Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 17, 2005, at 6:35 PM, John Howell wrote: At 3:28 PM -0400 4/16/05, Andrew Stiller wrote: Certainly. But Rachmaninoff's use of the convention was by then no more traditional than Hindemith's use of the viola d'amore. Hindemith directed the Yale Collegium Musicum, and was a violist. Why would he not be interested in viola d'amore, and what's wrong with that? It's all part of the rediscovery of early instruments, techniques and performance practice. Of course it is, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with it. My point was merely that such things are not *traditional*--they're a conscious resurrection of a past usage, and intended from the getgo to be perceived as exceptional. Another modern use of the viola d'amore points this up particularly well: Janacek's use of it in connection with the uncanny, immortal Emilia Marty in _The Makropoulos Case._ Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 17, 2005, at 6:28 PM, John Howell wrote: Andrew is quite right, but other instruments whose normal range crosses between the treble and bass clefs solve the problem through transposed parts. This is true in many cases but by no means all. Piano. Organ. Or if you think grand-staff instruments shouldn't count, consider the marimba. I might point out as well that the range of the trombone is exactly the same as that of the horn, yet it is entirely possible, and commonplace, to notate its full range w.o resort to either a transposition or any C clef, much less the alto clef that David Fenton deemed irreplaceable for instruments whose effective range straddles middle C. There seems to be an unspoken assumption at work here, to the effect that if an instrument is assigned two clefs, one of them must be a C clef. This is of course not true. If I had my absolute druthers (wh. of course I don't), both the viola and the clarinet would be treble-clef instruments that switched to bass clef for low-lying passages. Just like the marimba. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 18, 2005, at 2:42 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: if I find anything in the manuscript that is notationally unclear, or looks like a mistake, or represents nonstandard practice, I will ask about it. That's precisely my point: you ask about it. You don't go off on your own and make a unilateral decision, because the composer's wishes are sovereign. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Tue, 19 Apr 2005 12:36:26 -0400, Andrew Stiller [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Apr 18, 2005, at 2:42 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: if I find anything in the manuscript that is notationally unclear, or looks like a mistake, or represents nonstandard practice, I will ask about it. That's precisely my point: you ask about it. You don't go off on your own and make a unilateral decision, because the composer's wishes are sovereign. Andrew, I disagree and agree with your statement of a composer's wish being soverign. In as far as the elements of music for interpretation, true the composer is soverign, however, IMHO clefs have nothing to do with the composers intention. Darcy is correct in saying that he asks the composer about compositional questions, ie. crescendo, dynamics, positioning of elements, note questions. However, when it comes to clefs, no matter what clef is used, it is only an element of reference and of convenience. It changes nothing of the compositional qualities. So at risk of sounding absolutely like a rabid radical, I feel it is the copist's/engraver's duty to render the music READABLE for what ever the instrument conventions are for that instrument, be it voice, guitar, harp, cello, percussion, etc. The purpose of written music is to give the references points to another person who frequently does not have access to the composer so that s/he can properly and easily interpret it respecting the the composer's wishes as much as possible with the given information. (The fact that we call those musicians interpreters already gives a huge clue as to their duties!! We don't call them slaves, although some interpret their roles as such, because once the composer is not there, they are free within the traditions of the day, OR their personal convictions as interpreter to do just that-interpret!) I feel that we have become slaves to nonserving conventions when we feel that we have to maintain a treble clef, because it was easier for the composer to use that clef since perhaps the notes required many fewer leger lines. If I read a G4 be it in bass, tenor, alto or treble clef, the note remains a G4. The only thing that can change that note are those extra elements aimed at interpretation. Gregory (the anarchistic radical) ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 19 Apr 2005 at 12:32, Andrew Stiller wrote: I might point out as well that the range of the trombone is exactly the same as that of the horn, yet it is entirely possible, and commonplace, to notate its full range w.o resort to either a transposition or any C clef, much less the alto clef that David Fenton deemed irreplaceable for instruments whose effective range straddles middle C. Until I played an instrument that utilizes alto clef on a regular basis, I would not have seen the beauty of its use. Maybe you don't get it because you don't play an instrument where alto clef is so helpful. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 17, 2005, at 4:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 17 Apr 2005 at 11:43, Andrew Stiller wrote: With a concert-pitch score, the copyist will need to exercise more initiative than usual in deciding clef change issues, because quite obviously instruments with big transpositions will have parts that lie entirely differently on the staff in the part than in the score. I don't quite understand the distinction between engraver and copyist inherent in your discussion. In these days of Finale, isn't the engraver of the score the same as the copyist of the parts? Is it not the case that the engraver of both then has to act as editor and create parts that are most likely to produce the best performance with the least amount of confusion? Why shouldn't the conductor get the same consideration as the performers? While it is perfectly true that the line between copyist and engraver has vanished, I don't see how that affects my analysis. If I am a copyist/engraver, and a composer hands me an MS to engrave and extract parts from, my job (unless instructed further) is to put all the provided notational elements into Finale, changing nothing but typography and layout (broadly defined). Same goes for the parts, except inasmuch as a transposition may have to be provided if the score is in concert pitch. Where's the problem? Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
At 3:26 PM -0400 4/16/05, Andrew Stiller wrote: I could counter with a long list of instruments whose effective ranges do precisely that, yet do not use (and in most cases never have used) the alto clef. But I think it will be more, um, effective simply to point out that the only modern instrument that uses the alto clef is the viola, so that by your reasoning it may be deduced that the viola must be the only modern instrument whose effective range straddles middle C. Since that is manifestly not the case, your assertion is falsified. Andrew is quite right, but other instruments whose normal range crosses between the treble and bass clefs solve the problem through transposed parts. Finding a usable clef for F horn, alto sax, alto clarinet, and other such instruments when writing a concert pitch score is a real problem, since the part stradle the middle C barrier. That's one reason I would never write a concert pitch score, although not as important as the fact that I play the instruments and know exactly what each register sounds like when notated in normal transpositions. Recall that in the baroque, strings and woodwinds were notated at concert pitch, but with the use of the 9 movable clefs. Modern viola notation is really an extended example of that tradition, as is the use of tenor clef for certain instruments, which is where this discussion started! Those who do prefer concert pitch scores do so for reasons that are perfectly valid for them, of course, and I do not mean to suggest that they are not. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
At 3:28 PM -0400 4/16/05, Andrew Stiller wrote: Certainly. But Rachmaninoff's use of the convention was by then no more traditional than Hindemith's use of the viola d'amore. Hindemith directed the Yale Collegium Musicum, and was a violist. Why would he not be interested in viola d'amore, and what's wrong with that? It's all part of the rediscovery of early instruments, techniques and performance practice. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
At 6:20 PM -0400 4/16/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 16/04/2005 14:19:15 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: first, the students you cite are taking private lessons, which the vast majority of middle and high school instrumentalists do not. No - I teach in high schools, not private lessons. We used to run an internal exam system - when our students reached our Grade 5 (the equivalent of Grade 4 of the Associated Board) those trombone players who had started to learn in treble clef had to present one piece in bass clef and vice versa. For those who had started in treble clef, tenor clef was not a problem - they simply read it as treble clef and change the key signature. Since you write through AOL, I didn't know what country you were in, but now I see your web address below is .uk. We do not, over here, have the equivalent of your Grade system of the Associated Board. Pity, too; we should have! Though it was a bit parochial of me (OK, a LOT parochial!), my reference was to U.S. schools--those I am familiar with. But such differences there still are between UK and U.S.! Here, no trombone player would start reading treble clef, at least not on trombone. None of the usual band method books used in the schools would support such instruction, especially since your kids are clearly NOT reading concert pitch treble clef, but Bb-transposed treble clef. Heritage of the brass bands, I would guess. And you're right, they would require only a trivial mental adjustment of two flats to read tenor clef (at concert pitch; I think I have that correct). So in fact, your students read bass clef and tenor clef at concert pitch, but not treble clef at concert pitch. Still, they're well ahead of students the same age in the U.S., who wouldn't recognize a tenor clef if it bit them on the spitvalve! Our only inheritance from the treble-clef brass band system is the duplicate parts for treble clef (Bb-transposed) and bass clef (concert pitch) baritone/euphonium parts, both of which are still required in band arrangements. And I believe the justification is exactly the same as the justification for treble-clef brass band notation: baritone players are often recruited from supernumerary trumpet players. Thanks very much for the clarification. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
At 4/17/2005 10:31 PM, John Howell wrote: Our only inheritance from the treble-clef brass band system is the duplicate parts for treble clef (Bb-transposed) and bass clef (concert pitch) baritone/euphonium parts, both of which are still required in band arrangements. And I believe the justification is exactly the same as the justification for treble-clef brass band notation: baritone players are often recruited from supernumerary trumpet players. Exactly, I once took a poor third trumpet player and convinced her that she was more needed playing baritone. What was surprising was that she turned into an excellent baritone player. I am still a close friend of her husband, but unfortunately, she developed cancer and passed on. He always says that she didn't think she was any good on the baritone, either. Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 18 Apr 2005, at 11:13 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote: While it is perfectly true that the line between copyist and engraver has vanished, I don't see how that affects my analysis. If I am a copyist/engraver, and a composer hands me an MS to engrave and extract parts from, my job (unless instructed further) is to put all the provided notational elements into Finale, changing nothing but typography and layout (broadly defined). Same goes for the parts, except inasmuch as a transposition may have to be provided if the score is in concert pitch. Where's the problem? Well, that's just not my experience as a copyist. When I copy for any composer, there's always quite a bit of back-and-forth about notational practice, questions going far beyond mere typography and layout. (I worked on some of Christian Wolff's music last year -- if you know what his manuscript looks like, you know the kind of questions we were dealing with.) Also, it goes without saying that if I find anything in the manuscript that is notationally unclear, or looks like a mistake, or represents nonstandard practice, I will ask about it. This is part of the job definition for a copyist, IMO. The only difference when working with an editor is that instead of asking the composer directly, I would flag my concerns for the editor to follow up on. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
A subtle distinction needs to be drawn here. My objection is not as a bassoonist, but as a composer. As a bassoonist, I have no beef w. the clef at all--but as a composer, I find it an unnecessary complication of the notational system. Andrew, Your point has been clearly made, and as a composer, I can agree with your reasoning, but then, as an instrumentalist, do you feel that it then becomes the duty of the copyist to satisify the needs of the performer and engrave the music using the clefs that are more comfortable for a performer to use? Also, do you feel that the full score should be engraved only in Treble and Bass Clefs, or should it be engraved to reflect the parts as they are written for the performer. If the latter, does this also mean that a score should be engraved TRANSPOSED, or should it be engraved as NON-transposed. Gregory ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
RegoR wrote: A subtle distinction needs to be drawn here. My objection is not as a bassoonist, but as a composer. As a bassoonist, I have no beef w. the clef at all--but as a composer, I find it an unnecessary complication of the notational system. Andrew, Your point has been clearly made, and as a composer, I can agree with your reasoning, but then, as an instrumentalist, do you feel that it then becomes the duty of the copyist to satisify the needs of the performer and engrave the music using the clefs that are more comfortable for a performer to use? Also, do you feel that the full score should be engraved only in Treble and Bass Clefs, or should it be engraved to reflect the parts as they are written for the performer. If the latter, does this also mean that a score should be engraved TRANSPOSED, or should it be engraved as NON-transposed. I'm not Andrew, but I'll weigh in on these questions: Yes, I think the engraver should make the parts most easily read by the performer, but that should be done only with the consent of the client (most likely the composer, but possibly the publisher.) If that means using different clefs because of the nature of the instrument or the performing situation, then they should be used. The score should be engraved to reflect the parts as they are written for the performer -- speaking as a conductor, I find it a terrible waste of time when I have no clue what the performer is looking at because the score is engraved one way and the parts are different. I hate the band world's use of condensed scores for that same reason -- when a performer isn't sure about a note and asks what the pitch or the rhythm should be, if I don't have an exact copy of what that part looks like, it often takes me a few moments of valuable rehearsal time to work out the problem. Worst of all are the 2-staff piano scores which don't even include all the cues. I like the fully transposed scores, so I am looking at EXACTLY what the performer is looking at. That way we can discuss any problem in either notation or performance clearly and precisely. Conductors worthy of the name should be able (in my opinion) to work from a transposed score and figure out the concert-pitch sounds from that. I've seen cases of non-transposed scores, back in the pre-computer days, when a transposed part would have a measure or two engraved where the engraver forgot to transpose and left those measures in concert pitch. What a waste of time, resolving the but it's printed in my part and that's what I played / it's printed concert pitch, you need to transpose those two measures issues. They're not common, thank goodness, but if the score is transposed, the parts are more likely to be correct, in my experience. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 17, 2005, at 5:59 AM, RegoR wrote: ...as an instrumentalist, do you feel that it then becomes the duty of the copyist to satisify the needs of the performer and engrave the music using the clefs that are more comfortable for a performer to use? In my experience, the vast majority of copyists regard it as their duty to literally copy exactly what they find in the score when extracting parts. There are many places where a composer changes clefs merely to save vertical space in the score, and you will never see those changes overridden by the copyist. I think, frankly, that in the case of a dead composer (who cannot be consulted RE any proposed revision), that a bright line needs to be maintained between the functions of a copyist and those of an editor. And even w. living composers, the default should always be the exact transfer of score notation into the extracted part, unless a particular item warrants a query. Also, do you feel that the full score should be engraved only in Treble and Bass Clefs, or should it be engraved to reflect the parts as they are written for the performer. I believe that, transposition issues aside, the score should reflect exactly what the composer wants to appear in the parts--precisely because of the reason stated above. When I avoid tenor clef in a score, I avoid it in the parts as well. If the latter, does this also mean that a score should be engraved TRANSPOSED, or should it be engraved as NON-transposed. An interesting point, that has been too little discussed. In my own work I write transposed scores for pieces where details of instrumental writing are particularly important (special fingerings, e.g.), and concert scores where complex pitch issues prevail. With a concert-pitch score, the copyist will need to exercise more initiative than usual in deciding clef change issues, because quite obviously instruments with big transpositions will have parts that lie entirely differently on the staff in the part than in the score. An interesting example of this issue is raised by the Schoenberg wind quintet. The score, in concert pitch, just specifies clarinet without giving a key. Since the part descends to tenor d-flat, the extracted part was made for clarinet in A, though there is no hint that Schoenberg actually required that and the decision seems to have been the copyist's. Since my full-Boehm Bb clarinet has a low Eb key, I felt no compunction about using it for this piece instead, but I had to copy out the part a half-step up for me to play it. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 17 Apr 2005 at 11:43, Andrew Stiller wrote: With a concert-pitch score, the copyist will need to exercise more initiative than usual in deciding clef change issues, because quite obviously instruments with big transpositions will have parts that lie entirely differently on the staff in the part than in the score. I don't quite understand the distinction between engraver and copyist inherent in your discussion. In these days of Finale, isn't the engraver of the score the same as the copyist of the parts? Is it not the case that the engraver of both then has to act as editor and create parts that are most likely to produce the best performance with the least amount of confusion? Why shouldn't the conductor get the same consideration as the performers? -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 17, 2005, at 4:33 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 17 Apr 2005 at 11:43, Andrew Stiller wrote: With a concert-pitch score, the copyist will need to exercise more initiative than usual in deciding clef change issues, because quite obviously instruments with big transpositions will have parts that lie entirely differently on the staff in the part than in the score. I don't quite understand the distinction between engraver and copyist inherent in your discussion. In these days of Finale, isn't the engraver of the score the same as the copyist of the parts? Is it not the case that the engraver of both then has to act as editor and create parts that are most likely to produce the best performance with the least amount of confusion? Why shouldn't the conductor get the same consideration as the performers? Well, you see, I agree with your point! We hammered out concert vs. transposed scores on this list a few months (years?) ago, and I still harbour the feeling that there will never be any confusion if the score matches the parts in all ways, including clefs and transpositions. But some feel that the score should be optimised in the way that the conductor will understand it best, even if some things are different. I'm holding back on a final judgement on that question... But Andrew's point was, I think, that all decisions , even small ones relating to clefs, are supposed to rest in the hands of the composer, (with the input of the editor) who is supposed to be an authority on effective communication with the musicians through the score; whereas the copyist/engraver is supposed to mold himself to the composer's wishes. It's just that in the real world often there is no editor, so the copyist/engraver has to be editor as well. I would actually welcome advice given from an editor or a copyist, as they have seen way more scores than I have and probably have a more critical eye with regards to notation details. On the occasions I have used a copyist, the questions he asked clarified things in my mind that I hadn't been aware of before, like exactly where I wanted hairpins to start and end, along with ending dynamics to a hairpin, and exactly where text had to be associated, and whether a more economical piece of text he came up with could replace my more wordy one. I wish I was always working in a team like that; it would make us both stronger. I guess this list takes the place of day-to-day interaction with colleagues in my musical life. At least, as regards notation... Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
In a message dated 16/04/2005 05:32:48 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Eg. Name a horn player who can't read all clefs and transpose on sight from one tonality to another. I can't read all clefs fluently nor do I know anyone who can, for the same reason that violinists (generally speaking) can't read from horn in Eb parts - simply because we are never called upon to do it. I can however transpose all keys at sight and without problem. In order to read the different clefs (something which I have never been called to do in 30 years playing) I would do it by relating it to a transposition. The only clefs which I come across are treble and bass (which are standard)and once when I was asked to play a trombone part, tenor. I once, when I was 18, borrowed a viola part in alto clef to give myself something to do in a youth orchestra rehearsal. All the best Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg"http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
In a message dated 16/04/2005 08:56:22 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: A lot of musicians (at least over here) do precisely the opposite: they transpose by mentally changing the clef. Vive la difference! All the best, Lawrence þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
Carl Dershem wrote: [snip] True enough. But if you look at trombonists as a whole, the vast majority *are* jazz/commercial players, and the extraordinary majority of them either come from jazz band/concert band settings (where bass and treble clef are in extreme majority) or from similar settings. Actually, if we're looking at trombonists as a whole, the largest majority of trombonists are amateurs who play everything from jazz and dance band to concert band, community orchestra and brass ensemble, and ethnic music such as Klezmer or German Band music. Far more amateurs than professionals, many of whom are quite comfortable with tenor clef, but the vast majority of them are only comfortable in bass clef. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
Somebody wrote: No concert band player, no jazz player, and no orchestral player below college level will ever see tenor clef, and will stop dead and refuse to attempt reading it. Will you people stop making generalizations which just show how ignorant you really are outside of your little circle of experience. No is pretty extreme to say, unless you personally know of every trombone player in the entire world. I have a trombone student who is in 8th grade, learning tenor clef quite easily and eagerly, thank you very much. She is a musical sponge, absorbing everything I explain to her, and a whole lot more. I have another young student (also in 8th grade at a different school) who has already learned quite well flute (her main instrument), clarinet, sax (she plays this in the school jazz band), and bassoon. She does take lessons from time to time with a working professional bassoonist to get a different perspective on the bassoon technical issues. She, also, is learning tenor clef and is doing quite well. I will be teaching both of these young ladies to read alto clef to fill out their reading of the 4 most widely used clefs, as well as making sure they are comfortable reading treble clef on their trombone and bassoon respectively. So please, whoever made that rash generalization, don't be so sure of yourself. I'm just one private music teacher in an out-of-the-way city in southern New Hampshire and I've got TWO students who are doing the very thing you categorically state that NOBODY their age would do. I am sure if you extrapolate my numbers and take into account all the hundreds of thousands of private teachers in the U.S. alone, many in major metropolitan areas where there are more youth orchestras and school orchestras (there are only 4 school orchestras in my entire state, and only 3 youth orchestras) you will find that there are a lot more young people willing, eager, and able to learn to read the very clefs that you are so confident that NOBODY their age would ever want to learn, than your limited experience would indicate. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
I teach my tormbone pupils to read treble, tenor and bass clefs. I expect them to be comfortable in all three by the time they leave me at 16 years old. All the best, Lawrence "þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg"http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
At 8:39 AM -0400 4/16/05, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I teach my tormbone pupils to read treble, tenor and bass clefs. I expect them to be comfortable in all three by the time they leave me at 16 years old. Good for you! Both you and David Bailey point out the major difference in background: first, the students you cite are taking private lessons, which the vast majority of middle and high school instrumentalists do not. Second, and even more important, they are taking private lessons with teachers whose mindset is not, good enough for band is good enough! There's a big world out there, with a lot of different musical styles and notational conventions to learn to deal with, and yes, middle school students who care can learn anything you choose to teach them! (Including reading from hand manuscript, another point of resistance for some people!!) But exceptions, no matter how individually brilliant and satisfactory, only emphasize the average. And the average, who only play in band and do not take lessons, will very seldom see the alternate clefs traditionally used by conservatory-trained players of their instruments. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 16, 2005, at 9:18 AM, John Howell wrote: But exceptions, no matter how individually brilliant and satisfactory, only emphasize the average. And the average, who only play in band and do not take lessons, will very seldom see the alternate clefs traditionally used by conservatory-trained players of their instruments. And so, the C clefs are NOT disappearing, but have a healthy life outside North American high schools and jazz/commercial band parts. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
d. collins wrote: [EMAIL PROTECTED] écrit: I can however transpose all keys at sight and without problem. In order to read the different clefs (something which I have never been called to do in 30 years playing) I would do it by relating it to a transposition. A lot of musicians (at least over here) do precisely the opposite: they transpose by mentally changing the clef. A matter of tradition and practice, perhaps? cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
dhbailey wrote: Carl Dershem wrote: True enough. But if you look at trombonists as a whole, the vast majority *are* jazz/commercial players, and the extraordinary majority of them either come from jazz band/concert band settings (where bass and treble clef are in extreme majority) or from similar settings. Actually, if we're looking at trombonists as a whole, the largest majority of trombonists are amateurs who play everything from jazz and dance band to concert band, community orchestra and brass ensemble, and ethnic music such as Klezmer or German Band music. Far more amateurs than professionals, many of whom are quite comfortable with tenor clef, but the vast majority of them are only comfortable in bass clef. Not in my experience, but then, we obviously come from far different places and backgrounds. vive le difference. cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
Carl Dershem wrote: dhbailey wrote: Carl Dershem wrote: True enough. But if you look at trombonists as a whole, the vast majority *are* jazz/commercial players, and the extraordinary majority of them either come from jazz band/concert band settings (where bass and treble clef are in extreme majority) or from similar settings. Actually, if we're looking at trombonists as a whole, the largest majority of trombonists are amateurs who play everything from jazz and dance band to concert band, community orchestra and brass ensemble, and ethnic music such as Klezmer or German Band music. Far more amateurs than professionals, many of whom are quite comfortable with tenor clef, but the vast majority of them are only comfortable in bass clef. Not in my experience, but then, we obviously come from far different places and backgrounds. But you said as a whole not in my sphere of contact which is very different. I'm not just referring to my place and background, either. Look around your city and you'll find far more amateur trombonists than professional trombonists. -- David H. Bailey [EMAIL PROTECTED] ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 15, 2005, at 2:10 PM, Michael Cook wrote: Andrew, can you tell me what edition of Brahms 4 you have and where the 1st bassoon part is written with ledger lines below the tenor clef? Kalmus. The bn1 part dips below the tenor staff (just barely--no ledger lines) in the slow mvt., m. 69--admittedly, that's the only place. Now, as for the cello. I took Schoenberg's _Variations for Orchestra_ off the shelf as a test case and find the vc. descending below the tenor staff at m. 386. I expect that the vast majority of such exceptional excursions would be in divisis (as here) or in multiple stops. Interestingly enough, the same piece sends the vc. below the *treble* staff in two other places--as low as the Bb below middle C. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 15, 2005, at 2:43 PM, RegoR wrote: As another bassoonist on the list, and contrary to Andrew, I have no dislikes as to music written in the tenor clef. A subtle distinction needs to be drawn here. My objection is not as a bassoonist, but as a composer. As a bassoonist, I have no beef w. the clef at all--but as a composer, I find it an unnecessary complication of the notational system. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 15 Apr 2005 at 10:12, Andrew Stiller wrote: The 8bassa notation hasn't been traditional for a century and a half. The cello arrangement of the Rachmaninoff Vocalise uses it, and that was unquestionably published less than 150 years ago, since the original work didn't exist 150 years ago. -- David W. Fenton Certainly. But Rachmaninoff's use of the convention was by then no more traditional than Hindemith's use of the viola d'amore. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
dhbailey wrote: Carl Dershem wrote: dhbailey wrote: Carl Dershem wrote: True enough. But if you look at trombonists as a whole, the vast majority *are* jazz/commercial players, and the extraordinary majority of them either come from jazz band/concert band settings (where bass and treble clef are in extreme majority) or from similar settings. Actually, if we're looking at trombonists as a whole, the largest majority of trombonists are amateurs who play everything from jazz and dance band to concert band, community orchestra and brass ensemble, and ethnic music such as Klezmer or German Band music. Far more amateurs than professionals, many of whom are quite comfortable with tenor clef, but the vast majority of them are only comfortable in bass clef. Not in my experience, but then, we obviously come from far different places and backgrounds. But you said as a whole not in my sphere of contact which is very different. I'm not just referring to my place and background, either. Look around your city and you'll find far more amateur trombonists than professional trombonists. Yup. And I know a lot of them, both as a player and as a teacher. And many have never *heard* of tenor and alto clefs, much less played them. There are probably a few hundred trombone players here (past high school band, but still playing), and I've met and/or played with 150-200 of them in the past 35 years. Even so, other than the bare handful (maybe a couple of dozen) who either play the symphony/ballet/opera circuit or aspire to it (city of about 7 million, with only a 30-40 players of that type), most neither know nor care about that kind of playing, or the techniqes involved. Even the players at the universities and colleges tend to put it behind them once out of school, unless they want to play in the abovementioned circuit, and have good enough connections to think they have a chance. The rest of them/us work jazz/commercial/rock/concert band/pit gigs, and as I said, I've never run across anything but bass and treble clefs in 20 years as a trombonist, and 35 as a professional musician. And that includes 5 years in LA doing commercials and jingles and that kind of work. Your experience may be different. I've only been doing this a while, and in a limited venue (NOT!!) - never been to Europe, never spent time on the east coast other than navy band time, so I can't speak of that. But in the here and now (California, 1970 - present) that is my experience. cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 16 Apr 2005 at 15:28, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:59 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 15 Apr 2005 at 10:12, Andrew Stiller wrote: The 8bassa notation hasn't been traditional for a century and a half. The cello arrangement of the Rachmaninoff Vocalise uses it, and that was unquestionably published less than 150 years ago, since the original work didn't exist 150 years ago. Certainly. But Rachmaninoff's use of the convention was by then no more traditional than Hindemith's use of the viola d'amore. First off, it's not Rachmaninoff's arrangement (it's by one of the famous cellists of the 1st half of the 20th century whose name escapes me at the moment). Secondly, I made a careful statement about *publications*, not about composers or compositions, which you have chosen to dispute with an assertion about compositional practice. Both our two positions are probably true since they are actual orthogonal to each other. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
In a message dated 16/04/2005 14:19:15 GMT Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: first, the students you cite are taking private lessons, which the vast majority of middle and high school instrumentalists do not. No - I teach in high schools, not private lessons. We used to run an internal exam system - when our students reached our Grade 5 (the equivalent of Grade 4 of the Associated Board) those trombone players who had started to learn in treble clef had to present one piece in bass clef and vice versa. For those who had started in treble clef, tenor clef was not a problem - they simply read it as treble clef and change the key signature. All the best, Lawrence þaes ofereode - þisses swa maeg http://lawrenceyates.co.uk ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 14 avr. 05, at 22:57, Darcy James Argue wrote: Lots of violin and viola passages are almost entirely above the staff. I don't have that Beethoven Sonata in front of me, but so long as it does not go above an A4 (i.e., three ledger lines in bass clef), my own instinct would be to leave it in bass clef. This is one of the differences between cello and violin parts. The passage isn't specially high: the highest notes are Bs, which would have four ledger lines in bass clef. For a violinist, seeing this number of ledger lines above the staff for an extended period is completely normal. For a cellist it would be unusual. This passage just fits nicely into the upper half of the tenor clef, with just a ledger line or two from time to time. Do three ledger lines above bass clef really throw off many cellists? (Not a rhetorical question -- I'm quite curious. FWIW, the cellists I've worked with have all been fine with it.) No, three or even four ledger lines above bass clef don't throw cellists. What I said was that cellists rarely see more than three ledger lines above the staff. It really is a question of habit: once you've learnt the tenor clef, you prefer seeing a passage written in tenor clef with few ledger lines to seeing the same passage written in bass clef with many. It just feels more comfortable. As to the 8vb treble clef: yes cellists do have to learn it, but it's a bore. It's only a step away from tenor clef and tenor clef fits the cello better: you get the open D and A strings on staff lines, just as in the bass clef. Michael Cook ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 14, 2005, at 3:24 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: While I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using tenor clef very often in cello parts, since, as you say, bass clef is fine up to around G4 -- at which point, why switch to tenor clef when you're already up in the middle of the treble clef? As a bassoonist and composer, I never, ever, write the tenor clef, though of course I can read it fluently. Any professional bassoonist, cellist, or trombonist will know how to read the treble clef, and IMO the tenor clef should be retired permanently. In my youth, I tried to get rid of the alto clef too, but the violists weren't having any... Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 14, 2005, at 3:51 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Are you talking about [cello] treble clef at pitch or treble 8bassa, the traditional notation? The 8bassa notation hasn't been traditional for a century and a half. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 14, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Michael Cook wrote: A basic rule to follow for cello parts is to avoid ledger lines _below_ the staff in treble and tenor clefs: notes below the staff look like low notes and cellists tend to automatically move to the C-string when they see them. I'm not at all sure this is true. As a bassoonist I see notes below the tenor staff all the time. I see them right now in the Brahms 4th 1st-bn part I'm playing in the Lower Merion Symphony. They are admittedly a bit disorienting, but they're utterly traditional, and it's my job to read them, expertly and w.o complaint. More than two ledger lines down--now that *would* be a solecism. I recently published a piece by Lejaren Hiller (his _Minuet and Trio_) in which the cello part includes several lyrical, moving passages that are extremely high and extremely disjunct. Rather than switch clefs for single eighth notes, he fearlessly writes isolated notes as low a tenor c without leaving the treble clef. As an editor, my first reaction was to overrule him, but when I saw what the alternative would look like, I realized he was right. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 14, 2005, at 5:48 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: 8vb treble clef notation for cello is no longer used. You mean, in modern editions. No, he means in modern (and late Romantic) *compositions.* Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 15 Apr 2005, at 10:06 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Apr 14, 2005, at 3:24 PM, Darcy James Argue wrote: While I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using tenor clef very often in cello parts, since, as you say, bass clef is fine up to around G4 -- at which point, why switch to tenor clef when you're already up in the middle of the treble clef? As a bassoonist and composer, I never, ever, write the tenor clef, though of course I can read it fluently. Any professional bassoonist, cellist, or trombonist will know how to read the treble clef, and IMO the tenor clef should be retired permanently. Makes sense to me. (Counting the seconds until the howls of outrage begin... ) - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 15, 2005, at 11:21 AM, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 15 Apr 2005, at 10:06 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote: As a bassoonist and composer, I never, ever, write the tenor clef, though of course I can read it fluently. Any professional bassoonist, cellist, or trombonist will know how to read the treble clef, and IMO the tenor clef should be retired permanently. Makes sense to me. (Counting the seconds until the howls of outrage begin... ) Well, this isn't a howl of outrage, but I find the tenor clef useful. If a part on bassoon, cello, or trombone sits consistently in a range where large numbers of ledger lines can be avoided in bass clef, I would use it. I concur, though, that constant clef changes are a pain, and a hindrance to concentration. I suspect that if the tenor clef were not available, then we would see many more clef changes to treble than if we had the passage written in tenor clef, so the tenor clef is certainly saving us clef changes. Another hindrance to eliminating tenor clef is that treble clef in trombone writing is so consistently associated with Bb treble clef band parts (and NOT with high concert-pitch passages) that I would certainly question a trombone part written in treble clef that I saw. ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
At 4/15/2005 11:46 AM, Christopher Smith wrote: Well, this isn't a howl of outrage, but I find the tenor clef useful. If a part on bassoon, cello, or trombone sits consistently in a range where large numbers of ledger lines can be avoided in bass clef, I would use it. Notice: I only know about treble clef instruments. But, flute (and clarinet) parts often range in multi-ledger zone places for long periods of time. I find that much easier to read, than, say, 8va basso. I would get totally lost in such a situation. So, I am wondering if this is also true of those above mentioned instrumentalists. Or are we only talking about professionals? Phil Daley AutoDesk http://www.conknet.com/~p_daley ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
I'm not saying that it's a hard and fast rule to avoid ledger lines below the staff in treble and tenor clefs in cello parts, just a basic rule: of course there are exceptions, as in examples such as the one Andrew gives. Of course it's better to put in a ledger line from time to time instead of changing clefs for just one note. But in my extensive library of cello music I'm hard put to find many notes written below the staff in tenor or treble clef. I don't have much bassoon music so I can't comment on possible subtle differences between bassoon and cello writing. Just out of interest: Andrew, can you tell me what edition of Brahms 4 you have and where the 1st bassoon part is written with ledger lines below the tenor clef? As to the idea of getting rid of tenor clef, try talking to a few cellists and see what they say. I find that it fits perfectly to a typical solo cello range where you basically stay most of the time up on the A-string, occasionally rocking over to the D-string. In my copy of Max Bruch's Kol Nidrei almost the whole cello part is written in tenor clef, with a few excursions into treble or bass. There's are many other pieces, or extended passages, where tenor is the most used clef and that is what feels best. Indeed, having leafed through a few more pieces I'm even surprised to see how much of cello music is written in tenor clef: I hadn't given this much thought until now, but for solo cello music you might well say that tenor is the main clef. Treble is used much more rarely. Michael Cook On Apr 15, 2005, at 16:23, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Apr 14, 2005, at 4:41 PM, Michael Cook wrote: A basic rule to follow for cello parts is to avoid ledger lines _below_ the staff in treble and tenor clefs: notes below the staff look like low notes and cellists tend to automatically move to the C-string when they see them. I'm not at all sure this is true. As a bassoonist I see notes below the tenor staff all the time. I see them right now in the Brahms 4th 1st-bn part I'm playing in the Lower Merion Symphony. They are admittedly a bit disorienting, but they're utterly traditional, and it's my job to read them, expertly and w.o complaint. More than two ledger lines down--now that *would* be a solecism. I recently published a piece by Lejaren Hiller (his _Minuet and Trio_) in which the cello part includes several lyrical, moving passages that are extremely high and extremely disjunct. Rather than switch clefs for single eighth notes, he fearlessly writes isolated notes as low a tenor c without leaving the treble clef. As an editor, my first reaction was to overrule him, but when I saw what the alternative would look like, I realized he was right. Andrew Stiller Kallisti Music Press http://home.netcom.com/~kallisti/ ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
I find that much easier to read, than, say, 8va basso. I would get totally lost in such a situation. So, I am wondering if this is also true of those above mentioned instrumentalists. As another bassoonist on the list, and contrary to Andrew, I have no dislikes as to music written in the tenor clef. However in general I prefer not to have things written in the trouble clef. That said, there are occasions where the treble clef is definitely more advantageous, like when the bassoon is hovering near E5. As to Phil's question about 8va or 8ba, personnally i dont like seeing them at all. What I see is what I want to play, and since many of the octave notes on the bassoon require completely different fingerings, it is more of a challenge than I enjoy dealing with. Gregory ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
At 11:21 AM -0400 4/15/05, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 15 Apr 2005, at 10:06 AM, Andrew Stiller wrote: As a bassoonist and composer, I never, ever, write the tenor clef, though of course I can read it fluently. Any professional bassoonist, cellist, or trombonist will know how to read the treble clef, and IMO the tenor clef should be retired permanently. Makes sense to me. (Counting the seconds until the howls of outrage begin... ) No howls, just a bit of history. The original reason for using movable clefs was to keep the music within the staff so the scribe wouldn't have to turn his pen sideways for the ledger lines. That's exactly how the fully-developed system of 9 clefs evolved. The original reason still seems to be valid. BUT, clearly one is uncomfortable with what one hasn't yet learned to read! John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
At 8:10 PM +0200 4/15/05, Michael Cook wrote: As to the idea of getting rid of tenor clef, try talking to a few cellists and see what they say. I find that it fits perfectly to a typical solo cello range where you basically stay most of the time up on the A-string, occasionally rocking over to the D-string. Don't underestimate the power of tradition over logic (or even personal opinion). If logic trumped tradition, we'd all be speaking Esperanto, and we're not! For older music, at least, instrumentalists have to learn to read their traditional alternate clefs fluently, and once they've learned that, why would they want not to use them? It's up to the composers and arrangers to overcome their inertia and improve their musicianship by learning to read them as well. Boulanger certainly thought so, and taught the 9 clefs. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 15 Apr 2005 at 10:06, Andrew Stiller wrote: In my youth, I tried to get rid of the alto clef too, but the violists weren't having any... I would say that this was a ridiculously stupid campaign on your part. The alto clef is completely essential to writing for instruments whose effective ranges straddle middle C. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 15 Apr 2005 at 10:12, Andrew Stiller wrote: On Apr 14, 2005, at 3:51 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: Are you talking about [cello] treble clef at pitch or treble 8bassa, the traditional notation? The 8bassa notation hasn't been traditional for a century and a half. The cello arrangement of the Rachmaninoff Vocalise uses it, and that was unquestionably published less than 150 years ago, since the original work didn't exist 150 years ago. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: I've been playing trombone professionally for nearly 20 years, and have run across 2 incidences of C-clef in all that time, both of them in college. (Comfortable with up to 5 leger lines up, and 4 down in bass clef - all a matter of practice - though playing both within a bar or 2 can be stressful). Then you must be a jazz/commercial player. I play trombone professionally as well, and see tenor constantly in the classical repertoire I play, even though I play bass trombone most of the time. Alto less often, because I rarely play first trombone, but the first trombonist in any classical group sees it a whole lot. For modern works tenor clef (rather than alto or treble) seems to be the clef of choice for high trombone parts. Jazz/commercial trombonists rarely see tenor clef, it's true. In fact, I've noticed that even guys who ARE completely comfortable with tenor clef in a classical idiom tend to stiffen up when they see jazz written in tenor clef. Yet they DON'T stiffen up when reading treble clef in Bb, on trombone. It seems to be a matter of what one is used to seeing, as all notation conventions are. For instruments that are pitched so that they are most comfortable (viola and such), C-clefs are still useful, but they are uncommon, and becoming increasingly so with the vast majority of the music field getting more and more simplified. No, you are wrong there, if you are talking about violas. Violists still read better in alto clef, and only in the case of the most amateur of arrangers do they read parts only in treble clef, unless it is really high. How many rock bands can read at all, much less in the more arcane clefs and keys? The very use of C-Clefs (generally only tenor and alto, any more) is becoming more and more of an academic issue, almost like arguing whether ancient greek or latin is a more useful language to learn. Once again, not true at all for viola in any age, and not true for other instruments if anyone ever wants to play old repertoire. Also, any cellist and bassoonist has thorough control of tenor clef, as they see it constantly in their day-to-day music, both traditional and modern repertoire. (Trombonists, of course, vary.) C clefs are far from merely academic, I assure you. Christopher ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 15 Apr 2005 at 17:50, Christopher Smith wrote: On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: How many rock bands can read at all, much less in the more arcane clefs and keys? The very use of C-Clefs (generally only tenor and alto, any more) is becoming more and more of an academic issue, almost like arguing whether ancient greek or latin is a more useful language to learn. Once again, not true at all for viola in any age, and not true for other instruments if anyone ever wants to play old repertoire. Also, any cellist and bassoonist has thorough control of tenor clef, as they see it constantly in their day-to-day music, both traditional and modern repertoire. (Trombonists, of course, vary.) C clefs are far from merely academic, I assure you. Actually, I read Carl as saying that the instruments that use the C clefs are vanishing, and when they vanish, the clefs will cease to be used. I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted to respond to the assertion or not. I don't know if Carl finds the possibility regrettable or not, or if he believes there will always be a small group of people preserving the obsolete instruments, as there are today with instruments like viola da gamba and fortepiano. If there are, it's a form of elitism, no doubt, which I think contrasts nicely against the alleged elitism of those who find it troubling that a composer writes for viola without understanding alto clef. One person's elitism seems to me to be another person's professionalism. If the latter is no longer respected or allowed, then $deity help us all. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
Christopher Smith wrote: On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: I've been playing trombone professionally for nearly 20 years, and have run across 2 incidences of C-clef in all that time, both of them in college. (Comfortable with up to 5 leger lines up, and 4 down in bass clef - all a matter of practice - though playing both within a bar or 2 can be stressful). Then you must be a jazz/commercial player. I play trombone professionally as well, and see tenor constantly in the classical repertoire I play, even though I play bass trombone most of the time. Alto less often, because I rarely play first trombone, but the first trombonist in any classical group sees it a whole lot. For modern works tenor clef (rather than alto or treble) seems to be the clef of choice for high trombone parts. Yes, I prefer to make money at it, rather than playing in the very few 'classical and other old music styles. Done lots of dance work, jazz, and pt work, as well as commercials and jingles and the like, and *in that idiom* have never run across any C-Clef. And of the many, many trombonists I work with and know socially (yes, I know associating with trombonists can be a bad idea) few work in areas where it's needed. The same is true of the vast majority of college players I know. It's only the small handful of legit players I know who even give a hoot about C-clefs, and many of them couldn't handle a jazz gig if you handed it to them. A matter of what you're used to, once again. Jazz/commercial trombonists rarely see tenor clef, it's true. In fact, I've noticed that even guys who ARE completely comfortable with tenor clef in a classical idiom tend to stiffen up when they see jazz written in tenor clef. Yet they DON'T stiffen up when reading treble clef in Bb, on trombone. It seems to be a matter of what one is used to seeing, as all notation conventions are. True enough. But if you look at trombonists as a whole, the vast majority *are* jazz/commercial players, and the extraordinary majority of them either come from jazz band/concert band settings (where bass and treble clef are in extreme majority) or from similar settings. For instruments that are pitched so that they are most comfortable (viola and such), C-clefs are still useful, but they are uncommon, and becoming increasingly so with the vast majority of the music field getting more and more simplified. No, you are wrong there, if you are talking about violas. Violists still read better in alto clef, and only in the case of the most amateur of arrangers do they read parts only in treble clef, unless it is really high. Did I specify violas only? Or just Tenor clef? Nope. How many rock bands can read at all, much less in the more arcane clefs and keys? The very use of C-Clefs (generally only tenor and alto, any more) is becoming more and more of an academic issue, almost like arguing whether ancient greek or latin is a more useful language to learn. Once again, not true at all for viola in any age, and not true for other instruments if anyone ever wants to play old repertoire. Also, any cellist and bassoonist has thorough control of tenor clef, as they see it constantly in their day-to-day music, both traditional and modern repertoire. (Trombonists, of course, vary.) C clefs are far from merely academic, I assure you. Hmmm... where did my use of C-clefs not apply to those instruments? I specified Alto and Tenor clefs, both of which are C-clefs Not that I've spent much time with violas - I leave my string section arranging to fiddle players to fine-tune, as I *know* it's not one of my strengths. But as is true of many in my position, I can come up with ideas and then trust a fiddle player to know what layes best for whom. Again, all a matter of need and experience. Christopher cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
David W. Fenton wrote: On 15 Apr 2005 at 17:50, Christopher Smith wrote: On Apr 15, 2005, at 3:40 PM, Carl Dershem wrote: How many rock bands can read at all, much less in the more arcane clefs and keys? The very use of C-Clefs (generally only tenor and alto, any more) is becoming more and more of an academic issue, almost like arguing whether ancient greek or latin is a more useful language to learn. Once again, not true at all for viola in any age, and not true for other instruments if anyone ever wants to play old repertoire. Also, any cellist and bassoonist has thorough control of tenor clef, as they see it constantly in their day-to-day music, both traditional and modern repertoire. (Trombonists, of course, vary.) C clefs are far from merely academic, I assure you. Actually, I read Carl as saying that the instruments that use the C clefs are vanishing, and when they vanish, the clefs will cease to be used. I wasn't sure whether or not I wanted to respond to the assertion or not. I don't know if Carl finds the possibility regrettable or not, or if he believes there will always be a small group of people preserving the obsolete instruments, as there are today with instruments like viola da gamba and fortepiano. If there are, it's a form of elitism, no doubt, which I think contrasts nicely against the alleged elitism of those who find it troubling that a composer writes for viola without understanding alto clef. One person's elitism seems to me to be another person's professionalism. If the latter is no longer respected or allowed, then $deity help us all. Not stating any form of preference either way - just observing the increased lack of use of those clefs. So far, the vast majority of arguments *for* either deals with old music (violas de gamba, etc.), or with the few orchestral instruments sadly being lost to syntesizers more and more (violas and entire string sections). I must admit that most of the music I listen to does not predate the 19th century, so the 'older stuff' is not something I would miss very much were it to vanish, but I far prefer working with *real* string players (and bassoonists, etc.) to working with synthesizers, and I do like many of the musicians who play the olders stuff. No elitism involved, unless you prefer to percieve it as such. If that is true, then pfui on your whole argument. cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
At 12:40 PM -0700 4/15/05, Carl Dershem wrote: John Howell wrote: No howls, just a bit of history. The original reason for using movable clefs was to keep the music within the staff so the scribe wouldn't have to turn his pen sideways for the ledger lines. That's exactly how the fully-developed system of 9 clefs evolved. The original reason still seems to be valid. BUT, clearly one is uncomfortable with what one hasn't yet learned to read! Well, there's very little call for most of the clefs, which makes reading them a skill that is little taught, and less used for more and more people. Little taught in the U.S., certainly. I wouldn't generalize about Europe, though. The thing is, there is so much music that was written in times when the 9 clefs WERE used, that when you want to study that music you have to have the tools to do so. So yes, if you consider musicology as an academic issue, the skills have to be learned at the college or grad school level, but they have to be learned. You can't read Bach keyboard scores without knowing soprano clef. You can't read many Renaissance scores without knowing, at minimum, soprano, mezzosoprano, alto, tenor, baritone and bass clefs. The choral parts to the original edition of Brahms' requiem and virtually all of Bach's original scores are in soprano, alto, tenor and bass clefs. And of course once you CAN read the clefs, you can use them for instant transposition. I felt much more secure about reading the notes for horn in F when I figured out that it's the same as mezzo-soprano clef. I've been playing trombone professionally for nearly 20 years, and have run across 2 incidences of C-clef in all that time, both of them in college. I would have to infer from this that your professional playing has not involved the playing of standard orchestral literature, since virtually all symphony parts prior to the 20th century were written for alto, tenor and bass trombones and written in alto, tenor and bass clefs. And tenor (if not alto) is certainly used in the standard solo literature. But your point is very well taken: whether you need the clefs depends entirely on what you do in music. No concert band player, no jazz player, and no orchestral player below college level will ever see tenor clef, and will stop dead and refuse to attempt reading it. I'm doing my annual job of recruiting a volunteer orchestra for our annual summer musical, and just got a young bassoon player who at least understands the idea of tenor clef and can learn on the job, since tenor clef IS used in Broadway books for bassoon and cello, if not for trombone. His teacher recommended him over another player who has refused to learn tenor clef. But your first-person observations are appreciated. That's where we learn from one another. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
John Howell wrote: No concert band player, no jazz player, and no orchestral player below college level will ever see tenor clef, and will stop dead and refuse to attempt reading it. This is, perhaps, our one disagreement. Were I to find an area where I would find reading it useful, I'd do so. It's just that that has not arisen. But I've read some bizarre stuff! :) But your first-person observations are appreciated. That's where we learn from one another. Thank you. I agree entirely. John cd ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
For instruments that are pitched so that they are most comfortable (viola and such), C-clefs are still useful, but they are uncommon, and becoming increasingly so with the vast majority of the music field getting more and more simplified. Ouch, this sounds like exactly what the world is complaining about... globalization based on the american standard After that inflamatory statement, I am an american who has passed the majority of his working career in Europe. In france you will find ALL musicians have learned ALL the clefs and are proficient in sightreading. Where the clefs really come in handy is for quick transposition. Eg. Name a horn player who can't read all clefs and transpose on sight from one tonality to another. The clefs are an indispensible tool of the trade. Our problem is our colleagues who do the dishonor of NOT teaching the tools needed to the future musicians. Perhaps there are some out there who will say that clefs are passe, but in that train of thought, so is the orchestra and the instruments whose origins are more than a couple of years. It is like Louis XIV furniture. Perhaps it is a bit demode for contemporary standards, but it sure can be beautiful. Gregory ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
[Finale] Re: clef changes
off the top of my head, a survey of literature shows: VC: use of bass clef up to isolated G's and A's (A played as a harmonic is usually notated in bass clef), around which point the tenor is used (especially if more than three or four notes warrant its use); treble clef as soon as it hits even one C, regardless of surrounding notes. VLA: up to G quite common in alto clef; i don't recall seeing a specific note (A or B) which immediately invokes the treble clef... obviously there are exceptions in the literature, but off the top of my head, this is what i've seen. as mentioned by others, better to avoid excessive clef changes if possible, and avoid low notes in treble clef. jef -- shirling neueweise \/ new music notation specialists mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
Hey Jef, Thanks -- the cello question is actually more interesting to me. While I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using tenor clef very often in cello parts, since, as you say, bass clef is fine up to around G4 -- at which point, why switch to tenor clef when you're already up in the middle of the treble clef? And, as you say, as soon as it hits even one C(5) -- treble clef. So basically, tenor clef is useful for parts that lie mostly above G4 but not above B4. That's a rather limited set of circumstances. I've usually found myself just staying in bass clef up to A4, and then switching straight to treble clef at B4 and above. No complaints so far. It seems desirable to me as a general principle to limit the number of clef changes in any part, and to only switch to a new clef when absolutely necessary. Going back and forth between *three* different clefs in a cello part seems excessive to me, even if that is the tradition. But I'm curious what others on the list think of this. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY On 14 Apr 2005, at 2:35 PM, shirling neueweise wrote: off the top of my head, a survey of literature shows: VC: use of bass clef up to isolated G's and A's (A played as a harmonic is usually notated in bass clef), around which point the tenor is used (especially if more than three or four notes warrant its use); treble clef as soon as it hits even one C, regardless of surrounding notes. VLA: up to G quite common in alto clef; i don't recall seeing a specific note (A or B) which immediately invokes the treble clef... obviously there are exceptions in the literature, but off the top of my head, this is what i've seen. as mentioned by others, better to avoid excessive clef changes if possible, and avoid low notes in treble clef. jef -- shirling neueweise \/ new music notation specialists mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] :.../ http://newmusicnotation.com ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 14 Apr 2005 at 15:24, Darcy James Argue wrote: Thanks -- the cello question is actually more interesting to me. While I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using tenor clef very often in cello parts, since, as you say, bass clef is fine up to around G4 -- at which point, why switch to tenor clef when you're already up in the middle of the treble clef? And, as you say, as soon as it hits even one C(5) -- treble clef. Are you talking about treble clef at pitch or treble 8bassa, the traditional notation? So basically, tenor clef is useful for parts that lie mostly above G4 but not above B4. That's a rather limited set of circumstances. I've usually found myself just staying in bass clef up to A4, and then switching straight to treble clef at B4 and above. No complaints so far. It seems desirable to me as a general principle to limit the number of clef changes in any part, and to only switch to a new clef when absolutely necessary. Going back and forth between *three* different clefs in a cello part seems excessive to me, even if that is the tradition. But I'm curious what others on the list think of this. Well, I'm not a cellist (I'm a viola da gambist), and for me the relevant clefs are bass clef and alto clef. The issue is not really the range of an instrument or of an idividual note. It is all about the shape of a particular musical passage. You don't want to break it up with clef changes, so any coherent musical passage should remain in one clef. But you also don't want it to be hard to read because of ledger lines. Thus, you can't have a hard and fast rule based on any single note -- the choice of the notated clef has to be based on musical context. The hardest thing is determining exactly when the clef change should occur. The worst thing to do is to put it in a place that visually misrepresents the passage, e.g., where the notes before and after the clef change appear a step apart, when in actuality they are much further apart -- an example would be from a bass clef B to an alto clef B, which looks like a step up, but is a full octave. Especially dangerous is a clef change where the staff line for both notes is exactly the same. My rule is to try to make sure that the relative motion on the staff lines is in the same direction as the actual motion, whenever possible. This means avoiding the change from bass to alto for any interval less than an octave up, for example. And I'm also with whoever said that they have some doubts about the suitability of a viola part written by someone who knows so little about the instrument as to have notated it in treble clef. Sounds like the composer really wants a violin (with an extra string), rather than a viola. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
And there was one other thing I wanted to say in my last post and forgot: The higher clef tends to suggest to a player a soloistic role. This is obviously not a necessity, but in instruments that mostly play in the bass clef (cello, gamba), a move to a different clef often represents a passage that lies up in the highly expressive and soloistic register of the instrument, often involving the higher and more difficult positions on the upper strings. So, I would suggest staying in the instrument's default clef except when the passage is soloistic or unless it would be otherwise fiendishly difficult to read. Of course, for viola da gamba, the question is: what is the default clef? It's not so clearcut as with cello or viola. There are actually two different functions for the gamba, a solo instrument (division viol) and a non-solo instrument (consort viol). The division viol is usually built to be slightly smaller than the consort viol, and designed to sound best on the top 4 strings. The fingerboard is also going to extend further up towards the bridge than is required for a mere consort bass. The consort instrument, on the other hand, is going to be built to sound best on the bottom 4 strings, and with the assumption that it's going to be playing the role of bass instrument in most of its playing. So, bass clef is associated with the musical role of bass instrument, while alto clef is associated with the role of a soloist. Of course, there's the added complication that basses often end up playing tenor viol parts (there aren't enough tenor viol players to go around), and because the repertory also has a substantial body of works in which there are parts that would fall very low on a tenor viol (the bottom two strings of both treble and tenor viol are not very reliable from instrument to instrument; on most garden-variety instruments, the bottom string is useless, and on many cheapo instruments both of the bottom two strings are completely useless; it's the rare treble or tenor where both bottom strings are musically usable), but work beautifully on the bass. But those parts are written exclusively in the alto clef (since the common practice is that they were played on either bass or tenor). So, in addition to absolute range, you have to consider the musical function of a passage within the context of the given piece, since the clefs have generalized associations. And that's my guess as to why the tenor clef is used in the cello repertory -- as a possible marker of a switch to a soloistic function. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 14 Apr 2005, at 4:41 PM, Michael Cook wrote: I'm looking at the Scherzo of Beethoven's 3rd Sonata for Cello and Piano (an old Peters edition). Measures 33 to 75 are all in tenor clef. If they were in bass clef the passage would look weirdly high: almost the whole passage would be above the staff. But is that really a problem? Lots of violin and viola passages are almost entirely above the staff. I don't have that Beethoven Sonata in front of me, but so long as it does not go above an A4 (i.e., three ledger lines in bass clef), my own instinct would be to leave it in bass clef. If you put it into treble clef there would be a lot of notes below the staff, which isn't good (see above). Right, I understand that -- I never have ledger lines below the staff in treble clef on cello parts. It's all a question of habit. With the three clefs, cellists rarely see more than three ledger lines above the staff and two below. Do three ledger lines above bass clef really throw off many cellists? (Not a rhetorical question -- I'm quite curious. FWIW, the cellists I've worked with have all been fine with it.) - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 14 Apr 2005, at 3:51 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 14 Apr 2005 at 15:24, Darcy James Argue wrote: Thanks -- the cello question is actually more interesting to me. While I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using tenor clef very often in cello parts, since, as you say, bass clef is fine up to around G4 -- at which point, why switch to tenor clef when you're already up in the middle of the treble clef? And, as you say, as soon as it hits even one C(5) -- treble clef. Are you talking about treble clef at pitch Yes. or treble 8bassa, the traditional notation? 8vb treble clef notation for cello is no longer used. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
At 3:51 PM -0400 4/14/05, David W. Fenton wrote: Are you talking about treble clef at pitch or treble 8bassa, the traditional notation? Thank you, David. That's exactly the problem with using treble for cello. There are historical precedents for two different practices, as there are, as well, for bass clef bass clarinet and bass clef horn. The player has to know (for historical music) or guess (for today's music) which practice to follow. Like David, I'm a viola da gamba player and not a cellist. A few years ago I had the right people in my Early Music Ensemble to play the Brandenburg with violas and gambas. Unfortunately the editor of the edition we had had oh so helpfully put the viol parts in tenor clef--because of course they would be played by cellos nowadays, wouldn't they? Rather than recopying them back into alto clef, the other player and I determined that we'd learn to play them in tenor clef, and we did. The point, if any, is that editorial decisions can be smart in one context and stupid in another, and the choosing the wrong clef for an instrument can put unneeded barriers in the way of making music. John -- John Susie Howell Virginia Tech Department of Music Blacksburg, Virginia, U.S.A 24061-0240 Vox (540) 231-8411 Fax (540) 231-5034 (mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]) http://www.music.vt.edu/faculty/howell/howell.html ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 14 Apr 2005 at 16:59, Darcy James Argue wrote: On 14 Apr 2005, at 3:51 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 14 Apr 2005 at 15:24, Darcy James Argue wrote: Thanks -- the cello question is actually more interesting to me. While I'm not a cellist, I personally don't see much point in using tenor clef very often in cello parts, since, as you say, bass clef is fine up to around G4 -- at which point, why switch to tenor clef when you're already up in the middle of the treble clef? And, as you say, as soon as it hits even one C(5) -- treble clef. Are you talking about treble clef at pitch Yes. or treble 8bassa, the traditional notation? 8vb treble clef notation for cello is no longer used. You mean, in modern editions. But any cellist needs to read it fluently, as plenty of editions through the 20th century used it liberally. On viola da gamba, I find it easier to read than treble clef at pitch. But that is mostly due to the fact that it's in a completely different range. It's also probably due to my having sung tenor for most of my life -- the 8vb clef is completely natural to me. -- David W. Fentonhttp://www.bway.net/~dfenton David Fenton Associateshttp://www.bway.net/~dfassoc ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
Re: [Finale] Re: clef changes
On 14 Apr 2005, at 5:48 PM, David W. Fenton wrote: On 14 Apr 2005 at 16:59, Darcy James Argue wrote: 8vb treble clef notation for cello is no longer used. You mean, in modern editions. Well yeah -- I was talking about music written by me. - Darcy - [EMAIL PROTECTED] Brooklyn, NY ___ Finale mailing list Finale@shsu.edu http://lists.shsu.edu/mailman/listinfo/finale
