[Gendergap] Re: #MEMORY (WAS: Re: List update)

[LB]

So sad to hear that Sarah/Slim Virgin has passed. I wish I could leave my
condolences. I wasn't aware of her until she invited me to join the Gender
Gap Task Force, but from then on she was someone whose take on Wikipedia
and Wikipedians - including myself - was important to me. I especially
appreciate the hard work she put into improving the articles' and the
community's gender representation.

Lightbreather


On Sat, May 15, 2021, 9:21 PM Risker  wrote:

> The overwhelming majority of Wikimedians work only on one or two projects.
> I don't think Meta is a good place to memorialize them; in many cases, Meta
> is a project they have never gone to, where they are mostly unknown, and it
> is disconnected in almost all cases from the project where the deceased
> editor worked and called home. Their home project(s) or projects where they
> have made significant contributions are the best place to recognize them.
> There are a few Wikimedians who have worked at what may be considered the
> "global" level - which includes many people on this list - who might be
> recognized, in addition, on Meta or through a blog post or similar.
>
> Certainly, most of the contributions of our deceased colleagues are, in
> fact, preserved forever in the edit histories of the content areas in which
> they have worked.  Those who do not participate in content
> creation/management or on any of the projects...I really don't know where
> they would best be memorialized.
>
> I do know that the memorial messages on SlimVirgin/SarahSV's English
> Wikipedia user talk page
>  have been a great
> comfort to her family, and I'd encourage anyone who would like to leave a
> message of condolence to do so there.
>
> Risker/Anne
>
>
> On Wed, 12 May 2021 at 05:21, Željko Blaće  wrote:
>
>> Hey Folx -
>> I am new to the list and relatively new to organizing in this spectrum
>> and context. My work is mainly in bringing queer, but also feminist, green
>> and
>> other progressive practices (mostly to troubled Croatian Wikipedia,
>> but also in the region and trans-locally to peers elsewhere).
>>
>> Leigh thanks for the honest update and I am sorry to hear of email
>> losses,
>> as well as happy to hear of recovery of control due to tech update :-)
>> Dysfunctional Croatian language mailing list still needs to recover
>> control.
>>
>> I am very sorry to hear of losses of so many Wikimedians and though I did
>> not know them, their work as volunteers should maybe at least
>> systematically saved and presented for the collective memory of the
>> movement.
>>
>> I feel that corporate social media silos do not support that well (as
>> there is little value to extract there), so self hosting and preserving
>> information, knowledge, expressions and impressions should be organized in
>> some way.
>>
>> I wonder if there is already an established way on META or elsewhere to
>> keep track of people who contributed to the movement and specifically to
>> causes like the people you mentioned here. If not maybe it makes sense to
>> start something.
>>
>> Best Z. Blace
>>
>> On Tue, May 11, 2021 at 10:45 AM Marielle Volz 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Welcome back!
>>> Just to piggyback on this post, I'd also like to let people know that
>>> we've recently lost two editors who were a significant part of working on
>>> content gaps.
>>> Flyer22, who made significant contributions to articles on women's
>>> health, died in January:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Wikipedia_Signpost/2021-01-31/Obituary
>>>
>>> And just recently, SlimVirgin (Sarah), who among her many significant
>>> contributions overall, also founded the Gender Gap Task Force in 2013 and
>>> wrote an essay on how to write about women on Wikipedia:
>>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Deceased_Wikipedians/2021#SlimVirgin
>>>
>>> On Mon, May 10, 2021 at 9:34 PM Leigh Honeywell 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 Hey folks! it's been a while.

 The Gendergap mailing list just got migrated to Mailman 3, which means
 I now have my admin access back (I'd lost access to the previous system and
 hadn't had a chance to restore it for... several years.)

 The list had been set to new posters being moderated, which resulted in
 a number of messages being caught and I wasn't able to release them.
 Unfortunately those messages didn't survive the migration, but I've
 adjusted the moderation settings and going forward new messages should go
 through.

 I've adjusted the list description to be a bit more concise: it is now
 "Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase gender diversity
 in Wikimedia projects."

 This part is sad, but as a heads up and for transparency's sake:
 I also went ahead and removed Kevin as an Owner/Moderator of the list
 as I don't know who now controls his former email accounts. For those who
 had missed his passing, there is a lovely tribute to his life 

[Gendergap] How may Trump win effect the WP working environment

[LB]

In light of Trump boasting of grabbing women "by the pussy" and of him
calling Clinton a "nasty woman" on national TV during a formal presidential
debate, I wonder what effect, if any, his election may have on the WP
working environment.

Since the election there have been numerous reports of women and minorities
being openly attacked by emboldened men and women and who supported Trump
and his... values. Apparently this was the case in Englad post-Brexit, too?

Has anyone else thought about this?

Lightbreather
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[Gendergap] Retired

[LB]

Due to off-wiki harassment, I have retired. Thank you to those of you who
have been friendly with me over the past year.

Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] Retired

[LB]

Sorry to hear that you were ill, and thank you for the kind thoughts.

Lightbreather

On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 5:39 PM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi Lightbreather -

 I know I haven't been very active lately (I wound up with sepsis,) but I
 am sorry to see you go.  I'm not very familiar with the on-wiki side of
 what happened to you, but I think it should be an urgent priority for WMF
 to develop better tools (and a culture that uses them) to handle both
 on-wiki and off-wiki harassment.  I wish you the best, thank you for your
 contributions so far, and hope there's a time in the future where changes
 have been made to the point that you are interested in and comfortable
 coming back.

 Best,
 Kevin Gorman

 On Tue, May 26, 2015 at 5:35 PM, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Due to off-wiki harassment, I have retired. Thank you to those of you who
 have been friendly with me over the past year.

 Lightbreather


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Re: [Gendergap] Women reluctant to comment online - any relation to the WP gender gap?

[LB]

A reminder to women on this list, if there is something you want to discuss
privately with other women Wikipedia editors, go to this page - Anita Borg
Institute - Systers Technical Interests
http://anitaborg.org/get-involved/systers/technical-interests/ - and
scroll down, you will see a link to Join Systers-Wikipedia.

If you would like to know more about the Anita Borg Institute or
the Systers list, please visit:

   - Anita Borg Institute http://anitaborg.org/
   - Systers http://anitaborg.org/get-involved/systers/

*I encourage everyone to keep commenting on this discussion here*, but I
want to remind women WP editors that there is a private, women-only list
for when you feel the need. FWIW: Applicants are vetted.

Lightbreather

On Sat, May 2, 2015 at 5:05 PM, Kerry Raymond kerry.raym...@gmail.com
wrote:

  Could this provide any insights into women contributing to Wikipedia?




 http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2015/apr/23/women-are-silenced-online-just-as-in-real-life-it-will-take-more-than-twitter-to-change-that



 Kerry



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Re: [Gendergap] Systers-Wikipedia

[LB]

No-one claiming to be male on-wiki has asked to join the list. That would
be a problem for me and I would take it up with the other list members. I
probably would divulge the editors username to see if the existing (vetted)
list members have any history with the editor. However, list members agree
to abide by certain rules, so outing would be bad. This is the
Systers-Wikipedia FAQ, which is based on the original Systers list FAQ, and
which list members must read an agree to abide by in order to join:
http://systers.org/wiki/communities/doku.php?id=wiki:systers:systers-wikipedia-faq#what_is_appropriate_content_for_mail_sent_to_the_list

I won't spend a lot of time here discussing the list, but women (including
transgender) are welcome to apply.


Lightbreather

On Sat, Apr 25, 2015 at 11:08 PM, Spike Lechat ekips3...@gmail.com wrote:

 Sounds like a good idea.  I have a question, though: if a woman has not
 publicly disclosed her gender (or claims to be male) to avoid harassment,
 and she joins the list, can she expect to be outed elsewhere by members
 of the list, or criticised for lying?  It may be an impossible problem,
 but it's worth thinking about because there are probably several people who
 fit that description.

 On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 11:51 PM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thanks for setting it up.

 Please keep in mind the benefits of bringing back good discussions to
 the open forum, including self-governance to avoid creating an
 echo-chamber. The new list excludes me, and at the same time I support
 experimenting with different types of safe spaces when there is a
 perceived need.

 Fae

 On 21 April 2015 at 19:49, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:
  There is now a Systers-Wikipedia private mailing list for Wikipedia
 women
  editors only. If you are a Wikipedia woman editor (including
 transgender),
  contact me for info on how to join.
 
  I meant to announce this a few weeks ago, but an unplanned, personal
  business trip and a broken elbow held me up.
 
  Lightbreather

 --
 fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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Re: [Gendergap] Systers-Wikipedia

[LB]

Actually, Fae, there isn't much going on now except trying to build the
list up a little. After how much resistance (to put it mildly) the idea of
a women-only area received on-wiki, I think some women are or would be
afraid to be associated with such a group. (I believe that is part of why
so much resistance (disdain and anger, really) was put up.)

As I've explained in the past, it's mostly there for woman-to-woman to
support, not for gossiping about individuals, or for discussing (at length
anyway) Wikipedia articles or policies. In fact, no gossiping or discussing
articles or policies has taken place to date.

Lightbreather

On Tue, Apr 21, 2015 at 8:51 PM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thanks for setting it up.

 Please keep in mind the benefits of bringing back good discussions to
 the open forum, including self-governance to avoid creating an
 echo-chamber. The new list excludes me, and at the same time I support
 experimenting with different types of safe spaces when there is a
 perceived need.

 Fae

 On 21 April 2015 at 19:49, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:
  There is now a Systers-Wikipedia private mailing list for Wikipedia women
  editors only. If you are a Wikipedia woman editor (including
 transgender),
  contact me for info on how to join.
 
  I meant to announce this a few weeks ago, but an unplanned, personal
  business trip and a broken elbow held me up.
 
  Lightbreather

 --
 fae...@gmail.com https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/User:Fae

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[Gendergap] Systers-Wikipedia

[LB]

There is now a Systers-Wikipedia private mailing list for Wikipedia women
editors only. If you are a Wikipedia woman editor (including transgender),
contact me for info on how to join.

I meant to announce this a few weeks ago, but an unplanned, personal
business trip and a broken elbow held me up.

Lightbreather
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[Gendergap] Outcome of IdeaLab/Inspire campaign

[LB]

My arm is in a cast/splint. Not in good spirits, not getting around well.
Got a request to participate in a survey re the Inspire campaign. Made me
wonder: What was the result? Which, if any, ideas are going to be supported.

I gave up on WikiProject Women because there was so much hatred thrown at
the idea and I had no idea how to proceed, even though a lot of people did
support it.

Finally: Could someone please tell me if this posts? I don't seem to get
things that I post to this list!

Lightbreather
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[Gendergap] Outcome of IdeaLab/Inspire campaign

[LB]

WikiProject Women was actually at the top of the Leaderboard:
*https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Inspire/Leaderboard
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Inspire/Leaderboard*

Lightbreather
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[Gendergap] 5 days left to Inspire Campaign: What to do about WikiWomen Project

[LB]

I worried over this earlier in the month, then I got a brief vacation with
my sisters. Now I'm back and I need to make up my mind whether or not I
want to pursue the WikiProject Women proposal that I made back in January.
(Since there are only five days left in the Inspire Campaign.)

Here's a link for those who aren't familiar, or who haven't thought about
it in awhile:
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Women

The original proposal was for a women-only Wikipedia (English) project, but
because of the hostility of some in opposing the idea (and the
Kaffeeklatsch test area), I'm leaning now toward a women-only area at meta
(right term? I mean at wikimedia.org).

Feedback? Suggestions? There was lots of support, but there was also, as
most of you know, plenty of opposition.

Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] Thank someone today.

[LB]

I agree, Kerry. I try to use the thank button at least once a day.

Lightbreather

On Wed, Feb 4, 2015 at 4:50 PM, Kerry Raymond kerry.raym...@gmail.com
wrote:


 We talk a lot of about the culture of Wikipedia being negative, critical,
 abrasive etc; this is a turn-off to a lot of women (and also to a lot of
 men). But what can we do to change that? Well, I thought about the way that
 postings get Liked on Facebook. Indeed, most postings get many Likes on
 Facebook. It seems if you read something and appreciate the post in any way
 (which includes when you agree with the poster that it is unhappy matter
 and
 hence unlikeable matter), you click Like.

 Well, I decided to try it on Wikipedia. Now, when I run through my
 watchlist
 (which I do most mornings), instead of just looking for what's wrong and
 needs to be fixed, instead if I see a positive contribution to an article,
 even a small one, I thank the contributor for the edit.

 And if I notice I am thanking someone quite a bit, I send them some
 Wikilove
 or a Barnstar. I notice a small increase in the number of thanks I am
 receiving. While I realise this may be simple reciprocation, I'd like to
 think I might be creating a small culture of appreciation in my topic
 space,
 hoping that people choose to Pay It Forward.

 So, that's my suggestion. Try thanking people on-wiki in the various ways
 available.  Become part of the niceness culture that we'd like Wikipedia to
 become known for.

 Kerry



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Re: [Gendergap] press coverage of Gamergate arbcom case

[LB]

Marie I always find your replies so interesting. Glad you share.
On Jan 30, 2015 5:46 AM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

 There is something I thought I should mention as a UK member of this list.

 Hate speech (including online) is illegal in the UK.

 When the Bank of England announced that Elizabeth Fry would be dropped
 from the new £5 notes and replaced with Winston Churchill, it meant that
 there would be no women on sterling bank notes (apart from the Queen).

 Caroline Criado-Perez successfully campaigned for Jane Austin to be added
 to £10 notes and received threats of rape and death.
 http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/10207231/Woman-who-campaigned-for-Jane-Austen-bank-note-receives-Twitter-death-threats.html

 That instigated an online campaign which resulted in Twitter adding its
 'report' button.

 Isabella Sorley, 23, of Newcastle-upon-Tyne, tweets included: die you
 worthless piece of crap, go kill yourself and, I've only just got out
 of prison and would happily do more time to see you berried!!

 John Nimmo, 25, of South Shields, made references to rape and added: I
 will find you (smiley face).

 Sorley was sentenced to 12 weeks in prison, and Nimmo was jailed for 8
 weeks. http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-25886026

 The law they broke was Section 127 of the Communications Act 2003
 http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/2003/21/section/127

 If UK-based Wikipedian 'X' breaches s.127 of the Comms. Act due to
 something they said on Wikipedia about UK-based Wikipedian 'Y' then they
 face criminal prosecution and possibly jail.

 The litmus test is whether what they have said is not only 'offensive'
 but, 'grossly offensive'. Wikipedia's internal systems and thresholds would
 make no difference to the authorities in the UK. It would be interesting to
 see what the public fall-out would be if Wikipedia decided that no action
 should be taken against X whilst the UK jailed him / her.

 Marie


 --
 Date: Tue, 27 Jan 2015 11:41:36 -0500
 From: neot...@gmail.com
 To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] press coverage of Gamergate arbcom case

 Double standard.  Where are all the usual voices protesting about
 civility police?  Where are all the arbitrators opining that they cannot
 set objective standards for language?

 Beeblebrox used to have an article about fuck off in his user space.  It
 didn't get him banned. In fact, he went on to become an administrator and
 arbitrator.

 In the absence of objective standards, subjective standards are emerging,
 based on gender.  Using the f-word, or even criticizing male users, is
 becoming a male privilege on en.wp.  Anyone else who uses the word is
 hostile and exhibiting battleground behavior. I must also say I am very
 disappointed in GorillaWarfare's role here.

 Maybe, just maybe, instead of just dismissing anything that is said by a
 woman editor, the arbitration committee should investigate it. I am looking
 in particular at this one
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Edit_warringdiff=prevoldid=631322169
 If it is true, there are a huge number of users recruited on external
 sites, who are not there to build an encyclopedia, that will have huge
 implications for the survival of women editors on Wikipedia. The
 arbitration committee is looking at WP:SPA, they should look at WP:MEAT.
 And they should pay attention to who the ringleaders are, not just the
 throwaway accounts.
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants_talk:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Womendiff=nextoldid=10928257
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants_talk:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Womendiff=10938964oldid=10936831
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants_talk:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Womendiff=10952260oldid=10951344
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/w/index.php?title=Grants:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Womendiff=10991140oldid=10979378


 But, as has been pointed out on the current RFC,
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Harassment#RfC:_should_the_policy_extend_harassment_to_include_posting_ANY_other_accounts_on_ANY_other_websites.3F
 that would change the WP:OUTING policy to prohibit all mention of outside
 accounts, including Reddit Men's Rights and Reddit Gamergate, trying to
 address the issues without being able to talk openly about the evidence is
 difficult.


 On Mon, Jan 26, 2015 at 11:05 PM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

 I don't know a lot about this case, but taking a cursory look at the
 diffs...


 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gamergate_controversydiff=prevoldid=628547686

 ...presumably an excessive edit is a derogatrory way of saying a single
 large edit. In which case I would probably have said the same as this:


 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Talk:Gamergate_controversydiff=prevoldid=628548723

 To be feminist or to not be feminist...

 I once read about a mother who went into a toy shop with her little girl.

[Gendergap] Goings-on at WER

[LB]

Some of you may already be aware of this, but there is a did you ask any
women question that has blown up all out-of-proportion at WP Editor
Retention.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Editor_Retention#How_many_women_have_been_involved_in_these_discussions.3F

Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] press coverage of Gamergate arbcom case

[LB]

I just went and read GorillaWarfare's votes. She is my eyes and ears there.
that is, I trust her judgement. She is an excellent arbitrator, and I wish
the Committee had 4 or 5 more like her.
 On Jan 23, 2015 10:07 PM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 The rediculous thing is that none of the people defending that article
 were 'feminists'. They were just defending the mainstream point of view
 from an endless onslaught of 8channers. The feminist point view isn't even
 represented in the article.

 On Jan 23, 2015, at 7:14 PM, J Hayes slowki...@gmail.com wrote:


 http://www.theguardian.com/technology/2015/jan/23/wikipedia-bans-editors-from-gender-related-articles-amid-gamergate-controversy


 http://internet.gawker.com/wikipedia-purged-a-group-of-feminist-editors-because-of-1681463331/+cushac


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Re: [Gendergap] press coverage of Gamergate arbcom case

[LB]

I think one thing that could help is to reclaim the GGTF. The thing is to
remain unflappable and ignore The Troll.
 On Jan 24, 2015 9:36 AM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 7:26 AM, J Hayes slowki...@gmail.com wrote:

 well, they did not revdel it.
 arbcom can drive the  discussion off wiki,
 but cannot ban the Guardian for bad journalism
 certain account behaviors are being favored
 you should expect to see a lot more of those behaviors in the future

 this will necessitate a lot of wiki-splaining

 thank-you arbcom for firing up every up coming feminist editathon
 you may not care how how you are perceived,
 but the negative blowback will tarnish all of wikimedia

 ​Smallbones has suggested
 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Wikipedia_talk%3AWikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias%2FGender_gap_task_forcediff=643969579oldid=643910647
 on the GGTF talk page that a group of Wikipedians petition the Foundation
 to ​

 ​​take steps to identify and remove institutionalized sexism on
 Wikipedia.

 One issue that has concerned me is that editors who care about these
 issues don't combine our weight. We have the GGTF, this mailing list, the
 Twitter and Facebook accounts, but we don't act with one voice when it
 matters. I'm not sure of the reasons for that, but I think it damages our
 efforts. What can we do to start pulling together more?

 Sarah

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Re: [Gendergap] Stepping down as list mod - volunteers needed

[LB]

I might be interested. What all's involved?

Lightbreather

On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 2:07 PM, Leigh Honeywell le...@hypatia.ca wrote:

 Hey Kevin, don't worry about getting Emily added - I'll handle it. Sorry
 to hear you've been ill!

 To the rest of the list, another volunteer or two would be really great.
 Thanks!

 -Leigh

 On Fri, Jan 23, 2015 at 4:04 PM, Kevin Gorman kgor...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hi all -

 Unfortunately I collapsed in severe septic shock several weeks ago, and
 thus Wikimedia related business hasn't been on my radar.

 Thank you Leigh, for service. I'll be appointing Emily/Keilana the next
 time on my mobile, but more volunteers are welcome.

 Best,
 Kevin Gorman


 On Monday, January 19, 2015, Leigh Honeywell le...@hypatia.ca wrote:

 Hi folks! I've decided that in 2015 I'm going to try to do fewer things
 but do them better, so in that spirit I'm stepping down as a moderator of
 this list. This means we need another moderator (or two or three) to step
 up. Please email gendergap-ow...@lists.wikimedia.org if you're
 interested in this.

 Thanks!

 -Leigh

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[Gendergap] Question at the Village Pump

[LB]

There is a question at the Village Pump that should be of interest to
members of this list.

Risk in identifying as a woman editor on Wikipedia
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Village_pump_(miscellaneous)#Risk_in_identifying_as_a_woman_editor_on_Wikipedia

Lightbreather
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[Gendergap] Request re the Gendergap mailing list subscription page

[LB]

I would like to suggest that the Gendergap mailing list subscription page
https://lists.wikimedia.org/mailman/listinfo/gendergap include the five
bullet points in the Gender Gap Discuss section
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Gender_gap#Discuss


   - No personal attacks
   - Try to stay on topic and take other things off-list
   - Try to turn fighting into constructive discussion, or disengage/take
   it off-list
   - Help guide discussion toward concrete action
   - Be aware that using an aggressive or argumentative tone (or even just
   posting too much) can discourage people from participating


Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] Opinion pieces on cisgender...Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[LB]

You know what I want? A place where women can come together and talk. I
hope they won't get hung up on - or especially belittle each other - if
they prefer to say *about themselves* I am a woman, or I am a cisgender
woman, or I am a woman-born-woman, or I am a trans-woman, or whatever.

And I sure hope that wouldn't be the main thing we talked about.


Lightbreather

On Sat, Jan 17, 2015 at 9:42 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
wrote:

 Since I started a minor brouhaha on cisgender, I figured I should provide
 some examples of women (and feminists) who dislike the phrase.  Frankly, I
 never have gotten a handle on what gender means and never use the phrase
 gender at all except in gender gap, only because sex gap obviously is not
 useable.  I think sexual stereotypes - and the resultant imposed sexual
 roles, sexual discrimination, sexual abuse, etc. -  are the problem; all
 this talk about gender confuses the issue. People who are born intersex may
 choose to use that phase or identify with one sex or the other. Those who
 state they are really individuals of the opposite sex trapped in the wrong
 body certainly can define themselves as transgenders or transsexuals.  But
 trying to redefine all individuals (straight, gay/lesbian or bi) by whether
 or not they are transgender or cisgender is absurd.

 http://sarahditum.com/2014/04/21/notes-from-a-non-cis-woman/

 http://liberationcollective.wordpress.com/2012/06/08/a-
 feminist-critique-of-cisgender/

 http://bugbrennan.com/2012/12/12/cisterhood-is-powerful/

 http://uppitybiscuit.wordpress.com/2007/01/19/do-
 not-call-me-cisgender-you-do-not-have-my-permission-to-name-me/

 http://www.nationalreview.com/article/378511/cis-ridiculous-
 christine-sisto

 http://bmgnedra.wordpress.com/2014/03/28/sscabdscab-
 reframing-the-conversation/

 http://glosswatch.com/2014/04/20/beauty-and-the-cis/
 http://glosswatch.com/2014/04/24/9-reasons-why-cis-isnt-working/

 http://bigboobutch.com/2013/09/16/cis-queerly-not-yours/


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Re: [Gendergap] Diversity training for functionaries. In London?

[LB]

Thanks, Leigh. That guy attacked me regularly during the cuntgate
business on WP, and especially while the GGTF ArbCom was open.


Lightbreather

On Sun, Jan 18, 2015 at 11:33 AM, Leigh Honeywell le...@hypatia.ca wrote:

 Tim, this kind ofsnippiness is inappropriate and unhelpful. I'll be
 unsubscribing you from the list.


 On Sunday, January 18, 2015, Tim Davenport shoehu...@gmail.com wrote:

 [Jonathan Cardy wrote:] I have no problem arranging the room,
 putting up a geonotice and being an attendee.

 It seems to me that Jonathan is a little unclear with Lightbreather's
 concept

 You are male. You make safe spaces unsafe by your very existence. You
 are not welcome. Go away.

 Sorry, well-meaning paternalistic friend, you just don't have the right
 chromosomes to play.


 Tim Davenport
 Corvallis, OR
 Corvallis, OR USA



 =

 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 22:43:52 +
 From: WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.com
 To: Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
 participation   of women within Wikimedia projects.
 gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Diversity training for functionaries. In
 London?
 Message-ID: c1e74568-d89b-4462-88ff-b21063c6e...@gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

 It would be very easy for us to host a two hour session in London on a
 weekday evening at the UK offices. I am fairly sure we could get a bunch of
 admins and others to attend, aside from some of the London regulars who
 have agreed in principle, a geonotice would likely attract more.

 I have no problem arranging the room, putting up a geonotice and being an
 attendee. However I would need a volunteer to run the session. That isn't
 just because I'm the wrong gender to run such an event, but at the moment I
 don't know what changes in behaviour you would be hoping to train people
 into.

 Regards

 Jonathan Cardy



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Re: [Gendergap] Diversity training for functionaries. In London?

[LB]

My auto correct changed on-wiki to on-line. I did/do mean on-wiki.
On Jan 18, 2015 9:53 AM, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Please don't misrepresent me. Wanting ONE safe place on-line for women
 only (which is what I want) is not the same as wanting no men anywhere
 where women are (not wanted by anyone, that I've seen) . Besides, isn't
 this thread about diversity training? Did it change to talk off a
 women-only space? If so, I missed that segue.

 Carrite/Tim, are you a men's rights advocate?
 On Jan 18, 2015 9:26 AM, Tim Davenport shoehu...@gmail.com wrote:

 [Jonathan Cardy wrote:] I have no problem arranging the room,
 putting up a geonotice and being an attendee.

 It seems to me that Jonathan is a little unclear with Lightbreather's
 concept

 You are male. You make safe spaces unsafe by your very existence. You
 are not welcome. Go away.

 Sorry, well-meaning paternalistic friend, you just don't have the right
 chromosomes to play.


 Tim Davenport
 Corvallis, OR
 Corvallis, OR USA



 =

 Date: Mon, 29 Dec 2014 22:43:52 +
 From: WereSpielChequers werespielchequ...@gmail.com
 To: Addressing gender equity and exploring ways to increase the
 participation   of women within Wikimedia projects.
 gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] Diversity training for functionaries. In
 London?
 Message-ID: c1e74568-d89b-4462-88ff-b21063c6e...@gmail.com
 Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8

 It would be very easy for us to host a two hour session in London on a
 weekday evening at the UK offices. I am fairly sure we could get a bunch of
 admins and others to attend, aside from some of the London regulars who
 have agreed in principle, a geonotice would likely attract more.

 I have no problem arranging the room, putting up a geonotice and being an
 attendee. However I would need a volunteer to run the session. That isn't
 just because I'm the wrong gender to run such an event, but at the moment I
 don't know what changes in behaviour you would be hoping to train people
 into.

 Regards

 Jonathan Cardy

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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[LB]

It's tempting, but I'm not ready to make that leap yet for my purpose. I
really want it for women only, which isn't quite the same as not men. I'm
leaning toward Anne's those who self-identify as women. It was my first
instinct, and that's usually the way to go.

Lightbreather

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 7:40 PM, GorillaWarfare 
gorillawarfarewikipe...@gmail.com wrote:

 I'm a member of a feminist safe space that simply uses not men, and
 leaves it to members to judge if this applies to them. Just a thought.

 – Molly (GorillaWarfare)

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[Gendergap] How to proceed?

[LB]

So I made the WikiProject Women proposal at the IdeaLab:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Women

10 days ago now, with some remarkable support
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Women#Idea_support_as_of_2010-01-13_20:47_UTC,
IMO.

I'd like to proceed with this, but how? I am completely unfamiliar with
this process, so there the proposal sits. I would appreciate some guidance.

Thanks.

Lightbreather
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[Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[LB]

Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Women#best_practice.3F,
I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch area for
women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested women
would be welcome.

Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[LB]

I hesitated to use the term, but it seemed to be shorthand for exactly what
you just said, Sarah. At least that's how I meant it, and I didn't mean to
suggest that it's scientific.

Lightbreather

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 2:33 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
wrote:

 I'm not cis..and it was a term I only learned about a few years ago...
 but, here's the Wikipedia article: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

 It means that someone identifies as the gender they were born with. So, if
 you're born with female parts and you identify as a woman and it's totally
 inline with who you are as said woman... you're cis.

 I think Lightbreather used it in the correct way. I'm not sure why it's an
 insult. It's more like a scientific term, it seems, then a cultural
 movement.

 But, I've learned by now I'm rather an epic fail at trying to use all of
 these phrases properly. I blame being from Indiana.  ;-)

 Sarah

 On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Katherine Casey 
 fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com wrote:



 *Also note many women consider cis to be an insult that eliminates
 womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
 from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.*
 ...wha?

 On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
  wrote:

  On 1/16/2015 2:20 PM, LB wrote:

 Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Women#best_practice.3F,
 I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch area
 for women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested
 women would be welcome.

  Lightbreather

 Since cis means non-trans male or female, where's the woman only?

 Also note many women consider cis to be an insult that eliminates
 womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
 from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.

 CM

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 Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.

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Re: [Gendergap] Test Kaffeeklatsch area for women-only

[LB]

Whatever we want to that doesn't break WP policy or the klatsch's rules. I
envision it along the lines of the WikiProject Women proposal
https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Women#Project_idea
at the IdeaLab.


Lightbreather

On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 3:06 PM, JJ Marr jjm...@gmail.com wrote:

 What will be discussed in this Kaffeeklatsch area?
  On Jan 16, 2015 4:56 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Whatever else cis is, it's not a scientific term.  It's a buzzword that
 sounds scientific because it derives from the Latin, but in fact it's a
 coined term that is not used in science.

 Risker/Anne



 On 16 January 2015 at 16:33, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 I'm not cis..and it was a term I only learned about a few years ago...
 but, here's the Wikipedia article:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cisgender

 It means that someone identifies as the gender they were born with. So,
 if you're born with female parts and you identify as a woman and it's
 totally inline with who you are as said woman... you're cis.

 I think Lightbreather used it in the correct way. I'm not sure why it's
 an insult. It's more like a scientific term, it seems, then a cultural
 movement.

 But, I've learned by now I'm rather an epic fail at trying to use all of
 these phrases properly. I blame being from Indiana.  ;-)

 Sarah

 On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 1:24 PM, Katherine Casey 
 fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com wrote:



 *Also note many women consider cis to be an insult that eliminates
 womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as women
 from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.*
 ...wha?

 On Fri, Jan 16, 2015 at 4:13 PM, Carol Moore dc 
 carolmoor...@verizon.net wrote:

  On 1/16/2015 2:20 PM, LB wrote:

 Based on a discussion at the WikiProject Women IdeaLab talk page
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants_talk:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Women#best_practice.3F,
 I have started a test Kaffeeklatsch
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Lightbreather/Kaffeeklatsch area
 for women (cis, lesbian, transgender) only. Participation of interested
 women would be welcome.

  Lightbreather

 Since cis means non-trans male or female, where's the woman only?

 Also note many women consider cis to be an insult that eliminates
 womens experience as women, who've been identified as and identify as 
 women
 from birth, and are happy and even proud to be women.

 CM

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 Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.

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[Gendergap] Article: How to Edit Wikipedia: Lessons from a Female Contributor

[LB]

Published today by the Anita Borg Institute. Please share, if you're
inclined.
How to Edit Wikipedia: Lessons from a Female Contributor
http://anitaborg.org/news/blog/how-to-edit-wikipedia-lessons-from-a-female-contributor/

Lightbreather
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[Gendergap] WikiProject Women

[LB]

Well, I don't know if I did it right, but per Sarah's and Siko's
suggestion, I started this:

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/WikiProject_Women

Just bare bones for now. I will work on it some more tomorrow.

Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] Strong support for grants directly related to addressing the gender gap

[LB]

I put my name down as a volunteer back in October - October 7, to be
precise. On New Year's Eve I asked the simple question: Is it possible to
start a Wikipedia project that's open to women, or people who identify as
women?

There are a handful of people on this list who are opposed to the idea, but
I for one would have loved such a thing when I first started actively
editing. Further, upon reading WP:PROJECT and nothing jumps out at as
prohibiting a WP:WOMEN project. Sarah Stierch suggested proposing it.
Heather Walls, who designed the Teahouse, could maybe help to make a
similar, women-only space? I would be very much interested in helping with
such a project, but I don't know where to start.

*First thing*, I suppose, would be a broad survey to see if other Wikipedia
women would be interested in a project tasked by women, for women, to recruit,
encourage, and support other women editors. *Not* about any specific
topics, or points-of-view - because I think women's interests and POVs are
as varied as men's - but to increase the numbers of women editing, and to
provide a refuge when you just want to talk *with other women* about
whatever it is you want to talk about that's WP related. Because even
though I believe we may share interests and POVs with men, I think (and the
evidence shows) that women *in general* (that is, far more women than men)
prefer a different communication style than has developed here under 85% to
90% male participation.

Lightbreather

On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 11:06 AM, Siko Bouterse sboute...@wikimedia.org
wrote:

 Thanks for putting this out here, Risker. I've been waiting for my blood
 pressure to drop a bit before posting a happy announcement of the plan to
 this list  :) Glad to hear that folks are excited. I'm really looking
 forward to what comes next!

 We're going to need some help to make this first campaign happen, so next
 week I'll be back with a bit of a more formal ask and some further details
 about ways to get involved in the pre-campaign planning we're doing in
 January and February.

 One thing to think about: we'll want some extra volunteers with gender-gap
 experience to serve on the committee helping select these grants. If you
 aren't planning to execute a project yourself, but would like to help
 others develop ideas into proposals and proposals into grants, please be in
 touch with me, or join on the project page:


 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IdeaLab/Inspire_Grants_%E2%80%93_Gender_gap_campaign



 On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 8:36 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 Yes! Thank you Risker for the positive energy. This is what I want in
 2015!!

 This is GREAT news!! I can't wait to see what happens.

 -Sarah

 On Tue, Jan 6, 2015 at 8:21 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 (Changing the perspective on the previous thread a bit)

 Well, it's official - the Individual Engagement Grants (IEG) and Project
  Event Grants (PEG) will be focused almost exclusively for a 3-month
 period on providing financial support and mentorship for requests focused
 specifically at addressing the gender gap.  The funding allocated -
 $250,000, roughly equivalent to the annual budget of many large chapters -
 is very significant and should help to promote good experimentation
 throughout this area.

 If you've been thinking about a project you'd like to organize that is
 specifically gender-gap related, now's the time to start drafting your
 ideas and asking for support from the broader grants and GG community.
 You'll need to describe your idea, set some targets, and collaborate with
 others as a team for the best chance of success.

 In particular, IEGs are intended to be experiments, and there's a
 recognition that some are going to be successful, while others (even if
 they look good on paper) are not going to produce results.  The key is
 ensuring that there is some learning derived from the experiments.  Don't
 be afraid to try something!

 Risker/Anne

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 Siko Bouterse
 Wikimedia Foundation, Inc.

 sboute...@wikimedia.org

 *Imagine a world in which every single human being can freely share in the
 sum of all knowledge. *
 *Donate https://donate.wikimedia.org or click the edit button today,
 and help us make it a reality!*

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Re: [Gendergap] WikiProject Women

[LB]

I hear you. But I think there are women who would be interested in a
women-only space. There are plenty of places on-wiki to talk with men only,
or women and men, but no place to talk with women only. For some women,
especially women who have been abused or harassed, a women-only space feels
safer, and they might not venture editing at all if there is no place to
take refuge.
On Jan 1, 2015 6:40 PM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

 Okay, deep breath. I have to say this... I am not a fan of women only
 groups and I probably wouldn't join.

 I don't live in a women only world and I wouldn't want to.

 Yes we do get some men on GGTF and elsewhere who are either MRA and would
 rather see us all rot, or they fall into the category of telling us what is
 relevant or not in terms of the discussion, and that is frustrating. But
 equally there are men who do not presume to understand our experiences and
 are embarrassed that they belong to the same gender as the MRA and the
 I-know-best merchants.

 I would not want to join a group that barred entry to this second group.
 Frankly we this is fight where we need all the genuine help we can get.

 Marie

 --
 Date: Thu, 1 Jan 2015 20:16:04 -0500
 From: risker...@gmail.com
 To: gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org
 Subject: Re: [Gendergap] WikiProject Women

 So perhaps the question is how many women would be interested in
 participating in off-wiki...I'm not really sure entirely what exactly it
 is, although hypothetically it's mentoring and... well, I keep coming back
 to I'm not sure what it is.

 I have a hard enough time keeping up with my current load, and am not
 particularly interested in going to more venues, but I may be the exception.

 Risker/Anne

 On 1 January 2015 at 19:49, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thank you, Heather! This is what we run into on the WP GGTF every time we
 open something up for discussion.

 All I wanted to discuss the possibility of such a group. Are there any
 policies that would make it impossible? How would we determine who is a
 woman? Could inclusion/exclusion be automated? What might the benefits of
 such a group be? The liabilities? What would its scope be? It's goals?

 Can we discuss this?
 On Jan 1, 2015 5:30 PM, Heather Walls hwa...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Tim Davenport shoehu...@gmail.com wrote:

 I for one would immediately be running the project through the Miscellany
 for Deletion process.

 You don't see anything slightly wrong with this idea? Really?!?

 This is 100% unadulterated identity politics.


 You say that as if identity politics is somehow inherently negative.



 Tim Davenport
 Carrite on WP /// Randy from Boise on WPO
 Corvallis, OR


 Is it simply impossible to start a Wikipedia project that's open to
 women,
 or people who identify as women? (I'm sorry if I don't use the correct
 terms, but I haven't kept up with them in recent years.)

 I mean if we did it... what would the consequences be?

 Lightbreather

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 149 New Montgomery Street I San Francisco, CA 94105
 heat...@wikimedia.org

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Re: [Gendergap] WikiProject Women

[LB]

My question was about having an on-wiki, women-only project. Just
discussing if/how it could be done.
On Jan 1, 2015 6:16 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 So perhaps the question is how many women would be interested in
 participating in off-wiki...I'm not really sure entirely what exactly it
 is, although hypothetically it's mentoring and... well, I keep coming back
 to I'm not sure what it is.

 I have a hard enough time keeping up with my current load, and am not
 particularly interested in going to more venues, but I may be the exception.

 Risker/Anne

 On 1 January 2015 at 19:49, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Thank you, Heather! This is what we run into on the WP GGTF every time we
 open something up for discussion.

 All I wanted to discuss the possibility of such a group. Are there any
 policies that would make it impossible? How would we determine who is a
 woman? Could inclusion/exclusion be automated? What might the benefits of
 such a group be? The liabilities? What would its scope be? It's goals?

 Can we discuss this?
 On Jan 1, 2015 5:30 PM, Heather Walls hwa...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 On Thu, Jan 1, 2015 at 9:59 AM, Tim Davenport shoehu...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 I for one would immediately be running the project through the
 Miscellany for Deletion process.

 You don't see anything slightly wrong with this idea? Really?!?

 This is 100% unadulterated identity politics.


 You say that as if identity politics is somehow inherently negative.



 Tim Davenport
 Carrite on WP /// Randy from Boise on WPO
 Corvallis, OR


 Is it simply impossible to start a Wikipedia project that's open to
 women,
 or people who identify as women? (I'm sorry if I don't use the correct
 terms, but I haven't kept up with them in recent years.)

 I mean if we did it... what would the consequences be?

 Lightbreather

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 --
 *Heather Walls*
 Communications Design Manager I Wikimedia Foundation
 149 New Montgomery Street I San Francisco, CA 94105
 heat...@wikimedia.org

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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[LB]

Is it simply impossible to start a Wikipedia project that's open to women,
or people who identify as women? (I'm sorry if I don't use the correct
terms, but I haven't kept up with them in recent years.)

I mean if we did it... what would the consequences be?


Lightbreather

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 7:43 PM, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Why abandon it? Let's reclaim it. Just ignore those who try to distract
 and derail. There are sanctions so no nastiness, but nastiness is not my
 usual style anyway.


 ​I don't know whether it's better to abandon, reclaim or move it. But it
 has been a lesson in how deep Wikipedia's sexism runs. Any journalists in
 future wanting examples of it need only read those archives and the
 dispute-resolution threads that failed to deal with it (which one of us
 ought to compile at some point).

 Marie, I saw the suggestion on GGTF that women might prefer to edit
 [f]ashion, cookery, domestic affairs, childrearing. Is it worth
 continuing with it when that's what we have to deal with?

 Sarah

 ​


 On Dec 30, 2014 10:25 AM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

 We're abandoning the GGTF on Wikipedia? Fair enough.

 It was just that I had an editor accused me of radical feminism POV
 pushing on GGTF via my talk page (I dared to say that it was interesting
 that the example topics that he thought women would be interested in
 editing, other than feminism, might be *fashion, cookery, domestic
 affairs and childrearing* rather than *science, business, filmmaking
 or politics*). There was then this follow-on swipe on GGTF.

  ...one of the reasonable first steps toward seeing what women in
 wikipedia thinks needs to be done most would be to actively ask women who
 have self-identified as women what content of particular interest to women
 might be underrepresented or undercovered here. Those women would
 presumably be in a better position to clearly state their concerns than
 would be individuals who can only speculate on them or draw potentially
 flawed assumptions based on limited previous personal experience.

 So, my potentially flawed assumptions and limited previous personal
 experience are surplus to requirements at the GGTF. The plan now seems to
 go out and find answers that fit a pre-existing narrative about what is
 causing the Gender Gap.

 So...  I believe the Gender Gap is caused by women who want to write
 about knitting thinking that Wikipedia does not welcome articles about
 knitting. I will create a skewed survey to fit this narrative and get the
 right kind of women to fill it in and prove my pre-conceived notions
 correct.

 I really don't see the point of it. If you ask 1,000 female editors,
 What kind of articles do you like to edit?, then you'll get 1,000 answers
 with a wide variety of topics. What would that prove? Suppose you find 90%
 of them edit traditionally feminine topics, what conclusion would you draw
 from it? Would it prove that they clearly prefer to edit those topics, or
 those are the topics that they feel less likely to encounter intimidation,
 or a combination of the two? I just think the GGTF board is currently being
 used to promote a truly pointless exercise.

 Marie


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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[LB]

Well, I'm brainstorming, but yes... a project that is only open to women or
those who identify as women. And yes, that would mean identifying (via
one's she edits preference - as I know of no other ways to identify,
right?) Hypothetically, is there anything to prevent us from doing it?

(I just went and re-identified as she edits. I had turned that off for a
while when I first started getting harassed, but WTF. I'm tired of hiding.
I'll bet other women are tired of hiding, too.)


Lightbreather

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Could you please clarify, Lightbreather?  Do you mean a wikiproject that
 is *only* open to women/those who identify as women?  Because all
 wikiprojects are open to all interested editors, generally speaking.

 Would that not require editors to have to publicly self-identify?  How
 would that be done?

 Risker/Anne

 On 31 December 2014 at 10:31, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is it simply impossible to start a Wikipedia project that's open to
 women, or people who identify as women? (I'm sorry if I don't use the
 correct terms, but I haven't kept up with them in recent years.)

 I mean if we did it... what would the consequences be?


 Lightbreather

 On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 7:43 PM, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Why abandon it? Let's reclaim it. Just ignore those who try to distract
 and derail. There are sanctions so no nastiness, but nastiness is not my
 usual style anyway.


 ​I don't know whether it's better to abandon, reclaim or move it. But it
 has been a lesson in how deep Wikipedia's sexism runs. Any journalists in
 future wanting examples of it need only read those archives and the
 dispute-resolution threads that failed to deal with it (which one of us
 ought to compile at some point).

 Marie, I saw the suggestion on GGTF that women might prefer to edit
 [f]ashion, cookery, domestic affairs, childrearing. Is it worth
 continuing with it when that's what we have to deal with?

 Sarah

 ​


 On Dec 30, 2014 10:25 AM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

 We're abandoning the GGTF on Wikipedia? Fair enough.

 It was just that I had an editor accused me of radical feminism POV
 pushing on GGTF via my talk page (I dared to say that it was interesting
 that the example topics that he thought women would be interested in
 editing, other than feminism, might be *fashion, cookery, domestic
 affairs and childrearing* rather than *science, business,
 filmmaking or politics*). There was then this follow-on swipe on
 GGTF.

  ...one of the reasonable first steps toward seeing what women in
 wikipedia thinks needs to be done most would be to actively ask women who
 have self-identified as women what content of particular interest to women
 might be underrepresented or undercovered here. Those women would
 presumably be in a better position to clearly state their concerns than
 would be individuals who can only speculate on them or draw potentially
 flawed assumptions based on limited previous personal experience.

 So, my potentially flawed assumptions and limited previous personal
 experience are surplus to requirements at the GGTF. The plan now seems to
 go out and find answers that fit a pre-existing narrative about what is
 causing the Gender Gap.

 So...  I believe the Gender Gap is caused by women who want to write
 about knitting thinking that Wikipedia does not welcome articles about
 knitting. I will create a skewed survey to fit this narrative and get the
 right kind of women to fill it in and prove my pre-conceived notions
 correct.

 I really don't see the point of it. If you ask 1,000 female editors,
 What kind of articles do you like to edit?, then you'll get 1,000 
 answers
 with a wide variety of topics. What would that prove? Suppose you find 90%
 of them edit traditionally feminine topics, what conclusion would you draw
 from it? Would it prove that they clearly prefer to edit those topics, or
 those are the topics that they feel less likely to encounter intimidation,
 or a combination of the two? I just think the GGTF board is currently 
 being
 used to promote a truly pointless exercise.

 Marie


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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[LB]

I joined the Systers mailing list - women only - administered by the Anita
Borg Institute some months ago, and it basically involved swearing that you
are female. There are a few moderators who manages the list.

Lightbreather

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Could you please clarify, Lightbreather?  Do you mean a wikiproject that
 is *only* open to women/those who identify as women?  Because all
 wikiprojects are open to all interested editors, generally speaking.

 Would that not require editors to have to publicly self-identify?  How
 would that be done?

 Risker/Anne

 On 31 December 2014 at 10:31, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is it simply impossible to start a Wikipedia project that's open to
 women, or people who identify as women? (I'm sorry if I don't use the
 correct terms, but I haven't kept up with them in recent years.)

 I mean if we did it... what would the consequences be?


 Lightbreather

 On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 7:43 PM, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Why abandon it? Let's reclaim it. Just ignore those who try to distract
 and derail. There are sanctions so no nastiness, but nastiness is not my
 usual style anyway.


 ​I don't know whether it's better to abandon, reclaim or move it. But it
 has been a lesson in how deep Wikipedia's sexism runs. Any journalists in
 future wanting examples of it need only read those archives and the
 dispute-resolution threads that failed to deal with it (which one of us
 ought to compile at some point).

 Marie, I saw the suggestion on GGTF that women might prefer to edit
 [f]ashion, cookery, domestic affairs, childrearing. Is it worth
 continuing with it when that's what we have to deal with?

 Sarah

 ​


 On Dec 30, 2014 10:25 AM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

 We're abandoning the GGTF on Wikipedia? Fair enough.

 It was just that I had an editor accused me of radical feminism POV
 pushing on GGTF via my talk page (I dared to say that it was interesting
 that the example topics that he thought women would be interested in
 editing, other than feminism, might be *fashion, cookery, domestic
 affairs and childrearing* rather than *science, business,
 filmmaking or politics*). There was then this follow-on swipe on
 GGTF.

  ...one of the reasonable first steps toward seeing what women in
 wikipedia thinks needs to be done most would be to actively ask women who
 have self-identified as women what content of particular interest to women
 might be underrepresented or undercovered here. Those women would
 presumably be in a better position to clearly state their concerns than
 would be individuals who can only speculate on them or draw potentially
 flawed assumptions based on limited previous personal experience.

 So, my potentially flawed assumptions and limited previous personal
 experience are surplus to requirements at the GGTF. The plan now seems to
 go out and find answers that fit a pre-existing narrative about what is
 causing the Gender Gap.

 So...  I believe the Gender Gap is caused by women who want to write
 about knitting thinking that Wikipedia does not welcome articles about
 knitting. I will create a skewed survey to fit this narrative and get the
 right kind of women to fill it in and prove my pre-conceived notions
 correct.

 I really don't see the point of it. If you ask 1,000 female editors,
 What kind of articles do you like to edit?, then you'll get 1,000 
 answers
 with a wide variety of topics. What would that prove? Suppose you find 90%
 of them edit traditionally feminine topics, what conclusion would you draw
 from it? Would it prove that they clearly prefer to edit those topics, or
 those are the topics that they feel less likely to encounter intimidation,
 or a combination of the two? I just think the GGTF board is currently 
 being
 used to promote a truly pointless exercise.

 Marie


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[Gendergap] Women of GGTF

[LB]

You may be interested in the Systers forum at the Anita Borg Institute:

http://anitaborg.org/get-involved/systers/

It is women only. Sorry guys.

Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[LB]

I know you can use the they template to see if a user prefer he, she,
or they. It seems like that could be queried to find out who identifies
as she and send out an invitation to join the women-only project... if
such a thing were created. In addition, a notice could go up saying that
women editors can join the project, and letting them know that to identify
as women they must A) set their preference to she, and B) swear that they
are indeed a woman or identify as a woman.

Again, just brainstorming.

Also, I like what Marie mentioned yesterday. It seems like we should be
capturing gender info when users register, giving them the option to be
public about it or not I guess. But for demographics, we ought to be
capturing that data.


Lightbreather

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 9:07 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Ahh.  I am not certain how public that particular preference is; I'm
 fairly certain there's no public list.  The preference was installed on all
 WMF wikis at the request of projects where there is a different term for
 user depending on the self-identified gender of the user. (For example,
 the user pages of self-identified female editors on our German projects
 uses the feminine term for user.)  Not quite sure what the result is on
 English Wikipedia - is there a list somewhere?

 Risker/Anne

 On 31 December 2014 at 10:59, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Well, I'm brainstorming, but yes... a project that is only open to women
 or those who identify as women. And yes, that would mean identifying (via
 one's she edits preference - as I know of no other ways to identify,
 right?) Hypothetically, is there anything to prevent us from doing it?

 (I just went and re-identified as she edits. I had turned that off for
 a while when I first started getting harassed, but WTF. I'm tired of
 hiding. I'll bet other women are tired of hiding, too.)


 Lightbreather

 On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Could you please clarify, Lightbreather?  Do you mean a wikiproject that
 is *only* open to women/those who identify as women?  Because all
 wikiprojects are open to all interested editors, generally speaking.

 Would that not require editors to have to publicly self-identify?  How
 would that be done?

 Risker/Anne

 On 31 December 2014 at 10:31, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is it simply impossible to start a Wikipedia project that's open to
 women, or people who identify as women? (I'm sorry if I don't use the
 correct terms, but I haven't kept up with them in recent years.)

 I mean if we did it... what would the consequences be?


 Lightbreather

 On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 7:43 PM, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Why abandon it? Let's reclaim it. Just ignore those who try to
 distract and derail. There are sanctions so no nastiness, but nastiness 
 is
 not my usual style anyway.


 ​I don't know whether it's better to abandon, reclaim or move it. But
 it has been a lesson in how deep Wikipedia's sexism runs. Any journalists
 in future wanting examples of it need only read those archives and the
 dispute-resolution threads that failed to deal with it (which one of us
 ought to compile at some point).

 Marie, I saw the suggestion on GGTF that women might prefer to edit
 [f]ashion, cookery, domestic affairs, childrearing. Is it worth
 continuing with it when that's what we have to deal with?

 Sarah

 ​


 On Dec 30, 2014 10:25 AM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

 We're abandoning the GGTF on Wikipedia? Fair enough.

 It was just that I had an editor accused me of radical feminism POV
 pushing on GGTF via my talk page (I dared to say that it was 
 interesting
 that the example topics that he thought women would be interested in
 editing, other than feminism, might be *fashion, cookery, domestic
 affairs and childrearing* rather than *science, business,
 filmmaking or politics*). There was then this follow-on swipe on
 GGTF.

  ...one of the reasonable first steps toward seeing what women in
 wikipedia thinks needs to be done most would be to actively ask women 
 who
 have self-identified as women what content of particular interest to 
 women
 might be underrepresented or undercovered here. Those women would
 presumably be in a better position to clearly state their concerns than
 would be individuals who can only speculate on them or draw potentially
 flawed assumptions based on limited previous personal experience.

 So, my potentially flawed assumptions and limited previous personal
 experience are surplus to requirements at the GGTF. The plan now seems 
 to
 go out and find answers that fit a pre-existing narrative about what is
 causing the Gender Gap.

 So...  I believe the Gender Gap is caused by women who want to
 write about knitting thinking that Wikipedia does not welcome articles
 about knitting. I will create a skewed survey to fit this narrative and
 get the right

Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[LB]

I can imagine the complaints and hurdles. The discussion is it possible?
Could it work?

To your specific questions, if there's no page-protection option, can there
be? If it's absolutely impossible, then the moderators would have to keep
an eye on those things. Also, I think there would be parts of the project
that would be vehemently opposed, but others who wouldn't care one way or
another, and some who would welcome such a space with open arms.

I don't know about EEML. I will read that.

Again, I am brainstorming here. Discussing how it *could* work, not whether
or not it will or would.


Lightbreather

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 9:08 AM, Katherine Casey 
fluffernutter.w...@gmail.com wrote:

 Well, how would you limit participation to just those people? There's no
 page-protection option for check person's gender, then allow edits only if
 'female', and Wikipedia doesn't currently have any policies that would
 allow, like, topic bans from a Wikiproject based on gender rather than
 problematic behavior. I imagine the community would be vehemently opposed
 to such things, and for good reason. Forcing people to identify to
 participate, or sanctioning people when they've done nothing but been the
 wrong gender, are antithetical to Wikipedia's anyone can participate
 ethos.

 If you were setting something up offwiki, not in association with
 Wiki[m|p]edia, you'd be as free as anyone else to set your own criteria for
 membership, but the problem then becomes a) attracting enough high-quality
 participation b) without becoming a cabal in the style of the EEML
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Eastern_European_mailing_list
 that got people in so much trouble a few years ago.

 On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 10:59 AM, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Well, I'm brainstorming, but yes... a project that is only open to women
 or those who identify as women. And yes, that would mean identifying (via
 one's she edits preference - as I know of no other ways to identify,
 right?) Hypothetically, is there anything to prevent us from doing it?

 (I just went and re-identified as she edits. I had turned that off for
 a while when I first started getting harassed, but WTF. I'm tired of
 hiding. I'll bet other women are tired of hiding, too.)


 Lightbreather

 On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 8:50 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Could you please clarify, Lightbreather?  Do you mean a wikiproject that
 is *only* open to women/those who identify as women?  Because all
 wikiprojects are open to all interested editors, generally speaking.

 Would that not require editors to have to publicly self-identify?  How
 would that be done?

 Risker/Anne

 On 31 December 2014 at 10:31, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Is it simply impossible to start a Wikipedia project that's open to
 women, or people who identify as women? (I'm sorry if I don't use the
 correct terms, but I haven't kept up with them in recent years.)

 I mean if we did it... what would the consequences be?


 Lightbreather

 On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 10:45 PM, Sarah slimvir...@gmail.com wrote:

 On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 7:43 PM, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 Why abandon it? Let's reclaim it. Just ignore those who try to
 distract and derail. There are sanctions so no nastiness, but nastiness 
 is
 not my usual style anyway.


 ​I don't know whether it's better to abandon, reclaim or move it. But
 it has been a lesson in how deep Wikipedia's sexism runs. Any journalists
 in future wanting examples of it need only read those archives and the
 dispute-resolution threads that failed to deal with it (which one of us
 ought to compile at some point).

 Marie, I saw the suggestion on GGTF that women might prefer to edit
 [f]ashion, cookery, domestic affairs, childrearing. Is it worth
 continuing with it when that's what we have to deal with?

 Sarah

 ​


 On Dec 30, 2014 10:25 AM, Marie Earley eir...@hotmail.com wrote:

 We're abandoning the GGTF on Wikipedia? Fair enough.

 It was just that I had an editor accused me of radical feminism POV
 pushing on GGTF via my talk page (I dared to say that it was 
 interesting
 that the example topics that he thought women would be interested in
 editing, other than feminism, might be *fashion, cookery, domestic
 affairs and childrearing* rather than *science, business,
 filmmaking or politics*). There was then this follow-on swipe on
 GGTF.

  ...one of the reasonable first steps toward seeing what women in
 wikipedia thinks needs to be done most would be to actively ask women 
 who
 have self-identified as women what content of particular interest to 
 women
 might be underrepresented or undercovered here. Those women would
 presumably be in a better position to clearly state their concerns than
 would be individuals who can only speculate on them or draw potentially
 flawed assumptions based on limited previous personal experience.

 So, my potentially flawed assumptions and limited previous

[Gendergap] WP:WOMEN

[LB]

So, I'm reading Wikipedia:WikiProject
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject and nothing is
jumping out at me as prohibiting a WP:WOMEN project. It says,

A *WikiProject* is a group https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Social_group of
contributors who want to work together as a team
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Team to improve Wikipedia. These groups
often focus on a specific topic area (for example, women's history
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women%27s_history), a specific location or
a specific kind of task (for example, checking newly created pages).

Couldn't our task be to recruit, encourage, and support women editors?

Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[LB]

I've started two separate mailing list topics today  - Women of GGTF and
WP:WOMEN - but they haven't posted. You do send to
Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org, right? I think that's what I've used before.

Lightbreather

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:


 On 31 December 2014 at 11:18, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 I can imagine the complaints and hurdles. The discussion is it possible?
 Could it work?

 To your specific questions, if there's no page-protection option, can
 there be? If it's absolutely impossible, then the moderators would have to
 keep an eye on those things. Also, I think there would be parts of the
 project that would be vehemently opposed, but others who wouldn't care one
 way or another, and some who would welcome such a space with open arms.

 I don't know about EEML. I will read that.




 The EEML (Eastern European Mailing List) was an invitation-only mailing
 list populated by a group of editors who supported each other in content
 contributions, deletion discussions, and other on-wiki activities related
 generally to the Eastern European region of the world (including articles
 on the  history, economics, politics,  notable persons, geography, etc. of
 the region).  The mailing list was non-public.  Almost all participants on
 the list were very significantly sanctioned (including some permanent bans,
 some topic bans, and a desysop) because of the attempt to manage content in
 a non-transparent way, in addition to the entire canvassing aspect.

 There was once a Wikichix mailing list, moderated and very similar to the
 one described by Lightbreather.  It died a slow death several years ago
 because, essentially, nobody really had much to say there, absent the
 ability to discuss actual content.

 Risker/Anne

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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[LB]

As I'm imagining this right now, it would be public. It would be open to
those who've identified as women to edit, and to others to read. I suppose
it might touch upon content issues, but those would more likely go to the
project and article talk pages for specific subjects and topics.

What its focus would be at first would be to recruit more women. To mentor.
To discuss policies, guidelines, essays of interest to women. Since, per
WP:PROJ, a project has no special rights or privileges, it can't impose
anything on articles, policies, etc. It would be a place where women could
talk without men - even well-intentioned men - jumping in and commandeering
or derailing the discussions. It could be held to a high standard of
civility - or even simply to the published civility policy that is
overlooked elsewhere on the project.


Lightbreather

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:


 On 31 December 2014 at 11:18, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 I can imagine the complaints and hurdles. The discussion is it possible?
 Could it work?

 To your specific questions, if there's no page-protection option, can
 there be? If it's absolutely impossible, then the moderators would have to
 keep an eye on those things. Also, I think there would be parts of the
 project that would be vehemently opposed, but others who wouldn't care one
 way or another, and some who would welcome such a space with open arms.

 I don't know about EEML. I will read that.




 The EEML (Eastern European Mailing List) was an invitation-only mailing
 list populated by a group of editors who supported each other in content
 contributions, deletion discussions, and other on-wiki activities related
 generally to the Eastern European region of the world (including articles
 on the  history, economics, politics,  notable persons, geography, etc. of
 the region).  The mailing list was non-public.  Almost all participants on
 the list were very significantly sanctioned (including some permanent bans,
 some topic bans, and a desysop) because of the attempt to manage content in
 a non-transparent way, in addition to the entire canvassing aspect.

 There was once a Wikichix mailing list, moderated and very similar to the
 one described by Lightbreather.  It died a slow death several years ago
 because, essentially, nobody really had much to say there, absent the
 ability to discuss actual content.

 Risker/Anne

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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[LB]

A women's project might be a nice complement to the collaborative and the
teahouse. The collaborative is a great choice for women who like to use
Facebook and Twitter, but some don't. The teahouse is OK (and I'd like to
offer myself as a mentor for women editors there), but even there the
testosterone can run high sometimes.

Lightbreather

On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 9:56 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Some thoughts...some ok some negative about a project for women.

 Spaces that promote sisterhood and women only that are public generally
 have overwhelming woman. participation and men often play the role of
 observers.

 That's why I created the WikiWomens Collab. While men like it, it's
 extremely rare they interact with it. A place can be public and be focused
 on women.

 But, I do think it will be a challenge on EN WP. That is why WWC was a
 social media campaign. Women are there. There is a wiki women's group on
 Facebook too and a few guys have joined but they don't interact on it. its
 clearly for Women by women (those identifying as women).

 I am concerned about a shit storm starting a woman centric space on WP. As
 long as there is research to prove to the community it might work. You have
 to show it - we had to do it with the Teahouse. It was nominated for
 deletion when it was created!!

 I put together an entire project page on meta with this research
 someplace..

 There is also an editor retention project already. People will ask - why
 not just work in that space?

 Also, the wikiprojects for WP feminism, women art/science/writers are also
 overwhelmingly female. I recruited at the beginning but now I am just burnt
 out so I don't spend time doing it..and the subject gets little press
 coverage anymore so cries to engaging women have lowered in the press. So
 this will require more on the boots support. And how will you promote it -
 especially if you don't know the gender of editors. I guess you can build
 it and they will come.

 So I would think hard before creating something new and thing about what
 already exists and how to leverage it. And if you cannot leverage it...try
 it.

 I spent a year of my life at WMF working on all of this. We had that idea
 and canned it and ended up creating the Teahouse. That was created to
 welcome and help new editors with research focusing on women. It worked. It
 sounds like you would just be making another Teahouse but for women.

 It's funny seeing this conversation happening again. :) it's good though

 Sarah
 (Sent from my phone)
 On Dec 31, 2014 8:38 AM, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 I've started two separate mailing list topics today  - Women of GGTF and
 WP:WOMEN - but they haven't posted. You do send to
 Gendergap@lists.wikimedia.org, right? I think that's what I've used
 before.

 Lightbreather

 On Wed, Dec 31, 2014 at 9:25 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:


 On 31 December 2014 at 11:18, LB lightbreath...@gmail.com wrote:

 I can imagine the complaints and hurdles. The discussion is it
 possible? Could it work?

 To your specific questions, if there's no page-protection option, can
 there be? If it's absolutely impossible, then the moderators would have to
 keep an eye on those things. Also, I think there would be parts of the
 project that would be vehemently opposed, but others who wouldn't care one
 way or another, and some who would welcome such a space with open arms.

 I don't know about EEML. I will read that.




 The EEML (Eastern European Mailing List) was an invitation-only mailing
 list populated by a group of editors who supported each other in content
 contributions, deletion discussions, and other on-wiki activities related
 generally to the Eastern European region of the world (including articles
 on the  history, economics, politics,  notable persons, geography, etc. of
 the region).  The mailing list was non-public.  Almost all participants on
 the list were very significantly sanctioned (including some permanent bans,
 some topic bans, and a desysop) because of the attempt to manage content in
 a non-transparent way, in addition to the entire canvassing aspect.

 There was once a Wikichix mailing list, moderated and very similar to
 the one described by Lightbreather.  It died a slow death several years ago
 because, essentially, nobody really had much to say there, absent the
 ability to discuss actual content.

 Risker/Anne

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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[LB]

Honestly, I'm leery about participating on this list a lot of the time
because I don't know who everyone is - that is the name they use on this
list doesn't match their name on Wikipedia. There is one I've figured out,
and he is one of the ones who has said some very bad things about me on
talk pages. Same thing with the Facebook group. At first I was excited to
join because it's apparently for women only, but two women I reached out to
there did not help me, and I worry that there could be people there
pretending to be someone else.

I have experienced so much hostility on Wikipedia - which I never expected
before I joined, I was so naive - that my trust is shaken and every other
editor, or mailing-list or FB member, could be a spy or a joe job.

After the recent ArbCom my faith in the WP dispute resolution system is at
an all-time low, but at least there it's all documented publicly and I've
come to know who most of my enemies (for lack of a better word) are.

I'm going out for the day soon, so I may not see replies (if there are any)
right away - but I will read them.

Lightbreather

On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 3:25 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
wrote:

 +1 to that.
 My tips are:

 1) No talk pages if I can avoid it
 2) Other channels (sorry people, but not all revolutions can take place in
 front of everyone)
 3) Social media

 I get more value asking for help on Twitter and Facebook than I do on any
 other medium.

 ANd that's why the WikiWomen's Collaborative was created - social media
 brings more females (since we use it more than males!).

 -Sarah

 On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 2:07 PM, disgruntled grognard slowki...@gmail.com
  wrote:

 yep,
 let's study some more, not all men, let's recruit more pipeline...

 i tend to edit in article space.
 talk space and even project talk are dysfunctional (waste of time)
 people seeking to disrupt, can only on wiki.

 i tend to organize on facebook, twitter, meetup etc.
 where there is adult supervision.

 On Mon, Dec 29, 2014 at 1:45 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
  wrote:

  On 12/29/2014 12:31 PM, Marie Earley wrote:

 Is it possible to post some of the stuff that has been mentioned on here
 on the GGTF talk page
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force

 It feels like the two have nothing in common at the moment. There's a
 whole load of why don't we survey women and find out what they like to
 edit / give women their own noticeboard / review the scope of the project
 - type rhetoric.

 Rather than wade in and argue (it's pointless, I got accused of 'radical
 feminism' POV pushing for my trouble), can some of the stuff about grants,
 meet ups etc. and replies be posted so we can move on, and all of the
 let's rip it up and start again stuff can make its way into the archive?

 Marie

 Everything you see is just a variation of what was happening all summer,
 with the pro-GGTF editors managing to keep their tempers against various
 attempts by anti-project editors to disrupt the project by trying to narrow
 and control the scope (as some women explicitly have complained):

 *general nitpicking of statement by a woman/supporter of project that
 supports the original vision of being both about increasing number of
 articles about women/topics of interest to women and increasing number of
 women, including by dealing with issues that turn women off (both software
 and behavior issues). (One editor summarized these past comments here:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:The_Vintage_Feminist/GGTF%27s_re-boot
 The comments are being challenged.) And of course various accusations of
 defacto sexism for those who complain about this, as Marie alludes to above

 *Opposition to the idea of using the page to get other editors to help
 with new articles about women unless the articles are already 100% in
 compliance with every policy imaginable.

 *proposal to divide GGTF into two projects, one for articles about
 women, the other for getting more women and behaviorproblems; divide and
 conquor is the strategy here and I'm sure the second would quickly be put
 up for deletion, widdling the project down to nothing

 *proposal to invite anything and everything regarding women (including
 perhaps through womens noticeboard), which could be used to water GGTF down
 to nothing regarding a gender gap by flooding with less relevant concerns

 *continuing contention that there is no evidence that there's a problem
 despite these two existing pages:

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force/research

 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force/media
 It would help if

 *Past edits at GGTF show that one or more of the alleged women posting
 now are recruits of editors against the project from the arbitration.

 We'll see what happens...

 CM


 

Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[LB]

I think there is very little that Carol and I would agree on when it comes
to subjects and article topics, and we definitely have different editing
styles, but I absolutely agree with her on one thing, and that is the
hostility on Wikipedia is a turn-off to a lot of women and men. I would
much rather be editing articles most of the time, and the only reason that
I got into civility policy and related issues is because of what I've
experienced and observed.

There are insulting women on WP, but I believe they're either women who are
that way by nature, or who have adopted their attitudes to be one of the
guys. They'll throw other women under the bus in a heartbeat.

Here's the thing: Even if we attract scores of women to come and edit, if
the environment stays the same, most of them will leave (and a lot of the
men who come during the same time). If you're running an exclusionary club
and you want a more diverse membership - it's not just enough to throw the
doors open and *say* come on in. You don't ask your new guests to change
their ways, you ask yourselves: What can we change about our club that will
help these new members to feel welcome?


Lightbreather

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 8:15 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Carollet's just deconstruct what you're saying here.

 If we were to take the words female and male and women and men out
 of it entirely, would it sum up one of the major issues in editor
 retention?  I'm going to be honest, I've read a genuinely disproportionate
 number of insulting edits made by women (as a percentage of overall edits
 by editors I know to be women), and it's something that needs to be kept in
 mind; while the overwhelming majority of editors are male, I've not seen
 any evidence that a male editor is any more or less likely to behave badly
 than a female editor.  It's just more obvious because they outnumber us 10
 to 1.

 Risker/Anne

 On 30 December 2014 at 09:57, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
 wrote:

 As long as (mostly male) Wikipedia editors are allowed to insult and
 harass editors whose edits they oppose for whatever reason Wikipedia cannot
 retain women, no matter how much they follow the suggestions below.
 (Unless of course they focus on shaming the WMF until it uses its terms of
 service against offending editors and administrators and arbitrators and
 that is my particular interest at this point.)

 Since few women have any interest in editing in a hostile editing
 environment.  Many males leave quickly for the same reason.  This is
 especially true in political, economic or current events areas which too
 many males consider their fiefdoms where womens' input not appreciated. And
 FYI just 2% of males is too many IF they are allowed to get away with
 insults and harassment.

 So reigning in the worst offenders on Wikipedia - without punishing even
 harder those who oppose - or EVEN lose their tempers about - their offenses
 is necessary.

 On 12/30/2014 8:30 AM, Tim Davenport wrote:

 Ms. Stierch's comments are exactly on target.

 Do the GGTF-type organizing off wiki, not on-wiki. That's not the place
 for it.

 Start your own message board akin to Wikipediocracy. Organize (and vent)
 there.

 Use Facebook, etc.

 Concentrate on developing new feminist editors, helping them through the
 steep learning curve, with an emphasis on content, content, content. Nobody
 is going to have a problem with that.


 Tim Davenport
 Carrite on WP /// Randy from Boise on WPO
 Corvallis, OR



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Re: [Gendergap] GGTF talk page

[LB]

I suggest that an environment made up of *mostly* men is going to behave in
a way that is *mostly* male.

The Argument Culture
http://www.mitpressjournals.org/doi/abs/10.1162/DAED_a_00211?journalCode=daed#.VKLQgF4AA
by Deborah Tannen PhD

Lightbreather

On Tue, Dec 30, 2014 at 8:15 AM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Carollet's just deconstruct what you're saying here.

 If we were to take the words female and male and women and men out
 of it entirely, would it sum up one of the major issues in editor
 retention?  I'm going to be honest, I've read a genuinely disproportionate
 number of insulting edits made by women (as a percentage of overall edits
 by editors I know to be women), and it's something that needs to be kept in
 mind; while the overwhelming majority of editors are male, I've not seen
 any evidence that a male editor is any more or less likely to behave badly
 than a female editor.  It's just more obvious because they outnumber us 10
 to 1.

 Risker/Anne

 On 30 December 2014 at 09:57, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
 wrote:

 As long as (mostly male) Wikipedia editors are allowed to insult and
 harass editors whose edits they oppose for whatever reason Wikipedia cannot
 retain women, no matter how much they follow the suggestions below.
 (Unless of course they focus on shaming the WMF until it uses its terms of
 service against offending editors and administrators and arbitrators and
 that is my particular interest at this point.)

 Since few women have any interest in editing in a hostile editing
 environment.  Many males leave quickly for the same reason.  This is
 especially true in political, economic or current events areas which too
 many males consider their fiefdoms where womens' input not appreciated. And
 FYI just 2% of males is too many IF they are allowed to get away with
 insults and harassment.

 So reigning in the worst offenders on Wikipedia - without punishing even
 harder those who oppose - or EVEN lose their tempers about - their offenses
 is necessary.

 On 12/30/2014 8:30 AM, Tim Davenport wrote:

 Ms. Stierch's comments are exactly on target.

 Do the GGTF-type organizing off wiki, not on-wiki. That's not the place
 for it.

 Start your own message board akin to Wikipediocracy. Organize (and vent)
 there.

 Use Facebook, etc.

 Concentrate on developing new feminist editors, helping them through the
 steep learning curve, with an emphasis on content, content, content. Nobody
 is going to have a problem with that.


 Tim Davenport
 Carrite on WP /// Randy from Boise on WPO
 Corvallis, OR



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Re: [Gendergap] Rosiestep in Huffington Post (yay good news)

[LB]

Makes me smile.

Lightbreather

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 11:01 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
wrote:

 yay rays of sunshine :)


 http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/netha-hussain/rosie-stephenson-the-woma_b_6302636.html

 --

 Sarah Stierch

 -

 Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.

 www.sarahstierch.com

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Re: [Gendergap] ya'll are in slate

[LB]

Excellent!


Lightbreather

On Thu, Dec 11, 2014 at 2:34 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
wrote:


 http://www.slate.com/articles/technology/bitwise/2014/12/wikipedia_editing_disputes_the_crowdsourced_encyclopedia_has_become_a_rancorous.html

 GENDER GAP TASK FORCE FTW


 --

 Sarah Stierch

 -

 Diverse and engaging consulting for your organization.

 www.sarahstierch.com

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Re: [Gendergap] a gender gap meet-up?

[LB]

Is there a term (like joe job) for when someone pretends to be you to get
you into trouble? In my case, after I'd already been blocked for a week, an
IP address deleted some info
https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?limit=100tagfilter=title=Special%3AContributionscontribs=usertarget=69.16.147.185namespace=tagfilter=year=2014month=12
that I'd asked to have revdeled. It's *possible* it was someone who thought
they were helping me, but it's also possible - maybe probable - that
someone did it maliciously so an admin would think I was dodging my block.


Lightbreather

On Wed, Dec 10, 2014 at 8:57 AM, Fæ fae...@gmail.com wrote:

 See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joe_job. This was a targeted attack
 on Russavia by someone deliberately pretending to be them.

 It's a malicious form of attack intended to have Wikimedians take
 action on each other in error in order to cause disruption. With more
 sophisticated spoofing going on it is something we all need to stay
 aware of.

 Fae

 On 10 December 2014 at 15:32, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
 wrote:
  Russavia claims he did not start it.
  On Dec 10, 2014 6:09 AM, regu...@gmail.com regu...@gmail.com wrote:
 ...
  Also in re gards to the google group that russavia started. I think that
  was done in good faith to allow a more interactive venue where people
 could
  chat more real time rather than in a moderated email list. So i wouldnt
 get
  too upset about the invitations to it even though some folks dont like
 him.
  I think hes just trying to be helpful.

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[Gendergap] How to vote today?

[LB]

I have been trying to get a block lifted for a week now, but my request is
at a critical point today - as I'd like to vote at WP:ACE.

I have tried the unblock and Admin help templates on my talk page, the UTRS
ticket system, and direct appeals to involved admins. Any suggestions?

For details, see:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lightbreather#Request_to_remove_1-week_unblock_extension

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Lightbreather#Question_for_administrator

Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] [Gendergap-I] GGTF interactions arbcom case has now closed

[LB]

Don't let RO close that before I can vote... which will December 7, unless
the editors who are baiting me many to get my block extended.

Lightbreather

On Thu, Dec 4, 2014 at 1:39 AM, Ryan Kaldari rkald...@wikimedia.org wrote:

 Rationalobserver has posted a survey related to the Gender Gap Task Force
 Arbitration decision on the Civility talk page:
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Civility#Survey

 Seems pretty relevant to the recent discussions here.

 Kaldari

 On Tue, Dec 2, 2014 at 1:16 AM, Russia Aviation russiaviat...@gmail.com
 wrote:

 The answer to a hypothetical query by TDA
 https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=367632.10;wap2
 Simon Tushingham [Sitush]

 I was an active user in Wikipedia for the past many many years. I had
 more than 30,000 edits to my name. From 2011, most of the sections in
 Wikipedia were under the control of organized cabals. I wrote to Jimmy
 Wales many times warning against this. But many of the users who
 voiced against this were later banned. In the section I was following,
 the leader of the Cabal was from Manchester, known by his alibi Simon
 Tushingham. Despite this guy committing all sorts of one-sided edits,
 Wales supported him. Tushingham frequently bragged in Wikipedia that
 he regularly talked to Wales in his cell phone and were good friends
 in real life. I had enough and quit Wikipedia in 2011. I know many
 more who did the same.
 Wikipedia is similar to a ponzi scheme. They publicized themselves as
 a free and unbiased online encyclopedia. Once they had enough
 following, they kicked out the old users and showed their true
 colors.

 In reply to :


 https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=User_talk:Jimbo_Walesoldid=636276109#GGTF_interactions_arbcom_case_has_now_closed

 So you won't comment on the case, but how about a hypothetical? Let's
 say there is a male editor who, after the conclusion of an arbitration
 case, begins following a female editor from the same case all over the
 site for months. When that editor is reported for this behavior and
 there is a proposal to bar the male editor from interacting with the
 female editor, another male editor comes to his defense and suggests
 if the male editor is barred from interacting with the female editor
 that maybe he will start following her around instead. After the
 proposal is passed the other male editor announces he is going to be
 doing work on Wikipedia regarding a link, which just happens to be the
 personal website of the female editor. The female editor objects and
 questions his intentions. This male editor then begins taunting her
 with personal details researched online and plainly expresses his
 intentions to write a bio about her here. Despite several other
 objections and the female editor's own protests, this male editor
 creates a draft that he explains is fully intended to be made into a
 live article all about the female editor. It is apparent that certain
 details have been cherry-picked from primary sources and articles
 about the female editor and presented in a way that is clearly aimed
 at being unflattering towards her. Despite numerous editors suggesting
 his actions are woefully inappropriate he insists that he is a
 perfectly good editor who is being neutral towards this person he
 detests. Would you consider it acceptable for the Arbitration
 Committee to ban the female editor for commenting about this male
 editor's behavior, while giving the male editor essentially nothing
 more than a warning after praising his efforts on this site?--The
 Devil's Advocate tlk. cntrb. 21:23, 1 December 2014 (UTC)

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Re: [Gendergap] What's happening at ArbCom re WP:GGTF

[LB]

I cannot believe the crap going on on that talk page now! Having watched
this case develop over the past few weeks, I finally ventured to share my
disgust with the way things ended up, and now I'm being accused of basing
my opinion *completely* on gender. Another guy chimed in to say: Some
people aren't happy unless they are 'the victim', as odd as this sounds.
The perpetual contrarian underdog. And no, I don't say this to be mean, it
is simply a fact in human behavior that some people are like that.

Both of these remarks were made by (male) admins.

This is the link:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Arbitration/Requests/Case/Gender_Gap_Task_Force/Proposed_decision#A_strong_signal_to_the_GGTF

Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] Survey re: gender gap

[LB]

Your survey came at the right time. I just quit Wikipedia.
On Oct 14, 2014 10:32 AM, Amanda Menking amenk...@uw.edu wrote:

  Hi,

  I’ve just activated a survey re: the gender gap, primarily on the EN
 Wiki: https://jfe.qualtrics.com/form/SV_cILwYSqJB58SgFn

  This survey is a part of ongoing research related to an IEG:
 https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Grants:IEG/Women_and_Wikipedia

  If you have 10-20 minutes, I would greatly appreciate your
 participation. Also, please feel free to share the link to the survey to
 editors of all sexes and genders who are not on this mailing list.

  This survey is open to ALL editors who contribute to the English
 language Wikipedia. It does not require or record your user name or real
 name.

  If you have any questions or concerns, please feel free to email me via
 amend...@uw.edu or reach out to User:Mssemantics.

  Thanks!
 Amanda Menking





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[Gendergap] Notice of a discussion the involves the GG Task Force

[LB]

There is a discussion at ANI that involves (partially) the Gender Gap Task
Force:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Administrators%27_noticeboard/Incidents#Request_administrator_to_evaluate_conduct_of_user

Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] Wikipedia and the war on women’s dignity

[LB]

I hear you, but I would very much like to see some good newsrooms (real
journalists) do regular reporting on Wikipedia. I think it would be hard on
the community at first, but ultimately would help. WP is a hostile work
environment and I for one am tired of it.

Lightbreather

On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 4:59 PM, Risker risker...@gmail.com wrote:

 Frankly, I see little value in creating a site whose goal includes
 attracting journalists - particularly given the poor quality,
 sensationalistic journalism that we've all seen reporting on anything
 Wikimedia.

 Risker/Anne


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Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[LB]

And of course, that is the nub of the problem. Women shouldn't have to keep
their heads down and write about acceptable and uncontroversial things to
avoid getting harassed. (Also, I'm not sure even editing women scientists
would be safe.)

Lightbreather

On Wed, Sep 10, 2014 at 9:15 AM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com
wrote:

 Thanks Nathan. I do concur that harassment to the level myself, Carol and
 other very active outspoken women have experienced on/off wiki is not the
 standard experience for every woman who lines up to click edit.

 It sucks that it happens. But I also always remind people - unless you are
 editing controversial subjects or pose a direct threat to the patriarchy
 you won't get messed with. Or at least not much.

 Just keep your head down and write about knitting and women scientists.
 You will be just fine...

 (With slight sarcasm :)

 Sarah

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Re: [Gendergap] The Insane Double Standard for Women Working in Tech

[LB]

Thanks!

Lightbreather

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 11:52 AM, Sydney Poore sydney.po...@gmail.com
wrote:

 This article is interesting and relevant to the gender gap issue on
 Wikipedia.
 Sydney

 The Insane Double Standard for Women Working in Tech

 http://www.inc.com/kimberly-weisul/insane-double-standard-for-tech-women.html


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Re: [Gendergap] Shining light on the gender gap by Twitter

[LB]

I'm going to keep at it, for now. Honestly, I'm tired of it being a mostly
internally discussed problem... Perhaps I'll change my mind at some point,
but that's my thinking on it at this time.

Lightbreather

On Tue, Sep 9, 2014 at 3:21 PM, Carol Moore dc carolmoor...@verizon.net
wrote:

  Frankly, given the hostility to the Gender Gap project, I have to wonder
 about this Hashtag effort.

 Lightbreather quoted some obnoxious guy statements a month  ago out of her
 own account and was roundly criticized. Forum shopping and canvassing
 issues were raised while others applauded it. See
 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User_talk:Jimbo_Wales/Archive_170#Fed_up_with_the_status_quo
 ...

 I personally wouldn't do it because the wrong Admin who was friends with
 people you quoted (or people who don't like you) probably would get you
 blocked for weeks or months at a time. So it could be a way to trap editors
 whose twitter accounts are somehow linked to their user names.

 I know at least one guy at an ANI got away with criticizing a woman editor
 on her editing at a number of off wiki-sites.  But that doesn't mean any of
 us would get away with it.

  And this also can be turned about the Gender Gap Project
 #GenderGapStupidity or whatever.

 So unless there was some community consensus on an appropriate way to do
 this, I would tread carefully...

 CM


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[Gendergap] Feedback appreciated

[LB]

I would appreciate some feedback on this discussion, please, especially
from others who have been stalked in real life, harassed online, or
Wikihounded.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:WikiProject_Countering_systemic_bias/Gender_gap_task_force#Departed_member_explains.2C_in_her_own_words.2C_with_DIFFS

Thanks.
Lightbreather
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Re: [Gendergap] Sexualized environment on Commons

[LB]

Twice during my short discussion about how to start a civility board, which
turned into a long discussion about the word c*nt, an Admin gave the link
to the Commons search results for that word, saying that showed that the
text of the word isn't very offensive. WTF?!

On Jul 30, 2014 7:55 PM, Sarah Stierch sarah.stie...@gmail.com wrote:

 Nope and I get consistent messages on and off wiki from women saying
cheat sheets are poorly designed or people are too busy... But I don't
think surveys are being done about workshops and the guides they pass out
(I believe in throwing people into the pool to learn how to swim).

 I Still stand by hand holding...personal out weighs what we attempt...

 But perhaps I am old school in the world of wiki. I also lost a job to
trolls who coincidentally also disagreed with my beliefs on commons...so I
am particularly sensitive. Commons is a terrible and demoralizing place.

 The women's Commons revolution won't happen anytime soon.

 Sarah

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[Gendergap] Rebirthing PAIN or something like it - and c*nt talk

[LB]

One of my hurdles as an editor is incivility: a deficiency of it in others
and, according to some of them, too much of it in me - or too much
sensitivity. I started a discussion Where and how to request a Civility
board
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia_talk:Administrators%27_noticeboard#Where_and_how_to_request_a_Civility_board
and there seems to be some strong resistance to the idea.

Disappointingly, but perhaps not surprisingly, the third person to reply
dragged gender into it, with this comment:

Besides, the easiest way to avoid being called a cunt is not to act
like one.

I would surely like some feedback - here and there - about this.

Lightbreather
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