Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
I'm thinking of using online registration. Regards, Damien - Original Message - From: Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 8:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop Hi, I agree with Draconis. What I've seen is a Troopanum2 crack, yes. And is it hardware-based? I believe it was. I didn't use it, just... Gained information from jerks who pirate stuff. And Liam, there's stuff going around... My point is that I agree with you totally about hardware keys, don't use them! Pirates will get your game wether you like it or hate it, so there's no use in fighting it. On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:19:29 -0800, Draconis Entertainment wrote: The recent trend away from DRM in music downloads is a great illustration. The fact of the matter is simple. Is the loss of sales from pirates worth severely inconveniencing your loyal and dedicated customers? In the end, you are troubling far more of the honest folks than you are stopping dishonest ones. The music industry is learning the hard way. We believe that in producing keys the way we have, we're bolstering loyalty in our customers. We applaud Apple for the lack of activation required in the Mac OS X operating system, and their dedication to DRM-free music. Other music download sites are following suit. It is, for all the reasons above, and all of TOm's reasons below, the right thing to do. Draconis Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] Draconis Entertainment Feel the power...wield the magic... http://www.DraconisEntertainment.com http://www.DracoEnt.com On 20 Dec, 2007, at 6:36 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hello Che, Yes, XHEO is a very secure licensing library and product security system, but unfortunately I was unable to buy it before releasing Monte do to a lack of cash. I'm still thinking of buying it for future games, but I also know what customers have to put up with when using hardware based keys. For example, I have three computers in my house. I'd like to buy a game and install it on all of them. If it is hardware locked i either have to request new keys for each one or buy a copy for each computer which really isn't that fair or worth it. Also there is the issue about the developers ability to continue to give out new keys. Let's say i buy a game from developer x, he works alone, he gets seriously hurt in a car crash. i need a new key for reason x, but since the guy is in the hospital or maybe even dead I can't ever install that game again. That isn't exactly fair either, but the developer chose that root because some jerks were pirating his games, and the inocent customers have to pay the price. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
I kind of like that Internet License Manager thing Freedom Scientific uses. It seemds more secure than the authorization keys on the floppy disks. I know that if you can make an exact copy of the disk, you can get an authorization on any computer. FS products are probably still crackable, but it's probably harder now, which is good. The ILM thing they use now seems pretty reasonable as well, as you can request additional keys if you really need them. -- From: Thomas Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 6:00 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop Hi Michael, Yes, I have to agree with the point you raised just because there is a percentage of people who will crack your product doesn't mean a developer needs to be totally lax about security. On the other hand too much security can be a major turn off for some potential customers. So somewhere in between the two extremes there needs two be a balance where the product is reasonably secure but it doesn't become a frustrating nightmare for the end user. I've thought about a possible online product activation system where you could register the game so many times before the USA Games mysql database would need reset which would be somewhat fair. Say you could install the game 5 times a year before it mneeds reset. That would cut down on piracy, but again it would inconvenience the honest user if they don't have an internet connection or if they honestly need to install the game 5 times in one year which would seam unlikely. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
But what of those who don't have an internet connection? That leaves those people in the dust unless you make it possible to activate the product without having innernet access. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. - Original Message - From: Stefen Hudson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 22, 2007 4:38 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop I kind of like that Internet License Manager thing Freedom Scientific uses. It seemds more secure than the authorization keys on the floppy disks. I know that if you can make an exact copy of the disk, you can get an authorization on any computer. FS products are probably still crackable, but it's probably harder now, which is good. The ILM thing they use now seems pretty reasonable as well, as you can request additional keys if you really need them. -- From: Thomas Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 6:00 PM To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop Hi Michael, Yes, I have to agree with the point you raised just because there is a percentage of people who will crack your product doesn't mean a developer needs to be totally lax about security. On the other hand too much security can be a major turn off for some potential customers. So somewhere in between the two extremes there needs two be a balance where the product is reasonably secure but it doesn't become a frustrating nightmare for the end user. I've thought about a possible online product activation system where you could register the game so many times before the USA Games mysql database would need reset which would be somewhat fair. Say you could install the game 5 times a year before it mneeds reset. That would cut down on piracy, but again it would inconvenience the honest user if they don't have an internet connection or if they honestly need to install the game 5 times in one year which would seam unlikely. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Hi Daniel, I didn't say they talked about it on mailing lists, per say, it is just a well known fact that these cracked games get passed around by word of mouth and through private channels. Not to mention the information isn't that hard to come by if you know the right listers to ask. The Draconis games and my games have been designed to run on any machine provided you have a valid license so it is not a big surprise people are passing around valid keys as cracks. However, should I discover one of my keys being passed around I would know who gave out the key and could sue that person for piracy. Other games like the games built upon the GMA engine have been cracked through a vonerability in the GMA registration system. It isn't public knolege as far as I know, but I have tried the crack on my own licensed games to see if it worked and it cracked them every time. So I know it works, and it is sad people spend there entire life looking for security vonerabilities instead of working to pay for the games instead. Daniel wrote: Wow, Tom, they talk about this stuff on mailing lists? I agree with Che that he would put a lawyer to work, but piracy can't really be stopped. It's been proven dozens and dozens of times. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Hi Bryan, Yeah, I know all about how fical and tempermental computers can be. Earlier this week my copy of Vista died on my laptop and I was forced to spend three entire days recovering all my stuff, reinstalling Vista, apps, and getting my development tools reconfigured. In fact, I still haven't gotten back to Monte for that reason. Bryan wrote: True, but you never really know what's gonna happen from one minute to the next where computers are concerned. Yeah, most of the time you can backup your product codes and things like that but there needs to be a contingency on the off chance that your system crashes before you're able to do that. That's happened to me on several occasions, which is why I so like BSC's replaement policy. You get a certain number of codes per year for each title (four in BSC's case), which is generally enough to go on. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Che you have such a way with words! love it! Cory - Original Message - From: Che [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop Valid arguments, but I recently saw a list of pirated games a member of our list here had, and it was basically all the major accessible game titles. For me, protecting my intellectual property is worth the slight inconvenience to myself as a developer, and it only takes a few seconds to send out another key to a customer. Additionally, RR spits out a config file that allows players to move their settings from one key to another, a system that should work for any accessible game, greatly minimizing the aggrivation from the customers standpoint. For you folks on list that use and distribute pirated games, please take a second to consider the damage you are doing to the entire community, as well as the encentive you take away from developers to make new and exciting games for all of us. Your actions are absolutely selfish and ignorant, and you have no excuse other than you are a pinhead. Later, Che --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] __ NOD32 2682 (20071123) Information __ This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. http://www.eset.com --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Hi Bryan, Unfortunately, that is the downside of internet based product activation. Though, it is becoming allot more common commercially. I know Vista, Sound Forge, Omnipage, Jaws, etdc use online activation now, and it is becoming impossible to own and use a computer without online access unless you use free stuff like Linux. So a game developer choosing to use internet based product activation is probably not going to encounter allot of users with no internet access. Especially, if the users heard about it via Audyssey Magazine or the list. Bryan wrote: But what of those who don't have an internet connection? That leaves those people in the dust unless you make it possible to activate the product without having innernet access. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Hi, Well, there were other ways to crack Jaws besides replicating the authorisation disks, and one method is still open to a cracker if he or she knows assembly. A couple of years ago there was a cracked demo of Jaws floating around. The cracker disassembled the Jaws demo, turned off the timer, recompiled it, and suddenly you could download a demo that never timed out for free until the demo disappeared off the net. I'm pointing this out that no matter how good the security looks there is still probably someone who will find away to crack it. Jaws could have prevented that particular crack simply by running executible encryption on the exe files and dll files, but didn't. However, getting security tools for every possible type of crack is expensive. Stefen Hudson wrote: I kind of like that Internet License Manager thing Freedom Scientific uses. It seemds more secure than the authorization keys on the floppy disks. I know that if you can make an exact copy of the disk, you can get an authorization on any computer. FS products are probably still crackable, but it's probably harder now, which is good. The ILM thing they use now seems pretty reasonable as well, as you can request additional keys if you really need them. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
yeah thats true enough. My dad's system has been faithfull for a bit, and this week it started to show its age. Its a mishmash of bits and bobs and xp was part of it all. And well I think it may be about to croak, oh well, its the oldest system in the house, the last to be upgraded, so it makes sence I suppose. At 05:10 a.m. 23/12/2007, you wrote: Hi Bryan, Yeah, I know all about how fical and tempermental computers can be. Earlier this week my copy of Vista died on my laptop and I was forced to spend three entire days recovering all my stuff, reinstalling Vista, apps, and getting my development tools reconfigured. In fact, I still haven't gotten back to Monte for that reason. Bryan wrote: True, but you never really know what's gonna happen from one minute to the next where computers are concerned. Yeah, most of the time you can backup your product codes and things like that but there needs to be a contingency on the off chance that your system crashes before you're able to do that. That's happened to me on several occasions, which is why I so like BSC's replaement policy. You get a certain number of codes per year for each title (four in BSC's case), which is generally enough to go on. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
I think with recent trends in technology with people owning multiple computers, or machines that run an Os, hardware based keys may cause trouble in future, and not just for the customer. what happens when we all want keys for our desktop, laptop, and mobile phone. At the same time though, the piracy thing is a major issue given the size of the Ag markit. whatever people think about pirating stuff from the huge faceless coorporations of capitalistic doom who make insane amounts of prophit, it's quite different with small developers just trying to get by, particularly when we're all wanting them to continue working and make more games. Imho buying accessible games is a gesture of support for the hole Ag movement, not just handing over cash for something, and in the same spirit, I've donated cash to websites who do things I like as well, --- such as project aon, secret world chronicals, Sryth, and a few others. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Well said Dark. i fully intend to buy Monty at the first financial opportunity, which come to think of it may be soon. If my grandma is true to form and sends me some Christmas money I may treat myself. Then I think Sryth might be long overdue for a donation, especially what with the Christmas gift our GM is giving us. It's apparently something from Tallys. That much we do know. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. - Original Message - From: dark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 5:58 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop I think with recent trends in technology with people owning multiple computers, or machines that run an Os, hardware based keys may cause trouble in future, and not just for the customer. what happens when we all want keys for our desktop, laptop, and mobile phone. At the same time though, the piracy thing is a major issue given the size of the Ag markit. whatever people think about pirating stuff from the huge faceless coorporations of capitalistic doom who make insane amounts of prophit, it's quite different with small developers just trying to get by, particularly when we're all wanting them to continue working and make more games. Imho buying accessible games is a gesture of support for the hole Ag movement, not just handing over cash for something, and in the same spirit, I've donated cash to websites who do things I like as well, --- such as project aon, secret world chronicals, Sryth, and a few others. Beware the Grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Hi Che, I think your position is equally valid. I have seen similar lists of cracks for popular accessible games including discovered a crack for all the GMA Games and the PCS Games. All that piracy is going to do is make developers less interested in developing games, or strengthen security to a point it begins losing sales from honest customers. As a customer I hate hardware based keys, but as a developer I want my product safe. So it is a really really tough decision for me. As a developer it might not take us long to generate a new key for each user, but I think the person who suffers most is the honest customer. If I buy a new computer and have to order a new product key I am forced to wait for the new key based on the developers schedule. If the developer happens to be away on vacation, sick, whatever I will simply have to wait until I get my key. It might sound like impatients, but it is simply an added inconvenience that is often frustration for the honest user. In the end I think any developer faced with which product key system to use needs to be based on the two factors. A. Does the developer care about serving the honest customer with the easiest and most convenient gaming experience. B. Is the developers determination to prevent hacking so great as to risk customer convenience for security. I don't think either position is absolutely right or wrong, but I do know there needs to be some sort of balance between convenience and security. Che wrote: Valid arguments, but I recently saw a list of pirated games a member of our list here had, and it was basically all the major accessible game titles. For me, protecting my intellectual property is worth the slight inconvenience to myself as a developer, and it only takes a few seconds to send out another key to a customer. Additionally, RR spits out a config file that allows players to move their settings from one key to another, a system that should work for any accessible game, greatly minimizing the aggrivation from the customers standpoint. For you folks on list that use and distribute pirated games, please take a second to consider the damage you are doing to the entire community, as well as the encentive you take away from developers to make new and exciting games for all of us. Your actions are absolutely selfish and ignorant, and you have no excuse other than you are a pinhead. Later, Che --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Hi, One thing to keep in mind is that crackers have a mind set if they can't crack it they don't want it sort of attitude. So Either way you look at it you are not going to get that sale weather you have great security or poor security. The only major diference is that poor security makes it easier for non-crackers to get free copies of a game. Which sadly I have spoken to my share of blind gamers who feel they are entitled to free copies of games because they can't afford it. One final note, a developer must always keep in mind there is no such thing as 100% security on any product. Anything that man can create another man with some determination can crack. That is the truth, and has happened time and time and time again. In the end the customers should be held in higher value than the jerks, crackers, and low lifes cracking software. I just recently finished a book called The Art Of Intrusion. All of the cracker cases in the book ar true, and you wouldn't believe the depths some of these low lifes will go to in order to break into banks, government files, the white house main frame, and even crack the Vagus slot machines for the fun of it. Terrifying indeed, but it happens every day 24/7. Draconis Entertainment wrote: The recent trend away from DRM in music downloads is a great illustration. The fact of the matter is simple. Is the loss of sales from pirates worth severely inconveniencing your loyal and dedicated customers? In the end, you are troubling far more of the honest folks than you are stopping dishonest ones. The music industry is learning the hard way. We believe that in producing keys the way we have, we're bolstering loyalty in our customers. We applaud Apple for the lack of activation required in the Mac OS X operating system, and their dedication to DRM-free music. Other music download sites are following suit. It is, for all the reasons above, and all of TOm's reasons below, the right thing to do. Draconis Entertainment --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Hi Bryan, As long as there are developers out there like Jim Kitchen who donates his games for free crackers won't kill the ag market, but they may discover companies who have games they want to play will close up shop and go elsewhere. Allot of developers, like myself, are just writing games for the fun of it. As a rule I'd probably give all my games away for free, but I can't afford to do that if I need to buy new tools, sounds, music, etc to make games equal to sighted games. That takes money and it doesn't hurt the comunity to give a little cash for the right of having my games which I hope to be above standard quality. Bryan wrote: I've been making that same argument myself. I mean if this keeps up we could very well kill the AG market. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
also, does anyone know if ubuntu linux is gaining popularity, and if there are games for it that we can play? - Original Message - From: Draconis Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 10:19 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop The recent trend away from DRM in music downloads is a great illustration. The fact of the matter is simple. Is the loss of sales from pirates worth severely inconveniencing your loyal and dedicated customers? In the end, you are troubling far more of the honest folks than you are stopping dishonest ones. The music industry is learning the hard way. We believe that in producing keys the way we have, we're bolstering loyalty in our customers. We applaud Apple for the lack of activation required in the Mac OS X operating system, and their dedication to DRM-free music. Other music download sites are following suit. It is, for all the reasons above, and all of TOm's reasons below, the right thing to do. Draconis Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] Draconis Entertainment Feel the power...wield the magic... http://www.DraconisEntertainment.com http://www.DracoEnt.com On 20 Dec, 2007, at 6:36 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hello Che, Yes, XHEO is a very secure licensing library and product security system, but unfortunately I was unable to buy it before releasing Monte do to a lack of cash. I'm still thinking of buying it for future games, but I also know what customers have to put up with when using hardware based keys. For example, I have three computers in my house. I'd like to buy a game and install it on all of them. If it is hardware locked i either have to request new keys for each one or buy a copy for each computer which really isn't that fair or worth it. Also there is the issue about the developers ability to continue to give out new keys. Let's say i buy a game from developer x, he works alone, he gets seriously hurt in a car crash. i need a new key for reason x, but since the guy is in the hospital or maybe even dead I can't ever install that game again. That isn't exactly fair either, but the developer chose that root because some jerks were pirating his games, and the inocent customers have to pay the price. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Wow, Tom, they talk about this stuff on mailing lists? I agree with Che that he would put a lawyer to work, but piracy can't really be stopped. It's been proven dozens and dozens of times. On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:24:43 -0500, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Che, I think your position is equally valid. I have seen similar lists of cracks for popular accessible games including discovered a crack for all the GMA Games and the PCS Games. All that piracy is going to do is make developers less interested in developing games, or strengthen security to a point it begins losing sales from honest customers. As a customer I hate hardware based keys, but as a developer I want my product safe. So it is a really really tough decision for me. As a developer it might not take us long to generate a new key for each user, but I think the person who suffers most is the honest customer. If I buy a new computer and have to order a new product key I am forced to wait for the new key based on the developers schedule. If the developer happens to be away on vacation, sick, whatever I will simply have to wait until I get my key. It might sound like impatients, but it is simply an added inconvenience that is often frustration for the honest user. In the end I think any developer faced with which product key system to use needs to be based on the two factors. A. Does the developer care about serving the honest customer with the easiest and most convenient gaming experience. B. Is the developers determination to prevent hacking so great as to risk customer convenience for security. I don't think either position is absolutely right or wrong, but I do know there needs to be some sort of balance between convenience and security. Che wrote: Valid arguments, but I recently saw a list of pirated games a member of our list here had, and it was basically all the major accessible game titles. For me, protecting my intellectual property is worth the slight inconvenience to myself as a developer, and it only takes a few seconds to send out another key to a customer. Additionally, RR spits out a config file that allows players to move their settings from one key to another, a system that should work for any accessible game, greatly minimizing the aggrivation from the customers standpoint. For you folks on list that use and distribute pirated games, please take a second to consider the damage you are doing to the entire community, as well as the encentive you take away from developers to make new and exciting games for all of us. Your actions are absolutely selfish and ignorant, and you have no excuse other than you are a pinhead. Later, Che --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
That's like saying that people will break into your house whether you like it or not so there's no use fighting it. Do you honestly think we shouldn't at least make it harder for people to commit criminal acts? Perhaps, I should just carry my credit card in a pocket instead of more securely in my wallet. Guess I don't really need to try to be responsable about keeping my credit card number safe if people will just steal it anyhow. Think about it. It has always been the case that people are expected to take reasonable precautions to protect themselves. The police are certainly there when they're needed but that's no excuse for utter stupidity. Persoanally, I'll always favour buying games where I get a registration key which will work on any machine. I have two computers in normal circumstances and don't see why I should shell out the bucks or have to wait for a replacement key if a hard drive crashes or something. I already bought the game. However, I can certainly understand the logic of the argument for these hardware based keys given current conditions. - Original Message - From: Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop Hi, I agree with Draconis. What I've seen is a Troopanum2 crack, yes. And is it hardware-based? I believe it was. I didn't use it, just... Gained information from jerks who pirate stuff. And Liam, there's stuff going around... My point is that I agree with you totally about hardware keys, don't use them! Pirates will get your game wether you like it or hate it, so there's no use in fighting it. On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:19:29 -0800, Draconis Entertainment wrote: The recent trend away from DRM in music downloads is a great illustration. The fact of the matter is simple. Is the loss of sales from pirates worth severely inconveniencing your loyal and dedicated customers? In the end, you are troubling far more of the honest folks than you are stopping dishonest ones. The music industry is learning the hard way. We believe that in producing keys the way we have, we're bolstering loyalty in our customers. We applaud Apple for the lack of activation required in the Mac OS X operating system, and their dedication to DRM-free music. Other music download sites are following suit. It is, for all the reasons above, and all of TOm's reasons below, the right thing to do. Draconis Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] Draconis Entertainment Feel the power...wield the magic... http://www.DraconisEntertainment.com http://www.DracoEnt.com On 20 Dec, 2007, at 6:36 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hello Che, Yes, XHEO is a very secure licensing library and product security system, but unfortunately I was unable to buy it before releasing Monte do to a lack of cash. I'm still thinking of buying it for future games, but I also know what customers have to put up with when using hardware based keys. For example, I have three computers in my house. I'd like to buy a game and install it on all of them. If it is hardware locked i either have to request new keys for each one or buy a copy for each computer which really isn't that fair or worth it. Also there is the issue about the developers ability to continue to give out new keys. Let's say i buy a game from developer x, he works alone, he gets seriously hurt in a car crash. i need a new key for reason x, but since the guy is in the hospital or maybe even dead I can't ever install that game again. That isn't exactly fair either, but the developer chose that root because some jerks were pirating his games, and the inocent customers have to pay the price. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Well, if the inconvenience to customers was a real problem I would have to rethink my strategy, but as I stated before, it has only been a small issue a handful of times, and a lot of thought went into making it as easy as possible for the customer if a hardware problem exists. I think as long as the customer feels they are getting value for their money, that is the most important thing, and at Blind Adrenaline as with most other accessible game companies, that is what we strive to do. Another note on this, because I control the only server that allows online racing, even if someone were to crack Rail Racer, they would not be able to race online, which is at least half the fun of the game. This is about as rock solid a piracy protection scheme as you can come up with. I will continue to use this model in the future as it has served me well so far, but I completely understand others reservations regarding a hardware based system. Later, Che - Original Message - From: Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 2:54 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop Wow, Tom, they talk about this stuff on mailing lists? I agree with Che that he would put a lawyer to work, but piracy can't really be stopped. It's been proven dozens and dozens of times. On Fri, 21 Dec 2007 11:24:43 -0500, Thomas Ward wrote: Hi Che, I think your position is equally valid. I have seen similar lists of cracks for popular accessible games including discovered a crack for all the GMA Games and the PCS Games. All that piracy is going to do is make developers less interested in developing games, or strengthen security to a point it begins losing sales from honest customers. As a customer I hate hardware based keys, but as a developer I want my product safe. So it is a really really tough decision for me. As a developer it might not take us long to generate a new key for each user, but I think the person who suffers most is the honest customer. If I buy a new computer and have to order a new product key I am forced to wait for the new key based on the developers schedule. If the developer happens to be away on vacation, sick, whatever I will simply have to wait until I get my key. It might sound like impatients, but it is simply an added inconvenience that is often frustration for the honest user. In the end I think any developer faced with which product key system to use needs to be based on the two factors. A. Does the developer care about serving the honest customer with the easiest and most convenient gaming experience. B. Is the developers determination to prevent hacking so great as to risk customer convenience for security. I don't think either position is absolutely right or wrong, but I do know there needs to be some sort of balance between convenience and security. Che wrote: Valid arguments, but I recently saw a list of pirated games a member of our list here had, and it was basically all the major accessible game titles. For me, protecting my intellectual property is worth the slight inconvenience to myself as a developer, and it only takes a few seconds to send out another key to a customer. Additionally, RR spits out a config file that allows players to move their settings from one key to another, a system that should work for any accessible game, greatly minimizing the aggrivation from the customers standpoint. For you folks on list that use and distribute pirated games, please take a second to consider the damage you are doing to the entire community, as well as the encentive you take away from developers to make new and exciting games for all of us. Your actions are absolutely selfish and ignorant, and you have no excuse other than you are a pinhead. Later, Che --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
awesome! Will have to find this book and check it out. sounds interesting. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 11:44 AM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop Hi, One thing to keep in mind is that crackers have a mind set if they can't crack it they don't want it sort of attitude. So Either way you look at it you are not going to get that sale weather you have great security or poor security. The only major diference is that poor security makes it easier for non-crackers to get free copies of a game. Which sadly I have spoken to my share of blind gamers who feel they are entitled to free copies of games because they can't afford it. One final note, a developer must always keep in mind there is no such thing as 100% security on any product. Anything that man can create another man with some determination can crack. That is the truth, and has happened time and time and time again. In the end the customers should be held in higher value than the jerks, crackers, and low lifes cracking software. I just recently finished a book called The Art Of Intrusion. All of the cracker cases in the book ar true, and you wouldn't believe the depths some of these low lifes will go to in order to break into banks, government files, the white house main frame, and even crack the Vagus slot machines for the fun of it. Terrifying indeed, but it happens every day 24/7. Draconis Entertainment wrote: The recent trend away from DRM in music downloads is a great illustration. The fact of the matter is simple. Is the loss of sales from pirates worth severely inconveniencing your loyal and dedicated customers? In the end, you are troubling far more of the honest folks than you are stopping dishonest ones. The music industry is learning the hard way. We believe that in producing keys the way we have, we're bolstering loyalty in our customers. We applaud Apple for the lack of activation required in the Mac OS X operating system, and their dedication to DRM-free music. Other music download sites are following suit. It is, for all the reasons above, and all of TOm's reasons below, the right thing to do. Draconis Entertainment --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- I am using the free version of SPAMfighter for private users. It has removed 1286 spam emails to date. Paying users do not have this message in their emails. Get the free SPAMfighter here: http://www.spamfighter.com/len --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Hi Michael, Yes, I have to agree with the point you raised just because there is a percentage of people who will crack your product doesn't mean a developer needs to be totally lax about security. On the other hand too much security can be a major turn off for some potential customers. So somewhere in between the two extremes there needs two be a balance where the product is reasonably secure but it doesn't become a frustrating nightmare for the end user. I've thought about a possible online product activation system where you could register the game so many times before the USA Games mysql database would need reset which would be somewhat fair. Say you could install the game 5 times a year before it mneeds reset. That would cut down on piracy, but again it would inconvenience the honest user if they don't have an internet connection or if they honestly need to install the game 5 times in one year which would seam unlikely. Michael Feir wrote: That's like saying that people will break into your house whether you like it or not so there's no use fighting it. Do you honestly think we shouldn't at least make it harder for people to commit criminal acts? Perhaps, I should just carry my credit card in a pocket instead of more securely in my wallet. Guess I don't really need to try to be responsable about keeping my credit card number safe if people will just steal it anyhow. Think about it. It has always been the case that people are expected to take reasonable precautions to protect themselves. The police are certainly there when they're needed but that's no excuse for utter stupidity. Persoanally, I'll always favour buying games where I get a registration key which will work on any machine. I have two computers in normal circumstances and don't see why I should shell out the bucks or have to wait for a replacement key if a hard drive crashes or something. I already bought the game. However, I can certainly understand the logic of the argument for these hardware based keys given current conditions. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
I do agree that if your goal is to completely eradicate software piracy, then yeah you're just gonna be wasting your time. But I also believe that we should make every effort to make it more difficult for lazy idiots to crack programs. If we make it difficult enough it's going to seriously cut down on the number of people who'll be willing to resort to it as a method of getting software. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. - Original Message - From: Michael Feir [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 3:07 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop That's like saying that people will break into your house whether you like it or not so there's no use fighting it. Do you honestly think we shouldn't at least make it harder for people to commit criminal acts? Perhaps, I should just carry my credit card in a pocket instead of more securely in my wallet. Guess I don't really need to try to be responsable about keeping my credit card number safe if people will just steal it anyhow. Think about it. It has always been the case that people are expected to take reasonable precautions to protect themselves. The police are certainly there when they're needed but that's no excuse for utter stupidity. Persoanally, I'll always favour buying games where I get a registration key which will work on any machine. I have two computers in normal circumstances and don't see why I should shell out the bucks or have to wait for a replacement key if a hard drive crashes or something. I already bought the game. However, I can certainly understand the logic of the argument for these hardware based keys given current conditions. - Original Message - From: Daniel [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 3:46 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop Hi, I agree with Draconis. What I've seen is a Troopanum2 crack, yes. And is it hardware-based? I believe it was. I didn't use it, just... Gained information from jerks who pirate stuff. And Liam, there's stuff going around... My point is that I agree with you totally about hardware keys, don't use them! Pirates will get your game wether you like it or hate it, so there's no use in fighting it. On Thu, 20 Dec 2007 19:19:29 -0800, Draconis Entertainment wrote: The recent trend away from DRM in music downloads is a great illustration. The fact of the matter is simple. Is the loss of sales from pirates worth severely inconveniencing your loyal and dedicated customers? In the end, you are troubling far more of the honest folks than you are stopping dishonest ones. The music industry is learning the hard way. We believe that in producing keys the way we have, we're bolstering loyalty in our customers. We applaud Apple for the lack of activation required in the Mac OS X operating system, and their dedication to DRM-free music. Other music download sites are following suit. It is, for all the reasons above, and all of TOm's reasons below, the right thing to do. Draconis Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] Draconis Entertainment Feel the power...wield the magic... http://www.DraconisEntertainment.com http://www.DracoEnt.com On 20 Dec, 2007, at 6:36 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hello Che, Yes, XHEO is a very secure licensing library and product security system, but unfortunately I was unable to buy it before releasing Monte do to a lack of cash. I'm still thinking of buying it for future games, but I also know what customers have to put up with when using hardware based keys. For example, I have three computers in my house. I'd like to buy a game and install it on all of them. If it is hardware locked i either have to request new keys for each one or buy a copy for each computer which really isn't that fair or worth it. Also there is the issue about the developers ability to continue to give out new keys. Let's say i buy a game from developer x, he works alone, he gets seriously hurt in a car crash. i need a new key for reason x, but since the guy is in the hospital or maybe even dead I can't ever install that game again. That isn't exactly fair either, but the developer chose that root because some jerks were pirating his games, and the inocent customers have to pay the price. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
True, but you never really know what's gonna happen from one minute to the next where computers are concerned. Yeah, most of the time you can backup your product codes and things like that but there needs to be a contingency on the off chance that your system crashes before you're able to do that. That's happened to me on several occasions, which is why I so like BSC's replaement policy. You get a certain number of codes per year for each title (four in BSC's case), which is generally enough to go on. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. - Original Message - From: Thomas Ward [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Friday, December 21, 2007 7:00 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop Hi Michael, Yes, I have to agree with the point you raised just because there is a percentage of people who will crack your product doesn't mean a developer needs to be totally lax about security. On the other hand too much security can be a major turn off for some potential customers. So somewhere in between the two extremes there needs two be a balance where the product is reasonably secure but it doesn't become a frustrating nightmare for the end user. I've thought about a possible online product activation system where you could register the game so many times before the USA Games mysql database would need reset which would be somewhat fair. Say you could install the game 5 times a year before it mneeds reset. That would cut down on piracy, but again it would inconvenience the honest user if they don't have an internet connection or if they honestly need to install the game 5 times in one year which would seam unlikely. Michael Feir wrote: That's like saying that people will break into your house whether you like it or not so there's no use fighting it. Do you honestly think we shouldn't at least make it harder for people to commit criminal acts? Perhaps, I should just carry my credit card in a pocket instead of more securely in my wallet. Guess I don't really need to try to be responsable about keeping my credit card number safe if people will just steal it anyhow. Think about it. It has always been the case that people are expected to take reasonable precautions to protect themselves. The police are certainly there when they're needed but that's no excuse for utter stupidity. Persoanally, I'll always favour buying games where I get a registration key which will work on any machine. I have two computers in normal circumstances and don't see why I should shell out the bucks or have to wait for a replacement key if a hard drive crashes or something. I already bought the game. However, I can certainly understand the logic of the argument for these hardware based keys given current conditions. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Hello Che, Yes, XHEO is a very secure licensing library and product security system, but unfortunately I was unable to buy it before releasing Monte do to a lack of cash. I'm still thinking of buying it for future games, but I also know what customers have to put up with when using hardware based keys. For example, I have three computers in my house. I'd like to buy a game and install it on all of them. If it is hardware locked i either have to request new keys for each one or buy a copy for each computer which really isn't that fair or worth it. Also there is the issue about the developers ability to continue to give out new keys. Let's say i buy a game from developer x, he works alone, he gets seriously hurt in a car crash. i need a new key for reason x, but since the guy is in the hospital or maybe even dead I can't ever install that game again. That isn't exactly fair either, but the developer chose that root because some jerks were pirating his games, and the inocent customers have to pay the price. Che wrote: I use hardware based keys for the simple reason it is much harder for pirates to crack your software and distribute free copies of your games. I offer replacement keys in a timely manner for those that have hardware failures, but this has only occured a handful of times out of 200 plus copies sold. I know that there are lots of pirated versions of developers hard work floating out there, and I wanted the most secure path available, because if I findRail Racer being distributed as a crack, I am going to unleash one very dedicated lawyer and pay whatever it takes to find the culprits. Despite the best efforts of some talented jerks, as far as I know, RR has not been cracked, and that is a good thing for all of us. If I were a new developer about to release my first commercial game, I would seriously consider going with a hardware based serial key system, there will be a few inconveniences, but for me, having a secure product is well worth it. Later, Che --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
Valid arguments, but I recently saw a list of pirated games a member of our list here had, and it was basically all the major accessible game titles. For me, protecting my intellectual property is worth the slight inconvenience to myself as a developer, and it only takes a few seconds to send out another key to a customer. Additionally, RR spits out a config file that allows players to move their settings from one key to another, a system that should work for any accessible game, greatly minimizing the aggrivation from the customers standpoint. For you folks on list that use and distribute pirated games, please take a second to consider the damage you are doing to the entire community, as well as the encentive you take away from developers to make new and exciting games for all of us. Your actions are absolutely selfish and ignorant, and you have no excuse other than you are a pinhead. Later, Che --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
I've been making that same argument myself. I mean if this keeps up we could very well kill the AG market. Time is an illusion, lunchtime doubly so. - Original Message - From: Che [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Thursday, December 20, 2007 8:04 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop Valid arguments, but I recently saw a list of pirated games a member of our list here had, and it was basically all the major accessible game titles. For me, protecting my intellectual property is worth the slight inconvenience to myself as a developer, and it only takes a few seconds to send out another key to a customer. Additionally, RR spits out a config file that allows players to move their settings from one key to another, a system that should work for any accessible game, greatly minimizing the aggrivation from the customers standpoint. For you folks on list that use and distribute pirated games, please take a second to consider the damage you are doing to the entire community, as well as the encentive you take away from developers to make new and exciting games for all of us. Your actions are absolutely selfish and ignorant, and you have no excuse other than you are a pinhead. Later, Che --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: [Audyssey] Product Security was Keys for my laptop
The recent trend away from DRM in music downloads is a great illustration. The fact of the matter is simple. Is the loss of sales from pirates worth severely inconveniencing your loyal and dedicated customers? In the end, you are troubling far more of the honest folks than you are stopping dishonest ones. The music industry is learning the hard way. We believe that in producing keys the way we have, we're bolstering loyalty in our customers. We applaud Apple for the lack of activation required in the Mac OS X operating system, and their dedication to DRM-free music. Other music download sites are following suit. It is, for all the reasons above, and all of TOm's reasons below, the right thing to do. Draconis Entertainment [EMAIL PROTECTED] Draconis Entertainment Feel the power...wield the magic... http://www.DraconisEntertainment.com http://www.DracoEnt.com On 20 Dec, 2007, at 6:36 PM, Thomas Ward wrote: Hello Che, Yes, XHEO is a very secure licensing library and product security system, but unfortunately I was unable to buy it before releasing Monte do to a lack of cash. I'm still thinking of buying it for future games, but I also know what customers have to put up with when using hardware based keys. For example, I have three computers in my house. I'd like to buy a game and install it on all of them. If it is hardware locked i either have to request new keys for each one or buy a copy for each computer which really isn't that fair or worth it. Also there is the issue about the developers ability to continue to give out new keys. Let's say i buy a game from developer x, he works alone, he gets seriously hurt in a car crash. i need a new key for reason x, but since the guy is in the hospital or maybe even dead I can't ever install that game again. That isn't exactly fair either, but the developer chose that root because some jerks were pirating his games, and the inocent customers have to pay the price. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED] You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/[EMAIL PROTECTED] If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
