Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[Kevin Cozens]

?ukasz Czerwin'ski wrote:
> Maybe just a good documentation for GIMP source is needed? Once I tried to
> patch TinyScheme interpreter to make it work faster. In files I was working
> on was almost no comments.

TinyScheme is another project with little to no documentation. I would be 
interested to hear about your work on TinyScheme and what documentation 
would have helped you. Feel free to e-mail me privately or send a message to 
the tinyscheme-issues mailing list (on SourceForge). Just remove 
[Gimp-developer] from the subject line.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Dropping Scheme with gimp 2.8?

[Kevin Cozens]

saulgo...@flashingtwelve.brickfilms.com wrote:
> I'd like to apologize to the list. I had responded to Kevin off-list 
> because most of my questions were specific to the upstream TinyScheme 
> project and had only peripheral impact to Script-fu development.

That's partly my fault. The references to Script-Fu made me unsure whether 
the e-mail was only about TinyScheme or was also about Script-Fu. By the 
time I went to reply, I had already removed the part of your message saying 
you were mailing me off-list. With the way the list is configured, if I see 
[Gimp-developer] in the subject line I automatically send the reply to the list.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[Malix0]

Hi,

why don't put those instractions on the site? Can be a good start point.

Massimo


Il 28/01/2011 19.20, Jernej Simončič ha scritto:
> On Friday, January 28, 2011, 19:08:43, Rob Antonishen wrote:
>
>> I'd just settle for good step by step instruction on getting a windows
>> cross compile working.
> I posted the instructions to the list some time ago:
> 
>
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[gg]

On 01/28/11 11:22, Patrick Horgan wrote:
> * Shouldn't we standardize on a common development IDE (like Eclipse)?
>   If I am missing something in that area . . . let me know.

I think the only thing you're missing is that there is no need for "we" 
to standardise. If you want to use an IDE that does not really affect 
how others work.

I did manage to import gimp as a project into kdevelop at one stage, 
though later I could repeat the excersize and since I was then less 
active in coding gimp I did not spend time trying to fix it.

/gg/
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[Jernej Simončič]

On Friday, January 28, 2011, 19:08:43, Rob Antonishen wrote:

> I'd just settle for good step by step instruction on getting a windows
> cross compile working.

I posted the instructions to the list some time ago:


-- 
< Jernej Simončič ><><><><>< http://eternallybored.org/ >

Never play Poker with a player named Doc or Ace.
   -- Stein's Law of Cards

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[Alexia Death]

2011/1/28 Łukasz Czerwiński :
> I'd like to write a little bit on some of the topics.
> Q&A
> I think that for a start a Wiki with Q&A edited by everyone could be a good
> solution. If it gets too complicated, it can be split in sections, pages,
> categories and so on.
Such a wiki has been started. Its hosted by me at
http://gimp-wiki.who.ee and has been devised as unformal developer
space. What it lacks is contributors. Joining easy. A request to me
with desired wiki name and email and that's it. If you want to
maintain the developer FAQ, please step up.


> IDE
The wiki pointed out above already contains a howto for netbeans.
Netbeans is the only ide Ive gotten to actually code-complete for me
and allows me to navigate project in the manner I like. And before
netbeans Ive used pretty much anything:P

> Tutor / supervisor (an experienced developer)
> It's a good idea to choose one or two developers responsible for the whole
> "Newbie Developers Boot Camp".
We currently have exactly 2 active developers, me and mitch. And we do
try to help out noobs as much as we can at #gimp. This is where the
"noob bootcamp" happened at least for me. And when I joined #gimp for
the first time with a bug on my mind my experience with C was very
much limited. It has taken over 4 years to get into the codebase and
develop a clue and I still have a long way to go.

> From time to time I can see emails "Hey, I'd like to help you, but don't
> know where to start". Some people will get this knowledge on their own (or
> will try to get it from IRC channels), but some won't and aren't brave
> enough to spam all developers on a Gimp list with his/her newbie questions.
People who do this "Hi, im bored, give me something to hack" usually
lack the commitment it takes to get into a large code base like GIMP.
People who stick around and evolve into developers come to us with an
issue or a plan. something they want to fix. And then they read the
code and slowly get good enough. Thats the only way I know, that
works. Have an idea what you want to change and then do it by asking
questions. We like sensible questions. In fact, not asking questions
is IMHO a good reason to flunk a student at GSoC mid-term :P If you
want answers, join IRC. And stay connected long enough to answer. the
last guy who did that(IRC name Acumen) had so bad connection that in
the 10 minutes it took for me to see the question his link had already
dropped and I had nobody to answer.

--
--Alexia

PS. Sorry for spam  Łukasz, to was meant for the list.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[Rob Antonishen]

I'd just settle for good step by step instruction on getting a windows
cross compile working.

I've had no problem getting from git and compiling for Ububtu in a
Ubuntu VM, but whenever I ask how to set up the tools for windows
cross-compile I get hand-waving and "oh just redefine your compiler
environment variables" but have never had luck.

A few people have posted that they'll put up steps, but Ive not seen
anything, yet :(

(Still hoping though)

-Rob A>
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[Ρυακιωτάκης Αντώνης]

On 28 January 2011 17:58, Michael J. Hammel 
wrote:
>
> On Fri, 2011-01-28 at 08:39 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
> > Hmm I don't understand your reasoning. So you rather waste time manually
> > refactoring Java code than using Eclipse' excellent integrated
> > reafactoring features?
>
> Yes, though your evaluation of "excellent" could be argued as
> subjective.  From my perspective, it's a better waste of time than
> wondering though the plethora of useless features of most IDEs.  The
> best Unix developer I ever met (Ken Witte, Dell Computer) bounced around
> code 10 times faster than I've ever seen anyone with an IDE.
>
> Any tool will do if you know how to use it.  It's what you do with it
> that's important.  That's what I mean by "don't get bogged down by the
> tools".
>

You mean he could compile and edit different with the press of a single
button instead of going to console typing make, shifting editors around etc?
I use IDE's too and I find them extremely helpful. Using an IDE where
everything is accesible from a single program does not seem
counterproductive to me. Now if people like to do it the hard way, it's up
to them, but trying to force your way to others, because you think it makes
you...I don't know, a better programmer(which obviously isn't the case, this
guy you mention would FLY if he used an IDE)?It makes me think of an elitist
attitude that frankly, is not compatible with me. 'If you can't do it the
hard way you're not good enough to be bothered with'.
 Don't forget that most people do development in their free time and having
to learn all these tools just to do something they are already good
at(coding) is very annoying. That -is- getting bogged down by the tools.
Having people telling them that they are not good enough if they can't do
it, is even more annoying.
Personally I'm still struggling with git right now and it would be great if
I didn't have to surf around for information/tutorials. I have spent a
couple of hours trying out things that could have been spent coding. Not
everyone has this kind of patience I'm afraid..Take Blender for example. In
their development pages they have extremely clear, newbie-oriented
instructions on how to download the repository, compile on a
platform-by-platform basis etc. Noone there said to people that the best
programmers around know how to use svn and and we are not going to bother
with you.
It's marketing I'm afraid(because I don't like marketing): make it easy for
people to come and they'll come.

Lucasz, +1 for everything you've written!
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[Michael J. Hammel]

On Fri, 2011-01-28 at 08:39 +0100, Martin Nordholts wrote:
> Hmm I don't understand your reasoning. So you rather waste time manually 
> refactoring Java code than using Eclipse' excellent integrated 
> reafactoring features?

Yes, though your evaluation of "excellent" could be argued as
subjective.  From my perspective, it's a better waste of time than
wondering though the plethora of useless features of most IDEs.  The
best Unix developer I ever met (Ken Witte, Dell Computer) bounced around
code 10 times faster than I've ever seen anyone with an IDE.

Any tool will do if you know how to use it.  It's what you do with it
that's important.  That's what I mean by "don't get bogged down by the
tools".

-- 
Michael J. HammelPrincipal Software Engineer
mjham...@graphics-muse.org   http://graphics-muse.org
--
Pessimism:  Every dark cloud has a silver lining, but lightning kills
hundreds of people each year who are trying to find it.

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[Łukasz Czerwiński]

I'd like to write a little bit on some of the topics.

*Q&A*
*
*
As a beginner developer, I'd like to know the place where answers to all my
"stupid" questions are answered. In one place.
E.g.:

   - How to commit to git tree?
   - What's the best way to submit a patch? When I asked this question on
   this list, I got several different answers - post to mailing list, add new
   bug and post a patch, do both, commit to git tree. Of course some of
   responders wrote that previous responders are wrong and it should be done in
   other way and they do it so... and so on.
   - How to download and compile the source without mixing it with "normal"
   Gimp installation?
   - Who is planning Gimp's development?
   - How do I know what should be done in Gimp?
   - What are planned deadlines for next edititons of Gimp? Are there any?
   - an many many many other.

I think that for a start a Wiki with Q&A edited by everyone could be a good
solution. If it gets too complicated, it can be split in sections, pages,
categories and so on.


*Scripts*

I think that a good idea is also to include in such Wiki scripts for
automated downloading sources and dependencies, updating git tree etc. Maybe
not one official script, but several alternatives - each of you writing
about his own script says that it does something different than others'. I
imagine that such a page with scripts could look similar to a Wiki page with
scripts to compile your own PHP source on Dreamhost:
http://wiki.dreamhost.com/Installing_PHP5. There is one "Main PHP 5 install
script "
- just for a newbie, but also several alternative scripts.


*IDE*
*
*
Beginner developers that aren't independent and need some support from more
experienced developers probably aren't at all used to working on an open
source projects, reading through thousands of lines of new code, hundreds of
files and directories. Therefore all their experience is working on some
projects in Eclipse or other IDEs. I'm one a such person :) And although I
tried to use kate, gedit and vim to edit code, it would be much easier for
me to setup and use an Eclipse project. If some of you use IDEs, couldn't
you just write on the Wiki how to setup a project in a few easy steps? Some
of you will write about Eclipse, some about Qt Creator, maybe NetBeans and
other.

*
*
*Tutor / supervisor* (an experienced developer)

It's a good idea to choose one or two developers responsible for the whole
"Newbie Developers Boot Camp". Of course the work on Q&A, submitting
scripts, guides for IDEs and maybe some other tips should be done by many
developers, but someone should supervise it and make sure that these guides
are really helpful for people.


>From time to time I can see emails "Hey, I'd like to help you, but don't
know where to start". Some people will get this knowledge on their own (or
will try to get it from IRC channels), but some won't and aren't brave
enough to spam all developers on a Gimp list with his/her newbie questions.

Łukasz Czerwiński
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[Patrick Horgan]

  
  
On 01/27/2011 03:56 PM, Stephen Greenwalt wrote:
Boot Camp . . . good idea.  Docs . . . good idea.
  
  
  Let the newbie's like me (coming out of boot camp) write some
of the Docs.
  
  
  Presently I have everything compiled and running under
Ubuntu, and I am just reviewing the code to get some sort of
context.
  
  
  It is huge.  Incredible, actually.  Who wrote all of this?
 Wow.
  
  
  A few comments:
  
  
  * It seems to work best to put the entire project (all
source, and all build product) under a project folder in the
Home directory.

For me, not at all.  I put the gimp trunk, the babl trunk, and the
gegl trunk under /usr/local and they install into /usr/local/lib,
/usr/local/include, and /usr/local/bin.  Since I have /usr/local/bin
in my path first they're found first.  I have my ld.so.conf.d
contain a file that puts /usr/local/lib into the ld.so
configuration.

  * If possible, that should include a copy of any
external dependencies . . . with environment variables (etc)
adjusted accordingly
  * The project ought to be able to exist in a "bubble"
. . . so as to avoid confusion . . . regarding copies of
dependencies that might exist in the OS.

For me that bubble, is /usr/local

  * Multiple different project versions ought to be able to
exist on the same machine without stepping over each other.

I just use the trunk.

  
  
  Note: I wrote a minimal bash script that duplicates
(automates) the steps I took to get to the present state.  Maybe
we could expand on that idea.

I just pull the sources down from git, configure and make babl,
configure and make gegl, configure and make gimp.  All easy and
automatic.  No script needed.

  
  
  * If we do it right, compiling for Linux vs. Windows vs. OSx
ought require no more than the flip of a switch.  The Blender
folks, and others, are moving in that direction.
  * Shouldn't we standardize on a common development IDE (like
Eclipse)?  If I am missing something in that area . . . let me
know.

I, and a lot of other geeks like me don't use IDEs.

Patrick

  

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Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[Alexandre Prokoudine]

On 1/28/11, Kevin Cozens wrote:
> Eric Grivel wrote:
>> Which is where my thought of a "boot camp" came in. What if there was a
>> group of potential new developers all struggling with the same learning
>> curve? Wouldn't it be great if an experienced Gimp developer could lead
>> the whole group through a series of exercises, designed to gain
>> experience and understanding of the Gimp and Gegl internals.
>
> The new people getting an education on GIMP from some sort of "boot camp" or
> Q&A with the developers should write down the information they learn in a
> public document.

Exactly. Write down the question, write down the answers. When the
mass of 'write-downs" reaches a particular point, all the notes can be
transformed into docs for beginners.

Alexandre Prokoudine
http://libregraphicsworld.org
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Developer Boot Camp?

[Michael Schumacher]

> Von: Stephen Greenwalt 

> * It seems to work best to put the entire project (all source, and all
> build product) under a project folder in the Home directory.
> * If possible, that should include a *copy *of any external 
> dependencies with environment variables (etc) adjusted accordingly
> * The project ought to be able to exist in a "*bubble*" . . . so as to
> avoid confusion . . . regarding copies of dependencies that might exist
> in the OS.
> * Multiple different project versions ought to be able to exist on the
> same machine without stepping over each other.

Martin has covered that in 
http://www.chromecode.com/2009/12/best-way-to-keep-up-with-gimp-from-git_26.html

That's rather easy to follow, shouldn't take more take more than an hour*, even 
when running into each problem that's commonly encountered on a default Ubuntu 
install (i.e. no compilers, no developer files, ...) deliberately.

*assuming a broadband connection and something around a 2GHz system, otherwise 
add some buffer for download and compile times

> * If we do it right, compiling for Linux vs. Windows vs. OSx ought 
> require no more than the flip of a switch.

If you've got a build environment set up, it builds with the exact same 
commands.

> * Shouldn't we standardize on a common development IDE (like Eclipse)?  

Shouldn't be necessary - if you make sure that the IDE doesn't interfere with 
the autotools build setup and/or introduces its own project files, then you may 
choose any IDE you like.


Regards,
Michael
-- 
GMX DSL Doppel-Flat ab 19,99 Euro/mtl.! Jetzt mit 
gratis Handy-Flat! http://portal.gmx.net/de/go/dsl
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