Re: Was;Return to PowerPC?Now HackinSonyMac
On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 12:08 AM, tortoisecymraeg...@gmail.com wrote: Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote: Recently other threads about violating the Apple EULA [snip] how is running OS X on a Playstation 3 any less of a violation of the Apple EULA than running it on an Intel or AMD machine i.e. a ( non- Apple ) PC? Even that running under emulation? MOL is not an emulator, it runs natively on POWER hardware. PLEASE READ THE LINE from my original post DIRECTLY ABOVE yours. On ps3 its sort of a toy since it only has 256MB of RAM... probably limited to Jaguar X.2.8 etc. The PCI-X card is much more expensive and still only has 512MB which is still tight even for Tiger which is going away now. Although for some games maybe it is OK... The Power5+ Intellistation would be more interesting though, not for me as I need a laptop... This is not the thread for discussing this OT. If I am to read OT it will be about the Hackintosh and how it works for those who use it. Not about the intricacies of PlayStations and various schemes to do pointless exercises with it. Most people only use these to help them transition. Linux can mount mac disk images now and has always been able to access HFS disks so it is not so much an issue, I think as using a pc as a mac all the time. I think IBM engineers used to run MOL on their machines but they discourage it now. .. Gee,, did it violate the IBM EULA? How sad for them. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Was;Return to PowerPC?Now HackinSonyMac
On Jul 9, 1:01 am, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio fluxstrin...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Jul 9, 2009 at 12:08 AM, tortoisecymraeg...@gmail.com wrote: MOL is not an emulator, it runs natively on POWER hardware. I am very sorry to disturb you further ! I thought we were on the same side here? but pllease read the line directly below yours below ! PLEASE READ THE LINE from my original post DIRECTLY ABOVE yours. On ps3 its sort of a toy since it only has256MB of RAM... probably limited to Jaguar X.2.8 etc. The PCI-X card is much more expensive and still only has 512MB which is still tight even for Tiger which is going away now. Although for some games maybe it is OK... This is not the thread for discussing this OT. If I am to read OT it will be about the Hackintosh and how it works for those who use it. Well you're certainly not going to hear it from me. I don't even read that stuff. I just skip it. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
Mullin9 wrote: I don't believe you could readily adapt Apple's firmware to a PS3. I don't see much point - OS X on PPC is dead, anyway. And finally, Cell isn't /that/ quick - SP-to-RAM access is dismal, in particular - OS X couldn't use the SPs anyway. Some one did it, it is on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cEkebFzlgQ Incorrect. That video shows someone running OS 10 in some kind of emulator under Linux on the PS3. Big difference between the two. :-) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
2009/7/8 Mullin9 ddavidmul...@inbox.com: Some one did it, it is on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cEkebFzlgQ Don't believe everything you see without analysing it. All that shows is an emulator running under Linux. You can emulate anything on anything; that is the lesson of the Turing machine. With the right emulator, a PS3 could be a PC, a Sinclair Spectrum, a Gameboy or an IBM System 360 mainframe running MVS. Doesn't mean it's natively running any of those OSs. Emulators are *slow*. Incidentally, that is remarkable - the single most amateurish video I've yet to see on YouTube. The loud breathing, wobbly camera, poor focus, poor lighting. Impressively bad. :¬) -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
2009/7/8 Mullin9 ddavidmul...@inbox.com: OOPS I though I could fit the ROM to PS3, and give it more RAM, It didn't work like I expected it would, I wanted to Make a Faster-than-G5 PPC Computer, it was a dud. too mismatched to work at all To be honest, if you even *thought* that such things could be done, you don't have anything /approaching/ the level of knowledge to even attempt to do it. One instance out of hundreds: what do you think the code in a system's ROM *does*? What is it actually there for? The code in a computer's firmware is there to initialise the hardware in the system, test it and then bring it to a known state, then load an operating system from storage and start it running. This means that you can't simply take the ROMs out of one machine and put them in another, because the code will not work on hardware other than that which it is designed for. To give a facetiously trivial example, if the Mac firmware expects the graphics card's framebuffer to be located at 86F in the memory map, and it doesn't find the framebuffer there, it will fail. There is little to no resemblance between the hardware of a PS3 and that of a Mac G5. Porting the OS from one to the other would be a massive undertaking involving many man-years of effort. But even setting aside all this, you seem to believe that the Cell processor is faster than the G5. It isn't. Cell is a very specialised tool and not a terribly good fit for a videogame console, for starters. It's not a very fast PowerPC. It's not PowerPC at all; it's merely a relative. It couples a PowerPC-like core with a bunch of very simple, very specialised sub-processors called SPs. These are not PowerPCs; they are very much simpler than that and can only run certain simple specialised tasks. They cannot run PowerPC code. Cell can be very capable for certain types of task where the calculation can be split up into 6-8 little chunks which can run in parallel on the SPs. Most ordinary computer code cannot, though. You can think of Cell as being a little like one fairly low-powered chip, similar to a PowerPC, coupled with a tiny computer grid of half a dozen ARM processors, which can be used to accelerate a few specific tasks such as MP3 coding, movie transcoding and stuff like that - and *nothing else*. For general purposes, they are useless. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Was;Return to PowerPC?Now HackinSonyMac
Recently other threads about violating the Apple EULA have been shut down. Those threads were far more interesting than this one. the original discussion of the return to PPC has some value on the list since many hope for some solution to the Snow Leopard switch. But Nanny, how is running OS X on a Playstation 3 any less of a violation of the Apple EULA than running it on an Intel or AMD machine i.e. a ( non- Apple ) PC? Even that running under emulation? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 7, 2009, at 10:45 PM, Mullin9 wrote: Some one did it, it is on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cEkebFzlgQ Running OS X in PearPC running on Linux hacked onto a PS3 Really isn't the same as loading OS X onto a modified PS3. Also I saw it on youtube doesn't really convey a whole lot of credence to the story. According to Youtube, my laptop will also convert into a robot. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLbJ8YPHwXMfmt=18 -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 8, 2009, at 7:26 AM, Liam Proven wrote: Incidentally, that is remarkable - the single most amateurish video I've yet to see on YouTube. The loud breathing, wobbly camera, poor focus, poor lighting. Impressively bad. :¬) Well if you're completely faking it, Blair Witch Style is one way to go. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 7, 2009, at 8:27 PM, Bruce Johnson wrote: On Jul 7, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Liam Proven wrote: One thing Sun could assemble, fairly readily, would be a killer large-enterprise messaging solution. A far more scalable back-end server than Exchange, coupled via an instant-push-delivery protocol to a premium-grade client app. This would not actually be hard to do, but nobody's ever done it. Well, LarryCo better get cracking on it, because this is exactly the market that has Google's giant glowing red laser sight dot on it. They're pushing hard into the enterprise messaging market with Gmail/ Calendar/Apps, etcwe're looking at them for the University email and calendaring stuff. It's going to be approximately a third of the cost of just licensing and machinery to run a campus-wide Exchange server, and this offloads a whole lot of support costs as well, not to mention things like Google paying the electric bill :-) (we're talking 40K accounts between students, faculty and staff, not an insignificant population) U dot! :P -sam formally s...@u.arizona.edu ;) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Was;Return to PowerPC?Now HackinSonyMac
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessiofluxstrin...@gmail.com wrote: But Nanny, how is running OS X on a Playstation 3 any less of a violation of the Apple EULA than running it on an Intel or AMD machine i.e. a ( non- Apple ) PC? Even that running under emulation? Or, I don't know, maybe because running OS X on a PS3 is just so freakin' unlikely to happen in any useful/meaningful/product threatening way that it qualifies for the Who really frickin' cares? exception? I think I remember seeing an article a long while ago about an exposure in one of the HD disc formats. Supposedly at that time you could grab screen shots and thus get a digital HD copy of a movie. Frame. By. Frickin'. Frame. The things some people will actually bother to worry about sometimes astounds me. -irrational ... even *I* think this is a stretch and I'm not really sane! ... john --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Was;Return to PowerPC?Now HackinSonyMac
On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 1:15 PM, iJohnzjboyguard-ggro...@yahoo.com wrote: On Wed, Jul 8, 2009 at 11:34 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessiofluxstrin...@gmail.com wrote: But Nanny, how is running OS X on a Playstation 3 any less of a violation of the Apple EULA than running it on an Intel or AMD machine i.e. a ( non- Apple ) PC? Even that running under emulation? Or, I don't know, maybe because running OS X on a PS3 is just so freakin' unlikely to happen in any useful/meaningful/product threatening way that it qualifies for the Who really frickin' cares? exception? I think I remember seeing an article a long while ago about an exposure in one of the HD disc formats. Supposedly at that time you could grab screen shots and thus get a digital HD copy of a movie. Frame. By. Frickin'. Frame. The things some people will actually bother to worry about sometimes astounds me. -irrational ... even *I* think this is a stretch and I'm not really sane! ... john --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ The guy indicated he was running a Compiz install configured to look like OS X. I am not concerned with that. although some have tottally missed that part of the video. My concern is that threads about running OS X on non PC hardware because of fear of Apple lawyers have been shut down. This PPC chip thread has turned into a discussion of running OS X on non-Apple hardware. To be consistent in applying the rules means that the maybe because running OS X on a PS3 is just so freakin' unlikely to happen in any useful/meaningful/product threatening way that it qualifies for the Who really frickin' cares? exception? is not only not a part of list rules but a rationalization for an anything goes attitude about LEM. A look at the long established list rules ,which we have all been reminded of recently by Dan the List Mom, will show that indeed the anything goes idea does not prevail here. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Was;Return to PowerPC?Now HackinSonyMac
On Jul 8, 2009, at 10:31 AM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote: My concern is that threads about running OS X on non PC hardware because of fear of Apple lawyers have been shut down. They were not shut down because of fear of Apple's lawyers, they were shut down because they were completely off-topic and degenerating into flame wars. The only topic on these lists that is ever shut down because of Apple Legal is direct linking to service manuals, which Apple, in it's infinite bewilderment, still doesn't want made public, even for long deprecated systems. Besides, we have much better guides at iFixit now, anyway. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Was;Return to PowerPC?Now HackinSonyMac
Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote: Recently other threads about violating the Apple EULA [snip] how is running OS X on a Playstation 3 any less of a violation of the Apple EULA than running it on an Intel or AMD machine i.e. a ( non- Apple ) PC? Even that running under emulation? MOL is not an emulator, it runs natively on POWER hardware. On ps3 its sort of a toy since it only has 256MB of RAM... probably limited to Jaguar X.2.8 etc. The PCI-X card is much more expensive and still only has 512MB which is still tight even for Tiger which is going away now. Although for some games maybe it is OK... The Power5+ Intellistation would be more interesting though, not for me as I need a laptop... Most people only use these to help them transition. Linux can mount mac disk images now and has always been able to access HFS disks so it is not so much an issue, I think as using a pc as a mac all the time. I think IBM engineers used to run MOL on their machines but they discourage it now. .. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On 7/7/09 1:59 AM, tortoise at cymraeg...@gmail.com wrote: It was true back then. Problem was all the old 68k code in the old MacOS. Here's the problem. When Spindler launched the PowerMacs, though icredible velocity was promised, the reality was that the machines were mere slow Quadra emulators that made one or another task more quickly than their predecessors. In fact, many people said the PowerMacs only completely surpassed the performance quality of the Quadras in 1997, when Mac OS 8 was released three years after the last Quadra was produced! The OS-chip harmony just came back in 1997/1998, when the G3s (designed intrernally to work with the Mac OS) substituted the 603s/604s and PowerPC-specific versions of the Mac OS (8.5 and 9) were released. But by that time the old Mac OS was already in the process of being substituted by the Mac OS X, with its completely different archicteture and paradigms. -- MaGioZal. http://magiozal.blogspot.com/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:59 PM, tortoise wrote: t was true back then. Problem was all the old 68k code in the old MacOS. Back in '98 a mac with Linux felt like flying compared to the macos crawling. The argument had absolutely nothing to do with the OS running on the system. The industry comparisons between RISC and CISC were made on the basis of assembler code. -- Bruce Johnson Wherever you go, there you are B. Banzai, PhD --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
t was true back then. Problem was all the old 68k code in the old MacOS. Back in '98 a mac with Linux felt like flying compared to the macos crawling. The argument had absolutely nothing to do with the OS running on the system. The industry comparisons between RISC and CISC were made on the basis of assembler code. -- Bruce Johnson Apple going back to PPC would be like Ford going back to starting-handles, manual advance-retard for the ignition, etc., etc. Apple are Intel-powered. Live with it. Nope, I'm not feeling superior, 'cos I've had my dual G5 2.0 for only 10 months, and it will be quite some time before bank-balance (and wife) permit the purchase of a Mac Pro. Ted --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
2009/7/7 tortoise cymraeg...@gmail.com: IBM had problems with their design which was why they teamed up with APPLE. at the time theirs was the worst performing and selling. Don't forget Motorola was in there too, coming in especially with the G4. IBM had problems? Not as I recall. POWER was doing great. PowerPC was merely an adaptation of the high-end POWER multi-chip processors into a lower-end single-chip device utilising the Motorola 88000 bus, designed for PC-type kit. The 680x0 was going nowhere, the 88000 was dead in the water, and both Apple Motorola needed something new. For IBM it was just a chance to get into another segment of the market. Sun and SGI always had the better designs in the 90s but pricey too. Nevertheless SGI cornered the movie business and Sun the web server market. The g5 got apple into the big time. But I think that they have blown it now. Intel centers on the lower end of the market now with their low power cpus. For high end machines clearly IBM and AMD excel. These are the cpus preferred by scientists and engineers -- they are not the same as the consumer versions admittedly but those benefit from this research. I know Bruce will argue with this but I am speaking statistically of course. AMD are really struggling now. The Sledgehammer µarch was stunning and killed Itanium; it moved the x86 world onto 64-bit, although 99% of machines still run 32-bit S/W, just like for a decade, 99% of the 32-bit 386 machines ran 16-bit S/W. But Intel turned on a dime - very impressive for such a large company - moved the Netburst µarch P4s onto x86-64 then released the really very good Core2 line based on the Pentium III (ergo, Pentium Pro) µarch. AMD retained a big lead in memory bandwidth through HyperTransport, but Intel has had a big edge in raw CPU power. Now, with Core i7 and soon Core i5, Intel is racing up on memory bandwidth too. And it's cleaning up at the low end with the Atom chip, too. Frankly, unless AMD pulls off a miracle, I think it's looking /very/ bad for it. Even Via's Nano has disappointed in the market. Perhaps an unholy AMD/Via/nVidia merger will happen, with very-lower-power-but-good-graphics ARM cores, low-power Via cores and some kind of hybrid-multicore CPU/GPU beast for the consumer market. It would be interesting, at least. Clearly apple is a consumer company. Although the video industry helps, many specialists have complained the intel macs are not so good for them as the g5 was. (Intel centric) Benchmarks aside, this is user experience. Even SSE4 can't match Altivec, it's true - at least from what I've heard - but few people really need SIMD instructions. They were a marketing ploy, a way to use extra CPU acreage. The real benefits came from growing onboard caches, not from all the SIMD stuff. By the way they have POWER5+ intellistations on closeout for $5000. 2x2ghz dual core, 4GB RAM, 32MB Cache on-chip, dual SCSI drives, and free monitor. (G5 is Power4). No OS. Put Linux on and run Leopard with MOL. Sounds nice! I always wished IBM did a deal and ported OS X Server to its POWER servers. Apple once sold AIX boxes; I see no reason a reverse deal couldn't have worked. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
2009/7/6 PeterH peterh5...@rattlebrain.com: On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:27 PM, MaGioZal wrote: The RISC had a lot of promises, but many times hadn't delivered them. It's not the processor, it's the implementation. IBM is making huge quantities of PPC RISCs. Sun is still making its RISCs. Well, true, but for how long under Oracle's reign? I wouldn't bet on it. At best, SPARC will be offloaded to Fujitsu or spun out. Intel's CISCs are doing well. To say the least. But one might point out that in a sense, the modern Core2/i5/i7 etc. chips, all derivatives of the Pentium Pro, are in a way superscalar chips that actually run RISC micro-ops underneath, merely with on-the-fly translation from x86 into µops. And, perhaps the oldest architecture in continuous use, the IBM System/360/370/390 (also called z/System), also a CISC, is now in its 45-th year, and shows no signs of being gone any time soon. IBM is a little cagey on this but aren't the modern z9 CPUs based in some way on POWER? -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
2009/7/6 PeterH peterh5...@rattlebrain.com: On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:49 PM, Mullin9 wrote: Will Apple return to PPC processors? A year or so ago, Apple purchased a fab-less designer and manufacturer of multi-core PPC processors. It is conceivable that Apple may use PPC processors in some future products, but the investment in Intel-based products for the desktop and laptop has been high, and has been largely successful. Snow Leopard will NOT be a universal system: it will be Intel only; so a return to PPC is not bloody likely for MacOS, ever. However another product which is based upon PPC, or another processor which can make effective use of the power-saving technology which was acquired in that Apple purchase of a PPC company seems likely. Perhaps a set-top box or a hand-held box? No, I still don't believe it. The costs of keeping OS X current on 3 architectures - x86, ARM *and* PowerPC - would outweigh the hypothetical benefits of PPC. I think PAsemi's strengths lie in fast multicore RISC. I think the ARM has lots of potential that current implementations, aimed mostly at cellphones, aren't exploiting. I suspect Apple will turn PAsemi over to making very fast, maybe multi-gigahertz, multicore ARM chips. Things that can scream along on mains power and also tick along on a tenth of a Watt when you're on batteries. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
2009/7/7 Mullin9 ddavidmul...@inbox.com: OOPS I grabbed a PS3 but Swapped the 256MB RAM, with 4 GB RAM stick, wired/ soldered in a 2005 Apple ROM not the EFI, and installed OS X v 10.5 and with 3.2 GHz PPC Cell CPU It Screams. Nope, I don't believe it. I don't believe you could readily adapt Apple's firmware to a PS3. I don't see much point - OS X on PPC is dead, anyway. And finally, Cell isn't /that/ quick - SP-to-RAM access is dismal, in particular - OS X couldn't use the SPs anyway. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
P.A. Semi's flagship product before they were acquired was the PWRficient processor, a PPC dual-core 2.0GHz processor that only consumed 4W power. I even contacted them for information on an evaluation kit (too bad it was $1495!) The PowerPC and POWER lines will live on - I'm just hoping Apple will still be part of the PowerPC program, even in an embedded market... On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 9:14 AM, Liam Provenlpro...@gmail.com wrote: I think PAsemi's strengths lie in fast multicore RISC. I think the ARM has lots of potential that current implementations, aimed mostly at cellphones, aren't exploiting. I suspect Apple will turn PAsemi over to making very fast, maybe multi-gigahertz, multicore ARM chips. Things that can scream along on mains power and also tick along on a tenth of a Watt when you're on batteries. -- ' With the first link, the chain is forged. The first speech censured, the first thought forbidden, the first freedom denied, chains us all irrevocably.' Those words were uttered by Judge Aaron Satie as wisdom and warning... The first time any man's freedom is trodden on we’re all damaged. - Jean-Luc Picard, quoting Judge Aaron Satie, Star Trek: TNG episode The Drumhead - Alex Smith (K4RNT) - Murfreesboro/Nashville, Tennessee USA --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
2009/7/7 Alex Smith (K4RNT) shadowhun...@gmail.com: P.A. Semi's flagship product before they were acquired was the PWRficient processor, a PPC dual-core 2.0GHz processor that only consumed 4W power. I know. Thus my comment. I even contacted them for information on an evaluation kit (too bad it was $1495!) Owww... The PowerPC and POWER lines will live on - I'm just hoping Apple will still be part of the PowerPC program, even in an embedded market... POWER is fine for now. Few people seem to have registered that, along with the divestment of the laptop desktop lines to Lenovo a few years back, IBM has done the same with x86 servers more recently. PowerPC, though? Specialised chips in consoles, maybe, but they're not really PPC. In battery-powered roles, it's being outcompeted and outperformed by ARM. Perhaps in the embedded market, but if so, we'll never see them, and that is /so/ not Apple's playground. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Liam Provenlpro...@gmail.com wrote: AMD are really struggling now. The Sledgehammer µarch was stunning and killed Itanium; it moved the x86 world onto 64-bit, although 99% of machines still run 32-bit S/W, just like for a decade, 99% of the 32-bit 386 machines ran 16-bit S/W. I assume you're using 99% in a wave your hands sort of way. I very much doubt that only 1% or less of the market is Apple Intel systems which I would consider to be essentially 64-bit in many respects now. And when a majority of those system move to Snow Leopard which seems likely given Apple's aggressive pricing ... they will probably be as 64-bit as you're going to get a system with an x86-64 processor to be. I'm not sure what the thinking is over at Microsoft, but it looks as though they're also moving in that direction. The Windows 7 install media will apparently contain *both* the 32-bit and 64-bit versions of Windows. They won't be sold separately any longer. None of this will immediately change the fact that a majority of the x86-64 systems out there will *still* be running in 32-bit mode. I'm just saying that a lot more than 1% of them will move to 64-bit mode. It took a long time to build up momentum, but I think from this point on the switch over is only going to move faster. -irrational john --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 7, 2009, at 7:00 AM, Liam Proven wrote: Well, true, but for how long under Oracle's reign? A while I'd think. This was a valuable part of Sun to Oracle, (they bought Sun because Oracle is completely dependent on Java now, and has been since the 8i-9 transition, this way they control that bit.) LOTS of big-iron Oracle databases run on Sun clusters. This way they can sell the whole widget: an industrial-sized Oracle appliance. Plus Sun was dirt-cheap. (I laugh, thinking back to the days when all the pundits were breathlessly suggesting that Sun buy Apple.) I'm more concerned about all the OSS that Sun was nurturing: VirtualBox, OpenOffice, Java, etc. Unless Oracle's looking to take a run at the utopian dream of the thin client, and take on Microsoft in Microsoft's home court, I suspect those things will eventually be spun off, or simply dropped off outside Sourceforge, with a note attached Please take care of this orphaned Open Source. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 7, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote: IBM had problems? Not as I recall. POWER was doing great. PowerPC was merely an adaptation of the high-end POWER multi-chip processors into a lower-end single-chip device utilising the Motorola 88000 bus, designed for PC-type kit. IBM never managed a low power G5, and Moro couldn't get more performance outof the PPC series. Apple (along with all the other PC manufacturers) live and die by their laptop lines, and the inability of either Moto or IBM to deliver low power, high performance chips suited for laptops was strangling Apple there. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
Bruce Johnson wrote: On Jul 7, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote: IBM had problems? Not as I recall. POWER was doing great. PowerPC was merely an adaptation of the high-end POWER multi-chip processors into a lower-end single-chip device utilising the Motorola 88000 bus, designed for PC-type kit. IBM never managed a low power G5, and Moro couldn't get more performance outof the PPC series. Apple (along with all the other PC manufacturers) live and die by their laptop lines, and the inability of either Moto or IBM to deliver low power, high performance chips suited for laptops was strangling Apple there. And here we have the story. IBM never manage much well as regards the PPC alliance. Motorola had problems as well despite spending a couple of billion on a new fab here in Austin to produce 'em. Bottom line was the lack of fast low power chips for laptops that ultimately resulted in the switch. Had a low power G5 chip been produced, there would be no Apple Intel today. My dealings with IBM always showed this company to be inflexible which in turn often results in a lack of innovation, two qualities that can seriously alter end results. But we can discuss this to death and it won't change anything. S, I'll just keep on truckin' with my ancient G4 Gigabit 400... JT (Who wonders at times why not hook up the 1.25GHz Powerbook to use as a main machine) sigh --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
But we can discuss this to death and it won't change anything. S, I'll just keep on truckin' with my ancient G4 Gigabit 400... JT (Who wonders at times why not hook up the 1.25GHz Powerbook to use as a main machine) I decided on a processor upgrade for my QS, 1.8ghz. Buys me a few more years before I finally go intel at home.have a 1.5GHz powerbook as well, got it from work to 'work from home after hours' yeah my wife surfs the web on it and I use the QS if i have to work from home heh. -sam --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [G3-5]Re: Return to PowerPC?
On 7/7/09 1:56 PM, Bruce Johnson at john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote: This was a valuable part of Sun to Oracle, (they bought Sun because Oracle is completely dependent on Java now, and has been since the 8i-9 transition, this way they control that bit.) It is strangely funny to remember that back in 1996 we heard that Sun would buy Apple... -- MaGioZal. http://flickr.com/photos/magiozal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [G3-5]Re: Return to PowerPC?
On 7/7/09 3:57 PM, James E. Therrault at jetas...@worldnet.att.net wrote: Bottom line was the lack of fast low power chips for laptops that ultimately resulted in the switch. Had a low power G5 chip been produced, there would be no Apple Intel today. The other thing that burned the marketing image of IBM-Mororola-Apple was the GHz Chip race. When all the PC market was proudly announcing 1GHz computers, Apple for a relatively long time had to conform to the duo-processed 600MHz Macs. -- MaGioZal. http://flickr.com/photos/magiozal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [G3-5]Re: Return to PowerPC?
On 7/7/09 1:58 PM, Bruce Johnson at john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu wrote: IBM never managed a low power G5, and Moro couldn't get more performance outof the PPC series. Apple (along with all the other PC manufacturers) live and die by their laptop lines, and the inability of either Moto or IBM to deliver low power, high performance chips suited for laptops was strangling Apple there. Well, my next computer will be an Apple notebook -- I'm just waiting for the pre-installed-Snow-Leopard series to be introduced. -- MaGioZal. http://fotolog.com/_magiozal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
2009/7/7 John Martz zjo...@gmail.com: On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 10:10 AM, Liam Provenlpro...@gmail.com wrote: AMD are really struggling now. The Sledgehammer µarch was stunning and killed Itanium; it moved the x86 world onto 64-bit, although 99% of machines still run 32-bit S/W, just like for a decade, 99% of the 32-bit 386 machines ran 16-bit S/W. I assume you're using 99% in a wave your hands sort of way. [...] None of this will immediately change the fact that a majority of the x86-64 systems out there will *still* be running in 32-bit mode. I'm just saying that a lot more than 1% of them will move to 64-bit mode. All right, it's a fair cop. Perhaps 90-95% might have been a more reasonable guesstimate. Although I would note that OS X86 is essentially a 32-bit OS with extensions to provide the facility to run 64-bit apps, which is actually quite a sensible way of doing things... It took a long time to build up momentum, but I think from this point on the switch over is only going to move faster. Probably, yes. If only to allow personal computers to simply and easily access 4GB of RAM. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
2009/7/7 Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu: On Jul 7, 2009, at 7:00 AM, Liam Proven wrote: Well, true, but for how long under Oracle's reign? A while I'd think. This was a valuable part of Sun to Oracle, (they bought Sun because Oracle is completely dependent on Java now, and has been since the 8i-9 transition, this way they control that bit.) LOTS of big-iron Oracle databases run on Sun clusters. This way they can sell the whole widget: an industrial-sized Oracle appliance. Personally, I think Sun's /hardware/ was wanted will be valuable to Oracle. But remember that Sun also makes AMD and Intel x86-64 kit. I reckon /that/ is what the new owners will be interested in. SPARC doesn't offer a significant performance boost now unless your apps need lots of threads, where the Niagara chips have a distinct edge - for now. But that kind of code is fairly rare. Plus Sun was dirt-cheap. (I laugh, thinking back to the days when all the pundits were breathlessly suggesting that Sun buy Apple.) Indeed. Very sad. I'm more concerned about all the OSS that Sun was nurturing: VirtualBox, OpenOffice, Java, etc. Unless Oracle's looking to take a run at the utopian dream of the thin client, and take on Microsoft in Microsoft's home court, I suspect those things will eventually be spun off, or simply dropped off outside Sourceforge, with a note attached Please take care of this orphaned Open Source. Good point; I agree. I think Larry Ellison /really/ hates Gates Microsoft, and will do what he can to twist the knife, /so long as/ it doesn't cost him money or business. And FOSS is a useful anti-MS weapon. So they might well embrace it. I hope so, anyway. One thing Sun could assemble, fairly readily, would be a killer large-enterprise messaging solution. A far more scalable back-end server than Exchange, coupled via an instant-push-delivery protocol to a premium-grade client app. This would not actually be hard to do, but nobody's ever done it. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
2009/7/7 Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu: On Jul 7, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote: IBM had problems? Not as I recall. POWER was doing great. PowerPC was merely an adaptation of the high-end POWER multi-chip processors into a lower-end single-chip device utilising the Motorola 88000 bus, designed for PC-type kit. IBM never managed a low power G5, and Moro couldn't get more performance outof the PPC series. Apple (along with all the other PC manufacturers) live and die by their laptop lines, and the inability of either Moto or IBM to deliver low power, high performance chips suited for laptops was strangling Apple there. I presume that the first Moro = Moto? Well, the thing is, there I was talking about the genesis of the PowerPC in the early 1990s and you're talking about its effective end in the mid-noughties. The problems that caused its creation were unrelated to those that caused its demise. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
i am writing this from a power pc g4 1.67 watching a 720p alexandare... yes i need pause it for writing this. i can listen moby's last album in last version of itunes... i am running a 10.5.7 with 2 GB ram... yes i am running with actual production machine for home with CS4 series... with only 5200 rpm drive... yes it is a powerbook G4 in his 4 years... think about 4 years old Windows with Intel... what they can use now? 2009/7/8 Liam Proven lpro...@gmail.com 2009/7/7 Bruce Johnson john...@pharmacy.arizona.edu: On Jul 7, 2009, at 7:10 AM, Liam Proven wrote: IBM had problems? Not as I recall. POWER was doing great. PowerPC was merely an adaptation of the high-end POWER multi-chip processors into a lower-end single-chip device utilising the Motorola 88000 bus, designed for PC-type kit. IBM never managed a low power G5, and Moro couldn't get more performance outof the PPC series. Apple (along with all the other PC manufacturers) live and die by their laptop lines, and the inability of either Moto or IBM to deliver low power, high performance chips suited for laptops was strangling Apple there. I presume that the first Moro = Moto? Well, the thing is, there I was talking about the genesis of the PowerPC in the early 1990s and you're talking about its effective end in the mid-noughties. The problems that caused its creation were unrelated to those that caused its demise. -- Liam Proven • Profile: http://www.linkedin.com/in/liamproven Email: lpro...@cix.co.uk • GMail/GoogleTalk/Orkut: lpro...@gmail.com Tel: +44 20-8685-0498 • Cell: +44 7939-087884 • Fax: + 44 870-9151419 AOL/AIM/iChat/Yahoo/Skype: liamproven • LiveJournal/Twitter: lproven MSN: lpro...@hotmail.com • ICQ: 73187508 -- Baha Ata --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 7, 2009, at 5:09 PM, Liam Proven wrote: One thing Sun could assemble, fairly readily, would be a killer large-enterprise messaging solution. A far more scalable back-end server than Exchange, coupled via an instant-push-delivery protocol to a premium-grade client app. This would not actually be hard to do, but nobody's ever done it. Well, LarryCo better get cracking on it, because this is exactly the market that has Google's giant glowing red laser sight dot on it. They're pushing hard into the enterprise messaging market with Gmail/ Calendar/Apps, etcwe're looking at them for the University email and calendaring stuff. It's going to be approximately a third of the cost of just licensing and machinery to run a campus-wide Exchange server, and this offloads a whole lot of support costs as well, not to mention things like Google paying the electric bill :-) (we're talking 40K accounts between students, faculty and staff, not an insignificant population) Their API's are out there, too, to tie in local resources, like financial systems. (click a button in your accounts page, and it'll generate a report pushed out to your google docs folder for the rest of the office to see, that sort of thing.) Cisco is making noises about this, too, but mainly because 'cloud computing' has a solid core of network equipment throughout :-) -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [G3-5]Re: Return to PowerPC?
MaGioZal wrote: On 7/7/09 3:57 PM, James E. Therrault at jetas...@worldnet.att.net wrote: Bottom line was the lack of fast low power chips for laptops that ultimately resulted in the switch. Had a low power G5 chip been produced, there would be no Apple Intel today. The other thing that burned the marketing image of IBM-Mororola-Apple was the GHz Chip race. When all the PC market was proudly announcing 1GHz computers, Apple for a relatively long time had to conform to the duo-processed 600MHz Macs. I remember when IBM was running an (I believe) experimental PPC chip at 1GHz in 1995. Problem was that very often, IBM could not get things out of the research lab purely due to bureaucracy and infrastructure. JT --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 7, 6:17 am, Liam Proven lpro...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/7/7 Mullin9 ddavidmul...@inbox.com: OOPS I grabbed a PS3 but Swapped the 256MB RAM, with 4 GB RAM stick, wired/ soldered in a 2005 Apple ROM not the EFI, and installed OS X v 10.5 and with 3.2 GHz PPC Cell CPU It Screams. Nope, I don't believe it. I don't believe you could readily adapt Apple's firmware to a PS3. I don't see much point - OS X on PPC is dead, anyway. And finally, Cell isn't /that/ quick - SP-to-RAM access is dismal, in particular - OS X couldn't use the SPs anyway. --I admit it the Cell CPU is a different PPC, than the G5, and the PS3/Mac ROM mixture didn't work right, no more than a G5 loaded with a 10.5 from a Mac X86. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 7, 7:17 am, Liam Proven lpro...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/7/7 Mullin9 ddavidmul...@inbox.com: OOPS I grabbed a PS3 but Swapped the 256MB RAM, with 4 GB RAM stick, wired/ soldered in a 2005 Apple ROM not the EFI, and installed OS X v 10.5 and with 3.2 GHz PPC Cell CPU It Screams. Nope, I don't believe it. I don't believe you could readily adapt Apple's firmware to a PS3. I don't see much point - OS X on PPC is dead, anyway. And finally, Cell isn't /that/ quick - SP-to-RAM access is dismal, in particular - OS X couldn't use the SPs anyway. OOPS I though I could fit the ROM to PS3, and give it more RAM, It didn't work like I expected it would, I wanted to Make a Faster-than-G5 PPC Computer, it was a dud. too mismatched to work at all --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 7, 7:17 am, Liam Proven lpro...@gmail.com wrote: 2009/7/7 Mullin9 ddavidmul...@inbox.com: OOPS I grabbed a PS3 but Swapped the 256MB RAM, with 4 GB RAM stick, wired/ soldered in a 2005 Apple ROM not the EFI, and installed OS X v 10.5 and with 3.2 GHz PPC Cell CPU It Screams. Nope, I don't believe it. I don't believe you could readily adapt Apple's firmware to a PS3. I don't see much point - OS X on PPC is dead, anyway. And finally, Cell isn't /that/ quick - SP-to-RAM access is dismal, in particular - OS X couldn't use the SPs anyway. Some one did it, it is on youtube http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2cEkebFzlgQ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [G3-5]Re: Return to PowerPC?
On 7/6/09 2:52 AM, PeterH at peterh5...@rattlebrain.com wrote: On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:27 PM, MaGioZal wrote: The RISC had a lot of promises, but many times hadn't delivered them. It's not the processor, it's the implementation. IBM is making huge quantities of PPC RISCs. Sun is still making its RISCs. Intel's CISCs are doing well. Well, maybe I should write Apple made a lot of promises about the RISC, but didn't delivered many of them. ;-) I remember back in the 90's that in the Spindler era the CISC was accused of being an obsolte chip archicteture which cannot expand well, differently from RISC... -- MaGioZal. http://magiozal.blogspot.com/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: [G3-5]Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 5, 2009, at 11:36 PM, MaGioZal wrote: Well, maybe I should write Apple made a lot of promises about the RISC, but didn't delivered many of them. ;-) At the risk of restarting the flamewars...it wasn't Apple that didn't deliver. Apple's promises were real, and the RISC design could deliver them, but when your chip suppliers see you as a minor side business taking third or fourth priority to your 'real' business, well, your chip suppliers tend to treat you like shit. After all, their thinking went, where are you going to go? It's not (HA!) like you'll make ANOTHER major change in your strategy, Apple's committed to the PPC platform, right? It'd be far too disruptive to their entire product line to switchlook how long it took them to switch from 68K to PPC and those were similar architectures! I remember back in the 90's that in the Spindler era the CISC was accused of being an obsolte chip archicteture which cannot expand well, differently from RISC... Well, true, as it stood then, (in particular, the aging 8086-80486 design) it couldn't. What happened is that Intel adapted a number of RISC-like features into their CISC designs, which made them competitive. Then they made significant breakthroughs in getting smaller and smaller (hence lower and lower power) device sizes. Intel's modern chips are really hybrids of the two design strategies. -- Bruce Johnson University of Arizona College of Pharmacy Information Technology Group Institutions do not have opinions, merely customs --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 5, 11:36 pm, MaGioZal magio...@gmail.com wrote: On 7/6/09 2:52 AM, PeterH at peterh5...@rattlebrain.com wrote: On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:27 PM, MaGioZal wrote: The RISC had a lot of promises, but many times hadn't delivered them. IBM had problems with their design which was why they teamed up with APPLE. at the time theirs was the worst performing and selling. Don't forget Motorola was in there too, coming in especially with the G4. Sun and SGI always had the better designs in the 90s but pricey too. Nevertheless SGI cornered the movie business and Sun the web server market. The g5 got apple into the big time. But I think that they have blown it now. Intel centers on the lower end of the market now with their low power cpus. For high end machines clearly IBM and AMD excel. These are the cpus preferred by scientists and engineers -- they are not the same as the consumer versions admittedly but those benefit from this research. I know Bruce will argue with this but I am speaking statistically of course. Clearly apple is a consumer company. Although the video industry helps, many specialists have complained the intel macs are not so good for them as the g5 was. (Intel centric) Benchmarks aside, this is user experience. It's not the processor, it's the implementation. Its an old story in the computer industry -- once you finally get something working right its time to abandon the manufacture (except for the embedded systems I guess). Finally in the last few years we have seen altivec based libraries for c and c++ and in gcc4.3 the auto generated code really took off. (unfortunately apple is still getting into gcc4.2). When I get the time I would like to rebuild a linux system from scratch optimized for altivec... IBM is making huge quantities of PPC RISCs. gaming consoles, selling a million a month. (and other things). IBM also sells intel based machines, but their POWER are their best. By the way they have POWER5+ intellistations on closeout for $5000. 2x2ghz dual core, 4GB RAM, 32MB Cache on-chip, dual SCSI drives, and free monitor. (G5 is Power4). No OS. Put Linux on and run Leopard with MOL. Or you can try it on a PS3 except I don't think the RAM capacity suffices. Sun is still making its RISCs. and also intel, they make both. Intel's CISCs are doing well. Well, maybe I should write Apple made a lot of promises about the RISC, but didn't delivered many of them. ;-) I remember back in the 90's that in the Spindler era the CISC was accused of being an obsolte chip archicteture which cannot expand well, differently from RISC... It was true back then. Problem was all the old 68k code in the old MacOS. Back in '98 a mac with Linux felt like flying compared to the macos crawling. IBM was like I said at the bottom of the RISC mfgs. Motorolla had many delays in their 68060 development and they really needed the g4 business. Even today a dual g4 can be as good or better performer as intel dual core in certain applications (such as with g4 upgrades versus current mini/ imac models = clunky consumer junk) --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 5, 10:27 pm, MaGioZal magio...@gmail.com wrote: On 7/6/09 2:19 AM, PeterH at peterh5...@rattlebrain.com wrote: However another product which is based upon PPC, or another processor which can make effective use of the power-saving technology which was acquired in that Apple purchase of a PPC company seems likely. And we must admit now: the 1994-2006 PowerPC era was the most turbulent of Apple's history. The RISC had a lot of promises, but many times hadn't delivered them. I was Promised a G5 running at 3+ GHz, but my Fastest PPC tower is 2.7GHz DP, I had to settle for a G4 PowerBook 1.67GHZ, for the lack of any G5 PowerBook. But my 4-Core Mac Pro is 3.2 GHz, and my Book is 2.25 GHz, though they are not PPC. MaGioZal. http://flickr.com/photos/magiozal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 6, 2009, at 9:59 PM, tortoise wrote: For high end machines clearly IBM and AMD excel. These are the cpus preferred by scientists and engineers -- they are not the same as the consumer versions admittedly but those benefit from this research. The go to machine for upper-upper-end scientific work, particularly nuclear bomb simulation, is a PPC with 131,072 cores. Clusters of Intel architecture machines are now affordable for electrical and mechanical engineering consultants, where perhaps 64 Intel PCs may be clustered, often using Lawrence Livermore National Labs' clustering software. Of course, these many to massively paralleled configurations are possible only with good split and join additions to compilers and other tools. In one split and join test of a significant note, 64 specialized database processors ... made by a certain database software manufacturer up the Peninsula ... were arrayed and accessed a certain database of financial data. A competitive system was configured using the very same data, but using a single Amdahl S/390 processor, and IBM's DB, not that other database software. The single Amdahl database processor beat the 64-way database processor in every test case. Naturally, that 64-way processor later showed up at Weird Stuff Warehouse, where it was sold for scrap value. Actually, it was only crap value which that system ever possessed. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
By the way they have POWER5+ intellistations on closeout for $5000. 2x2ghz dual core, 4GB RAM, 32MB Cache on-chip, dual SCSI drives, and free monitor. (G5 is Power4). No OS. Put Linux on and run Leopard with MOL. Or you can try it on a PS3 except I don't think the RAM capacity suffices. I grabbed a PS3 but Swapped the 256MB RAM, with 4 GB RAM stick, wired/ soldered in an EFI Chip, and installed OS X v 10.5 and with 3.2 GHz PPC Cell CPU It Screams. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:59 AM, tortoisecymraeg...@gmail.com wrote: Clearly apple is a consumer company. Although the video industry helps, many specialists have complained the intel macs are not so good for them as the g5 was. (Intel centric) Benchmarks aside, this is user experience. Can you quote some examples of this or cite what the differences are? There is a common perception that the Intel Macs are way faster and more capable than the G5s of any spec. Are you saying specific G5s are faster or more stable than Intel Macs? This has been of concern on another list I am on where there is a discussion of the G5s being locked out of the Snow Leopard upgrade and what this will mean for those pros using G5s. Even today a dual g4 can be as good or better performer as intel dual core in certain applications (such as with g4 upgrades versus current mini/ imac models = clunky consumer junk) That seems to go against the evidence of LEM machine profile bench marks. adrian --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
OOPS I grabbed a PS3 but Swapped the 256MB RAM, with 4 GB RAM stick, wired/ soldered in a 2005 Apple ROM not the EFI, and installed OS X v 10.5 and with 3.2 GHz PPC Cell CPU It Screams. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 6, 2009, at 10:28 PM, Wallace Adrian D'Alessio wrote: Even today a dual g4 can be as good or better performer as intel dual core in certain applications (such as with g4 upgrades versus current mini/ imac models = clunky consumer junk) That seems to go against the evidence of LEM machine profile bench marks. And against the evidence of actual commercial work, where a modest C2D Intel Hackintosh can perform a DVD authoring step (producing a playable DVD from .VOB files) in 12.5 minutes, whereas a reasonably fast dual G4 takes about 60 minutes. Needless to say, a 4.8-to-1 advantage in favor of Hackintosh computing resulted in this operator converting all his commercial work over to Hackintoshes. Now, I have only one G4 left operating, and it runs Mail.app and Classic. http://groups.google.com/group/hq-a + A home for the Hackintosh community. To subscribe to the HQ-A group, send email to hq-a +subscr...@googlegroups.com --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
Howdy, Now this actually might be possible. I read the prior message and thought is was just a joke(You can't tack on EFI like that). Is this for real? The PPC processors on the PS3 are not feature complete CPUs, but there are multiple CPUs. It might make the PS3 useful for something. I don't play games and would never buy a BlueRay disk because of the particularly nasty DRM. I made a XBOX into a useful machine. If this is real, maybe I can do the same to a PS3 in a few years. Good day, Ralph On Mon, 2009-07-06 at 22:35 -0700, Mullin9 wrote: OOPS I grabbed a PS3 but Swapped the 256MB RAM, with 4 GB RAM stick, wired/ soldered in a 2005 Apple ROM not the EFI, and installed OS X v 10.5 and with 3.2 GHz PPC Cell CPU It Screams. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Return to PowerPC?
Will Apple return to PPC processors? I experienced smoother Game Graphics on a 2 GHz G5 Mac with 256 MB of VRAM, than I had on a 2 GHz Intel Mac, with 256 MB of VRAM, both my Macs have 2 GB of RAM. thanks --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 12:49 AM, Mullin9ddavidmul...@inbox.com wrote: Will Apple return to PPC processors? I experienced smoother Game Graphics on a 2 GHz G5 Mac with 256 MB of VRAM, than I had on a 2 GHz Intel Mac, with 256 MB of VRAM, both my Macs have 2 GB of RAM. Could you provide a little more detail? Which Intel Mac were you using? What did it use for video? -irrational john --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 5, 2009, at 9:49 PM, Mullin9 wrote: Will Apple return to PPC processors? A year or so ago, Apple purchased a fab-less designer and manufacturer of multi-core PPC processors. It is conceivable that Apple may use PPC processors in some future products, but the investment in Intel-based products for the desktop and laptop has been high, and has been largely successful. Snow Leopard will NOT be a universal system: it will be Intel only; so a return to PPC is not bloody likely for MacOS, ever. However another product which is based upon PPC, or another processor which can make effective use of the power-saving technology which was acquired in that Apple purchase of a PPC company seems likely. Perhaps a set-top box or a hand-held box? --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 12:49 AM, Mullin9ddavidmul...@inbox.com wrote: Will Apple return to PPC processors? I experienced smoother Game Graphics on a 2 GHz G5 Mac with 256 MB of VRAM, than I had on a 2 GHz Intel Mac, with 256 MB of VRAM, both my Macs have 2 GB of RAM. That is near impossible, they would have to un-PO partners like IBM. And even more impossible backtrack on Snow:eopard. Reverse policy? No way! --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On 7/6/09 2:19 AM, PeterH at peterh5...@rattlebrain.com wrote: However another product which is based upon PPC, or another processor which can make effective use of the power-saving technology which was acquired in that Apple purchase of a PPC company seems likely. And we must admit now: the 1994-2006 PowerPC era was the most turbulent of Apple's history. The RISC had a lot of promises, but many times hadn't delivered them. -- MaGioZal. http://flickr.com/photos/magiozal/ --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
Re: Return to PowerPC?
On Jul 5, 2009, at 10:27 PM, MaGioZal wrote: The RISC had a lot of promises, but many times hadn't delivered them. It's not the processor, it's the implementation. IBM is making huge quantities of PPC RISCs. Sun is still making its RISCs. Intel's CISCs are doing well. And, perhaps the oldest architecture in continuous use, the IBM System/360/370/390 (also called z/System), also a CISC, is now in its 45-th year, and shows no signs of being gone any time soon. --~--~-~--~~~---~--~~ You received this message because you are subscribed Low End Mac's G3-5 List, a group for those using G3, G4, and G5 desktop Macs - with a particular focus on Power Macs. The list FAQ is at http://lowendmac.com/lists/g-list.shtml and our netiquette guide is at http://www.lowendmac.com/lists/netiquette.shtml To post to this group, send email to g3-5-list@googlegroups.com To unsubscribe from this group, send email to g3-5-list-unsubscr...@googlegroups.com For more options, visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/g3-5-list?hl=en Low End Mac RSS feed at feed://lowendmac.com/feed.xml -~--~~~~--~~--~--~---
