Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility
Hi Orin, Yeah I thought some people would do that. Not sure how much real guitar you've played but it's not uncommon to see people using both hands on the fretboard for lead work. There's a few techniques like tapping that are built entirely on that idea, very Final Countdown era hehe. Anyways, from an accessibility point of view, as far as i'm aware the sighted player doesn't receive indication of which fingers on which hand to use for which button, so we don't need too either. Hope that's true anyway, cos I'm clueless about how to express that lol. Scott On 1/7/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: You can, but it's not really necessary. with songs such as the final countdown though, it's probably a bad idea to try strumming the notes and pressing buttons simultaneously as you'll most likely miss most notes since they're so fast. It's a matter of preference whether we strum or not. - Original Message - From: Orin orin8...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility You also have to remember that the right hand is used for playing solos with the solo buttons as well. On Jan 6, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: I think the idea here is to get across the most amount of info with the least amount of noise over the top of a good song, right? So, firstly there needs to be a clear distinction between the left and right hand. The right hand seems simple enough, as as far as I know we're only dealing with a down or up strum. Seeing as down tends to be used more and traditionally marks accents they should probably stand out slightly more than upstrokes. Peccussive sounds make sense to me for the right hand seeing as we're dealing with rhythm, so perhaps a high short peccussive noise for an upstroke, and a lower one with a bit more oomph could indicate a down. The left hand being less peccussive and more note-based would make sense seeing as there's a wider set of options to express. I'd suggest a short beep is bound to each button, with widely spread intervals between the choice of note that expresses each button so that those without good relative pitch still have a fair chance of distinguishing a fast sequence. That doesn't solve chords, because a few short sounds playing at once would be hard to analyse. Don't really have a solution for that unless Harmonix's engine sees chords as being different from just a set of simultaneous notes if that makes sense. If it does, it'd give us options. If it doesn't, I'm stumpt. All the above probably sounds super annoying on paper, but with a volume option for it and the ability to switch it on and off with ease (perhaps in the pause menu if there is one) most VI gamers could probably find a level to suit them. Remember that most people will turn the thing off once they're comfortable with a song anyway. It's not super eligant, but seems like it could be fairly easy to integrate for them. Any takers or better suggestions? Scott On 1/6/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: yup definitely appreciate that you're willing to speak to them. Now does anyone have any idea of a good method harmonix could use for figuring out the notes? I've been thinking hard but can't come up with an idea that would actually work, and not annoy the blind gamer to the point that we simply never enable the feature and play how we're used to doing it. I'm thinking expert difficulty here which the average blind gamer will eventually tackle, and it contains so many notes and chords and such that I'm at a loss as to what could be done. There will need to be a way for us to know what the notes are in advanced, the different fret combinations, and the strumming patterns. I'll also send this to Brandon's list and see if anyone has any ideas. - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility No probs Eleanor, thanks for letting us know. It's actually a good thing, gives us more time to get the perfect note to them together. Cheers Scott On 1/6/10, Eleanor elea...@7128.com wrote: Hi Yohandy Scott - I just found out that the January meeting of the IGDA - Boston chapter, is on January 13th. Unfortunately, I will not be here on that date and so will have to wait till February to get that message to the Harmonix developer. Sorry about that - they usually have their meetings a little later in the month than that. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All
Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility
No probs Eleanor, thanks for letting us know. It's actually a good thing, gives us more time to get the perfect note to them together. Cheers Scott On 1/6/10, Eleanor elea...@7128.com wrote: Hi Yohandy Scott - I just found out that the January meeting of the IGDA - Boston chapter, is on January 13th. Unfortunately, I will not be here on that date and so will have to wait till February to get that message to the Harmonix developer. Sorry about that - they usually have their meetings a little later in the month than that. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility
yup definitely appreciate that you're willing to speak to them. Now does anyone have any idea of a good method harmonix could use for figuring out the notes? I've been thinking hard but can't come up with an idea that would actually work, and not annoy the blind gamer to the point that we simply never enable the feature and play how we're used to doing it. I'm thinking expert difficulty here which the average blind gamer will eventually tackle, and it contains so many notes and chords and such that I'm at a loss as to what could be done. There will need to be a way for us to know what the notes are in advanced, the different fret combinations, and the strumming patterns. I'll also send this to Brandon's list and see if anyone has any ideas. - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility No probs Eleanor, thanks for letting us know. It's actually a good thing, gives us more time to get the perfect note to them together. Cheers Scott On 1/6/10, Eleanor elea...@7128.com wrote: Hi Yohandy Scott - I just found out that the January meeting of the IGDA - Boston chapter, is on January 13th. Unfortunately, I will not be here on that date and so will have to wait till February to get that message to the Harmonix developer. Sorry about that - they usually have their meetings a little later in the month than that. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility
I think the idea here is to get across the most amount of info with the least amount of noise over the top of a good song, right? So, firstly there needs to be a clear distinction between the left and right hand. The right hand seems simple enough, as as far as I know we're only dealing with a down or up strum. Seeing as down tends to be used more and traditionally marks accents they should probably stand out slightly more than upstrokes. Peccussive sounds make sense to me for the right hand seeing as we're dealing with rhythm, so perhaps a high short peccussive noise for an upstroke, and a lower one with a bit more oomph could indicate a down. The left hand being less peccussive and more note-based would make sense seeing as there's a wider set of options to express. I'd suggest a short beep is bound to each button, with widely spread intervals between the choice of note that expresses each button so that those without good relative pitch still have a fair chance of distinguishing a fast sequence. That doesn't solve chords, because a few short sounds playing at once would be hard to analyse. Don't really have a solution for that unless Harmonix's engine sees chords as being different from just a set of simultaneous notes if that makes sense. If it does, it'd give us options. If it doesn't, I'm stumpt. All the above probably sounds super annoying on paper, but with a volume option for it and the ability to switch it on and off with ease (perhaps in the pause menu if there is one) most VI gamers could probably find a level to suit them. Remember that most people will turn the thing off once they're comfortable with a song anyway. It's not super eligant, but seems like it could be fairly easy to integrate for them. Any takers or better suggestions? Scott On 1/6/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: yup definitely appreciate that you're willing to speak to them. Now does anyone have any idea of a good method harmonix could use for figuring out the notes? I've been thinking hard but can't come up with an idea that would actually work, and not annoy the blind gamer to the point that we simply never enable the feature and play how we're used to doing it. I'm thinking expert difficulty here which the average blind gamer will eventually tackle, and it contains so many notes and chords and such that I'm at a loss as to what could be done. There will need to be a way for us to know what the notes are in advanced, the different fret combinations, and the strumming patterns. I'll also send this to Brandon's list and see if anyone has any ideas. - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility No probs Eleanor, thanks for letting us know. It's actually a good thing, gives us more time to get the perfect note to them together. Cheers Scott On 1/6/10, Eleanor elea...@7128.com wrote: Hi Yohandy Scott - I just found out that the January meeting of the IGDA - Boston chapter, is on January 13th. Unfortunately, I will not be here on that date and so will have to wait till February to get that message to the Harmonix developer. Sorry about that - they usually have their meetings a little later in the month than that. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers
Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility
Hello Scott, Just so you know, in rhythm games you can strum whichever way you wish. Up and down, down only etc, so it should make things a bit easier to figure out in that regard. I was also considering beeps for the different buttons, but what if we play a song like Malmsteen's Capricy di diablo, which happens to be in the game? that guy's a shredding beast. I can't possibly imagine trying to figure out so many beeps in such a short amount of time, remember they have to be well in advanced so we have enough time to press the button. the equivalent of scrolling notes for sighted users. it'll sound something like beep beepbeepbeep beep beep. you'll most likely toss the guitar through a windo haha. practice mode on 50% speed should make things somewhat easier though if this were to be implemented. oh and we've obviously forgotten drums! *groan* - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility I think the idea here is to get across the most amount of info with the least amount of noise over the top of a good song, right? So, firstly there needs to be a clear distinction between the left and right hand. The right hand seems simple enough, as as far as I know we're only dealing with a down or up strum. Seeing as down tends to be used more and traditionally marks accents they should probably stand out slightly more than upstrokes. Peccussive sounds make sense to me for the right hand seeing as we're dealing with rhythm, so perhaps a high short peccussive noise for an upstroke, and a lower one with a bit more oomph could indicate a down. The left hand being less peccussive and more note-based would make sense seeing as there's a wider set of options to express. I'd suggest a short beep is bound to each button, with widely spread intervals between the choice of note that expresses each button so that those without good relative pitch still have a fair chance of distinguishing a fast sequence. That doesn't solve chords, because a few short sounds playing at once would be hard to analyse. Don't really have a solution for that unless Harmonix's engine sees chords as being different from just a set of simultaneous notes if that makes sense. If it does, it'd give us options. If it doesn't, I'm stumpt. All the above probably sounds super annoying on paper, but with a volume option for it and the ability to switch it on and off with ease (perhaps in the pause menu if there is one) most VI gamers could probably find a level to suit them. Remember that most people will turn the thing off once they're comfortable with a song anyway. It's not super eligant, but seems like it could be fairly easy to integrate for them. Any takers or better suggestions? Scott On 1/6/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: yup definitely appreciate that you're willing to speak to them. Now does anyone have any idea of a good method harmonix could use for figuring out the notes? I've been thinking hard but can't come up with an idea that would actually work, and not annoy the blind gamer to the point that we simply never enable the feature and play how we're used to doing it. I'm thinking expert difficulty here which the average blind gamer will eventually tackle, and it contains so many notes and chords and such that I'm at a loss as to what could be done. There will need to be a way for us to know what the notes are in advanced, the different fret combinations, and the strumming patterns. I'll also send this to Brandon's list and see if anyone has any ideas. - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility No probs Eleanor, thanks for letting us know. It's actually a good thing, gives us more time to get the perfect note to them together. Cheers Scott On 1/6/10, Eleanor elea...@7128.com wrote: Hi Yohandy Scott - I just found out that the January meeting of the IGDA - Boston chapter, is on January 13th. Unfortunately, I will not be here on that date and so will have to wait till February to get that message to the Harmonix developer. Sorry about that - they usually have their meetings a little later in the month than that. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers
Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility
Hi Yohandy, Aha, well that simplifies the right hand, only one noise necessary. Hmmm, for scrolling notes to be useful I'd assume that they must scroll a consistent amount of time ahead of the song? At a guess, sighted people must see more detailed buttons and have less time to react to the display as the game difficulty level is increased right? So assuming that's all true and the Harmonix engine is sensitive to tempo or has the tempo mapped out for each song, we should in theory be able to run a bar or a beat ahead for each difficulty just like the sighted user. Might need to have someone sighted varify this, we need to find out the point in a bar that a button is displayed and then the point in the bar where the note that button is bound too falls, if that makes sense? For it to be instinctive in anyone's head I'd assume there would be a consistent scroll for each difficulty level. As for the shredders, with a combo of practice mode at 50% and very widely spaced intervals for our beeps, I reckon we could get it. As an experiment I just put some very short beeps roughly in line with the notes of a John Petrucci solo, and the sequence wasn't too hard to pick out, especially when I played it back at half the speed. Wide intervals are the key here. Remember that most sighted users probably memorise or develop muscle memory to a point for their favourite shreds and tricky licks, so once we know a song well and are just showing off we can turn the beeps and boops off. Drums are actually the easiest one to tackle imho. The obvious solution in my mind is to have a snare representing a snare, a kick representing a kick and so on. To make sure the guide sounds and the actual kit sound on the song stay very separate to the ear though, they could use tacky retro almost toy-like drum sounds on purpose. It wouldn't sound pretty, but with the volume not too loud it'd be functional and would always stay distinctive from the kit on the song. I think if this solution were ever to be implimented, the whole process of reacting to the scrolling system would be a learning curve for all of us, because currently our learning method seems to be way more musical. Hearing something and delaying it in time is going to mess with my tiny mind! Do you have anyone sighted to varify the consistency of the scrolling system? The whole question hinges on you understanding a bit about how to count time signitures too come to think of it, so let me know if I'm not making sense with the varification question. Cheers Scott On 1/6/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: Hello Scott, Just so you know, in rhythm games you can strum whichever way you wish. Up and down, down only etc, so it should make things a bit easier to figure out in that regard. I was also considering beeps for the different buttons, but what if we play a song like Malmsteen's Capricy di diablo, which happens to be in the game? that guy's a shredding beast. I can't possibly imagine trying to figure out so many beeps in such a short amount of time, remember they have to be well in advanced so we have enough time to press the button. the equivalent of scrolling notes for sighted users. it'll sound something like beep beepbeepbeep beep beep. you'll most likely toss the guitar through a windo haha. practice mode on 50% speed should make things somewhat easier though if this were to be implemented. oh and we've obviously forgotten drums! *groan* - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 4:18 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility I think the idea here is to get across the most amount of info with the least amount of noise over the top of a good song, right? So, firstly there needs to be a clear distinction between the left and right hand. The right hand seems simple enough, as as far as I know we're only dealing with a down or up strum. Seeing as down tends to be used more and traditionally marks accents they should probably stand out slightly more than upstrokes. Peccussive sounds make sense to me for the right hand seeing as we're dealing with rhythm, so perhaps a high short peccussive noise for an upstroke, and a lower one with a bit more oomph could indicate a down. The left hand being less peccussive and more note-based would make sense seeing as there's a wider set of options to express. I'd suggest a short beep is bound to each button, with widely spread intervals between the choice of note that expresses each button so that those without good relative pitch still have a fair chance of distinguishing a fast sequence. That doesn't solve chords, because a few short sounds playing at once would be hard to analyse. Don't really have a solution for that unless Harmonix's engine sees chords as being different from just a set of simultaneous notes if that makes sense. If it does
Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility
You also have to remember that the right hand is used for playing solos with the solo buttons as well. On Jan 6, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: I think the idea here is to get across the most amount of info with the least amount of noise over the top of a good song, right? So, firstly there needs to be a clear distinction between the left and right hand. The right hand seems simple enough, as as far as I know we're only dealing with a down or up strum. Seeing as down tends to be used more and traditionally marks accents they should probably stand out slightly more than upstrokes. Peccussive sounds make sense to me for the right hand seeing as we're dealing with rhythm, so perhaps a high short peccussive noise for an upstroke, and a lower one with a bit more oomph could indicate a down. The left hand being less peccussive and more note-based would make sense seeing as there's a wider set of options to express. I'd suggest a short beep is bound to each button, with widely spread intervals between the choice of note that expresses each button so that those without good relative pitch still have a fair chance of distinguishing a fast sequence. That doesn't solve chords, because a few short sounds playing at once would be hard to analyse. Don't really have a solution for that unless Harmonix's engine sees chords as being different from just a set of simultaneous notes if that makes sense. If it does, it'd give us options. If it doesn't, I'm stumpt. All the above probably sounds super annoying on paper, but with a volume option for it and the ability to switch it on and off with ease (perhaps in the pause menu if there is one) most VI gamers could probably find a level to suit them. Remember that most people will turn the thing off once they're comfortable with a song anyway. It's not super eligant, but seems like it could be fairly easy to integrate for them. Any takers or better suggestions? Scott On 1/6/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: yup definitely appreciate that you're willing to speak to them. Now does anyone have any idea of a good method harmonix could use for figuring out the notes? I've been thinking hard but can't come up with an idea that would actually work, and not annoy the blind gamer to the point that we simply never enable the feature and play how we're used to doing it. I'm thinking expert difficulty here which the average blind gamer will eventually tackle, and it contains so many notes and chords and such that I'm at a loss as to what could be done. There will need to be a way for us to know what the notes are in advanced, the different fret combinations, and the strumming patterns. I'll also send this to Brandon's list and see if anyone has any ideas. - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility No probs Eleanor, thanks for letting us know. It's actually a good thing, gives us more time to get the perfect note to them together. Cheers Scott On 1/6/10, Eleanor elea...@7128.com wrote: Hi Yohandy Scott - I just found out that the January meeting of the IGDA - Boston chapter, is on January 13th. Unfortunately, I will not be here on that date and so will have to wait till February to get that message to the Harmonix developer. Sorry about that - they usually have their meetings a little later in the month than that. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions
Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility
You can, but it's not really necessary. with songs such as the final countdown though, it's probably a bad idea to try strumming the notes and pressing buttons simultaneously as you'll most likely miss most notes since they're so fast. It's a matter of preference whether we strum or not. - Original Message - From: Orin orin8...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 7:39 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility You also have to remember that the right hand is used for playing solos with the solo buttons as well. On Jan 6, 2010, at 4:18 PM, Scott Chesworth wrote: I think the idea here is to get across the most amount of info with the least amount of noise over the top of a good song, right? So, firstly there needs to be a clear distinction between the left and right hand. The right hand seems simple enough, as as far as I know we're only dealing with a down or up strum. Seeing as down tends to be used more and traditionally marks accents they should probably stand out slightly more than upstrokes. Peccussive sounds make sense to me for the right hand seeing as we're dealing with rhythm, so perhaps a high short peccussive noise for an upstroke, and a lower one with a bit more oomph could indicate a down. The left hand being less peccussive and more note-based would make sense seeing as there's a wider set of options to express. I'd suggest a short beep is bound to each button, with widely spread intervals between the choice of note that expresses each button so that those without good relative pitch still have a fair chance of distinguishing a fast sequence. That doesn't solve chords, because a few short sounds playing at once would be hard to analyse. Don't really have a solution for that unless Harmonix's engine sees chords as being different from just a set of simultaneous notes if that makes sense. If it does, it'd give us options. If it doesn't, I'm stumpt. All the above probably sounds super annoying on paper, but with a volume option for it and the ability to switch it on and off with ease (perhaps in the pause menu if there is one) most VI gamers could probably find a level to suit them. Remember that most people will turn the thing off once they're comfortable with a song anyway. It's not super eligant, but seems like it could be fairly easy to integrate for them. Any takers or better suggestions? Scott On 1/6/10, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: yup definitely appreciate that you're willing to speak to them. Now does anyone have any idea of a good method harmonix could use for figuring out the notes? I've been thinking hard but can't come up with an idea that would actually work, and not annoy the blind gamer to the point that we simply never enable the feature and play how we're used to doing it. I'm thinking expert difficulty here which the average blind gamer will eventually tackle, and it contains so many notes and chords and such that I'm at a loss as to what could be done. There will need to be a way for us to know what the notes are in advanced, the different fret combinations, and the strumming patterns. I'll also send this to Brandon's list and see if anyone has any ideas. - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Wednesday, January 06, 2010 3:13 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] Rhythm Game Accessibility No probs Eleanor, thanks for letting us know. It's actually a good thing, gives us more time to get the perfect note to them together. Cheers Scott On 1/6/10, Eleanor elea...@7128.com wrote: Hi Yohandy Scott - I just found out that the January meeting of the IGDA - Boston chapter, is on January 13th. Unfortunately, I will not be here on that date and so will have to wait till February to get that message to the Harmonix developer. Sorry about that - they usually have their meetings a little later in the month than that. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E
Re: [Audyssey] rhythm game accessibility was The future ofBlastbayStudios
They used to produce it. I love rhythm games, and I was one of the few people to post on the harmonix forums. I agree with yohandy. Audio cues arent necessary.. especially if one knows music. Colors aren't randomly assigned... it does try and simulate guitar playing, so it isn't as hard as you would think. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] rhythm game accessibility
Eleanor, Thanks so much for the offer, very cool idea! Give us a few days to stew on it and put something informative and not too long together between us. We'll drop you a line with something to pass along soon though. Cheers Scott On 12/30/09, Eleanor elea...@7128.com wrote: Hey Yohandy and Scott - you were asking how to get the attention of folks from Harmonix. If you will write me an Email outlining the problems there are in accessing their games, and what you would like to see added to the games to make them more accessible, I will personally hand it to one of the developers from the company. I go to the monthly Boston Chapter IGDA meeting. There are one or more developers from Harmonix that attend regularly. I will talk to them and hand them the Email at the January meeting. You can send it to me off-line or as an Audyssey post - but if it is an Audyssey post, please indicate that this is the message you would like to have go to the Harmonix developers. Off-line I am elea...@7128.com. I don't know if it will help or not, but they know that I am a regular at the meeting and can follow up on it in the future. This might help some. At least they can't say they never had it brought to their attention. Eleanor Robinson 7-128 Software --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at http://audyssey.org/mailman/listinfo/gamers_audyssey.org. All messages are archived and can be searched and read at http://www.mail-archive.com/gam...@audyssey.org. If you have any questions or concerns regarding the management of the list, please send E-mail to gamers-ow...@audyssey.org.
Re: [Audyssey] rhythm game accessibility was The future of BlastbayStudios
Is this the company that produces Guitar Hero? - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 2:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] rhythm game accessibility was The future of BlastbayStudios Yohandy, I'm impressed! Not attempted that song myself, but if the game is even halfway like the coordination I needed to nail the solo on a real guitar it'd be fun. Audio cues as an optional thing wouldn't ruin the track imho, because surely most of us would run through training with them on, it'd make the figuring out process infinitely less painless, then we'd turn them off to have a shot at a song in career mode once we were confident. Of course, this all hinges on Harmonix either implimenting talking menues or some way of enabling/disabling accessibility features in an accessible fashion. Yup, badly explained, but hopefully you get my point. I've not been to the Harmonix forums or whatever. Would a well-written thread starter perhaps with a link to a youtube vid of you or someone similarly decent at the game demoing what's possible be the type of thing that would get the right sort of attention? On 12/29/09, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: I really enjoy these music games actually. Even the hardest guitar parts can be figured out. as an example there's a trophy on lego rock band that you need to get 100% on Europe's the final countdown solo on expert guitar. my highest is 97% at full speed. I figured the solo out by myself with absolutely no sighted help. If I can play these games anyone on this list should be able to as well. If they were to add some sort of queues to the track it would just ruin the song with unnecessary beeps or whatever. the talking menus would rock though. why don't you all email harmonix and let them know? that's the only way they'll find out, and they do want to help the blind according to a forum post I read a while back, they just don't know what to do. this is a great opportunity guys and everyone should let them know. it isn't every day a mainstream company does this and we could finally be recognized if everyone says something. - Original Message - From: Orin orin8...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The future of Blastbay Studios I think the easiest thing for me when it comes to these music games is the vocals. If companies like Harminix could add talking menus to the game, especially for the career mode, that'd be helpful. At least we'd have a chance of getting through the career mode. Right now I'm stuck somewhere in career mode, where no matter what I play this next venue that I need to go to simply will not unlock. Think I've unlocked a few, but I haven't even got all the vehicles yet, the Bus and Jet something of which I thought I already had. So even if they can't think anything for audio cues for drums and guitar/bass, vocals would be fine though honestly I'd prefer something where I don't have to use my voice. Also, on vocals, some songs are pretty hard, and we don't know how high or low the game would allow us to go. On expert painkiller, for example, the singer goes very high, not as high as I could go certainly. I think what a blind person might do is be like Oh, crap, I have to sing like that? The answer is no, we don't, but I don't know how high I could go to get the max stars/score possible. Also, playing around on expert bass is certainly fun, not as frustrating as learning guitar cords. Not in career mode though, since if you fail you'll loose fans, probably stars to the next advancement, etc. On Dec 26, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote: Another thought that just occurred is that, although some of the mainstream titles are pretty playable, a fully accessible game in the music genre would be an amazing timewaster for someone like me, and perhaps not too tough for the developer. My thinking being that one of the open source efforts such as frets on fire already has so many songs mapped out by users, if someone could come up with a way of putting those cues across in audio to relieve at least partly the need to memorise songs hit for hit, that'd be sweet. I realise that people, me included when I dabble from time to time at friend's places, have had pretty good success with the mainstream titles, but the ability to have a fully accessible career mode and/or compete online accessibly would be awesome. Just food for thought, I haven't thought about it enough to know whether it'd really be doable. On 12/26/09, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: An rpg would be lovely, and sinse we only have entombed thus far as a real audio rpg 9last crusade was more of a test product than a real game I thought), there's a huge tdemand for such a game, especially as you've said Scot, with Philip's sound production
Re: [Audyssey] rhythm game accessibility was The future of Blastbay Studios
I really enjoy these music games actually. Even the hardest guitar parts can be figured out. as an example there's a trophy on lego rock band that you need to get 100% on Europe's the final countdown solo on expert guitar. my highest is 97% at full speed. I figured the solo out by myself with absolutely no sighted help. If I can play these games anyone on this list should be able to as well. If they were to add some sort of queues to the track it would just ruin the song with unnecessary beeps or whatever. the talking menus would rock though. why don't you all email harmonix and let them know? that's the only way they'll find out, and they do want to help the blind according to a forum post I read a while back, they just don't know what to do. this is a great opportunity guys and everyone should let them know. it isn't every day a mainstream company does this and we could finally be recognized if everyone says something. - Original Message - From: Orin orin8...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The future of Blastbay Studios I think the easiest thing for me when it comes to these music games is the vocals. If companies like Harminix could add talking menus to the game, especially for the career mode, that'd be helpful. At least we'd have a chance of getting through the career mode. Right now I'm stuck somewhere in career mode, where no matter what I play this next venue that I need to go to simply will not unlock. Think I've unlocked a few, but I haven't even got all the vehicles yet, the Bus and Jet something of which I thought I already had. So even if they can't think anything for audio cues for drums and guitar/bass, vocals would be fine though honestly I'd prefer something where I don't have to use my voice. Also, on vocals, some songs are pretty hard, and we don't know how high or low the game would allow us to go. On expert painkiller, for example, the singer goes very high, not as high as I could go certainly. I think what a blind person might do is be like Oh, crap, I have to sing like that? The answer is no, we don't, but I don't know how high I could go to get the max stars/score possible. Also, playing around on expert bass is certainly fun, not as frustrating as learning guitar cords. Not in career mode though, since if you fail you'll loose fans, probably stars to the next advancement, etc. On Dec 26, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote: Another thought that just occurred is that, although some of the mainstream titles are pretty playable, a fully accessible game in the music genre would be an amazing timewaster for someone like me, and perhaps not too tough for the developer. My thinking being that one of the open source efforts such as frets on fire already has so many songs mapped out by users, if someone could come up with a way of putting those cues across in audio to relieve at least partly the need to memorise songs hit for hit, that'd be sweet. I realise that people, me included when I dabble from time to time at friend's places, have had pretty good success with the mainstream titles, but the ability to have a fully accessible career mode and/or compete online accessibly would be awesome. Just food for thought, I haven't thought about it enough to know whether it'd really be doable. On 12/26/09, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: An rpg would be lovely, and sinse we only have entombed thus far as a real audio rpg 9last crusade was more of a test product than a real game I thought), there's a huge tdemand for such a game, especially as you've said Scot, with Philip's sound production capabilities. That being said, sinse Philip himself was fairly clear on wanting to produce something action orientated, the most i could see him doing would be an action rpg like zelda, perhaps even a side scrolling one like some of the later castlevania or recent tomb rader or mega man titles. multiple wepons, hp and magic points, freely explorable areas, interesting story with npcs to interact with, maybe one use magics or elemental weaknesses, but combat which is essentially fast action based, hit it before it hits you, rather than turn based. If philip's interest is in more action games, I can't really see him doing something turn based myself. This being said, remember that entombed has been in developement sinse march of 2007, --- that's almost two years, which is quite some time for work on a single game. i'm perfectly certain it'll pay off especially when the new version is released (which won't I believe be long), but for a developer to commit to that sort of project is quite something. Beware the grue! Dark. --- Gamers mailing list __ Gamers@audyssey.org If you want to leave the list, send E-mail to gamers-unsubscr...@audyssey.org. You can make changes or update your subscription via the web, at
Re: [Audyssey] rhythm game accessibility was The future of Blastbay Studios
Yohandy, I'm impressed! Not attempted that song myself, but if the game is even halfway like the coordination I needed to nail the solo on a real guitar it'd be fun. Audio cues as an optional thing wouldn't ruin the track imho, because surely most of us would run through training with them on, it'd make the figuring out process infinitely less painless, then we'd turn them off to have a shot at a song in career mode once we were confident. Of course, this all hinges on Harmonix either implimenting talking menues or some way of enabling/disabling accessibility features in an accessible fashion. Yup, badly explained, but hopefully you get my point. I've not been to the Harmonix forums or whatever. Would a well-written thread starter perhaps with a link to a youtube vid of you or someone similarly decent at the game demoing what's possible be the type of thing that would get the right sort of attention? On 12/29/09, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: I really enjoy these music games actually. Even the hardest guitar parts can be figured out. as an example there's a trophy on lego rock band that you need to get 100% on Europe's the final countdown solo on expert guitar. my highest is 97% at full speed. I figured the solo out by myself with absolutely no sighted help. If I can play these games anyone on this list should be able to as well. If they were to add some sort of queues to the track it would just ruin the song with unnecessary beeps or whatever. the talking menus would rock though. why don't you all email harmonix and let them know? that's the only way they'll find out, and they do want to help the blind according to a forum post I read a while back, they just don't know what to do. this is a great opportunity guys and everyone should let them know. it isn't every day a mainstream company does this and we could finally be recognized if everyone says something. - Original Message - From: Orin orin8...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The future of Blastbay Studios I think the easiest thing for me when it comes to these music games is the vocals. If companies like Harminix could add talking menus to the game, especially for the career mode, that'd be helpful. At least we'd have a chance of getting through the career mode. Right now I'm stuck somewhere in career mode, where no matter what I play this next venue that I need to go to simply will not unlock. Think I've unlocked a few, but I haven't even got all the vehicles yet, the Bus and Jet something of which I thought I already had. So even if they can't think anything for audio cues for drums and guitar/bass, vocals would be fine though honestly I'd prefer something where I don't have to use my voice. Also, on vocals, some songs are pretty hard, and we don't know how high or low the game would allow us to go. On expert painkiller, for example, the singer goes very high, not as high as I could go certainly. I think what a blind person might do is be like Oh, crap, I have to sing like that? The answer is no, we don't, but I don't know how high I could go to get the max stars/score possible. Also, playing around on expert bass is certainly fun, not as frustrating as learning guitar cords. Not in career mode though, since if you fail you'll loose fans, probably stars to the next advancement, etc. On Dec 26, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote: Another thought that just occurred is that, although some of the mainstream titles are pretty playable, a fully accessible game in the music genre would be an amazing timewaster for someone like me, and perhaps not too tough for the developer. My thinking being that one of the open source efforts such as frets on fire already has so many songs mapped out by users, if someone could come up with a way of putting those cues across in audio to relieve at least partly the need to memorise songs hit for hit, that'd be sweet. I realise that people, me included when I dabble from time to time at friend's places, have had pretty good success with the mainstream titles, but the ability to have a fully accessible career mode and/or compete online accessibly would be awesome. Just food for thought, I haven't thought about it enough to know whether it'd really be doable. On 12/26/09, dark d...@xgam.org wrote: An rpg would be lovely, and sinse we only have entombed thus far as a real audio rpg 9last crusade was more of a test product than a real game I thought), there's a huge tdemand for such a game, especially as you've said Scot, with Philip's sound production capabilities. That being said, sinse Philip himself was fairly clear on wanting to produce something action orientated, the most i could see him doing would be an action rpg like zelda, perhaps even a side scrolling one like some of the later castlevania or recent tomb rader or mega
Re: [Audyssey] rhythm game accessibility was The future of BlastbayStudios
Hello Scott. Yup the solo's real fun and the notes aren't actually difficult. what's really hard is maintaining the speed and not missing any notes. Those triplets are a killer. After a dozen or so tries with the solo your hand starts feeling that pain lol. I definitely get your point on audio. I honestly don't know what the best way of catching harmonix's attention would be to be honest. I'd record videos of me playing, but I don't own capture cards or anything to make it look and sound decent. I think some people on this list do and will probably be able to do it though. if not I guess I could always use a normal camera and record it the old-fashioned way. better than nothing I suppose. - Original Message - From: Scott Chesworth scottcheswo...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Tuesday, December 29, 2009 4:35 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] rhythm game accessibility was The future of BlastbayStudios Yohandy, I'm impressed! Not attempted that song myself, but if the game is even halfway like the coordination I needed to nail the solo on a real guitar it'd be fun. Audio cues as an optional thing wouldn't ruin the track imho, because surely most of us would run through training with them on, it'd make the figuring out process infinitely less painless, then we'd turn them off to have a shot at a song in career mode once we were confident. Of course, this all hinges on Harmonix either implimenting talking menues or some way of enabling/disabling accessibility features in an accessible fashion. Yup, badly explained, but hopefully you get my point. I've not been to the Harmonix forums or whatever. Would a well-written thread starter perhaps with a link to a youtube vid of you or someone similarly decent at the game demoing what's possible be the type of thing that would get the right sort of attention? On 12/29/09, Yohandy yohand...@gmail.com wrote: I really enjoy these music games actually. Even the hardest guitar parts can be figured out. as an example there's a trophy on lego rock band that you need to get 100% on Europe's the final countdown solo on expert guitar. my highest is 97% at full speed. I figured the solo out by myself with absolutely no sighted help. If I can play these games anyone on this list should be able to as well. If they were to add some sort of queues to the track it would just ruin the song with unnecessary beeps or whatever. the talking menus would rock though. why don't you all email harmonix and let them know? that's the only way they'll find out, and they do want to help the blind according to a forum post I read a while back, they just don't know what to do. this is a great opportunity guys and everyone should let them know. it isn't every day a mainstream company does this and we could finally be recognized if everyone says something. - Original Message - From: Orin orin8...@gmail.com To: Gamers Discussion list gamers@audyssey.org Sent: Saturday, December 26, 2009 2:06 PM Subject: Re: [Audyssey] The future of Blastbay Studios I think the easiest thing for me when it comes to these music games is the vocals. If companies like Harminix could add talking menus to the game, especially for the career mode, that'd be helpful. At least we'd have a chance of getting through the career mode. Right now I'm stuck somewhere in career mode, where no matter what I play this next venue that I need to go to simply will not unlock. Think I've unlocked a few, but I haven't even got all the vehicles yet, the Bus and Jet something of which I thought I already had. So even if they can't think anything for audio cues for drums and guitar/bass, vocals would be fine though honestly I'd prefer something where I don't have to use my voice. Also, on vocals, some songs are pretty hard, and we don't know how high or low the game would allow us to go. On expert painkiller, for example, the singer goes very high, not as high as I could go certainly. I think what a blind person might do is be like Oh, crap, I have to sing like that? The answer is no, we don't, but I don't know how high I could go to get the max stars/score possible. Also, playing around on expert bass is certainly fun, not as frustrating as learning guitar cords. Not in career mode though, since if you fail you'll loose fans, probably stars to the next advancement, etc. On Dec 26, 2009, at 11:23 AM, Scott Chesworth wrote: Another thought that just occurred is that, although some of the mainstream titles are pretty playable, a fully accessible game in the music genre would be an amazing timewaster for someone like me, and perhaps not too tough for the developer. My thinking being that one of the open source efforts such as frets on fire already has so many songs mapped out by users, if someone could come up with a way of putting those cues across in audio to relieve at least partly the need to memorise songs hit for hit, that'd be sweet
