Re: [FRIAM] Come please

[Gary Schiltz]

Tangential question. How do people communicate electronically these days?
Here in Ecuador, land lines are gone except in the cities. Text messages
are almost never used, and I think the USA must be about the only country
that still uses them. Email for anything official. No postal service - it
went bankrupt years ago here. WhatsApp rules here.

On Fri, May 31, 2024 at 11:19 AM Nicholas Thompson 
wrote:

> Frank,  you definitely deserve better.  But I am two thousand miles away.
> N
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of Frank Wimberly <
> wimber...@gmail.com>
> *Sent:* Friday, May 31, 2024 937 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Come please
>
> I'm at Downtown Subscription trying to hold a table for the group.  At
> 9:40 no one else has come.  I resolve not to be the first to arrive anymore.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] Some brands of digital electric meters wildly inaccurate on nonlinear loads, and NM may get them soon!

[Gary Schiltz]

Similar cost structure here in Ecuador as you describe for India.

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 2:55 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:

> Some observations
>
> We consumers fought for and got the following rights
>
> 1`The right to get the utility meters inspected by an independent agency
> for approx US$3 per inspection
> 2. The right to buy our own smart meter, get it tested by the utility and
> have it installed by them
> 3. The right to install our own check meter in series with the utility's
> meter.
>
> I also noticed something curious. It seems that in NM residences pay the
> most per unit and industries the least, whereas here in India it's
> the other way around, industries and commercial establishments pay approx
> double the residential tariffs.
>
>
> On Wed, Feb 14, 2024 at 12:55 AM _ Bruno W  wrote:
>
>> Thanks for that info Sarbajit. The Hall effect meters were found to be
>> quite accurate in the work in Europe. It's the Rogowski coil models that
>> can be way off. It's also possible to manipulate them into thinking your
>> bill is zero or negative (without solar panels!) if you find or make a load
>> with the right pulse frequency, but getting overbilled seems more common.
>>
>> --
>>> Hi Bruno
>>> Smart meters were mandated in New Delhi India in 2008 onwards and we had
>>> the same sort of consumer experience with bills shooting up due to these
>>> then "made in China" meters and there was tremendous consumer anger.
>>> 2 important changes were made for domestic consumers - a) Billing would
>>> be
>>> on the basis of Kw-hr (resistive) and not on the basis of KVA-hr
>>> (reactive). and b) The neutral wiring and meter connection would be
>>> through
>>> a bus-bar system only (no looping of neutrals) and ELCBs were
>>> made mandatory for preventing earth leakages. That greatly sorted out the
>>> problem.
>>> I believe the meter design was also changed to ensure that the Hall
>>> sensors
>>> were inserted into the phase as well as neutral lines.
>>> Here are some links.
>>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Public%20bulletin-5.pdf
>>>
>>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/TechnicalspecificationforMeters_0.pdf
>>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Draft-Regulations.pdf
>>> (for Page 16 of 80)
>>> Just for your information, In the past 1 year I have paid a grand total
>>> of
>>> about US$ 150 in electricity bills for an annual consumption of about
>>> 3,600
>>> Kw-Hr (3,600 units).
>>> Sarbajit Roy
>>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:02 AM _ Bruno W >> > wrote:
>>> >
>>> * I'm hoping some Friam member who knows a little about how an electric *
>>> >
>>> * meter works will be interested *>
>>> * enough to get this addressed BEFORE PNM spends $ 300+ million giving
>>> us *>
>>> * all new meters. *>
>>> >
>>> * If interested I can send the full paper abstracted here: *>
>>> * https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8077940
>>>  *>
>>> * There is also a thesis from the same group that gives more info *>
>>> >
>>> * The paper makes clear that one of the preferred technologies in
>>> electric *>
>>> * meters (the Rogowski coil) *>
>>> * can go haywire when nonlinear loads are present. The smart meters gave
>>> *>
>>> * readings up to 500% higher *>
>>> * than the actual usage. The meters PNM has proposed for its entire *>
>>> * territory is the Itron "Gen5" Riva, *>
>>> * which has been deployed in the last 2 years in Denver and parts of
>>> Texas. *>
>>> * Sure enough, some customers' *>
>>> * bill have gone way up (3 or 4-fold in one news report), and they have *
>>> >
>>> * little recourse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpOhTXV59pI=20s
>>>  *>
>>> >
>>> * I intervened in this PRC proceeding last year, and may be able to get
>>> this *>
>>> * info onto the record, and try to *>
>>> * get the PRC to require better testing on nonlinear loads. But I need *
>>> >
>>> * someone with some relevant expertise *>
>>> * (can be education or experience) to explain the published findings and
>>> *>
>>> * their implications to the PRC in an affidavit by March. *>
>>> * This person would then answer questions from the PRC and possibly PNM
>>> via *>
>>> * zoom in a short hearing in late April or May. *>
>>> >
>>> * I have several reasons for not wanting to see PNM make this huge *>
>>> * investment (and by law they are entitled to a nice *>
>>> * rate of return paid by us, the customers) in a very messed-up
>>> technology. *>
>>> * Probably most of us in this group *>
>>> * don't sweat much about our electric bills (actually maybe if ours *>
>>> * quadrupled, we would), but for low-income families, this is *>
>>> * potentially very cruel, since the cost of the meters will be charged
>>> with *>
>>> * interest regardless of usage, and energy-saving *>
>>> * appliances typically have nonlinear load usages). *>
>>> >
>>> * I 

Re: [FRIAM] Some brands of digital electric meters wildly inaccurate on nonlinear loads, and NM may get them soon!

[Gary Schiltz]

Must be heavily subsidized?

On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:03 AM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:

> Sorry, a correction. I paid US$ 15  (not 150) for consuming 3,600 units.
>
>
> Sarbajit Roy
>
> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 8:31 PM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:
>
>> Hi Bruno
>>
>> Smart meters were mandated in New Delhi India in 2008 onwards and we had
>> the same sort of consumer experience with bills shooting up due to these
>> then "made in China" meters and there was tremendous consumer anger.
>>
>> 2 important changes were made for domestic consumers - a) Billing would
>> be on the basis of Kw-hr (resistive) and not on the basis of KVA-hr
>> (reactive). and b) The neutral wiring and meter connection would be through
>> a bus-bar system only (no looping of neutrals) and ELCBs were
>> made mandatory for preventing earth leakages. That greatly sorted out the
>> problem.
>>
>> I believe the meter design was also changed to ensure that the Hall
>> sensors were inserted into the phase as well as neutral lines.
>>
>> Here are some links.
>>
>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Public%20bulletin-5.pdf
>>
>>
>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/TechnicalspecificationforMeters_0.pdf
>>
>> https://www.derc.gov.in/sites/default/files/Draft-Regulations.pdf
>> (for Page 16 of 80)
>>
>> Just for your information, In the past 1 year I have paid a grand total
>> of about US$ 150 in electricity bills for an annual consumption of about
>> 3,600 Kw-Hr (3,600 units).
>>
>> Sarbajit Roy
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Feb 13, 2024 at 10:02 AM _ Bruno W  wrote:
>>
>>> I'm hoping some Friam member who knows a little about how an electric
>>> meter works will be interested
>>> enough to get this addressed BEFORE PNM spends $ 300+ million giving us
>>> all new meters.
>>>
>>> If interested I can send the full paper abstracted here:
>>> https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/8077940
>>> There is also a thesis from the same group that gives more info
>>>
>>> The paper makes clear that one of the preferred technologies in electric
>>> meters (the Rogowski coil)
>>> can go haywire when nonlinear loads are present. The smart meters gave
>>> readings up to 500% higher
>>> than the actual usage. The meters PNM has proposed for its entire
>>> territory is the Itron "Gen5" Riva,
>>> which has been deployed in the last 2 years in Denver and parts of
>>> Texas. Sure enough, some customers'
>>> bill have gone way up (3 or 4-fold in one news report), and they have
>>> little recourse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dpOhTXV59pI=20s
>>>
>>> I intervened in this PRC proceeding last year, and may be able to get
>>> this info onto the record, and try to
>>> get the PRC to require better testing on nonlinear loads. But I need
>>> someone with some relevant expertise
>>> (can be education or experience) to explain the published findings and
>>> their implications to the PRC in an affidavit by March.
>>> This person would then answer questions from the PRC and possibly PNM
>>> via zoom in a short hearing in late April or May.
>>>
>>> I have several reasons for not wanting to see PNM make this huge
>>> investment (and by law they are entitled to a nice
>>> rate of return paid by us, the customers) in a very messed-up
>>> technology. Probably most of us in this group
>>> don't sweat much about our electric bills (actually maybe if ours
>>> quadrupled, we would), but for low-income families, this is
>>> potentially very cruel, since the cost of the meters will be charged
>>> with interest regardless of usage, and energy-saving
>>> appliances typically have nonlinear load usages).
>>>
>>> I hope to be at the St. John's gathering Friday am, but feel free to
>>> reply or contact me directly if interested in this.
>>>
>>>
>>> --William J. Bruno, Ph.D.
>>> wbr...@gmail.com
>>>
>>>
>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Off the wall question about turbulence

[Gary Schiltz]

The snake would change the flow, making the experiment meaningless. Is that
why you can’t see the value of a qbit without changing it? or something
like that in the quantum realm?

On Tue, Nov 28, 2023 at 9:02 AM glen  wrote:

> …
>
> You could also get one of those fancy snakes with a camera on the tip ...
> way more fun than taking apart the pipe.
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Re: [FRIAM] Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube

[Gary Schiltz]

“hairball heterarchy of metaphor“

Now there’s a Wikipedia article in need of writing.

On Mon, Jul 3, 2023 at 9:14 AM glen  wrote:

> Yeah, Sutter triggered me when he said "but you don't have to worry about
> that if you don't know what an integral is". I mean ... maybe? This stuff
> is like heroin to an addict, right? Models upon models upon models. And not
> just in a simple stack, but a hairball heterarchy of metaphor.
>
> You kinda do need to know what an integral is, right? I mean ... [sigh]
> ... I guess that's a rabbit hole, too. The only way you can understand what
> an integral *is* (not merely those pesky aspects like what a particular
> type of integration is *good for* ... noo, we don't need to know that,
> we're after the *essence* of integration) is to use it to do work. To
> understand integration, you must integrate some particular thing over some
> particular domain.
>
> That same principle ("What I can't create, I don't understand.") applies
> to Action ... and brewing ... and cleaning your carburetor. You will never
> understand carburetors until you *use* carburetors to do some particular
> thing ... like drive across the country in broken down jalopy.
>
> I feel like there's an analogy waiting to be made between
> [mal|mis|dis]information and the popularization of [physics|math|biology].
> Books like Thiel's "The Straussian Moment" seem similar to books like
> Kaku's "Quantum Supremacy". And the category they compose seems similar to
> arm-chair opining on:
>
> • foreign affairs like Prigozhin's mutiny,
> • epidemiology like the origins of SARS-CoV-2, and
> • deep sea physics and the Titan submersible.
>
> I've probably mentioned this before. But I learned a new word awhile back:
> ultracrepidarian cf https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sutor,_ne_ultra_crepidam.
> Yes, I'm as guilty as the next shoemaker. But sometimes it's good to simply
> stay in one's lane, at least until you've done some homework.
>
> Just to complete the arc of this rant, am I crazy for getting a distinct
> Cult Prophet vibe circa 13:39 in the video:
> https://youtu.be/UuqpCBZoX3M?t=819 ? When Sutter says, with cadence
> envied by every budding preacher in every small town church across the
> country: "The Least Action Principle is a generator of Physics. The Least
> Action Principle is a Creator of Physics. It is a Mother Principle that
> allows Physicists to generate Laws of Physics and Equations of Motion. It's
> . right . there. Folks you can write down a Lagrangian ..." I mean, that's
> some good ole down home fever-eyed preachin' right there. Reminds me of
> Keith Raniere of the NXIVM sex cult.
>
> Do you see it?!?! Do you?!? It's right there! The Secret <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Secret_(Byrne_book)> to the universe.
>
> On 7/2/23 23:16, Stephen Guerin wrote:
> > The Action is the integral of the Lagrangian along the whole path, not
> just a single instant.
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 2, 2023, 9:12 PM Nicholas Thompson  > wrote:
> >
> > So the difference is at a positive max when the ball hits the ground
> and at a negative maximum when the ball reaches its highest altitude?  So
> how am I to understand positive and negative?vectors?
> >
> > Instantaneious Action is at a minimum when the two terms are equal?
> >
> > I have no intuitive sense of what is going on here.
> >
> > But thanks for trying, Frank.
> >
> > N
> >
> >
> >
> > N
> >
> > On Sun, Jul 2, 2023 at 12:27 PM Nicholas Thompson <
> thompnicks...@gmail.com > wrote:
> >
> > Frank,
> >
> > Thanks SO  MUCH for forwarding this to me.  To any other
> defrocked english majors on Friam, who have listened to these guys blather
> on about LaGrangians for all these years,  I highly, HIGHLY recommend the
> video. Pretty short, AND, you might possibly, conceivably understand Steve
> Guerin when you  get to the end.   Yeah.  Really.
> >
> > Nick
> >
> > -- Forwarded message -
> > From: *Frank Wimberly*  wimber...@gmail.com>>
> > Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023 at 2:53 PM
> > Subject: Fwd: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The
> Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> > To: Nicholas Thompson  thompnicks...@gmail.com>>
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ---
> > Frank C. Wimberly
> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >
> > 505 670-9918
> > Santa Fe, NM
> >
> > -- Forwarded message -
> > From: *Frank Wimberly*  wimber...@gmail.com>>
> > Date: Thu, Jun 29, 2023, 12:51 PM
> > Subject: Watch "The Most Important Idea in Physics: The
> Principle of Least Action - Ask a Spaceman!" on YouTube
> > To: Thompson, Nicholas  nickthomp...@earthlink.net>>, Barry MacKichan <
> barry.mackic...@mackichan.com >
> >
> >
> > 

Re: [FRIAM] Best Cormac McCarthy novels

[Gary Schiltz]

I read perhaps two thirds of Blood Meridian a few years ago. My memory
is a little hazy about it now, but I just remember it feeling a little
"disjointed", and quite bloody and violent (unnecessarily so, IMO). I
might give it another go someday. Meanwhile, perhaps I'll try reading
The Crossing on Frank's recommendation.

On Wed, Jun 14, 2023 at 7:02 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
> Blood Meridian is his masterpiece but I enjoyed reading The Crossing more.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, Jun 14, 2023, 1:29 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>>
>> Cormac McCarthy died yesterday in Santa Fe where he lived for the last 30 
>> years. Douglas Preston lives in Santa Fe too. There must be something in 
>> Santa Fe which attracts good writers :-) What's your favorite McCarthy novel?
>> https://www.theguardian.com/books/2023/jun/13/cormac-mccarthy-dead-novelist
>>
>> -J.
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Google Bard

[Gary Schiltz]

Answering my own question, I signed up and was able to ask ChatGPT. It
gave a better answer from the start.

If you have a WordPress site with no pages or posts, the default
behavior of WordPress depends on the theme you have installed.
However, in most cases, the following elements are typically displayed
when you visit the site:

Header: The header section of your website, which usually includes the
site title or logo and the main navigation menu.

Footer: The footer section of your website, containing information
such as copyright notices, links to privacy policies, terms of use,
and contact information.

Sidebar: If your theme has a sidebar, it may be displayed on the site.
The sidebar typically contains widgets like search bars, categories,
recent posts, or custom content, depending on your theme and widget
settings.

Widgets: Some themes display widgets in areas other than the sidebar,
such as the footer or header. These can include social media icons,
subscription forms, or other customizable elements.

Empty Content Area: Since you have no pages or posts, the main content
area of your site may appear empty or display a default message like
"No content found" or "This site does not have any content yet."

It's important to note that the appearance of your site can be
customized by installing and configuring different themes, page
builders, and plugins. These tools allow you to create and arrange
content in various ways, so the actual display of your site may vary
depending on your specific settings.

On Sun, May 21, 2023 at 12:01 PM Gary Schiltz
 wrote:
>
> I haven't signed up for ChatGPT or similar, so I tried Google Bard to
> get an answer to a practical question to do with WordPress
> development. I knew that the answer that it gave me was incorrect, and
> said so. Here is an abridged version of the second conversation:
>
> Gary: I asked Google Bard the following question: "If I have a
> wordpress site with no pages or posts, what gets displayed when I go
> to the site?" and it basically told me that it won't display anything,
> and told me how to add pages or posts. That answer was just plain
> wrong. The theme somehow displays something by default, and I'd like
> to know what mechanism it uses to show this default content.
>
> Bard admitted it was wrong and pointed to what I presume is correct (I
> haven't looked into it to verify).
>
> Bard: You are correct, Google Bard's answer was incorrect. When you
> have a WordPress site with no pages or posts, the theme will display a
> default content. This default content is usually a message that
> encourages you to create your first page or post. The mechanism that
> the theme uses to display this default content is called the template
> hierarchy. The template hierarchy is a system that WordPress uses to
> determine which template file to load for a particular page or post.
> When you have no pages or posts, WordPress will load the index.php
> template file. This file is responsible for displaying the default
> content.
>
> The following is an example of the default content that is displayed
> by the index.php template file:
>
> Code snippet
>
> 
> 
> 
> Welcome to WordPress
> 
> 
> Welcome to WordPress
> This is your new WordPress site. To get started, please create your
> first page or post.
> Create a new page
> Create a new post
> 
> 
>
> You can customize the default content by editing the index.php
> template file. You can find this file in your theme's directory.
>
>
> I wonder how ChatGPT would fare? Anyone care to try since I haven't
> signed up for it...

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[FRIAM] Google Bard

[Gary Schiltz]

I haven't signed up for ChatGPT or similar, so I tried Google Bard to
get an answer to a practical question to do with WordPress
development. I knew that the answer that it gave me was incorrect, and
said so. Here is an abridged version of the second conversation:

Gary: I asked Google Bard the following question: "If I have a
wordpress site with no pages or posts, what gets displayed when I go
to the site?" and it basically told me that it won't display anything,
and told me how to add pages or posts. That answer was just plain
wrong. The theme somehow displays something by default, and I'd like
to know what mechanism it uses to show this default content.

Bard admitted it was wrong and pointed to what I presume is correct (I
haven't looked into it to verify).

Bard: You are correct, Google Bard's answer was incorrect. When you
have a WordPress site with no pages or posts, the theme will display a
default content. This default content is usually a message that
encourages you to create your first page or post. The mechanism that
the theme uses to display this default content is called the template
hierarchy. The template hierarchy is a system that WordPress uses to
determine which template file to load for a particular page or post.
When you have no pages or posts, WordPress will load the index.php
template file. This file is responsible for displaying the default
content.

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I wonder how ChatGPT would fare? Anyone care to try since I haven't
signed up for it...

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Re: [FRIAM] selective optimism

[Gary Schiltz]

What David said.

On Tue, May 9, 2023 at 8:49 AM Prof David West  wrote:

> The opinion of an "advanced layman."
>
> I claim the status because my Computer Science MS was in AI. My first
> professional publication was in *AI Magazine*, then the journal of record
> for the discipline. I have appeared on panels with Herbert Simon, Marvin
> Minsky, and Herbert Dreyfus at AI conferences. I taught AI courses at the
> University of New Mexico circa 2009. I have observed the field more or less
> continuously, but as an interested observer—not expert and certainly not
> practitioner.
>
> I have always been a critic! From the time that Simon and Newel claimed
> that they had "created an artificial intelligence," because it successfully
> mimicked the way that university professors claimed to think, to the
> present day. I am convinced that advocates of AI and claimants with regard
> its power and potential (and threat) base ground their assertions in an
> "equivalence" between their work and a debased and limited model of human
> intelligence.
>
> The only danger that *will* (and I use the definite will not the
> potential maybe) result from widespread AI is that "the masses" will
> believe the hype and come to believe that they, as humans, are inferior in
> every way to machines. I believe that political and economic elites will
> exploit this denigration of the human in order to consolidate their power
> (they already have the wealth). To me, this is nothing more than an
> acceleration of a 75 year trend to use the educational system to produce
> graduates that are compliant and gullible rather than informed and
> intelligent—the latter, obviously, being dangerous to the social order.
>
> As a species we have, collectively, created gods, forgot how and why we
> did so, then worshiped then as Gods—vastly and inevitably superior beings.
> AI is just godmaking 2.0
>
> davew
>
> On Tue, May 9, 2023, at 1:34 AM, Tom Johnson wrote:
>
> It doesn't have to be either/or. I suspect most likely a mix of the two
> will evolve as is the case with the whole Digital Revolution.
> TJ
>
> ===
> Tom Johnson
> Inst. for Analytic Journalism
> Santa Fe, New Mexico
> 505-577-6482
> ===
>
> On Mon, May 8, 2023, 9:43 PM Pieter Steenekamp 
> wrote:
>
> People have different ideas about AI. Naomi Klein thinks that the idea
> that AI will solve all our problems is a big joke. She thinks the tech
> people are trying to trick us! She thinks AI is not just a tool but also a
> creation of the people who made it. Naomi is afraid that if we keep
> believing in this lie, we won't fix the real problems we have.
>
> On the other hand, Sam Altman is excited about AI! He thinks AI can help
> us solve things like diseases and climate change, and even drive us around
> and cook for us! He doesn't think AI will take over the world or hurt
> people. Sam thinks humans will always be in charge of AI.
>
> So, who's right? I don't know! My magic ball's batteries are dead, so I
> can't tell you. But I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens!
>
> On Mon, 8 May 2023 at 23:42, Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>
> He's not lying, he is running his softmax function at a higher temperature
> to collect more samples in the vicinity of the truth.
>
> > On May 8, 2023, at 12:50 PM, glen  wrote:
> >
> > AI machines aren’t ‘hallucinating’. But their makers are.
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2023/may/08/ai-machines-hallucinating-naomi-klein
> >> Is all of this overly dramatic? A stuffy and reflexive resistance to
> exciting innovation? Why expect the worse? Altman reassures us: “Nobody
> wants to destroy the world.” Perhaps not. But as the ever-worsening climate
> and extinction crises show us every day, plenty of powerful people and
> institutions seem to be just fine knowing that they are helping to destroy
> the stability of the world’s life-support systems, so long as they can keep
> making record profits that they believe will protect them and their
> families from the worst effects. Altman, like many creatures of Silicon
> Valley, is himself a prepper: back in 2016, he boasted: “I have guns, gold,
> potassium iodide, antibiotics, batteries, water, gas masks from the Israeli
> Defense Force and a big patch of land in Big Sur I can fly to.”
> >> I’m pretty sure those facts say a lot more about what Altman actually
> believes about the future he is helping unleash than whatever flowery
> hallucinations he is choosing to share in press interviews.
> >
> >
> > --
> > ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
> >
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> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> > archives:  5/2017 thru present
> 

Re: [FRIAM] Cory Doctorow on AI hype vs Crypto Hype

[Gary Schiltz]

I love the graphic! I've had the misfortune of twice jumping on that roller
coaster just before the Peak of Inflated Expectation - once for the AI
boom/bust of the mid 1980s and once for the dotcom boom/bust of the late
1990s. Jumped on too late to make a killing, but didn't get too badly
damaged by the Trough of Disillusionment either.

On Thu, May 4, 2023 at 10:34 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

>
> https://doctorow.medium.com/the-ai-hype-bubble-is-the-new-crypto-hype-bubble-74e53028631e
>
> I *am* a fan of LLMs (not so much image generators) and blockchain (not so
> much crypto or NFTs) in their "best" uses (not that I or anyone else really
> knows what that is) in spite of my intrinsic neoLuddite affect.
>
> Nevertheless I think Doctorow in his usual acerbic and penetrating style
> really nails it well here IMO.
>
> I particularly appreciated his reference/quote to Emily Bender's "High on
> Supply" and "word/meaning conflation" in the sense of "don't mistake an
> accent for a personality" in the dating scene.
>
> A lot of my own contrarian commments on this forum come from resisting
> what Doctorow introduces (to me) as "CritiHype" (attributed to Lee
> Vinsel)...  the feeling that some folks make a (a)vocation out of kneejerk
> criticism.   It is much easier to *poke* at something than to *do*
> something worthy of being *poked at*.   I appreciate that Doctorow doesn't
> seem to (by my fairly uncritical eye) engage in this much himself...  which
> is why I was drawn into this article...
>
> I also very much appreciate his quote from Charlie Stross:
>
> *corporations are Slow AIs, autonomous artificial lifeforms that
> consistently do the wrong thing even when the people who nominally run them
> try to steer them in better directions:*
>
>
> *https://media.ccc.de/v/34c3-9270-dude_you_broke_the_future
>  *
>
>
> I could go on quoting and excerpting and commenting on his whole article
> and the myriad links/references he offers up but will curb my enthusiasm
> and leave it to the astute FriAM readers to choose how much to indulge
> in.   It was a pretty good antidote for my own AI-thusiasm driven by long
> chats with GPT4 (converging on being more like long sessions wandering
> through Wikipedia after the first 100 hours of engagement).
>
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Anyone on Friam know Linux capabilities on Pentium PCs ?

[Gary Schiltz]

Just my opinion, but I believe Linux is generally well suited for any
server task. Especially on older and slower hardware

On Wed, Apr 19, 2023 at 11:42 AM Sarbajit Roy  wrote:

> Hi Friamers
>
> Can any guide me if a Pentium PC server at 1,.5 GhZ with 4 GB RAM on a
> Linux version is capable of doing a certain task very reliably ?
>
> As it is a confidential thing, please message me directly.  I have to ask
> as I don't use Linux.
>
> regards
>
> Sarbajit Roy
> New Delhi India
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] AI Musings

[Gary Schiltz]

A... looking more closely, Grant wrote CxO not QxO. Google quickly
enlightened me on the former. Sorry for the noise.

On Fri, Mar 31, 2023 at 2:19 PM Gary Schiltz  wrote:
>
> I must admit my ignorance here, not aided in the least by a cursory
> Google search: What is QxO?
>
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 10:59 AM Grant Holland
>  wrote:
> >
> > Frank,
> >
> > I'm wondering why no-one seems to raise the specter that AI could start 
> > replacing management personnel. And I’m including CxO’s here; because I’m 
> > not convinced that CxO-ing is rocket science or quantum mechanics. Think of 
> > the billions saved. After all, if machine learning cannot get good at 
> > making better decisions than humans, and constantly improving at it, I 
> > would be very surprised.
> >
> > Grant
> >
> > On Mar 30, 2023, at 8:58 AM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
> >
> > Not particularly relevant to your main point but Raj Reddy, close colleague 
> > of Newell and Simon, once said, "It is easier use AI to replace a college 
> > professor than a bulldozer operator" or words tho that effect.
> >
> > Frank
> >
> > ---
> > Frank C. Wimberly
> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
> >
> > 505 670-9918
> > Santa Fe, NM
> >
> > On Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 8:50 AM Prof David West  wrote:
> >>
> >> The "AI Pause" made national TV news yesterday (long after those on this 
> >> list noted and reacted to it) and that made me revisit a theme I have 
> >> thought about since Newell, Simon, and Shaw created Logic Theorist.
> >>
> >> Advocates take a caricature (perhaps too strong a word) of human 
> >> intelligence, write a program to emulate it and declare the program 
> >> "intelligent."
> >>
> >> The original conceit: true intelligence was the kind of thinking exhibited 
> >> by college professors and scientists. Almost trivial to emulate (Newell 
> >> and Simon programmed Logic Theorist on 3x5 cards before Shaw was able to 
> >> implement on a computer).
> >>
> >> Maybe reading—correctly converting text to sound, like a child—was more 
> >> indicative of human intelligence, and Sejnowski created NetTalk. that, 
> >> somewhat eerily, produced discoveries of sounds, and errors, and achieved 
> >> near perfect ability to "read." Listen to the tapes sometime and contrast 
> >> them with tapes of a human child learning to read. Of course, 
> >> comprehension of what was read did not make the cut.
> >>
> >> State of the art improved dramatically and the caricatures of human 
> >> intelligence are more sophisticated and the achievements of the programs 
> >> more interesting.
> >>
> >> But, it seems to me there is still a critical gap. We can program an AI 
> >> (or let one learn) to fly a commercial jet as well or better than a human 
> >> pilot—BUT, could even the best of of breed of such an AI pull a 
> >> Shullenberger and land on the Hudson River?
> >>
> >> Another factor behind the "hysteria" (sorry for the sexism) over AIs 
> >> causing massive unemployment is a corollary to the caricaturization of 
> >> human intelligence. Since the Industrial Revolution, and certainly since 
> >> the age of Taylorism and the rise of automation; work itself has been 
> >> dehumanizing.
> >>
> >> If you define human work in terms of what can be done by a computer then 
> >> it is tautological to claim an AI is intelligent because it can perform 
> >> human work.
> >>
> >> I was contemplating ChatAIs and quickly realized that my 
> >> profession—college professor—was one at immense risk of replacement. I 
> >> would bet good money that a ChatAI could produce, and maybe deliver, 
> >> lectures far better than any I created in 30 years teaching. And probably 
> >> most, if not all, of the presentations I made at professional conferences 
> >> over the years.
> >>
> >> I am still vain enough to think that some of the papers and books I have 
> >> written are beyond an AI, and certain that no AI could do as well in 
> >> spontaneious Q after a presentation than I.
> >>
> >> Bottom line, I still believe that AI can and does equate to HI, only when 
> >> some aspect of HI is ommitted from the equation. This is not essentialism, 
> >> but analogous to the digitization of a sine wave, no matter the finite 
> >> sampling rate, there is a

Re: [FRIAM] AI Musings

[Gary Schiltz]

I must admit my ignorance here, not aided in the least by a cursory
Google search: What is QxO?

On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 10:59 AM Grant Holland
 wrote:
>
> Frank,
>
> I'm wondering why no-one seems to raise the specter that AI could start 
> replacing management personnel. And I’m including CxO’s here; because I’m not 
> convinced that CxO-ing is rocket science or quantum mechanics. Think of the 
> billions saved. After all, if machine learning cannot get good at making 
> better decisions than humans, and constantly improving at it, I would be very 
> surprised.
>
> Grant
>
> On Mar 30, 2023, at 8:58 AM, Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
> Not particularly relevant to your main point but Raj Reddy, close colleague 
> of Newell and Simon, once said, "It is easier use AI to replace a college 
> professor than a bulldozer operator" or words tho that effect.
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Thu, Mar 30, 2023, 8:50 AM Prof David West  wrote:
>>
>> The "AI Pause" made national TV news yesterday (long after those on this 
>> list noted and reacted to it) and that made me revisit a theme I have 
>> thought about since Newell, Simon, and Shaw created Logic Theorist.
>>
>> Advocates take a caricature (perhaps too strong a word) of human 
>> intelligence, write a program to emulate it and declare the program 
>> "intelligent."
>>
>> The original conceit: true intelligence was the kind of thinking exhibited 
>> by college professors and scientists. Almost trivial to emulate (Newell and 
>> Simon programmed Logic Theorist on 3x5 cards before Shaw was able to 
>> implement on a computer).
>>
>> Maybe reading—correctly converting text to sound, like a child—was more 
>> indicative of human intelligence, and Sejnowski created NetTalk. that, 
>> somewhat eerily, produced discoveries of sounds, and errors, and achieved 
>> near perfect ability to "read." Listen to the tapes sometime and contrast 
>> them with tapes of a human child learning to read. Of course, comprehension 
>> of what was read did not make the cut.
>>
>> State of the art improved dramatically and the caricatures of human 
>> intelligence are more sophisticated and the achievements of the programs 
>> more interesting.
>>
>> But, it seems to me there is still a critical gap. We can program an AI (or 
>> let one learn) to fly a commercial jet as well or better than a human 
>> pilot—BUT, could even the best of of breed of such an AI pull a 
>> Shullenberger and land on the Hudson River?
>>
>> Another factor behind the "hysteria" (sorry for the sexism) over AIs causing 
>> massive unemployment is a corollary to the caricaturization of human 
>> intelligence. Since the Industrial Revolution, and certainly since the age 
>> of Taylorism and the rise of automation; work itself has been dehumanizing.
>>
>> If you define human work in terms of what can be done by a computer then it 
>> is tautological to claim an AI is intelligent because it can perform human 
>> work.
>>
>> I was contemplating ChatAIs and quickly realized that my profession—college 
>> professor—was one at immense risk of replacement. I would bet good money 
>> that a ChatAI could produce, and maybe deliver, lectures far better than any 
>> I created in 30 years teaching. And probably most, if not all, of the 
>> presentations I made at professional conferences over the years.
>>
>> I am still vain enough to think that some of the papers and books I have 
>> written are beyond an AI, and certain that no AI could do as well in 
>> spontaneious Q after a presentation than I.
>>
>> Bottom line, I still believe that AI can and does equate to HI, only when 
>> some aspect of HI is ommitted from the equation. This is not essentialism, 
>> but analogous to the digitization of a sine wave, no matter the finite 
>> sampling rate, there is always some missing information.
>>
>> davew
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] a little help from my friends

[Gary Schiltz]

Though I'm a pretty rusty, out of practice programmer, I certainly
echo Frank's response pointing to readability. Not just the code
itself, but also (mainly?) in the documentation of the software
artefact, a straightforward diagram and discussion of how it fits into
an overall architecture. Complete with lots of simple, illustrative
examples of its capabilities and limitations.

On Thu, Mar 30, 2023 at 9:10 AM Prof David West  wrote:
>
> I am keynoting the International Conference on Code Quality on April 22. It 
> will be speculative and philosophical, but I would like to know "code 
> quality" might mean, is taken for granted to mean, to professional coders. I 
> know what it means for this conference, but would like a broader base from 
> which to launch my flights of fancy.
>
> davew
>
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Re: [FRIAM] [EXT] News Alert: Most young men are single. Most young women are not.

[Gary Schiltz]

A few really do want our species to go extinct, but many believe that we
are already overpopulated and need to level off or reduce population. I
lean only slightly toward the latter.

On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 12:51 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Agreed.  But if we don't construct any new ones and the existing ones
> all die (they will) we will run out.  Is that a reasonable goal?
>
> On Wed, Feb 22, 2023 at 10:20 AM glen  wrote:
>
>> We do not need more people. We have plenty of people. Please stop
>> constructing people. >8^D
>>
>> On 2/22/23 09:16, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> > I am worried however.  I have two grandsons in their 20s.  Each has a
>> girlfriend.  Those young women want nothing to do with babies.  I assume
>> they have younger siblings.  I hope that as they enter their 30s their
>> attitudes will change because of the realization that they are running out
>> of time.
>> >
>> > ---
>> > Frank C. Wimberly
>> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> 
>>
>> >
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> 
>> >
>> > 505 670-9918
>> > Santa Fe, NM
>> >
>> > On Wed, Feb 22, 2023, 10:08 AM Santafe > desm...@santafe.edu>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I think the keyword was young.
>> >
>> > You can do that if the old men are all married to young women.
>> >
>> >  > On Feb 22, 2023, at 12:02 PM, Nicholas Thompson <
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com > wrote:
>> >  >
>> >  > Last time I checked, the average number of attached males has to
>> equal the average number of attached females, unless, of course, females,
>> feel attached to men who don’t feel attached.
>> >  >
>> >  > Sent from my Dumb Phone
>> >  >
>> >  > Begin forwarded message:
>> >  >
>> >  > From: The Hill > theh...@email.thehill.com>>
>> >  > Date: February 22, 2023 at 7:01:34 AM MST
>> >  > To: nthomp...@clarku.edu 
>> >  > Subject: [EXT] News Alert: Most young men are single. Most young
>> women are not.
>> >  > Reply-To: emailt...@thehill.com 
>> >  >
>> >  > 
>> >  > View Online
>> >  >
>> >  >
>> >  >
>> >  >
>> >  >
>> >  > Most young men are single. Most young women are not.
>> >  > More than 60 percent of young men are single, nearly twice the
>> rate of unattached young women, signaling a larger breakdown in the social,
>> romantic and sexual life of the American male.
>> >  >
>> >  > Read the full story here.
>> >  >
>> >  >
>> >  >
>> >  >
>> >  >
>> >  >
>> >  > Manage Subscriptions | Sign Up for Other Newsletters |
>> Unsubscribe
>> >  >
>> >  > 1625 K Street NW, 9th Floor, Washington, DC 20006
>> 
>> >  >
>> >  > Copyright © 1998 - 2023 Nexstar Media Inc. | Privacy Policy |
>> Terms of Use
>> >  >
>> >  > To ensure you receive these emails in the future, please add
>> >  > theh...@email.thehill.com  to
>> your address book, contacts or safe senders list.
>> >  > If you believe this has been sent to you in error, please safely
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>>
>> --
>> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>>
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>
>
> --
> Frank Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
> 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
>
> Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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Re: [FRIAM] unrest in SoAm & Global ideological/sociopolitical/economic alignment...

[Gary Schiltz]

Steve, thanks for the perspective. It's interesting that the authors
of the paper dub the period of 1950-1975 as the "Golden Age" and then
go on to point out how badly Latin America has failed to exploit it. I
haven't read the paper yet (only your quote from it), but it seems
they are defining a golden age globally, not for Latin America. I
guess that would be the post-WWII era.

I'll try to break out of these darned bubbles :-)

On Fri, Jan 13, 2023 at 12:33 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
> Gary -
>
> Thanks for the on-the-ground response from the "middle of the world".  I 
> realize(d) you (like all of us) live in a bubble and I appreciate your 
> acknowledging the two impinging bubbles you recognize yourself to be 
> circumscribed by:  1) retired folk who avoid deep political thought; 2) 
> locals without the education or experience to see much beyond the local 
> community.
>
> In some ways this feels like a template for many of our own bubbles...   sort 
> of a 1) personal/professional/socioeconomic bubble; 2) geolocal bubble .   
> There are probably more and they may or may not overlap significantly.   I 
> use FriAM to try to force some of my own bubbles to impinge on one another, 
> or perhaps to explore the interstices between the otherwise natural 
> impingements...
>
> I'm not a regular (only dropped in once or twice) vFriam participant, and I 
> don't know about Merle, I think she may make a better effort than I and could 
> probably be drawn into making an appearance for a topic *like* this if you 
> were interested.   I'll ping her offline as well to see if she might be 
> interested/available to vFriAM up on this (or some vaguely related) topic 
> next week?
>
> - Steve
>
> Regarding "the Golden Age of Latin America", I found this (working) paper 
> which moderately reflects what I think of as "the Golden Age".  I think they 
> acknowledge (and maybe even explain) what you have 
> experienced/observed/believe about "keeping Latin America dirt poor":
>
> On the Latin American Growth Paradox: A Hindsight into the Golden Age
> Giorgia Barboni∗and Tania Treibich† November 12, 2010
> https://www.econstor.eu/bitstream/10419/89360/1/64049434X.pdf
>
>
> In 1950, Latin American countries’ capabilities were promising: however, some 
> other countries starting at the same level, or even below, made a better use 
> of their initial endowments. At the time, countries like Argentina and 
> Venezuela had a higher GDP per capita than other European countries belonging 
> to the developed world today (Italy, Spain...) and many East Asian countries 
> that have managed to catch up with the Western World in the last decades (see 
> Figure 1 below). Indeed, the data on GDP per capita over the last 60 years 
> reveals that since 1950, Latin American countries have diverged from the 
> Western World. With a GDP growth rate between 4 and 5 percent, they have 
> fallen behind Europe which economy has reached a 20,000 dollars per capita 
> level today. The Latin American countries grew slowly until 1980 and, from 
> then, their GDP per capita growth has been stationary. The only exception 
> would be Chile which after a period of slow growth started an expansion 
> period in 1980s, converging to the highest levels. Asian countries in 
> comparison followed a convergence path, starting way lower and reaching the 
> European levels of GDP per capita after fifty years of catching up. Castaldi 
> et al. (2008(16)) point out that this divergence can also be measured by the 
> widening productivity gap between Latin America and the international 
> frontier in the last decades. Other indicators of education and science may 
> also support the hypothesis that back then, Latin American countries had a 
> big potential for convergence. Argentina, for example, was thought to be so 
> promising that it could join the innovators’ club (Castaldi et al., 
> 2008(16)). Then, what happened during the Golden Age (1950-1975) that 
> prevented South American countries to exploit this potential for growth?
>
> Which is naturally just one perspective, but provides the basic idea of what 
> said "Golden Age" was/is/might-be.
>
>
> On 1/13/23 9:33 AM, Gary Schiltz wrote:
>
> Despite living here in the middle of the world, I'm afraid I don't
> give these ideas enogh serious thought these days. I interact mostly
> with people who are retired and avoid deep political thought, and with
> locals who don't have the education or experience to see much beyond
> the local community. I REALLY MUST make myself make it a priority to
> start attending the VFriam meetings on Thursday. It might be valuable.
> I wonder, does Merle ever tune in? She seems the most socially
> c

Re: [FRIAM] unrest in SoAm & Global ideological/sociopolitical/economic alignment...

[Gary Schiltz]

Despite living here in the middle of the world, I'm afraid I don't
give these ideas enogh serious thought these days. I interact mostly
with people who are retired and avoid deep political thought, and with
locals who don't have the education or experience to see much beyond
the local community. I REALLY MUST make myself make it a priority to
start attending the VFriam meetings on Thursday. It might be valuable.
I wonder, does Merle ever tune in? She seems the most socially
concerned (maybe even hopeful?) person on the list.

By the way, I wasn't aware that there ever was a "Golden Age of Latin
America". Care to elaborate? My view (shaped perhaps too much by
reading "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" in the early 2000s) is
that Latin America has always been dirt poor, just like the more
developed world wants it to be. First under the thumb of the USA and
USSR/Russia, and now China. No wonder dictators thrive here.

On Thu, Jan 12, 2023 at 1:31 PM Steve Smith  wrote:
>
> GaryS, et al  -
>
> I was recently trying to make a little more sense of the larger 
> sociopolitical situation across central/south America and realized that your 
> location in Ecuador might provide some useful parallax.
>
> https://www.as-coa.org/articles/2023-elections-latin-america-preview
>
> I was (not?) surprised to read that there was a renewed interest in "regional 
> integration".This article references Lula and Obrador and several other 
> Latin American leaders who might be attempting a broader ideological (and 
> economic) alignment/cooperation across the region.
>
> https://www.bloomberglinea.com/english/will-lula-achieve-regional-integration-in-latin-america/
>
> With the unrest of the summer triggered? by energy/fossil-fuel prices it 
> seems like Ecuador has become (temporarily, modestly) unbalanced which seems 
> like an opportunity for change, whether for better or worse.   I see in the 
> first article (Elections Preview) that Lasso has a very low approval rating 
> and the upcoming (February) elections might include/yield a recall for him?
>


> I lived on the border of AZ/MX as a teen in the early 70s and the recent 
> memory/residue of the Golden Age of Latin America was still evident.  The 
> Mexican border town (Agua Prieta) still had moderately grand facilities and 
> institutions (e.g.  A huge library with elaborate fountains on the grounds, 
> etc) even though they were not able to support them in that grandeur...   So 
> I think I still have an ideation that Latin America has many of the resources 
> or (hidden) momentum to achieve a resurgence of some sort.
>
> These reflections are partly triggered by this interview/article produced by 
> WBUR/Boston and distributed via NPR:
>
> https://www.wbur.org/onpoint/2023/01/11/8-billion-earth-population-rise-human
>
> Which reminded me that while we *do* have a total-population problem with our 
> 8B and rising numbers (and 90+ % of land animal by mass being human or human 
> domesticates), the *distribution* of people, and more to the point the 
> demographic fecundity/fertility distribution is very uneven and in fact seems 
> to be inversely proportional to various features of human civilization 
> ranging from GDP to education to technological development.Some (like 
> DJT) turn this into a judgement and a reason for resentment/fear (e.g. S*hole 
> country labels) but others have a more progressive view.   An excerpt from 
> the WBUR interview/article:
>
> Jennifer Sciubba: "We're moving toward this aging and shrinking world, and we 
> are worried because we can't sustain that same huge level of economic growth 
> in the past. And we do need to think about what that might look like, so we 
> can look relook at concepts like retirement. We can look at concepts like 
> what is work life. We also, though, have to start thinking about family and 
> marriage. And, you know, we're talking about a paradigmatic shift.
>
> "That means we have to look at the world through a completely different lens 
> than we've looked at the world in the past. But all of our theories about the 
> good life, our economic theories, our political theories, those were all 
> developed under conditions of population growth and economic growth, as 
> William said. So it's really hard to get a paradigmatic shift and say, what 
> if we try to look at the world in a different way? Can we look at an aging 
> and shrinking society as a good thing? Can we look at growing older 
> individually as a good thing? We've not been good at that. And so we're kind 
> of taking that negativity and applying it at the societal level."
>
> This passage specifically references aging (individual and population) but 
> there are other references to economic/technological disparities.
>
> I also defer here to others who have an international POV (e.g. Pieter in 
> South Africa,  Sarbajit in India, Jochen in Germany, and I believe we have 
> someone from Cuba, I think we lost (off the list) Mohammed from 

Re: [FRIAM] new thermal tech

[Gary Schiltz]

Amusing indeed (the PV magazine article). The pump “reportedly
produces 3 kW to 4 kW of heat for every kilowatt of power it
consumes”. Say what?

On Fri, Jan 6, 2023 at 8:28 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
> I was amused to see an announcement of a thermoacoustic heat pump  the other 
> day:
>
>   
> https://www.pv-magazine.com/2023/01/02/residential-thermo-acoustic-heat-pump-produces-water-up-to-80-c/
>
> then an ionocaloric refrigerator announcement turns up this morning
>
>   https://newscenter.lbl.gov/2023/01/03/cool-new-method-of-refrigeration/
>
> It seems that you won't recognize your air conditioner in a few years.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] vFriam on Thursday

[Gary Schiltz]

I keep meaning to attend but seem to always be busy. I promise to try next
Thursday.

On Thu, Dec 29, 2022 at 12:20 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> As of 10:15 no one has arrived.  Last week Barry attended for about an
> hour.  Jack came briefly.  Nick arrived after the others had left.  I made
> him a co-host so he could admit others.
>
> Nick is back in Santa Fe.  Jack Lives in Los Alamos.  I would like to see
> comments about whether vFriam has outlived its usefulness or how to
> reorganize it.
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] technical notes on fusion announcement

[Gary Schiltz]

We humans tend to think of such long-term thinking as silly, frivolous mind
exercises for the elite educated. I would applaud such thinking. But
western civilization has trouble with seven generations, let alone seven
million generations.

On Fri, Dec 16, 2022 at 3:21 PM David Eric Smith 
wrote:

> I doubt the answer would be interesting, but one could give it as a Fermi
> problem to an undergraduate geology class (who don’t do Fermi problems; but
> the physicists won’t know any geology).
> ...
> How much, for how long, can we extract, until the inner core grows enough
> that the geodynamo shuts down, ending the Earth’s magnetic field, the van
> Allen belts etc., and exposing the atmosphere directly to spalling by
> protons from the solar wind?
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Find String in Spreadsheet

[Gary Schiltz]

Instead of digging into the guts of Excel with Visual Basic, I think
it would be about as easy (and maybe more fun) to import the
spreadsheet into a database that you could query. If I were to take a
first crack at it, I would first export the Excel file to a comma
separated values file (CSV file). Then install MySQL and MySQL
Workbench. It wouldn't surprise me if there was a Workbench option to
import a CSV file as a new table in the current database. Then you
could write plain SQL queries to look for the data you want, or go as
far as writing some Java code using JDBC to do the queries.

Or instead of MySQL and Workbench, you could try LibreOffice Base (the
database component) to accomplish the same thing. This would be the
open source equivalent of using Microsoft Access.

All this from memory and speculation, of course (isn't that what us
FRIAM'ers are best at?)..

Gary

On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 11:20 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:
>
> Thanks, Brent.
>
> Stanford published a spreadsheet with about 200,000 researchers.  Each row 
> contains name, institution name, country, etc.  I want to be able to search 
> for the data about a given individual, the people associated with an 
> institution, etc.
>
> I used to program macros in VBA but I only did it for a few months and that 
> was about 15 years ago.
>
> Frank
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, Nov 26, 2022, 9:03 AM Brent Auble  wrote:
>>
>> If you just want to find something, using the Find option from the menu will 
>> work and it should give you the option of searching within the current sheet 
>> or across all sheets in the workbook. If there are multiple results, it 
>> should pop up a docked window at the bottom of the spreadsheet to show 
>> everything it's found.
>>
>> However, if you want to do it programmatically, I'm not sure if any of the 
>> built-in functions (formulas) will handle that well, mostly because of the 
>> complexity of handling multiple results. Excel functions try really hard to 
>> just return single values so they can populate just the cell they're in. 
>> There are some exceptions, where a formula will run and put its results in 
>> multiple other cells, but those are uncommon because they can 
>> indiscriminately overwrite existing cell values.
>>
>> The is likely a capability in the Visual Basic language used for scripting 
>> Excel to handle searching, but it's not something I've used before (despite 
>> having done a good bit of Excel VBA in the past).
>>
>> What are you trying to accomplish?
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Brent
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Nov 26, 2022 at 10:42 AM, Frank Wimberly
>>  wrote:
>> I used to know Excel pretty well but that was decades ago.  I want to find a 
>> given string, say "Wimberly" in a large spreadsheet.  How do I do that 
>> simply?  FIND function wants to provide the location within a larger string 
>> of a substring.  I want something like the Unix "grep' command.
>>
>> --
>> Frank Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> 505 670-9918
>>
>> Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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Re: [FRIAM] phones with keyboards, or a keyboard you can buy for a phone?

[Gary Schiltz]

I get by with a two year old iPhone SE. I also hate typing on glass,
but I have a laptop for typing.

On Sun, Oct 30, 2022 at 11:01 AM Gillian Densmore
 wrote:
>
> Hello, all looking for phone recommendations. My pixel 4a is 2 years old 
> feeling closer to 4.
> Are there any phones you can get with a keyboard? I know about unihertz's 
> titan. and it amuses me. But niche brand. I just don't like typing on glass, 
> and being frustrated with the amount of errors I get.
> What about a case that'd have a keyboard that'd slide out? that'd be fine.
> after that I'm looking for good  battery, nice aesthetics and. fun features 
> also would be fantastic. I'm thinking of how apples phones now let you use 
> lidar to scan stuff to convert to photosomethingery  in 3D. Or how older 
> phones you could theme.
> I'd prefer the refurbed (on GP): both to reduce waste and sane prices. 
> 600-900+ for phones is just bad. Where as 300-500 is at least sane.
> What all do folks pay for phones? any recommendations?
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Re: [FRIAM] Portland interruption but my laughable internet keeps going down

[Gary Schiltz]

Where in Santa Fe do you live? I ask only out of idle curiosity, since I
now live 6378 km from Santa Fe (check out the cool earth distance
calculator at https://keisan.casio.com/exec/system/1224587128). But having
lived in Pecos for 10 years and being in Santa Fe most of those days for
work, internet speed still interests me. When I left NM in 2008, I was
still on dialup out in Pecos (28.8 kbps on a very good day with Cybermesa),
although someone was installing wireless in the area (512 kbps was the top
speed even with the "high speed" plan, if I recall). And the local phone
carrier (Centurytel if I recall the name correctly) kept offering broken
promises of DSL. Here in rural Ecuador, I only have semi-decent access by
learning wireless tech myself and installing thousands of dollars worth of
equipment on my own tower and on my provider's tower 15 Km distant. Still,
it's cost prohibitive to get much over 20-30 Mbps, although prices are
steadily going down. Here at the end of several multiples of the "last
mile" phenomenon, microwave is really the only way to bridge the gap, and
on rugged mountainous terrain heavily forested with tall trees, like here,
it is often expensive.

On Tue, Sep 20, 2022 at 1:55 AM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> Okay this is enough I am sick of this this BS ends. Who do I not vote for
> so that we can finally get real internet out today alone I've had 15
> outages the other dents more thinks the DSL is a good enough feel over
> solution Man I'm sorry but DSL is just not internet these days I wish it
> was but no no no no no when you're file size is or in an excess of 20 GB 30
> GB whatever I mean yeah that's disgustingly large but that's just the
> reality of the world that I take as it stands .
>
>
> What the hell do I do to get real 300 MB each way I'm not going to
> compromise this time I did that too many times.
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] dystopian vision(s)

[Gary Schiltz]

I wonder what proportion of people worldwide, like me, see "urban" places
as mainly, at best, necessary evils. Maybe it's mainly an American
phenomenon, maybe a bourgeoisie idea for only those who can afford land.

On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 8:23 AM glen  wrote:

> At the top of my LIFO stack of dystopian things has been "The Line":
>
> https://www.neom.com/en-us/regions/theline
>
> Pushed by a ruthless monarchy, funded by fossil fuels, bulldozing
> indigenous lands, ... yikes.
>
> But I now have a new one on the stack:
>
> https://www.mojo.vision/mojo-lens/
>
> Unlike bin Salman, these guys seem well-intentioned. But sheesh. I can't
> even imagine wearing that.
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
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to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
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  1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/

Re: [FRIAM] "tech" companies suck

[Gary Schiltz]

I see that 22 years after Y2K, I've already forgotten how to spell
millennia, and that the singular is millennium. Maybe I need to write a
WhatsApp message to myself as a reminder :-)

On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 11:14 AM Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> Here in Ecuador, group chat is very widespread. Unfortunately (?) it is
> mostly through informal WhatsApp groups. Email is *so* last millenia, and
> even FaceBook has mostly given way to Instagram, TikTok, whatever. Yuck. I
> especially dislike WhatsApp groups because it has even taken over some
> institutions, such as the foundation that I'm working with. The biggest
> problems are that the identity of each person is tied to their phone
> number, and there is no central archive of its content. For the former, if
> a person loses their phone, they have no way to recover their chat history,
> and unless person B has person A's information (name, etc.), person B only
> sees the phone number of person A, hence having no idea who is who until
> they add all these people to their phone's contact list. For the second,
> institutions tend to lose their collective memory, unless someone is in the
> group from start to finish, and somehow maintains an archive of past
> conversations.
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 10:32 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
>> I've lately run into two mentions of "group chat" as the organizing
>> principle of social media for the day.  You keep different groups for
>> different purposes, and you don't let social media into the chat.  I think
>> Friam actually functions as a group chat, aside from google scanning
>> everything.  But technically it's a Gen-Z thing, so we obviously don't know
>> what we're doing.
>>
>> It was a neighbor group chat that busted the Ted Cruz Cancun getaway plan
>> in February 2021, while Texans froze to death or were bankrupted by spikes
>> in electric rates.
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>> On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 8:53 AM glen  wrote:
>>
>>> It's an interesting question. Someone posted a poll on a Mastodon server
>>> recently, something like "What is it you want from all this stuff? (E.g.
>>> Twitter, Facebook, ...)" The possible answers were things like
>>> "Friendship", "Connectedness", etc. There was an "Other", which I filled
>>> in. I wrote something like: "The state of the world. When I was younger, I
>>> read the newspaper and watched the daily news on one of the big 3 networks.
>>> Now, it feels like everything's all fractured. TV news is for ancient, out
>>> of touch people. The newspaper is neither local, nor does it tell
>>> interesting national or international stories. So, I use these media, like
>>> 12-20 different outlets just to get some sense of the state of the world."
>>>
>>> I wish I had a better answer to "where do you find this stuff". It can
>>> be exhausting trying to stay informed. Fora like FriAM help a bit.
>>>
>>> On 8/13/22 17:57, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>>> >
>>> > And where do find this stuff glen >_<
>>> >
>>> > On Wed, Aug 10, 2022 at 2:41 PM glen >> geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>> >
>>> > __
>>> >
>>> https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7zevd/this-is-the-data-facebook-gave-police-to-prosecute-a-teenager-for-abortion
>>> <
>>> https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7zevd/this-is-the-data-facebook-gave-police-to-prosecute-a-teenager-for-abortion
>>> >
>>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>>
>>> --
>>> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>>>
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
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Re: [FRIAM] "tech" companies suck

[Gary Schiltz]

Here in Ecuador, group chat is very widespread. Unfortunately (?) it is
mostly through informal WhatsApp groups. Email is *so* last millenia, and
even FaceBook has mostly given way to Instagram, TikTok, whatever. Yuck. I
especially dislike WhatsApp groups because it has even taken over some
institutions, such as the foundation that I'm working with. The biggest
problems are that the identity of each person is tied to their phone
number, and there is no central archive of its content. For the former, if
a person loses their phone, they have no way to recover their chat history,
and unless person B has person A's information (name, etc.), person B only
sees the phone number of person A, hence having no idea who is who until
they add all these people to their phone's contact list. For the second,
institutions tend to lose their collective memory, unless someone is in the
group from start to finish, and somehow maintains an archive of past
conversations.

On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 10:32 AM Roger Critchlow  wrote:

> I've lately run into two mentions of "group chat" as the organizing
> principle of social media for the day.  You keep different groups for
> different purposes, and you don't let social media into the chat.  I think
> Friam actually functions as a group chat, aside from google scanning
> everything.  But technically it's a Gen-Z thing, so we obviously don't know
> what we're doing.
>
> It was a neighbor group chat that busted the Ted Cruz Cancun getaway plan
> in February 2021, while Texans froze to death or were bankrupted by spikes
> in electric rates.
>
> -- rec --
>
> On Mon, Aug 15, 2022 at 8:53 AM glen  wrote:
>
>> It's an interesting question. Someone posted a poll on a Mastodon server
>> recently, something like "What is it you want from all this stuff? (E.g.
>> Twitter, Facebook, ...)" The possible answers were things like
>> "Friendship", "Connectedness", etc. There was an "Other", which I filled
>> in. I wrote something like: "The state of the world. When I was younger, I
>> read the newspaper and watched the daily news on one of the big 3 networks.
>> Now, it feels like everything's all fractured. TV news is for ancient, out
>> of touch people. The newspaper is neither local, nor does it tell
>> interesting national or international stories. So, I use these media, like
>> 12-20 different outlets just to get some sense of the state of the world."
>>
>> I wish I had a better answer to "where do you find this stuff". It can be
>> exhausting trying to stay informed. Fora like FriAM help a bit.
>>
>> On 8/13/22 17:57, Gillian Densmore wrote:
>> >
>> > And where do find this stuff glen >_<
>> >
>> > On Wed, Aug 10, 2022 at 2:41 PM glen > geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>> >
>> > __
>> >
>> https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7zevd/this-is-the-data-facebook-gave-police-to-prosecute-a-teenager-for-abortion
>> <
>> https://www.vice.com/en/article/n7zevd/this-is-the-data-facebook-gave-police-to-prosecute-a-teenager-for-abortion
>> >
>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>
>> --
>> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
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Re: [FRIAM] stranger than fiction

[Gary Schiltz]

It hasn't yet affected our reserves, but there is quite a lot of mining in
the region.

On Wed, Aug 3, 2022 at 7:54 AM glen  wrote:

> I don't know if ENAMI EP affects any of the reserves. But FWIW:
>
> https://ddosecrets.com/wiki/ENAMI_EP
> "Hacked emails from the state mining company of Ecuador, founded under
> Rafael Correa's administration and responsible for the over-development and
> destruction of indigenous lands."
>
>
> On 7/27/22 09:50, Gary Schiltz wrote:
> > Yes, it’s for the birds. The IT infrastructure for the group is a
> chaotic mess. I’m trying to bring a bit of order to the chaos. Both IT wise
> and organization wise. I’ve never been much of a Microsoft fan, but their
> transition to the cloud seems pretty impressive so far. BTW, here’s the
> foundation I volunteer for.
> >
> > mindocloudforest.org <http://mindocloudforest.org>
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
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Re: [FRIAM] stranger than fiction

[Gary Schiltz]

I should mention that the website is in need of serious updating.

On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 11:50 AM Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> Yes, it’s for the birds. The IT infrastructure for the group is a chaotic
> mess. I’m trying to bring a bit of order to the chaos. Both IT wise and
> organization wise. I’ve never been much of a Microsoft fan, but their
> transition to the cloud seems pretty impressive so far. BTW, here’s the
> foundation I volunteer for.
>
> mindocloudforest.org
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 10:16 AM Stephen Guerin <
> stephen.gue...@simtable.com> wrote:
>
>> Gary,
>>
>> I bet that Microsoft software is for the birds.  :-)
>>
>> or is your nonprofit dealing with community broadband?
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 8:42 AM Gary Schiltz 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am the geek guy for a small nonprofit foundation here in Ecuador and I
>>> must say that at least a few software companies are fairly generous with
>>> licensing for academic and nonprofit organizations. Microsoft has been
>>> particularly helpful.
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 8:48 PM Jon Zingale 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> """Current in silico software is only accessible to large
>>>> pharmaceutical companies willing to pay obnoxious licensing fees. Students
>>>> in every country no matter their university, startup companies to Fortune
>>>> 500s, and even dedicated hobbyists will all have the same opportunity to
>>>> design new molecules to change the future of drug discovery," said Shkreli,
>>>> co-founder of Druglike."""
>>>>
>>>> FWIW, my company's software is free to academics. This article hides
>>>> the fact that the majority of the economic barrier to entry is not
>>>> licensing but the cost of performing the large-scale simulations necessary
>>>> to do docking, md, generating conformers, or what-have-you. Drug discovery
>>>> is computationally hard and if AWS or whoever is going to ultimately charge
>>>> for compute then someone along the path will need to pay for that compute.
>>>> Just my two cents.
>>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>>
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
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>>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] stranger than fiction

[Gary Schiltz]

Yes, it’s for the birds. The IT infrastructure for the group is a chaotic
mess. I’m trying to bring a bit of order to the chaos. Both IT wise and
organization wise. I’ve never been much of a Microsoft fan, but their
transition to the cloud seems pretty impressive so far. BTW, here’s the
foundation I volunteer for.

mindocloudforest.org

On Wed, Jul 27, 2022 at 10:16 AM Stephen Guerin 
wrote:

> Gary,
>
> I bet that Microsoft software is for the birds.  :-)
>
> or is your nonprofit dealing with community broadband?
>
>
> On Wed, Jul 27, 2022, 8:42 AM Gary Schiltz 
> wrote:
>
>> I am the geek guy for a small nonprofit foundation here in Ecuador and I
>> must say that at least a few software companies are fairly generous with
>> licensing for academic and nonprofit organizations. Microsoft has been
>> particularly helpful.
>>
>> On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 8:48 PM Jon Zingale  wrote:
>>
>>> """Current in silico software is only accessible to large pharmaceutical
>>> companies willing to pay obnoxious licensing fees. Students in every
>>> country no matter their university, startup companies to Fortune 500s, and
>>> even dedicated hobbyists will all have the same opportunity to design new
>>> molecules to change the future of drug discovery," said Shkreli, co-founder
>>> of Druglike."""
>>>
>>> FWIW, my company's software is free to academics. This article hides the
>>> fact that the majority of the economic barrier to entry is not licensing
>>> but the cost of performing the large-scale simulations necessary to do
>>> docking, md, generating conformers, or what-have-you. Drug discovery is
>>> computationally hard and if AWS or whoever is going to ultimately charge
>>> for compute then someone along the path will need to pay for that compute.
>>> Just my two cents.
>>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
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Re: [FRIAM] stranger than fiction

[Gary Schiltz]

I am the geek guy for a small nonprofit foundation here in Ecuador and I
must say that at least a few software companies are fairly generous with
licensing for academic and nonprofit organizations. Microsoft has been
particularly helpful.

On Tue, Jul 26, 2022 at 8:48 PM Jon Zingale  wrote:

> """Current in silico software is only accessible to large pharmaceutical
> companies willing to pay obnoxious licensing fees. Students in every
> country no matter their university, startup companies to Fortune 500s, and
> even dedicated hobbyists will all have the same opportunity to design new
> molecules to change the future of drug discovery," said Shkreli, co-founder
> of Druglike."""
>
> FWIW, my company's software is free to academics. This article hides the
> fact that the majority of the economic barrier to entry is not licensing
> but the cost of performing the large-scale simulations necessary to do
> docking, md, generating conformers, or what-have-you. Drug discovery is
> computationally hard and if AWS or whoever is going to ultimately charge
> for compute then someone along the path will need to pay for that compute.
> Just my two cents.
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> https://bit.ly/virtualfriam
> to (un)subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> archives:  5/2017 thru present
> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>   1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>
-. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom 
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Re: [FRIAM] Birx presentation

[Gary Schiltz]

I imagine they are, but don’t call me Surely.

On Thu, Jun 23, 2022 at 12:23 PM glen  wrote:

> This was a good presentation. If I get a minute later today, I'll try to
> find the slides. Shirley they're available somewhere?
>
> https://youtu.be/r7ubPjYHHYQ?t=913
>
> --
> ꙮ Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙ ꙮ
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Sig

[Gary Schiltz]

Same for me, Frank. The bit.ly link itself points to the unsubscribe link.

On Wed, Jun 1, 2022 at 1:20 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> When I try to select the link for copying the "un/subscribe" comes with
> it.  Does anyone else experience this?
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, Jun 1, 2022, 11:47 AM glen  wrote:
>
>> Looks fine to me. There's a line feed + carriage return between them.
>>
>> On 6/1/22 10:43, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> > Can someone fix the signature file.  The bitly link is concatenated
>> with "unsubscribe ".
>> >
>> >
>> > ---
>> > Frank C. Wimberly
>> > 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> > Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> >
>> > 505 670-9918
>> > Santa Fe, NM
>> >
>> > -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> > Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> > archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
>> >1/2003 thru 6/2021  http://friam.383.s1.nabble.com/
>>
>> --
>> Mɥǝu ǝlǝdɥɐuʇs ɟᴉƃɥʇ' ʇɥǝ ƃɹɐss snɟɟǝɹs˙
>>
>> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
>> bit.ly/virtualfriam
>> un/subscribe 
>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
>> FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>> archives:  5/2017 thru present
>> https://redfish.com/pipermail/friam_redfish.com/
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>>
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> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
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> bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe 
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> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Thursday Friam

[Gary Schiltz]

I’ll try to make it some Thursday. That time works for me. Please send the
link again.

On Sun, May 8, 2022 at 2:23 PM  wrote:

> Sounds good to me.   Soon that’ll be noon, my time.  Breakfast.
>
>
>
> N
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
> *Sent:* Sunday, May 8, 2022 12:44 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Thursday Friam
>
>
>
> How would it work to change the time of the Thursday meeting to 10:30am
> MDT?  A number of regulars don't arrive until that time anyway and a
> conflict has emerged for me at 9:00.
>
>
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
> -. --- - / ...- .- .-.. .. -.. / -- --- .-. ... . / -.-. --- -.. .
> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> Fridays 9a-12p Friday St. Johns Cafe   /   Thursdays 9a-12p Zoom
> bit.ly/virtualfriam
> un/subscribe 
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> archives:  5/2017 thru present
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] The Insurrection Index

[Gary Schiltz]

I’m in favor of what you describe, David. Good luck getting legislation in
the USA passed that would enable that. (sarcasm mode on) Speaking of the
word “enable”, I believe the pushback would be that such laws would be
enablers by decreasing the risk of taking drugs. The risk makes drugs less
appealing. Hell, you might just as well hand out birth control to teenagers
and be a teen sex enabler. F’ing Pervert. As we all know, only abstinence
works. (sarcasm mode off)

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 12:50 PM Prof David West 
wrote:

> glen is describing the actual situation in Europe. I went to a lot of
> events where there was a table by the entrance where you could test the
> drugs (including heroin and opioids that remain very illegal there) you
> would be using at the event (and afterwords). This prevented both overdoses
> (you knew the strength of what you were taking) and foreign elements like
> fentanyl.
>
> Not only was the event made safer, there appeared to be back stream
> pressure to the sellers and even to the manufacturers, because people knew
> who gave them bad or over cut drugs and refused to buy from them anymore.
> There were lots of conversations around the testing table about sources of
> drugs and who could be trusted.
>
> BTW, the tables were usually manned by volunteers from mainstream and
> government labs / medical institutions and were given paid time off (unless
> it was nights or weekends) to volunteer. But the institution and the
> government were not directly involved.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022, at 9:29 AM, glen wrote:
> > Hm. My conception of HR seems completely orthogonal to yours. It
> > *enables* liberty and autonomy. But the way you're describing it,
> > "do-gooder", "interfere", "spirals", "homeostasis", etc., it sounds
> > like an attempt to *manipulate* the users.
> >
> > It's nothing like that. By taking my street drug to someone who knows
> > how to test it, I'm ensuring that my *intention* is satisfied. "I don't
> > want to take a bunch of strychnine. I want to take a bunch of LSD." HR
> > is assisting the drug user in their use of drugs, not attempting to
> > stop the drug user from using drugs. It's similar with other drugs like
> > heroin. "I don't want to overdose. I want to get high." HR helps ensure
> > your dosage is appropriate to your *intent*.
> >
> > Yes, of course the teatotalers and prohibitionists need to be persuaded
> > to do something other than the stupidity of the drug war. So, to appeal
> > to those do-gooder types, we can explain that a *side effect* of HR is
> > that those who don't actually intend to get high, they're just trapped
> > in some bad attractor, they will be helped out of that attractor. But
> > don't confuse the side effect with the purpose.
> >
> >
> > On 1/7/22 09:10, Steve Smith wrote:
> >>
> >> On 1/7/22 7:01 AM, glen wrote:
> >>> .. And perhaps it's a manifestation of whatever
> core physiology it is that binds the [ma|pa]ternal-individual perspectives
> into a triangle. HR seems to cut a comfortable, practical slice through the
> mess, much like what I imagine a steely-yet-kind affect would look like.
> >> I do have an affinity for the  Harm Reduction conception to a degree,
> and see how it can break the "downward spiral" that I think is implied here
> (I feel bad; I take risks/drugs to feel better; I get caught/judged; I feel
> bad;etc).   Someone once told me "you are always either spiraling up or
> spiraling down in this world, it is the choices you make at any given
> instant which you are doing". Even homeostasis ideation leaves room for a
> mix of up/down spiraling within some limits.   I don't have a lot of
> experience with drug (or other harsh) recovery up close, but I have known a
> lot of mild addicts... people whose drug/alcohol/sex/spending/exercise
> addictions *seem* to interfere with their quality of life and have tried
> (only mildly) to bump them onto new trajectories.   I would say all of them
> were in some kind of dynamic homeostasis that had worked for them for years
> if not decades, and who was I to interfere with their patterns which were
> by some measure, actually working.
> >>> I haven't. But I'd *like* to buy some street drugs and take it to,
> say, a rave and have the HR team test it just to get a feel for that
> process from the user's perspective. I think I can project how it might
> feel to be on the HR team. But I really don't have any idea how the users
> feel about it. One of my neighbors back in Oregon, I'm speculating, would
> have thought the HR team was part of the "deep state" ... or spies for the
> DEA. But I've known many drug users who are more rational than she was.
> >>
> >> The major proponents of HR that I know of tend to be do-gooders who
> believe they are "saving people".   That is not to say that they don't have
> some successes, and that the spirit is a good one, but to the extent I have
> had people (try to) interfere in my life, it is generally unwelcome (until

Re: [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??

[Gary Schiltz]

While I’m not particularly a big fan of Bezos the cowboy billionaire, I do
like Amazon the marketplace. Lots of small and large retailers offering
goods from all over the world (okay, China) with buyers’ ability to comment
on and rate the products. With a behemoth at least sort of standing behind
those products on behalf of the buyers. The closest thing we have down here
in the wild west of the third world is Mercado Libre, but that’s not even
close to Amazon Marketplace.

On Sun, Jan 2, 2022 at 2:38 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> I can see living without Facebook (I do), but why can't we live with
> Amazon?   It seems like they did a pretty good job of displacing the likes
> of Walmart.  It could happen again.  What added inherent value do stores
> have, other than as a mechanism to prevent he consolidation of market
> influence w.r.t. to prices?
> --
> *From:* Friam  on behalf of
> thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> *Sent:* Sunday, January 2, 2022 12:03 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Roger Mcnamee !!??
>
>
> I just listened to this podcast
>
>
>
> https://feeds.megaphone.fm/VMP5489734702
>
>
>
> a conversation between the former prosecutor, Joyce Vance, and the
> musician, financier, turncoat Facebook investor Roger Mcnamee, who likens
> this moment with big tech to the moment before the food industry
> regulations of the early 1900’s and anti-pollution legislation of the 60’s,
> moments when Da People reasserted control over over-weening industry
> interests.  He is author of the book, *Zucked*.
>
>
>
> An hour-long pod cast is a terribly inefficient way to learn about
> something, so I hope that one you, for whom none of this is news, can offer
> a more condensed source.
>
>
>
> We are basically talking about the Amazon paradox, here: can’t live with
> it; can’t live without it.  How much ARE we willing to pay to have the
> trains run on time?
>
>
>
> As usual, I am in need of instruction.
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] Windows 11 and X

[Gary Schiltz]

That’s pretty darn cool.

On Fri, Nov 5, 2021 at 9:50 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> In case anyone is forced to use Windows:  I do believe Microsoft finally
> figured out a nice way to handle X11 with WSL2 in Windows 11.
>
> Ubuntu can be installed from the Microsoft Store and when the terminal is
> brought up it has the DISPLAY variable set by default.   No
> installing/starting a third party X11 server.   Just works.
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] Unrecognized Thinkers

[Gary Schiltz]

I vote to induct Nick into the Friam Hall of Fame (INFame?)

On Mon, Nov 1, 2021 at 11:56 AM  wrote:

> Ahem.  Speaking as the “Dean” (oldest surviving member) of this
> distinguished mostly geriatric community, I think respect goes both ways,
> or it goes nowhere.  So, those of us who seek to command respect must be
> prepared to give it, particularly to such memes as OK Boomer, which I think
> expresses quite aptly an impatience with anybody who asserts old knowledge
> just because it is old.  I, of course, am Pre-boomer, a Silent.  If a meme
> were started, “Be silent, Silent!” I would resist it (obviously) but I sure
> as hell would respect it, and try to mine it for its implicit content.
>
>
>
> I quite like my status as Dean, by the way.  When FRIAM is given a
> collective Nobel, I expect to lead you all into the celebratory dinner,
> bearing our staff in my crooked hand, shuffling along in my bedroom
> slippers, my shirt untucked from my honorific belt,  muttering over and
> over again, “Metaphor all the way down, you fuckers!”
>
>
>
> By the way, Jon, it’s funny to see you take so stridently a “youthist”
> position, you, who have perhaps more than any other, sought to support and
> harvest value from the fading *eminences grises* amongst us.  Still.
> Point taken.
>
>
>
> Oh, and, Glen: thanks for collecting the products of the firehose into
> puddles.  Otherwise I would surely have drowned.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Jon Zingale
> *Sent:* Sunday, October 31, 2021 2:23 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Unrecognized Thinkers
>
>
>
> "Memes can spread as if they are amplified, for instance the stupid
> 'Let's Go, Brandon' meme or the dull 'OK Boomer' reply."
>
>
>
> Well, it certainly is your thread to bend. My feeling is that corrosion
> and destruction can often arise as part of a creative process. Age
> demographics in politics in the United States, to my view, are pretty off
> balance. My personal plan is to help cultivate a different one. Nothing
> against old people, of course, but in the next elections I plan to rank
> choice not by party but simply by age.
>
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] we are lost

[Gary Schiltz]

I have to agree with you, Nick. If we as a species are to survive, we've
got to stop this reversion back to our pre-civilized roots. I'm not really
a bleeding-heart liberal, but I do want to evolve beyond survival of the
fittest.

On Thu, Oct 28, 2021 at 1:30 PM  wrote:

> Ok, So, Marcus,
>
>
>
> >   What do categories want?
>
>
>
> Love, recognition and safety?   Someone phone HR and get the ball rolling
> on a new policy!
>
>
>
> Spoken from the high perch of Irony.  Irony is like wormwood, delightful
> in small doses but ultimately toxic.  Do we not all want love, recognition,
> and safety?  Do we also want excitement and challenge.  Go figure!   Some
> of us crave more of the one; some more of the other.  Given the
> contradiction between those things, can we expect the right balance be
> guaranteed for each and every one of us, for all time?  No.  Of course
> not.   But is that reason to mock human striving toward these goals?  Or to
> mock Utilitarian attempts to facilitate their achievement?  No.  I don’t
> think so.  Irony is a guilty pleasure.  Even though I use it and enjoy it,
> I have to admit that it is a an abdication and fails as a policy.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Marcus Daniels
> Sent: Thursday, October 28, 2021 8:18 AM
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] we are lost
>
>
>
>
>
> > So, not only do we attribute teleology to inanimate objects, weather,
> animals, and people, but also to the platonic solids.  Which probably leads
> to:
>
> >
>
> >   What do categories want?
>
>
>
> Love, recognition and safety?   Someone phone HR and get the ball rolling
> on a new policy!
>
>
>
> Marcus
>
>
>
> .-- .- -. - / .- -.-. - .. --- -. ..--.. / -.-. --- -. .--- ..- --. .- - .
>
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>
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>
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>
> archives:
>
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>
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>
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>

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Re: [FRIAM] What can or can't (shouldn't) be said on FriAM...

[Gary Schiltz]

Is that quote by Cormac McCarthy? One of his novels?

On Wed, Oct 27, 2021 at 9:55 PM Jon Zingale  wrote:

> """
> So, Jon, and all of you other ex-perts, Is it the case, or not?  I can see
> that it might be the case for those of you who, unlike me, MIGHT become
> massively important to others later on.  But is it, or is it not, the case
> for we ordinary mortals.
> """
>
> What I am making, perhaps too many, efforts to express is that gentlemen's
> agreements are agreements about what isn't simply given. They are pacts to
> act as if something were simply given, all the while acknowledging that if
> these touchstones were given, there would be no need to mention it.
>
> All men are mortal, but as McCarthy put it:
>
> *So. Here are the dead fathers. Their spirit is entombed in the stone.*
> *It lies upon the land with the same weight and the same ubiquity. For*
> *whoever makes a shelter of reeds and hides has joined his spirit to the*
> *common destiny of creatures and he will subside back into the primal*
> *mud with scarcely a cry. But who builds in stone seeks to alter the*
> *structure of the universe...*
>
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Re: [FRIAM] In Case Those Links Didn't Work

[Gary Schiltz]

A skill that many never seem to outgrow.

On Sun, Oct 24, 2021 at 1:26 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Yeah, among other things they can all put their feet in their mouths.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Oct 24, 2021, 9:49 AM  wrote:
>
>> Frank,
>>
>>
>>
>> In this photo I noticed something I had never noticed before about
>> sleeping babies.  Notice how even in sleep some learning is apparently
>> going on.  Notice all the ways in which the limbs bridge and touch each
>> other providing information about the relation between them.
>>
>>
>>
>> Fascinating.
>>
>>
>>
>> n
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Frank Wimberly
>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 23, 2021 10:32 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* [FRIAM] In Case Those Links Didn't Work
>>
>>
>>
>> https://photos.app.goo.gl/mCvrEgRj3KYnAxpv7
>>
>> ---
>> Frank C. Wimberly
>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>> 
>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>> 
>>
>> 505 670-9918
>> Santa Fe, NM
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Breakfast in Santa Fe

[Gary Schiltz]

Jochen - I'm sorry that you feel as unsafe as you say about guns in the
USA. My own feeling, based on living in the States from birth until age 49
(13 years ago), is that the danger and direct impact on society from
firearms is much exaggerated by the news media. Like so many issues of our
time, our two-party winner-take-all system of elections has made guns a
political football. The same goes for the perception of how police officers
respond to citizens, including motorists, that they deal with. My own
experience has been that police in the USA are courteous and respectful. Of
course, I'm. a white guy who grew up with a respect for the police, so
others' experiences may differ. The USA certainly has its share of
problems, but it's still a pretty darned nice place to live and visit.

On Fri, Oct 22, 2021 at 12:38 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> No, we were wondering about a vacation in the US next year, but I do not
> feel safe because of this gun problem. If we rent a car, a police man stops
> us and I do a wrong movement he will probably shoot me, right? This would
> never happen in Europe.
>
> At the moment we are considering going to Canada in the summer, either
> Vancouver or Toronto, not sure yet.
>
> -J.
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Frank Wimberly 
> Date: 10/22/21 15:52 (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Breakfast in Santa Fe
>
> Too many loaded guns in NM.
>
> Are you coming here Jochen?  We used to meet at St John's College
> coffee shop.  There are many excellent places to have breakfast here.  I
> recommend Saveur.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Fri, Oct 22, 2021, 2:06 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
>> Today in the morning Santa Fe was in the news on TV. They reported that
>> Actor Alec Baldwin has accidentally shot a camera woman, because the gun
>> used for acting was fully loaded. It is rare that Santa Fe is mentioned
>> here in the news
>>
>> https://apnews.com/article/entertainment-arts-and-entertainment-new-mexico-movies-santa-fe-915b39db68b559f03103171fdaecca79
>>
>> Where do you go for breakfast for normal FRIAM meetings (not virtual
>> ones)? What are the best coffeeshops and cafes in Santa Fe?
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Heart Rate

[Gary Schiltz]

I don't know Jon, except from a single VFriam during the peak of the
pandemic last year. I really hope that he meant that as some sort of a
joke, though even that would be in very, very bad taste. If he was serious,
then I would say "shame on you". At the ripe young age of 63 years, I've
begun to realize how damned precious each year is that I have left. And the
prospect of losing friends and loved ones who are older than I am scares
the shit out of me, maybe even more than my own mortality. I've come to
believe that the older a person is, the more valuable they are. Despite the
technology that we have to preserve audio and visual information, the most
direct link between the past and present are stored in the wetware between
the ears of the older generations.

On Sat, Oct 16, 2021 at 12:12 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Also on Friday you said that you are happy when people my age die.  So it
> doesn't matter to you that 95% of people who die are unvaccinated.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, Oct 16, 2021, 10:35 AM Jon Zingale  wrote:
>
>> """
>> You may be interested to know... that having identified a high risk
>> population... we were ethically bound to intervene in their young lives.
>> The result was that we established a Head Start preschool.
>> """
>>
>> It mostly raises questions for me about whom I would want to establish
>> a Head Start program[†]. The video I posted discusses how making a
>> "choice of basis" can lead, via category errors, to horrific outcomes.
>> I often assume that something like this is what Nick is after in his
>> endless ramblings about classification, "fair" gerrymandering and the
>> rest. My opinion continues to be that there, more often than not, fails
>> to exist satisfactorily *unique* or *stable* solutions. It is in these
>> cases that one probably shouldn't strictly "act on the science".
>>
>> Relatedly, on Friday, I made some effort to argue for those not in favor
>> of mandatory vaccination, an argument that is very difficult for me to
>> raise when I perceive the majority of the room as being ready to strike.
>> As a result, I feel that I did a very poor job of steelmanning the
>> position. I may even have disappointed a few of our colleagues.
>>
>> That said, I feel that bringing balance to the discussion is important
>> because I live in an ever more polarizing world, one where choices made
>> over the last century have significantly canalized power structures and
>> pointed the headlights of the world in the direction of mass extinction.
>> To argue in against mandatory vaccination among our group (to my limited
>> reckoning) requires a deeper discussion of what we mean by rationality,
>> what such a framework gives for free and what it doesn't. I would argue
>> that like the gerrymandering problem, we are left to make arbitrary
>> choices of bases and that implies that others that we hurry to classify
>> as crazy (or anti-rational) may in fact prefer a different outcome. I
>> suppose I desired acknowledgement, among my fellow rationalists, that
>> what we perceive as *the* rational solution can often inhibit the search
>> for clearer understanding of our situation.
>>
>> As I once read on a bathroom wall in Texas, "The road to hell is paved
>> in good intentions".
>>
>> Perhaps, this could be rephrased more awkwardly as, "The road to hell
>> is paved in an ever more canalizing gradient descent".
>>
>> [†]
>> https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/751-unmarked-graves-discovered-near-former-indigenous-school-canada-180978064/
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] A pretty cellular automata video

[Gary Schiltz]

I frankly can't imagine our "species" (Homo faber) surviving our own short
sightedness long enough to make it to posthumanism. I suspect that Homo
sapiens will survive the environmental apocalypse to come, but that the
majority of our highly interdependent society will quickly fall apart. IMHO.

On Thu, Sep 30, 2021 at 11:46 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

> We do have a robotic vacuum who we have personified somewhat...   the Cat
> ignores it, the Dog was constantly needing to nip at it, but backed off
> anytime it changed course when it was near her.   It is far from Rosie
> (Jetsons).  But I suppose I might upgrade to Astro.
>
> A friend made the observation not that long ago, that the legacy of Homo
> Faber has been to constantly create technology to replace ourselves.
> First it was a more robust/warmer skin cover, better cutting/rending items
> than our teeth and claws, augmentation of heavy labor, transportation,
> etc...  now we have machines we hope will think for us and make better
> decisions.   And by machines, I don't mean *just* mechanical devices, but
> also systems including human-facilitated bureaucracy/governing, etc.
>
> It seems like in the limit it makes posthumanism (human extinction) the
> ultimate outcome?
>
>
> "Bandwidth" sounds as if there are robots among us who are listening.
> Amazon offers now an "Astro" robot - a tablet attached to a vacuum cleaner
> body. What do you think of it, would you buy one? ZDNet says it costs about
> $1500
> https://www.amazon.com/dp/B078NSDFSB
>
> -J.
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Jon Zingale  
> Date: 9/30/21 01:04 (GMT+01:00)
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] A pretty cellular automata video
>
> "...but I won't waste anyone's bandwidth with my reflective rambling..."
>
>  Wait, no, please, more reflective rambling.
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Masks

[Gary Schiltz]

Piggybacking on Gillian's question, are N95 masks commonly available in the
USA? I've never seen one in Ecuador, but the KN-95 (Chinese version) have
come down in price from initially around $2 each to around $0.25 each.

On Tue, Sep 28, 2021 at 3:00 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> What masks does everyone use? I have a couple more uses from a blue kind I
> probably got from pharmaca.  I do have some of the thick cloth ones. The
> blue disposable kind are comfortable but wear out.
> So now thinking to get something re-usable.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Can a robot have a soul?

[Gary Schiltz]

Great Searle videos. I knew his name, but had never listened to him.

On Sat, Sep 18, 2021 at 3:57 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> We are just stuff and stuff can be simulated.. on quantum computers if
> necessary.
>
> > On Sep 18, 2021, at 1:45 PM, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
> >
> > 
> > I have watched John Searle videos on YouTube today and stumbled upon the
> question of personality again. If we assume that there is a special
> substance that makes us a person, can an advanced robot or AI acquire it?
> Can a robot be lazy, diligent, dull, intelligent, friendly, nit-picky or
> even creative? John Searle would probably say it is not a good question...
> > https://youtu.be/Bq2bfSzkTfU
> >
> > I would say the answer is yes, because if the special substance is
> simply the personality or persistent character of a person, there is no
> reason why a robot should not be able to learn a bundle of typical behavior
> patterns (i.e. special mappings between perceptions and actions) that are
> characteristic for a person, even if this behavior is implemented totally
> differently. The resulting personality helps to define and maintain the
> identity of a person
> > https://youtu.be/WwipmspceOU
> >
> > What do you think? Is there a special substance that makes us a person,
> and can an advanced robot or AI acquire it?
> >
> > -J.
> >
> >
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Re: [FRIAM] the end of the pandemic

[Gary Schiltz]

What email client and platform are you using?

On Mon, Sep 13, 2021 at 8:37 AM Barry MacKichan <
barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:

> My email client keeps track of conversations, so if message A today is a
> reply to message B from a year ago, the top of my inbox shows message B
> with a disclosure triangle. Clicking it will show message B — the next part
> of the conversation. In Friam, almost every message gets responses, so
> there a frequently many old messages at the top level of my inbox.
>
> Hmm… This behavior is an option. I’ll go switch it off now…
>
> —Barry
>
> On 12 Sep 2021, at 23:57, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> I didn't notice the date.  I thought it was newly posted.  Why would it
> have appeared in my email?  Maybe I did a search and saw Marcus's message
> by coincidence.  At least my comment was brief.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sun, Sep 12, 2021, 9:50 PM Gary Schiltz 
> wrote:
>
>> Maybe I missed something, but what prompted you to dig up a 16 month old
>> comment from Marcus to respond to?
>>
>> On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 3:29 PM Frank Wimberly 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Pollyanna!  (ironic)
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 16, 2020, 10:32 AM Marcus Daniels 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Here’s what I expect will probably happen.   The PANDEMIC will be
>>>> declared over, like Mission Accomplished with W.   There will be a slower
>>>> burn until fall, and then it will accelerate again.   But people will be
>>>> acclimate to the death rate, like they acclimate to gun violence.
>>>> Unemployment and homelessness will soar and be persistent.   Suicides will
>>>> go up, and be normalized.   Meanwhile, people with the means will
>>>> self-isolate and be the first to get access to antiviral treatments.  Out
>>>> in the blood and muck, herd immunity will begin to emerge in at risk
>>>> populations.   The U.S. will continue to have high prevalence compared to
>>>> other countries. History will look back on this as a Chernobyl moment,
>>>> where the prestige of the United States fell to Asia.   And a second term
>>>> of Trump will ensure it.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> *From: *Friam  on behalf of Prof David West
>>>> 
>>>> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>>>> friam@redfish.com>
>>>> *Date: *Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 8:25 AM
>>>> *To: *"friam@redfish.com" 
>>>> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] the end of the pandemic
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Steve,
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Yes the subject line is click-bait. In the body of the message I made a
>>>> distinction between the disease pandemic and the perceived PANDEMIC. The
>>>> latter will go away whether or not the disease does.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> The metrics for the latter would include increased traffic to websites
>>>> like the Mathematica Individual COVID Risk calculator and less to WHO, CDC,
>>>> and other overall statistical sites; a noticeable shift from personal
>>>> interest stories about succuming to COVID to ones about succumbing to
>>>> economic hardship; gaming floors in Las Vegas casinos opening with lots of
>>>> assurance that gamblers are at no greater risk than when visiting a grocery
>>>> store; stories about death rates moving from the front page to the second
>>>> page or section; significant increase in lawsuits against restrictions with
>>>> quick, probably out of court, capitulation by governor's; and the central
>>>> theme of stories about the pandemic, what the science tells, us,
>>>> whistleblowers, etc will be almost purely political in nature.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Going beyond mi

Re: [FRIAM] the end of the pandemic

[Gary Schiltz]

Maybe I missed something, but what prompted you to dig up a 16 month old
comment from Marcus to respond to?

On Sun, Sep 12, 2021 at 3:29 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Pollyanna!  (ironic)
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, May 16, 2020, 10:32 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> Here’s what I expect will probably happen.   The PANDEMIC will be
>> declared over, like Mission Accomplished with W.   There will be a slower
>> burn until fall, and then it will accelerate again.   But people will be
>> acclimate to the death rate, like they acclimate to gun violence.
>> Unemployment and homelessness will soar and be persistent.   Suicides will
>> go up, and be normalized.   Meanwhile, people with the means will
>> self-isolate and be the first to get access to antiviral treatments.  Out
>> in the blood and muck, herd immunity will begin to emerge in at risk
>> populations.   The U.S. will continue to have high prevalence compared to
>> other countries. History will look back on this as a Chernobyl moment,
>> where the prestige of the United States fell to Asia.   And a second term
>> of Trump will ensure it.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Friam  on behalf of Prof David West <
>> profw...@fastmail.fm>
>> *Reply-To: *The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Date: *Saturday, May 16, 2020 at 8:25 AM
>> *To: *"friam@redfish.com" 
>> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] the end of the pandemic
>>
>>
>>
>> Steve,
>>
>>
>>
>> Yes the subject line is click-bait. In the body of the message I made a
>> distinction between the disease pandemic and the perceived PANDEMIC. The
>> latter will go away whether or not the disease does.
>>
>>
>>
>> The metrics for the latter would include increased traffic to websites
>> like the Mathematica Individual COVID Risk calculator and less to WHO, CDC,
>> and other overall statistical sites; a noticeable shift from personal
>> interest stories about succuming to COVID to ones about succumbing to
>> economic hardship; gaming floors in Las Vegas casinos opening with lots of
>> assurance that gamblers are at no greater risk than when visiting a grocery
>> store; stories about death rates moving from the front page to the second
>> page or section; significant increase in lawsuits against restrictions with
>> quick, probably out of court, capitulation by governor's; and the central
>> theme of stories about the pandemic, what the science tells, us,
>> whistleblowers, etc will be almost purely political in nature.
>>
>>
>>
>> Going beyond mid-June, I would predict that you will see "wave crests" in
>> terms of cases and deaths, but not "spikes." They will be big enough for
>> the "experts" to claim they are right, but not big enough to trigger any
>> socio-economic response and most people will regard any reporting of same
>> with cynicism. Any attempt to reimpose lock-downs would likely result in
>> furious resistance and widespread civil disobedience.
>>
>>
>>
>> davew
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 12, 2020, at 7:13 PM, Steven A Smith wrote:
>>
>> Dave -
>>
>> The COVID-19 pandemic will end, at least in the US, by mid-June, 2020.
>>
>> Ignoring the "bait" that I (and others) took earlier, I'll try to respond
>> to the singular prediction above:
>>
>>
>>
>> What means "end"?   What is a specific statistic that you believe to
>> indicate that the pandemic has ended?
>>
>> From Wikipedia:
>>
>> A *pandemic* (from Greek 
>>  πᾶν, *pan*, "all" and δῆμος, *demos*, "people") is an epidemic
>>  of disease
>>  that has spread across a large
>> region, for instance multiple continents
>>  or worldwide, affecting a
>> substantial number of people. A widespread endemic
>>  disease with a
>> stable number of infected people is not a pandemic. Widespread endemic
>> diseases with a stable number of infected people such as recurrences of 
>> seasonal
>> influenza  are
>> generally excluded as they occur simultaneously in large regions of the
>> globe rather than being spread worldwide.
>>
>> The WHO published THIS description of phases of a pandemic:
>>
>> https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK143061/
>>
>> [image: Image removed by sender.]
>>
>> *In the **post-pandemic** period, influenza disease activity will have
>> returned to levels normally seen for seasonal influenza. It is expected
>> that the pandemic virus will behave as a seasonal influenza A virus. At
>> this stage, it is important to maintain surveillance and update pandemic
>> preparedness and 

Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning

[Gary Schiltz]

That idea (not Dave, but the idea that someone who might be in fact a bot)
reminds me of one or more trolls that used to, and maybe still do, hang out
on comp.lang.lisp under a variety of pseudonyms.

On Wed, Sep 1, 2021 at 10:26 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> I’m already convinced Dave is bot.  I know I am.
>
>
>
>
> https://www.theatlantic.com/technology/archive/2021/08/dead-internet-theory-wrong-but-feels-true/619937/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Marcus Daniels
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:23 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning
>
>
>
> Culture is online now, didn’t you hear?
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
> *Sent:* Wednesday, September 1, 2021 8:12 AM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] aversive learning
>
>
>
> Glen quoted BC Smith:
>
>
>
> *"What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems
> generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic
> systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually,
> incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that
> engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers
> ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral
> sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional commitment
> to the world."*
>
>
>
>  I read from (or into) this statement a position I have held via AI since
> I did my masters thesis in CS (AI) — computers cannot be intelligent in any
> general sense until and unless they participate in human culture. We
> automatically and non-consciously "enculturate" (normative practices that
> engage the world and involve thick engagement) our children.
>
>
>
> This is NOT education. Education is nothing more than a pale shadow of
> enculturation. Not more than 10% of the 'knowledge' in your head (knowledge
> about what to do and why and when and variations according to circumstance
> and context ) was learned via any kind of formal education or training
> and yet it is absolutely essential and is the foundation for comprehending
> and utilizing the 10% you did learn formally.
>
>
>
> Until we can enculturate our computers, we will never achieve general AI
> (or even any complete specialized AI.
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Sep 1, 2021, at 8:28 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$ wrote:
>
> >
>
> > UK judge orders rightwing extremist to read classic literature or face
>
> > prison
>
> >
> https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2021/sep/01/judge-orders-rightwing-extremist-to-read-classic-literature-or-face-prison
>
> >
>
> > I know several liberals who agree with the righties that vaccine and
>
> > mask mandates are bad, though not for the same reasons. Righties yap
>
> > about fascism and limits to their "freedom". But the liberals talk
>
> > about how mandates just push the righties further into their foxholes,
>
> > preventing collegial conversation.
>
> >
>
> > So the story above is an interesting situation in similar style.
>
> > Renee', to this day, hates Shakespeare because she was forced to
>
> > memorize Romeo and Juliet as a kid. Of course, she doesn't hate
>
> > Shakespeare, because she hasn't read much Shakespeare. She just
>
> > *thinks* she hates it because of this "mandate" she suffered under.
>
> > This court mandated "literature therapy" being imposed on this kid
>
> > could work, if he can read it sympathetically. But if he can't, if he
>
> > simply reads it "syntactically", what will he learn?
>
> >
>
> > BC Smith, in his book "The Promise of AI", channels Steels & Brooks [ψ]
>
> > in writing:
>
> >
>
> > "What does all this mean in the case of AIs and computer systems
>
> > generally? Perhaps at least this: that it is hard to see how synthetic
>
> > systems could be trained in the ways of judgment except by gradually,
>
> > incrementally, and systematically enmeshed in normative practices that
>
> > engage with the world and that involve thick engagement with teachers
>
> > ('elders'), who can steadily develop and inculcate not just 'moral
>
> > sensibility' but also intellectual appreciation of intentional
>
> > commitment to the world."
>
> >
>
> > If we think of this kid, Ben John, as an AI, what will he learn by
>
> > mandating he read Dickens? Similarly, what are the mandate protesters
>
> > learning from our mandates? Stupidity should be painful. And the
>
> > court's reaction to this kid's stupidity, the pain of reading Pride and
>
> > Prejudice, should teach that kid something. But which is the more
>
> > dangerous stupidity? Which stupidity runs the risk of a more
>
> > catastrophic outcome? Avoiding the vaccine? Or mandating vaccination?
>
> >
>
> >
>
> > [ψ] https://doi.org/10.4324/9781351001885
>
> >
>
> > --
>
> > ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
> >
>
> > -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
>
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>
> > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[Gary Schiltz]

Culling is easy, and they are delicious! Kung Pao Meow!

On Thu, Aug 26, 2021 at 10:23 AM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> I have seen what happens when ferals proliferate.   Out in the country it
> is common to have a few non-domesticated cats around, but they can
> proliferate amongst households.  Look out the window, there is some hunt
> that is on.   Culling is easy though.
>
> > On Aug 26, 2021, at 7:08 AM, uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:
> >
> > So, a wildlife ecologist friend of mine (who meatspace introduced me to
> Looney (WSDA employee who discovered murder hornets here (who also hangs at
> the local pub) [‡])) argues that domestic cats, as an invasive species, are
> more horrifying than murder hornets, or english ivy, or the new zealand
> mudsnail, etc. He focuses on how they're merely killing machines, with
> which I agree. And goes with the usual "keep them inside" rhetoric.
> >
> > But I think I landed on an argument that he couldn't respond to. The
> typical evolutionary argument against domestic cats is that we neuter/spay
> the ones with the qualities we like, leaving the ferals to reproduce and
> evolve. And there's plenty of evidence that a clowder of ferals wreaks more
> havoc on a local ecosystem than a disorganized collection of house cats
> ever does. (Distributions of house cats territory drop off at more than
> ~100 m from their home. So unless the cat lives on the border of a wild
> area, it's impact on wild life is quite small. In contrast, feral clowders
> end up in wilder areas.)
> >
> > To boot, I have an anecdote. When we moved into this house, which is
> buttressed by a fairly wild ravine with owls and wild rabbits and such,
> there was a feral clowder living in a dilapidated house at the crook of the
> ravine (which leads down toward capitol lake). Our alpha, Scooter, kept
> fighting with at least one of these ferals. He lost quite badly one time,
> but due to our policy of universal healthcare, Scooter lives to fight
> again. Now the feral clowder is gone, thereby saving the lives of who knows
> how many little critters in the ravine. Scooter sporadically brings home a
> mouse, mole, or "little brown bird". But it's pretty rare now that he's
> pushing 12 or 13. So, we could say he's an ecologically ethical hunter,
> even if it's unintentional.
> >
> > In the end, though, my wildlife eco friend just loves dogs and hates
> cats. 8^D My guess is his cognitive structure is more dog-like and mine is
> more cat-like, after decades of being programmed by our pets.
> >
> >
> > [‡]
> https://www.sciencenews.org/article/asian-giant-murder-hornets-new-map-habitat-united-states
> >
> >> On 8/24/21 4:39 PM, Steve Smith wrote:
> >> My first reaction to the subject line is one of my favorite parody
> >> attributions to redneck culture:  "it's Diffr'nt, kill it!" but then I
> >> read the content and realized it was more apropos than I expected.
> >>
> >> I believe that something like "xenophobia" is an adaptive response in
> >> many contexts...  we have some pretty deep instincts it seems that let
> >> us know to be "askeered" of "spiders and snakes" even if we'd never seen
> >> another ape respond that way.  My dog has always been very (properly)
> >> fearful of snakes...  otherwise her natural curious aggression would
> >> have had her dead-by-snakebite long ago...   she went crazy everytime
> >> she saw a rattlesnake but always barked crazily from a good 6-10 feet
> >> away.   She never alerted to a non-rattler that I knew of.And in the
> >> arms race of survival, it is natural that some "skeery" things will
> >> camoflauge as benign or friendly or cute.
> >>
> >> I am always a little nervous when large movements (especially gubbm'nt
> >> supported ) try to tap those instincts.  It seems like a bad precedent
> >> to encourage formalized xenophobia even against helpless insects.   The
> >> Charlottesville (and too many other) white-nationalists chanting "jews
> >> will not replace us" and all of Trump's fear-mongering are obvious (and
> >> ugly), but aspects of the B(lack) L(ives) M(atter) movement that perhaps
> >> overstated police culpability (in general not in specific cases), and
> >> Hillary's unfortunate election-forfieting statement calling Trump
> >> supporters "deplorables" (plenty of them were, but the brush was too
> >> broad and there was probably at least some backlash turnout over that
> >> one).  Her "superpredator" comments, etc. in the 90's are another
> >> example.
> >>
> >> As for me, I have a nicely expanding set of stands of what is know
> >> locally as "Guaco" (critical to the black on black pottery process) in
> >> the pueblo nearby but more commonly known as "beeweed" among anglos...
> >> it turns out to be a particularly attractive nectar source for the
> >> Tarantula Hawk (or Tarantula Wasp), a big ole blue-black  beast that
> >> looks like it could stun you with a sting and drag you to it's
> >> underground lair where it would insert it's fertilized eggs into your
> >> 

Re: [FRIAM] Kill it!

[Gary Schiltz]

By the subject, I thought this would be about the Taliban.

On Tue, Aug 24, 2021 at 9:45 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

>
> ‘Kill it!’ US officials advise no mercy for lanternfly summer invasion
>
> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2021/aug/24/pennsylvania-lanternfly-summer-invasion
>
> Am I so wrong to root for the bad guy? ... such a good lookin' bug.
>
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Medical treatments for some or for all

[Gary Schiltz]

Is it right? Is it right that I can eat steak and some can’t afford enough
rice and beans? The world is grossly unfair  I’m sure I’m not the only one
who struggles with the unfairness of the world. The question is what to do
about it. How much social disruption would occur from a governor dying in
office? Or a president?

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 11:32 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> The governor of Texas, Greg Abbott, has tested positive for the virus,
> although he is fully vaccinated. He has no symptoms but receives the same
> $100,000 Regeneron treatment as Donald Trump, maybe because he sits in a
> wheelchair and belongs to a risk group. Is it right that famous politicians
> are getting the most expensive treatments while ordinary people have to
> worry if they can pay a treatment at all, for instance because they have
> lost their health insurance?
>
> https://www.npr.org/sections/coronavirus-live-updates/2021/08/17/1028574761/texas-governor-greg-abbott-tests-positive-covid-19-coronavirus
>
> -J.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] vax v unvax

[Gary Schiltz]

Glen, that has to be the comment of the day winner. Well said!

On Thu, Aug 19, 2021 at 9:07 AM uǝlƃ ☤>$  wrote:

> I appreciate that. But while I'm taking her and her ideas seriously,
> discussing them calmly while holding a cup of coffee, people who hold those
> very same ideas are carrying AR-15 rifles and Don't Tread on Me flags while
> marching around downtown in desert fatigues, claiming they'll break into
> the legislature later that day.
>
> And I am the bully? ... The world has gone mad.
>
>
> On 8/18/21 4:45 PM, Jon Zingale wrote:
> > Since you are asking for an opinion, I believe that abstaining from her
> service because you feel that your household is at risk directly or at risk
> of becoming a vector for the disease is reasonable. OTOH, actions intended
> to coerce/coax her economically comes too near to bullying for my tastes.
>
>
> --
> ☤>$ uǝlƃ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] "ZAMM"

[Gary Schiltz]

It’s one I’ve always intended to read, but somehow never got around to it.
I’d be interested, but need to read it soon.

On Wed, Aug 18, 2021 at 8:46 PM  wrote:

> Colleagues,
>
>
>
> I wonder if Pirsig’s *Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance *was a
> thing for any of you, and if you would be interested in pursuing a thread
> about it and, if so, if you would be willing to get it down off your shelf
> and flip through it, looking for the parts you loved and the parts you
> hated.
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure

[Gary Schiltz]

I don’t know who Larry Elder is, but I believe he is incorrect. The right
wing of today in the USA believes, or at least says, that liberals are both
misguided and really, really bad people. God told them so.

On Mon, Aug 9, 2021 at 1:40 AM Pieter Steenekamp 
wrote:

> Steve,
>
> Your "The Wrong (formerly Right) Wing in the US"
> reminds me of the quote by Larry Elder:
> "Conservatives consider liberals well-intentioned, but misguided. Liberals
> consider conservatives not only wrong, but really, really bad people."
>
>
> P
>
> On Mon, 9 Aug 2021 at 06:06, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
>> Jochen -
>>
>> Thanks for the original article reference.   It lead me to seek out and
>> find another interesting /relevant introductory/survey article:
>>
>> Stability of Democracies:  A Complex Systems Perspective
>> 
>>
>> In regards to your original question, my own biased intuition is that it
>> is a vicious (rather than virtuous) cycle.   Our various corrupt leaders
>> with notable presidents such as Harding (Teapot Dome), Nixon (Watergate++)
>> and DJT-45 (Tax, Emoluments, Election, Sexual Misconduct, etc... many left
>> to be exposed I suspect) definitely undermine the confidence in and
>> commitment to our imperfect Democracy, driving it further away from any
>> ideal it might aspire to.
>>
>> I personally wasted half of my voting life in reaction to Nixon and the
>> next several cycles following.   Watching the shenanigans of 2000 and then
>> 2016 and worse 2020, I expect there will be entire new generations as
>> disaffected as I was.  It is hard to maintain a legitimate participatory
>> Democracy with that level of disaffection and confusion.
>>
>> The Wrong (formerly Right) Wing in the US seems nearly dead-set on
>> leveraging this to the extreme.   In hindsight, the rhetoric of the Wrong
>> Wing has been playing at this for my entire adult life, but it is acutely
>> worse this past 1-5 years.   From Trump's embrace of nearly every right
>> wing dictator he could find to Tucker Carlson in Hungary this week, it
>> seems to be happening entirely in plain sight!
>>
>> - Steve
>>
>>
>> On 8/8/21 2:09 PM, Jochen Fromm wrote:
>>
>> Good example. Like the USA South Africa was a former British colony. And
>> both countries had to struggle with racism in the past. But the development
>> of democracy was different. The rise and fall of democracy is an
>> interesting topic
>>
>> https://press.princeton.edu/books/hardcover/9780691177465/the-decline-and-rise-of-democracy
>>
>> I wonder what the essential factor is: do immoral presidents cause the
>> collapse of democracy in a country by undermining democratic institutions
>> or is it the other way round: the economy (and therefore the country) is
>> already broken and institutions are weak, which enables immoral
>> authoritarian rulers to grab power? Or a combination of both?
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>>  Original message 
>> From: Pieter Steenekamp 
>> 
>> Date: 8/8/21 20:26 (GMT+01:00)
>> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
>>  
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Moral collapse and state failure
>>
>> Well, I'm from South Africa, and we have been close to moral collapse and
>> IMO that could have led to our state failing.
>>
>> If you ask ten South Africans you'll get maybe twenty opinions, below is
>> just my very brief view of what has been and what is happening in South
>> Africa.
>>
>> South Africa became democratic in 1994 with Nelson Mandela the president.
>> With him at the helm we had the moral high ground. His immediate successor
>> Thabo Mbeki also did well. But between 2009 and 2017 Jacob Zuma was our
>> president. He looted very seriously from the state and unfortunately under
>> him many people in all state organisations started to also loot. The
>> corruption became very deep. He is in jail now.
>>
>> We now have Cyril Ramaphosa as president and it's anybody's guess, but at
>> least I'm very confident that Cyril is leading us again towards the moral
>> high ground and away from state failure.
>>
>>
>> On Sun, 8 Aug 2021 at 19:18, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>>
>>> This paper from last year argues that moral collapse and state failure
>>> are linked. Would you agree?
>>> https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpos.2020.568704/full
>>>
>>> -J.
>>>
>>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Holochain technology

[Gary Schiltz]

I remember seeing a Smalltalk implementation that allows running code to be
suspended, sent over the wire to another VM, and continue where it left
off. It may have been Squeak, I’m not sure.

On Wed, Jul 7, 2021 at 5:51 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Yes, mobile code and distributed computing.  It is the way to give people
> freedom!
>
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Re: [FRIAM] The Dream of Florida

[Gary Schiltz]

I don't know what you like to do to relax, so my recommendation may be
completely off base for you. For me, Florida is too crowded to enjoy. I
don't know California well enough to comment intelligently, other than to
say that given its size, it is practically its own country in so many ways.
I personally love New Mexico.  I lived outside of Santa Fe for a decade,
and in many ways wish I had never left. For me, the most difficult thing
about living there was trying to stay employed during the tech bubble
bursting and the onset of the financial crisis of 2008. Now, the severe
drought would be difficult to live with. But all in all, New Mexico is a
magical place.

On Thu, Jul 1, 2021 at 1:15 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> We are planning a vacation in the USA next year, if we are still healthy
> and do not lose our jobs. What do you think is the best sunshine state to
> relax, Florida or California? Or maybe New Mexico? The best time for
> Florida is probably spring or early summer before the hurricanes? Or is
> Florida in a crisis now too?
>
> https://slate.com/business/2021/06/miami-condo-collapse-florida-building-industry-crisis.html
>
> -J.
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Anticipate wildfires using machine learning

[Gary Schiltz]

I couldn't have said it better myself. Fires are very much a part of dry
land ecosystems. The only reason they are "catastrophic" is that they have
been suppressed in the US for the last century or so.

On Mon, Jun 14, 2021 at 12:32 PM cody dooderson  wrote:

> I might be entering into this conversation out of context. I have seen
> a lot of forest fire conversations on FRIAM but have been too lazy to read
> them. Also I am not an ecologist.
> I disagree that wildfires are *always* the last step before
> desertification. Forests go through cycles, often called ecological
> successions, and often successions include fire. A lot of experts agree
> that frequent low intensity wildfires promote biodiversity. The western
> United States has been effectively putting out wildfires for about the last
> century, which led to dense monocultures that are prime for large
> destructive fires. It is believed that before our intervention the forests
> were thinner and burned more often. Historic fires were lower intensity and
> burned in more of a mosaic pattern. That mosaic pattern of burned
> landscapes is a significant contributor to biodiversity. A mature forest
> harbors different kinds of organisms than does a freshly burned one or one
> in an intermediate stage of growth. When there is a mosaic pattern of say
> grassland and mature forest, the forest is usually much more diverse. When
> a forest is more diverse it is healthier, usually.
>
> Cody Smith
>
>
> On Sun, Jun 13, 2021 at 7:30 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
>> Wildfires are the last step before desertification. We need to prevent it
>> confine them. Is it possible to increase the accuracy of wildfire
>> predictions using machine learning?
>>
>> https://towardsdatascience.com/anticipating-wildfires-with-machine-learning-tools-5eb43b450d36
>>
>> -J.
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Wildfires and Climate Change

[Gary Schiltz]

As much as my wife and I loved NM, fires and the accompanying smoky air
were a large factor in our decision to move to the cloud forest. Pure,
clean, oxygenated air all day 365 days of the year.

On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 9:40 AM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> HEPA air filters in every room..
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Jochen Fromm
> *Sent:* Wednesday, June 9, 2021 11:17 PM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> Friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* [FRIAM] Wildfires and Climate Change
>
>
>
> As climate change leads to hotter temperatures and drier weather, we are
> likely to see more serious wildfires in CA, AZ and NN
>
>
> https://www.nationalgeographic.com/science/article/climate-change-increases-risk-fires-western-us
>
>
>
> Arizona is already burning 
>
>
> https://www.abc15.com/news/wildfires/2021-arizona-wildfire-season-already-burning-more-than-6-of-the-last-20-years
>
>
>
> -J.
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

[Gary Schiltz]

Interesting that you should send this (I haven't had a chance to look at it
much yet). Someone just sent a link to something rather similar:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prosperity_Without_Growth.

On Fri, May 14, 2021 at 2:01 AM Pieter Steenekamp <
piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:

> Finance 4.0—Towards a Socio-Ecological Finance System
>
> A Participatory Framework to Promote Sustainability
>
> Download link:
> https://link.springer.com/content/pdf/10.1007%2F978-3-030-71400-0.pdf
>
> On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 22:21, David Eric Smith 
> wrote:
>
>> I heard a nice story at an annual meeting a long time ago: maybe seven or
>> eight years now; maybe a decade.  It was in a side-conversation, told by
>> some high-flying economist who had been in the room where it happened.
>> This was soon after Obama had appointed Tim Geithner to try to repair the
>> mess of the 2007/2008 banking system collapse.  Geithner was in one of the
>> relatively early meetings with the bankers for whom he was trying to devise
>> some regulatory scheme.  The bankers were reassuring him that no scheme was
>> needed, because they would self-regulate.
>>
>> As I heard it told, Geithner answered immediately, with an expression
>> that it is easy for me to visualize:
>>
>> “Right.  So self-regulation is to regulation as self-importance is to
>> importance.”
>>
>> That of course doesn’t purport to be a statement about limits to what
>> could be possible in principle.  Just an assessment in the context in situ
>> at the time, of what would be the outcome of immediate decisions.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>>
>>
>> On May 14, 2021, at 4:11 AM, Pieter Steenekamp <
>> piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:
>>
>> Re
>> *Ultimately, I am probing the group to see what kinds of frameworks
>> eachof us has in mind.*
>>
>> My choice is a self-regulating participatory market society.
>>
>> I quote from Dirk Helbing's Economics 2.0: The Natural Step towards A
>> Self-Regulating, Participatory Market Society
>> https://arxiv.org/abs/1305.4078
>> "I argue that, as the complexity of socio-economic systems increases,
>> networked decisionmaking and bottom-up self-regulation will be more and
>> more important features. It will be
>> explained why, besides the “homo economicus” with strictly self-regarding
>> preferences, natural selection has also created a “homo socialis” with
>> other-regarding preferences. While the “homo
>> economicus” optimizes the own prospects in separation, the decisions of
>> the “homo socialis” are self-determined, but interconnected, a fact that
>> may be characterized by the term “networked minds”. Notably, the “homo
>> socialis” manages to earn higher payoffs than the “homo economicus”."
>>
>> Interesting is the youtube presentation by Dirk Helbing about his new
>> book  Next Civilisation at
>> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8TtSNNaNZTc=26s
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, 13 May 2021 at 19:55, jon zingale  wrote:
>>
>>> Each of the three citations was meant to evoke, distinct though related,
>>> approaches to assigning quantities to qualities of networks. The Levine
>>> paper[1] focuses on a technique for flattening a food web onto a chain
>>> (trophic level). What I find novel is that the technique appears robust
>>> to loops (cannibalism like breastfeeding) as well as larger circuits or
>>> cliques (scavengers of all types and colors). I am also impressed by the
>>> straightforward nature of the calculation familiar to all that work with
>>> absorbing Markov chains[KS]: Reorder the transition matrix so that pure
>>> source components come first, partition the position vector similarly,
>>> find the fundamental matrix and then solve for position. Levine then
>>> goes on to point out that the variance of path lengths gives a nice
>>> measure of trophic specialization.
>>>
>>> I became familiar with the Spring Rank algorithm through conversations
>>> with its authors, and became more intimately familiar through recent work
>>> applying the algorithm to networks of exchange. The central idea, there,
>>> is that we can imagine an exchange network as a mechanical system of
>>> weights (individuals) and springs (whose tensions correspond in some
>>> way to transactions between individuals). There (and maybe this is how
>>> it might correspond to Marcus' criticism) we write the Hamiltonian and
>>> solve for position. In the work, my collaborators and I were (are?)
>>> doing,
>>> we researched how such a model can be used as a suggestion engine for
>>> *giving* exactly because one could suggest non-trivial ways to *balance*
>>> one's exchange network.
>>>
>>> Lastly, the reference to gauge-theoretic economic models is one where we
>>> can apply an abstract notion of curvature or (cohomologically) measure
>>> the distance from *exactness* flows experience on a given circuit. I
>>> would
>>> not be surprised if this relatively new approach is already finding
>>> itself
>>> useful in applied economics. My feeling is that the tools already exist
>>> (to an 

Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

[Gary Schiltz]

A very insightful and humane comment, David.

On Wed, May 12, 2021 at 8:50 AM Prof David West 
wrote:

> I find anthropology to be fascinating because it is complex,
> interpretative, dynamic, highly contextual, and, ultimately anecdotal. "The
> ways of humans" are not reducible to formulae, rules, laws, or algorithms.
> There are 'patterns' and it is possible to establish cultural 'norms' to
> which — always with exceptions — individual behavior conforms.
>
> "Thinking Anthropologically" means constantly juggling hundreds of
> variables, trying to find the "familiar in the strange" and the "strange in
> the familiar" and, at best, discovering that your "understanding" is just a
> "thick description."
>
> In contrast, from my point of view, science cherry picks the easy shit;
> that which is reducible to answers, laws, principles, and algorithms. Make
> no mistake, I love science, but only at the fringes where it remains
> "metaphor and story and philosophy."
>
> It is difficult to introduce anthropological ideas, like the three
> categories of reciprocity, into discussions on this list. Readers come up
> with questions, framed with too much specificity to be easily answered —
> like glen's question of transitivity in balanced reciprocity.
>
> The answers to such questions are almost always: yes   but 
>
> When Jesus (supposedly) said, "if you do it to the least among you you
> have done it to me," that is transitive as I understand glen was asking.
>
> "Balanced" is highly contextualized. For example the group of workers that
> had lunch together every Friday. Restaurants varied in price, everyone
> ordered what they wished, and the check was always evenly split. At the end
> of a year of study, the anthropologist observing the group added up the
> numbers. The total spent by the group and the amounts spent by each
> individual. Individual expenditures were within ten-cents of the amount
> calculated by dividing total expenditure by number of people in the group.
>
> A Bill Mauldin cartoon: two GIs in WWII are talking and one says to the
> other, "I want to thank you for saving my life today, here's my last pair
> of dry socks."
>
> Both cases exhibit balanced reciprocity.
>
> Most examples of general reciprocity are situated in small, tight, groups
> like a family and few point a path to a "scaled application." Bot others,
> like Pieters, "pay it forward" or numerous instances of altruism benefiting
> large, "anonymous," groups contain no obvious constraints on scale.
>
> Anyway - just something I wanted to share.
>
> davew
>
>
> On Wed, May 12, 2021, at 1:46 AM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>
> I just want to share two stories with you regarding reciprocity.
>
> 1 Years ago I had to be in Miami for a couple of months for business and
> my family joined me. My one son was ill and got treatment at the Jackson
> Memorial Hospital. There was one nurse in particular that went not the
> extra mile but million miles to help us with everything that she possibly
> could. When it was time for us to return home we obviously wanted to
> express our gratitude. Her reply was to request us to do to others what she
> has done to us.
>
> 2 The deputy chief justice of South Africa Raymond Zondo had a similar
> experience in his life. His family was very poor and a local businessman
> helped so that he could study law. After completed his studies he wanted to
> repay the businessman, but in Zondo's own words:
> “When I asked him what arrangements we could make so I repay him, he said
> don’t worry. Do to others what I have done to you. I thought that was very
> important and in my own small way I try to do that,” said the judge.
> Taken from https://www.goodthingsguy.com/people/judge-raymond-zondo/
>
> On Tue, 11 May 2021 at 23:56, Steve Smith  wrote:
>
> Lazily composing at least two upshots of this conversation (and the
> smart-contract parallel one):
>
> 1) I think Russ brought up what *I* thought was implicit in Reciprocity
> (though I understand why it is not  since I borrowed my use of the term
> from gift economies, not adhering to the (obvious) mathematical meaning
> that most here would jump to):   My intended connotation of Reciprocity
> included both "spirit of generosity and gratitude", so it is excellent that
> those were called out as possibly essential (or at least efficient?) in
> improving the state of our relations.
>
> 2) Glen opened the question of "transitivity" which I think you (Jon) are
> addressing here with good motivation.   In my smart-contract
> considerations, the point would be that the values one attached to "raw
> value" (money/crypto¢) in their transactions would propogate through.   For
> example, food stamps cannot (directly) be redeemed for non-food items
> (specifically alcohol, tobacco, pet food, sunglasses) and if I paid a 500%
> surcharge on the few gallons of petrol I run through my Extended Range EV
> as a way to decline to participate in A) blood for oil wars and B) 

Re: [FRIAM] Morphogenisis

[Gary Schiltz]

First of all, it's just a metaphor (ducking, the shoe barely missing my
head) :-)

Second of all, that description of animal development sure sounds to me
like "following a script".

On Sat, May 8, 2021 at 2:23 PM  wrote:

> This struck me:
>
>
>
> When animals develop, they don’t follow a script. Instead, responding to
> their environment, the cells negotiate and feel their way toward a final
> form. A fertilized egg divides, and divides again, creating a hollow ball
> of cells called a blastula; genes instruct these cells to release
> chemicals, and other cells, reacting to those chemical concentrations,
> decide to migrate elsewhere or to develop into specific types of tissue.
> Other influences—oxygen, nutrients, hormones, sometimes toxins—further
> shape gestation.
> https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021/05/10/persuading-the-body-to-regenerate-its-limbs?utm_source=nl_brand=tny_mailing=TNY_Daily_050821_campaign=aud-dev_medium=email=5bd678d924c17c104801f684=40835928=1dc6f15a30be2d4712fae5f0e5a9a679=5e4befc88214fadc869224d7cb34d55f51451bc7=0c6ef6b7bc8221288e1f4a4ca0116d78a21ebdbe47949488640c7c54c93120fb=AUTO_PRINT_term=TNY_Daily
>
>
>
> First, note the reliance on psychological terms.  This is the sort of
> passage that would stimulate my teasing Hywel with, “So you see, Hywel,
> psychology really IS the mother of all sciences.”  And don’t any of you
> DARE to come back at me with, “It’s just a metaphor.”
>
>
>
> Second, which of these two models encapsulates more closely what you
> wizards mean by computation.  Is carrying out an algorithm  more like
> “computation” or is “building a limb”? Is a salamander’s limb “computed”?
> If so, who computes it, or is that a violation of the language of
> computation.   I know.  Fools rush in where wise men fear to tread.
>
>
>
> Your loyal fool,
>
>
>
> Nic
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] FW: Covid-Lancet-PART-2 (002).doc

[Gary Schiltz]

Here is one reason to be interested: much of the world is still months,
maybe years, away from getting access to vaccines. My adopted country of
Ecuador as a case in point.

On Thu, May 6, 2021 at 12:52 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> This does not seem interesting to me.  The vaccines have been demonstrated
> to be effective and safe to very large degrees based on many millions of
> inoculations.  Why should I care about some suspect studies with small n.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Thu, May 6, 2021, 11:33 AM  wrote:
>
>> Dear Phellow Phriammers,
>>
>>
>>
>> I have noted that most of what I have written here of late has been
>> ignored, and that’s ok, actually.  Usually, it is the possibility that you
>> MIGHT read what I write that keeps me writing and, behaviorist to the last,
>> writing is what I need to do in order to think.
>>
>>
>>
>> But this situation is different.  I really don’t know what to think about
>> Pavlovic’s 
>> paper.  There may have been some trouble with the cloud version, so I have
>> attached it to this message.
>>
>>
>>
>> So, this is a case where I really need some help.  I realize that you are
>> all engaged in this excellent correspondence about UBI, which has revealed
>> all sorts of “-ists” that I never thought were alive and well in the world,
>> let alone in this group.  I would not interfere with that for a second.
>> But, could a few of you take a look at his paper
>>   (very
>> short, a commentary, actually).  I think he is actually a candidate for
>> this group.  He is an MD, Phd, anaesthesiologist, retired in Paris, who has
>> participated in hundreds of scientific papers,  who is passionate ( I
>> worry, perhaps sometimes a bit too passionate) about dozens of different
>> things and suspicious of everything. He wants, for instance, to dig a
>> gigantic tunnel to bring large ships directly from the danube to the
>> Mediterranean.
>>
>>
>>
>> I, of course, live in a bubble, but I don’t like to have that fact thrust
>> in my face as powerfully as when he reveals to me that the two HAAA=VUD
>> papers denouncing Chloquoroquine were retracted a year ago, and I never
>> found out.  I can’t get any sense of whether there has been any attempt to
>> revive them or to redo the original clinical study that suggested HCQ’s
>> efficacy against CoVid.
>>
>>
>>
>> Any little bit of help you could give me would be great.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick Thompson
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* thompnicks...@gmail.com 
>> *Sent:* Wednesday, May 5, 2021 9:48 PM
>> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Cc:* 'Prof David West' 
>> *Subject:* Covid-Lancet-PART-2 (002).doc
>>
>>
>>
>> Dear Colleagues,
>>
>>
>>
>> I attach a paper
>>  written by
>> an internet acquaintance I made some years back, Dragan Pavlovic.  I am
>> sending it along for two reasons.  First, it reveals (to me, at least) that
>> the two negative studies on Hydroxychloroquine use in SARS-CoVid-19
>> treatment were based on unverified data and were withdrawn by their authors
>> almost immediately.  (Have the rest of you known this for the last year and
>> not told me?  I cannot believe, after we pilloried poor Dave for advocating
>> for it, that he has not gloated about it. ) Second, Pavlovic raises the
>> intension/extension distinction in the context of the interpretation of
>> scientific results and also questions Randomized Control Trials as the
>> "Gold Standard" for discovery. Thus, I think he is a kindred spirit, being
>> a bit of a grumpy contrarian like many of us here.  I have promised to
>> forward any comments you make to him, so be polite but speak truth.
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] The case for universal basic income UBI

[Gary Schiltz]

It's hard to imagine UBI in the United States, when you (we, before I left)
can't even get a universal health care system.

On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 6:47 PM Gillian Densmore 
wrote:

> We have a globe getting pimp slapped by a virus. People getting shit
> canned for no other reason than breathing. WAstate and one other was/is
> back to full lockdown, Canada still is.
> The question isn't reely is UBI a good/bad idea but how fucking fast do we
> make it happen? and for how much. I'd submit that a UBI musti be at 70k a
> year min, and tied to the trust costs of living and inflation. That's 30 an
> hour and the low end of 'upper middle clast' from the 80s. Plus a bit for
> savings and fun.
>
> Probably should be pegged at the true costs of living for the most
> expensive place in the US to live, for a house hold of 3. So that a lot of
> people are covered. Because as is how many people are paycheck to paycheck
> for no other reason than luck? a lot. between lobyests, a fucking toxic why
> should we mediacrity penny ante mentality min wage was and is still
> contorted to the least we can legall get away with. We call that
> wage-slavery. So good chance that someone who gets  a 5k a month check
> would then be able to pay off  debts. Invest in some stocks and themselves.
> IMO that sounds fucking amazing to me.
> San Franciscos costs of living, true costs of living waaay the F back in
> the 90s was 80k a year. it's now about 200k. As reported by any source
> thats reputable, and yet wages their haven't gone up more than 9.75-12 an
> hour. A single room BRM appartment their at 15% bellow average market rate
> can easily average 2k a month.
> As it is now a single person just would not be able to afford that.
> Ergo UBI would keep them housed.
>
> Some massively large percent of the 30+ generation right now can't even
> save,, have to work 2+ jobs. Go make conversation with anyone at Smiths. a
> lot of those people have to work 3 jobs.  Why should UBI be a question? the
> reel question must be not if, but when, and how much.
>
> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 5:27 PM Gillian Densmore 
> wrote:
>
>> The simplest case for a UBI is current and past pandemics.  Simply put
>> that for some asinine reason our sense of maslow's hierarchy of needs has
>> gone tits up fucked.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, May 4, 2021 at 5:23 PM Frank Wimberly 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> A couple of facts that relate to some of the points raised.
>>>
>>> I was following a car that had a bumper sticker that said, "Eat the
>>> Rich".
>>>
>>> A man paid $50 million for a penthouse (5 story) in Manhattan.  He
>>> committed suicide when he couldn't sell it for $35 million.  His wife
>>> wanted to live where she could have horses.  If anyone cares i can tell you
>>> who he was.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> On Tue, May 4, 2021, 3:42 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙  wrote:
>>>
 Yeah, I agree. But as the miscommunication about the dimension of
 simplices vs. orthogonal dimensionality seems to indicate, reduction need
 not imply linearity, and if reduction is used iteratively to discover
 interestingness, that provenance/method/algorithm need not be lost (1st
 order Markovian). A practical example might be
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Projection_pursuit

 Like abstraction <-> concretization, there's de-objectification that's
 part of a complete skill set. Competent objectifiers retain enough history
 to at least approximate the starting point.

 On 5/4/21 1:37 PM, jon zingale wrote:
 > """
 > Reduction is a triumph if it captures what you're looking for.
 > """
 >
 > When reductions capture what one is looking for then the resulting
 > categories
 > make for powerful rhetoric. IMO, it is exactly that reductions to
 crisp
 > objects
 > capture what *some* want, while obfuscating the desired objects of
 others,
 > that
 > makes the whole reduction-objectification game so insidious in
 practice (a
 > kind
 > of conceptual imperialism?). Sometimes objects can be presented with
 such
 > clarity
 > and precision that it becomes difficult to imagine any others, to
 dislodge
 > unproductive beliefs or practices, or to remember that the objects are
 > fantastic
 > shorthands.

 --
 ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ

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Re: [FRIAM] something serious from something silly

[Gary Schiltz]

Cool conversation about octopus. While not scientific, I really enjoyed the
move “My Octopus Teacher”. Insightful and thought provoking.

On Sat, May 1, 2021 at 9:02 AM Prof David West  wrote:

> Octopi probably do "see" the ground behind them. They have more neurons in
> their skin than in their brain and the chroma-cells (forgot the technical
> name) are bi-directional "camera and display." So one side "sees" and
> transmits to opposing side for display. All without entering the central
> nervous brain.
>
> davew
>
>
>
> On Fri, Apr 30, 2021, at 9:12 PM, thompnicks...@gmail.com wrote:
> > Octopus ground mimicry is the thing I cannot understand.   How do you
> copy
> > what you are not looking at?
> >
> > n
> >
> > Nick Thompson
> > thompnicks...@gmail.com
> > https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
> > Sent: Friday, April 30, 2021 8:57 PM
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: [FRIAM] something serious from something silly
> >
> > A discussion of UFOs occupied some time in FRIAM today, including the
> > observation that despite looking for "intelligent signals" ala SETI have
> > failed.
> >
> > Made me think of octopi (& other cephalopods) that communicate with
> > brilliant displays of rapidly changing color. We think that these
> displays
> > are more than reactive, that they are "intelligent communication."
> Mostly,
> > it seems to me, we infer this because we have a lot of context, including
> > interacting octopi, but if all we had was the "signal" absent the
> context,
> > would we recognize it as "intelligent?"
> >
> > I am not phrasing the question very well, but if we had nothing except a
> > 5-minute video of an octopus' surface changing color, would we be able to
> > detect a hidden order or structure that would allow a reasonable
> > determination that it originated from an intelligent species?
> >
> > davew
> >
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> >
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Re: [FRIAM] for the marketeers amongst us

[Gary Schiltz]

I suspect, to use an open source software aphorism, you are speaking of
"free as in beer" and Glen is speaking of "free as in freedom".

On Mon, Apr 26, 2021 at 5:04 PM Pieter Steenekamp <
piet...@randcontrols.co.za> wrote:

> * "But a contract-governed market isn't any more "free" than a regulated
> market"*
>
> Maybe what  we understand by "free" is different? If I evaluate the risk
> rewards and decide I want to get dentures for 1 dollar from the
> "pavement-dentist" and the regulators do not prevent the transaction, I
> consider that a free market transaction. If the regulated market prevents
> that transaction, I'm still without front teeth. How can you claim the
> contract-governed market isn't more "free" than the regulated market? In my
> understanding of "free" the contract-governed market is more free; I end up
> with dentures and the enterprising man makes a profit. In the free market
> case the outcome is win-win and the regulated market case lose-lose.
>
> What do I miss about your point? Maybe if you explain to me how you
> understand "free" we can sing from the same sheet.
>
> On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 at 23:11, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙  wrote:
>
>> OK. But a contract-governed market isn't any more "free" than a regulated
>> market, neither of which are maximally efficient. And in the context where
>> all the negotiating power lies with one side or the other, those contracts
>> may end up even *more* restrictive than government regulations. (E.g. if
>> all the multinational corporations get together and put the same
>> boilerplate in their contracts, like routing all breach claims through
>> arbitrage by an AI in St Petersburg.) But even if it's not, i.e. somehow
>> where we regulate the market so that only symmetric contracts stand, if any
>> 1 party entangles, via contract, with multiple other parties without
>> normalizing all their contracts, the mesh of contracts will eventually "gum
>> up". (Anyone who's signed more than 1 non-compete NDA will know what that
>> looks like.) Another (non-free) restriction could be to sunset all
>> contracts at, say, 1 year. So, every entrepreneur has to go back through
>> their mesh of NDAs and re-negotiate/re-sign them every year. But 1 year
>> contracts won't work for everything. So, there'd necessarily be a gumming
>> up around how long the mesh of contracts lasted.
>>
>> All of this works directly against the "freedom" (including transparency
>> and efficiency) of the market. So, contract markets are not free markets at
>> all. Counterintuitively, a well-regulated market can be freer, more
>> efficient, than a contract market. But if the regulators could *reduce* all
>> the complexities of any contract into merit/outcome (instead of price),
>> then that reductive measure could be multimodal (which price can't ...
>> which leads to financial instruments). It might also be multidimensional.
>> Outcome could be a vector of both some variable like [non]responder and
>> time.
>>
>> There'd have to be rules about concreteness of outcome-compliance, of
>> course. E.g. if side effects from toxic false teeth you bought on the
>> street corner kill you from sepsis, you couldn't claim the outcome was met
>> just because you no longer need false teeth (because you're dead). But if
>> the outcome were ,
>> then the teeth vendor could get paid.
>>
>> In effect, this is what we have already, except "outcome" is diffused
>> through the multifarious jurisdictions and power dynamics of who can, and
>> the RoI of, hiring a team of lawyers. If the modes and reduction to outcome
>> were more algorithmic, it might make the markets more efficient than they
>> can be with asymmetric contracts or deep-canon centralized regulation.
>>
>>
>> On 4/26/21 1:37 PM, Pieter Steenekamp wrote:
>> > No, a free market system is not limited to outcome based contracts.
>> Free market is allowing two (or more) parties to have a valid contract on
>> the terms and conditions both (or all) parties agree on. A patient and an
>> oncologist may agree on a contract where the patient pays for the effort
>> and not the outcome, that could still be 100% within the free market
>> system. This is of course provided the authorities don't have regulations
>> stipulating the legal bounds of the contract.
>> > For example, in Cape Town there are many poor people without front
>> teeth. A while ago an enterprising man, without any medical qualifications,
>> set up shop on a pavement to do false teeth at an order of magnitude lower
>> price than a qualified dentist. He was shut down very quickly. In a free
>> market system he would have been allowed to provide dentures resulting in
>> happy poor people with front teeth who cannot afford a traditional dentist
>> and an enterprising man making good money. With the regulations that
>> protect people we now have an unemployed poor enterprising man and many
>> people who are still without front teeth.
>> >
>> > On Mon, 26 Apr 2021 at 19:49, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ > geprope...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Re: [FRIAM] A Theory of (Almost) Everything - IEEE Spectrum

[Gary Schiltz]

Neither. We have an overpopulation (of Homo sapiens) problem.

On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 12:17 PM  wrote:

> Merle, and all,
>
>
>
> A naïve question:  Do we have an energy supply problem or do we have an
> energy distribution problem?   For starters, let there be a solar collector
> on the roof of every house in santa fe, roughly the area of the roof
> (roofly the area of the rough?) .  Assuming energy were entirely miscible,
> what proportion of the total energy needs (except food, of course) of Santa
> Feans would that generate.  I assume hundreds of percents, right?
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Merle Lefkoff
> *Sent:* Thursday, April 15, 2021 10:51 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] A Theory of (Almost) Everything - IEEE Spectrum
>
>
>
> Almost, but not quite, Jochen.  He doesn't know about embodied energy.  A
> motor car has an embodied energy contents of 20 800k kWh, while an electric
> car's embodied energy amounts to 34 700 kWh.  Perhaps if he knew this he
> wouldn't be so optimistic.  We are racing toward our doom.
>
>
>
> On Thu, Apr 15, 2021 at 10:06 AM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
> Interesting IEEE podcast: an interview with Václav Smil, who wrote a book
> about "Grand Transitions", similar to "The Major Transitions in
> Evolution" from John Maynard Smith and Eörs Szathmáry
>
>
> https://spectrum.ieee.org/podcast/geek-life/history/a-theory-of-almost-everything
>
>
>
> -J.
>
>
>
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>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Merle Lefkoff, Ph.D.
> Center for Emergent Diplomacy
> emergentdiplomacy.org
>
> Santa Fe, New Mexico, USA
>
>
> mobile:  (303) 859-5609
> skype:  merle.lelfkoff2
>
> twitter: @merle110
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Dancing Robots

[Gary Schiltz]

Thanks for letting me know. In that case, it is truly mind blowing. I had
no idea robotic tech had come so far.

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 10:57 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> Real!!
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Sat, Apr 3, 2021, 9:50 AM Gary Schiltz 
> wrote:
>
>> Serious question, since I didn't make it to vfriam yesterday. With the
>> advances in CGI these days, I don't know if this is computer generated or
>> real. Which is it?
>>
>> On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 10:02 AM Frank Wimberly 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> For those who haven't seen the video that was mentioned in yesterday's
>>> meeting:
>>>
>>> https://youtu.be/fn3KWM1kuAw
>>>
>>> Marc has accomplished a lot since this:
>>>
>>>
>>>- Raibert, M. H., Wimberly, F. C. 1984. Tabular control of balance
>>>in a dynamic legged system. *IEEE Trans. Systems, Man, and
>>>Cybernetics* 14:334--339.
>>>
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] Dancing Robots

[Gary Schiltz]

Serious question, since I didn't make it to vfriam yesterday. With the
advances in CGI these days, I don't know if this is computer generated or
real. Which is it?

On Sat, Apr 3, 2021 at 10:02 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> For those who haven't seen the video that was mentioned in yesterday's
> meeting:
>
> https://youtu.be/fn3KWM1kuAw
>
> Marc has accomplished a lot since this:
>
>
>- Raibert, M. H., Wimberly, F. C. 1984. Tabular control of balance in
>a dynamic legged system. *IEEE Trans. Systems, Man, and Cybernetics*
> 14:334--339.
>
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
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Re: [FRIAM] Friday Fodder

[Gary Schiltz]

I don’t know Eric, but I had hoped that his fingers had just inadvertently
slipped when he was trying to type “Nick”. Otherwise, he should be ashamed.

On Sat, Mar 27, 2021 at 12:10 PM  wrote:

> Dear Eric,
>
>
>
> Use your words!  Tell me how you FEEL!  (};-)]
>
>
>
> N
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Eric Charles
> *Sent:* Saturday, March 27, 2021 7:43 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Friday Fodder
>
>
>
> In Friday's meeting I apologized to Jon that I hadn't given him a proper
> reply to his interesting prods, but that Nick's comments had somehow
> mentally blocked me from doing so. Nick said: "For me, Gibson hopelessly
> misunderstands his monist roots.  Direct perception is either a tautology
> or nonsense."
>
>
>
> I promise Jon a good reply later this weekend, as I get past that blockage
> with the following:
>
>
>
> Look, prick, there are some very different discussions to be had here, and
> pretending they are all the same discussion doesn't help anyone. The
> philosophical monist doesn't get to pretend there is no mechanism involved
> in perception any more than they get to pretend there is no mechanism
> involved in a bridge bearing weight.
>
>
>
> Indirect-perception happens all the time. Looking at my wall right now, I
> see a picture of Christi at our wedding. To me that picture re-presents
> her, and that event, and if there is any sense in which I "perceive" *her
> *while looking at the picture, that perception is not-direct, it is
> mediated by the six-inch tall, flat, still, image. Separately, when I turn
> my head about 15 degrees to the right, I see a walk-through-able doorway,
> my open-able fridge door, a coffee-cup-put-onable counter-top, a navigable
> hallway leading to my family room, etc. Need I tell the same type of story
> about all of those things that I told about seeing Christi in our wedding
> picture? Are *all *my perceptions *mediated *in that same sort of way? Or
> is there some sense in which I perceive most objects and events around me
> more directly than that?
>
>
>
> To answer those question, Gibson innovated an impressive array of
> conceptual elements, including the idea of the ambient energy arrays as
> ecological elements, invariants structures in those array, specificity as a
> property of a subset of those invariants, and an analysis of the
> evolutionary and developmental ways in which organisms can attune to those
> specifying-invariants, and how all that comes together to allow organisms
> to behave accurately with respect to the objects and events around them.
> And all of that stands as a *huge* contribution to the literature,
> regardless of anyone's thoughts about the particular term "direct
> perception" and it's history; especially if one is somehow trying to
> approach that term absent recognition of its multi-century history.
> Gibson's description of the perceptual mechanism shows how we can explain
> organism's perception of the functional implications of objects and events,
> without (in the course of that explanation) punching the tar-baby of
> picture perception and getting stuck with a dualistic cartesian theatre.
>
>
>
> That *explanation *connects strongly with the literatures on dynamics
> system, perceptual control theory, agent based modeling, and others. And in
> a world where most people in the field are still arguing that all
> perception is indirect, it makes sense to label what Gibson is doing a
> theory of direct perception. Your suggestion that it is a moral betrayal of
> values to call it anything other than "perception" with no modifier, is
> dumb.
>
>
>
> Why not just call your system "The Design Perspective"?!? Or to just pick
> one of those words? The answer is simple: Because "Natural Design"
> distinguishes your approach from those you are trying to chastise, and
> by-sheer-virtue-of-label connects your approach with the literature on
> "Natural Selection". Other people get to do things like that too. Gibson's
> work fits within the long tradition of trying to defend the possibility of
> direct perception, and there's nothing wrong with him and his supporters
> making that clear.
>
>
>
> AND even though I started out by saying there are different conversations
> to be had, they are not completely unconnected. You don't get to do the
> bullshit Kantian move (that Peirce and so many other philosophers seems to
> follow) of simply declaring the issues unrelated - that there is a
> scientific psychology and a metaphysical psychology and never the twain
> shall meet. No matter how much it seems like those should be two separate
> things, either the scientific psychology can (ultimately) handle the
> content of the metaphysical psychology or *both *sides are just blowing
> wind. So, if you want to argue for a monist world, you can't go around
> taking a 

Re: [FRIAM] I am accepting wagers

[Gary Schiltz]

Thanks for bringing some more reality into this discussion. I’ve never been
a CIO, but having been a software engineer in the real world for 25 years,
it triggers something in me when someone dismissively claims that a small
group of developers / hackers could turn out software for a gargantuan user
base and thousands of disparate clinics in a weekend. I have no patience
for such hyperbole.

On Sun, Mar 14, 2021 at 10:46 PM Chris Feola  wrote:

> “Of course they did not have access to real databases, nor did they have
> to solve problems of data reconciliation among those disparate databases.
> This kind of infrastructure, as was pointed out, would have added
> significant time for them to complete a 'full function' app.”
>
>
>
> This reminds me of the old Monty Python sketch How To Do It-How To Play
> The Flute: Well, you blow in one end and move your fingers up and down so
> the right notes come out. ANYONE could have built the site in a week or two
> if they didn’t have to connect it to the legacy databases. Features are
> easy, and preexisting ones– how long have companies been selling insurance
> online? – are stupid easy.
>
>
>
> Data is hard. Integration is really, really hard.
>
>
>
> Here’s just one problem: Take a look at, say, your Amazon account. How
> many shipping and billing addresses are there? How many are duplicates-say,
> where the shipping and billing address are the same?
>
>
>
> Now, the user changes a zip code. Do you update any of the other
> addresses? If so, which ones?
>
>
>
> That ONE problem is called Master Data Management, and companies spent
> $11.3 BILLION trying to solve it in 2020.
>
>
>
> Sorry for the rant. Just an old CIO venting.
>
>
>
> Cjf
>
>
>
> Sent from Mail  for
> Windows 10
>
>
>
> *From: *Prof David West 
> *Sent: *Sunday, March 14, 2021 9:45 AM
> *To: *friam@redfish.com
> *Subject: *Re: [FRIAM] I am accepting wagers
>
>
>
> At the peak of the healthcare.gov fiasco, *Sixty Minutes,* did a segment
> on a small company in San Francisco — five people — built site with all the
> capabilities, including calculating subsidies (supposedly the most
> difficult feature), of the official site. It took them a weekend
> (supposedly) — but definitely some very short time span as they did not
> begin the effort until the bad publicity became prominent and the episode
> aired less than two weeks after the initial debut/failure of the official
> site.
>
>
>
> Of course they did not have access to real databases, nor did they have to
> solve problems of data reconciliation among those disparate databases. This
> kind of infrastructure, as was pointed out, would have added significant
> time for them to complete a 'full function' app. And, of course, because
> they were not the government nor the government approved contractor they
> would never have been allowed access.
>
>
>
> davew
>
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Mar 13, 2021, at 7:59 PM, jon zingale wrote:
>
> """
>
> *I can see a lot more work needed that will never be seen from the
> public’s side of the system. The 50,000 sites will not be constant. Some
> new ones will come, and some will go. Hospitals, public health departments,
> independent as well as chain pharmacies have to feed information into the
> system. How do they pass that information? How do they prove they are not a
> hacker and have the authority to change hours, capacity, availability of
> vaccine, location, etc. Are there mechanisms for weeding out defunct and
> out-of-date vaccination sites? The problems getting up-to-date and accurate
> numbers for COVID tests, deaths, ICU usage, etc., demonstrate this is not
> trivial. *
>
> """
>
> Not trivial, but also tinker toys. Industry-level authentication of
> RESTful services is a pattern that many of us on this list ought to be able
> to implement while skimming Instagram or playing online go. A small team of
> Friammers and/or a few interested parties could have something up in a
> month that would be considerably better than healthcare.gov or the New
> Mexico Unemployment app. Some on this list are pretty bright and could
> write or implement formal verification software
>  for
> proving the correctness of the code.
>
> It is so easy to point to software that doesn't do as advertised that it
> is easy to miss out on what the present state of the art actually is. The
> anecdotal cases are click-bait. But hey, I have spilled enough ink on this
> subject already. Yes, we *can* have nice things.
>
> Sent from the Friam mailing list archive
>  at Nabble.com.
>
>
>
> -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
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>
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>
> archives: 

Re: [FRIAM] I am accepting wagers

[Gary Schiltz]

Rather tangential, but I wonder what percent of people in the USA are
computer literate? Here in the "third world" (Ecuador), many, many people
who use the internet almost constantly have never touched a "computer". For
them, a computer is an Android phone.

On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 6:35 PM Barry MacKichan <
barry.mackic...@mackichan.com> wrote:

> When the healthcare.gov fiasco was going on, I was trying repeatedly to
> refill my Starbucks card using their web site. I thought it would be
> interesting to see which site would be running correctly first. I don’t
> know which was first but it was close — it wasn’t a slam dunk win for
> private enterprise over government.
>
> I remember when building an online store with a shopping cart was a big
> deal in the ‘90s. Now building these sites is like playing with tinker toys.
>
> I can see a lot more work needed that will never be seen from the public’s
> side of the system. The 50,000 sites will not be constant. Some new ones
> will come, and some will go. Hospitals, public health departments,
> independent as well as chain pharmacies have to feed information into the
> system. How do they pass that information?  How do they prove they are not
> a hacker and have the authority to change hours, capacity, availability of
> vaccine, location, etc. Are there mechanisms for weeding out defunct and
> out-of-date vaccination sites? The problems getting up-to-date and accurate
> numbers for COVID tests, deaths, ICU usage, etc., demonstrate this is not
> trivial.
>
> The system for entering the data has to be built, has to be secure, and
> thousands of people (eg, pharmacy staff) who want to do something else will
> have to be trained and the technical support team for the vaccinator
> entities as well as for the general public needs to be up to speed.
>
> Also, it is easy for us to assume computer literacy which may not exist
> for some parts of the population. Back in the ‘80s, our support people had
> conversations (with mathematicians, economists, and their students!) like:
>
> Support person: “Now copy the highlighted text to the clipboard”
> Support person:  Hello?
> User: “I’ve looked all over. My computer doesn’t have a clipboard!”
>
> My guess is that about 20% of the population is still at that level, and
> the need to be supported.
>
> And Murphy will be in the wings, watching carefully.
>
>
> Sent from my iPa
>
> > On Mar 13, 2021, at 1:06 PM, Prof David West 
> wrote:
> >
> > Biden promised a Federal Website to give citizens easy an accurate
> access to vaccination appointments. Fully operational May 1, date that all
> Americans wishing a vaccine/vaccination will be able to obtain one.
> >
> > Assume 50,000 vaccination sites, 50, 15-minute, time slots per day and,
> at that time, a maximum of 150 million clients.
> >
> > There are several people on this list who, I believe, could build this
> Website over the course of a weekend, including UE (user experience)
> elements like Google Maps for site locations, and install it on a cloud
> server for volume scaling/descaling. Allow a month to collect data - the
> only thing really problematic is a list of sites, addresses, and
> operational hours (to constrain the daily calendar slots).
> >
> > Total cost: < $25,000 ($500 hr - you folks deserve this pay rate - for
> 40-50 hours)
> >
> > Now the wager: I bet that the feds will contract with a major software
> development corporation for development. Contract will be in the range of 5
> and 10 million dollars; there is a 50% chance the site will be late or
> deployed with partial functionality; there is a 20% chance that it will be
> as dramatic a failure upon debut as was the healthcare.gov site.
> >
> > Risk is two beverages of your/my choice — payable when next we can share
> a physical presence.
> >
> > davew
> >
> >
> >
> > -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
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Re: [FRIAM] I am accepting wagers

[Gary Schiltz]

I don't agree with your premise that someone on this list could build the
website over a weekend. I do agree with the wager, that the federal
government will hire some large contracting firm and spend millions of
dollars, and it will still suck. I have the feeling that that is simply the
nature of the beast that is government.

On Sat, Mar 13, 2021 at 1:06 PM Prof David West 
wrote:

> Biden promised a Federal Website to give citizens easy an accurate access
> to vaccination appointments. Fully operational May 1, date that all
> Americans wishing a vaccine/vaccination will be able to obtain one.
>
> Assume 50,000 vaccination sites, 50, 15-minute, time slots per day and, at
> that time, a maximum of 150 million clients.
>
> There are several people on this list who, I believe, could build this
> Website over the course of a weekend, including UE (user experience)
> elements like Google Maps for site locations, and install it on a cloud
> server for volume scaling/descaling. Allow a month to collect data - the
> only thing really problematic is a list of sites, addresses, and
> operational hours (to constrain the daily calendar slots).
>
> Total cost: < $25,000 ($500 hr - you folks deserve this pay rate - for
> 40-50 hours)
>
> Now the wager: I bet that the feds will contract with a major software
> development corporation for development. Contract will be in the range of 5
> and 10 million dollars; there is a 50% chance the site will be late or
> deployed with partial functionality; there is a 20% chance that it will be
> as dramatic a failure upon debut as was the healthcare.gov site.
>
> Risk is two beverages of your/my choice — payable when next we can share a
> physical presence.
>
> davew
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Message to the non-posting 95%

[Gary Schiltz]

Nick says: “There followed an eerie silence.  Scientist strained at their
earphones to ear, examined their screens for any anomalous squiggle.
Finally, the director sighed, ‘I guess there is no life in outer space.’”

That sounds like an interesting beginning or ending to a scifi novel. Is
it, or did you just paraphrase something? Regardless, I'd like to read it.

On Wed, Jan 27, 2021 at 12:05 PM  wrote:

> “There followed an eerie silence.  Scientist strained at their earphones
> to ear, examined their screens for any anomalous squiggle.  Finally, the
> director sighed, ‘I guess there is no life in outer space.’”
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> *From:* thompnicks...@gmail.com 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2021 8:59 PM
> *To:* 'The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group' <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Message to the non-posting 95%
>
>
>
> Dear non-bloviators,
>
>
>
> Some of us bloviators have suddenly woken to the realization that we have
> no idea what you are thinking or what topics require discussion in a forum
> vaguely related to complexity.  I for one, am curious.  Hallooo!
> Anybody out there?
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nick Thompson
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] it's world logic day!

[Gary Schiltz]

I would have thought that most members of FRIAM, when speaking of logic,
are referring to the mathematical and/or computational concept of
propositional logic, which has little if anything to do with a human
dimension. You know, modus ponens, modus tollens, etc. Logic in that sense
would exist even without the existence of biological beings (e.g. Homo
sapiens) that use it as a part (not the only part) of their thinking
process. But maybe I'm not grokking what y'all are talking about.

On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 1:55 PM Merle Lefkoff 
wrote:

> No, Nick. Thinking logically is just not thinking holistically, it misses
> the whole enchilada, and one of the reasons we're doomed--clumsy, but the
> best I have time to come up with now.
>
> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 10:24 AM  wrote:
>
>> Merle,
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the objection you have to logic flows from the misunderstanding
>> of what logic is.  If you define logic is thinking that leads to truth,
>> then any thinking that leads to truth is logical, and the project of Logic
>> Studies is the project of finding out what sorts of thinking lead that
>> way.  So, I would re-interpret your objection to be that logic, as we know
>> it, is so constrained as to be dangerous and misleading.  I don’t want us
>> to give up on truth-seeking – as the pragmatists understood truth.  [Glen,
>> I stipulate your objections.]
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Merle Lefkoff
>> *Sent:* Thursday, January 14, 2021 11:00 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] it's world logic day!
>>
>>
>>
>> I find this celebration very disturbing and even dangerous at a time when
>> some are beginning to realize that logic alone is bereft of the complexity
>> of all the ways of being in a more-than-human world.
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jan 14, 2021 at 9:32 AM  wrote:
>>
>> Thanks, Glen,
>>
>>
>>
>> It’s nice to know that logic is being celebrated.  Still – surprise!—I
>> have a correction.
>>
>>
>>
>> Logic ... [is] the principles of [right] reasoning,
>>
>>
>>
>> Funny how, this article, a celebration of logic, buggers the definition
>> of logic, leaving out it’s ethical dimension.  Well, unless one believes
>> that specious or fallacious logic is “logical”, logic is “good” thought,
>> i.e. thought that leads probably to the truth.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of EthologTy and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???
>> Sent: Thursday, January 14, 2021 9:48 AM
>> To: FriAM 
>> Subject: [FRIAM] it's world logic day!
>>
>>
>>
>> https://en.unesco.org/commemorations/worldlogicday
>>
>> >
>>
>> >
>>
>> > The ability to think is one of the most defining features of humankind.
>> In different cultures, the definition of humanity is associated with
>> concepts such as consciousness, knowledge and reason. According to the
>> classic western tradition, human beings are defined as “rational” or
>> “logical animals”. Logic, as the investigation on the principles of
>> reasoning, has been studied by many civilizations throughout history and,
>> since its earliest formulations, logic has played an important role in the
>> development of philosophy and the sciences.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > Despite its undeniable relevance to the development of knowledge,
>> sciences and technologies, there is little public awareness on the
>> importance of logic. The proclamation of World Logic Day by UNESCO, in
>> association with the International Council for Philosophy and Human
>> Sciences (CIPSH), intends to bring the intellectual history, conceptual
>> significance and practical implications of logic to the attention of
>> interdisciplinary science communities and the broader public.
>>
>> >
>>
>> > A dynamic and global annual celebration of World Logic Day aims at
>> fostering international cooperation, promoting the development of logic, in
>> both research and teaching, supporting the activities of associations,
>> universities and other institutions involved with logic, and enhancing
>> public understanding of logic and its implications for science, technology
>> and innovation. Furthermore, the celebration of World Logic Day can also
>> contribute to the promotion of a culture of peace, dialogue and mutual
>> understanding, based on the advancement of education and science.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>>
>>
>>
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>>
>> FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
>>
>> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe
>> http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com

Re: [FRIAM] patriot hackers, again

[Gary Schiltz]

I agree with what you're saying, Marcus. I haven't seen any kind of
empirical studies, but my gut feeling is that mobs reinforce people's
willingness to be violent, and that willingness to participate in violent
acts, and the level of violence exhibited, grows exponentially with mob
size. If you can cut off the heads from the root of the tree, the smaller
sub-mobs should be overall less violent. The FBI should concentrate on
identifying and eliminating the "Billy Bob bin Ladens" higher in the
hierarchy of right-wing domestic terrorists.

On Tue, Jan 12, 2021 at 3:58 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> To me it an empirical question of whether many flee and give up when they
> believe the activity is criminal or taboo.
> If it is just a mass collective behavior that takes on a momentum of its
> own, then the FIRST thing to do is to stop the behavior.  Make it hard to
> communicate and deflate the mania.   One the noise has subsided then law
> enforcement can start working through the hard core set, one by one.
>
> Sure there will be covert mechanisms for communication that are employed.
>  But I posit that most people just don't have the energy to live in the
> shadows, along the lines of your remark about needing to feel like they
> belong.  They need to have a way to take advantage of civilization, like
> you say taking flights to and from D.C.
>
> With the highly partisan environment, doxing seems less likely to work.
> You'll be among sympathizers.
>
> When rocks start coming through their living room windows, then they will
> know they really have a problem.
>
> Marcus
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2021 12:43 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] patriot hackers, again
>
> My inclination is along the lines of the anarchists here in the PNW, to
> profile and dox them to their communities. If we've learned one thing from
> those apologetic trolls, it's that when they come face-to-face with their
> targets, both the troll and the victims experience epiphany. The troll
> realizes that words do matter and the victims realize that *anyone* can be
> radicalized.
>
> I know there's the risk of some (many?) of them digging in their heels.
> But even the most hardened supremacist or ideologue has trouble suppressing
> the social need to feel they belong.
>
> Of course, some of the doxing will only come if they're charged with
> something. The ones whining about being put on the no-fly list before they
> could get home is a good example. So, charging them with something may be
> required for an adequate doxing.
>
> Re: pulling the plug --
>
>
> https://www.nbcnews.com/politics/congress/extremists-move-secret-line-channels-plan-inauguration-day-d-c-n1253876
>
> It probably would have been better to enlist Amazon to keep Parler open as
> a honeypot. But we still have Gab, which is (kindasorta) distributed.
>
>
> On 1/12/21 11:29 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > What is the right question to ask of this data?   Who are the
> influencers?  Who creates new memes?
> > Pulling the plug seems to be a pretty good solution, actually.   Force
> social distancing, and for similar reasons.
>
>
> --
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

[Gary Schiltz]

I don't understand the lack of security around the Capitol building. I'll
bet that if 100+ BLM protesters had tried to get into the White House, the
results would have been very different, with multiple people being killed
or at least incapicated before even reaching the walls. If someone had
actually managed to scale the White House walls and broken a window to get
in, the secret service would undoubtedly have shot first and asked
questions later. I don't understand why it was so much different at the
Capitol building.

On Fri, Jan 8, 2021 at 3:20 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> I have no problem with the capitol security using deadly force in this
> kind of situation.
>
> As far as I'm concerned they could have sent in Apache helicopters to deal
> with the Malheur situation and made an object lesson of them.
>
> Get that point across.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
> Sent: Friday, January 8, 2021 12:02 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism
>
>
> On 1/8/21 2:48 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > Why did yahoos so easily penetrate the capitol security?   Either the
> police were incompetent, mis-deployed, or they let this happen.
>
> and, and, and...  all three.
>
> Incompetent:  I sense that Capitol Police are not experienced/practiced in
> dealing with aggressive groups...  maybe a few aggressive individuals, but
> not a mob.   The police beating down BLM protestors ARE experienced (likely
> to a fault).  Capitol Police were not "competent" in riot control, not
> really that surprising.
>
> Mis-deployed: I sense that few expected Trump to offer (direct them ) to
> march his rally crowd down to the Capitol, and even then, they didn't
> expect the crowds to become a mob.   Hindsight makes it seem absurd they
> couldn't expect that, but they seem not to have?   DC Mayor who may have
> anticipated some of this does not have jurisdiction on Capitol grounds, she
> probably didn't *need* National Guard to stop the nonsense that might have
> spilled over.  I'm not sure who the cops were in the various BLM protest
> beat-downs in DC but I think they were significantly not the rank and file
> who are normally monitoring the metal detectors in the lobby of the Capitol
> entrance.
>
> Complicit:  Clearly a *few* Capitol Police were taking selfies and
> encouraging the *crowd*, but I think not the *mob* that grew out of it. If
> any of the Capitol Police had been exquisitely aligned with the mob spirit,
> I think they might have lead the charge, maybe shot a few fellow officers
> or some Congressional staff/members themselves.  I do wish there would be a
> public hearing with *every* officer required to account the events from
> their point of view of what happened.  Or more to the point, *private*
> interviews recorded and made public after all were gathered and vetted (so
> that they could not build their narratives together).I'm not sure there
> were more than a few bad apples and then merely bruised or sour apples on
> the force, but it is a microcosm of the larger socio-spiritual rot I think
> that pervades our culture.  It doesn't smell like an "inside job".
>
> On the topic of complicity/culpability:  I think *every* identifiable
> person on Capitol Grounds that day should be charged with the highest crime
> that fits their behaviour/circumstance and the same kind of private
> interviews/statements taken and released to the public.   If one of my
> neighbors or co-workers was involved, I want to know it, and I want to know
> what they *thought* (or claim) they were doing there.   I am a naturally
> forgiving and generous person, but I'd like my neighbors to have to be
> accountable to *me* (and their other
> neighbors/friends/family/colleagues) in the sense of transparency. Mr.
> Viking Buffalo Coyote - hat clearly has a niche/bubble he lives in where
> that persona is allowed/encouraged/celebrated, but I'll bet there were more
> than a few who will be quite chagrined when they realize what they
> participated in and (maybe) how they were complicit and therefore
> culpable.  I also wonder if there were *any* innocent bystanders? Surely
> there were on-protestor citizens attending the hearings?  They were open,
> right?
>
> Meanwhile, I"m glad to see Donald besmirch his already tattered image some
> more, along with that of his (now backpedaling) sycophants.  It feels as if
> he just shat himself (some more) on the way out the door...
>   it will take some time to clean up the nest, but it takes *some* of the
> shine off of his martyrdom doesn't it?
>
>
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of ? glen
> > Sent: Thursday, January 7, 2021 10:34 PM
> > To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group
> > 
> > Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism
> >
> > Your exuberant confidence always catches me off guard. I mean, I largely
> agree with you. But, as usual, my confidence in my own opinion is
> vanishingly 

Re: [FRIAM] Fallback in barbarism

[Gary Schiltz]

I would say that it is possible because it is allowed. The American mythos
has always emphasized the individual over the collective society, freedom
(with responsibility in theory, but usually lacking) from government
interference, and generally a distrust of government in general. There is a
very fine line between libertarianism and anarchism. Our constitutionally
enshrined freedoms, with little, if any, enshrined responsibilities, allows
people to never grow up. A society of adolescents. Most citizens come to
understand the need to grow up and be responsible citizens, but are too
willing to tolerate those who don't. Couple that with the inherent disdain
for government and almost religious devotion to the right to bear arms, and
you have a recipe for fringe anti-government militia groups. A few sayings
make it clear: "Give me liberty, or give me death" (Patrick Henry); "Those
who are willing to give up a little freedom for a little security, deserve
neither." (Benjamin Franklin, paraphrased); "You can take my gun when you
pry it from my cold, dead hands." (popularized by the National Rifle
Association). This is my take on it, as someone who grew up in deep red
Kansas.

On Thu, Jan 7, 2021 at 5:01 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> I must say the images from CNN which we receive here in Europe are a bit
> disturbing. The mob that stormed the heart of American democracy felt like
> anarchy, like a fallback in barbaric ancient times - the time of Barbarians
> vs Romans or even the stone age. It is like Neanderthals found a way to use
> a time machine to travel into the 21st century: one guy was dressed in fur
> pelts and was holding a wooden stick like a wizard from Lord of the Rings,
> and one half-naked guy was wearing furs and horns (the one known as "Q
> shaman"). Long-haired bearded guys have been looting stuff like cavemen -
> in the center of Washington D.C.!
> https://graphics.reuters.com/USA-ELECTION/PROTESTS/qmyvmqewmvr/
>
> How is this possible in the oldest democracy of the world?
>
> -J.
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Discovery of 'cryptic species' shows Earth is even more biologically diverse | Wildlife | The Guardian

[Gary Schiltz]

When I studied biology at university back in the 1970s, my recollection is
that most biologists in those days thought of species as an interbreeding
population of individuals. Over the years, I've seen this definition give
way more and more to defining species by genetic differences alone. Though
I haven't been professionally a biologist for over 40 years (if ever), my
life as a birdwatcher (and occasional keeper of coveted lists of species
seen) has been affected by this shift. Based on genetic analysis (possibly
tempered by studies of behavior, range, morphology), bird species are
frequently "split" into two or more separate groups, either "subspecies",
"races", or even full blown "species" (yay!! I've seen both those, add
another species to my life list). Or the converse is also true - based on
genetic analysis (tempered as above), ornithological consensus will deem
two or more species to be merely different races or subspecies of one
species, which we refer to as "lumping" (boo!!! lost some bragging rights
about my life list).

I asked an ornithologist friend about this a couple of years ago. I've
always been a "lumper" at heart, even if it does result in my life list
being shorter. To me, if two individuals decide to mate, and produce
offspring, they ought to be considered the same species. Maybe adding the
requirement that the offspring are themselves fertile and able to produce
fertile offspring. My ornithologist friend seems pretty firmly in the camp
that defines species by their genetics. I asked him if this wasn't rather
arbitrary, and the only thing I remember him mentioning (which I never
followed up on studying) was the notion of a "clade". I won't comment
further on that, since I know absolutely nothing about clades.

As a side note, we certainly don't classify currently living Homo sapiens
individuals into different species, but then I don't know if the genetic
differences among different races of people are more, or less, significant
than that of some other animal species. This would, of course, be hugely
(and justifiably, I believe) unpopular among us humans. I asked my parrots
what they think, and they just chewed on the furniture more. I don't know
if that signifies agreement or disagreement with my ornithologist friend.

On Sun, Dec 27, 2020 at 11:54 AM  wrote:

>
> https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2020/dec/25/discovery-of-cryptic-species-shows-earth-is-even-more-biologically-diverse-aoe
>
> So what IS a species?  A level of distinctness of design, a degree of
> genetic differentiation, or an interbreeding population?  And what happens
> to Darwinism when these things turn out to be not particularly well
> correlated, in the way that the signs and symptoms of hunger turned out to
> be not so well correlated as the Cartesian model would require?  Steve
> Guerin:  if you want to demolish Darwinism, here is where you start.
>
> Nick
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Re: [FRIAM] Christmas Day

[Gary Schiltz]

I may be able to make it. Is it at 9am  MST?

On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 10:44 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> I'm more interested in whether anyone wants to meet then because I have to
> start the meeting.  If that happens I will stay in the meeting for a
> reasonable amount of time.
>
> Frank
>
> On Sat, Dec 19, 2020 at 10:42 AM John Dobson  wrote:
>
>> I won't be able to meet on Xmas.
>>
>> John Dobson
>>
>> On Fri, Dec 18, 2020 at 7:50 PM Frank Wimberly 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Was there any discussion of a meeting on Christmas day?  I am probably
>>> one of very few who live with young children.  But they will have long
>>> since opened their presents by 9:00am.
>>>
>>> Shall we have a meeting or just skip it?
>>>
>>> Frank
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> 
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>> 
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
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>>>
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>>
>
>
> --
> Frank Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz
> 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
> 505 670-9918
>
> Research:  https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Frank_Wimberly2
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Re: [FRIAM] 5 agencies compromised

[Gary Schiltz]

Kind of makes you wonder if the "deep state" conspiracy theories have a bit
of merit.

On Thu, Dec 17, 2020 at 3:29 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> I do wonder what work will look like after most of the small businesses
> fail.
>
> "Didn't respond to police presence" -> "Didn't listen to the boss."
>
> "Hey where did Jamie go?   Last time I saw him was at that meeting.."
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2020 12:20 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] 5 agencies compromised
>
> Ha! A bit like our police here in the US:
>
>
> https://www.brookings.edu/blog/how-we-rise/2020/08/10/how-excited-delirium-is-misused-to-justify-police-brutality/
>
>
> On 12/17/20 12:00 PM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > It adds a new dimension.  A frustrated former employer doesn't send an
> nasty note through a lawyer.They paralyze you with ketamine and throw
> you in the river.
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Please change the damned thread

[Gary Schiltz]

For what it's worth, Frank, it's hard for me to even imagine you being
abusive to anyone, let alone a friend like Nick.

On Tue, Dec 8, 2020 at 2:45 PM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> This is not about lumbago but may not be of general interest.  Please read
> a little and then stop if it is not a topic that you care about.
>
> I feel like writing a little about the history of my friendship with Nick
> in response to the accusation that I was abusive to him.  During the first
> year of my studies in the PhD program in psychology at Carnegie Mellon I
> took a course in cognitive processes.  One of the themes of that course was
> the failure of behaviorism.  That approach was described to us as an early
> 20th century effort to explain all behavior in terms of learning and that
> the result was a realization that that was not possible.  After a  year I
> became frustrated with the uncertainties and ambiguitied of psychology and
> I left that program and went into a PhD program in math and computer
> science.
>
>
> When I met Nick he told me he was a radical behaviorist I asked him what
> he meant by that.  And my recollection is that he said that he thought that
> people don't have minds or consciousness and that they infer their feelings
> and beliefs from their behavior.  I found this to be anathema because to me
> my consciousness is the first thing I know and the only thing I know with
> certainty.  Nick said aha you're a Cartesian in a way that implied that he
> could dismiss my ideas on topic of consciousness for example. After
> extensive arguments my interpretation is that we gave up on the topic.
>
> We played many games of chess got together with our wives and friends and
> generally had an enjoyable friendship.  We cooperated on the Santa Fe
> Complex project and we both attended friam reliably and for many years. I
> attended a seminar that he organized in which we focused on the book
> Feelings by James Laird, a colleague of Nick's at Clark University.  That
> book argues that we know our feelings by observing our own behavior a
> position that I found odd but I read the book. I usually gave Nick a ride
> to St John's every Friday morning which gave us an opportunity to visit
> privately before joining the meeting.
>
> Before the alleged abuse Nick had told me that he had a negative covid
> test and was waiting the results of the more rigorous test.  He then
> mentioned Bonnet's Syndrome and I wondered how a person who doesn't believe
> in mind explains hallucinations so I asked him.  I knew he had been feeling
> badly but he did not say that he was suffering from Covid-19 nor from
> Bonnet's Syndrome.  Maybe the latter was implicit in his raising the
> topic.  If so, I apologize again.
>
> Nick my remember some of the events I describe differently.
>
> Frank
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Tue, Dec 8, 2020, 10:20 AM  wrote:
>
>> Colleaugues,
>>
>>
>>
>> There are many of us long in the tooth on this list, and I think we
>> should adopt some best practices lest the intellectual life of the list
>> become drowned in laments about lumbago.  In retrospect,  I wish I had
>> informed one of you privately, asked that person to briefly inform the
>> attendees when I went missing at vFriam, and to be a point person to any
>> who would persue the matter further.
>>
>>
>>
>> I tried, unsuccessfully,  to bridge to the less personal topic to
>> Bonnett's Syndrome, which as Frank knew well, presented some problems to me
>> philosophically.  Some of you -- perhaps many -- are familiar with
>> psychodelic experiences and all of you presumably with dreaming.  The
>> enormous inventiveness and creativity of these experiences, their complex
>> structures, and  blooming buzzing confusions, their wildly improbable
>> transitions, are a challenge to any poor monist.  Where the hell does the
>> information come from?
>>
>>
>>
>> It seems to me that my experience is but a flea on the behemoth of my
>> brain.  I am not inclined to go digging in there, but I can see why some of
>> you are.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nick
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???
>> Sent: Tuesday, December 8, 2020 10:20 AM
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Nick's Recovery
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicely circular! You don't have to know/believe the meaning of your
>> words, for those words to have meaning. I'm particularly fond of how
>> abusers will say something abhorrent, then act all surprised when victims
>> take offense. The abuser often takes the stance that they were simply
>> joking and the snowflake should grow a thicker skin. I'm as guilty as the
>> rest.
>>
>>
>>
>> On 12/8/20 8:15 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
>>
>> > I was kidding, of course.. 

Re: [FRIAM] frivolous question

[Gary Schiltz]

I had to Google it as well, and won’t give the answer. Just a minor
correction (pun intended) - the product was not the brand “Wite-Out”, but
was a competitor. Cool trivia.

On Wed, Dec 2, 2020 at 12:35 PM Prof David West 
wrote:

> In 1967 this band was on tour and Jimi Hendrix was the opening act for
> seven of the dates.
>
> One member of that band inherited the fortune his mother made from her
> invention of White-Out; lives in Santa Fe and sponsors an invitation only
> conference there, with world prominent thought leaders discussing
> scientific/social topics.
>
> Without Googling, can any FRIAMmer (especially those in Santa Fe) name the
> band and the member of that band?
>
> davew
>
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Re: [FRIAM] Uncanny Valley was: Biden beats Trump

[Gary Schiltz]

Speaking of Owen, did he just decide there was insufficient signal to noise
ratio?

On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 12:00 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> On 11/11/20 8:57 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> > How do the names of these threads get changed?
>
> I changed this one manually... I simply edited the Subject Line in my
> "Reply To List" response.
>
> When Owen was active here, he was a stickler against "thread bending"
> and to the extent that my replies are almost *always* a tangent, I used
> to feel *more* compelled to branch the Subject.  I may be one of the few
> who try to maintain any of the inheritance of a thread with the "was:"
> idiom.
>
> How important is thread hygiene to you (and others) here?  I'd like it
> if we were more thoughtful/consistent with this and I would *try* to
> comply if others came up with some guidelines.   I think the more facile
> members of the list (Glen in particular) have good tools and habits to
> make up for our wild thread bending/fraying/splattering, but I suspect
> it is a problem for some (many)?
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] election eve

[Gary Schiltz]

I think the rural vs urban split is one of the main factors. Rural people
tend to be a lot more independent, less educated, and perhaps by a bit of
an inferiority complex, more prone to denying science (think climate change
and the Paris Accord). I also believe we Americans have a sense of
entitlement, with part of the national mythos being that old expression
"pull yourself up by your bootstraps" leading to belief that we have earned
their special place in the world. Trump really plays that up. There is also
certainly a mostly hidden undercurrent of racism (belief that black people
generally are lazy - Google for "welfare queen") and cultural jingoism
(belief that immigrants should assimilate and forget their home culture).
And then there is distrust of the federal government and anything that
might be considered socialist. I think we may ultimately discover that talk
by the most liberal faction of the Democratic party may have scared a few
centrists and invigorated the Republicans. There are other factors, but
those are some of the strongest. Sad to say, but Trump may actually more
accurately represent these values in us Americans.

On Thu, Nov 5, 2020 at 3:46 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:

> Do you have an idea why so many people have voted for Trump despite all he
> has done? The cultural difference between the liberal urban centers and the
> conservative countryside can not be the only reason.
>
> Is it FoxNews propaganda, racism or another unknown factor ?
>
>
>  Original message 
> From: Frank Wimberly 
> Date: 11/5/20 21:08 (GMT+01:00)
> To: The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group 
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] election eve
>
> A large percentage of the variance between "us" and "them" seems to be
> living in a city vs living in the country.  Not all but a lot.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Thu, Nov 5, 2020, 12:59 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:
>
>> At some level I think we all recognize that the United States has been a
>> predatory nation.   For centuries, the influential in this country arranged
>> to take the things they wanted, even people.We recognize that we have a
>> better lifestyle than people elsewhere in the world.   Trump releases the
>> shame that might cause us to consider repairing the harm we have done or at
>> least work harder to justify our special status.   No, it is enough to join
>> Team Trump and call those people names.   My dog would have the instinct to
>> herd them, and she would be right.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Robert J.
>> Cordingley
>> *Sent:* Thursday, November 5, 2020 11:08 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] election eve
>>
>>
>>
>> NYT Nicholas Kristof ended his OpEd
>> 
>> this morning with a paragraph that summarized my feeling entirely:
>>
>> "So as I fret about Trump’s efforts to do Russia’s work and delegitimize
>> this election, I also keep wrestling with this question: How is it that so
>> many millions of Americans watched Trump for four years, suffered the pain
>> of his bungling of Covid-19, listened to his stream of lies, observed his
>> attacks on American institutions — and then voted for him in greater
>> numbers than before?"
>>
>> Last count per NYT, there have been 68,644,941 votes (47.8%) this morning
>> for Trump. So many voters, that apparently don't see {choose your favorite
>> crisis} as a key issue either, it boggles my mind. What have those
>> movements done wrong? If I didn't understand how difficult it is to steal
>> an election (detailed in another NYT oped today), I might even say there
>> was something fishy.
>>
>> Suggestions?
>>
>> Robert C
>>
>> On 11/4/20 5:59 PM, Eric Charles wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 5:31 PM Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>>
>> Both cnn.com and foxnews.com report Biden will win Michigan and
>> Wisconsin, and if he wins Arizona and Nevada too where he leads, he has 270
>> electoral votes. This means it looks good for Biden! All here hope that Joe
>> wins.
>>
>>
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>>
>>  Original message 
>>
>> From: uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ 
>>
>> Date: 11/4/20 19:18 (GMT+01:00)
>>
>> To: friam@redfish.com
>>
>> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] election eve
>>
>>
>>
>> One thing that confuses me is Trump being attributed 267 vs 268 EVs. But
>> I suppose it could be Maine, with it's split representation:
>>
>>
>> https://www.cnn.com/politics/live-news/election-results-and-news-11-04-20/h_f5ca6d24c85ac45e193bf0b1c9b1a2f6
>>
>>
>> On 11/4/20 10:12 AM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>> > Nick,
>> >
>> > See Glen's 270 to 267 estimate.  Biden may still win either Georgia or
>> Pennsylvania or both because of the Democrat majority that is likely among
>> the uncounted votes.  If any of that happens Biden wins with a margin.
>> >
>> [...]
>> > Biden: 227, Trump: 

Re: [FRIAM] election eve

[Gary Schiltz]

The version I have heard is "If you aren't liberal when you're young, you
don't have a heart. If you aren't conservative when you're old, you don't
have a brain."

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 4:16 PM Steve Smith  wrote:

> I appreciate this point of view.  In 2016 it seems like there was a lot
> of rhetoric about "vote in your own best self-interest" as a way to try
> to increase turnout or focus on why any individual should take voting
> seriously.
>
> Working at LANL for 27 years I heard *way* too many people there voting
> for War Hawks because it was "good for (nuclear weapons) interest" which
> was good for the lab's/county's budget... etc.
>
> I've never voted for my specific self-interest (supporting school bonds
> because my kids were of school age or against them because I had none or
> they were done with that) but with an idea toward a larger self-interest
> of "what kind of world do I want to live in?"...   which has progressed
> with age from one where perhaps there was a lot of scrappy scrapping
> going on where I could "get ahead" to one where "as few people are under
> acute stress and misery as possible such that everyone (human and
> non-human everyones) rises to be their best selves".   I know this is
> very Pollyanna at some level...   But I so much prefer to ignore my
> baser instincts of "greed and fear" in deference to something a little
> more "enlightened".
>
> I have always been appalled by the admonition "If you are not liberal
> while young and conservative when old, there is something wrong with
> you".   I refactored it to "idealistic while young and practical when
> old".   My *practicality* says that my life is improved by the lives of
> my family, friends, neighbors, and beyond being improved, and as Marcus
> reflects here, that works mainly/only/best for those of us NOT living
> under dire threat of privation of abuse, but I would claim that the bulk
> of that "threat" is an illusion in the first world.   We all have spare
> capacity to "rise above" if we choose to.
>
> - Steve
>
> On 11/4/20 11:54 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> > Nick wrote:
> >
> > < I know two trump supporters quite well.  Mind you, we don't talk
> politics that much.  Both are owners of small businesses who have led the
> highly regulated lives that folks must lead if they are going to make money
> in a politically diverse community.  Both [thought they] saw gains from the
> Tax Cuts.  I think both think the economic policies have been good for them
> and they find the crazy stuff kinda fun.  >
> >
> > Let me just give you my visceral response:   If one is doing ok -- not
> having your neck crushed under the knee of a cop or starving -- then I have
> the expectation that a person persuade on the basis on what is good for
> everyone, not what is good for them.I don't care how they make money.
>  That is their problem.   I did fine under Bush, Obama, and even Trump.
>  I'm a lucky one.   It would never occur to me to use minor trends up or
> down in my income for a reason why someone should run the most powerful
> democracy in the world.  I find it petty and appalling that people do think
> of making this connection.   Yes, I would cancel them if I had subscribed
> to them, but I never did subscribe to them.
> >
> > Marcus
> > -  . -..-. . -. -.. -..-. .. ... -..-.  . .-. .
> > FRIAM Applied Complexity Group listserv
> > Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam
> > un/subscribe http://redfish.com/mailman/listinfo/friam_redfish.com
> > archives: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
> > FRIAM-COMIC http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] election eve

[Gary Schiltz]

What source indicated those numbers?

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 12:09 PM Marcus Daniels  wrote:

> Biden has got a 270 vs. 267 last time I checked, assuming he can’t take
> Pennsylvania.
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Gary Schiltz
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 4, 2020 8:37 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] election eve
>
>
>
> Nick, I was rather wondering the same thing myself. Frank, please toss us
> a thread-thin lifeline to help buoy the spirits of us bleeding heart
> liberals haha. Is your optimism somehow based on the number of uncounted
> mail-in ballots?
>
>
>
> On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 11:33 AM  wrote:
>
> Frank,
>
>
>
> I am just waking up.  (Yeah, I know.)  I see that biden has to carry all
> the states where he is leading and at least  one in which he is not.  Can
> you tell me the basis for your cautious optimism?  I need that right now.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Barry MacKichan
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 4, 2020 9:47 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] election eve
>
>
>
> I’m not sure that Trump believes there is any chance the courts will help
> stop counting the vote.
>
> The other purpose for what he is doing is to create another grievance.
> Trump thrives on grievances, and a few more will only help his
> post-presidential career (right-wing broadcasting??).
>
> —Barry
>
> On 2 Nov 2020, at 16:42, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> Any party that participates in efforts to invalidate ligitimate voters or
> ballots does not deserve to have candidates in office.  In every case that
> I am aware of in this election courts have decided in favor of the voters
> or ballots that are the subjects of these kinds of efforts.  Trump et al
> seem desperate.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++%0D%0ASanta+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2020, 2:24 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
>
> https://www.startribune.com/more-than-1-7m-absentee-ballots-returned-in-minnesota-as-feds-announce-election-monitors/572949792/
>
>
>
> Barr is sending the DOJ to help with the election.
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>
> I dunno.  What Is happening in MN.
>
> https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/minnesota/
>
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 1:03 PM
> To: FriAM 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] election eve
>
> What's happening in Minnesota?
>
> https://electoral-vote.com/evp2020/Pres/Graphs/minnesota.html
> https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/minnesota/
> https://electionprojection.com/minnesota-presidential-election.php
>
> https://www.politico.com/2020-election/race-forecasts-and-predictions/minnesota/
>
>
> On 11/2/20 8:42 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
> > Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 8:26 AM
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: [FRIAM] election eve
> >
> > (Everyone is seeing Wisconsin as must win and ignoring what is
> > happening in Minnesota, a state with the same 10 votes as Wisconsin.)
>
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
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> Zoom Fridays 9:30a-12p Mtn GMT-6  bit.ly/virtualfriam un/subscribe
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> http://friam-comic.blogspot.com/
>
>
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> archives: http://friam.47136

Re: [FRIAM] election eve

[Gary Schiltz]

Nick, I was rather wondering the same thing myself. Frank, please toss us a
thread-thin lifeline to help buoy the spirits of us bleeding heart liberals
haha. Is your optimism somehow based on the number of uncounted mail-in
ballots?

On Wed, Nov 4, 2020 at 11:33 AM  wrote:

> Frank,
>
>
>
> I am just waking up.  (Yeah, I know.)  I see that biden has to carry all
> the states where he is leading and at least  one in which he is not.  Can
> you tell me the basis for your cautious optimism?  I need that right now.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Barry MacKichan
> *Sent:* Wednesday, November 4, 2020 9:47 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] election eve
>
>
>
> I’m not sure that Trump believes there is any chance the courts will help
> stop counting the vote.
>
> The other purpose for what he is doing is to create another grievance.
> Trump thrives on grievances, and a few more will only help his
> post-presidential career (right-wing broadcasting??).
>
> —Barry
>
> On 2 Nov 2020, at 16:42, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> Any party that participates in efforts to invalidate ligitimate voters or
> ballots does not deserve to have candidates in office.  In every case that
> I am aware of in this election courts have decided in favor of the voters
> or ballots that are the subjects of these kinds of efforts.  Trump et al
> seem desperate.
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2020, 2:24 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
>
> https://www.startribune.com/more-than-1-7m-absentee-ballots-returned-in-minnesota-as-feds-announce-election-monitors/572949792/
>
>
>
> Barr is sending the DOJ to help with the election.
>
>
>
> -- rec --
>
>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 3:33 PM  wrote:
>
> I dunno.  What Is happening in MN.
>
> https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/minnesota/
>
> Nicholas Thompson
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
> Clark University
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of u?l? ???
> Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 1:03 PM
> To: FriAM 
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] election eve
>
> What's happening in Minnesota?
>
> https://electoral-vote.com/evp2020/Pres/Graphs/minnesota.html
> https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/2020-election-forecast/minnesota/
> https://electionprojection.com/minnesota-presidential-election.php
>
> https://www.politico.com/2020-election/race-forecasts-and-predictions/minnesota/
>
>
> On 11/2/20 8:42 AM, Marcus Daniels wrote:
> >
> > -Original Message-
> > From: Friam  On Behalf Of Prof David West
> > Sent: Monday, November 2, 2020 8:26 AM
> > To: friam@redfish.com
> > Subject: [FRIAM] election eve
> >
> > (Everyone is seeing Wisconsin as must win and ignoring what is
> > happening in Minnesota, a state with the same 10 votes as Wisconsin.)
>
>
> --
> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>
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Re: [FRIAM] numbers

[Gary Schiltz]

For me, neither is scary. It contributes to my personal policy of avoiding
densely populated areas.

On Mon, Nov 2, 2020 at 11:01 AM Prof David West 
wrote:

> Which is scarier?
>
>   -- 41 out of 50 states show an increase in COVID cases.
>   -- 105 out of 3,141 counties show an increase in COVID cases.
>
> Which is more accurate?
>
> Which number should guide policy?
>
> davew
>
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Re: [FRIAM] high turnout and tight races?

[Gary Schiltz]

Arghhh, I meant to write that I’ve warmed to the idea of mandatory voting,
not warned. The perils of typing on a phone.

On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 9:40 PM Gary Schiltz 
wrote:

> I think that Republicans make up way less than half of the population, but
> the people who are traditionally less inclined to vote, would vote Democrat
> if they voted.  This is responsible for Republicans lately getting very
> slightly over half the votes cast.  I further believe that most of the
> newly motivated voters come from this heretofore underrepresented left
> leaning group, hence the likelihood of the Democratic margin of victory
> being larger this year. Whether that implies a correlation between turnout
> and margin of victory, I will leave it to the statisticians to argue over.
>
> Incidentally, I have warned to the idea of mandatory voting, as we have
> here in Ecuador, and I believe in Australia as well. Without a “papel de
> votación”, i.e. a certificate that proves that you voted in the
> previous election, you have to pay a fine in order to get government
> services such ad drivers licenses.
>
> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 8:16 PM Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>
>> I would think that the more people who vote the less likely a tie or
>> close outcome becomes, simply by the larger number of ways you can miss
>> with more votes in play.
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>>
>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020 at 8:17 PM Frank Wimberly 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> N = 3 is slightly better.  But I don't have time or incentive to do a
>>> detailed statistical analysis.
>>>
>>> ---
>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>>>
>>> 505 670-9918
>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:14 PM Frank Wimberly 
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> In 1964 Johnson beat Goldwater by 60 to 40.  The Kennedy/Nixon and
>>>> Gore/Bush elections were extremely close.  In all three elections the
>>>> turnout was between 35 and 40 percent.
>>>>
>>>> ---
>>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>>>>
>>>> 505 670-9918
>>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>>
>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 6:00 PM Frank Wimberly 
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> I'm saying that in this election there will be high turnout and not a
>>>>> very close election.
>>>>>
>>>>> ---
>>>>> Frank C. Wimberly
>>>>> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM 87505
>>>>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/140+Calle+Ojo+Feliz,++Santa+Fe,+NM+87505?entry=gmail=g>
>>>>>
>>>>> 505 670-9918
>>>>> Santa Fe, NM
>>>>>
>>>>> On Wed, Oct 28, 2020, 5:59 PM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙  wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> So, what about the question I asked? You have no opinion on whether
>>>>>> high turnout negatively or positively correlates with narrow victories?
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On 10/28/20 4:52 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>>>>>> > I predict that Biden will win by a large margin and that the
>>>>>> outcome will be clear on election night notwithstanding any outstanding
>>>>>> uncounted votes.  Young people are voting in unprecedented numbers and 
>>>>>> are
>>>>>> reportedly voting against Trump.  Similarly the elderly, who favored 
>>>>>> Trump
>>>>>> over Clinton by 10+ percentage points in 2016 are favoring Biden over 
>>>>>> Trump
>>>>>> by a similar margin, according to polls.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > The good thing about predictions is that they can be evaluated
>>>>>> perfectly after the events have happened.
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > Frank
>>>>>> >
>>>>>> > ---
>&

Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

[Gary Schiltz]

I would have thought libertarian thought would be more aligned with
anarchism than with authoritarianism.

On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 11:18 AM Steve Smith  wrote:

> Carl Tollander wrote:
>
> -9,-8.1
> But I do think it would depend a bit on the day.
> Oddly, never thought of myself as a libertarian.
>
> I think some pretty strong *Fascists* co-opted the term "Libertarian" for
> themselves.   My experience with the *L*ibertarian self-identified is they
> seem to lean toward a virulent extremist willingness to *assert their will*
> on others under the guise of protecting *their will from subversion* .
> When I was younger (more juiced on the hormones and rhetoric and appeal of
> competition?) I was more seduced by some of that.  Now it just makes me
> feel systemically ill.
>
> I don't know you well Carl, but from what I do think I know, you are
> clearly *very* independent and *very* considerate of others and their
> personal freedoms.  That sounds pretty *l*ibertarian to me FWIW.
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
> On Mon, Oct 12, 2020 at 8:48 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
>> There is another aspect of staying behind which puts more weight on
>> maintaining local (e.g. family and childhood) relationships.   I don’t
>> think this inclination is overtly authoritarian.   However, a strong desire
>> to maintain a social fabric could lead to policing mechanisms for them, and
>> that brings in (say) the church.  When a social network is more important
>> than having any sort of purpose, weird things happen.   Wired has an
>> article on some crazies up in Forks, Washington that is worth a skim.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *David Eric Smith
>> *Sent:* Monday, October 12, 2020 7:35 AM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
>>
>>
>>
>> So this is metastasizing now, and there have been other decades when it
>> wasn’t such a problem, or at least not as overt.
>>
>>
>>
>> Is that due to demographic sorting?  In more prosperous (or even just
>> earlier) times, enough people stayed near where they were born that
>> cultures got some mix of preferences, and you didn’t have whole regions
>> “submitting too much to the authorities in their lives”.  But when those
>> who wanted out could get out, and did so systematically, the ones who
>> stayed behind could create a tailored paradise for the preferences that had
>> caused them to stay behind?
>>
>>
>>
>> On Oct 12, 2020, at 10:19 AM, Roger Critchlow  wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://www.washingtonpost.com/business/2020/10/12/trump-voter-authoritarian-research/
>>
>>
>>
>> -- rec --
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Oct 11, 2020 at 12:27 AM Marcus Daniels 
>> wrote:
>>
>> There’s a page on the 2020 election where they claim, among other strange
>> things, that Warren is a right-leaning authoritarian.   If that is true,
>> which I doubt, it says to me politicians are mirroring the electorate in a
>> very obscure way.   And I am pretty sure I am not far to the left of Bernie
>> Sanders.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Stephen Guerin
>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 10, 2020 8:39 PM
>> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
>> friam@redfish.com>
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
>>
>>
>>
>> ec=-5.75 & soc=-6.3
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020, 9:18 PM  wrote:
>>
>> I’m more of a libertarian than Dave is?  Something MUST be wrong, here.
>>
>>
>>
>> Nicholas Thompson
>>
>> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>>
>> Clark University
>>
>> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>>
>> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>> <https://linkprotect.cudasvc.com/url?a=https%3a%2f%2fwordpress.clarku.edu%2fnthompson%2f=E,1,U3OccPSjskXK4svW9X1qk3Vv7E5UwkKy9mLBuwBfoPfJKYxJ6aCBK0PVs7udT_TYGhprp1R603GJlx6xKqM35rw3C-x7J0zwGZ6_tMf3hqMPHZB64xRxPw,,=1>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Prof David West
>> *Sent:* Saturday, October 10, 2020 6:39 PM
>> *To:* friam@redfish.com
>> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest
>>
>>
>>
>> Econ left/right:  -0.88
>>
>> Social Lib/Auth: -6.1
>>
>>
>>
>> davew
>>
>> NOT a Libertarian
>>
>>
>>
>> On 

Re: [FRIAM] Political compass teest

[Gary Schiltz]

I was pretty much dead center in the lower left quadrant, which was
surprising to me. I would have thought I would be in the middle of the
whole graph.

On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 4:52 PM George Duncan  wrote:

> Jon, I took it. I'm barely left on economics and strongly libertarian on
> social issues
>
> George Duncan
> Emeritus Professor of Statistics, Carnegie Mellon University
> georgeduncanart.com
> See posts on Facebook, Twitter, and Instagram
> Land: (505) 983-6895
> Mobile: (505) 469-4671
>
> My art theme: Dynamic exposition of the tension between matrix order and
> luminous chaos.
>
> "Attempt what is not certain. Certainty may or may not come later. It may
> then be a valuable delusion."
> From "Notes to myself on beginning a painting" by Richard Diebenkorn.
>
> "It's that knife-edge of uncertainty where we come alive to our truest
> power." Joanna Macy.
>
>
>
>
> On Sat, Oct 10, 2020 at 3:22 PM jon zingale  wrote:
>
>> I just took the political compass test and surprise surprise, I am a
>> left-libertarian.
>>
>> Take the test here if you are interested:
>> https://www.politicalcompass.org/test
>>
>> <
>> http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/file/t395744/Screen_Shot_2020-10-10_at_3.png>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] post debate

[Gary Schiltz]

I don't think that one has to be an 'ultra-liberal Democrat' to share that
view. Both sides of the political spectrum have exploited fear of the other
to their advantage to the extent that there is little to be gained by
taking centrist views.

On Thu, Oct 8, 2020 at 10:38 AM Prof David West 
wrote:

> I share this with a bit of trepidation, but ...
>
> I was engaged in a conversation with some of my 'ultra-liberal democratic'
> friends in Santa Fe after the debate. The denouement of the discussion was
> their comment:
>
> "Both sides have so successfully demonized the other that fear is the
> single most dominant issue in this election. Both sides are convinced that
> the apocalypse will result from the other side winning. There is no
> rationality left."
>
> davew
>
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Re: [FRIAM] President tested positive for virus

[Gary Schiltz]

Mr. Cynical checking in here. Does he really have Covid, or is this a ploy
to get sympathy votes?

On Fri, Oct 2, 2020 at 3:52 AM Pieter Steenekamp 
wrote:

> The outcome of this might be some perceived indication of the efficacy of
> the hydroxychloroquine treatment. I'm not saying a sample size of one has
> any scientific validity, but sometimes perceptions are more important than
> reality.
>
> The elephant in the room is how much will the severity of his symptoms
> influence the election outcome?
>
> On Fri, 2 Oct 2020 at 07:08, Jochen Fromm  wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> Donald tweeted he has tested positive for COVID19
>> https://twitter.com/realDonaldTrump/status/1311892190680014849
>>
>> -J.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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>>
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] God in Science and Religion (was Re: why some people hate cops)

[Gary Schiltz]

This isn't in response to Nick, just a convenient place to hit "Reply" in a
thread in which I've already deleted most of the past messages. My own take
on why to hate religion and/or religious people is based on my upbringing
in and around a population of fairly uneducated, intolerant religious
bigots in northeast Kansas. There was one, and only one, "true" way to
believe, and that was a "fire and brimstone" authoritarian father figure as
"God", and us poor mortals as worms whose only hope to escape painfully
burning for eternity in hell, was to admit how much filth we are and beg
humbly and fervently for forgiveness for being that way. I grew up
believing all that crap. I loved nature, so I was drawn to biology.
Unfortunately, my high school biology teacher was a deacon in the Baptist
church and fervent creationist. I went to University to study biology, with
a huge chip on my shoulder, determined to prove these evolution-believing
numbskull professors of their folly. I basically wasted the first three
years of my college education believing that creationist shit. Somehow I
finally saw through it and became a "born-again atheist". My hero is
Richard Dawkins. In my case, that was the only way I had been exposed to
religion, and once I rejected it, I've found it much easier (maybe I'm
lazy) to reject religion out of hand with the same fervor that those
intolerant people of my childhood did, and continue to, embrace it.

On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 5:04 PM  wrote:

> reiteration of evidence to Eric the deep disdain and hatred many in Science
>
>
>
> Yeah.  Richard Dawkins and three other loonies.  I was in a chatgroup with
> hard scientists, etc., from all over the world for about a year, and I was
> the only avowed non-religious person on the chat.  The european physicists
> were all dedicated cartesians seeking truth in the real world … I e, the
> world that god knows and we aspire to know.   Any belief in a world beyond
> experience is a religious belief.
>
>
>
> I persist in thinking the key word is “hate”, here.   The way you speak
> these “many”,  with their “deep distain and hatred” in such sweeping terms,
> it seems that you hate them.  So what exactly is hate.  I think it’s an
> attempt to recruit allies to expell the target from one’s universe, to
> exile them. But Frank is right:  There is an element of “*get thee behind
> me”* in hatred.  You cannot hate what you don’t feel in some degree
> attached to.  So the key to resolving hatred is to find the tie that binds
> one to the thing one hates, and snip it.  Once you have done that, one
> doesn’t need allies any more.   You just walk away.
>
>
>
> So, Steve.  What do you find *attractive* in the scientistic denial of
> faith?  I am guessing that it has to do with their claim of certainty. But
> certainty is something that ony a religious person can have.Or, to put
> it round the other way, Whenever we speak with  certainty, we are speaking
> from the religious side of ourselves. As I am doing right now.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Stephen Guerin
> *Sent:* Friday, September 25, 2020 10:41 AM
> *To:* The Friday Morning Applied Complexity Coffee Group <
> friam@redfish.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] God in Science and Religion (was Re: why some
> people hate cops)
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Sep 25, 2020 at 5:42 AM Marcus Daniels 
> wrote:
>
> I don’t, for example, recognize quantum mechanics as truth.  If it turns
> out there is a convincing explanation why nature has to be this way, then
> it has to be this way and the “divine” has been cornered.   If nature can
> be some other way, in regimes that are hard for today’s technology to
> observe, then those are interesting qualifications or alternative models.
>  It’s all just provisional.
>
>
>
> I brought up Planck's views for two reasons:
>
>- His views on religion and his rejection of its foundation of miracle
>and superstition
>- His challenge to the most sophisticated of scientists with
>"generalized world views" that an understanding/model of "God" is a worthy
>goal for a scientist.
>
> While I think Action and Bidirectional Path Tracing in Dual Fields is a
> potential model (Glen and Jon can unpack that in a steel man) I don't want
> to get distracted by the "How" the synthesis might happen. To borrow from
> Eric Smith in the Jim Rutt Podcast
> :
> "we shouldn’t try to spin scenarios at this point".
>
>
>
> And for full disclosure, upon reflection, my post was mostly targeted at
> Eric Smith after I saw his comment on Marcus's post.
>
> First was to use Marcus's post as a reiteration of evidence to Eric the
> deep disdain and hatred many in Science have for 

[FRIAM] NM Absentee Ballots

[Gary Schiltz]

Since Karen and I both live outside the USA, but are eligible to vote and
last voted in New Mexico, we started the process of voting by absentee
ballot. I was pleasantly surprised to find that we could send our signed,
scanned request forms to the county clerk (we last lived in San Miguel
county) by email, and that we could receive our absentee ballots, along
with Affidavits of Eligibility forms, by email as well. I am in absolute
agreement with this as a policy. I was, however, very surprised that the
email, as well as the affidavit, states that we can return both the signed
and scanned affidavit, and the filled and scanned ballot itself by email or
fax. While I personally have no problem with people knowing who I voted
for, I'm sure that many people do. Such a wide open system seems rife for
potential abuse.
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Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats

[Gary Schiltz]

Which, by transitivity must mean animosity toward the 40% of idiot citizens
who keep such radical ideas from having a chance in hell of happening.

On Mon, Sep 14, 2020 at 10:38 AM Marcus Daniels 
wrote:

> I guess I don't get all this animosity toward Amazon.   If it is too big,
> then use the force of government to break it up.
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
>
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of Steve Smith
>
> Sent: Monday, September 14, 2020 8:34 AM
>
> To: friam@redfish.com
>
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Getting You Libertarians' Goats
>
>
>
> Glen -
>
>
>
> Thanks for the reminder to keep on supporting local/independent if you
> want them to be around later.  Or because they are your neighbors.  Or of
> course, if you just want to stick it to Bezos like the Lilliputians that we
> are!
>
>
>
> I didn't know about this resource.   I have degenerated to routing all of
> my orders through Op Cit which moved to De Vargas from SanBusco. They try
> very hard to find and obtain any title and have offered Mary that they will
> also add her wish list to theirs and pull books she is looking for as they
> find them (they have a big backlog of unsorted and get more every day in
> trade) rather than order.
>
>
>
> They don't seem to be registered with Bookshop, nor does Big Star... I'll
> follow up and see why maybe not.
>
>
>
> - Steve
>
>
>
> On 9/14/20 8:30 AM, uǝlƃ ↙↙↙ wrote:
>
> > And just in case you want to avoid enriching super villains like Bezos:
>
> >
>
> > https://bookshop.org/books/bonds-of-civility/9780521601153
>
> > https://bookshop.org/books/the-taming-of-the-samurai-honorific-individ
>
> > ualism-and-the-making-of-modern-japan-revised/9780674868090
>
> >
>
> > And the book Steve shared:
>
> > https://bookshop.org/books/blackfoot-physics-a-journey-into-the-native
>
> > -american-worldview/9781578633715
>
> >
>
> > On 9/13/20 6:52 PM, Carl Tollander wrote:
>
> >> Yes to Ikegami's "Bonds of Civility"and her other book "Taming of the
> Samurai".
>
> >>
>
> >> Carl
>
> >>
>
> >>
>
> >> On Sun, Sep 13, 2020 at 4:14 PM David Eric Smith  > wrote:
>
> >>
>
> >> This idea of places where people of different walks “encounter each
> other” — or even better have something meaningful to do with each other,
> has an interesting role at a certain period of social change in Japan.
>
> >>
>
> >> From a friend and colleague:
>
> >>
> https://www.amazon.com/Bonds-Civility-Aesthetic-Political-Structural/dp/0521601150
>
> >> The author argues that the creation of “publics” was an important
> social innovation in getting around the codified barriers in an officially
> feudal society, de facto before it was possible de jure.
>
> >
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [FRIAM] effective altruism

[Gary Schiltz]

I assumed it was some sort of late or early April fool’s joke.

On Wed, Sep 9, 2020 at 11:00 AM Frank Wimberly  wrote:

> (327*10^6)*10^6 = 3270*10^12 is a lot more than Bloomberg has.  Didn't
> anyone notice this during the broadcast?
>
> ---
> Frank C. Wimberly
> 140 Calle Ojo Feliz,
> 
> Santa Fe, NM 87505
> 
>
> 505 670-9918
> Santa Fe, NM
>
> On Wed, Sep 9, 2020, 8:28 AM uǝlƃ ↙↙↙  wrote:
>
>> This site is hilarious:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> https://make-it-rain-bloomberg.glitch.me/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> I think the next time I donate money to any charity, I'll go there first.
>> It would be kinda cool to mail $1 to everyone in a place like Friendsville
>> city, Tennessee anonymously. You could even draw an arbitrary symbol on
>> each dollar bill. Depending on the town and the symbol, you might increase
>> the number of QAnon believers.
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>>
>> ↙↙↙ uǝlƃ
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening

[Gary Schiltz]

It appears the title of the book is actually "Go Set a Watchman" (see
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_Set_a_Watchman).

On Sat, Sep 5, 2020 at 4:27 PM  wrote:

> Steve,
>
>
>
> Your story, like so many of your stories, cuts to the heart.  If you
> haven’t already, I recommend you read *Go Call a Watchmen, *the
> pre-written sequel to *To Kill a Mockingbird, *in which Scout discovers
> that, at least from seen from a Northern perspective, is actually a flaming
> racist.  That perspective thing, as Glen keeps reminding me, is so
> important.  I would love to know what you (-all) think of that book.
>
>
>
> Nick
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Friam  *On Behalf Of *Steve Smith
> *Sent:* Saturday, September 5, 2020 1:27 PM
> *To:* friam@redfish.com
> *Subject:* Re: [FRIAM] Today's Sermon:: a minor awokening
>
>
>
> Nick -
>
> I think I may well know the man of whom you speak... he is in my "second
> order circle" so I only see him while visiting certain friends or at events
> we all share or the occasional criss-cross in a public venue.   I will try
> to remember to ask him if he remembers YOU...   question is which
> stereotype might I appeal to to describe you to him?   I won't speculate on
> what forms that might take as I explore my own stereotypes, or worse yet,
> my projections of what *his* stereotypes of you might be. If we are
> talking about the same person I doubt he would have "avoided you"... he has
> been fairly politely blunt with me a few times and then resumed the jovial
> conversations we were having.   He seemed very practiced at navigating (not
> so) hidden judgements and assumptions about him.
>
> My own mother had a modest amount of self-awareness, growing up in KY
> fairly proud of being a "Yankee" in the sense of north of the Mason-Dixon
> and from a subculture that was too poor to have ever risked owning a slave
> or having a close relative who did.  She lived with her aunt in the city of
> Frankfort during the school year in the depression for lots of reasons.
> She was therefore raised as an only child, her cousins having recently
> grown and moved out of the family home.   She tells an anecdote of having
> developed a friendship with a girl who lived *somewhere* between *her
> school* and her aunt's house... she would pause to play with her every day
> after school until it got to where she started being noticeably late
> home... when she told her aunt why she was late, she said "why don't you
> just invite your friend home next time and you can play here!"...  she
> asked her friend who resisted for about a week and then finally came home
> (her aunt married a Scottish Doctor, so their home was very meticulous and
> in a nicer neighborhood, but they lived crazy-frugal anyway) and after the
> first day, her aunt very politely told her not to invite the friend back,
> and in fact, was forbidden to play with her anymore.   The little girl was
> apparently the first black person she had ever met and it was years later
> that she guessed that that was what it was all about...   her aunt was too
> "polite" to make a deal about it and too "authoritarian" to be
> questioned.Later her mother gave her a family heirloom which was
> referred to colloquially as a "tar baby" which her mother explained to her
> had been a type of doll that young girls were given to "play with" in the
> style and memory of how their ancestors had been allowed to "play with" the
> slave babies.   Her mother explained how wrong *all* of it was, from the
> slavery to the treating even the babies as property, to replacing them
> post-emancipation with effigies, etc.   I learned this when she was
> unpacking from one of our moves and it showed up in a cardboard barrel
> amongst her mother's (our aunt's) china that we never used...  my sister
> saw it and was intrigued and "wanted to play with it" whereupon my mother
> tried to explain all of this to us and then declaring that "the best thing
> I can do is get rid of it, it is just a reflection of a bad piece of
> history".   I don't know if it went in the burn barrel with our other trash
> or if she figured out some more respectful disposal method... I would like
> to think she knew of a historian or similar for whom such an artifact could
> be made meaningful.   This and other similar instances made me think that
> my parents were the least prejudiced people I knew, until at 19 my sister
> who had a small group of friends from college, one of who was African
> American...  my parents liked him a lot, he was a very sociable and
> interesting person (his father was career military and his mother had died
> when he was young and he and two sisters were raised by "help").   But at
> some point, the friendship drifted into the boyfriend zone and they very
> sternly, albeit embarrassingly disabused 

Re: [FRIAM] words for Nick (political-words focused)

[Gary Schiltz]

I'm sure there are studies showing the dangers of exposure to second hand
sushi. I know the smell lakes me want to barf.

On Sun, Aug 23, 2020 at 10:10 AM glen∉ℂ  wrote:

> I think the standard rhetoric is that the Dems limit positive freedoms,
> where the Reps limit negative freedoms.
> https://plato.stanford.edu/entries/liberty-positive-negative/ Though I
> have lots of problems with this (always false) dichotomy.
>
>
>
> There are exceptions, of course. Anti-abortion Reps want to limit your
> ability to get an abortion (a positive liberty), whereas Dems tend to want
> to limit your cloistering away from people different from you (a negative
> liberty) [⛧]. But it's a good enough dichotomy for most things. I tend to
> think of the Dems as constraint-based solvers (inverse map) and Reps as
> positivists (forward map). Personally, I try to be pluralist and agnostic
> and choose solvers that seem to have a history of working.
>
>
>
>
>
> [⛧] I'd be happy to live somewhere without any sushi, for example. Those
> damned Democrats keep trying to force me to eat sushi. 8^D I have the right
> to live in a sushi-free zone. Don't bring your damned sushi to go plate
> into the local tap room or I'll be forced to shoot you in the face with my
> 9mm loaded with 15 hollow points that I trained for a WHOLE HOUR so I can
> carry it in my pocket.
>
>
>
> On 8/22/20 5:26 PM, Frank Wimberly wrote:
>
> > What freedoms are Democrats trying to take away?  The freedom to dump
> mine tailings in creeks?  That's the one that I can think of.
>
>
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [FRIAM] Curmudgeons Unite!

[Gary Schiltz]

I too have some fear about Trump/Biden debates, but I don't think Biden
could get away with refusing to debate (I could be wrong). Regardless of
how much Trump lies, Biden needs to stick to the facts and avoid stooping
to Trump's level of personal attacks. That said, it wouldn't hurt to
practice his incredulous face.

On Sun, Aug 16, 2020 at 2:08 PM  wrote:

> Jon
>
>
>
> This ...
>
>
>
> a reactionary position to increasingly *support inaction in the face of
> incomplete knowledge as the path of moral high-groun*. While some may
> believe this strategy to be 'correct', it leaves bad-faith actors to make
> the big moves while the purists hole up, finding themselves besieged and
> confined to ivory towers.
>
>
>
> … is one of the most important thoughts to be dangled before me in a long
> time.
>
>
>
> I think it relates to my fears about the Trump/Biden debates.  How do you
> debate a person who is willing to confidently lie?  A debate cannot go
> forward in the absence of any concept of truth.  So, I think Biden should
> either refuse to debate or pick a fight with trump on the first whopper he
> tells,  bury him in facts, refuse to talk about anything else until the lie
> is revealed, and walk calmly off the stage if that conversation be carried
> to its end.
>
>
>
> N
>
> Nicholas Thompson
>
> Emeritus Professor of Ethology and Psychology
>
> Clark University
>
> thompnicks...@gmail.com
>
> https://wordpress.clarku.edu/nthompson/
>
>
>
>
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Friam  On Behalf Of jon zingale
> Sent: Sunday, August 16, 2020 12:36 PM
> To: friam@redfish.com
> Subject: Re: [FRIAM] Curmudgeons Unite!
>
>
>
> Please excuse the Cassandrafreude, but here we are nearly 7 months later
> and we now have the app, it is called the U.S Postal Service. Will the app
> manage to escape any of Dave's points of critique? It is beginning to occur
> to me that manifesting beside the rise of bad-faith science (bogus climate
> studies supporting denial, bogus pharmaceutical trials, and the like) comes
> a reactionary position to increasingly support inaction as the path of
> moral high-ground, in the face of incomplete knowledge. While some may
> believe this strategy to be 'correct', it leaves bad-faith actors to make
> the big moves while the purists hole up, finding themselves besieged and
> confined to ivory towers. What remains of the republic is at risk and not
> just at the hands of those that seek to dismantle it, but also by those too
> paralyzed by the righteousness of certainty to protect it. Somehow, I would
> have much preferred to find myself complaining in November about the
> failures of a first-gen voting app than whining about losing another of our
> critical institutions as we cower in the post-democratic apocalypse.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> Sent from: http://friam.471366.n2.nabble.com/
>
>
>
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