Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery "Terrain Object" ignored at load

[grtuxhangar team]

Hello, Saikrishna

Thanks.

Ahmad


On 21 June 2013 01:24, Saikrishna Arcot  wrote:

> Use "git log --before -MM-DD --after -MM-DD" to see the comment
> of the change, commit ID, and the date the change was made. You can
> leave out before or after switch if you want to. Then use the commit ID
> in "git reset --hard ". You only need the last 7 characters
> of the commit ID. This changes your working tree to match the tree
> after the commit.
>
> Saikrishna Arcot
>
> On Thu 20 Jun 2013 06:09:02 PM CDT, grtuxhangar team wrote:
> > Hello, again my question
> >
> > Help
> >
> > What is the right git command line.? to get the git content at a
> > specific date
> >
> > Ahmad
> >
> >
> >
> > On 20 June 2013 19:41, grtuxhangar team  > > wrote:
> >
> > I'll have some free time along the end of that week, i could try
> > to build some versions.
> >
> > However,  to get the Git content  at a specific date , is beyond
> > my expertise.
> >
> > What is the right git command.
> >
> > Thank
> > Ahmad
> >
> >
> > On 20 June 2013 15:53, James Turner  > > wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 20 Jun 2013, at 14:44, grtuxhangar team
> > mailto:hohora...@gmail.com>> wrote:
> >
> >> We have a FG Git built working  version  which is Feb the 17,
> >> versus a next FG Git built version NOT working which is March
> >> the 20.
> >>
> >> Sorry we can't be more precise.
> >
> > Okay, that's still a good narrowing of possible changes, thanks.
> >
> > If anyone wants to experiment within that range, it would be
> > much appreciated. I'll eyeball the relevant commit logs over
> > the next few days and see if I can spot anything.
> >
> > James
> >
> >
> >
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> > 
> > https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery "Terrain Object" ignored at load

[Saikrishna Arcot]

Use "git log --before -MM-DD --after -MM-DD" to see the comment 
of the change, commit ID, and the date the change was made. You can 
leave out before or after switch if you want to. Then use the commit ID 
in "git reset --hard ". You only need the last 7 characters 
of the commit ID. This changes your working tree to match the tree 
after the commit.

Saikrishna Arcot

On Thu 20 Jun 2013 06:09:02 PM CDT, grtuxhangar team wrote:
> Hello, again my question
>
> Help
>
> What is the right git command line.? to get the git content at a
> specific date
>
> Ahmad
>
>
>
> On 20 June 2013 19:41, grtuxhangar team  > wrote:
>
> I'll have some free time along the end of that week, i could try
> to build some versions.
>
> However,  to get the Git content  at a specific date , is beyond
> my expertise.
>
> What is the right git command.
>
> Thank
> Ahmad
>
>
> On 20 June 2013 15:53, James Turner  > wrote:
>
>
> On 20 Jun 2013, at 14:44, grtuxhangar team
> mailto:hohora...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
>> We have a FG Git built working  version  which is Feb the 17,
>> versus a next FG Git built version NOT working which is March
>> the 20.
>>
>> Sorry we can't be more precise.
>
> Okay, that's still a good narrowing of possible changes, thanks.
>
> If anyone wants to experiment within that range, it would be
> much appreciated. I'll eyeball the relevant commit logs over
> the next few days and see if I can spot anything.
>
> James
>
>
> 
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery "Terrain Object" ignored at load

[grtuxhangar team]

Hello, again my question

Help

What is the right git command line.? to get the git content at a specific
date

Ahmad



On 20 June 2013 19:41, grtuxhangar team  wrote:

> I'll have some free time along the end of that week, i could try to build
> some versions.
>
> However,  to get the Git content  at a specific date , is beyond my
> expertise.
>
> What is the right git command.
>
> Thank
> Ahmad
>
>
> On 20 June 2013 15:53, James Turner  wrote:
>
>>
>> On 20 Jun 2013, at 14:44, grtuxhangar team  wrote:
>>
>> We have a FG Git built working  version  which is Feb the 17, versus a
>> next FG Git built version NOT working which is March the 20.
>>
>> Sorry we can't be more precise.
>>
>>
>> Okay, that's still a good narrowing of possible changes, thanks.
>>
>> If anyone wants to experiment within that range, it would be much
>> appreciated. I'll eyeball the relevant commit logs over the next few days
>> and see if I can spot anything.
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> This SF.net email is sponsored by Windows:
>>
>> Build for Windows Store.
>>
>> http://p.sf.net/sfu/windows-dev2dev
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>> Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
>> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
>>
>>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] reminder: entering feature freeze now

[grtuxhangar team]

I won't  say again the performances i got with a  GTX 560TI , since given
within the recent  topic  Rembrandt performance, with the self explaining
.snapshots.

Whatever  we need that  Benchmark matrix .

Those performances could be very different since depending on the scenery
parameters, for instance the performance i got were only with  vegetation
density at maximum  0.4 ( over it froze the system )
The Random buildings could not be used ( system frozen , i had to reboot ).
 Both problem with or without Rembrandt.

Ahmad



On 20 June 2013 22:29, James Turner  wrote:

>
> On 20 Jun 2013, at 17:54, Stefan Seifert  wrote:
>
> With an AMD Radeon HD 5670 using free radeon driver I've never seen
> performance of more than 15fps with Rembrandt and if I turn shadow details
> up
> so they don't look crappy I get about 3-4fps.
>
>
> And with a i3770K and a GTX670, I get some hit from ALS (10-30%) but
> Rembrandt instantly drops me to 20fps, and < 10fps I use an aircraft I
> actually want to fly (777 or Citation) and go to any major airport (EGKK,
> EHAM, EDDM, EDDF, EGLC, VHHH)
>
> This is at 2560x1600, but on the 670 I would be highly surprised if I'm
> fill-rate limited, given that AA is off, and the general suboptimal size of
> our primitive batches.
>
> Emilian has explained on IRC this might be due to the out-of-the-box /
> default config for Rembrandt being highly suboptimal, which I didn't yet
> evaluate, I would be delighted to have it more usable. I'm going to test
> further over the weekend.
>
> James
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] reminder: entering feature freeze now

[James Turner]

On 20 Jun 2013, at 17:54, Stefan Seifert  wrote:

> With an AMD Radeon HD 5670 using free radeon driver I've never seen 
> performance of more than 15fps with Rembrandt and if I turn shadow details up 
> so they don't look crappy I get about 3-4fps. 

And with a i3770K and a GTX670, I get some hit from ALS (10-30%) but Rembrandt 
instantly drops me to 20fps, and < 10fps I use an aircraft I actually want to 
fly (777 or Citation) and go to any major airport (EGKK, EHAM, EDDM, EDDF, 
EGLC, VHHH)

This is at 2560x1600, but on the 670 I would be highly surprised if I'm 
fill-rate limited, given that AA is off, and the general suboptimal size of our 
primitive batches.

Emilian has explained on IRC this might be due to the out-of-the-box / default 
config for Rembrandt being highly suboptimal, which I didn't yet evaluate, I 
would be delighted to have it more usable. I'm going to test further over the 
weekend.

James--
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] reminder: entering feature freeze now

[Saikrishna Arcot]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On an Intel HD 3000 Integrated Graphics Card with Mesa (note that Intel
is generally worse than Nvidia and AMD), I have roughly the same frame
rates with ALS on and with ALS off; it doesn't seem to make much of a
difference in terms of frame rates. That being said, in both cases, my
frame rates on the ground are less than 10 and frame rates in the sky
are around 15-20, with some pauses (when it is loading scenery or
reading airport files, I'm assuming). This seems smooth to me.

Saikrishna Arcot

On 06/20/2013 10:55 AM, grtuxhangar team wrote:
> Oh, yes there is also computers  which can't  run FG 2.00  , i have inherited 
> a computer
with  nvidia 6200  AGP  which  run only  FG 1.00.
> But you will say i (we)  am (are) not representative of  the FG users 
world only an exception, ... anybody is an exception.
>
> I guess the professional you are has done statistics about the FG
users world, thus you are able to be more precise about those
unfortunate users who are getting only "the single frame per second",
which hardware? which operating systems ?
>
> Since, sorry at the moment your feeling ( only feeling ) does not
convince me.
>
> Regarding ALS i never said we must have the entire ALS  pack with
Rembrandt , we should be able to split it in order to choose which part
is good and working  for the user.
>
> We had at the beginning ( 2 years ago) a nice sky which was working
for me and for the others friends.
>
> Unfortunately,  along these running months (2 years)  up to now the
features which were introduced have broken any possibility to use it.
>
> The last significant was to break some models effects ( mostly those
with shaders and rivets bumping) , when we can run it.
> ( refer to the last ALS topic  i gave  example ).
>
> Best
> Ahmad
>
>
>
>
> On 20 June 2013 16:46, Renk Thorsten mailto:thorsten.i.r...@jyu.fi>> wrote:
>
> > Referring to my poor experience with these two computers , i
conclude , i
> > can accept a decrease of performance, without loosing any FG
facility.
> > I'll be far from "the single frame per second" your are talking
about.
>
> First of all, there are people who get a single frame per second
with Rembrandt and have said so on this list or in the forum, the fact
that you get decent performance doesn't mean that everyone does so as
well. We're not developing FG for you personally, there are other users
as well. Kindly take note of that.
>
> Second, according to what you wrote here on this list, ALS is
unusably slow for you. That won't change when you run it under the
Rembrandt rendering framework because you have to run pretty much the
same operations, just inserted into different stages of the rendering
process. Thus, if the algorithms of ALS are unusably slow now, they will
remain so if you run them under Rembrandt. Despite of what you may
think, Rembrandt is not a magic tool making everything run faster -
deferred rendering has specific advantages over the default (e.g. for
multiple light sources for instance) and specific disadvantages (e.g. no
acceleration due to interpolation across triangles for a coarse mesh as
for terrain).
>
> Please go back and read what I wrote and try to understand how
deferred rendering works before continuing this discussion, otherwise
it's a waste of everyone's time.
>
> > Hum, Given your answer, you have probably some personal memory leak.
>
> I'd appreciate if you could refrain from any more insulting
language if you want to continue this conversation.
>
> * Thorsten
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery "Terrain Object" ignored at load

[grtuxhangar team]

I'll have some free time along the end of that week, i could try to build
some versions.

However,  to get the Git content  at a specific date , is beyond my
expertise.

What is the right git command.

Thank
Ahmad


On 20 June 2013 15:53, James Turner  wrote:

>
> On 20 Jun 2013, at 14:44, grtuxhangar team  wrote:
>
> We have a FG Git built working  version  which is Feb the 17, versus a
> next FG Git built version NOT working which is March the 20.
>
> Sorry we can't be more precise.
>
>
> Okay, that's still a good narrowing of possible changes, thanks.
>
> If anyone wants to experiment within that range, it would be much
> appreciated. I'll eyeball the relevant commit logs over the next few days
> and see if I can spot anything.
>
> James
>
>
>
> --
> This SF.net email is sponsored by Windows:
>
> Build for Windows Store.
>
> http://p.sf.net/sfu/windows-dev2dev
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> Flightgear-devel@lists.sourceforge.net
> https://lists.sourceforge.net/lists/listinfo/flightgear-devel
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Benchmark matrix

[geneb]

On Thu, 20 Jun 2013, Alan Teeder wrote:

> Instead of all this mudslinging about what slows what on which processor,
> could some thought be given to producing a benchmark suite for Flightgear.
>
> It would need to take in all of the, by now well known, variables - making
> it by no means a simple beast to manage.
>
> If this could be automated in some way it would be much easier to capture,
> and then submit, consistent data.
>
A scripted run would be an EXCELLENT tool.

g.

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[Flightgear-devel] Benchmark matrix

[Alan Teeder]

Instead of all this mudslinging about what slows what on which processor, 
could some thought be given to producing a benchmark suite for Flightgear.

It would need to take in all of the, by now well known, variables - making 
it by no means a simple beast to manage.

If this could be automated in some way it would be much easier to capture, 
and then submit, consistent data.

Alan 


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Re: [Flightgear-devel] reminder: entering feature freeze now

[Stefan Seifert]

On Thursday 20 June 2013 17:55:40 grtuxhangar team wrote:

> I guess the professional you are has done statistics about the FG users
> world, thus you are able to be more precise about those unfortunate users
> who are getting only "the single frame per second", which hardware? which
> operating systems ?

With an AMD Radeon HD 5670 using free radeon driver I've never seen 
performance of more than 15fps with Rembrandt and if I turn shadow details up 
so they don't look crappy I get about 3-4fps. So yes, we do exist. So can you 
please stop the insults and take your arrogance elsewhere?

> Regarding ALS i never said we must have the entire ALS  pack with Rembrandt
> , we should be able to split it in order to choose which part is good and
> working  for the user.

All parts of ALS work perfectly fine for me and I get between 15 and 30fps. 
Perfectly usable.

Stefan

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] reminder: entering feature freeze now

[grtuxhangar team]

Oh, yes there is also computers  which can't  run FG 2.00  , i have
inherited a computer with  nvidia 6200  AGP  which  run only  FG 1.00.
But you will say i (we)  am (are) not representative of  the FG users
world only an exception, ... anybody is an exception.

I guess the professional you are has done statistics about the FG users
world, thus you are able to be more precise about those unfortunate users
who are getting only "the single frame per second", which hardware? which
operating systems ?

Since, sorry at the moment your feeling ( only feeling ) does not convince
me.

Regarding ALS i never said we must have the entire ALS  pack with Rembrandt
, we should be able to split it in order to choose which part is good and
working  for the user.

We had at the beginning ( 2 years ago) a nice sky which was working for me
and for the others friends.

Unfortunately,  along these running months (2 years)  up to now the
features which were introduced have broken any possibility to use it.

The last significant was to break some models effects ( mostly those with
shaders and rivets bumping) , when we can run it.
( refer to the last ALS topic  i gave  example ).

Best
Ahmad




On 20 June 2013 16:46, Renk Thorsten  wrote:

> > Referring to my poor experience with these two computers , i conclude , i
> > can accept a decrease of performance, without loosing any FG facility.
> > I'll be far from "the single frame per second" your are talking about.
>
> First of all, there are people who get a single frame per second with
> Rembrandt and have said so on this list or in the forum, the fact that you
> get decent performance doesn't mean that everyone does so as well. We're
> not developing FG for you personally, there are other users as well. Kindly
> take note of that.
>
> Second, according to what you wrote here on this list, ALS is unusably
> slow for you. That won't change when you run it under the Rembrandt
> rendering framework because you have to run pretty much the same
> operations, just inserted into different stages of the rendering process.
> Thus, if the algorithms of ALS are unusably slow now, they will remain so
> if you run them under Rembrandt. Despite of what you may think, Rembrandt
> is not a magic tool making everything run faster - deferred rendering has
> specific advantages over the default (e.g. for multiple light sources for
> instance) and specific disadvantages (e.g. no acceleration due to
> interpolation across triangles for a coarse mesh as for terrain).
>
> Please go back and read what I wrote and try to understand how deferred
> rendering works before continuing this discussion, otherwise it's a waste
> of everyone's time.
>
> > Hum, Given your answer, you have probably some personal memory leak.
>
> I'd appreciate if you could refrain from any more insulting language if
> you want to continue this conversation.
>
> * Thorsten
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] reminder: entering feature freeze now

[Renk Thorsten]

> Referring to my poor experience with these two computers , i conclude , i
> can accept a decrease of performance, without loosing any FG facility.
> I'll be far from "the single frame per second" your are talking about.

First of all, there are people who get a single frame per second with Rembrandt 
and have said so on this list or in the forum, the fact that you get decent 
performance doesn't mean that everyone does so as well. We're not developing FG 
for you personally, there are other users as well. Kindly take note of that. 

Second, according to what you wrote here on this list, ALS is unusably slow for 
you. That won't change when you run it under the Rembrandt rendering framework 
because you have to run pretty much the same operations, just inserted into 
different stages of the rendering process. Thus, if the algorithms of ALS are 
unusably slow now, they will remain so if you run them under Rembrandt. Despite 
of what you may think, Rembrandt is not a magic tool making everything run 
faster - deferred rendering has specific advantages over the default (e.g. for 
multiple light sources for instance) and specific disadvantages (e.g. no 
acceleration due to interpolation across triangles for a coarse mesh as for 
terrain).

Please go back and read what I wrote and try to understand how deferred 
rendering works before continuing this discussion, otherwise it's a waste of 
everyone's time.

> Hum, Given your answer, you have probably some personal memory leak.

I'd appreciate if you could refrain from any more insulting language if you 
want to continue this conversation.

* Thorsten
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery "Terrain Object" ignored at load

[James Turner]

On 20 Jun 2013, at 14:44, grtuxhangar team  wrote:

> We have a FG Git built working  version  which is Feb the 17, versus a next 
> FG Git built version NOT working which is March the 20.
> 
> Sorry we can't be more precise.

Okay, that's still a good narrowing of possible changes, thanks.

If anyone wants to experiment within that range, it would be much appreciated. 
I'll eyeball the relevant commit logs over the next few days and see if I can 
spot anything.

James

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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery "Terrain Object" ignored at load

[grtuxhangar team]

I order to narrow the research, our system manager told me.

We have a FG Git built working  version  which is Feb the 17, versus a next
FG Git built version NOT working which is March the 20.


Sorry we can't be more precise.


Ahmad


On 20 June 2013 14:28, James Turner  wrote:

>
> On 20 Jun 2013, at 13:20, grtuxhangar team  wrote:
>
> UNFORTUNATELY, right now,  with recent FG GIt we can't use it.
> At FG load the new terrain ( it is an object ) is not recognized and the
> Aircraft is positioned on the original surface of the scenery which is
> under the new_terrain_object.
>
> The feature we had before was very useful, since it could give us any
> others add on,  for instance, platform on the sea or specific building with
> helicopter area, we could take off from.
>
> Does the feature has been removed on purpose, or is it only a bug ?
>
>
> It's a bug, but I think it may be a side effect of fixing a different bug.
> Someone else reported it since they can no longer land helicopters on
> scenery (helipads on buildings)
>
> I've no idea which change introduced it, alas - if someone could test a
> few older revisions it would help to narrow it down.
>
> James
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] Scenery "Terrain Object" ignored at load

[James Turner]

On 20 Jun 2013, at 13:20, grtuxhangar team  wrote:

> UNFORTUNATELY, right now,  with recent FG GIt we can't use it.
> At FG load the new terrain ( it is an object ) is not recognized and the 
> Aircraft is positioned on the original surface of the scenery which is under 
> the new_terrain_object.
> 
> The feature we had before was very useful, since it could give us any others 
> add on,  for instance, platform on the sea or specific building with 
> helicopter area, we could take off from.
> 
> Does the feature has been removed on purpose, or is it only a bug ?

It's a bug, but I think it may be a side effect of fixing a different bug. 
Someone else reported it since they can no longer land helicopters on scenery 
(helipads on buildings)

I've no idea which change introduced it, alas - if someone could test a few 
older revisions it would help to narrow it down.

James--
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[Flightgear-devel] Scenery "Terrain Object" ignored at load

[grtuxhangar team]

Hello,
With FG Git , we have lost a feature which was existing with FG 2.10.
When an airport within the generic scenery is wrong, we may have to
customize an Airport with some objects add on.  mostly a new shape of the
terrain ( runway) , which is positioned within the scenery
(Scenery/Objects/xlonxlat/xlonxlat/nnn.stg) overlaying  the original
scenery shape.
With some minor apt.dat update we can take off from that improved airport.

Here an example  got from the PAF development with the "Alpes d'Huez"
airport.

https://3291185c-a-62cb3a1a-s-sites.googlegroups.com/site/grtuxhangarctd/other-download/LFHU.jpg

That snaphot was done with my old (git) working FG version.



UNFORTUNATELY, right now,  with recent FG GIt we can't use it.
At FG load the new terrain ( it is an object ) is not recognized and the
Aircraft is positioned on the original surface of the scenery which is
under the new_terrain_object.

The feature we had before was very useful, since it could give us any
others add on,  for instance, platform on the sea or specific building with
helicopter area, we could take off from.

Does the feature has been removed on purpose, or is it only a bug ?

Thank

Ahmad
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] reminder: entering feature freeze now

[grtuxhangar team]

Hum, Given your answer, you have probably some personal memory leak.

I  have to remind you, about Rembrandt: Was said before.
With my Computer NVIDIA  GPU Geforce 9600 GT at 1024x800 i never get less
than 24 fps
With an other computer NVIDIA  GPU  560 Ti was demonstrated ( refer to
Rembrandt performance topic )   50 fps.

Both hardware running Linux with the last available driver

The GPU Geforce 9600 GT  is 5  years old ( i guess )
The NVIDIA  GPU  560 TI  is  18 months old.

Do you mean  running Rembrandt  with a 10  years old GPU  should be
possible  ?

I hope  your answer is only due to the low performance you are getting
with  your new  equipment, which is surely missing something.

Referring to my poor experience with these two computers , i conclude , i
can accept a decrease of performance, without loosing any FG facility.
I'll be far from "the single frame per second" your are talking about.

Best,
Ahmad



>> Anyhow the GPU CPU systems is less significant, than the programs which
>> are  developed, and the way they  are using the resources.

>Given that there are users for which Rembrandt renders with a single frame
per second, I would assume that hardware is a consideration for them.




On 20 June 2013 12:50, Renk Thorsten  wrote:

> > Pushing in front your supposed to be  know how is not an argument ,
> > usually  the more person' s know how is great the less they are
> > pretending  to have it.
> > Please stop to pretend to be the best.
>
> So you mean to say that actually having written all the ALS code has not
> in any way given me an understanding of what the code does, where it burns
> performance and what the bottlenecks are? That sounds like an
> ill-considered position to me.
>
>
> > Don't tell  the FG feature can't be improved with Rembrandt by exposing
> > some similar eye candy  you are getting with your ALS,
>
> That wasn't what I was telling you at all. I was telling you that it
> probably can be done, but that it's going to be slower than either
> Rembrandt or ALS, so it won't run for you, and I asked if you still wanted
> to have it under these circumstances.
>
> > Have you thought about the Rembrandt lights functions, and others
> > effects.
>
> Yes, sure. I'm not quite as stupid as I appear - obviously they require
> extra computations and will make rendering slower than not having light
> functions, everything else being equal.
>
> > For sure the way you have been developing has created a big gap, thus it
> > would be difficult to mix both systems.
>
> I remember writing a few times that it would _not_ technically be horribly
> difficult to port some eye candy, as for instance pixel postprocessing and
> procedural texturing happens in the fragment shader only and that my
> assessment is that it can be more or less copied. I also remembered
> offering to help anyone working on Rembrandt doing just that. There was
> just zero response to my offer.
>
> > Anyhow the GPU CPU systems is less significant, than the programs which
> > are  developed, and the way they  are using the resources.
>
> Given that there are users for which Rembrandt renders with a single frame
> per second, I would assume that hardware is a consideration for them.
>
> Admittedly I am a bit tired of arguments 'You must make this faster,
> surely there must be a way.'  I would ask you to demonstrate my ignorance
> to me and to demonstrate that you can actually make the algorithm run
> faster. Why don't you sit down and get your hands dirty, find out where the
> rendering burns most performance and figure out a way to do the
> computations faster? Maybe you'll come to appreciate hands-on knowledge
> better then.
>
> Best,
>
> * Thorsten
>
>
>
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] reminder: entering feature freeze now

[Renk Thorsten]

> - ALS now works much better with the random trees.  I think
> there's still work to be done with other shaders (presumably
> the wake shader has still to be ported?)

Yes (if that is really a major holdup, I can probably do this within the next 
weeks if it makes Vivian smile :-) ...).  

A more significant problem in my view are the lights which apparently don't go 
via any shader, so they fog wrongly, and the visibility of the sun below the 
skydome-drawn horizon or through dense fog - from Fred's answer I gather that 
they would require some source code work.

Also, note that aircraft only show effects if they used the ubershader to 
generate them - there is no equivalent of 'just the reflection shader', you 
have to use the ubershader and switch reflection on - so there'd be no legacy 
support for the older model effects - I'm not sure how widespread the use of 
old effects is.

Not sure if we're missing any other major thing.

* Thorsten
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Re: [Flightgear-devel] reminder: entering feature freeze now

[Renk Thorsten]

> Pushing in front your supposed to be  know how is not an argument ,
> usually  the more person' s know how is great the less they are  
> pretending  to have it.
> Please stop to pretend to be the best.

So you mean to say that actually having written all the ALS code has not in any 
way given me an understanding of what the code does, where it burns performance 
and what the bottlenecks are? That sounds like an ill-considered position to me.


> Don't tell  the FG feature can't be improved with Rembrandt by exposing
> some similar eye candy  you are getting with your ALS,

That wasn't what I was telling you at all. I was telling you that it probably 
can be done, but that it's going to be slower than either Rembrandt or ALS, so 
it won't run for you, and I asked if you still wanted to have it under these 
circumstances.

> Have you thought about the Rembrandt lights functions, and others  
> effects.

Yes, sure. I'm not quite as stupid as I appear - obviously they require extra 
computations and will make rendering slower than not having light functions, 
everything else being equal.

> For sure the way you have been developing has created a big gap, thus it
> would be difficult to mix both systems.

I remember writing a few times that it would _not_ technically be horribly 
difficult to port some eye candy, as for instance pixel postprocessing and 
procedural texturing happens in the fragment shader only and that my assessment 
is that it can be more or less copied. I also remembered offering to help 
anyone working on Rembrandt doing just that. There was just zero response to my 
offer.

> Anyhow the GPU CPU systems is less significant, than the programs which  
> are  developed, and the way they  are using the resources.

Given that there are users for which Rembrandt renders with a single frame per 
second, I would assume that hardware is a consideration for them.

Admittedly I am a bit tired of arguments 'You must make this faster, surely 
there must be a way.'  I would ask you to demonstrate my ignorance to me and to 
demonstrate that you can actually make the algorithm run faster. Why don't you 
sit down and get your hands dirty, find out where the rendering burns most 
performance and figure out a way to do the computations faster? Maybe you'll 
come to appreciate hands-on knowledge better then.

Best,

* Thorsten


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