[gentoo-dev] Resignation
Hi, It is time for me to resign as a Gentoo developer. I no longer contribute enough to the project to warrant developer status, and that is not likely to change anytime soon. With new hobbies and projects in my life, I no longer find the free time and motivation combination that used to make me contribute to Gentoo on a regular basis. I wish to thank everyone I had the pleasure to work with. I learned a lot from you, and being part of the development team was a great experience. I plan to contribute on Bugzilla from time to time, and I might try to come back to devhood in the future... With kind regards, Olivier -- Olivier Fisette (ribosome) Gentoo Linux Developer Scientific applications
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Good luck, dude. -- Davide dav_it Italiano Gentoo Gnu/Linux Developer
[gentoo-dev] Resignation
No, not from Gentoo. After some thought, for personal reasons I resign from devrel. It's been enjoyable, and all my best to the devrel team. Regards, Ferris -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Developer, Gentoo Linux (Sparc, Userrel, Trustees) signature.asc Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Tuesday 17 April 2007 06:01, Jakub Moc wrote: So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish! I'm sad to see you go but I can't say that I don't understand you. It has been great having you shove security bugs our way when needed. Thank you for your work and best of luck with your future endeavours. -- Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen (Jaervosz) pgpgmvTNPQKW8.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Tuesday 17 April 2007 16:01:46 Jakub Moc wrote: So Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more. I'm therefore resigning from this project. I would be grateful if somebody could refer me to the archive URL of the message which triggered this episode so I can make a personal judgment about it? I don't think I can be receiving all messages posted to this list. Thanks. -- CS -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Sad to see you go. In my pov you really did a good job. I hope the ones in charge of bugzilla come with a solution to this. -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Tue, Apr 17, 2007 at 09:04:39AM -0500, Jeffrey Gardner wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jakub Moc wrote: So Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more. I'm therefore resigning from this project. It was recently said that if you had been the 20th or 30th person to get sanctioned, you could have just relaxed and enjoyed the vacation time. But since the CoC is fairly new, and you're the first one (that I can remember) to get suspended, it stings more than it should. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is don't take it so hard...it's not that big a deal. Ok, I'm going to quote something I wrote on the -core mailing list that will hopefully help to clear up this misunderstanding about the decision being based on the new code of conduct. Maybe I shouldn't have mentioned CoC at all since it seems to confuse a few people. We're not suspending jakub based on CoC but based on a long string of bad behaviour. That behaviour certainly violates the code of conduct in many cases but the suspension isn't based on CoC as such but rather the numerous devrel complaints and warnings he's already received. In short, the suspension is based on repeated bad behaviour during a long period of time and despite warning him several times there's been no improvement in his behaviour. That's why we're calling for a timeout with this suspension and hoping that jakub will reconsider his behaviour. Regards, Bryan Østergaard -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 07:43 +0200, Luca Barbato wrote: Jakub Moc wrote: So Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more. I'm therefore resigning from this project. While there are situations in which you are right about complaining, the form of some of your complaints isn't exactly nice many times. The 2 weeks pause probably had been meant to just have you think about this issue. I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I could ever possibly be to this project. Nobody is perfect, complaints about conduct can be issued in a simpler and saner way... Since I consider your work precious I'd like to see you back after those 2 weeks. Please try to think about how to improve instead on how unfair this treatment had been. Jakub, Luca is exactly right here. The suspension is meant to be a cooling off period, not a message that says please resign. So please, both for yourself and for Gentoo, reconsider your resignation and use the two weeks to cool off, relax, or whatever. I believe your work is most important, and I'd hate to lose it over this rather small matter. If you wish, please contact me privately. I'll discuss anything you like. lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero Regards, -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Tue, 2007-04-17 at 09:04 -0500, Jeffrey Gardner wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Jakub Moc wrote: So Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more. I'm therefore resigning from this project. It was recently said that if you had been the 20th or 30th person to get sanctioned, you could have just relaxed and enjoyed the vacation time. But since the CoC is fairly new, and you're the first one (that I can remember) to get suspended, it stings more than it should. Anyway, what I'm trying to say is don't take it so hard...it's not that big a deal. Small correction, just for accuracy's sake: Suspension is under devrel policy, not CoC. Otherwise, I fully agree with your last sentence. - -- Jeffrey Gardner Gentoo Developer Public PGP Key ID: 4A5D8F23 hkp://pgpkeys.mit.edu -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFGJNP3iR2KxEpdjyMRAuDcAKCYrMSWKW3vejLMGZzzQXcPVF2K4gCfcu8r 9F5Ub7g+aWGm1fD2riE5nwM= =bOk8 -END PGP SIGNATURE- Regards, -- Ferris McCormick (P44646, MI) [EMAIL PROTECTED] Developer, Gentoo Linux (Devrel, Sparc) signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Tue, 17 Apr 2007 06:01:46 +0200 Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more. I'm therefore resigning from this project. I'm sorry to see you go. I'm personally requesting for you to reconsider. Your work has been greatly undermined by certain developers. You've fixed multiple times more bugs than many of the devs with actual CVS commit access by simply doing something about them.. Poke me at any time on IRC to get something done. - Samuli Suominen -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Resignation
So Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more. I'm therefore resigning from this project. I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I could ever possibly be to this project. This can be clearly evidenced by their long-lasting good record as in [1] and [2] and [3]. In devrel's own words, one needs to respect the wishes of maintainers. So I'm respecting the wishes of said developer and am getting out of his way - cheers and keep slackin', Colin! Keep on the great work! I fully understand that respect for wishes of maintainers is far more important than fixing stuff in the tree for our users; unfortunately those wishes are incompatible with my tasks of a bug wrangler. Of course that can be quickly remedied by taking simple steps such as suspending the offenders who complain on the bugs, so no big deal. I'd also like to express my sincere thanks to our QA team, they've been a tremendous help to me, especially since spb took the position of QA lead and eroyf joined them. This can be documented on way too many bugs, this email is getting long so I'd just mention [4] as a good example of nice work these folks have been doing. Also thanks for the neutral approach you've taken on the other bugs quoted above, I'm pretty sure that's the right thing to do for QA. No need at all to be concerned about bugs that have been sitting there for mere two years, we shouldn't make the precious maintainers angry, right. Finally, my thanks go to devrel and especially our devrel lead, for the professional, unbiased etc. conduct they've presented on my devrel bug [5] (sorry, ask your friendly devrel member to unrestrict if you can't read it, after all I can't access it either), as well as before. I indeed entirely failed when I removed myself from the discussion about possible misbehaviour on [my] side. I'm pretty sure the fact that noone CCed me there in the first place for about 9 months was just an unfortunate oversight of our fully professional devrel. So, thanks a bunch again, kloeri. I'm the worst CoC offender in the whole Gentoo ever, and fully deserve to be punished. In no way we should disturb the old good boys club around #-uk, that could endanger your position and would require guts; no need for that. Whoever is in charge, kindly change my bugzilla account to the email address this mail is sent from and take care of the setting the bugzilla privs accordingly. There's still a couple of bugs I've filed and maybe someone will take care of them. (No need to worry, Colin, you can sit on your bugs as long as you wish, I won't disturb you in your limbo), For all the rest of folks that haven't found themselves above, sorry, no thanks for you in this mail. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't appreciate to be thanked in this context, and that's a good thing. So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish! [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82772 [2] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143519 [3] http://cia.vc/stats/author/peitolm [4] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166790 [5] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134852 -- Jakub Moc Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Jakub Moc wrote: So Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more. I'm therefore resigning from this project. While there are situations in which you are right about complaining, the form of some of your complaints isn't exactly nice many times. The 2 weeks pause probably had been meant to just have you think about this issue. I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I could ever possibly be to this project. Nobody is perfect, complaints about conduct can be issued in a simpler and saner way... Since I consider your work precious I'd like to see you back after those 2 weeks. Please try to think about how to improve instead on how unfair this treatment had been. lu -- Luca Barbato Gentoo/linux Gentoo/PPC http://dev.gentoo.org/~lu_zero -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On 17/04/07, Jakub Moc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: So Since devrel has been so kind and suspended me, based on our brand new CoC, I don't feel any need to stay on this project any more. I'm therefore resigning from this project. I'm pretty sure it will be actually no loss for Gentoo, since those folks that contributed to my retirement far outweigh the benefit I could ever possibly be to this project. This can be clearly evidenced by their long-lasting good record as in [1] and [2] and [3]. In devrel's own words, one needs to respect the wishes of maintainers. So I'm respecting the wishes of said developer and am getting out of his way - cheers and keep slackin', Colin! Keep on the great work! I fully understand that respect for wishes of maintainers is far more important than fixing stuff in the tree for our users; unfortunately those wishes are incompatible with my tasks of a bug wrangler. Of course that can be quickly remedied by taking simple steps such as suspending the offenders who complain on the bugs, so no big deal. I'd also like to express my sincere thanks to our QA team, they've been a tremendous help to me, especially since spb took the position of QA lead and eroyf joined them. This can be documented on way too many bugs, this email is getting long so I'd just mention [4] as a good example of nice work these folks have been doing. Also thanks for the neutral approach you've taken on the other bugs quoted above, I'm pretty sure that's the right thing to do for QA. No need at all to be concerned about bugs that have been sitting there for mere two years, we shouldn't make the precious maintainers angry, right. Finally, my thanks go to devrel and especially our devrel lead, for the professional, unbiased etc. conduct they've presented on my devrel bug [5] (sorry, ask your friendly devrel member to unrestrict if you can't read it, after all I can't access it either), as well as before. I indeed entirely failed when I removed myself from the discussion about possible misbehaviour on [my] side. I'm pretty sure the fact that noone CCed me there in the first place for about 9 months was just an unfortunate oversight of our fully professional devrel. So, thanks a bunch again, kloeri. I'm the worst CoC offender in the whole Gentoo ever, and fully deserve to be punished. In no way we should disturb the old good boys club around #-uk, that could endanger your position and would require guts; no need for that. Whoever is in charge, kindly change my bugzilla account to the email address this mail is sent from and take care of the setting the bugzilla privs accordingly. There's still a couple of bugs I've filed and maybe someone will take care of them. (No need to worry, Colin, you can sit on your bugs as long as you wish, I won't disturb you in your limbo), For all the rest of folks that haven't found themselves above, sorry, no thanks for you in this mail. I'm pretty sure you wouldn't appreciate to be thanked in this context, and that's a good thing. So Long, and Thanks for All the Fish! [1] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=82772 [2] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=143519 [3] http://cia.vc/stats/author/peitolm [4] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=166790 [5] http://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=134852 -- Jakub Moc Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] mailing list You are one of the most productive devs we have (had...). You've helped me on more than on occasion. While I'm sure anybody could build a the world hates me case from selecting a few particular bugzie entries I'm also pretty sure that peoples personalities will have caused more of an issue here than their actions... Good luck in the future, enjoy having some free time! -Rob -- /** * Gentoo Linux Developer * GPG : 0x2217D168 */
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
I could see that kinda working IMO Caleb...a president-like figure to run things, elected id say would be best, maybe 1 year terms or something, cannot be overruled but elections can be called early if some overly high percentage of council/others express concerns about the person... otherwise their word is final, see that would at least give things direction, and the person is removable but only with some kinda concensus among devs... id also think this person should be independent of groups such as the council/devrel/etc if so... just my 0.02 :)Nathan.On 10/14/06, Caleb Cushing [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I agree. what we're seeing is a failure of democracy. at first itworks. then people have opinions. then bickering starts. and no one has the power to stamp there foot down and say this is our direction.It doesn't work very well. at the least we need a president likefigure. of course I'm not against a supreme dictator as long as theykeep looking forward, and doing good. --gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Saturday 07 October 2006 4:19 pm, Tim Yamin wrote: All, I'm afraid that I find that my position with Gentoo is no longer tenable. Over the past year and especially over the past few months the ability to keep Gentoo a coherent and smooth environment has been eroded and hindered at practically every opportunity by bad decisions, staff, and in some cases, downright incompetence. Which is all the more reason to stay on and work toward being in a position to change things. If all the competent people leave, then who's left to run things? Although I've stayed in the background for some time now, I have been watching the direction that Gentoo is taking. I'm not at the point where I think Gentoo (as a community) is a lost cause. Far from it. But I do think that the Gentoo community has lacked some focus and direction in the past couple of years. Certainly, individual projects have focused on the core goals they have. And that's a great thing. But it seems that there a lack of cohesive strategy at higher levels. Gentoo management has become watered down and less effective. Here's where I'm probably going to draw out the typically trolls who think it's their way or the highway, but let me preface my next comment by saying that I have the utmost respect for those who are working within the current management framework. However, I think the Gentoo council-- as the top level of the management structure-- consistently fails the Gentoo community in the area of focus and vision. A project the size of Gentoo needs a leader, not just a governing council. Someone who embodies the vision of the distribution and provides management focus. While some of you may disagree, I believe the Gentoo community had that focus under drobbins. I'm not saying that we install Daniel as the supreme dictator of Gentoo. I'm just saying that /someone/ should be elected as the buck stops here guy (or girl). A person who decides what the goals are for the distribution and (at a high level) manages the development to that end. Someone who has the authority to say no. The council would act as an advising board to that person, but this leader would have the power to decide what the priorities are in Gentoo. Of course, that person should be someone who is well respected within the community and active on a daily basis with development. So obviously, I'm not nominating myself. :-) I think the 2006 Gentoo Council results[1] represent a really good cross-section of people who would do a fine job. However, I think the Gentoo lead should be a seperate entity. Thoughts, comments? This is not an attempt to start an argument or flamewar. These are frank, sincere comments from a concerned developer. Anyway, I'm sorry to see you go plasmaroo. I can understand your frustration. But it's a shame that good developers feel that their only recourse is to resign. -- Jason Huebel Gentoo Developer GPG Public Key: http://pgp.mit.edu:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0x9BA9E230 Do not weep; do not wax indignant. Understand. Baruch Spinoza (1632 - 1677) [1] http://www.gentoo.org/proj/en/council/voting-logs/council-2006-results.txt -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Seeing you go under these circumstances really worries me. Perhaps you want to reconsider it - if not: All the best! cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org pgpIebpqWuMLk.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Donnie Berkholz wrote: Tim Yamin wrote: Lately however, the fun and the motivation just hasn't been there for the reasons I've outlined above; it's finally taken its toll, and I believe the time to move onto new projects and ventures has finally come for me. I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to thank all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so enjoyable. Tim, Thanks for all of the hard work you've put into Gentoo. I know it isn't always appreciated, so I want to make sure you know how valuable you've been. I couldn't have said it better myself. Good luck with everything. Steve -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
[gentoo-dev] Resignation
All, I'm afraid that I find that my position with Gentoo is no longer tenable. Over the past year and especially over the past few months the ability to keep Gentoo a coherent and smooth environment has been eroded and hindered at practically every opportunity by bad decisions, staff, and in some cases, downright incompetence. It transpires that from the recent barrage of developers leaving, the disquiet and increasing lack of congruence of the developer (and to some extent also the user) communities that something is inherently wrong. I'm leaving it as an exercise to the reader to explore exactly what (if anything) is wrong. Seeing as we have failed to address these challenges over the course of many months and as a result of continuous recent discussions (which half the time end up being totally redundant due to miscommunication) both on -core and on -dev, it is evident that something is wrong with the core management (or lack thereof, depending on your point of view). I no longer have the commitment or desire to follow the road in solving the above challenges. I'm not really sure whether there even is a solution. I'd like to add that I have really enjoyed my time in the past three years working with Gentoo and helping to contribute to the then vibrant and dynamic community. Lately however, the fun and the motivation just hasn't been there for the reasons I've outlined above; it's finally taken its toll, and I believe the time to move onto new projects and ventures has finally come for me. I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to thank all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so enjoyable. So long, and thanks for all the fish... Tim. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Hi Tim, On 10/7/06, Tim Yamin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to thank all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so enjoyable. All the very best with whatever you do next. It's been a real pleasure working with you on Gentoo, and at the Gentoo UK conferences, and you'll be sorely missed. Best regards, Stu -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Tim Yamin wrote: I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to thank all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so enjoyable. So long, and thanks for all the fish... I can't say this was unexpected, but I'm sorry to see you go. Are you going to continue to contribute to various projects you've worked on such as gk4? -- Andrew Gaffneyhttp://dev.gentoo.org/~agaffney/ Gentoo Linux Developer Installer Project Today's lesson in political correctness: Go asphyxiate on a phallus -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On 2006.10.07 22:19, Tim Yamin wrote: All, [snip] So long, and thanks for all the fish... Tim. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list Tim, I'm sorry to see you depart. Good luck for the future, see you around on irc. Regards, Roy Bamford (NeddySeagoon) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Tim Yamin wrote: So long, and thanks for all the fish... Tim. Well, I've already given you my best wishes for the future, but it can't hurt to do it twice :P Have fun doing whatever it is you'll be doing with yourself Take care, Peter Weller -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Hi Tim, Am Samstag, 7. Oktober 2006 23:19 schrieb Tim Yamin: I'm afraid that I find that my position with Gentoo is no longer tenable. Over the past year and especially over the past few months the ability to keep Gentoo a coherent and smooth environment has been eroded and hindered at practically every opportunity by bad decisions, staff, and in some cases, downright incompetence. I'm sorry to see you go, but i cannot agree with you here. More below. It transpires that from the recent barrage of developers leaving, the disquiet and increasing lack of congruence of the developer (and to some extent also the user) communities that something is inherently wrong. I'm leaving it as an exercise to the reader to explore exactly what (if anything) is wrong. Honestly, i think you're showing a weak shell here, but that's my personal opinion. QA and council asked you to do something you didn't like to do, and i still don't understand your reasoning. Please think about this decision over a week or so. Kloeri: Please don't file a retirement bug immediately. Seeing as we have failed to address these challenges over the course of many months and as a result of continuous recent discussions (which half the time end up being totally redundant due to miscommunication) both on -core and on -dev, it is evident that something is wrong with the core management (or lack thereof, depending on your point of view). I no longer have the commitment or desire to follow the road in solving the above challenges. I'm not really sure whether there even is a solution. I'd like to add that I have really enjoyed my time in the past three years working with Gentoo and helping to contribute to the then vibrant and dynamic community. As have I while working with you, especially and mainly in release engineering. Lately however, the fun and the motivation just hasn't been there for the reasons I've outlined above; it's finally taken its toll, and I believe the time to move onto new projects and ventures has finally come for me. As longas you stay away from microphones ;-) I would like to wish all of you the very best, and would like to thank all of you who have (and haven't) made my time here so enjoyable. Thank you very much So long, and thanks for all the fish... I think you oughta know that I'm feeling very depressed :-( Danny, who hopes to see you again next year! -- Danny van Dyk [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo/AMD64 Project, Gentoo Scientific Project -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Sat, Oct 07, 2006 at 09:19:14PM +, Tim Yamin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: All, I'm afraid that I find that my position with Gentoo is no longer tenable. Over the past year and especially over the past few months Sorry to see you leave. Good luck. tomaw. pgpsUI71BNcK3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Monday 31 July 2006 14:53, Bryan Ãstergaard wrote: On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 01:01:20PM +0200, Christian Andreetta wrote: Many users (and I'm both a dev *and* a user) just could do much for Gentoo, but when you're interested in a niche sector package, you *don't have other choices* but 1) an endless wait for an open bug 2) becoming dev for the good of all :-) 3) just use your personal overlay, without sharing the results of your efforts. If the bug in 1) is still open, why updating it with your latest patches/revision bumps? 4) Bash devs to add your ebuild Which one exactly. The point is that it is not on a dev's turf. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgplHPp1Cr8hj.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Thu, Aug 03, 2006 at 08:49:31AM +0200, Paul de Vrieze wrote: On Monday 31 July 2006 14:53, Bryan Ãstergaard wrote: On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 01:01:20PM +0200, Christian Andreetta wrote: Many users (and I'm both a dev *and* a user) just could do much for Gentoo, but when you're interested in a niche sector package, you *don't have other choices* but 1) an endless wait for an open bug 2) becoming dev for the good of all :-) 3) just use your personal overlay, without sharing the results of your efforts. If the bug in 1) is still open, why updating it with your latest patches/revision bumps? 4) Bash devs to add your ebuild Which one exactly. The point is that it is not on a dev's turf. Many ebuilds sitting in bugzie naturally falls under one herd or another. And if you can't find any developer that should (likely) be maintaining the ebuild you can always ask in the irc channels geared towards users (#gentoo-bugs, #gentoo-dev-help, even #gentoo) or ask on gentoo-dev ML. Lots of ways to get developers attentions imo. Regards, Bryan Østergaard -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Monday 31 July 2006 04:28, Dan Meltzer wrote: I do not see why it is considdered hard for users to get involved. Users have at least two choices that I can think of right now, and probably a number that I cannot think of. 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. And the patch hanging in bugzilla forever because no-one wants to maintain it. Sunrise could help here, by accepting properly written ebuilds that do however not get maintenance. Sunrise should not really be about replacing current ebuilds, but offering some support for those packages that are useful for some, but that do not have enough usage that a developer wants to put it into the tree. 2) Users can take the quizzes and become a developer, I do not see why two quizzes is considdered an insurmountable task, the quizzes are specifically designed to ensure that people writing ebuilds understand what ebuilds can contain and what they cannot, I could not imagine a user wanting to install a package from an ebuild written by someone that does not know this. They first need to be invited to start the whole process. Paul -- Paul de Vrieze Gentoo Developer Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Homepage: http://www.devrieze.net pgpTSDLQV40v3.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Wednesday 02 August 2006 15:27, Paul de Vrieze wrote: On Monday 31 July 2006 04:28, Dan Meltzer wrote: 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. And the patch hanging in bugzilla forever because no-one wants to maintain it. Sunrise could help here, by accepting properly written ebuilds that do however not get maintenance. How does that help? User goes to bugzilla or User goes to sunrise User still has to go somewhere outside of the tree. Thanks -- Roy Marples [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo/Linux Developer (baselayout, networking) -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Wednesday 02 August 2006 05:50, Richard Fish wrote: Nothing that I have read about sunrise, either in GWN, their project pages, or the FAQ, has given me the impression that they are urging all users to give it a try. There is certainly some advertising about it, as would be appropriate for any new Gentoo project. But nothing that I would say gives the slightest hint of pushiness. Well, as long as there's no big fat warning that there's not support, no security team backing it up - and that the overlay is not meant for general consumption, it's very problematic. On the contrary, it's written down that the overlay is meant to make a wide range of ebuilds easily available - without any measures to secure its consumers. Carsten pgphw9JvVbUt5.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On 8/2/06, Roy Marples [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Wednesday 02 August 2006 15:27, Paul de Vrieze wrote: On Monday 31 July 2006 04:28, Dan Meltzer wrote: 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. And the patch hanging in bugzilla forever because no-one wants to maintain it. Sunrise could help here, by accepting properly written ebuilds that do however not get maintenance. How does that help? User goes to bugzilla or User goes to sunrise User still has to go somewhere outside of the tree. Thanks http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/SunriseFaq#ButBugzillaisactuallyeasier -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Wed, Aug 02, 2006 at 02:53:58PM -0500, Alex Tarkovsky wrote: http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/SunriseFaq#ButBugzillaisactuallyeasier says: We do think that Sunrise is easier. [..] But in contrast to that it requires more knowledge and tools to get something into sunrise - more work for contributors. Also contributors have to get their ebuilds reviewed before committing - bugzilla is easier here. So perhaps some things are more complicated and each solution has their (dis-)advantages. Hence it's not always best to drop a line to a FAQ to prove a point. cheers, Wernfried -- Wernfried Haas (amne) - amne at gentoo dot org Gentoo Forums: http://forums.gentoo.org IRC: #gentoo-forums on freenode - email: forum-mods at gentoo dot org pgpHxUNjJIVQu.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 08:53:00PM -0400, Doug Goldstein wrote: Brixy!! You can't leave. Who else will I ramble to on IRC after coming back from the bars? Who else will fix my wireless adapter? You can still ramble to me on IRC - it's not like I'm dropping off the face of the Earth. As for your wireless adapter... if you want me to help with that you'd have to change your operating system ;) I feel so cold and alone!! Got dumped again, eh? ;) But seriously, you'll be missed. :( Thank you. Regards, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd pgpUHCa0aR2xC.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Monday 31 July 2006 04:52, Mike Frysinger wrote: On Sunday 30 July 2006 22:28, Dan Meltzer wrote: 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. load up your browser and check out how many bugs are assigned to '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' This isn't the problem. We'll never can maintain all this stuff - given the number of people we're. We need more devs - just to clean up the current tree and maintain it properly at it's current size one- or two hundred (having fluctuation in mind) more guys wouldn't harm. The problem is more that we have devs who constantly add (arbitrary) stuff to the tree, instead cleaning out and caring for unmaintained stuff, before adding something new. opening a bug, putting together an ebuild/patches/etc..., and then watching it sit there and bitrot for weeks, months, and in the extreme case years certainly is anything but encouraging especially considering that by the time a developer gets an interest in the posted ebuild, the ebuild/patches/etc... are now bitrotted and need just as much work to get them up and working with the latest release This is still a community distro. That means we need people who want to become become devs to maintain more. That simple. Surise won't help in this regard. It's just an extended repository for lazy people, who don't care for security with the side effect of increased bug spam. plus the timeframe from saying hey i'd like to develop to actually getting your own commit access is heftier than many would like to undertake ... Is it? I got new devs on board within a few weeks. It could always be better, but I think that's reasonable. Do you have numbers? Has devrel a statistic? In my experience it's more that a lot of people moan, but don't want to become active. Carsten pgp3cv7QN61Oo.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Monday 31 July 2006 13:01, Christian Andreetta wrote: Seemant Kulleen wrote: On Sun, 2006-07-30 at 23:50 -0400, Brett I. Holcomb wrote: My concern is beyond me. As I stated I know enough about what to expect IF I use sunrise. But many do not and with it becoming official people figure it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers. Gentoo has a reputation as a good solid, stable distro. As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - why couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG. Why does it have to be official? Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the same. It has just to be put clear that in this case official doesn't mean solid, right, tested by our best QA, but simply preferred. That is, I think we're not speaking of official, but _basically_ revised and encouraged. And that's why it has been announced as the best since sliced bred - urging all users to give it a try, but with the option to point with the finger on them, laughing Ha, ha, you should have known dumb nuts., later. Brett is absolutely right with his previous emails. Carsten pgpskfhmux16K.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On 8/1/06, Carsten Lohrke [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: And that's why it has been announced as the best since sliced bred - urging all users to give it a try, but with the option to point with the finger on them, laughing Ha, ha, you should have known dumb nuts., later. Brett is absolutely right with his previous emails. Nothing that I have read about sunrise, either in GWN, their project pages, or the FAQ, has given me the impression that they are urging all users to give it a try. There is certainly some advertising about it, as would be appropriate for any new Gentoo project. But nothing that I would say gives the slightest hint of pushiness. -Richard -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, Jul 30, 2006 at 10:50:31PM -0400, Seemant Kulleen wrote: On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 03:35 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | we take a risk with this project (like every single other | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we | kill it, no big deal How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's considered to suck and cause problems? I don't recall users having been lost to the Sunrise. I know of only one developer who left. He left in a huff, in an emotional I'm taking toys, because I don't like them way, without actually raising any issues that he was against, other than a nebulous concern about QA. Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a starting place. Left in a huff? I'm sorry but I don't think you fully understand the reasons for Brix leaving. After Sunrise was suspended by the council there was a meeting [1] between brix, the sunrise leads (genstef and jokey), christel (representing user relations), myself and one or two other people that showed an interest in the meeting (primarily antarus). At that meeting we tried to figure out what the outstanding issues were and how they could be solved. The outcome of the meeting was that sunrise was to stay as an unofficial project until those issues were solved - I'd like to remind everybody that genstef and jokey agreed on this. Furthermore Brix was to write up his proposal on how to reach the goals of sunrise in a more acceptable way (to him and other people uneasy with the current sunrise project). Before this could even happen genstef took upon himself to tell the council that all outstanding problems have been solved although I haven't seen *any* progress regarding the issues raised on that meeting. I don't know if genstefs memory is just extremely bad or if he purposefully misled the council or something entirely different. That's not really my point either. *This is my point* - Brix sees sunrise in it's current form as a project with great potential to harm Gentoo. He agrees with the goals but not the implementation. And no matter how hard he works at solving the problems he sees genstef, jokey and the council have mostly ignored him by unsuspending the project. I certainly don't blame Brix if he sees no further possibility for correcting those problems and instead chooses to leave the project. Regards, Bryan Østergaard PS. Sorry genstef about picking at you but I don't know how you managed to forget everything that was agreed upon on our meeting. 21:56 @Koon Have all the reasonable objections been addressed ? 21:56 @Koon because you'll never satisfy those who want it dead anyway 21:56 +genstef I hope so. If you can point something more out to me I would love to hear it - our meeting ended up with some concerns that you even agreed to yourself by keeping sunrise unofficial. [1] http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.gentoo.devel/39764 -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Bryan A~stergaard wrote: Left in a huff? I'm sorry but I don't think you fully understand the reasons for Brix leaving. After Sunrise was suspended by the council there was a meeting [1] between brix, the sunrise leads (genstef and jokey), christel (representing user relations), myself and one or two other people that showed an interest in the meeting (primarily antarus). At that meeting we tried to figure out what the outstanding issues were and how they could be solved. The outcome of the meeting was that sunrise was to stay as an unofficial project until those issues were solved - I'd like to remind everybody that genstef and jokey agreed on this. Furthermore Brix was to write up his proposal on how to reach the goals of sunrise in a more acceptable way (to him and other people uneasy with the current sunrise project). Before this could even happen genstef took upon himself to tell the council that all outstanding problems have been solved although I haven't seen *any* progress regarding the issues raised on that meeting. I don't know if genstefs memory is just extremely bad or if he purposefully misled the council or something entirely different. That's not really my point either. *This is my point* - Brix sees sunrise in it's current form as a project with great potential to harm Gentoo. He agrees with the goals but not the implementation. And no matter how hard he works at solving the problems he sees genstef, jokey and the council have mostly ignored him by unsuspending the project. I certainly don't blame Brix if he sees no further possibility for correcting those problems and instead chooses to leave the project. Well, huh??? Looks like you've missed the -dev ML thread altogether, as did brix (despite it was himself who started it, as Mike has already pointed out). Brix didn't write any proposal and didn't raise any specific objections when called for, then he goes to leave b/c the project has been unsuspended? Sorry, I really fail to see how is this council's fault (or any Sunrise project member's fault for that matter). -- Best regards, Jakub Moc mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG signature: http://subkeys.pgp.net:11371/pks/lookup?op=getsearch=0xCEBA3D9E Primary key fingerprint: D2D7 933C 9BA1 C95B 2C95 B30F 8717 D5FD CEBA 3D9E ... still no signature ;) signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Seemant Kulleen wrote: On Sun, 2006-07-30 at 23:50 -0400, Brett I. Holcomb wrote: My concern is beyond me. As I stated I know enough about what to expect IF I use sunrise. But many do not and with it becoming official people figure it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers. Gentoo has a reputation as a good solid, stable distro. As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - why couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG. Why does it have to be official? Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the same. It has just to be put clear that in this case official doesn't mean solid, right, tested by our best QA, but simply preferred. That is, I think we're not speaking of official, but _basically_ revised and encouraged. Many users (and I'm both a dev *and* a user) just could do much for Gentoo, but when you're interested in a niche sector package, you *don't have other choices* but 1) an endless wait for an open bug 2) becoming dev for the good of all :-) 3) just use your personal overlay, without sharing the results of your efforts. If the bug in 1) is still open, why updating it with your latest patches/revision bumps? Statistically you end up to 3). We just need something to reduce this statistically. BMG has, from day 1, been marginalised in the Gentoo community. I always fancied that they should've been folded into the larger Gentoo projects and become what Sunrise is today. The way I read you, your fear is based on the possibility of some future perception by an unknown number of people. Sunrise's idea is that stuff gets checked and re-checked and remains accessible -- have you read through their site and their commit histories and changesets? They're not exactly dawdling. As for Gentoo's reputation, I'm actually pleasantly surprised to hear it characterised that way :) If it has that reputation, then it will actually take a lot to break that. I'm surprised that ~keywords didn't already break it. I agree that the official portage tree is a QA nightmare. Sunrise seems to be nipping that nightmare for a future date -- ie by allowing people to commit and perform peer reviews, they're grooming the next generation of developers to look at QA from the outset, instead of as an afterthought. I'm just adding another good point to sunrise (or whatever will be a revised preferred centralized repo of packages not officially supported): you have another way to benefit of retired devs who just don't have the time to be responsible for the bugs of a package in an arch they don't know, but have the interest and the competence to add packages to an unofficial overlay. I'll be soon one of those devs: maybe some of the packages I maintain will finish as maintainer-wanted. And, in this case, they could eventually end up in the sunrise overlay: a way for the users to help users. Just my 2 euro c -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.2.2 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEzeL5xrlkonpN2woRAgR6AKCZ95pvY5BCaaHfkDeU0bXhsn3/ngCfWCTa QTpQ3b2LvCnENAWdTSZx5Ng= =GTM7 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On 2006.07.31 12:01, Giacomo Cariello wrote: Roy Bamford wrote: Sunrise attempts to provide the next part of the school system down. A school system should have a well defined syllabus, explicit educational targets and an objective evaluation system. If Gentoo is going to run a Gentoo School with courses for developers, that sounds cool (and may relieve some burden from the developers mentors). Agreed. Probably its objectors just want the project to formalize its methods before official launch. Possibly. In regard to the rule of thumb you suggest to verify average quality, I wouldn't consider a reliable way to assess quality. I suppose that part of responsibility of Gentoo towards their users consist in using caution in their choices. Caution suggest that you cannot suppose the long-term effects by measuring the current, limited, 150-ebuilds version of this project. You can only examine now, what exists now. The long term effects can be assessed by repeated examinations, much like holders of ISO 9000 (a quality standard) undergo to retain their accreditation. Going off on a wild tangent for a moment perhaps sunrise and other overlays could be accredited by Gentoo using such a system of regular and surprise checks. Also, it's better to debate this path now, rather than wait until we realize Gentoo cannot handle at least minimal safety of a 10-ebuilds user-contributed overlay used by hundreds/thousands of people and throw it in the dustbin with a we said that if it doesn't work, we kill it quote. This in not a realistic claim - look at the way the official portage tree has grown with time and that changes made to cope with that growth. Your statement implies that sunrise starts out badly, gets worse but nobody notices for a long time. That's simply not realistic. Sunrise will evolve - like any other OSS project. I would expect sunrise to spawn both devs and ebuilds and to see the more popular ebuilds moved into the official tree as the dev population can cope. That's not much different from the present process, where ebuilds are in b.g.o. However b.g.o doesn't interactively encourage would be devs. It would be a lack of respect towards the efforts of users that contributed to it. Yes it would and it won't happen. - Giacomo 'jwk' Cariello -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list Regards, Roy Bamford -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Mon, Jul 31, 2006 at 01:01:20PM +0200, Christian Andreetta wrote: Many users (and I'm both a dev *and* a user) just could do much for Gentoo, but when you're interested in a niche sector package, you *don't have other choices* but 1) an endless wait for an open bug 2) becoming dev for the good of all :-) 3) just use your personal overlay, without sharing the results of your efforts. If the bug in 1) is still open, why updating it with your latest patches/revision bumps? 4) Bash devs to add your ebuild 5) Use proxy maintaining (as been suggested several times) Proxy maintaining already happens but some people claims not enough users and devs use this. Personally I'd love to see proxy maintaining advertised which would probably help proxy maintaining take off and offer a way for users to (fairly easy) contribute to the tree and be sure their ebuilds ends up in the tree. Statistically you end up to 3). We just need something to reduce this statistically. See above. I'd love for more users to end up at 5). Regards, Bryan Østergaard -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On 7/31/06, Joshua Jackson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Thirdly, I know one of the issues with one of the leaders of the project, is the fact that they are not a ebuild developer. I'd like to have them take the second quiz simply to prove that they have the knowledge to be trusted to review the ebuilds. Course with the number that he's seen I'm sure he's helped take care of things that would make the rest of us go...how did they think that was ever a good idea. What if a well respected ebuild developper that supports the project volunteered to join it ? It could add some credibility to it and reduce the number of reasons that some people could shout about. I'm concerned that those against sunrise will claim that passing the end quizz doesn't give the sunrise leaders any more experience and credibility overnight. Denis. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 15:08:12 +0200 Denis Dupeyron [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What if a well respected ebuild developper that supports the project | volunteered to join it ? Get a half dozen and I suspect a lot of the concern will be reduced substantially... -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Henrik Brix Andersen wrote: To my former fellow Gentoo developers and users, On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 11:58:09PM +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote: To my fellow Gentoo developers and users, In last weeks council meeting [1] it was decided that the Sunrise project is no longer suspended. I can give a short overview of the current status of the overlay: Seeing this I'd like to resign as a Gentoo developer. Thank you to all the developers and users who have made the last two years a fun period of my life in OSS. You all know who you are. I'll miss you guys and gals. I wish the remaining developers good luck with keeping Gentoo Linux among the top GNU/Linux distributions out there. I can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] should anybody have any questions to the ebuilds, I used to maintain. Sorry about dumping the ebuilds on the people who kindly took over when I announced my present hiatus - but I'm sure you'll do a good job at maintaining them. I have an unfinished draft for a pcmcia-cs to pcmciautils migration howto sitting in my home dir - I'd appreciate if someone would step up and finish it. So long and thank you for all the fish, Brix Brixy!! You can't leave. Who else will I ramble to on IRC after coming back from the bars? Who else will fix my wireless adapter? I feel so cold and alone!! But seriously, you'll be missed. :( -- Doug Goldstein [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://dev.gentoo.org/~cardoe/ signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Friday 28 July 2006 01:55, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote: So long and thank you for all the fish, Brix I really hate to return home from a long weekend to read these kind of emails. I'm very sad to see you go, you really improved alot on the wireless experience! Good luck with your future projects and I hope we'll share a beer some day:-) -- Sune Kloppenborg Jeppesen Gentoo Linux Security Team pgpLDVwoMZRF0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Friday 28 July 2006 06:02, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 11:35:24AM +0200, Martin Schlemmer wrote: Mike asked you repeatedly to voice your issues or concerns in relation to Project Sunrise, which you failed to reply to. How many times are we supposed to raise our concerns about a project whose founders already agreed to run their project as an unofficial project on non-gentoo infrastructure? Did you miss the logs from the devrel + sunrise meeting where genstef and jokey agreed to this? as the thread on gentoo-dev was named: sunrise, a temporary compromise looks to me like most people (rightly) thought of the meeting as resulting in a temporary solution I simply had no idea the Gentoo Council even remotely considered taking Project Sunrise on as an official project. complete garbage if you arent reading the e-mails on the gentoo-dev list which were in reply to your own postings, then that is simply your own fault ... i was cc-ing you to make sure you saw those e-mails, and your reaction was: PS: There is no need to CC: me on replies. Please use reply-to-list. Also, I do not remember you even attending the meeting or asking to speak there, so this really seems a tad unreasonable or impulsive. Same as above - had I known same as above, complete garbage that you guys actually intended to revert your own ruling from the previous meeting along with the consensus reached on the devrel + sunrise meeting I would have been there to raise my concerns. reverting a temporary suspension ? what a crazy idea there were many threads asking for people to look at the latest Sunrise state and comment/complain/whatever with no more negative responses ... if developers arent posting negative feedback and issues appear to be resolved on gentoo-dev, then what else would you expect the Council to do ? -mike pgpRYVA6YVCsw.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 17:51:09 -0400 Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | then what else would you expect the Council to do ? Personally I'd expect the council to block the thing permanently. The council is, after all, supposed to serve as the last line of defence against people pushing through bad changes. Council members are supposed to be able to judge proposals based upon their merits, not the persistence of those trying to have them pushed through without following the proper process. There's no pawning the blame for this one off on arbitrary developers. Most of them don't have time to keep up with the kind of dirty tricks being used here. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sunday 30 July 2006 18:07, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Personally I'd expect the council to block the thing permanently. hard to address any sort of concerns here, so i guess i'll just regurgitate the council log to you it's hard for users to get involved in our development process ... i imagine some consider that a feature, but it leaves a large portion of our community out in the cold sunrise is attempting to fill that gap via some controversial methods ... in review, we deemed that the many concerns raised were pretty much addressed and any more requests for criticism and useful critiques either went unanswered or people piped up saying that they were happy with the latest state i (nor anyone else) cannot say whether this venture will succeed, only time will prove out the project ... sitting around and clamoring for more openness while killing every attempt at it gets us nowhere we take a risk with this project (like every single other project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we kill it, no big deal -mike pgpLtIN7EbqwQ.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On 7/30/06, Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sunday 30 July 2006 18:07, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Personally I'd expect the council to block the thing permanently. hard to address any sort of concerns here, so i guess i'll just regurgitate the council log to you it's hard for users to get involved in our development process ... i imagine some consider that a feature, but it leaves a large portion of our community out in the cold I do not see why it is considdered hard for users to get involved. Users have at least two choices that I can think of right now, and probably a number that I cannot think of. 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. 2) Users can take the quizzes and become a developer, I do not see why two quizzes is considdered an insurmountable task, the quizzes are specifically designed to ensure that people writing ebuilds understand what ebuilds can contain and what they cannot, I could not imagine a user wanting to install a package from an ebuild written by someone that does not know this. sunrise is attempting to fill that gap via some controversial methods ... in review, we deemed that the many concerns raised were pretty much addressed and any more requests for criticism and useful critiques either went unanswered or people piped up saying that they were happy with the latest state i (nor anyone else) cannot say whether this venture will succeed, only time will prove out the project ... sitting around and clamoring for more openness while killing every attempt at it gets us nowhere we take a risk with this project (like every single other project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we kill it, no big deal -mike -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | we take a risk with this project (like every single other | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we | kill it, no big deal How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's considered to suck and cause problems? -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 03:35 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | we take a risk with this project (like every single other | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we | kill it, no big deal How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's considered to suck and cause problems? I don't recall users having been lost to the Sunrise. I know of only one developer who left. He left in a huff, in an emotional I'm taking toys, because I don't like them way, without actually raising any issues that he was against, other than a nebulous concern about QA. Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a starting place. -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sunday 30 July 2006 22:28, Dan Meltzer wrote: 1) Users can submit patches/ideas to bugs.g.o at whatever frequency they desire, contributing to gentoo casually. load up your browser and check out how many bugs are assigned to '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' opening a bug, putting together an ebuild/patches/etc..., and then watching it sit there and bitrot for weeks, months, and in the extreme case years certainly is anything but encouraging especially considering that by the time a developer gets an interest in the posted ebuild, the ebuild/patches/etc... are now bitrotted and need just as much work to get them up and working with the latest release 2) Users can take the quizzes and become a developer our developer system does not cater to the one package per developer organizational style ... as such, would be maintainers need to learn a lot more about Gentoo than they may ever actually need plus the timeframe from saying hey i'd like to develop to actually getting your own commit access is heftier than many would like to undertake ... of course this system is by design to try and weed out flakes and make sure that people granted access to the whole tree can be pretty well trusted -mike pgpDecZZbjoMf.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sunday 30 July 2006 22:35, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:19:56 -0400 Mike Frysinger [EMAIL PROTECTED] | we take a risk with this project (like every single other | project) ... if sunrise turns out to suck and cause problems, then we | kill it, no big deal How many more users and developers will have to be lost before it's considered to suck and cause problems? trying to make everyone happy with every topic that comes up is just never going to happen -mike pgpiV3Yk4CfRM.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:50:31 -0400 Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a | starting place. -!- [Users #gentoo-sunrise] -!- @genstef devon bonsaikitten_ Zamorate eimono|home dev-zero brebs staskorz @nichoj_work eimono SunriseCIA richiefrich +Peper @CHTEKK SunriseBot TiCPU shillelagh Juippis -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 04:06 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:50:31 -0400 Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a | starting place. -!- [Users #gentoo-sunrise] -!- @genstef devon bonsaikitten_ Zamorate eimono|home dev-zero brebs staskorz @nichoj_work eimono SunriseCIA richiefrich +Peper @CHTEKK SunriseBot TiCPU shillelagh Juippis A user list of a channel doesn't actually say anything. Please elaborate. -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
I am only a user and have been keeping out of this debate but I feel I need to at least express my thoughts. I have been folllowing the Sunrise thread(s) since it started. I have done a couple of ebuilds a long time ago and would love to have been able to contribute to Gentoo but due to time constraints - not enough of it G - I just can't. I have been a longtime Gentoo user and have loved it because A) it had no rpms (I had to write them for Caldera), B). It allowed me to configure a system for me quickly that ran well without bloat C) It was easy to keep updated - no hassling with Yast, yum, apt-get, etc. and D). it was dependable - you could download the x86 and know it would work with very few issues. However, I am going to be building a new system from scratch and this sunrise mess is causing me to revevaluate my choice of distro. My concerns - first for my systems - are that it is allowing essentially anybody to submit almost anything with no QA. It's a BMG that's offical! My concern - for users - is that since it's officially supported they will expect things to work and when they don't - as they will not - Gentoo's reputation will suffer. Gentoo provides a means for people to participate on several levels. They can do as I did and do a few ebuild and submit them to bugzilla - if there's enough demand then they'll eventually get in portage. They can also take a quiz and do ebuilds on a more official level. Or they can work to be a developer. All of these paths ensure that we have proper QA and control. The sunrise people seem bent out of shape that ebuilds sit in bugzilla and don't get in the tree. One comment was that it's discouraging. Well, tough - the user who submitted it can get over it and realize that the application that is so precious to him is not that wonderful to anyone else. I did with mine - I understood that I did them to accomplish something I needed and I put them in bugzilla just in case anyone else had a need but I had no expectation of them going into portage. In fact one of my ebuilds was based on another ebuild someone put in portage for the same reason - the author had a need, wrote an ebuild and then shared it. If a user really wants his ebuild in portage he'll take the quiz and become a more official part of Gentoo - but he will have been tested and checked out. I administer systems (mainly Windows but also AIX and LInux - and Linux is my main home system!) at my job in IT Operations. Some of my systems can shutdown the business if I mess up. That's why I do things like run upgrades on test systems or use VMware to test out before I turn the changes loose. At home I also need my system to run and work. I won't be downloading Sunrise stuff but I UNDERSTAND the consequences - most users will not understand as they figure It's gentoo so it works. Look at the confusion with ~arch vs arch. People go with ~arch and then get upset when it breaks. I know I'm only one user but I'm really disappointed that the Council turned sunrise official. It gives me serious concern a bout Gentoo's reliablity and their reputation. On Sunday July 30 2006 23:06, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:50:31 -0400 Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | Show me at least that concern being concrete and we have a | starting place. -!- [Users #gentoo-sunrise] -!- @genstef devon bonsaikitten_ Zamorate eimono|home dev-zero brebs staskorz @nichoj_work eimono SunriseCIA richiefrich +Peper @CHTEKK SunriseBot TiCPU shillelagh Juippis -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- Brett I. Holcomb -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
OK wait, on your servers, are you actually planning to *use* any of the ebuilds in Sunrise's overlay? If not, how is it a concern? I personally don't use any of them, and my system is running perfectly fine. Let's not forget that nobody is shoving Sunrise down anyone's throat... -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sunday 30 July 2006 23:32, Brett I. Holcomb wrote: - first for my systems - are that it is allowing essentially anybody to submit almost anything with no QA. no, read the FAQ http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/SunriseFaq#Howareyouensuringthatthereisnob0rken/maliciuscodegettingintotheoverlay - for users - is that since it's officially supported they will expect things to work and when they don't - as they will not - Gentoo's reputation will suffer. i wont try and guess at what users will expect ... you can document everything and still there will be people who wont read them -mike pgpdkVXKoMlxU.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
My concern is beyond me. As I stated I know enough about what to expect IF I use sunrise. But many do not and with it becoming official people figure it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers. Gentoo has a reputation as a good solid, stable distro. As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - why couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG. Why does it have to be official? Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the same. I answered only because someone asked for user's concerns well this is mine and you all can do with the input as you please without any hard feelings on my part. On Sunday July 30 2006 23:42, Seemant Kulleen wrote: OK wait, on your servers, are you actually planning to *use* any of the ebuilds in Sunrise's overlay? If not, how is it a concern? I personally don't use any of them, and my system is running perfectly fine. Let's not forget that nobody is shoving Sunrise down anyone's throat... -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- Brett I. Holcomb -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On 7/30/06, Brett I. Holcomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: My concerns - first for my systems - are that it is allowing essentially anybody to submit almost anything with no QA. This no QA accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1]. Every single user-authored submission made available in the public overlay was placed there by existing Gentoo developers who've reviewed and approved them. When you check out Sunrise using layman for instance, you are getting what's known as the reviewed tree, not the tree that users commit directly to. If these facts still don't assuage your concerns then don't use the Sunrise overlay -- it's that simple. I suspect this myth perpetuates because its supporters haven't actually bothered to review the Sunrise procedures [2] already in place and in use. Another source of enlightenment which many, if not all, of the detractors don't seem to have indulged in is dropping by #gentoo-sunrise and watching the Sunrise process as it happens in practice. Please do your homework people, otherwise you're just spreading FUD. [1] http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/SunriseFaq [2] http://www.gentoo-sunrise.org/sunrise/wiki/HowToCommit -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 2006-07-30 at 23:50 -0400, Brett I. Holcomb wrote: My concern is beyond me. As I stated I know enough about what to expect IF I use sunrise. But many do not and with it becoming official people figure it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers. Gentoo has a reputation as a good solid, stable distro. As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - why couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG. Why does it have to be official? Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the same. BMG has, from day 1, been marginalised in the Gentoo community. I always fancied that they should've been folded into the larger Gentoo projects and become what Sunrise is today. The way I read you, your fear is based on the possibility of some future perception by an unknown number of people. Sunrise's idea is that stuff gets checked and re-checked and remains accessible -- have you read through their site and their commit histories and changesets? They're not exactly dawdling. As for Gentoo's reputation, I'm actually pleasantly surprised to hear it characterised that way :) If it has that reputation, then it will actually take a lot to break that. I'm surprised that ~keywords didn't already break it. I agree that the official portage tree is a QA nightmare. Sunrise seems to be nipping that nightmare for a future date -- ie by allowing people to commit and perform peer reviews, they're grooming the next generation of developers to look at QA from the outset, instead of as an afterthought. I answered only because someone asked for user's concerns well this is mine and you all can do with the input as you please without any hard feelings on my part. It's an exchange of ideas, there shouldn't be hard feelings on anyone's part. -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:20:16 -0500 Alex Tarkovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | This no QA accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo | developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1]. Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list? Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle doing QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you think four people can? -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 05:27 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list? Is this sort of degeneration really necessary? Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle doing QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you think four people can? I think, again, people are not looking at Sunrise as a training ground. It's better to start teaching people QA, and doing so in an active rather than a passive medium. Again, I haven't yet seen a reason to kill Sunrise. -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Mon, 31 Jul 2006 00:36:36 -0400 Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | On Mon, 2006-07-31 at 05:27 +0100, Ciaran McCreesh wrote: | Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list? | | Is this sort of degeneration really necessary? Considering how one of the major concerns about Sunrise is the QA aspect, I'd say that the ability of those in charge of its QA is extremely relevant... -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 22:42:52 -0400 Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | What, honestly, are people worried about with Sunrise? Partly, the part where it's run by people who have little clue about ebuild development or QA, who will be taking code from people who have little clue about ebuild development or QA and giving it to other people who have little clue about ebuild development or QA. Partly, the way it's bypassing the normal herd system and allowing unqualified developers to push code related to things they don't understand. Partly, the way it's being pushed through without proper discussion and without following the proper processes that're used to reduce the risk of major screwup. Sunrise is the wrong solution to a misrepresented problem being run by the wrong people. -- Ciaran McCreesh Mail: ciaran dot mccreesh at blueyonder.co.uk -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Ciaran McCreesh wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:20:16 -0500 Alex Tarkovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | This no QA accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo | developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1]. Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list? Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle doing QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you think four people can? Really now Ciaran, if you have issues with those people. Take it up with them. You've yet to state a reason why it concerns you. Its no better then the people who are saying that it'll be a huge QA issue but they are not elaborating on it. As some are aware and some are not, the basic job I do for gentoo is a QA one. I help to ensure the x86 arch tree is hopefully as stable as possible. So if anything this will affect me directly. I however want to see what the project can do. If it does end up as a problem then it can be killed off, but doing so before it has a chance to fly is part of what has been keeping us from innovating as a distribution. It means we're maturing, but we are still a community project and as such should be allowed to fly with possibly wild idea's when it suits us. As well, we are all human, as you are Ciaran. This means that we make mistakes. However, what you are also asking is to NOT trust those people who are qualified to be part of gentoo to be able to do the work and perform it in a decent way. I will not begin to doubt any of the people who have the gentoo flag as part of who they are because of being human. As has been said as well, we learn more from the mistakes we make then somehow having avoided it without realizing why. Thirdly, I know one of the issues with one of the leaders of the project, is the fact that they are not a ebuild developer. I'd like to have them take the second quiz simply to prove that they have the knowledge to be trusted to review the ebuilds. Course with the number that he's seen I'm sure he's helped take care of things that would make the rest of us go...how did they think that was ever a good idea. -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.4 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEzY0sSENan+PfizARAu2kAJ488MHWDCtFY8SKetoC1wxFtpPk7wCfW97W DxJvWeVcd87OukymD/M+Crs= =kdC9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On 7/30/06, Ciaran McCreesh [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:20:16 -0500 Alex Tarkovsky [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | This no QA accusation is a complete myth. QA led by actual Gentoo | developers is indeed in place at Sunrise [1]. Did you look at *which* actual Gentoo developers are on the list? I'm not certain what you're insinuating here, but yes, I'm a Sunrise contributor so I work with these Gentoo devs and watch them interact with everyone daily. They're quite competent, hard-working, friendly and helpful. Thanks largely in part to their efforts, 4 regular Sunrise contributors have already decided to increase their involvement by becoming trusted committers, and they may very soon become full-fledged Gentoo developers (the traditional way of course). Even that aside, if a couple of hundred developers can't handle doing QA for all those maintainer-wanted ebuilds, what makes you think four people can? Sunrise only became functional about a month ago. Give it time. It's true there are only 4 Gentoo devs *currently* presiding, but they only oversee the ~150 ebuilds that are currently in Sunrise. As Sunrise succeeds (and all indications are it's working quite well so far), more Gentoo devs will no doubt choose to participate. Also note that it isn't Sunrise's goal to move every single maintainer-wanted/maintainer-needed ebuild into the overlay, so it's not fair to judge the project's capabilities against such a lofty standard. -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Sun, 30 Jul 2006 23:50:40 -0400 Brett I. Holcomb [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, Continue with *top-posting* as it is. Does Gentoo gives more choises to users or not? With the freedom/choise comes the responsibility (if anything breaks). Gentoo is known not to be for *everybody* (unless he/she is willing to learn quite stubborn to use it). These ebuilds *are* already in Bugzilla, and for some there're people interested in maintaining/improving them. IMHO this is better then an ebuild/s which seats for 2-3 years and is of *outstanding quality*. The world is in motion not static. The overall concern (for me) with 'sunrise' similar is the availability (in advance) of some *good/understandable* information about some consequences in using such project/s. Just a warning no more. All this on main docs page (to be visible). E.g. some of the current *semi/official* overlays mess with the versions in the *main tree* so i have to mask/unmask things to do what i want (i accept this). Just my point of view, no more. Rumen My concern is beyond me. As I stated I know enough about what to expect IF I use sunrise. But many do not and with it becoming official people figure it's gentoo and when it breaks Gentoo suffers. Gentoo has a reputation as a good solid, stable distro. As user and big fan of Gentoo I'm concerned - why couldn't sunrise have stayed unoffical like BMG. Why does it have to be official? Gentoo can choose to do what it feels is right and I will do the same. I answered only because someone asked for user's concerns well this is mine and you all can do with the input as you please without any hard feelings on my part. On Sunday July 30 2006 23:42, Seemant Kulleen wrote: OK wait, on your servers, are you actually planning to *use* any of the ebuilds in Sunrise's overlay? If not, how is it a concern? I personally don't use any of them, and my system is running perfectly fine. Let's not forget that nobody is shoving Sunrise down anyone's throat... -- Seemant Kulleen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Foundation / Gentoo Linux -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 11:31:28PM -0700, Josh Saddler wrote: i'll miss you greatly, brix. You made my laptop and wireless (madwifi) worlds much much happier places. i'm on devaway, but when I'm back, if no one else has done it, i'll xmlify your pcmciautils doc -- you were the one who took the time to explain to me that -utils wouldn't bite this longterm -cs user. :) It's already XMLified - it just needs someone to write a few sentences :) good luck in all your future endeavors. hope i see you around irc. Thank you. Regards, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd pgpzKq4Bzi1Z8.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 11:35:24AM +0200, Martin Schlemmer wrote: Mike asked you repeatedly to voice your issues or concerns in relation to Project Sunrise, which you failed to reply to. How many times are we supposed to raise our concerns about a project whose founders already agreed to run their project as an unofficial project on non-gentoo infrastructure? Did you miss the logs from the devrel + sunrise meeting where genstef and jokey agreed to this? I simply had no idea the Gentoo Council even remotely considered taking Project Sunrise on as an official project. Also, I do not remember you even attending the meeting or asking to speak there, so this really seems a tad unreasonable or impulsive. Same as above - had I known that you guys actually intended to revert your own ruling from the previous meeting along with the consensus reached on the devrel + sunrise meeting I would have been there to raise my concerns. No big deal, though. Best of luck to all of you, including the people behind Project Sunrise. Regards, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd pgp0KqzyafX8t.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
On Fri, 2006-07-28 at 12:02 +0200, Henrik Brix Andersen wrote: On Fri, Jul 28, 2006 at 11:35:24AM +0200, Martin Schlemmer wrote: Mike asked you repeatedly to voice your issues or concerns in relation to Project Sunrise, which you failed to reply to. How many times are we supposed to raise our concerns about a project whose founders already agreed to run their project as an unofficial project on non-gentoo infrastructure? Did you miss the logs from the devrel + sunrise meeting where genstef and jokey agreed to this? Apparently they changed their minds, as Mike did state (as well as genstef) in that thread. I simply had no idea the Gentoo Council even remotely considered taking Project Sunrise on as an official project. Err, I miss to comprehend above??? You saw the item on the meeting agenda, made vague complaints, but yet did not know about this? Also, I do not remember you even attending the meeting or asking to speak there, so this really seems a tad unreasonable or impulsive. Same as above - had I known that you guys actually intended to revert your own ruling from the previous meeting along with the consensus reached on the devrel + sunrise meeting I would have been there to raise my concerns. Ditto, same again as above. I cannot see how you can state you did not know about it when you did actually complain about re-evaluating it. No big deal, though. Best of luck to all of you, including the people behind Project Sunrise. Do not get me wrong, the little I worked with you was not unpleasant or anything, and I really have no need or want to see you go, but your reasoning just do not add up. Anyhow, good luck whichever way you choose to go. Regards, -- Martin Schlemmer signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation (was: Project Sunrise resumed)
To my former fellow Gentoo developers and users, On Thu, Jul 27, 2006 at 11:58:09PM +0200, Stefan Schweizer wrote: To my fellow Gentoo developers and users, In last weeks council meeting [1] it was decided that the Sunrise project is no longer suspended. I can give a short overview of the current status of the overlay: Seeing this I'd like to resign as a Gentoo developer. Thank you to all the developers and users who have made the last two years a fun period of my life in OSS. You all know who you are. I'll miss you guys and gals. I wish the remaining developers good luck with keeping Gentoo Linux among the top GNU/Linux distributions out there. I can be reached at [EMAIL PROTECTED] should anybody have any questions to the ebuilds, I used to maintain. Sorry about dumping the ebuilds on the people who kindly took over when I announced my present hiatus - but I'm sure you'll do a good job at maintaining them. I have an unfinished draft for a pcmcia-cs to pcmciautils migration howto sitting in my home dir - I'd appreciate if someone would step up and finish it. So long and thank you for all the fish, Brix -- Henrik Brix Andersen [EMAIL PROTECTED] Gentoo Metadistribution | Mobile computing herd pgpehjJjlZS3n.pgp Description: PGP signature
[gentoo-dev] Resignation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 As most are aware I was only active dev in mozilla herd. I have decided that it is time to leave gentoo, which leaves herd unmaintained. Security team can do as they wish, they do not take the user to mind when they want to make hasty decision, without first attempting to work the herd to resolve a security issue that is in the tree. Our users have depreciated over the last year due to devs and just the direction gentoo has decided to go so I make the move with them. Good luck to everyone and were ever there ventures might take them.. Later Jory -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org iD8DBQFEnfUfGDfjNg8unQIRAtWbAKChlFsBk0uvPEASA36UaiXRLboKuQCgl3Q5 TWscpe7N6Q5iT66FP5jGK0Y= =sTh9 -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 Another one bites the dust Another one bites the dust And another one gone, and another one gone Another one bites the dust Hey, Im gonna get you too Another one bites the dust -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.4.3 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQFEngJPSENan+PfizARAtd+AJsExp/AioX1rRHKa2Gxxo+NvMmnhACfee/H v7s1dc4z8voTjxfMW/FivRI= =sv3j -END PGP SIGNATURE- -- gentoo-dev@gentoo.org mailing list
Re: [gentoo-dev] Resignation
Brian, you'll be missed... can you at least pop by once and i while? always enjoyed humping you... /me 's list off biatchus is reducing... good luck in the future mate, may you conquer your fears and reach your dreams... don't forget Ne humanus crede -- Defer no time, delays have dangerous ends Ne humanus crede Jochen Maes Gentoo Linux Gentoo Belgium http://sejo.be http://gentoo.be http://gentoo.org signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature
