Am/D slash to 'Under Root' as a default? By using Am_D? Best regards, Jari Williamsson ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Another chord question
How can I set the Am/D slash to 'Under Root' as a default? Thanks, Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another chord question
I'm not sure I know what you are talking about. Do you mean you want a slash chord to be C — E instead of C/E? That is done by hitting a different character for the slash. Experiment with the different configurations that slash shift backslash, or | and underscore (shift hyphen) give you. Be careful, though, because the vertically-aligned slash chord generally means an actual polychord (C triad over E triad), while the diagonal ones mean just an alternate bass note. You don't want the musicians playing something unintended! Or did I misunderstand the question? Christopher On Sat Sep 22, at SaturdaySep 22 6:51 AM, Steve Parker wrote: How can I set the Am/D slash to 'Under Root' as a default? Thanks, Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another chord question
Ah.. stupidly I did know how to do this.. What I was asking then was how to use the slash as the shortcut for a different character.. of course no need. I prefer the bass to be below - scans more neatly to me. I know the alternate root or polychord distinction but in practise I would never expect just the symbol to reliably get me a polychord anyway. Steve P. On 22 Sep 2012, at 16:44, Christopher Smith christopher.sm...@videotron.ca wrote: I'm not sure I know what you are talking about. Do you mean you want a slash chord to be C — E instead of C/E? That is done by hitting a different character for the slash. Experiment with the different configurations that slash shift backslash, or | and underscore (shift hyphen) give you. Be careful, though, because the vertically-aligned slash chord generally means an actual polychord (C triad over E triad), while the diagonal ones mean just an alternate bass note. You don't want the musicians playing something unintended! Or did I misunderstand the question? Christopher On Sat Sep 22, at SaturdaySep 22 6:51 AM, Steve Parker wrote: How can I set the Am/D slash to 'Under Root' as a default? Thanks, Steve P. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
Christopher Smith / 2006/04/30 / 03:47 PM wrote: it really gets interesting with composers such as late Duke, Gil Evans, Clare Fischer, Bob Brookmeyer and Maria Schneider. Hm. It always puzzles me when George Russell isn't mentioned among them. When we play in Europe, we usually make sold out shows with great reviews, but never on this continent. Nothing personal, Christopher, of course :-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On May 1, 2006, at 9:39 AM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: Christopher Smith / 2006/04/30 / 03:47 PM wrote: it really gets interesting with composers such as late Duke, Gil Evans, Clare Fischer, Bob Brookmeyer and Maria Schneider. Hm. It always puzzles me when George Russell isn't mentioned among them. When we play in Europe, we usually make sold out shows with great reviews, but never on this continent. Nothing personal, Christopher, of course :-) Well, George is an important and influential composer for sure, but I never knew his harmony was noted for being linear. I always enjoyed his mixed-modes approach to harmony and his layered counterpoint, which is not quite the same thing, though of course it is great-sounding and well-established. Please correct me if I am wrong, as I am far from an expert on his music. I would be happy to include his name in my usual lists from now on! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
Christopher Smith / 2006/05/01 / 10:06 AM wrote: Well, George is an important and influential composer for sure, but I never knew his harmony was noted for being linear. This is pretty OT so we should stop soon :-) Yup, they are linear all right. His Lydian Chromatic Concept of Tonal Organization theory is all about linear motion to the tonal gravity, as he calls it ;-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On Apr 29, 2006, at 10:30 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: By the way, if the first chord, the correct version: G - F - Cb - Eb - G - Bb is supposed to be reproduced exactly how it is, it must be spelled 'Eb over G7'. Thanks for the ongoing discussion about this!! I'm learning a lot from you all! Okay - so it's appropriate to actually put a double decker chord symbol, such as Eb/G7? Is this common practice these days?! Just never heard of doing that :) Thanks again! Jacki ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On May 1, 2006, at 2:36 PM, Jacki Barineau wrote: On Apr 29, 2006, at 10:30 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: By the way, if the first chord, the correct version: G - F - Cb - Eb - G - Bb is supposed to be reproduced exactly how it is, it must be spelled 'Eb over G7'. Thanks for the ongoing discussion about this!! I'm learning a lot from you all! Okay - so it's appropriate to actually put a double decker chord symbol, such as Eb/G7? Is this common practice these days?! Just never heard of doing that :) Nah, no need to do it that way. Pianists get a cue for how to voice it, but everyone else gets slowed down. Replace must be spelled with could be spelled and you have it. G7(b13#9) by modern standards or more traditionally G7(#9#5) are the standard ways to spell it, always with the higher number stacked over the lower number inside parentheses. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
Jacki Barineau / 2006/05/01 / 02:36 PM wrote: Thanks for the ongoing discussion about this!! I'm learning a lot from you all! Okay - so it's appropriate to actually put a double decker chord symbol, such as Eb/G7? Is this common practice these days?! Just never heard of doing that :) It's called Poly Chord, and it is spelled as Eb -- G7 The first purpose of spelling Poly Chord is to give players no freedom of adding their own tensions, so the chord will sound exactly as the composer wanted. This is common practice to altered dominant chord. The second usage is to create upper structure voicing, i.e., D over C Maj7 instead of C Maj7(#11). I personally do not like how most pianists voice Maj7(#11) chord. In the similar line, when you don't trust your pianist, this is a safe way. I once had a pianist who doesn't read my head line, and I was concerned when the melody in the head holds on -3rd, and I was so sure this pianist will voice 9th. The only way to play safe in this scenario is to write out the poly chord, or fire him, which I couldn't :-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
At 20:36 01.05.2006, you wrote: On Apr 29, 2006, at 10:30 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: By the way, if the first chord, the correct version: G - F - Cb - Eb - G - Bb is supposed to be reproduced exactly how it is, it must be spelled 'Eb over G7'. While I can agree with the Fsus/G for the faulty chord, I don't like the Eb over G7. This is normally used for bitonal chords consisting of 2 triads. G7 can have dozens of voicings in jazz, so it's not very exact. I would spell the correct chord as G7 #9 b13 and use an alterated scale over it. For the faulty chord I would use a cminor scale or c pentatonic minor scale, I think. Anyway, I would spell the Cb as B. Well, well. Interesting subject, isn't it? Kurt ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On May 1, 2006, at 3:21 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: Jacki Barineau / 2006/05/01 / 02:36 PM wrote: Thanks for the ongoing discussion about this!! I'm learning a lot from you all! Okay - so it's appropriate to actually put a double decker chord symbol, such as Eb/G7? Is this common practice these days?! Just never heard of doing that :) It's called Poly Chord, and it is spelled as Eb -- G7 The first purpose of spelling Poly Chord is to give players no freedom of adding their own tensions, so the chord will sound exactly as the composer wanted. This is common practice to altered dominant chord. The second usage is to create upper structure voicing, i.e., D over C Maj7 instead of C Maj7(#11). I personally do not like how most pianists voice Maj7(#11) chord. In the similar line, when you don't trust your pianist, this is a safe way. I once had a pianist who doesn't read my head line, and I was concerned when the melody in the head holds on -3rd, and I was so sure this pianist will voice 9th. The only way to play safe in this scenario is to write out the poly chord, or fire him, which I couldn't :-) G7(b13#9) doesn't give the pianist much choice about what extensions to add, either, so either one will fill the bill for a pianist. A guitarist, or an improviser, on the other hand, might hesitate a moment over a polychord, which is something one generally wants to avoid. May I suggest that if you want exact voicings (which I don't, usually) then chord symbols are not the way to go? They are by necessity a shorthand, designed to GIVE freedom to the performers by cutting down how much the composer insists on. Generally if I want exact voicings, I write out the voicing, and often add a chord symbol anyway so that the player can read it faster. But I recognise that many performers and composers have different preferences in the way they like things notated. I, in my own music, have not had much success with forcing players into a way of playing that they are not comfortable with, as the music invariably suffers for my point of view. If somebody asked me for polychord notation, I would not hesitate to provide it. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
Christopher Smith / 2006/05/01 / 03:35 PM wrote: G7(b13#9) doesn't give the pianist much choice about what extensions to add, either, so either one will fill the bill for a pianist. There are a lot of pianists switches from #9 to b9 and add b5, or even play tri-tone sub. Don't get me wrong. I am all for freedom. I hire piano, guitar, and vib players by their comping creativity. It is the biggest part of the deal how they voice for me. In that, I don't write poly chord except the ending chord. A lot of my favorite musicians likes to noodle on the ending chord which I am not too crazy about. On the other hand, when I write big band chart, most of comping are written in poly chord because this is the only way to make sure they don't crash with horn voicing. Generally if I want exact voicings, I write out the voicing, Ur, around here, if you want to play with grooving doods, they don't read notes that quickly :-) -- - Hiro Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On May 1, 2006, at 12:51 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: On the other hand, when I write big band chart, most of comping are written in poly chord because this is the only way to make sure they don't crash with horn voicing. Hi Hiro, Don't comp when there are voicings in the horns. works for me. (Of course, this is an oversimplification, but it's a good place to start.) Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On May 1, 2006, at 12:51 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote: On the other hand, when I write big band chart, most of comping are written in poly chord because this is the only way to make sure they don't crash with horn voicing. Hi Hiro, Don't comp when there are voicings in the horns. works for me. (Of course, this is an oversimplification, but it's a good place to start.) Chuck Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com Too much comping in a big band setting makes the band sound smaller. Bob Florence ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
It's been a long time since I studied harmonic analysis in grad
school, via the Shenker (sp?) system, but if I recall correctly, with
any vertical aggregate, one finds the first perfect 5th (starting at
the bottom, of course) in the stack, and proclaims the root of that
interval as the root of the entire chord. If there is no perfect 5th,
one searches for the first perfect 4th, and uses the top note as the
root etc. Usually worked for me.
Dean M. Estabrook
On Apr 29, 2006, at 7:30 PM, A-NO-NE Music wrote:
Jacki Barineau / 2006/04/28 / 07:16 PM wrote:
G - F - C - Eb - G - Bb
I am too late on this game. Chuck already caught it's a typo.
However,
I just can't help on this one. Please allow me.
Of course depending on the context, but most likely this chord is F9
(sus4)/G (with the typo 'C').
It is so typical to voice C-7/F for F7(sus), and also very typical to
put the 9th ('G' in this case) on bass.
Since jazz theory is still young, it is very personal. I always
believe
I have the best answer, after carefully examining all the
possibilities
then to pick the best explanation.
What does this chord derives a scale?
It is not G- something because of Eb.
It is not C- something since it sounds dominant-like.
F mixo is the chord scale this chord dictates.
What chord scale is derived is the only key to name to chord
correctly,
in my not so humble opinion. So, the other one:
G7 (#5, #9)
What chord scale would this derive? If you think that way, it must be
b13th instead of raised 5th. #5 means whole tone scale, then #9 will
contradict. If you put b13 then the chord scale is Mixo #9, b13.
By the way, if the first chord, the correct version:
G - F - Cb - Eb - G - Bb
is supposed to be reproduced exactly how it is, it must be spelled 'Eb
over G7'.
--
- Hiro
Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com
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Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On Apr 30, 2006, at 1:28 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: It's been a long time since I studied harmonic analysis in grad school, via the Shenker (sp?) system, but if I recall correctly, with any vertical aggregate, one finds the first perfect 5th (starting at the bottom, of course) in the stack, and proclaims the root of that interval as the root of the entire chord. If there is no perfect 5th, one searches for the first perfect 4th, and uses the top note as the root etc. Usually worked for me. Yes, but... The problem with that is in classical and jazz harmony the 5th is the first note to be dropped when chords have fewer notes. So a Cm7 chord without a G might be misread as an Eb6 if one stuck to that system, since you would choose the Eb-Bb fifth as announcing the root. Generally in common-practice jazz one looks for a third and a seventh above the bass note to find the chord function, then everything else is colour (extensions and the like) unless there is an altered fifth present. Obviously, inverted chords start to present a problem in this system, as they get ambiguous pretty fast when the bass is not the root, but there are some common progressions that show up often enough so that one can generally sort it out pretty easily (or at least with no casualties!) I'm realising more and more as things wear on that our system of identifying chords by intervals above the root, while useful enough, doesn't tell the whole story. I'm really starting to get involved much more with harmony that is the result of voiceleading, which is a very old concept dating back to Renaissance, but is original-sounding and quite easy to hear even in modern contexts. There are examples in jazz as early as George Gershwin, Fletcher Henderson, and early Duke Ellington, and it really gets interesting with composers such as late Duke, Gil Evans, Clare Fischer, Bob Brookmeyer and Maria Schneider. Of course, this is old hat to classical composers, but us jazz guys need it simple! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
Very true ... I hear you. I can remember using the system more in the analysis of contemporary tone structures existing in atonal or extremely dense tonal music where just nailing down an acoustic root had its advantages and you are correct, the function of a given stack varies, of course, according to its environment. Interesting stuff ... Dean On Apr 30, 2006, at 12:47 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Apr 30, 2006, at 1:28 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: It's been a long time since I studied harmonic analysis in grad school, via the Shenker (sp?) system, but if I recall correctly, with any vertical aggregate, one finds the first perfect 5th (starting at the bottom, of course) in the stack, and proclaims the root of that interval as the root of the entire chord. If there is no perfect 5th, one searches for the first perfect 4th, and uses the top note as the root etc. Usually worked for me. Yes, but... The problem with that is in classical and jazz harmony the 5th is the first note to be dropped when chords have fewer notes. So a Cm7 chord without a G might be misread as an Eb6 if one stuck to that system, since you would choose the Eb-Bb fifth as announcing the root. Generally in common-practice jazz one looks for a third and a seventh above the bass note to find the chord function, then everything else is colour (extensions and the like) unless there is an altered fifth present. Obviously, inverted chords start to present a problem in this system, as they get ambiguous pretty fast when the bass is not the root, but there are some common progressions that show up often enough so that one can generally sort it out pretty easily (or at least with no casualties!) I'm realising more and more as things wear on that our system of identifying chords by intervals above the root, while useful enough, doesn't tell the whole story. I'm really starting to get involved much more with harmony that is the result of voiceleading, which is a very old concept dating back to Renaissance, but is original-sounding and quite easy to hear even in modern contexts. There are examples in jazz as early as George Gershwin, Fletcher Henderson, and early Duke Ellington, and it really gets interesting with composers such as late Duke, Gil Evans, Clare Fischer, Bob Brookmeyer and Maria Schneider. Of course, this is old hat to classical composers, but us jazz guys need it simple! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
It has always seemed to me that the bass line is more important than the upper voices in analyzing chord progressions. The bass line in this case defines a progression of descending fifths, a popular progression popular since the Baroque period. (Stop Vivaldi, stop.) The 7-3-7-3-7-3 chromatic line in the upper voices confirms it. C flat (B), B, Bb, A, A flat, G 7 3 7 3 7 3 Db G C F Bb Eb Ab ivii VI The Db and Cb destroy the previous key (Eb I assume) the descending fifths lead to the cadence in Ab (ii V I). A more common modulation you can't find. Upper voices can often disguise a common progression. Even if the cb were a c natural the meaning of the progression would be the same but it would be awkward, the c having no musical meaning, being neither a chord tone nor a contrapuntal tone. a chromatic motion with no target. BF Dean M. Estabrook wrote: Very true ... I hear you. I can remember using the system more in the analysis of contemporary tone structures existing in atonal or extremely dense tonal music where just nailing down an acoustic root had its advantages and you are correct, the function of a given stack varies, of course, according to its environment. Interesting stuff ... Dean On Apr 30, 2006, at 12:47 PM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Apr 30, 2006, at 1:28 PM, Dean M. Estabrook wrote: It's been a long time since I studied harmonic analysis in grad school, via the Shenker (sp?) system, but if I recall correctly, with any vertical aggregate, one finds the first perfect 5th (starting at the bottom, of course) in the stack, and proclaims the root of that interval as the root of the entire chord. If there is no perfect 5th, one searches for the first perfect 4th, and uses the top note as the root etc. Usually worked for me. Yes, but... The problem with that is in classical and jazz harmony the 5th is the first note to be dropped when chords have fewer notes. So a Cm7 chord without a G might be misread as an Eb6 if one stuck to that system, since you would choose the Eb-Bb fifth as announcing the root. Generally in common-practice jazz one looks for a third and a seventh above the bass note to find the chord function, then everything else is colour (extensions and the like) unless there is an altered fifth present. Obviously, inverted chords start to present a problem in this system, as they get ambiguous pretty fast when the bass is not the root, but there are some common progressions that show up often enough so that one can generally sort it out pretty easily (or at least with no casualties!) I'm realising more and more as things wear on that our system of identifying chords by intervals above the root, while useful enough, doesn't tell the whole story. I'm really starting to get involved much more with harmony that is the result of voiceleading, which is a very old concept dating back to Renaissance, but is original-sounding and quite easy to hear even in modern contexts. There are examples in jazz as early as George Gershwin, Fletcher Henderson, and early Duke Ellington, and it really gets interesting with composers such as late Duke, Gil Evans, Clare Fischer, Bob Brookmeyer and Maria Schneider. Of course, this is old hat to classical composers, but us jazz guys need it simple! Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
Jacki Barineau wrote: I knew I'd have another question as soon as I sent the last note! It's been 23 years since I took music theory in college, and though I remember a lot, this song interpretation is really challenging my old brain here!! What I did is have the piano player play the song into a midi file so I could interpret the chords he's playing and notate the song for the composer (the piano player plays by ear only)... What is the rule of thumb on when you call a chord a 9th, 11th, or 13th? I remember something about the 7th needing to be present or otherwise you'd call it a 6th instead of 13th or an add2 instead of a 9th...?? This particular chord definitely has the dominant feel/sound to it and is used in that way as it leads to the tonic. The song is in Cm. This chord I'm trying to define is: G - F - C - Eb - G - Bb Would this be a Gm13? Or what?!! I'd call this a Cm7sus4. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
I would say, Cm11/G Because of the lower structure, G as bass note and f it has a certain dominant function (kind of similar to g sus), but I could not see it as Gm7 11 b13, because the b13 is too strong and would make it a C minor or Eb Major chord anyway. Without the G bass it could be a Fsus (Cm7/F), but Fsus/G doesn't make much sense. And dominant, interestingly, not in direction of Cminor, but rather G minor or Bb Maj7. In any case it is not a common chord, so you will have trouble describing it using normal chord symbols Kurt At 01:16 29.04.2006, you wrote: I knew I'd have another question as soon as I sent the last note! It's been 23 years since I took music theory in college, and though I remember a lot, this song interpretation is really challenging my old brain here!! What I did is have the piano player play the song into a midi file so I could interpret the chords he's playing and notate the song for the composer (the piano player plays by ear only)... What is the rule of thumb on when you call a chord a 9th, 11th, or 13th? I remember something about the 7th needing to be present or otherwise you'd call it a 6th instead of 13th or an add2 instead of a 9th...?? This particular chord definitely has the dominant feel/ sound to it and is used in that way as it leads to the tonic. The song is in Cm. This chord I'm trying to define is: G - F - C - Eb - G - Bb Would this be a Gm13? Or what?!! Thanks a bunch! Jacki ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On Apr 29, 2006, at 7:00 AM, dhbailey wrote: Jacki Barineau wrote: I knew I'd have another question as soon as I sent the last note! It's been 23 years since I took music theory in college, and though I remember a lot, this song interpretation is really challenging my old brain here!! What I did is have the piano player play the song into a midi file so I could interpret the chords he's playing and notate the song for the composer (the piano player plays by ear only)... What is the rule of thumb on when you call a chord a 9th, 11th, or 13th? I remember something about the 7th needing to be present or otherwise you'd call it a 6th instead of 13th or an add2 instead of a 9th...?? Right. Most musicians understand added extensions in parentheses as meaning add, like Cm7(11) instead of Cm7(add11), so this can save some space when marking detailed chord symbols. This particular chord definitely has the dominant feel/sound to it and is used in that way as it leads to the tonic. The song is in Cm. This chord I'm trying to define is: G - F - C - Eb - G - Bb Would this be a Gm13? Or what?!! I'd call this a Cm7sus4. Hmm not really, since there IS a third as well. Sus4 usually means the 4th REPLACES the 3rd. It would depend on the usage, since she mentioned that it was going to a Cm, and I assume there is the G in the bass, which affects things quite a bit. I would call this Cm7(11)/G with no other information to guide me, and it seems like rather a weak cadence chord going to Cm, as there are too many common tones. It appears to have a similar function to a cadential 6/4 in classical music, and so I would expect it to go to a stronger G dominant of some type before resolving. If I ABSOLUTELY had to name it with a G root, I would go with Gm7(b13 11) with the b13 and 11 stacked, but I wouldn't be happy. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
Just played this on the pno. and it sounds odd, in that I don't know the context. What are the preceding chord and melody and bass notes, and the following? Stan Lord On 29 Apr 2006, at 12:07, Kurt Gnos wrote: I would say, Cm11/G Because of the lower structure, G as bass note and f it has a certain dominant function (kind of similar to g sus), but I could not see it as Gm7 11 b13, because the b13 is too strong and would make it a C minor or Eb Major chord anyway. Without the G bass it could be a Fsus (Cm7/F), but Fsus/G doesn't make much sense. And dominant, interestingly, not in direction of Cminor, but rather G minor or Bb Maj7. In any case it is not a common chord, so you will have trouble describing it using normal chord symbols Kurt At 01:16 29.04.2006, you wrote: I knew I'd have another question as soon as I sent the last note! It's been 23 years since I took music theory in college, and though I remember a lot, this song interpretation is really challenging my old brain here!! What I did is have the piano player play the song into a midi file so I could interpret the chords he's playing and notate the song for the composer (the piano player plays by ear only)... What is the rule of thumb on when you call a chord a 9th, 11th, or 13th? I remember something about the 7th needing to be present or otherwise you'd call it a 6th instead of 13th or an add2 instead of a 9th...?? This particular chord definitely has the dominant feel/ sound to it and is used in that way as it leads to the tonic. The song is in Cm. This chord I'm trying to define is: G - F - C - Eb - G - Bb Would this be a Gm13? Or what?!! Thanks a bunch! Jacki ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
Christopher Smith wrote: G - F - C - Eb - G - Bb If I ABSOLUTELY had to name it with a G root, I would go with Gm7(b13 11) with the b13 and 11 stacked, but I wouldn't be happy. Nor would I. In fact, I'd see this as incredibly confusing, if not outright wrong, as b13 is a tension of a dominant-function chord. It could be seen as Eb6-9/G as well as Cm7(11)/G. At its essence it's a pentatonic scale sounded as a quasi-cluster. What I'd call it would depend entirely on context - what are the preceding and following chords? What's the key? --- Neal Schermerhorn ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On Apr 29, 2006, at 12:01 PM, Neal Schermerhorn wrote: Christopher Smith wrote: G - F - C - Eb - G - Bb If I ABSOLUTELY had to name it with a G root, I would go with Gm7(b13 11) with the b13 and 11 stacked, but I wouldn't be happy. Nor would I. In fact, I'd see this as incredibly confusing, if not outright wrong, as b13 is a tension of a dominant-function chord. It could be seen as Eb6-9/G as well as Cm7(11)/G. At its essence it's a pentatonic scale sounded as a quasi-cluster. What I'd call it would depend entirely on context - what are the preceding and following chords? What's the key? While I would agree with you in a common-practice jazz context, in modern jazz added b13ths appear on chord qualities other than dominant more and more frequently these days, starting with Herbie Hancock, Wayne Shorter, and so on. Furthermore, if this chord resolves to Cm, then a chord with a G bass IS pretty much functioning as a dominant, with or without the leading tone, and thus can easily take an Eb. I also agree with you that the best symbol to use would depend on the context. Your Eb69/G idea is actually a pretty good one, though as you said, it would be better to know the context. So while not actually wrong, I do recognise that the chord as voiced resolving to Cm is weak, and chord symbols are getting less and less useful to describe the structures that appear in modern jazz. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On Apr 29, 2006, at 11:47 AM, Stan Lord wrote: Just played this on the pno. and it sounds odd, in that I don't know the context. What are the preceding chord and melody and bass notes, and the following? Thanks, everyone, for helping me figure this out! Okay - I've taken a snapshot of the measure that includes the chord in question and a couple of measures after it... http://www.ourlittleplace.com/images/snapshot.jpg The chord I'm referring to is the 2nd chord in the first measure shown (following the Db9). While we're at it - I am calling the chord *after* the one in question (1st chord in the next measure) a Cm11 - is this also correct?! Like I said, this song is full of jazz chords that I'm just not familiar with!! Thanks again for the help with analysis! - Jacki ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
Jacki, Looks (and sounds) to me as if the C flat continues in that measure, which makes perfect sense harmonically. The result is not a C minor chord at all, it's a G 7 #5#9, and everything is right in the world of normal, functional, jazz harmony. Chuck On Apr 29, 2006, at 10:17 AM, Jacki Barineau wrote: On Apr 29, 2006, at 11:47 AM, Stan Lord wrote: Just played this on the pno. and it sounds odd, in that I don't know the context. What are the preceding chord and melody and bass notes, and the following? Thanks, everyone, for helping me figure this out! Okay - I've taken a snapshot of the measure that includes the chord in question and a couple of measures after it... http://www.ourlittleplace.com/images/snapshot.jpg The chord I'm referring to is the 2nd chord in the first measure shown (following the Db9). While we're at it - I am calling the chord *after* the one in question (1st chord in the next measure) a Cm11 - is this also correct?! Like I said, this song is full of jazz chords that I'm just not familiar with!! Thanks again for the help with analysis! - Jacki ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On Apr 29, 2006, at 1:17 PM, Jacki Barineau wrote: On Apr 29, 2006, at 11:47 AM, Stan Lord wrote: Just played this on the pno. and it sounds odd, in that I don't know the context. What are the preceding chord and melody and bass notes, and the following? Thanks, everyone, for helping me figure this out! Okay - I've taken a snapshot of the measure that includes the chord in question and a couple of measures after it... http://www.ourlittleplace.com/images/snapshot.jpg The chord I'm referring to is the 2nd chord in the first measure shown (following the Db9). Yeah, it's pretty clear that the 2nd chord in m 1 is Cm7(11), though I might have voiced it with C in the bass anyway. I'm not sure it's even necessary to say Cm7(11)/G even WITH the G bass, since the bass note is an arpeggiated second inversion anyway, which are not usually accounted for in chord symbols. Given the context, I might have made the FIRST measure the 2/4 measure, rather than the 2nd, so as to keep the impression of strong chord movement over barlines. That would make the second measure 3 beats of Cm11, 1 beat of F9, which is pretty common. Maybe I am being needlessly fussy, but I maintain that harmonic rhythm gives a stronger impression of meter than the actual time signature, so one should pay close attention to that. While we're at it - I am calling the chord *after* the one in question (1st chord in the next measure) a Cm11 - is this also correct?! Yep, Cm11 is a good symbol for that. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
Hi Christopher, I think you are missing the continuation of the C flat in that first measure - which would explain and rationalize everything. It's a B - and that makes the chord an altered G7! It's so easy to forget the continuation of an accidental. Moving the bar line doesn't help, in this case, as it would get rid of the C flat/B and get us back to that confusing, (and IMO) inappropriate chord. Chuck On Apr 29, 2006, at 10:54 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: On Apr 29, 2006, at 1:17 PM, Jacki Barineau wrote: On Apr 29, 2006, at 11:47 AM, Stan Lord wrote: Just played this on the pno. and it sounds odd, in that I don't know the context. What are the preceding chord and melody and bass notes, and the following? Thanks, everyone, for helping me figure this out! Okay - I've taken a snapshot of the measure that includes the chord in question and a couple of measures after it... http://www.ourlittleplace.com/images/snapshot.jpg The chord I'm referring to is the 2nd chord in the first measure shown (following the Db9). Yeah, it's pretty clear that the 2nd chord in m 1 is Cm7(11), though I might have voiced it with C in the bass anyway. I'm not sure it's even necessary to say Cm7(11)/G even WITH the G bass, since the bass note is an arpeggiated second inversion anyway, which are not usually accounted for in chord symbols. Given the context, I might have made the FIRST measure the 2/4 measure, rather than the 2nd, so as to keep the impression of strong chord movement over barlines. That would make the second measure 3 beats of Cm11, 1 beat of F9, which is pretty common. Maybe I am being needlessly fussy, but I maintain that harmonic rhythm gives a stronger impression of meter than the actual time signature, so one should pay close attention to that. While we're at it - I am calling the chord *after* the one in question (1st chord in the next measure) a Cm11 - is this also correct?! Yep, Cm11 is a good symbol for that. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale Chuck Israels 230 North Garden Terrace Bellingham, WA 98225-5836 phone (360) 671-3402 fax (360) 676-6055 www.chuckisraels.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
On Apr 29, 2006, at 1:52 PM, Chuck Israels wrote: Looks (and sounds) to me as if the C flat continues in that measure, which makes perfect sense harmonically. The result is not a C minor chord at all, it's a G 7 #5#9, and everything is right in the world of normal, functional, jazz harmony. Chuck DUH THANK you, Chuck, for noticing that C flat! I had totally missed that and that definitely makes all the difference, especially since the G7 #9/#5 chord is used elsewhere in this same song - just spelled a little differently as far as voicing... I'm going to recheck all the chords I've analyzed and make sure I'm not missing anything else like this - hope you don't mind me asking for verification on a few others I've figured out just to make sure! Thanks again, EVERYONE, who helped in solving this mystery chord!! - Jacki ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
At 19:52 29.04.2006, you wrote: Looks (and sounds) to me as if the C flat continues in that measure, which makes perfect sense harmonically. The result is not a C minor chord at all, it's a G 7 #5#9, and everything is right in the world of normal, functional, jazz harmony. Yes of course. So it makes sense. Spell the Cb as B natural, and all is fine and makes more sense than some pentatonic chord or sus chord. Sounds better, too. Kurt ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Another Chord Question
Jacki Barineau / 2006/04/28 / 07:16 PM wrote:
G - F - C - Eb - G - Bb
I am too late on this game. Chuck already caught it's a typo. However,
I just can't help on this one. Please allow me.
Of course depending on the context, but most likely this chord is F9
(sus4)/G (with the typo 'C').
It is so typical to voice C-7/F for F7(sus), and also very typical to
put the 9th ('G' in this case) on bass.
Since jazz theory is still young, it is very personal. I always believe
I have the best answer, after carefully examining all the possibilities
then to pick the best explanation.
What does this chord derives a scale?
It is not G- something because of Eb.
It is not C- something since it sounds dominant-like.
F mixo is the chord scale this chord dictates.
What chord scale is derived is the only key to name to chord correctly,
in my not so humble opinion. So, the other one:
G7 (#5, #9)
What chord scale would this derive? If you think that way, it must be
b13th instead of raised 5th. #5 means whole tone scale, then #9 will
contradict. If you put b13 then the chord scale is Mixo #9, b13.
By the way, if the first chord, the correct version:
G - F - Cb - Eb - G - Bb
is supposed to be reproduced exactly how it is, it must be spelled 'Eb
over G7'.
--
- Hiro
Hiroaki Honshuku, A-NO-NE Music, Boston, MA
http://a-no-ne.com http://anonemusic.com
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[Finale] Another Chord Question
I knew I'd have another question as soon as I sent the last note! It's been 23 years since I took music theory in college, and though I remember a lot, this song interpretation is really challenging my old brain here!! What I did is have the piano player play the song into a midi file so I could interpret the chords he's playing and notate the song for the composer (the piano player plays by ear only)... What is the rule of thumb on when you call a chord a 9th, 11th, or 13th? I remember something about the 7th needing to be present or otherwise you'd call it a 6th instead of 13th or an add2 instead of a 9th...?? This particular chord definitely has the dominant feel/ sound to it and is used in that way as it leads to the tonic. The song is in Cm. This chord I'm trying to define is: G - F - C - Eb - G - Bb Would this be a Gm13? Or what?!! Thanks a bunch! Jacki ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
