Re: Apple has no Delete Key [Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining]
On Sun, 14 Sep 2003, Daniel Egger wrote: > Am Sam, 2003-09-13 um 23.30 schrieb Marco Wessel: > > > It is true that the Apple keyboards that used to come with the iMacs, B/W > > G3s and G4s don't have a del key. However, this keyboard has long since > > been replaced with the full-sized keyboard, which does have the key. > > Just curious, where is it on the later keyboards? Same place as ever. Right under ins/help, next to end. > > > As does every older mac keyboard in existence, save the PowerBook keyboards. > > None of the notebooks have it which are oddly enough quite common to > find at artists. I don't know about the PC notebooks, but the powerbooks don't have one. Of course their keyboard is smaller than the iMac one, and the key is rarely used on macs. So this is understandable. > > > Simply put, most people should have the key. > > Talking about all users sure, with Mac users I'd be careful with this > claim. Most pro users will have replaced their keyboards with the larger keyboard. The larger part of the non-powerbook folks will have it. Anyway, I recall forward delete being shift-backspace in macos on those keyboard, and I even recall using that. Oddly, when I just tried it, it didn't work. I'm guessing it's an option somewhere. Marco ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: Apple has no Delete Key [Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining]
Daniel Egger wrote: Am Sam, 2003-09-13 um 22.38 schrieb Alan Horkan: Delete is such a particularly good and obvious keybinding for Deleting things Actually I believe that having both a backspace and a delete key is confusing in the original wordprocessing meaning; why would one want to delete a character following the cursor? Personally I've been living without one for years now and I'm not missing it except when some UI designers think that the delete key is more straight forward than the backspace key and unfortunately mapped some often used function to it like deleting mail slowly i learn how to use the delete key. i would not miss it. typewriters had only a backspace key. many a fine document has been typed without one. carol ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: Apple has no Delete Key [Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining]
Am Sam, 2003-09-13 um 22.38 schrieb Alan Horkan: > Delete is such a particularly good and obvious keybinding for Deleting > things Actually I believe that having both a backspace and a delete key is confusing in the original wordprocessing meaning; why would one want to delete a character following the cursor? Personally I've been living without one for years now and I'm not missing it except when some UI designers think that the delete key is more straight forward than the backspace key and unfortunately mapped some often used function to it like deleting mail -- Servus, Daniel signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: Apple has no Delete Key [Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining]
Am Sam, 2003-09-13 um 23.30 schrieb Marco Wessel: > It is true that the Apple keyboards that used to come with the iMacs, B/W > G3s and G4s don't have a del key. However, this keyboard has long since > been replaced with the full-sized keyboard, which does have the key. Just curious, where is it on the later keyboards? > As does every older mac keyboard in existence, save the PowerBook keyboards. None of the notebooks have it which are oddly enough quite common to find at artists. > Simply put, most people should have the key. Talking about all users sure, with Mac users I'd be careful with this claim. -- Servus, Daniel signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: Apple has no Delete Key [Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining]
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, Marco Wessel wrote: > It is true that the Apple keyboards that used to come with the iMacs, B/W > G3s and G4s don't have a del key. However, this keyboard has long since > been replaced with the full-sized keyboard, which does have the key. As > does every older mac keyboard in existence, save the PowerBook keyboards. > > Simply put, most people should have the key. However, how about using > backspace, which IMO is more intuitive for deleting things. (Though it > could be used by something else, I'm not entirely sure.) Backspace is used to clear a dynamic a dynamic menu keybinding. (Not to rule out the possibility of that specific context being made properly isolated to allow use of Backspace else where). sincerely Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: Apple has no Delete Key [Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining]
On Sat, 13 Sep 2003, Alan Horkan wrote: > > > It would be nice to have more keys available to the tools. I'd love > > > to get the Del-Key working for deletion of nodes in the path tool... > > > > The del key is a bad choice. Quite a few GIMP users have Apple machines > > which don't have a del key. > > I think Apple is exceptional in that regard and didn't they put some of > the keys back in the later iMac designs? > > Delete is such a particularly good and obvious keybinding for Deleting > things with on other platforms couldn't we use delete as well as another > keybinding for the benifit of Mac users? > It is true that the Apple keyboards that used to come with the iMacs, B/W G3s and G4s don't have a del key. However, this keyboard has long since been replaced with the full-sized keyboard, which does have the key. As does every older mac keyboard in existence, save the PowerBook keyboards. Simply put, most people should have the key. However, how about using backspace, which IMO is more intuitive for deleting things. (Though it could be used by something else, I'm not entirely sure.) Marco ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Apple has no Delete Key [Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining]
On Fri, 12 Sep 2003, Daniel Egger wrote: > Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 12:20:13 +0200 > From: Daniel Egger <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: Gimp Developer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining > > Am Fre, 2003-09-12 um 11.25 schrieb Simon Budig: > > > It would be nice to have more keys available to the tools. I'd love > > to get the Del-Key working for deletion of nodes in the path tool... > > The del key is a bad choice. Quite a few GIMP users have Apple machines > which don't have a del key. I think Apple is exceptional in that regard and didn't they put some of the keys back in the later iMac designs? Delete is such a particularly good and obvious keybinding for Deleting things with on other platforms couldn't we use delete as well as another keybinding for the benifit of Mac users? - Alan H. ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
Am Fre, 2003-09-12 um 11.25 schrieb Simon Budig: > It would be nice to have more keys available to the tools. I'd love > to get the Del-Key working for deletion of nodes in the path tool... The del key is a bad choice. Quite a few GIMP users have Apple machines which don't have a del key. -- Servus, Daniel signature.asc Description: Dies ist ein digital signierter Nachrichtenteil
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
From: Jakub Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Simon Budig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> CC: Gimp Developer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining Date: Fri, 12 Sep 2003 19:22:54 +0200 MIME-Version: 1.0 On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 11:25, Simon Budig wrote: > Tor Lillqvist ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Or, the arrow keys could be used to finetune the "pressure" and "tilt" > > while moving the mouse. > > Just wanted to point out that since gimpcon it is possible to change > the opacity with the cursor keys for all Paint tools. Which I greatly appreciate and thank you for that. But, you know.. It's kinda awkward for a right-hander to reach for the cursor keys ;) Ultimately a http://www.eviloverlord.net/powermate.html";>powermate control would be best. oooh, wow, /me wants one! that does sounds like a great control device for use in GIMP though, how likely would support be? Phil. cheers -- Jakub Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer _ Use MSN Messenger to send music and pics to your friends http://www.msn.co.uk/messenger ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
On Fri, 2003-09-12 at 11:25, Simon Budig wrote: > Tor Lillqvist ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > > Or, the arrow keys could be used to finetune the "pressure" and "tilt" > > while moving the mouse. > > Just wanted to point out that since gimpcon it is possible to change > the opacity with the cursor keys for all Paint tools. Which I greatly appreciate and thank you for that. But, you know.. It's kinda awkward for a right-hander to reach for the cursor keys ;) Ultimately a http://www.eviloverlord.net/powermate.html";>powermate control would be best. cheers -- Jakub Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
tor:
you reminded me of a feature which would GREATLY improve the functionality of
gimp: moving through the active palette's colors with shortcut keys.
i'll create a patch for it at the first opportunity (after learning how to add
menu items). its such a uber-useful and simple feature i'm surprised it
wasn't implemented LNG ago.
the doc i've written:
in 'navigation' submenu:
'[' ']' prev/next color in palette
'{' '}' prev/next gradient sample *
',' '.' prev/next brush
'<' '>' prev/next pattern
{ other prev/next items here }
* gradient sample number should be customizable. and/or movement along
gradient should
have acceleration like spinbuttons, but i don't know if that's doable.
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Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
> While talking about UI ideas, how about keyboard-mouse chording? > Wild idea: > > Banging on the spacebar with varying frequencey while moving a drawing > tool with the mouse would be similar to varying the pressure if you > had a pressure-sensitive pen. Each press on the spacebar would > temporarily increase the "pressure", which would then slowly decay. > > Or, the arrow keys could be used to finetune the "pressure" and "tilt" > while moving the mouse. > > Some other keys could be used to modulate the colour, opacity, > whatnot. > > I'm sure we could brainstorm more similar stuff. Has any program used > an UI like this? Does it sound like a good or just goofy idea? The PalmWac application - an application that turns a PalmOS PDA into a "tablet" that can be used with wacom drivers - uses the PDAs hardware keys to adjust pressure. Michael -- The GIMP (deutsch): http://www.gimp.de COMPUTERBILD 15/03: Premium-e-mail-Dienste im Test -- 1. GMX TopMail - Platz 1 und Testsieger! 2. GMX ProMail - Platz 2 und Preis-Qualitätssieger! 3. Arcor - 4. web.de - 5. T-Online - 6. freenet.de - 7. daybyday - 8. e-Post ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
Tor Lillqvist ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: > Or, the arrow keys could be used to finetune the "pressure" and "tilt" > while moving the mouse. Just wanted to point out that since gimpcon it is possible to change the opacity with the cursor keys for all Paint tools. It would be nice to have more keys available to the tools. I'd love to get the Del-Key working for deletion of nodes in the path tool... Bye, Simon -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.home.unix-ag.org/simon/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
While talking about UI ideas, how about keyboard-mouse chording? Currently, while painting with the mouse (or tablet pen), the other hand is presumably idle. Would it be a good idea to be able to use keyboard keys to modify the painting action? I am thinking of some fresh ways to interact using both keybaord and mouse simultaneously. Of course, most keyboard keys are used for shortcuts, so it might be a bit confusing if those keys had a different meaning while drawing with the mouse. But on the other hand, people hardly would do it by mistake? Wild idea: Banging on the spacebar with varying frequencey while moving a drawing tool with the mouse would be similar to varying the pressure if you had a pressure-sensitive pen. Each press on the spacebar would temporarily increase the "pressure", which would then slowly decay. Or, the arrow keys could be used to finetune the "pressure" and "tilt" while moving the mouse. Some other keys could be used to modulate the colour, opacity, whatnot. I'm sure we could brainstorm more similar stuff. Has any program used an UI like this? Does it sound like a good or just goofy idea? --tml ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
4.) The old eraser should be replaced with an 'Erase' - mode for the paint tools (Brush, Pen, Airbrush, Ink, Text, Fill), to be able to use e.g. the Airbrush as Eraser, this would make the interface less cluttered and also improves the flexibility. Same goes for the 'Smudge', 'Blur', 'Paint using Patterns' 'Sharpen' tools; Ok, here is how Deluxe Paint would deal with this: painting with right mouse button instead of the left would use the Background color, instead of foreground. In the GIMP, while it is not possible to make such a ssue to the right mouse button, there could, and IMO should, be a fast keystroke (mnemonic?) to swap BG and FG. It is great for a couple of fancy effects to be able to quicly switch between fg/bg without moving the cursor. That's not what I meant, I meant the eraser, not the bg color. But you are right on the keystroke, this would be a great addition. As for the eraser tool, it is currently the only of the paint tools that paints to transparency without the need to paint on the mask. Besides, the behavior of the "ctrl" key in it comes close, if one is paiting on the background, of the color swapping feature. And this is exactly the problem, only the eraser tool paints to transparency. And it should be possible to use ANY paint tool to do this. It could be as simple as reversing the alpha value for this tool... Alpha/ erase != bg color (at least if you use more than one layer). Have you entered this issue as a enhancement bug to Gimp bugzilla? If not would you do it or I could do it, because IMHO it would be a really good thing to have. I think it's pretty orthogonal to having alpha value in color picker and selector, because it could simply paint to full transparency (based on the properties of the brush and kind of a paint tool). In case of images without alpha channel it would simply paint to background color. Tom Mraz ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
Willie, Excellent! Lets hope the right folks are paying attention. Seems like a wonderful idea. It's both more functional *and* more attractive. I've always felt the stock Gimp interface was a little too weird/clumsy in it's layout. Cheers, Bowie Bowie J. Poag <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> - Original Message - From: "Willie Sippel" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "Alan Horkan" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Cc: <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, September 03, 2003 11:18 AM Subject: Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining > I already explained most of my suggestions to Joao. > I did another design, available at > http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline2.png > > On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 18:17, Alan Horkan wrote: > > On 1 Sep 2003, Willie Sippel wrote: > > > > > Date: 01 Sep 2003 20:09:23 +0200 > > > From: Willie Sippel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > > Subject: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining > > > > > > Hi there. > > > > > > First post, so please go easy on me ;-). > > > > > > Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still > > > needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop clone - > > > > I really dont think GIMP looks at all like Photoshop although ... > > > > > and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, it's interface > > > is pretty clumsy and inefficient. > > > > ... I agree Photoshop is far from perfect either. > > > > > 1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce clutter: > > > Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color Picker; > > > > I also would love for the toolbox to be customizable > > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105764 > > I don't want a customizable toolbar, but some of these tools are already > modes for paint tools, and the other mentioned tools should be the same. > > > but comletely removing the buttons as you suggest without anyway to add > > them back will likely displease many different people depending on which > > features they happen to use, personally I would miss the Zoom button. > > > > It might also be worth considering better to do like Photoshop and > > Sodipodi and have button submenus, that when you click and hold you get > > more of the related items. > > Screenshot of Adobe Photoshop toolbox submenu > > http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~horkana/dev/gnome/gimp/screenshots/photoshop/Ad obePhotoshop-clicknhold.png > > shorter link to Photoshop screenshot > > http://tardis.linux.ie/1653/matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie > > > > I know Photoshop very well, but I don't like the submenus, as they are > wasting time (click, hold, wait, look for the right option, move mouse, > release...) - this is unnecessary. Look at my new design for another way > to deal with that issue, might be more useful than a 'click and hold' > menu, and also better than my first suggestion. > > > > 5.) The Color Picker should become available when you click the > > > foreground or background color in the main toolbar, and should set the > > > respective color (set foreground when you clicked the foreground color); > > > > This is already the case in GIMP 1.2, just double click on it. > > > > OK. What about the right or middle mouse button? Check my new mock-up, > I've changed this. > > > > 6.) Add 'Alpha' to the Color Picker; > > > > Consider carefully if the more user friendly term "Transparency" should be > > used. > > > > 'A rose, by any other name...' - granted, but well - it IS alpha. And > Gimp is not Tuxpaint. But I thought about this, and this one should > remain as it is today, 'opacity' on the tool settings. Changing the > current color sliders from HSVRGB to HSVRGBA would be sufficient. > > > > 8.) Remove the giant FG/ BG preview at the bottom of the 'Colors' > > > window to make the interface more compact; > > > > There is an option to hide the brush+pattern preview, an additional option > > to hide the colours widget might be an acceptable idea (but there is > > always the matter of getting some one to write the needed code). > > > 9.) The remaining buttons on the main toolbox should be reordered: > > > Brush | Pen | Airbrush | Ink | Text | Fill | Select | Transform | Create > > > paths | Measure tools > > > > care to explain your reasoning for this reordering? > > > > I changed this one, but I think it'
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
On Wed, 3 Sep 2003, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: > Let's check your ideias. > One thing, from reafdign your e-mail I guess you are using 1.2 GIMP > series. A lot of what you comment has changed to the 1.3 series. To be fair from his screenshot he is clearly using some version of 1.3 http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline2.png Sincerely Alan Horkan http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~horkana/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
> I already explained most of my suggestions to Joao. > I did another design, available at > http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline2.png that's REALLY nice looking, and I like it, not that my opinion counts for much :) Jon ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
Hi, "Joao S. O. Bueno" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > In the GIMP, while it is not possible to make such a ssue to the right > mouse button, there could, and IMO should, be a fast keystroke > (mnemonic?) to swap BG and FG. It is great for a couple of fancy > effects to be able to quicly switch between fg/bg without moving the > cursor. Swapping FG/BG is per default bound to X (has been in 1.2 already). This is indeed an essential keybinding. > Youa re late on this. It´s possible for one to dinamically assing hot > keys to anything on the GIMP menus. Just go for it...hover the cursor > over your menu option, and press the hotkey you wnat there. > This, IMO is what make the GIMP more dinamically than Photshop and > clones band, as I mentioned above. I am sorry but I don't think you cannot assign keybindings to the layer or paint mode menus. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 07:49, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: > In the GIMP, while it is not possible to make such a ssue to the right > mouse button, there could, and IMO should, be a fast keystroke > (mnemonic?) to swap BG and FG. It is great for a couple of fancy > effects to be able to quicly switch between fg/bg without moving the > cursor. For a long time this has been bound to the 'X' key. Can't live without it. Also 'D' for resetting the colors to default is handy. cheers -- Jakub Steiner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 07:49, Joao S. O. Bueno wrote: > Hi there, > > Well, A lot of things for a first post. > > Allow me to go for a first triage of your suggestions, so that the > men-in-the-power-to-do-it can focus their attention. > > First, allow e to present myself: I've joinned here about two to three > months ago, and so far an better in talking and suggesting than > contributing with the code or docs. > > But I could grasp, I think, a feeling of where the gimp is going,a nd > what people making it are after. > > Now, onto your suggestions: > > On Monday 01 September 2003 3:09 pm, Willie Sippel wrote: > > Hi there. > > > > First post, so please go easy on me ;-). > > Only reading througgh the end will tell Iif I managed to go easy. > > > > Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still > > needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop > > clone - and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, > > it's interface is pretty clumsy and inefficient. > > Funny...more oftenly people will come in and complain that it is _not_ > like photoshop. I however think that the GIMP is far less clumsy than > Photoshop/corel photopaint/Paint Shop Pro/Windows Paint and > friends,and OTOH no were near what Deluxe Paint has been in it's time > for free hand drawing. Might be more or less true, but this depends on what programs you compare Gimp to. I mostly used more professional applications like Aura, Quantel Paintbox and 5D Cyborg, and these applications are really workflow - optimised. If you compare Gimp to these tools, Gimp behaves much more like Photoshop... ;-) > > > So I thought about some interface improvements for Gimp, to make it > > look more distinguished, remove much of the clutter and unnecessary > > redundancy and improve the workflow: > > Let's check your ideias. > One thing, from reafdign your e-mail I guess you are using 1.2 GIMP > series. A lot of what you comment has changed to the 1.3 series. > Nope, 1.3.19. > > > > Gimp interface improvements: > > > > > > 1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce > > clutter: Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color > > Picker; > > Bad news in the "remove buttons" part. In the 1.3 series, actually, > more things have been added there, and his will not change. > > If you manage to make you point quite well, be aware that I simpathise > with the idea..and possibly...just possibly...gimp 2.2, or 3.0 can > have a completely customizable tool box. > Well, Dodge and Burn are already pretty redundant and therefore useless clutter, since these tools are also modes for the paint tools. They are much more flexible and usable as modes, 'cause you can airbrush the Burn - effect - it would be even more flexible and intuitive to do the same for Blur, Sharpen and Smudge, and remove the corresponding toolbox buttons. > > > > 2.) Remove buttons from the main menu and add the corresponding > > functions to a mode selector in the Tool Options: > > ok. Deluxe Paint would make this subselection by displaying a submenu > if the button on the main tooll palette would remain pressed for a > while. IMHO,, that would be better than a selection on the tool > options.. > It could be event better to split the toolbox in two segments, the upper segment contains the groups, the lower segment the corresponding tools. BTW, also I like DPaint, it should be our goal to improve, not mimic some other program... > > >(...) > > (*) This tool would be a great addition, and could even replace > > most other transform tools. > > 'Corner pin' is a standard tool in compositing software, it uses > > the current layer as a plane with four freely movable corners, and > > skews, rotates and scales the layer according to those corners. > > IMO, the perspective transformation does just that. Check t see if it > equivalent, and if it is not, just explain what is missing or > behaving differently. > You're right, sorry - must have missed this one. As I say, to much buttons... ;-) Would a realtime preview be doable - with a lower proxy, if necessary? > > 4.) The old eraser should be replaced with an 'Erase' - mode for > > the paint tools (Brush, Pen, Airbrush, Ink, Text, Fill), to be able > > to use e.g. the Airbrush as Eraser, this would make the interface > > less cluttered and also improves the flexibility. Same goes for the > > 'Smudge', 'Blur', 'Paint using Patterns' 'Sharpen' tools; > > Ok, here is how Deluxe Paint would deal with this: > painting with right mouse button instead of the left would use the > Background color, instead of foreground. > In the GIMP, while it is not possible to make such a ssue to the right > mouse button, there could, and IMO should, be a fast keystroke > (mnemonic?) to swap BG and FG. It is great for a couple of fancy > effects to be able to quicly switch between fg/bg without moving the > cursor. > That'
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
Hi, I would appreciate if you could try to keep this discussion going on both lists. Cross-posting may mean that a few people get the posts twice but since this topic is of interest to both lists, cross-posting seems appropriate. Sven ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
I already explained most of my suggestions to Joao. I did another design, available at http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline2.png On Wed, 2003-09-03 at 18:17, Alan Horkan wrote: > On 1 Sep 2003, Willie Sippel wrote: > > > Date: 01 Sep 2003 20:09:23 +0200 > > From: Willie Sippel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Subject: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining > > > > Hi there. > > > > First post, so please go easy on me ;-). > > > > Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still > > needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop clone - > > I really dont think GIMP looks at all like Photoshop although ... > > > and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, it's interface > > is pretty clumsy and inefficient. > > ... I agree Photoshop is far from perfect either. > > > 1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce clutter: > > Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color Picker; > > I also would love for the toolbox to be customizable > http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105764 I don't want a customizable toolbar, but some of these tools are already modes for paint tools, and the other mentioned tools should be the same. > but comletely removing the buttons as you suggest without anyway to add > them back will likely displease many different people depending on which > features they happen to use, personally I would miss the Zoom button. > > It might also be worth considering better to do like Photoshop and > Sodipodi and have button submenus, that when you click and hold you get > more of the related items. > Screenshot of Adobe Photoshop toolbox submenu > http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~horkana/dev/gnome/gimp/screenshots/photoshop/AdobePhotoshop-clicknhold.png > shorter link to Photoshop screenshot > http://tardis.linux.ie/1653/matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie > I know Photoshop very well, but I don't like the submenus, as they are wasting time (click, hold, wait, look for the right option, move mouse, release...) - this is unnecessary. Look at my new design for another way to deal with that issue, might be more useful than a 'click and hold' menu, and also better than my first suggestion. > > 5.) The Color Picker should become available when you click the > > foreground or background color in the main toolbar, and should set the > > respective color (set foreground when you clicked the foreground color); > > This is already the case in GIMP 1.2, just double click on it. > OK. What about the right or middle mouse button? Check my new mock-up, I've changed this. > > 6.) Add 'Alpha' to the Color Picker; > > Consider carefully if the more user friendly term "Transparency" should be > used. > 'A rose, by any other name...' - granted, but well - it IS alpha. And Gimp is not Tuxpaint. But I thought about this, and this one should remain as it is today, 'opacity' on the tool settings. Changing the current color sliders from HSVRGB to HSVRGBA would be sufficient. > > 8.) Remove the giant FG/ BG preview at the bottom of the 'Colors' > > window to make the interface more compact; > > There is an option to hide the brush+pattern preview, an additional option > to hide the colours widget might be an acceptable idea (but there is > always the matter of getting some one to write the needed code). > > 9.) The remaining buttons on the main toolbox should be reordered: > > Brush | Pen | Airbrush | Ink | Text | Fill | Select | Transform | Create > > paths | Measure tools > > care to explain your reasoning for this reordering? > I changed this one, but I think it's faster if the most common used tool is also the first button on the list. I think 'ordered by importance' is better as ordered random, like it seems today... > > 15.) Remove the brush and pattern preview from the main toolbox, because > > it clutters the toolbox - it's redundant, anyway, because there is > > allready a preview in the tool settings window. It might be even better > > to also remove the pattern preview from the tool settings and show the > > selected pattern on the color preview of the main toolbox; > > There is already a preference to remove it. > Toolbox, File, Preferences... > Interface, > [] Display Brush, Pattern and Gradient Indicators. > I must have missed this one. > > 16.) The color preview on the main toolbox should be redesigned: > > some paint programs have differnt designs, some even allow you to choose > which design you like best but I dont understand what is wrong with the &g
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
On 1 Sep 2003, Willie Sippel wrote: > Date: 01 Sep 2003 20:09:23 +0200 > From: Willie Sippel <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining > > Hi there. > > First post, so please go easy on me ;-). > > Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still > needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop clone - I really dont think GIMP looks at all like Photoshop although ... > and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, it's interface > is pretty clumsy and inefficient. ... I agree Photoshop is far from perfect either. > 1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce clutter: > Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color Picker; I also would love for the toolbox to be customizable http://bugzilla.gnome.org/show_bug.cgi?id=105764 but comletely removing the buttons as you suggest without anyway to add them back will likely displease many different people depending on which features they happen to use, personally I would miss the Zoom button. It might also be worth considering better to do like Photoshop and Sodipodi and have button submenus, that when you click and hold you get more of the related items. Screenshot of Adobe Photoshop toolbox submenu http://matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie/~horkana/dev/gnome/gimp/screenshots/photoshop/AdobePhotoshop-clicknhold.png shorter link to Photoshop screenshot http://tardis.linux.ie/1653/matrix.netsoc.tcd.ie > 5.) The Color Picker should become available when you click the > foreground or background color in the main toolbar, and should set the > respective color (set foreground when you clicked the foreground color); This is already the case in GIMP 1.2, just double click on it. > 6.) Add 'Alpha' to the Color Picker; Consider carefully if the more user friendly term "Transparency" should be used. > 8.) Remove the giant FG/ BG preview at the bottom of the 'Colors' > window to make the interface more compact; There is an option to hide the brush+pattern preview, an additional option to hide the colours widget might be an acceptable idea (but there is always the matter of getting some one to write the needed code). > 9.) The remaining buttons on the main toolbox should be reordered: > Brush | Pen | Airbrush | Ink | Text | Fill | Select | Transform | Create > paths | Measure tools care to explain your reasoning for this reordering? > 15.) Remove the brush and pattern preview from the main toolbox, because > it clutters the toolbox - it's redundant, anyway, because there is > allready a preview in the tool settings window. It might be even better > to also remove the pattern preview from the tool settings and show the > selected pattern on the color preview of the main toolbox; There is already a preference to remove it. Toolbox, File, Preferences... Interface, [] Display Brush, Pattern and Gradient Indicators. > 16.) The color preview on the main toolbox should be redesigned: some paint programs have differnt designs, some even allow you to choose which design you like best but I dont understand what is wrong with the current design, please explain why your suggestion is better. > Some other small suggestions, as well as many of the described > suggestions are on the mock-up, > http://www.zeitgeistmedia.net/gimp/gimpstreamline.png > > > Suggestions and comments are very welcome and appreciated. It is great that you took the time to thnk about how to improve the GIMP but keep in mind that you suggested a whole lot of changes that could take a long time to get done iff there is a developer interested in making the changes you suggest. Sincerely Alan Horkan http://advogato.org/person/AlanHorkan/ ___ Gimp-developer mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://lists.xcf.berkeley.edu/mailman/listinfo/gimp-developer
Re: [Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
Hi there, Well, A lot of things for a first post. Allow me to go for a first triage of your suggestions, so that the men-in-the-power-to-do-it can focus their attention. First, allow e to present myself: I've joinned here about two to three months ago, and so far an better in talking and suggesting than contributing with the code or docs. But I could grasp, I think, a feeling of where the gimp is going,a nd what people making it are after. Now, onto your suggestions: On Monday 01 September 2003 3:09 pm, Willie Sippel wrote: > Hi there. > > First post, so please go easy on me ;-). Only reading througgh the end will tell Iif I managed to go easy. > > Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still > needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop > clone - and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, > it's interface is pretty clumsy and inefficient. Funny...more oftenly people will come in and complain that it is _not_ like photoshop. I however think that the GIMP is far less clumsy than Photoshop/corel photopaint/Paint Shop Pro/Windows Paint and friends,and OTOH no were near what Deluxe Paint has been in it's time for free hand drawing. > So I thought about some interface improvements for Gimp, to make it > look more distinguished, remove much of the clutter and unnecessary > redundancy and improve the workflow: Let's check your ideias. One thing, from reafdign your e-mail I guess you are using 1.2 GIMP series. A lot of what you comment has changed to the 1.3 series. > > Gimp interface improvements: > > > 1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce > clutter: Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color > Picker; Bad news in the "remove buttons" part. In the 1.3 series, actually, more things have been added there, and his will not change. If you manage to make you point quite well, be aware that I simpathise with the idea..and possibly...just possibly...gimp 2.2, or 3.0 can have a completely customizable tool box. > > 2.) Remove buttons from the main menu and add the corresponding > functions to a mode selector in the Tool Options: ok. Deluxe Paint would make this subselection by displaying a submenu if the button on the main tooll palette would remain pressed for a while. IMHO,, that would be better than a selection on the tool options.. >(...) > (*) This tool would be a great addition, and could even replace > most other transform tools. > 'Corner pin' is a standard tool in compositing software, it uses > the current layer as a plane with four freely movable corners, and > skews, rotates and scales the layer according to those corners. IMO, the perspective transformation does just that. Check t see if it equivalent, and if it is not, just explain what is missing or behaving differently. > 4.) The old eraser should be replaced with an 'Erase' - mode for > the paint tools (Brush, Pen, Airbrush, Ink, Text, Fill), to be able > to use e.g. the Airbrush as Eraser, this would make the interface > less cluttered and also improves the flexibility. Same goes for the > 'Smudge', 'Blur', 'Paint using Patterns' 'Sharpen' tools; Ok, here is how Deluxe Paint would deal with this: painting with right mouse button instead of the left would use the Background color, instead of foreground. In the GIMP, while it is not possible to make such a ssue to the right mouse button, there could, and IMO should, be a fast keystroke (mnemonic?) to swap BG and FG. It is great for a couple of fancy effects to be able to quicly switch between fg/bg without moving the cursor. As for the eraser tool, it is currently the only of the paint tools that paints to transparency without the need to paint on the mask. Besides, the behavior of the "ctrl" key in it comes close, if one is paiting on the background, of the color swapping feature. > > 5.) The Color Picker should become available when you click the > foreground or background color in the main toolbar, and should set > the respective color (set foreground when you clicked the > foreground color); Well..since the color picker button is not going away any time soon anyway, ant given that a single click on the FG or BG clors on the main Tool Box are already conveniently assigned, I don see ths changing. And IMHO, this would make the application more difficult to use. If you need fast access to the color picker, you can assign a key stroke to it. In the 1.3 series holding CTRL in most (most? Paint Brush, Pencil and Draw in Ink) paint tools will bring you a temporary color picker, and that is dinamic enough for me. > > 6.) Add 'Alpha' to the Color Picker; The color picker actually does alpha...in the color pickler only mode, it does show the alpha of the clicked pixel. However this is an interesting feature request that can make it even in 1.3.20 : The dinamic color pciker, borught with Control should set the tool O
[Gimp-developer] Gimp interface streamlining
Hi there. First post, so please go easy on me ;-). Also Gimp always gets better and more powerful, the interface still needs a lot of work. It almost looks like yet another Photoshop clone - and even if Photoshop is some sort of de facto standard, it's interface is pretty clumsy and inefficient. So I thought about some interface improvements for Gimp, to make it look more distinguished, remove much of the clutter and unnecessary redundancy and improve the workflow: Gimp interface improvements: 1.) Remove unnecessary buttons from the main toolbox to reduce clutter: Smudge, Dodge or Burn, Blur or Sharpen, Erase, Zoom, Color Picker; 2.) Remove buttons from the main menu and add the corresponding functions to a mode selector in the Tool Options: new toolbox icon| includes function -- Transform | - Move layers & selections | - Crop or Resize | - Rotate Layer or selection | - Scale layer or selection | - Shear layer or selection | - Change perspective | - Flip layer or selection | - Corner pin (*) | Select | - Rectangular selection | - Elliptical selection | - Select shapes from image | - Select hand-drawn | - Select contiguous regions | - Select regions by color | Fill| - Fill with a color or pattern | - Fill with a color gradient (*) This tool would be a great addition, and could even replace most other transform tools. 'Corner pin' is a standard tool in compositing software, it uses the current layer as a plane with four freely movable corners, and skews, rotates and scales the layer according to those corners. 4.) The old eraser should be replaced with an 'Erase' - mode for the paint tools (Brush, Pen, Airbrush, Ink, Text, Fill), to be able to use e.g. the Airbrush as Eraser, this would make the interface less cluttered and also improves the flexibility. Same goes for the 'Smudge', 'Blur', 'Paint using Patterns' 'Sharpen' tools; 5.) The Color Picker should become available when you click the foreground or background color in the main toolbar, and should set the respective color (set foreground when you clicked the foreground color); 6.) Add 'Alpha' to the Color Picker; 7.) Assign hotkeys for the most used modes of the paint tools (e.g.: <1> = Paint, <2> = Erase, <3> = Behind...); 8.) Remove the giant FG/ BG preview at the bottom of the 'Colors' window to make the interface more compact; 9.) The remaining buttons on the main toolbox should be reordered: Brush | Pen | Airbrush | Ink | Text | Fill | Select | Transform | Create paths | Measure tools 10.) Add an 'Erase' - mode to the layer modes. If you use this mode, the layer becomes invisible and 'erases' (hides) only the layer behind according to the alpha channel of the 'Erase' layer. The 'Erase' layer should still be editable until you merge it down; 11.) Add an 'Undo' - mode to the paint tools, to allow the user to blend to the previous step using regular tools, e.g. you apply a filter like 'Solarize' and remove the effect from some parts of the image using the airbrush. Should also allow to undo paint ops, because it's not very confident to undo the whole last line if you traced a large image and there is one minor glitch for example. The undo state for paint ops should be set whenever the user changes the tool, tool setting or color. This mode doesn't have to be accessible using the 'Mode' dropdown in the tool settings, but it has to be available holding down a hotkey like spacebar or tab, and should revert to the previous mode on release; 12.) Add an image view mode, e.g. at the bottom of the image window, to switch between 'Show RGB', 'Show red channel', 'Show green channel', 'Show blue channel', 'Show alpha channel'; 13.) Remove the pressure mapping options from the tool settings and add it to the 'Tool state' window, to remove unnecessary options for users without a tablet; 14.) Add a pressure curve to the tool settings, to edit the pressure and suppress values on the fly; 15.) Remove the brush and pattern preview from the main toolbox, because it clutters the toolbox - it's redundant, anyway, because there is allready a preview in the tool settings window. It might be even better to also remove the pattern preview from the tool settings and show the selected pattern
