Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USB crucial file recovery

[Alan McKinnon]

On 31/08/2016 02:08, Grant wrote:
 And why use exfat if you use linux? It is just not needed at all.
>>>
>>> I agree.  If you want to transport something between Linux systems,
>>> use ext2/3 and use "mount" options to handle the permission issues.
>>
>> You can't control ownership and permissions of existing files with mount
>> options on a Linux filesystem. See man mount.
> 
> 
> So in order to use a USB stick between multiple Gentoo systems with
> ext2, I need to make sure my users have matching UIDs/GIDs?

Yes

The uids/gids/modes in the inodes themselves are the owners and perms,
you cannot override them.

So unless you have mode=666, you will need matching UIDs/GIDs (which is
a royal massive pain in the butt to bring about without NIS or similar

>  I think
> this is how I ended up on NTFS in the first place.

Didn't we have this discussion about a year ago? Sounds familiar now

>  Is there a
> filesystem that will make that unnecessary and exhibit better
> reliability than NTFS?

Yes, FAT. It works and works well.
Or exFAT which is Microsoft's solution to the problem of very large
files on FAT.

Which NTFS system are you using?

ntfs kernel module? It's quite dodgy and unsafe with writes
ntfs-ng on fuse? I find that one quite solid


ntfs-ng does have an annoyance that has bitten me more than once. When
ntfs-nf writes to an FS, it can get marked dirty. Somehow, when used in
a Windows machine the driver there has issues with the FS. Remount it in
Linux again and all is good.

The cynic in me says that Microsoft didn'y implement their own FS spec
properly whereas ntfs-ng did :-)



-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USB crucial file recovery

[Grant]

>> > And why use exfat if you use linux? It is just not needed at all.
>>
>> I agree.  If you want to transport something between Linux systems,
>> use ext2/3 and use "mount" options to handle the permission issues.
>
> You can't control ownership and permissions of existing files with mount
> options on a Linux filesystem. See man mount.


So in order to use a USB stick between multiple Gentoo systems with
ext2, I need to make sure my users have matching UIDs/GIDs?  I think
this is how I ended up on NTFS in the first place.  Is there a
filesystem that will make that unnecessary and exhibit better
reliability than NTFS?

- Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USB crucial file recovery

[Alan McKinnon]

On 31/08/2016 01:06, Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2016-08-30, Neil Bothwick  wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 20:42:05 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
>>
 And why use exfat if you use linux? It is just not needed at all.  
>>>
>>> I agree.  If you want to transport something between Linux systems,
>>> use ext2/3 and use "mount" options to handle the permission issues.
>>
>> You can't control ownership and permissions of existing files with mount
>> options on a Linux filesystem. See man mount.
> 
> Oops, you're right.  I guess the options I was thinking of don't work
> for ext2/3.  They do work for fat, cifs, hfs, hpfs, ntfs, iso9660, and
> various others.
> 
> I very rarely put a writable filesystem on a USB flash drive. I treat
> them either as a CD/DVD for installation ISO images, or I use them as
> "tapes" and just tar stuff to/from them.
> 
> I do make a point of using consistent UID/GID values across multiple
> installations, so on the rare occasions I do put a writable filesystem
> on a flash drive, it "just works".
> 



Something intrigues me about this thread:

If the file in question is so valuable and expensive, why don't you make
another copy of the original onto a new USB stick?

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

[gentoo-user] Re: USB crucial file recovery

[Grant Edwards]

On 2016-08-30, Neil Bothwick  wrote:
> On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 20:42:05 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:
>
>> > And why use exfat if you use linux? It is just not needed at all.  
>> 
>> I agree.  If you want to transport something between Linux systems,
>> use ext2/3 and use "mount" options to handle the permission issues.
>
> You can't control ownership and permissions of existing files with mount
> options on a Linux filesystem. See man mount.

Oops, you're right.  I guess the options I was thinking of don't work
for ext2/3.  They do work for fat, cifs, hfs, hpfs, ntfs, iso9660, and
various others.

I very rarely put a writable filesystem on a USB flash drive. I treat
them either as a CD/DVD for installation ISO images, or I use them as
"tapes" and just tar stuff to/from them.

I do make a point of using consistent UID/GID values across multiple
installations, so on the rare occasions I do put a writable filesystem
on a flash drive, it "just works".

-- 
Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USB crucial file recovery

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 20:42:05 + (UTC), Grant Edwards wrote:

> > And why use exfat if you use linux? It is just not needed at all.  
> 
> I agree.  If you want to transport something between Linux systems,
> use ext2/3 and use "mount" options to handle the permission issues.

You can't control ownership and permissions of existing files with mount
options on a Linux filesystem. See man mount.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The people who are wrapped up in themselves are overdressed.


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Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 13:32:19 -0700, Grant wrote:

> If I use ext2 on the USB stick, can I mount and use it as any user on
> any Gentoo system from within a file manager like thunar?

No, because ext2 uses proper Linux file permissions.
 
> Should I consider ext3/4 with journaling disabled?

That's basically ext2, unless you want some of the more advanced options
of ext4.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I've got a Mickey Mouse PC with a Goofy operating system.


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Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 20:12:12 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> >> OP is looking for an fs to put on a memory stick that will work
> >> everywhere:
> >>
> >> - vfat
> >> - exfat  
> >
> > He asked for something that would work "across Gentoo systems".
> >
> >  
> 
> How does exfat not fulfil that?

It does fulfil it, but so does ext2, which you were ruling out by saying
it had to work everywhere. My main issue with exfat is its lack of
maturity. I use it for video files but I'm not sure I'd trust something
critical to it. There again, I'd rather not trust anything critical to a
USB stick regardless of filesystem.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

A real programmer never documents his code.
It was hard to make, it should be hard to read


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Re: [gentoo-user] removal of bopm before hopm is in tree

[Raymond Jennings]

Also of note is that the bopm confug uses blacklists other than njabl which
are still active.

Re: [gentoo-user] removal of bopm before hopm is in tree

[Raymond Jennings]

On Fri, Aug 26, 2016 at 6:43 AM, Michael Mol  wrote:

> On Thursday, August 25, 2016 07:29:35 PM Raymond Jennings wrote:
> > I still use bopm, and it built fine last time I emerged it.
> >
> > If hopm isn't in the tree yet, why was bopm still pmasked for removal?
> >
> > Reason for asking is I'm curious about removal procedures.  I was under
> the
> > impression that replacement packages get added to the tree before their
> > obsolete predecessors get pmasked for booting out.
> >
> > And if that's not the case, should it be?
>
> https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=473754
>
> has a bug noting why bopm is being removed. It was mentioned in there that
> hopm isn't in tree, sure. It's also mentioned that bopm's default
> configuration
> doesn't really do anything, as it depends on a service that was shuttered
> back
> in 2013. (If I read the bug report correctly.)
>

Interestingly I'm the one who filed that bug and also mentioned that its
replacement wasn't in tree yet.

However, note that in that bug, bopm is listed has not having a maintainer
> in
> Gentoo...no dev (or volunteer) is maintaining it. Without a maintainer,
> there's nobody with access who's motivated to add hopm.
>
> If you'd like to see hopm in the tree, you care more about it than any of
> the
> current devs. Which means you should probably look at
> https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Proxy_Maintainers and see about
> becoming
> a proxy maintainer for it.
>

I've already done that for bopm, and thanks to Soap I was able to fix a
buttload of problems with the old ebuild while I was at it.

I think considering that bopm is still in active use in general (I've seen
at least two other popular IRC networks using it), I'll just keep
maintaining it until it breaks...or at least until hopm is in tree.


> --
> :wq

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USB crucial file recovery

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 30.08.2016 um 23:59 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
>  wrote:
>> the journal does not add any data integrity benefits at all. It just
>> makes it more likely that the fs is in a sane state if there is a crash.
>> Likely. Not a guarantee. Your data? No one cares.
>>
> That depends on the mode of operation.  In journal=data I believe
> everything gets written twice, which should make it fairly immune to
> most forms of corruption.

nope. Crash at the wrong time, data gone. FS hopefully sane.

>
> f2fs would also have this benefit.  Data is not overwritten in-place
> in a log-based filesystem; they're essentially journaled by their
> design (actually, they're basically what you get if you ditch the
> regular part of the filesystem and keep nothing but the journal).
>
>> If you want an fs that cares about your data: zfs.
>>
> I won't argue that the COW filesystems have better data security
> features.  It will be nice when they're stable in the main kernel.
>

it is not so much about cow, but integrity checks all the way from the
moment the cpu spends some cycles on it. Caught some silent file
corruptions that way. Switched to ECC ram and never saw them again.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USB crucial file recovery

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 4:58 PM, Volker Armin Hemmann
 wrote:
>
> the journal does not add any data integrity benefits at all. It just
> makes it more likely that the fs is in a sane state if there is a crash.
> Likely. Not a guarantee. Your data? No one cares.
>

That depends on the mode of operation.  In journal=data I believe
everything gets written twice, which should make it fairly immune to
most forms of corruption.

f2fs would also have this benefit.  Data is not overwritten in-place
in a log-based filesystem; they're essentially journaled by their
design (actually, they're basically what you get if you ditch the
regular part of the filesystem and keep nothing but the journal).

> If you want an fs that cares about your data: zfs.
>

I won't argue that the COW filesystems have better data security
features.  It will be nice when they're stable in the main kernel.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Mick]

On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 15:30:51 Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 13:38:13 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> > On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 11:56:50 AM Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > > On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > > You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
> > > > reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
> > > > wrong."
> > > 
> > > Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know*) the folder list contains an
> > > item
> > > "trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much
> > > better) in the drop-down menu.
> > 
> > Check your language/internationisation settings.
> > The translations is from "kde-apps/kdepim-l10n"
> 
> I can't find anything wrong with those settings. Everything is set to
> British English.
> 
> $ locale -a
> C
> en_GB
> en_GB.iso88591
> en_GB.iso885915
> en_GB.utf8
> POSIX
> 
> $ eselect locale list
> Available targets for the LANG variable:
>   [1]   C
>   [2]   en_GB
>   [3]   en_GB.iso88591
>   [4]   en_GB.iso885915
>   [5]   en_GB.utf8 *
>   [6]   POSIX
>   [ ]   (free form)

This is all OK.


> > > And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one,
> > > setting KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings
> > > panel has no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored,
> > > even though it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if
> > > I revert to the original home directory, which has followed events
> > > through the last six months, those faults disappear.
> > 
> > Hmm... not sure where this comes from
> 
> But this time, the single-click-to-open preference is still ignored.
> 
> You see, the system is behaving inconsistently - even irrationally at times.

The latest Konqueror (stable) update to 4.14.20 fixed the one click problem, as 
well as opening files within Konqueror itself, rather than opening a separate 
dolphin window.  Dolphin is still borked and behaves /irrationally/.  I hope 
the next update will fix that too.
-- 
Regards,
Mick

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Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USB crucial file recovery

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 30.08.2016 um 22:46 schrieb Rich Freeman:
> On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Grant Edwards
>  wrote:
>> There's nothing in Gentoo that guarantees everybody has ext2 support
>> in their kernels.  That said, I agree that ext2 (or perhaps ext3 with
>> journalling disabled -- I've always been a bit fuzzy on whether that's
>> exactly the same thing or not)
> Sorry, I just wanted to chime in on one thing.  While a journal
> probably will cause more flash wear, it also potentially adds data
> integrity.
>
> Now consider that the original message that started this whole thread
> was important files being stored on flash and being corrupted.
> Getting rid of the journal might not be the best move.
>
> Unless you have a LOT of writes to flash you're not going to wear it
> out, especially with wear-leveling algorithms.
>
> Oh, and finally, if it matters that much, have a backup...
>

the journal does not add any data integrity benefits at all. It just
makes it more likely that the fs is in a sane state if there is a crash.
Likely. Not a guarantee. Your data? No one cares.

If you want an fs that cares about your data: zfs.

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 30.08.2016 um 22:32 schrieb Grant:
 ext2 doesn't have a journal, that's why I suggested it in the
 first
> place.
 My point was against all the journalised filesystems (that
 includes
 NTFS), not against your advice ;)

>>> OP is looking for an fs to put on a memory stick that will work
>>> everywhere:
>>>
>>> - vfat
>>> - exfat
>> He asked for something that would work "across Gentoo systems".
>>
>>
> How does exfat not fulfil that?
>
>
 because exfat does not work across gentoo systems. ext2 does.
>>> Exfat works when the drivers are installed.
>>> Same goes for ext2.
>>>
>>> It is possible to not have support for ext2/3 or 4 and still have a fully 
>>> functional system. (Btrfs or zfs for the full system for instance)
>>>
>>> When using UEFI boot, a vfat partition with support is required.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Joost
>> ext2 is on every system, exfat not. ext2 is very stable, tested and well
>> aged. exfat is some fuse something crap. New, hardly tested and unstable
>> as it gets.
>>
>> And why use exfat if you use linux? It is just not needed at all.
>
> If I use ext2 on the USB stick, can I mount and use it as any user on
> any Gentoo system from within a file manager like thunar?
>
> Should I consider ext3/4 with journaling disabled?
>
> - Grant
>
>

kde and lxde never had any problems on my systems.

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: USB crucial file recovery

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 4:42 PM, Grant Edwards
 wrote:
>
> There's nothing in Gentoo that guarantees everybody has ext2 support
> in their kernels.  That said, I agree that ext2 (or perhaps ext3 with
> journalling disabled -- I've always been a bit fuzzy on whether that's
> exactly the same thing or not)

Sorry, I just wanted to chime in on one thing.  While a journal
probably will cause more flash wear, it also potentially adds data
integrity.

Now consider that the original message that started this whole thread
was important files being stored on flash and being corrupted.
Getting rid of the journal might not be the best move.

Unless you have a LOT of writes to flash you're not going to wear it
out, especially with wear-leveling algorithms.

Oh, and finally, if it matters that much, have a backup...

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 4:32 PM, Grant  wrote:
>>
>> ext2 is on every system, exfat not. ext2 is very stable, tested and well
>> aged. exfat is some fuse something crap. New, hardly tested and unstable
>> as it gets.
>>
>
> If I use ext2 on the USB stick, can I mount and use it as any user on
> any Gentoo system from within a file manager like thunar?
>

Ext2 will work on any Gentoo system that has it enabled in the kernel,
the same as just about any filesystem that has been created.


Ext2 support is fairly likely to be enabled due to its ubiquity, but
you can certainly run a linux kernel without it, as has already been
pointed out.  If you stick your USB drive in an Android phone, for
example, you might just find that it lacks support for the filesystem
(no doubt many/most Android systems using it for the OS, but since it
is a closed ecosystem with 100% flash they might also use f2fs, yaffs,
or even btrfs (which can be quite stable if you carefully control how
it is used, especially on read-only filesystems)).

-- 
Rich

[gentoo-user] Re: USB crucial file recovery

[Grant Edwards]

On 2016-08-30, Volker Armin Hemmann  wrote:

> ext2 is on every system,

Unless it isn't.

There's nothing in Gentoo that guarantees everybody has ext2 support
in their kernels.  That said, I agree that ext2 (or perhaps ext3 with
journalling disabled -- I've always been a bit fuzzy on whether that's
exactly the same thing or not) is as close to a "universal" Linux
filesystem as you're going to get. I would guess that the percentage
of Gentoo systems that suport ext2/3 is _way_ _way_ higher than the
percentage that support exfat.

> exfat not. ext2 is very stable, tested and well aged. exfat is some
> fuse something crap. New, hardly tested and unstable as it gets.
>
> And why use exfat if you use linux? It is just not needed at all.

I agree.  If you want to transport something between Linux systems,
use ext2/3 and use "mount" options to handle the permission issues.

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! JAPAN is a WONDERFUL
  at   planet -- I wonder if we'll
  gmail.comever reach their level of
   COMPARATIVE SHOPPING ...

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Grant]

>>> ext2 doesn't have a journal, that's why I suggested it in the
>>> first
 place.
>>> My point was against all the journalised filesystems (that
>>> includes
>>> NTFS), not against your advice ;)
>>>
>>
>> OP is looking for an fs to put on a memory stick that will work
>> everywhere:
>>
>> - vfat
>> - exfat
> He asked for something that would work "across Gentoo systems".
>
>
 How does exfat not fulfil that?


>>> because exfat does not work across gentoo systems. ext2 does.
>> Exfat works when the drivers are installed.
>> Same goes for ext2.
>>
>> It is possible to not have support for ext2/3 or 4 and still have a fully 
>> functional system. (Btrfs or zfs for the full system for instance)
>>
>> When using UEFI boot, a vfat partition with support is required.
>>
>> --
>> Joost
>
> ext2 is on every system, exfat not. ext2 is very stable, tested and well
> aged. exfat is some fuse something crap. New, hardly tested and unstable
> as it gets.
>
> And why use exfat if you use linux? It is just not needed at all.


If I use ext2 on the USB stick, can I mount and use it as any user on
any Gentoo system from within a file manager like thunar?

Should I consider ext3/4 with journaling disabled?

- Grant

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 30.08.2016 um 21:14 schrieb J. Roeleveld:
> On August 30, 2016 8:58:17 PM GMT+02:00, Volker Armin Hemmann 
>  wrote:
>> Am 30.08.2016 um 20:12 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
>>> On 30/08/2016 14:04, Neil Bothwick wrote:
 On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 12:08:13 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

>>> ext2 doesn't have a journal, that's why I suggested it in the
>> first
>>> place.
>> My point was against all the journalised filesystems (that
>> includes
>> NTFS), not against your advice ;)
>>
>
> OP is looking for an fs to put on a memory stick that will work
> everywhere:
>
> - vfat
> - exfat
 He asked for something that would work "across Gentoo systems".


>>> How does exfat not fulfil that?
>>>
>>>
>> because exfat does not work across gentoo systems. ext2 does.
> Exfat works when the drivers are installed.
> Same goes for ext2.
>
> It is possible to not have support for ext2/3 or 4 and still have a fully 
> functional system. (Btrfs or zfs for the full system for instance)
>
> When using UEFI boot, a vfat partition with support is required.
>
> --
> Joost

ext2 is on every system, exfat not. ext2 is very stable, tested and well
aged. exfat is some fuse something crap. New, hardly tested and unstable
as it gets.

And why use exfat if you use linux? It is just not needed at all.

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[R0b0t1]

On Sun, Aug 28, 2016 at 1:49 PM, Grant  wrote:
> I decided to copy a 10GB file from a USB hard disk directly to the USB
> stick this morning and I ran into errors so I canceled the operation
> and now the file manager (thunar) has been stuck for well over an hour
> and I'm getting errors like these over and over:

As mentioned try ddrescue and then recovery software on the resulting
images. As a last option it is possible to desolder the flash and
access it directly.

Good information to lead with is how much the file cost to produce.

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[J. Roeleveld]

On August 30, 2016 8:58:17 PM GMT+02:00, Volker Armin Hemmann 
 wrote:
>Am 30.08.2016 um 20:12 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
>> On 30/08/2016 14:04, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 12:08:13 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>>
>> ext2 doesn't have a journal, that's why I suggested it in the
>first
>> place.
>
> My point was against all the journalised filesystems (that
>includes
> NTFS), not against your advice ;)
>


 OP is looking for an fs to put on a memory stick that will work
 everywhere:

 - vfat
 - exfat
>>>
>>> He asked for something that would work "across Gentoo systems".
>>>
>>>
>>
>> How does exfat not fulfil that?
>>
>>
>
>because exfat does not work across gentoo systems. ext2 does.

Exfat works when the drivers are installed.
Same goes for ext2.

It is possible to not have support for ext2/3 or 4 and still have a fully 
functional system. (Btrfs or zfs for the full system for instance)

When using UEFI boot, a vfat partition with support is required.

--
Joost
-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Volker Armin Hemmann]

Am 30.08.2016 um 20:12 schrieb Alan McKinnon:
> On 30/08/2016 14:04, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 12:08:13 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:
>>
> ext2 doesn't have a journal, that's why I suggested it in the first
> place.

 My point was against all the journalised filesystems (that includes
 NTFS), not against your advice ;)

>>>
>>>
>>> OP is looking for an fs to put on a memory stick that will work
>>> everywhere:
>>>
>>> - vfat
>>> - exfat
>>
>> He asked for something that would work "across Gentoo systems".
>>
>>
>
> How does exfat not fulfil that?
>
>

because exfat does not work across gentoo systems. ext2 does.

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Alan McKinnon]

On 30/08/2016 12:56, Peter Humphrey wrote:

On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:


You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
wrong."


Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know*) the folder list contains an item
"trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much
better) in the drop-down menu.

And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one, setting
KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings panel has
no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored, even though
it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if I revert to the
original home directory, which has followed events through the last six
months, those faults disappear.


How would @system possibly affect that?

True, in theory any software can have an influence on any other software 
and cause breakage; but with those symptoms you ought to be 
investigating @system last, not first


Your problems lie within KDE itself, I'd bet hard-earned money on that





Work the real problem, not an assumed one :-)


Of course - when I can find it! I'm just trying to ensure that the system is
clean before I go tilting at windmills. Possibly, I'm just seeing the
immaturity of KDE-5. So be it, if so.

* I've seen references to KMail 5.0.3 already Out There, so I'm sticking
with it in the hope that 5.* will be more solid.

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Alan McKinnon]

On 30/08/2016 14:04, Neil Bothwick wrote:

On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 12:08:13 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:


ext2 doesn't have a journal, that's why I suggested it in the first
place.


My point was against all the journalised filesystems (that includes
NTFS), not against your advice ;)




OP is looking for an fs to put on a memory stick that will work
everywhere:

- vfat
- exfat


He asked for something that would work "across Gentoo systems".




How does exfat not fulfil that?

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 13:38:13 J. Roeleveld wrote:
> On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 11:56:50 AM Peter Humphrey wrote:
> > On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > > You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
> > > reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
> > > wrong."
> > 
> > Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know*) the folder list contains an
> > item
> > "trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much
> > better) in the drop-down menu.
> 
> Check your language/internationisation settings.
> The translations is from "kde-apps/kdepim-l10n"

I can't find anything wrong with those settings. Everything is set to 
British English.

$ locale -a
C
en_GB
en_GB.iso88591
en_GB.iso885915
en_GB.utf8
POSIX

$ eselect locale list
Available targets for the LANG variable:
  [1]   C
  [2]   en_GB
  [3]   en_GB.iso88591
  [4]   en_GB.iso885915
  [5]   en_GB.utf8 *
  [6]   POSIX
  [ ]   (free form)

> > And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one,
> > setting KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings
> > panel has no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored,
> > even though it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if
> > I revert to the original home directory, which has followed events
> > through the last six months, those faults disappear.
> 
> Hmm... not sure where this comes from

But this time, the single-click-to-open preference is still ignored.

You see, the system is behaving inconsistently - even irrationally at times.

--->8

> > * I've seen references to KMail 5.0.3 already Out There, so I'm sticking
> > with it in the hope that 5.* will be more solid.
> 
> I'm still using Kmail 4.x until Kmail 5 becomes unmasked...

As far as I can see, Kmail 5 isn't even in the tree yet.

> If you want a truly clean build:
> emerge -ae @system
> emerge -ae @world
> emerge -a --depclean
> 
> (That's what I did last time I had too many strange issues)

I've done that or similar many times over the last several weeks. I think 
I'm left with just one sensible option: to build a new system from scratch, 
complete with a new user account, not carrying anything but necessities over 
from the current system.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: Shutter alternatives

[Raffaele BELARDI]

Grant Edwards wrote:
> On 2016-08-30, Raffaele BELARDI  wrote:
>
>> If dumping a single X window is sufficient there is also x11-apps/xwd,
>> which I use together with convert from imagemagik:
>>
>> $ /usr/bin/xwd | convert - screenshot.png
>
> That seems a bit redundant.  If you have imagemagick, just use
> 'import':
>
>$ import screenshot.png
>$ import screenshot.jpg
>$ import screenshot.eps
>$ import screenshot

:-)

good to know, I started with xwd but the output format did not suit me, 
so I used convert but did not notice there was an import also...

raffaele

[gentoo-user] Re: Shutter alternatives

[Grant Edwards]

On 2016-08-30, Raffaele BELARDI  wrote:

> If dumping a single X window is sufficient there is also x11-apps/xwd, 
> which I use together with convert from imagemagik:
>
> $ /usr/bin/xwd | convert - screenshot.png

That seems a bit redundant.  If you have imagemagick, just use
'import':

  $ import screenshot.png
  $ import screenshot.jpg
  $ import screenshot.eps
  $ import screenshot

-- 
Grant Edwards   grant.b.edwardsYow! Wait ... is this a FUN
  at   THING or the END of LIFE in
  gmail.comPetticoat Junction??

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Rich Freeman]

On Tue, Aug 30, 2016 at 1:35 AM, Azamat Hackimov
 wrote:
>
> I would recommend to use F2FS filesystem, since you have only Linux systems.
>

As a user of immature filesystems, I would not recommend F2FS unless
you want to be a user of immature filesystems.  Remember how he got
into this situation in the first place...

But, sure, F2FS is fairly ideally-suited to a USB drive in theory,
assuming the drive doesn't try to be overly clever with how it maps
all the writes.

-- 
Rich

Re: [gentoo-user] python-updater: depclean removes it?

[J. Roeleveld]

On Monday, August 29, 2016 05:10:37 PM Daniel Frey wrote:
> On 08/29/2016 03:39 PM, Michael Orlitzky wrote:
> > On 08/29/2016 06:10 PM, Alan McKinnon wrote:
> >> What replaces it's functionality, or what is now in the codebase that
> >> guarantees the problems python-updater fixed can't happen anymore?
> > 
> > *shrug*
> > 
> > mgorny says:
> >   It's obsolete for a long time (pretty much since PYTHON_TARGETS
> >   become widespread), full of bugs and pretty much useless these days.
> >   It will be masked for removal soon. However, we are giving people a
> >   few more weeks to get it cleaned out of their systems to avoid any
> >   potential issues.
> > 
> > https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=590120
> 
> Ah, that's why I didn't find a bug, it was closed already.
> 
> Dan

For something like this, a news-item would have been more useful than a 
message in a bug-report.

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 12:08:13 +0200, Alan McKinnon wrote:

> >> ext2 doesn't have a journal, that's why I suggested it in the first
> >> place.  
> > 
> > My point was against all the journalised filesystems (that includes
> > NTFS), not against your advice ;)
> >   
> 
> 
> OP is looking for an fs to put on a memory stick that will work
> everywhere:
> 
> - vfat
> - exfat

He asked for something that would work "across Gentoo systems".


-- 
Neil Bothwick

I don't suffer from insanity. I enjoy every minute of it.


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Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 11:43:13 +0200, Alarig Le Lay wrote:

> On Tue Aug 30 10:40:01 2016, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> > ext2 doesn't have a journal, that's why I suggested it in the first
> > place.  
> 
> My point was against all the journalised filesystems (that includes
> NTFS), not against your advice ;)

That's a good point. For compatibility, exFAT seems a good choice,
although I'm not sure how mature/stable it is on Linux. I've used it a
little with no issues.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

In plumbing, a straight flush is better than a full house.


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Description: OpenPGP digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[J. Roeleveld]

On Tuesday, August 30, 2016 11:56:50 AM Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
> > reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
> > wrong."
> 
> Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know*) the folder list contains an item
> "trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much
> better) in the drop-down menu.

Check your language/internationisation settings.
The translations is from "kde-apps/kdepim-l10n"

> And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one, setting
> KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings panel has
> no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored, even though
> it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if I revert to the
> original home directory, which has followed events through the last six
> months, those faults disappear.

Hmm... not sure where this comes from

> > Work the real problem, not an assumed one :-)
> 
> Of course - when I can find it! I'm just trying to ensure that the system is
> clean before I go tilting at windmills. Possibly, I'm just seeing the
> immaturity of KDE-5. So be it, if so.

Could be...

> * I've seen references to KMail 5.0.3 already Out There, so I'm sticking
> with it in the hope that 5.* will be more solid.

I'm still using Kmail 4.x until Kmail 5 becomes unmasked...

If you want a truly clean build:
emerge -ae @system
emerge -ae @world
emerge -a --depclean

(That's what I did last time I had too many strange issues)

--
Joost

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 11:56:50 I wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> > You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
> > reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
> > wrong."
> 
> Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know) the folder list contains an item
> "trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much
> better) in the drop-down menu.
> 
> And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one, setting
> KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings panel has
> no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored, even though
> it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if I revert to
> the original home directory, which has followed events through the last
> six months, those faults disappear.

One more: I've just emerged sci-misc/boinc, and portage overwrote 
/etc/conf.d/boinc without asking for permission. I have  
/usr/share/applications/boincmgr-boinc.desktop in CONFIG_PROTECT; that was 
overwritten too.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 12:06:43 Alan McKinnon wrote:

> You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
> reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
> wrong."

Here's one then: In KMail (yes, I know*) the folder list contains an item 
"trash" (ugh!), but when I come to empty it it's called "Wastebin" (much 
better) in the drop-down menu.

And another: if I move my user account away and create a new one, setting 
KDE plasma up from scratch (this is ~amd64), the system-settings panel has 
no icons and the single-click-to-open preference is ignored, even though 
it's the default and I already have it set anyway. Then, if I revert to the 
original home directory, which has followed events through the last six 
months, those faults disappear.

> Work the real problem, not an assumed one :-)

Of course - when I can find it! I'm just trying to ensure that the system is 
clean before I go tilting at windmills. Possibly, I'm just seeing the 
immaturity of KDE-5. So be it, if so.

* I've seen references to KMail 5.0.3 already Out There, so I'm sticking 
with it in the hope that 5.* will be more solid.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Alan McKinnon]

On 30/08/2016 11:43, Alarig Le Lay wrote:
> On Tue Aug 30 10:40:01 2016, Neil Bothwick wrote:
>> ext2 doesn't have a journal, that's why I suggested it in the first place.
> 
> My point was against all the journalised filesystems (that includes
> NTFS), not against your advice ;)
> 


OP is looking for an fs to put on a memory stick that will work everywhere:

- vfat
- exfat

-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Alan McKinnon]

On 30/08/2016 11:25, Peter Humphrey wrote:
> On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 00:07:53 Alan McKinnon wrote:
> 
>> Don't forget that @system only lives in a context, and the context is a
>> real computer.
>>
>> Out of context it's just a list of strings. In context, it's strings
>> that means packages, with deps and everything else that needs to be
>> built for @system to mean anything on the machine it's added to.
>>
>> One never needs to define @system, that is already done in a profile so
>> it's not something that means sense to migrate or re-use elsewhere.
>> Don't worry about @system, worry about USE and get that right. Emerge
>> will deal with what it takes to give the user the @system he's really
>> asking for.
>>
>> Or maybe I don't completely understand yet Peter's actual question.
> 
> Hmm. I do seem to have a knack of not saying quite what I mean these days.
> 
> I want to define a minimal set to make sure the tool chain is correct and 
> free of faults, not just up to date, before doing anything else. Then I can 
> use that to build whatever other parts of the system I may be suspicious of. 
> I know that portage will work out a good order of battle, but it assumes 
> correctness in the tool chain: its job is to keep the system current. If 
> there is a problem in the tools, it's going to cause problems when the rest 
> of the system is built.
> 
> Quite a while ago I came across some advice to emerge gcc first, then glibc 
> and libtool, then whatever else is needed (@system, @world etc). I've been 
> doing that, but it does seem a bit minimal. That's why I thought of this 
> sysbase idea.
> 
> You may wonder why I suspect my system at all. The reason is an intermittent 
> series of apparently unrelated things going wrong. This box is only six 
> months old and it contains some very recent hardware, and I'm not quite 
> convinced that I have everything set up just right.
> 

You have been given silly advice because things just do not work that
way. The set you want is @system.

It looks like you want to guarantee that portage's tools are 100%
correct so that portage can be assured it is using good stuff. But the
tool that you use to build those tools and get them correct is portage
itself :-)

There are only 3 ways to get a new improved toolchain:

- use a stage 3 which provides one
- use a stage 1 and do the whole thing by hand
- use portage

There's nothing wrong with using #3. Portage doesn't use the toolchain
much to get things going as it's python. As long as you have a decent
working python you are pretty much good to go. Of course it may use the
existing toolchain to rebuild the toolchain so you need to have a
toolchain first - which you get from a stage 1 or stage 3.

In any event, it's not just a case of building gcc - to get the latest
version portage needs curl, wget, zlib, tar and a bucket load of other
stuff t even fetch the code. Then it needs autotools and everything else
make uses to build it.

So really you are trying to fix a suspect system by rebuilding a good
system using the suspect system. And that just ain't never gonna work.
Maybe in some other universe, but not this one.

Just rebuild @system and let portage do it's thing - the result you will
get is exactly the same you will have after you update all of world, and
that is the toolchain you will use forever more. Any and all advice you
stumble across about rebuilding gcc and glibc and stuff is nonsense,
backwards and going the wrong way.


You should elaborate more and be specific on what you mean by "The
reason is an intermittent series of apparently unrelated things going
wrong."

Work the real problem, not an assumed one :-)


-- 
Alan McKinnon
alan.mckin...@gmail.com

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Alarig Le Lay]

On Tue Aug 30 10:40:01 2016, Neil Bothwick wrote:
> ext2 doesn't have a journal, that's why I suggested it in the first place.

My point was against all the journalised filesystems (that includes
NTFS), not against your advice ;)

-- 
alarig


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Description: Digital signature

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 10:29:00 +0200, Alarig Le Lay wrote:

> > So I'm done with NTFS forever.  Will ext2 somehow allow me to use the
> > USB stick across Gentoo systems without permission/ownership
> > problems?  
> 
> I always use pmount for USB and other flash devices to have it
> mounted with my user permissions at all times.
> Anyway, I don’t recommend you to use a journalised filesystem on a USB
> stick, as it liable to write wearing. You will deteriorate it
> prematurely.

ext2 doesn't have a journal, that's why I suggested it in the first place.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

What Aussies lack in Humour they make up for in Beer!


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Re: [gentoo-user] emerge @system

[Peter Humphrey]

On Tuesday 30 Aug 2016 00:07:53 Alan McKinnon wrote:

> Don't forget that @system only lives in a context, and the context is a
> real computer.
> 
> Out of context it's just a list of strings. In context, it's strings
> that means packages, with deps and everything else that needs to be
> built for @system to mean anything on the machine it's added to.
> 
> One never needs to define @system, that is already done in a profile so
> it's not something that means sense to migrate or re-use elsewhere.
> Don't worry about @system, worry about USE and get that right. Emerge
> will deal with what it takes to give the user the @system he's really
> asking for.
> 
> Or maybe I don't completely understand yet Peter's actual question.

Hmm. I do seem to have a knack of not saying quite what I mean these days.

I want to define a minimal set to make sure the tool chain is correct and 
free of faults, not just up to date, before doing anything else. Then I can 
use that to build whatever other parts of the system I may be suspicious of. 
I know that portage will work out a good order of battle, but it assumes 
correctness in the tool chain: its job is to keep the system current. If 
there is a problem in the tools, it's going to cause problems when the rest 
of the system is built.

Quite a while ago I came across some advice to emerge gcc first, then glibc 
and libtool, then whatever else is needed (@system, @world etc). I've been 
doing that, but it does seem a bit minimal. That's why I thought of this 
sysbase idea.

You may wonder why I suspect my system at all. The reason is an intermittent 
series of apparently unrelated things going wrong. This box is only six 
months old and it contains some very recent hardware, and I'm not quite 
convinced that I have everything set up just right.

-- 
Rgds
Peter

[gentoo-user] Re: emerge @system

[Martin Vaeth]

Peter Humphrey  wrote:
>
> Would it be sensible to use the 44 packages in that @system as a new
> set @sysbase on the main system, or would I miss something important?

Actually, this set is even _larger_ than the @system set which
I got from combining both profiles

  default/linux/amd64/13.0/desktop
  targets/systemd

The @system set from this profile contains only 41 packages,
your additional 3 packages being

  sys-apps/baselayout
  sys-apps/findutils
  sys-devel/patch

Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Alarig Le Lay]

On Mon Aug 29 17:51:19 2016, Grant wrote:
> So I'm done with NTFS forever.  Will ext2 somehow allow me to use the
> USB stick across Gentoo systems without permission/ownership problems?

I always use pmount for USB and other flash devices to have it
mounted with my user permissions at all times.
Anyway, I don’t recommend you to use a journalised filesystem on a USB
stick, as it liable to write wearing. You will deteriorate it
prematurely.

-- 
alarig

Re: [gentoo-user] Re: What's happened to gentoo-sources?

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 08:34:55 +0200, Kai Krakow wrote:

> Surprise surprise, 4.7 has this (still not fully fixed) oom-killer bug.
> When I'm running virtual machines, it still kicks in. I wanted to stay
> on 4.6.x until 4.8 is released, and only then switch to 4.7. Now I was
> forced early (I'm using btrfs), and was instantly punished by doing so:

No one forced you to do anything. You 4.6 kernel was still in boot, your
4.6 sources were still installed. The ebuild was only removed fro the
portage tree, nothing was uninstalled from your system unless you did it.
Even the ebuild was still on your computer in /var/db/pkg.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

The cow is nothing but a machine which makes grass fit for us people to
eat.


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Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Neil Bothwick]

On Mon, 29 Aug 2016 17:51:19 -0700, Grant wrote:

> # ddrescue -d -r3 /dev/sdb usb.img usb.log
> [...]
> Ah, I got it, I just needed to specify the offset when mounting.

Tht's because you ran ddrescue on the whole stick and not the partition
containing the filesystem.

> Thank you so much everyone.  Many hours of work went into the file I
> just recovered.
> 
> So I'm done with NTFS forever.  Will ext2 somehow allow me to use the
> USB stick across Gentoo systems without permission/ownership problems?

That depends on whether you use the same UID on each system. If not,
mounting with umask=0 will make everything world writeable.


-- 
Neil Bothwick

Windows95:  n.  32 bit extensions and a graphical
shell for a 16 bit patch to an 8 bit operating system originally coded
for a 4 bit microprocessor, written by a 2 bit company, that can't stand
1 bit of competition.


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Re: [gentoo-user] USB crucial file recovery

[Neil Bothwick]

On Tue, 30 Aug 2016 06:46:54 +0100, Mick wrote:

> > So I'm done with NTFS forever.  Will ext2 somehow allow me to use the
> > USB stick across Gentoo systems without permission/ownership problems?
> > 
> > - Grant  
> 
> ext2 will work, but you'll have to mount it or chmod -R 0777, or only
> root will be able to access it.

That's not true. Whoever owns the files and directories will be able to
access then, even if root mounted the stick, just like a hard drive. If
you have the same UID on all your systems, chown -R
youruser: /mount/point will make everything available on all systems.

-- 
Neil Bothwick

As long as you do not move you can still choose any direction.


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[gentoo-user] Re: What's happened to gentoo-sources?

[Kai Krakow]

Am Sun, 21 Aug 2016 07:28:17 -0400
schrieb Rich Freeman :

> On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 6:20 AM, Peter Humphrey
>  wrote:
> > On Sunday 21 Aug 2016 05:55:06 Rich Freeman wrote:  
> >> On Sun, Aug 21, 2016 at 5:12 AM, Peter Humphrey
> >>   
> > wrote:  
>  [...]  
> >>
> >> No idea, but upstream is up to 4.4.19, and 4.6.7 (which is now
> >> EOL). So, those are pretty old versions.  I see 4.4.19 in the
> >> Gentoo repo, and 4.7.2 (which is probably where 4.6 users should
> >> be moving to).  
> >
> > Yes, this ~amd64 box is now at 4.7.2, but I have an amd64 and two
> > x86 systems and they both want to downgrade to 4.1.15-r1, which eix
> > shows as the latest stable version.
> >
> > I thought 4.4.6 and 4.6.4 were both pretty stable; was I wrong?
> >  
> 
> I'm sure they both work.  However, upstream has released numerous
> fixes since 4.4.6, and they will not be releasing security/bug/etc
> fixes for 4.6.x.
> 
> As long as there are no critical issues there is no issue with not
> being completely up-to-date with the kernel's stable releases, and I'm
> sure the Gentoo kernel team is tracking these sorts of issues.
> However, it isn't a surprise that they dropped 4.6.  If they
> downgraded 4.1 I suspect that was a mistake somewhere along the ways -
> I could see them upgrading it to something more recent.
> 
> And there is nothing wrong with having some internal QA on kernel
> releases.  4.1 had a nasty memory leak a release or two ago that was
> killing my system after only an hour or two uptime.  They took over a
> week to stabilize the fix as well (though a patch was out fairly
> quickly).  So, I'm not in nearly the rush to update kernels as I used
> to be (granted, unless you read all the lists it is easy to miss this
> sort of thing).

Surprise surprise, 4.7 has this (still not fully fixed) oom-killer bug.
When I'm running virtual machines, it still kicks in. I wanted to stay
on 4.6.x until 4.8 is released, and only then switch to 4.7. Now I was
forced early (I'm using btrfs), and was instantly punished by doing so:

The bfq patches I used were unstable (IO ops froze during boot, I was
forced to hard-reset the system) and as a consequence btrfs eventually
broke down a few hours later after the kernel booted without using bfq.

I had to restore from backup. Gentoo could have simply masked 4.6.x
with a masking message instead of removing it completely without
warning. I'm now using deadline instead of bfq, and I'm not using cfq
because it is everything else but running an interactive system
regarding IO: have some more than normal background IO and desktop
becomes unusable, audio and video apps starts skipping, games start
freezing up to a minute.

I'm now on 4.7.2 and I'm not happy due to the oom-killer mess. And
going back to 4.4 or even 4.1 is probably an unrealistic option when
using btrfs - at least I don't want to test it.

> I really wish the kernel had separate
> announce/discussion/patch lists.  It is really annoying that there is
> no way to get official notices up upstream updates without subscribing
> to lkml and such.  Is Linux the only FOSS project that has never heard
> of -announce lists?
> 
> I ended up bailing on gentoo-sources all the same.  Not that there was
> really anything wrong with it, but since I'm running btrfs and they've
> had a history of nasty regressions that tend to show up MONTHS later
> I've been a lot more picky about my kernel updates.  I'm currently
> tracking 4.1.  I might think about moving to 4.4 in a little while.  I
> tend to stay on the next-to-most-recent longterm not long after a new
> longterm is announced.  That tends to give them enough time to work
> out the bugs.  Plus, I spend a lot less time playing with
> configuration options this way (they don't change within a minor
> version).

This is why I wanted to stay major version behind currently stable -
I'm using btrfs, too. And history shows that especially 4.x.{0,1} may
introduce some nasty bugs if you are using edge technology like btrfs.

As I said, I'm not happy with this situation currently but I arranged
to live with it for the time being.

With btrfs gaining no must-have features lately, I'm considering to
stay with stable gentoo-sources when it switches to the unstable
version I'm currently using - which might be 4.7 or 4.8, I'm not sure.
I don't trust 4.7 currently, so I hope it will be 4.8.

-- 
Regards,
Kai

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